This list will soon be migrating to Mailman 3
Hi folks, The recent discussion of communication workflows prompted me to investigate exactly what would be involved in migrating the list to Mailman 3 (with its native web gateway and other account management improvements), and I'm happy to report that there don't appear to be any blockers to our initiating the migration. I'm currently planning to send the migration request to postmaster@python.org later this week (probably Thursday evening), but don't have an ETA for how long the actual migration may take after that (as I believe distutils-sig will be one of the larger python.org list migrations undertaken so far). Accordingly, this is an initial heads up as to exactly what the change will mean: 1. If you only ever access the mailing list via email, and never tinker with your subscription settings or look up threads in the list archives, then you shouldn't notice any real changes other than some of the headers on mails from the list changing a bit (such as the new Archived-At header appearing on each message). 2. If you do use the website to change your subscription settings or look up threads in the list archives, or have wished you had a more web-forum-like interface for accessing the list, then the rest of this email is likely to be of interest :) == Changes to subscription management (and list moderation) == Mailman 3 relies on a more conventional user account management model than the historically list-centric model in Mailman 2. This means that either before or after the migration, folks that want to modify their subscription settings will need to go to https://mail.python.org/mm3/ and register for an account. If you use GitLab, GitHub, Google, or Facebook, then you can go straight to https://mail.python.org/mm3/accounts/login/, select one of those options, and grant the required access to look up your email address. (At least for GitHub, the request will come from Mark Sapiro's developer key, and I believe that's the case for the other services as well) If your address on the linked service matches your subscription address, then you're done. If it doesn't match, then you can head to https://mail.python.org/mm3/accounts/email/ to register more addresses (and hence link any related subscriptions to your account). If you don't use any of those services, or simply don't want to use them with mail.python.org, then head to https://mail.python.org/mm3/accounts/signup/ to create a conventional username-and-password based account. Regardless of how you sign up, the primary authentication mechanism is access to the relevant email address - the old MM2 plain text email password isn't used at all. After the migration, the current https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig URL will automatically redirect to https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ For a working example of what that will look like, see https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/core-workflow.python.org/ == Changes to list archiving (and the native web gateway) == After the migration, the current list archive at https://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/ will remain in place in order to preserve existing links, but will no longer be updated with new messages. That page will also be updated with a link to the new archiver/web gateway page. That page will be at https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/, and not only features stable and predictable URLs for each post, but also includes a native web gateway, allowing folks to both create new threads and reply to existing ones using the web page, without needing to explicitly subscribe to the list first. Again, core-workflow provides an example of what that will look like in practice, with the new archive at https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/core-workflow@python.org/, and the post-migration legacy archive at https://mail.python.org/pipermail/core-workflow/. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On 24 April 2018 at 00:05, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm currently planning to send the migration request to postmaster@python.org later this week (probably Thursday evening), but don't have an ETA for how long the actual migration may take after that (as I believe distutils-sig will be one of the larger python.org list migrations undertaken so far).
The list migration to Mailman 3 has now been requested, and is expected to start around 1600 UTC, Sunday April 29th. Mark Sapiro will be handling the migration for us (Thank you, Mark!). This will be Sunday morning for the Americas and eastern Pacific, Sunday afternoon for Europe and Africa, and then trending on towards late Sunday night/early Monday morning for Asia and Oceania. The migration is expected to take an hour or two, and during that time, mails to the list may not go through, and any settings changes through the website may not get included in the migration. For folks that missed the original notice of the change, I've included the details below:
1. If you only ever access the mailing list via email, and never tinker with your subscription settings or look up threads in the list archives, then you shouldn't notice any real changes other than some of the headers on mails from the list changing a bit (such as the new Archived-At header appearing on each message).
2. If you do use the website to change your subscription settings or look up threads in the list archives, or have wished you had a more web-forum-like interface for accessing the list, then the rest of this email is likely to be of interest :)
== Changes to subscription management (and list moderation) ==
Mailman 3 relies on a more conventional user account management model than the historically list-centric model in Mailman 2. This means that either before or after the migration, folks that want to modify their subscription settings will need to go to https://mail.python.org/mm3/ and register for an account.
If you use GitLab, GitHub, Google, or Facebook, then you can go straight to https://mail.python.org/mm3/accounts/login/, select one of those options, and grant the required access to look up your email address. (At least for GitHub, the request will come from Mark Sapiro's developer key, and I believe that's the case for the other services as well)
If your address on the linked service matches your subscription address, then you're done. If it doesn't match, then you can head to https://mail.python.org/mm3/accounts/email/ to register more addresses (and hence link any related subscriptions to your account).
If you don't use any of those services, or simply don't want to use them with mail.python.org, then head to https://mail.python.org/mm3/accounts/signup/ to create a conventional username-and-password based account.
Regardless of how you sign up, the primary authentication mechanism is access to the relevant email address - the old MM2 plain text email password isn't used at all.
After the migration, the current https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig URL will automatically redirect to https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/
For a working example of what that will look like, see https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/core-workflow.python.org/
== Changes to list archiving (and the native web gateway) ==
After the migration, the current list archive at https://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/ will remain in place in order to preserve existing links, but will no longer be updated with new messages. That page will also be updated with a link to the new archiver/web gateway page.
That page will be at https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/, and not only features stable and predictable URLs for each post, but also includes a native web gateway, allowing folks to both create new threads and reply to existing ones using the web page, without needing to explicitly subscribe to the list first.
Again, core-workflow provides an example of what that will look like in practice, with the new archive at https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/core-workflow@python.org/, and the post-migration legacy archive at https://mail.python.org/pipermail/core-workflow/.
Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On 04/27/2018 09:19 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
The list migration to Mailman 3 has now been requested, and is expected to start around 1600 UTC, Sunday April 29th. Mark Sapiro will be handling the migration for us (Thank you, Mark!).
The migration is complete. There were a few anomalies in importing the archives. There were some older posts that didn't have Message-ID and/or Date: headers. This has caused a few messages to be missing and some older messages to be archived as if posted today. There were also a few with unescaped '^From ' lines in the body which causes the archived message to be truncated at that point. There may be other minor issues with the imported archives, but everything should be working at this point. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Sunday, April 29, 2018, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 04/27/2018 09:19 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
The list migration to Mailman 3 has now been requested, and is expected to start around 1600 UTC, Sunday April 29th. Mark Sapiro will be handling the migration for us (Thank you, Mark!).
The migration is complete. There were a few anomalies in importing the archives. There were some older posts that didn't have Message-ID and/or Date: headers. This has caused a few messages to be missing and some older messages to be archived as if posted today.
There were also a few with unescaped '^From ' lines in the body which causes the archived message to be truncated at that point.
There may be other minor issues with the imported archives, but everything should be working at this point.
Thanks! Something like these links may be helpful for the upgrade: Old archive: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/ https://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2018-April/thread.html New archive: https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/2018/4/
-- _______________________________________________ %(real_name)s maillist - To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org %(web_page_url)slistinfo/%(_internal_name)s
Should these parameters be interpolated with the values of variables? Mailman, HyperKitty for developers: https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/devs.html https://gitlab.com/groups/mailman https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty
On 04/29/2018 10:54 AM, Wes Turner wrote:
-- _______________________________________________ %(real_name)s maillist - To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org %(web_page_url)slistinfo/%(_internal_name)s
Should these parameters be interpolated with the values of variables?
Yes they should. That was my oversight. The list migration tool attempts to convert the old msg_footer and digest_footer attributes into the appropriate Mailman 3 equivalents but some things don't convert. I think it's fixed now. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Sunday, April 29, 2018, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 04/29/2018 10:54 AM, Wes Turner wrote:
-- _______________________________________________ %(real_name)s maillist - To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-leave@python.org %(web_page_url)slistinfo/%(_internal_name)s
Should these parameters be interpolated with the values of variables?
Yes they should. That was my oversight. The list migration tool attempts to convert the old msg_footer and digest_footer attributes into the appropriate Mailman 3 equivalents but some things don't convert.
I think it's fixed now.
Cool. Thanks again! Is there a way to add links to messages in the footer, or is there an email client that makes it easy to get the is it a message id header?
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 30 April 2018 at 05:10, Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wrote:
Cool. Thanks again! Is there a way to add links to messages in the footer, or is there an email client that makes it easy to get the is it a message id header?
Do you mean Archived-At? That's available in gmail via View Original, but yes, it's not straightforward to get. If it were possible to put it in the footer, that would be a nice addition. Paul
On 04/30/2018 12:51 AM, Paul Moore wrote:
On 30 April 2018 at 05:10, Wes Turner <wes.turner@gmail.com> wrote:
Cool. Thanks again! Is there a way to add links to messages in the footer, or is there an email client that makes it easy to get the is it a message id header?
Do you mean Archived-At? That's available in gmail via View Original, but yes, it's not straightforward to get. If it were possible to put it in the footer, that would be a nice addition.
Yes, there are both List-Archive: and Archived-At: headers in the message pointing to the archive and the message in the archive respectively, but as noted these can be difficult to impossible to see depending on your MUA. I have added the archived message link to the footer. You should see it below. If there are other suggestions for the format or content of the footer, let me know. Note: I have temporarily subscribed myself to this list to make it easier to follow this thread. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 04/30/2018 08:53 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
I have added the archived message link to the footer. You should see it below.
Let's try again. I think the old footer template was cached. This time I restarted Mailman 3. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 04/30/2018 09:14 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 04/30/2018 08:53 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
I have added the archived message link to the footer. You should see it below.
Let's try again. I think the old footer template was cached. This time I restarted Mailman 3.
One last try before I have to attack this from another angle. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 30 April 2018 at 17:23, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
One last try before I have to attack this from another angle.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan _______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG mailing list distutils-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/Q...
Yay! That worked. Thanks very much for this, Mark - it'll be a major usability improvement for me, at least. Paul
On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 30 April 2018 at 17:23, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
Message archived at https://mail.python.org/mm3/ archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/ QOXX6OAVUHVOXERAZRHEAM3WV7YMMDQR/ Yay! That worked. Thanks very much for this, Mark - it'll be a major usability improvement for me, at least.
This is something I've wanted in most mailing lists for over a decade now. Thank you very much. Did this break the existing mail archive links now, though? -- Joni Orponen
On 04/30/2018 10:02 AM, Joni Orponen wrote:
This is something I've wanted in most mailing lists for over a decade now. Thank you very much.
Did this break the existing mail archive links now, though?
No. The prior archive is still there and all prior URLs still work. The messages have also (with a few minor exceptions) been imported into the new HyperKitty archive and going forward, new posts will only be archived in the HyperKitty archive at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/> -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Looking good. The signature footer from the message from you that ends with "I think it's fixed now." appears to collapse in the Gmail interface, but no longer does with the new, helpful footer? - Is there a way to hide these list footer links in an email signature block? - If there are two '^-- \n$', do email clients fold at the first? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signature_block#Signatures_in_Usenet_postings
This latter prescription, which goes by many names, including "sig dashes", "signature cut line", "sig-marker", "sig separator" and "signature delimiter", allows software to automatically mark or remove the sig block as the receiver desires.
-- One -- Two On Monday, April 30, 2018, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 04/30/2018 10:02 AM, Joni Orponen wrote:
This is something I've wanted in most mailing lists for over a decade now. Thank you very much.
Did this break the existing mail archive links now, though?
No. The prior archive is still there and all prior URLs still work. The messages have also (with a few minor exceptions) been imported into the new HyperKitty archive and going forward, new posts will only be archived in the HyperKitty archive at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/>
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan _______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG mailing list distutils-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/mm3/ archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/ NY6M25J5SWM45V45K2CQJYM6PBXUAYCG/
On Mon, Apr 30, 2018, at 7:37 PM, Wes Turner wrote:
The signature footer from the message from you that ends with "I think it's fixed now." appears to collapse in the Gmail interface,> but no longer does with the new, helpful footer?
I think the collapsing is a heuristic based on text seen in previous messages - it may be that with a unique link at the end of each message, it won't get collapsed. Thanks Mark for this change - it will make it much easier to link other people to a discussion on the list. :-) Thomas
On 04/30/2018 11:37 AM, Wes Turner wrote:
- Is there a way to hide these list footer links in an email signature block? - If there are two '^-- \n$', do email clients fold at the first?
Note that the MM 2 list footer had somewhat different content, but the same structure as this one. In any case, if there is consensus that the 'line' at the beginning of the footer should be changed to a '-- ' separator, I can do that. Let me know. Here's more detail. This gets very tricky. If the original post is a simple text/plain message, Mailman will just append the footer to the message body. In that case, if the original had a signature with a '-- ' separator and the footer also had one, Thunderbird treats everything from the first separator on as a signature block. I didn't check any other MUAs. However, if the original post is more complicated such that after possible content filtering (not done on this list) it is other than a simple text/plain message, the footer is added as a separate MIME part. For example, the message to which I'm replying had the original structure multipart/alternative text/plain plain text alternative text/html rich text alternative and the post delivered from Mailman had the structure multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain plain text alternative text/html rich text alternative text/plain the footer There is much variation in how different MUAs render that. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
I think the mm footer should be preceded by a signature delimiter ('-- '). Is there any reason not to? If there's not an HTML footer option yet, it's probably because you'd need to change the tag structure and/or CSS. <footer>message footer </footer> </html> <div><p>footer Copying and pasting from HTML into Gmail generally causes the message to be imperceptibly upgraded to text/html. Is there a way to tell whether a draft message is text/plain or multipart text/html or? Is there a way to keep messages as plaintext (text/plain) only; as people on these lists seem to prefer? - Desktop: Ctrl-Shift-V pastes as text/plain (Linux, ) - Android: Copy/paste to a memo app, back (strips the formatting), open memo, Copy (Omni Notes, ) - iOS: In addition to indicating that the entire message has transmitted and been replied to in full, redundant and obnoxious email footers are often deleted when replying inline; the '-- ' helps indicate what can/should (?) be trimmed from the reply chain in order to keep it under 40KB. Is 40KB still the mm message size limit? On Tuesday, May 1, 2018, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote: On 04/30/2018 11:37 AM, Wes Turner wrote:
- Is there a way to hide these list footer links in an email signature block? - If there are two '^-- \n$', do email clients fold at the first?
Note that the MM 2 list footer had somewhat different content, but the same structure as this one.
In any case, if there is consensus that the 'line' at the beginning of the footer should be changed to a '-- ' separator, I can do that. Let me know.
Here's more detail.
This gets very tricky. If the original post is a simple text/plain message, Mailman will just append the footer to the message body. In that case, if the original had a signature with a '-- ' separator and the footer also had one, Thunderbird treats everything from the first separator on as a signature block. I didn't check any other MUAs.
However, if the original post is more complicated such that after possible content filtering (not done on this list) it is other than a simple text/plain message, the footer is added as a separate MIME part.
For example, the message to which I'm replying had the original structure
multipart/alternative text/plain plain text alternative text/html rich text alternative
and the post delivered from Mailman had the structure
multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain plain text alternative text/html rich text alternative text/plain the footer
There is much variation in how different MUAs render that.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan _______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG mailing list distutils-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/mm3/ar chives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/3P73LBXITY67G5K K775OONBZDKPEZAG5/
On 05/01/2018 11:03 AM, Wes Turner wrote:
I think the mm footer should be preceded by a signature delimiter ('-- '). Is there any reason not to?
I have changed the '_______________________________________________' line in the footer to '-- '. If this creates a problem for anyone, let me know. The rest of this is mostly off topic for this list. The issue of html footers and/or adding footers to html message parts has been discussed to death many times on the mailman-users@python.org list and it is discussed in our wiki at <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030707>. Mailman only adds plain text footers to messages and adds them as a separate MIME text/plain part to all but simple text/plain messages. We have no plans to change that.
Copying and pasting from HTML into Gmail generally causes the message to be imperceptibly upgraded to text/html. Is there a way to tell whether a draft message is text/plain or multipart text/html or? Is there a way to keep messages as plaintext (text/plain) only; as people on these lists seem to prefer?
Gmail likes to compose in html and send as multipart/alternative. If you see a font selection and various formatting icons at the bottom of the composition window, you are composing html. To compose plain text click the downward triangle at the bottom right of the window and select plain text mode. ...
the '-- ' helps indicate what can/should (?) be trimmed from the reply chain in order to keep it under 40KB. Is 40KB still the mm message size limit?
That's a list setting. It is currently 40KB for this list. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Hi Mark, hi Nick, On Sonntag, 29. April 2018 10:12:09 Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 04/27/2018 09:19 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
The list migration to Mailman 3 has now been requested, and is expected to start around 1600 UTC, Sunday April 29th. Mark Sapiro will be handling the migration for us (Thank you, Mark!).
The migration is complete. There were a few anomalies in importing the archives. There were some older posts that didn't have Message-ID and/or Date: headers. This has caused a few messages to be missing and some older messages to be archived as if posted today.
There were also a few with unescaped '^From ' lines in the body which causes the archived message to be truncated at that point.
There may be other minor issues with the imported archives, but everything should be working at this point.
Well, yes, apart from the X-BeenThere header, that I'm not able to locate anymore in such mails. That's a really pity, since a sieve filter clause based on this field is the most reliable and common way to file the mailing list messages in a dedicated IMAP folder. Is there a deeper reason, why this header is omitted now? Cheers, Pete
On 5/10/18 6:44 AM, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
Well, yes, apart from the X-BeenThere header, that I'm not able to locate anymore in such mails.
That's a really pity, since a sieve filter clause based on this field is the most reliable and common way to file the mailing list messages in a dedicated IMAP folder.
You should be able to filter just as well on the List-Id: header.
Is there a deeper reason, why this header is omitted now?
The main use of the header in MM 2 was to prevent potential mail loops. I think we do that differently in MM 3. That said, I can understand why you want the header. File an issue at <https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues/new>, and we can consider putting it back. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
participants (7)
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Hans-Peter Jansen -
Joni Orponen -
Mark Sapiro -
Nick Coghlan -
Paul Moore -
Thomas Kluyver -
Wes Turner