Now OPP is already hard to teach to my students, but if I have to add this to the mix, I will just have to tell them to copy / paste it blindly for a long time before I can get to the point they can understand what it does.
About the teachability, some remarks: 1. You can still just skip it. I presume you don't teach all the advanced metaclass stuff right away either, even though it is part of core Python.
2. Is it really that complicated? attr.s is just a normal Python function, which adds some members to a class. You don't even have to use the decorator @ syntax, that is just a convenience. To me this seems easier to teach than yet another dedicated syntax.
2017-05-17 10:15 GMT+02:00 Michel Desmoulin email@example.com:
Le 17/05/2017 à 07:22, Guido van Rossum a écrit :
On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Juancarlo Añez <firstname.lastname@example.org mailto:email@example.com> wrote:
What I like about attrs is: * The class level declaration of instance attributes * That the reasonable *init*, *repr*, and *eq* are generated
OK, the former should be doable using PEP 526 (the type is stored in __annotations__ and the default in the class dict given to the metaclass), while the latter should be doable using a standard metaclass -- assuming we can agree on what the "reasonable" __init__, __repr__ and __eq__ should do.
I don’t like the excessive wordiness in attrs,
Really? @attr.s is wordy? :-) I think it's deadly cute. (The only library I've ever seen that did something worse was "monocle" which used @_o.)
import attr @attr.s
... class Point: ... x = attr.ib(default=42) ... y = attr.ib(default=attr.Factory(list))
Is pretty wordy compared to something like another language would do such as:
class Point: int x = 42 list y = 
Now I get that:
- Python already has a similar syntax creating class attributes.
- You can't put mutable objects here.
- attr does more since it generates dunder methods.
But having an import, a decorator and verbose calls to attr.ib does not feel like idiomatic Python at all. Python is an elegant and expressive language. This is none of the above. Also Python is beginner friendly. Now OPP is already hard to teach to my students, but if I have to add this to the mix, I will just have to tell them to copy / paste it blindly for a long time before I can get to the point they can understand what it does.
We should be able to find a middle ground.
First, if we have something LIKE attr, should it need an import? Basic data structures may not require an import to work. async/await are way better than import @asyncio.coroutine.
Secondly, while I really, really, really want this feature, I think we should not rush it.
Some ideas have to be explored.
Adding keywords for it ? I know adding a keyword is the worst thing one can suggest on this list ever. But it has to be mentioned because most other languages do it this way.
class Point: instancevar x = 42 instancevar y = lazy  # we add a debate about this a few months ago
Adding a special syntax for it ? ruby has something similar.
class Point: @x = 42 @@y = list
Upgrading the class constructor? It does not address the mutablility issue though.
class Point(x=42, y=)
class Point(metaclass=autoclass(x=42, y=lazy )): pass
@args(x=42) @factory_args(y=list) @autodunder() class Point: pass
@autoclass( x=42 y=autoclass.lazy(list) ) class Point: pass
Just adding attrs, which is a workaround to a missing feature in Python, as a boiler plate and calling it a day seems unwise.
Don't get me wrong, I like attrs, I like asyncio and I like the whole battery included concept. But we lived without it until now, so let's not go too fast on this.
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