This is a crazy idea that popped into my head recently. What if python-dev were to be renamed to something like python-internals? (Yeah, that's a bad name, but my naming skills suck...) Basically, something that gets across the idea that it's for development of Python, not in Python. Python-dev would visibly disappear, but mails sent to python-dev would be redirected to the new name. BTW, in reality, it's not an uncommon mistake. I know of a few mailing lists built for development *with* a tool that end in -dev, such as asmjit-dev. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
On 7/9/2015 3:11 PM, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
Changing the list would take more effort than severals years of redirecting people. (The name bikeshedding alone ...) The current description is "Python core developers". Is that ambiguous? Think of anything better. "Development of the Python language and CPython implementation"?
-- Terry Jan Reedy
On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 14:11:36 -0500 Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
This is a crazy idea that popped into my head recently.
What if python-dev were to be renamed to something like python-internals? (Yeah, that's a bad name, but my naming skills suck...) Basically, something that gets across the idea that it's for development of Python, not in Python.
We don't really get many people making the mistake, so I think it's ok to keep it as-is. Regards Antoine.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 3:11 AM, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
You can't solve a social problem with technology, and I have evidence to back up this specific case. Django has a -dev and -users mailing list (following Python's example). We have exactly the same problem of people posting "how do I" questions to -dev, and the same recurring theme of posts that claim "if we just rename the group, the problem will go away". Our mailing lists are on Google Groups, so we have the option of setting a public name for the group that is different to the mail alias. About a year ago, we changed the name of the group from "Django Developers" to "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)". When you sign up for the mailing list, you see that title, and confirm that this is the group you want to sign up for. Less than 2 days after the rename took effect, we had our first -dev post that should have been posted to -users. Since then, the rate of incorrectly addressed posts hasn't significantly changed from before the name change. We have a similar problem with the DSF contact page: https://www.djangoproject.com/contact/foundation/ The top of that page has a series of instructions indicating that the contact form is for the legal and fundraising arm of the project, and suggests several places to post inquiries about technical matters. And yet, we get 2-3 contact requests a week for technical assistance. The same is also true of the page to create new tickets on the Django bug tracker. https://code.djangoproject.com/newticket Despite the notices, we still get security reports and requests for help lodged as tickets. The moral of the story: evidence shows that no matter what the name, or the instructions given, people will get it wrong. Yes, these posts are annoying - but it's a teachable moment for people you are hoping to incorporate into your community. The best option (IMHO) is to politely redirect their question to -users, possibly with a link to a wiki page or documentation entry that describes the sources of help that are available for newcomers. It's also worth taking the time to work out what funnel has led people to post to the "wrong place". *Something* has led them to believe that posting to -dev is the right solution to their problem - how can the website or other resources be changed to alter that perception? Some deeper analytics on the path people have taken to get to the -dev signup page might help here. Yours, Russ Magee %-)
On Jul 9, 2015 9:53 PM, "Russell Keith-Magee" <russell@keith-magee.com> wrote:
python-internals? (Yeah, that's a bad name, but my naming skills suck...) Basically, something that gets across the idea that it's for development of Python, not in Python. lists built for development *with* a tool that end in -dev, such as asmjit-dev.
You can't solve a social problem with technology, and I have evidence to
back up this specific case.
Django has a -dev and -users mailing list (following Python's example).
We have exactly the same problem of people posting "how do I" questions to -dev, and the same recurring theme of posts that claim "if we just rename the group, the problem will go away". Either: * not responded to * redirected (project src, builds,docs, issues links) * request for more information (to narrow scope; information gain; "-keywords TypeError") * "is there a coredump / stack trace uploader?" * in scope; ensuing discussion * answered/solved
Our mailing lists are on Google Groups, so we have the option of setting
a public name for the group that is different to the mail alias. About a year ago, we changed the name of the group from "Django Developers" to "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)". When you sign up for the mailing list, you see that title, and confirm that this is the group you want to sign up for.
Less than 2 days after the rename took effect, we had our first -dev post
that should have been posted to -users. Since then, the rate of incorrectly addressed posts hasn't significantly changed from before the name change. Is there an ASCII block of text with each of the project links that could be appropriately pasted/helpfully suggested according to e.g. a #keywords and/or natural language patterns? https://westurner.org/wiki/ideas#open-source-mailing-list-extractor ("Looks like a mailing list optimization request; here are the relevant project links") ... The workflow is always "find similar from ( defined set, wider set ) [go fish]", link/crossref/clarify; test; write tests/docs; build (test); backtrack to traceable issue identifier (#6, urn:x-:org/proj/6) and follow-up (with a link for traceability). Is this at all relevant? * No, there is no justifiable reason to rename the mailing list (because I label them all .l.py) * #MailingListTriage
contact form is for the legal and fundraising arm of the project, and suggests several places to post inquiries about technical matters. And yet, we get 2-3 contact requests a week for technical assistance.
The same is also true of the page to create new tickets on the Django bug
tracker.
https://code.djangoproject.com/newticket
Despite the notices, we still get security reports and requests for help
lodged as tickets.
The moral of the story: evidence shows that no matter what the name, or
the instructions given, people will get it wrong. Yes, these posts are annoying - but it's a teachable moment for people you are hoping to incorporate into your community. The best option (IMHO) is to politely redirect their question to -users, possibly with a link to a wiki page or documentation entry that describes the sources of help that are available for newcomers.
It's also worth taking the time to work out what funnel has led people to
post to the "wrong place". *Something* has led them to believe that posting to -dev is the right solution to their problem - how can the website or other resources be changed to alter that perception? Some deeper analytics on the path people have taken to get to the -dev signup page might help here.
On 7/9/2015 3:11 PM, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
Changing the list would take more effort than severals years of redirecting people. (The name bikeshedding alone ...) The current description is "Python core developers". Is that ambiguous? Think of anything better. "Development of the Python language and CPython implementation"?
-- Terry Jan Reedy
On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 14:11:36 -0500 Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
This is a crazy idea that popped into my head recently.
What if python-dev were to be renamed to something like python-internals? (Yeah, that's a bad name, but my naming skills suck...) Basically, something that gets across the idea that it's for development of Python, not in Python.
We don't really get many people making the mistake, so I think it's ok to keep it as-is. Regards Antoine.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 3:11 AM, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
You can't solve a social problem with technology, and I have evidence to back up this specific case. Django has a -dev and -users mailing list (following Python's example). We have exactly the same problem of people posting "how do I" questions to -dev, and the same recurring theme of posts that claim "if we just rename the group, the problem will go away". Our mailing lists are on Google Groups, so we have the option of setting a public name for the group that is different to the mail alias. About a year ago, we changed the name of the group from "Django Developers" to "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)". When you sign up for the mailing list, you see that title, and confirm that this is the group you want to sign up for. Less than 2 days after the rename took effect, we had our first -dev post that should have been posted to -users. Since then, the rate of incorrectly addressed posts hasn't significantly changed from before the name change. We have a similar problem with the DSF contact page: https://www.djangoproject.com/contact/foundation/ The top of that page has a series of instructions indicating that the contact form is for the legal and fundraising arm of the project, and suggests several places to post inquiries about technical matters. And yet, we get 2-3 contact requests a week for technical assistance. The same is also true of the page to create new tickets on the Django bug tracker. https://code.djangoproject.com/newticket Despite the notices, we still get security reports and requests for help lodged as tickets. The moral of the story: evidence shows that no matter what the name, or the instructions given, people will get it wrong. Yes, these posts are annoying - but it's a teachable moment for people you are hoping to incorporate into your community. The best option (IMHO) is to politely redirect their question to -users, possibly with a link to a wiki page or documentation entry that describes the sources of help that are available for newcomers. It's also worth taking the time to work out what funnel has led people to post to the "wrong place". *Something* has led them to believe that posting to -dev is the right solution to their problem - how can the website or other resources be changed to alter that perception? Some deeper analytics on the path people have taken to get to the -dev signup page might help here. Yours, Russ Magee %-)
On Jul 9, 2015 9:53 PM, "Russell Keith-Magee" <russell@keith-magee.com> wrote:
python-internals? (Yeah, that's a bad name, but my naming skills suck...) Basically, something that gets across the idea that it's for development of Python, not in Python. lists built for development *with* a tool that end in -dev, such as asmjit-dev.
You can't solve a social problem with technology, and I have evidence to
back up this specific case.
Django has a -dev and -users mailing list (following Python's example).
We have exactly the same problem of people posting "how do I" questions to -dev, and the same recurring theme of posts that claim "if we just rename the group, the problem will go away". Either: * not responded to * redirected (project src, builds,docs, issues links) * request for more information (to narrow scope; information gain; "-keywords TypeError") * "is there a coredump / stack trace uploader?" * in scope; ensuing discussion * answered/solved
Our mailing lists are on Google Groups, so we have the option of setting
a public name for the group that is different to the mail alias. About a year ago, we changed the name of the group from "Django Developers" to "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)". When you sign up for the mailing list, you see that title, and confirm that this is the group you want to sign up for.
Less than 2 days after the rename took effect, we had our first -dev post
that should have been posted to -users. Since then, the rate of incorrectly addressed posts hasn't significantly changed from before the name change. Is there an ASCII block of text with each of the project links that could be appropriately pasted/helpfully suggested according to e.g. a #keywords and/or natural language patterns? https://westurner.org/wiki/ideas#open-source-mailing-list-extractor ("Looks like a mailing list optimization request; here are the relevant project links") ... The workflow is always "find similar from ( defined set, wider set ) [go fish]", link/crossref/clarify; test; write tests/docs; build (test); backtrack to traceable issue identifier (#6, urn:x-:org/proj/6) and follow-up (with a link for traceability). Is this at all relevant? * No, there is no justifiable reason to rename the mailing list (because I label them all .l.py) * #MailingListTriage
contact form is for the legal and fundraising arm of the project, and suggests several places to post inquiries about technical matters. And yet, we get 2-3 contact requests a week for technical assistance.
The same is also true of the page to create new tickets on the Django bug
tracker.
https://code.djangoproject.com/newticket
Despite the notices, we still get security reports and requests for help
lodged as tickets.
The moral of the story: evidence shows that no matter what the name, or
the instructions given, people will get it wrong. Yes, these posts are annoying - but it's a teachable moment for people you are hoping to incorporate into your community. The best option (IMHO) is to politely redirect their question to -users, possibly with a link to a wiki page or documentation entry that describes the sources of help that are available for newcomers.
It's also worth taking the time to work out what funnel has led people to
post to the "wrong place". *Something* has led them to believe that posting to -dev is the right solution to their problem - how can the website or other resources be changed to alter that perception? Some deeper analytics on the path people have taken to get to the -dev signup page might help here.
participants (6)
-
Antoine Pitrou -
Russell Keith-Magee -
Ryan Gonzalez -
Skip Montanaro -
Terry Reedy -
Wes Turner