Just so people aren't caught unawares, it is very unlikely that I will have time to be the final editor on "What's New for 3.5" they way I was for 3.3 and 3.4. I've tried to encourage people to keep What's New up to date, but *someone* should make a final editing pass. Ideally they'd do at least the research Serhiy did last year on checking that there's a mention for all of the versionadded and versionchanged 3.5's in the docs. Even better would be to review the NEWS and/or commit history...but *that* is a really big job these days.... --David
On 6 July 2015 at 03:52, R. David Murray <rdmurray@bitdance.com> wrote:
Just so people aren't caught unawares, it is very unlikely that I will have time to be the final editor on "What's New for 3.5" they way I was for 3.3 and 3.4.
And thank you again for your work on those!
I've tried to encourage people to keep What's New up to date, but *someone* should make a final editing pass. Ideally they'd do at least the research Serhiy did last year on checking that there's a mention for all of the versionadded and versionchanged 3.5's in the docs. Even better would be to review the NEWS and/or commit history...but *that* is a really big job these days....
What would your rough estimate of the scope of work be? As you note, the amount of effort involved in doing a thorough job of that has expanded beyond what can reasonably be expected of volunteer contributors, so I'm wondering if it might make sense for the PSF to start offering a contract technical writing gig to finalise the What's New documentation for each new release. After all, the What's New doc is an essential component of communicating changes in recommended development practices to Python educators, so ensuring we do a good job with that can have a big multiplier effect on all the other work that goes into creating each new release. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 11:06:41 +1000, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6 July 2015 at 03:52, R. David Murray <rdmurray@bitdance.com> wrote:
Just so people aren't caught unawares, it is very unlikely that I will have time to be the final editor on "What's New for 3.5" they way I was for 3.3 and 3.4.
And thank you again for your work on those!
I've tried to encourage people to keep What's New up to date, but *someone* should make a final editing pass. Ideally they'd do at least the research Serhiy did last year on checking that there's a mention for all of the versionadded and versionchanged 3.5's in the docs. Even better would be to review the NEWS and/or commit history...but *that* is a really big job these days....
What would your rough estimate of the scope of work be? As you note, the amount of effort involved in doing a thorough job of that has expanded beyond what can reasonably be expected of volunteer contributors, so I'm wondering if it might make sense for the PSF to start offering a contract technical writing gig to finalise the What's New documentation for each new release.
After all, the What's New doc is an essential component of communicating changes in recommended development practices to Python educators, so ensuring we do a good job with that can have a big multiplier effect on all the other work that goes into creating each new release.
I can tell you that 3.4 took me approximately 67 hours according to my time log. That was going through the list prepared by Serhiy, and going through pretty much all of the NEWS entries but not the commit log. I'm a precisionist, so I suspect someone less...ocd...about the details could do it a bit faster, perhaps at the cost of some small amount of accuracy :) On the other hand, my knowledge of the code base and the development that had been going on probably sped up my analysis and writeup of the missing entries (and revision of existing entries, in many cases). On gripping hand, I also did some small amount of documentation rewriting and clarification along the way. --David
FWIW, it took me 100+ hours. Doing this right is a non-trivial undertaking (in modern times, there are an astonishing number of changes per release). That said, it is rewarding work that makes a difference. Raymond [David Murray] I can tell you that 3.4 took me approximately 67 hours according to my time log. That was going through the list prepared by Serhiy, and going through pretty much all of the NEWS entries but not the commit log. I'm a precisionist, so I suspect someone less...ocd...about the details could do it a bit faster, perhaps at the cost of some small amount of accuracy :)
On Jul 06, 2015, at 09:32 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
FWIW, it took me 100+ hours. Doing this right is a non-trivial undertaking (in modern times, there are an astonishing number of changes per release). That said, it is rewarding work that makes a difference.
Indeed. During distro Python version transitions (including the 3.5 one I'm currently working on), verifying intentional changes via NEWS entries has been really critical. I'll point again to https://wiki.python.org/moin/PortingToPy3k/34to35 which I'm using to document the changes that I've seen break actual packages. Thanks for volunteering to do this work David, and for doing it in the past other-David! Cheers, -Barry
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6 July 2015 at 03:52, R. David Murray <rdmurray@bitdance.com> wrote:
Just so people aren't caught unawares, it is very unlikely that I will have time to be the final editor on "What's New for 3.5" they way I was for 3.3 and 3.4.
And thank you again for your work on those!
I've tried to encourage people to keep What's New up to date, but *someone* should make a final editing pass. Ideally they'd do at least the research Serhiy did last year on checking that there's a mention for all of the versionadded and versionchanged 3.5's in the docs. Even better would be to review the NEWS and/or commit history...but *that* is a really big job these days....
What would your rough estimate of the scope of work be? As you note, the amount of effort involved in doing a thorough job of that has expanded beyond what can reasonably be expected of volunteer contributors, so I'm wondering if it might make sense for the PSF to start offering a contract technical writing gig to finalise the What's New documentation for each new release.
I think I might be able to "volunteer" for the task of writing/editing the "What's New in 3.5" docs. I saw David's comment on it today, so obviously haven't yet had a chance to run it by my employer (Continuum Analytics), but I have a hunch they would allow me to do it at least in large part as paid time. I am experienced as a technical writer, follow python-dev, write about new features, but am *not*, however, my self an existing core developer. If there is interest in this, or at least it seems plausible, I can run it by my employer tomorrow to see about getting enough time allocated (using David Murray's past experience as a guideline for what's likely to be needed). Yours, David... -- Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
On 6 July 2015 at 12:42, David Mertz <mertz@gnosis.cx> wrote:
I think I might be able to "volunteer" for the task of writing/editing the "What's New in 3.5" docs. I saw David's comment on it today, so obviously haven't yet had a chance to run it by my employer (Continuum Analytics), but I have a hunch they would allow me to do it at least in large part as paid time. I am experienced as a technical writer, follow python-dev, write about new features, but am *not*, however, my self an existing core developer.
I think the last point may be a positive rather than a negative when it comes to effectively describing new features :)
If there is interest in this, or at least it seems plausible, I can run it by my employer tomorrow to see about getting enough time allocated (using David Murray's past experience as a guideline for what's likely to be needed).
That would be very helpful! I'd definitely be able to find the time to review and merge updates, it's the research-and-writing side that poses a problem for me (appreciating a task is worth doing isn't the same thing as wanting to do it myself!). Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
Hi Folks, I hereby volunteer to write "What's New for Python 3.5?" if folks on python-dev are fine with me taking the job (i.e. I ran it by Travis, my boss at Continuum, and he's happy to allow me to do that work within my salaried hours... so having time isn't a problem). If this is OK with the powers-that-be, I'll coordinate with David Murray on how best to take over this task from him. Thanks, David... On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I might be able to "volunteer" for the task of writing/editing
"What's New in 3.5" docs. I saw David's comment on it today, so obviously haven't yet had a chance to run it by my employer (Continuum Analytics), but I have a hunch they would allow me to do it at least in large part as
On 6 July 2015 at 12:42, David Mertz <mertz@gnosis.cx> wrote: the paid
time. I am experienced as a technical writer, follow python-dev, write about new features, but am *not*, however, my self an existing core developer.
I think the last point may be a positive rather than a negative when it comes to effectively describing new features :)
If there is interest in this, or at least it seems plausible, I can run it by my employer tomorrow to see about getting enough time allocated (using David Murray's past experience as a guideline for what's likely to be needed).
That would be very helpful! I'd definitely be able to find the time to review and merge updates, it's the research-and-writing side that poses a problem for me (appreciating a task is worth doing isn't the same thing as wanting to do it myself!).
Cheers, Nick.
-- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
-- Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 8:38 AM David Mertz <mertz@gnosis.cx> wrote:
Hi Folks,
I hereby volunteer to write "What's New for Python 3.5?" if folks on python-dev are fine with me taking the job (i.e. I ran it by Travis, my boss at Continuum, and he's happy to allow me to do that work within my salaried hours... so having time isn't a problem).
If this is OK with the powers-that-be, I'll coordinate with David Murray on how best to take over this task from him.
+1
Thanks, David...
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I might be able to "volunteer" for the task of writing/editing
"What's New in 3.5" docs. I saw David's comment on it today, so obviously haven't yet had a chance to run it by my employer (Continuum Analytics), but I have a hunch they would allow me to do it at least in large part as
On 6 July 2015 at 12:42, David Mertz <mertz@gnosis.cx> wrote: the paid
time. I am experienced as a technical writer, follow python-dev, write about new features, but am *not*, however, my self an existing core developer.
I think the last point may be a positive rather than a negative when it comes to effectively describing new features :)
If there is interest in this, or at least it seems plausible, I can run it by my employer tomorrow to see about getting enough time allocated (using David Murray's past experience as a guideline for what's likely to be needed).
That would be very helpful! I'd definitely be able to find the time to review and merge updates, it's the research-and-writing side that poses a problem for me (appreciating a task is worth doing isn't the same thing as wanting to do it myself!).
Cheers, Nick.
-- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
-- Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th. _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/greg%40krypto.org
On 07/06/2015 08:38 AM, David Mertz wrote:
I hereby volunteer to write "What's New for Python 3.5?" if folks on python-dev are fine with me taking the job (i.e. I ran it by Travis, my boss at Continuum, and he's happy to allow me to do that work within my salaried hours... so having time isn't a problem).
Awesome, thank you to you and Continuum! -- ~Ethan~
On 7 July 2015 at 01:38, David Mertz <mertz@gnosis.cx> wrote:
Hi Folks,
I hereby volunteer to write "What's New for Python 3.5?" if folks on python-dev are fine with me taking the job (i.e. I ran it by Travis, my boss at Continuum, and he's happy to allow me to do that work within my salaried hours... so having time isn't a problem).
Huzzah - thanks for offering, and thanks Travis/Continuum for granting you the paid time :) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On 2015-07-06 11:38 AM, David Mertz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I hereby volunteer to write "What's New for Python 3.5?" if folks on python-dev are fine with me taking the job (i.e. I ran it by Travis, my boss at Continuum, and he's happy to allow me to do that work within my salaried hours... so having time isn't a problem).
If this is OK with the powers-that-be, I'll coordinate with David Murray on how best to take over this task from him.
Hi David, Are you still going to work on what's new for 3.5? Yury
I have to apologize profusely here. Just after I offered to do this (and work even said it was OK in principle to do it on work time), my work load went through the roof. And now it's really already later than most of it should have been done. I'd still very much like to work on this, but I wonder if maybe someone else would like to be co-author since the increased workload doesn't actually seem likely to diminish soon. On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Yury Selivanov <yselivanov.ml@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2015-07-06 11:38 AM, David Mertz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I hereby volunteer to write "What's New for Python 3.5?" if folks on python-dev are fine with me taking the job (i.e. I ran it by Travis, my boss at Continuum, and he's happy to allow me to do that work within my salaried hours... so having time isn't a problem).
If this is OK with the powers-that-be, I'll coordinate with David Murray on how best to take over this task from him.
Hi David,
Are you still going to work on what's new for 3.5?
Yury
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-- Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
On September 5, 2015 12:27:26 PM CDT, David Mertz <mertz@gnosis.cx> wrote:
I have to apologize profusely here. Just after I offered to do this (and work even said it was OK in principle to do it on work time), my work load went through the roof. And now it's really already later than most of it should have been done. I'd still very much like to work on this, but I wonder if maybe someone else would like to be co-author since the increased workload doesn't actually seem likely to diminish soon.
So... I also have a lot of stuff right now, but it's not that bad...could I help out here?
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Yury Selivanov <yselivanov.ml@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2015-07-06 11:38 AM, David Mertz wrote:
Hi Folks,
I hereby volunteer to write "What's New for Python 3.5?" if folks on python-dev are fine with me taking the job (i.e. I ran it by Travis,
my
boss at Continuum, and he's happy to allow me to do that work within my salaried hours... so having time isn't a problem).
If this is OK with the powers-that-be, I'll coordinate with David Murray on how best to take over this task from him.
Hi David,
Are you still going to work on what's new for 3.5?
Yury
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/mertz%40gnosis.cx
-- Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
On 2015-09-05 1:27 PM, David Mertz wrote:
I have to apologize profusely here. Just after I offered to do this (and work even said it was OK in principle to do it on work time), my work load went through the roof. And now it's really already later than most of it should have been done. I'd still very much like to work on this, but I wonder if maybe someone else would like to be co-author since the increased workload doesn't actually seem likely to diminish soon.
I can recommend someone -- my colleague Elvis Pranskevichus. Elvis is a highly experienced Python developer with deep experience in networks programming, databases, compilers etc. He also has very good editing skills, and helped me to better shape PEP 492 (Rationale and Abstract sections were written by him). He isn't a core developer but I can review and commit his patches, as well as assist him with other matters, like checking the NEWS file and ensuring proper versionadded/changed tags in out documentation. We can spend 60-70 hours on this task. Yury
Awesome! We need more people with those skills! --Guido (on mobile) On Sep 5, 2015 11:07 AM, "Yury Selivanov" <yselivanov.ml@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2015-09-05 1:27 PM, David Mertz wrote:
I have to apologize profusely here. Just after I offered to do this (and work even said it was OK in principle to do it on work time), my work load went through the roof. And now it's really already later than most of it should have been done. I'd still very much like to work on this, but I wonder if maybe someone else would like to be co-author since the increased workload doesn't actually seem likely to diminish soon.
I can recommend someone -- my colleague Elvis Pranskevichus.
Elvis is a highly experienced Python developer with deep experience in networks programming, databases, compilers etc. He also has very good editing skills, and helped me to better shape PEP 492 (Rationale and Abstract sections were written by him).
He isn't a core developer but I can review and commit his patches, as well as assist him with other matters, like checking the NEWS file and ensuring proper versionadded/changed tags in out documentation. We can spend 60-70 hours on this task.
Yury
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Hi Team Python, It is really nice, motivating and encouraging to see people contribute to community in spite of the work load. "Thank you" is just not enough to appreciate your efforts. I have been programming in Python for quite some time and I am loving it more as days pass by. I have been thinking of contributing to the community but not sure how and where to start. Of course my employer will never allow me do this as paid time, but I can take out about an hour a day on my own. Can someone guide me how can I utilize this time for the community? Best regards, Laxmikant On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 2:52 AM, Yury Selivanov <yselivanov.ml@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2015-09-05 2:23 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Awesome! We need more people with those skills!
--Guido (on mobile)
Great, we'll start today!
Thanks, Yury
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On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 3:08 AM, Laxmikant Chitare <laxmikant.general@gmail.com> wrote:
It is really nice, motivating and encouraging to see people contribute to community in spite of the work load. "Thank you" is just not enough to appreciate your efforts. I have been programming in Python for quite some time and I am loving it more as days pass by. I have been thinking of contributing to the community but not sure how and where to start. Of course my employer will never allow me do this as paid time, but I can take out about an hour a day on my own. Can someone guide me how can I utilize this time for the community?
Pick up something that I keep telling myself I'll do more of, and never seem to do a significant amount of: read through http://bugs.python.org/ and confirm the unconfirmed, or check that patches are working correctly, or add patches to things that definitely need them. Even if you don't know C, there are plenty of places where you could do that; large slabs of the standard library are written in Python, and the docs are in a straight-forward markup language, so docs patches basically just require knowledge of English. ChrisA
On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 at 10:11 Laxmikant Chitare <laxmikant.general@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Team Python,
It is really nice, motivating and encouraging to see people contribute to community in spite of the work load. "Thank you" is just not enough to appreciate your efforts. I have been programming in Python for quite some time and I am loving it more as days pass by. I have been thinking of contributing to the community but not sure how and where to start. Of course my employer will never allow me do this as paid time, but I can take out about an hour a day on my own. Can someone guide me how can I utilize this time for the community?
The easiest way is to read the devguide: https://docs.python.org/devguide/ . It includes instructions on how you can help, instructions on how to join the core-mentorship mailing list, etc. -Brett
Best regards, Laxmikant
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 2:52 AM, Yury Selivanov <yselivanov.ml@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2015-09-05 2:23 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Awesome! We need more people with those skills!
--Guido (on mobile)
Great, we'll start today!
Thanks, Yury
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On 05.07.15 20:52, R. David Murray wrote:
Just so people aren't caught unawares, it is very unlikely that I will have time to be the final editor on "What's New for 3.5" they way I was for 3.3 and 3.4. I've tried to encourage people to keep What's New up to date, but *someone* should make a final editing pass. Ideally they'd do at least the research Serhiy did last year on checking that there's a mention for all of the versionadded and versionchanged 3.5's in the docs. Even better would be to review the NEWS and/or commit history...but *that* is a really big job these days....
Many thanks you David for your invaluable work. Here is 3.5 NEWS file cleaned from duplicates in 3.4 NEWS file (i.e. from entries about merged bug fixes). It is much less than unfiltered NEWS file. Hope this will help volunteers.
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 21:45:01 +0300, Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> wrote:
On 05.07.15 20:52, R. David Murray wrote:
Just so people aren't caught unawares, it is very unlikely that I will have time to be the final editor on "What's New for 3.5" they way I was for 3.3 and 3.4. I've tried to encourage people to keep What's New up to date, but *someone* should make a final editing pass. Ideally they'd do at least the research Serhiy did last year on checking that there's a mention for all of the versionadded and versionchanged 3.5's in the docs. Even better would be to review the NEWS and/or commit history...but *that* is a really big job these days....
Many thanks you David for your invaluable work.
Here is 3.5 NEWS file cleaned from duplicates in 3.4 NEWS file (i.e. from entries about merged bug fixes). It is much less than unfiltered NEWS file. Hope this will help volunteers.
That's great. What I did was work from the html-rendered NEWS page, and click through to the issue to figure out whether it was a bug fix or an enhancement. Not having to do that check should speed things up. I seem to recall I did find a couple of things that were screwed up and still bore mentioning in whatsnew, but I doubt that is likely enough to make enough difference to be worth it. I also wound up fixing some incorrect NEWS entries (wrong numbers, English, other errors), but that is not central to the whatsnew project. That activity was probably included in the hours count, though. For David (or whoever): in addition to the obvious task of writing up appropriate entries in What's New, part of what I did was to make sure that all of the relevant documentation entries had the appropriate versionchanged or versionadded tags, and that the new documentation made sense. As I recall, my working rhythm was to write the What's New entry including links to the things that had changed, render the what's new page to html, fix the links, then work through the links to make sure the docs made sense and there were appropriate 'versionxxx' tags. You, of course, may find a different working style more beneficial :). Oh, and work from newest change to oldest change. I did it from oldest to newest and only realized late in the game that was the wrong order, because some changes got undone or modified by later changes :) --David
participants (14)
-
Barry Warsaw -
Brett Cannon -
Chris Angelico -
David Mertz -
Ethan Furman -
Gregory P. Smith -
Guido van Rossum -
Laxmikant Chitare -
Nick Coghlan -
R. David Murray -
Raymond Hettinger -
Ryan Gonzalez -
Serhiy Storchaka -
Yury Selivanov