Thus is x very hard problem— bug people are trying.


On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 5:39 AM Jelle Zijlstra <> wrote:
At the Language Summit a few days ago we discussed this problem. I wasn't involved in this discussion, but it's a hard one to solve.

You may be interested in HPy (, which aims to provide what you are looking for.

El dom, 23 abr 2023 a las 6:18, Evan Greenup via Python-ideas (<>) escribió:
Dear All

Python is a "glue" language, its dynamic nature has programming advantage and performance disadvantage.
The best way to use Python is write Python code for high-level stuff and use native programming language like C, Rust, Zig, V for low level stuff. Currently, there is library like PyO3 and so on.
However there is a lot of limitation in those library.
  1. The "FFI" library is implementation specific. For example, PyO3, it highly depend on specific version of CPython. If you use a different version of CPython, there is some work for you to do. If you don't use CPython, for example use another Python Implementation, This framework may not work.
  2. The project structure is rigid. When using something like PyO3. you must make your project structure following certain pattern, then finally produce a complete wheel package. The majority Python programmer does not write a whole Python project for a installable package and pack it up then install it. They are edit Python source file iteratively and run it locally.
  3. It is really ridiculous when you want to stick some item on the wall. You need to totally redesign this item and manufacture a new item to fit the glue you are going to use. As a glue language, Python should be designed to glue other native programming language as a feature of Python programming language itself not the tricks of certain variant of implementation.
It would be nice to add the feature in Python Standards (no matter what implementation is used) to satisfy the following capabilities:
  • The interface is universal across all variant and version of Python implementation (There might be protocol version update and may not backward-compatible, but it is not bounded with Python implementation). The overall effect is in some extent like JSON, but it is not a structured string, It is a lively data structure with in-memory representation, they are unified no matter what Python variant is used and what low level native language is used.
  • This mechanism is transparent to users, there is modules in standard library to support it. If user want, they can design a toy native programming language, and use Python to write a compiler for it. Then write a module with custom language then compile and import it. This mechanism provide user with maximum flexibility.
  • almost zero-cost abstraction. Even if it not depend on CPython tricks. But the central idea of this mechanism is still the dynamic linking feature provided by operating system. The detailed format will be slightly different. It doesn't introduce new stuff in nature. It doesn't spawn new process, nor launch a VM, and nor I/O operations is involved. It just make some basic data representation conversion and invoke the method in dynamic library.
This is just a raw idea. If it is valuable, it can take a discussion and make further steps.

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