On 04Aug2015 23:01, Eric Snow ericsnowcurrently@gmail.com wrote:

On Aug 4, 2015 8:30 PM, "Cameron Simpson" cs@zip.com.au wrote:

...

This is a writeup of a proposal I floated here: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2015-August/694905.html last Sunday. If the response is positive I wish to write a PEP.

Be sure to read through PEP 495.

Hmm. Done:

http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0495/

Was there something specific I should have been looking for in there?

Cheers, Cameron Simpson cs@zip.com.au

Raw data, like raw sewage, needs some processing before it can be spread around. The opposite is true of theories. - James A. Carr jac@scri.fsu.edu

On 05Aug2015 02:14, Eric Snow ericsnowcurrently@gmail.com wrote:

On Aug 4, 2015 11:46 PM, "Cameron Simpson" cs@zip.com.au wrote:

...

On 04Aug2015 23:01, Eric Snow ericsnowcurrently@gmail.com wrote:

...

Be sure to read through PEP 495.

Sorry, I meant 395.

Ah, ok, many thanks. I've now read this, particularly this section:

http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0395/#fixing-pickling-without-breaking...

I see that Guido has lent Nick the time machine, as that section outlines a scheme almost word for word what I propose. Though not quite.

I see that this was withdrawn, and I after reading the whole PEP and the withdrawal statement at the top I think there are two probalems with the PEP. One is that, as stated, several of these issues have since been addressed elsewhere (though not my issue). The other is that it tried to address a whole host of issues which are related more by sharing the import system than necessarily being closely related of themselves, though clearly there are several scenarios that need considering to ensure that one fix doesn't make other things worse.

I still wish to put forth my proposal on its own, probably PEPed, for the following reasons:

(a) at present the multiple import via __main__/"python -m" is still not fixed

(b) that the fix here:

http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0395/#fixing-dual-imports-of-the-main-...

seems more oriented around keeping sys.path sane than directly avoiding a dual import

(c) my suggestion both reuses __qualname__ proposal almost as PEP495 suggested

(d) can't break anything because modules do not presently have a __qualname__

(e) would automatically remove a very surprising edge case that is very easy to trip over i.e. by doing nothing very weird, just plain old imports.

Therefore I'd still like commentry on my quite limited and small proposal, with an eye to PEPing it and actually getting it approved.

Cheers, Cameron Simpson cs@zip.com.au

Yesterday, I was running a CNC plasma cutter that's controlled by Windows XP. This is a machine that moves around a plasma torch that cuts thick steel plate. �A "New Java update is available" window popped up while I was working. �Not good. - John Nagle

Hello,

On Wed, 5 Aug 2015 02:14:55 -0600 Eric Snow ericsnowcurrently@gmail.com wrote:

On Aug 4, 2015 11:46 PM, "Cameron Simpson" cs@zip.com.au wrote:

...

On 04Aug2015 23:01, Eric Snow ericsnowcurrently@gmail.com wrote:

...

Be sure to read through PEP 495.

Sorry, I meant 395.

I'm sorry for possibly hijacking this thread, but it touches very much issue I had on my mind for a while: being able to run modules inside package as normal scripts. As this thread already has few people knowledgeable of peculiarities of package imports, perhaps they can suggest something.

Scenario:

There's a directory ("pkg" (representing Python namespace package)), and inside it, there's bar.py of not relevant content and foo.py with "from . import bar". What I'd like to do is (while inside "pkg" directory):

python3 foo.py

Current behavior:

SystemError: Parent module '' not loaded, cannot perform relative import

Expected behavior:

"from . import bar" in foo.py is successful.

-eric

Paul Sokolovsky pmiscml@gmail.com writes:

I find it quite a sign of problem, because if one accepts that one can't just run a script right away, but needs to do extra steps, then well, that enterprisey niche is pretty crowded and there're more choices how to make it more complicated.

Python's BDFL has spoken of running modules with relative import as top-level scripts:

I'm -1 on this and on any other proposed twiddlings of the __main__ machinery. The only use case seems to be running scripts that happen to be living inside a module's directory, which I've always seen as an antipattern. To make me change my mind you'd have to convince me that it isn't.

URL:https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2007-April/006793.html

He doesn't describe (that I can find) what makes him think it's an antipattern, so I'm not clear on how he expects to be convinced it's a valid pattern. Nonetheless, that appears to be the hurdle you'd need to confront.

On 6 August 2015 at 10:07, Cameron Simpson cs@zip.com.au wrote:

I suspect "How Reloading Will Work" would need to track both module.__name__ and module.__spec__.name to reattach the module to both entires in sys.modules.

Conveniently, the fact that reloading rewrites the global namespace of the existing module, rather than creating the new module, means that the dual references won't create any new problems relating to multiple references - we already hit those issues due to the fact that modules refer directly to each from their module namespaces.

I'd like to have a go at addressing just the change I outline above, in the interests of just getting it done. Is that too narrow a change or PEP topic?

PEPs can be used for quite small things if we want to check for edge cases, and the interaction between __main__ and the rest of the import system is a truly fine source of those :)

Are there specific other things I should be considering/addressing that might be affected by my suggestion?

Using __spec__.name for pickling: http://bugs.python.org/issue19702 Proposed runpy refactoring to reduce the special casing for __main__: http://bugs.python.org/issue19982

Also, where do I find to source for runpy to preruse?

It's a standard library module: https://hg.python.org/cpython/file/default/Lib/runpy.py

"_run_module_as_main" is the module level function that powers the "-m" switch.

Actually *implementing* this change should be as simple as changing the line:

main_globals = sys.modules["__main__"].__dict__

to instead be:

main_module = sys.modules["__main__"] sys.modules[mod_spec.name] = main_module main_globals = main_module.__dict__

The PEP is mainly useful to more widely *advertise* the semantic change, since having the module start being accessible under both names has the potential to cause problems. In particular, I'll upgrade the pickle issue to something that *needs* to be addressed before this change can be made, as there will be programs that are working today because they'll be dual importing the main module, and then pickling objects from the properly imported one, which then unpickle correctly in other processes (even if __main__ is different).

Preventing the dual import without also fixing the pickle compatibility issue when pickling __main__ objects would thus have the potential to break currently working code.

Cheers, Nick.

Hello,

On Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:57:19 +1000 Nick Coghlan ncoghlan@gmail.com wrote:

[]

...

"I'm -1 on this and on any other proposed twiddlings of the

__main__ machinery. The only use case seems to be running scripts that happen to be living inside a module's directory, which I've always seen as an antipattern. To make me change my mind you'd have to convince me that it isn't."

<URL:https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2007-April/006793.html>

He doesn't describe (that I can find) what makes him think it's an antipattern, so I'm not clear on how he expects to be convinced it's a valid pattern.

While Nick's PEP-0395 lists enough things in Python import system which may confuse casual users (and which thus should raise alarm for all Python advocates, who think it's nice, easy-to-use language), I'd like to elaborate on my particular usecase.

So, when you start a new "python library", you probably start it as a single-file module. And it's easy to play with it for both you and your users - just make another file in the same dir as your module, add "import my_module" to it, voila. At some point, you may decide that library is too big for a single file, and needs splitting. Which of course means converting a module to a package. And of course, when you import "utils", you want to be sure it imports your utils, not something else, which means using relative imports.

But then suddenly, you no longer can drop your test scripts in the same directory where code is (like you did it before), but need to drop it level up, which may be not always convenient. And it would be one thing if it required extra step to run scripts located inside package dir (casual-user-in-me hunch feeling would be that PYTHONPATH needs to be set to ..), but we talk about not being able to do it at all.

It's an anti-pattern because doing it fundamentally confuses the import system's internal state: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0395/#why-are-my-imports-broken

Excellent PEP, Nick, it took some time to read thru it and references, but it answered all my questions. After reading it, it's hard to disagree that namespace packages support, a simplification and clarification in itself, conflicted and blocked an automagic way to resolve imports confusion for the user. But then indeed a logical solution is to give user's power to explicitly resolve this issue, if implicit no longer can work - by letting -m accept relative module paths, as you show below.

It's also a discovery for me that -m's functionality appears to be handled largely on stdlib side using runpy module, and that's the main purpose of that module. I'll look into prototyping relative import support when I have time.

And Nick, if you count votes for reviving PEP-395, +1 for that, IMHO, it's much worthy work than e.g. yet another (3rd!) string templating variant (still adhoc and limited, e.g. not supporting control statements).

Relative imports from the main module just happen to be a situation where the failure is an obvious one rather than subtle state corruption.

...

Nonetheless, that appears to be the hurdle you'd need to confront.

This came up more recently during the PEP 420 discussions, when the requirement to include __init__.py to explicitly mark package directories was eliminated. This means there's no longer any way for the interpreter to reliably infer from the filesystem layout precisely where in the module hierarchy you intended a module to live. See https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0420/#discussion for references.

However, one of the subproposals from PEP 395 still offers a potential fix: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0395/#id24

That proposes to allow explicit relative imports at the command line, such that Paul's example could be correctly invoked as:

python3 -m ..pkg.foo

It would also be possible to provide a syntactic shorthand for submodules of top level packages:

python3 -m .foo

The key here is that the interpreter is being explicitly told that the current directory is inside a package, as well as how far down in the package hierarchy it lives, and can adjust the way it sets sys.path[0] accordingly before proceeding on to import "pkg.foo" as __main__.

That should be a relatively uncomplicated addition to runpy._run_module_as_main that could be rolled into Cameron's PEP plans. Steps required:

• count leading dots in the supplied mod_name
• remove "leading_dots-1" trailing directory names from sys.path[0]
• strip the leading dots from mod_name before continuing with the rest

of the function

• in the special case of only 1 leading dot, remove the final

directory segment from sys.path[0] and prepend it to mod_name with a dot separator

Cheers, Nick.

-- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/