From catherine.devlin at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 11:11:27 2007 From: catherine.devlin at gmail.com (Catherine Devlin) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 06:11:27 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python at MIT Message-ID: <6523e39a0711020311o4313b56ue35df9c60b21b651@mail.gmail.com> There was some buzz about a year ago about MIT http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/2007/11/python-at-mit.html -- - Catherine http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/ From catherine.devlin at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 11:17:26 2007 From: catherine.devlin at gmail.com (Catherine Devlin) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 06:17:26 -0400 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python at MIT Message-ID: <6523e39a0711020317g1457ba65ufa93d07caec7650f@mail.gmail.com> Sorry about that! Managed to slip and hit a key-combo that equalled "send". There was some exciting news about a year ago that MIT was going to experiment with a new EE/CS curriculum that would start with Python. Looking around the department webpage today, it looks like the new curriculum is fully armed, operational, and being used to control killer robots as we speak! I haven't heard anything more about it in the Python community, though. Did I miss something? Various links at http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/2007/11/python-at-mit.html Who can fill in details? "Every MIT CS grad a Pythonista" - what a boon! -- - Catherine http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/ From jeffh at dundeemt.com Fri Nov 2 13:26:12 2007 From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 07:26:12 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Looking for Python Instructor for GIS Symposium in April 2008 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5aaed53f0711020526l4cf44da9rf0c00f08d15d5387@mail.gmail.com> This request came in to the Omaha Python users group list but so far no one has responded. Because of the nature of the request I am forwarding it on in the chance that serendipity might step in. -Jeff ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Eric.Foster at modot.mo.gov Date: Oct 30, 2007 10:51 AM Subject: [omaha] Looking for Python Instructor for GIS Symposium in April 2008 To: omaha at python.org I am involved with MAGIC http://www.magicgis.org/ an organization to encourage GIS development, sharing, cooperation, etc. and educate practitioners in GIS. We hold a symposium every two years in April (next is April 2008) and provide speakers and workshops in relevant GIS subjects. ESRI's ArcGIS software holds the market majority and has embraced Python language as a preferred scripting, customization language. One area we have trouble with for our symposium is getting instructors for Python workshops. The symposium is in Kansas City on April 20-24, 2008 and the Python course would be held for 4 hours on Sunday April 20th and would be a hands-on computer based course with a class of about 20-30 beginner programmers. We desire application to ArcGIS, but also just need basic Python skills instruction. The instructors and speakers as well as the planning committee are volunteers to keep the cost down to symposium attendees. Do you have anyone that might fit as an instructor for an Introduction to Python language course in the Midwest? We would like to get a commitment of an instructor with a one-to-two paragraph outline or summary to print in our preliminary program by this Friday (November 2, 2007) Sorry for the short notice, we thought we had someone lined up already, but do not. Please call or email me to discuss further. Eric Foster, Senior Transportation Planner MoDOT, 600 NE Colbern Rd. Lee's Summit, MO 64086 (816) 622-6330 _______________________________________________ Omaha Python Users Group mailing list Omaha at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/omaha http://www.OmahaPython.org From brad at allendev.com Sat Nov 3 22:07:55 2007 From: brad at allendev.com (Brad Allen) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 16:07:55 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python at MIT In-Reply-To: <6523e39a0711020317g1457ba65ufa93d07caec7650f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6523e39a0711020317g1457ba65ufa93d07caec7650f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 6:17 AM -0400 11/2/07, Catherine Devlin wrote: >There was some exciting news about a year ago that MIT was going to >experiment with a new EE/CS curriculum that would start with Python. > >Looking around the department webpage today, it looks like the new >curriculum is fully armed, operational, and being used to control >killer robots as we speak! I haven't heard anything more about it in >the Python community, though. Did I miss something? > >Various links at >http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/2007/11/python-at-mit.html > >Who can fill in details? "Every MIT CS grad a Pythonista" - what a boon! I've posted your blog at digg.com, Catherine. http://digg.com/programming/Python_used_for_MIT_Intro_Computer_Science_course Like you, I still meet business decision makers who have never heard of Python and need to be convinced. This is a great piece of conversational ammo for those situations. The more advanced courses don't specify the languages used, while the intro compsci course description makes a point of it. Maybe someone is trying to sneak in a little Python advocacy... From lac at openend.se Thu Nov 15 14:24:36 2007 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:24:36 +0100 Subject: [python-advocacy] can somebody who knows where would be a useful place to put this Message-ID: <200711151324.lAFDOacI011448@theraft.openend.se> put this there? do we need a page on python.org? if we have already got one, we need a better way to find it. Laura ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: pyconuk-bounces at python.org Delivery-Date: Thu Nov 15 12:33:44 2007 Return-Path: From: "Josette Garcia" To: "Mailing list for the PyCon UK conference" , "undisclosed-recipients" <"undisclosed-recipients:;"@bag.python.org> Subject: Re: [pyconuk] London Python meetup, Wednesday, December the 5th Hello I am Josette from O'Reilly UK Limited, and I might have met some of you at Pycon in Birmingham. I would like to let you know that the new edition of Learning Python is now published and I hope that all of you who purchased the old edition in Birmingham have now received the new one free of charge as agreed. Why I am writing - I understand that some of you have organized local user Groups. I would therefore like to make you aware that O'Reilly has a user group programme which I think is beneficial to your members and to O'Reilly. See below the advantages of subscribing your group to the programme together with a subscription form. User Group Leaders O'Reilly has a programme for your members! The O'Reilly User Group Programme is an alliance we've developed to support established user groups. (Please see our requirements below.) We share information and interact frequently with groups. And we provide benefits to groups, too. The object of O'Reilly's User Group Programme is to foster relationships with technical communities that--in addition to meeting regularly--troubleshoot, write product reviews, and share knowledge through newsletters or Web sites. O'Reilly has formed relationships with user groups across the globe, and we're honored to be a part of this unique technical community. User groups are volunteer, not-for-profit organizations, and O'Reilly is pleased to help these groups by providing member benefits that include: * Review copies of O'Reilly products - your reviews should be published on your site or newsletter but also why not send them to amazon.co.uk, slash dot or any other online sites of your choice? * Discounts on all O'Reilly books (35% off on all books that have a UK Shopping cart) and conferences * Donations of books and other promo items * Speaking engagements with O'Reilly authors when possible * Electronic Newsletter every month - announcing new books available for reviews, conferences etc. * Printed catalogues Groups registering for the O'Reilly User Group Program should have: * Membership of 5 or more people * Regular newsletter or user group Web site for shared information We also would like you to add our user group logo to your site see http://ug.oreilly.com/banners/. To join, please complete the following questionnaire. Contact name: First: Last: Position: User Group Name: Address: Town: Postcode Country: Phone: Email: URL: Meeting Date: Time: Location: Number of Members: Average number of members that attend meetings: Group Interests/Topics: Do you have a print newsletter? Y/N Do you have an email mailing list? Y/N Do you have a group Library? Y/N Does your User Group participate in tradeshows or conferences? Y/N If so which ones? Does your User Group publish book/software reviews? Y/N Does your User Group produce any special events? Y/N If so, what and when? Do you want O'Reilly catalogs for your members on a quarterly basis? Y/N If so, how many? (maximum 5) Do you prefer the Newsletter in HTML or plain text? I hope we can work together. Kindest regards Josette ### Josette Garcia O'Reilly UK Limited www.oreilly.com www.oreillygmt.eu - -----Original Message----- From: pyconuk-bounces at python.org [mailto:pyconuk-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Simon Brunning Sent: 13 November 2007 14:16 To: undisclosed-recipients Subject: [pyconuk] London Python meetup, Wednesday, December the 5th Details here: http://tinyurl.com/2cvtlq - -- Cheers, Simon B. simon at brunningonline.net http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/ GTalk: simon.brunning | MSN: small_values | Yahoo: smallvalues _______________________________________________ pyconuk mailing list pyconuk at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyconuk _______________________________________________ pyconuk mailing list pyconuk at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyconuk ------- End of Forwarded Message From gslindstrom at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 20:29:46 2007 From: gslindstrom at gmail.com (Greg Lindstrom) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:29:46 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] New Users Group Message-ID: Hello, I am please to announce the formation of a new Python Users Group in Arkansas. Python Artists of Arkansas, or PyAR^2 (Pi-R-Squared) started with 2 enthusiasts last week and as of this afternoon we have 30 people subscribed to our humble mailing list (pyar2 at python.org). Now that we're going, it's time to get going. Any advice you can pass along would be greatly appreciated. I asked this same question about 6 months ago and received good advice (I've printed it off to reference) but I'm always open for new ideas. I still want to get word out of this group and would like to send a flier to the Universities/Colleges in Arkansas. Ideally, I'd like to hit all of the High Schools, too, because I think Python is an ideal "learning" language but don't know if I can afford that. Are there examples of fliers like this anywhere for me to look at/rip off? If not, I'll make some up and post them here for your thoughts. Thanks, --greg BTW - You're welcome to join us!! http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyar2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20071115/22900f0c/attachment.htm From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Nov 15 22:30:16 2007 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:30:16 -0800 Subject: [python-advocacy] New Users Group In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071115213016.GA21101@panix.com> On Thu, Nov 15, 2007, Greg Lindstrom wrote: > > I am please to announce the formation of a new Python Users Group > in Arkansas. Python Artists of Arkansas, or PyAR^2 (Pi-R-Squared) > started with 2 enthusiasts last week and as of this afternoon we have > 30 people subscribed to our humble mailing list (pyar2 at python.org). Wrong, pie are round, cake are square. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Typing is cheap. Thinking is expensive." --Roy Smith From jeff at taupro.com Fri Nov 16 04:09:20 2007 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:09:20 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] can somebody who knows where would be a useful place to put this In-Reply-To: <200711151324.lAFDOacI011448@theraft.openend.se> References: <200711151324.lAFDOacI011448@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <473D09E0.5000403@taupro.com> Laura Creighton wrote: > put this there? > > do we need a page on python.org? > > if we have already got one, we need a better way to find it. > > Laura Laura, I'll take it as my action item to place it appropriately. It's a very good summary of what they offer usergroups. Thanks for forwarding it. -Jeff From noah.gift at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 04:55:22 2007 From: noah.gift at gmail.com (Noah Gift) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:55:22 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] [group-organizers] can somebody who knows where would be a useful place to put this In-Reply-To: <473D09E0.5000403@taupro.com> References: <200711151324.lAFDOacI011448@theraft.openend.se> <473D09E0.5000403@taupro.com> Message-ID: A related story: http://www.oreillynet.com/fyi/blog/2007/09/interview_with_the_python_atla_1.html On Nov 15, 2007 10:09 PM, Jeff Rush wrote: > Laura Creighton wrote: > > put this there? > > > > do we need a page on python.org? > > > > if we have already got one, we need a better way to find it. > > > > Laura > > Laura, I'll take it as my action item to place it appropriately. It's a > very > good summary of what they offer usergroups. Thanks for forwarding it. > > -Jeff > _______________________________________________ > Group-Organizers mailing list > Group-Organizers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20071115/8ff33883/attachment.htm From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Nov 20 02:47:03 2007 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:47:03 -0800 Subject: [python-advocacy] FWD: [PyCON-Organizers] Want to be a developer.com author? Message-ID: <20071120014703.GA20274@panix.com> ----- Forwarded message from Daniel Schneider ----- > To: pycon-organizers at python.org > From: Daniel Schneider > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:57:14 -0800 > Subject: [PyCON-Organizers] Want to be a developer.com author? > > Hi, > > An editor I contacted from developer.com said she would like to find > an author to write more articles for them on Python. Some of their > articles are contributed by individuals who are not reporters anyway, > so I don't think an established writing career is a prerequisite. I > am not positive on the specifics for topics, but they are most likely > looking for overviews or a "how to" on Python (though this is > something you would talk about with her). This is a great > opportunity to get some press for PyCon and Python in general. > Please let me know if you are interested and I'd be happy to give you > her contact info. > > Best, > > Daniel Schneider > Page One PR > office: 415.321.2346 > mobile: 818.903.0225 > daniel at pageonepr.com > www.pageonepr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Pycon-organizers mailing list > Pycon-organizers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Typing is cheap. Thinking is expensive." --Roy Smith From facundobatista at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 18:36:25 2007 From: facundobatista at gmail.com (Facundo Batista) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:36:25 -0300 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python flier to share Message-ID: Hi! For the last conference where Python Argentina had a stand, I created some pretty nice Python fliers. They have four sides (half A4, folded by the middle). At the front page, something like "Python scares you? Let it catch you! In Python Argentina we will help you", and the irc, web, and mail addresses. At back page, the Zen of Python. And in the middle (when you open the flier), a micro tutorial. Here's a photo of it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/54757453 at N00/1862942437/in/set-72157602915116788/ (some more photos of them in that very flickr set) Anyway, if you want to use it or part of it, feel free to do it! Here's the SVG: http://tools.assembla.com/svn/homedevel/docs/folleto-pyar-1.svg (note that I used the free DejaVu fonts, maybe you'll need to install it). Enjoy it! Regards, -- . Facundo Blog: http://www.taniquetil.com.ar/plog/ PyAr: http://www.python.org/ar/ From geekhunter at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 16:41:33 2007 From: geekhunter at gmail.com (Todd Cranston-Cuebas) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:41:33 -0800 Subject: [python-advocacy] user group presentation materials host Message-ID: <803d9f750711270741t98c4d0ax7cd2c0b114fa7118@mail.gmail.com> Message: 1 Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:26:27 -0400 From: "A.M. Kuchling" Subject: Re: [python-advocacy] user group presentation materials host To: Advocacy at python.org Message-ID: <20071019132627.GA8152 at amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 10:12:06AM -0500, Carl Karsten wrote: >> One of Chipy's speakers wants to put his presentation files somewhere. Is >> there some central place for this? I know that this is an older thread but thought I'd point out that if you have a Google account, you can go to http://docs.google.com and create a presentation. People think of Google Docs only for word processing and spreadsheets but there is a nice presentation option also. Keeps the presentation centralized so you can pull from any browser. Just a thought. BTW: Yes, I do work at Google ;) Todd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20071127/14f8376d/attachment.htm From dorai at thodla.com Tue Nov 27 18:11:47 2007 From: dorai at thodla.com (Dorai Thodla) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:41:47 +0530 Subject: [python-advocacy] user group presentation materials host In-Reply-To: <803d9f750711270741t98c4d0ax7cd2c0b114fa7118@mail.gmail.com> References: <803d9f750711270741t98c4d0ax7cd2c0b114fa7118@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <603b7e560711270911u73fb69e5m4f9dee3753e28217@mail.gmail.com> Slideshare may be another option (if you already have the presentation). http://www.slideshare.net/ Dorai www.thodla.com On Nov 27, 2007 9:11 PM, Todd Cranston-Cuebas wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:26:27 -0400 > From: "A.M. Kuchling" > Subject: Re: [python-advocacy] user group presentation materials host > To: Advocacy at python.org > Message-ID: <20071019132627.GA8152 at amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 10:12:06AM -0500, Carl Karsten wrote: > >> One of Chipy's speakers wants to put his presentation files somewhere. > Is > >> there some central place for this? > > I know that this is an older thread but thought I'd point out that if you > have a Google account, you can go to http://docs.google.com and create a > presentation. People think of Google Docs only for word processing and > spreadsheets but there is a nice presentation option also. Keeps the > presentation centralized so you can pull from any browser. > > Just a thought. BTW: Yes, I do work at Google ;) > > Todd > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy > > -- Dorai Thodla (http://www.thodla.com) US: 650-206-2688 India: 98408 89258 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20071127/c4dde589/attachment.htm From bjorn at stabell.org Mon Nov 26 17:45:26 2007 From: bjorn at stabell.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Stabell?=) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:45:26 +0800 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python vs Ruby on Apple site Message-ID: <5AE8861F-7F79-4EDA-A63F-F3A54AD1A687@exoweb.net> I think this article is not entirely up-to-date in its information (or lack thereof) of Python, especially if compared with its treatment of Ruby. It comes off as pretty biased. If someone has corrections and connections, I might be good to do Python a bit more justice. http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/RubyPythonCocoa/Articles/RubyPythonMacOSX.html From thomasviner at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 26 02:00:34 2007 From: thomasviner at yahoo.co.uk (Thomas Viner) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:00:34 -0000 Subject: [python-advocacy] FW: [PyCon] New comment on The PyCon 2007 podcast. Message-ID: <002b01c82fc7$c05718f0$41054ad0$@co.uk> Any word on the Pycon 2007 podcasts? Tom From: 7times9 [mailto:noreply-comment at blogger.com] Sent: 26 November 2007 12:56 am To: 7times9 at gmail.com Subject: [PyCon] New comment on The PyCon 2007 podcast. 7times9 has left a new comment on the post "The PyCon 2007 podcast": The links to podcasts in http://advocacy.python.org/podcasts/ are broken too! Post a comment. Unsubscribe to comments on this post. Posted by 7times9 to PyCon at 11/25/2007 7:55 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20071126/7abb4d7a/attachment.htm From noah.gift at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 20:05:56 2007 From: noah.gift at gmail.com (Noah Gift) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:05:56 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python vs Ruby on Apple site In-Reply-To: <5AE8861F-7F79-4EDA-A63F-F3A54AD1A687@exoweb.net> References: <5AE8861F-7F79-4EDA-A63F-F3A54AD1A687@exoweb.net> Message-ID: <807A3823-ABF3-4ECA-9C47-20800ABB6CD8@gmail.com> On Nov 26, 2007, at 11:45 AM, Bj?rn Stabell wrote: > I think this article is not entirely up-to-date in its information (or > lack thereof) of Python, especially if compared with its treatment of > Ruby. It comes off as pretty biased. If someone has corrections and > connections, I might be good to do Python a bit more justice. > > http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/RubyPythonCocoa/Articles/RubyPythonMacOSX.html I agree with you. There seems to be a lack of documentation from Apple about the new bridge and Python. I would love to see more articles and more documentation. > > _______________________________________________ > Advocacy mailing list > Advocacy at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Nov 27 22:17:55 2007 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:17:55 +0100 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python vs Ruby on Apple site In-Reply-To: <807A3823-ABF3-4ECA-9C47-20800ABB6CD8@gmail.com> References: <5AE8861F-7F79-4EDA-A63F-F3A54AD1A687@exoweb.net> <807A3823-ABF3-4ECA-9C47-20800ABB6CD8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12BDD61B-54EB-4F68-A237-7DD2397E1840@cwi.nl> On 27-Nov-2007, at 20:05 , Noah Gift wrote: > > On Nov 26, 2007, at 11:45 AM, Bj?rn Stabell wrote: > >> I think this article is not entirely up-to-date in its information >> (or >> lack thereof) of Python, especially if compared with its treatment of >> Ruby. It comes off as pretty biased. If someone has corrections and >> connections, I might be good to do Python a bit more justice. >> >> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ >> RubyPythonCocoa/Articles/RubyPythonMacOSX.html > > I agree with you. There seems to be a lack of documentation from > Apple about the new bridge and Python. I would love to see more > articles and more documentation. I had a long look at the article (and the other Ruby and Python material around it), and I must say that I don't see the bias. Quite the reverse, I get the impression that whoever wrote this went out of his/her way to offset every nice remark about one of the languages by an equally nice remark about the other one. Which bits are you finding biased? I've also cc'd Ronald Oussoren, who is probably the best bridge between the Python community and Apple (being the person who did all the work:-), and I'd also like to know whether he sees any bias here, -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20071127/46936e60/attachment-0001.htm From noah.gift at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 22:35:53 2007 From: noah.gift at gmail.com (Noah Gift) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:35:53 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python vs Ruby on Apple site In-Reply-To: <12BDD61B-54EB-4F68-A237-7DD2397E1840@cwi.nl> References: <5AE8861F-7F79-4EDA-A63F-F3A54AD1A687@exoweb.net> <807A3823-ABF3-4ECA-9C47-20800ABB6CD8@gmail.com> <12BDD61B-54EB-4F68-A237-7DD2397E1840@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <8CB1C925-7B27-4C92-B94E-9D1DE4B4EA89@gmail.com> > > I had a long look at the article (and the other Ruby and Python > material around it), and I must say that I don't see the bias. Quite > the reverse, I get the impression that whoever wrote this went out > of his/her way to offset every nice remark about one of the > languages by an equally nice remark about the other one. Which bits > are you finding biased? For someone wanting to explore a dynamic language for OS X, they might get the wrong impression when they see this associated article: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/RubyPythonCocoa/Articles/UsingScriptingBridge.html#/ /apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40005424-SW1 Where there are 10 lines of python and about 50 or so lines of Ruby, and all the fun stuff is shown in Ruby. That was my first impression at least, it is funny someone brought it up too. Noah > > I've also cc'd Ronald Oussoren, who is probably the best bridge > between the Python community and Apple (being the person who did all > the work:-), and I'd also like to know whether he sees any bias here, > -- > Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20071127/ac6d20a3/attachment.htm From ronaldoussoren at mac.com Wed Nov 28 07:25:46 2007 From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:25:46 +0100 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python vs Ruby on Apple site In-Reply-To: <12BDD61B-54EB-4F68-A237-7DD2397E1840@cwi.nl> References: <5AE8861F-7F79-4EDA-A63F-F3A54AD1A687@exoweb.net> <807A3823-ABF3-4ECA-9C47-20800ABB6CD8@gmail.com> <12BDD61B-54EB-4F68-A237-7DD2397E1840@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <3C56A764-091B-4CFE-9CA5-DB215AFC7765@mac.com> On 27 Nov, 2007, at 22:17, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On 27-Nov-2007, at 20:05 , Noah Gift wrote: > >> >> On Nov 26, 2007, at 11:45 AM, Bj?rn Stabell wrote: >> >>> I think this article is not entirely up-to-date in its information >>> (or >>> lack thereof) of Python, especially if compared with its treatment >>> of >>> Ruby. It comes off as pretty biased. If someone has corrections >>> and >>> connections, I might be good to do Python a bit more justice. >>> >>> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/RubyPythonCocoa/Articles/RubyPythonMacOSX.html >> >> I agree with you. There seems to be a lack of documentation from >> Apple about the new bridge and Python. I would love to see more >> articles and more documentation. > > I had a long look at the article (and the other Ruby and Python > material around it), and I must say that I don't see the bias. Quite > the reverse, I get the impression that whoever wrote this went out > of his/her way to offset every nice remark about one of the > languages by an equally nice remark about the other one. Which bits > are you finding biased? > > I've also cc'd Ronald Oussoren, who is probably the best bridge > between the Python community and Apple (being the person who did all > the work:-), and I'd also like to know whether he sees any bias here, I don't see any bias there, the article seems carefully balanced. BTW. the best way to get more documentation is writing it. That's one thing the Ruby folks have gotten right and we haven't: a nice website with current information. Ronald > -- > Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20071128/e86d0186/attachment.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20071128/e86d0186/attachment.bin From bjorn at stabell.org Thu Nov 29 04:20:22 2007 From: bjorn at stabell.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Stabell?=) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:20:22 +0800 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python vs Ruby on Apple site In-Reply-To: <3C56A764-091B-4CFE-9CA5-DB215AFC7765@mac.com> References: <5AE8861F-7F79-4EDA-A63F-F3A54AD1A687@exoweb.net> <807A3823-ABF3-4ECA-9C47-20800ABB6CD8@gmail.com> <12BDD61B-54EB-4F68-A237-7DD2397E1840@cwi.nl> <3C56A764-091B-4CFE-9CA5-DB215AFC7765@mac.com> Message-ID: <1A079CEC-7915-429F-B72B-6D59EC7C4F9D@stabell.org> On Nov 28, 2007, at 14:25, Ronald Oussoren wrote: >> I've also cc'd Ronald Oussoren, who is probably the best bridge >> between the Python community and Apple (being the person who did >> all the work:-), and I'd also like to know whether he sees any bias >> here, > > I don't see any bias there, the article seems carefully balanced. > > BTW. the best way to get more documentation is writing it. That's > one thing the Ruby folks have gotten right and we haven't: a nice > website with current information. Lack of documentation used to be Ruby and Rails's biggest weakness. Glad to hear it's changed. Here are some of the issues I have with the article. I'm not a language expert, so perhaps someone could correct me on the points I'm wrong. [ What Are Ruby and Python? ] > [ ... ] > > Although their similarities are striking, these scripting languages > do have some differences. While Python code can contain both objects > and built-in types, in Ruby everything is an object. There are no > primitive or built-in types, such as integers. Thus anything in Ruby > code can accept messages. > I thought the type/class unification in 2.2 did away with the big "built in types" issue? > And you don?t have to declare variables to be of specific object > types. > I don't think you have to do this with Python, or any other dynamically types language either? > To distinguish variables as global, local, instance, and class, Ruby > uses naming conventions. > (... like Perl, whereas Python has other scoping rules.) > Ruby also has mix-in by modules and blocks, language features absent > in Python. > ... but alas no mention of the features Python has that are missing from Ruby, e.g., generator expressions. I guess the biggest difference is in the way Python uses indentation for scoping, whereas Ruby uses begin/end or {}. [ The Standard Ruby Package + Standard Python Package ] The Python packages that are included (except for numpy) are Mac or PyObjC packages. The Ruby list is more complete with web framework packages and their dependents. I can understand this is a marketing issue (it's nice to bundle Rails and all) but it just makes Python look like it can't be used for web development. I guess it could be good to mention Zope, Plone, TurboGears/Pylons, and Django as alternatives. NumPy's description might be better updated to "scientific computing: N-dimensional arrays, linear algebra, Fourier transforms, integration with Fortran" or just "scientific computing libraries". Just saying "Array processing for numbers, strings, records, and objects" doesn't do it justice. [ RubyOSA vs py-appscript ] I'm sure it's true that RubyOSA is more complete than py-appscript, and this kind-of shines through with a more colorful language and additional examples missing from py-appscript. At least, perhaps the py-appscript section could get an example too, similar to the "elegant" RubyOSA one :) Rgds, Bjorn From ronaldoussoren at mac.com Thu Nov 29 08:18:44 2007 From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:18:44 +0100 Subject: [python-advocacy] Python vs Ruby on Apple site In-Reply-To: <1A079CEC-7915-429F-B72B-6D59EC7C4F9D@stabell.org> References: <5AE8861F-7F79-4EDA-A63F-F3A54AD1A687@exoweb.net> <807A3823-ABF3-4ECA-9C47-20800ABB6CD8@gmail.com> <12BDD61B-54EB-4F68-A237-7DD2397E1840@cwi.nl> <3C56A764-091B-4CFE-9CA5-DB215AFC7765@mac.com> <1A079CEC-7915-429F-B72B-6D59EC7C4F9D@stabell.org> Message-ID: <9C7EB677-08E9-45A1-A09D-B372C025FC6E@mac.com> On 29 Nov, 2007, at 4:20, Bj?rn Stabell wrote: > On Nov 28, 2007, at 14:25, Ronald Oussoren wrote: >>> I've also cc'd Ronald Oussoren, who is probably the best bridge >>> between the Python community and Apple (being the person who did >>> all the work:-), and I'd also like to know whether he sees any >>> bias here, >> >> I don't see any bias there, the article seems carefully balanced. >> >> BTW. the best way to get more documentation is writing it. That's >> one thing the Ruby folks have gotten right and we haven't: a nice >> website with current information. > > Lack of documentation used to be Ruby and Rails's biggest weakness. > Glad to hear it's changed. I hadn't noticed this e-mail was to the advocacy list, I meant to write about mac-specific things only. RubyCocoa's documention seems to be much nicer than PyObjC's documentation. > > > > Here are some of the issues I have with the article. I'm not a > language expert, so perhaps someone could correct me on the points > I'm wrong. > > > [ What Are Ruby and Python? ] >> [ ... ] >> >> Although their similarities are striking, these scripting languages >> do have some differences. While Python code can contain both >> objects and built-in types, in Ruby everything is an object. There >> are no primitive or built-in types, such as integers. Thus anything >> in Ruby code can accept messages. >> > I thought the type/class unification in 2.2 did away with the big > "built in types" issue? There are some differences even now, such as being able to modify user classes but not built-in types. The phrasing here is unfortunate and not 100% correct, but there still are differences. > > >> And you don?t have to declare variables to be of specific object >> types. >> > I don't think you have to do this with Python, or any other > dynamically types language either? > >> To distinguish variables as global, local, instance, and class, >> Ruby uses naming conventions. >> > (... like Perl, whereas Python has other scoping rules.) The original statement is 100% correct isn't it? Ruby's naming conventions, like those in Perl, are a reason for not using Ruby ;-) > > >> Ruby also has mix-in by modules and blocks, language features >> absent in Python. >> > ... but alas no mention of the features Python has that are missing > from Ruby, e.g., generator expressions. > > I guess the biggest difference is in the way Python uses indentation > for scoping, whereas Ruby uses begin/end or {}. > > > > [ The Standard Ruby Package + Standard Python Package ] > > The Python packages that are included (except for numpy) are Mac or > PyObjC packages. The Ruby list is more complete with web framework > packages and their dependents. I can understand this is a marketing > issue (it's nice to bundle Rails and all) but it just makes Python > look like it can't be used for web development. I guess it could be > good to mention Zope, Plone, TurboGears/Pylons, and Django as > alternatives. My guess is that this is due to customer demand. That is, more developers/customers have asked for Ruby on Rails than one of the Python web frameworks. The rapid development of multiple Python web frameworks also doesn't help here (remember that Apple picks a release and then basicly sticks with it for the entire lifetime of a major release). > > > NumPy's description might be better updated to "scientific > computing: N-dimensional arrays, linear algebra, Fourier transforms, > integration with Fortran" or just "scientific computing libraries". > Just saying "Array processing for numbers, strings, records, and > objects" doesn't do it justice. > > > > [ RubyOSA vs py-appscript ] > > I'm sure it's true that RubyOSA is more complete than py-appscript, > and this kind-of shines through with a more colorful language and > additional examples missing from py-appscript. At least, perhaps > the py-appscript section could get an example too, similar to the > "elegant" RubyOSA one :) "Has" (the developer of py-appscript doesn't agree with you assumption. py-appscript is more mature and works better than RubyOSA. He's even developing a ruby version of appscript because he thinks RubyOSA sucks :-) BTW. A major reason why I don't think there is a major Ruby bias within Apple is that both Python and Ruby are used by Apple in shipping products (for example, Ruby is used in the Podcast creating client in Leopard, Python in the calendar server). The Ruby folks are better at PR though, but I IMHO that is true in the wider world as well. Ronald Ronald -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/advocacy/attachments/20071129/2a9c0183/attachment.bin