From amk at amk.ca Mon Mar 2 12:33:37 2009 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 06:33:37 -0500 Subject: [python-advocacy] Advocacy Digest, Vol 29, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090302113337.GB2762@amk.local> > Some months ago I created a facebook page for Python, primarily because ... I've forwarded your message to the PSF board. --amk From bradallen137 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 15:23:39 2009 From: bradallen137 at gmail.com (Brad Allen) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 08:23:39 -0600 Subject: [python-advocacy] Fwd: [dfwPython] PHP more satisfying than Python? Splutter! In-Reply-To: <49B203B9.8030009@tigernassau.com> References: <20090305085329.bm0n5vtz72asw0wk@64.40.144.195> <1c03087f0903050822j1bff1620k589c93db33b22ea9@mail.gmail.com> <49B08F63.2090405@tigernassau.com> <49B139A3.5050705@gmail.com>

<49B203B9.8030009@tigernassau.com> Message-ID: <4957f1ef0903070623t372422bck84bec8c2c6c10dfc@mail.gmail.com> Forwarding this conversation to the Python Advocacy list... Forwarded conversation Subject: [dfwPython] PHP more satisfying than Python? Splutter! ------------------------ From: ** Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 8:53 AM To: dfwpython I found this article while browsing the Register ("biting the hand that feeds IT") and did a double-take: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/05/evans_data_gentlemen_prefer_php/ Any thoughts? //M _______________________________________________ dfwPython mailing list dfwPython at dfwpython.org https://www.dfwpython.org/mailman/listinfo/dfwpython ---------- From: *Brad Allen* Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:22 AM To: martin at martinthomas.net Cc: dfwpython I guess they didn't ask any developers working in engineering, scientific computing, system administration, health care industry, computer science instruction, etc. :-) _______________________________________________ dfwPython mailing list dfwPython at dfwpython.org https://www.dfwpython.org/mailman/listinfo/dfwpython ---------- From: *John Taber* Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 8:50 PM To: Brad Allen Cc: dfwpython Brad Allen wrote: > well, maybe not surprising. 1) in the web world, many "developers" are actually web designers who really don't program a whole lot but can throw together some php scripts to make things happen 2) PHP is probably still the #1 web development platform based on inertia (no small factor - look at bookstore shelves) 3) python and ruby still have very small market shares - corporate penetration is still very small 4) most hosting companies barely support python, hardly support ruby (ruby's former hosting problem was because it had required mongrel, nginx, yada, yada - this is now fixed with the simple passenger (mod_rails) but few are up to speed on this - not even WebFaction) 5) more interesting might be: what are developers choosing to do new projects in ? 6) hardly a good reason, but at UNT, PHP is taught, python or ruby is not (despite my advocacy). but the article might be total rubbish when it shows PHP is a major choice for security - huh? PHP has some advantages but security is hardly one of them. > //M > > _______________________________________________ > dfwPython mailing list > dfwPython at dfwpython.org > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Tiger Nassau, Inc. www.tigernassau.com 1501 South Loop 288 #104 Denton, TX 76205 940-206-9763 ---------- From: *Kevin Horn* Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:36 PM To: dfwpython I do mostly web development for a living, and I get hired because I know PHP. Corporate clients who go looking for web developers think they have 3 choices: Java, .NET, and PHP. While I'd certainly pick PHP out of those 3 options, I'd much rather be using Python (I adore Turbogears). However, the decision of which technology is to be used has usually been made by some non-technical higher-up who read something in a "executive" magazine long before I (or any other technical types) are consulted. Sometimes I can sneak some Python in under the radar, though...I often use Python tools to do mass database migrations or even to generate PHP code. but going point by point over their various criterion: - *Ease of Use:* Ruby, PHP, Flex (obviously I disagree here) - *Exception Handling:* Ruby, Python, Powershell (Powershell? are they serious?) - *Extensibility:* Python, PHP, Perl (damn straight Python wins here) - *Maintainability/Readability:* Ruby, PHP, Python (I weep to think that I live in a world where anyone considers PHP more readable than Python) - *Cross-platform Portability:* PHP, Ruby, Python (I don't see how Ruby beats Python here, and PHP is mostly married to the Apache "platform", so while it runs on lots of OSs, you're stuck with the one web server, and sometimes Apache is overkill) - *Community:* Ruby, PHP, Javascript (ick...don't know what to say to that) - *Availability of Tools:* PHP, Ruby, VB Script (with Python you don't need much in the way of tools, though I guess it depends on what they mean by tools) - *Quality of Tools:* PHP, Flex, Python (ditto) - *Performance:* PHP, Perl, Python (no way PHP beats Python in a web application of any significant size) - *Memory Management:* Python, Perl, Flex (???) - *Client-side Scripting:* Javascript, Ruby, Windows Powershell (again, how did Powershell get into this survey at all?) - *Security:* Microsoft F#, PHP, Ruby (PHP should be dead last when it comes to security...yes, you CAN write secure code in PHP, but it's not easy) On the subject of the "overall satisfaction" rating...I wonder how much of PHP's win comes from the fact that there are really no serious negatives (or at least negative perceptions) to it. In other words maybe the survey doesn't indicate the developer community's "favorite" language, but rather the "least hated". Kevin Horn _______________________________________________ dfwPython mailing list dfwPython at dfwpython.org https://www.dfwpython.org/mailman/listinfo/dfwpython ---------- From: *Jeff Rush* Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:57 AM To: dfwpython (repost from a message that got caught in the anti-spam mechanism) Subject: Re: [dfwPython] PHP more satisfying than Python? Splutter! From: Sam Rangaswamy Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 10:32:10 -0600 (CST) To: Brad Allen CC: dfwpython , martin at martinthomas.net looking at this I think they also surveyed programmers walking out of a pub , PHP is more maintainable or readable than Python ? ---------- From: *Jeff Rush* Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 4:00 AM To: dfwpython From: Broadus Jones Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:01:37 -0600 To: martin at martinthomas.net We were robbed! :) The results look skewed by market share and media coverage. Using both Python and PHP, I was surprised to see that they were equally ranked in readability / maintainability. ---------- From: *Jason Galyon* Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 8:56 AM To: John Taber Cc: dfwpython I have heard PHP referred to as the "VB of Open Source" :) Regardless of any truth in that subjective statement (yes, I see the contradiction there) it goes without saying that many antipatterns are introduced in teaching PHP to beginners. Working with a PHP shop that is adopting Python I hear a lot about how it is so much better in many regards. Jason ---------- From: *Paul Kippes* Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 6:11 PM To: dfwpython The readability of PHP beating Python is interesting and I generally disagree. The PHP code I've written is okay and easy to read, the Python does a much better job in directing one to break up large scripts into modules and files. (Did PHP ever implement namespaces?) Tools must also mean programming editors and debuggers. I think PHP and Python work equally well across platforms. It is trivial to install PHP and Python on Windows and Linux distributions such as Fedora and Red Hat provide the php-cli RPM. However even with Red Hat, the PHP RPM is not required unlike the Python RPM. Close tie, perhaps? One wonders why Perl doesn't beat them all in this category. ---------- From: *Jason Galyon* Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 7:15 PM To: Paul Kippes , dfwpython Doesn't red hat, suse, debian, gentoo, and ubuntu use python for most of their infrastructure and tools? -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ---------- From: *Martin Thomas* Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 8:47 PM To: Jason Galyon Cc: dfwpython Certainly Redhat use a lot of Python in their tools. ---------- From: *Jeff Rush* Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 10:23 PM To: dfwpython And the package management facilities of Gentoo are built completely on top of Python. -Jeff ---------- From: *John Taber* Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 11:18 PM To: Martin Thomas Cc: dfwpython And Ubuntu uses a lot of Python as well. Let's see, Ruby has GitHub and Python has BitBucket, Launchpad and PHP has er, what? And connect to the cloud with PHP ? That's why I said it would be interesting to compare the newer projects to see if there's a big difference - and where the momentum is. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: