Python-dev mailing lis archives earlier than late April 1999?
I could swear python-dev was older than late April 1999, yet that's as far back as the MM3 archives go. As evidence, here's an email from Jack Jansen on 28 April 1999 which was a reply to an earlier message not present in the current archive: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/EMH62JYFL... Any pointers to older messages appreciated... Skip
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 at 02:24, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
I could swear python-dev was older than late April 1999, yet that's as far back as the MM3 archives go. As evidence, here's an email from Jack Jansen on 28 April 1999 which was a reply to an earlier message not present in the current archive:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/EMH62JYFL...
Any pointers to older messages appreciated...
The old MM2 pipermail archives are still online: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/ (That applies to all the migrated m.p.o mailing lists - the old MM2 archives were left alone, with the MM3 archives having new URLs) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 at 02:42, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 at 02:24, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
I could swear python-dev was older than late April 1999, yet that's as far back as the MM3 archives go. As evidence, here's an email from Jack Jansen on 28 April 1999 which was a reply to an earlier message not present in the current archive:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/EMH62JYFL...
Any pointers to older messages appreciated...
The old MM2 pipermail archives are still online: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/
Although, looking at those archives, they're also missing almost everything from before April 21 1999, so that's not going to answer your question of where to find the messages from earlier in the 90's. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On 1/1/20 8:42 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 at 02:24, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
Any pointers to older messages appreciated...
The old MM2 pipermail archives are still online: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/
The problem is the cumulative archive mbox which was imported into HyperKitty was apparently incomplete. It is actually in pieces which were concatenated for the import
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 5180827 Jun 4 2019 python-dev-1999.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 26717370 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2000.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 24363693 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2001.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 40367530 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2002.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 32832292 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2003.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 31528859 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2004.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 36723436 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2005.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 44116711 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2006.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 22101735 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2007.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 39502442 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2008.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 58868434 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2009.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 435171834 Jun 4 2019 python-dev.mbox
I'll see about adding the missing messages if they are in the pipermail archive. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages in my personal archives. Both dev@python.org (at 09:49 server local time?) and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, 1999. I don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, I’m retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@. -Barry
On Jan 1, 2020, at 08:51, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 1/1/20 8:42 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 at 02:24, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
Any pointers to older messages appreciated...
The old MM2 pipermail archives are still online: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/
The problem is the cumulative archive mbox which was imported into HyperKitty was apparently incomplete. It is actually in pieces which were concatenated for the import
-rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 5180827 Jun 4 2019 python-dev-1999.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 26717370 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2000.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 24363693 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2001.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 40367530 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2002.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 32832292 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2003.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 31528859 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2004.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 36723436 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2005.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 44116711 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2006.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 22101735 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2007.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 39502442 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2008.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 58868434 Jan 18 2010 python-dev-2009.mbox -rw-rw-r-- 1 mailman mailman 435171834 Jun 4 2019 python-dev.mbox
I'll see about adding the missing messages if they are in the pipermail archive.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages in my personal archives. Both dev@python.org (at 09:49 server local time?) and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, 1999. I don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, I’m retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@.
Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds. Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages in my personal archives. Both dev@python.org (at 09:49 server local time?) and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, 1999. I don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, I’m retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@.
Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds.
Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive.
(Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.) I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, it also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999 <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-announce/1999-July/000004.html>. Perhaps python-dev content was embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python before Apr 1999, but we were certainly discussing development of and in Python well before 1999. Where did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my failing memory. I can accept that. If you look at the filenames of the earliest python-list and python-dev messages in the archives: - New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/1999-February/005101.html> (python-list - Feb 1999 - 005101.html) - ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/1999-April/095103.html> (python-dev - Apr 1999 - 095103.html) you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages. Wouldn't new lists simply start with message 000000.html by default? The first message in the csv mailing list is https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/000000.html. Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane is gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the Python language. Thx again... Skip
Hm, I searched Google's comp.lang.python archives for mentions of python-dev before 1999, and found this: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/-HjN6YjOZJg/wJGxiOlpt1MJ (posted 6/22/98 by Marc-André Lemburg): "What would you think of a python-dev list that takes at least some of burdens of intergrating patches, testing, etc. off of your back ? Then you'd have more time for design, etc." (There's also a reply from me where I question whether it will save me any time.) From this I understand that at that point, python-dev wasn't formed yet. Sadly it does appear as if the archives of Python lists before February have mostly disappeared -- e.g. Activestate has the same first messages as you quoted. On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 6:56 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages in my personal archives. Both dev@python.org (at 09:49 server local time?) and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, 1999. I don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, I’m retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@.
Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds.
Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive.
(Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.)
I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, it also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999 <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-announce/1999-July/000004.html>. Perhaps python-dev content was embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python before Apr 1999, but we were certainly discussing development of and in Python well before 1999. Where did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my failing memory. I can accept that. If you look at the filenames of the earliest python-list and python-dev messages in the archives:
- New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/1999-February/005101.html> (python-list - Feb 1999 - 005101.html) - ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/1999-April/095103.html> (python-dev - Apr 1999 - 095103.html)
you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages. Wouldn't new lists simply start with message 000000.html by default? The first message in the csv mailing list is https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/000000.html.
Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane is gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the Python language.
Thx again...
Skip
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/W7UHTMO5... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)* <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
comp.lang.python and thus python-list definitely predate Mailman. In fact, my earliest Python story involves seeing c.l.py creation, browsing for a bit (because who doesn’t love a cool little language that just a handful of enthusiasts are raving about?), and finding it full only of Monty Python jokes. Which of course are great, but why in comp.lang?! Thanks, but I’ll stick with Perl. :) Anyway, python-list and some of the other early lists I can’t find details on right now were originally hosted on Majorodomo. Given that the Mailman archives only go back to 1999, and Guido (and thus most of the Python development infrastructure) had already moved to CNRI by then, it’s possible that the original Majordomo archives were never migrated into Mailman. I just don’t remember and it would take more archive spelunking than I want to do right now. Possibly Ken Manheimer would remember more details. I kind of doubt those original Majordomo archives have survived the various hosting migrations since then, but maybe they are laying around on mail.python.org some place? -Barry
On Jan 6, 2020, at 06:48, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote: On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages in my personal archives. Both dev@python.org (at 09:49 server local time?) and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, 1999. I don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, I’m retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@.
Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds.
Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive.
(Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.)
I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, it also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999. Perhaps python-dev content was embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python before Apr 1999, but we were certainly discussing development of and in Python well before 1999. Where did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my failing memory. I can accept that. If you look at the filenames of the earliest python-list and python-dev messages in the archives:
• New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire (python-list - Feb 1999 - 005101.html) • ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line (python-dev - Apr 1999 - 095103.html) you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages. Wouldn't new lists simply start with message 000000.html by default? The first message in the csv mailing list is https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/000000.html.
Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane is gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the Python language.
Thx again...
Skip
Thanks all. I just pinged Ken and am going to rummage around mail.python.org for a bit. Skip On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 12:10 PM Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote: > comp.lang.python and thus python-list definitely predate Mailman. In > fact, my earliest Python story involves seeing c.l.py creation, browsing > for a bit (because who doesn’t love a cool little language that just a > handful of enthusiasts are raving about?), and finding it full only of > Monty Python jokes. Which of course are great, but why in comp.lang?! > Thanks, but I’ll stick with Perl. :) > > Anyway, python-list and some of the other early lists I can’t find details > on right now were originally hosted on Majorodomo. Given that the Mailman > archives only go back to 1999, and Guido (and thus most of the Python > development infrastructure) had already moved to CNRI by then, it’s > possible that the original Majordomo archives were never migrated into > Mailman. I just don’t remember and it would take more archive spelunking > than I want to do right now. Possibly Ken Manheimer would remember more > details. > > I kind of doubt those original Majordomo archives have survived the > various hosting migrations since then, but maybe they are laying around on > mail.python.org some place? > > -Barry > > > On Jan 6, 2020, at 06:48, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote: > > On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > > I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages in > my personal archives. Both dev@python.org (at 09:49 server local time?) > and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, 1999. I > don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, I’m > retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the > name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@. > > > > Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev > > goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message > > from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds. > > > > Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other > > messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive. > > > > (Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.) > > > > I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, it > also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU > Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999. Perhaps python-dev content was > embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python before Apr 1999, but we were > certainly discussing development of and in Python well before 1999. Where > did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my failing memory. I can accept > that. If you look at the filenames of the earliest python-list and > python-dev messages in the archives: > > > > • New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire > (python-list - Feb 1999 - 005101.html) > > • ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line (python-dev > - Apr 1999 - 095103.html) > > you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages. > Wouldn't new lists simply start with message 000000.html by default? The > first message in the csv mailing list is > https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/000000.html. > > > > Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane is > gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've > heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages > about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to > bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the > Python language. > > > > Thx again... > > > > Skip > > > >
Via Twitter I got ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/mirror/python/search/hypermail/python-recent/, which has earlier python-list archives, ending in April 1995. Not exactly what you were looking for but probably also worth saving before that archive dies. On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 11:56 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks all. I just pinged Ken and am going to rummage around > mail.python.org for a bit. > > Skip > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 12:10 PM Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote: > >> comp.lang.python and thus python-list definitely predate Mailman. In >> fact, my earliest Python story involves seeing c.l.py creation, browsing >> for a bit (because who doesn’t love a cool little language that just a >> handful of enthusiasts are raving about?), and finding it full only of >> Monty Python jokes. Which of course are great, but why in comp.lang?! >> Thanks, but I’ll stick with Perl. :) >> >> Anyway, python-list and some of the other early lists I can’t find >> details on right now were originally hosted on Majorodomo. Given that the >> Mailman archives only go back to 1999, and Guido (and thus most of the >> Python development infrastructure) had already moved to CNRI by then, it’s >> possible that the original Majordomo archives were never migrated into >> Mailman. I just don’t remember and it would take more archive spelunking >> than I want to do right now. Possibly Ken Manheimer would remember more >> details. >> >> I kind of doubt those original Majordomo archives have survived the >> various hosting migrations since then, but maybe they are laying around on >> mail.python.org some place? >> >> -Barry >> >> > On Jan 6, 2020, at 06:48, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote: >> > On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: >> > > I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages >> in my personal archives. Both dev@python.org (at 09:49 server local >> time?) and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, >> 1999. I don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, >> I’m retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the >> name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@. >> > >> > Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev >> > goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message >> > from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds. >> > >> > Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other >> > messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive. >> > >> > (Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.) >> > >> > I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, it >> also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU >> Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999. Perhaps python-dev content was >> embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python before Apr 1999, but we were >> certainly discussing development of and in Python well before 1999. Where >> did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my failing memory. I can accept >> that. If you look at the filenames of the earliest python-list and >> python-dev messages in the archives: >> > >> > • New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire >> (python-list - Feb 1999 - 005101.html) >> > • ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line (python-dev >> - Apr 1999 - 095103.html) >> > you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages. >> Wouldn't new lists simply start with message 000000.html by default? The >> first message in the csv mailing list is >> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/000000.html. >> > >> > Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane is >> gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've >> heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages >> about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to >> bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the >> Python language. >> > >> > Thx again... >> > >> > Skip >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ > Message archived at > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KNITMEVRZZJY2DHYJBBQPCWKCP2DX7JV/ > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)* <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
Thanks. Mirroring to my laptop now. Will discuss how to preserve it more permanently with postmaster. Skip On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 4:43 PM Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote: > Via Twitter I got > ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/mirror/python/search/hypermail/python-recent/, which > has earlier python-list archives, ending in April 1995. Not exactly what > you were looking for but probably also worth saving before that archive > dies. > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 11:56 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Thanks all. I just pinged Ken and am going to rummage around >> mail.python.org for a bit. >> >> Skip >> >> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 12:10 PM Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote: >> >>> comp.lang.python and thus python-list definitely predate Mailman. In >>> fact, my earliest Python story involves seeing c.l.py creation, >>> browsing for a bit (because who doesn’t love a cool little language that >>> just a handful of enthusiasts are raving about?), and finding it full only >>> of Monty Python jokes. Which of course are great, but why in comp.lang?! >>> Thanks, but I’ll stick with Perl. :) >>> >>> Anyway, python-list and some of the other early lists I can’t find >>> details on right now were originally hosted on Majorodomo. Given that the >>> Mailman archives only go back to 1999, and Guido (and thus most of the >>> Python development infrastructure) had already moved to CNRI by then, it’s >>> possible that the original Majordomo archives were never migrated into >>> Mailman. I just don’t remember and it would take more archive spelunking >>> than I want to do right now. Possibly Ken Manheimer would remember more >>> details. >>> >>> I kind of doubt those original Majordomo archives have survived the >>> various hosting migrations since then, but maybe they are laying around on >>> mail.python.org some place? >>> >>> -Barry >>> >>> > On Jan 6, 2020, at 06:48, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote: >>> > On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: >>> > > I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages >>> in my personal archives. Both dev@python.org (at 09:49 server local >>> time?) and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, >>> 1999. I don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the >>> timeline, I’m retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly >>> rethought the name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@. >>> > >>> > Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev >>> > goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message >>> > from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds. >>> > >>> > Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other >>> > messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive. >>> > >>> > (Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.) >>> > >>> > I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, >>> it also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU >>> Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999. Perhaps python-dev content was >>> embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python before Apr 1999, but we were >>> certainly discussing development of and in Python well before 1999. Where >>> did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my failing memory. I can accept >>> that. If you look at the filenames of the earliest python-list and >>> python-dev messages in the archives: >>> > >>> > • New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire >>> (python-list - Feb 1999 - 005101.html) >>> > • ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line >>> (python-dev - Apr 1999 - 095103.html) >>> > you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages. >>> Wouldn't new lists simply start with message 000000.html by default? The >>> first message in the csv mailing list is >>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/000000.html. >>> > >>> > Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane >>> is gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've >>> heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages >>> about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to >>> bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the >>> Python language. >>> > >>> > Thx again... >>> > >>> > Skip >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ >> Message archived at >> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KNITMEVRZZJY2DHYJBBQPCWKCP2DX7JV/ >> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> > > > -- > --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) > *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)* > <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/> >
On 1/6/20 2:43 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Via Twitter I got ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/mirror/python/search/hypermail/python-recent/, which has earlier python-list archives, ending in April 1995. Not exactly what you were looking for but probably also worth saving before that archive dies.
Actually there's quite a bit more than that. see <ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/mirror/python/search/hypermail/>. I have grabbed that entire directory and it is now visible at <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/old_stuff/>. Because of the way that <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/) is updated, the link to 'old_stuff' can't be added to that page in a way that will persist as new messages are archived, but at least they are there until someone comes up with a better place. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 1/6/20 8:03 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
Actually there's quite a bit more than that. see <ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/mirror/python/search/hypermail/>. I have grabbed that entire directory and it is now visible at <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/old_stuff/>. Because of the way that <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/) is updated, the link to 'old_stuff' can't be added to that page in a way that will persist as new messages are archived, but at least they are there until someone comes up with a better place.
Also note that comp.lang.python and hence python-list from late March 1994 onward is archived at <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.lang.python> -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:17 PM Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 1/6/20 8:03 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
Actually there's quite a bit more than that. see <ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/mirror/python/search/hypermail/>. I have grabbed that entire directory and it is now visible at <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/old_stuff/>. Because of the way that <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/) is updated, the link to 'old_stuff' can't be added to that page in a way that will persist as new messages are archived, but at least they are there until someone comes up with a better place.
Thanks!
Also note that comp.lang.python and hence python-list from late March 1994 onward is archived at <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.lang.python>
That's good, because the 1994Q4 link on the archive you downloaded points to http://grail.cnri.reston.va.us/cgi-bin/mlaform/mla/94q4/, which doesn't exist any more. As introduction explains, I have kept (almost) all messages posted to the Python mailing list and newsgroup while I lived in Amsterdam -- until mid April 1995. These are accessible as hypertext, converted by Kevin Huges' excellent hypermail program. (Except the last quarter of 1994, which was -- as an experiment -- maintained by Sam Leffler's MLA tools.) Shame on me for using closed-source software. -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)* <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
Also note that comp.lang.python and hence python-list from late March 1994 onward is archived at <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.lang.python>
Thanks. During my first attempts at applying date range filters on Google Groups, everything came up empty, even for later dates (1999-ish), so I thought perhaps they were gone. I am now getting results. I don't know if I originally hit GG while it was napping or something, but I am getting useful results now. (1/1/94-1/1/95 yields results, while 1/1/93-1/1/94 comes up empty.) This appears to be the first message, on that most persistent of mailing list/newsgroup topics, "Am I First?": https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.python/kCAxphFFnn4 Post #2 had more meat (Python FAQ): https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.python/Nkrro8yfZoo Thanks for the help, folks. I believe I am off and running... Skip
The pipermail archives go back to April 1999. Maybe that's when python-dev split off python-list? https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/ Scroll to the end to see April 1999, and it seems python-dev was fresh then: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/1999-April/095127.html (There's one April 1995 entry, but it appears a misfiled rant from Linus Torvalds. :-) On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 8:24 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
I could swear python-dev was older than late April 1999, yet that's as far back as the MM3 archives go. As evidence, here's an email from Jack Jansen on 28 April 1999 which was a reply to an earlier message not present in the current archive:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/EMH62JYFL...
Any pointers to older messages appreciated...
Skip
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-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)* <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
participants (5)
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Barry Warsaw -
Guido van Rossum -
Mark Sapiro -
Nick Coghlan -
Skip Montanaro