From jeff at taupro.com Wed May 2 15:02:00 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 08:02:00 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Need Help in Preparing for Study of Python by Forrester Research Message-ID: <46388BC8.9000806@taupro.com> Forrester Research is doing a study on dynamic languages and has asked that Python be represented. As advocacy coordinator I've volunteered to drive this, collecting answers from the community and locating representatives to participate in interviews. The goal of the study is to: - identify the criteria to use for evaluating such languages - identify the relevant choices of dynamic languages - identify how the different dynamic languages stack up - examine where dynamic languages work best Initially, they'd like feedback (not yet the answers themselves) from us regarding their proposed evaluation criteria - questions to add or that give no value, rewording to make them more clear. I've posted their draft criteria, which came as a spreadsheet at: http://dfwpython.org/uploads/ForresterPrep/DynamicLanguagesCriteria.xls Later, between May 8 and 25, the researchers will need to interview via 1-hour telephone calls, several developers with experience using Python. And they want to also interview one person with an executive viewpoint, able to describe relevant background, positioning, value proposition, customer base, and strategic vision. And later they would also like snippets of Python code that illustrate the power of Python, and I hope to call upon community members to help in producing that. The snippets do not have to be originally written and can be pulled from existing projects. But those steps come later. For now let's focus on analysis of the evaluation criteria at the above URL. Time is short as they'd like that feedback by May 3, so please get any responses to me as soon as possible. And be thinking who would best represent the executive view of Python in an interview. Thanks for your help, Jeff Rush Advocacy Coordinator From tennessee at tennessee.id.au Thu May 3 07:04:20 2007 From: tennessee at tennessee.id.au (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:04:20 +1000 Subject: [python-advocacy] Need Help in Preparing for Study of Python by Forrester Research In-Reply-To: <46388BC8.9000806@taupro.com> References: <46388BC8.9000806@taupro.com> Message-ID: <43c8685c0705022204t1655f7b9x13a3172c7f6226cf@mail.gmail.com> I've read through the document. It seems basically okay, although highly web-oriented. There are still *some* desktop developers left in the world! I was a little disappointed not to see more on the community -- e.g. engagement of the community, activity in support fora, availability of books and tutorials etc. The questions looked like a reasonable checklist if you were developing an enterprise web app, but didn't really turn out very much about the language itself, or cover elegance, programming style. It would probably be good to see a few standard algorithms implemented in each language rather than allowing each language to submit whatever they like. A bit of both might be nice. Just my 2c. Cheers, -T On 5/2/07, Jeff Rush wrote: > Forrester Research is doing a study on dynamic languages and has asked that > Python be represented. As advocacy coordinator I've volunteered to drive > this, collecting answers from the community and locating representatives to > participate in interviews. > > The goal of the study is to: > > - identify the criteria to use for evaluating such languages > - identify the relevant choices of dynamic languages > - identify how the different dynamic languages stack up > - examine where dynamic languages work best > > Initially, they'd like feedback (not yet the answers themselves) from us > regarding their proposed evaluation criteria - questions to add or that give > no value, rewording to make them more clear. I've posted their draft > criteria, which came as a spreadsheet at: > > http://dfwpython.org/uploads/ForresterPrep/DynamicLanguagesCriteria.xls > > Later, between May 8 and 25, the researchers will need to interview via 1-hour > telephone calls, several developers with experience using Python. And they > want to also interview one person with an executive viewpoint, able to > describe relevant background, positioning, value proposition, customer base, > and strategic vision. > > And later they would also like snippets of Python code that illustrate the > power of Python, and I hope to call upon community members to help in > producing that. The snippets do not have to be originally written and can be > pulled from existing projects. > > But those steps come later. For now let's focus on analysis of the evaluation > criteria at the above URL. Time is short as they'd like that feedback by May > 3, so please get any responses to me as soon as possible. And be thinking who > would best represent the executive view of Python in an interview. > > Thanks for your help, > > Jeff Rush > Advocacy Coordinator > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > From carl at personnelware.com Thu May 3 19:04:31 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 12:04:31 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] lean py in 3 min Message-ID: <463A161F.90103@personnelware.com> per day. for months. maybe even years. Like most mornings, had a thought but this one seemed worth posting. Diving into a new language is a big daunting task. you either put everything on hold, or do it half way, or some combination that gives you the worst of both. What if one could could learn python with an insignificant impact on your daily activities? Each day (maybe only M-F), be introduced to some small little factoid that takes about a min to read, and maybe another min to ponder, and in some cases a 3rd to play with at the >>> prompt. In the event that you need help, have some community of peers that you can turn to. For those that are uncomfortable asking a question, there would be others that would hopefully ask the same question. Of course this means the lesson of the day needs to be created, and better come up with a road map (day 2 should probably not introduce yield.) It may be as easy as chopping up http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html, and maybe adding a "do this at the >>>". The nice thing is the initial push would really only need to be the map and then 2 or 3 days worth. (1 just seems to be a bit thin.) Then some group needs to just make sure they pump out an average of one a day. 5 in the group means one per week. 20 in the group and you are down to one per month. I envision a mail list like setup, where people subscribe to the list, get their lesson of the day emailed to them. not sure how the 'help' should be setup. easy way: hit reply, goes to the list. kinda breaks the 1 min per day model I was hoping for. hate to say it, but a web forum would make it easier to tune in/out the help chatter. (im not a big fan of web forums. I like mail lists.) I also envision not letting people start whenever they want. better to have a 'large group' (30? 300?) all getting the same lesson so that the help community is in sync. So people sign up, and once some threshold is hit, close the list, start sending lessons and open a new list. There are some edge cases that don't seem too important like should we let people on one list slide back to a later list if they go on vacation. that will be a great problem to have, cuz it means there was enough interest to start not just one but 2 lists :) OK, got that off my mind and into the archives. maybe someday it can be implemented. Carl K From roy at panix.com Thu May 3 19:24:25 2007 From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [python-advocacy] lean py in 3 min In-Reply-To: <463A161F.90103@personnelware.com> References: <463A161F.90103@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <28597.128.222.37.21.1178213065.squirrel@mail.panix.com> > Each day (maybe only M-F), be introduced to some small little > factoid that takes about a min to read, and maybe another min > to ponder, and in some cases a 3rd to play with at the >>> prompt. Other than us geeks, most people don't want to learn a language for the sake of learning a language, they want to do it because it lets them get something done. Which means they need practical examples of how this can apply to their Day Job. And, therein lies the rub. Examples will always be in some specific domain. An example which is interesting to a molecular biologist (how to use Python to retrieve a sequence from Genbank and translate it into amino acids) will be both unintelligible and boring to a astro-physicist. And vice-versa for how to use Python to compute galactic coordinates. It might be useful to have a whole series of these: Python in 5 minutes a day for the molecular biologist Python in 5 minutes a day for the astro physicist Python in 5 minutes a day for the web designer Python in 5 minutes a day for the unix sysadmin Python in 5 minutes a day for the HD-DVD cracker :-) well, you get the idea. From steve at holdenweb.com Thu May 3 12:51:15 2007 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 06:51:15 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <463976A6.6000201@v.loewis.de> References: <20070423034439.GC12689@tummy.com> <463976A6.6000201@v.loewis.de> Message-ID: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> Martin v. L?wis wrote: >> Perhaps the PSF or the advocacy group would like to promote this: >> >> http://www.samag.com/ed/call.htm >> http://www.samag.com/ed/calendar.htm >> Proposals Due: 08/01/2007 >> Manuscripts due: 09/01/2007 > > I think the minimum we can do is to promote this, by putting a link > to it on the front page and into the RSS feed. > > Now if anybody wonders whether we should do that to all conferences > and journals that mention Python in their calls: certainly no; there > should some selection happen. However, if members think it should be > promoted (like Sean in this case), that's enough reason for me. > It would be worth a blog entry, perhaps? That would also put it on another feed. I will do this if you think it's a good idea. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden ------------------ Asciimercial --------------------- Get on the web: Blog, lens and tag your way to fame!! holdenweb.blogspot.com squidoo.com/pythonology tagged items: del.icio.us/steve.holden/python All these services currently offer free registration! -------------- Thank You for Reading ---------------- From jafo at tummy.com Thu May 3 13:15:49 2007 From: jafo at tummy.com (Sean Reifschneider) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 05:15:49 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> References: <20070423034439.GC12689@tummy.com> <463976A6.6000201@v.loewis.de> <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> Message-ID: <20070503111549.GO8403@tummy.com> On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 06:51:15AM -0400, Steve Holden wrote: >It would be worth a blog entry, perhaps? That would also put it on >another feed. I will do this if you think it's a good idea. That sounds fine to me. Thanks, Sean -- If not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. -- P. G. Wodehouse Sean Reifschneider, Member of Technical Staff tummy.com, ltd. - Linux Consulting since 1995: Ask me about High Availability From martin at v.loewis.de Thu May 3 07:44:06 2007 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 07:44:06 +0200 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <20070423034439.GC12689@tummy.com> References: <20070423034439.GC12689@tummy.com> Message-ID: <463976A6.6000201@v.loewis.de> > Perhaps the PSF or the advocacy group would like to promote this: > > http://www.samag.com/ed/call.htm > http://www.samag.com/ed/calendar.htm > Proposals Due: 08/01/2007 > Manuscripts due: 09/01/2007 I think the minimum we can do is to promote this, by putting a link to it on the front page and into the RSS feed. Now if anybody wonders whether we should do that to all conferences and journals that mention Python in their calls: certainly no; there should some selection happen. However, if members think it should be promoted (like Sean in this case), that's enough reason for me. Regards, Martin From grig at gheorghiu.net Thu May 3 23:21:37 2007 From: grig at gheorghiu.net (Grig Gheorghiu) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> Message-ID: <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Steve Holden wrote: > It would be worth a blog entry, perhaps? That would also put it on > another feed. I will do this if you think it's a good idea. > I think that with blog entries, you JUST DO IT, without asking :-) Grig From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu May 3 23:43:08 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:43:08 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0705031443o7b75303cp682ea2a5f2fcd2ec@mail.gmail.com> On 5/3/07, Grig Gheorghiu wrote: > --- Steve Holden wrote: > > It would be worth a blog entry, perhaps? That would also put it on > > another feed. I will do this if you think it's a good idea. > > > > I think that with blog entries, you JUST DO IT, without asking :-) > This is a good point, and goes along with something I just recently saw: http://pragdave.pragprog.com/pragdave/2007/05/erlang_blogging.html A Erlang "blogging contest." The winner just gets a book, and some praise. I think praise goes a long way. I remember when daily-python-url started picking up my blog, I was totally ecstatic. I think a cash prize is good, and should be pursued, but really simple editorial "this blog entry is good and deserves praise and attention" could go a long way. That said, I don't know how to implement it. Maybe a "best of the blogs" heading on the python.org site? I know we have planet.python.org, but we certainly could distill "best of." Chris From amk at amk.ca Fri May 4 02:39:59 2007 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:39:59 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <463A7C67.1090407@holdenweb.com> References: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0705031443o7b75303cp682ea2a5f2fcd2ec@mail.gmail.com> <20070503215043.GV8403@tummy.com> <463A7C67.1090407@holdenweb.com> Message-ID: <20070504003959.GA934@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 08:20:55PM -0400, Steve Holden wrote: > Indeed. And an award for "Best Python-Related Blog" might fit nicely > into an awards scheme. We can jig the rules so the same person (or at > least the same blog) isn't eligible to win it each time. We could do a Python carnival, collecting particularly notable posts, but that seems to duplicate what the Daily Python-URL does. --amk From jeffh at dundeemt.com Fri May 4 03:24:05 2007 From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:24:05 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <20070504003959.GA934@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> References: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0705031443o7b75303cp682ea2a5f2fcd2ec@mail.gmail.com> <20070503215043.GV8403@tummy.com> <463A7C67.1090407@holdenweb.com> <20070504003959.GA934@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> Message-ID: <5aaed53f0705031824k5ba51b03m7e00fec957bf85bc@mail.gmail.com> On 5/3/07, A.M. Kuchling wrote: > On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 08:20:55PM -0400, Steve Holden wrote: > > Indeed. And an award for "Best Python-Related Blog" might fit nicely > > into an awards scheme. We can jig the rules so the same person (or at > > least the same blog) isn't eligible to win it each time. > > We could do a Python carnival, collecting particularly notable posts, > but that seems to duplicate what the Daily Python-URL does. > > --amk Since we are brainstorming, I'll throw this in. How about a digg/reddit/delicious style web site dedicated solely to python. The top rated stories would be used in the rss feed. So you could participate by voting or just by monitoring the rss feed of those stories who were ranked highly by the community? Then a community could filter spam, give kudos to important news/stories/blog posts, etc. Most of the python web resources rely on a few people. If the burden could be shifted and dispersed it would probably be a good thing. As an example, there are quite a few python mail lists and blogs that I would like to keep tabs on, but time doesn't permit. However, if there was a filtering method that would let the gems bubble up - I would be able. I would also be willing to rank messages and blog posts that I do read to contribute back. all pie in the sky right now - but an idea. -jeff From jafo at tummy.com Thu May 3 23:50:43 2007 From: jafo at tummy.com (Sean Reifschneider) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:50:43 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0705031443o7b75303cp682ea2a5f2fcd2ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0705031443o7b75303cp682ea2a5f2fcd2ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070503215043.GV8403@tummy.com> On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 04:43:08PM -0500, Chris McAvoy wrote: >I think a cash prize is good, and should be pursued, but really simple >editorial "this blog entry is good and deserves praise and attention" >could go a long way. Good point. That article I wrote on the PyCon network, which I just published on the tummy.com site, has gotten a lot of references from people I know and respect, which is pretty nice. Links from a PSF or advocacy or Python.org could be a nice "attaboy" sort of thing. Thanks, Sean -- Unix actually IS user friendly -- it's just very picky about whom it calls its friend. Sean Reifschneider, Member of Technical Staff tummy.com, ltd. - Linux Consulting since 1995: Ask me about High Availability From steve at holdenweb.com Fri May 4 02:19:09 2007 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 20:19:09 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <463A7BFD.5000001@holdenweb.com> Grig Gheorghiu wrote: > --- Steve Holden wrote: >> It would be worth a blog entry, perhaps? That would also put it on >> another feed. I will do this if you think it's a good idea. >> > > I think that with blog entries, you JUST DO IT, without asking :-) > Already did. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden ------------------ Asciimercial --------------------- Get on the web: Blog, lens and tag your way to fame!! holdenweb.blogspot.com squidoo.com/pythonology tagged items: del.icio.us/steve.holden/python All these services currently offer free registration! -------------- Thank You for Reading ---------------- From steve at holdenweb.com Fri May 4 02:20:55 2007 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 20:20:55 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <20070503215043.GV8403@tummy.com> References: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0705031443o7b75303cp682ea2a5f2fcd2ec@mail.gmail.com> <20070503215043.GV8403@tummy.com> Message-ID: <463A7C67.1090407@holdenweb.com> Sean Reifschneider wrote: > On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 04:43:08PM -0500, Chris McAvoy wrote: >> I think a cash prize is good, and should be pursued, but really simple >> editorial "this blog entry is good and deserves praise and attention" >> could go a long way. > > Good point. That article I wrote on the PyCon network, which I just > published on the tummy.com site, has gotten a lot of references from people > I know and respect, which is pretty nice. Links from a PSF or advocacy or > Python.org could be a nice "attaboy" sort of thing. > Indeed. And an award for "Best Python-Related Blog" might fit nicely into an awards scheme. We can jig the rules so the same person (or at least the same blog) isn't eligible to win it each time. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden ------------------ Asciimercial --------------------- Get on the web: Blog, lens and tag your way to fame!! holdenweb.blogspot.com squidoo.com/pythonology tagged items: del.icio.us/steve.holden/python All these services currently offer free registration! -------------- Thank You for Reading ---------------- From jeff at taupro.com Fri May 4 10:35:37 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 03:35:37 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] lean py in 3 min In-Reply-To: <463A161F.90103@personnelware.com> References: <463A161F.90103@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <463AF059.2070305@taupro.com> Carl Karsten wrote: > Like most mornings, had a thought but this one seemed worth posting. You too, eh? > What if one could could learn python with an insignificant impact on your daily > activities? Roy Smith wrote: > Other than us geeks, most people don't want to learn a language for the > sake of learning a language, they want to do it because it lets them get > something done. True, but there may be something to Carl's idea with respect to existing Python programmers -improving- their skills. For any language there is a wide spread between those those just know enough to get along, and those who have fully mastered the tool. Doug Hellmann has started a "Python Module of the Week" kind of thing. Perhaps a series of learning materials that focus on some aspect of Python - generators, iterators, metaclasses, attributes/properties/descriptors, new 'with:' feature, decimal math - in a short period of time to raise awareness. I'll note these ideas and give it some thought. -Jeff From steve at holdenweb.com Fri May 4 13:06:50 2007 From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 07:06:50 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <5aaed53f0705031824k5ba51b03m7e00fec957bf85bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0705031443o7b75303cp682ea2a5f2fcd2ec@mail.gmail.com> <20070503215043.GV8403@tummy.com> <463A7C67.1090407@holdenweb.com> <20070504003959.GA934@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> <5aaed53f0705031824k5ba51b03m7e00fec957bf85bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <463B13CA.5000006@holdenweb.com> Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: > On 5/3/07, A.M. Kuchling wrote: >> On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 08:20:55PM -0400, Steve Holden wrote: >>> Indeed. And an award for "Best Python-Related Blog" might fit nicely >>> into an awards scheme. We can jig the rules so the same person (or at >>> least the same blog) isn't eligible to win it each time. >> We could do a Python carnival, collecting particularly notable posts, >> but that seems to duplicate what the Daily Python-URL does. >> >> --amk > Since we are brainstorming, I'll throw this in. How about a > digg/reddit/delicious style web site dedicated solely to python. The > top rated stories would be used in the rss feed. So you could > participate by voting or just by monitoring the rss feed of those > stories who were ranked highly by the community? Then a community > could filter spam, give kudos to important news/stories/blog posts, > etc. Most of the python web resources rely on a few people. If the > burden could be shifted and dispersed it would probably be a good > thing. > > As an example, there are quite a few python mail lists and blogs that > I would like to keep tabs on, but time doesn't permit. However, if > there was a filtering method that would let the gems bubble up - I > would be able. I would also be willing to rank messages and blog > posts that I do read to contribute back. > > all pie in the sky right now - but an idea. > Sort of a private Python slashdot without the lame comments from the know-nothings. That's an interesting idea. See the "tagged items" in my .sig and compare with the holdenweb.com front page - we could also use such a system for front-page news. It's all pretty easy with AJAX - no site rebuild is required as the news changes. I just run a script and upload a new file. The voting by "a community" is a most valuable part of this suggestion. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden ------------------ Asciimercial --------------------- Get on the web: Blog, lens and tag your way to fame!! holdenweb.blogspot.com squidoo.com/pythonology tagged items: del.icio.us/steve.holden/python All these services currently offer free registration! -------------- Thank You for Reading ---------------- From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk Fri May 4 16:04:28 2007 From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 15:04:28 +0100 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <463B13CA.5000006@holdenweb.com> References: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0705031443o7b75303cp682ea2a5f2fcd2ec@mail.gmail.com> <20070503215043.GV8403@tummy.com> <463A7C67.1090407@holdenweb.com> <20070504003959.GA934@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> <5aaed53f0705031824k5ba51b03m7e00fec957bf85bc@mail.gmail.com> <463B13CA.5000006@holdenweb.com> Message-ID: <463B3D6C.20208@voidspace.org.uk> Steve Holden wrote: > Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: > >> On 5/3/07, A.M. Kuchling wrote: >> >>> On Thu, May 03, 2007 at 08:20:55PM -0400, Steve Holden wrote: >>> >>>> Indeed. And an award for "Best Python-Related Blog" might fit nicely >>>> into an awards scheme. We can jig the rules so the same person (or at >>>> least the same blog) isn't eligible to win it each time. >>>> >>> We could do a Python carnival, collecting particularly notable posts, >>> but that seems to duplicate what the Daily Python-URL does. >>> >>> --amk >>> >> Since we are brainstorming, I'll throw this in. How about a >> digg/reddit/delicious style web site dedicated solely to python. The >> top rated stories would be used in the rss feed. So you could >> participate by voting or just by monitoring the rss feed of those >> stories who were ranked highly by the community? Then a community >> could filter spam, give kudos to important news/stories/blog posts, >> etc. Most of the python web resources rely on a few people. If the >> burden could be shifted and dispersed it would probably be a good >> thing. >> >> As an example, there are quite a few python mail lists and blogs that >> I would like to keep tabs on, but time doesn't permit. However, if >> there was a filtering method that would let the gems bubble up - I >> would be able. I would also be willing to rank messages and blog >> posts that I do read to contribute back. >> >> all pie in the sky right now - but an idea. >> >> > Sort of a private Python slashdot without the lame comments from the > know-nothings. That's an interesting idea. > > See the "tagged items" in my .sig and compare with the holdenweb.com > front page - we could also use such a system for front-page news. It's > all pretty easy with AJAX - no site rebuild is required as the news > changes. I just run a script and upload a new file. > > The voting by "a community" is a most valuable part of this suggestion. > > I wonder if reddit.com could supply code? It would be good publicity for them and a good way of them supporting the Python community... Alternatively they could just set-up 'python.reddit.com' for us, and we could pickup the top entries with some javascript? Michael Foord > regards > Steve > From jeff at taupro.com Fri May 4 16:18:35 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 09:18:35 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <463B13CA.5000006@holdenweb.com> References: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0705031443o7b75303cp682ea2a5f2fcd2ec@mail.gmail.com> <20070503215043.GV8403@tummy.com> <463A7C67.1090407@holdenweb.com> <20070504003959.GA934@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> <5aaed53f0705031824k5ba51b03m7e00fec957bf85bc@mail.gmail.com> <463B13CA.5000006@holdenweb.com> Message-ID: <463B40BB.4070507@taupro.com> Steve Holden wrote: > Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: >> >> As an example, there are quite a few python mail lists and blogs that >> I would like to keep tabs on, but time doesn't permit. However, if >> there was a filtering method that would let the gems bubble up - I >> would be able. I would also be willing to rank messages and blog >> posts that I do read to contribute back. >> > Sort of a private Python slashdot without the lame comments from the > know-nothings. That's an interesting idea. > > See the "tagged items" in my .sig and compare with the holdenweb.com > front page - we could also use such a system for front-page news. It's > all pretty easy with AJAX - no site rebuild is required as the news > changes. I just run a script and upload a new file. Hmm, interesting, I see what you've done. Remarkably flat del.icio.us keyword set you have there. ;-) I presume you grab all links tagged with "Python", ignoring the other tags? > The voting by "a community" is a most valuable part of this suggestion. Yes, but consider digg.com -- if everyone can vote, it is possible to devolve into some level of chaos at people push their favorites regardless of value. BTW, if anyone cares, my links, with some attempt at keyword organization, are at: http://del.icio.us/xanalogica Don't forget the del.icio.us site allows you to tag items for other people, using their login name. Here in Dallas we use it a lot to share links within the local user group. We could create a generic del.icio.us account that represents the entire community, encourage people to add that tag to items of Pythonic interest, and then run a script like you have to pull down the top N links, along with their descriptive del.icio.us text and stick it on some page on www.python.org. Such shared links could even be further subdivided by whatever other tags are found on them, such as web, events, etc. I'm going to pursue a similar idea, already discussed here a few days ago, of a shared community blog for collecting news from usergroups. -Jeff From carl at personnelware.com Fri May 4 16:25:41 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 09:25:41 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] lean py in 3 min In-Reply-To: <463AF059.2070305@taupro.com> References: <463A161F.90103@personnelware.com> <463AF059.2070305@taupro.com> Message-ID: <463B4265.2070800@personnelware.com> Jeff Rush wrote: > Carl Karsten wrote: >> Like most mornings, had a thought but this one seemed worth posting. > > You too, eh? > >> What if one could could learn python with an insignificant impact on your daily >> activities? > > Roy Smith wrote: >> Other than us geeks, most people don't want to learn a language for the >> sake of learning a language, they want to do it because it lets them get >> something done. > > True, but there may be something to Carl's idea with respect to existing > Python programmers -improving- their skills. For any language there is a wide > spread between those those just know enough to get along, and those who have > fully mastered the tool. Now that you put it that way, I bet there is a huge pool of people that "know some python" but would be happy to bump it up to "know python" (which is what I was for 2 years.) Carl K From amk at amk.ca Fri May 4 17:16:42 2007 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 11:16:42 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] Helping get Python in more publications? In-Reply-To: <463B40BB.4070507@taupro.com> References: <4639BEA3.2080106@holdenweb.com> <59717.45026.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0705031443o7b75303cp682ea2a5f2fcd2ec@mail.gmail.com> <20070503215043.GV8403@tummy.com> <463A7C67.1090407@holdenweb.com> <20070504003959.GA934@andrew-kuchlings-computer.local> <5aaed53f0705031824k5ba51b03m7e00fec957bf85bc@mail.gmail.com> <463B13CA.5000006@holdenweb.com> <463B40BB.4070507@taupro.com> Message-ID: <20070504151642.GA31107@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, May 04, 2007 at 09:18:35AM -0500, Jeff Rush wrote: > the local user group. We could create a generic del.icio.us account that > represents the entire community, encourage people to add that tag to items of > Pythonic interest, and then run a script like you have to pull down the top N > links, along with their descriptive del.icio.us text and stick it on some page I have a script to turn del.icio.us's RSS into entries for each day. This script is used for the LiveJournal mirror of my various weblogs (http://akuchling.livejournal.com/). Let me know if either script would be useful. My Python-related links are at . For a while I had the del.icio.us tag for 'jython' on the planet.jython.org aggregator, but the problem is that includes *everyone's* links. Someone is always discovering say, www.jython.org, and linkblogging it, so the same links always came back day after day. --amk From jeff at taupro.com Thu May 10 15:22:54 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:22:54 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] A Few Questions for the Python Community re Survey Response Message-ID: <46431CAE.1010709@taupro.com> The official Forrester Research survey form on dynamic languages has arrived and as advocacy coordinator, I'm starting to fill it in. Here are some questions on which I could use some input. Please reply via private email, to avoid cluttering the lists and cross-posting issues, and I'll collate all responses. *Note* that we want the survey to address cPython, IronPython and Jython, so add caveats as necessary to your answers. And yes, some of the questions are vague and difficult to answer precisely - let's do our best and remember the objective is to provide practical answers that would be useful to a manager/developer choosing a dynamic language, not to debate terms in an academic sense. 1) Can a developer extend the language by adding new keywords? My answer to this is no, short of recompiling the underlying parser -- with the new AST engine of 2.5, am I wrong? Can Jython or IronPython do it? 2) How large is the on disk runtime that has to be installed to run programs written in this language? I don't run either Jython or IronPython -- can anyone who does provide an answer? And yes, it is a bit unclear as in whether it includes all of Java and .NET or just the delta above those. Go with the delta, it's smaller. 3) What applications are available to developers using this language that support application lifecycle for requirements, design, development, build, and test? 4) How many new major and minor features were added in the last release? Let's assume they mean the last major release. 5) How many committers to the core does the project have relative to the scope of the project? Hmm, how to measure the "scope of the project"? Lines of code in cPython, IronPython and Jython? A rough guess of the class/module count? 6) How many bug reports have there been for the latest release? 7) How many email postings have there been (including developer and user lists) in the past six months? 8) How much communication occurs within the community? Besides email postings, what other forms of communication occur within the community? What forms of collaboration are used? 9) How complete is the language and framework support for Web service standards? Does the language support Core Web Services? Does the language supports Web Service Security standards? Does the language supports Web Services Management standards? Does the language provides Registry and Metadata support? Does the language support Web service Process and Delivery Control standards? Does the language support Web services Transactions and Packaging standards? Not being a web services kind of developer, I need some help here. 10) How many companies offer end user support for the product? Is there one company primarily identified with the project that provides end customer support? Definitely not a single company, like Sun for Java, at least for cPython and Jython. Is Microsoft the primary company providing end-user support for IronPython though? Many of these companies may be members of the PSF, so speak up. 11) How many systems integrators use the language in application development? Considering Python is a secret weapon for many companies, this will be hard. But can anyone provide some anecdotal information? Thank you very much for your time and effort, Jeff Rush Advocacy Coordinator From carl at personnelware.com Thu May 10 15:49:51 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:49:51 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] fun movie Message-ID: <464322FF.2040601@personnelware.com> I just watched all 35 min of: http://oodt.jpl.nasa.gov/better-web-app.mov I had to think for a moment if this was really appropriate for the advocacy list (don't want to flood it with every little tidbit I find) but I think there is more to it than just the content: I really liked the format, and maybe there is something to be learned from the way the subject was presented. It was a combination of screencast and power point. The screencast was not meant to teach, but more to show a level of effort or complexity something took. you see him actually create a project, edit the files, run a web browser, fix the errors - then recap how many lines of code, config files, server restarts, etc. It is fairly high level, talks about RAD, and then tries to compare J2EE, rails, turbo gears and django. It was done in June 06. I have no idea how accurate it was then, or how many of the problems have been fixed, but it is both entertaining and helps define what is important. And says some nice things about Python. Anyway, even if this goes nowhere, it is fun to watch. Carl K From ctrachte at gmail.com Thu May 10 16:42:01 2007 From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 07:42:01 -0700 Subject: [python-advocacy] [IronPython] A Few Questions for the Python Community re Survey Response In-Reply-To: <46431CAE.1010709@taupro.com> References: <46431CAE.1010709@taupro.com> Message-ID: <426ada670705100742g14e3fd8dib5e56b4faa44eed0@mail.gmail.com> Jeff, I don't know if PyPy "counts" as an official Python implementation, but I'm pretty sure you can add new keywords in PyPy (I'm not a PyPy expert, or even a dilettante, but I've seen this capability demo'd at PYCON). Carl T. 1) Can a developer extend the language by adding new keywords? > > My answer to this is no, short of recompiling the underlying parser -- > with > the new AST engine of 2.5, am I wrong? Can Jython or IronPython do it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070510/bd5dd49e/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Thu May 10 18:43:51 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:43:51 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] A Few Questions for the Python Community re Survey Response In-Reply-To: <46431CAE.1010709@taupro.com> References: <46431CAE.1010709@taupro.com> Message-ID: <46434BC7.3040909@personnelware.com> I am not answering questions, just discussing how they should be answered :) The list of questions bothers me. They seem pretty subjective and not relevant to some fuzzy unstated goal. I know 'we' are not in control of this, so bitching won't help fix it, but it may help come up with useful answers. Useful = someone reading results, what will help them pick python if python is really what they should use? Jeff Rush wrote: > The official Forrester Research survey form on dynamic languages has arrived > and as advocacy coordinator, I'm starting to fill it in. Here are some > questions on which I could use some input. Please reply via private email, to > avoid cluttering the lists and cross-posting issues, and I'll collate all > responses. > > *Note* that we want the survey to address cPython, IronPython and Jython, so > add caveats as necessary to your answers. And yes, some of the questions are > vague and difficult to answer precisely - let's do our best and remember the > objective is to provide practical answers that would be useful to a > manager/developer choosing a dynamic language, not to debate terms in an > academic sense. > > 1) Can a developer extend the language by adding new keywords? > > My answer to this is no, short of recompiling the underlying parser -- with > the new AST engine of 2.5, am I wrong? Can Jython or IronPython do it? > Technically, 'yes'. we have the source, and we can propose additions. "no" would pretty much mean the language is closed and frozen. OTOH, is 'yes' a good thing? I think not. keywords are not scoped to a namespace. python's limited keyword set is powerful enough to do what we need to do. So if you assume there is an implied "as easy as adding functions" I would agree with 'no.' That was not an answer because it is conditional :) > > 2) How large is the on disk runtime that has to be installed to run > programs written in this language? > > I don't run either Jython or IronPython -- can anyone who does provide an > answer? And yes, it is a bit unclear as in whether it includes all of Java > and .NET or just the delta above those. Go with the delta, it's smaller. For .net - "has to be installed" is 0, given that "it comes with vista" Same with the mac. > > > 3) What applications are available to developers using this language > that support application lifecycle for requirements, design, > development, build, and test? Typical problem with English: to qualify, does an app need any or all of the features? If all, does such a thing exist for any language? and in the context of this survey, it seems it would have to be exclusive to one language. I just pinged someone who worked for Motorola and now works at a 'big company' where there are about 1000 programmers (mostly java, some python, perl, etc.) who has never heard of anything that covered all that. this came close: http://www.smartbearsoftware.com So if any, write small, cuz it is gong to be a huge list. be sure to include anything that comes close: trac, subversion, mambo/joomla + plugins? this is dumb. Maybe just listing off the popular IDEs? > > > 4) How many new major and minor features were added in the last release? > > Let's assume they mean the last major release. damm English again. do they want one or 2 numbers? who decides major vs minor? Are small or large numbers favorable? > > > 5) How many committers to the core does the project have relative to the > scope of the project? > > Hmm, how to measure the "scope of the project"? Lines of code in cPython, > IronPython and Jython? A rough guess of the class/module count? > Are small or large numbers favorable? > > 6) How many bug reports have there been for the latest release? > ditto. > > 7) How many email postings have there been (including developer and > user lists) in the past six months? 1.3 gazillion. > > > 8) How much communication occurs within the community? lots. > Besides email > postings, what other forms of communication occur within the > community? What forms of collaboration are used? All of them. > > > 9) How complete is the language and framework support for Web service > standards? > > Does the language support Core Web Services? > Does the language supports Web Service Security standards? > Does the language supports Web Services Management standards? > Does the language provides Registry and Metadata support? > Does the language support Web service Process and Delivery > Control standards? > Does the language support Web services Transactions and > Packaging standards? > > Not being a web services kind of developer, I need some help here. I know just enough to say: Someone is buz-word happy - Web Services are not that complicated. you can 'do' all that stuff using python, even if you had to roll your own, and you don't. http://www.diveintopython.org/http_web_services/index.html Copyright ? 2000 (what year are we in now?) > > 10) How many companies offer end user support for the product? Is there > one company primarily identified with the project that provides > end customer support? > > Definitely not a single company, like Sun for Java, at least for cPython and > Jython. Is Microsoft the primary company providing end-user support for > IronPython though? Many of these companies may be members of the PSF, so > speak up. Another dumb question. given that no language (or product) can have some restriction of who can charge for help with it, there is no way to track how many companies are making a buck off of it. the most limited I can imagine would be something like C#: MS, divisions of MS, MS certified professionals (but not MS at all) and people who are just good at it and offer training/support. They might have meant: how many companies are at the tho of the tree, but they didn't say that, and who cares? Maybe there are languages where the number is under 100, like some sf.net project that claims to be a language, or maybe BrainFk that isn't really a used language, so no one would need to be supported. So back to: what would be a favorable answer? is 1,000 enough? It isn't like we need to offer support. > > > 11) How many systems integrators use the language in application development? > > Considering Python is a secret weapon for many companies, this will be hard. > But can anyone provide some anecdotal information? considering there is no way to know the magnitude for any language, I am starting to think you should just forget this whole thing in protest. wtf is a "systems integrator" and an "application" anyway? to me it means "how many people use python?" I vote for 1,000,000. +/- 1,000% > > > Thank you very much for your time and effort, Sorry to waste your time with my ranting :) Carl K From ctrachte at gmail.com Thu May 10 19:17:02 2007 From: ctrachte at gmail.com (Carl Trachte) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:17:02 -0700 Subject: [python-advocacy] [IronPython] A Few Questions for the Python Community re Survey Response In-Reply-To: <426ada670705100742g14e3fd8dib5e56b4faa44eed0@mail.gmail.com> References: <46431CAE.1010709@taupro.com> <426ada670705100742g14e3fd8dib5e56b4faa44eed0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <426ada670705101017u1f69498ds8879e83b8540c485@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, my bad. I didn't see the "limited to cPython, IronPython, and Jython thing until Carl K.'s e-mail. Nevermind. On 5/10/07, Carl Trachte wrote: > > Jeff, > I don't know if PyPy "counts" as an official Python implementation, but > I'm pretty sure you can add new keywords in PyPy (I'm not a PyPy expert, or > even a dilettante, but I've seen this capability demo'd at PYCON). > Carl T. > > > 1) Can a developer extend the language by adding new keywords? > > > > My answer to this is no, short of recompiling the underlying parser -- > > with > > the new AST engine of 2.5, am I wrong? Can Jython or IronPython do it? > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070510/4143a408/attachment.htm From jeff at taupro.com Mon May 14 12:24:52 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 05:24:52 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] A Call for Professional Trainers of Python Message-ID: <464838F4.7080102@taupro.com> I am seeking to organize the list of those, both individuals and companies, who offer training on Python and related frameworks and technologies. This is for those who provide this, typically to businesses, as part of their professional offerings, in order to provide an answer to Forrester Research. They are surveying the various dynamic programming languages and want to know, essentially, how easily can an IT manager get his people trained up on Python in comparison to other languages. There is a wiki page at: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonTraining with some training organizations. If your information is already there *and current*, no response is necessary. But if you are not mentioned, please update that wiki page so we can get an accurate accounting and perhaps send business your way. Thanks, Jeff Rush Python Advocacy Coordinator From jeff at taupro.com Mon May 14 13:12:46 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 06:12:46 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Seeking Four Code Samples for Forrester Research Survey Message-ID: <4648442E.4020201@taupro.com> In working up a response to the survey being conducted by Forrester Research on dynamic languages, there is a section wherein they want to see code samples. The samples must include all code written for the example, and URLs to any frameworks or modules used. Their objective is to see how efficient/elegant the language is for developers. This is one area in which Python should excel. 1) Render a simple Web page containing text, data, and graphics, as specified in this wireframe mockup: http://dfwpython.org/uploads/Forrester/WireframeShot-1.jpg With the myriad number of web frameworks for Python, this is hard but let's pick those a few that are most expressive, as the person evaluating it may not be familiar with Python per se, but be looking for readability. 2) Invoke a simple Web service and format/display the results. This can be either web services or REST, whichever one looks cleanest. 3) Create a mash-up that overlays local temperature data onto a Google map. 4) Create a simple form for data submission with fields and drop down selects and a submit button, as specified in this wireframe mockup. At least one field should be validated. http://dfwpython.org/uploads/Forrester/WireframeShot-2.jpg To help our community's standing in the survey, and perhaps promotion of your favorite web framework, please consider picking one of these or providing a trimmed down example of existing code. Send it via private email to me, and I'll get it included in the survey response. Forrester's deadline to us is by the end of this week, May 18th. Thanks, Jeff Rush Python Advocacy Coordinator From sdeibel at wingware.com Thu May 17 16:03:53 2007 From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 10:03:53 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] O'Reilly computer book sales Message-ID: <464C60C9.6080900@wingware.com> Hi, Andrew Kuchling posted this to another mailing list and I thought it would be interesting here: http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/05/state_of_the_co_10.html My take is "Ruby is the new Java" (The irony of that statement may get lost on a lot of people though ;-) - Stephan From jeff at taupro.com Fri May 18 17:22:07 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:22:07 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] A Few More Forrester Survey Questions Message-ID: <464DC49F.1090608@taupro.com> I'm down to the wire here on answering the Forrester survey but am stumped on a few questions I hope someone can help me out with. 1) What -existing- examples of the use of Python to create social web applications are there? These include chat, collaboration, forum boards, and editable content pages, RSS feeds. I know I use a lot of these, but under pressure I'm not coming up with a lot of names. Can you throw a few my way? 2) How easy is it to install an application written in the language? How is the application deployed? I'm having some trouble understanding the difference between "deployment" and "installation". I suspect those words may have a special meaning to Java developers (who designed the survey) or to Big Corporate IT developers. Ideas? I can tell the story of distutils, python eggs and PyPI, and py2exe and py2mumble for the Mac -- is there more to the story than that? 3) What is the value of the language to developers? Yeah, a very common, slippery question. Toss me some good explanations of why -you- value Python. Readable, free, cross-platform, powerful. What else? I'll synthesize something out of everyone's answers. Thanks for any one-line answers you can dash off to me today. Jeff Rush Python Advocacy Coordinator From amk at amk.ca Fri May 18 17:18:41 2007 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:18:41 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] What to write next? Message-ID: <20070518151841.GA6906@localhost.localdomain> I'd like to take up another writing task from the list at , and am wondering which one would be the highest-priority. "What is Python?" would probably be the most widely useful one -- I bet most of the planned advocacy kits would contain it -- but isn't there already a draft of it among the assets on the advocacy site? I was thinking one of the suggested language comparisons would be most useful... but are the Java or the Ruby ones the most useful at this point in time? Personally I'd lean toward the Java ones -- the Java community is quite large, and getting a tiny percentage of more Jython users is better than heading off a few Ruby users. Or would one of the scientific tasks (matlab comparison, graphing) be better? Jeff, I'm especially interested in what you think, but will listen to everyone's opinion. --amk From lac at openend.se Fri May 18 18:27:58 2007 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 18:27:58 +0200 Subject: [python-advocacy] What to write next? In-Reply-To: Message from "A.M. Kuchling" of "Fri, 18 May 2007 11:18:41 EDT." <20070518151841.GA6906@localhost.localdomain> References: <20070518151841.GA6906@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200705181627.l4IGRw72009384@theraft.openend.se> I vote science. talk to Andrew Dalke about what should go in there. But the others would be good too. Laura From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri May 18 20:29:14 2007 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:29:14 -0700 Subject: [python-advocacy] A Few More Forrester Survey Questions In-Reply-To: <464DC49F.1090608@taupro.com> References: <464DC49F.1090608@taupro.com> Message-ID: <20070518182914.GA13994@panix.com> On Fri, May 18, 2007, Jeff Rush wrote: > > I'm down to the wire here on answering the Forrester survey but am stumped on > a few questions I hope someone can help me out with. > > 1) What -existing- examples of the use of Python to create social > web applications are there? These include chat, collaboration, > forum boards, and editable content pages, RSS feeds. > > I know I use a lot of these, but under pressure I'm not coming > up with a lot of names. Can you throw a few my way? MoinMoin, http://wiki.python.org/ > 3) What is the value of the language to developers? > > Yeah, a very common, slippery question. Toss me some good > explanations of why -you- value Python. Readable, free, > cross-platform, powerful. What else? I'll synthesize > something out of everyone's answers. I'll stick with the old chestnut: "Fits your brain" My perspective is that I've been programming for more than thirty years, but until Python, I never wanted to call myself a programmer because I didn't enjoy programming enough. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From sdeibel at wingware.com Fri May 18 18:34:45 2007 From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:34:45 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] What to write next? In-Reply-To: <20070518151841.GA6906@localhost.localdomain> References: <20070518151841.GA6906@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <464DD5A5.8060608@wingware.com> A.M. Kuchling wrote: > I'd like to take up another writing task from the list at > , and am wondering > which one would be the highest-priority. > > "What is Python?" would probably be the most widely useful one -- I > bet most of the planned advocacy kits would contain it -- but isn't > there already a draft of it among the assets on the advocacy site? This is needed and certainly would be good to update / merge various things out there. > I was thinking one of the suggested language comparisons would be most > useful... but are the Java or the Ruby ones the most useful at this > point in time? Personally I'd lean toward the Java ones -- the Java > community is quite large, and getting a tiny percentage of more Jython > users is better than heading off a few Ruby users. I also think focusing on Java is better... if it's true that Ruby's growth is from people moving away from Java it'll possibly head off a few Ruby users anyway ;-). > Or would one of the scientific tasks (matlab comparison, graphing) be > better? Jeff, I'm especially interested in what you think, but will > listen to everyone's opinion. Python already does pretty well in scientific applications, and that crowd may not respond as well to any sort of additional advocacy material as compared with Java users. - Stephan From brad at allendev.com Sat May 19 07:21:41 2007 From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 00:21:41 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] [dfwPython] A Few More Forrester Survey Questions In-Reply-To: <464DC49F.1090608@taupro.com> References: <464DC49F.1090608@taupro.com> Message-ID: At 10:22 AM -0500 5/18/07, Jeff Rush wrote: >I'm down to the wire here on answering the Forrester survey but am stumped on >a few questions I hope someone can help me out with. > >1) What -existing- examples of the use of Python to create social > web applications are there? These include chat, collaboration, > forum boards, and editable content pages, RSS feeds. > > I know I use a lot of these, but under pressure I'm not coming > up with a lot of names. Can you throw a few my way? I believe youtube.com is written in Python... Trac is a form of social collaboration for technical people working on projects. Obviously Plone is used for a multitude of social collaboration apps... >2) How easy is it to install an application written in the language? > How is the application deployed? > > I'm having some trouble understanding the difference between > "deployment" and "installation". I suspect those words may > have a special meaning to Java developers (who designed the survey) > or to Big Corporate IT developers. Ideas? > > I can tell the story of distutils, python eggs and PyPI, and py2exe > and py2mumble for the Mac -- is there more to the story than that? py2app for Mac There is also the drag & drop approach; many Python apps don't require an installer but can run standalone, especially since many operating systems already include a Python install by default. >3) What is the value of the language to developers? > > Yeah, a very common, slippery question. Toss me some good > explanations of why -you- value Python. Readable, free, > cross-platform, powerful. What else? I'll synthesize > something out of everyone's answers. Learn once, use everywhere: web apps, GUI apps, command line scripts, systems integration glue, wrapping libraries from other languages, Wide range of scale: from quick and dirty tasks to large complex systems. Wide range of skill: accessible to beginners, but supports advanced concepts experienced developers require. Practical syntax which emphasizes elegance and clarity through minimalism Dynamic language features allow high level and flexible design approach, boosting productivity. Robustness - bugs in Python itself are rare due to maturity from long widespread use. No IDE required: you go far with simple text editors, but good IDEs are available. Good community support due to widespread use and open source nature. Great as glue language, due to flexible options for calling external binary apps Mature ecosystem of libraries, both cross platform and platform native, and good options for accessing libraries in other languages. Professional opportunities: Python is in production use in a lot of companies, who realize it costs less than static languages and is more generally useful than PHP or Ruby. The only real competitor is Perl, which can be difficult to manage due to readability problems. Downsides: Poor multithreading support for the multiprocessor age (Kill GIL!) None of the Python web frameworks receive widespread use ala RoR or PHP From brad at allendev.com Sat May 19 07:46:42 2007 From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 00:46:42 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] virtual servers for Python user groups Message-ID: What do you think of the idea of PSF funding hosted virtual servers for user groups? A virtual server could be managed by a volunteer representative of the local user group, so PSF's only involvement would be the initial setup and paying the ongoing bill. This would give user groups a place for things like secure SVN hosting, Trac for project management, and user group website, etc... In the Dallas user group, we benefit from Jeff Rush donating the user of his colocated server, but not every user group has someone that can contribute a server. Making a similar resource available to any Python user group could enable real action and growth. Recently I visited the newly re-forming Python user group in Portland, OR, which had a meeting at BarCamp, and we discussed the virtual server idea. One of the members said he had an interest in helping PSF pilot test projects to help bolster user groups, and I think there would be no difficulty in finding someone to take on sysadmin chores for a user group virtual server. The Portland group would be a good testbed for seeing what PSF user group assistance can do, because the group is in the process of re-establishing after a period of inactivity. I suspect Portland could sustain a very large and active Python user group if they could get the right resources assembled. From grig at gheorghiu.net Sat May 19 07:50:50 2007 From: grig at gheorghiu.net (Grig Gheorghiu) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 22:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [python-advocacy] virtual servers for Python user groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <372338.33466.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Strong +1 from me. I organize the SoCal Piggies group with Titus Brown, and we both donate server capacity and bandwidth to the group. A PSF-sponsored virtual host would be nice. Grig --- Brad Allen wrote: > What do you think of the idea of PSF funding hosted virtual servers > for user groups? A virtual server could be managed by a volunteer > representative of the local user group, so PSF's only involvement > would be the initial setup and paying the ongoing bill. This would > give user groups a place for things like secure SVN hosting, Trac for > > project management, and user group website, etc... > > In the Dallas user group, we benefit from Jeff Rush donating the user > > of his colocated server, but not every user group has someone that > can contribute a server. Making a similar resource available to any > Python user group could enable real action and growth. > > Recently I visited the newly re-forming Python user group in > Portland, OR, which had a meeting at BarCamp, and we discussed the > virtual server idea. One of the members said he had an interest in > helping PSF pilot test projects to help bolster user groups, and I > think there would be no difficulty in finding someone to take on > sysadmin chores for a user group virtual server. > > The Portland group would be a good testbed for seeing what PSF user > group assistance can do, because the group is in the process of > re-establishing after a period of inactivity. I suspect Portland > could sustain a very large and active Python user group if they could > > get the right resources assembled. > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com Sat May 19 09:00:34 2007 From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 17:00:34 +1000 Subject: [python-advocacy] virtual servers for Python user groups In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0705182255m1de73009j8a81456d036b73ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <372338.33466.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43c8685c0705182255m1de73009j8a81456d036b73ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43c8685c0705190000m56a3d4a9qfe97de670360317c@mail.gmail.com> Trying again... On 5/19/07, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > > +1 from me. > > Also would recommend a "meta" user group to monitor and keep in touch with > groups making use of this service. A simple system like a Google Group > should be plenty. There is a lack of 'play areas' for putting Python web > apps. > > -T > > On 5/19/07, Grig Gheorghiu wrote: > > > > Strong +1 from me. I organize the SoCal Piggies group with Titus Brown, > > and we both donate server capacity and bandwidth to the group. A > > PSF-sponsored virtual host would be nice. > > > > Grig > > > > --- Brad Allen < brad at allendev.com> wrote: > > > > > What do you think of the idea of PSF funding hosted virtual servers > > > for user groups? A virtual server could be managed by a volunteer > > > representative of the local user group, so PSF's only involvement > > > would be the initial setup and paying the ongoing bill. This would > > > give user groups a place for things like secure SVN hosting, Trac for > > > > > > project management, and user group website, etc... > > > > > > In the Dallas user group, we benefit from Jeff Rush donating the user > > > > > > of his colocated server, but not every user group has someone that > > > can contribute a server. Making a similar resource available to any > > > Python user group could enable real action and growth. > > > > > > Recently I visited the newly re-forming Python user group in > > > Portland, OR, which had a meeting at BarCamp, and we discussed the > > > virtual server idea. One of the members said he had an interest in > > > helping PSF pilot test projects to help bolster user groups, and I > > > think there would be no difficulty in finding someone to take on > > > sysadmin chores for a user group virtual server. > > > > > > The Portland group would be a good testbed for seeing what PSF user > > > group assistance can do, because the group is in the process of > > > re-establishing after a period of inactivity. I suspect Portland > > > could sustain a very large and active Python user group if they could > > > > > > get the right resources assembled. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Advocacy mailing list > > > Advocacy at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocacy mailing list > > Advocacy at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070519/efdf845c/attachment-0001.html From brad at allendev.com Sat May 19 09:16:28 2007 From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 02:16:28 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] virtual servers for Python user groups In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0705182255m1de73009j8a81456d036b73ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <372338.33466.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43c8685c0705182255m1de73009j8a81456d036b73ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:55 PM +1000 5/19/07, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: >+1 from me. > >Also would recommend a "meta" user group to monitor and keep in >touch with groups making use of this service. A simple system like a >Google Group should be plenty. There is a lack of 'play areas' for >putting Python web apps. It appears that such a mailing list on python.org has already been created by Jeff Rush: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers It's a new list, with no postings; hopefully we can attract user group organizers to join and compare notes, to learn what other groups are doing, and to provide mutual support. From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com Sat May 19 07:55:43 2007 From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 15:55:43 +1000 Subject: [python-advocacy] virtual servers for Python user groups In-Reply-To: <372338.33466.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <372338.33466.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43c8685c0705182255m1de73009j8a81456d036b73ed@mail.gmail.com> +1 from me. Also would recommend a "meta" user group to monitor and keep in touch with groups making use of this service. A simple system like a Google Group should be plenty. There is a lack of 'play areas' for putting Python web apps. -T On 5/19/07, Grig Gheorghiu wrote: > > Strong +1 from me. I organize the SoCal Piggies group with Titus Brown, > and we both donate server capacity and bandwidth to the group. A > PSF-sponsored virtual host would be nice. > > Grig > > --- Brad Allen wrote: > > > What do you think of the idea of PSF funding hosted virtual servers > > for user groups? A virtual server could be managed by a volunteer > > representative of the local user group, so PSF's only involvement > > would be the initial setup and paying the ongoing bill. This would > > give user groups a place for things like secure SVN hosting, Trac for > > > > project management, and user group website, etc... > > > > In the Dallas user group, we benefit from Jeff Rush donating the user > > > > of his colocated server, but not every user group has someone that > > can contribute a server. Making a similar resource available to any > > Python user group could enable real action and growth. > > > > Recently I visited the newly re-forming Python user group in > > Portland, OR, which had a meeting at BarCamp, and we discussed the > > virtual server idea. One of the members said he had an interest in > > helping PSF pilot test projects to help bolster user groups, and I > > think there would be no difficulty in finding someone to take on > > sysadmin chores for a user group virtual server. > > > > The Portland group would be a good testbed for seeing what PSF user > > group assistance can do, because the group is in the process of > > re-establishing after a period of inactivity. I suspect Portland > > could sustain a very large and active Python user group if they could > > > > get the right resources assembled. > > _______________________________________________ > > Advocacy mailing list > > Advocacy at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070519/fa0337cd/attachment.html From jeffh at dundeemt.com Sat May 19 17:06:33 2007 From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T) Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 10:06:33 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] virtual servers for Python user groups In-Reply-To: References: <372338.33466.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <43c8685c0705182255m1de73009j8a81456d036b73ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5aaed53f0705190806y1d84bcfbg2d91cd592c895c4@mail.gmail.com> On 5/19/07, Brad Allen wrote: > At 3:55 PM +1000 5/19/07, Tennessee Leeuwenburg wrote: > >+1 from me. > > > >Also would recommend a "meta" user group to monitor and keep in > >touch with groups making use of this service. A simple system like a > >Google Group should be plenty. There is a lack of 'play areas' for > >putting Python web apps. > > It appears that such a mailing list on python.org has already been > created by Jeff Rush: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers > > It's a new list, with no postings; hopefully we can attract user > group organizers to join and compare notes, to learn what other > groups are doing, and to provide mutual support. > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > +1 from me. To date, we've been using the wiki as web space, it has been a good starting point, but it would be nice to have a virtual server for each users group for the afore mentioned activities. Not that I'm against google/yahoo type resources, but for Users Groups I prefer not requiring membership in a given email system to use the resources. It leads to an unnecessary and unwanted proliferation of email accounts, diminishing the value of each. Also, some members have strong feelings about the use of these types of email services and their privacy -- I'm not arguing the pro or con of this, it's that I respect their opinions and I want to use services that don't require one to have a google/yahoo/et al email account to take advantage of them. To that end, I've taken advantage of the email list hosted by python.org and the wiki space. A virtual server for the group would be a valuable resource, especially if it is grouped with other UG servers -- who knows what kinds of wonderful resources might bloom because of it? -- Jeff Hinrichs www.OmahaPython.org From facundobatista at gmail.com Mon May 21 19:08:48 2007 From: facundobatista at gmail.com (Facundo Batista) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 14:08:48 -0300 Subject: [python-advocacy] virtual servers for Python user groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2007/5/19, Brad Allen : > What do you think of the idea of PSF funding hosted virtual servers > for user groups? A virtual server could be managed by a volunteer > representative of the local user group, so PSF's only involvement +1. PythonArgentina website and everything actually runs on a loaned server from a friendly enterprise here. It'd be great to have a virtual server funded by PSF. Regards, -- . Facundo Blog: http://www.taniquetil.com.ar/plog/ PyAr: http://www.python.org/ar/ From goodger at python.org Mon May 21 23:07:12 2007 From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 17:07:12 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] virtual servers for Python user groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46520A00.9050808@python.org> [Brad Allen] > What do you think of the idea of PSF funding hosted virtual servers > for user groups? If well executed, it sounds like a good idea. This is what someone needs to do: Write up a proposal, with full details: * who the server/service is for (both in the abstract and concrete, e.g. names) * what it consists of * where & how the server/service will be physically hosted * how will it be managed * who will manage & maintain it (names) * what URLs would it use (*.groups.python.org? groups.python.org/*? Other?) * how much it will cost (initially and as it scales) Submit the proposal to the PSF Board of Directors (psf-board at python.org). > A virtual server could be managed by a volunteer > representative of the local user group, so PSF's only involvement > would be the initial setup and paying the ongoing bill. This would > give user groups a place for things like secure SVN hosting, Trac for > project management, and user group website, etc... Writing as a PSF director, I could see myself voting for such a proposal, but only if it didn't add to the workload of the Board (all volunteers). We don't have many spare cycles, and don't want to take on more projects. I don't think we'd want to do more than approve a proposal, cut a check (or set up payments), and review progress reports. IOW, a management structure is essential. I'm concerned that multiple virtual servers may be expensive and difficult to manage. Then again, maybe I'm wrong, and multiple virtual servers will have economies of scale. Tummy.com may be a good host. I look forward to seeing a proposal. David Goodger PSF Director & Secretary > In the Dallas user group, we benefit from Jeff Rush donating the user > of his colocated server, but not every user group has someone that > can contribute a server. Making a similar resource available to any > Python user group could enable real action and growth. > > Recently I visited the newly re-forming Python user group in > Portland, OR, which had a meeting at BarCamp, and we discussed the > virtual server idea. One of the members said he had an interest in > helping PSF pilot test projects to help bolster user groups, and I > think there would be no difficulty in finding someone to take on > sysadmin chores for a user group virtual server. > > The Portland group would be a good testbed for seeing what PSF user > group assistance can do, because the group is in the process of > re-establishing after a period of inactivity. I suspect Portland > could sustain a very large and active Python user group if they could > get the right resources assembled. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 249 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070521/1fe10ac4/attachment.pgp From mtobis at gmail.com Wed May 23 19:47:01 2007 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:47:01 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] education as killer app Message-ID: Is education Python's killer app? I think it could be. I used the occasion of the Python Papers to motivate my efforts to explain this idea, and you can see what I came up with here on pages 8-15. The part that makes me especially queasy is the CP4E section on pages 10-11. I wish I had more to say there. It's fairly clear to those of us who weren't there that there were some problems, but it's not especially clear what they were or what we should learn from them. I'd very much appreciate input from those who were actually there! Anyway http://tinyurl.com/yr62r3 seems to short-circuit some pointless hoop-jumping to get you to the article. If that doesn't work, try going to http://pyjournal.cgpublisher.com/ and looking for the spring 2007 edition. I suggest a concerted effort by the community toward leveraging the OLPC/Sugar momentum to revive the idea of Python as tool for teaching some programming as a useful part of universal education. mt From carl at personnelware.com Wed May 23 20:20:13 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 13:20:13 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] education as killer app In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465485DD.80407@personnelware.com> Michael Tobis wrote: > Is education Python's killer app? I think it could be. This guy has similar feelings: http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh - Dr. Andrew Harrington associate professor in the Department of Computer Sciences at Loyola University of Chicago. Recent Writing: Hands-on Python Tutorials http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh/python/hands-on Carl K From sdeibel at wingware.com Fri May 25 16:44:21 2007 From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 10:44:21 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] Notable testimonial Message-ID: <4656F645.4010802@wingware.com> Hi, Here's a nice testimonial for Python, which I figured I'd post here: http://www.devchix.com/2007/05/24/beautiful-python-the-programming-language-that-taught-me-how-to-love-again/ Note that it's written by a woman -- I mention that 'cause the lack of women in IT in general, and in the Python world in particular, has come up so often at recent PyCons and in the PSF. - Stephan From jeff at taupro.com Sat May 26 10:46:25 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 03:46:25 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> Michael Tobis wrote: > Is education Python's killer app? I think it could be. > > I used the occasion of the Python Papers to motivate my efforts to > explain this idea, and you can see what I came up with on pages > 8-15. Michael, thanks for writing for the Python Papers. I found your article quite interesting. I would ask though, of what education are you thinking? I mean, there is the use of Python to teach programming, and there is the teaching of other topics but using Python to do it. And there is the teaching of children versus adults, although a case can be made for some degree of overlap there. Much of the effort I've seen is to teach programming, but the OLPC project has intrigued me more to consider non-programming topics. Since I hang out mostly with other programmers, this is challenging. > I suggest a concerted effort by the community toward leveraging the > OLPC/Sugar momentum to revive the idea of Python as tool for teaching > some programming as a useful part of universal education. While there are those who enjoy solving abstract problems, programming or otherwise, if seems to me that if we're going to tackle CP4E (computer programming for everyone, for those not aware of the history), we have to make programming not the end-goal but the tool for doing the things in which those people are interested. CP4E will never make the vast majority of people programming geeks. So it seems to me that it would advance the cause, of programming in general and Python specifically, if a repository of resources were assembled. I'm sure some of these exist scattered across the net but some I've never been able to find. And non-programmers can be so impatient in rummaging through sites, understandably wanting to get on with solving their problem. I tossed together a very rough wiki page of some ideas I've been kicking around. These resources attempt to answer a response I get frequently when I push the learning of Python, that of "but what would I -do- with Python once I learned it?". http://wiki.python.org/moin/Advocacy/ProgrammingForNewprogrammers I call that group "new programmers" - somehow calling them normal or average folk seems mildly insulting to someone, and calling them "non-programmers" isn't accurate if our goal is to teach them programming, albeit non-vocational style. "Non-professional programmers"? "Typical" people? "Making People Programming-Literate"? -Jeff From jeff at taupro.com Sat May 26 13:18:43 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 06:18:43 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Article Sighting about Python Uptake Message-ID: <46581793.9080309@taupro.com> In Enterprise OpenSource Magazine: "Am I Seeing Python Everywhere? (Or is it just my imagination)" May 7, 2007 http://opensource.sys-con.com/read/368040.htm Digg it! Only 2 people have so far. -Jeff From jeff at taupro.com Sat May 26 14:33:29 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 07:33:29 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Forrester Research Survey Answers for Review Message-ID: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> Whew! I've finished filling out the survey response to Forrester Research and it was much harder than I expected. I'll be delivering it to them on Tuesday morning, so I'm making it available online to the community for correction and final input. http://dfwpython.org/uploads/Forrester/forrester-survey.txt At this stage I'm looking for blatant errors, embarrassing claims and overlooked significant features. Some of the questions called for an essay answer but I'm only permitted a few paragraphs and had to boil matters down quite a big. Anyway, if anyone is around this holiday weekend, I'd appreciate a quick skim, especially by anyone associated with Jython or IronPython, as I might have misunderstood something and made claims that aren't precisely accurate. It goes into a spreadsheet and the cell numbers are next to each response, so you can refer to those. I think afterward I may turn this into a whitepaper, with somewhat expanded answers, to recycle the effort. -Jeff From roy at panix.com Sat May 26 14:35:03 2007 From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 08:35:03 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] Article Sighting about Python Uptake In-Reply-To: <46581793.9080309@taupro.com> References: <46581793.9080309@taupro.com> Message-ID: We're up to 5 now. Is there a Python module that knows how to read captchas? :-) On May 26, 2007, at 7:18 AM, Jeff Rush wrote: > In Enterprise OpenSource Magazine: > > "Am I Seeing Python Everywhere? > (Or is it just my imagination)" > > May 7, 2007 > > http://opensource.sys-con.com/read/368040.htm > > > Digg it! Only 2 people have so far. > > -Jeff > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy -- roy at panix.com From roy at panix.com Sat May 26 15:05:20 2007 From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 09:05:20 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] Forrester Research Survey Answers for Review In-Reply-To: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> References: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> Message-ID: <2DCDE638-EAA8-4553-A6B0-E395D8EB393C@panix.com> My first comment is that this is an excellent document, and obviously the product of a large amount of effort. Thank you for doing this! Regarding F14, "This is reflected in its use of whitespace indentation for enhanced readability, and freeing the developer from repetition by avoiding type predeclarations" I'm not sure where it fits, but you might want to mention retrospection. I'm currently working with a C++ unit test framework which requires me to type the name of each test case FOUR times (once for the prototype, once the definition of the function implementing it, once for where it is printed out when the test runs, and once to register the test to run). Because Python has introspection, a framework like unittest lets you type it just once. The ratio of real code that does something useful to the total number of lines you have to type is several times higher in Python. F66: History How mature is the language? You might want to mention backwards compatibility, i.e. that something written in 1.5 (7 years ago now?) will run on any newer version of the interpreter. On May 26, 2007, at 8:33 AM, Jeff Rush wrote: > Whew! I've finished filling out the survey response to Forrester > Research and > it was much harder than I expected. I'll be delivering it to them > on Tuesday > morning, so I'm making it available online to the community for > correction and > final input. > > http://dfwpython.org/uploads/Forrester/forrester-survey.txt > > At this stage I'm looking for blatant errors, embarrassing claims and > overlooked significant features. Some of the questions called for > an essay > answer but I'm only permitted a few paragraphs and had to boil > matters down > quite a big. > > Anyway, if anyone is around this holiday weekend, I'd appreciate a > quick skim, > especially by anyone associated with Jython or IronPython, as I > might have > misunderstood something and made claims that aren't precisely > accurate. It > goes into a spreadsheet and the cell numbers are next to each > response, so you > can refer to those. > > I think afterward I may turn this into a whitepaper, with somewhat > expanded > answers, to recycle the effort. > > -Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy -- roy at panix.com From lac at openend.se Sat May 26 21:53:03 2007 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 21:53:03 +0200 Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app In-Reply-To: Message from Jeff Rush of "Sat, 26 May 2007 03:46:25 CDT." <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> References: <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> Message-ID: <200705261953.l4QJr3GY013577@theraft.openend.se> In a message of Sat, 26 May 2007 03:46:25 CDT, Jeff Rush writes: >I call that group "new programmers" - somehow calling them normal or average >folk seems mildly insulting to someone, and calling them "non-programmers" >isn't accurate if our goal is to teach them programming, albeit non-vocational >style. "Non-professional programmers"? "Typical" people? "Making People" >Programming-Literate"? > >-Jeff I think the word you are looking for is "amateur". Unfortunately it has bad connotations for some people. So I think rather than focusing on the _people_ and labelling _them_ we should focus on the code and label _that_. Amateur programs? Do-It-Yourself programs? Home automation? Practical Programming? Laura From lac at openend.se Sun May 27 07:47:59 2007 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 07:47:59 +0200 Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app In-Reply-To: Message from Jeff Rush of "Sat, 26 May 2007 03:46:25 CDT." <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> References: <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> Message-ID: <200705270547.l4R5lxIl025640@theraft.openend.se> In a message of Sat, 26 May 2007 03:46:25 CDT, Jeff Rush writes: > http://wiki.python.org/moin/Advocacy/ProgrammingForNewprogrammers > >I call that group "new programmers" - somehow calling them normal or average >folk seems mildly insulting to someone, and calling them "non-programmers" >isn't accurate if our goal is to teach them programming, albeit non-vocational >style. "Non-professional programmers"? "Typical" people? "Making People >Programming-Literate"? > >-Jeff Dorai Thodla suggests 'beginners'. And perhaps that would work. But my initial reaction was negative. It may simply be that I find the labelling of people that distasteful. In my world, labelling is well-associated with building rigid and discriminatory class structures,though 'beginner' seems relatively free of this particular poison. But that may be its own rub. 'Beginner' is a stage which one goes through on the way to something else, while I think that Jeff is looking for something that could well be permanent -- what Anna Martelli Ravenscroft called (calls?) 'for the rest of us'. She too was stuck on the 'but what would I do with it' question. The thing is that this sort of thing seems to be orthagonal to becoming a professional programmer. I know some professional programmers who don't think that programming is fun. They only do it for work, when they are paid for it. (Admittedly, they don't use python). So they don't have a box of helpful programs they have written over time to automate some tedium out of their lives, even though they are well equipped with the skills to do so. But most of us have these quick hacks lying all around. And they are the sort of thing that could appeal to professional programmers and non-programmers alike, because they solve the sort of probelms that everybody has, not the sort that only professional software developers call 'work'. Laura From steven.bethard at gmail.com Sat May 26 18:24:34 2007 From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 10:24:34 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Forrester Research Survey Answers for Review In-Reply-To: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> References: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> Message-ID: On 5/26/07, Jeff Rush wrote: > Whew! I've finished filling out the survey response to Forrester Research and > it was much harder than I expected. I'll be delivering it to them on Tuesday > morning, so I'm making it available online to the community for correction and > final input. > > http://dfwpython.org/uploads/Forrester/forrester-survey.txt Thanks for doing this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- F22: Generics Does the language support use of generics or "duck" typing? "Duck" typing refers to the explicit testing of argument types and inheritance relationships to control behavior. [snip] This testing, as stated, is explicit and there is an ongoing research effort to provide conventional generics, making the dispatch mechanism more implicit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- That seems misleading to me. "Duck" typing doesn't require explicit testing of anything. According to the Wikipedia article you linked to, "duck typing is a principle of dynamic typing in which an object's interface and attributes determine valid semantics" and in Python "it typically employs hasattr() tests or EAFP (Easier to Ask Forgiveness than Permission) programming". In particular that latter one means you *don't* make an explicit test -- instead, you catch the exception. I think I would have written this section more like: "Duck" typing allows an object to be interchangeable with any other object so long as they both implement sufficiently compatible interfaces. The term was coined by a Python developer and the technique is a very common one in the community. Python also supports a number of different implementations of generic functions. Python core supports specific generic functions (like the one for counting the number of items in a container) which are extended by defining an appropriately named method on an object. Beyond these specific, language-defined generic functions, a variety of community modules are available for defining a wider variety of generic functions, including simplegeneric and Peak Rules. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_typing http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/simplegeneric http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/RulesReadme ---------------------------------------------------------------------- F32: Is it possible to compile applications into binary or byte code for performance or packaging reasons? [snip] There are several binary compilers for Python, the most well-known of which is Psyco. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Is Psyco a binary compiler? From the Psyco page: "Psyco is a Just-In-Time Specializer, not really a compiler at all.". It does emit machine code though, I guess... Might be worth mentioning Shed Skin (http://mark.dufour.googlepages.com/) which compiles Python to C++ (which can then be compiled to binary). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Support for Web-centric apps ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I expected Django, TurboGearsand Pylons to all be mentioned somewhere in here. I don't really understand the questions well enough to suggest where, but at PyCon, these seemed to be the leading web frameworks (in addition to Zope, which is already mentioned). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- F57: Support for relational data binding Does the language support mapping relational data into language constructs? Yes, the community has developed a specification (DB-API 2) for interfacing Python to relational databases. In addition, there are two mature frameworks, SQLAlchemy and SQLObject, for mapping relational concepts onto the Python object module. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Might also be worth mentioning Django which has another API for mapping relation concepts to objects. http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/db-api/ STeVe -- I'm not *in*-sane. Indeed, I am so far *out* of sane that you appear a tiny blip on the distant coast of sanity. --- Bucky Katt, Get Fuzzy From arigo at tunes.org Sun May 27 18:07:45 2007 From: arigo at tunes.org (Armin Rigo) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 18:07:45 +0200 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Forrester Research Survey Answers for Review In-Reply-To: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> References: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> Message-ID: <20070527160745.GB13395@code0.codespeak.net> Hi Jeff, On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 07:33:29AM -0500, Jeff Rush wrote: > http://dfwpython.org/uploads/Forrester/forrester-survey.txt > F34: Support for concurrent execution > > In version 2.5 of Python, its generator functions were made > bidirectional, providing support for full coroutines. That's wrong by any definition of coroutine I know of. The extensions in Python 2.5 don't give anything essentially new over generators, and not all coroutines are generators; you still have to use something else, like Stackless Python, in order to get general coroutines. A bientot, Armin. From jafo at tummy.com Sun May 27 23:31:33 2007 From: jafo at tummy.com (Sean Reifschneider) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 15:31:33 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Forrester Research Survey Answers for Review In-Reply-To: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> References: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> Message-ID: <20070527213133.GA12205@tummy.com> On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 07:33:29AM -0500, Jeff Rush wrote: >Whew! I've finished filling out the survey response to Forrester Research and >up to subclassing of Java classes and being subclassed by Java classes. I don't like this wording. How about "even allowing Python and Java classes to inherit from each-other"? Maybe just use the same wording as .NET so that it doesn't seem they're different, unless they are. F14: I'd turn the order of the paragraphs around, with some slight re-wording: Python is famous for being easy to understand by humans. It has been said its source is like executable pseudo-code similar to what you find in textbooks. This makes it very easy to translate textbook algorithms directly into Python. Python makes conservative use of punctuation, using it in the conventional manner of operators common in the industry. It relies more upon its keywords for its syntax and has a philosophy of reducing unnecessary variability, by offering a single obvious way to code a particular construct. This is reflected in its use of whitespace indentation for enhanced readability, and freeing the developer from repetition by avoiding type predeclarations. Basically, answering the question quickly, and leaving eye-glazing details after that. The other way around made me just want to skip to the next question. F15: Again, let's try turning this around: Python provides a high level of component abstraction, making code reuse very easy. Python also provides a comprehensive standard library of common code developed by others. A "Cookbook" of algorithms and extensive third-party developed libraries is also available, allowing developers to reuse other developers work. Additionally, Python supports a powerful implementation of library modules, arranged into a heirarchy of namespaces and search paths. I like the cheeseshop reference here, but it could possibly go or be shortened with F16 covering much of the same ground. I like the reiteration of the point though. F16: Looks pretty good, but I'd be inclined to start it off with "Python provides an extensive standard library, with reference and topic guide available online." Making the reference to the standard library more specific and obvious. F18: Nice. F19: Looks good. F20: I'd change "Another example would be" to "Another example is" F21: Looks good. F22: I'd turn the first paragraph around. "The phrase "duck typing" was coined by a Python developer, so it is no surprise that Python excels in this area." that sort of thing right up front. F23 and F24: Looking good. Sorry, I've got to run now. I'll try to do some more review soon. Sean -- "I want to see more of you around the lab." "Fine. I'll gain weight." -- Chris Knight, _Real_Genius_ Sean Reifschneider, Member of Technical Staff tummy.com, ltd. - Linux Consulting since 1995: Ask me about High Availability From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun May 27 17:04:03 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 08:04:03 -0700 Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app In-Reply-To: <200705270547.l4R5lxIl025640@theraft.openend.se> References: <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> <200705270547.l4R5lxIl025640@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: > But that may be its own rub. 'Beginner' is a stage which one goes through > on the way to something else, while I think that Jeff is looking for > something that could well be permanent -- what Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > called (calls?) 'for the rest of us'. She too was stuck on the 'but > what would I do with it' question. > I use the word "tourist" a lot, and I think computer world is so huge that we're all tourists in big parts of it, when we wander far afield (to be encouraged -- changes are we bring back new insights, or maybe even move the home office). A tourist in Python Nation might be a high mucky muck in the Republic of Perl (they actually have their own names for these things). Probably another reason I like "tourist" is that one generally treats them well, offers guidebooks, guides, opportunities for recreation and entertainment. We know that tourists are somewhat out of their depth and don't hold it against 'em. However, I also use "gnubee" (aka "newbie") because of the "gnu" inflection mixed with the "busy bee" connotation -- plus bees are cross-pollinators, wanderers, another big meme with me... Science would be ruined if it were to withdraw entirely into narrowly defined specialties. The rare scholars who are wanderers-by-choice are essential to the intellectual welfare of the settled disciplines -- Benoit Mandelbrot You can maybe see the "wanderer = tourist" equation lurking in the above. And when you're not a tourist anymore, what are you? Maybe a neighbor, a local, or "on staff" in some way -- different terms apply, depending on the namespace. I've you're a master of Python, you might be a snake charmer in my book. Kirby From kirby.urner at gmail.com Sun May 27 17:21:35 2007 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 08:21:35 -0700 Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app In-Reply-To: References: <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> <200705270547.l4R5lxIl025640@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: I'm obviously a tourist in the English language this AM. Let me elaborate slightly while fixing a few typos: > I use the word "tourist" a lot, and I think computer world is so huge > that we're all tourists in big parts of it, when we wander far afield > (to be encouraged -- changes are we bring back new insights, or > maybe even move the home office). "-- chances are..." There's a lot of security in having a job title and a place in some pecking order sometimes, and tourists, especially if traveling alone, have to put up with being "incognito" for long spells. Yet this ability to become humble without suffering humiliation, mortal without becoming mortified, is a key to restarting one's career and/or moving into a new space, new skills. A little humiliation and mortification is even OK -- goes with being a tourist. I've always felt that computer skills in themselves promote a kind of tourism, in that people in so many walkx of life need their computers programmed. Looking back on a long career, it's amazing where I've been tasked to write code, including in the Kingdom of Bhutan, where I also taught generic xBase skills (another language I use a lot, originally marketed as dBase). > > A tourist in Python Nation might be a high mucky muck in the > Republic of Perl (they actually have their own names for these > things). > "Monks" are pretty high level right? > Science would be ruined if it were to withdraw entirely into > narrowly defined specialties. The rare scholars who are > wanderers-by-choice are essential to the intellectual welfare > of the settled disciplines > > -- Benoit Mandelbrot > See: wwwanderers.org > apply, depending on the namespace. I've you're a master of > Python, you might be a snake charmer in my book. > > Kirby "IF you're a master..." blah blah. Kirby From jafo at tummy.com Mon May 28 06:54:17 2007 From: jafo at tummy.com (Sean Reifschneider) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 22:54:17 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] [PSF-Members] Forrester Research Survey Answers for Review In-Reply-To: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> References: <46582919.8010503@taupro.com> Message-ID: <20070528045417.GB12205@tummy.com> On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 07:33:29AM -0500, Jeff Rush wrote: >Whew! I've finished filling out the survey response to Forrester Research and Continuing: F27: There's a missing closing paren at the end. F32: I'd remove the "implementation detail" part, as you do start describing the available options. F36: By "is an implementation detail" do you actually mean "varies based for cPython, Jython and Iron Python."? F37: Just for reference, my /usr/bin/python is 5.5KB, and /usr/lib/libpython.so is 1.2MB. On an x86_64 box, it's 8.5B and 1.5MB. For Fedora 7, the whole RPM including the interpreter and standard library is 5.8MB, compressed. F39: "Delicious." should be "Delicious,", comma instead of dot. F40: Doesn't Zope provide some workflow libraries? I don't know anything about it, and so it's probably too late to have this little detail, but: http://wiki.zope.org/ZopeOrgCollaborationEnhancement/WorkFlow http://www.zopemag.com/Issue001/Section_Tutorials/tutorial_metaflow_01.html http://thesis.romanofski.de/ch03.html F44: "written in and extensible using Python" ? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ F45: ", and web frameworks" ? ^^^ That's about all the time I've got for reviewing this weekend I think. I'll see if I can do anything more but I'm not expecting so. Thanks for the great work on it, Jeff. Thanks, Sean -- Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see. -- Arthur Schopenhauer Sean Reifschneider, Member of Technical Staff tummy.com, ltd. - Linux Consulting since 1995: Ask me about High Availability From kryswilken at gmail.com Mon May 28 13:23:46 2007 From: kryswilken at gmail.com (Krys Wilken) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 07:23:46 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] Forrester Research Survey Answers for Review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200705280723.46921.kryswilken@gmail.com> Hi Jeff, Very nice work! :) Some of those questions were not obvious to me. You did a good job answering them. The only $0.02 I would add is in F14. I think I would mention that radability is not only something that Python has, but it is one of the core philosophies of the language and community. Anyway, great work! I also like Sean's feedback too. Krys On Sunday 27 May 2007 06:00, advocacy-request at python.org wrote: > Whew! I've finished filling out the survey response to Forrester Research > and it was much harder than I expected. I'll be delivering it to them on > Tuesday morning, so I'm making it available online to the community for > correction and final input. > > http://dfwpython.org/uploads/Forrester/forrester-survey.txt > > At this stage I'm looking for blatant errors, embarrassing claims and > overlooked significant features. Some of the questions called for an essay > answer but I'm only permitted a few paragraphs and had to boil matters down > quite a big. > > Anyway, if anyone is around this holiday weekend, I'd appreciate a quick > skim, especially by anyone associated with Jython or IronPython, as I might > have misunderstood something and made claims that aren't precisely > accurate. It goes into a spreadsheet and the cell numbers are next to each > response, so you can refer to those. > > I think afterward I may turn this into a whitepaper, with somewhat expanded > answers, to recycle the effort. > > -Jeff From mtobis at gmail.com Tue May 29 17:05:36 2007 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:05:36 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app In-Reply-To: <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> References: <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> Message-ID: Jeff: sorry for the double mailing; I erroneously replied to you and not all. All: On 5/26/07, Jeff Rush wrote: > Michael Tobis wrote: > > Is education Python's killer app? I think it could be. > > > > I used the occasion of the Python Papers to motivate my efforts to > > explain this idea, and you can see what I came up with on pages > > 8-15. > > Michael, thanks for writing for the Python Papers. I found your article quite > interesting. Thanks. I hope it helps bring some new energy to CP4E. > I would ask though, of what education are you thinking? I mean, > there is the use of Python to teach programming, and there is the teaching of > other topics but using Python to do it. Absolutely. I want there to be a well-designed computer language in common use so that I can write simple pieces of code to convey the fundamentals of climate and earth science that are policy relevant and have substantive discussions with people, instead of having to go over the fundamentals over and over again. That was my motivation for getting interested in CP4E in the first place. I expect you may hear from others on this list ( :-) ) who are using Python to teach math. > And there is the teaching of children > versus adults, although a case can be made for some degree of overlap there. Yes. Check my taxonomy of five classes of beginner. I think that may be the most substantively original part of my modest contribution. > Much of the effort I've seen is to teach programming, but the OLPC project has > intrigued me more to consider non-programming topics. Since I hang out mostly > with other programmers, this is challenging. > > > > I suggest a concerted effort by the community toward leveraging the > > OLPC/Sugar momentum to revive the idea of Python as tool for teaching > > some programming as a useful part of universal education. > > While there are those who enjoy solving abstract problems, programming or > otherwise, if seems to me that if we're going to tackle CP4E (computer > programming for everyone, for those not aware of the history), we have to make > programming not the end-goal but the tool for doing the things in which those > people are interested. CP4E will never make the vast majority of people > programming geeks. I absolutely agree. The purpose of literacy is not to create novelists, either. Findamental programming competence is not vocational training. It ought to be and (if we survive the next coming crunch intact) probably someday will be a prerequisite for effective participation in the democratic process. > So it seems to me that it would advance the cause, of programming in general > and Python specifically, if a repository of resources were assembled. I'm > sure some of these exist scattered across the net but some I've never been > able to find. And non-programmers can be so impatient in rummaging through > sites, understandably wanting to get on with solving their problem. > > I tossed together a very rough wiki page of some ideas I've been kicking > around. These resources attempt to answer a response I get frequently when I > push the learning of Python, that of "but what would I -do- with Python once I > learned it?". > > http://wiki.python.org/moin/Advocacy/ProgrammingForNewprogrammers Wiki is good. Yes wiki please. I think we should also update the edu-sig page on python.org . One of the purposes of the article was to nucleate a maintained directory relevant resources of all types. Michael From Cameron at phaseit.net Tue May 29 17:17:33 2007 From: Cameron at phaseit.net (Cameron Laird) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:17:33 +0000 Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app In-Reply-To: References: <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> Message-ID: <20070529151733.GA13902@lairds.us> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:05:36AM -0500, Michael Tobis wrote: . . . > Absolutely. I want there to be a well-designed computer language in > common use so that I can write simple pieces of code to convey the > fundamentals of climate and earth science that are policy relevant and > have substantive discussions with people, instead of having to go over > the fundamentals over and over again. That was my motivation for > getting interested in CP4E in the first place. . . . Confession time: I'm working on a series of articles on this theme: computationally-intensive science (essentially everything nowadays, in a sense I elaborate) is only real when the computations are based on open-source software. I think we should stay in touch with each other--let's hit our audiences high *and* low! (Did anyone else play enough US team sports to understand that trope?). From gslindstrom at gmail.com Tue May 29 22:23:29 2007 From: gslindstrom at gmail.com (Greg Lindstrom) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 15:23:29 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Starting a Users Group Message-ID: Hello, All- I'd like to start a Python Users Group in Central Arkansas. Can anyone help me with any/all of the following: 1. Why have a users group? This may seem like a silly question, but what is it that users groups accomplish? My idea would be to get Python coders together once-in-a-while (once a month? is that too optimistic?) to discuss...what? I have conducted seminars at two local high schools teaching Python; I'd like to do more. What else? 2. How do I get word out? I *know* there are Pythonistas in the area, how do I find others? 3. What about a mailing list? Where can I get one hosted? I'm willing to spend some $$ per month. Perhaps that's a good start. Thanks for your help. Greg Lindstrom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070529/70bcacd1/attachment.htm From grig at gheorghiu.net Tue May 29 23:00:10 2007 From: grig at gheorghiu.net (Grig Gheorghiu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [python-advocacy] Starting a Users Group In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <255362.51585.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I started the SoCal Piggies group (Southern California). Here are some answers to your questions: Our group meets once a month. We typically have 2 to 3 people presenting on their topic of choice. Presentations are typically 30 to 45 minutes long. We have a Web site/wiki at www.socal-piggies.org where you can see what has been presented since 2005, when our group started. Some benefits of having a Python user group: * getting Python enthusiasts together -- great way to generate ideas for new projects, or get collaborators for existing projects * learning something every month * sharpening your presentation skills * spreading the word about Python * job networking ...but maybe most importantly, it's just the pleasure of sitting in the same room and talking with people passioned about Python. Think miniature PyCon. If I were you, I'd advertise on comp.lang.python and on blog(s) aggregated into Planet Python. As for a mailing list, you can get a Google project hosted at code.google.com. That'll give you a wiki, a mailing list, and svn, all for free. Grig --- Greg Lindstrom wrote: > Hello, All- > > I'd like to start a Python Users Group in Central Arkansas. Can > anyone help > me with any/all of the following: > > > 1. Why have a users group? This may seem like a silly question, > but > what is it that users groups accomplish? My idea would be to get > Python > coders together once-in-a-while (once a month? is that too > optimistic?) to > discuss...what? I have conducted seminars at two local high > schools > teaching Python; I'd like to do more. What else? > 2. How do I get word out? I *know* there are Pythonistas in the > area, > how do I find others? > 3. What about a mailing list? Where can I get one hosted? I'm > willing to spend some $$ per month. Perhaps that's a good start. > > Thanks for your help. > > Greg Lindstrom > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue May 29 23:49:48 2007 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 14:49:48 -0700 Subject: [python-advocacy] Starting a Users Group In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070529214948.GA4534@panix.com> On Tue, May 29, 2007, Greg Lindstrom wrote: > > 3. What about a mailing list? Where can I get one hosted? I'm > willing to spend some $$ per month. Perhaps that's a good start. Send e-mail to postmaster at python.org with your preferred listname. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From sean at odonnell.nu Tue May 29 23:32:37 2007 From: sean at odonnell.nu (Sean O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 22:32:37 +0100 Subject: [python-advocacy] Starting a Users Group In-Reply-To: <255362.51585.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <255362.51585.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465C9BF5.4040301@odonnell.nu> I started Python Ireland (python.ie), (well resurrected it, an earlier attempt had failed). Grigs reasons are spot on. As for getting the word out, we started on meetup.com when it was still free. We found that it wasn't bringing in new members about 6 months after they started charging, but it may still be a useful tool to get your group off the ground. Advertising on related mailing lists (e.g. sage, linux user groups) with the admins permission tends to get a good response. Put your meetings on upcoming.org. Mailing lists are easy , as grig said code.google.com is handy, if you just want a mailing list, google groups works fine for us. Our group meets once a month. About every other month we give talks, and the remainder of the time its just pub socials. The main key to starting a group is persistence. It took about a year for the group to get a core group of regular attendees, but I am happy to say, now , about 2 years later I can take off and travel for months of the time and the group self organizes without any effort on my part. Good luck and have fun Sean From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed May 30 15:56:42 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 08:56:42 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Starting a Users Group In-Reply-To: <465C9BF5.4040301@odonnell.nu> References: <255362.51585.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <465C9BF5.4040301@odonnell.nu> Message-ID: <3096c19d0705300656l35402a75ja7f3b738dcb52fd6@mail.gmail.com> Just chiming in to say I agree with everyone. I'm one of the founders of the Chicago group (chipy.org). Something to to keep in mind as an option is to find a non-Python group (like a Ruby, PHP or Perl group) and see if you can join forces with them. If you're in a market that might not sustain monthly meetings for _just_python_ it might be worth lumping together with other groups so that you can say "this month we have a presentation on PHP MySQL libraries, and Python MySQL libraries." Just a thought. Don't get me wrong here...Python is the greatest language ever, all other languages pale in comparison, and should be crushed under our wheels. If we group up with them, we'll have a better idea of who needs to be crushed. Chris From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com Thu May 31 08:26:12 2007 From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:26:12 +1000 Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app In-Reply-To: <20070529151733.GA13902@lairds.us> References: <4657F3E1.7080402@taupro.com> <20070529151733.GA13902@lairds.us> Message-ID: <43c8685c0705302326q59dda561jbb38dc262b4a05bc@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, Tennessee Leeuwenburg here, Editor-In-Chief of The Python Papers. I'm currently looking for people interested in writing an article or otherwise contributing to our next issue. It would be fantastic to continue the work started by Michael in his article. Cameron, if you're working on a series of articles, and are looking for a place to publish them, I'd be happy to help. If you would like to submit them as academic publications, we can do that too. Jeff: I agree with others that the term "new programmers" is troublesome, and also that finding a good alternative isn't easy! Many people who want to do X will not identify as programmers. The term isn't so much important to me as the idea that Python is an enabling tool for X. I think one way to go forward is to focus as much on X as on Python. A collection of resources is a great idea. Anyway, I'd love to get people's feedback on whether The Python Papers can help in this area, and if so, how. All the best, -Tennessee On 5/30/07, Cameron Laird wrote: > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 10:05:36AM -0500, Michael Tobis wrote: > . > . > . > > Absolutely. I want there to be a well-designed computer language in > > common use so that I can write simple pieces of code to convey the > > fundamentals of climate and earth science that are policy relevant and > > have substantive discussions with people, instead of having to go over > > the fundamentals over and over again. That was my motivation for > > getting interested in CP4E in the first place. > . > . > . > Confession time: I'm working on a series of articles on > this theme: computationally-intensive science (essentially > everything nowadays, in a sense I elaborate) is only real > when the computations are based on open-source software. > > I think we should stay in touch with each other--let's hit > our audiences high *and* low! (Did anyone else play enough > US team sports to understand that trope?). > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070531/d9b1bc19/attachment.html From hwg434 at yahoo.com Thu May 31 15:34:56 2007 From: hwg434 at yahoo.com (hwg) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 06:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app In-Reply-To: <43c8685c0705302326q59dda561jbb38dc262b4a05bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <565566.68512.qm@web54206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I strongly agree that Education could be Python's killer app. I not a programmer but an EE, and I started using Python in my work a couple years ago. Loved it so much I started using it to teach my son about programming. I'm even taking a run at writing a programming book for kids using Python. (I looked for suitable books for my son and found that there was almost nothing...) I recently came across some information on proposed changes for Python 3.0 that are somewhat alarming to me. It seems they are planning to take away input() and raw_input(). This quote is from a PEP which argues for keeping some form of raw_input(): The proposed plans for Python 3.0 would require the replacement of the single statement speed = raw_input("What is the average airspeed velocity of an unladed swallow?") by the more complicated import sys print("What is the average airspeed velocity of an unladed swallow?") speed = sys.stdin.readline() The removal of raw_input (or equivalent) would not significantly reduce the built-in namespace while it would steepen significantly the learning curve for beginners. This is bad. It starts to make my familiar, clear, simple Python look more like JavaScript or C. As a teaching tool for beginners, this is taking Python in the wrong direction. hwg --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20070531/61a05072/attachment.html From carl at personnelware.com Thu May 31 17:20:43 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:20:43 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] [Edu-sig] education as Python killer app In-Reply-To: <565566.68512.qm@web54206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <565566.68512.qm@web54206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <465EE7CB.5030800@personnelware.com> > > As for a switching requirement: how does this sound (I just though of it > this morning) > making the parameterstyle depend on the first character of the SQL > statement. > If it is a colon, remove it and the parameter style is either numeric or > named; if it is > not a colon, the parameter style is qmark. -1 and a very large value of one. If paramstyle needs to be designated, make .paramstyle r/w and set it. or add another parameter. Carl K