Things have been quiet since we posted the ASP RFC, at least on the concerns it raised. It really is a request for your comments, and not just a private plan of Perry's and mine. Success in this area will require everyone's participation, even if it's just evaluating what others have done or said and expressing your opinions on this list. All we're asking for at this point is for you to read the RFC, make some comments in email, and help populate some wiki pages with links and concerns. If you're willing to do real work later, we're also asking for you to sign up in the area you can work in. So far only one discipline (astronomy) has posted a page of links on the "Topical Software" wiki. Subsequent to posting his page, Russell Owen offered a critique of the web site, which we identified in the ASP RFC as needing a makeover. He's not on this list but hee allowed me to post his comments here. Please chime in and respond with your own ideas of how to make the web site better, both to serve your needs and to serve those of potential new users. Finally, would someone from biology and from graphics please step up to maintain similar pages for those areas? We need someone from *every* field, but I know there's lots of good application software in both those areas. Maintaining a wiki or a regular page takes only a small amount of time, an hour a month or less once the page is up, but it's a crucial step in attracting a broader user base. Thanks! --jh-- ------- Start of forwarded message ------- In-Reply-To: <006301c4bba0$8c284f70$9c01a8c0@SWISHER> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:48:16 -0700 To: "Janet Swisher" <swisher@enthought.com>, "'Russell E Owen'" <rowen@u.washington.edu> From: Russell E Owen <rowen@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Help with SciPy.org Wikis Cc: <joneric@enthought.com>, <jh@oobleck.astro.cornell.edu> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on oobleck.astro.cornell.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=3.9 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 At 4:12 PM -0500 2004-10-26, Janet Swisher wrote:
On the edit tab for a wiki page, a set of options near the bottom determines which format the wiki uses to interpret the page. If you edit an existing page, notice which format it is in. "
So..."notice which format it is in". Sounds good, but HOW?
What I had in mind is that, when you edit a page, you can note which of the format radio buttons is selected. I guess I need to make that more explicit.
Better yet, how to change it?
You can change the selected radio button, but that does not change the contents of the page. If you want to change a page, for example, from ST to RST, you would have to make the formatting changes manually. ... When you click the Edit tab, the contents of the page are full of HTML tags, and the HTML radio button is selected.
OK, I tried with Safari as well and I see no radio buttons, so I think they really and truly are missing (or I am being spectacularly blind). I suspect one needs more god-like privileges than I have to see them, perhaps because if a user can see them, a user can toggle them. (If so, not allowing just anybody to change how a page is parsed is certainly reasonable). In any case, this is a problem because every editor should be able to clearly see what format a page is in.
Request: - Permanent links to "Topical Software" and "Help with SciPy.org Wikis" would be a big win. Right now they are only visible because they are new enough to appear in "recent items".
"Topical Software" is permanently listed in the navigation tree under "Wikis". The user does have to know to click "Wikis" to see it. "Help with SciPy.org Wikis" is now linked from the root page of the Wikis folder and from the root page of the published wikis (except the one for the SciPy 2004 Conference, which is now mainly historical).
Do you have suggestions about where else these items could be linked that would be more visible?
Since you ask, here are my impressions and suggestions. First the impressions: - - From the SciPy home page, there is no clue that this site has any general "science with Python" information. It just seems to be a site about the SciPy software project. - - One has to first go to "Other Wikis" and then look way down through a page that is mostly about SciPy to find "Topical Software". - - "Topical Software" is not evocative. - - Burying it so deeply and not mentioning it on the home page give the impression that it is very much an afterthoght and not integrated into the site. Suggestions: - - Rename "Topcial Software" to something like "Python Tools for Science". - - Explicitly mention "Python Tools for Science" in the text on the home page. Try to briefly explain that it exists and perhaps WHY it exists. Just a sentence or two should do it. *Talking* about it and not just Further cleanups to consider: - - Consolidate some of the items in Navigation. - - Get rid of "Wikis" and those pages to other, more obvious, sub-headings. - - SciPy should be a recognized link on every scipy wiki (to the SciPy home page). The navigation bar might look like this (with changes noted under each topic): Navigation: About SciPy - - no change (except as mentioned for the body text above) Documentation: - - includes "Wikis" links: "Troubleshooting", "SciPy User's Guide Wiki" and "Help with SciPy.org Wikis" this is touchy and may not fully work because I realize you have non-wiki versions of the docs as well, but I have seen success with offering users both versions side-by-side (let them choose if they want docs cluttered up with user comments or not) Development: - - include CVS and get rid of the CVS link (i.e. bury the CVS page one level deeper) Bug Tracker: - - include the standard navigation panel that we are discussing Mailing Lists - - no change Science with Python - - This is the "Topical Software" page, renamed and brought up one level Anyway, there are my 2 bits, such as they are. Best of luck with the site and the project. - -- Russell P.S. Regarding the gaps I was seeing before every link; it turned out that enabling background images displayed the icons. If those really are background images I am truly amazed, but however it's being done seems to work (except for leaving gaps when one doesn't want to see images). ------- End of forwarded message -------
"Joe" == Joe Harrington <jh@oobleck.astro.cornell.edu> writes:
Joe> Finally, would someone from biology and from graphics please Joe> step up to maintain similar pages for those areas? We need Joe> someone from *every* field, but I know there's lots of good Joe> application software in both those areas. Maintaining a wiki Joe> or a regular page takes only a small amount of time, an hour Joe> a month or less once the page is up, but it's a crucial step Joe> in attracting a broader user base. Hmm biology and graphics background, that sounds familiar to me.... I'll do the graphics.... I'll try to be fair, I promise :-). There is already a page summarizing python for 3D - I think we can just link to them for now (but they do leave out VTK...) http://www.py3d.org/links JDH
"JH" == Joe Harrington <jh@oobleck.astro.cornell.edu> writes:
JH> Things have been quiet since we posted the ASP RFC, at least JH> on the concerns it raised. It really is a request for your JH> comments, and not just a private plan of Perry's and mine. JH> Success in this area will require everyone's participation, JH> even if it's just evaluating what others have done or said and JH> expressing your opinions on this list. All we're asking for JH> at this point is for you to read the RFC, make some comments JH> in email, and help populate some wiki pages with links and JH> concerns. If you're willing to do real work later, we're also JH> asking for you to sign up in the area you can work in. General comments: The ideas sounded very good and quite comprehensive and I really did not have much to say. The only problem was how do we get people involved. Unfortunately, I have no good solutions for that. All the people I know already spend quite a bit of their spare time writing the various pieces of software. As regards links to useful software, I sent in a bunch of links to Fernando after the conference. I'm not sure what happened. Why not have a catch all links page with all the links locally sorted into simple categories. Its easier to do it that way rather than manage the links from different places. What do you think? cheers, prabhu
Prabhu Ramachandran wrote:
As regards links to useful software, I sent in a bunch of links to Fernando after the conference. I'm not sure what happened.
Coming... I am putting the page together with summaries of projects, but I've been away for 2 weeks at conferences, with nearly zero time to work on this (and a stupid hotel room without internet access, so I can't work on it in the evenings). I'll be back home next week, and I'll get this out of the way. Sorry for the delay. f
I've figured out how to disable automatic linking of names in CamelCaps (such as SciPy and AstroPy). This was creating extraneous "?"s after such names, which Russell and others found annoying. The wikis still support the following forms of linking: * Free-form page names in single brackets [foo] or double brackets [[foo]] * Bare URLs * HTML links, on HTML or Structured Text pages * Structured Text links ("link text":URL) on ST pages * ReStructured Text links on RST pages (see http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/user/rst/quickref.html#hyperlink-target s for details) --Janet
-----Original Message----- From: scipy-dev-bounces@scipy.net [mailto:scipy-dev-bounces@scipy.net] On Behalf Of Joe Harrington Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:12 AM To: scipy-dev@scipy.org Cc: jh@oobleck.astro.cornell.edu Subject: [SciPy-dev] ASP: comments on the web site
Things have been quiet since we posted the ASP RFC, at least on the concerns it raised. It really is a request for your comments, and not just a private plan of Perry's and mine. Success in this area will require everyone's participation, even if it's just evaluating what others have done or said and expressing your opinions on this list. All we're asking for at this point is for you to read the RFC, make some comments in email, and help populate some wiki pages with links and concerns. If you're willing to do real work later, we're also asking for you to sign up in the area you can work in.
So far only one discipline (astronomy) has posted a page of links on the "Topical Software" wiki. Subsequent to posting his page, Russell Owen offered a critique of the web site, which we identified in the ASP RFC as needing a makeover. He's not on this list but hee allowed me to post his comments here. Please chime in and respond with your own ideas of how to make the web site better, both to serve your needs and to serve those of potential new users.
Finally, would someone from biology and from graphics please step up to maintain similar pages for those areas? We need someone from *every* field, but I know there's lots of good application software in both those areas. Maintaining a wiki or a regular page takes only a small amount of time, an hour a month or less once the page is up, but it's a crucial step in attracting a broader user base.
Thanks!
--jh--
------- Start of forwarded message ------- In-Reply-To: <006301c4bba0$8c284f70$9c01a8c0@SWISHER> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:48:16 -0700 To: "Janet Swisher" <swisher@enthought.com>, "'Russell E Owen'" <rowen@u.washington.edu> From: Russell E Owen <rowen@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Help with SciPy.org Wikis Cc: <joneric@enthought.com>, <jh@oobleck.astro.cornell.edu> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on oobleck.astro.cornell.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=3.9 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63
On the edit tab for a wiki page, a set of options near
determines which format the wiki uses to interpret the
edit an existing page, notice which format it is in. "
So..."notice which format it is in". Sounds good, but HOW?
What I had in mind is that, when you edit a page, you can note which of the format radio buttons is selected. I guess I need to make
At 4:12 PM -0500 2004-10-26, Janet Swisher wrote: the bottom page. If you that more
explicit.
Better yet, how to change it?
You can change the selected radio button, but that does not change the contents of the page. If you want to change a page, for example, from ST to RST, you would have to make the formatting changes manually. ... When you click the Edit tab, the contents of the page are full of HTML tags, and the HTML radio button is selected.
OK, I tried with Safari as well and I see no radio buttons, so I think they really and truly are missing (or I am being spectacularly blind).
I suspect one needs more god-like privileges than I have to see them, perhaps because if a user can see them, a user can toggle them. (If so, not allowing just anybody to change how a page is parsed is certainly reasonable).
In any case, this is a problem because every editor should be able to clearly see what format a page is in.
Request: - Permanent links to "Topical Software" and "Help with SciPy.org Wikis" would be a big win. Right now they are only visible because they are new enough to appear in "recent items".
"Topical Software" is permanently listed in the navigation tree under "Wikis". The user does have to know to click "Wikis" to see it. "Help with SciPy.org Wikis" is now linked from the root page of the Wikis folder and from the root page of the published wikis (except the one for the SciPy 2004 Conference, which is now mainly historical).
Do you have suggestions about where else these items could be linked that would be more visible?
Since you ask, here are my impressions and suggestions.
First the impressions: - - From the SciPy home page, there is no clue that this site has any general "science with Python" information. It just seems to be a site about the SciPy software project. - - One has to first go to "Other Wikis" and then look way down through a page that is mostly about SciPy to find "Topical Software". - - "Topical Software" is not evocative. - - Burying it so deeply and not mentioning it on the home page give the impression that it is very much an afterthoght and not integrated into the site.
Suggestions: - - Rename "Topcial Software" to something like "Python Tools for Science". - - Explicitly mention "Python Tools for Science" in the text on the home page. Try to briefly explain that it exists and perhaps WHY it exists. Just a sentence or two should do it. *Talking* about it and not just
Further cleanups to consider: - - Consolidate some of the items in Navigation. - - Get rid of "Wikis" and those pages to other, more obvious, sub-headings. - - SciPy should be a recognized link on every scipy wiki (to the SciPy home page).
The navigation bar might look like this (with changes noted under each topic):
Navigation: About SciPy - - no change (except as mentioned for the body text above) Documentation: - - includes "Wikis" links: "Troubleshooting", "SciPy User's Guide Wiki" and "Help with SciPy.org Wikis" this is touchy and may not fully work because I realize you have non-wiki versions of the docs as well, but I have seen success with offering users both versions side-by-side (let them choose if they want docs cluttered up with user comments or not) Development: - - include CVS and get rid of the CVS link (i.e. bury the CVS page one level deeper) Bug Tracker: - - include the standard navigation panel that we are discussing Mailing Lists - - no change Science with Python - - This is the "Topical Software" page, renamed and brought up one level
Anyway, there are my 2 bits, such as they are. Best of luck with the site and the project.
- -- Russell
P.S. Regarding the gaps I was seeing before every link; it turned out that enabling background images displayed the icons. If those really are background images I am truly amazed, but however it's being done seems to work (except for leaving gaps when one doesn't want to see images). ------- End of forwarded message -------
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participants (5)
-
Fernando Perez -
Janet Swisher -
Joe Harrington -
John Hunter -
Prabhu Ramachandran