1. Re: Python 3000 TIOBE -3% (Massimo Di Pierro)   2. Re: Python 3000 TIOBE -3% (Guido van Rossum)   3. Re: Python 3000 TIOBE -3% (Sturla Molden)   4. Re: Python 3000 TIOBE -3% (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 12:25:18 -0600 From: Massimo Di Pierro To: Steven D'Aprano Cc: python-ideas

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Massimo Di Pierro wrote:

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Here is another data point: http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2012/02/08/language-rankings-2-2012/ Unfortunately the TIOBE index does matter. I can speak for python in education and trends I seen. Python is and remains the easiest language to teach but it is no longer true that getting Python to run is easer than alternatives (not for the average undergrad student).

Is that a commentary on Python, or the average undergrad student?

I teach so the average student is my benchmark. Please do not misunderstand. While some may be lazy, but the average CS undergrad is not stupid but quite intelligent. They just do not like wasting time with setups and I sympathize with that. Batteries included is the Python motto.

I'm going to delurk from this list and really back up Massimo here. It's not precisely his issue, but it's close enough to count. While we love our Linux and BSD variants, and OS X usage is growing, the truth of the matter is that the clear majority of people learning Python at the entry level do so on Windows. And I can assure you having attended many of the tutorials given by PyLadies and other groups, the part that took the most amount of time was ensuring a correct installation on Windows. It's not just a matter of getting the installation onto the machine, it's a matter of making sure the paths are set correctly so they can follow code examples trivially. In fact, at PyLadies tutorial events they would give literally special party hats to teachers who could get Python running under ideal conditions under Windows. And still it ate a lot of time and caused frustration. Frustration that gets shared with management and other people. I'm well aware that this matter of installation has been 'addressed'. There is a complex PEP to handle different version installs on Windows. I can go and click on a small link on the home page of python.org and download one-click installer that DOESN'T set up Windows paths. I can follow instructions 'somewhere' and get the paths set up, but I shouldn't have too. Students should be able to one-click Python and have it just work. Yet, for all the times I've been told it's fixed or we've complained about it and been told "It's getting fixed!", it is still an ongoing problem. If I were a Windows developer I would fix it today. So perhaps this should become a GSOC project of high priority: One click install of Python on Windows on a version hosted by python.org. Note: People suggest virtual machines or Vagrant. This works on new machines, but you try getting any of that working on an old Windows machine in a room of 40-100 students waiting on installation. Providing laptops for the event are also completely out of budget for most of these events. In order to make this issue as clear as possible, I'm going to quote Audrey Roy: "The number one thing that Python educators struggle with on entry level tutorials is Windows installations of Python. Ask me, ask Zed Shaw, ask any of the PyLadies." -- 'Knowledge is Power' Daniel Greenfeld http://pydanny.blogspot.com