Mailman 3 December 2015 - Python-ideas

@classproperty, @abc.abstractclasspropery, etc.
by K. Richard Pixley Dec. 16, 2020

Dec. 16, 2020

There's a whole matrix of these and I'm wondering why the matrix is currently sparse rather than implementing them all. Or rather, why we can't stack them as: class foo(object): @classmethod @property def bar(cls, ...): ... Essentially the permutation are, I think: {'unadorned'|abc.abstract}{'normal'|static|class}{method|property|non-callable attribute}. concreteness implicit first arg type name comments {unadorned} {unadorned} method def foo(): exists … [View More]now {unadorned} {unadorned} property @property exists now {unadorned} {unadorned} non-callable attribute x = 2 exists now {unadorned} static method @staticmethod exists now {unadorned} static property @staticproperty proposing {unadorned} static non-callable attribute {degenerate case - variables don't have arguments} unnecessary {unadorned} class method @classmethod exists now {unadorned} class property @classproperty or @classmethod;@property proposing {unadorned} class non-callable attribute {degenerate case - variables don't have arguments} unnecessary abc.abstract {unadorned} method @abc.abstractmethod exists now abc.abstract {unadorned} property @abc.abstractproperty exists now abc.abstract {unadorned} non-callable attribute @abc.abstractattribute or @abc.abstract;@attribute proposing abc.abstract static method @abc.abstractstaticmethod exists now abc.abstract static property @abc.staticproperty proposing abc.abstract static non-callable attribute {degenerate case - variables don't have arguments} unnecessary abc.abstract class method @abc.abstractclassmethod exists now abc.abstract class property @abc.abstractclassproperty proposing abc.abstract class non-callable attribute {degenerate case - variables don't have arguments} unnecessary I think the meanings of the new ones are pretty straightforward, but in case they are not... @staticproperty - like @property only without an implicit first argument. Allows the property to be called directly from the class without requiring a throw-away instance. @classproperty - like @property, only the implicit first argument to the method is the class. Allows the property to be called directly from the class without requiring a throw-away instance. @abc.abstractattribute - a simple, non-callable variable that must be overridden in subclasses @abc.abstractstaticproperty - like @abc.abstractproperty only for @staticproperty @abc.abstractclassproperty - like @abc.abstractproperty only for @classproperty --rich [View Less]

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Specify number of items to allocate for array.array() constructor
by Sven Rahmann Feb. 22, 2020

Feb. 22, 2020

At the moment, the array module of the standard library allows to create arrays of different numeric types and to initialize them from an iterable (eg, another array). What's missing is the possiblity to specify the final size of the array (number of items), especially for large arrays. I'm thinking of suffix arrays (a text indexing data structure) for large texts, eg the human genome and its reverse complement (about 6 billion characters from the alphabet ACGT). The suffix array is a long int … [View More]

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Implicit string literal concatenation considered harmful?
by Guido van Rossum March 14, 2018

March 14, 2018

I just spent a few minutes staring at a bug caused by a missing comma -- I got a mysterious argument count error because instead of foo('a', 'b') I had written foo('a' 'b'). This is a fairly common mistake, and IIRC at Google we even had a lint rule against this (there was also a Python dialect used for some specific purpose where this was explicitly forbidden). Now, with modern compiler technology, we can (and in fact do) evaluate compile-time string literal concatenation with the '+' … [View More]

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proposal: "python -m foo" should bind sys.modules['foo']
by Cameron Simpson Jan. 18, 2017

Jan. 18, 2017

Hello all, This is a writeup of a proposal I floated here: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2015-August/694905.html last Sunday. If the response is positive I wish to write a PEP. Briefly, it is a natural expectation in users that the command: python -m module_name ... used to invoke modules in "main program" mode on the command line imported the module as "module_name". It does not, it imports it as "__main__". An import within the program of "module_name" makes a new … [View More]instance of the module, which causes cognitive dissonance and has the side effect that now the program has two instances of the module. What I propose is that the above command line _should_ bind sys.modules['module_name'] as well as binding '__main__' as it does currently. I'm proposing that the python -m option have this effect (python pseudocode): % python -m module.name ... runs: # pseudocode, with values hardwired for clarity import sys M = new_empty_module(name='__main__', qualname='module.name') sys.modules['__main__'] = M sys.modules['module.name'] = M # load the module code from wherever (not necessarily a file - CPython # already must do this phase) M.execfile('/path/to/module/name.py') Specificly, this would have the following two changes to current practice: 1) the module is imported _once_, and bound to both its canonical name and also to __main__. 2) imported modules acquire a new attribute __qualname__ (analogous to the recent __qualname__ on functions). This is always the conanoical name of the module as resolved by the importer. For most modules __name__ will be the same as __qualname__, but for the "main" module __name__ will be '__main__'. This change has the following advantages: The current standard boilerplate: if __name__ == '__main__': ... invoke "main program" here ... continues to work unchanged. Importantly, if the program then issues "import module_name", it is already there and the existing instance is found and used. The thread referenced above outlines my most recent encounter with this and the trouble it caused me. Followup messages include some support for this proposed change, and some criticism. The critiquing article included some workarounds for this multiple module situation, but they were (1) somewhat dependent on modules coming from a file pathname and (2) cumbersome and require every end user to adopt these changes if affected by the situation. I'd like to avoid that. Cheers, Cameron Simpson <cs(a)zip.com.au> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw [View Less]

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solving multi-core Python
by Eric Snow June 3, 2016

June 3, 2016

tl;dr Let's exploit multiple cores by fixing up subinterpreters, exposing them in Python, and adding a mechanism to safely share objects between them. This proposal is meant to be a shot over the bow, so to speak. I plan on putting together a more complete PEP some time in the future, with content that is more refined along with references to the appropriate online resources. Feedback appreciated! Offers to help even more so! :) -eric -------- Python's multi-core story is murky at best. … [View More]Not only can we be more clear on the matter, we can improve Python's support. The result of any effort must make multi-core (i.e. parallelism) support in Python obvious, unmistakable, and undeniable (and keep it Pythonic). Currently we have several concurrency models represented via threading, multiprocessing, asyncio, concurrent.futures (plus others in the cheeseshop). However, in CPython the GIL means that we don't have parallelism, except through multiprocessing which requires trade-offs. (See Dave Beazley's talk at PyCon US 2015.) This is a situation I'd like us to solve once and for all for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it is a technical roadblock for some Python developers, though I don't see that as a huge factor. Regardless, secondly, it is especially a turnoff to folks looking into Python and ultimately a PR issue. The solution boils down to natively supporting multiple cores in Python code. This is not a new topic. For a long time many have clamored for death to the GIL. Several attempts have been made over the years and failed to do it without sacrificing single-threaded performance. Furthermore, removing the GIL is perhaps an obvious solution but not the only one. Others include Trent Nelson's PyParallels, STM, and other Python implementations.. Proposal ======= In some personal correspondence Nick Coghlan, he summarized my preferred approach as "the data storage separation of multiprocessing, with the low message passing overhead of threading". For Python 3.6: * expose subinterpreters to Python in a new stdlib module: "subinterpreters" * add a new SubinterpreterExecutor to concurrent.futures * add a queue.Queue-like type that will be used to explicitly share objects between subinterpreters This is less simple than it might sound, but presents what I consider the best option for getting a meaningful improvement into Python 3.6. Also, I'm not convinced that the word "subinterpreter" properly conveys the intent, for which subinterpreters is only part of the picture. So I'm open to a better name. Influences ======== Note that I'm drawing quite a bit of inspiration from elsewhere. The idea of using subinterpreters to get this (more) efficient isolated execution is not my own (I heard it from Nick). I have also spent quite a bit of time and effort researching for this proposal. As part of that, a number of people have provided invaluable insight and encouragement as I've prepared, including Guido, Nick, Brett Cannon, Barry Warsaw, and Larry Hastings. Additionally, Hoare's "Communicating Sequential Processes" (CSP) has been a big influence on this proposal. FYI, CSP is also the inspiration for Go's concurrency model (e.g. goroutines, channels, select). Dr. Sarah Mount, who has expertise in this area, has been kind enough to agree to collaborate and even co-author the PEP that I hope comes out of this proposal. My interest in this improvement has been building for several years. Recent events, including this year's language summit, have driven me to push for something concrete in Python 3.6. The subinterpreter Module ===================== The subinterpreters module would look something like this (a la threading/multiprocessing): settrace() setprofile() stack_size() active_count() enumerate() get_ident() current_subinterpreter() Subinterpreter(...) id is_alive() running() -> Task or None run(...) -> Task # wrapper around PyRun_*, auto-calls Task.start() destroy() Task(...) # analogous to a CSP process id exception() # other stuff? # for compatibility with threading.Thread: name ident is_alive() start() run() join() Channel(...) # shared by passing as an arg to the subinterpreter-running func # this API is a bit uncooked still... pop() push() poison() # maybe select() # maybe Note that Channel objects will necessarily be shared in common between subinterpreters (where bound). This sharing will happen when the one or more of the parameters to the function passed to Task() is a Channel. Thus the channel would be open to the (sub)interpreter calling Task() (or Subinterpreter.run()) and to the new subinterpreter. Also, other channels could be fed into such a shared channel, whereby those channels would then likewise be shared between the interpreters. I don't know yet if this module should include *all* the essential pieces to implement a complete CSP library. Given the inspiration that CSP is providing, it may make sense to support it fully. It would be interesting then if the implementation here allowed the (complete?) formalisms provided by CSP (thus, e.g. rigorous proofs of concurrent system models). I expect there will also be a _subinterpreters module with low-level implementation-specific details. Related Ideas and Details Under Consideration ==================================== Some of these are details that need to be sorted out. Some are secondary ideas that may be appropriate to address in this proposal or may need to be tabled. I have some others but these should be sufficient to demonstrate the range of points to consider. * further coalesce the (concurrency/parallelism) abstractions between threading, multiprocessing, asyncio, and this proposal * only allow one running Task at a time per subinterpreter * disallow threading within subinterpreters (with legacy support in C) + ignore/remove the GIL within subinterpreters (since they would be single-threaded) * use the GIL only in the main interpreter and for interaction between subinterpreters (and a "Local Interpreter Lock" for within a subinterpreter) * disallow forking within subinterpreters * only allow passing plain functions to Task() and Subinterpreter.run() (exclude closures, other callables) * object ownership model + read-only in all but 1 subinterpreter + RW in all subinterpreters + only allow 1 subinterpreter to have any refcounts to an object (except for channels) * only allow immutable objects to be shared between subinterpreters * for better immutability, move object ref counts into a separate table * freeze (new machinery or memcopy or something) objects to make them (at least temporarily) immutable * expose a more complete CSP implementation in the stdlib (or make the subinterpreters module more compliant) * treat the main interpreter differently than subinterpreters (or treat it exactly the same) * add subinterpreter support to asyncio (the interplay between them could be interesting) Key Dependencies ================ There are a few related tasks/projects that will likely need to be resolved before subinterpreters in CPython can be used in the proposed manner. The proposal could implemented either way, but it will help the multi-core effort if these are addressed first. * fixes to subinterpreter support (there are a couple individuals who should be able to provide the necessary insight) * PEP 432 (will simplify several key implementation details) * improvements to isolation between subinterpreters (file descriptors, env vars, others) Beyond those, the scale and technical scope of this project means that I am unlikely to be able to do all the work myself to land this in Python 3.6 (though I'd still give it my best shot). That will require the involvement of various experts. I expect that the project is divisible into multiple mostly independent pieces, so that will help. Python Implementations =================== They can correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand both Jython and IronPython already have subinterpreter support. I'll be soliciting feedback from the different Python implementors about subinterpreter support. C Extension Modules ================= Subinterpreters already isolate extension modules (and built-in modules, including sys). PEP 384 provides some help too. However, global state in C can easily leak data between subinterpreters, breaking the desired data isolation. This is something that will need to be addressed as part of the effort. [View Less]

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OrderedCounter and OrderedDefaultDict
by Ian Foote Feb. 12, 2016

Feb. 12, 2016

I recently wanted to use an OrderedCounter and an OrderedDefaultDict. After a bit of googling I discovered that OrderedCounter is quite easy to implement: from collections import Counter, OrderedDict class OrderedCounter(Counter, OrderedDict): 'Counter that remembers the order elements are first seen' def __repr__(self): return '%s(%r)' % (self.__class__.__name__, OrderedDict(self)) def __reduce__(self): return self.… [View More]

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Fwd: Why do equality tests between OrderedDict keys/values views behave not as expected?
by Alexandre Figura Jan. 21, 2016

Jan. 21, 2016

Hi, I recently compared OrderedDict instances while writing unit tests, and discovered an interesting behavior. If I create two ordered dictionaries with the same keys/values in the same order, I observe that their values are not equal when I compare them. I recently asked a question about this on Stackoverflow: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34312674/why-values-of-an-ordereddict-ar… Moreover, another user observed that keys of ordered dictionaries are compared in an order insensitive … [View More]

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find-like functionality in pathlib
by Ram Rachum Jan. 11, 2016

Jan. 11, 2016

What do you think about implementing functionality similar to the `find` utility in Linux in the Pathlib module? I wanted this today, I had a script to write to archive a bunch of files from a folder, and I decided to try writing it in Python rather than in Bash. But I needed something stronger than `Path.glob` in order to select the files. I wanted a regular expression. (In this particular case, I wanted to get a list of all the files excluding the `.git` folder and all files inside of it. Thanks, Ram.

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Where to put non-collection ABCs (was: Deprecating the old-style sequence protocol)
by Brett Cannon Jan. 1, 2016

Jan. 1, 2016

Speaking of using ABCs more, where should we put ABCs which have nothing to do with collections? As of right now all ABCs seem to get shoved into collections.abc, but e.g. Awaitable and Coroutine are not types of collections. I personally want to add a context manager ABC with a default __exit__. I opened http://bugs.python.org/issue25637 to discuss this, but I figured a wider discussion wouldn't hurt. Some suggest just putting the ABCs into the abc module. We could create an interfaces module … [View More](top-level or a submodule of ABC). The other option is to put the ABCs in subject-specific modules, so my context manager one would go into contextlib (either top-level or an abc submodule); don't know where the coroutine ones would go since it might be overloading asyncio if we out them there. Anyway, the key point is collections.abc is starting to get non-collections stuff and if we are going to start pushing ABCs more we should decide how we want to organize them in general in the stdlib and instead of dumping them into collections.abc. On Sun, Dec 27, 2015, 09:35 Guido van Rossum <guido(a)python.org> wrote: > I think there's a lot of interesting stuff in this thread. Personally I > don't think we should strive to distinguish between mappings and sequences > structurally. We should instead continue to encourage inheriting from (or > registering with) the corresponding ABCs. The goal is to ensure that > there's one best-practice way to distinguish mappings from sequences, and > it's by using isinstance(x, Sequence) or isinstance(x, Mapping). > > If we want some way to turn something that just defines __getitem__ and > __len__ into a proper sequence, it should just be made to inherit from > Sequence, which supplies the default __iter__ and __reversed__. > (Registration is *not* good enough here.) If we really want a way to turn > something that just supports __getitem__ into an Iterable maybe we can > provide an additional ABC for that purpose; let's call it a HalfSequence > until we've come up with a better name. (We can't use Iterable for this > because Iterable should not reference __getitem__.) > > I also think it's fine to introduce Reversible as another ABC and > carefully fit it into the existing hierarchy. It should be a one-trick pony > and be another base class for Sequence; it should not have a default > implementation. (But this has been beaten to death in other threads -- it's > time to just file an issue with a patch.) > > > -- > --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) > _______________________________________________ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas(a)python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ [View Less]

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Deprecating the old-style sequence protocol
by Andrew Barnert Dec. 31, 2015

Dec. 31, 2015

This idea seems to come up regularly, so maybe it would be good to actually discuss it out (and, if necessary, explicitly reject it). Most recently, at https://github.com/ambv/typehinting/issues/170, Guido said: > FWIW, maybe we should try to deprecate supporting iteration using the old-style protocol? It's really a very old backwards compatibility measure (from when iterators were first introduced). Then eventually we could do the same for reversing using the old-style protocol. The best … [View More]discussion I found was from a 2013 thread (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.ideas/23369/), which I'll quote below. Anyway, the main argument for eliminating the old-style sequence protocol is that, unlike most other protocols in Python, it can't actually be checked for (without iterating the values). Despite a bunch of explicit workaround code (which registers builtin sequence types with `Iterable`, checks for C-API mappings in `reversed`, etc.), you still get false negatives when type-checking types like Steven's at runtime or type-checking time, and you still get false positives from `iter` and `reversed` themselves (`reversed(MyCustomMapping({1:2, 3:4}))` or `iter(typing.Iterable)` won't give you a `TypeError`, they'll give you a useless iterator--which may throw some other exception later when trying to iterate it, but even that isn't reliable). I believe we could solve all of these problems by making `iter` and `reversed` raise a `TypeError`, without falling back to the old-style protocol, if the dunder method is `None` (like `hash`), change the ABC and static typer to use the same rules as `iter` and `reversed`, and add `__reversed__ = None` to `collections.abc.Mapping`. (See http://bugs.python.org/issue25864 and http://bugs.python.org/issue25958 for details.) Alternatively, if there were some way for a Python class to declare whether it's trying to be a mapping or a sequence or neither, as C API types do, I suppose that could be a solution. Or maybe the problems don't actually need to be solved. But obviously, deprecating the old-style sequence protocol would make the problems go away. --- Here's the argument against doing so: On 2013-09-22 23:46:37 GMT, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:37:52PM -0400, Terry Reedy wrote: >> On 9/22/2013 10:22 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: >>> >>> The __getitem__ fallback is a backwards >>> compatibility hack, not part of the formal definition of an iterable. >>> >> When I suggested that, by suggesting that the fallback *perhaps* could >> be called 'semi-deprecated, but kept for back compatibility' in the >> glossary entry, Raymond screamed at me and accused me of trying to >> change the language. He considers it an intended language feature that >> one can write a sequence class and not bother with __iter__. I guess we >> do not all agree ;-). >> > Raymond did not "scream", he wrote *one* word in uppercase for emphasis. > I quote: > >> It is NOT deprecated. People use and rely on this behavior. It is >> a guaranteed behavior. Please don't use the glossary as a place to >> introduce changes to the language. > > I agree, and I disagree with Nick's characterization of the sequence > protocol as a "backwards-compatibility hack". It is an elegant protocol > for implementing iteration of sequences, an old and venerable one that > predates iterators, and just as much of Python's defined iterable > behaviour as the business with calling next with no argument until it > raises StopIteration. If it were considered *merely* for backward > compatibility with Python 1.5 code, there was plenty of opportunity to > drop it when Python 3 came out. > > The sequence protocol allows one to write a lazily generated, > potentially infinite sequence that still allows random access to items. > Here's a toy example: > > py> class Squares: > ... def __getitem__(self, index): > ... return index**2 > ... > py> for sq in Squares(): > ... if sq > 9: break > ... print(sq) > 0 > 1 > 4 > 9 > > Because it's infinite, there's no value that __len__ can return, and no > need for a __len__. Because it supports random access to items, writing > this as an iterator with __next__ is inappropriate. Writing *both* is > unnecessary, and complicates the class for no benefit. As written, > Squares is naturally thread-safe -- two threads can iterate over the > same Squares object without interfering. Also, elsewhere in the thread, someone else pointed out another example (which I'm rewriting to make it fit better with Steven's): class TenSquares: def __len__(self): return 10 def __getitem__(self, index): if 0 <= index < 10: return index**2 raise IndexError You can iterate this, convert it to a `list`, call `reversed` on it, etc., all in only 6 lines of code. --- Guido's response was: > Hm. The example given there is a toy though. Something with a __getitem__ > that maps its argument to its square might as well be a mapping. I really > think it's time to slowly let go of this (no need to rush into removing > support, but we could still frown upon its use). And it's worth noting that making these examples work without the old-style sequence protocol isn't exactly hard: add a 1-line `__iter__` method, or a 1-line replacement for the old-style `iter`, or, for the second example, just inherit the `Sequence` ABC. Also, the thread-safety issue seems bogus. Any reasonable collection is thread-safe as an iterable. Presumably the counter-argument is that, as trivial as those changes are, they're still not nearly as trivial as the original code, and in a quick&dirty script or interactive session, it may be more than you want to do (especially since it involves importing a module you didn't otherwise need). But I'll leave it to the people who are strongly against the deprecation to explain it, rather than putting words in their mouths. --- Finally, as far as I can tell, the documentation of the old-style sequence protocol is in the library docs for `iter` and `reversed`, and the data model docs for `__reversed__` (but not `__iter__`), which say, respectively: > ... object must be a collection object which supports the iteration protocol (the __iter__() method), or it must support the sequence protocol (the __getitem__() method with integer arguments starting at 0). > ... seq must be an object which has a __reversed__() method or supports the sequence protocol (the __len__() method and the __getitem__() method with integer arguments starting at 0). > If the __reversed__() method is not provided, the reversed() built-in will fall back to using the sequence protocol (__len__() and __getitem__()). Objects that support the sequence protocol should only provide __reversed__() if they can provide an implementation that is more efficient than the one provided by reversed(). [View Less]

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