On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 6:06 PM Stefan Krah <skrah.temporarily@gmail.com> wrote:

> I hope you also recognize that this particular piece of mailing list
etiquette arose in a time where people did not have nice tooling to do the
work for them, which is part of the point of this discussion.

Have you actually *used* Gnus, mutt, slrn or even gmane.org? You
are again stating things with great certainty while I don't think
you know the subject.

I haven't used those tools. It would be enlightening if you explained how they can address the issues we've been discussing in this thread. That is what we're discussing here, after all--improving how we discuss things. I've done my part by explaining the potential benefits that Discourse can offer us in great detail, because that's what I know.

Regarding "stating things with great certainty", I'm not sure what you're referring to. I made some arguments, quoted people, and linked to stuff. Not sure what my crime is there. And my quote about "the older generations of developers" -- which you sneered at earlier with the "soap box" comment -- I explicitly prefaced with: "I'll also offer this conjecture: ..."

> OK, did I do it right this time?

No, try replying to one of your own posts on gmane.org and you'll see.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to see on gmane.org. I can see that this thread is on there, but I can't find the most recent messages.

The way I am quoting you now is: I am hitting "Reply" in Gmail, clearing out older parts of the thread, and replying inline to what you wrote. It's pretty simple.

If that's still not correct then I'm not sure how to satisfy you. All I can say is that I think it would be better if we had a way to solve mundane issues like this centrally, instead of pushing the responsibility onto each list user to piece together their own toolchain or workflow for doing the right thing.

> I think Discourse will make etiquette easier to follow by taking care of
repetitive tasks like this for people, instead of requiring that everyone
independently remember to do X, Y, and Z every time they post.

You don't need to: Any of the above options does it automatically.

Are Gnus, mutt, and slrn client-side tools? If they are, then we are pushing this responsibility onto every list user to find and use these tools correctly.

You also mentioned being able to respond to mail via gmane.org. Is that the standard way everyone is expected to interact with the list? If not, then you have the same problem.

Having a modern, web-based forum like Discourse which takes care of repetitive tasks like this centrally means everyone on the forum automatically has it taken care of. It's part of the interface of the forum, and everyone is using the same interface.

Discourse's UX is good enough that in many cases the user *can't* or is *extremely unlikely* to do the wrong thing when it comes to mundane, routine things like quoting people, replying, etc. I think that's great.

> And for the record: I’m really taken aback by how cynical your comments
are, and I apologize for ticking you off. I’ll do a better job of following
mailing list etiquette going forward.

It's not about the etiquette: If you come in here and tell us
that our tools are inferior, expect some pushback.

I don't think I've bashed anyone's tools on here as "inferior". My discussion has been limited to Discourse vs. mailing lists. As you yourself stated, I clearly don't know about tools like Gnus, mutt, and so forth, and I'm not going to bash something I don't know.

I *have* been arguing that a modern web-based forum solves common discussion issues in a way that mailing lists cannot match. But I think my arguments have been dispassionate and have not involved disparaging any tools out there as "inferior".

As for "coming in here", I guess you're telling me that I'm an outsider. Sure. And as for "pushback", I would make a distinction between pushback that is substantive in nature and focused on the problem at hand, and simple derision. They don't belong in the same category.

I for example think that http://try.discourse.org/ looks cluttered
and distracting.
 
Finally! An actual discussion of Discourse. And in this case, I agree with you.

I've gotten more accustomed to the layout over time, but I do remember being overwhelmed when I first discovered Discourse. I'd bet there are options to change the layout and reduce visual noise, but I don't know.

Nick