Re: [Pythonedu-wg] A new, kid-friendly Python editor
Lots of great discussion but I'm losing track of our list, so I've moved it to a google doc. Please suggest amendments so that we can get a final list together to vote on before we turn to finding volunteers to help build it. Then we will take it to a testing phase to get feedback from real learners!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rXM2-Up59PbOEXqZHbo_jj-zPFkhc---kVVMinPp...
Thanks,
Carrie Anne.
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Dave Ames david.john.ames@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:50 Nicholas H.Tollervey ntoll@ntoll.org wrote:
On 22/09/15 17:46, Dave Ames wrote:
I would suspect that (rightly or wrongly) most school network technicians would be extremely wary of giving students access to a system shell of any kind.
Then most school network technicians are fools and should not have ANY input in such decisions.
NOTE: I'm highly biased about this. ;-)
N.
Pythonedu-wg mailing list Pythonedu-wg@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonedu-wg
Absolutely no disagreement from me there. If they've configured everything correctly then access to the command line for students, should present absolutely no threat to the network. But!
The default state is "no command line", even though access to Python/Idle probably gives them at least the same level (if not more) of danger.
Dave
-- Education Pioneer Raspberry Pi Foundation
UK Charity No. 1129409
I'd move a REPL from the "nice to have" to the "mandatory" list. The interactive shell is really nice when the student just has to learn what a new function or method does.
The most common confusions students have told me about with IDLE are:
- Mixing up the interactive shell and file editor windows.
- Mixing up Python 2 and 3 (either the wrong code or running the wrong IDLE)
+1 for Python 3 only
+1 for using PyPI as a Python appstore. I think this idea has promise. One of Scratch's great features is that students can upload and show off their programs.
+1 for syntax highlighting. Don't discount how colorful text improves the coolness of coding for students. Even if they change the colors to look like a garish MySpace page.
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 7:10 AM, Carrie Anne Philbin < carrieanne@raspberrypi.org> wrote:
Lots of great discussion but I'm losing track of our list, so I've moved it to a google doc. Please suggest amendments so that we can get a final list together to vote on before we turn to finding volunteers to help build it. Then we will take it to a testing phase to get feedback from real learners!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rXM2-Up59PbOEXqZHbo_jj-zPFkhc---kVVMinPp...
Thanks,
Carrie Anne.
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Dave Ames david.john.ames@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:50 Nicholas H.Tollervey ntoll@ntoll.org wrote:
On 22/09/15 17:46, Dave Ames wrote:
I would suspect that (rightly or wrongly) most school network technicians would be extremely wary of giving students access to a system shell of any kind.
Then most school network technicians are fools and should not have ANY input in such decisions.
NOTE: I'm highly biased about this. ;-)
N.
Pythonedu-wg mailing list Pythonedu-wg@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonedu-wg
Absolutely no disagreement from me there. If they've configured everything correctly then access to the command line for students, should present absolutely no threat to the network. But!
The default state is "no command line", even though access to Python/Idle probably gives them at least the same level (if not more) of danger.
Dave
-- Education Pioneer Raspberry Pi Foundation
UK Charity No. 1129409
Pythonedu-wg mailing list Pythonedu-wg@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonedu-wg
On 9/23/15 4:24 PM, Al Sweigart wrote:
I'd move a REPL from the "nice to have" to the "mandatory" list. The interactive shell is really nice when the student just has to learn what a new function or method does.
+1 REPL as mandatory. It's really helpful for interactive programming in a classroom setting. I use it all the time with folks just starting out.
The most common confusions students have told me about with IDLE are:
- Mixing up the interactive shell and file editor windows.
- Mixing up Python 2 and 3 (either the wrong code or running the wrong IDLE)
+1 for Python 3 only
Agreed. Less issues to explain when Python 3 only.
+1 for using PyPI as a Python appstore. I think this idea has promise. One of Scratch's great features is that students can upload and show off their programs.
Just a heads up (though I suspect you are aware)... PyPI will likely be replaced by the project currently named "Warehouse" which will be much more visually appealing.
Scratch :D
+1 for syntax highlighting. Don't discount how colorful text improves the coolness of coding for students. Even if they change the colors to look like a garish MySpace page.
Carol
-- *Carol Willing* Developer | Willing Consulting https://willingconsulting.com
+1 REPL as mandatory +1 Python 3 only +1 for syntax highlighting +1 always have REPL and a Script window open together and joined (windowed apps such as turtle tkinter should always appear on top of this when run.)
I know where the wish to avoid auto-complete comes from and I am in agreement BUT I am concerned that this might then lead to providing no help for dyslexics and poor spellers. I would like to see underlining of misspelt words as in MS Word that when clicked on show suggestions much as suggested by Alex so:
+1 for DidYouMean-Python type spell-checking (and I would move it to mandatory)
Is it possible to lose the mandatory / highly desirable distinction from the google doc as this distinction is making it hard to edit it? When voting later we could then choose whether we think it should be mandatory, highly desirable or avoided. (Keep the avoided section so people can easily indicate that their suggestion is that something should be avoided.)
Chris
On 24 Sep 2015, at 01:08, Carol Willing willingc@willingconsulting.com wrote:
On 9/23/15 4:24 PM, Al Sweigart wrote:
I'd move a REPL from the "nice to have" to the "mandatory" list. The interactive shell is really nice when the student just has to learn what a new function or method does.
+1 REPL as mandatory. It's really helpful for interactive programming in a classroom setting. I use it all the time with folks just starting out.
The most common confusions students have told me about with IDLE are:
- Mixing up the interactive shell and file editor windows.
- Mixing up Python 2 and 3 (either the wrong code or running the wrong IDLE)
+1 for Python 3 only
Agreed. Less issues to explain when Python 3 only.
+1 for using PyPI as a Python appstore. I think this idea has promise. One of Scratch's great features is that students can upload and show off their programs.
Just a heads up (though I suspect you are aware)... PyPI will likely be replaced by the project currently named "Warehouse" which will be much more visually appealing.
Scratch :D
+1 for syntax highlighting. Don't discount how colorful text improves the coolness of coding for students. Even if they change the colors to look like a garish MySpace page.
Carol
-- Carol Willing Developer | Willing Consulting https://willingconsulting.com https://willingconsulting.com/
Pythonedu-wg mailing list Pythonedu-wg@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonedu-wg
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 4:36 AM, Chris Roffey chris@codingclub.co.uk wrote:
+1 REPL as mandatory +1 Python 3 only +1 for syntax highlighting +1 always have REPL and a Script window open together and joined (windowed apps such as turtle tkinter should always appear on top of this when run.)
I know where the wish to avoid auto-complete comes from and I am in agreement BUT I am concerned that this might then lead to providing no help for dyslexics and poor spellers. I would like to see underlining of misspelt words as in MS Word that when clicked on show suggestions much as suggested by Alex so:
+1 for DidYouMean-Python type spell-checking (and I would move it to mandatory)
Is it possible to lose the mandatory / highly desirable distinction from the google doc as this distinction is making it hard to edit it? When voting later we could then choose whether we think it should be mandatory, highly desirable or avoided. (Keep the avoided section so people can easily indicate that their suggestion is that something should be avoided.)
Chris
On 24 Sep 2015, at 01:08, Carol Willing willingc@willingconsulting.com wrote:
On 9/23/15 4:24 PM, Al Sweigart wrote:
I'd move a REPL from the "nice to have" to the "mandatory" list. The interactive shell is really nice when the student just has to learn what a new function or method does.
+1 REPL as mandatory. It's really helpful for interactive programming in a classroom setting. I use it all the time with folks just starting out.
The most common confusions students have told me about with IDLE are:
- Mixing up the interactive shell and file editor windows.
- Mixing up Python 2 and 3 (either the wrong code or running the wrong IDLE)
+1 for Python 3 only
+1 for Python 3 only, and not only for "technical" reasons. We in the EDU space, since we tend less than others to be tied to legacy modules, etc., should be leading the charge to switch to Python 3 and support the future of our language!
Agreed. Less issues to explain when Python 3 only.
+1 for using PyPI as a Python appstore. I think this idea has promise. One of Scratch's great features is that students can upload and show off their programs.
Just a heads up (though I suspect you are aware)... PyPI will likely be replaced by the project currently named "Warehouse" which will be much more visually appealing.
Scratch :D
+1 for syntax highlighting. Don't discount how colorful text improves the coolness of coding for students. Even if they change the colors to look like a garish MySpace page.
Carol
-- Carol Willing Developer | Willing Consulting https://willingconsulting.com
Pythonedu-wg mailing list Pythonedu-wg@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonedu-wg
Pythonedu-wg mailing list Pythonedu-wg@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonedu-wg
This is a great discussion - I'm very excited about this project!
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:24 PM, Al Sweigart al@inventwithpython.com wrote:
I'd move a REPL from the "nice to have" to the "mandatory" list. The interactive shell is really nice when the student just has to learn what a new function or method does.
Agree 100%. This is where I always start my students doing "Hello World" and turtle graphics. They get instant results without any need for the save/run/edit routine.
The most common confusions students have told me about with IDLE are:
- Mixing up the interactive shell and file editor windows.
Multiple windows (and the "Python Shell" window always popping up on top) is a constant source of confusion. Also, when they move on to using the editor and running programs (don't get me started on "Run Module"), the shell window is not used for typing anymore, but shows output and error messages. This is so unwieldy and takes up far too much class time to get a handle on.
+1 for syntax highlighting. Don't discount how colorful text improves the coolness of coding for students. Even if they change the colors to look like a garish MySpace page.
Definitely +1. It also helps with a very common early problem: closing quotes. Colored strings are a great bit of feedback that you quoted everything correctly.
Also, a visual indicator of unclosed parentheses would be huge - I see many students have a problem with this, especially when they start nesting them. Currently, if you forget to close parens, IDLE highlights the *next* statement and calls it a syntax error. Kids wind up staring at that red highlight unable to see what's wrong.
Regards, Chris
Chris Bradfield Founder, KidsCanCode http://kidscancode.org/ 818-794-0522
participants (6)
-
Al Sweigart -
Carol Willing -
Carrie Anne Philbin -
Chris Bradfield -
Chris Roffey -
Jeff Elkner