Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
I agree completely. I propose Python register a trial of Stack Overflow Teams. Stack Overflow Teams is essentially your own private Stack Overflow. (I will address the private part later.) Proposals would be questions and additions or criticism would be answers. You can express your support or dissent of a proposal using the voting. Flags and reviews can be used to moderate. Stack Overflow Chat can be used for quick and casual discussion, and also to move irregular or irrelevant discussions away from the main site. Although the Stack Overflow platform is typically used for technical Q&A, there is precedent for using it as a way to discuss proposals: this is precisely what Meta Stack Overflow dies and it’s seen decent success. Anyone can register a @python.org email. Stack Overflow Teams can be configured to allow anyone with a @python.org email join the python-ideas team. I’m sure Stack Overflow Inc. is willing to grant Stack Overflow Teams to the PSF pro bono after the trial period expires. You can configure stack overflow to get email notifications as well.
It was decided to try https://www.discourse.org at the core dev sprints. We'll likely try it for the upcoming governance model/vote discussions. If it works well we'll consider using it for other discussions in the future. Let's table this topic for now as we're unlikely to (a) try anything else but Discource; (b) not to try Discource for governance discussions; (c) AFAIK we already have people who will set it up for us, so no help is needed. Yury On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:23 PM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <arj.python@gmail.com> wrote:
-- Yury
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 4:16 PM James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com> wrote: [..]
So... we’re going to be using discourse instead of Python-ideas mailing list? Or will we only try that until Discourse works for “core sprints”?
Well, as I said: "If it works well we'll consider using it for other discussions in the future." We are do not know (right now) how exactly and for what exactly we use it. Using it for python-dev and python-ideas is one possible outcome. Yury
On 09/17/2018 01:16 PM, James Lu wrote:
So... we’re going to be using discourse instead of Python-ideas mailing list?
No. None of the mailing lists will be migrated at this time. The plan is to get a test instance set up, tried for a while on a specific issue or two, and evaluate our experiences then. We are also investigating ways to make the mailing lists themselves more manageable. -- ~Ethan~
Simply use: https://python.zulipchat.com/login/ Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 16:20, James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com> a écrit :
On Mon., Sep. 17, 2018, 13:21 James Lu, <jamtlu@gmail.com> wrote:
How can the Zulip chat be joined? Im interested in consolidating all the discussion into one centralized forum.
No consolidation is happening yet. We're testing out mailing list alternatives on smaller, more manageable lists first before we try to migrate something as large as python-ideas. In other words please be patient as we try to figure this out while knowing we are looking into this. -Brett
Mike Miller writes:
A decent mail program can thread discussions and ignore the boring ones.
+100, but realistically, people aren't going to change their MUAs, especially on handhelds. The advantage of something like Discourse is that the server side controls the UX, and that's what people who don't want to change MUAs usually want. IMO the problems of these lists are a scale problem -- too many people, too many posts. As far as I can see, the only way to "fix" it is to become less inclusive, at least in terms of numbers. It's possible that a different technology will allow us to become more inclusive in terms of diversity at the same time that we become fewer. Steve
As said 100 times in the list, email is powerful, configurable but needs a lot of configuration (especially hard on mobile) and has a lot of rules (don't top post, reply to the list, don't html, wait, html is alright) whereas a web based alternative is easier to grasp (more modern) but adds more abstraction. I can't find the link we had explaining the difference between those two, but mailing list is easily searchable and archivable and readable on a terminal. However, providing guis to mailing list is a nice in between to have the better of two worlds. About moderation, what's the problem on the list ? Le mar. 18 sept. 2018 à 10:44, Stephen J. Turnbull < turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> a écrit :
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:49 AM Robert Vanden Eynde <robertve92@gmail.com> wrote:
About moderation, what's the problem on the list ?
The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability to lock threads and delete posts (i.e. those that are spam or a Code of Conduct violation). Both of those are basic features that are core to virtually every forum system in existence today. Mailing lists offer no moderation of posts or threads unless every post is held in a moderation queue and manually approved before being sent, which isn't practical for large high-traffic lists like this. Instead, the only recourse is to moderate the user by banning or muting them, which can sometimes result in essentially using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. That is particularly the case if the only problems are on one heated thread where five people are attacking each other, but all are contributing constructively to other threads, in which case the best response is to simply terminate the argument by locking the thread. But on a mailing list, one would have to ban or mute all five users instead, impacting all of the other threads those users were contributing to.
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 2:00 PM Franklin? Lee <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps not, but part of that might be because stopping an active discussion on a mailing list can be hard to do, so one might not even try. Some discussions, I suspect, may have gone on in circles long past the point where they would have been locked on a forum. With forum software, it becomes much easier, and would be a more effective tool to terminate discussions that are going nowhere fast and wasting everyone's time.
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble <jcgoble3@gmail.com> wrote:
But there's no evidence that such tools would help. Software enforcement powers are only necessary if verbal enforcement isn't enough. We need the current moderators (or just Brett) to say whether they feel it isn't enough. What people may really be clamoring for is a larger moderation team, or a heavier hand. They want more enforcement, not more effective enforcement.
On 09/18/2018 12:05 PM, Franklin? Lee wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble wrote:
True.
It isn't enough.
More ineffective enforcement will be, um, ineffective. Let's have a test. I'm a moderator (from -List). We're* working on avenues to improve the mailing tools and simultaneously testing other options. I'm not seeing anything new in this thread that will impact that one way or another, so I'm asking for all of us to move on to other topics. -- ~Ethan~ * Various moderators from various lists.
On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 12:20 Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
Software
Ethan's correct, it isn't enough. The past two weeks have been pretty horrible for me as an admin and Titus and I need to find a solution to keep this place sustainable long-term, otherwise I'm liable to burn out from running this list (and before anyone says it, more admins will not help as we have already tried that in the past).
What Ethan said. :) I'm now muting this thread as it has already become a subjective debate of the value of email versus not which doesn't help me as no one has come forward with anything I didn't already know, and this is all before we have even had a chance to start an evaluation of alternatives (IOW there's nothing for anyone on either side of this debate to actually debate about when it comes to this mailing list yet :) .
also Mr Brett, i have no way of knowing moderators, though i don't trample here and there, mods words are sacred and apart from mods saying i'm a mod, i can't really tell. maybe a footer saying mod or something like that Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Mauritius
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:05 PM, Franklin? Lee < leewangzhong+python@gmail.com> wrote:
Or maybe clamoring for nothing -- it's just not that hard to ignore a thread .... Frankly, I think the bigger issue is all too human -- we get sucked in and participate when we really know we shouldn't (or maybe that's just me). And I'm having a hard time figuring out how moderation would actually result in the "good" discussion we really want in an example like the "beautiful is better than ugly" issue, without someone trusted individual approving every single post -- I don't imagine anyone wants to do that. Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any other type of discussion forum regularly. -CHB
-- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov
On 20Sep2018 10:16, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal <chris.barker@noaa.gov> wrote:
Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any other type of discussion forum regularly.
As do I. Email comes to me. Forums, leaving aside their ergonomic horrors (subjective), require a visit. Cheers, Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
Le 20/09/2018 à 10:20, Cameron Simpson a écrit :
Good forums have RSS for that purpose. Besides, it's unlikely that one has to be kept up to date on a daily basis on what's going on on Python-idea with such accuracy that one needs instant notifications that a new entry is available.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:21 AM Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au> wrote:
So you are ok with 100 emails / day, like it happened when inline assignment discussion erupted? I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want. I think most people want the ability to choose what topic they want to receive notification and its not possible. As for ergonomics - it depends on forum software and design. If I use some site frequently and it has bad layout/colors/fonts, then I use Stylish plugin to customize the CSS. Therefore I'd prefer forum with minimalistic CSS to easily customize the look. OTOH if the mailing software has bad ergonomics, I can't do much with that. Or if people post a word and leave 5 pages quote below or messed up formatting - I can't do anything with that. On a good forum systems such things are less probable = less annoyance in general. I see 2 major problems: 1. The mentioned mass mail delivery 2. PEPs and discussion browsing is far from effective - I'd like a better way to browse PEPs - for example filtering by topics, eg. "syntax", "module X", by their status, etc, and of course discoverable relevant discussion. Systems used in Stackoverflow, Github already offer these features. I personally would like Stackoverflow-like format for presenting PEPs + discussion below, so everybody can easily browse PEPs and related info in one place. Mikhail
Mikhail V wrote:
I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want.
I hope that, if any such change is made, a forum system is chosen that allows full participation via either email or news. Otherwise it will probably mean the end of my participation, because I don't have time to chase down and wrestle with multiple web forums every day. -- Greg
On 20Sep2018 20:55, Mikhail V <mikhailwas@gmail.com> wrote:
A drop in a bucket to me. Since I autofile my email, such messages all land in my python folder. Since my mail reader threads, 100 messages on a single topic are easy to follow, or easy to delete/archive/defer if that particular discussion is not of interest to me. And I was interested in the inline assignment discussion. So yes, totally ok.
I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want.
The point by point response, such as this one, is hard in a forum, generally. Qualification: in my deliberately limited experience. And few forums provide email mirroring/posting. Were I choosing the forum that would be an essential feature to me.
I think most people want the ability to choose what topic they want to receive notification and its not possible.
It is perfectly possible. I get hundreds of message by email every day, and arrange notifications only for a tiny subset of those.
You can switch clients. With email, there are many clients. Most forums provide only one: a single web interface.
Clearly these work well for you. How well does that work offline? My laptop collects email continuously, and I visit the relevant folders on my own schedule. If that schedule is on a train with no internet, I'm fine. I can read. I can reply (the message will go out when I'm next online). A forum providing a _good_ email mirroring/posting service might make us both happy. Cheers, Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
i miss a +1 button On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:17 PM Chris Barker via Python-ideas < python-ideas@python.org> wrote:
-- Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/abdur-rahmaanj Mauritius
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <arj.python@gmail.com> wrote:
i miss a +1 button
It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting".
Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman https://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
I would also appreciate a +1 button. Many e-mails to this list do nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion. It's difficult to keep track of all these disparate, unstructured votes in threads that contain a hundred e-mails and spin off into subthreads. There are also a lot of lurkers who don't want to gum up inboxes with +1's and -1's, so responses are naturally biased towards the more opinionated and active users of the list. GitHub added +1 and -1 buttons for exactly this reason: to reduce needless comment on Issues and Pull Requests. (If I could have +1'ed Abdur-Rahmaan's e-mail, I wouldn't have written this response.)
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:05:33AM -0400, "Mark E. Haase" <mehaase@gmail.com> wrote:
There is no need to track them.
GitHub added +1 and -1 buttons
GitHub is a social network so it's natural for them to add "likes".
(If I could have +1'ed Abdur-Rahmaan's e-mail, I wouldn't have written this response.)
That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. Write your arguments or be silent. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman https://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On 09/20/2018 07:23 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote:
The number of people who have the same argument is also a factor. I would rather have the argument once with 15 +1s than 16 posts all saying the same thing. A "like" on an argument means "I agree" -- which is valuable information to have. -- ~Ethan~
it was just i like chris message v/s i like a like button Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ Mauritius On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 18:24 Oleg Broytman, <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
Mark E. Haase wrote:
I would also appreciate a +1 button. Many e-mails to this list do nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion.
A tiny bit of discussion is still better than none at all. And even if there's no discussion, there's a name attached to the message, which makes it more personal and meaningful than a "+1" counter getting incremented somewhere. Counting only makes sense if the counts are going to be treated as votes, and we don't do that. -- Greg
it's another phrasing of +1 or i like his reply not meaning i'd like +1 buttons in mail Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Mauritius On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 16:09 Oleg wrote:
It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting".
Since 1972, there have been hundreds of reinventions of a means of carying on electronic conversations intended to be "better than email." The one thing they all have in common is that they are vastly worse than email. On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 6:04 PM Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> wrote:
On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 18:07 -0400, David Mertz wrote:
I don't 100% agree with that. E.g., there are better protocols when you need real-time conversations, because (internet) email isn't necessarily good at that (by design). And I'm sure there are other circumstances or purposes where another protocol/standard is more appropriate. But in general, email is pretty good. :) -- Jan Claeys
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 10:43 AM Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> wrote:
Which part of email or internet is "by design" not good for real-time conversation? With any non-stupid MUA, emails are sent virtually instantly, unless the destination server is down. Of course, if you're used to accessing Gmail via your mobile phone app, you probably aren't accustomed to real-time conversations in email; but that is not the *design* of email. ChrisA
On 9/18/18 11:02 AM, Jonathan Goble wrote: list for my local community using the same software as python.org. When a thread gets out of bounds I can enter a message filter to hold for review any message matching the subject of that thread (or specified parts of it). While people can get around the filter by changing the subject line, they can do the same on a forum by starting a new topic. Someone who intentionally does this does get themselves on personal moderation. -- Richard Damon
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 04:48:18PM +0200, Robert Vanden Eynde <robertve92@gmail.com> wrote:
May I show mine: https://phdru.name/Software/mail-vs-web.html ? Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman https://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
SO is for Q&A, not for discussions. I recently had good success at the company I work for with Discourse, the sister/brother software to SO, which is designed specifically for discussions. https://www.discourse.org On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
-- Juancarlo *Añez*
my closing comment on this thread : i back discourse, atwood is a nice guy, he believes in his product. just mobile, mobile usage is a must. Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ Mauritius
It was decided to try https://www.discourse.org at the core dev sprints. We'll likely try it for the upcoming governance model/vote discussions. If it works well we'll consider using it for other discussions in the future. Let's table this topic for now as we're unlikely to (a) try anything else but Discource; (b) not to try Discource for governance discussions; (c) AFAIK we already have people who will set it up for us, so no help is needed. Yury On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:23 PM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <arj.python@gmail.com> wrote:
-- Yury
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 4:16 PM James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com> wrote: [..]
So... we’re going to be using discourse instead of Python-ideas mailing list? Or will we only try that until Discourse works for “core sprints”?
Well, as I said: "If it works well we'll consider using it for other discussions in the future." We are do not know (right now) how exactly and for what exactly we use it. Using it for python-dev and python-ideas is one possible outcome. Yury
On 09/17/2018 01:16 PM, James Lu wrote:
So... we’re going to be using discourse instead of Python-ideas mailing list?
No. None of the mailing lists will be migrated at this time. The plan is to get a test instance set up, tried for a while on a specific issue or two, and evaluate our experiences then. We are also investigating ways to make the mailing lists themselves more manageable. -- ~Ethan~
Simply use: https://python.zulipchat.com/login/ Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 16:20, James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com> a écrit :
On Mon., Sep. 17, 2018, 13:21 James Lu, <jamtlu@gmail.com> wrote:
How can the Zulip chat be joined? Im interested in consolidating all the discussion into one centralized forum.
No consolidation is happening yet. We're testing out mailing list alternatives on smaller, more manageable lists first before we try to migrate something as large as python-ideas. In other words please be patient as we try to figure this out while knowing we are looking into this. -Brett
Mike Miller writes:
A decent mail program can thread discussions and ignore the boring ones.
+100, but realistically, people aren't going to change their MUAs, especially on handhelds. The advantage of something like Discourse is that the server side controls the UX, and that's what people who don't want to change MUAs usually want. IMO the problems of these lists are a scale problem -- too many people, too many posts. As far as I can see, the only way to "fix" it is to become less inclusive, at least in terms of numbers. It's possible that a different technology will allow us to become more inclusive in terms of diversity at the same time that we become fewer. Steve
As said 100 times in the list, email is powerful, configurable but needs a lot of configuration (especially hard on mobile) and has a lot of rules (don't top post, reply to the list, don't html, wait, html is alright) whereas a web based alternative is easier to grasp (more modern) but adds more abstraction. I can't find the link we had explaining the difference between those two, but mailing list is easily searchable and archivable and readable on a terminal. However, providing guis to mailing list is a nice in between to have the better of two worlds. About moderation, what's the problem on the list ? Le mar. 18 sept. 2018 à 10:44, Stephen J. Turnbull < turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> a écrit :
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:49 AM Robert Vanden Eynde <robertve92@gmail.com> wrote:
About moderation, what's the problem on the list ?
The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability to lock threads and delete posts (i.e. those that are spam or a Code of Conduct violation). Both of those are basic features that are core to virtually every forum system in existence today. Mailing lists offer no moderation of posts or threads unless every post is held in a moderation queue and manually approved before being sent, which isn't practical for large high-traffic lists like this. Instead, the only recourse is to moderate the user by banning or muting them, which can sometimes result in essentially using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. That is particularly the case if the only problems are on one heated thread where five people are attacking each other, but all are contributing constructively to other threads, in which case the best response is to simply terminate the argument by locking the thread. But on a mailing list, one would have to ban or mute all five users instead, impacting all of the other threads those users were contributing to.
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 2:00 PM Franklin? Lee <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps not, but part of that might be because stopping an active discussion on a mailing list can be hard to do, so one might not even try. Some discussions, I suspect, may have gone on in circles long past the point where they would have been locked on a forum. With forum software, it becomes much easier, and would be a more effective tool to terminate discussions that are going nowhere fast and wasting everyone's time.
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble <jcgoble3@gmail.com> wrote:
But there's no evidence that such tools would help. Software enforcement powers are only necessary if verbal enforcement isn't enough. We need the current moderators (or just Brett) to say whether they feel it isn't enough. What people may really be clamoring for is a larger moderation team, or a heavier hand. They want more enforcement, not more effective enforcement.
On 09/18/2018 12:05 PM, Franklin? Lee wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble wrote:
True.
It isn't enough.
More ineffective enforcement will be, um, ineffective. Let's have a test. I'm a moderator (from -List). We're* working on avenues to improve the mailing tools and simultaneously testing other options. I'm not seeing anything new in this thread that will impact that one way or another, so I'm asking for all of us to move on to other topics. -- ~Ethan~ * Various moderators from various lists.
On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 12:20 Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
Software
Ethan's correct, it isn't enough. The past two weeks have been pretty horrible for me as an admin and Titus and I need to find a solution to keep this place sustainable long-term, otherwise I'm liable to burn out from running this list (and before anyone says it, more admins will not help as we have already tried that in the past).
What Ethan said. :) I'm now muting this thread as it has already become a subjective debate of the value of email versus not which doesn't help me as no one has come forward with anything I didn't already know, and this is all before we have even had a chance to start an evaluation of alternatives (IOW there's nothing for anyone on either side of this debate to actually debate about when it comes to this mailing list yet :) .
also Mr Brett, i have no way of knowing moderators, though i don't trample here and there, mods words are sacred and apart from mods saying i'm a mod, i can't really tell. maybe a footer saying mod or something like that Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Mauritius
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:05 PM, Franklin? Lee < leewangzhong+python@gmail.com> wrote:
Or maybe clamoring for nothing -- it's just not that hard to ignore a thread .... Frankly, I think the bigger issue is all too human -- we get sucked in and participate when we really know we shouldn't (or maybe that's just me). And I'm having a hard time figuring out how moderation would actually result in the "good" discussion we really want in an example like the "beautiful is better than ugly" issue, without someone trusted individual approving every single post -- I don't imagine anyone wants to do that. Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any other type of discussion forum regularly. -CHB
-- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov
On 20Sep2018 10:16, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal <chris.barker@noaa.gov> wrote:
Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any other type of discussion forum regularly.
As do I. Email comes to me. Forums, leaving aside their ergonomic horrors (subjective), require a visit. Cheers, Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
Le 20/09/2018 à 10:20, Cameron Simpson a écrit :
Good forums have RSS for that purpose. Besides, it's unlikely that one has to be kept up to date on a daily basis on what's going on on Python-idea with such accuracy that one needs instant notifications that a new entry is available.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:21 AM Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au> wrote:
So you are ok with 100 emails / day, like it happened when inline assignment discussion erupted? I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want. I think most people want the ability to choose what topic they want to receive notification and its not possible. As for ergonomics - it depends on forum software and design. If I use some site frequently and it has bad layout/colors/fonts, then I use Stylish plugin to customize the CSS. Therefore I'd prefer forum with minimalistic CSS to easily customize the look. OTOH if the mailing software has bad ergonomics, I can't do much with that. Or if people post a word and leave 5 pages quote below or messed up formatting - I can't do anything with that. On a good forum systems such things are less probable = less annoyance in general. I see 2 major problems: 1. The mentioned mass mail delivery 2. PEPs and discussion browsing is far from effective - I'd like a better way to browse PEPs - for example filtering by topics, eg. "syntax", "module X", by their status, etc, and of course discoverable relevant discussion. Systems used in Stackoverflow, Github already offer these features. I personally would like Stackoverflow-like format for presenting PEPs + discussion below, so everybody can easily browse PEPs and related info in one place. Mikhail
Mikhail V wrote:
I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want.
I hope that, if any such change is made, a forum system is chosen that allows full participation via either email or news. Otherwise it will probably mean the end of my participation, because I don't have time to chase down and wrestle with multiple web forums every day. -- Greg
On 20Sep2018 20:55, Mikhail V <mikhailwas@gmail.com> wrote:
A drop in a bucket to me. Since I autofile my email, such messages all land in my python folder. Since my mail reader threads, 100 messages on a single topic are easy to follow, or easy to delete/archive/defer if that particular discussion is not of interest to me. And I was interested in the inline assignment discussion. So yes, totally ok.
I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want.
The point by point response, such as this one, is hard in a forum, generally. Qualification: in my deliberately limited experience. And few forums provide email mirroring/posting. Were I choosing the forum that would be an essential feature to me.
I think most people want the ability to choose what topic they want to receive notification and its not possible.
It is perfectly possible. I get hundreds of message by email every day, and arrange notifications only for a tiny subset of those.
You can switch clients. With email, there are many clients. Most forums provide only one: a single web interface.
Clearly these work well for you. How well does that work offline? My laptop collects email continuously, and I visit the relevant folders on my own schedule. If that schedule is on a train with no internet, I'm fine. I can read. I can reply (the message will go out when I'm next online). A forum providing a _good_ email mirroring/posting service might make us both happy. Cheers, Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
i miss a +1 button On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:17 PM Chris Barker via Python-ideas < python-ideas@python.org> wrote:
-- Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/abdur-rahmaanj Mauritius
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <arj.python@gmail.com> wrote:
i miss a +1 button
It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting".
Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman https://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
I would also appreciate a +1 button. Many e-mails to this list do nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion. It's difficult to keep track of all these disparate, unstructured votes in threads that contain a hundred e-mails and spin off into subthreads. There are also a lot of lurkers who don't want to gum up inboxes with +1's and -1's, so responses are naturally biased towards the more opinionated and active users of the list. GitHub added +1 and -1 buttons for exactly this reason: to reduce needless comment on Issues and Pull Requests. (If I could have +1'ed Abdur-Rahmaan's e-mail, I wouldn't have written this response.)
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:05:33AM -0400, "Mark E. Haase" <mehaase@gmail.com> wrote:
There is no need to track them.
GitHub added +1 and -1 buttons
GitHub is a social network so it's natural for them to add "likes".
(If I could have +1'ed Abdur-Rahmaan's e-mail, I wouldn't have written this response.)
That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. Write your arguments or be silent. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman https://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On 09/20/2018 07:23 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote:
The number of people who have the same argument is also a factor. I would rather have the argument once with 15 +1s than 16 posts all saying the same thing. A "like" on an argument means "I agree" -- which is valuable information to have. -- ~Ethan~
it was just i like chris message v/s i like a like button Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ Mauritius On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 18:24 Oleg Broytman, <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
Mark E. Haase wrote:
I would also appreciate a +1 button. Many e-mails to this list do nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion.
A tiny bit of discussion is still better than none at all. And even if there's no discussion, there's a name attached to the message, which makes it more personal and meaningful than a "+1" counter getting incremented somewhere. Counting only makes sense if the counts are going to be treated as votes, and we don't do that. -- Greg
it's another phrasing of +1 or i like his reply not meaning i'd like +1 buttons in mail Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Mauritius On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 16:09 Oleg wrote:
It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting".
Since 1972, there have been hundreds of reinventions of a means of carying on electronic conversations intended to be "better than email." The one thing they all have in common is that they are vastly worse than email. On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 6:04 PM Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> wrote:
On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 18:07 -0400, David Mertz wrote:
I don't 100% agree with that. E.g., there are better protocols when you need real-time conversations, because (internet) email isn't necessarily good at that (by design). And I'm sure there are other circumstances or purposes where another protocol/standard is more appropriate. But in general, email is pretty good. :) -- Jan Claeys
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 10:43 AM Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> wrote:
Which part of email or internet is "by design" not good for real-time conversation? With any non-stupid MUA, emails are sent virtually instantly, unless the destination server is down. Of course, if you're used to accessing Gmail via your mobile phone app, you probably aren't accustomed to real-time conversations in email; but that is not the *design* of email. ChrisA
On 9/18/18 11:02 AM, Jonathan Goble wrote: list for my local community using the same software as python.org. When a thread gets out of bounds I can enter a message filter to hold for review any message matching the subject of that thread (or specified parts of it). While people can get around the filter by changing the subject line, they can do the same on a forum by starting a new topic. Someone who intentionally does this does get themselves on personal moderation. -- Richard Damon
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 04:48:18PM +0200, Robert Vanden Eynde <robertve92@gmail.com> wrote:
May I show mine: https://phdru.name/Software/mail-vs-web.html ? Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman https://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
SO is for Q&A, not for discussions. I recently had good success at the company I work for with Discourse, the sister/brother software to SO, which is designed specifically for discussions. https://www.discourse.org On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
-- Juancarlo *Añez*
my closing comment on this thread : i back discourse, atwood is a nice guy, he believes in his product. just mobile, mobile usage is a must. Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ Mauritius
participants (25)
-
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer -
Anders Hovmöller -
Antoine Pitrou -
Brett Cannon -
Cameron Simpson -
Chris Angelico -
Chris Barker -
David Mertz -
Ethan Furman -
Franklin? Lee -
Greg Ewing -
James Lu -
Jan Claeys -
Jonathan Goble -
Juancarlo Añez -
Mark E. Haase -
Michel Desmoulin -
Mike Miller -
Mikhail V -
Oleg Broytman -
Philippe Godbout -
Richard Damon -
Robert Vanden Eynde -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Yury Selivanov