On Mar 9, 2021, at 4:27 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:

On 3/9/2021 3:27 PM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:

...

The Steering Council just published the community update for February:

Thank you for posting this.

...

The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main and the consensus was that we should do that.

I did not that this was an issue. This will break 4 of my .bat files (update repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on docs, run coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and bots. What is the upside? ('next (version)' might be more accurately descriptive, but 'main' works as the 'main branch we are working on'.) Does 'master' confuse people?

Hi Terry, this is happening in many places - for example, see https://sfconservancy.org/news/2020/jun/23/gitbranchname/ https://github.com/github/renaming tl;dr ‘master’ has unpleasant connotations for many, so it’s being changed in many places/many projects. best, —titus

...

The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main and the consensus was that we should do that.

I did not that this was an issue. This will break 4 of my .bat files (update repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on docs, run coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and bots. What is the upside? ('next (version)' might be more accurately descriptive, but 'main' works as the 'main branch we are working on'.) Does 'master' confuse people?

I assume the change will not be abrupt, and people will be notified of the change ahead of time, so we can adjust our scripts accordingly. There are some info about branch renaming here: https://github.com/github/renaming On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 4:31 PM Terry Reedy wrote:

On 3/9/2021 3:27 PM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:

...

The Steering Council just published the community update for February:

Thank you for posting this.

...

The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main and the consensus was that we should do that.

I did not that this was an issue. This will break 4 of my .bat files (update repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on docs, run coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and bots. What is the upside? ('next (version)' might be more accurately descriptive, but 'main' works as the 'main branch we are working on'.) Does 'master' confuse people?

-- Terry Jan Reedy

_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/EMXFMHSF... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

On 10.03.2021 3:53, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw wrote:

...

...

Does 'master' confuse people? There's a general movement to replace language from common programming practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.

Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made? There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.

It is, actually, the ultimate origin of the term. A more immediate origin is the master-slave architecture (the master agent initiates some operation and slave agents respond to it and/or carry it out). Anyway, this is yet another SJW non-issue (countries other than US don't have a modern history of slavery) so this change is a political statement rather than has any technical merit.

I detest these changes that create churn and don't actually solve any problems. They allow people to feel good about themselves for having "made a change", while actually making no useful change whatsoever (are disadvantaged people's lives going to be improved by this rename?). What next? Are we going to crack down on any courses that proclaim to help you to "master the Python language"? Does that, too, have to be renamed?

ChrisA _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UQOPOWD7... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

-- Regards, Ivan

On 3/9/2021 8:03 PM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote:

countries other than US don't have a modern history of slavery Putting both politics and programming aside, this isn't quite so:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom#1950.E2.80.93present <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom#1950.E2.80.93present>

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:10 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote:

On 10.03.2021 3:53, Chris Angelico wrote:

...

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw wrote:

...

...

Does 'master' confuse people? There's a general movement to replace language from common programming practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.

Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made? There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.

It is, actually, the ultimate origin of the term.

A more immediate origin is the master-slave architecture (the master agent initiates some operation and slave agents respond to it and/or carry it out).

Petr Baudis (who named "master" branch) says its origin is "master recording". So it is unrelated to master-slave. https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272280760280637441

Anyway, this is yet another SJW non-issue (countries other than US don't have a modern history of slavery) so this change is a political statement rather than has any technical merit.

Yes. If we don't change the name, we need to pay our energy to same discussion every year. It is not productive. Let's change the name and stop further discussion. -- Inada Naoki

The Steering Council unanimously believes this is the right thing to do. Fortunately GitHub makes it very easy from their side. We push a button and it makes the change for the repo and all PRs. Then when you visit the repo page in GH, it tells you exactly what commands to run to make the change in your local repo. It’s even cut-and-pasteable. We want to be mindful of the timing, both so that folks have plenty of notice to update their scripts and recipes, but also to coordinate with the release managers so that the switch happens when it won’t break the release process. Cheers, -Barry On Mar 9, 2021, at 16:27, Terry Reedy wrote:

On 3/9/2021 3:27 PM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:

...

The Steering Council just published the community update for February:

Thank you for posting this.

...

The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main and the consensus was that we should do that.

I did not that this was an issue. This will break 4 of my .bat files (update repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on docs, run coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and bots. What is the upside? ('next (version)' might be more accurately descriptive, but 'main' works as the 'main branch we are working on'.) Does 'master' confuse people?

-- Terry Jan Reedy

_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/EMXFMHSF... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

On 10/03/2021 01.53, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw wrote:

...

...

Does 'master' confuse people?

There's a general movement to replace language from common programming practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.

Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made? There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.

There is some historical evidence that the developers of git adopted the term from Bitkeeper. After all git was created when Bitkeeper changed its pricing model back in mid of 2000s. Bitkeeper uses master and slave terminology, https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper/blob/master/doc/HOWTO.ask#L232

We are then going to modify the file on both the master and slave repository and then merge the work. For the sake of simplicity, we are doing work in the master repository.

Christian

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:30:43 +0900 Inada Naoki wrote:

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:10 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote:

...

On 10.03.2021 3:53, Chris Angelico wrote:

...

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw wrote:

...

...

Does 'master' confuse people? There's a general movement to replace language from common programming practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.

Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made? There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.

It is, actually, the ultimate origin of the term.

A more immediate origin is the master-slave architecture (the master agent initiates some operation and slave agents respond to it and/or carry it out).

Petr Baudis (who named "master" branch) says its origin is "master recording". So it is unrelated to master-slave. https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272280760280637441

And the origin of the English word is the latin noun "magister": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/magister#Latin Regards Antoine.

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 11:14:26 +0100 Christian Heimes wrote:

On 10/03/2021 10.30, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:30:43 +0900 Inada Naoki wrote:

...

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:10 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote:

...

On 10.03.2021 3:53, Chris Angelico wrote:

...

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw wrote:

...

> Does 'master' confuse people? There's a general movement to replace language from common programming practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.

Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made? There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.

It is, actually, the ultimate origin of the term.

A more immediate origin is the master-slave architecture (the master agent initiates some operation and slave agents respond to it and/or carry it out).

Petr Baudis (who named "master" branch) says its origin is "master recording". So it is unrelated to master-slave. https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272280760280637441

And the origin of the English word is the latin noun "magister": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/magister#Latin

Words change meaning.

Definitely. But if one wants to make a historical argument, it cannot stop at one point in history ;-) In any case, "main" (or hg's "default") is certainly a better generic word for the concept than "master". Whether or not it's worth breaking many pieces of automation out there I'm skeptical about. Regards Antoine.

Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include: […] Insults,

Dear all, Apparently renaming a git branch to follow the general convention is now an unbearable outrage. It strikes me as a somewhat odd hill to die on, but okay. However there is a code of conduct that is supposed to be followed here https://www.python.org/psf/conduct. Let me quote put downs, or jokes that are based upon stereotypes, that are exclusionary, or that hold others up for ridicule If the discussion here can stay civil for changes with far more repercussions for Python (e.g. controversial PEPs), surely it can stay civil for this too. So could we all please refrain ourselves from non-constructive and derogatory comments? If this change actually causes non-hypothetical issues, let us discuss these instead of resorting to poor attempts at being cleverly sarcastic. Best, E On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 at 12:54, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 08:27:19PM +0000, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:

...

The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main and the consensus was that we should do that.

And about time too. Can we now tackle some of the equally pressing use of offensive terms that are common in the Python community, starting with the name of the language itself?

Pythons are snakes, which is triggering to people with a phobia of snakes. About one third of all people, or more than two *billion* people, suffer from some level of phobia towards snakes.

The popular "nose" testing framework is a blatant antisemetic and neo-nazi dog whistle.

"bool" is named after George Boole, a problematic white man who appropriated the culture of both the Middle East and East Asia.

"dict" is confusable with, and is often abbreviated to, an offensive word. And don't even get me started with the obvious sexism of "tty".

Unicode is racist because it has unified Chinese, Japanese and Korean characters as if they were the same thing, and relegates non-Western languages to second class status:

https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/i-can-text-you-a-pile-of-poo-but-i-cant-...

It also includes a teddy bear symbol, which is named after notorious racist and imperialist Theodore Roosevelt, and no less than *six* swastika symbols. Also the Cross of Jerusalem, the symbol of such openly fascist groups as the Federal State of Austria during the 1930s and the Russian far-right extremist organisation the People's National Party.

It even has a symbol for chains, which is associated even more closely with slavery than "master".

Speaking of slavery, in the standard library we have ChainMap and itertools.chain.

We have the ableist "runpy", and in the random module a function named after Vilfredo Pareto, who supported the rule of fascist dictator Benito Mussolini. There are the token and tokenize modules, which are offensive for their association with both sexist and racist views.

The tarfile module is associated with the racist Uncle Remus stories, and a derogatory term for US Blacks.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/post/doug-lamborns-tar-baby-qua...

The textwrap module uses a derogatory racist and fatphobic term dozens of times.

http://rsdb.org/slur/chunk

Each of these issues are just as important as the "master" issue.

-- Steve _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/LZKYCN6K... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

Hi, Could we please stick to the point of renaming a Git branch? Today, renaming a branch is easy. The rationale has been given. I don't think any argument is going to make the Steering Concil changing their mind ("the consensus was that we should do that"). If you want to help, please remain at the technical level to help making this migration as smooth as possible for everybody. On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 2:09 PM Evpok Padding wrote:

If the discussion here can stay civil for changes with far more repercussions for Python (e.g. controversial PEPs), surely it can stay civil for this too.

Thanks. For people able to remain constructive and civil, please join the discussion on the devguide on "listing terms which should be avoided": https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/605 While it's not easy to give an exhaustive list of terms which should be avoided, IMO it would prevent future discussion like this thread. I'm tired of such discussion which is not constructive at all and goes nowhere. People love to take it as an opportonity to troll and quickly messages become more and more offensive. IMO https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/styleguide/inclusive... is a good example to follow: it's short and gives concrete advices for better terms. Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 12:16 AM Evpok Padding wrote:

Dear all,

Apparently renaming a git branch to follow the general convention is now an unbearable outrage.

It is NOT a general convention. It is a push by Microsoft (owners of GitHub). Outside of GitHub, the git command still uses "master" as the default name. This is a *political* move made for *political* reasons, and has consequences downstream. Why is it so important to cause actual real problems for no reason other than to feel good about one insignificant piece of language - and, as Steve pointed out, not even the most significant one? Let's take ChainMap as an example. Would you propose renaming it in Python 3.11? Would there be pushback against such a proposal? Things in the Python standard library, when renamed, can have aliases to ensure backward compatibility. Can you do that with a branch rename? What plans are there to ensure that scripts and tooling can work on both sides of such a rename? Why has there been no discussion of the technical implications of this change prior to now? ChrisA

----- Original Message -----

From: "Chris Angelico" To: "Python-Dev" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 4:20:19 PM Subject: [Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 12:16 AM Evpok Padding wrote:

...

Dear all,

Apparently renaming a git branch to follow the general convention is now an unbearable outrage.

It is NOT a general convention. It is a push by Microsoft (owners of GitHub). Outside of GitHub, the git command still uses "master" as the default name.

The git project is working on that for a long time and the default will be switched at some point: https://lore.kernel.org/git/nycvar.QRO.7.76.6.2006091126540.482@ZVAVAG-DN14R... Gitlab is also transitioning. It was changed in all the Fedora's repositories as well.

This is a *political* move made for *political* reasons, and has consequences downstream. Why is it so important to cause actual real problems for no reason other than to feel good about one insignificant piece of language - and, as Steve pointed out, not even the most significant one?

Let's take ChainMap as an example. Would you propose renaming it in Python 3.11? Would there be pushback against such a proposal? Things in the Python standard library, when renamed, can have aliases to ensure backward compatibility. Can you do that with a branch rename? What plans are there to ensure that scripts and tooling can work on both sides of such a rename?

On Fedora we use a git symbolic reference for the old branches.

Why has there been no discussion of the technical implications of this change prior to now?

ChrisA _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/4VZ7GM6E... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

-- Regards, Charalampos Stratakis Software Engineer Python Maintenance Team, Red Hat

I echo Barry's earlier response. To directly address individuals who object to renaming the branch: I respect your opinion. As I weigh the benefits of keeping the status quo with the benefits of changing, I see the change as a temporary inconvenience to update the branch once in order to open the door to the benefits of conforming to the new industry norm and the simplification that brings to tooling configuration and user/contributor documentation. Thanks. On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 7:49 AM MRAB wrote:

On 2021-03-10 15:17, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 14:23:33 +0000 David Mertz wrote:

...

Renaming main branches as 'main' is currently predominant practice on GitHub (and more broadly in Free Software communities). Python doesn't need to cling to an old name based on a tired argument that political sensitivity is a creeping plot to destroy old "fun" prejudices and injustices.

Uh... Since you're putting "fun" in quotes, I assume this is quoting someone else? (who?)

It's not a quote, it's Irony punctuation (in this case, used to indicate sarcasm):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/RJUCHSTS... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

While, I agree "master" is not and should not be considered a derogatory term—it has demonstrable valid usage—unfortunately the broad usage of "master/slave" terminology in technology muddies the waters.  If it's not changed, the debate about the continuing to use the term will likely be ongoing. So, despite there being no technical merit to the change, my vote would be +1 to change to main, simply to avoid distraction from inevitable ongoing pushes to change it.  On Wed, 2021-03-10 at 08:11 -0800, Carol Willing wrote:

I echo Barry's earlier response.

To directly address individuals who object to renaming the branch: I respect your opinion. As I weigh the benefits of keeping the status quo with the benefits of changing, I see the change as a temporary inconvenience to update the branch once in order to open the door to the benefits of conforming to the new industry norm and the simplification that brings to tooling configuration and user/contributor documentation.

Thanks.

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 7:49 AM MRAB wrote:

...

...

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 14:23:33 +0000 David Mertz wrote:

...

Renaming main branches as 'main' is currently predominant

...

...

GitHub (and more broadly in Free Software communities).  Python doesn't need to cling to an old name based on a tired argument that

On 2021-03-10 15:17, Antoine Pitrou wrote: practice on political

...

...

sensitivity is a creeping plot to destroy old "fun" prejudices and injustices.

Uh... Since you're putting "fun" in quotes, I assume this is quoting someone else? (who?)

It's not a quote, it's Irony punctuation (in this case, used to indicate sarcasm):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at

https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/RJUCHSTS...

...

Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

---

Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/BZQPFFBS... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

It is NOT a general convention. It is a push by Microsoft (owners of GitHub). Outside of GitHub, the git command still uses "master" as the default name.

I agree, not yet. But I think the writing is on the wall that this will be the new convention.

FYI for accuracy the git installer includes an option to change the default branch name with a notice that there will be an upcoming change to have the default name be something more inclusive: https://sfconservancy.org/news/2020/jun/23/gitbranchname/ . This notice appears to predate Github's announcement of the change of name of the default branch: https://github.com/github/renaming Damian (he/him) On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 12:56 PM Paul Bryan wrote:

On Thu, 2021-03-11 at 02:20 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

It is NOT a general convention. It is a push by Microsoft (owners of GitHub). Outside of GitHub, the git command still uses "master" as the default name.

I agree, not yet. But I think the writing is on the wall that this will be the new convention.

This is a *political* move made for *political* reasons, and has consequences downstream. Why is it so important to cause actual real problems for no reason other than to feel good about one insignificant piece of language - and, as Steve pointed out, not even the most significant one?

I don't see this so much as "feel good" as much as "fit in". I do not appreciate the cost of fitting-in though in this case.

To elaborate, there are words we would clearly not use when naming branches, modules, classes, etc. I don't think this list is fixed; I think it changes with the times, and if we value our community, then our community's (changing) standards should figure into our choices.

Paul

_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/LYMQXOKK... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 02:23:33PM +0000, David Mertz wrote:

...

...

It even has a symbol for chains, which is associated even more closely with slavery than "master".

All the other examples are also forced and contrived. This is perhaps worst. I own several chains for purposes having nothing to do with bondage or oppression.

Chains are an almost universal symbol of bondage and slavery: "Man is born free but everywhere he is in chains", according to Rosseau (please forgive the sexism, his sense was mankind as a whole regardless of sex or gender). How is this contrived? Not just contrived, but the "worst" example of it. If "master" is hurtful and harmful because of its connotations, "chains" is even more so. There are "harmless" (supposedly) meanings for "master" too, and "master branch" is one, but we decided to remove that. And yet you are resistant to changing the others. Why? -- Steve

On Mar 10, 2021, at 4:45 PM, David Mertz wrote:

In contrast, the "master" used in version control directly borrows from so-called "master/slave network architecture." I saw in this thread one implausible argument that it was intended in the sense of "magister." I don't believe it, but even if we stipulate that whoever first used the word in relation to version control meant that, nearly everyone else who discusses it means "master/slave."

I don't think it derives from "master/slave network architecture.”. I think it derives from the use of “master” to denote an instance or prototype that is used to create identical copies or replicas, a usage that predates networking, as in master tape, master print, and, (perhaps archaically for you :)), mimeograph master. Irrelevantly, I also think all (almost all?) uses of "master/slave” to describe network architectures are lazy; there is a better existing description, e.g. “active/passive”, “polling” etc. Jonathan P.S. My preference would be “mainline” over “main”. I like railroad version diagrams.

On 2021-03-10 13:45, David Mertz wrote:

In contrast, the "master" used in version control directly borrows from so-called "master/slave network architecture."

It was shown upthread that this isn't the case. Do you have more accurate documentation to refute the claim? - https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272280760280637441 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering_(audio) -Mike

On 11/03/2021 00.38, Mike Miller wrote:

On 2021-03-10 13:45, David Mertz wrote:

...

In contrast, the "master" used in version control directly borrows from so-called "master/slave network architecture."

It was shown upthread that this isn't the case.  Do you have more accurate documentation to refute the claim?

- https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272280760280637441 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering_(audio)

Petr Baudis (xpasky) also wrote: --- (But as noted in a separate thread, it is possible it stems from bitkeeper's master/slave terminology. I hoped to do some historical research but health emergency in my family delayed that.) Regardless, the impression words form in the reader is more important than their intent. --- https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272817929046962176