On 19.01.2018 17:20, Guido van Rossum wrote:
On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 5:30 AM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com <mailto:mal@egenix.com>> wrote:
On 19.01.2018 05:38, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org <mailto:guido@python.org>> wrote: >> Can someone explain to me why this is such a controversial issue? > > I guess practicality versus purity is always controversial :-) > >> It seems reasonable to me to add new encodings to the stdlib that do the >> roundtripping requested in the first message of the thread. As long as they >> have new names that seems to fall under "practicality beats purity".
There are a few issues here:
* WHATWG encodings are mostly for decoding content in order to show it in the browser, accepting broken encoding data.
And sometimes Python apps that pull data from the web.
Python already has support for this by using one of the available error handlers, or adding new ones to suit the needs.
This seems cumbersome though. Why is that ?
Python 3 uses such error handlers for most of the I/O that's done with the OS already and for very similar reasons: dealing with broken data or broken configurations.
If we'd add the encodings, people will start creating more broken data, since this is what the WHATWG codecs output when encoding Unicode.
That's FUD. Only apps that specifically use the new WHATWG encodings would be able to consume that data. And surely the practice of web browsers will have a much bigger effect than Python's choice.
It's not FUD. I don't think we ought to encourage having Python create more broken data. The purpose of the WHATWG encodings is to help browsers deal with decoding broken data in a uniform way. It's not to generate more such data. That may be regarded as purists view, but also has a very practical meaning. The output of the codecs will only readable by browsers implementing the WHATWG encodings. Other tools receiving the data will run into the same decoding problems. Once you have Unicode, it's better to stay there and use UTF-8 for encoding to avoid any such issues.
As discussed, this could be addressed by making the WHATWG codecs decode-only.
But that would defeat the point of roundtripping, right?
Yes, intentionally. Once you have Unicode, the data should be encoded correctly back into UTF-8 or whatever legacy encoding is needed, fixing any issues while in Unicode. As always, it's better to explicitly address such problems than to simply punt on them and write back broken data.
* The use case seems limited to implementing browsers or headless implementations working like browsers.
That's not really general enough to warrant adding lots of new codecs to the stdlib. A PyPI package is better suited for this.
Perhaps, but such a package already exists and its author (who surely has read a lot of bug reports from its users) says that this is cumbersome.
The only critique I read was that registering the codecs is not explicit enough, but that's really only a nit, since you can easily have the codec package expose a register function which you then call explicitly in the code using the codecs.
* The WHATWG codecs do not only cover simple mapping codecs, but also many multi-byte ones for e.g. Asian languages.
I doubt that we'd want to maintain such codecs in the stdlib, since this will increase the download sizes of the installers and also require people knowledgeable about these variants to work on them and fix any issues.
Really? Why is adding a bunch of codecs so much effort? Surely the translation tables contain data that compresses well? And surely we don't need a separate dedicated piece of C code for each new codec?
For the simple charmap style codecs that's true. Not so for the Asian ones and the latter also do require dedicated C code (see Modules/cjkcodecs).
Overall, I think either pointing people to error handlers or perhaps adding a new one specifically for the case of dealing with control character mappings would provide a better maintenance / usefulness ratio than adding lots of new legacy codecs to the stdlib.
Wouldn't error handlers be much slower? And to me it seems a new error handler is a much *bigger* deal than some new encodings -- error handlers must work for *all* encodings.
Error handlers have a standard interface and so they will work for all codecs. Some codecs limits the number of handlers that can be used, but most accept all registered handlers. If a handler is too slow in Python, it can be coded in C for speed.
BTW: WHATWG pushes for always using UTF-8 as far as I can tell from their website.
As does Python. But apparently it will take decades more to get there.
Yes indeed, so let's not add even more confusion by adding more variants of the legacy encodings. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jan 19 2018)
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