It seems the conversation has confused two related concepts:

1) The default bool() implementation (Truthiness) -- this is what the OP said was recommended by PEP 8: "For sequences, (strings, lists, tuples), use the fact that empty sequences are false:" -- there is some debate about that whether this is a good recommendation or not, but i don't think that's the OPs point. Rather:

2) That there is no standard way to explicitly test containers for "emptiness" - - there is only length, with the assumption that len(something) == 0 or not len(something) is a good way to test for emptiness.

I still don't see why length is not perfectly adequate, but i wonder if there are any  "containers" i.e.things that could be empty, in the std lib that don't support length.

Looking in the ABCs, a Container is something that supports `in`, and a Sized is something that supports len()-- so in theory, there could be a Container that does not have a length. Are there any in the std lib?

Perhaps the ABCs are instructive in another way here -- if we were to add a __empty__ or some such dunder, what ABC would require it? Container? or yet another one-method ABC?

-CHB


On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 8:39 PM David Mertz, Ph.D. <david.mertz@gmail.com> wrote:
I wanted to do a survey of various "aggregates" in Python to see if any stand out as making the usual `if stuff: ...` troublesome.  I wrote a little script at https://github.com/DavidMertz/LanguagePractice/blob/main/python/aggregates.py.

I'm being deliberately vague about an "aggregate."  It might not be a collection strictly speaking, but it is something that might seems to "contain" values in some sense.  Basically, I think that standard library and built-in stuff behaves per PEP8.  Some other libraries go their own way.  I throw in a linked-list implementation I found on PyPI.  I've never used it beyond this script; but per what it is, it cannot implement `len()` on O(1) (well, it *could* if it does extra bookkeeping; but then it's kinda a different thing).

In NumPy land, the np.empty vs. np.zeros case is another oddball.  On my system, my memory happened to have some prior value that wasn't zero; that could vary between runs, in principle.

These are the results:

Expr: '' | Value: ''
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: list() | Value: []
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: tuple() | Value: ()
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: dict() | Value: {}
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: set() | Value: set()
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: bytearray() | Value: bytearray(b'')
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: bytearray(1) | Value: bytearray(b'\x00')
  Truth: True | Length: 1
Expr: bytearray([0]) | Value: bytearray(b'\x00')
  Truth: True | Length: 1
Expr: array.array('i') | Value: array('i')
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: array.array('i', []) | Value: array('i')
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: Nothing() | Value: EmptyNamedTuple()
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: deque() | Value: deque([])
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: deque([]) | Value: deque([])
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: ChainMap() | Value: ChainMap({})
  Truth: False | Length: 0
Expr: queue.Queue() | Value: <queue.Queue object at 0x7f0940dd2190>
  Truth: True | Length: No length
Expr: asyncio.Queue() | Value: <Queue at 0x7f0940dd2190 maxsize=0>
  Truth: True | Length: No length
Expr: multiprocessing.Queue() | Value: <multiprocessing.queues.Queue object at 0x7f0940dd2190>
  Truth: True | Length: No length
Expr: np.ndarray(1,) | Value: array([5.e-324])
  Truth: True | Length: 1
Expr: np.ndarray((1,0)) | Value: array([], shape=(1, 0), dtype=float64)
  Truth: False | Length: 1
Expr: np.empty((1,)) | Value: array([5.e-324])
  Truth: True | Length: 1
Expr: np.zeros((1,)) | Value: array([0.])
  Truth: False | Length: 1
Expr: np.zeros((2,)) | Value: array([0., 0.])
  Truth: No Truthiness | Length: 2
Expr: np.ones((1,)) | Value: array([1.])
  Truth: True | Length: 1
Expr: np.ones((2,)) | Value: array([1., 1.])
  Truth: No Truthiness | Length: 2
Expr: pd.Series() | Value: Series([], dtype: float64)
  Truth: No Truthiness | Length: 0
Expr: pd.DataFrame() | Value: Empty DataFrame
  Truth: No Truthiness | Length: 0
Expr: xr.DataArray() | Value: <xarray.DataArray ()>
  Truth: True | Length: No length
Expr: linkedadt.LinkedList() | Value: <linkedadt.LinkedList object at 0x7f08d8d77f40>
  Truth: False | Length: 0



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