Changing The Theme of Python Docs Site
Greetings, A proposal to change the theme of the Python docs. Great softwares are not distinguished by docs crankiness and unpleasantness. Though what's more important is the content, nevertheless it can be made more enjoyable to read. The Masonite docs for example is quite nice: https://docs.masoniteproject.com/ Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ> Mauritius
A recipe to have an idea be marginalized or ignored: 1. Start by denigrating the work of others with pejoratives like "cranky" and "unpleasant". 2. Do not provide any support to back such a claim, or call out any specific usability issue. 3. Imply that the content is deficient, without qualification. 4. Point to something that you just seem to like better, without comparison. 5. (Probably) expect others to implement your idea. Your work here is done. Paul On Fri, 2021-04-30 at 10:06 +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
Greetings,
A proposal to change the theme of the Python docs. Great softwares are not distinguished by docs crankiness and unpleasantness.
Though what's more important is the content, nevertheless it can be made more enjoyable to read.
The Masonite docs for example is quite nice: https://docs.masoniteproject.com/
Kind Regards,
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about | blog github Mauritius _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/TMK7RO... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Greetings, Interesting, i don't remember getting answers from you all this time i was posting to this list Normally you'd expect Mr Chris quipping along these lines: "Well you can have your *own* version of the docs locally, just do this and that" or the 'regular' folks posting
Great softwares are not distinguished by docs crankiness and unpleasantness.
That was intended to be humourous but if it hurts, i'm sorry, next time posting i'll be sure to write a page-full of respectful content. I withdraw my mail above and rephrase it below: Greetings list, I have been reading the Python docs since long. I have enjoyed it, it has great pieces of information. You have how-tos, faqs etc. Really awesome to read. However, I feel that the style is a bit bland and off putting for newcomers. I suggest we consider changing the theme to a crisper and cleaner look. I find docs such as Masonite really enjoyable to read: https://docs.masoniteproject.com/ I do hope we can advance something along these lines. Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ> Mauritius On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 10:34 AM Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> wrote:
A recipe to have an idea be marginalized or ignored:
1. Start by denigrating the work of others with pejoratives like "cranky" and "unpleasant". 2. Do not provide any support to back such a claim, or call out any specific usability issue. 3. Imply that the content is deficient, without qualification. 4. Point to something that you just seem to like better, without comparison. 5. (Probably) expect others to implement your idea. Your work here is done.
Paul
On Fri, 2021-04-30 at 10:06 +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
Greetings,
A proposal to change the theme of the Python docs. Great softwares are not distinguished by docs crankiness and unpleasantness.
Though what's more important is the content, nevertheless it can be made more enjoyable to read.
The Masonite docs for example is quite nice: https://docs.masoniteproject.com/
Kind Regards,
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ> Mauritius _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/TMK7RO... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer writes:
I have been reading the Python docs since long. I have enjoyed it, it has great pieces of information. You have how-tos, faqs etc. Really awesome to read.
Thank you! ;-)
However, I feel that the style is a bit bland and off putting for newcomers. I suggest we consider changing the theme to a crisper and cleaner look. I find docs such as Masonite really enjoyable to read: https://docs.masoniteproject.com/
I do hope we can advance something along these lines.
Despite my personal stylistic preferences (see below), I think this could be a move toward docs that makes people happy and proud to see their contribution in pixels, so I'm supportive in general. You should join the python-docs group (https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/docs.python.org/) and get in touch with the docs working group https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/LELGQN3H... to most effectively promote your ideas. That's where the folks who do a lot of work specifically on docs hang out. To get started on the discussion, just as one person's opinion: I'm not a fan of the Masonite color scheme, to be honest. (White on navy for the screen shots, to be specific. I find the Python docs' pastel backgrounds less jarring, and easily readable. But I'm not going to shoot down that hill, let alone die on it. ;-) Also, I don't really see a big difference with the Python documentation, and I prefer the denser Python text to that on the front page of Masonite (but I'm a *very* text-oriented person, drives my poor students nuts!) I didn't much like the dual sidebar layout. Overall I'd recommend tweaking the current theme to try to improve your readability, rather than moving to a completely different theme. I don't know if anybody else feels that way, so YMMV. Steve -- Associate Professor Division of Policy and Planning Science http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/ Faculty of Systems and Information Email: turnbull@sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tel: 029-853-5175 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
Greetings, I guess the difference is in a 'clean' look. I kind of find the docs as a reminder of some legacy software. The docs looks 'old' I know it's vague and subjective but maybe this rings with some more people. Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ> Mauritius
Hi Abdur-Rahmaan, while I don't think our docs look particularly bad, freshening up the looks a bit every now and then certainly is something which should be considered to better show case the quality of the product "Python". In particular, it would make sense to bring the themes of the main www.python.org website and the docs.python.org site closer together, as there is a fairly dramatic break between the two at the moment. The same goes for the devguide.python.org and the wiki.python.org. pypi.python.org is already a lot closer to the www.python.org design and looks even fresher (it was launched in 2017, some time after www.python.org, which was relaunched in 2014). All this is mostly about marketing, though, so I'm not sure whether this ML is the right place to discuss. Thanks, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Apr 30 2021)
Python Projects, Coaching and Support ... https://www.egenix.com/ Python Product Development ... https://consulting.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs ::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ https://www.malemburg.com/ On 30.04.2021 08:06, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
Greetings,
A proposal to change the theme of the Python docs. Great softwares are not distinguished by docs crankiness and unpleasantness.
Though what's more important is the content, nevertheless it can be made more enjoyable to read.
The Masonite docs for example is quite nice: https://docs.masoniteproject.com/
Kind Regards,
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ> Mauritius
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Greetings, That was an upto the point, precise and deep answer. Seems a design agency (who are Python programmers themselves, else they miss a thing or two) might do a nice job. Maybe what's missing is a design code (set of rules for headers, links, buttons etc) Well i subscribed to docs@python.org and waiting for mod approval, Will raise it over there. Thanks for input. Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ> Mauritius
On 30/04/2021 07:06, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
The Masonite docs for example is quite nice: https://docs.masoniteproject.com/ <https://docs.masoniteproject.com/>
I read as far as the 4th sentence: "Use it for your next SaaS!" [no link atached] What on earth (I wanted to use a stronger expression) is an SaaS? I'd never heard of it. OK, Google told we what it stood for, but I don't feel any the wiser. Rob Cliffe
Greetings, I read as far as the 4th sentence: "Use it for your next SaaS!" [no link atached] What on earth (I wanted to use a stronger expression) is an SaaS? I'd never heard of it. OK, Google told we what it stood for, but I don't feel any the wiser. Oh seems like you are a dinosaur needing some carbon dating. Many people are interested in launching SaaS nowadays. I'd say that you come from a different time as nowadays (at least some times back, there was a SaaS craze) ^^. I guess you are not much on LinkedIn or some similar platforms Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ> Mauritius
Woops i present my excuses list, it seems english jokes in my country don't play well overall. I never intend to insult people nor insinuate insults. @Rob Cliffe <rob.cliffe@btinternet.com> normally when i have old friends, i like to joke about how ancient they are. A dinosaur in tech deserves respect. Like i was reading the other day about how the sysadmin changed over time. Some old sysadmin were in close contact with kernels, compilers etc. Nowadays due to the expansion of knowledge people don't learn core topics but focus on the branches. Maybe i should explain what i mean.
Found the link i was referring to: https://psg.com/r.clue.html quote: <<I just had a *major* realization. A majority of the new net and/or UNIX admisnitrators don't know how to program computers. I don't mean they're not competent C hackers. They don't even know FORTRAN, COBOL, or Pascal. They have not learned the mindset. This means that they will not make, what are to me, obvious inferences. Their universe of cause and effect will be quite unexpected. They will be surprised by and misunderstand, what are to me, rather obvious things. I know this should have been obvious to the meanest intelligence. But I just realized it. The two preceding sentences are not in conflict. They must be rather frustrated and confused.>> @Rob Cliffe <rob.cliffe@btinternet.com> I was saying that if you don't know the flashy terms it's an indication that you come from a great time. Me myself i find myself no longer wanting to go deep into networking or the Linux kernel maybe because i no longer find myself near the v0 or v1 of things. Why i find a reason to dig deep is because of curiosity and to really become good at something. It's not a granted thing that if you are into computer science you'll automatically be exposed to the core level. When you see some new people in the field, sometimes it makes you wonder why they no longer take the care to know of fundamental things not taught. The SaaS term comes not from the circle of hackers[1]. [1] people who explore and experiment, not crackers or people who carry out illegal activities
As someone who does both Web design and Python regularly, I'd love to contribute to reworking/changing the Python docs theme. They are not terrible currently, there are certainly areas for improvement, both in overall layout and text styling. Bringing it closer to other Python branding may also be desirable. For me, the quality of a project's website is a major factor in whether or not I use it. If it looks old or badly styled, it is an indicator that there may not much be active development in the project. I apply this less to languages, as they are generally spoken about enough that one can use their reputation, but I can well imagine someone turning away from a language because the docs felt old or badly styled. On Mon, 3 May 2021 09:19 Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer, <arj.python@gmail.com> wrote:
Found the link i was referring to: https://psg.com/r.clue.html
quote:
<<I just had a *major* realization. A majority of the new net and/or UNIX admisnitrators don't know how to program computers. I don't mean they're not competent C hackers. They don't even know FORTRAN, COBOL, or Pascal. They have not learned the mindset.
This means that they will not make, what are to me, obvious inferences. Their universe of cause and effect will be quite unexpected. They will be surprised by and misunderstand, what are to me, rather obvious things.
I know this should have been obvious to the meanest intelligence. But I just realized it. The two preceding sentences are not in conflict.
They must be rather frustrated and confused.>>
@Rob Cliffe <rob.cliffe@btinternet.com> I was saying that if you don't know the flashy terms it's an indication that you come from a great time. Me myself i find myself no longer wanting to go deep into networking or the Linux kernel maybe because i no longer find myself near the v0 or v1 of things. Why i find a reason to dig deep is because of curiosity and to really become good at something. It's not a granted thing that if you are into computer science you'll automatically be exposed to the core level. When you see some new people in the field, sometimes it makes you wonder why they no longer take the care to know of fundamental things not taught.
The SaaS term comes not from the circle of hackers[1].
[1] people who explore and experiment, not crackers or people who carry out illegal activities
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I can well imagine someone turning away from a language because the docs felt old or badly styled. One practical effect of it is people preferring to read articles on other sites rather than consult the docs first. One piece of docs that is greatly explained is the sockets section. The part i am referring to is in the how to section i think. But i don't don't think much people read it first before starting to program. One site which balances aesthetics and great content is the RealPython site.
Yeah, the HOWTOs on the docs include the best explanations of Regex and bitwise operators (and probably other arcane concepts) that I've found anywhere on the Internet, and it would be great if they were themed in a way that felt equal to other great resources on the Internet. On Mon, 3 May 2021 09:49 Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer, <arj.python@gmail.com> wrote:
I can well imagine someone turning away from a language because the docs felt old or badly styled.
One practical effect of it is people preferring to read articles on other sites rather than consult the docs first. One piece of docs that is greatly explained is the sockets section. The part i am referring to is in the how to section i think. But i don't don't think much people read it first before starting to program. One site which balances aesthetics and great content is the RealPython site.
On Sun, 2021-05-02 at 23:07 +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
Oh seems like you are a dinosaur needing some carbon dating.
It seems you need to review the Python Community Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/ Please see the sections regarding being respectful and insults, jokes or put downs. Paul
I recommend posters read the code-of-conduct at the foot of every email on this list. On Sun, May 2, 2021, 3:07 PM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <arj.python@gmail.com> wrote:
Greetings,
I read as far as the 4th sentence: "Use it for your next SaaS!" [no link atached] What on earth (I wanted to use a stronger expression) is an SaaS? I'd never heard of it. OK, Google told we what it stood for, but I don't feel any the wiser.
Oh seems like you are a dinosaur needing some carbon dating. Many people are interested in launching SaaS nowadays. I'd say that you come from a different time as nowadays (at least some times back, there was a SaaS craze) ^^.
I guess you are not much on LinkedIn or some similar platforms
Kind Regards,
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ> Mauritius _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/NSUTYF... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On 30/04/2021 14:29, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
On 30/04/2021 07:06, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
The Masonite docs for example is quite nice: https://docs.masoniteproject.com/ <https://docs.masoniteproject.com/>
I read as far as the 4th sentence: "Use it for your next SaaS!" [no link atached] What on earth (I wanted to use a stronger expression) is an SaaS? I'd never heard of it. OK, Google told we what it stood for, but I don't feel any the wiser. Rob Cliffe
It means "mainframe". If you get an account on their computer, you're allowed to log in and pay to use the software. It's very modern: at last, the value of free, open-source software can accrue to rich industrialists, for whom we should all be working in our spare time. I'm with you that the writing in the Masonite docs is not an example to follow. I only got as far as "actual batteries included" before doubts set in. Then the writer loses control of the sentence structure, obscuring the thought he began. However, visual style not literary content is the question. The visual style is quite like the existing Python docs prepared in ReST (e.g. https://docs.python.org/3/reference/expressions.html). The Sphinx "Alabaster" theme is even cleaner, but intended in part, I think, as a blank canvas for your branding. I prefer the way the sidebar scrolls independently in the Masonite site. I found no examples of images, diagrams or tables to compare. I would not say there was much wrong with the Python visual style, but then I'm used to spending hours in the (downloaded) documentation. Is it really just GitBook that we are slightly admiring? You would not, I think, want to re-write the ReST documents in GitBook, just to get a cleaner look. Time from someone clever with CSS in Sphinx may be all it takes. If you follow the documentation link on the home page to https://www.python.org/doc/, much of that links to the wiki, which in my opinion does look a bit cobwebby. Style is only part of problem: the size and proportions of text look pokey to me. Here the content does not read very well, being crowd-sourced I imagine without much editorial control. (E.g. https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide is unsure of its level: veering from "if you've never programmed before" through to inviting patches.) Were we including the Wiki in this? Jeff Allen
Time from someone clever with CSS in Sphinx may be all it takes. Yes, agree 👍, i am not suggesting other docs systems but just reconsidering the style. @Marc indeed raised the question of overall consistency which i guess will be addressed one day or the other. As for the wiki besides, look there are many, many issues in terms of outdated content.
I think improving the online documentation is a good idea. How can this effort avoid merely addressing subjective preferences? Beauty in the eye of the beholder, and all that. This appears to be the current style guide: https://devguide.python.org/documenting/ It largely focuses on content. Would it be worth codifying additional aesthetic and usability objectives, and build consensus around them? Are there other sites that have refreshed their styles we can learn from? For example, Wikipedia did a refresh last year. Paul On Mon, 2021-05-03 at 13:57 +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
Time from someone clever with CSS in Sphinx may be all it takes.
Yes, agree 👍, i am not suggesting other docs systems but just reconsidering the style.
@Marc indeed raised the question of overall consistency which i guess will be addressed one day or the other. As for the wiki besides, look there are many, many issues in terms of outdated content. _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/WLKNFY... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Greetings list, Julien Palard responded with the following: *Hi Abdur,> However, I feel that the style is a bit bland and off putting> for newcomers. I suggest we consider changing the theme> to a crisper and cleaner look. I find docs such as Masonite> really enjoyable to read: https://docs.masoniteproject.com/ <https://docs.masoniteproject.com/>> <https://docs.masoniteproject.com/ <https://docs.masoniteproject.com/>>Glad you asked!Lot of work is currently being done to enhance the theme:- https://github.com/python/python-docs-theme/pull/46 <https://github.com/python/python-docs-theme/pull/46>- https://github.com/python/python-docs-theme/pull/44 <https://github.com/python/python-docs-theme/pull/44>- https://github.com/python/docs-community/issues/1 <https://github.com/python/docs-community/issues/1>feel free to participate and help there.* Since this is news to me and kind of relate to what we have been discussing here, i'll have to go over and understand to what extend (beyond responsiveness) the current work is being done etc. @Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> Django did a refresh of their site 'recently' https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/3.2/, they contacted someone who has some design taste. Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ> Mauritius
Paul Bryan writes:
It largely focuses on content. Would it be worth codifying additional aesthetic and usability objectives, and build consensus around them?
We're literally talking about painting a bikeshed! Just do it, and if people don't like it enough it gets rolled back. My two sen (yen/100 :-)
On 03.05.2021 11:57, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
Time from someone clever with CSS in Sphinx may be all it takes.
Yes, agree 👍, i am not suggesting other docs systems but just reconsidering the style.
@Marc indeed raised the question of overall consistency which i guess will be addressed one day or the other. As for the wiki besides, look there are many, many issues in terms of outdated content.
Wiki content is managed by the users, so anyone can help improve it :-) Just ask for editing permissions as outlined on the front page. BTW: You may want to continue these discussions in this Discourse category: https://discuss.python.org/c/core-dev/documentation/26 There's a new documentation WG dealing with documentation issues. I don't know whether styling and corporate identity is part of the scope, but you will definitely have to get them on-board as part of the deal. For the overarching CI manual, I'd suggest to have the PSF hire a design agency -- this avoid the bike shedding and gives more consistent results. Thanks, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, May 08 2021)
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::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs ::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ https://www.malemburg.com/
On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 3:16 AM M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> wrote:
There's a new documentation WG dealing with documentation issues.
Thanks — I hadn’t had a chance to point that out — but that’s where folks can contribute— kibitzing on this list is just a waste of time.
I don't know whether styling and corporate identity is part of the scope,
They just announced a new theme — so yes. -CHB -- Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) Python Language Consulting - Teaching - Scientific Software Development - Desktop GUI and Web Development - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
Greetings list, Created thread + summary: https://discuss.python.org/t/changing-the-theme-of-the-python-docs-styling/8... Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ> Mauritius
On 4/29/21 11:06 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
Greetings,
A proposal to change the theme of the Python docs.
The current docs theme is decent I think. Liked your link to the masonite docs theme slightly better, though not hugely different. However! One thing that drives me nuts about the current Python docs theme is the FULL JUSTIFICATION that adds random spaces into each line to make the edges line up! Whatever y'all do, please remove that. :D I sometimes deactivate it in the browser dev tools but there it is again next refresh. -Mike
On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:05 PM Mike Miller <python-ideas@mgmiller.net> wrote:
One thing that drives me nuts about the current Python docs theme is the FULL JUSTIFICATION that adds random spaces into each line to make the edges line up!
Whatever y'all do, please remove that. :D I sometimes deactivate it in the browser dev tools but there it is again next refresh.
Please. Full justification is nice with narrow columns like newspapers, but on the web with wider paragraphs, it's annoying. I'd love to see it yanked from the Python docs.
I agree with the comment about removing full justification. Also, I think the Masonite docs' navigation is far superior to the Python docs. I like the full contents on the left, along with the version button, and the local jump on the right. The python docs require you to navigate somehwere else for the full contents. And, I don't undrstand why anyone would want "previous topic/next topic"—it's not like you're curling up with the Python docs before bed :) Finally, putting the docs in the center of the screen is better on today's giant monitors. On Tuesday, May 4, 2021 at 11:21:48 PM UTC-4 Jonathan Goble wrote:
On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:05 PM Mike Miller <python...@mgmiller.net> wrote:
One thing that drives me nuts about the current Python docs theme is the FULL JUSTIFICATION that adds random spaces into each line to make the edges line up!
Whatever y'all do, please remove that. :D I sometimes deactivate it in the browser dev tools but there it is again next refresh.
Please. Full justification is nice with narrow columns like newspapers, but on the web with wider paragraphs, it's annoying. I'd love to see it yanked from the Python docs.
participants (12)
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Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
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Christopher Barker
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David Mertz
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Holly Short
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Jeff Allen
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Jonathan Goble
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M.-A. Lemburg
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Mike Miller
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Neil Girdhar
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Paul Bryan
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Rob Cliffe
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Stephen J. Turnbull