[Possibly off-topic] Python-Announce floods and delays
(I don't know the best list to post this to, so if this is not it, please forgive me and point me in the right direction. Thanks.) So my inbox, and probably many of yours, was flooded this afternoon with a dozen-plus emails from the Python-Announce list. I understand that this list requires every email to be manually approved by a moderator. The problem is that this is done infrequently. Prior to today, the last round of approvals was June 26, almost two weeks ago. This is not an atypical delay; on the contrary, it seems that moderators only look at the queue once every one to two weeks. There are several problems with these delays: 1. They result in floods of emails, with a large number of emails in a short period of time. This makes inbox management difficult on the days that approvals are done. Before you argue that "it's fine if you have the right tools configured in the right way", consider that there are probably many people who are subscribed to Python-Announce who have no interest in and are not subscribed to any of the actual discussion lists where such tools are most beneficial. Complex tool configurations should not be a requirement for managing incoming emails from what is essentially (to those people) a notification-only mailing list. These people would be better served by frequent approvals several times a week, allowing them to get fewer emails at one time, but in a more timely manner. 2. Speaking of a more timely manner, the lengthy delays result in redundant and outdated emails going through after the point where they are no longer relevant. One such issue exemplified by today's set of approvals (and seen on previous occasions before) is an announcement of a new release of a PyPI package not being approved until after there has already been a subsequent release to that same package. In this case I am referring to the pytest 5.0.0 announcement sent to the list on June 28 (according to the headers), followed by the pytest 5.0.1 announcement sent to the list on July 5. Neither was approved and delivered to subscribers until today. 3. More importantly in terms of delays, on July 3 an announcement was sent to the list regarding the impending switch of EuroPython ticket rates to the late registration rate on July 6. This is an example of a time-sensitive announcement that needs to not be delayed. Instead, the email was not approved and delivered to subscribers until today, July 8, after the conference has already begun, and not in time for list subscribers to react and avoid the late registration rates. Is there a solution to this that would enable moderators to approve more frequently? I understand that they are probably volunteers and need to find spare time to wade through the queue, but if approvals are done more frequently (even daily), then it will consume much less time on each occasion. It would go from a task requiring an entire hour (as it apparently did today based on the delivery timestamps) to something that can be done on a coffee break.
On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 03:27:50PM -0400, Jonathan Goble wrote:
(I don't know the best list to post this to, so if this is not it, please forgive me and point me in the right direction. Thanks.)
So my inbox, and probably many of yours, was flooded this afternoon with a dozen-plus emails from the Python-Announce list. I understand that this list requires every email to be manually approved by a moderator. The problem is that this is done infrequently. Prior to today, the last round of approvals was June 26, almost two weeks ago. This is not an atypical delay; on the contrary, it seems that moderators only look at the queue once every one to two weeks.
There are several problems with these delays:
1. They result in floods of emails, with a large number of emails in a short period of time. This makes inbox management difficult on the days that approvals are done. Before you argue that "it's fine if you have the right tools configured in the right way", consider that there are probably many people who are subscribed to Python-Announce who have no interest in and are not subscribed to any of the actual discussion lists where such tools are most beneficial. Complex tool configurations should not be a requirement for managing incoming emails from what is essentially (to those people) a notification-only mailing list. These people would be better served by frequent approvals several times a week, allowing them to get fewer emails at one time, but in a more timely manner.
2. Speaking of a more timely manner, the lengthy delays result in redundant and outdated emails going through after the point where they are no longer relevant. One such issue exemplified by today's set of approvals (and seen on previous occasions before) is an announcement of a new release of a PyPI package not being approved until after there has already been a subsequent release to that same package. In this case I am referring to the pytest 5.0.0 announcement sent to the list on June 28 (according to the headers), followed by the pytest 5.0.1 announcement sent to the list on July 5. Neither was approved and delivered to subscribers until today.
3. More importantly in terms of delays, on July 3 an announcement was sent to the list regarding the impending switch of EuroPython ticket rates to the late registration rate on July 6. This is an example of a time-sensitive announcement that needs to not be delayed. Instead, the email was not approved and delivered to subscribers until today, July 8, after the conference has already begun, and not in time for list subscribers to react and avoid the late registration rates.
Is there a solution to this that would enable moderators to approve more frequently? I understand that they are probably volunteers and need to find spare time to wade through the queue, but if approvals are done more frequently (even daily), then it will consume much less time on each occasion. It would go from a task requiring an entire hour (as it apparently did today based on the delivery timestamps) to something that can be done on a coffee break.
I already help moderate python-ideas and would be happy to help moderate announce. best, --titus -- C. Titus Brown, ctbrown@ucdavis.edu
On Jul 8, 2019, at 12:27, Jonathan Goble <jcgoble3@gmail.com> wrote:
So my inbox, and probably many of yours, was flooded this afternoon with a dozen-plus emails from the Python-Announce list. I understand that this list requires every email to be manually approved by a moderator.
I cleared the queue this morning, and unfortunately let one spam through. Apologies for that. I’m not a super active moderator, but I do have to say that it’s so much easier to clear the queue now that the list is on Mailman 3. That said, it still takes active participation in order to review held messages.
Is there a solution to this that would enable moderators to approve more frequently?
Volunteers are welcome! :) -Barry
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 3:59 PM Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
I’m not a super active moderator, but I do have to say that it’s so much easier to clear the queue now that the list is on Mailman 3. That said, it still takes active participation in order to review held messages. ... Volunteers are welcome! :)
Does Mailman 3 notify moderators when candidates for moderation enter the queue? If so, I'll step up to help out. MM3 knows me as "fred@fdrake.net". -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fred at fdrake.net> "A storm broke loose in my mind." --Albert Einstein
Fred Drake wrote:
I’m not a super active moderator, but I do have to say that it’s so much easier to clear the queue now that the list is on Mailman 3. That said, it still takes active participation in order to review held messages. ... Volunteers are welcome! :) Does Mailman 3 notify moderators when candidates for moderation enter
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 3:59 PM Barry Warsaw barry@python.org... wrote: the queue?
Yes!
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 3:56 PM Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
On Jul 8, 2019, at 12:27, Jonathan Goble <jcgoble3@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a solution to this that would enable moderators to approve more frequently?
Volunteers are welcome! :)
-Barry
I'd offer to volunteer, but I am merely a lurker and not active in the community, and I feel like someone more active and known in the community should take that role. Speaking of which, it looks like an -ideas mod has volunteered for -announce, so maybe that will help. :)
On 08.07.2019 23:10, Jonathan Goble wrote:
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 3:56 PM Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org <mailto:barry@python.org>> wrote:
On Jul 8, 2019, at 12:27, Jonathan Goble <jcgoble3@gmail.com <mailto:jcgoble3@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Is there a solution to this that would enable moderators to approve > more frequently?
Volunteers are welcome! :)
-Barry
I'd offer to volunteer, but I am merely a lurker and not active in the community, and I feel like someone more active and known in the community should take that role. Speaking of which, it looks like an -ideas mod has volunteered for -announce, so maybe that will help. :)
The requirement here is not prior fame but free time for the job (and a minimal amount of common sense if that could be called a requirement).
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-- Regards, Ivan
On 07/08/2019 12:56 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
I’m not a super active moderator, but I do have to say that it’s so much easier to clear the queue now that the list is on Mailman 3. That said, it still takes active participation in order to review held messages.
Volunteers are welcome! :)
Sign me up! Looks like much less of a burden than -list is (and probably about the same as core-mentorship). :-) -- ~Ethan~
On Jul 8, 2019, at 12:56, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
Volunteers are welcome! :)
Wow, that was fast! Thanks for the offers for help. I’ll add everyone who’s stepped up so far to the list moderators. Yes, you do get a notification every day with a link right to the moderation page. Cheers, -Barry
[even further off-topic] While I have the attention of so many community-spirited individuals, I might mention that webmaster@ could do with a few lurkers to get used to the traffic. At present it's solely maintained by Mats Wichmann and me, and I'm planning to step back from all PSF duties soon. The duties aren't heavy, but the traffic is fairly regular and most of it benefits from being answered sooner rather than later. So if anyone wants to pitch in, you'll be welcomed. Kind regards, Steve Holden On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 10:28 PM Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
On Jul 8, 2019, at 12:56, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
Volunteers are welcome! :)
Wow, that was fast! Thanks for the offers for help. I’ll add everyone who’s stepped up so far to the list moderators. Yes, you do get a notification every day with a link right to the moderation page.
Cheers, -Barry
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On 07/08/2019 03:12 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
[even further off-topic]
While I have the attention of so many community-spirited individuals, I might mention that webmaster@ could do with a few lurkers to get used to the traffic. At present it's solely maintained by Mats Wichmann and me, and I'm planning to step back from all PSF duties soon. The duties aren't heavy, but the traffic is fairly regular and most of it benefits from being answered sooner rather than later.
What kind of traffic? Actually answering questions or the same type of gate-keeper duties as the list mods? -- ~Ethan~
[python-dev -> Bcc] There are questions to answer, but they are mostly of a pretty mundane kind. Technical issues are deflected by the auto-response, which contains many pointers to sources of possible assistance, and so can usually be disregarded or followed up with a simple response underlining the need to seek assistance elsewhere. We see remarkably little spam, so moderating the list isn't an issue and I've been doing that unaided for over a year without noticing. Kind regards, Steve Holden On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:56 PM Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
On 07/08/2019 03:12 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
[even further off-topic]
While I have the attention of so many community-spirited individuals, I might mention that webmaster@ could do with a few lurkers to get used to the traffic. At present it's solely maintained by Mats Wichmann and me, and I'm planning to step back from all PSF duties soon. The duties aren't heavy, but the traffic is fairly regular and most of it benefits from being answered sooner rather than later.
What kind of traffic? Actually answering questions or the same type of gate-keeper duties as the list mods?
-- ~Ethan~ _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MEQPOPC5...
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 5:23 PM Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
On Jul 8, 2019, at 12:56, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
Volunteers are welcome! :)
Wow, that was fast! Thanks for the offers for help. I’ll add everyone who’s stepped up so far to the list moderators. Yes, you do get a notification every day with a link right to the moderation page.
Cheers, -Barry
I'll echo the "wow". :) Happy to see people jumping at the chance to help. Hopefully this leads to quicker moderation (which seems likely) that doesn't flood inboxes like today. As for me, I'll continue to lurk and learn as I continue my sophomore year as a college student majoring in computer science, with hopes of becoming more active in contributing to Python as I gain more experience and skills. Thanks everyone! :D
Jonathan Goble writes:
As for me, I'll continue to lurk and learn as I continue my sophomore year as a college student majoring in computer science, with hopes of becoming more active in contributing to Python as I gain more experience and skills.
Evidently you have ambition to acquire a "commit bit". That's a worthy goal (heaven knows we need more reviewers!), but there are plenty of other ways to contribute. Some of the obvious ones (like documentation and teaching) may not be your thing, but there's probably a PyCon or Python meetup near you. Especially for the larger ones, there are all kinds of "social volunteer" tasks, such as swag bag stuffing and registration desk, where even an hour or so of contribution is appreciated and you can interact with other people who are there for the same reasons you are. (Beware: volunteering can be addictive, and you may find yourself running for PSF Board before you know it!) "Contribution" doesn't have to involve "skills" or deskwork, and everyone can find ways that are lots of fun for them! Steve
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 12:35 AM Stephen J. Turnbull <turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
Jonathan Goble writes:
As for me, I'll continue to lurk and learn as I continue my sophomore year as a college student majoring in computer science, with hopes of becoming more active in contributing to Python as I gain more experience and skills.
Evidently you have ambition to acquire a "commit bit". That's a worthy goal (heaven knows we need more reviewers!),
Ha, I don't have any kind of grand ambitions like that (at least not yet). To date I've contributed exactly one commit, that being a trivial typo fix in a PEP. My real goal is get to the point in a year or two where I can periodically contribute non-trivial code to fix real bugs and such, but I'm going through a major transition right now (graduating community college and transferring to a four-year university next month) and don't have the spare time to wade in currently. I also haven't taken any real computer courses yet other than a basic freshman-level Java sequence, so my general skills are lacking, but this upcoming academic year is when I will get elbow-deep in the more advanced courses, including algorithms, so once I settle in to the university over the next few months I plan to try to contribute more.
but there are plenty of other ways to contribute. Some of the obvious ones (like documentation and teaching) may not be your thing, but there's probably a PyCon or Python meetup near you. Especially for the larger ones, there are all kinds of "social volunteer" tasks, such as swag bag stuffing and registration desk, where even an hour or so of contribution is appreciated and you can interact with other people who are there for the same reasons you are.
I cannot afford a lot of travel, and as a college student, I have limited dates to do so. For example, this year's PyCon was inaccessible to me despite living "nearby" in Southwest Ohio partially because of inability to afford gas and a hotel, but more importantly, because it was held during final exam week. Next year's PyCon, a similar distance away, will be during the last week of classes before final exams, so I can't attend it either. I wish I could, but the schedules don't work. From a financial perspective, even a single night in a hotel is something I have to plan and budget for at least a month or two in advance.
(Beware: volunteering can be addictive, and you may find yourself running for PSF Board before you know it!)
The day that happens will be the day hell freezes over. :P
"Contribution" doesn't have to involve "skills" or deskwork, and everyone can find ways that are lots of fun for them!
Steve
What's fun for me is writing code. ;) When I have the free time (which isn't much lately), I like to play around with writing random personal projects, a couple of which I have published rough betas to PyPI (that probably have been downloaded by nobody except me). I need to find time between semesters to sit down and polish some of them up to create a portfolio for internship applications, and I'm sure that the next year of college will help me improve the quality significantly. That said, if I could get to a PyCon or other meetup (which is a function of both money and scheduling), I would be more than willing to sign up for a volunteer shift. The difficulty is getting there without disrupting my education or breaking the bank.
participants (9)
-
Barry Warsaw -
Brett Cannon -
C. Titus Brown -
Ethan Furman -
Fred Drake -
Ivan Pozdeev -
Jonathan Goble -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Steve Holden