On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: ...

Is dealing with name conflicts left up to the application?

When an application iterates on the plugins that are supposely built for it, it will probably expect a single type of object. For instance unitest2 will want classes that are overriding its Plugin base class. So it should be able to drop objects that are not compliant with its system. Now, since the distutils id at PyPI is unique, using it for the application name in the plugin like I proposed, should also help preventing this issue.

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Oleg Broytman wrote:

On Sun, Aug 01, 2010 at 10:37:47PM +0200, Tarek Ziad? wrote:

...

The file is a CSV file

  In what encoding (charset)? I quickly skimmed over PEPs 262, 241, 314 and 376, but didn't encountered any mention of the words "encoding" or "charset". Documentation for the "csv" module also doesn't provide any clear indication of encoding/charset.

utf-8. I'll add this info in PEP 376 -- Thanks

Oleg. --     Oleg Broytman            http://phd.pp.ru/            phd@phd.pp.ru           Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/ziade.tarek%40gmail.com

-- Tarek Ziadé | http://ziade.org

On 02/08/2010 00:46, Tarek Ziadé wrote:

[snip...]

...

I don't think that unittest would use a distutils2 (or pkgutil) supplied API for activation.

But the discovery API you will use might just simply filter out disabled plugins.

I did consider asking this but thought it was a silly question - there *must* be an API to get all plugins otherwise applications couldn't activate or deactivate them (or allow their users to do this) - and then how could users activate a non-active plugin? (I guess there could be private APIs that only distutils2 is supposed to use, or the script that you mentioned.) On the other hand if the user has deactivated a plugin through distutils2 I have no problem with it not being available to unittest.

In any case, if unittest2 tries to bypass this activation flag I don't see the point of having it there since its purpose is to let the end-user deactivate a plugin that might be used by several applications.

Right. As I explained, I don't think unittest *can* use this mechanism since it can have plugins active for one project but not for another. I would really have no problem with this machinery existing, but it wouldn't be useful/usable by unittest for plugins. It sounds like it can fairly easily be bolted on as a new feature set later *anyway*, so dropping it for now simplifies the initial implementation. Wouldn't that mean that distutils2 would still need its *own* system for telling whether or not installed plugins are active? So maybe you have to build it anyway.

...

unittest needs *separate* per user and per project activation (a plugin active for a project may not be needed in other projects and so won't be enabled at the user level for example).

And sharing plugins across apps is a use case too: Nose could use unittest2 plugins and vice-versa.

Hehe, well - that's a different story... Michael

Tarek

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On 02/08/2010 01:03, Tarek Ziadé wrote:

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:56 AM, Michael Foord wrote:

...

On 02/08/2010 00:46, Tarek Ziadé wrote:

...

[snip...]

...

I don't think that unittest would use a distutils2 (or pkgutil) supplied API for activation.

But the discovery API you will use might just simply filter out disabled plugins.

I did consider asking this but thought it was a silly question - there *must* be an API to get all plugins otherwise applications couldn't activate or deactivate them (or allow their users to do this) - and then how could users activate a non-active plugin? (I guess there could be private APIs that only distutils2 is supposed to use, or the script that you mentioned.)

yes, there will be a way to retrieve them all

...

...

It sounds like it can fairly easily be bolted on as a new feature set later *anyway*, so dropping it for now simplifies the initial implementation.

but then we would be back to the problem mentioned about entry points: installing projects can implicitly add a plugin and activate it, and break existing applications that iterate over entry points without further configuration. So being able to disable plugins from the beginning seems important to me

I agree it sounds like an important feature - a point of control for the user or the system as you said on irc. I still don't think unittest *can* use it, but I'm quite happy with the fact that if a user deactivates a plugin through distutils2 then it is no longer *available* to unittest. Michael -- http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/ http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (”BOGUS AGREEMENTS”) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.

On 02/08/2010 19:05, Holger Krekel wrote:

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Ian Bicking wrote:

...

Just to add a general opinion in here:

Having worked with Setuptools' entry points, and a little with some Zope pluginish systems (Products.*, which I don't think anyone liked much, and some ways ZCML is used is pluginish), I'm not very excited about these. The plugin system that causes the least confusion and yet seems to accomplish everything it needs is just listing objects in configuration -- nothing gets activated implicitly with installation, and names are Python package/object names without indirection.

This makes it a two-step process to use a plugin: install it and then configure it correctly to have it used.

I'd much prefer a one-step process and rather provide a way to not-use a plugin even if installed. The difference is e.g. with py.test that i can point users to e.g.

pip install pytest-figleaf py.test --figleaf

How do you achieve this currently? Michael

instead of also having to explain a configuration file, its location and exact content or some magic attribute variables on some classes.

TBH, i'd like to have pip handle plugins, based on metadata (especially some data signaling something is a plugin of otherthing). This way i only once have to teach about "pip" and people leverage their knowledge for installing/managing plugins.

best, holger

...

The only thing I'd want to add is the ability to also point to files, as a common use for plugins is adding ad hoc functionality to an application, and the overhead of package creation isn't always called for. hg for example seems both simple and general enough, and it doesn't use anything fancy.

Purely for the purpose of discovery and documentation it might be helpful to have APIs, then some tool could show available plugins (especially if PyPI had a query interface for this), or at least installed plugins, with the necessary code to invoke them.

*Maybe* it would make sense to generalize the discovery of plugin types, so that you can simply refer to an object and the application can determine what kind of plugin it is. But having described this, it actually doesn't seem like a useful thing to generalize.

-- Ian Bicking | http://blog.ianbicking.org

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On 02/08/2010 19:45, Holger Krekel wrote:

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:12 PM, Michael Foord wrote:

...

On 02/08/2010 19:05, Holger Krekel wrote:

...

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Ian Bicking wrote:

...

Just to add a general opinion in here:

Having worked with Setuptools' entry points, and a little with some Zope pluginish systems (Products.*, which I don't think anyone liked much, and some ways ZCML is used is pluginish), I'm not very excited about these. The plugin system that causes the least confusion and yet seems to accomplish everything it needs is just listing objects in configuration -- nothing gets activated implicitly with installation, and names are Python package/object names without indirection.

This makes it a two-step process to use a plugin: install it and then configure it correctly to have it used.

I'd much prefer a one-step process and rather provide a way to not-use a plugin even if installed. The difference is e.g. with py.test that i can point users to e.g.

pip install pytest-figleaf py.test --figleaf

How do you achieve this currently?

it uses setuptools entrypoints, so with a setup.py param like

Right. I can't use that for unittest. With the new proposal we *could* automatically use all available plugins, but I think I prefer to only have plugins active that the user has chosen. Michael

entry_points = {'pytest11': ['pytest_figleaf = pytest_figleaf'],},

py.test's pluginmanager.py does:

for ep in pkg_resources.iter_entry_points('pytest11'): # ... ep.name == "pytest_figleaf"<- left side of above "*=*" plugin = ep.load() #<- right side of above "*=*" # ...

best, holger

...

Michael

...

instead of also having to explain a configuration file, its location and exact content or some magic attribute variables on some classes.

TBH, i'd like to have pip handle plugins, based on metadata (especially some data signaling something is a plugin of otherthing). This way i only once have to teach about "pip" and people leverage their knowledge for installing/managing plugins.

best, holger

...

The only thing I'd want to add is the ability to also point to files, as a common use for plugins is adding ad hoc functionality to an application, and the overhead of package creation isn't always called for. hg for example seems both simple and general enough, and it doesn't use anything fancy.

Purely for the purpose of discovery and documentation it might be helpful to have APIs, then some tool could show available plugins (especially if PyPI had a query interface for this), or at least installed plugins, with the necessary code to invoke them.

*Maybe* it would make sense to generalize the discovery of plugin types, so that you can simply refer to an object and the application can determine what kind of plugin it is. But having described this, it actually doesn't seem like a useful thing to generalize.

-- Ian Bicking | http://blog.ianbicking.org

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