Agreed that this could be achieved by a third party library; and probably already is - but the ipaddress module in Python could also have been one. Therefore I feel it would somewhat complete the already existing networking utilities already included if we were to implement this within the standard library. It is for this reason i also recommend an API that is familiar to people who already use the ipaddress module; as this would be a layer 2 compliment to the existing package. Happy to discuss, Pete Wicken On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 8:14 PM Christopher Barker <pythonchb@gmail.com> wrote:

This is a perfect idea for a third party package to be put on PyPi. Have you looked to see if one exists already?

If, at some point, there is a robust and mature version that is widely used, then it might be worth considering g for the standard library.

-CHB

On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 4:53 AM Pete Wicken <petewicken@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Currently in Python 3 we have an ipaddress module which allows easy manipulation of IP version 4 and 6 addresses and networks. Examples of this are getting the packed bytes representation of an address, checking if an address is of a specific type according to the RFC (private, multicast, etc.)

My proposal is that we have something with a similar API for MAC addresses. A lot of these operations that we have for IPv4 and IPv6 addresses are also applicable for MAC addresses. We can take in concatenated, hyphenated or dotted notations. Some of the methods could include packed is_multicast is_broadcast is_universal get_oui

and optionally format outputs

dotted(upper=False) hyphenated(upper=False) concatenated(upper=False)

get_oui could initially just return the OUI part of the address without resolving. However, it is possible that on build of Python we pull down the latest OUIs from IEEE into a python file.

My initial thought if people are in agreement was to have a macaddress.py module. However if the APIs for these are similar enough, perhaps it warrants having a networkaddress.py module that contains both the old ipaddress code and the new macaddress code?

I would be grateful to hear people's thoughts on this.

Pete Wicken _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/GRCNHO... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

-- Christopher Barker, PhD

Python Language Consulting - Teaching - Scientific Software Development - Desktop GUI and Web Development - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython

On Apr 4, 2020, at 12:45, Pete Wicken <petewicken@gmail.com> wrote:

Agreed that this could be achieved by a third party library; and probably already is

PS, I’ve needed something like this a few times in the past, so I can offer some vague memories of what’s available. I’ve mostly used netifaces, which is amazing and does all the low-level stuff you’d want and is more cross-platform than you’d believe possible. But its API isn’t very ipaddress-like; it’s mostly dicts of strings and enum ints, and most of what it does isn’t relevant here. There’s a library that I believe is called netaddr (and I think it’s the one with that name on PyPI), which took Google’s ipaddr and expanded it to add MAC/EUI and various other kinds of addresses. If the author is willing, and if it’s solid enough, I’d bet that stripping it down to just MAC and changing the API to parallel ipaddress instead of ipaddr would be a lot easier. I’ve also used QtNetwork in a GUI app. That obviously isn’t as amenable to borrowing, but if there are any design questions that come up, looking at how Qt does it (and whether they have a billion bug reports/feature requests complaining about it) can be helpful.

On Apr 5, 2020, at 02:48, Pete Wicken <petewicken@gmail.com> wrote:

Personally I have found that stdlib support for networking is strangely patchy at the moment; with ipaddress being a great handy module for IP work without requiring dependencies; but seemingly very little networking support before or after that. The 'before' part is what my idea is attempting to tackle. I am not recommending we start investigating further layers of the networking stack post-IP, however I feel the logical step forwards is to have some form of support for the most common form of layer 2 addressing.

I think Python is just following history here. It has nice wrappers for everything C/POSIX/Sockets exposed, and then it has higher-level libraries for all the protocols that were really important in the early 90s, and that’s it. And then it has selectors and asyncio, and above or below that level to replace all the old stuff. But if the stdlib were designed from scratch today rather than over the past 30 years, I think it would have less than it does, not more. Up to around a decade ago, installing third-party libraries was a huge mess, but nowadays, PyPI works, Python comes with pip pre-installed, and telling developers they need internet access when they first start a new project isn’t considered onerous. And meanwhile, a lot of things people need in the real world evolve a lot faster than Python can keep up with. So the Python documentation now points people to third-party libs like requests and numpy, and the trend is more in that direction rather than the stdlib trying to do everything. (Even pip uses requests rather than anyone trying to update urllib and cert management and so on to make it unnecessary.) However, I think that a macaddress library could easily be one of the few things that does properly fit in the networking section of the stdlib. It’s a small feature, and it should be very stable—I think the last change to the protocol spec was about 20 years ago, and from a brief scan of the release notes for netaddr it looks like for the last decade its needed less than one bugfix or feature per year for dealing with MAC/EUI addresses…

On Apr 5, 2020, at 20:12, Stephen J. Turnbull <turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas writes:

...

However, I think that a macaddress library could easily be one of the few things that does properly fit in the networking section of the stdlib. It’s a small feature, and it should be very stable—I think the last change to the protocol spec was about 20 years ago, and from a brief scan of the release notes for netaddr it looks like for the last decade its needed less than one bugfix or feature per year for dealing with MAC/EUI addresses…

I wonder if it should go in a package of its own, or if we should expand ipaddress to netaddress and have all the features at the same level, or if we should have ipaddress.macaddress (the semantics there are a bit wonky, but "ipaddress" is now canonical for the ipaddress features).

If I were a sysadmin who didn’t know Python well, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t go looking in a module named ipaddress for functions and classes to deal with MAC addresses. But on the other hand, if I went on StackOverflow or ServerFault and learned that’s where they were. I don’t think I’d complain. So… maybe we need a survey of what other libraries across languages do to guide us in the naming? The other big question is whether to use the “correct” names, so an eui_address function gives you an EUI48Address (or EUI64Address as appropriate), or the names real sysadmins will expect (unless they’re dealing with Bluetooth or FireWire or something instead of Ethernet or WiFi), so you just call mac_address and get a MACAddress.

From the Old Farts Must Reminisce Department:

...

But if the stdlib were designed from scratch today rather than over the past 30 years, I think it would have less than it does, not more. Up to around a decade ago, installing third-party libraries was a huge mess, but nowadays, PyPI works, Python comes with pip pre-installed, and telling developers they need internet access when they first start a new project isn’t considered onerous.

That's OK for developers on their "own" machines, but I think there are still a lot of folks who need approval from corporate

Sure, but in this particular case, the people writing maintenance scripts that need to deal with MAC addresses are probably the IT department. They get to make the policy and/or administer the intranet PyPI repo, and somehow that always seems to make things easier for them than for the engineering department. :)

But for those not constrained by corporate policy, even if they don't have good network access consistently, installing everything you think you might ever need from PyPI on the infrequent occasions you do have such access is only a small fraction of modern disks. Suboptimal, of course, but there was a time I typed the bootstrap assembly code for a C compiler from a book, and then did the optimized full-featured self-hosting version the same way. Not saying "you kidz these dayz don't know how good you have it", rather "where there's a will there's a way." $python -m pip + PyPI makes TOOWTDI for packages quite painless!

A few months ago, I was on a plane, less than an hour away from landing and being online, and I wanted to pip install something into Pythonista on my iPad and the wait drove me crazy. And then I remembered an article in Cider with 6502 code for playing polyphonic (well, duophonic) audio and getting to the last page and seeing “code continues next issue” and having to wait a month to get the rest of it, and suddenly 40 minutes didn’t seem… well, no, it was still annoying as hell, I was just amazed at how patient that younger me must have been. 300 baud modems, overnight compiles, having to go to the library on the weekend to look up something simple instead of just checking on your phone… But we were happy in them days, though we had no bandwidth. You try and tell t’young people today. And they won’t believe ye.