From jeff at taupro.com Thu Jan 11 10:26:46 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:26:46 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] _The Python Papers_ Online Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A602D6.1050509@taupro.com> [This is an open response to the editor of The Python Papers, Tennessee Leeuwenburg, to give him some feedback and make suggestions on how the online magazine can be improved. Viewpoints other than my own are encouraged -- Tennessee is a member of the advocacy mailing list.] See: http://pythonpapers.org Tennessee, thanks for contacting us regarding your issues getting content - as advocacy coordinator I very much want to assist you in providing to the Python community a quality online magazine focused on our interests. I've had time now to fully review your site and first issue. Let's start with the first issue: - I'd like to see a de-emphasis on the peer-reviewed aspect; while for some it denotes quality content, it puts off others who believe that your focus is academic research or perhaps carefully researched case history articles. When I first found your site, I thought, "hey, I should write an article... hmm, looks like I'd need to carefully polish anything I write, complete with references to support my arguments. Too much work for now, maybe later." While the Python community certainly has academic researchers, such as in the SciPy sub-community, many of us are far more casual about writing. - The _MontyLingua_ seemed a rather dry article, especially with the very long bibliography at the end. I say drop most of the bibliography and provide links to web content. In my world, albeit not the only one ;-), if it isn't on the web, it doesn't exist. While that may seem rather narrow-minded, the reality is that many of us don't have time to dig up the printed journals and prefer to click and explore a topic when your articles have motivated us. - You need more diagrams, especially to explain difficult concepts. Perhaps you don't have a volunteer graphics designer to help out -- if not, we'll need to help you find one. Regarding your staff, while I saw a long list of names, much of the content, of both the site and the magazine, appear to be by you. Hopefully in the next issue that will be broadened, since you're just getting started. - Since you're not constrained by number of pages, adding photos of authors would be good. I saw in your call for papers that you mention this, so perhaps it was just the first issue that was lacking in them. - Continue a strong focus on showing Python source code. We all love the readability of Python and its very-high-level nature. This makes it a better candidate than many languages for inclusion in magazines - a concisely expressed view into complex but understandable ideas. On the other hand, you don't want to show reams and reams of library code, because gone are the days people typed in source from Dr. Dobbs Journal. The source is to demonstrate the ideas, not be be a distribution medium. I'd rather be _shown_ than _told_ the concept. - Being an electronic journal, I will read your issues online. The PDF format is a problem for that - being in two-column format and sized for a letter/A4 paper size, I have to keep scrolling up and down the page to follow an article. And I imagine the paper size is an issue for your global audience - someone cannot print it out on their regional size of paper. The PDF is also a problem because I cannot link to a particular article -- so you lose the exposure via Digg and other such social sites. I would like to toss out the idea of adopting reStructuredText as the underlying format, and mechanically provide issues in various formats. If you haven't checked out reStructuredText, it is quite powerful. You can embed author credentials within each article and, by tagging articles with an :audience: or :difficulty: indicator, mechanically catalog articles on different web pages. It also becomes possible to associate keywords with articles, and later provide an advanced search facility. You could even develop sub-community issues, where pythonpapers.org/zope presents one list and pythonpapers.org/numpy presents another. reStructuredText also provides for pull-boxes (sidebars) and custom tags for other forms of magazine-specific styles of presentation. With regard to the website: - IMHO, The entry page lacks sizzle. You should highlight the table of contents, with pull abstracts, so people are quickly drawn into the magazine. I would also add a photo of Python people or some really cool technical diagram or clipart, changing every quarter. The site also doesn't come across as 'fun', but rather serious. - Add *prominent* links to the entry page: Article submissions gratefully accepted at: submissions at pythonpapers.org The editors may be contacted via email at: editor at pythonpapers.org along with a link to writer guidelines your policy of article acceptance I can peruse. As a small time article writer and advocacy coordinator, I've checked into what is involved in writing for various magazines. It is so frustrating to dig out writer guidelines, to find out which formats they require, what rights I retain, whether they pay for content and whether they accept content from outsides or only staff writers. Add a large "Write for Us!" graphic icon at the top. - I confess I'm unfamiliar with cgpublisher but if issues are free, what is the shopping cart for? A leftover artifact? - I realize you're reworking your hosting arrangements, so I'll just say to stabilize and clarify your domain structure. I got lost a bit: http://pythonpapers.org/diary http://pythonpapers.cgpublisher.com http://archive.pythonpapers.org I saw the announcement about the archive site and wondered whether I had to go there to read issues and if there was different content there. No big deal really. - The site badly needs a calendar -- to draw in both authors and readers, I need to know deadlines, when to check back for new content. I realize this depends significantly on your supply of content, but perhaps a regular publishing schedule regardless, so that good articles don't get held back waiting for additional content. And I'll be radical here, and wonder why there are issues at all. In the days of printed content, it was necessary to batch content in order to optimize postage and printing schedules. In today's online world, it seems you could run a continual publishing cycle, with an RSS feed to which your readers could subscribe to stay on top of content. It sounds like a blog but an edited, peer-reviewed blog, in a consistent format - I would like that myself especially if I would subscribe to topic tracks, like Zope and Twisted but not Django or TurboGears. Access to such subscription information could also guide you in selecting topics for publication, with a carefully designed topic taxonomy. - Are you tracking web traffic? How do you measure the success of your endeavor, the popularity of an issue? And if you keep articles together in a single PDF, you'll be unable to track the popularity of individual articles. Other suggestions: - Take a stand on whether you are focusing on beginner or advanced topics. While you want some of both, you risk boring one audience while addressing the other. In the Linux market they forked and provide separate beginner and advanced magazines. In your case, an approach is to insure a sufficient article count per issue to provide something for everyone. You may want to consider adopting a simple icon scheme in the table of content or even an automated system of generating unique tables of content for each audience, like: pythonpapers.org/beginners and pythonpapers.org/advanced. You're not constrained to paper so you can provide different views into your content. - Be sure to blog the table of contents of _each_ issue, not just the overall magazine. It is those pull titles and pull abstracts that will get people to click through to your site. - Could you explain a bit more about your use of cgpublisher and your hosting arrangements? If you're looking to change hosting, some idea of your infrastructure requirements would help -- I run a colocated server and provide hosting to others, sometimes for money and sometimes for free. Is cgpublisher something that can be installed elsewhere or a service portal? - For discussion here, could you list the titles of the articles you have selected so far for inclusion into the second issue? I'm curious how rich your submission queue is and what we can do to help. I would also suggest adding a link from your entry page and/or writer guidelines to the advocacy page of article ideas, as a suggestion for those who want to write for you but can't think of anything. You can find it at: http://wiki.python.org/moin/ArticleIdeas I plan to do some promotion to try to get people to submit topics which they would like to read, even if they themselves cannot do the writing. Having a single pool of writing ideas would help us all. If you are interested in the reStructuredText approach, with a continual publish cycle in different formats, perhaps I can help a bit. My advocacy infrastructure work is built on just such a system, although still in the developmental stages, at advocacy.python.org. The idea there is similar, to have medium-sized chunks of writing dynamically split out into different formats and organizational layouts. Of course I understand you may prefer the cgpublisher approach, with cool features I'm unaware of. Above all - don't get discouraged! As Stephan Deibel said, it takes time to establish a presence in the Python community. One key lesson I've learned in my work for PyCon and advocacy is that the community is fragmented, and you have to go into the various sub-communities and talk to them. I've joined many Python mailing lists in the past year, just so I can converse with various groups, which was reflected in the quantity of talk submissions for PyCon. Although we have the general python-users mailing list/newsgroup, along with the python-announce list/newsgroup, the vast majority of Python developers are on neither. Here in Dallas, hardly anyone in the DFW Pythoneers reads those lists, despite repeated recommendations they do so. It can be very frustrating, that you can't just fire a press release at python-announce and assume it reaches people. Heck, I keep running across individual Python developers locally who are on no mailing lists and know no one else who uses Python. They are so relieved to find our user group. Give it time, as we reach out and work to gather them together. -Jeff > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:16:50 +1100 > From: Tennessee Leeuwenburg > To: psf at python.org > Subject: [PSF-Board] The Python Papers: Collaboration with the Python > Software Foundation > > I am currently working as Editor-In-Chief on a free journal called "The > Python Papers" (http://pythonpapers.org). I had intended to spend more time > building up the interest in the journal before contacting the PSF, however I > now believe that we will need the help of the PSF sooner in order to make > the project and ongoing success. > > We are currently approaching our second edition. Our content is primarily > generated by the team involved in creating the journal, and I had been > hoping for more interest from outside our group. Unfortunately, while many > people have expressed their congratulations on the first edition, this has > not been followed by contributions of articles. We have enough content to > put out one more edition, but after that I think we will need to re-examine > whether the journal is feasible unless we find a sharp increase in interest > from the community. > > There are a few specific things we need help with: > 1: Gaining greater community contribution. I believe that greater > recognition would assist this. > 2: Closer ties with prominent Python groups, such as SIG and PUG leaders > and notable members of the community > 3: Technical assistance moving and maintaining our web page for better > outreach (currently a web-redirect prevents Google from indexing the site) > > I have contacted many PUGs on this matter, although I have yet to contact > SIGs individually. While there may be good reasons for the lack of response, > I think it is a shame that the Python community is not more closely > connected. I had been hoping to feature articles covering the various SIG > groups, thereby showing somewhat of the diversity and reach of Python around > the world. > > In addition to this, we provide academic publishing with a full peer-review > process. > > It seems to me that the goals of The Python Papers are very much in the > Python community's best interests. Obviously, people may disagree, but to > date the response has been very positive. > > I would be very interested to hear what the PSF might think of this effort > and pursue a closer relationship if possible. From tennessee at tennessee.id.au Fri Jan 12 00:48:19 2007 From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:48:19 +1100 Subject: [python-advocacy] _The Python Papers_ Online Magazine In-Reply-To: <45A602D6.1050509@taupro.com> References: <45A602D6.1050509@taupro.com> Message-ID: <43c8685c0701111548ua8937c0re702cf0744600178@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jeff and others, Thanks for your comments. It is wonderful to recieve feedback on the effort so far. While I have my own ideas about how to do things, I'm doing this with common goals in mind and I want to make sure everyone who has an interest is involved to whatever extent they would like. - I'd like to see a de-emphasis on the peer-reviewed aspect; while for > some it denotes quality content, it puts off others who believe that > your focus is academic research or perhaps carefully researched case > history articles. When I first found your site, I thought, "hey, I > should write an article... hmm, looks like I'd need to carefully > polish anything I write, complete with references to support my > arguments. Too much work for now, maybe later." While the Python > community certainly has academic researchers, such as in the SciPy > sub-community, many of us are far more casual about writing. I can see your point. I had initially thought that having peer-reviewed articles would be a strong drawcard -- that developers would be excited by the resume-enhancing prospects of a peer-reviewed paper being accepted, and by the the 'stamp of quality' the process gives to those articles. However, I think that is intimidating and that while I still feel it is a valuable, it could be as you say de-emphasised. Ideally I would like each edition to contain 2-3 casual articles, 1 academic article, and about 3-4 pages of editorial, letters, feedback etc. - The _MontyLingua_ seemed a rather dry article, especially with the > very long bibliography at the end. I say drop most of the > bibliography > and provide links to web content. In my world, albeit not the only > one ;-), if it isn't on the web, it doesn't exist. While that may > seem > rather narrow-minded, the reality is that many of us don't have time > to dig up the printed journals and prefer to click and explore a > topic when your articles have motivated us. Yes, I kind of realised that but didn't have a strategy. Perhaps if we put the bibliographies in as appendixes after the magazine content... - You need more diagrams, especially to explain difficult concepts. > Perhaps you don't have a volunteer graphics designer to help out > -- if not, we'll need to help you find one. Regarding your staff, > while I saw a long list of names, much of the content, of both the > site and the magazine, appear to be by you. Hopefully in the next > issue that will be broadened, since you're just getting started. It's hard to say. In terms of concrete submissions, it's still mostly our work, although we now have some content from various user groups and a few expressions of interest which might yet make it into the next issue. I'd ideally like to reach a point where we are not including any content from the editorial board solely for the purpose of making the issue. No we don't have a graphic designer, although I can really see the need. Diagrams for each issue would be wonderful, ditto cartoons, but without resources to pay anyone or the contacts to find a volunteer, we have just pressed on without for the time being. - Since you're not constrained by number of pages, adding photos of > authors would be good. I saw in your call for papers that you mention > this, so perhaps it was just the first issue that was lacking in them. I'm intending to include photographs in this edition, but I have no personal photographs as yet. Each submitting PUG will be accompanied by a photograph of their area if I can find one which is redistributable under our license. - Continue a strong focus on showing Python source code. We all love > the readability of Python and its very-high-level nature. Agreed, but it's great to know what is resonating with the readers and what is not. We'll make sure this remains a priority. - Being an electronic journal, I will read your issues online. The PDF > format is a problem for that We really need to get into multiformat publishing, but it's not easy to know what the best path is. It's a problem that's not going to go away anytime soon, but let's look at your suggestion below: I would like to toss out the idea of adopting reStructuredText as > the underlying format, and mechanically provide issues in various > formats. This is a possibility. Another possibility would be Google Docs and Spreadsheets which will export to HTML and PDF. The most important thing is the workload -- rST would involve a manual reformatting of virtually every submmission, while using OpenOffice allows me to preserve the Author's original formatting. I have been a little scared of taking that particular plunge, but perhaps it is time. With regard to the website: > > - IMHO, The entry page lacks sizzle. Agreed. along with a link to writer guidelines your policy of article > acceptance I can peruse. Yeah, this is my fault. Add a large "Write for Us!" graphic icon at the top. Great idea! - I confess I'm unfamiliar with cgpublisher but if issues are > free, what is the shopping cart for? A leftover artifact? cgpublisher is a vehicle for managing submissions and the peer review process, but it's not a must-have. It can also be used behind the scenes rather than as our website. As you say, the shopping cart is just part of the software which isn't easy to turn off. - The site badly needs a calendar -- to draw in both authors and > readers, I need to know deadlines, when to check back for new > content. I realize this depends significantly on your supply of > content, but perhaps a regular publishing schedule regardless, so > that good articles don't get held back waiting for additional > content. Another great idea. And I'll be radical here, and wonder why there are issues at all. I think we need issues in order to fulfil the requirements of an academic journal. However, it's also a workload issue for me... Not too radical, but I think at the moment not as high a priority as many of your other excellent suggestions. - Are you tracking web traffic? How do you measure the success of > your endeavor, the popularity of an issue? And if you keep articles > together in a single PDF, you'll be unable to track the popularity > of individual articles. I'm tracking site visits, but that's it so far. Other suggestions: > - Could you explain a bit more about your use of cgpublisher and your > hosting arrangements? If you're looking to change hosting, some > idea of your infrastructure requirements would help -- I run a > colocated server and provide hosting to others, sometimes for money > and sometimes for free. Is cgpublisher something that can be > installed elsewhere or a service portal? cgpublisher is not a necessary part of the website, so much as a tool for assisting in the editorial process, so we can (and I believe, should) separate it out. It's more of a workload problem than a technical one at this stage. - For discussion here, could you list the titles of the articles you > have selected so far for inclusion into the second issue? I'm > curious how rich your submission queue is and what we can do to help. We have an article I wrote extending the Idioms series I began in edition one, another article by Maurice on a tool for the firebird database, three PUG submissions briefly covering their user groups and one expression of interest to write an article on the "task coach" project. We need more articles to make the journal sizzle. I would also suggest adding a link from your entry page and/or writer > guidelines to the advocacy page of article ideas, as a suggestion > for those who want to write for you but can't think of anything. > You can find it at: > > http://wiki.python.org/moin/ArticleIdeas Great idea, I'll do that promptly. I think I need a new web page, and I will put it on there, starting work more or less immediately. If anyone could assist in the work of doing this, it would be much appreciated as it's just me at the moment really. The rest of our board are currently either busy or have different skills. Thanks for your message. I'll keep you updated as work progresses. Cheers, -T -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070112/150a7d04/attachment.html From tennessee at tennessee.id.au Fri Jan 12 00:56:18 2007 From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:56:18 +1100 Subject: [python-advocacy] _The Python Papers_ Online Magazine In-Reply-To: <45A602D6.1050509@taupro.com> References: <45A602D6.1050509@taupro.com> Message-ID: <43c8685c0701111556q3e362681u3774e0f06c15e90a@mail.gmail.com> In terms of hosting, I think I will need to find a better web host. CGPublisher is hosted as a web service, and that's currently what pythonpapers.org is pointed at. To make a better site, I think I will need something that is hosted on a real box, with proper DNS setup rather than using a redirect. Among other things, this prevents Google from indexing our main site -- a big drawback. I am not a web developer -- my work is in standalone applications. Obviously one can't get by without some understanding of the web, but I haven't been writing web apps for a long time, so I don't know what the best choices are for a web framework. Recently, I have been experimenting with webware, a Python-based framework with a similar structure to a Java Servlet approach. I find this to be easy enough to develop in. If somewhere would be able to host a site written in this fashion, that would be great. Alternatively, if anyone wanted to provide some gruntwork assistance getting up and running, I would just adapt to their recommendations. Another alternative would be to generate a static site with vim and good old hard yakka, but I don't know if that will cut the mustard. Any and all advice on this matter gratefully accepted. Cheers, -T -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070112/d8639910/attachment.html From david at boddie.org.uk Fri Jan 12 01:42:30 2007 From: david at boddie.org.uk (David Boddie) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 01:42:30 +0100 Subject: [python-advocacy] _The Python Papers_ Online Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200701120142.30656.david@boddie.org.uk> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:26:46 -0600, Jeff Rush wrote: > ? ? ?And I'll be radical here, and wonder why there are issues at all. > ? ? ?In the ?days of printed content, it was necessary to batch content > ? ? ?in order to optimize postage and printing schedules. ?In today's > ? ? ?online world, it seems you could run a continual publishing cycle, > ? ? ?with an RSS feed to which your readers could subscribe to stay on > ? ? ?top of content. Having issues means having deadlines. While these can put off some contributors, who might put off finishing an article if they see that they'll miss a deadline, they do motivate others to finish articles that would otherwise not be completed. Additionally, taking an issue-based approach may mean that articles receive more attention than they would if they continually trickle out via an RSS feed. As long as the publishing cycle is short enough you can still use RSS to inform readers of new articles, and it makes the release of new articles more of an event. It means that editors need to chase contributors for content, but that would also happen in a continual publishing cycle, where a lack of articles would be quickly reflected in an RSS feed. Still, a continual publishing cycle is an interesting idea. Maybe there's an approach to this that could use both types of publishing to complement each other. David From alvinwang at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 05:15:06 2007 From: alvinwang at gmail.com (Alvin Wang) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:15:06 -0800 Subject: [python-advocacy] SD West Message-ID: <77d044440701142015j2cbfe5c2n35a8d5fec8e98ecd@mail.gmail.com> I find it concerning that a major programming conference has added Ruby as a track but there is no track on Python. http://www.sdexpo.com/ If we want Python to be more popular, we need to have it in the mainstream. -- Alvin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070114/fabde540/attachment.html From sdeibel at wingware.com Mon Jan 15 18:10:35 2007 From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:10:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [python-advocacy] SD West In-Reply-To: <77d044440701142015j2cbfe5c2n35a8d5fec8e98ecd@mail.gmail.com> References: <77d044440701142015j2cbfe5c2n35a8d5fec8e98ecd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Jan 2007, Alvin Wang wrote: > I find it concerning that a major programming conference has added Ruby as a > track but there is no track on Python. > > http://www.sdexpo.com/ > > If we want Python to be more popular, we need to have it in the mainstream. You have a good point although I'd argue Python is already in the mainstream as far as how/where it's used. It is just not represented well in the mass business-oriented software development media. I think the reason for this is that Python has missed the boat at each opportunity to hype itself as a compelling solution around the sound-byte-oriented "problems" these types of media/venues want to cover. Things like "the web" (when it was new), "RAD", "web2.0", "dynamic languages", etc. (Even though Python is very good at many things, and many people have quietly used it as a "secret weapon") Also, I sometimes wonder if it's also that Python is too easy to use to support creation of the usual huge third party book, magazine, best practices, etc machine. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if this track is the result of the efforts of one or a few dedicated individuals. So if you are concerned and motivated by this, by all means contact them and see if you can get a track started for next year! - Stephan From grig at gheorghiu.net Mon Jan 15 18:29:08 2007 From: grig at gheorghiu.net (Grig Gheorghiu) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:29:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [python-advocacy] SD West In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stephan Deibel wrote: > On Sun, 14 Jan 2007, Alvin Wang wrote: > > I find it concerning that a major programming conference has added > Ruby as a > > track but there is no track on Python. > > > > http://www.sdexpo.com/ > > > > If we want Python to be more popular, we need to have it in the > mainstream. > > You have a good point although I'd argue Python is already in the > mainstream as far as how/where it's used. It is just not > represented well in the mass business-oriented software > development media. > > I think the reason for this is that Python has missed the boat at > each opportunity to hype itself as a compelling solution around > the sound-byte-oriented "problems" these types of media/venues > want to cover. Things like "the web" (when it was new), "RAD", > "web2.0", "dynamic languages", etc. > > (Even though Python is very good at many things, and many people > have quietly used it as a "secret weapon") > > Also, I sometimes wonder if it's also that Python is too easy to > use to support creation of the usual huge third party book, > magazine, best practices, etc machine. My take on this is that Ruby has been embraced by the "enterprise Java" people, who have grown to be very dissatisfied with the heavy-weight J2EE solutions. The fact that Ruby on Rails burst on the scene before Django/TurboGears meant that they all suddenly perceived Ruby and RoR as the holy grail. > > That said, it wouldn't surprise me if this track is the result of > the efforts of one or a few dedicated individuals. So if you are > concerned and motivated by this, by all means contact them and > see if you can get a track started for next year! > My impression is that the "few dedicated individuals" are insiders to the various SD and Agile conferences. It's well known that the Pragmatic Programmers have embraced Ruby as their language of choice, and I'm sure part of the reason is so they can be the first to write and sell books about it. Also, many of the "Agile gurus" use Ruby these days, again ditching Java (Martin Fowler comes to mind, and generally speaking all of the ThoughWorks guys). So I think it will be pretty hard to get Python where Ruby is in terms of attention from industry luminaries. Hard, but not impossible -- and as Stephan says, nothing prevents a few dedicated individuals to at least try to achieve the same for Python, at least as far as the SD conferences are concerned. Grig From d-beazley at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 15 18:54:32 2007 From: d-beazley at sbcglobal.net (David Beazley) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:54:32 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] SD West In-Reply-To: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <548C2034-3166-4701-898B-CC90ACD20050@sbcglobal.net> > > My impression is that the "few dedicated individuals" are insiders to > the various SD and Agile conferences. It's well known that the > Pragmatic Programmers have embraced Ruby as their language of choice, > and I'm sure part of the reason is so they can be the first to write > and sell books about it. Also, many of the "Agile gurus" use Ruby > these > days, again ditching Java (Martin Fowler comes to mind, and generally > speaking all of the ThoughWorks guys). > Years ago, I attended the 1st Annual Ruby conference out of curiosity. Having also attended some early Python conferences (IPC4), I have to say that the two conferences were vastly different. The Ruby conference was co-located with the OOPSLA conference. As a result, the attendees were drawn heavily from that community. In particular, there seemed to be a lot of Enterprise Computing and OO gurus in attendance. The first Python conference I went to seemed to be populated by a weird mix of web-hackers, physicists, and lone-programmers. Anyways, it's probably no accident that Ruby is showing up in the various SD conferences since many of Ruby's early adopters probably came out of that community to begin with. I'm not sure if the lack of Python in these venues is good or bad though. Cheers, Dave From roy at panix.com Mon Jan 15 19:45:02 2007 From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:45:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [python-advocacy] The language for the rest of us? In-Reply-To: <548C2034-3166-4701-898B-CC90ACD20050@sbcglobal.net> References: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> <548C2034-3166-4701-898B-CC90ACD20050@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <21349.128.221.197.182.1168886702.squirrel@mail.panix.com> Digg featured an interview with Bjarne Stroustrup about C++ today. The full article is at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000768.html, but here's a nice quote: "I think [making computer languages easier for average people] would be misguided. The idea of programming as a semiskilled task, practiced by people with a few months' training, is dangerous. We wouldn't tolerate plumbers or accountants that poorly educated. We don't have as an aim that architecture (of buildings) and engineering (of bridges and trains) should become more accessible to people with progressively less training. Indeed, one serious problem is that currently, too many software developers are undereducated and undertrained." Basicly, what he's saying is "I dont mind that C++ is hard, because programming is supposed to be hard and if you're not good enough to code in C++, you shouldn't be coding". That's the kind of elitist attitude Python rails (if I may use that word on this list) against. Maybe Python is the "programming language for the rest of us". But, that's not to say that only people who can't make it as uber-elite C++ programmers should be using Python. If you're good enough to survive as a C++ programmer, think how much more productive you could be in Python, where all that mental energy can go into solving your problem, instead of doing battle with the language. From alvinwang at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 20:13:43 2007 From: alvinwang at gmail.com (Alvin Wang) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:13:43 -0800 Subject: [python-advocacy] SD West In-Reply-To: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77d044440701151113o17cd17au9293a62f29a1379b@mail.gmail.com> My goal for 2007 depends on whether I can land Pycon. I am preparing a bid for the San Francisco Bay Area. I have to discuss this with the Pycon organizers but media usually gets free registration for conferences. I don't currently see this on Pycon registration. I know a few people at Cnet which is based in SF. There are several computer magazines based here. I also have several goals in terms of tracks and attendees. I would like to have over 1000 attendees. Mostly from the Bay Area since that is easier. I want to have an ISP track or at least talks. How to securely host Python? How to admin a system using Python? Etc. There are a ton of ISPs in the Bay Area. They mainly use Php and Java. I am also mulling the idea of starting a python sig in SdForum. There is a Ruby sig there. SdForum is the largest programmer user group in Silicon Valley. BayPiggies is a fine group but does not interact with the mainstream much. -- Alvin Wang -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070115/2fc4aa7a/attachment.html From tennessee at tennessee.id.au Mon Jan 15 23:58:03 2007 From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:58:03 +1100 Subject: [python-advocacy] SD West In-Reply-To: <77d044440701151113o17cd17au9293a62f29a1379b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> <77d044440701151113o17cd17au9293a62f29a1379b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43c8685c0701151458g70e349eap8bfc35f6a4aa38b7@mail.gmail.com> My 2c is that it's primarily a user-base issue. Python is a great language, and I think that Python people love their language more than most people I know. However, there are relatively few people who are able to work full-time on marketing Python. By this I mean people whose Paid Job is to do the website, write magazine articles, run conferences etc. In Java, it's possible to make a career basically out of being a "guru" -- self-styling yourself, running a blog and a website, and promoting the language, getting paid appearance money, advertising dollars and working as a journalist. Python, by contrast, isn't covered by any (Australian) bookstand magazines that I know about, nor do we import any from the U.S. There aren't any partnered magazines, no real major distribution channels for making Python look sexy. It's gotten as far as it has on quality alone, but I don't know if that's enough to get it to the 'next level' without first getting populist groundswell in the way I've been talking about. Certainly the community seems to be fragmented. It has been difficult getting people to contribute to The Python Papers for example, when it should have been easy... ... to be continued ... Cheers, -T -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070116/5adb0f85/attachment.html From sdeibel at wingware.com Tue Jan 16 06:01:23 2007 From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 00:01:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [python-advocacy] The language for the rest of us? In-Reply-To: <21349.128.221.197.182.1168886702.squirrel@mail.panix.com> References: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> <548C2034-3166-4701-898B-CC90ACD20050@sbcglobal.net> <21349.128.221.197.182.1168886702.squirrel@mail.panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, Roy Smith wrote: > Digg featured an interview with Bjarne Stroustrup about C++ today. The > full article is at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000768.html, > but here's a nice quote: > > "I think [making computer languages easier for average people] would be > misguided. The idea of programming as a semiskilled task, practiced by > people with a few months' training, is dangerous. We wouldn't tolerate > plumbers or accountants that poorly educated. We don't have as an aim that > architecture (of buildings) and engineering (of bridges and trains) should > become more accessible to people with progressively less training. Indeed, > one serious problem is that currently, too many software developers are > undereducated and undertrained." > > Basicly, what he's saying is "I dont mind that C++ is hard, because > programming is supposed to be hard and if you're not good enough to code > in C++, you shouldn't be coding". That's the kind of elitist attitude > Python rails (if I may use that word on this list) against. Maybe Python > is the "programming language for the rest of us". That's interesting. Thanks for posting this link. I think we all know Stroustrup's argument is silly -- the real question to me is how this industry gets away with purposely choosing tools that make it harder, more expensive, and often impossible to get the work done. Of course the answer is there's money to be made doing that. I wonder if Ruby, once embraced by the IT racket, will get loaded up with all sorts of architectural methodology patent medicine whizgig stuff that ruins it. It seems almost inevitable. Perhaps that's a reason not to try too hard to get Python positioned in the same way. Sigh. I'm still hoping that some day choosing software development tools will become a rational endeavor. Meanwhile, it's apparently a sign of professional skill to frame up a house with a 5 ounce hammer. Tap tap tap tap... I should get this nail in by the end of the day. - Stephan From amk at amk.ca Tue Jan 16 16:03:51 2007 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:03:51 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] _The Python Papers_ Online Magazine In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0701111556q3e362681u3774e0f06c15e90a@mail.gmail.com> References: <45A602D6.1050509@taupro.com> <43c8685c0701111556q3e362681u3774e0f06c15e90a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070116150351.GC8382@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Jan 12, 2007 at 10:56:18AM +1100, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > Another alternative would be to generate a static site with vim and good old > hard yakka, but I don't know if that will cut the mustard. Any and all > advice on this matter gratefully accepted. A reader can't really tell the difference, and there are static-file generating tools such as rest2web if you don't want to write HTML manually. I don't think writing a web-based content management application is a good use of your effort unless it adds significant value for the editor or for the reader? And learning the tools and fixing problems can burn a whole lot of your time... (The Jython Monthly just assembles issues within a wiki, and then someone posts an announcement once an issue is complete: .) I'd modify Jeff's suggestion about peer-review; instead of discarding peer-review completely, clarify it, explaining that there are reviewed articles and more casual articles. I don't think dropping the bibliographies buys much; presumably the author already assembled their bibliography. >From PyCon I've learned that it does pay to be gently pushy: if someone makes a vague offer to do something, poke them about it in a few days/weeks/months. A little push is often the trigger that people need to actually start or finish off something. --amk From jeff at taupro.com Tue Jan 16 16:31:47 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:31:47 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PyCON-Organizers] SD West In-Reply-To: <4335d2c40701151148j34417924j36a69e2a0ce0866e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> <77d044440701151113o17cd17au9293a62f29a1379b@mail.gmail.com> <4335d2c40701151148j34417924j36a69e2a0ce0866e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45ACEFE3.2060506@taupro.com> David Goodger wrote: > > On 1/15/07, Alvin Wang wrote: >> My goal for 2007 depends on whether I can land Pycon. I am >> preparing a bid for the San Francisco Bay Area. > > I will probably be chairing the PSF's Conference Committee (== PyCon > committee) after PyCon 2007, so I am very interested to hear about > this. If you have any questions please feel free to ask. We'd > like to be able to consider bids at PyCon 2007, and hopefully make a > decision then. For more information, see > http://pycon.blogspot.com/2006/10/reminder-bids-wanted-for-hosting-pycon.html > http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2006/04/so-you-want-to-host-pycon-2008.html > http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyConPlanning/BidRequirements David, we should establish a "PyCon 2008 Bids" wiki page someplace that links to where the groups are working, so that other people in their region can find and maybe get involved in the bid process. And then a few blogs afterward announcing it. So that makes three, right? Chicago Boston San Francisco -Jeff From goodger at python.org Tue Jan 16 17:20:17 2007 From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:20:17 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] PyCon 2008 bid page Message-ID: <4335d2c40701160820m663e91dfvae47700da1c2c3b1@mail.gmail.com> On 1/16/07, Jeff Rush wrote: > David, we should establish a "PyCon 2008 Bids" wiki page someplace that links > to where the groups are working, so that other people in their region can find > and maybe get involved in the bid process. Done: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2008 > And then a few blogs afterward announcing it. I'll let the organizers know about it first, give them a chance to add some details. > So that makes three, right? > > Chicago > Boston > San Francisco There's actually one other, Cleveland Ohio; don't know its status. -- David Goodger From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Jan 16 18:55:22 2007 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:55:22 -0800 Subject: [python-advocacy] The language for the rest of us? In-Reply-To: <21349.128.221.197.182.1168886702.squirrel@mail.panix.com> References: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> <548C2034-3166-4701-898B-CC90ACD20050@sbcglobal.net> <21349.128.221.197.182.1168886702.squirrel@mail.panix.com> Message-ID: <20070116175522.GA1406@panix.com> On Mon, Jan 15, 2007, Roy Smith wrote: > > Digg featured an interview with Bjarne Stroustrup about C++ today. The > full article is at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000768.html, > but here's a nice quote: > > "I think [making computer languages easier for average people] would be > misguided. The idea of programming as a semiskilled task, practiced by > people with a few months' training, is dangerous. We wouldn't tolerate > plumbers or accountants that poorly educated. We don't have as an aim that > architecture (of buildings) and engineering (of bridges and trains) should > become more accessible to people with progressively less training. Indeed, > one serious problem is that currently, too many software developers are > undereducated and undertrained." Wow. And I thought this was a joke: http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/May/stroustrup.html -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose." From tennessee at tennessee.id.au Tue Jan 16 23:46:42 2007 From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:46:42 +1100 Subject: [python-advocacy] Assistance with The Python Papers Message-ID: <43c8685c0701161446l5ab03c28o7d83e9146a896ce7@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone, I have assembled most of the content necessary for the next edition of The Python Papers, however there are two really big ancilliary tasks still do be done. 1.) Make a new website 2.) Make a 2-page flyer for PyCon 2007 by Feb 16. I've got about as much graphic design talent as the guy who invented ... something really ugly. I could really use the help making these things happen. I have a lot of ideas about the various sections I would like to see on a website, but lack the skills to make it great. If I have to go it alone, I can probably just about manage 'okay I guess' in the quality stakes. Number two will definitely need outside assistance. So, if anyone is handy with a mousebrush, please let me know!!! Thanks very much, -Tennessee (Editor-In-Chief, The Python Papers) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070117/fa34ccd1/attachment.html From amk at amk.ca Wed Jan 17 13:13:25 2007 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 07:13:25 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] The language for the rest of us? In-Reply-To: <20070116175522.GA1406@panix.com> References: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> <548C2034-3166-4701-898B-CC90ACD20050@sbcglobal.net> <21349.128.221.197.182.1168886702.squirrel@mail.panix.com> <20070116175522.GA1406@panix.com> Message-ID: <20070117121325.GB14454@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 09:55:22AM -0800, Aahz wrote: > Wow. And I thought this was a joke: > http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/May/stroustrup.html And yet I have a Stroustrup quote: There's an old story about the person who wished his computer were as easy to use as his telephone. That wish has come true, since I no longer know how to use my telephone. Don't have a detailed source for that, though. --amk From roy at panix.com Wed Jan 17 14:16:13 2007 From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:16:13 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] The language for the rest of us? In-Reply-To: <20070117121325.GB14454@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> References: <20070115172908.73752.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> <548C2034-3166-4701-898B-CC90ACD20050@sbcglobal.net> <21349.128.221.197.182.1168886702.squirrel@mail.panix.com> <20070116175522.GA1406@panix.com> <20070117121325.GB14454@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> Message-ID: <36D21620-3196-4A46-9328-FD247BD2208F@panix.com> It's on BS's own homepage: http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq.html#really-say-that -- roy at panix.com On Jan 17, 2007, at 7:13 AM, A.M. Kuchling wrote: > On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 09:55:22AM -0800, Aahz wrote: >> Wow. And I thought this was a joke: >> http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/May/stroustrup.html > > And yet I have a Stroustrup quote: > > There's an old story about the person who wished his computer > were as easy to use as his telephone. That wish has come > true, since I no longer know how to use my telephone. > > Don't have a detailed source for that, though. > > --amk > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy From duke at tuba.net Thu Jan 18 02:56:12 2007 From: duke at tuba.net (duke at tuba.net) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:56:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [python-advocacy] The language for the rest of us? Message-ID: <4244.189.145.157.102.1169085372.squirrel@webmail.tuba.net> hi.. introducing me noob that would like to learn python problem: no time.. but have created a site that you might find useful to help promote the language: http://wixi.cc the idea is a real-world example to solve a specific prob and deliver real-world solution to real-world project called the OLPC: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/wixi interesting note: there is a major grant (up to ?30K) http://wixi.cc/index.php?title=digital_pioneers deadline soon: FEB 5 please help connect great python developers with this great opportunity! thanks duke From jeff at taupro.com Thu Jan 18 16:32:11 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:32:11 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] Checking In with the Community... Message-ID: <45AF92FB.2010208@taupro.com> Greetings. It's been quiet on this list - I guess everyone is getting back to work after the holidays or speakers/instructors are preparing for PyCon. As some of you know, we're trying to develop a library of flyers, whitepapers and web blurbs on various aspects of Python, as well as encourage the community to write articles for magazines. You can review the lists of what's needed at: - http://wiki.python.org/moin/AdvocacyWritingTasks - http://wiki.python.org/moin/ArticleIdeas I'd like to thank Demian for writing the reStructuredText document "About Python, for the Java Programmer", for use on the advocacy website. He wrapped it up back in December, doing a great job. You can read it at: http://advocacy.python.org/docs/python-vs-java.3600.en.1 I think it might need a 'features comparison' chart, even for several of the common languages to which Python gets compared, if anyone wants to tackle that. Some of the pending writing assignments that people have volunteered for are: "Python for C/C++ Programmers" Joshua Simpson "Python and Databases" Greg Lindstrom "Python: Data Visualization and Graphing" Bugra Cakir "How to Start and Run a Successful Python User Group" Jeff Rush "How to Start and Run a Successful Python Conference" Andrew Kuchling There obviously is a bit of a problem there, as several of those people are involved in PyCon activities. ;-) But I hope we can crank these out soon and get them available for others to critique and distribute. We could use someone with graphics layout talent, to produce flyers. Some of the flyers needed are: - (flyer) What is Python? - (flyer) There is more to life; there is Python (for college campuses) - (flyer) Have Fun Programming (Again!) and then there are unassigned writing tasks: - (whitepaper) Using Python to improve Java - (whitepaper) Using Python to improve .NET - (whitepaper) Python: Your Competitive Advantage - (whitepaper) Scientific Computing with Python - (whitepaper) The Python Alternative to Matlab - (whitepaper) Cool Programming Features of Python - (reST) About Python, for the Ruby Programmer - (reST) Choosing Between Ruby and Python - (whitepaper) Python in the Classroom - (whitepaper) Game Development with Python - (whitepaper) The Speedy Python - (whitepaper) Linking Python with your Code Even if you don't have time to take on an entire paper, your input in creating an outline of what to cover would be very welcome. On the AdvocacyWritingTasks wiki page, there is a link from each title to a wiki page on which to scribble an outline or even just notes. Consider helping by jotting down some ideas for someone else to run with. ---- If you're not the literate-writing type, we also need help in completing the remaining 15% of Python-equivalent recipes (and review the existing 85% for being current with Python 2.5) of the Programming Language Examples Alike Cookbook (http://pleac.sourceforge.net/), a side-by-side comparison of algorithms in different programming languages based on the Perl Cookbook. ---- Recently _The Python Papers_ asked for our help, both in feedback and article submissions. I posted some feedback here on the list but I'm sure they would appreciate additional viewpoints - and perhaps even a short article or two. Hey, it'd be much less writing than a whitepaper! -Jeff From d-beazley at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 18 16:39:20 2007 From: d-beazley at sbcglobal.net (David Beazley) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:39:20 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] Checking In with the Community... In-Reply-To: <45AF92FB.2010208@taupro.com> References: <45AF92FB.2010208@taupro.com> Message-ID: > > Even if you don't have time to take on an entire paper, your input > in creating > an outline of what to cover would be very welcome. On the > AdvocacyWritingTasks wiki page, there is a link from each title to > a wiki page > on which to scribble an outline or even just notes. Consider > helping by > jotting down some ideas for someone else to run with. > This might be a dumb question, but what is the procedure for signing up or participating on one of these papers? Do we just edit the wiki? FYI, I would like to be involved with the "The Speedy Python" task. Cheers, Dave From ziade.tarek at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 17:02:27 2007 From: ziade.tarek at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tarek_Ziad=E9?=) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:02:27 +0100 Subject: [python-advocacy] Checking In with the Community... In-Reply-To: <45AF92FB.2010208@taupro.com> References: <45AF92FB.2010208@taupro.com> Message-ID: <94bdd2610701180802w6b1e3c95qa6c60b58a17ff231@mail.gmail.com> On 1/18/07, Jeff Rush wrote: > > Even if you don't have time to take on an entire paper, your input in > creating > an outline of what to cover would be very welcome. On the > AdvocacyWritingTasks wiki page, there is a link from each title to a wiki > page > on which to scribble an outline or even just notes. Consider helping by > jotting down some ideas for someone else to run with. Besides writing some when i'll find the time: I can make french translations of the written papers, if you think it worth it. The Python community in french countries like France and Belgium is quite active, and even though most of us are used to work with english documents, having a bigger corpus of native language documents would be good for python adoption/spreading imho. When googling from france, we always get french results at the top.. This leads to another question I am asking myself: should we have 'official' translations in python.org or links to other sites ? I don't think this is efficient: http://wiki.python.org/moin/Languages/French?highlight=%28CategoryLanguage%29 As a french person, I would rather have multilingual pages over python.org(when available) Tarek btw: could someone fix the mailing list so the reply/reply all, goes to the ML email directly, thx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070118/a086b4a8/attachment.html From jeff at taupro.com Sat Jan 20 05:00:22 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:00:22 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] Checking In with the Community... In-Reply-To: References: <45AF92FB.2010208@taupro.com> Message-ID: <45B193D6.9060900@taupro.com> David Beazley wrote: >> > This might be a dumb question, but what is the procedure for signing up > or participating on one of these papers? Do we just edit the wiki? Yes. I've gone ahead and added your name and a link to a blank wiki page for notes or outline. > FYI, I would like to be involved with the "The Speedy Python" task. Thanks for stepping forward! -Jeff From tennessee at tennessee.id.au Mon Jan 22 01:14:06 2007 From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:14:06 +1100 Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? Message-ID: <43c8685c0701211614r19329b66u9a1f55a4d059b82f@mail.gmail.com> I had a thought... One way to help spread Python would be to have a strong presence of Python developers in various online networks. One that springs to mind is LinkedIn, a job related social networking site. If we could encourage Python developers to start adding eachother to their LinkedIn network, then we shoud be able to create a well-connected developer network with business and industry contacts. This should benefit everyone -- both people looking for Python developers, and also people looking for work. Comments? Cheers, -T -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070122/4b5d4e57/attachment.htm From grig at gheorghiu.net Mon Jan 22 02:52:40 2007 From: grig at gheorghiu.net (Grig Gheorghiu) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:52:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0701211614r19329b66u9a1f55a4d059b82f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <618730.50376.qm@web54506.mail.yahoo.com> Good idea. I'm on LinkedIn already (search for Grig Gheorghiu). I'm OK with being a hub for Python developers for now, to get things started :-) Grig --- Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > I had a thought... > > One way to help spread Python would be to have a strong presence of > Python > developers in various online networks. One that springs to mind is > LinkedIn, > a job related social networking site. > > If we could encourage Python developers to start adding eachother to > their > LinkedIn network, then we shoud be able to create a well-connected > developer > network with business and industry contacts. This should benefit > everyone -- > both people looking for Python developers, and also people looking > for work. > > Comments? > > Cheers, > -T > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > From tennessee at tennessee.id.au Mon Jan 22 03:01:35 2007 From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:01:35 +1100 Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? In-Reply-To: <618730.50376.qm@web54506.mail.yahoo.com> References: <43c8685c0701211614r19329b66u9a1f55a4d059b82f@mail.gmail.com> <618730.50376.qm@web54506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43c8685c0701211801qbe639a8n3baf5a8a0616caaf@mail.gmail.com> Cool. Well, I've invited you to my contacts. Let's see who else comes knocking... Cheers, -T On 1/22/07, Grig Gheorghiu wrote: > > Good idea. I'm on LinkedIn already (search for Grig Gheorghiu). I'm OK > with being a hub for Python developers for now, to get things started > :-) > > Grig > > --- Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > > > I had a thought... > > > > One way to help spread Python would be to have a strong presence of > > Python > > developers in various online networks. One that springs to mind is > > LinkedIn, > > a job related social networking site. > > > > If we could encourage Python developers to start adding eachother to > > their > > LinkedIn network, then we shoud be able to create a well-connected > > developer > > network with business and industry contacts. This should benefit > > everyone -- > > both people looking for Python developers, and also people looking > > for work. > > > > Comments? > > > > Cheers, > > -T > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocacy mailing list > > Advocacy at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070122/001eac4e/attachment.htm From amk at amk.ca Mon Jan 22 18:59:50 2007 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:59:50 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0701211614r19329b66u9a1f55a4d059b82f@mail.gmail.com> References: <43c8685c0701211614r19329b66u9a1f55a4d059b82f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070122175950.GA13233@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, Jan 22, 2007 at 11:14:06AM +1100, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > One way to help spread Python would be to have a strong presence of Python > developers in various online networks. One that springs to mind is LinkedIn, > a job related social networking site. Good idea! LinkedIn does seem to be the most professionally-used social service; Orkut and MySpace seem to be less serious. Two good posts from Guy Kawasaki about LinkedIn: 10 Ways to Use LinkedIn http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2007/01/ten_ways_to_use.html Profile Extreme Makeover http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2007/01/linkedin_profil.html One thing I learned: having a recommendation or two means you show up higher in the list of search results, and have been trying to write recommendations for colleagues as a result. (This does mean only accepting connections from people you *can* offer an opinion on, and not people who are just vague acquaintances.) --amk From grig at gheorghiu.net Tue Jan 23 17:11:24 2007 From: grig at gheorghiu.net (Grig Gheorghiu) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:11:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0701211614r19329b66u9a1f55a4d059b82f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <389072.20722.qm@web54514.mail.yahoo.com> I created a Wiki page with the names of the people who contacted me so far on LinkedIn: http://wiki.python.org/moin/LinkedInPythonNetwork Feel free to add your name so that people can start sending you LinkedIn invitation. Let the meshing begin :-) Grig --- Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > I had a thought... > > One way to help spread Python would be to have a strong presence of > Python > developers in various online networks. One that springs to mind is > LinkedIn, > a job related social networking site. > > If we could encourage Python developers to start adding eachother to > their > LinkedIn network, then we shoud be able to create a well-connected > developer > network with business and industry contacts. This should benefit > everyone -- > both people looking for Python developers, and also people looking > for work. > > Comments? > > Cheers, > -T > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > From alvinwang at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 20:48:01 2007 From: alvinwang at gmail.com (Alvin Wang) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:48:01 -0800 Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? In-Reply-To: <389072.20722.qm@web54514.mail.yahoo.com> References: <43c8685c0701211614r19329b66u9a1f55a4d059b82f@mail.gmail.com> <389072.20722.qm@web54514.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77d044440701231148v34348d74haa98d62e16677db0@mail.gmail.com> I would link to one person that allows people to see their contacts but I would not want people to madly invite me. By adding strangers to your list, you encourage spam mail from other people that want to connect to strangers. The proper way to do use LinkedIn for this is to create a LinkedIn Group. http://www.linkedin.com/static?key=groups_faq That way all members of the group will have a nice python Foundation logo at the bottom. We can search each others contacts. It is easier since you don't need to invite potentially hundreds of people. It is also FREE. Alvin On 1/23/07, Grig Gheorghiu wrote: > > I created a Wiki page with the names of the people who contacted me so > far on LinkedIn: > > http://wiki.python.org/moin/LinkedInPythonNetwork > > Feel free to add your name so that people can start sending you > LinkedIn invitation. > > Let the meshing begin :-) > > Grig > > --- Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > > > I had a thought... > > > > One way to help spread Python would be to have a strong presence of > > Python > > developers in various online networks. One that springs to mind is > > LinkedIn, > > a job related social networking site. > > > > If we could encourage Python developers to start adding eachother to > > their > > LinkedIn network, then we shoud be able to create a well-connected > > developer > > network with business and industry contacts. This should benefit > > everyone -- > > both people looking for Python developers, and also people looking > > for work. > > > > Comments? > > > > Cheers, > > -T > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocacy mailing list > > Advocacy at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > -- Alvin Wang -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070123/e3fb55fd/attachment.html From grig at gheorghiu.net Tue Jan 23 20:53:51 2007 From: grig at gheorghiu.net (Grig Gheorghiu) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:53:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? In-Reply-To: <77d044440701231148v34348d74haa98d62e16677db0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070123195351.5558.qmail@web54515.mail.yahoo.com> A LinkedIn Group is a very good idea I think. Didn't know about it. Maybe Tennessee can start a Python group, since he had the idea in the first place. Grig --- Alvin Wang wrote: > I would link to one person that allows people to see their contacts > but I > would not want people to madly invite me. By adding strangers to > your list, > you encourage spam mail from other people that want to connect to > strangers. The proper way to do use LinkedIn for this is to create a > LinkedIn Group. > > http://www.linkedin.com/static?key=groups_faq > > That way all members of the group will have a nice python Foundation > logo at > the bottom. We can search each others contacts. It is easier since > you > don't need to invite potentially hundreds of people. It is also > FREE. > > Alvin > > On 1/23/07, Grig Gheorghiu wrote: > > > > I created a Wiki page with the names of the people who contacted me > so > > far on LinkedIn: > > > > http://wiki.python.org/moin/LinkedInPythonNetwork > > > > Feel free to add your name so that people can start sending you > > LinkedIn invitation. > > > > Let the meshing begin :-) > > > > Grig > > > > --- Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > > > > > I had a thought... > > > > > > One way to help spread Python would be to have a strong presence > of > > > Python > > > developers in various online networks. One that springs to mind > is > > > LinkedIn, > > > a job related social networking site. > > > > > > If we could encourage Python developers to start adding eachother > to > > > their > > > LinkedIn network, then we shoud be able to create a > well-connected > > > developer > > > network with business and industry contacts. This should benefit > > > everyone -- > > > both people looking for Python developers, and also people > looking > > > for work. > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > -T > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Advocacy mailing list > > > Advocacy at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocacy mailing list > > Advocacy at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > > > > > -- > Alvin Wang > From tennessee at tennessee.id.au Wed Jan 24 01:32:54 2007 From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:32:54 +1100 Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? In-Reply-To: <20070123195351.5558.qmail@web54515.mail.yahoo.com> References: <77d044440701231148v34348d74haa98d62e16677db0@mail.gmail.com> <20070123195351.5558.qmail@web54515.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43c8685c0701231632y24bb2e01h3c92116c9b7198fb@mail.gmail.com> http://www.linkedin.com/static?key=groups_guidelines Looks like it would be better coming from someone in the PSF. Maybe too much trouble, I don't know. For now, maybe encouraging Python developers to connect to eachother, through people that they know such as SIGs, PUGs and other relationships? Cheers, -T On 1/24/07, Grig Gheorghiu wrote: > > A LinkedIn Group is a very good idea I think. Didn't know about it. > Maybe Tennessee can start a Python group, since he had the idea in the > first place. > > Grig > > --- Alvin Wang wrote: > > > I would link to one person that allows people to see their contacts > > but I > > would not want people to madly invite me. By adding strangers to > > your list, > > you encourage spam mail from other people that want to connect to > > strangers. The proper way to do use LinkedIn for this is to create a > > LinkedIn Group. > > > > http://www.linkedin.com/static?key=groups_faq > > > > That way all members of the group will have a nice python Foundation > > logo at > > the bottom. We can search each others contacts. It is easier since > > you > > don't need to invite potentially hundreds of people. It is also > > FREE. > > > > Alvin > > > > On 1/23/07, Grig Gheorghiu wrote: > > > > > > I created a Wiki page with the names of the people who contacted me > > so > > > far on LinkedIn: > > > > > > http://wiki.python.org/moin/LinkedInPythonNetwork > > > > > > Feel free to add your name so that people can start sending you > > > LinkedIn invitation. > > > > > > Let the meshing begin :-) > > > > > > Grig > > > > > > --- Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > > > > > > > I had a thought... > > > > > > > > One way to help spread Python would be to have a strong presence > > of > > > > Python > > > > developers in various online networks. One that springs to mind > > is > > > > LinkedIn, > > > > a job related social networking site. > > > > > > > > If we could encourage Python developers to start adding eachother > > to > > > > their > > > > LinkedIn network, then we shoud be able to create a > > well-connected > > > > developer > > > > network with business and industry contacts. This should benefit > > > > everyone -- > > > > both people looking for Python developers, and also people > > looking > > > > for work. > > > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > -T > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Advocacy mailing list > > > > Advocacy at python.org > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Advocacy mailing list > > > Advocacy at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Alvin Wang > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070124/6ccdae05/attachment.html From amk at amk.ca Wed Jan 24 14:48:23 2007 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:48:23 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0701231632y24bb2e01h3c92116c9b7198fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <77d044440701231148v34348d74haa98d62e16677db0@mail.gmail.com> <20070123195351.5558.qmail@web54515.mail.yahoo.com> <43c8685c0701231632y24bb2e01h3c92116c9b7198fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070124134823.GA5733@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 11:32:54AM +1100, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > http://www.linkedin.com/static?key=groups_guidelines > > Looks like it would be better coming from someone in the PSF. Maybe too much > trouble, I don't know. For now, maybe encouraging Python developers to > connect to eachother, through people that they know such as SIGs, PUGs and > other relationships? The group feature looks very half-baked -- to join a group you need to send an e-mail to someone at LinkedIn (see http://www.linkedin.com/static?key=groups_faq), and someone then has to administer the group and allow or deny add requests. I suggest forgetting about the group feature for now, and just linking directly to people you know. --amk From alvinwang at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 19:45:56 2007 From: alvinwang at gmail.com (Alvin Wang) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:45:56 -0800 Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? In-Reply-To: <20070124134823.GA5733@localhost.localdomain> References: <77d044440701231148v34348d74haa98d62e16677db0@mail.gmail.com> <20070123195351.5558.qmail@web54515.mail.yahoo.com> <43c8685c0701231632y24bb2e01h3c92116c9b7198fb@mail.gmail.com> <20070124134823.GA5733@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <77d044440701241045l244c571byde501a5e4a8065c6@mail.gmail.com> On 1/24/07, A.M. Kuchling wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 11:32:54AM +1100, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > > http://www.linkedin.com/static?key=groups_guidelines > > > > Looks like it would be better coming from someone in the PSF. Maybe too > much > > trouble, I don't know. For now, maybe encouraging Python developers to > > connect to eachother, through people that they know such as SIGs, PUGs > and > > other relationships? > > The group feature looks very half-baked -- to join a group you need to > send an e-mail to someone at LinkedIn (see > http://www.linkedin.com/static?key=groups_faq), and someone then has > to administer the group and allow or deny add requests. I suggest > forgetting about the group feature for now, and just linking directly > to people you know. > > --amk > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > I have never administered a group but it seemed to work quite well for Forbes. They send me an invitation via email and it was automatic. Alvin -- Alvin Wang -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070124/4141bae8/attachment.htm From grig at gheorghiu.net Sat Jan 27 02:31:01 2007 From: grig at gheorghiu.net (Grig Gheorghiu) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:31:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [python-advocacy] LinkedIn Python Developers? In-Reply-To: <20070124134823.GA5733@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <455773.48544.qm@web54505.mail.yahoo.com> I added more people to my LinkedIn network today. I managed to find a way to list all the people in my network (either directly connected to me, or connected to people connected to me) that list python in their profiles: http://www.linkedin.com/search?search=&sik=1169767238139&keywords=python&rd=in&sortCriteria=3&split_page=1 (you need to be logged in to be able to view the list). Grig --- "A.M. Kuchling" wrote: > On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 11:32:54AM +1100, Tennessee Leeuwenburg > wrote: > > http://www.linkedin.com/static?key=groups_guidelines > > > > Looks like it would be better coming from someone in the PSF. Maybe > too much > > trouble, I don't know. For now, maybe encouraging Python developers > to > > connect to eachother, through people that they know such as SIGs, > PUGs and > > other relationships? > > The group feature looks very half-baked -- to join a group you need > to > send an e-mail to someone at LinkedIn (see > http://www.linkedin.com/static?key=groups_faq), and someone then has > to administer the group and allow or deny add requests. I suggest > forgetting about the group feature for now, and just linking directly > to people you know. > > --amk > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy >