Is this group via google groups read only?
Hi, I wrote a message to this group via google groups yesterday. This message did not arrive here. Now I write as a subscriber to the mailman mailing list. My post is visible via google groups here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/python-ideas/28DuXfuCYFY Is the google group interface to this group read only? If yes. It is confusing that you can post via google groups. Regards, Thomas PS: this message is about the google groups interface. I write the python question in a second mail. -- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/
On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 08:52:19AM +0200, Thomas Güttler wrote:
What address did you send to? If I understand correctly, email to python-ideas@googlegroups.com will only go to Google Groups, but email to python-ideas@python.org will come to this mailing list, and from there, it will be mirrored at various places, such as Gmane and Google Groups. This is out of our control, as far as I understand it is entirely Google's decision to have GoogleGroups behave the way it does, and there is nothing we can do about it.
Is the google group interface to this group read only?
If yes. It is confusing that you can post via google groups.
Complain to Google. They won't care, but they could fix this if they wanted to. -- Steve
Am 20.08.2015 um 14:32 schrieb Steven D'Aprano:
I did not send an email. I used the web interface at: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/python-ideas I would be happy if the name of the group could be changed from "a mirror of the python-ideas@python.org mailing list for the general public" to "a **read only** mirror of the python-ideas@python.org mailing list for the general public" Who can do this? I could not find a way to contact an owner of this mirror. Regards, Thomas Güttler
-- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/
On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 05:25:54PM +0200, Thomas Güttler wrote:
There's no point talking to us about this. We don't control Google Groups, Google does. And the Google Group is not read only -- as you stated yourself, your message showed up in the Google Group. It just doesn't go anywhere else. In my opinion, Google Groups is best avoided. It is too difficult to use as an archive of posts (I find it extremely difficult to get a URL that links directly to a specific message), and if you post from GG it doesn't go back to the original mailing list or news group, it just stays within GGs.
Google is the owner. On the python-list@python.org mailing list, there are occasional threads discussing the problems with Google Groups and how badly they interoperate with others. If you search the archives, you may find some advice posted by GG users that will assist (e.g. settings you can change that will provide a better experience), but if I remember correctly, you'll also hear from those who have tried contacting Google that they don't respond to requests, complaints or suggestions from the public. I think that if you want to continue this discussion, the python-list mailing list (also available via Usenet on comp.lang.python) is the best place. There are a couple of fans of Google Groups there who may make useful suggestions, and the mailing list has a much higher tolerance for off-topic discussions. -- Steve
Am 20.08.2015 um 17:50 schrieb Steven D'Aprano:
If the majority of python-ideas users would vote for "don't mirror this list", then AFAIK google has not the right to do the mirroring. The owner if this list is python.org, not google. But I don't want to "fight" for this today. Thank you Steve for sharing your knowledge. Regards, Thomas Güttler -- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/
On 21 August 2015 at 16:58, Thomas Güttler <guettliml@thomas-guettler.de> wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no way I know of to ask Google not to mirror a public mailing list, even when their mirror is a misleading nuisance that the list owners don't actually appreciate :( Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On 8/21/2015 3:05 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
There are several technical mailing list archive sites. I Googled a recent python-list post of mine and found it in the top 15 hits at http://readlist.com/lists/python.org/python-list/67/337183.html http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/python/python/1211878 https://code.activestate.com/lists/python-list/689764/ https://www.mail-archive.com/python-list@python.org/msg399397.html These all look to be read-only as far as the site goes, and honestly identified as copies, so they only serve to broadcast our message and possibly direct people to the original source. Three include at the bottom of each posted message https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list and the fourth a sidebar link to python-list info. I believe that there are also 'country' sites that either post English originals or local translations. -- Terry Jan Reedy
On 22 August 2015 at 07:34, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
Yep, plenty of folks know how to do public list mirroring and archiving right. It's only Google that think "But *of course* you want us to provide a broken confusing web gateway for your non-Google mailing list, who wouldn't want that?". Plenty of folks were concerned when they bought Deja News, and those fears turned out to be well founded :P Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 4:58 PM, Thomas Güttler <guettliml@thomas-guettler.de> wrote:
I don't know that this is true. The list archive is open, so I think anyone has the right to mirror it (though I may be wrong on that); in any case, "a majority of users" would not be the governing force behind anything. Even "a majority of posters" (which would be infinitely easier to calculate) isn't the government of this list. I'm not sure who _does_ own the list, but my guess would be either the PSF or some entity representing the Python community in some other way. ChrisA
On 2015-08-20 16:25, Thomas Güttler wrote:
As you discovered, it's not a read-only mirror, because you _can_ post to it. It's just that posts sent to the mirror appear only on the mirror.
Who can do this? I could not find a way to contact an owner of this mirror.
The owner of Google Groups would, not surprisingly, be Google! :-)
On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 08:52:19AM +0200, Thomas Güttler wrote:
What address did you send to? If I understand correctly, email to python-ideas@googlegroups.com will only go to Google Groups, but email to python-ideas@python.org will come to this mailing list, and from there, it will be mirrored at various places, such as Gmane and Google Groups. This is out of our control, as far as I understand it is entirely Google's decision to have GoogleGroups behave the way it does, and there is nothing we can do about it.
Is the google group interface to this group read only?
If yes. It is confusing that you can post via google groups.
Complain to Google. They won't care, but they could fix this if they wanted to. -- Steve
Am 20.08.2015 um 14:32 schrieb Steven D'Aprano:
I did not send an email. I used the web interface at: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/python-ideas I would be happy if the name of the group could be changed from "a mirror of the python-ideas@python.org mailing list for the general public" to "a **read only** mirror of the python-ideas@python.org mailing list for the general public" Who can do this? I could not find a way to contact an owner of this mirror. Regards, Thomas Güttler
-- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/
On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 05:25:54PM +0200, Thomas Güttler wrote:
There's no point talking to us about this. We don't control Google Groups, Google does. And the Google Group is not read only -- as you stated yourself, your message showed up in the Google Group. It just doesn't go anywhere else. In my opinion, Google Groups is best avoided. It is too difficult to use as an archive of posts (I find it extremely difficult to get a URL that links directly to a specific message), and if you post from GG it doesn't go back to the original mailing list or news group, it just stays within GGs.
Google is the owner. On the python-list@python.org mailing list, there are occasional threads discussing the problems with Google Groups and how badly they interoperate with others. If you search the archives, you may find some advice posted by GG users that will assist (e.g. settings you can change that will provide a better experience), but if I remember correctly, you'll also hear from those who have tried contacting Google that they don't respond to requests, complaints or suggestions from the public. I think that if you want to continue this discussion, the python-list mailing list (also available via Usenet on comp.lang.python) is the best place. There are a couple of fans of Google Groups there who may make useful suggestions, and the mailing list has a much higher tolerance for off-topic discussions. -- Steve
Am 20.08.2015 um 17:50 schrieb Steven D'Aprano:
If the majority of python-ideas users would vote for "don't mirror this list", then AFAIK google has not the right to do the mirroring. The owner if this list is python.org, not google. But I don't want to "fight" for this today. Thank you Steve for sharing your knowledge. Regards, Thomas Güttler -- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/
On 21 August 2015 at 16:58, Thomas Güttler <guettliml@thomas-guettler.de> wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no way I know of to ask Google not to mirror a public mailing list, even when their mirror is a misleading nuisance that the list owners don't actually appreciate :( Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On 8/21/2015 3:05 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
There are several technical mailing list archive sites. I Googled a recent python-list post of mine and found it in the top 15 hits at http://readlist.com/lists/python.org/python-list/67/337183.html http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/python/python/1211878 https://code.activestate.com/lists/python-list/689764/ https://www.mail-archive.com/python-list@python.org/msg399397.html These all look to be read-only as far as the site goes, and honestly identified as copies, so they only serve to broadcast our message and possibly direct people to the original source. Three include at the bottom of each posted message https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list and the fourth a sidebar link to python-list info. I believe that there are also 'country' sites that either post English originals or local translations. -- Terry Jan Reedy
On 22 August 2015 at 07:34, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
Yep, plenty of folks know how to do public list mirroring and archiving right. It's only Google that think "But *of course* you want us to provide a broken confusing web gateway for your non-Google mailing list, who wouldn't want that?". Plenty of folks were concerned when they bought Deja News, and those fears turned out to be well founded :P Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 4:58 PM, Thomas Güttler <guettliml@thomas-guettler.de> wrote:
I don't know that this is true. The list archive is open, so I think anyone has the right to mirror it (though I may be wrong on that); in any case, "a majority of users" would not be the governing force behind anything. Even "a majority of posters" (which would be infinitely easier to calculate) isn't the government of this list. I'm not sure who _does_ own the list, but my guess would be either the PSF or some entity representing the Python community in some other way. ChrisA
On 2015-08-20 16:25, Thomas Güttler wrote:
As you discovered, it's not a read-only mirror, because you _can_ post to it. It's just that posts sent to the mirror appear only on the mirror.
Who can do this? I could not find a way to contact an owner of this mirror.
The owner of Google Groups would, not surprisingly, be Google! :-)
participants (6)
-
Chris Angelico -
MRAB -
Nick Coghlan -
Steven D'Aprano -
Terry Reedy -
Thomas Güttler