I too feel it's inappropriate. A request direct from a client/employer would I think be OK, especially if the client were a python enthusiast. But this forum is inappropriate for agencies. On 13/12/2010 16:31, Alec Battles wrote:

Am I the only one who considers this a bit spammy?

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Richard Catley <RCatley@fuelrecruitment.co.uk <mailto:RCatley@fuelrecruitment.co.uk>> wrote:

Dear all

I'm looking for two permanent Python/Django developers to join a high profile incubated startup in London. You will have strong development skills and be happy to work with a very dedicated technical team. You will need to be London based. Salary is negotiable depending on experience but this is a great opportunity to work at the leading edge of social media. I'm more than happy to send you the full details once contact has been made. We have interview slots available so please get in touch.

Kind regards

Richard

Richard Catley *Fuel Recruitment* 17, Waterloo Place Warwick Street Leamington Spa

Warwickshire

CV32 5LA

Tel: 08712 007 007 Fax: 08712 007 008 Web: www.fuelrecruitment.co.uk <http://www.fuelrecruitment.co.uk/> www.linkedin.com/in/richardcatley <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardcatley> Please click on the following link if you would like to comment on the service you have received: Fuel Survey <https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/fuelquicklink_survey> //This electronic message contains information from Fuel Recruitment Ltd. which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the addressee of this email, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. //|/If you have received this e-mail in error please e-mail the author by replying to this message and delete the material from your computer. While reasonable precautions have been taken to ensure no viruses are present in this e-mail, you are responsible for carrying out your own virus checks and Fuel Recruitment Ltd. does not accept any responsibility for loss or damage thereby arising./|

|Fuel Recruitment is a company registered in England & Wales with Company Number 04677878 & VAT Registration 812 1032 93|

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On 13 December 2010 16:31, Alec Battles <alec.battles@gmail.com> wrote:

Am I the only one who considers this a bit spammy?

No ;-) On some other lists to which I subscribe, agencies are regarded as the lowest of the low and are banned. John --

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Richard Catley < RCatley@fuelrecruitment.co.uk> wrote:

...

Dear all

I’m looking for two permanent Python/Django developers to join a high profile incubated startup in London. You will have strong development skills and be happy to work with a very dedicated technical team. You will need to be London based. Salary is negotiable depending on experience but this is a great opportunity to work at the leading edge of social media. I’m more than happy to send you the full details once contact has been made. We have interview slots available so please get in touch.

Kind regards

Richard

Richard Catley *Fuel Recruitment* 17, Waterloo Place Warwick Street Leamington Spa

Warwickshire

CV32 5LA

Tel: 08712 007 007 Fax: 08712 007 008 Web: www.fuelrecruitment.co.uk

www.linkedin.com/in/richardcatley

Please click on the following link if you would like to comment on the service you have received: Fuel Survey<https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/fuelquicklink_survey>

*This electronic message contains information from Fuel Recruitment Ltd. which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the addressee of this email, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. **If you have received this e-mail in error please e-mail the author by replying to this message and delete the material from your computer. While reasonable precautions have been taken to ensure no viruses are present in this e-mail, you are responsible for carrying out your own virus checks and Fuel Recruitment Ltd. does not accept any responsibility for loss or damage thereby arising.*

Fuel Recruitment is a company registered in England & Wales with Company Number 04677878 & VAT Registration 812 1032 93

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HI, On 13 December 2010 19:36, Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> wrote:

On 13/12/2010 7:27 PM, John Pinner wrote:

...

On 13 December 2010 16:31, Alec Battles<alec.battles@gmail.com>  wrote:

...

Am I the only one who considers this a bit spammy?

No ;-)

On some other lists to which I subscribe, agencies are regarded as the lowest of the low and are banned.

I'm genuinely surprised by this reaction which comes up even more forcefully on the main Python lists. It seems like a reasonable use of a (technically and geographically) focused mailing list. You might not like job agencies, but there doesn't seem to be anything intrinsically wrong with them.

Am I missing something? Is some kind of Linux-culture thing which doesn't spill over...?

You're probably missing the employer's view, from which perspective they provide a very low level of service, often bordering on the incompetent, and at a very high price. I don't think it's anything to do with Linux culture, except that they all seem incapable of recognising that the requirements of a Linux shop differ from an MS shop, and persist in proposing people with MSCE and Access 'database' experience... And there are Python and Linux job boards... John --

On 13 Dec 2010, at 19:36, Tim Golden wrote:

I'm genuinely surprised by this reaction which comes up even more forcefully on the main Python lists. It seems like a reasonable use of a (technically and geographically) focused mailing list. You might not like job agencies, but there doesn't seem to be anything intrinsically wrong with them.

Am I missing something? Is some kind of Linux-culture thing which doesn't spill over...?

+1 The Python community is still very small; I was surprised at the last Europython to discover that most of the people present did not earn a wage from Python. Anything that helps more pythonistas earn a living from their passion is good IMO. While I can understand strong opposition on the main Python list (which is about the language itself), python-uk is a low-volume list for discussions about the Python *community* in this country... and jobs are a part of that. Obviously, once tens of thousands of UK devs earn their living from Python, then I will join the "NO" camp :-)

So, if one hears about a Python job role it won't be considered nice of him to let the rest on this list know? Just asking, no irony intended. --- Sebastian Komianos http://about.me/sebkom http://twitter.com/sebkom On 13 Dec 2010, at 19:36, Jakub Gustak <jgustak@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Am I the only one who considers this a bit spammy?

+1

This is not job board. If one decides to post a job offer here better make it more precise.

That's my 5p _ jlg _______________________________________________ python-uk mailing list python-uk@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Will McGugan <will@willmcgugan.com> wrote:

I don't mind jobs being posted here. Although recruiters could get annoying, because they tend not to give a way details regarding how Python is used. There could also be a dozen posts for the same job if it gets out of hand. Will

This was my point more or less.

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:21 PM, Ben Corke <ben@creue.co.uk> wrote:

I am happy to devote some time helping with the dev and management  of a Python job board. I have designed and implemented a couple of successful small job boards in the past, so sure I can add value.

There already is a python job board: http://www.python.org/community/jobs/ (International but it covers the UK) Given there seems to be a split in opinions why not create a python-uk-jobs mailing list that way people who want to subscribe to Python jobs can do so, without it bothering everyone else. Katie -- CoderStack http://www.coderstack.co.uk The Software Developer Job Board

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Ben Corke <ben@creue.co.uk> wrote:

Anyway, not sure there are enough UK jobs out there to justify a UK board currently, but I'm seeing Python as part of a skillset becoming more and more popular over the last few years, especially in the embedded sector.

I would have said most of the growth is in web dev. Certainly from the django events I've been to the majority of django devs seem to be doing it professionally. Katie -- CoderStack http://www.coderstack.co.uk/python-jobs The Software Developer Job Board

I work in the financial sector. Python is definately increasing. Some systems are being written in Python, but that's not its main use. Certainly not for calculations and financial models, where they normally have to be very fast. It's popular as a repacement for Perl, for example in batch automation. I've also used it for reporting: its excellent ability to interface to libraries means you can drive Excel (or most things .Net) from Python. I even used it to link to Bloomberg once, creating a framework to get the data to test some finanical models. Report Lab does a fair bit of work in the financial sector in a rather different field. Little in the web field in Finance: maybe that's just my persoanl experience. On 15/12/2010 11:57, Matt Hamilton wrote:

We've also seen it (as a python web dev company) increase quite a bit in the web field. Another big area I keep seeing python jobs advertised are in the financial services industry. Just as engineers used fortran and business people used cobol, I think financial services are using python for a good language to write calculations/simulations of financial models.

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Jonathan Hartley <tartley@tartley.com> wrote:

Can I ask you to clarify one thing you mentioned? My understanding was that speed of numerical modelling was only of such vital import if you are doing low-latency automated trading, in the sort of scenario where you need to be on a box placed on a LAN in proximity to the trading server, in order to make sub-millisecond trades. On the other hand, if you're running across the internet, then any slowdown due to using Python verses another language would be vastly swamped by network and other IO delays. Am I very much mistaken?

You're right that a lot of financial calculations are used in areas outside of low-latency, but even for end of day batch procedures these things need to be optimized purely because we're talking about huge amounts of computation here. Calculations that can take hours even in fortran or c. Plus due to the large amount of legacy libraries in Fortran/C++ it tends to mean those languages are favoured even when speed isn't critical. Most Python usage I've seen in finance has been as a glue language often replacing Perl or Bash scripts or to do rapid prototyping, especially in conjunction with tools like QuickFix. Katie -- CoderStack http://www.coderstack.co.uk/python-jobs The Software Developer Job Board

This is all fascinating stuff, I've learned a lot. If this is the outcome of recruiters posting on the list, I'm all for it! On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:02 PM, Andy Robinson <andy@reportlab.com> wrote:

...

Report Lab does a fair bit of work in the financial sector in a rather different field. Sorry, the light took a while to reach the batcave tonight...

I was pushing Python in finance back in 1997/8, and there have been many, many people using it (usually under the radar at first) in the City for a long time. In the old days it excelled at gluing systems together, scripting other peoples' C code, and prototyping algorithms. There were many times when people needed a solution faster than "IT" could organise it, and being freely available and able to work with Excel, it helped a lot of quants.

Now, of course, Python is mainstream, and other languages have got a lot better at the 'glue' and web stuff and caught up to some degree.

On 15 December 2010 14:02, Jonathan Hartley <tartley@tartley.com> wrote:

...

On the other hand, if you're running across the internet, then any slowdown due to using Python verses another language would be vastly swamped by network and other IO delays. Am I very much mistaken?

There are no general answers to that question. There are indeed many cases where people needlessly worry about the language when network and IO dominate. There are also lots of cases where you want to do some kind of "atomic job" on one machine, and find it's an order of magnitude too slow in a high level language. There are some "Monte Carlo" approaches to pricing securities which have no analytic solution; and in the retail sector it's fashionable now to show 'clouds of outcomes' about where your pension might end up, needing 10000 random walks to plot a chart and spit out a 2-3 page PDF including it.

Two of the beauties of Python in this area are that (a) you can afford to rewrite your algorithm several times and be sure it's the best approach, and (b) if you really need to, it's easy to shift the 'inner loops' into C.

Putting it in perspective, I even know some people in the City who find hand-coded C too slow for their simulations, and who are basically writing microcode for chips in order to put a supercomputer under their desk!

The bigger question is whether all this horsepower ultimately leads to better investment performance. I will stay out of that one ;-)

-- Andy Robinson ReportLab _______________________________________________ python-uk mailing list python-uk@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk

On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Andy Robinson wrote: [...]

I have always felt that if people wanted to discuss technical stuff, they would tend to use comp.lang.python, StackOverflow or whatever to get the widest input. A UK list is pretty much here for meetups, local (including City) news and jobs, and maybe chitchat about 'who is using what'. [...]

+1 John

On 13 Dec 2010, at 16:31, Alec Battles wrote:

Am I the only one who considers this a bit spammy?

Obviously not, but I can't see how this is spam. As Tim pointed out, this is a technically and geographically focussed list and this post is relevant both in terms of technology and location. Furthermore I've seen other job postings on this list go by without any comment about them being inappropriate or spammy. Besides, where else should anyone post jobs for Pythonistas in the UK..? Here would seem to be an obvious place (among several options) and it's not as if we're inundated with these types of request. Also, while I've had to deal with more than my fair share of $#!7 job agencies (see this recent tweet: http://twitter.com/#!/ntoll/status/13239003654397953 - and lets be honest here, they don't do themselves any favours in that department) I've also dealt with some really great ones (honest!). If you've come to the conclusion that this is spam simply because it is from an agency then I'm afraid you're simply being prejudiced. Nicholas.

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Richard Catley <RCatley@fuelrecruitment.co.uk> wrote: Dear all

I’m looking for two permanent Python/Django developers to join a high profile incubated startup in London. You will have strong development skills and be happy to work with a very dedicated technical team. You will need to be London based. Salary is negotiable depending on experience but this is a great opportunity to work at the leading edge of social media. I’m more than happy to send you the full details once contact has been made. We have interview slots available so please get in touch.

Kind regards

Richard

Richard Catley Fuel Recruitment 17, Waterloo Place Warwick Street Leamington Spa Warwickshire CV32 5LA

Tel: 08712 007 007 Fax: 08712 007 008 Web: www.fuelrecruitment.co.uk

<Mail Attachment.jpeg>

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Please click on the following link if you would like to comment on the service you have received: Fuel Survey

This electronic message contains information from Fuel Recruitment Ltd. which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the addressee of this email, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please e-mail the author by replying to this message and delete the material from your computer. While reasonable precautions have been taken to ensure no viruses are present in this e-mail, you are responsible for carrying out your own virus checks and Fuel Recruitment Ltd. does not accept any responsibility for loss or damage thereby arising. Fuel Recruitment is a company registered in England & Wales with Company Number 04677878 & VAT Registration 812 1032 93

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On 13 December 2010 16:31, Alec Battles <alec.battles@gmail.com> wrote:

Am I the only one who considers this a bit spammy?

No I also consider it more spam than ham when it is a vague advert rather than details for a real job. If it doesn't have real details (precise location, industry, salary in pounds, etc) then it is as likely be to fishing to fill up a client database that can be sold to employers later, than a real job that exists now. I have no objections when it is a real company posting directly with real details.

On 17 December 2010 08:56, Ross Lawley <ross.lawley@gmail.com> wrote:

Personally, I would have scanned and then ignored the message had it not had 31 replies!!

The irony further underlined by you adding another (and then me too!). Merry Christmas to all UK Pythonistas!