Re: [Pythonedu-wg] How can you help Python in education today?
Just jumping in quickly - haven't looked thoroughly as I'm abroad but I agree that 12 year olds I've taught wouldn't look in documentation by themselves. Maybe one or two super motivated ones but general classes, definitely not. (Context: 2 independent schools). As CA says, probably even more to deal with in state schools.
I wonder if some kind of icon/visual indicator would help students understand the difference between arguments and return values? It is an often completely misunderstood concept (or rather understood in the specific example generated in class and then students are unable to generalise, so haven't understood it at all!)
Laura
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On 19 Jul 2016, at 09:36, pythonedu-wg-request@python.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:
- Re: How can you help Python in education today? (Carrie Anne Philbin)
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 08:10:22 +0100 From: Carrie Anne Philbin carrieanne@raspberrypi.org To: Chris Roffey chris@codingclub.co.uk Cc: pythonedu-wg@python.org Subject: Re: [Pythonedu-wg] How can you help Python in education today? Message-ID: CAHHa-5gMUGfiGQkVg=PsbPDPC2Sj1xZqWG1V7fXVwAUgFpwJ1g@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Replies in line below:
On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Chris Roffey chris@codingclub.co.uk wrote:
Hi Carrie Anne
I was focussing on structure mostly but I was also trying to come up with language that was concise but easy to understand (while being in a rush). I agree this can be improved and will suggest one improvement later but first I will try and explain why it might not be as bad as perhaps it first appears:
- Audience: I am not aiming at the slow-typing, just-started-Python,
what-is-a-function student. I am aiming at those students who have done a little programming in Python already and are starting to want to explore things further. Your average 12 year old perhaps would be the first ones to start exploring the documentation. These are the interim students / learners. The reason for aiming here is that I think that the younger students need a bit more leading than going off and reading documentation. For the youngsters it is possible to produce a stripped down even easier version of EdDoc that can pop-up in a special IDE, rather than navigating documentation or simply providing Syntax guides. Personally, I believe both kinds of documentation are required but, for me, it is easier to simplify than build up from a simplified start.
Your experience of teaching 12 year olds is very different to my experience of teaching 12 year olds. Mine would not start to explore the documentation and even if they did I think they would be completely lost by the language. Many of my best computing students had learning difficulties and reading ages of much younger children. Many just did not like to read, and many did not have a wide vocabulary. State schools are a very different beast to grammar and independent schools in my experience.
In my opinion, keep it simple should be the mantra, otherwise students may as well refer to the documentation that already exists. We should be demystifying computing jargon!
- Structure: Some of the ease of reading comes from repetitive structure.
All functions (in my example system) start with a sentence saying that they are functions and where they come from: So in the example you have chosen, random.choice(), the first sentence is: *A function available after importing the built-in random module*. bin() on the other hand has as its first sentence: *A built-in function*. A Pygame method might have a sentence such as: *A method available if Pygame is installed on your computer*. The second sentence in the description tells you its purpose concisely but is separate (hence on a new line).
I love the structure.
- Technical vocab: Students who are starting to read documentation also
need to be introduced to technical vocabulary so they can perform effective searches. The amount of this vocab varies and often depends on the difficulty of the function being documented. It is of course possible to use technical language and then further explain it, but the danger is it becomes verbose and many students will not read it.
I agree that introducing technical language is important, however be careful not to assume that more words = less likely to read it. If the words are alien and seem to make no sense in a shorter sentence then the danger is that they will not read them.
- How the function page in my suggestion might be read: I envisage many
students reading the documentation like this:
- 'What do I have to put in to this function?' (skip to arguments
section)
- 'What will I get out of it?' (skip to returns section)
- Then they will either experiment in the shell or think 'I don?t get
it? (skip to the examples)
- 'OK, this is useful - how do I get it?' (skip to top)
Hence the repetitive structure, again, aids readability. It is also teachable.
Agree. I like the structure and the use case here.
In the example chosen, the second sentence could have been better worded: *Returns a random value from a container data-type. *would be better as *Returns a random value from a string, a tuple or a list.* This is better because it is still concise, avoids ?container' which is not a universally accepted key word and is specific about which containers it applies to. It would then be possible to delete the note at the bottom. (original page for reference: EdDoc/built-in_modules/random.choice.html http://codingclub.co.uk/EdDoc/built-in_modules/random.choice.html )
Is there a need for both EdDocs and, for want of a better name, SchoolDocs? Am I right to suggest that SchoolDocs would be easy to produce from a well made EdDocs system but doing this the other way round is more difficult?
No idea. I think an EdDocs, with content sourced by members of this working group and the wider community would be a good starting point.
Best wishes Chris
As always, great to discuss our viewpoints,
Carrie Anne.
On 18 Jul 2016, at 10:12, Carrie Anne Philbin carrieanne@raspberrypi.org wrote:
I really like this idea Chris. Like you I am not sure if this could be easily incorporated into an IDE but it is something we should consider for the python in edu website.
My only reservation is with the language used in the example supplied here http://codingclub.co.uk/EdDoc/. I think it is still too high level for young people. Hell, I don't even understand "A function available after importing the built-in random module. Returns a random value from a container data-type." Can we simplify the language for novices? I'm not sure if this was simply because you wanted to share an idea of structure rather than content? If so apologises Chris.
Any further thoughts anyone?
Carrie Anne.
On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Chris Roffey chris@codingclub.co.uk wrote:
Dear Carrie Anne and Amit
I too have been concerned about the Python documentation being too difficult for students to understand.
To be easy to teach, navigate and to link to in IDEs, the documentation requires a clear and logical structure.
To be easily understandable and accessible to youngsters, the language in the documentation needs to be concise and clear and with a consistent style. This means, in my mind, that although it can be a community endeavour, it needs an agreed structure first and a good copy-editor at the end.
To see what this would involve I have had a go and discovered it will be a big job. Well worth sharing! I have experimented with a straight html structure but I have no idea if this is the best way of doing this to make it easy to incorporate in IDEs. I suspect XML would be better.
I have produced a nested index system with plain english descriptions provided all the way through but ending in a single page with a logical name that could be used in IDEs. So, for example, the random.choice() function has its own page with the same headings as other functions and is accessed by navigating through built-in modules then random (which has its own description) then then clicking on the choice() link which has its own description.
I have not explored classes and their corresponding methods provided by modules built this way because I think it is pretty easy to see how these can follow the same system.
Anyway, have a look and see what you think: http://codingclub.co.uk/EdDoc/ (I have used an obvious link style so you can clearly see where I have provided examples. This is not a comprehensive Documentation set!!)
Best wishes Chris
On 13 Jul 2016, at 07:32, Carrie Anne Philbin carrieanne@raspberrypi.org wrote:
This is a great blog by a teacher in Bath who I believe is on this mailing list. I'm sure she can give you a list, but to start with here is the post https://codeboom.wordpress.com/2016/05/11/scratch-is-the-new-powerpoint/ I was referring to.
I hope some teachers will read this and add their requests for good documentation so your offer of help gets snapped up! As Nicholas mentioned, a Python in education website is being formulated. We will need good documentation for it. More details to come!
Thanks,
Carrie Anne.
On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 5:12 AM, Amit Saha amitsaha.in@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 3:52 AM, Carrie Anne Philbin carrieanne@raspberrypi.org wrote:
I've been distracted lately by all of the work that the micro-python
group
have been doing to support the BBC micro:bit. Work that continues and
needs
your support.
- Work is continuing on Mu the learner focused Python IDE. The team
would
really appreciate your thoughts and feedback, especially if you work
with
young people or those new to Python. You can do so here, on another
thread
or on the Microbit-Python mailing list.
- Support for teachers/learners. If you need support learning python
or
teaching with python then why not start a thread here? A wonderful
Python
community person will help you out. This is a really quick and simply
way
that members can get involved. They want to help you!
- Lesson plans, tutorials/resources. Have you written any that you
want to
share with others? Then share them here with a new thread. Spread the
love!
- Documentation. Recently CodeBoom wrote a really good blog post
about the
lack of good documentation for python modules that are used in
education.
Could educators on this list, collate their most used modules that need documenting for those wanting to get started with them. Could others
help
with this?
I would be keen to help with the documentation. Can you please point to the post you are referring to?
- Education bundle. Dan Pope started a thread sharing his progress on
this.
Can you provide feedback, ideas, suggestions, a pat on the back,
testing
opportunities in the future?
I am looking forward to help with the edu bundle too.
The moral here is do not let this WG die! Everyone always asks me "how
can I
get involved?" Educators share your success, failures and frustrations. Community members share your ideas, solutions and good-will.
Thanks,
Carrie Anne.
-- Director of Education Raspberry Pi Foundation UK Charity No. 1129409
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-- Director of Education Raspberry Pi Foundation UK Charity No. 1129409
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-- Director of Education Raspberry Pi Foundation UK Charity No. 1129409
www.raspberrypi.org | www.codeclub.org.uk @ http://twitter.com/missphilbin | in https://uk.linkedin.com/in/carrie-anne-philbin-a20649b7 | *?* https://www.youtube.com/user/GeekGurlDiaries
participants (1)
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Laura Dixon