Can you explain why Python should behave differently than other languages? Python:
math.inf == 2 * math.inf True
Infinity == 2 * Infinity
JavaScript: true Wolfram Alpha: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=inf+%3D+2+*+inf+%3D+3+*+inf ∞ = 2∞ = 3∞ True On Sun, 2020-10-11 at 17:39 -0400, Wes Turner wrote: No, 2 times something is greater than something. Something over somethi ng is 1. If we change the division axiom to be piecewise with an exception only for infinity, we could claim that any problem involving division of a s ymbol is unsolvable because the symbol could be infinity. This is incorrect: x / 2 is unsolvable because x could be infinity x / 2 > x / 3 (where x > 0; Z+) is indeterminate because if x is infini ty, then they are equal. assert 1 / 0 != 2 / 0 assert 2*inf > inf assert inf / inf == 1 I should have said capricious (not specious). I'm again replying to the main thread because this is relevant: there would need to be changes t o tests in order to return (scalar times) infinity instead of ZeroDivis ionError. We should not discard the scalar in scalar*infinity expressions. On Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 5:18 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:07 AM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wro
te:
So you're arguing that the scalar is irrelevant? That `2*inf == inf`?
I disagree because: ```2*inf > inf```
On what basis? If you start by assuming that infinity is a number, then sure, you're going to deduce that double it must be a greater number. But you're just concluding your own assumption, not proving anything.
And:
```# Given that: inf / inf = 1
Is that the case?
from math import inf inf / inf nan
# When we solve for symbol x: 2*inf*x = inf 2*x = 1 x = 1/2
# If we discard the scalar instead: 2*inf*x = inf inf*x = inf x = 1
# I think it's specious to argue that there are infinity solutions
; that axioms of symbolic mathematics do not apply because infinity
```
Once again, you start by assuming that infinity is a number, and that
you can divide by it (which is what happens when you "solve for x" by
removing the infinities). You can't prove something by first assuming
it.
"Infinity" isn't a number. In the IEEE 754 system, it is a value, but
it's still not a number (although it's distinct from Not A Number, just to confuse everyone). In mathematics, it's definitely not an actual number or value.
ChrisA ______________________________
On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 5:04 PM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wrote :
So you're arguing that the scalar is irrelevant?That `2*inf == inf`?
I disagree because: ```2*inf > inf``` And:
```# Given that: inf / inf = 1
# When we solve for symbol x: 2*inf*x = inf 2*x = 1 x = 1/2
# If we discard the scalar instead: 2*inf*x = inf inf*x = inf x = 1
# I think it's specious to argue that there are infinity solutions;
that axioms of symbolic mathematics do not apply because infinity ```
This is relevant to the (now- forked) main thread if the plan is to return inf/- inf/+inf instead of raising ZeroDivisionError; so I'm replying to the
main thread.
On Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 4:10 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote
: On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 5:06 AM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wro
te:
SymPy ComplexInfinity, 1/0 < 2/0, *tests* for symbolic results
FWIW, SymPy (a CAS: Computer Algebra System) has Infinity, Negative
Infinity, ComplexInfinity.
Regarding a symbolic result for 1/0:
If 1/0 is infinity (because 0 goes into 1 infinity times), is 2/0 2*inifnity (because 0 goes into 2 2 times more than into 1)
If you try to treat "infinity" as an actual number, you're inevitably
going to run into paradoxes. Consider instead: 1/x tends towards +∞ a
s x tends towards 0 (if x starts out positive), therefore we consider that 1/0 is +∞. By that logic, the limit of 2/0 is the exact same thing. It's still not a perfect system, and division by zero is alway
s going to cause problems, but it's far less paradoxical if you don't try to treat 2/0 as different from 1/0 :)
BTW, you're technically correct, in that 2/0 would be the same as 2 *
(whatever 1/0 is), but that's because 2*x tends towards +∞ as x tends
towards +∞, meaning that 2*∞ is also ∞.
ChrisA
On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 2:03 PM Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wro
te:
SymPy ComplexInfinity, 1/0 < 2/0, *tests* for symbolic results
FWIW, SymPy (a CAS: Computer Algebra System) has Infinity, Negative
Infinity, ComplexInfinity. Regarding a symbolic result for 1/0:
If 1/0 is infinity (because 0 goes into 1 infinity times), is 2/0 2*inifnity (because 0 goes into 2 2 times more than into 1)
A proper CAS really is advisable. FWIU, different CAS have differen
t outputs for the above problem (most just disregard the scalar bec
ause it's infinity so who care if that cancels out later).
Where are the existing test cases for arithemetic calculations with
(scalar times) IEEE-754 int, +inf, or -inf as the output?
On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 1:54 AM David Mertz <mertz@gnosis.cx> wrote
:
Thanks so much Ben for documenting all these examples. I've been
frustrated by the inconsistencies, but hasn't realized all of tho
se you note.
It would be a breaking change, but I'd really vastly prefer if al
most all of those OverflowErrors and others were simply infinitie
s. That's much closer to the spirit of IEEE-754.
The tricky case is 1./0. Division is such an ordinary operation,
and it's so easy to get zero in a variable accidentally. That one
still feels like an exception, but yes 1/1e-323 vs. 1/1e- 324 would them remain a sore spot.
Likewise, a bunch of operations really should be NaN that are exc
eptions now.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 5:26 PM Ben Rudiak- Gould <benrudiak@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 9:36 AM Stephen J. Turnbull <turnbull. stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
Christopher Barker writes: > IEEE 754 is a very practical standard -- it was well designed, and is > widely used and successful. It is not perfect, and in cert
ain use cases, it > may not be the best choice. But it's a really good idea to
keep to that > standard by default.
I feel the same way; I really wish Python was better about foll
owing IEEE 754.
I agree, but Python doesn't. It raises on some infs (general
ly speaking, true infinities), and returns inf on others (genera
lly speaking, overflows).
It seems to be very inconsistent. From testing just now:
* math.lgamma(0) raises "ValueError: math domain error"
* math.exp(1000) raises "OverflowError: math range error"
* math.e ** 1000 raises "OverflowError: (34, 'Result too large'
)"
* (math.e ** 500) * (math.e ** 500) returns inf
* sum([1e308, 1e308]) returns inf
* math.fsum([1e308, 1e308]) raises "OverflowError: intermediate
overflow in fsum"
* math.fsum([1e308, inf, 1e308]) returns inf
* math.fsum([inf, 1e308, 1e308]) raises "OverflowError: interme
diate overflow in fsum"
* float('1e999') returns inf
* float.fromhex('1p1024') raises "OverflowError: hexadecimal va
lue too large to represent as a float"
I get the impression that little planning has gone into this. T
here's no consistency in the OverflowError messages. 1./0. rais
es ZeroDivisionError which isn't a subclass of OverflowError. l
gamma(0) raises a ValueError, which isn't even a subclass of Ar
ithmeticError. The function has a pole at 0 with a well- defined two- sided limit of +inf. If it isn't going to return +inf then it o
ught to raise ZeroDivisionError, which should obviously be a su
bclass of OverflowError.
Because of the inconsistent handling of overflow, many function
s aren't even monotonic. exp(2*x) returns a float for x <= 709.
782712893384, raises OverflowError for 709.782712893384 < x <=
8.98846567431158e+307, and returns a float for x > 8.9884656743
1158e+307.
1./0. is not a true infinity. It's the reciprocal of a number t
hat may have underflowed to zero. It's totally inconsistent to
return inf for 1/1e-323 and raise an exception for 1/1e- 324, as Python does.
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