On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 5:10 PM Marko Ristin-Kaufmann firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
The original objection was that DbC in general is not beneficial; not that there are lacking tools for it (this probably got lost in the many messages on this thread). If you assume that there are no suitable tools for DbC, then yes, DbC is certainly not beneficial to any project since using it will be clumsy and difficult. It's a chicken-and-egg problem, so we need to assume that there are good tools for DbC in order for it to be beneficial.
Disagreed. I would most certainly NOT assume that every reader knows any particular syntax for such contracts. However, this is a weaker point.
The contracts are written as boolean expressions. While I agree that many programmers have a hard time with boolean expressions and quantifiers, I don't see this as a blocker to DbC. There is no other special syntax for DbC unless we decide to add it to the core language (which I don't see as probable). What I would like to have is a standard library so that inter-library interactions based on contracts are possible and an ecosystem could emerge around it.
It's easy to say that they're boolean expressions. But that's like saying that unit tests are just a bunch of boolean expressions too. Why do we have lots of different forms of test, rather than just a big fat "assert this and this and this and this and this and this"? Because the key to unit testing is not "boolean expressions", it's a language that can usefully describe what it is we're testing. Contracts aren't just boolean expressions - they're a language (or a mini-language) that lets you define WHAT the contract entails.
You might argue that a large proportion of PyPI projects will be "library-style" packages, where the main purpose is to export a bunch of functions. But even then, I'm not certain that they'd all benefit from DbC.
Thanks for this clarification (and the download-yt example)! I actually only had packages-as-libraries in mind, not the executable scripts; my mistake. So, yes, "any Pypi package" should be reformulated to "any library on Pypi" (meant to be used by a wider audience than the developers themselves).
Okay. Even with that qualification, though, I still think that not every library will benefit from this. For example, matplotlib's plt.show() method guarantees that... a plot will be shown, and the user will have dismissed it, before it returns. Unless you're inside Jupyter/iPython, in which case it's different. Or if you're in certain other environments, in which case it's different again. How do you define the contract for something that is fundamentally interactive?
You can define very weak contracts. For instance, input() guarantees that its return value is a string. Great! DbC doing the job of type annotations. Can you guarantee anything else about that string? Is there anything else useful that can be spelled easily?
I totally agree. The discussion related to DbC in my mind always revolved around these use cases where type annotations are beneficial as well. Thanks for pointing that out and I'd like to apologize for the confusion! For the future discussion, let's focus on these use cases and please do ignore the rest. I'd still say that there is a plethora of libraries published on Pypi (Is there a way to find out the stats?).
Ugh.... I would love to say "yes", but I can't. I guess maybe you could look at a bunch of requirements.txt files and see which things get dragged in that way? All you'll really get is heuristics at best, and even that, I don't know how to provide. Sorry.