From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 17:17:22 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (chris.mcavoy at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 08:17:22 -0800
Subject: [python-advocacy] python-advocacy-user-group-relations (Google Docs
	& Spreadsheets)
Message-ID: <163600ce07042ac7f781687001@gmail.com>

I've shared a document with you called "python-advocacy-user-group-relations":
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p1RZODCggDcrB2mjFvapsIQ&inv=advocacy at python.org

It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs & Spreadsheets. To open this document, just click the link above.

Hi Python Advocates!

This is a spreadsheet with all the emails I gathered at the python
advocacy BOF.

Just a first step folks, more communication to come.

Chris McAvoy
chris.mcavoy at gmail.com

---
Note: You'll need to sign into Google with this email address. To use a different email address, just reply to this message and ask me to invite your other one.
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From grig at gheorghiu.net  Sat Mar  3 18:22:41 2007
From: grig at gheorghiu.net (Grig Gheorghiu)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 09:22:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [python-advocacy] python-advocacy-user-group-relations (Google
	Docs & Spreadsheets)
In-Reply-To: <163600ce07042ac7f781687001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <703811.9267.qm@web54506.mail.yahoo.com>

--- chris.mcavoy at gmail.com wrote:

> I've shared a document with you called
> "python-advocacy-user-group-relations":
>
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p1RZODCggDcrB2mjFvapsIQ&inv=advocacy at python.org

Chris -- since you sent the email to advocacy at python.org, only a user
with that ID will be able to see the doc. Unless we create a user with
a known shared password, that's not going to work.

Grig


From amk at amk.ca  Tue Mar  6 19:04:08 2007
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:04:08 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Python representation at Penguin Day DC
Message-ID: <20070306180408.GA13658@localhost.localdomain>

This is a 1-day unconference in the Washington DC area.  Some
Plone/Zope people will be there.  I'm willing to go as a Python/PSF
person; what needs to be done in preparation?

The current agenda is at 
<http://penguinday.aspirationtech.org/index.php/Penguin_Day_Agenda>.

The PSF would probably fit best into the Speedgeeking session, which
is basically lightning talks run in parallel. Each speaker gives the
lightning talk 10 times in a 50-minute session, and the audience is
split up into small groups and rotates between all the lightning
talks.

Perhaps I could do a brief 2-minute feature-oriented overview of
Python, a brief discussion of the PSF and PyCon, and pointers to the
other Python-related projects at the Penguin Day.

--amk

From goodger at python.org  Wed Mar  7 23:08:56 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:08:56 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] awards (was Re: Pycon)
Message-ID: <4335d2c40703071408s7e993a10h186f9b6addaf0a02@mail.gmail.com>

Just an update: The PSF Directors will discuss awards at the Board
meeting on Monday.  We'll discuss Alvin's ideas, and anything people
come up with in the meantime.  Volunteers to manage and help with this
would be most welcome.

I'm also working on figuring out what to do about the Frank Willison
Award for OSCON.

David Goodger, PSF Secretary

[Context provided for PSF Board members who haven't seen it yet:]

On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:28 AM, DeanG wrote:
> One outlet of Person of the Year is the O'Reilly Frank Willison
> Award given at OSCON.
>
> In the last few years it's gotten less attention and could use an
> Advocacy or PSF contact person.

On 2/27/07, Stephan Deibel <sdeibel at wingware.com > wrote:
> Yes, although it's at OSCON and not PyCon so would be good to have
> something at PyCon if someone is willing to take the lead on this.
> Feel free to contact me to arrange some sort of prizes paid for by
> the PSF.
>
> BTW, at PyCon I found out that O'Reilly apparently thinks the
> Willison Award is supposed to be a PSF thing, and apparently last
> year's recipient never got any sort of paper or plaque or anything.
> This may be confusion from the many changes of who is the main
> Python contact at O'Reilly.  I've never been to OSCON so don't know
> how it was presented in the past.  Clearly needs to be fixed --
> don't use that as a model for how any PyCon-time award is done! ;-)
>
> In fact if someone wants to manage both awards, that would be great.
> This is one of those items that the PSF board hasn't had time to do
> a good job with and each of the last years it's been a last minute
> thing.

On 2/27/07, Alvin Wang <alvinwang at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here are my thoughts on Pycon awards.  I would be willing to put
> some work into it if nobody more qualified steps forward.
>
> 1) Decide on a manageable set of annual awards say <10.  Suggestions
> from community by 8/31
> - Python book of the year - should have word python on the cover -
>   not required
> - Python article of the year - magazine web or print not a blog
>   posting
> - Python Evangelist of the year
> - Python - closed source Product of the year
> - Python open source project of the year
>  - Python - new project of the year
>  - Python Groundbreaker of the year
> - Etc.
>
> 2) Nomination period - say 12/15->1/15
>
> 3) Voting period - say 1/16->2/15
>
> 4) Awards - whenever Pycon is

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From surekap at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 01:29:04 2007
From: surekap at gmail.com (Prateek Sureka)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 05:59:04 +0530
Subject: [python-advocacy] IIT Campus Program
Message-ID: <4027321E-3AB8-431F-80AB-8BEA33BE0F66@gmail.com>

Hi guys,

I met some of you at Pycon this year.
My organization, Brainwave, is under discussions with some professors  
from IIT Delhi and IIT Calcutta on running a campus research program  
on Python. The general format is that of a project where we state the  
guidelines and deliverables.

I was wondering if there was any precedence for such activities where  
we could draw on the expertise of fellow members. Also, if there are  
any suggestions for guidelines, research projects etc. we would love  
to hear them.

thanks,

Prateek Sureka
http://www.brainwavelive.com


From lac at openend.se  Thu Mar  8 07:41:18 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 07:41:18 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] IIT Campus Program
In-Reply-To: Message from Prateek Sureka <surekap@gmail.com> of "Thu,
	08 Mar 2007 05:59:04 +0530."
	<4027321E-3AB8-431F-80AB-8BEA33BE0F66@gmail.com> 
References: <4027321E-3AB8-431F-80AB-8BEA33BE0F66@gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <200703080641.l286fI5M011125@theraft.openend.se>

In a message of Thu, 08 Mar 2007 05:59:04 +0530, Prateek Sureka writes:
>Hi guys,
>
>I met some of you at Pycon this year.
>My organization, Brainwave, is under discussions with some professors  
>from IIT Delhi and IIT Calcutta on running a campus research program  
>on Python. The general format is that of a project where we state the  
>guidelines and deliverables.
>
>I was wondering if there was any precedence for such activities where  
>we could draw on the expertise of fellow members. Also, if there are  
>any suggestions for guidelines, research projects etc. we would love  
>to hear them.
>
>thanks,
>
>Prateek Sureka
>http://www.brainwavelive.com

PyPy is a full-fledged Sixth Framework Research Program.
see: http://pypy.org/ .  Mailing list at pypy-dev at codespeak.net if you
want to discuss our experiences with us -- though our deliverables are
due the end of this month, so you might get more lengthy responses in
a month ....

Laura Creighton

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Mar  8 16:38:07 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 07:38:07 -0800
Subject: [python-advocacy] IIT Campus Program
In-Reply-To: <4027321E-3AB8-431F-80AB-8BEA33BE0F66@gmail.com>
References: <4027321E-3AB8-431F-80AB-8BEA33BE0F66@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070308153807.GA6608@panix.com>

[removing python-dev]

On Thu, Mar 08, 2007, Prateek Sureka wrote:
>
> My organization, Brainwave, is under discussions with some professors  
> from IIT Delhi and IIT Calcutta on running a campus research program  
> on Python. The general format is that of a project where we state the  
> guidelines and deliverables.
> 
> I was wondering if there was any precedence for such activities where  
> we could draw on the expertise of fellow members. Also, if there are  
> any suggestions for guidelines, research projects etc. we would love  
> to hear them.

You should also look into the history of Google's Summer of Code.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 16:41:09 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:41:09 -0600
Subject: [python-advocacy] User Groups
Message-ID: <3096c19d0703080741u2240b3aes73d4a8808dd49187@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

Remember me from the Advocacy BoF?  Remember how I agreed to do all
that stuff?  I'm still going to do it.  I promise.  I'll send some
stuff out this weekend.

Just a quick update.

Chris

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Thu Mar  8 23:34:24 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:34:24 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Python representation at Penguin Day DC
In-Reply-To: <20070306180408.GA13658@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20070306180408.GA13658@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <45F08F70.2090106@wingware.com>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> This is a 1-day unconference in the Washington DC area.  Some
> Plone/Zope people will be there.  I'm willing to go as a Python/PSF
> person; what needs to be done in preparation?
> 
> The current agenda is at 
> <http://penguinday.aspirationtech.org/index.php/Penguin_Day_Agenda>.
> 
> The PSF would probably fit best into the Speedgeeking session, which
> is basically lightning talks run in parallel. Each speaker gives the
> lightning talk 10 times in a 50-minute session, and the audience is
> split up into small groups and rotates between all the lightning
> talks.
> 
> Perhaps I could do a brief 2-minute feature-oriented overview of
> Python, a brief discussion of the PSF and PyCon, and pointers to the
> other Python-related projects at the Penguin Day.

Nobody has answered and I don't have anything very useful to say, but 
FWIW, _thank you_ for being willing to do this!

I would think this would be a good place to distribute some flyers. 
Jeff had prepared some a while back, although I don't know if they're 
targeted at the same audience.

- Stephan

From jeff at taupro.com  Fri Mar  9 13:05:18 2007
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 06:05:18 -0600
Subject: [python-advocacy] A Pythonic Way to Measure and Improve Your
	Programming Skills?
Message-ID: <45F14D7E.3060707@taupro.com>

(inspired by a thread on the psf-members list about Python certification)

Those who know me know I am no fan of the programmer certification industry 
and I agree that your typical certificate arrangement, e.g. to show HR to get 
that box checked in your candidate file, so a company can skip responsibility 
in vetting a candidate, is un-Pythonic.  However, I do think we need a good 
answer to the engineering manager or team leader who asks, "how do I know this 
person knows Python?", and to the candidate who thinks, "I believe I'm good at 
Python but am I as good as I think?".

The first case primarily cares about the reputation of the testing facility 
within the industry, so that if they choose wrong, they are absolved of blame. 
The latter two are often honestly looking for some guidance on bringing good 
people in-house or to step-up their programming skills.

As Python use spreads, it becomes more important for the community to provide 
benchmarks for measuring skill levels, to avoid Python being relegated to the, 
respectfully, lightweight programmer category e.g. PHP or perhaps Ruby on 
Rails (not Ruby the language).

Prior to PyCon I'd been thinking about some kind of campaign, service or 
documents, that I call "So you think you know Python...".  My initial idea was 
for use by Python programmers, who are honest with themselves, to have a way 
to measure their knowledge.  We all run into or are programmers who think they 
are hot-stuff, especially those of us who work solo as many in our community 
do, but when put side-by-side against others, fall a bit short.  PyCon can 
have that effect, with so many smart people in a small area. ;-) But the 
objective isn't to denegrate these programmers but to provide a measuring 
stick, along with an educational roadmap, so they can make wise choices.

The rapid growth in use of Python is going to lead to a shortage in Python 
programmers, unless we manage the supply side as well.  The manager wanting to 
find and hire good Python programmers is not an adversary seeking to use 
certificates to commoditize our community, but an ally in helping us get 
industry respect and career opportunities using our favorite language.  We 
need to behind what he asks for to see what he needs.

I've been carefully watching Crunchy, about which a talk was given at PyCon, 
for writing tutorials that, with its "doctests" feature, could be used to 
propose tests that pass and require a candidate to write an acceptable 
program.  This week I was prototyping an "rst2crunchy" tool, that let's you 
write Crunchy scripts in reStructured Text, rather than HTML.  Crunchy needs 
more features, such as a user login facility and measurement facilities to 
store test submissions for review by experienced Python programmers after they 
pass.  From what I hear on the edu-sig list, Andr? Roberge and Johannes 
Woolard are tackling these but could use more help.  Johannes in particular 
was a student for Google's Summer of Code 2006 and I believe is looking for 
sponsorship for 2007.

But perhaps Crunchy is not the ready answer in this case, so I'm looking for 
suggestions.

With regard to how a manager can know a person is good at Python, besides 
looking at their portfolio of work, we could stake out conceptual areas of the 
language or libraries about which a programmer should be conversant.  This 
might be a document, with example questions but carefully focused on what lies 
behind those questions, so an interviewer can come up with his own questions 
and avoid rote memorization.  This conceptual map could also eventually form 
the basis of advanced-placement in schools that goes beyond those terrible 
Visual BASIC test questions.  And for the Python programmer who wonders if his 
knowledge is broad enough and wants to improve him or herself, the conceptual 
map could have links/recommendations to training materials on specific topics.

Join me on the advocacy list and let's discuss this further.

You can join at:
   http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy

Jeff Rush
Python Advocacy Coordinator

From carl at personnelware.com  Fri Mar  9 19:21:13 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 12:21:13 -0600
Subject: [python-advocacy] what made you take py seriously?
Message-ID: <45F1A599.7060104@personnelware.com>

hi List,

Forgive me if the ideas I think are shiny and new has been covered before.  and 
also if I push the limits of advocacy - much of my thoughts are based on "how 
can we draw more people to PyCon08"

my resume: My computer programming dates back to 1980 - basic, assembly, pascal. 
  got my first programming job around 90.  did some C, pascal, and dBase/VFP. 
(VFP is very similar to Py)  been doing mostly VFP since 95.

April 2004 I got my first taste of Python when I wrote these little apps that 
are called from procmail: SpamIAm.py and  AmISpam.py

The first is run on a spam trap account and stores subjects to a MySql table, 
the 2nd is run on my normal account and flags messages who's subjects match 
(basically.)

I was recommended Python for this by some old friends, and they spoon fed me 
parts of it.  I remember these lines:

     message = email.message_from_string(stdin)
     fromHeader = message["From"]

and thinking, "that's pretty cool"  but somehow the magnitude of coolness eluded 
me. I did a few other things here and there, but never really bothering to 
"learn python" in any sort of fashion.

It wasn't until August 06 I tried to work with some python code that was based 
on twisted and used generators that I decided I needed to learn the basics.  So 
I started reading O'Reilly Learning Python and http://diveintopython.org.  It 
took me about 3 months to get though the book and 1/2 the site.  But within the 
first few weeks, I was starting to see the beauty that is Python.  When I got a 
grip on the scope of the modules available, both standard and just out there, I 
was sold.

So the sad thing is, it took me running into something 'too hard' for me to 
learn what I needed to then actually respect Python.  And then it wasn't the 
'hard stuff' that turned me on, it was how 'nice and easy' things really are. 
(the problems twisted and generators solve are hard; I am not suggesting the 
solutions could have been done any better.)

I wonder how many others have a similar story, and if there isn't something that 
can be done about this.

Or even if the story is different, it might shed light on reaching the part of 
people that needs to be reached.

Carl Karsten

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Fri Mar  9 23:28:43 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:28:43 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] what made you take py seriously?
In-Reply-To: <45F1A599.7060104@personnelware.com>
References: <45F1A599.7060104@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <45F1DF9B.4070906@wingware.com>

For me it was in 1998 when playing with Python to prototype a GUI that 
was taking forever to develop in C++.  For both the C++ work and Python 
work, it was GTK as the GUI toolkit.  I was blown away with how fast I 
got a GUI together with Python, and quickly realized that it didn't have 
to be a prototype but could be the real app.

I think it's always something like this -- Python provides a solution 
that fills a need and draws someone in far enough to wow them.  Then it 
gets used for a lot more than just the original task.

I recognize the significant barrier that exists before someone is 
willing to try something new, since I also long resisted trying Python. 
  The things that help get people past that resistance are important to 
focus on.  Sometimes that's achieved by Python masquerading as a 
complementary/new tool (not a replacement) for something like 
prototyping or testing, and sometimes it's just a strong recommendation 
from someone you trust that makes the difference.  Or, as in my case, 
both together.

The peer contact thing is really the most important.  After that, next 
most useful is a collection of "Doing X with Python" docs that tell 
people how to solve their problem with Python, and wow them with how 
easy and elegant it is.  Then articles like the Python Success Stories 
and other high-level intro/marketing type content that the programmer 
can then use to convince their boss to accept the technology.

- Stephan

From brad at allendev.com  Sat Mar 10 16:26:26 2007
From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:26:26 -0600
Subject: [python-advocacy] what made you take py seriously?
In-Reply-To: <45F1A599.7060104@personnelware.com>
References: <45F1A599.7060104@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <a06230902c217ce295056@[192.168.1.242]>

At 12:21 PM -0600 3/9/07, Carl Karsten wrote:
>So the sad thing is, it took me running into something 'too hard' for me to
>learn what I needed to then actually respect Python.  And then it wasn't the
>'hard stuff' that turned me on, it was how 'nice and easy' things really are.
>(the problems twisted and generators solve are hard; I am not suggesting the
>solutions could have been done any better.)

Hey, that's a good testamonial. Have you considered posting that to a 
blog? If you do, I will link to it from digg.com and see if anybody 
else notices it.

I wonder if there is a list of links to Python testamonials 
somewhere. This kind of posting is not as high profile as what might 
go in the success stories, or the "what they are saying" page at 
Python.org.  It would be useful to build a collection of such of 
links for use by Python advocates...maybe this is the kind of thing 
that could go on advocacy.python.org.

From brad at allendev.com  Sat Mar 10 17:01:20 2007
From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:01:20 -0600
Subject: [python-advocacy] A Pythonic Way to Measure and Improve Your
 Programming Skills?
In-Reply-To: <45F14D7E.3060707@taupro.com>
References: <45F14D7E.3060707@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <a06230908c2187f182731@[192.168.1.242]>

At 6:05 AM -0600 3/9/07, Jeff Rush wrote:
>Prior to PyCon I'd been thinking about some kind of campaign, service or
>documents, that I call "So you think you know Python...".  My initial idea was
>for use by Python programmers, who are honest with themselves, to have a way
>to measure their knowledge.

A interactive Python skills test could be useful, fun, and popular, 
if designed well.
There are a lot of Python programmers who are serious about honing 
their skills,
and enjoy doing so.

Building a good interactive test is a big project; I hope we can get community
buy-in and participation for this idea. I'll volunteer to be a tester, and to
help with brainstorming ideas for content.

At 6:05 AM -0600 3/9/07, Jeff Rush wrote:
>I've been carefully watching Crunchy, about which a talk was given at PyCon,
>for writing tutorials that, with its "doctests" feature, could be used to
>propose tests that pass and require a candidate to write an acceptable
>program.

Crunchy has great possibilities, especially if we can find a good way to use
it on the web instead of requiring a download to run locally. However,
there is an obvious security problem with giving web users access to a Python
interpreter on the web server.

When I discussed this problem with Michael Bernstein at PyCon he suggested
the idea of creating a "chroot jail" for each web session which could run
the Python interpreter in a secure sandbox. That might be easier than giving
each session a whole virtual server.

Are there any experienced sysadmins reading this who know of a practical way
solve this problem so we can have Crunchy tutorials on the web?


From brad at allendev.com  Sat Mar 10 18:54:00 2007
From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:54:00 -0600
Subject: [python-advocacy] A Pythonic Way to Measure and Improve Your
 Programming Skills?
In-Reply-To: <1173546636.14230.57.camel@workshop>
References: <45F14D7E.3060707@taupro.com>	
	<a06230908c2187f182731@[192.168.1.242]>
	<1173546636.14230.57.camel@workshop>
Message-ID: <a0623090cc2189ef69f28@[192.168.1.242]>

At 9:10 AM -0800 3/10/07, Michael Bernstein wrote:
>On Sat, 2007-03-10 at 10:01 -0600, Brad Allen wrote:
>
>>  When I discussed this problem with Michael Bernstein at PyCon he suggested
>>  the idea of creating a "chroot jail" for each web session which could run
>>  the Python interpreter in a secure sandbox. That might be easier than giving
>>  each session a whole virtual server.
>
>Note that this wasn't an original idea of mine, I got it from brief
>mentions associated with two existing interactive python-in-a-web-page
>implementations:
>
>         Try Python: http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/try_python/
>
>         TryPy: http://trac.pocoo.org/wiki/TryPy
>

Cool! The first link appears to work with Firefox and provides a real example
of using a Python interactive prompt via a non-local web interface.
Interestingly, it doesn't seem to use Crunchy, but instead uses TryPy.

Apparently you can't define classes or functions with TryPy, but I recall you
can using Crunchy. This is important for creating tutorials in which you
ask the student to define a class or function to solve a problem.

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Mon Mar 12 00:37:22 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:37:22 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] User Group Support
Message-ID: <3096c19d0703111637k17d60c08sa06ecac00961bcf4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

As promised, here's the list of priorities we came up with at the
Advocacy BoF in Dallas:

priorities
------------
1) ability to find usergroups, the user group listing on the wiki is
somewhat inaccurate.  We need to audit it.
2) psf offerings / kit for new groups
3) comp.lang.local ->  keep it on advocacy?  organizer list.  A
targeted mailing list for local user group organizers.

I set up a google group for the user group "sig" at
http://groups.google.com/group/python-user-group.  I invited the
handful of people that seemed interested in the project, but as of yet
the list has been quiet.

In my view, our next step is to draft an email that can be sent to the
Python lang list and the Python announce list, asking for user groups
to make themselves known.  Once we have a registry going, we can start
communicating with the user groups.

I don't want to get bogged down painting the shed, but we might be
able to pull together a web registration form, very similar to what
O'Reilly has for new user groups.

Chris

From carl at personnelware.com  Mon Mar 12 03:00:58 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 21:00:58 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] what made you take py seriously?
In-Reply-To: <a06230902c217ce295056@[192.168.1.242]>
References: <45F1A599.7060104@personnelware.com>
	<a06230902c217ce295056@[192.168.1.242]>
Message-ID: <45F4B45A.2040604@personnelware.com>

Brad Allen wrote:
 > At 12:21 PM -0600 3/9/07, Carl Karsten wrote:
 >> So the sad thing is, it took me running into something 'too hard' for
 >> me to
 >> learn what I needed to then actually respect Python.  And then it
 >> wasn't the
 >> 'hard stuff' that turned me on, it was how 'nice and easy' things
 >> really are.
 >> (the problems twisted and generators solve are hard; I am not
 >> suggesting the
 >> solutions could have been done any better.)
 >
 > Hey, that's a good testamonial. Have you considered posting that to a
 > blog? If you do, I will link to it from digg.com and see if anybody else
 > notices it.
 >
 > I wonder if there is a list of links to Python testamonials somewhere.
 > This kind of posting is not as high profile as what might go in the
 > success stories, or the "what they are saying" page at Python.org.  It
 > would be useful to build a collection of such of links for use by Python
 > advocates...maybe this is the kind of thing that could go on
 > advocacy.python.org.
 >
 >

I don't have any blog going right now.  I could create one just to host this 
post, but that doesn't seem like a good idea.  If there is a place to collect 
things, feel free to cut/paste it or point me to it.

I think it is worth poling people to see what things had to be in place to make 
the light turn on.  we may see some trends that are low hanging fruit that we 
just didn't know where there.

What if 40% said "I thought it was too slow, but when forced to use it for so 
and so realized that it was much faster than I thought."  My reaction would be 
"we need to start doing something to show how fast py is."  Which would then be 
a new challenge: how do we do that?  But it would be a narrower problem than 
"How do we promote python?"

Carl K

From tennessee at tennessee.id.au  Mon Mar 12 09:10:28 2007
From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 19:10:28 +1100
Subject: [python-advocacy] what made you take py seriously?
In-Reply-To: <45F4B45A.2040604@personnelware.com>
References: <45F1A599.7060104@personnelware.com>
	<a06230902c217ce295056@192.168.1.242>
	<45F4B45A.2040604@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <43c8685c0703120110h6fe2bf02l984e56fa05434df2@mail.gmail.com>

I would also be very happy to publish such things in The Python Papers. We
could try to include one each edition, solicited from the readership.
Perhaps one of the above postings could start things off?

Cheers,
-T

On 3/12/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>
> Brad Allen wrote:
> > At 12:21 PM -0600 3/9/07, Carl Karsten wrote:
> >> So the sad thing is, it took me running into something 'too hard' for
> >> me to
> >> learn what I needed to then actually respect Python.  And then it
> >> wasn't the
> >> 'hard stuff' that turned me on, it was how 'nice and easy' things
> >> really are.
> >> (the problems twisted and generators solve are hard; I am not
> >> suggesting the
> >> solutions could have been done any better.)
> >
> > Hey, that's a good testamonial. Have you considered posting that to a
> > blog? If you do, I will link to it from digg.com and see if anybody else
> > notices it.
> >
> > I wonder if there is a list of links to Python testamonials somewhere.
> > This kind of posting is not as high profile as what might go in the
> > success stories, or the "what they are saying" page at Python.org.  It
> > would be useful to build a collection of such of links for use by Python
> > advocates...maybe this is the kind of thing that could go on
> > advocacy.python.org.
> >
> >
>
> I don't have any blog going right now.  I could create one just to host
> this
> post, but that doesn't seem like a good idea.  If there is a place to
> collect
> things, feel free to cut/paste it or point me to it.
>
> I think it is worth poling people to see what things had to be in place to
> make
> the light turn on.  we may see some trends that are low hanging fruit that
> we
> just didn't know where there.
>
> What if 40% said "I thought it was too slow, but when forced to use it for
> so
> and so realized that it was much faster than I thought."  My reaction
> would be
> "we need to start doing something to show how fast py is."  Which would
> then be
> a new challenge: how do we do that?  But it would be a narrower problem
> than
> "How do we promote python?"
>
> Carl K
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>
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From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Mar 13 19:22:27 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:22:27 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] that guy that decides py or not to py?
Message-ID: <45F6EBE3.9070900@personnelware.com>

I took on python as the result of a personal choice.   I am sure there is a huge 
population of people in that boat.

I think there is a bigger boat: the groups that are lead by a 'manager' (pointy 
hair or otherwise) that is a single person directing a group: "We are going to 
use language X."

That person's choice of X will cascade - his group will learn about X, and each 
member be able to speak about X, and recommend X to other leaders, and the told 
two friends...

What makes 'that person' pick X?

Given there are many of those persons, there are many answers.  (duh.)

I. noise, not data.
   a. no time to make a well thought out decision, just go with the buzz.
   b. no one gets fired for choosing IBM

II. some outside force makes it "the logical thing to do."
   a. we need to enhance Foo, which is written in X,
   b. some of the team knows X

III. first hand knowledge of all the options, and X was the clear winner.
   a.  Suddenly the magic of the spell pulls Fiona away. She's lifted 
      up into the air and she hovers there while the magic works around 
        her.

These are all I can think of in this category.

Where does this fit in:
"I chose supybot because it's written in Python"

Carl K

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Tue Mar 13 21:47:24 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:47:24 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] that guy that decides py or not to py?
In-Reply-To: <45F6EBE3.9070900@personnelware.com>
References: <45F6EBE3.9070900@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <45F70DDC.9020505@wingware.com>

Carl Karsten wrote:
> Where does this fit in:
> "I chose supybot because it's written in Python"

 From an advocacy standpoint, this one is probably irrelevant since the
person making such a choice already prefers Python!

- Stephan

From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Mar 14 19:27:58 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:27:58 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] that guy that decides py or not to py?
In-Reply-To: <45F6EBE3.9070900@personnelware.com>
References: <45F6EBE3.9070900@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <45F83EAE.7020606@personnelware.com>

Carl Karsten wrote:
 > I took on python as the result of a personal choice.   I am sure there is a huge
 > population of people in that boat.
 >
 > I think there is a bigger boat: the groups that are lead by a 'manager' (pointy
 > hair or otherwise) that is a single person directing a group: "We are going to
 > use language X."
 >
 > That person's choice of X will cascade - his group will learn about X, and each
 > member be able to speak about X, and recommend X to other leaders, and the told
 > two friends...
 >
 > What makes 'that person' pick X?
 >
 > Given there are many of those persons, there are many answers.  (duh.)
 >
 > I. noise, not data.
 >    a. no time to make a well thought out decision, just go with the buzz.
 >    b. no one gets fired for choosing IBM
 >
 > II. some outside force makes it "the logical thing to do."
 >    a. we need to enhance Foo, which is written in X,
 >    b. some of the team knows X
 >
 > III. first hand knowledge of all the options, and X was the clear winner.
 >    a.  Suddenly the magic of the spell pulls Fiona away. She's lifted
 >       up into the air and she hovers there while the magic works around
 >         her.
 >
 > These are all I can think of in this category.
 >

friend says:

also, first hand knowledge of "all" options isn't exactly true...I mean  as 
programming goes, there is pretty much no one who knows all  options.  First 
hand knowledge of all known 'available' options,  maybe.  All the options for me 
isn't all the options for you.

   You only do what you know, so the question really is, what breaks you  out of 
the box of doing what you know?  What makes a caterpiller  coccoon?  The beleif 
that something better is out there?  The  knowledge that other caterpillers did 
it and survived?  The fact  that it's what all caterpillers have done for ages? 
  The  acknowledgement that change happens, if you don't change you will die?



From goodmansond at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 21:49:09 2007
From: goodmansond at gmail.com (DeanG)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:49:09 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] User Group Support
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0703111637k17d60c08sa06ecac00961bcf4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3096c19d0703111637k17d60c08sa06ecac00961bcf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5c6a5400703161349h7a196fc4va4650a9e376e206c@mail.gmail.com>

I listened to the audio recap of the Advocacy presentation at Dallas.
Good stuff.
Today I came across Kathy Sierra noting the similar sentiments about
conferences and user groups.
http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2007/03/sxsw_interactiv.html

- Dean

On 3/11/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> As promised, here's the list of priorities we came up with at the
> Advocacy BoF in Dallas:
>
> priorities
> ------------
> 1) ability to find usergroups, the user group listing on the wiki is
> somewhat inaccurate.  We need to audit it.
> 2) psf offerings / kit for new groups
> 3) comp.lang.local ->  keep it on advocacy?  organizer list.  A
> targeted mailing list for local user group organizers.
>
> I set up a google group for the user group "sig" at
> http://groups.google.com/group/python-user-group.  I invited the
> handful of people that seemed interested in the project, but as of yet
> the list has been quiet.
>
> In my view, our next step is to draft an email that can be sent to the
> Python lang list and the Python announce list, asking for user groups
> to make themselves known.  Once we have a registry going, we can start
> communicating with the user groups.
>
> I don't want to get bogged down painting the shed, but we might be
> able to pull together a web registration form, very similar to what
> O'Reilly has for new user groups.
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>

From goodmansond at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 21:51:48 2007
From: goodmansond at gmail.com (DeanG)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:51:48 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
Message-ID: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>

Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!

Is there any interesting in hosting usergroups (or other category)
planets near the official (or unofficial) python planet?

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 21:53:46 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:53:46 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] User Group Support
In-Reply-To: <f5c6a5400703161349h7a196fc4va4650a9e376e206c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3096c19d0703111637k17d60c08sa06ecac00961bcf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5c6a5400703161349h7a196fc4va4650a9e376e206c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0703161353r2ad72c5fl8307c846187a9ad@mail.gmail.com>

Holy cow...this list is almost identical to what we talked about in
the advocacy BoF...great link!:

"""
1) Put together a "How To Start A Local User Group or Club" document.
Include tips on things like finding a space, topic ideas, and getting
speakers. (If anyone has one of these, please let us know!)

2) Offer free materials for the user groups
User group meetings often start or end with prize drawings; give the
user group leaders plenty of swag for the meetings. It'll make the
leaders look good, etc.

3) Treat your user group leaders like royalty
Sun puts JUG (Java User Group) leaders on a pedastal--helping them
promote their groups, giving them special receptions at the annual
JavaOne conference, etc.

4) Instead of a traditional user group, provide guidelines for a Study Group
(Or a related book club.) Collect advice and lessons from other
existing groups. Provide a list of suggested books to read, and
6-months' worth of topic plans. For example, "Month One: read [insert
book related to your domain], and have each attendee discuss the
following key points..."

5) Hold a very low-cost annual weekend conference.
Make it ridiculously easy for people to get there. Find sponsors to
help. Even better if you hold several mini-conferences a year, in
different locations.

6) Encourage users to start a local BarCamp (or other *Camp).
Direct your users to the BarCamp Wiki where they can learn how to do it.

7) Use Meetup.com as a resource!

8) If you already have online user forums, enlist moderators to try to
form an offline meetup.
This is often one of the best places to start.

9) Hold special cocktail receptions/parties for user group leaders at
industry conferences in your domain.

10) Advertise/promote your user group events on your main page!
Remember, passionate users MUST connect with others who share that
passion, so this is not a nice-to-have... it's an essential part of
any product, service, or cause for which people are passionate.
"""

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 22:08:09 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:08:09 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
In-Reply-To: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0703161408q569b130gbce4d5d464c1cf9e@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/16/07, DeanG <goodmansond at gmail.com> wrote:
> Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!

Totally

> Is there any interesting in hosting usergroups (or other category)
> planets near the official (or unofficial) python planet?

We did talk about that a bit at the BoF.  I think it's a great idea.
If we can have each user group identify an RSS feed for official news
and announcements for their group, it could become a good resource.

That said, the first step is identifying all the existing groups, and
deciding a good way to communicate with them.  I'd like to do this on
behalf of python.org.  Any chance I can get an official sounding email
address to start sending stuff to people from?

Is that alright with everyone?

Once we have a good reliable list, we can figure out how to start
communicating new initiatives with them, then start feeding them new
and interesting stuff.

This is exciting stuff folks!  Go Python!

Chris

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Fri Mar 16 23:11:38 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:11:38 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0703161408q569b130gbce4d5d464c1cf9e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703161408q569b130gbce4d5d464c1cf9e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45FB161A.1070208@wingware.com>

Chris McAvoy wrote:
> That said, the first step is identifying all the existing groups, and
> deciding a good way to communicate with them.  I'd like to do this on
> behalf of python.org.  Any chance I can get an official sounding email
> address to start sending stuff to people from?
> 
> Is that alright with everyone?

Go wild!

You might want to request two new lists:  One for the user group
organizers to sign up on so they are reachable and another contact
address to reach the admins / helpers working on providing the
infrastructure.

(I don't have the ability to add lists, or I'd do it for you, but
you can email pydotorg at python dot org)

- Stephan



From comp.ogz at gmail.com  Sat Mar 17 00:00:27 2007
From: comp.ogz at gmail.com (=?utf-8?q?O=C4=9Fuz_Yar=C4=B1mtepe?=)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:00:27 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0703161408q569b130gbce4d5d464c1cf9e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703161408q569b130gbce4d5d464c1cf9e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200703170100.28537.comp.ogz@gmail.com>

16 Mar 2007 Cum 23:08 tarihinde, Chris McAvoy ?unlar? yazm??t?: 
> That said, the first step is identifying all the existing groups, and
> deciding a good way to communicate with them. ?I'd like to do this on
> behalf of python.org. ?Any chance I can get an official sounding email
> address to start sending stuff to people from?
>
> Is that alright with everyone?

Hi,

I am from Turkey and as i know there is no active living Local Python Users 
Group here. It would be better if there is one. On the other hand there are 
people who are using Python. Some are even developers in Pardus GNU/Linux and 
i am sure if there is a movement about a local user group creation there will 
be an active group. 

At this point, before identifying the existing groups, maybe it may be nice to 
define the inexistent ones and help them to create one. 

-- 
O?uz Yar?mtepe
http://www.yarimtepe.com/en

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Sat Mar 17 03:59:03 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:59:03 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
In-Reply-To: <200703170100.28537.comp.ogz@gmail.com>
References: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703161408q569b130gbce4d5d464c1cf9e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703170100.28537.comp.ogz@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0703161959o523cc9d5j65e6408d8e4fb29e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On 3/16/07, O?uz Yar?mtepe <comp.ogz at gmail.com> wrote:
> At this point, before identifying the existing groups, maybe it may be nice to
> define the inexistent ones and help them to create one.

I agree it would be nice to jump right in and start helping people
start new groups, but I think it's good to take care of the low
hanging fruit first.  A user group audit is a doable goal.  Helping
new groups will come...very soon.  In the mean time, if you have any
questions about what we did to get chipy.org off the ground, I'd be
happy to talk about it.

Chris

From tennessee at tennessee.id.au  Sat Mar 17 04:06:01 2007
From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:06:01 +1100
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0703161959o523cc9d5j65e6408d8e4fb29e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703161408q569b130gbce4d5d464c1cf9e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703170100.28537.comp.ogz@gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703161959o523cc9d5j65e6408d8e4fb29e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43c8685c0703162006ndd4ce23l4bdba4e0ecdd3826@mail.gmail.com>

In our last Python Papers we interviewed a couple of PUG organisers. I
thought it was really great.

The PUG organisation in the U.S. appears to be pretty good -- major PUGs in
many geographical areas. Outside of the U.S., however, it seems to be a lot
more fragmented. Many countries don't have one, and many others appears to
be cut off from other groups.

Having experienced trying to reach Python developers the world over, I'd
have to agree it is a pretty tough task, and the only mechanism I have found
is one of email, email and email. Most PUGs seem to be spearheaded by 1 to 5
dedicated members. Trying to build some kind of picture of the PUG network
would be pretty awesome, I have to say.

Maybe someone could set up a Google Maps page where PUGs could register
their sites. It would be pretty cool to see a world map with all the PUGs
pinned onto it.

If you need help reaching anyone, just let me know.

Cheers,
-T

On 3/17/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 3/16/07, O?uz Yar?mtepe <comp.ogz at gmail.com> wrote:
> > At this point, before identifying the existing groups, maybe it may be
> nice to
> > define the inexistent ones and help them to create one.
>
> I agree it would be nice to jump right in and start helping people
> start new groups, but I think it's good to take care of the low
> hanging fruit first.  A user group audit is a doable goal.  Helping
> new groups will come...very soon.  In the mean time, if you have any
> questions about what we did to get chipy.org off the ground, I'd be
> happy to talk about it.
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>
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From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Sat Mar 17 14:38:37 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:38:37 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0703162006ndd4ce23l4bdba4e0ecdd3826@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703161408q569b130gbce4d5d464c1cf9e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703170100.28537.comp.ogz@gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703161959o523cc9d5j65e6408d8e4fb29e@mail.gmail.com>
	<43c8685c0703162006ndd4ce23l4bdba4e0ecdd3826@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0703170638x106d5f1fs6ff7e23e99a0690a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On 3/16/07, Tennessee Leeuwenburg <tennessee at tennessee.id.au> wrote:
>
> If you need help reaching anyone, just let me know.

I have a small spreadsheet of emails I pulled at Pycon from specific
cities...if you have any other contacts, I'm happy to add them to the
list.  This goes for everyone else as well, if you have contacts in
your town, or in other PUG locations, shoot me an email.

I'd love to set up a Google map type thing with UG's...anyone know who
I can talk to to help with the web app side?  My preferred Python web
platform is Django.  I know large pieces of the Pycon site were built
in Django, maybe we could piggy back off them.

Chris

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Sat Mar 17 16:19:45 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:19:45 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0703170638x106d5f1fs6ff7e23e99a0690a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>	<3096c19d0703161408q569b130gbce4d5d464c1cf9e@mail.gmail.com>	<200703170100.28537.comp.ogz@gmail.com>	<3096c19d0703161959o523cc9d5j65e6408d8e4fb29e@mail.gmail.com>	<43c8685c0703162006ndd4ce23l4bdba4e0ecdd3826@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703170638x106d5f1fs6ff7e23e99a0690a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45FC0711.50404@wingware.com>

Chris McAvoy wrote:
> On 3/16/07, Tennessee Leeuwenburg <tennessee at tennessee.id.au> wrote:
>> If you need help reaching anyone, just let me know.
> 
> I have a small spreadsheet of emails I pulled at Pycon from specific
> cities...if you have any other contacts, I'm happy to add them to the
> list.  This goes for everyone else as well, if you have contacts in
> your town, or in other PUG locations, shoot me an email.

Another idea, with permission of the PyCon organizers, is to announce
to the attendees email list.  These are people that came to a conf
so may be interested in continuing face to face contact with other
Python programmers.

In past years more things were announced to this list than I saw
come through this year, and it's probably not unreasonable to do this.

- Stephan

From comp.ogz at gmail.com  Sat Mar 17 16:25:44 2007
From: comp.ogz at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-9?q?O=F0uz_Yar=FDmtepe?=)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:25:44 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0703161959o523cc9d5j65e6408d8e4fb29e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703170100.28537.comp.ogz@gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703161959o523cc9d5j65e6408d8e4fb29e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200703171725.44580.oguzy@comu.edu.tr>

On Saturday 17 March 2007 04:59:03 Chris McAvoy wrote:
> A user group audit is a doable goal. ?Helping
> new groups will come...very soon.

I will be watching the list. If any help or announcement is done for PUG's i 
will inform the people i know in Turkey.

-- 
O?uz Yar?mtepe
?anakkale Onsekiz Mart ?niversitesi
Bilgisayar M?hendisli?i
http://www.yarimtepe.com

From tcp at mac.com  Sat Mar 17 16:31:39 2007
From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:31:39 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
In-Reply-To: <45FC0711.50404@wingware.com>
References: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703161408q569b130gbce4d5d464c1cf9e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703170100.28537.comp.ogz@gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703161959o523cc9d5j65e6408d8e4fb29e@mail.gmail.com>
	<43c8685c0703162006ndd4ce23l4bdba4e0ecdd3826@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0703170638x106d5f1fs6ff7e23e99a0690a@mail.gmail.com>
	<45FC0711.50404@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <193C0C95-3577-4947-BE8C-C7D51D421884@mac.com>


On Mar 17, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Stephan Deibel wrote:

> Another idea, with permission of the PyCon organizers, is to announce
> to the attendees email list.  These are people that came to a conf
> so may be interested in continuing face to face contact with other
> Python programmers.
>
> In past years more things were announced to this list than I saw
> come through this year, and it's probably not unreasonable to do this.



+1

I think we'd be remiss if we weren't making use of the attendee list  
for pycon '07 in some targeted sort of way.

-ted

From roy at panix.com  Mon Mar 19 03:33:52 2007
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:33:52 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] quote from comp.lang.python
Message-ID: <06AA05BA-7413-4D2A-8E9F-22804A18CBF7@panix.com>

Just in case anybody missed it, there was a great post to c.l.p today:


Path: reader2.panix.com!panix!news.linkpendium.com! 
news.linkpendium.com!newscon04.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net! 
newsdst01.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com! 
newssvr11.news.prodigy.net.POSTED!4988f22a!not-for-mail
From: <adaworks at sbcglobal.net>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Subject: Choosing Python
Lines: 28
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180
X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
Message-ID: <PsmLh.8409$yW.3649 at newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 70.134.112.39
X-Complaints-To: abuse at prodigy.net
X-Trace: newssvr11.news.prodigy.net 1174270895 ST000 70.134.112.39  
(Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:21:35 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:21:35 EST
Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com
X-UserInfo1: O at Y[R^[GZRRER_H]]RKB_UDAZZ\DPCPDLXUNNHDK at YUDUWYAKVUOPCW 
[ML\JXUCKVFDYZKBMSFX^OMSAFNTINTDDMVW[X\THOPXZRVOCJTUTPC\_JSBVX 
\KAOTBAJBVMZTYAKMNLDI_MFDSSOLXINH__FS^\WQGHGI^C at E[A_CF\AQLDQ 
\BTMPLDFNVUQ_VM
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 02:21:35 GMT
Xref: panix comp.lang.python:483889

The choice is made.   The school where I teach has finally
made its decision to teach Python first.    For several years,
we have been teaching Java first, and before that, C++.

I introduced Python in one of my courses and got a lot of
flak from some of the other faculty.  I also introduced Ruby,
and got even more flak.   In my course, the students loved
Python for its simplicity, its power, and its flexibility.

It is clear that Python is not the ultimate, one-size-fits-all
language.  No language is.  However, for a beginner's
language it is nearly ideal.   Further, it is a great language
for a wide range of serious programming problems.

For large-scale, safety-critical software, I still prefer Eiffel
or Ada.   Java could vanish tomorrow and, with Python
and Ruby available, no one would miss Java at all.  As for
C++, for any serious software systems, it should always be
the language of last resort.   C++, as an object-oriented
assembler, is pretty much its own virus.

Already, students are turning in really good projects in Python,
and some in Ruby.   Not all the professors are on-board with
this decision, but in time I think they will be.

Richard Riehle


--
roy at panix.com

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From comp.ogz at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 20:47:49 2007
From: comp.ogz at gmail.com (=?utf-8?q?O=C4=9Fuz_Yar=C4=B1mtepe?=)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:47:49 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] quote from comp.lang.python
In-Reply-To: <06AA05BA-7413-4D2A-8E9F-22804A18CBF7@panix.com>
References: <06AA05BA-7413-4D2A-8E9F-22804A18CBF7@panix.com>
Message-ID: <200703192147.49893.comp.ogz@gmail.com>

On Monday 19 March 2007 04:33:52 Roy Smith wrote:
> The choice is made. ? The school where I teach has finally
> made its decision to teach Python first.? ? For several years,
> we have been teaching Java first, and before that, C++

Here, in my university we had a translation group that is translating mainly 
TLDP docs to Turkish. We are interested in Linux related docs. One of the 
docs that is translated by one of our teacher was "How To Become A Hacker" 
that is written by E. S. Raymond. After the explainations written there[1], 
our theacher started to teach Python in the Algorithms and Programming lesson 
to the computer engineering students who are at the first class.

There is a site here[2] that lists Debian users. There can be a similar thing 
for Python users too. There is a quotes section, but if it is enhanced to 
cover universities, project developers and others that diont came to my mind 
right now, it may be more effective.

For ex, i am a senior computer engineering student and developing my final 
project using Python. Also there is a new GNU/Linux distro called Pardus and 
using many Pythonic tools[3]

[1] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#skills1
[2] http://www.debian.org/users/
[3] http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/projects/comar/PythonInPardus.html

-- 
O?uz Yar?mtepe
http://www.yarimtepe.com/en

From amk at amk.ca  Mon Mar 19 21:23:06 2007
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:23:06 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] usergroup.planet.python.org ?
In-Reply-To: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5c6a5400703161351o19fa0e68oda385d70f34a82a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070319202306.GC20084@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 03:51:48PM -0500, DeanG wrote:
> Is there any interesting in hosting usergroups (or other category)
> planets near the official (or unofficial) python planet?

I handle the Planet configuration on python.org for planet.python.org
and planet.jython.org, and it's very easy to add new planets.  You'd
need to be given Subversion access to make changes, but that wouldn't
be very difficult.  (Actually, I should reorganize things a bit to put
the planets on a different server, but that's not your problem.)

With an initial list of RSS/Atom feed URLs, I could very easily set up
an initial experimental planet for user groups.

--amk

From amk at amk.ca  Tue Mar 20 01:44:31 2007
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:44:31 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Outline for Penguin Day lightning talk
Message-ID: <20070320004431.GA4847@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local>

I'm working on a lightning talk for Penguin Day DC and would like to
discuss how to tailor the content for the audience.  Here's the outline:

	Python:
	  Is a programming language
	  Makes a great general tool for many different applications
	    Web applications
	    GUI applications
	    System administration
	    Fast prototyping

	Organizations using Python:
	  Google
	  Washington Post
	  Nature Conservancy
	  Visual effects: ILM, Pixar, DreamWorks Animation

	Tools available for Python
	  Content management apps: Zope, Plone
	  Web app development: Django, others
	  IDEs (commercial and not): SciTE, IDLE, WingIDE, Eclipse support.
	  Libraries:
	    Database interfaces (standard API for RDBMSes)
	    SciPy: Numeric programming
	    Distributed computing (Pyro, XML-RPC, SOAP (XXX check this)!)

	Example code (1 slide -- something interesting)

	Resources:
	  www.python.org
	  Success stories
	  Package Index: www.python.org/pypi
	  Plone:
	  Django
          User groups
     
Notes:
* Penguin Day is in association with a conference aimed at non-profits.

* I'm not sure how technical the audience will be, so the outline
  avoids talking about actual language features; the one slide of
  example code may be removed if the presentation needs to be
  shortened.  Instead it tries to emphasize 1) Python's general
  usefulness for many domains, and 2) the Python community.

* Hence the mentioning of various organizations...

* I hope someone from Plone will be there, hence the prominent mentions of Zope/Plone.

* Are there any Python applications that would be especially relevant to non-profits?

* Any suggestions for libraries that should be emphasized?

* Any suggestions for a good code snippet to show?

--amk

From lac at openend.se  Tue Mar 20 04:35:53 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:35:53 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] Outline for Penguin Day lightning talk
In-Reply-To: Message from "A.M. Kuchling" <amk@amk.ca> of "Mon,
	19 Mar 2007 20:44:31 -0400."
	<20070320004431.GA4847@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> 
References: <20070320004431.GA4847@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> 
Message-ID: <200703200335.l2K3Zr0S026266@theraft.openend.se>


I'd add something about python wrappers for other libraries.  Perhaps
talk about pygame, or mayavi. http://mayavi.sourceforge.net/ both
of which have nice screenshots you can use.

spambayes
roundup
trac
moinmoin

seem particularly suited, in my mind to what many non-profits do.

Laura


From dundeemt at gmail.com  Sat Mar 10 07:14:17 2007
From: dundeemt at gmail.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:14:17 -0600
Subject: [python-advocacy] Fwd:  what made you take py seriously?
In-Reply-To: <5aaed53f0703092213g56d534a4p729dac9a35837c20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45F1A599.7060104@personnelware.com>
	<45F1DF9B.4070906@wingware.com>
	<5aaed53f0703092213g56d534a4p729dac9a35837c20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5aaed53f0703092214t23743c24x278331b8616aeae6@mail.gmail.com>

oops, forgot to reply all.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T <dundeemt at gmail.com>
Date: Mar 10, 2007 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [python-advocacy] what made you take py seriously?
To: Stephan Deibel <sdeibel at wingware.com>


On 3/9/07, Stephan Deibel <sdeibel at wingware.com> wrote:
> For me it was in 1998 when playing with Python to prototype a GUI that
> was taking forever to develop in C++.  For both the C++ work and Python
> work, it was GTK as the GUI toolkit.  I was blown away with how fast I
> got a GUI together with Python, and quickly realized that it didn't have
> to be a prototype but could be the real app.
>
> I think it's always something like this -- Python provides a solution
> that fills a need and draws someone in far enough to wow them.  Then it
> gets used for a lot more than just the original task.
>
> I recognize the significant barrier that exists before someone is
> willing to try something new, since I also long resisted trying Python.
>   The things that help get people past that resistance are important to
> focus on.  Sometimes that's achieved by Python masquerading as a
> complementary/new tool (not a replacement) for something like
> prototyping or testing, and sometimes it's just a strong recommendation
> from someone you trust that makes the difference.  Or, as in my case,
> both together.
>
> The peer contact thing is really the most important.  After that, next
> most useful is a collection of "Doing X with Python" docs that tell
> people how to solve their problem with Python, and wow them with how
> easy and elegant it is.  Then articles like the Python Success Stories
> and other high-level intro/marketing type content that the programmer
> can then use to convince their boss to accept the technology.
>
> - Stephan
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>

For me it was an app named edna, http://edna.sourceforge.net/ written
by Greg Stein.  It was my first encounter with python and after
reading through the source code I knew I had found a new tool.  That
was back in 2000/2001.  Since then I've brought it in to my work
place.  I've trained numerous interns with it and it does all of the
heavy lifting at my day job.

In my consulting sideline it is my tool of choice whether I'm just
doing some simple sysadmin scripting or full blown development.  Now
some times the situation dictates another tool but when it's left to
my discretion -- it's pretty hard to go wrong with the snake.

Once you get use to a truly multi-platform tool that it geared for
real life it is very hard to break the habit.

--
Jeff Hinrichs
Dundee Media & Technology, Inc
jeffh at dundeemt.com


-- 
Jeff Hinrichs
Dundee Media & Technology, Inc
jeffh at dundeemt.com
402.320.0821

From mark.mchristensen at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 19:50:48 2007
From: mark.mchristensen at gmail.com (Mark Ramm)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:50:48 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] that guy that decides py or not to py?
In-Reply-To: <45F6EBE3.9070900@personnelware.com>
References: <45F6EBE3.9070900@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <ec2d68db0703141150h437b9ad7l1fa3bf1d54aa9f61@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/13/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> I took on python as the result of a personal choice.   I am sure there is a huge
> population of people in that boat.

And the recent success of Ruby on Rail's anti-enterprise marketing
campaign proves that it is often the influence of these people who
bring a language into the enterprise.

So paradocically Ruby is being used in  large companies more now than
a year ago because David Hanson made fun of the Java Enterprise
Architect bloggers a lot.

Ruby is gaining ground in companies because of individual converts
marketing it to their bosses, not the other way round.

Providing tools for people to sell to their Corporate Managers is a
usefull enterprise, but getting people that are willing to invest time
and effort to make that sale one-on-one is, in my opinion more
productive.

We need to focus on the people who choose for themselves, and who know
enough about different languages to have their choices be respected by
those around them.

> I think there is a bigger boat: the groups that are lead by a 'manager' (pointy
> hair or otherwise) that is a single person directing a group: "We are going to
> use language X."
>
> That person's choice of X will cascade - his group will learn about X, and each
> member be able to speak about X, and recommend X to other leaders, and the told
> two friends...

The cascade only happens if people fall in love with python, and very
few people fall in love with a technology forced upon them by the
Pointy Hared Boss.

In my opinion "Marketing Python" is most effective when we convince
respected, visible, interesting people to pick python to do cool
things. Oh, and it doesn't hurt if they publicize those cool things
too.

-- 
Mark Ramm-Christensen
email: mark at compoundthinking dot com
blog: www.compoundthinking.com/blog

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Tue Mar 20 15:44:27 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:44:27 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] Outline for Penguin Day lightning talk
In-Reply-To: <20070320004431.GA4847@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local>
References: <20070320004431.GA4847@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local>
Message-ID: <45FFF34B.8020401@wingware.com>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> * Any suggestions for libraries that should be emphasized?

Maybe the various internet data and protocol libraries?  There's
also the Python Image Library, maybe gnuplot, etc.

For an example, anything like this where a few lines of code can do
a lot, like fetching something from the web, and processing it somehow
to obtain a nice image or graph to show.

I don't know what exactly would be best for this crowd, but I always
like it when I can do things like this in relatively few lines of
Python.

- Stephan

From tennessee at tennessee.id.au  Tue Mar 20 23:48:01 2007
From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:48:01 +1100
Subject: [python-advocacy] that guy that decides py or not to py?
In-Reply-To: <ec2d68db0703141150h437b9ad7l1fa3bf1d54aa9f61@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45F6EBE3.9070900@personnelware.com>
	<ec2d68db0703141150h437b9ad7l1fa3bf1d54aa9f61@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43c8685c0703201548he9117e6pda511b73c1e3dfa@mail.gmail.com>

Great thread everyone. I've been really pleased to read all the
contributions so far.

For me, I started using Python to develop something due to a fault in the
Java core APIs. I had heard about Python, and thought it might suit me. So I
started working, and solved my problem using the same algorithm as Java,
transliterated to Python, in about half a day. Win!

So, I kept using Python for other things. I fell in love with semantic
whitespace, list comprehensions, the interpreter and everything that makes
Python great. Clean, meaningful code.

Now, I work for the Australian Bureau of Meteorology on the Graphical
Forecast Editor, which is a NOAA product written in Python with some C/C++
deep down. I deliberately sought out this job because it was in Python (not
to mention being a promotion and more interesting work). In this case, the
application came first.

One reason that Ruby may have been so popular in the Enterprise is Ruby on
Rails. Yes, I know, it's just a web platform, and Python has some too. But
consider this -- a project manager has at his disposal either a Ruby or
Python programmer, and the need for some web application. To choose Ruby, he
only needs to choose one thing (RoR, the obvious choice). To choose Python,
he needs to choose two things -- Python, and then the web framework he will
use.

To my eyes, as a professional programmer using Python exclusively, working
in the domain of desktop applications with no web interface or interaction,
it is *difficult* to choose a Python web framework of any sort. If I have to
do any heavy lifting, I will most likely revert back to Java because 3 years
ago I knew how to do web stuff with servlets.

The python web apps are to my mind very unusally oriented. I need to know
about Python, Javascript, browser incompatibilities, CSS and a whole list of
things. I need to be really, really expert in order to get a Python web
application working well. In practise, I have never been able to just "do
what I want" using a Python web framework.

Where am I going with this? Rather than continuing to argue for the point,
let's just assume I'm right and examine that assumption later.

Ruby can get into organisation easily, because it has a single,
well-advertised preferred solution which developers can learn. It is stable.
The language isn't the important choice here, the web framework is the
important choice -- at least initially. But if you look at the PSF website,
there is no shiny web framework to be picked up. Even the various tutorials
on the framework websites (thinking of Django, TurboGears) only show how to
(essentially) press 'go' on a pre-packaged module. They don't show you how
to get into the guts of the thing and really make it do something you want.

There are no good books on doing new application development using the web
as a front-end. Shopping carts and Wikis? So yesterday. While I may be
arguing, perhaps, against my own inexpertise, I don't think this is the
whole story. There will be others in my situation -- new to Python or new to
web programming -- who find the body of knowledge too large to assimilate,
yet not find any acceptable solutions in what they do choose to explore.

This is a barrier on two fronts -- Management has too much to choose from,
and developers have too much to learn.

Sorry if this has turned into a rant. I will leave it there, but if anyone
is interested, I have a few more points to make.

Cheers,
-T

On 3/15/07, Mark Ramm <mark.mchristensen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/13/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> > I took on python as the result of a personal choice.   I am sure there
> is a huge
> > population of people in that boat.
>
> And the recent success of Ruby on Rail's anti-enterprise marketing
> campaign proves that it is often the influence of these people who
> bring a language into the enterprise.
>
> So paradocically Ruby is being used in  large companies more now than
> a year ago because David Hanson made fun of the Java Enterprise
> Architect bloggers a lot.
>
> Ruby is gaining ground in companies because of individual converts
> marketing it to their bosses, not the other way round.
>
> Providing tools for people to sell to their Corporate Managers is a
> usefull enterprise, but getting people that are willing to invest time
> and effort to make that sale one-on-one is, in my opinion more
> productive.
>
> We need to focus on the people who choose for themselves, and who know
> enough about different languages to have their choices be respected by
> those around them.
>
> > I think there is a bigger boat: the groups that are lead by a 'manager'
> (pointy
> > hair or otherwise) that is a single person directing a group: "We are
> going to
> > use language X."
> >
> > That person's choice of X will cascade - his group will learn about X,
> and each
> > member be able to speak about X, and recommend X to other leaders, and
> the told
> > two friends...
>
> The cascade only happens if people fall in love with python, and very
> few people fall in love with a technology forced upon them by the
> Pointy Hared Boss.
>
> In my opinion "Marketing Python" is most effective when we convince
> respected, visible, interesting people to pick python to do cool
> things. Oh, and it doesn't hurt if they publicize those cool things
> too.
>
> --
> Mark Ramm-Christensen
> email: mark at compoundthinking dot com
> blog: www.compoundthinking.com/blog
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>
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From tennessee at tennessee.id.au  Wed Mar 21 00:43:09 2007
From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:43:09 +1100
Subject: [python-advocacy] Creating a PSF license option for Google Code
In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0703201612i129a45dbu3f92db3dca1ae965@mail.gmail.com>
References: <43c8685c0703201612i129a45dbu3f92db3dca1ae965@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43c8685c0703201643u3503f086ra13f67a3f6e79efa@mail.gmail.com>

I created a new project today at Google Code. I thought it might be pretty
cool to include a 'python software foundation' license option. This would
allow python project developers to choose a license they know will be
compatible with Python core, which may be an important consideration.
Perhaps also Google SoC submissions should use this also?

Cheers,
-T
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Mar 21 01:09:22 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:09:22 -0700
Subject: [python-advocacy] Creating a PSF license option for Google Code
In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0703201643u3503f086ra13f67a3f6e79efa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <43c8685c0703201612i129a45dbu3f92db3dca1ae965@mail.gmail.com>
	<43c8685c0703201643u3503f086ra13f67a3f6e79efa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070321000922.GA15747@panix.com>

On Wed, Mar 21, 2007, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
>
> I created a new project today at Google Code. I thought it might be pretty
> cool to include a 'python software foundation' license option. This would
> allow python project developers to choose a license they know will be
> compatible with Python core, which may be an important consideration.
> Perhaps also Google SoC submissions should use this also?

No:
http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Typing is cheap.  Thinking is expensive."  --Roy Smith

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Wed Mar 21 02:02:56 2007
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:02:56 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] [OT?] Creating a PSF license option for
 Google Code
In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0703201643u3503f086ra13f67a3f6e79efa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <43c8685c0703201612i129a45dbu3f92db3dca1ae965@mail.gmail.com>
	<43c8685c0703201643u3503f086ra13f67a3f6e79efa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46008440.2020907@wingware.com>

Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
> I created a new project today at Google Code. I thought it might be 
> pretty cool to include a 'python software foundation' license option. 
> This would allow python project developers to choose a license they know 
> will be compatible with Python core, which may be an important 
> consideration. Perhaps also Google SoC submissions should use this also?

If there are going to be multiple developers on the project, and
there is a chance of adding the code to the standard library,
then license choice is an issue.  Otherwise, it doesn't matter
as far as the PSF is concerned.

This may be a bit off topic for this list, but on the other hand
it's pretty important that our advocates understand Python's
licensing.  So here are the key points if you want to facilitate
getting something into the standard library at some point in
the future:

* Get PSF contribution forms from all authors, or make sure you
   keep in contact with them so a form can be obtained later.
   If code exists for which no form can be obtained, that would
   block getting that module into the standard library.

* Use Academic Free License v. 2.1 or Apache License, Version 2.0
   from the start if you don't want to have to change licenses
   to contribute.  Changing licenses is best avoided.

* For many things, the chances of going into the standard library
   are slim.  However, it may still reduce the overall licensing
   horrors of any future/mythical sumo distribution what does
   contain your module.

* Be sure you understand the implications before using the GPL.
   For any library, using the GPL will greatly reduce your
   potential contributor/user base.  The LGPL is OK in most cases.
   Of course there are perfectly valid reasons to use the GPL,
   just don't make it your default blindly.

See also:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonSoftwareFoundationLicenseFaq

- Stephan

From tennessee at tennessee.id.au  Wed Mar 21 02:43:11 2007
From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:43:11 +1100
Subject: [python-advocacy] [OT?] Creating a PSF license option for
	Google Code
In-Reply-To: <46008440.2020907@wingware.com>
References: <43c8685c0703201612i129a45dbu3f92db3dca1ae965@mail.gmail.com>
	<43c8685c0703201643u3503f086ra13f67a3f6e79efa@mail.gmail.com>
	<46008440.2020907@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <43c8685c0703201843g4f541565qe0876d73ac3b2818@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for that response, Stephan.

I suppose I had in mind projects like cdat which effectively redistribute
Python. Developers /may/ wish to develop applications, and /may/ wish to
distribute a python binary with their module already installed.

If they were to do such a thing, they might need to be aware of licensing
issues.

Cheers,
-T

On 3/21/07, Stephan Deibel <sdeibel at wingware.com> wrote:
>
> Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote:
> > I created a new project today at Google Code. I thought it might be
> > pretty cool to include a 'python software foundation' license option.
> > This would allow python project developers to choose a license they know
> > will be compatible with Python core, which may be an important
> > consideration. Perhaps also Google SoC submissions should use this also?
>
> If there are going to be multiple developers on the project, and
> there is a chance of adding the code to the standard library,
> then license choice is an issue.  Otherwise, it doesn't matter
> as far as the PSF is concerned.
>
> This may be a bit off topic for this list, but on the other hand
> it's pretty important that our advocates understand Python's
> licensing.  So here are the key points if you want to facilitate
> getting something into the standard library at some point in
> the future:
>
> * Get PSF contribution forms from all authors, or make sure you
>    keep in contact with them so a form can be obtained later.
>    If code exists for which no form can be obtained, that would
>    block getting that module into the standard library.
>
> * Use Academic Free License v. 2.1 or Apache License, Version 2.0
>    from the start if you don't want to have to change licenses
>    to contribute.  Changing licenses is best avoided.
>
> * For many things, the chances of going into the standard library
>    are slim.  However, it may still reduce the overall licensing
>    horrors of any future/mythical sumo distribution what does
>    contain your module.
>
> * Be sure you understand the implications before using the GPL.
>    For any library, using the GPL will greatly reduce your
>    potential contributor/user base.  The LGPL is OK in most cases.
>    Of course there are perfectly valid reasons to use the GPL,
>    just don't make it your default blindly.
>
> See also:
>
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonSoftwareFoundationLicenseFaq
>
> - Stephan
>
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From lac at openend.se  Wed Mar 21 07:48:55 2007
From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:48:55 +0100
Subject: [python-advocacy] Creating a PSF license option for Google Code
In-Reply-To: Message from "Tennessee Leeuwenburg" <tennessee@tennessee.id.au> 
	of "Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:43:09 +1100."
	<43c8685c0703201643u3503f086ra13f67a3f6e79efa@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <43c8685c0703201612i129a45dbu3f92db3dca1ae965@mail.gmail.com>
	<43c8685c0703201643u3503f086ra13f67a3f6e79efa@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <200703210648.l2L6mtLP013743@theraft.openend.se>

In a message of Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:43:09 +1100, "Tennessee Leeuwenburg" writes
>I created a new project today at Google Code. I thought it might be pretty
>cool to include a 'python software foundation' license option. This would
>allow python project developers to choose a license they know will be
>compatible with Python core, which may be an important consideration.
>Perhaps also Google SoC submissions should use this also?
>
>Cheers,
>-T

Please remove this.  The PSF does not accept submissions under the PSF
license into the Python core.  see: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonSoftwareFoundationLicenseFaq
for why developers for whom this is an important consideration should use
the Academic Free License or the Apachee 2.0 license instead.

Laura Creighton

From catherine.devlin at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 15:15:28 2007
From: catherine.devlin at gmail.com (Catherine Devlin)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:15:28 -0400
Subject: [python-advocacy] new Intro to Python talk
Message-ID: <6523e39a0703220715g24812034h740bcf33a1131caa@mail.gmail.com>

I gave an Intro to Python talk last week at the local Perl Mongers'
meeting.  It was very well received, and I have a standing invitation to
come back and talk more Python anytime.  I've put a tarball of it at

http://catherine.devlin.googlepages.com/pyintro.tar

Feel free to reuse, modify, comment, vandalize, etc.  It's in Bruce, so
you'll need to set yourself up with that infrastructure if you want to run
it.  Does anybody know a better place where it should be uploaded to?

I decided to center the talk on a demo relying heavily on VPython, which I
saw for the first time at Richard Olenick's PyCon talk.*  I figured that
having something moving and pretty on the screen might help keep an
audience's attention.  Plus, with VPython, there's a nice intuitive feel to
it all - you show them setting sphere.color = color.blue and they SEE the
sphere change to blue instantly.

So anyway, the presentation gradually builds up a script that generates a
random solar system and turns gravity loose on the planets, introducing
Python along the way.  I'm planning to give it again next month at
Penguicon** in Michigan - hopefully the spacey topic will draw in some SF
fans who aren't necessarily hard-core programmers already.  Then, perhaps,
at Ohio LinuxFest, and... well, anyplace I can think of (suggestions are
welcome).

while True:
    centralOhio.append(Pythonista())

* - http://us.pycon.org/apps07/talks/#proposal_link_100
**- http://www.penguicon.org

-- 
- Catherine
http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/
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From carl at personnelware.com  Sun Mar 25 17:48:35 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:48:35 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] lunch with a manager
Message-ID: <460699D3.4080002@personnelware.com>

I was having lunch with the owner of a 20 employee company (so like a manager..) 
and the topic of programing languages came up.  "I hear python is good.  Why 
should I send the 6 people who do some programming (currently Informix and php) 
to Python training?"  So now I needed to justify it, which this time wasn't too 
hard, given the relation I had with this guy.  weather it happens or not is to 
be seen, cuz there are other factors (none of the 6 are just programmers, they 
manage servers, ship equipment, talk to clients, spec out 30 page equipment 
lists, etc.)  so I can understand if the 'tech manager' nixes the idea.

But it got me thinking, "how can this be optimized?"  What if I had just met 
this guy, and only had 5 minutes to "sell him"?    That isn't enough time to 
"land the fish" but it is enough to "set the hook."

I looked over python.org from the viewpoint of someone who wasn't sold on 
python, but was interested.

The front center P that includes "... can be learned in a few days. Many Python 
programmers report substantial productivity gains..." is good.

http://www.python.org/about is pretty good, but I think it may be a good idea to 
  distill it into a 2nd page that is higher level - that caters to an audience 
that would stop reading when they hit "strong introspection capabilities" (2nd 
bullet of p.o/about)

I am thinking maybe a new URL, like whyPython.org, that I can put on a business 
card, or scribbled on a napkin.  The content would be limited to answering that 
question. It could have different sections targeting different audiences.  Once 
someone was 'sold' they would never hit this site again.

Now to go eat and see if this still seems like a good idea on a full stomach.

Carl K


From jeff at taupro.com  Tue Mar 27 14:55:49 2007
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:55:49 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] lunch with a manager
In-Reply-To: <460699D3.4080002@personnelware.com>
References: <460699D3.4080002@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <46091455.601@taupro.com>

Carl Karsten wrote:
> I was having lunch with the owner of a 20 employee company (so like a manager..) 
> and the topic of programing languages came up.  "I hear python is good.  Why 
> should I send the 6 people who do some programming (currently Informix and php) 
> to Python training?"  So now I needed to justify it, which this time wasn't too 
> hard, given the relation I had with this guy.  weather it happens or not is to 
> be seen, cuz there are other factors (none of the 6 are just programmers, they 
> manage servers, ship equipment, talk to clients, spec out 30 page equipment 
> lists, etc.)  so I can understand if the 'tech manager' nixes the idea.
> 
> But it got me thinking, "how can this be optimized?"  What if I had just met 
> this guy, and only had 5 minutes to "sell him"?    That isn't enough time to 
> "land the fish" but it is enough to "set the hook."
> 
> I looked over python.org from the viewpoint of someone who wasn't sold on 
> python, but was interested.
> 
> http://www.python.org/about is pretty good, but I think it may be a good idea to 
>   distill it into a 2nd page that is higher level - that caters to an audience 
> that would stop reading when they hit "strong introspection capabilities" (2nd 
> bullet of p.o/about)
> 
> I am thinking maybe a new URL, like whyPython.org, that I can put on a business 
> card, or scribbled on a napkin.  The content would be limited to answering that 
> question. It could have different sections targeting different audiences.  Once 
> someone was 'sold' they would never hit this site again.

Hi Carl.  This idea has recurred before.  I'd been developing something like 
what you want, a new site targeted at those considering Python, can provides a 
way for visitors to get a targeted message for their circumstances.  It's set 
up at http://advocacy.python.org.  However, the concensus among the PSF, for 
the next six months, is to stop development on that site and focus on the user 
groups and not the IT managers.

See my next email for a proposed task list for the next six months.

-Jeff

From jeff at taupro.com  Tue Mar 27 15:14:21 2007
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:14:21 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposed Advocacy Task List for Next Six Months
Message-ID: <460918AD.6060407@taupro.com>

To those on the advocacy list, we've been having a discussion on the 
psf-members list on what to tackle re advocacy for the next six months.  I'd 
like to run the plan past you and get your ideas.

It has a primary focus on content, particularly for encouragement of the 
formation of user groups, and strictly avoids software development.  The 
general PSF consensus is that the existing functionality, interface and style 
of www.python.org is acceptable for now, that we should avoid creating more 
"islands" like advocacy.python.org, us.pycon.org and pycamp.python.org and 
rather integrate more tightly under www.python.org.  Also that work is needed 
to generate more extensive content and to organize the content we already have 
on www.python.org.

1. User groups How-To and content resources (40%)

    - flyers/brochures
    - a list (N=5) of meeting topics with outlines/slides for presentations
      (some overlap in topics with the list below)
    - a how-to with info on where to get give-away swag
    - pointers to resources like meetup.com
    - how to get a mailing list set up
    - best practices
    - what makes a group work/succeed vs. not
    - where to find members, how to get the word out

2. Python.org advocacy content (45%)

    - work with showmedo.com staff to produce and prominently display on
      www.python.org, in the style of http://www.rubyonrails.org/screencasts, a
      series of ten 5-minute videos on the following topics, suggested by their
      staff:

      - Science with Python - coupling matplotlib inside a wxPython GUI to do
        science
      - Databases - couple a MySQL db through SQLObject into a Python program
        to access/edit data
      - pyGame - build a simple game
      - pyOGRE - build a whizzy 3d demo
      - Make 'Excel' with wxPython - using the csv module and a wx grid to
        build a simple Excel clone
      - Bullet-proof web sites with Twill - use Twill and nosetests to test a
        running website (we already use this for ShowMeDo)
      - A Content Management System - 5 minutes customising Plone to fit usual
        use-cases
      - win32 - using the win32 library to export a Word or Excel file

    - produce add-on content associated with the above topics, for those who
      see the videos and want to investigate further:

      - whitepaper on Science with Python
      - whitepaper on Databases
      - whitepaper on Gaming with Python
      - whitepaper on Testing Methodologies for Websites

3. User group infrastructure (5%)

    - Establish/support an cross-usergroup organizer mailing list
    - Maintain a spreadsheet of user groups and officers

4. Respond to queries, general advocacy and outreach, support EuroPython where
    possible (10%)

There is only so much time available, barring significant volunteer 
involvement, and so to avoid dilution, what is deemphasized is as important as 
what will be tackled.  The following would -not- have significant work 
directed at them, for the next six months:

  - encouragement of ISP support of Python
  - top-down encouragement of Python adoption within IT
  - efforts to reach out to the K-12 school systems
  - further promotion/creation of Python wearables
  - encouragement/support of unconferences

The universities would be supported via the efforts to strengthen our 
usergroups, as many of those groups will hopefully form on campus.

Jeff Rush
Python Advocacy Coordinator

From brad at allendev.com  Tue Mar 27 18:14:25 2007
From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:14:25 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposed Advocacy Task List for Next Six
 Months
In-Reply-To: <460918AD.6060407@taupro.com>
References: <460918AD.6060407@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <a06230916c22eed627953@[192.168.1.155]>

Jeff Rush wrote:
>It has a primary focus on content, particularly for encouragement of the
>formation of user groups, and strictly avoids software development.  The
>general PSF consensus is that the existing functionality, interface and style
>of www.python.org is acceptable for now, that we should avoid creating more
>"islands" like advocacy.python.org, us.pycon.org and pycamp.python.org and
>rather integrate more tightly under www.python.org.  Also that work is needed
>to generate more extensive content and to organize the content we already have
>on www.python.org.

One of the ideas we talked about at the advocacy BOF was the idea of
a user group site registry, with a feature whereby a user group organizer
could post announcements about upcoming meetings as well as post
meeting notes.

These user group meeting notices could be available via RSS/Atom feed
and URL selectable by region.

It also sounds like something not easy to implement using the existing
python.org infrastructure...

Jeff, can you post the other ideas that came out of the BOF meeting?
I recall that you took notes.


From jeffh at dundeemt.com  Wed Mar 28 03:46:10 2007
From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:46:10 -0500
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposed Advocacy Task List for Next Six
	Months
In-Reply-To: <460918AD.6060407@taupro.com>
References: <460918AD.6060407@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <5aaed53f0703271846p4d805ed5x1dc680db52fd6387@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/27/07, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:
> To those on the advocacy list, we've been having a discussion on the
> psf-members list on what to tackle re advocacy for the next six months.  I'd
> like to run the plan past you and get your ideas.
>
> It has a primary focus on content, particularly for encouragement of the
> formation of user groups, and strictly avoids software development.  The
> general PSF consensus is that the existing functionality, interface and style
> of www.python.org is acceptable for now, that we should avoid creating more
> "islands" like advocacy.python.org, us.pycon.org and pycamp.python.org and
> rather integrate more tightly under www.python.org.  Also that work is needed
> to generate more extensive content and to organize the content we already have
> on www.python.org.
>
> 1. User groups How-To and content resources (40%)
>
>     - flyers/brochures
>     - a list (N=5) of meeting topics with outlines/slides for presentations
>       (some overlap in topics with the list below)
>     - a how-to with info on where to get give-away swag
>     - pointers to resources like meetup.com
>     - how to get a mailing list set up
>     - best practices
>     - what makes a group work/succeed vs. not
>     - where to find members, how to get the word out
>
> 2. Python.org advocacy content (45%)
>
>     - work with showmedo.com staff to produce and prominently display on
>       www.python.org, in the style of http://www.rubyonrails.org/screencasts, a
>       series of ten 5-minute videos on the following topics, suggested by their
>       staff:
>
>       - Science with Python - coupling matplotlib inside a wxPython GUI to do
>         science
>       - Databases - couple a MySQL db through SQLObject into a Python program
>         to access/edit data
>       - pyGame - build a simple game
>       - pyOGRE - build a whizzy 3d demo
>       - Make 'Excel' with wxPython - using the csv module and a wx grid to
>         build a simple Excel clone
>       - Bullet-proof web sites with Twill - use Twill and nosetests to test a
>         running website (we already use this for ShowMeDo)
>       - A Content Management System - 5 minutes customising Plone to fit usual
>         use-cases
>       - win32 - using the win32 library to export a Word or Excel file
>
>     - produce add-on content associated with the above topics, for those who
>       see the videos and want to investigate further:
>
>       - whitepaper on Science with Python
>       - whitepaper on Databases
>       - whitepaper on Gaming with Python
>       - whitepaper on Testing Methodologies for Websites
>
> 3. User group infrastructure (5%)
>
>     - Establish/support an cross-usergroup organizer mailing list
>     - Maintain a spreadsheet of user groups and officers
>
> 4. Respond to queries, general advocacy and outreach, support EuroPython where
>     possible (10%)
>
> There is only so much time available, barring significant volunteer
> involvement, and so to avoid dilution, what is deemphasized is as important as
> what will be tackled.  The following would -not- have significant work
> directed at them, for the next six months:
>
>   - encouragement of ISP support of Python
>   - top-down encouragement of Python adoption within IT
>   - efforts to reach out to the K-12 school systems
>   - further promotion/creation of Python wearables
>   - encouragement/support of unconferences
>
> The universities would be supported via the efforts to strengthen our
> usergroups, as many of those groups will hopefully form on campus.
>
> Jeff Rush
> Python Advocacy Coordinator
> _______________________________________________
> Advocacy mailing list
> Advocacy at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy
>

Jeff,

I agree with most of your list, however I feel that enouragement of
ISPs to implement and/or expand their python offerings is too
important to drop.  The web will continue to be hot for some time to
come, and their are too few ISPs who properly support Python --
especially in terms of mod_python and/or mod_wsgi and the WSGI
resources that a number of the python web frameworks are moving
towards.  An increase in the number of ISPs supporting python more
fully would be a giant plus for advocacy.

Time and person power being finite resources, I suggest cutting #2 by
50% - 5 videos and white papers and delegating #3 out to those in the
User Group sphere. (I would volunteer to do the work necessary for #3
-- I just finished the process of requesting and setting up the Omaha
groups list  and I would be happy to maintain the spread sheet for the
time being. -- you'd have to let me know what parameters you would
want tracked.)  That by your % estimates should open up ~27.5% for
going after ISPs.

We'll have to wait and see if any one else agrees with me.

-jeff

-- 
Jeff Hinrichs
jeffh at dundeemt.com
Omaha Python Users Group
http://www.OmahaPython.org

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Wed Mar 28 01:45:47 2007
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:45:47 +0200
Subject: [python-advocacy] Proposed Advocacy Task List for Next Six
	Months
In-Reply-To: <460918AD.6060407@taupro.com>
References: <460918AD.6060407@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <200703280145.47994.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Tuesday 27 March 2007 15:14, Jeff Rush wrote:
> To those on the advocacy list, we've been having a discussion on the
> psf-members list on what to tackle re advocacy for the next six months. 
> I'd like to run the plan past you and get your ideas.

I'll try and make a few comments, but it's a bit late in this time zone!

> It has a primary focus on content, particularly for encouragement of the
> formation of user groups, and strictly avoids software development.  The
> general PSF consensus is that the existing functionality, interface and
> style of www.python.org is acceptable for now, that we should avoid
> creating more "islands" like advocacy.python.org, us.pycon.org and
> pycamp.python.org and rather integrate more tightly under www.python.org. 
> Also that work is needed to generate more extensive content and to organize
> the content we already have on www.python.org.

I think this is a reasonable strategy: the Web facilitates integration between 
different infrastructures (the "cool people" call them "mash-ups", I 
believe), and the thing that powers python.org should really be better at 
pointing its high tech vacuum cleaner at actively developed content (like the 
Wiki, but with some improved anti-spam measures in place), making use of 
things like event information from the PythonEvents Wiki page, perhaps 
capturing user group event details from the apparently actively edited Wiki 
pages with that theme.

> 1. User groups How-To and content resources (40%)
>
>     - flyers/brochures
>     - a list (N=5) of meeting topics with outlines/slides for presentations
>       (some overlap in topics with the list below)
>     - a how-to with info on where to get give-away swag
>     - pointers to resources like meetup.com
>     - how to get a mailing list set up
>     - best practices
>     - what makes a group work/succeed vs. not
>     - where to find members, how to get the word out

It's good to see motion in this area, but I'll let other people more 
interested in such matters make their comments.

> 2. Python.org advocacy content (45%)
>
>     - work with showmedo.com staff to produce and prominently display on
>       www.python.org, in the style of
> http://www.rubyonrails.org/screencasts, a series of ten 5-minute videos on
> the following topics, suggested by their staff:

[...]

This can't do any harm, but as someone who doesn't run Flash (and whose 
browsing experience is an order of magnitude faster and less hassled as a 
result), it'd be nice to remind people that pyvnc2swf also produces other 
formats.

>     - produce add-on content associated with the above topics, for those
> who see the videos and want to investigate further:
>
>       - whitepaper on Science with Python
>       - whitepaper on Databases
>       - whitepaper on Gaming with Python
>       - whitepaper on Testing Methodologies for Websites

Additional materials are always a good thing, however.

> 3. User group infrastructure (5%)
>
>     - Establish/support an cross-usergroup organizer mailing list
>     - Maintain a spreadsheet of user groups and officers
>
> 4. Respond to queries, general advocacy and outreach, support EuroPython
> where possible (10%)

I'd like to plug EuroPython at this point and request that the recent Call For 
Proposals be announced also on python.org. It would be wonderful if 
python.org could track the EuroPython announcements - there won't be too many 
- especially since the PyCon feedback suggested that python.org was a major 
promotional asset.

Paul

P.S. I'll comment a bit more on the rest of the list when daylight returns.