On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 6:29 AM, wrote:

On 09:26 am, jml@mumak.net wrote:

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Hello,

A while ago at EuroPython, Mikeal Rogers and I talked about Deferreds and how they don't really depend on the rest of Twisted. Later, Mikeal made a branch that extracted Deferred out of the rest of Twisted, and I contributed a patch to make it more correct.

You can find the latest release at:  http://pypi.python.org/pypi/deferred/0.2

I've also made a project for it on Launchpad:  https://launchpad.net/deferred

So you can get the code with 'bzr branch lp:deferred'. Mikeal is maintaining the official trunk branch on Github.

I haven't heard anything about it on this list, so I thought I'd mention to see what you all think and whether we should do anything about it.

I think this is a good idea, except you didn't mention anything about the plan for keeping this separate codebase synchronized with Twisted development.  I hope the plan isn't to allow it to become out of date.

Well, I don't know if there's a plan per se. I'm personally not intending to maintain the code. However, if I were the maintainer, I think that I would like Twisted to depend on this code, dropping its own Deferred implementation. jml

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:35 PM, wrote:

On 09:10 pm, jml@mumak.net wrote:

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On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 6:29 AM, wrote:

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On 09:26 am, jml@mumak.net wrote:

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Hello,

A while ago at EuroPython, Mikeal Rogers and I talked about Deferreds and how they don't really depend on the rest of Twisted. Later, Mikeal made a branch that extracted Deferred out of the rest of Twisted, and I contributed a patch to make it more correct.

You can find the latest release at: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/deferred/0.2

I've also made a project for it on Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/deferred

So you can get the code with 'bzr branch lp:deferred'. Mikeal is maintaining the official trunk branch on Github.

I haven't heard anything about it on this list, so I thought I'd mention to see what you all think and whether we should do anything about it.

I think this is a good idea, except you didn't mention anything about the plan for keeping this separate codebase synchronized with Twisted development. I hope the plan isn't to allow it to become out of date.

Well, I don't know if there's a plan per se. I'm personally not intending to maintain the code.

Hm. Is Mikeal? Is he on this list?

Just had to join in order to reply. Anyone who wants to contribute is welcome to fork it and send me pull requests on github. I don't keep up with current Twisted development so I doubt I'll be in the loop enough to keep this up to date. http://github.com/mikeal/deferred

However, if I were the maintainer, I think that I would like Twisted

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to depend on this code, dropping its own Deferred implementation.

It would be pretty neat to be able to do that. I don't think it will happen unless someone is actively working towards it, though.

Jean-Paul

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On Dec 8, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Jonathan Lange wrote:

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:35 AM, wrote:

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On 09:10 pm, jml@mumak.net wrote:

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On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 6:29 AM, wrote:

...

On 09:26 am, jml@mumak.net wrote:

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A while ago at EuroPython, Mikeal Rogers and I talked about Deferreds and how they don't really depend on the rest of Twisted.

...

...

However, if I were the maintainer, I think that I would like Twisted to depend on this code, dropping its own Deferred implementation.

It would be pretty neat to be able to do that. I don't think it will happen unless someone is actively working towards it, though.

If there's in principal agreement, I can laconically work towards it.

In (ahem) principle, I agree, but my agreement is contingent upon the theoretical existence of things like "a good package manager for Python" and "installation instructions on our website which clearly explain how to install dependencies in a context-sensitive manner" (i.e. depending on your platform). Still, I think that this work is an excellent proof of concept and therefore immediately useful in its own right. Thank you, Mikeal :). So, I would regard this as a long-term goal. Given the pace of our normal, non-"laconic" work, though, I think there's little risk it will be completed in the near term ;-).

On 08:27 am, jml@mumak.net wrote:

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Glyph Lefkowitz wrote:

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On Dec 8, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Jonathan Lange wrote:

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On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:35 AM, � wrote:

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On 09:10 pm, jml@mumak.net wrote:

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On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 6:29 AM, � wrote:

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On 09:26 am, jml@mumak.net wrote: > >A while ago at EuroPython, Mikeal Rogers and I talked about >Deferreds >and how they don't really depend on the rest of Twisted.

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...

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However, if I were the maintainer, I think that I would like Twisted to depend on this code, dropping its own Deferred implementation.

It would be pretty neat to be able to do that. �I don't think it will happen unless someone is actively working towards it, though.

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If there's in principal agreement, I can laconically work towards it.

In (ahem) principle, I agree,

I can't believe I got that wrong. Sorry.

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but my agreement is contingent upon the theoretical existence of things like "a good package manager for Python" and "installation instructions on our website which clearly explain how to install dependencies in a context-sensitive manner" (i.e. depending on your platform).

I'm with you on the installation instructions. Why this should block on a good package manager for Python?

Probably it shouldn't, if we ever actually want it to happen. We can distribute the top-level deferred package with Twisted when we actually get to that point. Jean-Paul

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 3:27 AM, Jonathan Lange wrote: ...

I completely screwed up with the advanced English usage then. :(

IMHO it is very simple: extracting Deferreds out of Twisted would benefit (if at all) only people who do not use or develop Twisted. From the packaging point of view recent integration of the half a dozen Twisted related packages into one package was a big win for both users and maintainers. Extracting Deferreds would be a step backwards. As it was already mentioned in this thread it would bring an additional headache of maintaining versions compatibility etc. to Twisted developers. For Twisted users (especially those who uses their system's package managers) it would mean to install bunch of packages instead of only one again ... Let's try to estimate the practical benefits such separation would bring: - ability to write 'from deferreds import Deferred' instead of 'from twisted.internet.defer import Deferred' - IMHO is a very minor one. - ability to use 'python setup.py install' in ~/Deferreds-1.2.3 instead of 'python setup.py install' in ~/twisted-9.0.0 or 'apt-get deffereds' instead of 'apt-get twisted' does not count as a big one either. - ability to save couple of megabytes of disk space during installation - these days it is almost a joke :) - ability to save some when distributing your product with py2exe and such - that is something. But this can be solved without separation - just eliminate dependencies of the twisted.internet.defer from the rest of the system and write smart enough setup.py (I believe patches, examples and docs are welcome as usual) Did I miss something? IMHO from the practical point of view the only case when separation of Deferreds would benefit Twisted community as a whole would be inclusion of it into the standard library, but this is not going to happen soon ... Bottom line - I wouldn't blame Twisted developers for the lack of enthusiasm in this case. Regards, -- Mikhail Terekhov

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Mikhail Terekhov wrote:

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 3:27 AM, Jonathan Lange wrote: ...

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I completely screwed up with the advanced English usage then. :(

IMHO it is very simple: extracting Deferreds out of Twisted would benefit  (if at all) only people who do not use or develop Twisted.

I was referring to my misuse of "laconic", which I took to mean "lazy" and actually means "concise". ...

Bottom line - I wouldn't blame Twisted developers for the lack of enthusiasm in this case.

I, of all people, would never blame other Twisted developers for a lack of enthusiasm. jml