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Hello group, I posted a few days ago and did not get a response. Maybe this is not the correct forum for this question and if that is the case I apologize. I am a blind software engineering student who is conducting research and would like to use Python for the developing language. I am in search of a tool or IDE for Python that is accessible with a screen reader. I have tried a number of tools but none were very accessible or accessible at all. I use a Mac mostly but can use Windows or Linux if need be. Any help would be great and again if this is the wrong list for this question I apologize.
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Hi, * Bryan Duarte <bryan0731@gmail.com> [2015-02-18 08:59:00 -0700]:
python-ideas is mainly for new ideas and proposals for the Python language itself. I think the python-list list (with generic python topics) would probably be the better place.
I don't know much about accessibility, but I've heard about people who find terminal applications a lot more accessible. Maybe something like vim or emacs suits you more? Keep in mind you don't really need an IDE to develop with python - any plain text editor works. For emacs (I think), I've even heard about a tool (Emacspeak?) which manages indendation using pitched sounds or voice. I guess that might be useful for Python too. In the stackoverflow question at [1] some people also recommend Visual Studio, for which there are Python extensions. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/118984/how-can-you-program-if-youre-blind Florian -- http://www.the-compiler.org | me@the-compiler.org (Mail/XMPP) GPG: 916E B0C8 FD55 A072 | http://the-compiler.org/pubkey.asc I love long mails! | http://email.is-not-s.ms/
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On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:59 AM, Bryan Duarte <bryan0731@gmail.com> wrote:
You'll probably get better responses on the main list for the discussion of the use of Python, as opposed to this list where where discuss ideas for where Python itself should be heading in the future. The main discussion list is python-list@python.org and comp.lang.python (the newsgroup and mailing list gateway to each other); if you don't get a response there, you may want to consider other sites such as Stack Overflow. All the best! ChrisA
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On Feb 18 2015, Bryan Duarte <bryan0731-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
python-list would probably be a better choice, cf. https://www.python.org/community/lists/.
Hmm. Do you really need an IDE to program in Python? Maybe you could try Emacs with Emacs Code Browser and Emacspeak? Best, -Nikolaus -- GPG encrypted emails preferred. Key id: 0xD113FCAC3C4E599F Fingerprint: ED31 791B 2C5C 1613 AF38 8B8A D113 FCAC 3C4E 599F »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«
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Hello all, Thank you all for your feedback. I did respond but did not reply all so my message only went to Chris. I understand I do not need an IDE to program Python, I was only looking for an IDE for the tools it offers when exploring classes and methods. I am experimenting with different libraries and with an IDE or other tool I can quickly and easily see methods which can be called from different classes. If you are aware of how I can do this using VIM, eMacs or any other tool please let me know. I typically just use VIM or another text editor to write the majority of my code but in this case and some other cases it is more efficient to have these tools that make code development faster and easier. Here are the tools I have tried already but I will also be posting to the other group soon. • pyCharm • iPy • iPY notebook • Idle • Eclipse So far Eclipse worked the best but there were still some issues like it freezing when tool tips would pop up. I also use VIM and have my .vimrc modified to auto indent and execute some scripts like pIndent when called. Thanks again everyone for your help even though this is not the correct place for this question. p.s if this group handles Python tools by any chance it would be nice to have something like Idle made accessible.
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On 2/18/2015 12:30 PM, Bryan Duarte wrote:
Here are the tools I have tried already ... Idle ... it would be nice to have something like Idle made accessible.
Idle uses tkinter, the interface to the tcl tk gui system. I have read that tk is not designed for accessibility. There is nothing we can do about that. If our idlelib code makes matters worse, say with tooltips, we could try to improve it. But I just do not know if there is anything we could do. -- Terry Jan Reedy
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A few (possibly more aceessible) alternatives to IDLE: * IPython in a terminal * IPython qtconsole (Qt toolkit) * IPython Notebook may / should have WAI ARIA role tags (which are really easy to add to most templates) * Spyder IDE (Qt toolkit) embeds an IPython console with a Run button and lightweight code completion: https://code.google.com/p/spyderlib/ * I have no idea whether the python-mode Vim plugin is accessible: https://github.com/klen/python-mode * Here's my dot vim config: https://github.com/westurner/dotvim It could be helpful to get a Wiki page together for accessibility: tools, features, gaps, best practices, etc. On Feb 18, 2015 1:43 PM, "Terry Reedy" <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
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On Feb 18, 2015, at 11:42, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
IIRC, accessibility was one of the key items for Tcl/Tk 8.5, but nobody ended up championing it (it didn't even get a TIP, their equivalent of a PEP), so it got bumped to the unspecified future, where it's remained. So I'm guessing it has slim to no chance of happening before the next 8.5-style Tk revamp, and considering that it was 9 years between 8.0 (the last revamp) and 8.5 and another 5 years between 8.5 and 8.6, that could be a very long way off.
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Bryan Duarte writes:
If you are aware of how I can [browse class definitions] this using VIM, eMacs or any other tool please let me know.
Emacs has a subsystem called CEDET, which provides reasonably good but not state-of-the-art implementations of many modern code analysis and refactoring tools. It includes a code browser (the "Emacs Code Browser" mentioned earlier is actually the historical origin of CEDET. The Emacspeak package (which is available separately) is an audible output system *for Emacs*. It doesn't just read the screen: it has access to Emacs internals. I don't personally have experience with it but in theory that access could make a big improvement in the accuracy of its output. Emacs is a paleolithic design which has recently had GUI features grafted on to it, but the Emacs maintainers continue to ensure that its features work well in a terminal. I think it would be your best bet, because (as a non-VIM user) my guess is that VIM users mostly prefer to use VIM as the editor in systems like Eclipse.
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On Feb 18, 2015, at 16:50, "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
Emacs is a paleolithic design which has recently had GUI features grafted on to it,
Not exactly recently; it goes back to version 19--as in 1992-ish for Lucid and Epoch, 1994 for GNU. In fact, many people think the reason it's GUI features are so strange is that they were grafted on too long ago, not too recently, meaning they're stuck with a weird paradigm that goes back to the days before the GUI wars.
An awful lot of people use vim from the console. In fact, one of the reasons they claim it's better than emacs is that it's tiny enough to fit on embedded/mobile systems and starts up quickly enough to use for a quick one-line edit. Another is that its command sequences are designed to be typed without looking at the screen or moving your hands from normal touch-type position. And most of the people I know who like to use vim graphically still have the same anti-IDE mentality you'd expect from people who prefer vi, and use its built-in GUI. The reason not to use vim is (or, rather, might be) that it doesn't have nearly as many customizations and extensions available, so there may not be any way to configure it the way the OP needs. With emacs, pretty much anything is possible; the only question is whether it's easy enough...
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Andrew Barnert writes:
Right. The paleolithic *design* didn't change, so Emacs is stuck with a neolithic GUI. XEmacs is a little bit better on both grounds, but not much.
they're stuck with a weird paradigm that goes back to the days before the GUI wars.
But we don't consider that we're "stuck"; we *like* text-oriented interfaces<wink/> (And they're probably easier for screen readers to express effectively.)
An awful lot of people use vim from the console.
Of course they do, that's not the point. The point is that because VIM is *self-contained*, it won't have access to the level of internals of the IDE (it's the IDE that's central here) that Emacspeak has with CEDET and the Emacs redisplay (that latter is probably the deciding factor).
Now there's a biggee for this use-case! Emacs does have an answer, though: VIPER (vi keystroke bindings). Whether all that adds up to enough potential to make Emacs use palatable to someone who isn't already an Emacs user is the question I guess.
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Hi, * Bryan Duarte <bryan0731@gmail.com> [2015-02-18 08:59:00 -0700]:
python-ideas is mainly for new ideas and proposals for the Python language itself. I think the python-list list (with generic python topics) would probably be the better place.
I don't know much about accessibility, but I've heard about people who find terminal applications a lot more accessible. Maybe something like vim or emacs suits you more? Keep in mind you don't really need an IDE to develop with python - any plain text editor works. For emacs (I think), I've even heard about a tool (Emacspeak?) which manages indendation using pitched sounds or voice. I guess that might be useful for Python too. In the stackoverflow question at [1] some people also recommend Visual Studio, for which there are Python extensions. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/118984/how-can-you-program-if-youre-blind Florian -- http://www.the-compiler.org | me@the-compiler.org (Mail/XMPP) GPG: 916E B0C8 FD55 A072 | http://the-compiler.org/pubkey.asc I love long mails! | http://email.is-not-s.ms/
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On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:59 AM, Bryan Duarte <bryan0731@gmail.com> wrote:
You'll probably get better responses on the main list for the discussion of the use of Python, as opposed to this list where where discuss ideas for where Python itself should be heading in the future. The main discussion list is python-list@python.org and comp.lang.python (the newsgroup and mailing list gateway to each other); if you don't get a response there, you may want to consider other sites such as Stack Overflow. All the best! ChrisA
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On Feb 18 2015, Bryan Duarte <bryan0731-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
python-list would probably be a better choice, cf. https://www.python.org/community/lists/.
Hmm. Do you really need an IDE to program in Python? Maybe you could try Emacs with Emacs Code Browser and Emacspeak? Best, -Nikolaus -- GPG encrypted emails preferred. Key id: 0xD113FCAC3C4E599F Fingerprint: ED31 791B 2C5C 1613 AF38 8B8A D113 FCAC 3C4E 599F »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«
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Hello all, Thank you all for your feedback. I did respond but did not reply all so my message only went to Chris. I understand I do not need an IDE to program Python, I was only looking for an IDE for the tools it offers when exploring classes and methods. I am experimenting with different libraries and with an IDE or other tool I can quickly and easily see methods which can be called from different classes. If you are aware of how I can do this using VIM, eMacs or any other tool please let me know. I typically just use VIM or another text editor to write the majority of my code but in this case and some other cases it is more efficient to have these tools that make code development faster and easier. Here are the tools I have tried already but I will also be posting to the other group soon. • pyCharm • iPy • iPY notebook • Idle • Eclipse So far Eclipse worked the best but there were still some issues like it freezing when tool tips would pop up. I also use VIM and have my .vimrc modified to auto indent and execute some scripts like pIndent when called. Thanks again everyone for your help even though this is not the correct place for this question. p.s if this group handles Python tools by any chance it would be nice to have something like Idle made accessible.
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On 2/18/2015 12:30 PM, Bryan Duarte wrote:
Here are the tools I have tried already ... Idle ... it would be nice to have something like Idle made accessible.
Idle uses tkinter, the interface to the tcl tk gui system. I have read that tk is not designed for accessibility. There is nothing we can do about that. If our idlelib code makes matters worse, say with tooltips, we could try to improve it. But I just do not know if there is anything we could do. -- Terry Jan Reedy
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A few (possibly more aceessible) alternatives to IDLE: * IPython in a terminal * IPython qtconsole (Qt toolkit) * IPython Notebook may / should have WAI ARIA role tags (which are really easy to add to most templates) * Spyder IDE (Qt toolkit) embeds an IPython console with a Run button and lightweight code completion: https://code.google.com/p/spyderlib/ * I have no idea whether the python-mode Vim plugin is accessible: https://github.com/klen/python-mode * Here's my dot vim config: https://github.com/westurner/dotvim It could be helpful to get a Wiki page together for accessibility: tools, features, gaps, best practices, etc. On Feb 18, 2015 1:43 PM, "Terry Reedy" <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
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On Feb 18, 2015, at 11:42, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
IIRC, accessibility was one of the key items for Tcl/Tk 8.5, but nobody ended up championing it (it didn't even get a TIP, their equivalent of a PEP), so it got bumped to the unspecified future, where it's remained. So I'm guessing it has slim to no chance of happening before the next 8.5-style Tk revamp, and considering that it was 9 years between 8.0 (the last revamp) and 8.5 and another 5 years between 8.5 and 8.6, that could be a very long way off.
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Bryan Duarte writes:
If you are aware of how I can [browse class definitions] this using VIM, eMacs or any other tool please let me know.
Emacs has a subsystem called CEDET, which provides reasonably good but not state-of-the-art implementations of many modern code analysis and refactoring tools. It includes a code browser (the "Emacs Code Browser" mentioned earlier is actually the historical origin of CEDET. The Emacspeak package (which is available separately) is an audible output system *for Emacs*. It doesn't just read the screen: it has access to Emacs internals. I don't personally have experience with it but in theory that access could make a big improvement in the accuracy of its output. Emacs is a paleolithic design which has recently had GUI features grafted on to it, but the Emacs maintainers continue to ensure that its features work well in a terminal. I think it would be your best bet, because (as a non-VIM user) my guess is that VIM users mostly prefer to use VIM as the editor in systems like Eclipse.
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On Feb 18, 2015, at 16:50, "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
Emacs is a paleolithic design which has recently had GUI features grafted on to it,
Not exactly recently; it goes back to version 19--as in 1992-ish for Lucid and Epoch, 1994 for GNU. In fact, many people think the reason it's GUI features are so strange is that they were grafted on too long ago, not too recently, meaning they're stuck with a weird paradigm that goes back to the days before the GUI wars.
An awful lot of people use vim from the console. In fact, one of the reasons they claim it's better than emacs is that it's tiny enough to fit on embedded/mobile systems and starts up quickly enough to use for a quick one-line edit. Another is that its command sequences are designed to be typed without looking at the screen or moving your hands from normal touch-type position. And most of the people I know who like to use vim graphically still have the same anti-IDE mentality you'd expect from people who prefer vi, and use its built-in GUI. The reason not to use vim is (or, rather, might be) that it doesn't have nearly as many customizations and extensions available, so there may not be any way to configure it the way the OP needs. With emacs, pretty much anything is possible; the only question is whether it's easy enough...
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Andrew Barnert writes:
Right. The paleolithic *design* didn't change, so Emacs is stuck with a neolithic GUI. XEmacs is a little bit better on both grounds, but not much.
they're stuck with a weird paradigm that goes back to the days before the GUI wars.
But we don't consider that we're "stuck"; we *like* text-oriented interfaces<wink/> (And they're probably easier for screen readers to express effectively.)
An awful lot of people use vim from the console.
Of course they do, that's not the point. The point is that because VIM is *self-contained*, it won't have access to the level of internals of the IDE (it's the IDE that's central here) that Emacspeak has with CEDET and the Emacs redisplay (that latter is probably the deciding factor).
Now there's a biggee for this use-case! Emacs does have an answer, though: VIPER (vi keystroke bindings). Whether all that adds up to enough potential to make Emacs use palatable to someone who isn't already an Emacs user is the question I guess.
participants (8)
-
Andrew Barnert
-
Bryan Duarte
-
Chris Angelico
-
Florian Bruhin
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Nikolaus Rath
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Stephen J. Turnbull
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Terry Reedy
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Wes Turner