Hi everyone,
As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired.
This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email.
Amber "Hawkie" Brown GPG: https://keybase.io/hawkowl
On Jun 7, 2015, at 10:57 PM, Amber Hawkie Brown <hawkowl@atleastfornow.net mailto:hawkowl@atleastfornow.net> wrote:
Hi everyone,
As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2015-March/029258.html http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired.
This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email.
Amber "Hawkie" Brown GPG: https://keybase.io/hawkowl https://keybase.io/hawkowl
I don't think that we covered terrible well why we are dropping support. So I'm going to give my take on this, and if
We want Twisted to be available in all kinds of environments. Since it's Twisted's job to let your program talk to the outside world, it's pretty important for you to be able to upgrade it wherever. Heck, we still support Windows XP! Plus, while occasionally annoying, Python 2.6 doesn't impose a significant maintenance burden. So superficially it would seem that we would totally support Python 2.6.
However, Python 2.6 is unsupported by the upstream Python maintainers, and given the increasingly hostile threat landscape, inconveniencing ourselves even a little bit to provide the false impression that Python 2.6 is a "supported" environment where doing new development is OK is not worthwhile.
"But glyph", I hear my hypothetical interlocutor say, "didn't you just say Windows XP isn't supported? surely that's more of a security risk than python 2.6!"
It's true that Windows XP is a worse security risk, but the difference between XP and 2.6 is that we support Windows XP may bean immutable fact of access to some hardware. According to <http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey>, roughly 3% of gamers still use Windows XP, and there's no way for someone writing a Steam game to deliver an OS upgrade along with it, because they don't have access to that environment. The best we can do there is hope that those people eventually buy new computers.
However, if you're delivering software into a Python 2.6 environment, unless it's an embedded environment without support for 2.7, it is at least to some degree under the "your" control (by "your" I mean the software author, which may be an organization where a particular individual who wants to use Twisted doesn't have a say). The only such environment I am aware of is Sublime Text 2, which unfortunately did not upgrade to Python 2.7, but Sublime Text 3, which supports Python 3.3, has been out for over 2 years now.
That said, discontinuing Python 2.6 support in this way - simply removing the buildbots and letting people using it on 2.6 eventually start getting syntax errors when they try to import some random module doesn't help to communicate this intent very well.
To that end, I'd like to propose that we follow suit with the Cryptography project, and emit a DeprecationWarning in 15.3. When you 'pip install cryptography' into a 2.6 environment today, it says:
.../site-packages/cryptography/__init__.py:25: DeprecationWarning: Python 2.6 is no longer supported by the Python core team, please upgrade your Python.
We could say something similar, adding something like "16.0 will not support python 2.6 and may not work at all in your application".
I don't think it would be worthwhile to do this in every possible unsupported / de-supported environment, but this affects a particularly large audience, many of whom may be ignorant of the issues at stake. <https://caremad.io/2015/04/a-year-of-pypi-downloads/ https://caremad.io/2015/04/a-year-of-pypi-downloads/> indicates that roughly 10% of Python users are still stuck on some version of Python 2.6; hopefully Cryptography will be exerting some subtle pressure to get those numbers down.
-glyph
On Jun 8, 2015, at 1:32 AM, Glyph glyph@twistedmatrix.com wrote:
I don't think that we covered terrible well why we are dropping support. So I'm going to give my take on this, and if
Hm... It's like my mail client decided to do an "Undo" right before sending.
This should say:
"I don't think we covered terribly well why we are dropping support. So I'm going to give my take on this, and if Hawkie's differs, hopefully she can expand on that."
On 05:57 am, hawkowl@atleastfornow.net wrote:
Hi everyone,
As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted- python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired.
This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email.
I think this is backwards. There was basically no strong argument made against dropping Python 2.6 support but there was no case made for dropping OS X support. I don't think you can remove the only OS X builder from the supported list. That's equivalent to saying OS X support is being dropped.
So either the existing OS X slaves need to be upgraded first (I don't see why you wouldn't just do this) or Python 2.6 support (at least on OS X) needs to be retained until someone else volunteers a Python 2.7 OS X slave.
Jean-Paul
On 8 Jun 2015, at 17:27, exarkun@twistedmatrix.com wrote:
On 05:57 am, hawkowl@atleastfornow.net wrote:
Hi everyone,
As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted- python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired.
This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email.
I think this is backwards. There was basically no strong argument made against dropping Python 2.6 support but there was no case made for dropping OS X support. I don't think you can remove the only OS X builder from the supported list. That's equivalent to saying OS X support is being dropped.
So either the existing OS X slaves need to be upgraded first (I don't see why you wouldn't just do this) or Python 2.6 support (at least on OS X) needs to be retained until someone else volunteers a Python 2.7 OS X slave.
Jean-Paul
Twisted-web mailing list Twisted-web@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-web
Hi JP,
I know that this would leave OS X uncovered -- lukasa, habnabit, and Adi have at separate points offered OS X builders of varying OS levels and even Python versions, both on the mailing list and in #twisted-dev (where Lukasa answered the call from this email and offered a Yosemite builder today), which is why I am confident that this will not end up being an issue when 15.3's first prerelease is issued.
I think the prevailing reason that we don't have an OS X 2.7 bot is that last time OS X hardware was offered, the buildbot was not being actively maintained. I've taken up the mantle in some capacity and getting Twisted supported on more platforms is my primary goal. And as an OS X user, I have some vested interest in it continuing being supported.
- Amber
On 09:42 am, hawkowl@atleastfornow.net wrote:
On 8 Jun 2015, at 17:27, exarkun@twistedmatrix.com wrote:
On 05:57 am, hawkowl@atleastfornow.net wrote:
Hi everyone,
As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted- python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired.
This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email.
I think this is backwards. There was basically no strong argument made against dropping Python 2.6 support but there was no case made for dropping OS X support. I don't think you can remove the only OS X builder from the supported list. That's equivalent to saying OS X support is being dropped.
So either the existing OS X slaves need to be upgraded first (I don't see why you wouldn't just do this) or Python 2.6 support (at least on OS X) needs to be retained until someone else volunteers a Python 2.7 OS X slave.
Jean-Paul
Twisted-web mailing list Twisted-web@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-web
Hi JP,
I know that this would leave OS X uncovered -- lukasa, habnabit, and Adi have at separate points offered OS X builders of varying OS levels and even Python versions, both on the mailing list and in #twisted-dev (where Lukasa answered the call from this email and offered a Yosemite builder today), which is why I am confident that this will not end up being an issue when 15.3's first prerelease is issued.
I'd be even more confident if you don't disable the Python 2.6 OS X builder until a new Python 2.7 OS X builder is set up. If this turns out to be easy, then nothing has been lost. If it ends up being hard, then it's much better than having a screwed up 15.3.
I think the prevailing reason that we don't have an OS X 2.7 bot is that last time OS X hardware was offered, the buildbot was not being actively maintained. I've taken up the mantle in some capacity and getting Twisted supported on more platforms is my primary goal. And as an OS X user, I have some vested interest in it continuing being supported.
Once again, I'm not really clear on why the existing build slaves aren't just being upgraded. Why is new hardware required?
Jean-Paul
On 8 Jun 2015, at 17:57, exarkun@twistedmatrix.com wrote:
On 09:42 am, hawkowl@atleastfornow.net wrote:
On 8 Jun 2015, at 17:27, exarkun@twistedmatrix.com wrote:
On 05:57 am, hawkowl@atleastfornow.net wrote:
Hi everyone,
As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted- python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired.
This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email.
I think this is backwards. There was basically no strong argument made against dropping Python 2.6 support but there was no case made for dropping OS X support. I don't think you can remove the only OS X builder from the supported list. That's equivalent to saying OS X support is being dropped.
So either the existing OS X slaves need to be upgraded first (I don't see why you wouldn't just do this) or Python 2.6 support (at least on OS X) needs to be retained until someone else volunteers a Python 2.7 OS X slave.
Jean-Paul
Twisted-web mailing list Twisted-web@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-web
Hi JP,
I know that this would leave OS X uncovered -- lukasa, habnabit, and Adi have at separate points offered OS X builders of varying OS levels and even Python versions, both on the mailing list and in #twisted-dev (where Lukasa answered the call from this email and offered a Yosemite builder today), which is why I am confident that this will not end up being an issue when 15.3's first prerelease is issued.
I'd be even more confident if you don't disable the Python 2.6 OS X builder until a new Python 2.7 OS X builder is set up. If this turns out to be easy, then nothing has been lost. If it ends up being hard, then it's much better than having a screwed up 15.3.
15.3 is the last release *with* Python 2.6 support -- that is, the 2.6 builders will be on the supported list until at least 15.3 is released. The goal is that we have both 2.6 and 2.7 on OS X tested before 15.3's release.
I think the prevailing reason that we don't have an OS X 2.7 bot is that last time OS X hardware was offered, the buildbot was not being actively maintained. I've taken up the mantle in some capacity and getting Twisted supported on more platforms is my primary goal. And as an OS X user, I have some vested interest in it continuing being supported.
Once again, I'm not really clear on why the existing build slaves aren't just being upgraded. Why is new hardware required?
I would much prefer to have a new builder to take up the role, migrate the buildslave roles, and then upgrade the existing 10.6 slave once we have something new working. That way, if something goes wrong during the upgrade, we maintain a supported OS X builder.
-----
I think I've been failing at communication a bit -- a prerequisite of dropping 2.6 support has always hinged on getting 2.7 (and optionally 3.3/3.4) builders for platforms that only had 2.6. I have a RHEL7 builder in the wings to get that platform supported, Debian has 7 & 8 now supported, and there's OS X, which I am confident I can get 2.7 builders set up for before 15.3.
- Amber
Jean-Paul
Twisted-web mailing list Twisted-web@twistedmatrix.com http://twistedmatrix.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/twisted-web
On Jun 8, 2015, at 2:42 AM, Amber Hawkie Brown hawkowl@atleastfornow.net wrote:
On 8 Jun 2015, at 17:27, exarkun@twistedmatrix.com wrote:
On 05:57 am, hawkowl@atleastfornow.net wrote:
Hi everyone,
As mentioned in http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted- python/2015-March/029258.html , Twisted is removing Python 2.6 support. As such, I would like to announce that 15.3 will be the last release with 2.6 support. After this release, the Python 2.6 buildbots will be removed from the 'supported' list and most likely retired.
This will remove all buildbot coverage of OS X and RHEL/CentOS. As I've been taking point on the buildbots recently, I'm going to be deploying a new CentOS 7 buildslave which will provide coverage of that platform. That just leaves OS X uncovered -- so if you would like to donate buildslaves for this, please send me an email.
I think this is backwards. There was basically no strong argument made against dropping Python 2.6 support but there was no case made for dropping OS X support. I don't think you can remove the only OS X builder from the supported list. That's equivalent to saying OS X support is being dropped.
So either the existing OS X slaves need to be upgraded first (I don't see why you wouldn't just do this) or Python 2.6 support (at least on OS X) needs to be retained until someone else volunteers a Python 2.7 OS X slave.
Hi JP,
I know that this would leave OS X uncovered -- lukasa, habnabit, and Adi have at separate points offered OS X builders of varying OS levels and even Python versions, both on the mailing list and in #twisted-dev (where Lukasa answered the call from this email and offered a Yosemite builder today), which is why I am confident that this will not end up being an issue when 15.3's first prerelease is issued.
I think the prevailing reason that we don't have an OS X 2.7 bot is that last time OS X hardware was offered, the buildbot was not being actively maintained. I've taken up the mantle in some capacity and getting Twisted supported on more platforms is my primary goal. And as an OS X user, I have some vested interest in it continuing being supported.
I think JP's point is that instead of saying "the OS X builder is going away, and if someone steps up there will be another one" we should say "we will make alternate plans for OS X before shutting off 2.6 support". I'm inclined to agree; if it's not going to be hard to do the upgrade anyway, we should make it a precondition.
-glyph
-
Amber "Hawkie" Brown -
exarkun＠twistedmatrix.com -
Glyph