Hello! I very much hope I do not embarrass the audience but people can we return back to email etiquette? Inline quoting instead of top-posting, proper trimming instead of overquoting, an empty line to separate quoted text from the reply. Sorry for the noise but can I ask at least? Yes, I am an old fart joined the Net at 1991, but I find netiquette really useful for effective communication and deviations from it inconvenient and annoying. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
Unfortunately, you're fighting against the default behaviour of many current email clients. As far as I can tell, they're written on the assumption of conversational email chains amongst small numbers of people rather than potentially sprawling permanently archived mailing list threads with multiple branches and a large number of participants. Even the Gmail web client starts with the cursor above the quoted text (although it places the signature block after it). The big pain though is answering email on a (not-so-)smartphone - I know the Android Gmail client places both cursor and signature above the quoted message, and fixing the formatting is annoying enough that the only two realistic choices are either top posting or not replying at all (and I'll often choose to wait until I'm back at a machine with a full keyboard for exactly that reason). Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On Jan 10, 2012, at 09:53 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
Unfortunately, you're fighting against the default behaviour of many current email clients.
We've been fighting damaged email clients for probably as long as there has been email. Yes it's a futile fight despite that mail client authors have known these things for a bazillion years. Oleg's probably not as old or farty as me, but I appreciate him at least reminding people of these conventions. Being aware of them, perhaps we'll all take just a few extra seconds to make sure our posts are more readable for everyone. Cheers, -Barry
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 09:53:05PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote:
I do this with the assumption that subscribers to python mailing lists are developers and powerful users who understand what's good and what's bad and can configure their software accordingly. Defaults are for mere mortals. ;-)
The big pain though is answering email on a (not-so-)smartphone
I know and I can bear this particular situation. People usually don't participate in long and complex discussions using small screen clients, and short top-posted notes are bearable. Especially if the rest is trimmed. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 21:53:05 +1000 Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
The android client K-9 is better behaved. I find it more usable in general than the Gmail client (or Google's mail client, for matter that). To me, the real issue is proper editing more than where the quote winds up. If you're just going to fire off a quick quip, editing the quote makes it a lot more work. If you're actually taking time to think about what you're saying, then editing the quote is a minor bit of work, and may well help with the composition of the message. Basically, top posting says "I didn't think about this, just shot off a reply." Bottom posting beneath an unedited quote says "I'm an old fart who didn't think about this, just shot off a reply." Taking the time to properly edit the quoted text says "I thought about what I'm saying, and took the time to remove the irrelevant." Final comment: I saw a number of "My mail reader hides the quotes" replies. If "get a better mailer" is an acceptable response, then consider it used if your mailer makes top posting the easy option. <mike
Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
But that's the right behaviour: for deleting unnecessary quoted text and writing inline responses, the natural way to work is from top to bottom; so starting the cursor at the top is correct. (only half-joking :-)
Yes. If one knows enough to feel the need to apologise for one's email client, then one also knows enough to wait until a better email client is available. No apology necessary. -- \ “Know what I hate most? Rhetorical questions.” —Henry N. Camp | `\ | _o__) | Ben Finney
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
+1 In good old times your usenet client (nn) would say: This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire civilized world. Your message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. Are you absolutely sure that you want to do this? [y / n] The economic realities of the Internet changed since that program was in wide use, but it is still true that any time you save by getting your reply out sooner is not worth it if it will cost untold hours to the global community for the rest of the life of the list archive. A hint to Gmail users: if you highlight a portion of the message before hitting reply, only that portion will be quoted.
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Alexander Belopolsky <alexander.belopolsky@gmail.com> wrote:
A hint to Gmail users: if you highlight a portion of the message before hitting reply, only that portion will be quoted.
Great tip! Note that you will also have to enable it from the Gmail Labs.
On 10Jan2012 21:53, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote: | On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote: | > I very much hope I do not embarrass the audience but people can we | > return back to email etiquette? Inline quoting instead of top-posting, | > proper trimming instead of overquoting, an empty line to separate quoted | > text from the reply. | | Unfortunately, you're fighting against the default behaviour of many | current email clients. [...] Even the Gmail web client starts with the | cursor above the quoted text [...] At Google one convention was that this is a cue to start at the top of the quoted text and trim rubbish aggressively, and inline one's replies. Of course that is a workflow mindset chosen to overcome this bad UI choice:-) Cheers, -- Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> DoD#743 http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/ Would you remember a one-line .sig? - Paul Thompson, thompson@apple.com
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 07:15:07AM -0500, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
I am not going to mandate anything (first, I don't have power). Anything is acceptable. But decide for yourself what is convenient *for you*. Imagine you are reading through a big and complex discussion with many threads. Or think about looking for information in the mailing list(s) archive. How much excessive information can you bear? What posing style would be the best in that cases? It is easy to see the dilemma. It's convenient for a poster to do a quick reply - hence top-posting without trimming. But that's inconvenient for readers and especially for archive browsers. So if you are going to be a long-term participator wouldn't it be in the public interests if you spend a few additional seconds properly formatting your replies? It's in your interests too because sooner or later you will return to your own discussions in the archive. That's my humble opinion. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
I don't really understand the objection. My mail client hides unbroken quotes at the bottom of an email, so that I don't see anything except what you quoted (if I read my own email), plus my signature. I take it yours doesn't do this? -- Devin
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree that Pipermail (Mailman's default interface) suxx for browsing threads and archives, but Google Groups are able to handle that pretty well https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/python-ideas -- anatoly t.
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 08:13:42AM -0500, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
When I do googling through web-archives I use web browser to read what I found. Google, in my experience, produces the most relevant results. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On 10Jan2012 17:30, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote: | On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 08:13:42AM -0500, Devin Jeanpierre wrote: | > I don't really understand the objection. My mail client hides unbroken | > quotes at the bottom of an email, so that I don't see anything except | > what you quoted (if I read my own email), plus my signature. I take it | > yours doesn't do this? | | When I do googling through web-archives I use web browser to read | what I found. Google, in my experience, produces the most relevant | results. It is worth mentioning (since I routinely see it missed it these discussions) that leaving huge chunks of untrimmed quotes makes it much harder to find the _relevant_ archived message because of all the irrelevant keyword hits. Quote trimming helps put relevant stuff in the email flow and keeps irrelevant stuff out. Cheers, -- Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> DoD#743 http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/ I swear to god, officer, I'm fixing this bridge. Just go divert traffic.
Devin Jeanpierre writes:
Mine does not, and I like it that way, because almost all the mail I receive is either very short threads where it doesn't matter, or related to fora where the vast majority of participants follow the standard netiquette conventions of interlinear response and fairly aggressive trimming. It is often the case that the trailing text is useful for establishing context (because if it wasn't the poster would have trimmed it). I believe that the top-posting style works well in business because threads are either short, or almost everybody is almost always on the same page anyway, and occasionally refers to something buried deeper in the thread. Also, in most cases any conflicts will be settled more or less arbitrarily by the boss's intuition, so extended analysis with precise rebuttals is rare. It sucks in technical discussion, because people have interesting things to say (aka, conflicting analyses that go beyond Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions one-liners).
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 08:36:04PM +0200, Yuval Greenfield wrote:
And of course everyone and his brother use GMail? Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
Unfortunately, you're fighting against the default behaviour of many current email clients. As far as I can tell, they're written on the assumption of conversational email chains amongst small numbers of people rather than potentially sprawling permanently archived mailing list threads with multiple branches and a large number of participants. Even the Gmail web client starts with the cursor above the quoted text (although it places the signature block after it). The big pain though is answering email on a (not-so-)smartphone - I know the Android Gmail client places both cursor and signature above the quoted message, and fixing the formatting is annoying enough that the only two realistic choices are either top posting or not replying at all (and I'll often choose to wait until I'm back at a machine with a full keyboard for exactly that reason). Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On Jan 10, 2012, at 09:53 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
Unfortunately, you're fighting against the default behaviour of many current email clients.
We've been fighting damaged email clients for probably as long as there has been email. Yes it's a futile fight despite that mail client authors have known these things for a bazillion years. Oleg's probably not as old or farty as me, but I appreciate him at least reminding people of these conventions. Being aware of them, perhaps we'll all take just a few extra seconds to make sure our posts are more readable for everyone. Cheers, -Barry
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 09:53:05PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote:
I do this with the assumption that subscribers to python mailing lists are developers and powerful users who understand what's good and what's bad and can configure their software accordingly. Defaults are for mere mortals. ;-)
The big pain though is answering email on a (not-so-)smartphone
I know and I can bear this particular situation. People usually don't participate in long and complex discussions using small screen clients, and short top-posted notes are bearable. Especially if the rest is trimmed. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 21:53:05 +1000 Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
The android client K-9 is better behaved. I find it more usable in general than the Gmail client (or Google's mail client, for matter that). To me, the real issue is proper editing more than where the quote winds up. If you're just going to fire off a quick quip, editing the quote makes it a lot more work. If you're actually taking time to think about what you're saying, then editing the quote is a minor bit of work, and may well help with the composition of the message. Basically, top posting says "I didn't think about this, just shot off a reply." Bottom posting beneath an unedited quote says "I'm an old fart who didn't think about this, just shot off a reply." Taking the time to properly edit the quoted text says "I thought about what I'm saying, and took the time to remove the irrelevant." Final comment: I saw a number of "My mail reader hides the quotes" replies. If "get a better mailer" is an acceptable response, then consider it used if your mailer makes top posting the easy option. <mike
Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> writes:
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
But that's the right behaviour: for deleting unnecessary quoted text and writing inline responses, the natural way to work is from top to bottom; so starting the cursor at the top is correct. (only half-joking :-)
Yes. If one knows enough to feel the need to apologise for one's email client, then one also knows enough to wait until a better email client is available. No apology necessary. -- \ “Know what I hate most? Rhetorical questions.” —Henry N. Camp | `\ | _o__) | Ben Finney
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
+1 In good old times your usenet client (nn) would say: This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire civilized world. Your message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. Are you absolutely sure that you want to do this? [y / n] The economic realities of the Internet changed since that program was in wide use, but it is still true that any time you save by getting your reply out sooner is not worth it if it will cost untold hours to the global community for the rest of the life of the list archive. A hint to Gmail users: if you highlight a portion of the message before hitting reply, only that portion will be quoted.
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Alexander Belopolsky <alexander.belopolsky@gmail.com> wrote:
A hint to Gmail users: if you highlight a portion of the message before hitting reply, only that portion will be quoted.
Great tip! Note that you will also have to enable it from the Gmail Labs.
On 10Jan2012 21:53, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote: | On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote: | > I very much hope I do not embarrass the audience but people can we | > return back to email etiquette? Inline quoting instead of top-posting, | > proper trimming instead of overquoting, an empty line to separate quoted | > text from the reply. | | Unfortunately, you're fighting against the default behaviour of many | current email clients. [...] Even the Gmail web client starts with the | cursor above the quoted text [...] At Google one convention was that this is a cue to start at the top of the quoted text and trim rubbish aggressively, and inline one's replies. Of course that is a workflow mindset chosen to overcome this bad UI choice:-) Cheers, -- Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> DoD#743 http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/ Would you remember a one-line .sig? - Paul Thompson, thompson@apple.com
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 07:15:07AM -0500, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
I am not going to mandate anything (first, I don't have power). Anything is acceptable. But decide for yourself what is convenient *for you*. Imagine you are reading through a big and complex discussion with many threads. Or think about looking for information in the mailing list(s) archive. How much excessive information can you bear? What posing style would be the best in that cases? It is easy to see the dilemma. It's convenient for a poster to do a quick reply - hence top-posting without trimming. But that's inconvenient for readers and especially for archive browsers. So if you are going to be a long-term participator wouldn't it be in the public interests if you spend a few additional seconds properly formatting your replies? It's in your interests too because sooner or later you will return to your own discussions in the archive. That's my humble opinion. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
I don't really understand the objection. My mail client hides unbroken quotes at the bottom of an email, so that I don't see anything except what you quoted (if I read my own email), plus my signature. I take it yours doesn't do this? -- Devin
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree that Pipermail (Mailman's default interface) suxx for browsing threads and archives, but Google Groups are able to handle that pretty well https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/python-ideas -- anatoly t.
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 08:13:42AM -0500, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
When I do googling through web-archives I use web browser to read what I found. Google, in my experience, produces the most relevant results. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On 10Jan2012 17:30, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote: | On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 08:13:42AM -0500, Devin Jeanpierre wrote: | > I don't really understand the objection. My mail client hides unbroken | > quotes at the bottom of an email, so that I don't see anything except | > what you quoted (if I read my own email), plus my signature. I take it | > yours doesn't do this? | | When I do googling through web-archives I use web browser to read | what I found. Google, in my experience, produces the most relevant | results. It is worth mentioning (since I routinely see it missed it these discussions) that leaving huge chunks of untrimmed quotes makes it much harder to find the _relevant_ archived message because of all the irrelevant keyword hits. Quote trimming helps put relevant stuff in the email flow and keeps irrelevant stuff out. Cheers, -- Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> DoD#743 http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/ I swear to god, officer, I'm fixing this bridge. Just go divert traffic.
Devin Jeanpierre writes:
Mine does not, and I like it that way, because almost all the mail I receive is either very short threads where it doesn't matter, or related to fora where the vast majority of participants follow the standard netiquette conventions of interlinear response and fairly aggressive trimming. It is often the case that the trailing text is useful for establishing context (because if it wasn't the poster would have trimmed it). I believe that the top-posting style works well in business because threads are either short, or almost everybody is almost always on the same page anyway, and occasionally refers to something buried deeper in the thread. Also, in most cases any conflicts will be settled more or less arbitrarily by the boss's intuition, so extended analysis with precise rebuttals is rare. It sucks in technical discussion, because people have interesting things to say (aka, conflicting analyses that go beyond Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions one-liners).
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 08:36:04PM +0200, Yuval Greenfield wrote:
And of course everyone and his brother use GMail? Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
participants (17)
-
Alexander Belopolsky -
anatoly techtonik -
Arnaud Delobelle -
Barry Warsaw -
Ben Finney -
Cameron Simpson -
Devin Jeanpierre -
Ethan Furman -
Greg -
John O'Connor -
Matt Joiner -
Mike Meyer -
Nick Coghlan -
Oleg Broytman -
Paul Moore -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Yuval Greenfield