From ashok at parliaments.info  Thu Jun  4 10:59:15 2009
From: ashok at parliaments.info (Ashok Hariharan)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:59:15 +0300
Subject: [BangPypers] [JOB] UN vacancy for Python Developer
Message-ID: <a245ea580906040159g1f21d904j34924df6c3d9dfaa@mail.gmail.com>

There is a official United Nations vacancy for a python developer in
Nairobi (Kenya).

Please click the link below for details (you can apply online on the same link).

<https://jobs.un.org/Galaxy/Release3/Vacancy/Display_Vac.aspx?lang=1200&VACID=9b6c586f-4cc9-4090-8e20-a81da9c32eb4>

Kindly contact me off-list if you need any clarifications or more information.

regds

Ashok Hariharan

From swtest123 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 11:29:35 2009
From: swtest123 at gmail.com (testing123 test)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:59:35 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
Message-ID: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
       I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two XML
Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please help me How
to start?

Rgds,
Prasad
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From venkat83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 11:32:46 2009
From: venkat83 at gmail.com (Venkatraman S)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:02:46 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
In-Reply-To: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a3b05e8b0906040232u3998a48dkcc2cd8d2d5403469@mail.gmail.com>

 On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:59 PM, testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com>wrote:

>        I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two
> XML Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please help me
> How to start?
>

It is a structured document! Please use some basic CS skills.

-V-
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From ruchiryshukla at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 11:37:45 2009
From: ruchiryshukla at gmail.com (Ruchir Shukla)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:07:45 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
In-Reply-To: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a5d829d90906040237m2717dfa6l86611275d54255b6@mail.gmail.com>

import difflib
f=open('text1.txt','rb')
text1=f.read()
f.close()
f=open('text2.txt','rb')
text2=f.read()
f.close()
#print text1
#print text2
text1_lines = text1.splitlines(1)
text2_lines = text2.splitlines(1)
d = difflib.HtmlDiff()

diff = d.make_file(text1_lines, text2_lines)
print diff


To find difference this program and  *"difflib"* library can help you
HtmlDiff will return the HTML format of the comparison.

if u are looking for output in plain text format then following can help
you.

import difflib
d = difflib.Differ()
diff = d.compare(text1_lines, text2_lines)

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:59 PM, testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>        I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two
> XML Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please help me
> How to start?
>
> Rgds,
> Prasad
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
------------------------------
Thanking You
Ruchir Shukla
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From abpillai at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 11:43:05 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:13:05 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
In-Reply-To: <a3b05e8b0906040232u3998a48dkcc2cd8d2d5403469@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com>
	<a3b05e8b0906040232u3998a48dkcc2cd8d2d5403469@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906040243m3986dd09t845d58bb6fc92ac5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Venkatraman S <venkat83 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:59 PM, testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>        I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two
>> XML Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please help me
>> How to start?
>
>
 What do you want to do while comparing two XML files ? Do you want to
 validate that both XML files  are the same, i.e result in the same
 DOM ? Or do you want to compare only some top-level elements ?
 Give us the context of the problem.

 Please don't CC xml-sig on routine XML programming stuff.
 You will probably get flamed/charred beyond recognition.




>
>>
> It is a structured document! Please use some basic CS skills.
>
> -V-
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
-Anand
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From venkat83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 11:50:56 2009
From: venkat83 at gmail.com (Venkatraman S)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:20:56 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
In-Reply-To: <a5d829d90906040237m2717dfa6l86611275d54255b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com>
	<a5d829d90906040237m2717dfa6l86611275d54255b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a3b05e8b0906040250w21955763tfcac950db04eed7c@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ruchir Shukla <ruchiryshukla at gmail.com>wrote:

> import difflib
> f=open('text1.txt','rb')
> text1=f.read()
> f.close()
> f=open('text2.txt','rb')
> text2=f.read()
> f.close()
> #print text1
> #print text2
> text1_lines = text1.splitlines(1)
> text2_lines = text2.splitlines(1)
> d = difflib.HtmlDiff()
>
> diff = d.make_file(text1_lines, text2_lines)
> print diff
>
>
> To find difference this program and  *"difflib"* library can help you
> HtmlDiff will return the HTML format of the comparison.
>
> if u are looking for output in plain text format then following can help
> you.
>
> import difflib
> d = difflib.Differ()
> diff = d.compare(text1_lines, text2_lines)
>


Do NOT spoonfeed! *sigh*

-V-
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From ruchiryshukla at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 12:10:10 2009
From: ruchiryshukla at gmail.com (Ruchir Shukla)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:40:10 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
In-Reply-To: <a3b05e8b0906040250w21955763tfcac950db04eed7c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a5d829d90906040237m2717dfa6l86611275d54255b6@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a3b05e8b0906040250w21955763tfcac950db04eed7c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a5d829d90906040310t3a34b920q86c40bba806c3f3c@mail.gmail.com>

okay sorry :)
will keep in mind

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Venkatraman S <venkat83 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ruchir Shukla <ruchiryshukla at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> import difflib
>> f=open('text1.txt','rb')
>> text1=f.read()
>> f.close()
>> f=open('text2.txt','rb')
>> text2=f.read()
>> f.close()
>> #print text1
>> #print text2
>> text1_lines = text1.splitlines(1)
>> text2_lines = text2.splitlines(1)
>> d = difflib.HtmlDiff()
>>
>> diff = d.make_file(text1_lines, text2_lines)
>> print diff
>>
>>
>> To find difference this program and  *"difflib"* library can help you
>> HtmlDiff will return the HTML format of the comparison.
>>
>> if u are looking for output in plain text format then following can help
>> you.
>>
>> import difflib
>> d = difflib.Differ()
>> diff = d.compare(text1_lines, text2_lines)
>>
>
>
> Do NOT spoonfeed! *sigh*
>
> -V-
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
------------------------------
Ruchir Shukla
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From srijayanth at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 12:22:37 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:52:37 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
In-Reply-To: <a5d829d90906040310t3a34b920q86c40bba806c3f3c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com>
	<a5d829d90906040237m2717dfa6l86611275d54255b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<a3b05e8b0906040250w21955763tfcac950db04eed7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<a5d829d90906040310t3a34b920q86c40bba806c3f3c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906040322m10c18877je9d078b9ea0c0e60@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

My name is Jayanth. I am new to BangPypers and Python in general. I have
been working on Ruby however so I am not lost or anything.

I wanted to point out that on ruby-lang several posters from India seem to
have no concept of how to phrase questions. They also lack the basic
curiosity to try common things before they go asking around for answers.
I've pondered for a long time why this phenomenon is particularly large here
whereas nearly everywhere else, even in countries where English is a
non-native language, people actually stick to basic etiquette.

Either the proportion of posters who ask for answers outright is really high
from India, or I am just being overly critical. What do you feel are some of
the reasons for this?

Thank you,

Jayanth

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Ruchir Shukla <ruchiryshukla at gmail.com>wrote:

> okay sorry :)
> will keep in mind
>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Venkatraman S <venkat83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ruchir Shukla <ruchiryshukla at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> import difflib
>>> f=open('text1.txt','rb')
>>> text1=f.read()
>>> f.close()
>>> f=open('text2.txt','rb')
>>> text2=f.read()
>>> f.close()
>>> #print text1
>>> #print text2
>>> text1_lines = text1.splitlines(1)
>>> text2_lines = text2.splitlines(1)
>>> d = difflib.HtmlDiff()
>>>
>>> diff = d.make_file(text1_lines, text2_lines)
>>> print diff
>>>
>>>
>>> To find difference this program and  *"difflib"* library can help you
>>> HtmlDiff will return the HTML format of the comparison.
>>>
>>> if u are looking for output in plain text format then following can help
>>> you.
>>>
>>> import difflib
>>> d = difflib.Differ()
>>> diff = d.compare(text1_lines, text2_lines)
>>>
>>
>>
>> Do NOT spoonfeed! *sigh*
>>
>> -V-
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------
> Ruchir Shukla
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>
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From swtest123 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 13:00:40 2009
From: swtest123 at gmail.com (testing123 test)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:30:40 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4249.1244109058.8014.bangpypers@python.org>
References: <mailman.4249.1244109058.8014.bangpypers@python.org>
Message-ID: <8f7c146d0906040400r48ba3af3g45ff70ed2c653c80@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Venkatraman,

              Yes,My requirement is to compait 2 XML Files are same or not.
Please help me in this regard.

Rgds,
Prasad

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:20 PM, <bangpypers-request at python.org> wrote:

> Send BangPypers mailing list submissions to
>        bangpypers at python.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        bangpypers-request at python.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        bangpypers-owner at python.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of BangPypers digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. [JOB] UN vacancy for Python Developer (Ashok Hariharan)
>   2. Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python (testing123 test)
>   3. Re: Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python (Venkatraman S)
>   4. Re: Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python (Ruchir Shukla)
>   5. Re: Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
>      (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
>   6. Re: Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python (Venkatraman S)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:59:15 +0300
> From: Ashok Hariharan <ashok at parliaments.info>
> To: bangalore python-ug list <bangpypers at python.org>
> Subject: [BangPypers] [JOB] UN vacancy for Python Developer
> Message-ID:
>        <a245ea580906040159g1f21d904j34924df6c3d9dfaa at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> There is a official United Nations vacancy for a python developer in
> Nairobi (Kenya).
>
> Please click the link below for details (you can apply online on the same
> link).
>
> <
> https://jobs.un.org/Galaxy/Release3/Vacancy/Display_Vac.aspx?lang=1200&VACID=9b6c586f-4cc9-4090-8e20-a81da9c32eb4
> >
>
> Kindly contact me off-list if you need any clarifications or more
> information.
>
> regds
>
> Ashok Hariharan
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:59:35 +0530
> From: testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com>
> To: bangpypers at python.org
> Cc: xml-sig at python.org
> Subject: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
> Message-ID:
>        <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi all,
>       I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two XML
> Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please help me
> How
> to start?
>
> Rgds,
> Prasad
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/attachments/20090604/31dceacd/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:02:46 +0530
> From: Venkatraman S <venkat83 at gmail.com>
> To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India <bangpypers at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using
>        Python
> Message-ID:
>        <a3b05e8b0906040232u3998a48dkcc2cd8d2d5403469 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>  On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:59 PM, testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> >        I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two
> > XML Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please help
> me
> > How to start?
> >
>
> It is a structured document! Please use some basic CS skills.
>
> -V-
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/attachments/20090604/aefe647d/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:07:45 +0530
> From: Ruchir Shukla <ruchiryshukla at gmail.com>
> To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India <bangpypers at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using
>        Python
> Message-ID:
>        <a5d829d90906040237m2717dfa6l86611275d54255b6 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> import difflib
> f=open('text1.txt','rb')
> text1=f.read()
> f.close()
> f=open('text2.txt','rb')
> text2=f.read()
> f.close()
> #print text1
> #print text2
> text1_lines = text1.splitlines(1)
> text2_lines = text2.splitlines(1)
> d = difflib.HtmlDiff()
>
> diff = d.make_file(text1_lines, text2_lines)
> print diff
>
>
> To find difference this program and  *"difflib"* library can help you
> HtmlDiff will return the HTML format of the comparison.
>
> if u are looking for output in plain text format then following can help
> you.
>
> import difflib
> d = difflib.Differ()
> diff = d.compare(text1_lines, text2_lines)
>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:59 PM, testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >        I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two
> > XML Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please help
> me
> > How to start?
> >
> > Rgds,
> > Prasad
> > _______________________________________________
> > BangPypers mailing list
> > BangPypers at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------
> Thanking You
> Ruchir Shukla
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/attachments/20090604/f8905c73/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:13:05 +0530
> From: Anand Balachandran Pillai <abpillai at gmail.com>
> To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India <bangpypers at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using
>        Python
> Message-ID:
>        <8548c5f30906040243m3986dd09t845d58bb6fc92ac5 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Venkatraman S <venkat83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:59 PM, testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >>        I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two
> >> XML Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please
> help me
> >> How to start?
> >
> >
>  What do you want to do while comparing two XML files ? Do you want to
>  validate that both XML files  are the same, i.e result in the same
>  DOM ? Or do you want to compare only some top-level elements ?
>  Give us the context of the problem.
>
>  Please don't CC xml-sig on routine XML programming stuff.
>  You will probably get flamed/charred beyond recognition.
>
>
>
>
> >
> >>
> > It is a structured document! Please use some basic CS skills.
> >
> > -V-
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BangPypers mailing list
> > BangPypers at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> -Anand
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/attachments/20090604/4f3c6b3a/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:20:56 +0530
> From: Venkatraman S <venkat83 at gmail.com>
> To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India <bangpypers at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using
>        Python
> Message-ID:
>        <a3b05e8b0906040250w21955763tfcac950db04eed7c at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ruchir Shukla <ruchiryshukla at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > import difflib
> > f=open('text1.txt','rb')
> > text1=f.read()
> > f.close()
> > f=open('text2.txt','rb')
> > text2=f.read()
> > f.close()
> > #print text1
> > #print text2
> > text1_lines = text1.splitlines(1)
> > text2_lines = text2.splitlines(1)
> > d = difflib.HtmlDiff()
> >
> > diff = d.make_file(text1_lines, text2_lines)
> > print diff
> >
> >
> > To find difference this program and  *"difflib"* library can help you
> > HtmlDiff will return the HTML format of the comparison.
> >
> > if u are looking for output in plain text format then following can help
> > you.
> >
> > import difflib
> > d = difflib.Differ()
> > diff = d.compare(text1_lines, text2_lines)
> >
>
>
> Do NOT spoonfeed! *sigh*
>
> -V-
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/attachments/20090604/06fbfb95/attachment.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>
> End of BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 1
> *****************************************
>
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From gora at srijan.in  Thu Jun  4 13:07:08 2009
From: gora at srijan.in (Gora Mohanty)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:37:08 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <8f7c146d0906040400r48ba3af3g45ff70ed2c653c80@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4249.1244109058.8014.bangpypers@python.org>
	<8f7c146d0906040400r48ba3af3g45ff70ed2c653c80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090604163708.67d39e5d@anubis>

On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:30:40 +0530
testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Venkatraman,
> 
>               Yes,My requirement is to compait 2 XML Files are same or not.
> Please help me in this regard.
[...]

o Use of a weird email address
o Ignoring relevant replies
o Inability to understand replies
o No concept of how to ask questions
o Quoting entire digests

I smell a troll.

Regards,
Gora

From abpillai at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 13:12:23 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:42:23 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <20090604163708.67d39e5d@anubis>
References: <mailman.4249.1244109058.8014.bangpypers@python.org>
	<8f7c146d0906040400r48ba3af3g45ff70ed2c653c80@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090604163708.67d39e5d@anubis>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906040412k621df97cmce1277b4df52bc24@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Gora Mohanty <gora at srijan.in> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:30:40 +0530
> testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Venkatraman,
> >
> >               Yes,My requirement is to compait 2 XML Files are same or
> not.
> > Please help me in this regard.
> [...]
>
> o Use of a weird email address
> o Ignoring relevant replies
> o Inability to understand replies
> o No concept of how to ask questions
> o Quoting entire digests
>
> I smell a troll.


  Let us not get too harsh in judging a newbie (I know he joined today
  because I got a request to approve his posting as non-member which
  I did not). Most likely he is not clued in to the aspects of posting to
  tech forums.

  With that, to the O.P. Please make sure that,

 1. Try not to reply to digests, if you do trim the post tail.
 2.  When you ask a question, try giving a richer context,
      i.e why you want to compare 2 XML files ? For example,
     quoting the actual problem details would help.
 3. When sending a mail to list, try not to address a single
     person. The etiquette is to address to the list or simply
    say "Hi".
 4. Use a personal email address - swtest123 does not
     say anything about you.


>
>
> Regards,
> Gora
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
-Anand
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From stallomir at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 13:13:24 2009
From: stallomir at gmail.com (Mandar Gokhale)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:43:24 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <20090604163708.67d39e5d@anubis>
References: <mailman.4249.1244109058.8014.bangpypers@python.org> 
	<8f7c146d0906040400r48ba3af3g45ff70ed2c653c80@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090604163708.67d39e5d@anubis>
Message-ID: <c3fb38580906040413s69dfec39g502ac44eeb367fa0@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah,

First really troll-like message I've encountered on this list though. :D



On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Gora Mohanty <gora at srijan.in> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:30:40 +0530
> testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Venkatraman,
> >
> >               Yes,My requirement is to compait 2 XML Files are same or
> not.
> > Please help me in this regard.
> [...]
>
> o Use of a weird email address
> o Ignoring relevant replies
> o Inability to understand replies
> o No concept of how to ask questions
> o Quoting entire digests
>
> I smell a troll.
>
> Regards,
> Gora
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
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From stallomir at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 13:14:47 2009
From: stallomir at gmail.com (Mandar Gokhale)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:44:47 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <8548c5f30906040412k621df97cmce1277b4df52bc24@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4249.1244109058.8014.bangpypers@python.org> 
	<8f7c146d0906040400r48ba3af3g45ff70ed2c653c80@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090604163708.67d39e5d@anubis>
	<8548c5f30906040412k621df97cmce1277b4df52bc24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3fb38580906040414w20a5ba1crdb61e72d54659e0e@mail.gmail.com>

H'm....

In that case, welcome to the newbie...(+what he said)




On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Anand Balachandran Pillai <
abpillai at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Gora Mohanty <gora at srijan.in> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:30:40 +0530
>> testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Venkatraman,
>> >
>> >               Yes,My requirement is to compait 2 XML Files are same or
>> not.
>> > Please help me in this regard.
>> [...]
>>
>> o Use of a weird email address
>> o Ignoring relevant replies
>> o Inability to understand replies
>> o No concept of how to ask questions
>> o Quoting entire digests
>>
>> I smell a troll.
>
>
>   Let us not get too harsh in judging a newbie (I know he joined today
>   because I got a request to approve his posting as non-member which
>   I did not). Most likely he is not clued in to the aspects of posting to
>   tech forums.
>
>   With that, to the O.P. Please make sure that,
>
>  1. Try not to reply to digests, if you do trim the post tail.
>  2.  When you ask a question, try giving a richer context,
>       i.e why you want to compare 2 XML files ? For example,
>      quoting the actual problem details would help.
>  3. When sending a mail to list, try not to address a single
>      person. The etiquette is to address to the list or simply
>     say "Hi".
>  4. Use a personal email address - swtest123 does not
>      say anything about you.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Gora
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>
>
>
> --
> -Anand
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>
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From swtest123 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 09:45:21 2009
From: swtest123 at gmail.com (testing123 test)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:15:21 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
Message-ID: <8f7c146d0906040045r3df577e6vf14097697de54c8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
       I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two XML
Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please help me How
to start?

Rgds,
Prasad
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From stefan_ml at behnel.de  Thu Jun  4 13:35:16 2009
From: stefan_ml at behnel.de (Stefan Behnel)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:35:16 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [BangPypers] [XML-SIG] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using
	Python
In-Reply-To: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f7c146d0906040229i2d8a0a46i70a01886d119543d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13f45ea2de40bad6ab3039730ad7442a.squirrel@groupware.dvs.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de>

testing123 test wrote:
> Hi all,
>   I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two XML
> Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please help me
> How to start?

... by looking at the Python package index?

If your XML files are small, you may get away with the xmldiff package.

Also, a very simple way to do that is to pretty print your XML files and
then run a normal line diff on them. Depends on what you want to achieve
with your 'script'.

If you need more than that and want to implement it in Python, you may
consider using lxml (or cElementTree if you can afford to ignore comments)
to parse the two files and then run through the two trees to look for
differences. But note that this is not trivial. There is some scientific
literature on good algorithms to compare XML tree structures.

Note that lxml.html comes with an HTML diff algorithm, which you can look
at for inspiration.

Stefan


From abpillai at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 15:18:32 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 18:48:32 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Regarding 2 XML Files Comparision using Python
In-Reply-To: <8f7c146d0906040045r3df577e6vf14097697de54c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8f7c146d0906040045r3df577e6vf14097697de54c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906040618o32c20dbej56786686515e1189@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 1:15 PM, testing123 test <swtest123 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>        I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two
> XML Files.Is there any tutorial.Should we include any library?Please help me
> How to start?
>

Are you a bot or something ? Why do you keep repeating
the same stuff again and again ?

 If you are some hacker testing a bot on this list, it is not very funny.


>
>
> Rgds,
> Prasad
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
-Anand
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From srinivasaenergy at gmail.com  Fri Jun  5 16:30:11 2009
From: srinivasaenergy at gmail.com (srinivasa rao)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:00:11 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] PyCon India website admin needed!
In-Reply-To: <9963e56e0905300529n24bf45f5rd860fbc5a9e3d453@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0905290459n636d35cak3668c832a99a402e@mail.gmail.com>
	<b072d7570905300437h4f1b9418gea81108be4a19f4c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0905300529n24bf45f5rd860fbc5a9e3d453@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b072d7570906050730l15c49e7bi405b0f3641bfffee@mail.gmail.com>

Dear sir
I am in bangalore and to set up internet so i start work for you  i hope i
get a support from you
thanks
yours truly
srinivasa rao m

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Noufal Ibrahim <noufal at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Sriinivas,
>  Please join the inpycon list. There are lots of things for which we
> need volunteers. As we move forwards, things will keep coming up and
> it would be wonderful to have people interested in contributing then.
>
> Thanks.
> --
>  ~noufal
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
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From abpillai at gmail.com  Sat Jun  6 06:53:44 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:23:44 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] PyCon India website admin needed!
In-Reply-To: <b072d7570906050730l15c49e7bi405b0f3641bfffee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0905290459n636d35cak3668c832a99a402e@mail.gmail.com>
	<b072d7570905300437h4f1b9418gea81108be4a19f4c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0905300529n24bf45f5rd860fbc5a9e3d453@mail.gmail.com>
	<b072d7570906050730l15c49e7bi405b0f3641bfffee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906052153i4239b6aaubcb86b41d32b3d27@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:00 PM, srinivasa rao <srinivasaenergy at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear sir
> I am in bangalore and to set up internet so i start work for you  i hope i
> get a support from you
> thanks
> yours truly
> srinivasa rao m
>

If you are interested, please join the inpycon list.
The list can be accessed at
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/*inpycon*



>
>
> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Noufal Ibrahim <noufal at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Sriinivas,
>>  Please join the inpycon list. There are lots of things for which we
>> need volunteers. As we move forwards, things will keep coming up and
>> it would be wonderful to have people interested in contributing then.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> --
>>  ~noufal
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
-Anand
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From vsapre80 at gmail.com  Sun Jun  7 21:37:11 2009
From: vsapre80 at gmail.com (Vishal)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 01:07:11 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers]  How to create Debug and Release code in Python
Message-ID: <a13a3b480906071237x1f42cdc4pc7235deed1d3ec91@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
We would like to have debug and release versions of our scripts. However
since the scripts are directly used by the 'users' and they are not real
software guys...maintaining two different scripts and then keeping them
synchronized across 15-20 workstations etc is not something that the
management wants.
Scripts are complex enough that we cannot abstract out all the variables
into config files....which might have been easier for users (just change
parameters in a config file)

*Is there a way to create a conditionally compilable Python script ?* Some
facility that would prevent from code getting compiled into
".pyc"....something like the old #ifdef #endif preprocessor directives....is
there a Python preprocessory available :)

if thats doable I can ask them to make all experimental modifications within
the conditional directives. I could still ask them to do that using simple
if's and bool parameters, however, putting too many ifs might degrade the
performance of these scripts. ("the lesser the branches the better it is for
processor performance...more so for super scalar processors")

We cannot use the, often unknown, __debug__ flag, because our users would
like to simply double-click on a python file, which means to use the -O or
-OO options (which sets __debug__ to False) we'd have to make windows python
command line have these, and then double clicking would be of no use if you
want the run stuff inside the __debug__.

Any and every help is most welcome :)

Thanks and best regards,
Vishal Sapre

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Sam's Lists <samslists at gmail.com> wrote:

> Anand---
>
> Thanks, that worked great.
>
> -Sam
>
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Anand Chitipothu <anandology at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> > text = "The Price ?7"
>> > pattern = u"?\d"
>> >
>> > m = re.search(pattern, text, re.UNICODE)
>> > print m.group(0)
>>
>> Your text is in utf-8 encoding and pattern in unicode.
>> Make text unicode solves the issue.
>>
>> text = u"The Price ?7"
>> pattern = u"?\d"
>> m = re.search(pattern, text, re.UNICODE)
>> print m.group(0).encode('utf-8')
>>
>> Anand
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
Thanks and best regards,
Vishal Sapre

---

"So say...Day by day, in every way, I am getting better, better and better
!!!"
"A Strong and Positive attitude creates more miracles than anything else.
Because...Life is 10% how you make it, and 90% how you take it"
"Diamond is another piece of coal that did well under pressure?
"Happiness keeps u Sweet, Trials keep u Strong,
Sorrow keeps u Human, Failure Keeps u Humble,
Success keeps u Glowing, But only God Keeps u Going.....Keep Going....."
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From sidharth.kuruvila at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 00:08:57 2009
From: sidharth.kuruvila at gmail.com (Sidharth Kuruvila)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 03:38:57 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] How to create Debug and Release code in Python
In-Reply-To: <a13a3b480906071237x1f42cdc4pc7235deed1d3ec91@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a13a3b480906071237x1f42cdc4pc7235deed1d3ec91@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2ab2ed550906071508ydfbade7rf6829c28a4c2f746@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

You could try the C preprocessor.  Personally, I'd just go for python's
inbult logging framework, and worry about the performance issue later.

Regards



On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:07 AM, Vishal <vsapre80 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> We would like to have debug and release versions of our scripts. However
> since the scripts are directly used by the 'users' and they are not real
> software guys...maintaining two different scripts and then keeping them
> synchronized across 15-20 workstations etc is not something that the
> management wants.
> Scripts are complex enough that we cannot abstract out all the variables
> into config files....which might have been easier for users (just change
> parameters in a config file)
>
> *Is there a way to create a conditionally compilable Python script ?* Some
> facility that would prevent from code getting compiled into
> ".pyc"....something like the old #ifdef #endif preprocessor directives....is
> there a Python preprocessory available :)
>
> if thats doable I can ask them to make all experimental modifications
> within the conditional directives. I could still ask them to do that using
> simple if's and bool parameters, however, putting too many ifs might degrade
> the performance of these scripts. ("the lesser the branches the better it is
> for processor performance...more so for super scalar processors")
>
> We cannot use the, often unknown, __debug__ flag, because our users would
> like to simply double-click on a python file, which means to use the -O or
> -OO options (which sets __debug__ to False) we'd have to make windows python
> command line have these, and then double clicking would be of no use if you
> want the run stuff inside the __debug__.
>
> Any and every help is most welcome :)
>
> Thanks and best regards,
> Vishal Sapre
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Sam's Lists <samslists at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Anand---
>>
>> Thanks, that worked great.
>>
>> -Sam
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Anand Chitipothu <anandology at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> > text = "The Price ?7"
>>> > pattern = u"?\d"
>>> >
>>> > m = re.search(pattern, text, re.UNICODE)
>>> > print m.group(0)
>>>
>>> Your text is in utf-8 encoding and pattern in unicode.
>>> Make text unicode solves the issue.
>>>
>>> text = u"The Price ?7"
>>> pattern = u"?\d"
>>> m = re.search(pattern, text, re.UNICODE)
>>> print m.group(0).encode('utf-8')
>>>
>>> Anand
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BangPypers mailing list
>>> BangPypers at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks and best regards,
> Vishal Sapre
>
> ---
>
> "So say...Day by day, in every way, I am getting better, better and better
> !!!"
> "A Strong and Positive attitude creates more miracles than anything else.
> Because...Life is 10% how you make it, and 90% how you take it"
> "Diamond is another piece of coal that did well under pressure?
> "Happiness keeps u Sweet, Trials keep u Strong,
> Sorrow keeps u Human, Failure Keeps u Humble,
> Success keeps u Glowing, But only God Keeps u Going.....Keep Going....."
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
I am but a man.
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From orsenthil at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 18:18:50 2009
From: orsenthil at gmail.com (Senthil Kumaran)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:48:50 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] problems while using pexpect. pexpect.TIMEOUT always...
Message-ID: <20090608161850.GA20698@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>

I have been trying to use pexpect and I am failing with
pexpect.TIMEOUT for all my attempts. In order to troubleshoot, I
decided to go with simplest possible one.

Here is my ssh to localhost:

[21:29:14 senthil]$ssh localhost -l senthil
senthil at localhost's password:
senthil at ubuntu:~$

And here is my pexpect script:

http://paste.pocoo.org/show/121788/

And the output I get is:

True
None
None
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "4.py", line 17, in <module>
    print child.read()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/pexpect.py", line 858,
in read
    self.expect (self.delimiter) # delimiter default is EOF
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/pexpect.py", line 1311,
in expect
    return self.expect_list(compiled_pattern_list, timeout,
searchwindowsize)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/pexpect.py", line 1325,
in expect_list
    return self.expect_loop(searcher_re(pattern_list), timeout,
searchwindowsize)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/pexpect.py", line 1409,
in expect_loop
    raise TIMEOUT (str(e) + '\n' + str(self))
pexpect.TIMEOUT: Timeout exceeded in read_nonblocking().

Complete Traceback is here:
http://paste.pocoo.org/show/121790/

Which shows that command is executed.

Can someone help me pointing out what I am doing wrong here?
Why is not working for such a simple thing as ssh to my localhost.?


Thanks,
Senthil 

From gora at srijan.in  Mon Jun  8 19:09:00 2009
From: gora at srijan.in (Gora Mohanty)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:39:00 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] problems while using pexpect. pexpect.TIMEOUT
 always...
In-Reply-To: <20090608161850.GA20698@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
References: <20090608161850.GA20698@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
Message-ID: <20090608223901.60932d69@anubis>

On Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:48:50 +0530
Senthil Kumaran <orsenthil at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have been trying to use pexpect and I am failing with
> pexpect.TIMEOUT for all my attempts. In order to troubleshoot, I
> decided to go with simplest possible one.
> 
> Here is my ssh to localhost:
> 
> [21:29:14 senthil]$ssh localhost -l senthil
> senthil at localhost's password:
> senthil at ubuntu:~$
> 
> And here is my pexpect script:
> 
> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/121788/

I am not very familiar with pexpect, but from what I remember
of Expect, there are a couple of issues here:
o You should be using p.expect() instead of time.sleep()
o After issuing a 'fortune' command you should be expecting a
  shell prompt.
o You should explicitly close the connection by logging out

Please see http://paste.pocoo.org/show/121800/ where I have used
'ls' instead of 'fortune' as I did not have the latter installed.
The pattern matches anything, i.e., whatever be the shell prompt,
and child.expect also matches EOF.

Regards,
Gora

From orsenthil at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 19:38:43 2009
From: orsenthil at gmail.com (Senthil Kumaran)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:08:43 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] problems while using pexpect.
	pexpect.TIMEOUT	always...
In-Reply-To: <20090608223901.60932d69@anubis>
References: <20090608161850.GA20698@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<20090608223901.60932d69@anubis>
Message-ID: <20090608173842.GA4482@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 10:39:00PM +0530, Gora Mohanty wrote:
> > And here is my pexpect script:
> > 
> > http://paste.pocoo.org/show/121788/
> 
> I am not very familiar with pexpect, but from what I remember
> of Expect, there are a couple of issues here:
> o You should be using p.expect() instead of time.sleep()
> o After issuing a 'fortune' command you should be expecting a
>   shell prompt.
> o You should explicitly close the connection by logging out

Thank you, Gora.
Yes, the main problem was the need to 'explicitly close the connection
by doing a logout'. 

I agree with point 1 too; but I read in some discussion that perhaps
read() was sending request too soon, so I had placed time.sleep() at
various places...  illogically before sendline too.

> Please see http://paste.pocoo.org/show/121800/ where I have used
> 'ls' instead of 'fortune' as I did not have the latter installed.
> The pattern matches anything, i.e., whatever be the shell prompt,
> and child.expect also matches EOF.

Yes, this way worked; Adding child.sendline('logout') before I did
child.read() in the original script also worked.

I got to check with pexpect a little more to see if I can just get the
output of a command only instead of the whole session.

Paramiko, is a good module to with ssh related stuff in python, but
unfortunately that is not pure python, So bundling as an option gets
ruled out.

-- 
Senthil



From noufal at gmail.com  Wed Jun 10 04:56:22 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:26:22 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] [commercial] : Stratbeans consulting looking for a
	python/PHP programmer
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906091956x1912b441ye84ce35db984d964@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,
     My close buddy's company Stratbeans consulting is looking for an
entry level Python/PHP programmer. They are a consulting firm and the
work will mostly be web related and training.

     If anyone's interested, please send your resume to  techjobs at stratbeans.com

Thanks,

-- 
~noufal

From aman.coe at gmail.com  Wed Jun 10 13:27:39 2009
From: aman.coe at gmail.com (Aman Aggarwal)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:57:39 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply"
	operator applied to list(data structure)
In-Reply-To: <882494550906100413y35e652b3m858271d77ea68fee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <882494550906100413y35e652b3m858271d77ea68fee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <882494550906100427x1a99ac60h9540f04cc656a13e@mail.gmail.com>

Hello there

I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
introductory test in Python.

I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
list(data structure).

Consider the function?make_matrix

def make_matrix(rows, columns):
"""
? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
? >>> m[1][1] = 7
? >>> m
? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
"""
return [[0] * columns] * rows




The actual output is

[[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]




The correct version of?make_matrix?is :



def make_matrix(rows, columns):
"""
? >>> make_matrix(3, 5)
? [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0]]
? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
? >>> m[1][1] = 7
? >>> m
? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
"""
matrix = []
for row in range(rows):
? ? matrix += [[0] * columns]
return matrix


The reason why first version of?make_matrix?fails ( as explained in
the book at 9.8 ) is that

"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."

I wonder why

[[0] * columns] * rows

causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."

but not

[[0] * columns]

i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.





/*
?Everything worth doing is worth doing in excess
*/

From orsenthil at gmail.com  Wed Jun 10 16:15:20 2009
From: orsenthil at gmail.com (Senthil Kumaran)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:45:20 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on
	"Multiply"	operator applied to list(data structure)
In-Reply-To: <882494550906100427x1a99ac60h9540f04cc656a13e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <882494550906100413y35e652b3m858271d77ea68fee@mail.gmail.com>
	<882494550906100427x1a99ac60h9540f04cc656a13e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090610141520.GB14638@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 04:57:39PM +0530, Aman Aggarwal wrote:
> 
> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
> introductory test in Python.
> 
> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
> list(data structure).
> 
> 
> I wonder why
> 
> [[0] * columns] * rows
> 
> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
> 
> but not
> 
> [[0] * columns]
> 
> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.


It is bit tricky in that code.. 
You have to understand that in the second option, the matrix is formed
row-by-row, wherein a new row (list) is created as [0] * columns.


This is what the second version essentially is doing:

>>> rows = 2
>>> cols = 2
>>> mat = []
>>> mat = [[0] * cols] # first row
>>> mat = mat + [[0] * cols] # second row
>>> mat
[[0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>> mat[0][0] = 'Spam'
>>> mat
[['Spam', 0], [0, 0]]
>>> 

This is the what the first version of the code was doing.

>>> rows = 2
>>> cols = 2
>>> mat = []
>>> mat = [[0] * cols] # first row
>>> mat = mat * 2 # second row
>>> mat
[[0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>> mat[0][0] = 'Spam'
>>> mat
[['Spam', 0], ['Spam', 0]]
>>> 

Does this clarify your doubt?

-- 
Senthil


From shivraj.ms at gmail.com  Wed Jun 10 15:07:27 2009
From: shivraj.ms at gmail.com (Shivaraj M S)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:07:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply"
 operator applied to list(data structure)
In-Reply-To: <882494550906100427x1a99ac60h9540f04cc656a13e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <882494550906100427x1a99ac60h9540f04cc656a13e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23961937.post@talk.nabble.com>


The first one is a reference and second one is not.
case 1:
>>> m = [[0]*2]*4
>>> m[1][1]=7
>>> m
[[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]

case 2:
>>> m=[]
>>> for r in range(4):
...     m+=[[0]*2]
...
>>> m
[[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>> m[1][1]=7
>>> m
[[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]

We can make the second case look like first just by creating a reference to
[[0]*2] which is what was done implicitly when multiplication operator was
used. 

case 2 - modified for reference:
>>> m=[]
>>> mi = [[0]*2]
>>> for r in range(4):
...     m+=mi
...
>>> m
[[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>> mi[0][1]=7
>>> m
[[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>>> m[1][1]=1
>>> m
[[0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1]]
>>> mi
[[0, 1]]




Aman Aggarwal-4 wrote:
> 
> Hello there
> 
> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
> introductory test in Python.
> 
> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
> list(data structure).
> 
> Consider the function?make_matrix
> 
> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
> """
> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
> ? >>> m
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> """
> return [[0] * columns] * rows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The actual output is
> 
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The correct version of?make_matrix?is :
> 
> 
> 
> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
> """
> ? >>> make_matrix(3, 5)
> ? [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0]]
> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
> ? >>> m
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> """
> matrix = []
> for row in range(rows):
> ? ? matrix += [[0] * columns]
> return matrix
> 
> 
> The reason why first version of?make_matrix?fails ( as explained in
> the book at 9.8 ) is that
> 
> "...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
> 
> I wonder why
> 
> [[0] * columns] * rows
> 
> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
> 
> but not
> 
> [[0] * columns]
> 
> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /*
> ?Everything worth doing is worth doing in excess
> */
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-New-bie-question---Clarification-on-%22Multiply%22-operator-applied-to-list%28data-structure%29-tp23960277p23961937.html
Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From shivraj.ms at gmail.com  Wed Jun 10 15:09:16 2009
From: shivraj.ms at gmail.com (Shivaraj M S)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:09:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply"
 operator applied to list(data structure)
In-Reply-To: <882494550906100427x1a99ac60h9540f04cc656a13e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <882494550906100427x1a99ac60h9540f04cc656a13e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23961977.post@talk.nabble.com>


The first one is a case of reference/alias and second one is not.
case 1:
>>> m = [[0]*2]*4
>>> m[1][1]=7
>>> m
[[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]

case 2:
>>> m=[]
>>> for r in range(4):
...     m+=[[0]*2]
...
>>> m
[[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>> m[1][1]=7
>>> m
[[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]

We can make the second case look like first just by creating a reference to
[[0]*2] which is what was done implicitly when multiplication operator was
used. 

case 2 - modified for reference:
>>> m=[]
>>> mi = [[0]*2]
>>> for r in range(4):
...     m+=mi
...
>>> m
[[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>> mi[0][1]=7
>>> m
[[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>>> m[1][1]=1
>>> m
[[0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1]]
>>> mi
[[0, 1]]




Aman Aggarwal-4 wrote:
> 
> Hello there
> 
> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
> introductory test in Python.
> 
> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
> list(data structure).
> 
> Consider the function?make_matrix
> 
> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
> """
> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
> ? >>> m
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> """
> return [[0] * columns] * rows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The actual output is
> 
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The correct version of?make_matrix?is :
> 
> 
> 
> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
> """
> ? >>> make_matrix(3, 5)
> ? [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0]]
> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
> ? >>> m
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> """
> matrix = []
> for row in range(rows):
> ? ? matrix += [[0] * columns]
> return matrix
> 
> 
> The reason why first version of?make_matrix?fails ( as explained in
> the book at 9.8 ) is that
> 
> "...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
> 
> I wonder why
> 
> [[0] * columns] * rows
> 
> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
> 
> but not
> 
> [[0] * columns]
> 
> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /*
> ?Everything worth doing is worth doing in excess
> */
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-New-bie-question---Clarification-on-%22Multiply%22-operator-applied-to-list%28data-structure%29-tp23960277p23961977.html
Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From sridhar.ratna at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 06:31:24 2009
From: sridhar.ratna at gmail.com (Sridhar Ratnakumar)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:31:24 -0700
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
Message-ID: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:22 AM, Srijayanth Sridhar<srijayanth at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My name is Jayanth. I am new to BangPypers and Python in general. I have
> been working on Ruby however so I am not lost or anything.
>
> I wanted to point out that on ruby-lang several posters from India seem to
> have no concept of how to phrase questions. They also lack the basic
> curiosity to try common things before they go asking around for answers.
> I've pondered for a long time why this phenomenon is particularly large here
> whereas nearly everywhere else, even in countries where English is a
> non-native language, people actually stick to basic etiquette.
>
> Either the proportion of posters who ask for answers outright is really high
> from India, or I am just being overly critical. What do you feel are some of
> the reasons for this?

Hi Jayanth,

I don't know the reasons either, but would like to know too.

I often think the best way to handle such posters is to momentarily
divert the topic of the conversation to their own interest-level,
curiosity and self-learning . For example, I'd respond to Prasad like
this:

???????????????????????????????????????
Hi Prasad,

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:29 AM, testing123 test<swtest123 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>        I am prasad.I need a help to write a python script to compare two XML
> Files.Is there any tutorial.

Yes, do you want to know? http://www.google.ca/search?q=python+xml+diff+tutorial

> Should we include any library?

Perhaps, do you want to find out?
http://www.google.ca/search?q=python+xml+diff+library

> Please help me How
> to start?

I normally just fucking google it - http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/
???????????????????????????????????????

Cheers,
Sridhar

From pradeep at btbytes.com  Fri Jun 12 07:31:11 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 01:31:11 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Sridhar
Ratnakumar<sridhar.ratna at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:22 AM, Srijayanth Sridhar<srijayanth at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know the reasons either, but would like to know too.
>
> I often think the best way to handle such posters is to momentarily
> divert the topic of the conversation to their own interest-level,
> curiosity and self-learning .
</snip>..

I think it's best to ignore mails from users who do not care enough to
use their real name/nick while asking questions. The user in question
 introduced himself as prasad, but we scan mail titles before reading
mail content. Most people wouldn't care to  read a mail from
"testing123 test<swtest123 at gmail.com>", let alone answer it.  Online
forums are just like real life communities, where people  judge  you
by what you say and how you say it.  It's hard to relate to a
anonymous, faceless name like "testing 123".  Use your real name. [1]

If the same question is asked by some one who "appears" to be a real
person, it might still be worth answering them, at the same time also
pointing them to a net etiquette
link [2]. In good faith, we can assume that the user in question is
really new to using forums/mailing lists etc.,

Over time, most people do learn how to do their home work and in turn
ask smart questions.

I'll see whether our membership welcome messages can be improved to
reflect this.

Happy hacking,
Pradeep

[1] http://informationarchitects.jp/use-your-real-name-when-you-comment/
[2] http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 08:16:54 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:46:54 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906112316s54d4d856h6cd1cfe68309bf8b@mail.gmail.com>

Good points, but what I am most curious about is why this phenomenon is so
prevalent in the Indian dev community and not as pervasive elsewhere. The
ruby community is rife with apt examples. The average Indian developer will
pop up and demand answers for a really silly Rails question or something.

Jayanth

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Pradeep Gowda <pradeep at btbytes.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Sridhar
> Ratnakumar<sridhar.ratna at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:22 AM, Srijayanth Sridhar<srijayanth at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I don't know the reasons either, but would like to know too.
> >
> > I often think the best way to handle such posters is to momentarily
> > divert the topic of the conversation to their own interest-level,
> > curiosity and self-learning .
> </snip>..
>
> I think it's best to ignore mails from users who do not care enough to
> use their real name/nick while asking questions. The user in question
>  introduced himself as prasad, but we scan mail titles before reading
> mail content. Most people wouldn't care to  read a mail from
> "testing123 test<swtest123 at gmail.com>", let alone answer it.  Online
> forums are just like real life communities, where people  judge  you
> by what you say and how you say it.  It's hard to relate to a
> anonymous, faceless name like "testing 123".  Use your real name. [1]
>
> If the same question is asked by some one who "appears" to be a real
> person, it might still be worth answering them, at the same time also
> pointing them to a net etiquette
> link [2]. In good faith, we can assume that the user in question is
> really new to using forums/mailing lists etc.,
>
> Over time, most people do learn how to do their home work and in turn
> ask smart questions.
>
> I'll see whether our membership welcome messages can be improved to
> reflect this.
>
> Happy hacking,
> Pradeep
>
> [1] http://informationarchitects.jp/use-your-real-name-when-you-comment/
> [2] http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
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From stallomir at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 08:20:10 2009
From: stallomir at gmail.com (Mandar Gokhale)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:50:10 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906112316s54d4d856h6cd1cfe68309bf8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com> 
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5ead360a0906112316s54d4d856h6cd1cfe68309bf8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3fb38580906112320i1aab68e4va5507214313d522b@mail.gmail.com>

Depends upon the focus of the thread as well right? I mean a lot of threads,
like this one, will have an overwhelming prevalence of Indian people. Seems
to me that labeling the average Indian developer that way just might be a
tad unfair.



On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Srijayanth Sridhar
<srijayanth at gmail.com>wrote:

> Good points, but what I am most curious about is why this phenomenon is so
> prevalent in the Indian dev community and not as pervasive elsewhere. The
> ruby community is rife with apt examples. The average Indian developer will
> pop up and demand answers for a really silly Rails question or something.
>
> Jayanth
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Pradeep Gowda <pradeep at btbytes.com>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Sridhar
>> Ratnakumar<sridhar.ratna at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:22 AM, Srijayanth Sridhar<srijayanth at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I don't know the reasons either, but would like to know too.
>> >
>> > I often think the best way to handle such posters is to momentarily
>> > divert the topic of the conversation to their own interest-level,
>> > curiosity and self-learning .
>> </snip>..
>>
>> I think it's best to ignore mails from users who do not care enough to
>> use their real name/nick while asking questions. The user in question
>>  introduced himself as prasad, but we scan mail titles before reading
>> mail content. Most people wouldn't care to  read a mail from
>> "testing123 test<swtest123 at gmail.com>", let alone answer it.  Online
>> forums are just like real life communities, where people  judge  you
>> by what you say and how you say it.  It's hard to relate to a
>> anonymous, faceless name like "testing 123".  Use your real name. [1]
>>
>> If the same question is asked by some one who "appears" to be a real
>> person, it might still be worth answering them, at the same time also
>> pointing them to a net etiquette
>> link [2]. In good faith, we can assume that the user in question is
>> really new to using forums/mailing lists etc.,
>>
>> Over time, most people do learn how to do their home work and in turn
>> ask smart questions.
>>
>> I'll see whether our membership welcome messages can be improved to
>> reflect this.
>>
>> Happy hacking,
>> Pradeep
>>
>> [1] http://informationarchitects.jp/use-your-real-name-when-you-comment/
>> [2] http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>
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From sridhar.ratna at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 08:20:34 2009
From: sridhar.ratna at gmail.com (Sridhar Ratnakumar)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:20:34 -0700
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com> 
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Pradeep Gowda<pradeep at btbytes.com> wrote:
> (...) it might still be worth answering them,

In light of this conversation's topic, we certainly wouldn't
spoon-feed them, would we?

> at the same time also
> pointing them to a net etiquette
> link [2].
> [2] http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Now do you think a person who is lazy to type a few characters in an
Internet search engine (as evidenced by "Is there any tutorial. Should
we include any library?") would be interested at all in reading a
60,000 words document?

From aman.coe at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 08:25:26 2009
From: aman.coe at gmail.com (Aman Aggarwal)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:55:26 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1244714402.4069.bangpypers@python.org>
References: <mailman.7.1244714402.4069.bangpypers@python.org>
Message-ID: <882494550906112325t2e6300b8gea5edeea98a4b36a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:30 PM, <bangpypers-request at python.org> wrote:
> Send BangPypers mailing list submissions to
> ? ? ? ?bangpypers at python.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> ? ? ? ?http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> ? ? ? ?bangpypers-request at python.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> ? ? ? ?bangpypers-owner at python.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of BangPypers digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> ? 1. [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply" ? operator
> ? ? ?applied to list(data structure) (Aman Aggarwal)
> ? 2. Re: [New bie question ] Clarification on ?"Multiply" ? ? ?operator
> ? ? ?applied to list(data structure) (Senthil Kumaran)
> ? 3. Re: [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply" operator
> ? ? ?applied to list(data structure) (Shivaraj M S)
> ? 4. Re: [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply" operator
> ? ? ?applied to list(data structure) (Shivaraj M S)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:57:39 +0530
> From: Aman Aggarwal <aman.coe at gmail.com>
> To: bangpypers <bangpypers at python.org>
> Subject: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply"
> ? ? ? ?operator applied to list(data structure)
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<882494550906100427x1a99ac60h9540f04cc656a13e at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hello there
>
> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
> introductory test in Python.
>
> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
> list(data structure).
>
> Consider the function?make_matrix
>
> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
> """
> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
> ? >>> m
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> """
> return [[0] * columns] * rows
>
>
>
>
> The actual output is
>
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>
>
>
>
> The correct version of?make_matrix?is :
>
>
>
> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
> """
> ? >>> make_matrix(3, 5)
> ? [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0]]
> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
> ? >>> m
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> """
> matrix = []
> for row in range(rows):
> ? ? matrix += [[0] * columns]
> return matrix
>
>
> The reason why first version of?make_matrix?fails ( as explained in
> the book at 9.8 ) is that
>
> "...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>
> I wonder why
>
> [[0] * columns] * rows
>
> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>
> but not
>
> [[0] * columns]
>
> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.
>
>
>
>
>
> /*
> ?Everything worth doing is worth doing in excess
> */
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:45:20 +0530
> From: Senthil Kumaran <orsenthil at gmail.com>
> To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India <bangpypers at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on
> ? ? ? ?"Multiply" ? ? ?operator applied to list(data structure)
> Message-ID: <20090610141520.GB14638 at ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 04:57:39PM +0530, Aman Aggarwal wrote:
>>
>> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
>> introductory test in Python.
>>
>> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
>> list(data structure).
>>
>>
>> I wonder why
>>
>> [[0] * columns] * rows
>>
>> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>>
>> but not
>>
>> [[0] * columns]
>>
>> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.
>
>
> It is bit tricky in that code..
> You have to understand that in the second option, the matrix is formed
> row-by-row, wherein a new row (list) is created as [0] * columns.
>
>
> This is what the second version essentially is doing:
>
>>>> rows = 2
>>>> cols = 2
>>>> mat = []
>>>> mat = [[0] * cols] # first row
>>>> mat = mat + [[0] * cols] # second row
>>>> mat
> [[0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> mat[0][0] = 'Spam'
>>>> mat
> [['Spam', 0], [0, 0]]
>>>>
>
> This is the what the first version of the code was doing.
>
>>>> rows = 2
>>>> cols = 2
>>>> mat = []
>>>> mat = [[0] * cols] # first row
>>>> mat = mat * 2 # second row
>>>> mat
> [[0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> mat[0][0] = 'Spam'
>>>> mat
> [['Spam', 0], ['Spam', 0]]
>>>>
>
> Does this clarify your doubt?
>
> --
> Senthil
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:07:27 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Shivaraj M S <shivraj.ms at gmail.com>
> To: bangpypers at python.org
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on
> ? ? ? ?"Multiply" operator applied to list(data structure)
> Message-ID: <23961937.post at talk.nabble.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
> The first one is a reference and second one is not.
> case 1:
>>>> m = [[0]*2]*4
>>>> m[1][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>
> case 2:
>>>> m=[]
>>>> for r in range(4):
> ... ? ? m+=[[0]*2]
> ...
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> m[1][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>
> We can make the second case look like first just by creating a reference to
> [[0]*2] which is what was done implicitly when multiplication operator was
> used.
>
> case 2 - modified for reference:
>>>> m=[]
>>>> mi = [[0]*2]
>>>> for r in range(4):
> ... ? ? m+=mi
> ...
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> mi[0][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>>>> m[1][1]=1
>>>> m
> [[0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1]]
>>>> mi
> [[0, 1]]
>
>
>
>
> Aman Aggarwal-4 wrote:
>>
>> Hello there
>>
>> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
>> introductory test in Python.
>>
>> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
>> list(data structure).
>>
>> Consider the function?make_matrix
>>
>> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
>> """
>> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
>> ? >>> m
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> """
>> return [[0] * columns] * rows
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The actual output is
>>
>> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The correct version of?make_matrix?is :
>>
>>
>>
>> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
>> """
>> ? >>> make_matrix(3, 5)
>> ? [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0]]
>> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
>> ? >>> m
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> """
>> matrix = []
>> for row in range(rows):
>> ? ? matrix += [[0] * columns]
>> return matrix
>>
>>
>> The reason why first version of?make_matrix?fails ( as explained in
>> the book at 9.8 ) is that
>>
>> "...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>>
>> I wonder why
>>
>> [[0] * columns] * rows
>>
>> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>>
>> but not
>>
>> [[0] * columns]
>>
>> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> /*
>> ?Everything worth doing is worth doing in excess
>> */
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-New-bie-question---Clarification-on-%22Multiply%22-operator-applied-to-list%28data-structure%29-tp23960277p23961937.html
> Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:09:16 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Shivaraj M S <shivraj.ms at gmail.com>
> To: bangpypers at python.org
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on
> ? ? ? ?"Multiply" operator applied to list(data structure)
> Message-ID: <23961977.post at talk.nabble.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
> The first one is a case of reference/alias and second one is not.
> case 1:
>>>> m = [[0]*2]*4
>>>> m[1][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>
> case 2:
>>>> m=[]
>>>> for r in range(4):
> ... ? ? m+=[[0]*2]
> ...
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> m[1][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>
> We can make the second case look like first just by creating a reference to
> [[0]*2] which is what was done implicitly when multiplication operator was
> used.
>
> case 2 - modified for reference:
>>>> m=[]
>>>> mi = [[0]*2]
>>>> for r in range(4):
> ... ? ? m+=mi
> ...
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> mi[0][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>>>> m[1][1]=1
>>>> m
> [[0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1]]
>>>> mi
> [[0, 1]]
>
>
>
>
> Aman Aggarwal-4 wrote:
>>
>> Hello there
>>
>> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
>> introductory test in Python.
>>
>> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
>> list(data structure).
>>
>> Consider the function?make_matrix
>>
>> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
>> """
>> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
>> ? >>> m
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> """
>> return [[0] * columns] * rows
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The actual output is
>>
>> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The correct version of?make_matrix?is :
>>
>>
>>
>> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
>> """
>> ? >>> make_matrix(3, 5)
>> ? [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0]]
>> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
>> ? >>> m
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> """
>> matrix = []
>> for row in range(rows):
>> ? ? matrix += [[0] * columns]
>> return matrix
>>
>>
>> The reason why first version of?make_matrix?fails ( as explained in
>> the book at 9.8 ) is that
>>
>> "...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>>
>> I wonder why
>>
>> [[0] * columns] * rows
>>
>> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>>
>> but not
>>
>> [[0] * columns]
>>
>> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> /*
>> ?Everything worth doing is worth doing in excess
>> */
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-New-bie-question---Clarification-on-%22Multiply%22-operator-applied-to-list%28data-structure%29-tp23960277p23961977.html
> Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>
> End of BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 9
> *****************************************
>



Hi there

thanks for the response.

I posted the same question here :


http://stackoverflow.com/questions/974931/multiply-operator-applied-to-listdata-structure



Kindly read it.

Thanks and kind regards
Aman

From noufal at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 08:36:51 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:06:51 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <882494550906112325t2e6300b8gea5edeea98a4b36a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1244714402.4069.bangpypers@python.org>
	<882494550906112325t2e6300b8gea5edeea98a4b36a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906112336m58229557xdf89f110f6094934@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Aman Aggarwal<aman.coe at gmail.com> wrote:
[..]
> thanks for the response.
>
> I posted the same question here :
>
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/974931/multiply-operator-applied-to-listdata-structure
[..]

You're welcome but please don't quote entire digests back to the list. :)

-- 
~noufal

From sriramnrn at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 08:43:14 2009
From: sriramnrn at gmail.com (Sriram Narayanan)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:13:14 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Sridhar
Ratnakumar<sridhar.ratna at gmail.com> wrote:
> Now do you think a person who is lazy to type a few characters in an
> Internet search engine (as evidenced by "Is there any tutorial. Should
> we include any library?") would be interested at all in reading a
> 60,000 words document?

I've concluded that a vast number of our developers are actually
incompetent, and also clueless on how to self-study and to conduct a
search. Perhaps our education system has conditioned their minds to
mug up and to read various study guides, and they are unaware that in
the real world, self help is necessary.

Having said that, I have felt it useful to reply to such posts with a
google search url, than to merely ask them to buzz off. I've observed
that with such replies, free loaders understand that they will get
responses, but not free lunches.

-- Sriram

From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 08:51:34 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:21:34 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I second your thoughts on incompetence. My company's conducting
interviews of freshers, and you'll be amazed at the answers I get for "What
is a hash table?". One bright bulb answered it with "It is a hash function
table". My standard opening interview question is to ask them to write a
simple C program that reverses a string. Most get that wrong. In two years,
I've only seen about 10 candidates get that right.

I've come to lament the factory like nature of IT in India. People learn
extremely minimal subset of specialized skills. I've had chaps who can't see
beyond .NET or Java very simply because these are industry idioms. I tell
them stuff about perl, python or ruby and I get back "but those are
scripting languages".

Jayanth

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Sriram Narayanan <sriramnrn at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Sridhar
> Ratnakumar<sridhar.ratna at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Now do you think a person who is lazy to type a few characters in an
> > Internet search engine (as evidenced by "Is there any tutorial. Should
> > we include any library?") would be interested at all in reading a
> > 60,000 words document?
>
> I've concluded that a vast number of our developers are actually
> incompetent, and also clueless on how to self-study and to conduct a
> search. Perhaps our education system has conditioned their minds to
> mug up and to read various study guides, and they are unaware that in
> the real world, self help is necessary.
>
> Having said that, I have felt it useful to reply to such posts with a
> google search url, than to merely ask them to buzz off. I've observed
> that with such replies, free loaders understand that they will get
> responses, but not free lunches.
>
> -- Sriram
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
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From aman.coe at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 08:51:51 2009
From: aman.coe at gmail.com (Aman Aggarwal)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:21:51 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply"
	operator applied to list(data structure)
Message-ID: <882494550906112351o1b5b857v8df919832674eee2@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:30 PM, <bangpypers-request at python.org> wrote:
> Send BangPypers mailing list submissions to
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> than "Re: Contents of BangPypers digest..."
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> Today's Topics:
>
> ? 1. [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply" ? operator
> ? ? ?applied to list(data structure) (Aman Aggarwal)
> ? 2. Re: [New bie question ] Clarification on ?"Multiply" ? ? ?operator
> ? ? ?applied to list(data structure) (Senthil Kumaran)
> ? 3. Re: [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply" operator
> ? ? ?applied to list(data structure) (Shivaraj M S)
> ? 4. Re: [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply" operator
> ? ? ?applied to list(data structure) (Shivaraj M S)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:57:39 +0530
> From: Aman Aggarwal <aman.coe at gmail.com>
> To: bangpypers <bangpypers at python.org>
> Subject: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on "Multiply"
> ? ? ? ?operator applied to list(data structure)
> Message-ID:
> ? ? ? ?<882494550906100427x1a99ac60h9540f04cc656a13e at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hello there
>
> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
> introductory test in Python.
>
> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
> list(data structure).
>
> Consider the function?make_matrix
>
> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
> """
> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
> ? >>> m
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> """
> return [[0] * columns] * rows
>
>
>
>
> The actual output is
>
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>
>
>
>
> The correct version of?make_matrix?is :
>
>
>
> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
> """
> ? >>> make_matrix(3, 5)
> ? [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0]]
> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
> ? >>> m
> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
> """
> matrix = []
> for row in range(rows):
> ? ? matrix += [[0] * columns]
> return matrix
>
>
> The reason why first version of?make_matrix?fails ( as explained in
> the book at 9.8 ) is that
>
> "...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>
> I wonder why
>
> [[0] * columns] * rows
>
> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>
> but not
>
> [[0] * columns]
>
> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.
>
>
>
>
>
> /*
> ?Everything worth doing is worth doing in excess
> */
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:45:20 +0530
> From: Senthil Kumaran <orsenthil at gmail.com>
> To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India <bangpypers at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on
> ? ? ? ?"Multiply" ? ? ?operator applied to list(data structure)
> Message-ID: <20090610141520.GB14638 at ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 04:57:39PM +0530, Aman Aggarwal wrote:
>>
>> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
>> introductory test in Python.
>>
>> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
>> list(data structure).
>>
>>
>> I wonder why
>>
>> [[0] * columns] * rows
>>
>> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>>
>> but not
>>
>> [[0] * columns]
>>
>> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.
>
>
> It is bit tricky in that code..
> You have to understand that in the second option, the matrix is formed
> row-by-row, wherein a new row (list) is created as [0] * columns.
>
>
> This is what the second version essentially is doing:
>
>>>> rows = 2
>>>> cols = 2
>>>> mat = []
>>>> mat = [[0] * cols] # first row
>>>> mat = mat + [[0] * cols] # second row
>>>> mat
> [[0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> mat[0][0] = 'Spam'
>>>> mat
> [['Spam', 0], [0, 0]]
>>>>
>
> This is the what the first version of the code was doing.
>
>>>> rows = 2
>>>> cols = 2
>>>> mat = []
>>>> mat = [[0] * cols] # first row
>>>> mat = mat * 2 # second row
>>>> mat
> [[0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> mat[0][0] = 'Spam'
>>>> mat
> [['Spam', 0], ['Spam', 0]]
>>>>
>
> Does this clarify your doubt?
>
> --
> Senthil
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:07:27 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Shivaraj M S <shivraj.ms at gmail.com>
> To: bangpypers at python.org
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on
> ? ? ? ?"Multiply" operator applied to list(data structure)
> Message-ID: <23961937.post at talk.nabble.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
> The first one is a reference and second one is not.
> case 1:
>>>> m = [[0]*2]*4
>>>> m[1][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>
> case 2:
>>>> m=[]
>>>> for r in range(4):
> ... ? ? m+=[[0]*2]
> ...
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> m[1][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>
> We can make the second case look like first just by creating a reference to
> [[0]*2] which is what was done implicitly when multiplication operator was
> used.
>
> case 2 - modified for reference:
>>>> m=[]
>>>> mi = [[0]*2]
>>>> for r in range(4):
> ... ? ? m+=mi
> ...
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> mi[0][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>>>> m[1][1]=1
>>>> m
> [[0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1]]
>>>> mi
> [[0, 1]]
>
>
>
>
> Aman Aggarwal-4 wrote:
>>
>> Hello there
>>
>> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
>> introductory test in Python.
>>
>> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
>> list(data structure).
>>
>> Consider the function?make_matrix
>>
>> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
>> """
>> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
>> ? >>> m
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> """
>> return [[0] * columns] * rows
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The actual output is
>>
>> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The correct version of?make_matrix?is :
>>
>>
>>
>> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
>> """
>> ? >>> make_matrix(3, 5)
>> ? [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0]]
>> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
>> ? >>> m
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> """
>> matrix = []
>> for row in range(rows):
>> ? ? matrix += [[0] * columns]
>> return matrix
>>
>>
>> The reason why first version of?make_matrix?fails ( as explained in
>> the book at 9.8 ) is that
>>
>> "...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>>
>> I wonder why
>>
>> [[0] * columns] * rows
>>
>> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>>
>> but not
>>
>> [[0] * columns]
>>
>> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> /*
>> ?Everything worth doing is worth doing in excess
>> */
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-New-bie-question---Clarification-on-%22Multiply%22-operator-applied-to-list%28data-structure%29-tp23960277p23961937.html
> Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:09:16 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Shivaraj M S <shivraj.ms at gmail.com>
> To: bangpypers at python.org
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] [New bie question ] Clarification on
> ? ? ? ?"Multiply" operator applied to list(data structure)
> Message-ID: <23961977.post at talk.nabble.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
> The first one is a case of reference/alias and second one is not.
> case 1:
>>>> m = [[0]*2]*4
>>>> m[1][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>
> case 2:
>>>> m=[]
>>>> for r in range(4):
> ... ? ? m+=[[0]*2]
> ...
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> m[1][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>
> We can make the second case look like first just by creating a reference to
> [[0]*2] which is what was done implicitly when multiplication operator was
> used.
>
> case 2 - modified for reference:
>>>> m=[]
>>>> mi = [[0]*2]
>>>> for r in range(4):
> ... ? ? m+=mi
> ...
>>>> m
> [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>> mi[0][1]=7
>>>> m
> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>>>> m[1][1]=1
>>>> m
> [[0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1], [0, 1]]
>>>> mi
> [[0, 1]]
>
>
>
>
> Aman Aggarwal-4 wrote:
>>
>> Hello there
>>
>> I am reading?"How to think like a computer scientist"?which is an
>> introductory test in Python.
>>
>> I wanna clarify the behaviour of multiply operator(*) when applied to
>> list(data structure).
>>
>> Consider the function?make_matrix
>>
>> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
>> """
>> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
>> ? >>> m
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> """
>> return [[0] * columns] * rows
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The actual output is
>>
>> [[0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7], [0, 7]]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The correct version of?make_matrix?is :
>>
>>
>>
>> def make_matrix(rows, columns):
>> """
>> ? >>> make_matrix(3, 5)
>> ? [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0]]
>> ? >>> make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> ? >>> m = make_matrix(4, 2)
>> ? >>> m[1][1] = 7
>> ? >>> m
>> ? [[0, 0], [0, 7], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>> """
>> matrix = []
>> for row in range(rows):
>> ? ? matrix += [[0] * columns]
>> return matrix
>>
>>
>> The reason why first version of?make_matrix?fails ( as explained in
>> the book at 9.8 ) is that
>>
>> "...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>>
>> I wonder why
>>
>> [[0] * columns] * rows
>>
>> causes?"...each row is an alias of the other rows..."
>>
>> but not
>>
>> [[0] * columns]
>>
>> i.e. why each [0] in a row is not an alias of other row element.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> /*
>> ?Everything worth doing is worth doing in excess
>> */
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/-New-bie-question---Clarification-on-%22Multiply%22-operator-applied-to-list%28data-structure%29-tp23960277p23961977.html
> Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>
> End of BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 9
> *****************************************
>

Hi there

thanks for the response.

I posted the same question here :


http://stackoverflow.com/questions/974931/multiply-operator-applied-to-listdata-structure


The discussions on that page clarify my doubt.
Kindly read it.


Thanks and kind regards
Aman

From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 09:04:18 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:34:18 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906120004n27ea7072n51e222d5b2413dc9@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

wrt my earlier question, the following blog is a nice writeup. I realize its
Ruby, but the general principles of posting on a newsgroup/forum apply.

http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/posts/jamesbritt/and_your_Mom_too.html

Thank you,

Jayanth


On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Srijayanth Sridhar
<srijayanth at gmail.com>wrote:

> Yeah, I second your thoughts on incompetence. My company's conducting
> interviews of freshers, and you'll be amazed at the answers I get for "What
> is a hash table?". One bright bulb answered it with "It is a hash function
> table". My standard opening interview question is to ask them to write a
> simple C program that reverses a string. Most get that wrong. In two years,
> I've only seen about 10 candidates get that right.
>
> I've come to lament the factory like nature of IT in India. People learn
> extremely minimal subset of specialized skills. I've had chaps who can't see
> beyond .NET or Java very simply because these are industry idioms. I tell
> them stuff about perl, python or ruby and I get back "but those are
> scripting languages".
>
> Jayanth
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Sriram Narayanan <sriramnrn at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Sridhar
>> Ratnakumar<sridhar.ratna at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Now do you think a person who is lazy to type a few characters in an
>> > Internet search engine (as evidenced by "Is there any tutorial. Should
>> > we include any library?") would be interested at all in reading a
>> > 60,000 words document?
>>
>> I've concluded that a vast number of our developers are actually
>> incompetent, and also clueless on how to self-study and to conduct a
>> search. Perhaps our education system has conditioned their minds to
>> mug up and to read various study guides, and they are unaware that in
>> the real world, self help is necessary.
>>
>> Having said that, I have felt it useful to reply to such posts with a
>> google search url, than to merely ask them to buzz off. I've observed
>> that with such replies, free loaders understand that they will get
>> responses, but not free lunches.
>>
>> -- Sriram
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>
>
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From lawgon at au-kbc.org  Fri Jun 12 09:27:05 2009
From: lawgon at au-kbc.org (Kenneth Gonsalves)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:57:05 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906120004n27ea7072n51e222d5b2413dc9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120004n27ea7072n51e222d5b2413dc9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200906121257.05407.lawgon@au-kbc.org>

On Friday 12 June 2009 12:34:18 Srijayanth Sridhar wrote:
> wrt my earlier question, the following blog is a nice writeup. I realize
> its Ruby, but the general principles of posting on a newsgroup/forum apply.
>
> http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/posts/jamesbritt/and_your_Mom_too.html

including not top posting?
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

From noufal at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 09:25:56 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:55:56 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906120025i2195f475na5da987774010eb6@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Srijayanth
Sridhar<srijayanth at gmail.com> wrote:
[..]
> I've come to lament the factory like nature of IT in India. People learn
> extremely minimal subset of specialized skills. I've had chaps who can't see
> beyond .NET or Java very simply because these are industry idioms. I tell
> them stuff about perl, python or ruby and I get back "but those are
> scripting languages".
[..]

Code monkey culture. I know of atleast some companies that *look* for
such people because they want them to do grunt work like fixing tiny
bugs, 'resolving issues' and such. All the juicy work (if any) are
done by competent people. The unwashed masses are used to oil the
cogs.

Even colleges are moving towards teaching vocational rather than
technical skills.

-- 
~noufal

From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 09:35:31 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:05:31 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <200906121257.05407.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120004n27ea7072n51e222d5b2413dc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121257.05407.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906120035g5b2084ccr29f65dad327a4dcb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon at au-kbc.org>wrote:

> On Friday 12 June 2009 12:34:18 Srijayanth Sridhar wrote:
> > wrt my earlier question, the following blog is a nice writeup. I realize
> > its Ruby, but the general principles of posting on a newsgroup/forum
> apply.
> >
> > http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/posts/jamesbritt/and_your_Mom_too.html
>
> including not top posting?
> --
> regards
> Kenneth Gonsalves
> Associate
> NRC-FOSS
> http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



Yeah that too :)

Jayanth
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From rmathews at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 10:29:09 2009
From: rmathews at gmail.com (Roshan Mathews)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:59:09 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Sriram Narayanan<sriramnrn at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've concluded that a vast number of our developers are actually
> incompetent, and also clueless on how to self-study and to conduct a
> search. Perhaps our education system has conditioned their minds to
> mug up and to read various study guides, and they are unaware that in
> the real world, self help is necessary.
>
That's too harsh.  But there might be a kernel of truth in there, or
it wouldn't have rankled anyone.  Maybe if someone has found out
enough to locate a mailing list and post to it, we should just answer
their questions and tell them how to go about things in the future.  I
shouldn't talk, since I usually just ignore mails that are irritating,
but if you care enough to reply, you might as well get your message
across, and being snide isn't the way to go about that. :)

Roshan

From abpillai at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 10:32:41 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:02:41 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906112316s54d4d856h6cd1cfe68309bf8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906112316s54d4d856h6cd1cfe68309bf8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906120132q512458ben51f6f5b3daab6814@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Srijayanth Sridhar
<srijayanth at gmail.com>wrote:

> Good points, but what I am most curious about is why this phenomenon is so
> prevalent in the Indian dev community and not as pervasive elsewhere. The
> ruby community is rife with apt examples. The average Indian developer will
> pop up and demand answers for a really silly Rails question or something.


 Yes, this seems like a birth-right for a lot of Indian developers. It is as
if they
consider the effort to post in a forum to be less than the effort involved
in
googling and getting the answer directly.

 I have seen a lot of developers with Indian names getting flamed and burned
 at several comp.lang.* groups for posting stupid questions, which can often
 be just fu***ng googled.

As someone posted previously, this seems to be  a result of the kind of
education system that thrives here which favors mugging up rather than
original research and exploration.


>
>


-- 
-Anand
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From stallomir at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 10:35:18 2009
From: stallomir at gmail.com (Mandar Gokhale)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:05:18 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com> 
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3fb38580906120135m3aef15efmf5af6df6064c479d@mail.gmail.com>

Jayanth: I've come to lament the factory like nature of IT in India. People
learn extremely minimal subset of specialized skills. I've had chaps who
can't see beyond .NET or Java very simply because these are industry idioms.
I tell them stuff about perl, python or ruby and I get back "but those are
scripting languages".


Just a slightly unrelated question here.......doesn't the industry follow
.NET and Java more than Python/Perl as well? (I've heard this said by
several people in the States as well.) So maybe a change in the industry
mindset would help..

(Note, I haven't had *any *industry experience whatsoever, the thing about
.NET/Java  being more prevalent is based on second-hand knowledge. I myself
use Python as a language for scientific purposes)




-Mandar
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From lawgon at au-kbc.org  Fri Jun 12 10:39:52 2009
From: lawgon at au-kbc.org (Kenneth Gonsalves)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:09:52 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>

On Friday 12 June 2009 13:59:09 Roshan Mathews wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Sriram Narayanan<sriramnrn at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> > I've concluded that a vast number of our developers are actually
> > incompetent, and also clueless on how to self-study and to conduct a
> > search. Perhaps our education system has conditioned their minds to
> > mug up and to read various study guides, and they are unaware that in
> > the real world, self help is necessary.
>
> That's too harsh. ?But there might be a kernel of truth in there, or
> it wouldn't have rankled anyone. ?Maybe if someone has found out
> enough to locate a mailing list and post to it, we should just answer
> their questions and tell them how to go about things in the future. ?I
> shouldn't talk, since I usually just ignore mails that are irritating,
> but if you care enough to reply, you might as well get your message
> across, and being snide isn't the way to go about that. :)

to add my 2 paise - I almost automatically recognise a fellow countryman on 
mailing lists and IRC by the fact that the post will be in SMS language, vague 
about the problem faced, often in the wrong forum and demanding 'plz send 
solution ASAP'.

the problem is that our education systems teaches tools and not concepts. And 
industry also wants people who can use tools and cannot think for themselves. 
Remember that most of our so-called IT industry does not produce software, but 
just writes code.

so when these poor souls venture into a world where creative thinking, self 
help, concept learning etc etc rules, they are as bewildered as a chicken 
trying to cross MG road. (or for that matter a small town guy like me trying 
to cross St Marks road)
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 10:47:27 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:17:27 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <c3fb38580906120135m3aef15efmf5af6df6064c479d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120135m3aef15efmf5af6df6064c479d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906120147m4d772458sa643aa36e48913df@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Just a slightly unrelated question here.......doesn't the industry follow
> .NET and Java more than Python/Perl as well? (I've heard this said by
> several people in the States as well.) So maybe a change in the industry
> mindset would help..
>
>
 True, but my larger point was about their unwillingness to discover or
learn.

Jayanth
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From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 11:00:57 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:30:57 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>

>
> the problem is that our education systems teaches tools and not concepts.
> And
> industry also wants people who can use tools and cannot think for
> themselves.
> Remember that most of our so-called IT industry does not produce software,
> but
> just writes code.
>

While I agree that the problem lies fundamentally with the education system
somewhere, I am not sure the problem is as simple as the system teaching
tool usage as opposed to concepts. In fact, I would go so far as to argue
that the system teaches them nothing. I've seen certain trends that I find
interesting, not just at a technical but at a sociological level.

You mentioned you are from a small city, and this is something that
interests me tremendously. I work for a company which used to have 10-12
developers from small towns in AP. These 10-12 people formed an interesting
community where they would help each other out. The first guy to come in,
would have all the relevant ebooks downloaded and ready to serve to the next
person who would come in and so on.

I find it particularly interesting because this ladder scheme of theirs
indicates a few things:

a) Their education system didn't have them prepped for such a scenario
b) They feel the need to stick to each other because they don't have outside
help
c) They have industrialized a certain process that works to their personal
benefit.

In other words, they are working the system. I don't entirely blame them
since given their background, its only natural for them to seek out what
they believe is a better life for them. I also don't want to be mean to
them.

What are your experiences as a person from a "small town"? My question is
more directed towards your 'programming culture' now vis-a-vis to your
programming culture from your small town?

Jayanth
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From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 11:12:53 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:42:53 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>

As we speak:

http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/339092

Jayanth

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Srijayanth Sridhar <srijayanth at gmail.com>wrote:

> the problem is that our education systems teaches tools and not concepts.
>> And
>> industry also wants people who can use tools and cannot think for
>> themselves.
>> Remember that most of our so-called IT industry does not produce software,
>> but
>> just writes code.
>>
>
> While I agree that the problem lies fundamentally with the education system
> somewhere, I am not sure the problem is as simple as the system teaching
> tool usage as opposed to concepts. In fact, I would go so far as to argue
> that the system teaches them nothing. I've seen certain trends that I find
> interesting, not just at a technical but at a sociological level.
>
> You mentioned you are from a small city, and this is something that
> interests me tremendously. I work for a company which used to have 10-12
> developers from small towns in AP. These 10-12 people formed an interesting
> community where they would help each other out. The first guy to come in,
> would have all the relevant ebooks downloaded and ready to serve to the next
> person who would come in and so on.
>
> I find it particularly interesting because this ladder scheme of theirs
> indicates a few things:
>
> a) Their education system didn't have them prepped for such a scenario
> b) They feel the need to stick to each other because they don't have
> outside help
> c) They have industrialized a certain process that works to their personal
> benefit.
>
> In other words, they are working the system. I don't entirely blame them
> since given their background, its only natural for them to seek out what
> they believe is a better life for them. I also don't want to be mean to
> them.
>
> What are your experiences as a person from a "small town"? My question is
> more directed towards your 'programming culture' now vis-a-vis to your
> programming culture from your small town?
>
> Jayanth
>
>
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From stallomir at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 11:22:57 2009
From: stallomir at gmail.com (Mandar Gokhale)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:52:57 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com> 
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>

Okay, that was really hilarious. But I still believe the issue is not
confined to Indian developers but *stupid* developers from everywhere. Maybe
the sheer size of the software industry in India as well as the nature of a
lot of work done in that industry creates a lot of people who want instant
answers for their questions and do not bothering conforming to etiquette
while requesting them.

-Mandar
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From stallomir at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 11:23:14 2009
From: stallomir at gmail.com (Mandar Gokhale)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:53:14 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com> 
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com> 
	<c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3fb38580906120223j6d2128e4o69d213b6ea45921@mail.gmail.com>

*not bothering
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From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 11:30:01 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:00:01 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906120230t3b03666bp8e06c6a4a146b81b@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Mandar Gokhale <stallomir at gmail.com> wrote:

> Okay, that was really hilarious. But I still believe the issue is not
> confined to Indian developers but *stupid* developers from everywhere. Maybe
> the sheer size of the software industry in India as well as the nature of a
> lot of work done in that industry creates a lot of people who want instant
> answers for their questions and do not bothering conforming to etiquette
> while requesting them.
>
> -Mandar
>


I've considered this argument of a large working population being the reason
for this. However this argument doesn't hold up because, if this supposition
were true, then what would also be true is that the number of posts by
people in the Indian developer community would be high. I find, very often,
that this is not the case. Esp in the Ruby community. Nearly every Indian
dev is somehow Rails connected, if at all, and nearly all of them ask poor
questions.

Jayanth
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From abpillai at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 11:47:15 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:17:15 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906120230t3b03666bp8e06c6a4a146b81b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120230t3b03666bp8e06c6a4a146b81b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906120247y3abb6627we539a6290d682934@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
>
> I've considered this argument of a large working population being the
> reason for this. However this argument doesn't hold up because, if this
> supposition were true, then what would also be true is that the number of
> posts by people in the Indian developer community would be high. I find,
> very often, that this is not the case. Esp in the Ruby community. Nearly
> every Indian dev is somehow Rails connected, if at all, and nearly all of
> them ask poor questions.
>
> Jayanth
>

 I don't think this is an affliction peculiar to Ruby or Rails, but a common

 disease that seems to affect non-curious rookie Indian devs everywhere.
 I have seen a lot of questions, even worse than this, when I used to be
 active in the c.l.py forum about 3-4 years back.

 Posts like this would have been considered okay 9-10 years back when
 Internet penetration was much less, the number of forums not too high
 and Google just starting up. However, I fail to understand a developer
 posting such inane questions at this age, when the Internet is full of
 helpful postings done already by developers who have faced similar
 problems before.

 I typically search obscure error strings when I have some issue on Linux
 associated with my work. It could be a build error of some obscure
 library, a MySQL error or anything - Google has *never* failed to produce
 a result yet. Often I end up getting many hits from forums from people
 who have faced similar issues in the past.

 Anyway, this kind of questions are normally seen with devs who are
 just starting off and doesn't have either the curiosity or the time to
 devote some time to look at the issues, before asking for help.
 Most of the time they can be correct with a gentle nudge in the righ
 direction or tips on how to post in forums.


>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
-Anand
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From jeff at taupro.com  Fri Jun 12 11:47:13 2009
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:47:13 -0500
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A322421.2060101@taupro.com>

Mandar Gokhale wrote:
> Okay, that was really hilarious. But I still believe the issue is not
> confined to Indian developers but *stupid* developers from everywhere.

It definitely is not confined to Indian developers - I see it from
developers in the United States as well.  I'd say it's more from the
vocationally-oriented developers who are trying to solve a problem just
because they have been told to (by employer or school), with no real
desire to enjoy and benefit from the challenge.

-Jeff


From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 12:02:05 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:32:05 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <4A322421.2060101@taupro.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A322421.2060101@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906120302k1158c78el51934b8f961e0e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:

> Mandar Gokhale wrote:
> > Okay, that was really hilarious. But I still believe the issue is not
> > confined to Indian developers but *stupid* developers from everywhere.
>
> It definitely is not confined to Indian developers - I see it from
> developers in the United States as well.  I'd say it's more from the
> vocationally-oriented developers who are trying to solve a problem just
> because they have been told to (by employer or school), with no real
> desire to enjoy and benefit from the challenge.
>


I don't doubt that its a global phenomenon, however, I am still curious
about the reasons for its prevalence out here.
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From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 12:03:05 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:33:05 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <8548c5f30906120247y3abb6627we539a6290d682934@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120230t3b03666bp8e06c6a4a146b81b@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906120247y3abb6627we539a6290d682934@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906120303q6dcf5ff2g605d8f6a60e1f15@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
>  Anyway, this kind of questions are normally seen with devs who are
>  just starting off and doesn't have either the curiosity or the time to
>  devote some time to look at the issues, before asking for help.
>  Most of the time they can be correct with a gentle nudge in the righ
>  direction or tips on how to post in forums.
>


Agreed.

Jayanth
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From kamal.gs at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 13:15:04 2009
From: kamal.gs at gmail.com (Kamal govindraj)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:45:04 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1244800801.3579.bangpypers@python.org>
References: <mailman.11.1244800801.3579.bangpypers@python.org>
Message-ID: <1244805304.6739.30.camel@kamal-laptop>

> I've considered this argument of a large working population being the
> reason
> for this. However this argument doesn't hold up because, if this
> supposition
> were true, then what would also be true is that the number of posts by
> people in the Indian developer community would be high. I find, very
> often,
> that this is not the case. Esp in the Ruby community. Nearly every
> Indian
> dev is somehow Rails connected, if at all, and nearly all of them ask
> poor
> questions.
> 
I have worked with many people who are very reluctant to post to a forum
asking for help.  They will spend a whole day trying to figure out the
issue all by themselves. It became so bad that we had to institute a 30
minutes rule (if you can't solve an issue in 30 minutes - seek help) to
make sure too much time is not wasted on chasing issue which somebody
else might have solved already. I often find myself violating this a lot
of time,  in all these years I have hardly posted half a dozen times,
even that after spending considerable amount of time trying to solve it
myself.  Maybe this partially explains the limited number of posts.

It is also probably another one of those "small town" afflictions -  a
lot of us are too scared to say anything in public that might make us
sound silly/stupid.

One other reason for posts like these is probably the inability to
communicate in English. I have come across people for whom it takes a
lot of effort to write a full sentence in English.
  
I do agree that there are lot of incompetent developers - but I don't
think this is a India specific phenomenon. For one most of the items on
this - http://thedailywtf.com/ are not from India.

I also feel that we need to either ignore such requests (unless the list
gets inundated by those) are politely guide them to ways they can solve
such issues on their own / better ways of asking questions.  Being rude
will not help anybody - it will probably scare away a few more people
who would have posted a better question & found help.
 

Regards,
Kamal


From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 13:35:53 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:05:53 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <1244805304.6739.30.camel@kamal-laptop>
References: <mailman.11.1244800801.3579.bangpypers@python.org>
	<1244805304.6739.30.camel@kamal-laptop>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906120435x37ed03fcg2004d3f896043bc0@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I have worked with many people who are very reluctant to post to a forum
> asking for help.  They will spend a whole day trying to figure out the
> issue all by themselves. It became so bad that we had to institute a 30
> minutes rule (if you can't solve an issue in 30 minutes - seek help) to
> make sure too much time is not wasted on chasing issue which somebody
> else might have solved already. I often find myself violating this a lot
> of time,  in all these years I have hardly posted half a dozen times,
> even that after spending considerable amount of time trying to solve it
> myself.  Maybe this partially explains the limited number of posts.
>

Could be.


>
> It is also probably another one of those "small town" afflictions -  a
> lot of us are too scared to say anything in public that might make us
> sound silly/stupid.
>

Very true. Not just a small town affliction per se. I think its symptomatic
of the education system at large which doesn't encourage active questioning.


> One other reason for posts like these is probably the inability to
> communicate in English. I have come across people for whom it takes a
> lot of effort to write a full sentence in English.
>

Same as above.


>

> I also feel that we need to either ignore such requests (unless the list
> gets inundated by those) are politely guide them to ways they can solve
> such issues on their own / better ways of asking questions.  Being rude
> will not help anybody - it will probably scare away a few more people
> who would have posted a better question & found help.
>
>
Completely agree with you on all points. Excellent post.

Thank you,

Jayanth
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From vid at svaksha.com  Fri Jun 12 13:43:21 2009
From: vid at svaksha.com (vid)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:13:21 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12470af00906120443k25e6d492v70c9607faca9bbac@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:01, Pradeep Gowda<pradeep at btbytes.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Sridhar
> Ratnakumar<sridhar.ratna at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I often think the best way to handle such posters is to momentarily
>> divert the topic of the conversation to their own interest-level,
>> curiosity and self-learning .

... a nicer method :)

>
> I think it's best to ignore mails from users who do not care enough to
> use their real name/nick while asking questions. The user in question
> ?introduced himself as prasad, but we scan mail titles before reading
> mail content. Most people wouldn't care to ?read a mail from
> "testing123 test<swtest123 at gmail.com>", let alone answer it.
[snip]
> by what you say and how you say it. ?It's hard to relate to a
> anonymous, faceless name like "testing 123". ?Use your real name. [1]

hmm.... kindly define "real name"[0], "real identity" with respect to
the online world. If the owner of <swtest123 at gmail.com> had used
"Manmohan Singh" or "Rita Rai" instead of "testing123 test", would you
trust them more ?

[0]  i've been using a nick, for years and dont bother with the whois,
the domain  belongs to someone else :)


> If the same question is asked by some one who "appears" to be a real
> person, it might still be worth answering them, at the same time also
> pointing them to a net etiquette
> link [2]. In good faith, we can assume that the user in question is
> really new to using forums/mailing lists etc.,
[snip]
> [2] http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

The faq may be relevant for the developed nations which have much
better infrastructure and resources than ours. IMPO, i find the faq
rude, presumptuous and insensitive, especially when talking of a
"community" (isnt that what linux, python, ruby, foo, foo-bar, is all
about?) that wants to spread and exchange knowledge.

As for the, "Don't ask people to reply by private
e-mail....Hackers....... public, transparent process..." - try posting
online with a "real name" like "Rita Rai". Besides being an
interesting experience, your perception of humans might change and
hopefully you would rethink about quoting ESR as a reference on
etiquette.

-- 
thanks
vid, who "appears" to be a real person ;)

From pradeep at btbytes.com  Fri Jun 12 14:42:39 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:42:39 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <12470af00906120443k25e6d492v70c9607faca9bbac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<12470af00906120443k25e6d492v70c9607faca9bbac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906120542y55277ee9v8867c8c09247b414@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 7:43 AM, vid<vid at svaksha.com> wrote:
> hmm.... kindly define "real name"[0], "real identity" with respect to
> the online world. If the owner of <swtest123 at gmail.com> had used
> "Manmohan Singh" or "Rita Rai" instead of "testing123 test", would you
> trust them more ?
>
> [0] ?i've been using a nick, for years and dont bother with the whois,
> the domain ?belongs to someone else :)

While a name like "Manmohan Singh Ph.D(oxford econ)" may be treated
with suspicion, I see no problem
with a name like Rita Rai. I do not care for real names, as long as
the nick you use is acts as smart you are in real life.


> The faq may be relevant for the developed nations which have much
> better infrastructure and resources than ours. IMPO, i find the faq
> rude, presumptuous and insensitive, especially when talking of a
> "community" (isnt that what linux, python, ruby, foo, foo-bar, is all
> about?) that wants to spread and exchange knowledge.

The best thing about computers is there are no geographical boundaries.
I cannot and will not wait till somebody gives my country a
certificate saying "you are now a developed nation".
By your own argument, you should start talking with a "developing
nation" slant to show solidarity.
Obviously, you are not. What made you be better than that?  A
privileged education, smart friends, patient mentors,
your own hard work and patience?

My reply to the OP was in good faith, while assuming no incompetence
on the part of the poster in question,
while it was my  first reaction to it too. I have interacted with
enough young Indian developers (just out of college etc)
to understand that for every `n` developers who write "plz help" there
are a `k` who go on to become very good.
While `k<<n`, I care enough to reduce the gap by sharing what I know.

I'm exchanging knowledge by contributing my take on the issue, while also
quoting well known references on what I say, which is how knowledge is
transferred.
You say your piece and back it up by the best references you can find. That is
the accepted way of academia, industry and arts.

You may not agree with the reference I  quote, but that's your prerogative.
You are free to do your own research on the topic and share your findings.

By your own admission, you are trying to be borderline anonymous.
I recommend you to read the 1st reference on using real names, if you haven't.
May be you wouldn't have replied the way you have if you had to put
your real name behind it.

Cheers,
+PG

From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 14:57:16 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:27:16 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906120542y55277ee9v8867c8c09247b414@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<12470af00906120443k25e6d492v70c9607faca9bbac@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906120542y55277ee9v8867c8c09247b414@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906120557j249584cembe61c451d97b8d4d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Pradeep Gowda <pradeep at btbytes.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 7:43 AM, vid<vid at svaksha.com> wrote:
> > hmm.... kindly define "real name"[0], "real identity" with respect to
> > the online world. If the owner of <swtest123 at gmail.com> had used
> > "Manmohan Singh" or "Rita Rai" instead of "testing123 test", would you
> > trust them more ?
> >
> > [0]  i've been using a nick, for years and dont bother with the whois,
> > the domain  belongs to someone else :)
>
> While a name like "Manmohan Singh Ph.D(oxford econ)" may be treated
> with suspicion, I see no problem
> with a name like Rita Rai. I do not care for real names, as long as
> the nick you use is acts as smart you are in real life.
>

What's in a name? Everything? Nothing? Irrelevant?


>
>
> > The faq may be relevant for the developed nations which have much
> > better infrastructure and resources than ours. IMPO, i find the faq
> > rude, presumptuous and insensitive, especially when talking of a
> > "community" (isnt that what linux, python, ruby, foo, foo-bar, is all
> > about?) that wants to spread and exchange knowledge.
>
> The best thing about computers is there are no geographical boundaries.
> I cannot and will not wait till somebody gives my country a
> certificate saying "you are now a developed nation".


Actually, I disagree. You might be right if you are trying to imply that
there might be no *implied* regionalism in this context. However, several
things, as in life, assume the properties of the person/place where it comes
from, and several standards often indicate that.

I do agree with you on the fact that when one posts on a forum not limited
by geographic boundaries, one ought to try and adhere to certain basic
principles that govern that forum.


>
> By your own argument, you should start talking with a "developing
> nation" slant to show solidarity.
> Obviously, you are not. What made you be better than that?  A
> privileged education, smart friends, patient mentors,
> your own hard work and patience?
>

Right. All are factors no doubt. Which is why we are having this discussion
I suppose :D


>
> My reply to the OP was in good faith, while assuming no incompetence
> on the part of the poster in question,
> while it was my  first reaction to it too. I have interacted with
> enough young Indian developers (just out of college etc)
> to understand that for every `n` developers who write "plz help" there
> are a `k` who go on to become very good.
> While `k<<n`, I care enough to reduce the gap by sharing what I know.
>

Correct and good on both counts.

You say your piece and back it up by the best references you can find. That
> is
> the accepted way of academia, industry and arts.
>

Actually, with the arts, that mightn't be always true ;)


>
> You may not agree with the reference I  quote, but that's your prerogative.
> You are free to do your own research on the topic and share your findings.
>
> By your own admission, you are trying to be borderline anonymous.
> I recommend you to read the 1st reference on using real names, if you
> haven't.
> May be you wouldn't have replied the way you have if you had to put
> your real name behind it.


Names are irrelevant on the internet, so I agree with both of you in a
certain way.

Jayanth
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From abpillai at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 15:02:32 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:32:32 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906120557j249584cembe61c451d97b8d4d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<12470af00906120443k25e6d492v70c9607faca9bbac@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906120542y55277ee9v8867c8c09247b414@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120557j249584cembe61c451d97b8d4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906120602m14fdff57xdf033082d3a893@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Srijayanth Sridhar <srijayanth at gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Pradeep Gowda <pradeep at btbytes.com>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 7:43 AM, vid<vid at svaksha.com> wrote:
>> >
>>
>
      Great discussion... the next time someone posts a "non-curious"
question
in this list, let us be wise like Solomon and point him to this thread as
education :)


>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
-Anand
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From abpillai at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 15:05:01 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:35:01 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] BangPypers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <882494550906112325t2e6300b8gea5edeea98a4b36a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1244714402.4069.bangpypers@python.org>
	<882494550906112325t2e6300b8gea5edeea98a4b36a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906120605r1d73b88ctdfb78420dfb424c5@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Aman Aggarwal <aman.coe at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:30 PM, <bangpypers-request at python.org> wrote:
> >


 <snipped oceans of text from here>...

>
>
> I posted the same question here :
>
>
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/974931/multiply-operator-applied-to-listdata-structure
>
>
>
> Kindly read it.
>
> Thanks and kind regards
> Aman
>


 Your post almost caused a "Scrolloverflow" in my browser email window...
 It is a good idea to avoid quoting entire digests in your replies.


> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
-Anand
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From pradeep at btbytes.com  Fri Jun 12 15:36:45 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:36:45 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906120557j249584cembe61c451d97b8d4d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<12470af00906120443k25e6d492v70c9607faca9bbac@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906120542y55277ee9v8867c8c09247b414@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120557j249584cembe61c451d97b8d4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906120636tb2a4d9ata813555a1c6b7bd@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Srijayanth Sridhar<srijayanth at gmail.com> wrote:
> Names are irrelevant on the internet, so I agree with both of you in a
> certain way.

Well, there is one way to be relevant   in programming circles,
which is often condensed to -- "show your code or GTFO".

Ruby language recently lost a prodigal programmer. See _why's euology here [1]
The programmer Guy Decoux was mostly  known by his famous shell prompt
pigeon% and
`ts`, the prefix he used for his functions.

His code was his communication. Of course, this is an ideal worth striving to :)

Names do not matter, however identities still do.
In the absence of an established identity, people will be weary about you.
Your real name or an already established nick elsewhere  is a good start.

> You say your piece and back it up by the best references you can find. That is
> the accepted way of academia, industry and arts.
Good call. I thought so too about it on my way to work.
I will stick to what I know. Art, not much :)

[1] http://hackety.org/2008/09/25/legendNeverToBeSolved.html

From pradeep at btbytes.com  Fri Jun 12 15:40:55 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:40:55 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906120636tb2a4d9ata813555a1c6b7bd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<12470af00906120443k25e6d492v70c9607faca9bbac@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906120542y55277ee9v8867c8c09247b414@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120557j249584cembe61c451d97b8d4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906120636tb2a4d9ata813555a1c6b7bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906120640q667e0feamfa4a046a8bb8b9ea@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Pradeep Gowda<pradeep at btbytes.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Srijayanth Sridhar<srijayanth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Names are irrelevant on the internet, so I agree with both of you in a
>> certain way.
>
> Well, there is one way to be relevant ? in programming circles,
> which is often condensed to -- "show your code or GTFO".
>
> Ruby language recently lost a prodigal programmer. See _why's euology here [1]
> The programmer Guy Decoux was mostly ?known by his famous shell prompt
> pigeon% and
> `ts`, the prefix he used for his functions.
>
> His code was his communication. Of course, this is an ideal worth striving to :)
>
> Names do not matter, however identities still do.
> In the absence of an established identity, people will be weary about you.
> Your real name or an already established nick elsewhere ?is a good start.
>
>> You say your piece and back it up by the best references you can find. That is
>> the accepted way of academia, industry and arts.
> Good call. I thought so too about it on my way to work.
> I will stick to what I know. Art, not much :)
>
> [1] http://hackety.org/2008/09/25/legendNeverToBeSolved.html
>

Please read the first line as "please read _why's euology of Guy Decoux [1]" .
The original sentence might parse differently than I thought initially.

+PG

From pradeep at btbytes.com  Fri Jun 12 15:44:36 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:44:36 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906120644w3ebf7f99rb3c75f8af83e41a0@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 2:20 AM, Sridhar
Ratnakumar<sridhar.ratna at gmail.com> wrote:
> Now do you think a person who is lazy to type a few characters in an
> Internet search engine (as evidenced by "Is there any tutorial. Should
> we include any library?") would be interested at all in reading a
> 60,000 words document?

One never knows :)

I learnt about this doc while being a passive participant on
linux-bangalore list years ago.
While I had read some other works of ESR, the repeated references to
this doc on LB
prompted me to read it.

+PG

From noufal at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 15:56:32 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:26:32 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <1244805304.6739.30.camel@kamal-laptop>
References: <mailman.11.1244800801.3579.bangpypers@python.org>
	<1244805304.6739.30.camel@kamal-laptop>
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906120656j44560425j24241ac2418d5034@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Kamal govindraj<kamal.gs at gmail.com> wrote:
[..]
> I also feel that we need to either ignore such requests (unless the list
> gets inundated by those) are politely guide them to ways they can solve
> such issues on their own / better ways of asking questions. ?Being rude
> will not help anybody - it will probably scare away a few more people
> who would have posted a better question & found help.

While I don't think I've posted anything in SMSese on a newsgroup
ever, I do have some old mails that I'm not particularly proud if. If
I were shooed off back then, I think it would have been quite a slap
in the face.

-- 
~noufal

From vid at svaksha.com  Fri Jun 12 16:22:40 2009
From: vid at svaksha.com (vid)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:52:40 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906120542y55277ee9v8867c8c09247b414@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<12470af00906120443k25e6d492v70c9607faca9bbac@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906120542y55277ee9v8867c8c09247b414@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12470af00906120722w44a43469nc1a95904e3009b08@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 18:12, Pradeep Gowda<pradeep at btbytes.com> wrote:
>
> While a name like "Manmohan Singh Ph.D(oxford econ)" may be treated
> with suspicion, I see no problem
> with a name like Rita Rai. I do not care for real names, as long as
> the nick you use is acts as smart you are in real life.

ah, now you are contradicting your earlier statement : "I think it's
best to ignore mails from users who do not care enough to use their
real name/nick while asking questions." [/unquote]

As for knowing if someone is smart in real life, the 'RFC 1855 in a
Nutshell' says it better : Ideas can be foolish; people are not fools
simply for expressing a foolish idea. At this point, i wonder how the
internet, geographical disconnect will even give us a glimpse of the
real life of an OP, and why does it even matter !!


> The best thing about computers is there are no geographical boundaries.
> I cannot and will not wait till somebody gives my country a
> certificate saying "you are now a developed nation".

Since you missed my point, here is what i meant by "infrastructure
resources" - better education system, better internet connectivity, a
city/village with a better power grid that does not shut down for the
better part of the day/night, etc..... IIRC, even Bangalore , the
silicon valley of India,  has regular power cuts and it must be worse
in a small city or the village(s).  Echoing Kamal's thoughts on the
newbie aspect, lack of language/social skills, etc, i'd add that good
infrastructure does  matter in the smaller scheme of things atleast
with respect to the amount of time a person gets to spend online to
research these things. Ofcourse, the above is no excuse for 'do my
homework now' demands.


> By your own argument, you should start talking with a "developing
> nation" slant to show solidarity.
> Obviously, you are not. What made you be better than that? ?A
> privileged education, smart friends, patient mentors,
> your own hard work and patience?

err... i am not sure what is the point you are trying to make here.
care to explain?

> My reply to the OP was in good faith, while assuming no incompetence
> on the part of the poster in question,
> while it was my ?first reaction to it too. I have interacted with
> enough young Indian developers (just out of college etc)
> to understand that for every `n` developers who write "plz help" there
> are a `k` who go on to become very good.
> While `k<<n`, I care enough to reduce the gap by sharing what I know.

agree.


[....]
> You may not agree with the reference I ?quote, but that's your prerogative.

Absolutely. I've never found RTFM polite and was thinking out loud on
why that FAQ is not my choice for introducing someone to online
netiquette. If 'basic questions' were so annoying i'd rather spend my
time elsewhere than subscribe to a *-user or *-help list and shoo away
newbies with snark.


> By your own admission, you are trying to be borderline anonymous.
> I recommend you to read the 1st reference on using real names, if you haven't.
> May be you wouldn't have replied the way you have if you had to put
> your real name behind it.

.... since you contradict yourself twice (in this mail and the earlier
one) and jump to conclusions (about me :)), i'll pass. Nothing
personal.

-- 
thanks
|| vid || http://www.svaksha.com ||

From anandology at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 17:42:43 2009
From: anandology at gmail.com (Anand Chitipothu)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:42:43 -0700
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com> 
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com> 
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com> 
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41139fcb0906120842qa9c1114lf22b5e0be17e18ee@mail.gmail.com>

2009/6/12 Srijayanth Sridhar <srijayanth at gmail.com>:
> As we speak:
>
> http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/339092
>
> Jayanth

Don't blame the poor chap here. Blame microsoft for that cryptic error message.

"'nmake' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
operable program or batch file."

Does it mean 'nmake' is there and recognized as something else like a
text file? How can a newbie understand that nmake is not installed.

I have seen so many people not staring at the error messages just
because they think they can't make a sense of the error messages.
Which is true to some extent.

I remember some case like this in when I was doing my engineering.
After installing linux and using it for some days, it used to get boot
error "fsck: check forced". I didn't know what "check forced" means
and that was like a road block for me and all I could do was reinstall
linux from scratch again. I didn't had access to internet then,
otherwise I could have asked similar foolish(?) questions.

I think we should be kind for people asking such questions and show
them the right way instead of flaming.

Anand

From srijayanth at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 20:09:28 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:39:28 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <41139fcb0906120842qa9c1114lf22b5e0be17e18ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<41139fcb0906120842qa9c1114lf22b5e0be17e18ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906121109j792fde55t3888e879decd56eb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Anand Chitipothu <anandology at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2009/6/12 Srijayanth Sridhar <srijayanth at gmail.com>:
> > As we speak:
> >
> > http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/339092
> >
> > Jayanth
>
> Don't blame the poor chap here. Blame microsoft for that cryptic error
> message.
>
> "'nmake' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
> operable program or batch file."
>
> Does it mean 'nmake' is there and recognized as something else like a
> text file? How can a newbie understand that nmake is not installed.
>
> I have seen so many people not staring at the error messages just
> because they think they can't make a sense of the error messages.
> Which is true to some extent.
>
> I remember some case like this in when I was doing my engineering.
> After installing linux and using it for some days, it used to get boot
> error "fsck: check forced". I didn't know what "check forced" means
> and that was like a road block for me and all I could do was reinstall
> linux from scratch again. I didn't had access to internet then,
> otherwise I could have asked similar foolish(?) questions.
>
> I think we should be kind for people asking such questions and show
> them the right way instead of flaming.
>


Boy have I opened a pandora's box or what?!

Great thread so far.

What you say is true, perhaps I should be kinder to him. However, I am not
sure what I can tell him at the moment. I've no clue what exactly is up with
his nmake :D

 Jayanth
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From lawgon at au-kbc.org  Sat Jun 13 02:38:26 2009
From: lawgon at au-kbc.org (Kenneth Gonsalves)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 06:08:26 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200906130608.26833.lawgon@au-kbc.org>

On Friday 12 June 2009 14:30:57 Srijayanth Sridhar wrote:
> What are your experiences as a person from a "small town"? My question is
> more directed towards your 'programming culture' now vis-a-vis to your
> programming culture from your small town?

I am both 'from' and mostly 'in' a small town. My experience is that one has 
to be totally self reliant and solely dependent on the internet. For example, 
I started programming python circa 2002, but the first time I met and discussed 
with a real live python developer was in late 2006. I _did_ see Pradeep G and 
swaroop in a conference in 2004, but was too scared to talk to them ;-) Till 
date I have _never_ asked anyone F2F about any problem in programming - there 
is no one available. The same goes for sysadmin and practically every other 
computer related task. Strangely enough, the same goes for golfers in small 
towns - I have yet to get even a tip from a coach. That is also why I prefer 
to recruit from small towns and non-elite colleges. The people are more self-
reliant and not so cynical.
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

From lawgon at au-kbc.org  Sat Jun 13 02:40:35 2009
From: lawgon at au-kbc.org (Kenneth Gonsalves)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 06:10:35 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906120644w3ebf7f99rb3c75f8af83e41a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<7c73a13a0906112320i41d5105am3c485e360cb41fea@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906120644w3ebf7f99rb3c75f8af83e41a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200906130610.35973.lawgon@au-kbc.org>

On Friday 12 June 2009 19:14:36 Pradeep Gowda wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 2:20 AM, Sridhar
>
> Ratnakumar<sridhar.ratna at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Now do you think a person who is lazy to type a few characters in an
> > Internet search engine (as evidenced by "Is there any tutorial. Should
> > we include any library?") would be interested at all in reading a
> > 60,000 words document?
>
> One never knows :)
>
> I learnt about this doc while being a passive participant on
> linux-bangalore list years ago.
> While I had read some other works of ESR, the repeated references to
> this doc on LB
> prompted me to read it.

strangely enough, I switched to python after reading an article by ESR on the 
language. And for a long time - 1995 to 2005, I thought ESR was a good guy ;-)
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

From pradeep at btbytes.com  Sat Jun 13 03:07:00 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:07:00 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <200906130608.26833.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906130608.26833.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906121807g32835d8fi64224835f13b44f2@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves<lawgon at au-kbc.org> wrote:
> On Friday 12 June 2009 14:30:57 Srijayanth Sridhar wrote:
>> What are your experiences as a person from a "small town"? My question is
>> more directed towards your 'programming culture' now vis-a-vis to your
>> programming culture from your small town?
>
> I am both 'from' and mostly 'in' a small town. My experience is that one has
> to be totally self reliant and solely dependent on the internet. For example,
> I started programming python circa 2002, but the first time I met and discussed
> with a real live python developer was in late 2006. I _did_ see Pradeep G and
> swaroop in a conference in 2004, but was too scared to talk to them ;-) Till
> date I have _never_ asked anyone F2F about any problem in programming - there
> is no one available. The same goes for sysadmin and practically every other
> computer related task. Strangely enough, the same goes for golfers in small
> towns - I have yet to get even a tip from a coach. That is also why I prefer
> to recruit from small towns and non-elite colleges. The people are more self-
> reliant and not so cynical.

Kenneth,

I remember that LB 2004 moment. You were sitting in the first row and
me & Swaroop were sitting
right behind you and gabbing away about some python stuff. You turned
and started talking to us
(something about plone /zope, I think). The "scared" feeling was mutual :D

About asking people F2F about programming/linux, my own first
experience bears repeating.

This happened during  the very first Bangalore-IT.com which had the
Linux pavilion (1997/98?).  I
I had recently discovered linux and having a hard time getting SiS
graphics card working on my PC.

So, during one of the conf. days I boldly walked (after talking myself
into it for couple of minutes)
to this well known Linux person and asked him "how do I get this SiS
card working?".
What my "scared-but-practicing-to-be-bold" self failed to notice is
that he was talking to some one else already.

He laughed and said, "you should stop using that card then".

Yeah, very "cold-water-in-the-face" moment there. I have survived.

+PG

From lawgon at au-kbc.org  Sat Jun 13 04:00:14 2009
From: lawgon at au-kbc.org (Kenneth Gonsalves)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:30:14 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <c3fb38580906120135m3aef15efmf5af6df6064c479d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120135m3aef15efmf5af6df6064c479d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200906130730.14568.lawgon@au-kbc.org>

On Friday 12 June 2009 14:05:18 Mandar Gokhale wrote:
> Jayanth: I've come to lament the factory like nature of IT in India. People
> learn extremely minimal subset of specialized skills. I've had chaps who
> can't see beyond .NET or Java very simply because these are industry
> idioms. I tell them stuff about perl, python or ruby and I get back "but
> those are scripting languages".
>
>
> Just a slightly unrelated question here.......doesn't the industry follow
> .NET and Java more than Python/Perl as well? (I've heard this said by
> several people in the States as well.) So maybe a change in the industry
> mindset would help..

there is a pecking order - generally Java programmers are at the top of the 
heap. They usually would not even condescend to _talk_ to a non-java 
programmer. If you cannot write 5000 lines of UML to generate 10000 lines of 
XML to generate 50000 lines of java code, you are no one. 

the next in the food chain are DOTNET guys - ability to click, drag and drop 
is essential. Ability to think is optional (at times actionable).

and at the bottom of the food chain are the scripting guys - also useful to 
send round the corner for coffee.

but the moment these guys leave industry - guess what language they choose?

and why do the corporates not change? Take TCS, they have 50K java programmers 
- they can't afford to retrain them. So it is not a question of Java is best 
for enterprise (we all know python is the best), but a question of enterprise 
has invested too much in java programmers and cannot afford to shift from java 
(or dotnet as the case may be)

-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

From jace at pobox.com  Sat Jun 13 12:37:42 2009
From: jace at pobox.com (Kiran Jonnalagadda)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:07:42 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906120302k1158c78el51934b8f961e0e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A322421.2060101@taupro.com>
	<5ead360a0906120302k1158c78el51934b8f961e0e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c1b501120906130337k44513e62t59b581bc10083b7d@mail.gmail.com>

2009/6/12 Srijayanth Sridhar <srijayanth at gmail.com>:
> I don't doubt that its a global phenomenon, however, I am still curious
> about the reasons for its prevalence out here.

I will add my little theory to this discussion.

If you are from a middle class background with no appetite for
entrepreneurial risk, but want a better life than your parents did, there
are few professional career options.

Doctor? Architect? Lawyer? They require dedicating a serious chunk of your
life and are one-way streets. But programmer... excuse me, software
developer? By gosh, a big company will make a software developer out of
anyone in just three months, plus you get to go abroad and settle down. If
it doesn't work, no big deal. You didn't invest five years and half your
parents' savings to realise that.

Ergo, we get a lot of people trying out to be programmers but not entirely
sure this is what they want, and bringing in that one key habit that got
them through life: when you need to know something, ask someone.

You have a leak in your bathroom and need a plumber? Ask someone if they
know a good plumber! Whoever heard of the yellow pages?

And the same thing online. Need help? Ask someone! They say there are these
things called mailing lists where knowledgeable people hang out? Go there
and ask someone!

Does this mean they are mindless? No. It means they simply haven't had the
incentive to understand how this stuff works. They are not trying to be good
programmers. They're trying to have good careers with respect to the visible
hierarchy around them.

Someone actually had the same problem and the answer is recorded in web
pages, which one can discover by typing key phrases into a search engine?
Gee, what a novel concept! Whoever knew search engines could be used for
anything more than popular keywords?


-- 
Kiran Jonnalagadda
http://jace.zaiki.in/
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From scorpion032 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 13 13:21:31 2009
From: scorpion032 at gmail.com (Lakshman Prasad)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:51:31 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <c1b501120906130337k44513e62t59b581bc10083b7d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A322421.2060101@taupro.com>
	<5ead360a0906120302k1158c78el51934b8f961e0e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<c1b501120906130337k44513e62t59b581bc10083b7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d38edb550906130421g660629bcv5f310981ebf3d993@mail.gmail.com>

This is not the first time someone has questioned, why it is Indians most
often caught asking questions without a little basic research.

There has been an interesting discussion on this topic on reddit recently.
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7wnha/more_hword_confusion_a_blog_post_about_clever/c07m4ci
Incidentally the tone expressed in this email is exactly same as the
discussion there!



On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Kiran Jonnalagadda <jace at pobox.com> wrote:

> 2009/6/12 Srijayanth Sridhar <srijayanth at gmail.com>:
> > I don't doubt that its a global phenomenon, however, I am still curious
> > about the reasons for its prevalence out here.
>
> I will add my little theory to this discussion.
>
> If you are from a middle class background with no appetite for
> entrepreneurial risk, but want a better life than your parents did, there
> are few professional career options.
>
> Doctor? Architect? Lawyer? They require dedicating a serious chunk of your
> life and are one-way streets. But programmer... excuse me, software
> developer? By gosh, a big company will make a software developer out of
> anyone in just three months, plus you get to go abroad and settle down. If
> it doesn't work, no big deal. You didn't invest five years and half your
> parents' savings to realise that.
>
> Ergo, we get a lot of people trying out to be programmers but not entirely
> sure this is what they want, and bringing in that one key habit that got
> them through life: when you need to know something, ask someone.
>
> You have a leak in your bathroom and need a plumber? Ask someone if they
> know a good plumber! Whoever heard of the yellow pages?
>
> And the same thing online. Need help? Ask someone! They say there are these
> things called mailing lists where knowledgeable people hang out? Go there
> and ask someone!
>
> Does this mean they are mindless? No. It means they simply haven't had the
> incentive to understand how this stuff works. They are not trying to be good
> programmers. They're trying to have good careers with respect to the visible
> hierarchy around them.
>
> Someone actually had the same problem and the answer is recorded in web
> pages, which one can discover by typing key phrases into a search engine?
> Gee, what a novel concept! Whoever knew search engines could be used for
> anything more than popular keywords?
>
>
> --
> Kiran Jonnalagadda
> http://jace.zaiki.in/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
Regards,
Lakshman
becomingguru.com
lakshmanprasad.com
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From scorpion032 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 13 13:30:29 2009
From: scorpion032 at gmail.com (Lakshman Prasad)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:00:29 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <200906130730.14568.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906112351x7f24cecfg441c5003ec5013bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120135m3aef15efmf5af6df6064c479d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906130730.14568.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
Message-ID: <d38edb550906130430x5cf553c4sa0b1eb3b5c9a6e87@mail.gmail.com>

> Take TCS, they have 50K java programmers- they can't afford to retrain
them.
It is not so much the effort involved to retrain
in a particular programming language as it is to change the prevelant
culture. I am curious to see how they change and adapt,
as I am skeptical that the cost difference advantage will sustain them for a
much longer time.

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon at au-kbc.org>wrote:

> On Friday 12 June 2009 14:05:18 Mandar Gokhale wrote:
> > Jayanth: I've come to lament the factory like nature of IT in India.
> People
> > learn extremely minimal subset of specialized skills. I've had chaps who
> > can't see beyond .NET or Java very simply because these are industry
> > idioms. I tell them stuff about perl, python or ruby and I get back "but
> > those are scripting languages".
> >
> >
> > Just a slightly unrelated question here.......doesn't the industry follow
> > .NET and Java more than Python/Perl as well? (I've heard this said by
> > several people in the States as well.) So maybe a change in the industry
> > mindset would help..
>
> there is a pecking order - generally Java programmers are at the top of the
> heap. They usually would not even condescend to _talk_ to a non-java
> programmer. If you cannot write 5000 lines of UML to generate 10000 lines
> of
> XML to generate 50000 lines of java code, you are no one.
>
> the next in the food chain are DOTNET guys - ability to click, drag and
> drop
> is essential. Ability to think is optional (at times actionable).
>
> and at the bottom of the food chain are the scripting guys - also useful to
> send round the corner for coffee.
>
> but the moment these guys leave industry - guess what language they choose?
>
> and why do the corporates not change? Take TCS, they have 50K java
> programmers
> - they can't afford to retrain them. So it is not a question of Java is
> best
> for enterprise (we all know python is the best), but a question of
> enterprise
> has invested too much in java programmers and cannot afford to shift from
> java
> (or dotnet as the case may be)
>
> --
> regards
> Kenneth Gonsalves
> Associate
> NRC-FOSS
> http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
Regards,
Lakshman
becomingguru.com
lakshmanprasad.com
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From rmathews at gmail.com  Sun Jun 14 05:24:30 2009
From: rmathews at gmail.com (Roshan Mathews)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 08:54:30 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <c1b501120906130337k44513e62t59b581bc10083b7d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A322421.2060101@taupro.com>
	<5ead360a0906120302k1158c78el51934b8f961e0e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<c1b501120906130337k44513e62t59b581bc10083b7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1c4dc2780906132024g2647c765ocb595254c01cb9f5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Kiran Jonnalagadda<jace at pobox.com> wrote:
> I will add my little theory to this discussion.
>
Hahahaha .... :D

Nice writeup.

From sriramnrn at gmail.com  Sun Jun 14 07:14:57 2009
From: sriramnrn at gmail.com (Sriram Narayanan)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:44:57 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <c1b501120906130337k44513e62t59b581bc10083b7d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<49977f270906112343i3645db81n3d57fff5b2836e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1c4dc2780906120129m561b80ebk536a3e90271dd651@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906121409.52556.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<5ead360a0906120200t2dc81ec7jcf69a117ce1b9914@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120212p30d8fe73q8e04e646b6f704a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<c3fb38580906120222y26d0fa8if09e2ab506983f20@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A322421.2060101@taupro.com>
	<5ead360a0906120302k1158c78el51934b8f961e0e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<c1b501120906130337k44513e62t59b581bc10083b7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49977f270906132214r1b711e44t4491cadd3430122a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Kiran Jonnalagadda<jace at pobox.com> wrote:
> 2009/6/12 Srijayanth Sridhar <srijayanth at gmail.com>:
>> I don't doubt that its a global phenomenon, however, I am still curious
>> about the reasons for its prevalence out here.
>
> I will add my little theory to this discussion.
>
> If you are from a middle class background with no appetite for
> entrepreneurial risk, but want a better life than your parents did, there
> are few professional career options.
>
> Doctor? Architect? Lawyer? They require dedicating a serious chunk of your
> life and are one-way streets. But programmer... excuse me, software
> developer? By gosh, a big company will make a software developer out of
> anyone in just three months, plus you get to go abroad and settle down. If
> it doesn't work, no big deal. You didn't invest five years and half your
> parents' savings to realise that.

+1 to your theory.

Around 1997, I used to work as a lab assistant at Aptech (A computer
education chain.) in Mumbai. I've seen parents visit the Aptech centre
with their supposedly good for nothing sons, learn about the course
options, get swayed by the glorious future that the "career
counsellors" promise them, and then say to their sons, "Since you
don't seem to be good at anything else, at least do a computer
course".

-- Sriram

From lawgon at au-kbc.org  Sun Jun 14 07:45:41 2009
From: lawgon at au-kbc.org (Kenneth Gonsalves)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:15:41 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <c1b501120906130337k44513e62t59b581bc10083b7d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120302k1158c78el51934b8f961e0e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<c1b501120906130337k44513e62t59b581bc10083b7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200906141115.42055.lawgon@au-kbc.org>

On Saturday 13 June 2009 16:07:42 Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote:
> Doctor? Architect? Lawyer? They require dedicating a serious chunk of your
> life and are one-way streets.

not so. I am just back from interviewing over a hundred would-be programmers 
whose parents have dedicated a serious chunk of their cash to put them through 
and engineering degree. And now they are jobless and unemployable. It is also 
not true that Doctor? Architect? Lawyer? are one-way streets. I know an 
architect who is now an IT professional, and a lawyer who is on his way there. 
And several doctors who have done serious programming.

If you really analyse things you will find that the people who embarrass us are 
almost invariably engineering or MCA graduates from the formal stream. The 
people from the informal stream - like aptech/NIIT graduates very rarely stray 
away from the tools they are taught.

I find, in India anyway, the best programmers seem to be people who have _not_ 
formally studied programming. Even from engineering the EEE and ECE guys seem 
far more likely to go the self-learning path that we are looking at.

Again there is a clear distinction between people who are taught and people 
who learn. Most of those who are taught expect to be taught their whole lives 
- and those who learn ...
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

From abpillai at gmail.com  Sun Jun 14 08:00:49 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:30:49 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <200906141115.42055.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906120302k1158c78el51934b8f961e0e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<c1b501120906130337k44513e62t59b581bc10083b7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906141115.42055.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906132300h23d99464m9b380c5889273731@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon at au-kbc.org>wrote:

> On Saturday 13 June 2009 16:07:42 Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote:
> > Doctor? Architect? Lawyer? They require dedicating a serious chunk of
> your
> > life and are one-way streets.
>
> not so. I am just back from interviewing over a hundred would-be
> programmers
> whose parents have dedicated a serious chunk of their cash to put them
> through
> and engineering degree. And now they are jobless and unemployable. It is
> also
> not true that Doctor? Architect? Lawyer? are one-way streets. I know an
> architect who is now an IT professional, and a lawyer who is on his way
> there.
> And several doctors who have done serious programming.
>
> If you really analyse things you will find that the people who embarrass us
> are
> almost invariably engineering or MCA graduates from the formal stream. The
> people from the informal stream - like aptech/NIIT graduates very rarely
> stray
> away from the tools they are taught.
>
> I find, in India anyway, the best programmers seem to be people who have
> _not_
> formally studied programming. Even from engineering the EEE and ECE guys
> seem
> far more likely to go the self-learning path that we are looking at.
>
> Again there is a clear distinction between people who are taught and people
> who learn. Most of those who are taught expect to be taught their whole
> lives
> - and those who learn ...


 I am a Mech. Engineer by degree but a self-taught developer/software
engineer
 (I won't call myself just a "programmer", to me it is someone who writes
code
  when given specs, I am more than that).

 I taught myself C while in 3rd sem at college. I got my first job through
campus
 and since then I have been through 6-7 jobs, jumping from one to next when
 there was no "fun" in the project any more. I taught myself C++ in my 2nd
year
 at work, Java in my 4th year and Python about the same time, after a
fruitless
 wrestling with Perl where I was retired hurt.

 I have never sat on a Python course, but has conducted a couple of Python
 trainings abroad in universities to CS professors with more than 15-20 yrs
of
 experience.

  I am still a student of CS languages, trying out everything from Ruby,
groovy,
  erlang to D. I think there is still fire within me to learn and master a
couple of
  languages more though time is a problem right now...

  I completely agree with Kenneth.  Those who teach themselves things,
continue
  to learn, those who are taught always expect to be taught and stop
learning
  quickly. But then it is another fact that the former continue to be
successful
  engineers and the latter become managers, who go on to prove Peter's
  principle true in their careers.


> --
> regards
> Kenneth Gonsalves
> Associate
> NRC-FOSS
> http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
-Anand
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From srijayanth at gmail.com  Mon Jun 15 09:05:23 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:35:23 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906150005s2b694f02g1ca4179a7cc167bd@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Are there any good python training programs in Bangalore? Can anybody point
me in the right direction? This isn't for me, its for colleagues who might
need to learn Python for an upcoming project.

Thank you,

Jayanth
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From jeff at taupro.com  Mon Jun 15 10:15:53 2009
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:15:53 -0500
Subject: [BangPypers] How to create Debug and Release code in Python
In-Reply-To: <a13a3b480906071237x1f42cdc4pc7235deed1d3ec91@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a13a3b480906071237x1f42cdc4pc7235deed1d3ec91@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A360339.5060809@taupro.com>

Vishal wrote:
> 
> *Is there a way to create a conditionally compilable Python script
> ?* Some facility that would prevent from code getting compiled into
> ".pyc"....something like the old #ifdef #endif preprocessor
> directives....is there a Python preprocessory available :)

The way to create conditionally compiled Python is to use Python. ;-)
You can place if-then statements in places you might not expect if you
are coming from something like C/C++.

if PRODUCTION:
    def function():
        pass
else:
    def function():
        pass

The if-then is executed only once at the time the module is imported,
minimizing the overhead cost.  If you place the if-then -inside- a
function, then of course you pay the price each time the function is
called, which you expressed a wish to avoid.

You can use this also with class methods:

class SomeClass:

    if PRODUCTION:
        def __init__(self):
            pass
    else:
        def __init__(self):
            pass

This case is also only performed at module import time, not each time
the class is used.

For some kinds of changes it can be useful to apply decorators
conditionally, either method decorators:

class SomeClass:
    def methodA(self):
        pass
    def methodB(self):
        pass
    if not PRODUCTION:
        methodA = DebuggingWrapper(methodA)
        methodB = DebuggingWrapper(methodB)

Or class decorators:

class SomeClass:
    def methodA(self):
        pass
    def methodB(self):
        pass
if not PRODUCTION:
    SomeClass = DebuggingWrapper(SomeClass)

An example of a wrapper for a class could be:

import inspect
def memoize_get_methods(klass):
    for _, method in inspect.getmembers(klass, inspect.ismethod):
        if method.__name__.startswith('get'):
            setattr(klass, method.__name__, memoized_method(method))

Such a wrapper could manipulate or register selected methods, functions
or attributes, one time at import time.  An example of this is a
memoizer, where if you call a method with the same arguments it
remembers what it returned last time and just returns that instead of
re-calculating the result each time.

def memoized_method(method):
    def wrapped(self, *args, **kw):
        key = tuple(args) + tuple(kw)
        try:
            return method.cache[key]
        except KeyError:
            result = method(self, *args, **kw)
            method.cache[key] = result
            return result
    method.im_func.cache = {}
    return wrapped

These are just some ideas of what is possible since I'm not familiar
with what kind of changes your developers experiment with, whether
high-level (which these approaches are good for) or low-level (where
#ifdef works better).

I gave a talk at PyCon 2009 about namespaces and code blocks that use
diagrams to illustrate the difference in Python between import time and
run time.  You can find the video, slides and tools used at:

    http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/7/

> if thats doable I can ask them to make all experimental modifications
> within the conditional directives. I could still ask them to do that
> using simple if's and bool parameters, however, putting too many ifs
> might degrade the performance of these scripts. ("the lesser the
> branches the better it is for processor performance...more so for super
> scalar processors")

The "less branches the better" concept is not really relevant for an
interpreted language like Python.  The interpreter is doing a lot of
subroutine calling and branching for you as it executes each bytecode in
software.  Less branching is only relevant when the code is executed in
hardware.

You will have a performance overhead in Python if your if-then clauses
are sprinkled through the bodies of functions/methods, just because they
are executed each time control passes through that point.  It is best
though from a maintainability viewpoint not to do that.  There are many
books about programming, some of the C/C++ programming philosophy books,
that talk about how adding such small debug-specific logic pieces make
it hard to remove them later without introducing bugs.


> We cannot use the, often unknown, __debug__ flag, because our users
> would like to simply double-click on a python file, which means to use
> the -O or -OO options (which sets __debug__ to False) we'd have to make
> windows python command line have these, and then double clicking would
> be of no use if you want the run stuff inside the __debug__.

I'm confused - the "production" users want to click on an icon to start
the program but then they don't need the "debug" flag so that isn't a
problem.  Your developers however run from the command-line so they
-can- specify a debug or other flag at the time they invoke it.  Each
are happy so what is the problem with using the __debug__ flag again?

-Jeff

From orsenthil at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 04:26:08 2009
From: orsenthil at gmail.com (Senthil Kumaran)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:56:08 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
Message-ID: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 12:35:23PM +0530, Srijayanth Sridhar wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Are there any good python training programs in Bangalore? Can anybody point me
> in the right direction? This isn't for me, its for colleagues who might need to
> learn Python for an upcoming project.

Please search the archives of the group, few of the members had listed
their training programmes. You might want to contact them (if they
have not contacted you already).

There are good freelancers who can take up the training too.


-- 
Senthil

From lawgon at au-kbc.org  Tue Jun 16 06:43:02 2009
From: lawgon at au-kbc.org (Kenneth Gonsalves)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:13:02 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
Message-ID: <200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>

On Tuesday 16 June 2009 07:56:08 Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 12:35:23PM +0530, Srijayanth Sridhar wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Are there any good python training programs in Bangalore? Can anybody
> > point me in the right direction? This isn't for me, its for colleagues
> > who might need to learn Python for an upcoming project.
>
> Please search the archives of the group, few of the members had listed
> their training programmes. You might want to contact them (if they
> have not contacted you already).

frankly people who need to be _trained_ in python can't be of much calibre. I 
can understand using python to train people in programming, but not the other 
way around. 
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

From banibrata.dutta at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 06:53:04 2009
From: banibrata.dutta at gmail.com (Banibrata Dutta)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:23:04 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
Message-ID: <3de8e1f70906152153o44f1ce44r3a618a639f31646b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon at au-kbc.org>wrote:

> On Tuesday 16 June 2009 07:56:08 Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 12:35:23PM +0530, Srijayanth Sridhar wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Are there any good python training programs in Bangalore? Can anybody
> > > point me in the right direction? This isn't for me, its for colleagues
> > > who might need to learn Python for an upcoming project.
> >
> > Please search the archives of the group, few of the members had listed
> > their training programmes. You might want to contact them (if they
> > have not contacted you already).
>
> frankly people who need to be _trained_ in python can't be of much calibre.
> I
> can understand using python to train people in programming, but not the
> other
> way around.


Isn't that too much of -ve assumption and generalisation ? I've known
excellent programmers adept at using other languages, but a training helped
them a lot with getting them quickly started. Of course, the mileage did
vary, but the above generalisation is completely unfounded.

-- 
regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
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From dhananjay.nene at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 06:57:33 2009
From: dhananjay.nene at gmail.com (Dhananjay Nene)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:27:33 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
Message-ID: <bf97ab890906152157g113d2719s1b72147cbd384bb3@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon at au-kbc.org> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 16 June 2009 07:56:08 Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 12:35:23PM +0530, Srijayanth Sridhar wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Are there any good python training programs in Bangalore? Can anybody
> > > point me in the right direction? This isn't for me, its for colleagues
> > > who might need to learn Python for an upcoming project.
> >
> > Please search the archives of the group, few of the members had listed
> > their training programmes. You might want to contact them (if they
> > have not contacted you already).
>
> frankly people who need to be _trained_ in python can't be of much calibre. I
> can understand using python to train people in programming, but not the other
> way around.
> --
> regards
> Kenneth Gonsalves
> Associate
> NRC-FOSS
> http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

I respect your calibre in training yourself. But cannot respect every
organisation has the same luxury of waiting for programmers to train
themselves so that they can eventually start using python. I trained
myself in C and even parts of C++. But when I attended a training
programme by one of the core C++ team members, it substantially
expanded my capabilities on C++. Can't see how calibre is linked to
being trained .. every one of us has the potential to be trained
further - low, medium or high calibre.

Dhananjay
--
--------------------------------------------------------
blog: http://blog.dhananjaynene.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/dnene

From jayasimha.makineni at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 07:12:25 2009
From: jayasimha.makineni at gmail.com (jayasimha makineni)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:42:25 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <bf97ab890906152157g113d2719s1b72147cbd384bb3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<bf97ab890906152157g113d2719s1b72147cbd384bb3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb20dbb20906152212k25373e06s2d0dbb187ccccfee@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I have not touched Python for some time now.

But I am willing to train any kind of people on a freelance basis.

jayasimha
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From lawgon at au-kbc.org  Tue Jun 16 07:14:34 2009
From: lawgon at au-kbc.org (Kenneth Gonsalves)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:44:34 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <3de8e1f70906152153o44f1ce44r3a618a639f31646b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<3de8e1f70906152153o44f1ce44r3a618a639f31646b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200906161044.35177.lawgon@au-kbc.org>

On Tuesday 16 June 2009 10:23:04 Banibrata Dutta wrote:
> > frankly people who need to be _trained_ in python can't be of much
> > calibre. I
> > can understand using python to train people in programming, but not the
> > other
> > way around.
>
> Isn't that too much of -ve assumption and generalisation ? I've known
> excellent programmers adept at using other languages, but a training helped
> them a lot with getting them quickly started. Of course, the mileage did
> vary, but the above generalisation is completely unfounded.

I was expressing a personal opinion. My experience in the few python trainings 
that I have done was that I ended up training people in programming rather 
than in python as such. And since I am not much of a programmer, I have given 
up conducting python training. The most I am willing to do is a ten minute 
session with the python shell and make sure people know the 'dir' and 'help' 
commands. I also found that most of the people I had 'trained' in python 
migrated back to the languages they came from (php or dotnet).

As for languages like C, training makes more sense as it is a tough language - 
I have never managed to learn it. And training in perl makes even less sense 
as there are so many ways to do things that trainer and trainee will never see 
eye to eye.
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

From ramdas at developeriq.com  Tue Jun 16 07:29:19 2009
From: ramdas at developeriq.com (Ramdas S)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:59:19 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <200906161044.35177.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<3de8e1f70906152153o44f1ce44r3a618a639f31646b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906161044.35177.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
Message-ID: <6e38f9f00906152229i4a6587c4if1fdb98652c784a0@mail.gmail.com>

IMHO, even an experienced hand in C/C++ or Java need not take to Python
easily, because of the baggage they carry, and they expect certain things to
work the way their favorite language works. This can be quite frustrating if
learning Python is for a project they need to start next Monday. This is
where a trainer can help, because the trainer can guide and point out
potential pitfalls, and get a developer through the basics in a jiffy.

While most of us in this group are self taught Python developers and has
perhaps enjoyed from the joys of self learning, it wont be a nice experience
if someone targets that "I am going to be a Python developer by next week"!

I guess getting trained is also more about productivity, also if the trainer
is really good, then even an experienced Python developer can learn one or
two new tips and tricks.


On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon at au-kbc.org>wrote:

> On Tuesday 16 June 2009 10:23:04 Banibrata Dutta wrote:
> > > frankly people who need to be _trained_ in python can't be of much
> > > calibre. I
> > > can understand using python to train people in programming, but not the
> > > other
> > > way around.
> >
> > Isn't that too much of -ve assumption and generalisation ? I've known
> > excellent programmers adept at using other languages, but a training
> helped
> > them a lot with getting them quickly started. Of course, the mileage did
> > vary, but the above generalisation is completely unfounded.
>
> I was expressing a personal opinion. My experience in the few python
> trainings
> that I have done was that I ended up training people in programming rather
> than in python as such. And since I am not much of a programmer, I have
> given
> up conducting python training. The most I am willing to do is a ten minute
> session with the python shell and make sure people know the 'dir' and
> 'help'
> commands. I also found that most of the people I had 'trained' in python
> migrated back to the languages they came from (php or dotnet).
>
> As for languages like C, training makes more sense as it is a tough
> language -
> I have never managed to learn it. And training in perl makes even less
> sense
> as there are so many ways to do things that trainer and trainee will never
> see
> eye to eye.
> --
> regards
> Kenneth Gonsalves
> Associate
> NRC-FOSS
> http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
Ramdas S
+91 9342 583 065
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From jayasimha.makineni at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 07:32:07 2009
From: jayasimha.makineni at gmail.com (jayasimha makineni)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:02:07 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <200906161044.35177.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<3de8e1f70906152153o44f1ce44r3a618a639f31646b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906161044.35177.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
Message-ID: <cb20dbb20906152232w3d852d0bld635fd37053ae4c6@mail.gmail.com>

Kenneth,

You have been hitting the nail on its head repeatedly. I enjoy watching
(reading) that.

Let us train more programmers who can truly be *programmers*. Python is
perhaps the best vehicle for that journey. My understanding is that those
who claim to be good programmers do not like it if they are told on their
face that they still learning to be just programmers. (What is wrong with
life long learning anyway ? It is never late to learn). And their managers
have an even worse feeling to face facts because they have to justify their
salaries and other bills too.

jayasimha
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From rmathews at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 08:03:29 2009
From: rmathews at gmail.com (Roshan Mathews)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:33:29 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <bf97ab890906152157g113d2719s1b72147cbd384bb3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<bf97ab890906152157g113d2719s1b72147cbd384bb3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1c4dc2780906152303i19e582fax5af06b362e339112@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Dhananjay
Nene<dhananjay.nene at gmail.com> wrote:
> I respect your calibre in training yourself. But cannot respect every
> organisation has the same luxury of waiting for programmers to train
> themselves so that they can eventually start using python. I trained
> myself in C and even parts of C++. But when I attended a training
> programme by one of the core C++ team members, it substantially
> expanded my capabilities on C++. Can't see how calibre is linked to
> being trained .. every one of us has the potential to be trained
> further - low, medium or high calibre.
>
What C++ core team member? :-/

Roshan

From jeff at taupro.com  Tue Jun 16 08:27:35 2009
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:27:35 -0500
Subject: [BangPypers] How to create Debug and Release code in Python
In-Reply-To: <a13a3b480906071237x1f42cdc4pc7235deed1d3ec91@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a13a3b480906071237x1f42cdc4pc7235deed1d3ec91@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A373B57.6060706@taupro.com>

Vishal wrote:
> 
> *Is there a way to create a conditionally compilable Python script
> ?* Some facility that would prevent from code getting compiled into
> ".pyc"....something like the old #ifdef #endif preprocessor
> directives....is there a Python preprocessory available :)

I've given this more thought.  In the April 2009 issue of Python
Magazine is a wonderful article by Paul McGuire on writing Domain
Specific Languages.  It shows how to intercept the import of specific
types of files to preprocess the source before compiling it into
bytecode.  I played with those ideas to see what could be done for your
case.

So say you had a module marked up with special commenting like:

--- cut here --- abc.pyp
def main():
    print "Hello"  #? DEBUG
    print "There"  #? DEBUG2
    print "World"
--- cut here --- abc.pyp

Then in your main module you could do the following:

--- cut here --- demo.py
import cond_importer # can put in site.py for global application

import abc
abc.main()
--- cut here --- demo.py

Now you run the program normally and get:

$ python2.5 demo.py
Hello
There
World

or you can filter out lines using:

$ EXCLUDES=DEBUG python2.5 demo.py
There
World

or even:

$ EXCLUDES=DEBUG:DEBUG2 python2.5 demo.py
World

The magic to make this happen is just:

--- cut here --- cond_import.py
from __future__ import with_statement # for Python < 2.6

import os
import imputil
import re

patt = re.compile(r".*#\? (?P<tag>[_a-zA-Z][_a-zA-Z0-9]*)$")

try: # construct a set of tags to exclude in .py source
    pyexcludes = frozenset(os.environ['EXCLUDES'].split(':'))
except Exception:
    pyexcludes = frozenset()

def preprocess_source(filepath, fileinfo, filename):

    src = []
    with file(filepath, 'r') as f:
        for line in f:
            m = patt.match(line)
            if m is None or m.group('tag') not in pyexcludes:
                src.append(line)

        src = '\n'.join(src)
        codeobj = compile(src, filepath, 'exec')

    # create return tuple:
    #   import flag (0=module, 1=package)
    #   code object
    #   dictionary of variable definitions
    return 0, codeobj, {}

importer = imputil.ImportManager()
importer.add_suffix('.pyp', preprocess_source)
importer.install()
--- cut here --- cond_import.py

I arbitrarily chose a file extension of .pyp for files to preprocess but
 you could use anything.  And the tags to exclude could instead be tags
to include.  For handling packages (dirs) instead of modules you'd have
to add a test for file or directory and change the code a bit.

Anyway it raises some interesting possibilities of preprocessing.
Python is just so cool.

-Jeff

From jayasimha.makineni at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 08:34:10 2009
From: jayasimha.makineni at gmail.com (jayasimha makineni)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:04:10 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <cb20dbb20906152232w3d852d0bld635fd37053ae4c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<3de8e1f70906152153o44f1ce44r3a618a639f31646b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906161044.35177.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<cb20dbb20906152232w3d852d0bld635fd37053ae4c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb20dbb20906152334l6e468bc3m5d2cc00aa7d6466f@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry folks. Some editing on what i just typed.

still learning >> still are learning

to face  >> when encouraged to face


On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:02 AM, jayasimha makineni <
jayasimha.makineni at gmail.com> wrote:

> Kenneth,
>
> You have been hitting the nail on its head repeatedly. I enjoy watching
> (reading) that.
>
> Let us train more programmers who can truly be *programmers*. Python is
> perhaps the best vehicle for that journey. My understanding is that those
> who claim to be good programmers do not like it if they are told on their
> face that they still learning to be just programmers. (What is wrong with
> life long learning anyway ? It is never late to learn). And their managers
> have an even worse feeling to face facts because they have to justify their
> salaries and other bills too.
>
> jayasimha
>
>
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From sriramnrn at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 08:46:28 2009
From: sriramnrn at gmail.com (Sriram Narayanan)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:16:28 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <6e38f9f00906152229i4a6587c4if1fdb98652c784a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<3de8e1f70906152153o44f1ce44r3a618a639f31646b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906161044.35177.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<6e38f9f00906152229i4a6587c4if1fdb98652c784a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49977f270906152346w517350b0tcfff539907743fa5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Ramdas S<ramdas at developeriq.com> wrote:
> IMHO, even an experienced hand in C/C++ or Java need not take to Python
> easily, because of the baggage they carry, and they expect certain things to
> work the way their favorite language works. This can be quite frustrating if
> learning Python is for a project they need to start next Monday. This is
> where a trainer can help, because the trainer can guide and point out
> potential pitfalls, and get a developer through the basics in a jiffy.
>

This baggage is indeed an issue. Thinking in terms of a new language
would require reading a lot of code written using that language, and
then too, one cannot be certain.

To give you my own example, I learned my Object Oriented Programming
from really senior Smalltalkers, and I developed and sold components
based on excellent IBM business object frameworks. After I joined
Thoughtworks, I was exposed to a different world where dependency
injection was proposed as an alternative to getters and setters
(accessors, as some of us may call them), where the line between "do
the simplest thing possible" and "do what ever is necessary to
complete just _your_ work for the day" can be a fine line, and where
the same Java language that I had used for six years, was now being
used in a different way.

I had a lot of excess luggage, some of which I still lug around with
me - and all this was on the same language that I had been using.

When you move to a different language, there would have to be paradigm
shifts, new ways of thinking, and even pitfalls that one may not
recognize to be a pitfall.

In such cases, I feel that it can help if one has something like
"Python for Java programmers" - either as a book, as a series of
sample code and or web page articles, or even a training session.

-- Sriram

From sriramnrn at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 08:48:11 2009
From: sriramnrn at gmail.com (Sriram Narayanan)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:18:11 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] How to create Debug and Release code in Python
In-Reply-To: <4A373B57.6060706@taupro.com>
References: <a13a3b480906071237x1f42cdc4pc7235deed1d3ec91@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A373B57.6060706@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <49977f270906152348w1f895bf7jee20e178885e613d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Jeff Rush<jeff at taupro.com> wrote:
> I've given this more thought. ?In the April 2009 issue of Python
> Magazine is a wonderful article by Paul McGuire on writing Domain
> Specific Languages. ?It shows how to intercept the import of specific
> types of files to preprocess the source before compiling it into
> bytecode. ?I played with those ideas to see what could be done for your
> case.
>

This was informative. Thank you !

-- Sriram

From srijayanth at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 09:35:03 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:05:03 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <cb20dbb20906152232w3d852d0bld635fd37053ae4c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<3de8e1f70906152153o44f1ce44r3a618a639f31646b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906161044.35177.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<cb20dbb20906152232w3d852d0bld635fd37053ae4c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906160035n7fb4645bodd951109e1ff1c24@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:02 AM, jayasimha makineni <
jayasimha.makineni at gmail.com> wrote:

> Kenneth,
>
> You have been hitting the nail on its head repeatedly. I enjoy watching
> (reading) that.
>
> Let us train more programmers who can truly be *programmers*. Python is
> perhaps the best vehicle for that journey. My understanding is that those
> who claim to be good programmers do not like it if they are told on their
> face that they still learning to be just programmers. (What is wrong with
> life long learning anyway ? It is never late to learn). And their managers
> have an even worse feeling to face facts because they have to justify their
> salaries and other bills too.
>
> jayasimha
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>

You seem to be questioning the wrong problem. What you state might be
entirely true but is irrelevant in this context. Any given company has a
million kabillion things to do. Resources are precious, and allowing them to
self-learn on company time is not exactly a wise financial decision. There
is no easy way to monitor them and measure their progress if they do
self-learn. A lot of people might not take to the decision seriously enough
and as mentioned by other posters, might carry around serious paradigm based
baggage.

Several C/C++ people I've known take their time to find their footing with
perl, esp with using Hash as an important data structure. While specific
corporate training might not be any better at improving this than self help,
a training course could be structured well enough to stress on idiomatic
concepts that they might never find out by reading certain books or looking
at certain sites.

Also, while I do advocate self-help, I honestly believe that a sense of
curiosity is > than the sources you learn from.

Jayanth
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From banibrata.dutta at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 10:33:45 2009
From: banibrata.dutta at gmail.com (Banibrata Dutta)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:03:45 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Good Python training in blr
In-Reply-To: <cb20dbb20906152232w3d852d0bld635fd37053ae4c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090616022608.GA4284@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<200906161013.02583.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<3de8e1f70906152153o44f1ce44r3a618a639f31646b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906161044.35177.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
	<cb20dbb20906152232w3d852d0bld635fd37053ae4c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3de8e1f70906160133x4c6e660tf7bf5dc829a76eaf@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:02 AM, jayasimha makineni <
jayasimha.makineni at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Let us train more programmers who can truly be *programmers*. Python is


How do you make that decision ? Is there an objective set of criterion ?


> perhaps the best vehicle for that journey. My understanding is that those
> who


Advocacy isn't the subject matter, I believe ! :-)
There is "a best tool" for every job, and very rarely, "one best tool" for
every job !!

<snip>


> And their managers have an even worse feeling to face facts because they
> have to justify their salaries and other bills too.
>

First thing is for the managers to justify their own salaries. IMHO, talking
of lacunae, we are riddled with a defunct hierarchy of managers who switched
tracks because they could no longer keep up with the productivity and
smartness of younger, smarter and more agile bunch of engineers !! of
course, that is generalisation streched too far... but i doubt, too detached
from reality.

-- 
regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
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From tiwariabhishekin at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 15:52:55 2009
From: tiwariabhishekin at gmail.com (Abhishek Tiwari)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:22:55 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>

 *Question :*
The first list contains some items, and the second list contains their value
(higher is better).

items = [apple, car, town, phone]
values = [5, 2, 7, 1]

Show how to sort the 'items' list based on the 'values' list so that you end
up with the following two lists:

items = [town, apple, car, phone]
values = [7, 5, 2, 1]

*Ans. 1*

values, items = list(zip(*sorted(zip(values,items), reverse=True)))

*Ans. 2*
new_values = sorted(values, reverse=True)
new_items = [items[x] for x in map(values.index,new_values)]


I would like to know which method is better and why?


-- 
With Regards,
Abhishek Tiwari
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From pradeep at btbytes.com  Tue Jun 16 16:42:15 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:42:15 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906160742k219708b7j98a221e7201c99e6@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Abhishek
Tiwari<tiwariabhishekin at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would like to know which method is better and why?

Better for what purpose?
1. speed of execution?
2. elegance?

More importantly, which method do you think is better and why?

+PG

From pradeep at btbytes.com  Tue Jun 16 16:48:29 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:48:29 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906160748h7ac83994uaa64d3441902ce01@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Abhishek
Tiwari<tiwariabhishekin at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would like to know which method is better and why?

Looks like this exact question was discussed earlier here:
http://www.nabble.com/sorting-two-corresponding-lists--td23139787.html

From pradeep at btbytes.com  Tue Jun 16 17:58:32 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:58:32 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906160742k219708b7j98a221e7201c99e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906160742k219708b7j98a221e7201c99e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906160858n1408ca31x500ec35dd43ec2d5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Pradeep Gowda<pradeep at btbytes.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Abhishek
> Tiwari<tiwariabhishekin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I would like to know which method is better and why?
>
> Better for what purpose?
> 1. speed of execution?
> 2. elegance?

The list comprehension solution is slightly more approachable
(many are not familiar with the zip() function. I don't use zip on the
first go, if at all.)

The zip solution is succinct.

Also, by the virtue of being a built-in function zip() should be
faster than the second approach.

I wrote a script to test this hypothesis : http://dpaste.com/55994/
The zip() version is 100 times faster on average than the other solution.

#  avg time taken for ans1 :  0.0035585308075
#  avg time taken for ans2 :  0.306885209084
(averaged over 50 runs)

+PG

From anandology at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 18:39:32 2009
From: anandology at gmail.com (Anand Chitipothu)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:09:32 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com> 
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41139fcb0906160939v6aabce37w92cf613774d0ab46@mail.gmail.com>

2009/6/16 Abhishek Tiwari <tiwariabhishekin at gmail.com>:
> Question :
> The first list contains some items, and the second list contains their value
> (higher is better).
>
> items = [apple, car, town, phone]
> values = [5, 2, 7, 1]
>
> Show how to sort the 'items' list based on the 'values' list so that you end
> up with the following two lists:
>
> items = [town, apple, car, phone]
> values = [7, 5, 2, 1]
>
> Ans. 1
>
> values, items = list(zip(*sorted(zip(values,items), reverse=True)))
>
> Ans. 2
> new_values = sorted(values, reverse=True)
> new_items = [items[x] for x in map(values.index,new_values)]
>
>
> I would like to know which method is better and why?

How about this?

d = dict(zip(items, values))
new_items = sorted(items, key=d.__getitem__, reverse=True)

From anandology at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 18:35:38 2009
From: anandology at gmail.com (Anand Chitipothu)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:05:38 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906160858n1408ca31x500ec35dd43ec2d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com> 
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com> 
	<3e3294b70906160742k219708b7j98a221e7201c99e6@mail.gmail.com> 
	<3e3294b70906160858n1408ca31x500ec35dd43ec2d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41139fcb0906160935k26c1119n2edbc38b89b61d2e@mail.gmail.com>

> The zip solution is succinct.
>
> Also, by the virtue of being a built-in function zip() should be
> faster than the second approach.

Complexity of first solution is O(n) and complexity of second solution
is O(n^2) because it using values.index function, which is O(n).

From orsenthil at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 18:40:49 2009
From: orsenthil at gmail.com (Senthil Kumaran)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:10:49 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906160858n1408ca31x500ec35dd43ec2d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906160742k219708b7j98a221e7201c99e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906160858n1408ca31x500ec35dd43ec2d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090616164049.GA17884@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>


On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:58:32AM -0400, Pradeep Gowda wrote:

> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Abhishek
> > Tiwari<tiwariabhishekin at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I would like to know which method is better and why?


Abhishek, whichever you understand best is better. 


> I wrote a script to test this hypothesis : http://dpaste.com/55994/
> The zip() version is 100 times faster on average than the other solution.

Pradeep: 
Here is a surprise:
http://dpaste.com/hold/56023/


-- 
Senthil


From pradeep at btbytes.com  Tue Jun 16 18:55:28 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:55:28 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <20090616164049.GA17884@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906160742k219708b7j98a221e7201c99e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906160858n1408ca31x500ec35dd43ec2d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090616164049.GA17884@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906160955v183e012cje568e8777514731a@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Senthil Kumaran<orsenthil at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:58:32AM -0400, Pradeep Gowda wrote:
>
>> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Abhishek
>> > Tiwari<tiwariabhishekin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> I would like to know which method is better and why?
>
>
> Abhishek, whichever you understand best is better.
>
>
>> I wrote a script to test this hypothesis : http://dpaste.com/55994/
>> The zip() version is 100 times faster on average than the other solution.
>
> Pradeep:
> Here is a surprise:
> http://dpaste.com/hold/56023/

I know about the timeit module. Was too lazy to look up the docs.

From orsenthil at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 19:42:01 2009
From: orsenthil at gmail.com (Senthil Kumaran)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:12:01 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <3e3294b70906160955v183e012cje568e8777514731a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906160742k219708b7j98a221e7201c99e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906160858n1408ca31x500ec35dd43ec2d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090616164049.GA17884@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<3e3294b70906160955v183e012cje568e8777514731a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090616174201.GA4314@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:55:28PM -0400, Pradeep Gowda wrote:
> >> I wrote a script to test this hypothesis : http://dpaste.com/55994/
> >> The zip() version is 100 times faster on average than the other solution.
> >
> > Pradeep:
> > Here is a surprise:
> > http://dpaste.com/hold/56023/
> 
> I know about the timeit module. Was too lazy to look up the docs.

The surprise was in the results obtained.

-- 
Senthil


From pradeep at btbytes.com  Tue Jun 16 19:57:20 2009
From: pradeep at btbytes.com (Pradeep Gowda)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:57:20 -0400
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <20090616174201.GA4314@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906160742k219708b7j98a221e7201c99e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<3e3294b70906160858n1408ca31x500ec35dd43ec2d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090616164049.GA17884@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<3e3294b70906160955v183e012cje568e8777514731a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090616174201.GA4314@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
Message-ID: <3e3294b70906161057x61400af0m477dcb0b8d7eae2e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Senthil Kumaran<orsenthil at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:55:28PM -0400, Pradeep Gowda wrote:
>> >> I wrote a script to test this hypothesis : http://dpaste.com/55994/
>> >> The zip() version is 100 times faster on average than the other solution.
>> >
>> > Pradeep:
>> > Here is a surprise:
>> > http://dpaste.com/hold/56023/
>>
>> I know about the timeit module. Was too lazy to look up the docs.
>
> The surprise was in the results obtained.

Oops, did not notice that :)

Doesn't that contradict the time complexity explanation given by Anand?

Mind running your tests with a larger dataset like the one I used and
sharing the results?

+PG

From jeff at taupro.com  Tue Jun 16 20:31:54 2009
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:31:54 -0500
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>

Abhishek Tiwari wrote:
>  
> *Ans. 1*
>  
> values, items = list(zip(*sorted(zip(values,items), reverse=True)))
>  
> *Ans. 2*
> new_values = sorted(values, reverse=True)
> new_items = [items[x] for x in map(values.index,new_values)]
>  
> I would like to know which method is better and why?

The first one is better because the second one has a bug. ;-)

Because of the way the second one uses values.index, it assumes there is
a unique mapping between items and values.  When a duplicate integer
appears in values, the second solution returns the wrong answer.

-Jeff

From vsapre80 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 21:59:30 2009
From: vsapre80 at gmail.com (Vishal)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 01:29:30 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] How to create Debug and Release code in Python
In-Reply-To: <4A373B57.6060706@taupro.com>
References: <a13a3b480906071237x1f42cdc4pc7235deed1d3ec91@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A373B57.6060706@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <a13a3b480906161259m5d2d8ae9i46705b6dd8c97d70@mail.gmail.com>

Cool....While I was using preprocessor directives in C/C++...the usual
internet rant I've always heard, is "preprocessor is bad, using preprocessor
is bad habit.". Somehow I feel that preprocessing is not all that bad. It
can and does solve important problems. May be these rants mostly referred to
the 'macro' side of things...

Thanks a lot Jeff, this was really informative.

Vishal

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:

> Vishal wrote:
> >
> > *Is there a way to create a conditionally compilable Python script
> > ?* Some facility that would prevent from code getting compiled into
> > ".pyc"....something like the old #ifdef #endif preprocessor
> > directives....is there a Python preprocessory available :)
>
> I've given this more thought.  In the April 2009 issue of Python
> Magazine is a wonderful article by Paul McGuire on writing Domain
> Specific Languages.  It shows how to intercept the import of specific
> types of files to preprocess the source before compiling it into
> bytecode.  I played with those ideas to see what could be done for your
> case.
>
> So say you had a module marked up with special commenting like:
>
> --- cut here --- abc.pyp
> def main():
>    print "Hello"  #? DEBUG
>    print "There"  #? DEBUG2
>    print "World"
> --- cut here --- abc.pyp
>
> Then in your main module you could do the following:
>
> --- cut here --- demo.py
> import cond_importer # can put in site.py for global application
>
> import abc
> abc.main()
> --- cut here --- demo.py
>
> Now you run the program normally and get:
>
> $ python2.5 demo.py
> Hello
> There
> World
>
> or you can filter out lines using:
>
> $ EXCLUDES=DEBUG python2.5 demo.py
> There
> World
>
> or even:
>
> $ EXCLUDES=DEBUG:DEBUG2 python2.5 demo.py
> World
>
> The magic to make this happen is just:
>
> --- cut here --- cond_import.py
> from __future__ import with_statement # for Python < 2.6
>
> import os
> import imputil
> import re
>
> patt = re.compile(r".*#\? (?P<tag>[_a-zA-Z][_a-zA-Z0-9]*)$")
>
> try: # construct a set of tags to exclude in .py source
>    pyexcludes = frozenset(os.environ['EXCLUDES'].split(':'))
> except Exception:
>    pyexcludes = frozenset()
>
> def preprocess_source(filepath, fileinfo, filename):
>
>    src = []
>    with file(filepath, 'r') as f:
>        for line in f:
>            m = patt.match(line)
>            if m is None or m.group('tag') not in pyexcludes:
>                src.append(line)
>
>        src = '\n'.join(src)
>        codeobj = compile(src, filepath, 'exec')
>
>    # create return tuple:
>    #   import flag (0=module, 1=package)
>    #   code object
>    #   dictionary of variable definitions
>    return 0, codeobj, {}
>
> importer = imputil.ImportManager()
> importer.add_suffix('.pyp', preprocess_source)
> importer.install()
> --- cut here --- cond_import.py
>
> I arbitrarily chose a file extension of .pyp for files to preprocess but
>  you could use anything.  And the tags to exclude could instead be tags
> to include.  For handling packages (dirs) instead of modules you'd have
> to add a test for file or directory and change the code a bit.
>
> Anyway it raises some interesting possibilities of preprocessing.
> Python is just so cool.
>
> -Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
Thanks and best regards,
Vishal Sapre

---

"So say...Day by day, in every way, I am getting better, better and better
!!!"
"A Strong and Positive attitude creates more miracles than anything else.
Because...Life is 10% how you make it, and 90% how you take it"
"Diamond is another piece of coal that did well under pressure?
"Happiness keeps u Sweet, Trials keep u Strong,
Sorrow keeps u Human, Failure Keeps u Humble,
Success keeps u Glowing, But only God Keeps u Going.....Keep Going....."
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From vsapre80 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 22:09:42 2009
From: vsapre80 at gmail.com (Vishal)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 01:39:42 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] How to create Debug and Release code in Python
In-Reply-To: <a13a3b480906161259m5d2d8ae9i46705b6dd8c97d70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a13a3b480906071237x1f42cdc4pc7235deed1d3ec91@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A373B57.6060706@taupro.com>
	<a13a3b480906161259m5d2d8ae9i46705b6dd8c97d70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a13a3b480906161309m7eec3a8u8efa4be503cd2fb3@mail.gmail.com>

I had come across two separate modules that did something on the same lines.one
is 'pypp' and the other is 'preprocess.py' from ActiveState.

in the former, if the file contains a comment '#pypp" somewhere in the
file...it gets preprocessed....but it only uses MakoTemplates for
preprocessing..and so you need to have Mako on your machine.

the later, preprocess.py is a script that looks for specific tagged comments
like #ifdef, #ifndef etc and creates another file...after preprocessing.

A marriage between the two seems to be this Imputil thing from Paul McGuire
:))

One of the things that needs to be done...is, if a upper layer import is
working like this:

# ---- topMod.py ---
import something.onething as one
import something.anotherthing as another

And 'onething.py' and 'anotherthing.py' contain the preprocessor
directives...the new file that gets made and is loaded....should now be
loaded with their respective module names(i.e. 'one' and 'another'). Need to
do something for this....

Python is certainly...cool.

Enjoy,
Vishal

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 1:29 AM, Vishal <vsapre80 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Cool....While I was using preprocessor directives in C/C++...the usual
> internet rant I've always heard, is "preprocessor is bad, using preprocessor
> is bad habit.". Somehow I feel that preprocessing is not all that bad. It
> can and does solve important problems. May be these rants mostly referred to
> the 'macro' side of things...
>
> Thanks a lot Jeff, this was really informative.
>
> Vishal
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:
>
>> Vishal wrote:
>> >
>> > *Is there a way to create a conditionally compilable Python script
>> > ?* Some facility that would prevent from code getting compiled into
>> > ".pyc"....something like the old #ifdef #endif preprocessor
>> > directives....is there a Python preprocessory available :)
>>
>> I've given this more thought.  In the April 2009 issue of Python
>> Magazine is a wonderful article by Paul McGuire on writing Domain
>> Specific Languages.  It shows how to intercept the import of specific
>> types of files to preprocess the source before compiling it into
>> bytecode.  I played with those ideas to see what could be done for your
>> case.
>>
>> So say you had a module marked up with special commenting like:
>>
>> --- cut here --- abc.pyp
>> def main():
>>    print "Hello"  #? DEBUG
>>    print "There"  #? DEBUG2
>>    print "World"
>> --- cut here --- abc.pyp
>>
>> Then in your main module you could do the following:
>>
>> --- cut here --- demo.py
>> import cond_importer # can put in site.py for global application
>>
>> import abc
>> abc.main()
>> --- cut here --- demo.py
>>
>> Now you run the program normally and get:
>>
>> $ python2.5 demo.py
>> Hello
>> There
>> World
>>
>> or you can filter out lines using:
>>
>> $ EXCLUDES=DEBUG python2.5 demo.py
>> There
>> World
>>
>> or even:
>>
>> $ EXCLUDES=DEBUG:DEBUG2 python2.5 demo.py
>> World
>>
>> The magic to make this happen is just:
>>
>> --- cut here --- cond_import.py
>> from __future__ import with_statement # for Python < 2.6
>>
>> import os
>> import imputil
>> import re
>>
>> patt = re.compile(r".*#\? (?P<tag>[_a-zA-Z][_a-zA-Z0-9]*)$")
>>
>> try: # construct a set of tags to exclude in .py source
>>    pyexcludes = frozenset(os.environ['EXCLUDES'].split(':'))
>> except Exception:
>>    pyexcludes = frozenset()
>>
>> def preprocess_source(filepath, fileinfo, filename):
>>
>>    src = []
>>    with file(filepath, 'r') as f:
>>        for line in f:
>>            m = patt.match(line)
>>            if m is None or m.group('tag') not in pyexcludes:
>>                src.append(line)
>>
>>        src = '\n'.join(src)
>>        codeobj = compile(src, filepath, 'exec')
>>
>>    # create return tuple:
>>    #   import flag (0=module, 1=package)
>>    #   code object
>>    #   dictionary of variable definitions
>>    return 0, codeobj, {}
>>
>> importer = imputil.ImportManager()
>> importer.add_suffix('.pyp', preprocess_source)
>> importer.install()
>> --- cut here --- cond_import.py
>>
>> I arbitrarily chose a file extension of .pyp for files to preprocess but
>>  you could use anything.  And the tags to exclude could instead be tags
>> to include.  For handling packages (dirs) instead of modules you'd have
>> to add a test for file or directory and change the code a bit.
>>
>> Anyway it raises some interesting possibilities of preprocessing.
>> Python is just so cool.
>>
>> -Jeff
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks and best regards,
> Vishal Sapre
>
> ---
>
> "So say...Day by day, in every way, I am getting better, better and better
> !!!"
> "A Strong and Positive attitude creates more miracles than anything else.
> Because...Life is 10% how you make it, and 90% how you take it"
> "Diamond is another piece of coal that did well under pressure?
> "Happiness keeps u Sweet, Trials keep u Strong,
> Sorrow keeps u Human, Failure Keeps u Humble,
> Success keeps u Glowing, But only God Keeps u Going.....Keep Going....."
>



-- 
Thanks and best regards,
Vishal Sapre

---

"So say...Day by day, in every way, I am getting better, better and better
!!!"
"A Strong and Positive attitude creates more miracles than anything else.
Because...Life is 10% how you make it, and 90% how you take it"
"Diamond is another piece of coal that did well under pressure?
"Happiness keeps u Sweet, Trials keep u Strong,
Sorrow keeps u Human, Failure Keeps u Humble,
Success keeps u Glowing, But only God Keeps u Going.....Keep Going....."
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From abpillai at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 08:29:05 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:59:05 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:

> Abhishek Tiwari wrote:
> >
> > *Ans. 1*
> >
> > values, items = list(zip(*sorted(zip(values,items), reverse=True)))
> >
> > *Ans. 2*
> > new_values = sorted(values, reverse=True)
> > new_items = [items[x] for x in map(values.index,new_values)]
> >
> > I would like to know which method is better and why?
>
> The first one is better because the second one has a bug. ;-)
>
> Because of the way the second one uses values.index, it assumes there is
> a unique mapping between items and values.  When a duplicate integer
> appears in values, the second solution returns the wrong answer.


Here is a 4th solution.

 [item[1] for item in sorted(zip(values, items))][-1::-1]

 If you are too lazy to write a timeit function, you can use my timeit
 wrapper script at ASPN cookbook.

 http://code.activestate.com/recipes/389767/

I timed all the solutions provided so far.

def f1(): list(zip(*sorted(zip(values,items), reverse=True)))

def f2():
    new_values = sorted(values, reverse=True); [items[x] for x
map(values.index,new_values)]

def f3():
    [item[1] for item in sorted(zip(values, items))][-1::-1]

def f4():
    d = dict(zip(items, values))
    new_items = sorted(items, key=d.__getitem__, reverse=True)

Here are the times printed in order of f1...f4 for 10,000 passes.

[anand at localhost python]$ python listsort.py
6.97 usec/pass
6.95 usec/pass
4.65 usec/pass
9.27 usec/pass

Don't use sorted(..., reverse=True), it is a killer in terms of time.
This is the reason why f4(...) does not work anywhere close to
what is expected out of a dict(...) solution and why f1(...) performs
much below par.

For example, let us change f4(...) to not to use sorted(..., reverse=True)

def f4():
    d = dict(zip(items, values))
    new_items = sorted(items, key=d.__getitem__)[-1::-1]

The performance improves a bit,

[anand at localhost python]$ python listsort.py
7.06 usec/pass
7.04 usec/pass
4.61 usec/pass
9.04 usec/pass

To see the real effect of sorted(..., reverse=True), let us modify f3(...)
to
 use it instead of reversing the list at the end.


def f3():
    [item[1] for item in sorted(zip(values, items), reverse=True)]

 [anand at localhost python]$ python listsort.py
7.19 usec/pass
7.13 usec/pass
6.39 usec/pass*
9.72 usec/pass

The function f3() slows down almost 1.3 times.

Don't use sorted(..., reverse=True). Instead reverse the list in place
by using reverse slicing of l[-1::-1], which is about 1.5 times faster.



>
> -Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
-Anand
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From abpillai at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 08:31:50 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:01:50 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>
	<8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906162331s2aab632ds7a0c69d45497a556@mail.gmail.com>

I have put my test code here.

http://dpaste.com/hold/56288/

For it to work, you need to save recipe
http://code.activestate.com/recipes/389767/
as mytimeit.py .

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Anand Balachandran Pillai <
abpillai at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> -Jeff
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>
>
>
> --
> -Anand
>
>
>
>


-- 
-Anand
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From anandology at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 09:24:45 2009
From: anandology at gmail.com (Anand Chitipothu)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:54:45 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com> 
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>
	<8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41139fcb0906170024t739c5cdfmfb53b2cc13164eda@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Don't use sorted(..., reverse=True). Instead reverse the list in place
> by using reverse slicing of l[-1::-1], which is about 1.5 times faster.

Why are you using [-1::-1] for reversing? Isn't [::-1] the python
idiom for reversing a list?

From abpillai at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 10:27:23 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:57:23 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <41139fcb0906170024t739c5cdfmfb53b2cc13164eda@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>
	<8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<41139fcb0906170024t739c5cdfmfb53b2cc13164eda@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906170127y240ee981te1d036ad802501c7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Anand Chitipothu <anandology at gmail.com>wrote:

> >
> > Don't use sorted(..., reverse=True). Instead reverse the list in place
> > by using reverse slicing of l[-1::-1], which is about 1.5 times faster.
>
> Why are you using [-1::-1] for reversing? Isn't [::-1] the python
> idiom for reversing a list?


I am used to [-1::-1] and "Explicit is better than implicit".
[::-1] gives (at least to me) the impression that it is equal to [0::-1]
which it is not.


>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
-Anand
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From srijayanth at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 12:45:52 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:15:52 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <8548c5f30906170127y240ee981te1d036ad802501c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>
	<8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<41139fcb0906170024t739c5cdfmfb53b2cc13164eda@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906170127y240ee981te1d036ad802501c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906170345o14661eacs9f14c1c82456ad1d@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Anand Balachandran Pillai <
abpillai at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Anand Chitipothu <anandology at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Don't use sorted(..., reverse=True). Instead reverse the list in place
>> > by using reverse slicing of l[-1::-1], which is about 1.5 times faster.
>>
>> Why are you using [-1::-1] for reversing? Isn't [::-1] the python
>> idiom for reversing a list?
>
>
> I am used to [-1::-1] and "Explicit is better than implicit".
> [::-1] gives (at least to me) the impression that it is equal to [0::-1]
> which it is not.
>
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
>
>
>
> --
> -Anand
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>
As a python newbie, I find this a bit annoying. It would be nicer to have a
simple reverse method in the str class.

name="The world according to Garp"
# name.reverse() or str.reverse(name) sure beats the hell out of
name[-1::-1] or name[::-1]

Jayanth
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From abpillai at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 15:36:48 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:06:48 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906170345o14661eacs9f14c1c82456ad1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>
	<8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<41139fcb0906170024t739c5cdfmfb53b2cc13164eda@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906170127y240ee981te1d036ad802501c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906170345o14661eacs9f14c1c82456ad1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906170636g3e14c068y9d72ae4cf86dc7e8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Srijayanth Sridhar <srijayanth at gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>>
> As a python newbie, I find this a bit annoying. It would be nicer to have a
> simple reverse method in the str class.
>
> name="The world according to Garp"
> # name.reverse() or str.reverse(name) sure beats the hell out of
> name[-1::-1] or name[::-1]
>

 Unfortunately, this would violate the "immutability" of the str object.
 As you may know, a string object is immutable, i.e it cannot be modified
 in place.

 The 'reverse' as implemented on the list container modifies
 it in place. So a similar method on the 'str' container would also have
 to have a similar effect. But 'str' is immutable, so this is not possible.

 Otherwise 'reverse' on str has to return a new string object, reversed
 but then it violates the Python idiom that container types, when having
 similar methods, should work similarly.

 If you don't like s[::-1], then the closest would be
''.join([item for item in reversed(s)]), but that ain't close enough :)


>
> Jayanth
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
-Anand
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From anandology at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 15:41:39 2009
From: anandology at gmail.com (Anand Chitipothu)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:11:39 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <8548c5f30906170636g3e14c068y9d72ae4cf86dc7e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com> 
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>
	<8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com> 
	<41139fcb0906170024t739c5cdfmfb53b2cc13164eda@mail.gmail.com> 
	<8548c5f30906170127y240ee981te1d036ad802501c7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5ead360a0906170345o14661eacs9f14c1c82456ad1d@mail.gmail.com> 
	<8548c5f30906170636g3e14c068y9d72ae4cf86dc7e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41139fcb0906170641k2255d61dp86b0966648430a29@mail.gmail.com>

> ?If you don't like s[::-1], then the closest would be
> ''.join([item for item in reversed(s)]), but that ain't close enough :)

No, the closest would be
"".join(reversed(s))

From srijayanth at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 15:44:39 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:14:39 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <41139fcb0906170641k2255d61dp86b0966648430a29@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com>
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>
	<8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<41139fcb0906170024t739c5cdfmfb53b2cc13164eda@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906170127y240ee981te1d036ad802501c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906170345o14661eacs9f14c1c82456ad1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906170636g3e14c068y9d72ae4cf86dc7e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<41139fcb0906170641k2255d61dp86b0966648430a29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906170644m6b09bdfdq75fdb3691cb56570@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Anand Chitipothu <anandology at gmail.com>wrote:

> >  If you don't like s[::-1], then the closest would be
> > ''.join([item for item in reversed(s)]), but that ain't close enough :)
>

I don't hate it enough to not use it. I am just saying it from a perspective
of readability I suppose. Coming from Ruby you get used to string methods(or
for that matter Java)

Jayanth
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From harish.mallipeddi at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 16:20:37 2009
From: harish.mallipeddi at gmail.com (Harish Mallipeddi)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:50:37 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906170644m6b09bdfdq75fdb3691cb56570@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com> 
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A37E51A.3080803@taupro.com>
	<8548c5f30906162329h68bbe967yca330f66a25b18c3@mail.gmail.com> 
	<41139fcb0906170024t739c5cdfmfb53b2cc13164eda@mail.gmail.com> 
	<8548c5f30906170127y240ee981te1d036ad802501c7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5ead360a0906170345o14661eacs9f14c1c82456ad1d@mail.gmail.com> 
	<8548c5f30906170636g3e14c068y9d72ae4cf86dc7e8@mail.gmail.com> 
	<41139fcb0906170641k2255d61dp86b0966648430a29@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5ead360a0906170644m6b09bdfdq75fdb3691cb56570@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e01b80590906170720w5f6ab675ka8047553363cf6b5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Srijayanth Sridhar <srijayanth at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Anand Chitipothu <anandology at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> >  If you don't like s[::-1], then the closest would be
>> > ''.join([item for item in reversed(s)]), but that ain't close enough :)
>>
>
> I don't hate it enough to not use it. I am just saying it from a
> perspective of readability I suppose. Coming from Ruby you get used to
> string methods(or for that matter Java)
>
> Jayanth
>
>
Well in Ruby:

1) Strings are mutable (Ruby has symbols which are essentially immutable
strings).
2) All built-in classes are open.

-- 
Harish Mallipeddi
http://blog.poundbang.in
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From sridhar.ratna at gmail.com  Thu Jun 18 04:44:12 2009
From: sridhar.ratna at gmail.com (Sridhar Ratnakumar)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:44:12 -0700
Subject: [BangPypers] which is better solution of the question
In-Reply-To: <41139fcb0906160935k26c1119n2edbc38b89b61d2e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50d982690906160650u5f55781dted45a6478644c40@mail.gmail.com> 
	<50d982690906160652x33e04650t62ac44141fab8202@mail.gmail.com> 
	<3e3294b70906160742k219708b7j98a221e7201c99e6@mail.gmail.com> 
	<3e3294b70906160858n1408ca31x500ec35dd43ec2d5@mail.gmail.com> 
	<41139fcb0906160935k26c1119n2edbc38b89b61d2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c73a13a0906171944g349236eaqe163b2d448c777f5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Anand Chitipothu<anandology at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The zip solution is succinct.
>>
>> Also, by the virtue of being a built-in function zip() should be
>> faster than the second approach.
>
> Complexity of first solution is O(n)

> values, items = list(zip(*sorted(zip(values,items), reverse=True)))

Must be O(n lg n) .. due to the use of 'sorted(...)'

From srijayanth at gmail.com  Thu Jun 18 11:54:40 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:24:40 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Testing for documentation as a release criterion
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906180254j5eaa92c7sefe5a6a3ac374101@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am currently thinking about enforcing the following standard for a small
demo project that might evolve into something larger pending approval(which
was why the request for training programmes).

Every module, every class and every function should have documentation. To
enforce this, I write a unit test that basically does something as follows:

undocumented = [obj for obj in dir(module) if obj.__doc__ == None]
assertEqual (undocumented, [])

Of course, I'd have to make it recursive for all classes defined in module
etc. I just wanted to know what people thought of this and whether somebody
else has experiences with such a standard being enforced and what they think
the pros/cons might be?

Thank you,

Jayanth
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From noufal at gmail.com  Thu Jun 18 12:07:21 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:37:21 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Testing for documentation as a release criterion
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906180254j5eaa92c7sefe5a6a3ac374101@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5ead360a0906180254j5eaa92c7sefe5a6a3ac374101@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906180307u70b25096g239d5d5baf7f4469@mail.gmail.com>

I'm doing something similar for a nascent project at my workplace. My
plan was to enforce some kind of structure as well. I'm not familar
enough with Restructured Text and any of the other Python text
processing libraries so I'm not sure what to do yet. You could perhaps
also mandate an example for all API functions and then test then with
doctest.

As a concept, I think it's swell.

From vsapre80 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 18 16:47:39 2009
From: vsapre80 at gmail.com (Vishal)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:17:39 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Testing for documentation as a release criterion
In-Reply-To: <9963e56e0906180307u70b25096g239d5d5baf7f4469@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5ead360a0906180254j5eaa92c7sefe5a6a3ac374101@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906180307u70b25096g239d5d5baf7f4469@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a13a3b480906180747q381f8095ma73aa53a01e79344@mail.gmail.com>

If you run PyLint on any Python file...it gives you documentation percentage
of functions, methods, class, modules in your code tree.
it prints that out as a table. if you can scrap that info from the resulting
file...that should help as well...
basically it should be 100% for all the above..if not, someone needs to
complete the documentation.

http://www.logilab.org/857

<http://www.logilab.org/857>please do remember that, PyLint depends on two
more packages from logilab.
useslogilab-astng <http://www.logilab.org/project/logilab-astng>,
logilab-common <http://www.logilab.org/project/logilab-common>


Hope this might be of some help.

As far as running tests are concerned:
It would be better if a test can get the __doc__ string, and search for
specific things in that string..such as 'input', 'output', 'description' and
make sure that these are not empty. How about enforcing that these
documentation strings should follow YAML format :))
that should make it so much easier to examine them.

__doc__ should be:
"""
- description:
   blah, blah, blah
- Inputs:
   blah, blah, blah
- output:
   blah, blah, blah
"""

Best regards,
Vishal Sapre

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Noufal Ibrahim <noufal at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm doing something similar for a nascent project at my workplace. My
> plan was to enforce some kind of structure as well. I'm not familar
> enough with Restructured Text and any of the other Python text
> processing libraries so I'm not sure what to do yet. You could perhaps
> also mandate an example for all API functions and then test then with
> doctest.
>
> As a concept, I think it's swell.
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
Thanks and best regards,
Vishal Sapre

---

"So say...Day by day, in every way, I am getting better, better and better
!!!"
"A Strong and Positive attitude creates more miracles than anything else.
Because...Life is 10% how you make it, and 90% how you take it"
"Diamond is another piece of coal that did well under pressure?
"Happiness keeps u Sweet, Trials keep u Strong,
Sorrow keeps u Human, Failure Keeps u Humble,
Success keeps u Glowing, But only God Keeps u Going.....Keep Going....."
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From srijayanth at gmail.com  Thu Jun 18 17:17:33 2009
From: srijayanth at gmail.com (Srijayanth Sridhar)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:47:33 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Testing for documentation as a release criterion
In-Reply-To: <a13a3b480906180747q381f8095ma73aa53a01e79344@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5ead360a0906180254j5eaa92c7sefe5a6a3ac374101@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906180307u70b25096g239d5d5baf7f4469@mail.gmail.com>
	<a13a3b480906180747q381f8095ma73aa53a01e79344@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ead360a0906180817j70f89c0bu99671eb60c13118f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Vishal <vsapre80 at gmail.com> wrote:

> If you run PyLint on any Python file...it gives you documentation
> percentage of functions, methods, class, modules in your code tree.
> it prints that out as a table. if you can scrap that info from the
> resulting file...that should help as well...
> basically it should be 100% for all the above..if not, someone needs to
> complete the documentation.
>
> http://www.logilab.org/857
>
>  <http://www.logilab.org/857>please do remember that, PyLint depends on
> two more packages from logilab.
> uses logilab-astng <http://www.logilab.org/project/logilab-astng>,
> logilab-common <http://www.logilab.org/project/logilab-common>
>
>
> Hope this might be of some help.
>

PyLint seems useful, however...


>
> As far as running tests are concerned:
> It would be better if a test can get the __doc__ string, and search for
> specific things in that string..such as 'input', 'output', 'description' and
> make sure that these are not empty. How about enforcing that these
> documentation strings should follow YAML format :))
> that should make it so much easier to examine them.
>
> __doc__ should be:
> """
> - description:
>    blah, blah, blah
> - Inputs:
>    blah, blah, blah
> - output:
>    blah, blah, blah
> """
>


..this is nicer since I can plug yaml right into PyYaml.

Very nice suggestion.

Thank you,

Jayanth
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From vsapre80 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 18 19:38:34 2009
From: vsapre80 at gmail.com (Vishal)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:08:34 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Testing for documentation as a release criterion
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906180817j70f89c0bu99671eb60c13118f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5ead360a0906180254j5eaa92c7sefe5a6a3ac374101@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906180307u70b25096g239d5d5baf7f4469@mail.gmail.com>
	<a13a3b480906180747q381f8095ma73aa53a01e79344@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906180817j70f89c0bu99671eb60c13118f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a13a3b480906181038w5739839av9f66fdb4e962f880@mail.gmail.com>

Nice to now you felt good on this suggestion..it just occurred sort of :)my
experience with YAML says that, its best to use:
load from syck and dump from yaml.
if you are not going to dump YAML, and not going to work on complex YAML
stuff...use syck for loading....you'll be much happier with that.

Best of Luck...
Vishal

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Srijayanth Sridhar <srijayanth at gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Vishal <vsapre80 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you run PyLint on any Python file...it gives you documentation
>> percentage of functions, methods, class, modules in your code tree.
>> it prints that out as a table. if you can scrap that info from the
>> resulting file...that should help as well...
>> basically it should be 100% for all the above..if not, someone needs to
>> complete the documentation.
>>
>> http://www.logilab.org/857
>>
>>  <http://www.logilab.org/857>please do remember that, PyLint depends on
>> two more packages from logilab.
>> uses logilab-astng <http://www.logilab.org/project/logilab-astng>,
>> logilab-common <http://www.logilab.org/project/logilab-common>
>>
>>
>> Hope this might be of some help.
>>
>
> PyLint seems useful, however...
>
>
>>
>> As far as running tests are concerned:
>> It would be better if a test can get the __doc__ string, and search for
>> specific things in that string..such as 'input', 'output', 'description' and
>> make sure that these are not empty. How about enforcing that these
>> documentation strings should follow YAML format :))
>> that should make it so much easier to examine them.
>>
>> __doc__ should be:
>> """
>> - description:
>>    blah, blah, blah
>> - Inputs:
>>    blah, blah, blah
>> - output:
>>    blah, blah, blah
>> """
>>
>
>
> ..this is nicer since I can plug yaml right into PyYaml.
>
> Very nice suggestion.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jayanth
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
Thanks and best regards,
Vishal Sapre

---

"So say...Day by day, in every way, I am getting better, better and better
!!!"
"A Strong and Positive attitude creates more miracles than anything else.
Because...Life is 10% how you make it, and 90% how you take it"
"Diamond is another piece of coal that did well under pressure?
"Happiness keeps u Sweet, Trials keep u Strong,
Sorrow keeps u Human, Failure Keeps u Humble,
Success keeps u Glowing, But only God Keeps u Going.....Keep Going....."
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From learningpython at aol.com  Mon Jun 22 13:35:35 2009
From: learningpython at aol.com (learningpython)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BangPypers]  calling instance of the other class.
Message-ID: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>


Dear Python experts,

Please can you help in a following scenario..
I have some classes each for a Protocol Data Unit which you could consider
as a structures of elements 
example
class ex1:
class usr_mac(MAC_PDU):
    '''
    Group Voice Channel User
    '''
    def __init__(self):
        self.protectFlag = BV.Bit1.new()
        self.reserved = BV.Bit1.new()
        self.flco =  BV.Bit6.new()
        self.grpAddr = BV.Bit24.new()
        self.srcAddr = BV.Bit24.new()
        self.order = ['protectFlag', 
                      'reserved', 
                      'flco', 
                      'grpAddr', 
                      'srcAddr']

Now i have a another message which i need to create similar but now it
contains the above class instance as one of the members.

Please can you tell me how to pass instance of above class as a member of
the new message created in similar lines with one of the elements is the
complete data above (instance of above class). 

I am encapsulating above message in a transport layer message.
2. Now similarly, i would like given a choice to choose the instance of
other class as the i would like to pass  in other instance of class
similarly. 

Your kind help will be greatly appreciated. Please let me know if there are
clarifications i can give, I am posting this in a hurry. I am sure there
could be questions.

Thanks in advance
anand
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/calling-instance-of-the-other-class.-tp24145716p24145716.html
Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From tnhashmi at gmail.com  Mon Jun 22 13:57:06 2009
From: tnhashmi at gmail.com (Tahir Hashmi)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:27:06 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] [JOBS] Opening for Tech Lead at weRead
Message-ID: <d800df150906220457h7026461aic5c748c64b7e1599@mail.gmail.com>

Hi

weRead (http://www.weread.com) is the world's largest social book
discovery site in the world with its presence on top Social Networks
including Facebook, Orkut, MySpace and Yahoo!, among others.

We have some really exciting tasks cut for us as we challenge
ourselves to get the attention of each and every book lover in the
world and then some. To accomplish that, we need some solid
engineering talent to add to our small but really smart team of
engineers.

If you have strong CS fundamentals, 7+ years of engineering experience
and have delivered on building highly scalable applications for the
web, do send in your resume to careers at weread.com. Of course, Python
programming skills would be a valuable asset!

Please visit http://weread.com/current_openings.php for more details
regarding the open position.

Thanks

-- 
Tahir Hashmi

We, the rest of humanity, wish GNU luck and Godspeed

From orsenthil at gmail.com  Mon Jun 22 15:11:14 2009
From: orsenthil at gmail.com (Senthil Kumaran)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:41:14 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 04:35:35AM -0700, learningpython wrote:

> Please can you tell me how to pass instance of above class as a member of
> the new message created in similar lines with one of the elements is the
> complete data above (instance of above class). 
> 
> I am encapsulating above message in a transport layer message.
> 2. Now similarly, i would like given a choice to choose the instance of
> other class as the i would like to pass  in other instance of class
> similarly. 

I am totally confused by the description. :(

If you still not very comfortable with Class terminologies in Python,
I would suggest you read any basic book (2-3 hours on the topic  would be
enough)  and perhaps you may find, what you are trying to do is
easy?



-- 
Senthil
I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
		-- Thomas Jefferson

From vnbang2003 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 22 15:44:21 2009
From: vnbang2003 at yahoo.com (VIJAY KUMAR)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:14:21 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [BangPypers] Django connection problem
Message-ID: <367629.70851.qm@web95312.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Hi 
?????? Need a help for below error.
?????? ??? from django.contrib.auth.models import User
????????????? File "c:\python26\lib\site-packages\django-1.0.2_final-?????? py2.6.egg\django\contrib\auth\models.py", line 3, in <module>
?????????? from django.db import models
????????? ? File "c:\python26\lib\site-packages\django-1.0.2_final-py2.6.egg\django\db\models\__init__.py", line 3, in <module>
??????? ??? from django.db import connection
???????? ImportError: cannot import name connection
?
??when i looked in django.db there is no module by name connection. Can some one help to know more on this problem and how can i overcome this.
?
With Thanks
VIjay 
?

?


      Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://cricket.yahoo.com
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From gora at srijan.in  Mon Jun 22 18:19:28 2009
From: gora at srijan.in (Gora Mohanty)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:49:28 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Django connection problem
In-Reply-To: <367629.70851.qm@web95312.mail.in2.yahoo.com>
References: <367629.70851.qm@web95312.mail.in2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090622214928.209a7d3c@anubis>

On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:14:21 +0530 (IST)
VIJAY KUMAR <vnbang2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi 
> ?????? Need a help for below error.
> ?????? ??? from django.contrib.auth.models import User
> ????????????? File "c:\python26\lib\site-packages\django-1.0.2_final-?????? py2.6.egg\django\contrib\auth\models.py", line 3, in <module>
> ?????????? from django.db import models
> ????????? ? File "c:\python26\lib\site-packages\django-1.0.2_final-py2.6.egg\django\db\models\__init__.py", line 3, in <module>
> ??????? ??? from django.db import connection
> ???????? ImportError: cannot import name connection

What are you doing when you get this error.

> ?
> ??when i looked in django.db there is no module by name connection. Can some one help to know more on this problem and how can i overcome this.
[...]

There is definitely a "connection" variable in django/db/__init.py__
which is where django/db/models/__init.py__ is importing from.

I suspect that this is some other issue, maybe a problem with
connecting to the database. What database are you using? Can
you connect to the database, using some other tool, but with
the same username/password as in Django's settings.py?

Regards,
Gora

From learningpython at aol.com  Mon Jun 22 22:32:39 2009
From: learningpython at aol.com (learningpython)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:32:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
Message-ID: <24154873.post@talk.nabble.com>


Sorry Senthil and all,
I am sure, it's pretty easy but don't i am not able to catch it. In C, i
just pass the & of the another structure in the structure element, some
thing close. 

Here is what i do .. a class is defined as mentioned, now this class is
element of another class
class Send_Msg_req(msg):
     def __init__(self):
       self.usr_mac =< Earlier class defined > 
       self.msgtype = <blah>
       self.msgsize = <blah>
       self.order = ['usr_mac', 
                      'msgtype ',
                       'msgsize ']

Now i like your expertize in giving me tips so that i have to declare and
keep sending above this message over serial port, but each time with
different class.
I hope i made it bit more clear. Sorry for the confusion.


Senthil Kumaran-6 wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 04:35:35AM -0700, learningpython wrote:
> 
>> Please can you tell me how to pass instance of above class as a member of
>> the new message created in similar lines with one of the elements is the
>> complete data above (instance of above class). 
>> 
>> I am encapsulating above message in a transport layer message.
>> 2. Now similarly, i would like given a choice to choose the instance of
>> other class as the i would like to pass  in other instance of class
>> similarly. 
> 
> I am totally confused by the description. :(
> 
> If you still not very comfortable with Class terminologies in Python,
> I would suggest you read any basic book (2-3 hours on the topic  would be
> enough)  and perhaps you may find, what you are trying to do is
> easy?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Senthil
> I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
> 		-- Thomas Jefferson
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/calling-instance-of-the-other-class.-tp24145716p24154873.html
Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From vnbang2003 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 23 05:50:04 2009
From: vnbang2003 at yahoo.com (VIJAY KUMAR)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:20:04 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [BangPypers] Django connection problem
Message-ID: <535146.73198.qm@web95305.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Hi,
?????????? Am pressently using sqlite .
?????????? The problem is in the django\db\__init__.py where it is importing connection module
??????????? from django.db import connection


?

Thanks
Vijay 


--- On Mon, 22/6/09, Gora Mohanty <gora at srijan.in> wrote:


From: Gora Mohanty <gora at srijan.in>
Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Django connection problem
To: bangpypers at python.org
Date: Monday, 22 June, 2009, 9:49 PM


On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:14:21 +0530 (IST)
VIJAY KUMAR <vnbang2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi 
> ?????? Need a help for below error.
> ?????? ??? from django.contrib.auth.models import User
> ????????????? File "c:\python26\lib\site-packages\django-1.0.2_final-?????? py2.6.egg\django\contrib\auth\models.py", line 3, in <module>
> ?????????? from django.db import models
> ????????? ? File "c:\python26\lib\site-packages\django-1.0.2_final-py2.6.egg\django\db\models\__init__.py", line 3, in <module>
> ??????? ??? from django.db import connection
> ???????? ImportError: cannot import name connection

What are you doing when you get this error.

> ?
> ??when i looked in django.db there is no module by name connection. Can some one help to know more on this problem and how can i overcome this.
[...]

There is definitely a "connection" variable in django/db/__init.py__
which is where django/db/models/__init.py__ is importing from.

I suspect that this is some other issue, maybe a problem with
connecting to the database. What database are you using? Can
you connect to the database, using some other tool, but with
the same username/password as in Django's settings.py?

Regards,
Gora
_______________________________________________
BangPypers mailing list
BangPypers at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers



      ICC World Twenty20 England &#39;09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com
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From praveen.python.plone at gmail.com  Tue Jun 23 09:35:43 2009
From: praveen.python.plone at gmail.com (Praveen Kumar)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:05:43 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Django connection problem
In-Reply-To: <535146.73198.qm@web95305.mail.in2.yahoo.com>
References: <535146.73198.qm@web95305.mail.in2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6305ec600906230035i70f27388n3f35f5d8f496cff2@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, it seems there is something wrong in your django installation.. you can
check with import django and try with django shell.

Thanks
Praveen

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:20 AM, VIJAY KUMAR <vnbang2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>            Am pressently using sqlite .
>            The problem is in the django\db\__init__.py where it is
> importing connection module
>             from django.db import connection
>
>
>
>  Thanks
> Vijay
>
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 22/6/09, Gora Mohanty <gora at srijan.in>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Gora Mohanty <gora at srijan.in>
> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Django connection problem
> To: bangpypers at python.org
> Date: Monday, 22 June, 2009, 9:49 PM
>
>
> On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:14:21 +0530 (IST)
> VIJAY KUMAR <vnbang2003 at yahoo.com<http://in.mc953.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vnbang2003 at yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >        Need a help for below error.
> >            from django.contrib.auth.models import User
> >               File
> "c:\python26\lib\site-packages\django-1.0.2_final-
> py2.6.egg\django\contrib\auth\models.py", line 3, in <module>
> >            from django.db import models
> >             File
> "c:\python26\lib\site-packages\django-1.0.2_final-py2.6.egg\django\db\models\__init__.py",
> line 3, in <module>
> >             from django.db import connection
> >          ImportError: cannot import name connection
>
> What are you doing when you get this error.
>
> >
> >   when i looked in django.db there is no module by name connection. Can
> some one help to know more on this problem and how can i overcome this.
> [...]
>
> There is definitely a "connection" variable in django/db/__init.py__
> which is where django/db/models/__init.py__ is importing from.
>
> I suspect that this is some other issue, maybe a problem with
> connecting to the database. What database are you using? Can
> you connect to the database, using some other tool, but with
> the same username/password as in Django's settings.py?
>
> Regards,
> Gora
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org<http://in.mc953.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BangPypers at python.org>
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now!<http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_cricket_1/*http://cricket.yahoo.com>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>


-- 
Praveen Kumar
+91 9739854134
http://praveensunsetpoint.wordpress.com
Bangalore
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From harpreetsingh101 at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 23 10:13:00 2009
From: harpreetsingh101 at hotmail.com (Harpreet)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:43:00 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Turbogears Pydev debugging in Eclipse
In-Reply-To: <49A7BECC.9090700@gmail.com>
References: <6305ec600902262357h17e08b40s2010d1d16a06e052@mail.gmail.com>	<BLU108-W39D2583202AF39C6B2163989AA0@phx.gbl>
	<49A7BECC.9090700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU108-DS21933E95E99707DF0268589360@phx.gbl>



-----Original Message-----
From: bangpypers-bounces+harpreetsingh101=hotmail.com at python.org
[mailto:bangpypers-bounces+harpreetsingh101=hotmail.com at python.org] On
Behalf Of Parthan SR
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:52 PM
To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India
Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Turbogears Pydev debugging in Eclipse

Harpreet Singh wrote:
> Hi,
> I come from the .Net/visual studio environment and i am pretty new to 
> the Turbogears 1.0.4.4 and/or python world.
> I would like to know if pydev in Eclipse 3.2 supports breakpoint 
> debugging of a Turbogears web application?
> If yes, this would mean setting a break point in the .py file and 
> doing a step through/step into of the code, while the web page is 
> displayed in the browser. Am i correct?

I am not sure how to do it in an IDE (for the fact I never used anything 
other than Emacs) but you should still be able to make use of pdb. It 
might not be as good as break point function you are looking for, but 
yes it allows you to step through the code (from the point you call 
pdb.set_trace()) in an web app. I have used it with Django and Pylons.

-- 
With Regards,
Parthan SR "technofreak"

GPG Key     2FF01026
Fingerprint 5707 ECBD 8D8D 8E6E 28F8  DFA5 938B D861 2FF0 1026
Weblog      http://blog.technofreak.in

_______________________________________________
BangPypers mailing list
BangPypers at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
_______________________________________________

Figured out, that it is possible to set break points, step through and
debug. Some of the things were not very obvious.
Others who face problems could check up this link:

http://rowsandcolumns.blogspot.com/2009/06/turbogears-debugging-in-eclipse.h
tml

I have tried to put down some things to check up.

Regards,
Harpreet


From jeff at taupro.com  Tue Jun 23 10:50:42 2009
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 03:50:42 -0500
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <24154873.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>	<20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<24154873.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>

learningpython wrote:
> Sorry Senthil and all,
> I am sure, it's pretty easy but don't i am not able to catch it. In C, i
> just pass the & of the another structure in the structure element, some
> thing close.

The equivalent to the & operator in C is just an object reference in Python.

> class Send_Msg_req(msg):
>      def __init__(self):
>        self.usr_mac =< Earlier class defined > 
>        self.msgtype = <blah>
>        self.msgsize = <blah>
>        self.order = ['usr_mac', 
>                       'msgtype ',
>                        'msgsize ']

so the line becomes just:

  self.usr.mac = usr_mac()

where you declared usr_mac as a class in your prior email.  If the
usr_mac() call needs arguments, provide them in the __init__ for
Send_MSG_req and pass them through:

  class Send_Msg_req(msg):
      def __init__(self, a, b):
          self.usr_mac = usr_mac(a, b)
          self.msgtype = BV.Bit24.new()

You haven't mentioned it but from here you'll need a flattener.  From
your code I presume you have the idea for one already, in that:

>        self.msgtype = <blah>
>        self.msgsize = <blah>
>        self.order = ['usr_mac',
>                       'msgtype ',
>                        'msgsize ']

at some point you have a method defined for the base 'msg' class that
uses the self.order list to construct the actual bitstream going out the
serial port from the various object attributes.  So your BV.Bit24 class
has some method that gives you back the 24-bits that make it up.  The
method that walks self.order and returns the raw bits is a flattener.

Now with the declaring of self.usr_mac referencing an earlier class, you
just need to extend the idea of a flattener a bit further.  So when you
call:

  msg = Send_Msg_req(MSG_A, 34)
  serial.output(msg.flatten())

that .flatten method, upon encountering the self.usr_mac attribute,
calls the .flatten method of the usr_mac class and merges those bits
into the stream it is building for the Send_Msg_req class.

This is why it is called a flattener -- it walks a tree of msg fragments
and constructs a flat sequence of bits making up a single message.

Another example of the use of a flattener is the STAN DOM used in the
Nevow templating module used with the Twisted web framework.

  http://www.kieranholland.com/code/documentation/nevow-stan/

It takes an object graph of nested lists and attributes and returns a
flat string of HTML.  It goes a bit further in that it has an extensible
registry of adapters for teaching the system to handle new kinds of
object graph nodes.

-Jeff

From orsenthil at gmail.com  Tue Jun 23 18:05:30 2009
From: orsenthil at gmail.com (Senthil Kumaran)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:35:30 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<24154873.post@talk.nabble.com> <4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <20090623160529.GA4808@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 03:50:42AM -0500, Jeff Rush wrote:
> > just pass the & of the another structure in the structure element, some
> > thing close.
> 
> The equivalent to the & operator in C is just an object reference in Python.
> 

Yes, the Original Poster (learningpython):

When you have:

class MyClass:
        def __init__(self):
                self.attr1 = 'Hello'

Foo = MyClass
Obj = Foo()
print Obj.attr1 

This will show that class was assigned using the reference.

Original Poster again, just try to understand this session

>>> class MyClass1:
...     def __init__(self):
...             self.attr1 = 'Hello'
... 
>>> class MyClass2:
...     def __init__(self):
...             self.attr2 = MyClass1()
... 
>>> obj = MyClass2()
>>> print obj.attr2
<__main__.MyClass1 instance at 0x7fe2061b1488>
>>> print obj.attr2.attr1
Hello
>>> 


I hope you have a bit of clarity now.


Jeff: you seem to have got what he was trying to do with message
sending. Is this some standard way over serial port, as you went
upto the mention or flatteners.

But, exposing the learner to twisted and flatteners would be bit too
much of a high dose IMHO.

-- 
Senthil
<Overfiend> the kind of landscape that laughs at "AWD" vehicles and
            sends them tumbling into ravines

From learningpython at aol.com  Tue Jun 23 23:00:47 2009
From: learningpython at aol.com (learningpython)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:00:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<24154873.post@talk.nabble.com> <4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <24174373.post@talk.nabble.com>


Thank you Jeff, Thanks a ton. 
Yes also about the flatnner. I am using the library given already. I am
asked to use a pack command which i presume is what you try to explain me. I
am long way to go, learning at a very slow pace. Maybe i should speed up of
this delivery. The pack i am using is very similar to concatenation
actually. Like i was explained example: "11100" +"1111"  = 111001111 will be
sent on serial. Please can you confirm me, python sends the big endian
model. I mean MSB first. Thank you again Jeff.


Jeff Rush wrote:
> 
> learningpython wrote:
>> Sorry Senthil and all,
>> I am sure, it's pretty easy but don't i am not able to catch it. In C, i
>> just pass the & of the another structure in the structure element, some
>> thing close.
> 
> The equivalent to the & operator in C is just an object reference in
> Python.
> 
>> class Send_Msg_req(msg):
>>      def __init__(self):
>>        self.usr_mac =< Earlier class defined > 
>>        self.msgtype = <blah>
>>        self.msgsize = <blah>
>>        self.order = ['usr_mac', 
>>                       'msgtype ',
>>                        'msgsize ']
> 
> so the line becomes just:
> 
>   self.usr.mac = usr_mac()
> 
> where you declared usr_mac as a class in your prior email.  If the
> usr_mac() call needs arguments, provide them in the __init__ for
> Send_MSG_req and pass them through:
> 
>   class Send_Msg_req(msg):
>       def __init__(self, a, b):
>           self.usr_mac = usr_mac(a, b)
>           self.msgtype = BV.Bit24.new()
> 
> You haven't mentioned it but from here you'll need a flattener.  From
> your code I presume you have the idea for one already, in that:
> 
>>        self.msgtype = <blah>
>>        self.msgsize = <blah>
>>        self.order = ['usr_mac',
>>                       'msgtype ',
>>                        'msgsize ']
> 
> at some point you have a method defined for the base 'msg' class that
> uses the self.order list to construct the actual bitstream going out the
> serial port from the various object attributes.  So your BV.Bit24 class
> has some method that gives you back the 24-bits that make it up.  The
> method that walks self.order and returns the raw bits is a flattener.
> 
> Now with the declaring of self.usr_mac referencing an earlier class, you
> just need to extend the idea of a flattener a bit further.  So when you
> call:
> 
>   msg = Send_Msg_req(MSG_A, 34)
>   serial.output(msg.flatten())
> 
> that .flatten method, upon encountering the self.usr_mac attribute,
> calls the .flatten method of the usr_mac class and merges those bits
> into the stream it is building for the Send_Msg_req class.
> 
> This is why it is called a flattener -- it walks a tree of msg fragments
> and constructs a flat sequence of bits making up a single message.
> 
> Another example of the use of a flattener is the STAN DOM used in the
> Nevow templating module used with the Twisted web framework.
> 
>   http://www.kieranholland.com/code/documentation/nevow-stan/
> 
> It takes an object graph of nested lists and attributes and returns a
> flat string of HTML.  It goes a bit further in that it has an extensible
> registry of adapters for teaching the system to handle new kinds of
> object graph nodes.
> 
> -Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/calling-instance-of-the-other-class.-tp24145716p24174373.html
Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From learningpython at aol.com  Tue Jun 23 23:07:31 2009
From: learningpython at aol.com (learningpython)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:07:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <20090623160529.GA4808@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<24154873.post@talk.nabble.com> <4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>
	<20090623160529.GA4808@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
Message-ID: <24174494.post@talk.nabble.com>


Thank you Senthil. 

It's been a learning exp for me.. I must pace up, i promise if given
continued opportunity to code, i will learn soon. This is a running project,
so the flattner is very much needed. I hope i learn more.
Actually created a system wherein later i can use it at ease to send various
other instances of class in the same way depending on context. How about i
create each of the them and assign a name, like #define and just call them
in scripts. Please any one feel free to suggest any better way of doing.

With Thanks
Anand

Senthil Kumaran-6 wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 03:50:42AM -0500, Jeff Rush wrote:
>> > just pass the & of the another structure in the structure element, some
>> > thing close.
>> 
>> The equivalent to the & operator in C is just an object reference in
>> Python.
>> 
> 
> Yes, the Original Poster (learningpython):
> 
> When you have:
> 
> class MyClass:
>         def __init__(self):
>                 self.attr1 = 'Hello'
> 
> Foo = MyClass
> Obj = Foo()
> print Obj.attr1 
> 
> This will show that class was assigned using the reference.
> 
> Original Poster again, just try to understand this session
> 
>>>> class MyClass1:
> ...     def __init__(self):
> ...             self.attr1 = 'Hello'
> ... 
>>>> class MyClass2:
> ...     def __init__(self):
> ...             self.attr2 = MyClass1()
> ... 
>>>> obj = MyClass2()
>>>> print obj.attr2
> <__main__.MyClass1 instance at 0x7fe2061b1488>
>>>> print obj.attr2.attr1
> Hello
>>>> 
> 
> 
> I hope you have a bit of clarity now.
> 
> 
> Jeff: you seem to have got what he was trying to do with message
> sending. Is this some standard way over serial port, as you went
> upto the mention or flatteners.
> 
> But, exposing the learner to twisted and flatteners would be bit too
> much of a high dose IMHO.
> 
> -- 
> Senthil
> <Overfiend> the kind of landscape that laughs at "AWD" vehicles and
>             sends them tumbling into ravines
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/calling-instance-of-the-other-class.-tp24145716p24174494.html
Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From learningpython at aol.com  Wed Jun 24 01:16:34 2009
From: learningpython at aol.com (learningpython)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:16:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<24154873.post@talk.nabble.com> <4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <24176174.post@talk.nabble.com>


Hi Jeff,
Can i ask you a related question. Long shot ..
but since you have good idea of area i am working ( which is communications,
sending, decoding, encoding) data over a serial interface. 
I have a problem, i am facing.. Like in ASN format..
I have a Data Unit ( am defining a class for each )

1. msg type  ( 8 bits )
2. Identity(8 bits)
3. ADESC ( 8 bits)
4. Address ( Now this depends on value of ADESC ) 
so the other elements, i am allocating the memory, but how can i allocate
Address, the number of fields ( i mean size) depends on the ASESC value so
it could be any value .. how can i say reserve memory .

The only idea i get is to have a function within the class of this
definition where, i read the ADESC and then allocate value in address. Any
other good ideas, please can you let me know. I really appreciate your
links.


Jeff Rush wrote:
> 
> learningpython wrote:
>> Sorry Senthil and all,
>> I am sure, it's pretty easy but don't i am not able to catch it. In C, i
>> just pass the & of the another structure in the structure element, some
>> thing close.
> 
> The equivalent to the & operator in C is just an object reference in
> Python.
> 
>> class Send_Msg_req(msg):
>>      def __init__(self):
>>        self.usr_mac =< Earlier class defined > 
>>        self.msgtype = <blah>
>>        self.msgsize = <blah>
>>        self.order = ['usr_mac', 
>>                       'msgtype ',
>>                        'msgsize ']
> 
> so the line becomes just:
> 
>   self.usr.mac = usr_mac()
> 
> where you declared usr_mac as a class in your prior email.  If the
> usr_mac() call needs arguments, provide them in the __init__ for
> Send_MSG_req and pass them through:
> 
>   class Send_Msg_req(msg):
>       def __init__(self, a, b):
>           self.usr_mac = usr_mac(a, b)
>           self.msgtype = BV.Bit24.new()
> 
> You haven't mentioned it but from here you'll need a flattener.  From
> your code I presume you have the idea for one already, in that:
> 
>>        self.msgtype = <blah>
>>        self.msgsize = <blah>
>>        self.order = ['usr_mac',
>>                       'msgtype ',
>>                        'msgsize ']
> 
> at some point you have a method defined for the base 'msg' class that
> uses the self.order list to construct the actual bitstream going out the
> serial port from the various object attributes.  So your BV.Bit24 class
> has some method that gives you back the 24-bits that make it up.  The
> method that walks self.order and returns the raw bits is a flattener.
> 
> Now with the declaring of self.usr_mac referencing an earlier class, you
> just need to extend the idea of a flattener a bit further.  So when you
> call:
> 
>   msg = Send_Msg_req(MSG_A, 34)
>   serial.output(msg.flatten())
> 
> that .flatten method, upon encountering the self.usr_mac attribute,
> calls the .flatten method of the usr_mac class and merges those bits
> into the stream it is building for the Send_Msg_req class.
> 
> This is why it is called a flattener -- it walks a tree of msg fragments
> and constructs a flat sequence of bits making up a single message.
> 
> Another example of the use of a flattener is the STAN DOM used in the
> Nevow templating module used with the Twisted web framework.
> 
>   http://www.kieranholland.com/code/documentation/nevow-stan/
> 
> It takes an object graph of nested lists and attributes and returns a
> flat string of HTML.  It goes a bit further in that it has an extensible
> registry of adapters for teaching the system to handle new kinds of
> object graph nodes.
> 
> -Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/calling-instance-of-the-other-class.-tp24145716p24176174.html
Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From jeff at taupro.com  Wed Jun 24 04:05:29 2009
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:05:29 -0500
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <20090623160529.GA4808@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>	<20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>	<24154873.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>
	<20090623160529.GA4808@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
Message-ID: <4A4189E9.4020007@taupro.com>

Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 03:50:42AM -0500, Jeff Rush wrote:
>>> just pass the & of the another structure in the structure element, some
> 
> Jeff: you seem to have got what he was trying to do with message
> sending. Is this some standard way over serial port, as you went
> upto the mention or flatteners.

Flattening is not specific to message sending, just data structures in
general.  Over the years I have developed several protocol applications,
some serial I/O, some network packets and I recognized what he trying to
do.  The principles of layering your message fragments so you deal with
one abstraction at a time is common.  It is also a fascinating area in
which to use Python's introspection and metadata capabilities to greatly
simplify something that is rather complicated when written in a
procedural language like C.  See my next email for an example.


> But, exposing the learner to twisted and flatteners would be bit too
> much of a high dose IMHO.

You're probably right but I thought the docs for STAN were well-written
and would be useful reading at least.  STAN itself is actually a small
part of Twisted, about 25 KB of source.  I just happened to be reading
the source earlier this week as I was trying to use it as an alternative
template language with the Grok web framework.  It won't just drop into
Grok because of Twisted's way of using zope.interface and their own
adapter registry.  Therefore I'm working to split STAN out as a separate
egg usable with Grok.  I wish the Twisted folk would cooperate better
with the setuptools world.

-Jeff

From jeff at taupro.com  Wed Jun 24 04:12:33 2009
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:12:33 -0500
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <24176174.post@talk.nabble.com>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>	<20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>	<24154873.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<4A409762.1080005@taupro.com> <24176174.post@talk.nabble.com>
Message-ID: <4A418B91.3010206@taupro.com>

learningpython wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> Can i ask you a related question. Long shot ..
> but since you have good idea of area i am working ( which is communications,
> sending, decoding, encoding) data over a serial interface. 
> I have a problem, i am facing.. Like in ASN format..
> I have a Data Unit ( am defining a class for each )
> 
> 1. msg type  ( 8 bits )
> 2. Identity(8 bits)
> 3. ADESC ( 8 bits)
> 4. Address ( Now this depends on value of ADESC ) 
> so the other elements, i am allocating the memory, but how can i allocate
> Address, the number of fields ( i mean size) depends on the ASESC value so
> it could be any value .. how can i say reserve memory .
> 
> The only idea i get is to have a function within the class of this
> definition where, i read the ADESC and then allocate value in address. Any
> other good ideas, please can you let me know. I really appreciate your
> links.

The important module for bit manipulation in Python in the struct
module.  If you haven't come across it before, you should read the docs.
 It is part of the Python standard library.

  http://docs.python.org/library/struct.html

Once you've done that, check out this cool module that does much of what
you are trying to do.  Fair warning though, it uses very advanced Python
coding including metaclasses.  You'll learn a lot by carefully figuring
out how it does what it does.  For example it avoids the need for a
self.order list to sequence the fields of a class definition in a rather
clever fashion.

  http://code.activestate.com/recipes/498149/

I'm probably going to do a source code walkthrough of this module with
the Dallas usergroup this Saturday because of its interesting parts.

-Jeff


From abpillai at gmail.com  Wed Jun 24 09:15:52 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:45:52 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <4A418B91.3010206@taupro.com>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<24154873.post@talk.nabble.com> <4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>
	<24176174.post@talk.nabble.com> <4A418B91.3010206@taupro.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906240015t10f5d57rd595661c2e92a930@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:

> learningpython wrote:
> > Hi Jeff,
> > Can i ask you a related question. Long shot ..
> > but since you have good idea of area i am working ( which is
> communications,
> > sending, decoding, encoding) data over a serial interface.
> > I have a problem, i am facing.. Like in ASN format..
> > I have a Data Unit ( am defining a class for each )
> >
> > 1. msg type  ( 8 bits )
> > 2. Identity(8 bits)
> > 3. ADESC ( 8 bits)
> > 4. Address ( Now this depends on value of ADESC )
> > so the other elements, i am allocating the memory, but how can i allocate
> > Address, the number of fields ( i mean size) depends on the ASESC value
> so
> > it could be any value .. how can i say reserve memory .
> >
> > The only idea i get is to have a function within the class of this
> > definition where, i read the ADESC and then allocate value in address.
> Any
> > other good ideas, please can you let me know. I really appreciate your
> > links.
>
> The important module for bit manipulation in Python in the struct
> module.  If you haven't come across it before, you should read the docs.
>  It is part of the Python standard library.
>
>  http://docs.python.org/library/struct.html


 I was just scanning the replies wondering why someone has not
 mentioned "struct" so far!

 "struct" is very useful to pack data structures in/out of the wire.
 In fact if you want to convert your data structure to a bytestream, you
 should first investigate the possiblity of using "struct" before writing
 custom code or searching other solutions.




>
> Once you've done that, check out this cool module that does much of what
> you are trying to do.  Fair warning though, it uses very advanced Python
> coding including metaclasses.  You'll learn a lot by carefully figuring
> out how it does what it does.  For example it avoids the need for a
> self.order list to sequence the fields of a class definition in a rather
> clever fashion.
>
>  http://code.activestate.com/recipes/498149/


 This seems like a very useful recipe. Often one requres something
 which can handle nested objects which struct cannot do, since it wants
 things to be presented to it as basic data types.


>
>
> I'm probably going to do a source code walkthrough of this module with
> the Dallas usergroup this Saturday because of its interesting parts.
>
> -Jeff
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
-Anand
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From learningpython at aol.com  Wed Jun 24 11:33:17 2009
From: learningpython at aol.com (learningpython)
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:33:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [BangPypers] calling instance of the other class.
In-Reply-To: <8548c5f30906240015t10f5d57rd595661c2e92a930@mail.gmail.com>
References: <24145716.post@talk.nabble.com>
	<20090622131114.GB4143@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<24154873.post@talk.nabble.com> <4A409762.1080005@taupro.com>
	<24176174.post@talk.nabble.com> <4A418B91.3010206@taupro.com>
	<8548c5f30906240015t10f5d57rd595661c2e92a930@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <24181538.post@talk.nabble.com>




bangpyper wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Jeff Rush <jeff at taupro.com> wrote:
> 
>> learningpython wrote:
>> > Hi Jeff,
>> > Can i ask you a related question. Long shot ..
>> > but since you have good idea of area i am working ( which is
>> communications,
>> > sending, decoding, encoding) data over a serial interface.
>> > I have a problem, i am facing.. Like in ASN format..
>> > I have a Data Unit ( am defining a class for each )
>> >
>> > 1. msg type  ( 8 bits )
>> > 2. Identity(8 bits)
>> > 3. ADESC ( 8 bits)
>> > 4. Address ( Now this depends on value of ADESC )
>> > so the other elements, i am allocating the memory, but how can i
>> allocate
>> > Address, the number of fields ( i mean size) depends on the ASESC value
>> so
>> > it could be any value .. how can i say reserve memory .
>> >
>> > The only idea i get is to have a function within the class of this
>> > definition where, i read the ADESC and then allocate value in address.
>> Any
>> > other good ideas, please can you let me know. I really appreciate your
>> > links.
>>
>> The important module for bit manipulation in Python in the struct
>> module.  If you haven't come across it before, you should read the docs.
>>  It is part of the Python standard library.
>>
>>  http://docs.python.org/library/struct.html
> 
> 
>  I was just scanning the replies wondering why someone has not
>  mentioned "struct" so far!
> 
>  "struct" is very useful to pack data structures in/out of the wire.
>  In fact if you want to convert your data structure to a bytestream, you
>  should first investigate the possiblity of using "struct" before writing
>  custom code or searching other solutions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> Once you've done that, check out this cool module that does much of what
>> you are trying to do.  Fair warning though, it uses very advanced Python
>> coding including metaclasses.  You'll learn a lot by carefully figuring
>> out how it does what it does.  For example it avoids the need for a
>> self.order list to sequence the fields of a class definition in a rather
>> clever fashion.
>>
>>  http://code.activestate.com/recipes/498149/
> 
> 
>  This seems like a very useful recipe. Often one requres something
>  which can handle nested objects which struct cannot do, since it wants
>  things to be presented to it as basic data types.
> 
> 
>>
>>
>> I'm probably going to do a source code walkthrough of this module with
>> the Dallas usergroup this Saturday because of its interesting parts.
>>
>> -Jeff
> 
> Hi Jeff, Thanks a lot. Much appreciated. Is the code walkthrough a video
> session or a group meeting 
> at some place. If there is a any link to uploaded of your presentation.
> Please request you to send me one. I will surely follow your links
> meanwhile. Thanks a lot.
>> _______________________________________________
>> BangPypers mailing list
>> BangPypers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> -Anand
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/calling-instance-of-the-other-class.-tp24145716p24181538.html
Sent from the BangPypers - Bangalore Python Users Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


From ssquery at gmail.com  Fri Jun 26 06:37:03 2009
From: ssquery at gmail.com (sudhakar s)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:07:03 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] py2exe with pmw...help needed
Message-ID: <1528d2590906252137p10f9d634h71f0a0056fe0c2a3@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Everyone,   This is sudhakar,i want to covert my pmw application
   into an executable on Windows and ".dmg or .app" on Mac.
   while i was trying i am able to convert but unable to run my application.

   After coverting Menubar.py into Menubar.exe using py2exe and when i run
it i get the ERROR:

     C:\Python25\dist>MenuBar.exe
 Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "MenuBar.py", line 160, in <module>
  File "Pmw\Pmw_1_3\lib\PmwLoader.pyc", line 134, in __getattr__

  File "Pmw\Pmw_1_3\lib\PmwLoader.pyc", line 113, in _initialise

 IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
'C:\\Python25\\dist\\.\\Pmw\\Pmw_1_3\\lib\\Pmw.def'

Please help me how to solve the error and make an executable...

I was using the setup.py script as below:

from distutils.core import setup
import py2exe


setup(
console=['MenuBar.py'],
options={
'py2exe': {
'packages':['Pmw', 'Pmw.Pmw_1_3',
                                  'Pmw.Pmw_1_3.lib',],
'skip_archive': True,
'dll_excludes': ['MSVCR71.dll']
}
}
)


  With Regards
  S Sudhakar.
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From sridhar.ratna at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 01:32:45 2009
From: sridhar.ratna at gmail.com (Sridhar Ratnakumar)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 16:32:45 -0700
Subject: [BangPypers] Responding to people who lack the curiosity
In-Reply-To: <5ead360a0906112316s54d4d856h6cd1cfe68309bf8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c73a13a0906112131r72e6887i8f4c29e54e7dad95@mail.gmail.com>	<3e3294b70906112231n6478b876y74ded56c70d0fa69@mail.gmail.com>
	<5ead360a0906112316s54d4d856h6cd1cfe68309bf8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A47FD9D.7000106@gmail.com>

Some interesting comments from reddit (alluding to authority and a 
servile attitude):

[quote]'(...)he found Indian programmers to be very reluctant to speak 
up to management. He said they would rarely, if ever, say they were 
overburdened with too much work, and instead of asking for help, or 
saying they couldn't accomplish a task in a given period of time, they'd 
work themselves to death.'[endquote]

[quote]'It's more because they're used to authority figures that treat 
feedback as criticism.'[endquote]

[quote]'I have an Indian roommate who is currently in the CS program at 
UCLA. He's probably one of the smartest guys I know (...) However, he 
regards me as $deity{CS} (...), and so working with him on any project 
is a pain, because he seems to believe that whatever I come up with that 
approximates a design is The Way To Do Things (TM). However, as soon as 
I coerce him into designing something on his own, without prior input, 
he comes up with great stuff.'[endquote]

- 
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8uiuq/top_indian_ceo_most_american_grads_are/c0ah4an

On 6/11/2009 11:16 PM, Srijayanth Sridhar wrote:
> Good points, but what I am most curious about is why this phenomenon is
> so prevalent in the Indian dev community and not as pervasive elsewhere.
> The ruby community is rife with apt examples. The average Indian
> developer will pop up and demand answers for a really silly Rails
> question or something.
>
> Jayanth
>
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Pradeep Gowda <pradeep at btbytes.com
> <mailto:pradeep at btbytes.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Sridhar
>     Ratnakumar<sridhar.ratna at gmail.com <mailto:sridhar.ratna at gmail.com>>
>     wrote:
>      > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:22 AM, Srijayanth
>     Sridhar<srijayanth at gmail.com <mailto:srijayanth at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>      > I don't know the reasons either, but would like to know too.
>      >
>      > I often think the best way to handle such posters is to momentarily
>      > divert the topic of the conversation to their own interest-level,
>      > curiosity and self-learning .
>     </snip>..
>
>     I think it's best to ignore mails from users who do not care enough to
>     use their real name/nick while asking questions. The user in question
>       introduced himself as prasad, but we scan mail titles before reading
>     mail content. Most people wouldn't care to  read a mail from
>     "testing123 test<swtest123 at gmail.com <mailto:swtest123 at gmail.com>>",
>     let alone answer it.  Online
>     forums are just like real life communities, where people  judge  you
>     by what you say and how you say it.  It's hard to relate to a
>     anonymous, faceless name like "testing 123".  Use your real name. [1]
>
>     If the same question is asked by some one who "appears" to be a real
>     person, it might still be worth answering them, at the same time also
>     pointing them to a net etiquette
>     link [2]. In good faith, we can assume that the user in question is
>     really new to using forums/mailing lists etc.,
>
>     Over time, most people do learn how to do their home work and in turn
>     ask smart questions.
>
>     I'll see whether our membership welcome messages can be improved to
>     reflect this.
>
>     Happy hacking,
>     Pradeep
>
>     [1] http://informationarchitects.jp/use-your-real-name-when-you-comment/
>     [2] http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>     _______________________________________________
>     BangPypers mailing list
>     BangPypers at python.org <mailto:BangPypers at python.org>
>     http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers


From noufal at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 07:47:29 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:17:29 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>

(Sorry for cross posting but we need some visibility here)

Hello everyone,
    Our site is live at http://in.pycon.org/2009/

    The next thing we need to do is to publicise this event. We're
relying on informal channels to get everyone to know about the event.

    Mailing lists, blogs, tweets what not. Please CC me (noufal at gmail)
when you mail any lists that you're on. It would be useful to keep
track of how much outreach we have. Mails and invitations from people
who have cred on some lists would especially be valued. This can't be
a one man thing. The more people who dive into this and do something,
the better the event will be.

    We can keep further discussions of the invitations on the inpycon
list. I cross posted so that more people would be aware that we need
to publicise this.

Thanks



-- 
~noufal

From orsenthil at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 08:20:29 2009
From: orsenthil at gmail.com (Senthil Kumaran)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:50:29 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:17:29AM +0530, Noufal Ibrahim wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>     Our site is live at http://in.pycon.org/2009/
> 

That's cool..

I shall register right away and help with the promotional stuff. Need
to catch with mails tough.


-- 
Senthil
If you stand on your head, you will get footprints in your hair.

From duakapil at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 08:44:59 2009
From: duakapil at gmail.com (Kapsicum)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:14:59 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] [Commercial] Python/PHP
Message-ID: <4d846e3e0906282344h54a24907nd0534798b251fc2e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

There is requirement for LAMP DEVELOPER in my company
following  is the job description :-


Responsibilities

This position will be responsible for:
?         Working as a developer / software engineer on a fast-paced team
assigned to a complex, n-tier, internet-based workforce
           information system.
?         Participating in design and documentation of screen and report
layouts.
?         Participating in design and documentation of detailed technical
solution options, and communicating these to projects
          customer.
?         Developing and maintaining high quality, efficient and easily
maintainable software modules to meet business and design
          requirements.
?         Performing thorough unit and integration testing of newly
developed and changed modules.
?         Defining and/or executing system and regression test plans under
the direction of the QA Team Leader.
?         Investigating and correcting software bugs.
?         Developing high quality end user documentation and technical
documentation.
?         Responding to specific customer support and information requests.

Mandatory Requirement :

   1. 2+ years of experience in PHP/Python preferably Python.
   2. Good understanding of OOPS concepts.
   3. Good knowledge of Linux including shell scripting
   4. Experience with various RDBMS  preferably Oracle 9i.
   5. Experience with XML,CSS, Javascript.
   6. Good Team Player.


Understanding of Apache, Agile development , Test based development is a big
plus

Please contact me offline for this position.

Thanks,
__Kaps__


-- 
Kapil Dua
Skype: mitr2mitr
IRC: kaps
Mobile: +919711311052
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From stallomir at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 09:00:03 2009
From: stallomir at gmail.com (Mandar Gokhale)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:30:03 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3fb38580906290000m6585fasf31c33ed95fc8961@mail.gmail.com>

*IMHO _that_ would be better for visibility

From stallomir at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 08:53:41 2009
From: stallomir at gmail.com (Mandar Gokhale)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:23:41 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
Message-ID: <c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a standard twitter hashtag for this? IMHO would be better for
visibility

On 6/29/09, Senthil Kumaran <orsenthil at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:17:29AM +0530, Noufal Ibrahim wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>     Our site is live at http://in.pycon.org/2009/
>>
>
> That's cool..
>
> I shall register right away and help with the promotional stuff. Need
> to catch with mails tough.
>
>
> --
> Senthil
> If you stand on your head, you will get footprints in your hair.
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>


-- 
He saw his life stretching out in front of him like a nasty black
tunnel with no light at the end of it.
...He'd been wrong, there was a light at the end of the tunnel, and it
was a flamethrower.

From abpillai at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 09:33:20 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:03:20 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon Twitter Bot
In-Reply-To: <383bbcce0905241527o6d5f4e2ch90be61b3a3426e65@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A196D88.3040806@voidspace.org.uk>
	<383bbcce0905241527o6d5f4e2ch90be61b3a3426e65@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906290033md6268a1x4c7128900c5ada6e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

          This was posted in Pycon-organizers a while back.
Perhaps this is useful for our twitter organizing ?

Noufal, let me know if I need to follow up on this. Will do so gladly!

Thanks

--Anand

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Cosmin Stejerean <cstejerean at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, May 25, 2009 at 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon Twitter Bot
To: Michael Foord <fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk>
Cc: pycon-organizers Pycon-Organizers <pycon-organizers at python.org>


On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Michael Foord
<fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk>wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Anyone know who organised the PyCon Twitter bot? We'd like to do the same
> thing for EuroPython. Is the code available? (Hopefully with the recursing
> tweet fix in place...)
>

@crim on Twitter is responsible for the @pycon bot. http://twitter.com/crim

-- 
Cosmin Stejerean
http://offbytwo.com


_______________________________________________
PyCon-organizers mailing list
PyCon-organizers at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers




-- 
-Anand
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From shivraj.ms at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 10:13:52 2009
From: shivraj.ms at gmail.com (Shivaraj M S)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:43:52 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: [SciPy-dev] ANN: SciPy 2009 student sponsorship
In-Reply-To: <c7009a550906282359x68015894lf094807468bf7dec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c7009a550906282359x68015894lf094807468bf7dec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c1c314c0906290113o63b1d82dw2a2f90a62268511c@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jarrod Millman <millman at berkeley.edu>
Date: Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 12:29 PM
Subject: [SciPy-dev] ANN: SciPy 2009 student sponsorship
To: SciPy Developers List <scipy-dev at scipy.org>


I am pleased to announce that the Python Software Foundation is
sponsoring 10 students' travel, registration, and accommodation for
the SciPy 2009 conference (Aug. 18-23).  The focus of the conference
is both on scientific libraries and tools developed with Python and on
scientific or engineering achievements using Python.  If you're in
college or a graduate program, please check out the details here:
http://conference.scipy.org/student-funding

About the conference
--------------------

SciPy 2009, the 8th Python in Science conference, will be held from
August 18-23, 2009 at Caltech in Pasadena, CA, USA.  The conference
starts with two days of tutorials to the scientific Python tools.
There will be two tracks, one for introduction of the basic tools to
beginners, and one for more advanced tools.  The tutorials will be
followed by two days of talks.  Both days of talks will begin with a
keynote address.  The first day?s keynote will be given by Peter
Norvig, the Director of Research at Google; while, the second keynote
will be delivered by Jon Guyer, a Materials Scientist in the
Thermodynamics and Kinetics Group at NIST.  The program committee will
select the remaining talks from submissions to our call for papers.
All selected talks will be included in our conference proceedings
edited by the program committee.  After the talks each day we will
provide several rooms for impromptu birds of a feather discussions.
Finally, the last two days of the conference will be used for a number
of coding sprints on the major software projects in our community.

For the 8th consecutive year, the conference will bring together the
developers and users of the open source software stack for scientific
computing with Python.  Attendees have the opportunity to review the
available tools and how they apply to specific problems.  By providing
a forum for developers to share their Python expertise with the wider
commercial, academic, and research communities, this conference
fosters collaboration and facilitates the sharing of software
components, techniques, and a vision for high level language use in
scientific computing.

For further information, please visit the conference homepage:
http://conference.scipy.org.

Important Dates
---------------

* Friday, July 3: Abstracts Due
* Friday, July 10: Announce accepted talks, post schedule
* Friday, July 10: Early Registration ends
* Tuesday-Wednesday, August 18-19: Tutorials
* Thursday-Friday, August 20-21: Conference
* Saturday-Sunday, August 22-23: Sprints
* Friday, September 4: Papers for proceedings due

Executive Committee
-------------------

* Jarrod Millman, UC Berkeley, USA (Conference Chair)
* Ga?l Varoquaux, INRIA Saclay, France (Program Co-Chair)
* St?fan van der Walt, University of Stellenbosch, South Africa
(Program Co-Chair)
* Fernando P?rez, UC Berkeley, USA (Tutorial Chair)
_______________________________________________
Scipy-dev mailing list
Scipy-dev at scipy.org
http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/scipy-dev



-- 
Regards
_______________
Shivaraj
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From noufal at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 10:14:10 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:44:10 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Mandar Gokhale<stallomir at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there a standard twitter hashtag for this? IMHO would be better for
> visibility

We could just decide on one. I don't use twitter so I don't know the
details but say #pyconindia?
-- 
~noufal

From noufal at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 10:16:52 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:46:52 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon Twitter Bot
In-Reply-To: <8548c5f30906290033md6268a1x4c7128900c5ada6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A196D88.3040806@voidspace.org.uk>
	<383bbcce0905241527o6d5f4e2ch90be61b3a3426e65@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906290033md6268a1x4c7128900c5ada6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906290116x31a9e0dew3fb7197666d1bdf9@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Anand Balachandran
Pillai<abpillai at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> ????????? This was posted in Pycon-organizers a while back.
> Perhaps this is useful for our twitter organizing ?
>
> Noufal, let me know if I need to follow up on this. Will do so gladly!

I'm not too clued in on what the bot does or how we can use it. Can
you post some details?

If it can increase visibility and possibly attendance we should go for it.

-- 
~noufal

From anurag08priyam at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 11:21:30 2009
From: anurag08priyam at gmail.com (Anurag Priyam)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:51:30 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95d7ba070906290221of37076co27e8cf56e638b069@mail.gmail.com>

i have started #pyconindia hashtag. the more the people tweet with
#pyconidia in their tweet, the more it will trend, and increase our
visiblity on twitter.



-- 
Anurag Priyam
1st Year,Mechanical Engineering,
IIT Kharagpur.
+91-9775550642
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From noufal at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 11:24:49 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:54:49 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <95d7ba070906290221of37076co27e8cf56e638b069@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>
	<95d7ba070906290221of37076co27e8cf56e638b069@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906290224o67395e36lb7e61e8f2ee8a01d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Anurag Priyam<anurag08priyam at gmail.com> wrote:
> i have started #pyconindia hashtag. the more the people tweet with
> #pyconidia in their tweet, the more it will trend, and increase our
> visiblity on twitter.

Thanks Anurag. :)

Ranganath,
   Can you put this on a prominent place on the website? Preferably on
a neat section in the landing page.

Thanks


-- 
~noufal

From lawgon at au-kbc.org  Mon Jun 29 11:28:19 2009
From: lawgon at au-kbc.org (Kenneth Gonsalves)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:58:19 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <95d7ba070906290221of37076co27e8cf56e638b069@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>
	<95d7ba070906290221of37076co27e8cf56e638b069@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200906291458.19220.lawgon@au-kbc.org>

On Monday 29 June 2009 14:51:30 Anurag Priyam wrote:
> i have started #pyconindia hashtag. the more the people tweet with
> #pyconidia in their tweet, the more it will trend, and increase our
> visiblity on twitter.

and is that a good thing ;-) it is only now I realise I have grown old.
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

From lawgon at au-kbc.org  Mon Jun 29 11:29:37 2009
From: lawgon at au-kbc.org (Kenneth Gonsalves)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:59:37 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <9963e56e0906290224o67395e36lb7e61e8f2ee8a01d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<95d7ba070906290221of37076co27e8cf56e638b069@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290224o67395e36lb7e61e8f2ee8a01d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200906291459.37309.lawgon@au-kbc.org>

On Monday 29 June 2009 14:54:49 Noufal Ibrahim wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Anurag Priyam<anurag08priyam at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> > i have started #pyconindia hashtag. the more the people tweet with
> > #pyconidia in their tweet, the more it will trend, and increase our
> > visiblity on twitter.
>
> Thanks Anurag. :)
>
> Ranganath,
>    Can you put this on a prominent place on the website? Preferably on
> a neat section in the landing page.

should be in the links at the right - and as we go on to all the other social 
networking sites with strange names and stranger customs, those can also be 
added to the links
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

From abpillai at gmail.com  Mon Jun 29 11:45:15 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:15:15 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <200906291458.19220.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>
	<95d7ba070906290221of37076co27e8cf56e638b069@mail.gmail.com>
	<200906291458.19220.lawgon@au-kbc.org>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906290245q6f967a68j373bba6b1f2cf2b8@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon at au-kbc.org>wrote:

> On Monday 29 June 2009 14:51:30 Anurag Priyam wrote:
> > i have started #pyconindia hashtag. the more the people tweet with
> > #pyconidia in their tweet, the more it will trend, and increase our
> > visiblity on twitter.
>
> and is that a good thing ;-) it is only now I realise I have grown old.


  Even me at a bit more than 30+ yrs.
 So far I had thought only religious leaders/politicians had "followers" :)
!


>
> --
> regards
> Kenneth Gonsalves
> Associate
> NRC-FOSS
> http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
-Anand
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From vid at svaksha.com  Tue Jun 30 07:57:28 2009
From: vid at svaksha.com (vid)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:27:28 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12470af00906292257n300d5f48yd8ec0ddfded6ca20@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 13:44, Noufal Ibrahim<noufal at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We could just decide on one. I don't use twitter so I don't know the
> details but say #pyconindia?

how about identica? - http://identi.ca/doc/faq
i just created http://identi.ca/pyconindia/all, and will hand it over
to anyone interested in maintaining it. please volunteer on the list
before june03.

-- 
thanks
|| vid || http://www.svaksha.com ||

From hiddenharmony at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 08:29:02 2009
From: hiddenharmony at gmail.com (Vivek Khurana)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:59:02 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <12470af00906292257n300d5f48yd8ec0ddfded6ca20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>
	<12470af00906292257n300d5f48yd8ec0ddfded6ca20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91bea30d0906292329n3e37c21cu1652318f4ee320ae@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:27 AM, vid<vid at svaksha.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 13:44, Noufal Ibrahim<noufal at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We could just decide on one. I don't use twitter so I don't know the
>> details but say #pyconindia?
>
> how about identica? - http://identi.ca/doc/faq
> i just created http://identi.ca/pyconindia/all, and will hand it over
> to anyone interested in maintaining it. please volunteer on the list
> before june03.

june 03 is gone its 2009 and june of 2009 is almost over too :)

regards
Vivek
-- 
The hidden harmony is better than the obvious!!

From vid at svaksha.com  Tue Jun 30 09:15:17 2009
From: vid at svaksha.com (vid)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:45:17 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <12470af00906292257n300d5f48yd8ec0ddfded6ca20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>
	<12470af00906292257n300d5f48yd8ec0ddfded6ca20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12470af00906300015x425f320ase580db2e1c951ed1@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:27, vid<vid at svaksha.com> wrote:
>
> how about identica? - http://identi.ca/doc/faq
> i just created http://identi.ca/pyconindia/all, and will hand it over
> to anyone interested in maintaining it. please volunteer on the list
> before june03.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
correction : july03 :)


-- 
thanks
|| vid || http://www.svaksha.com ||

From amitsaha.in at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 12:06:24 2009
From: amitsaha.in at gmail.com (Amit Saha)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:36:24 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Performance benefits of Generators?
Message-ID: <547db2260906300306v4f3a203fx999981556ffbf7a3@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Theoretically and/or practically, is it possible to reason about the
performance gain/loss of using generators?  The PEP 255
(http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0255/) doesn't seem to hint at it.

Anything that any of you would like to share on this ?

Best,
Amit

-- 
Journal: http://amitksaha.wordpress.com,
?-blog: http://twitter.com/amitsaha

Freenode: cornucopic in #scheme, #lisp, #math,#linux, #python

From amitsaha.in at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 12:07:44 2009
From: amitsaha.in at gmail.com (Amit Saha)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:37:44 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Performance benefits of Generators?
In-Reply-To: <547db2260906300306v4f3a203fx999981556ffbf7a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <547db2260906300306v4f3a203fx999981556ffbf7a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <547db2260906300307i47324708g50bef97deb189789@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Amit Saha<amitsaha.in at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Theoretically and/or practically, is it possible to reason about the
> performance gain/loss of using generators? ?The PEP 255
> (http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0255/) doesn't seem to hint at it.
>
> Anything that any of you would like to share on this ?

Since, this is out of mere curiosity, for the moment, performance
would be simply the time taken to complete a task.

-Amit

-- 
Journal: http://amitksaha.wordpress.com,
?-blog: http://twitter.com/amitsaha

Freenode: cornucopic in #scheme, #lisp, #math,#linux, #python

From pythonic at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 12:17:41 2009
From: pythonic at gmail.com (Shekhar)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:47:41 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Performance benefits of Generators?
In-Reply-To: <547db2260906300306v4f3a203fx999981556ffbf7a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <547db2260906300306v4f3a203fx999981556ffbf7a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A49E645.509@gmail.com>

Amit Saha wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Theoretically and/or practically, is it possible to reason about the
> performance gain/loss of using generators?  The PEP 255
> (http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0255/) doesn't seem to hint at it.
>
> Anything that any of you would like to share on this ?
>
> Best,
> Amit
>
>   
Hi Amit,

The pdf at http://www.dabeaz.com/generators-uk/GeneratorsUK.pdf was a 
great deal of help for me.
It has good examples about performance (some numbers too) gains in 
different situations.

Cheers,
Shekhar

From chirayu at chirayu.org  Tue Jun 30 12:20:26 2009
From: chirayu at chirayu.org (Chirayu Patel)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:50:26 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Performance benefits of Generators?
In-Reply-To: <547db2260906300306v4f3a203fx999981556ffbf7a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <547db2260906300306v4f3a203fx999981556ffbf7a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6de82a140906300320s784252c1hf941924f79d3cb2e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Amit Saha <amitsaha.in at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Theoretically and/or practically, is it possible to reason about the
> performance gain/loss of using generators?  The PEP 255
> (http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0255/) doesn't seem to hint at it.
>
> Anything that any of you would like to share on this ?
>

The most prevalent use case is in designs where a list generated by a
function is iterated over (third para of the PEP). Other couple of places
where I have used them are for tree traversal (instead of recursion), and as
generator expressions (instead of list comprehensions).

In all these three scenarios generators provide both CPU and memory
improvements over the traditional solutions.
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From venkat83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 12:23:06 2009
From: venkat83 at gmail.com (Venkatraman S)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:53:06 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Performance benefits of Generators?
In-Reply-To: <547db2260906300307i47324708g50bef97deb189789@mail.gmail.com>
References: <547db2260906300306v4f3a203fx999981556ffbf7a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<547db2260906300307i47324708g50bef97deb189789@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a3b05e8b0906300323l2f58e9cew28ce93c6a4fef727@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Amit Saha <amitsaha.in at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> >
> > Theoretically and/or practically, is it possible to reason about the
> > performance gain/loss of using generators?  The PEP 255
> > (http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0255/) doesn't seem to hint at it.
>
> Since, this is out of mere curiosity, for the moment, performance
> would be simply the time taken to complete a task.
>

Check out David Beazley's(dabeaz) article on Generators.

OTOH, Decorators , lambdas ('syntactic sugars') et al reduce the number of
lines of code,
depending on the scenario, for a given piece of complex logic, but these are
'slow'. But, I dont think
the factor is huge enough to cause a performance bottleneck.  I had similar
reservations on
list comprehensions, but in some cases the bytecode generated by LC is same
as the one generated
by the if-else/loop counterparts. If you are building apps wherein  every
microsecond matters,
then it is better to time both variants - the sugars and their vanilla
equivalents - and then choose the best.

-V-
http://twitter.com/venkasub
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From abpillai at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 14:12:36 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:42:36 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon Twitter Bot
In-Reply-To: <9963e56e0906290116x31a9e0dew3fb7197666d1bdf9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A196D88.3040806@voidspace.org.uk>
	<383bbcce0905241527o6d5f4e2ch90be61b3a3426e65@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906290033md6268a1x4c7128900c5ada6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290116x31a9e0dew3fb7197666d1bdf9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906300512r5b12870ge63eefc94055a242@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Noufal,

       The main use of the bot for a conference is for sending updates
via twitter. The way it works is as follows.

1. A twitter bot account for the conference is created on twitter.
For our conference it could be "inpycon" for example.
2. An admin befriends the bot.
3. For broadcasting (tweeting) a message, the admin sends a command
to the twitter bot with the message to be tweeted and the bot "tweets" it.
4. Everyone "following" the bot gets the update.
5. We can also publish the update on the website in this case,
the in-pycon website.

These are "push" bots.

The bot will be running on a server, in this case it should ideally run
on the inpycon server.

I have the twitter reflect script written by Stephen Crimm for Pycon
with me. I can take care of installing this on our inpycon server
and administering it.

I just need root ssh access on the inpycon machine. Kenneth,
can u send this info to me directly ?

Thanks

--Anand


On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Noufal Ibrahim <noufal at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Anand Balachandran
> Pillai<abpillai at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >           This was posted in Pycon-organizers a while back.
> > Perhaps this is useful for our twitter organizing ?
> >
> > Noufal, let me know if I need to follow up on this. Will do so gladly!
>
> I'm not too clued in on what the bot does or how we can use it. Can
> you post some details?
>
> If it can increase visibility and possibly attendance we should go for it.
>
> --
> ~noufal
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
-Anand
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From hiddenharmony at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 14:25:47 2009
From: hiddenharmony at gmail.com (Vivek Khurana)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:55:47 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon Twitter Bot
In-Reply-To: <8548c5f30906300512r5b12870ge63eefc94055a242@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A196D88.3040806@voidspace.org.uk>
	<383bbcce0905241527o6d5f4e2ch90be61b3a3426e65@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906290033md6268a1x4c7128900c5ada6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290116x31a9e0dew3fb7197666d1bdf9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906300512r5b12870ge63eefc94055a242@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91bea30d0906300525y536e6f91i3c865a56d52266dd@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Anand Balachandran
Pillai<abpillai at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Noufal,
>
> ?????? The main use of the bot for a conference is for sending updates
> via twitter. The way it works is as follows.
>
> 1. A twitter bot account for the conference is created on twitter.
> For our conference it could be "inpycon" for example.
> 2. An admin befriends the bot.
> 3. For broadcasting (tweeting) a message, the admin sends a command
> to the twitter bot with the message to be tweeted and the bot "tweets" it.
> 4. Everyone "following" the bot gets the update.
> 5. We can also publish the update on the website in this case,
> the in-pycon website.
>
> These are "push" bots.
>
> The bot will be running on a server, in this case it should ideally run
> on the inpycon server.
>


 Your idea is fantastic but I cant understand how difficult it is to
go to twitter.com and post the message ? At last we will be posting
max two messages a day ? So for a simple two message why run such a
big setup...

regards
Vivek

-- 
The hidden harmony is better than the obvious!!

From noufal at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 14:35:04 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:05:04 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon Twitter Bot
In-Reply-To: <91bea30d0906300525y536e6f91i3c865a56d52266dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A196D88.3040806@voidspace.org.uk>
	<383bbcce0905241527o6d5f4e2ch90be61b3a3426e65@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906290033md6268a1x4c7128900c5ada6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290116x31a9e0dew3fb7197666d1bdf9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906300512r5b12870ge63eefc94055a242@mail.gmail.com>
	<91bea30d0906300525y536e6f91i3c865a56d52266dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906300535i2bbbea98sbf0a2ca09c8a6948@mail.gmail.com>

It's probably useful if it can be quickly set up.

I think *real* publicity will be gained by people posting/blogging
about the event.

-- 
~noufal

From abpillai at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 14:48:44 2009
From: abpillai at gmail.com (Anand Balachandran Pillai)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:18:44 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon Twitter Bot
In-Reply-To: <9963e56e0906300535i2bbbea98sbf0a2ca09c8a6948@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A196D88.3040806@voidspace.org.uk>
	<383bbcce0905241527o6d5f4e2ch90be61b3a3426e65@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906290033md6268a1x4c7128900c5ada6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290116x31a9e0dew3fb7197666d1bdf9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906300512r5b12870ge63eefc94055a242@mail.gmail.com>
	<91bea30d0906300525y536e6f91i3c865a56d52266dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906300535i2bbbea98sbf0a2ca09c8a6948@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8548c5f30906300548q2c337181o441f97a84972fa24@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Noufal Ibrahim <noufal at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's probably useful if it can be quickly set up.
>
> I think *real* publicity will be gained by people posting/blogging
> about the event.


 You got it wrong. A twitter bot is not for publicity. It is for actual
instant
 updates of any conference events/decisions to those interested.

 For example, we can update important dates/any conference website
 updates to subscribers. For example, when we start accepting
 talk proposals, we can tweet it.

 Twitter is popular among web developers and folks who are up2date
  with technology, so this will be very useful.

 I know someone will say RSS feeds, but there is no doubt that
 tweets are much more instantaneous than RSS feeds.

 Let me try it. If it turns out to be too much of a headache, we can always
 drop it.


>
> --
> ~noufal
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
-Anand
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From noufal at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 14:50:58 2009
From: noufal at gmail.com (Noufal Ibrahim)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:20:58 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] [Inpycon] Fwd: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon Twitter Bot
In-Reply-To: <8548c5f30906300548q2c337181o441f97a84972fa24@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A196D88.3040806@voidspace.org.uk>
	<383bbcce0905241527o6d5f4e2ch90be61b3a3426e65@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906290033md6268a1x4c7128900c5ada6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290116x31a9e0dew3fb7197666d1bdf9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906300512r5b12870ge63eefc94055a242@mail.gmail.com>
	<91bea30d0906300525y536e6f91i3c865a56d52266dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906300535i2bbbea98sbf0a2ca09c8a6948@mail.gmail.com>
	<8548c5f30906300548q2c337181o441f97a84972fa24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9963e56e0906300550t7dde9e4ex158d0de1a4b04db2@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Anand Balachandran
Pillai<abpillai at gmail.com> wrote:
[..]
> ?Let me try it. If it turns out to be too much of a headache, we can always
> ?drop it.

That's wise.

-- 
~noufal

From maxin_john at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jun 30 15:10:17 2009
From: maxin_john at yahoo.co.uk (Maxin B John)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:10:17 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [BangPypers] [Inpycon] Fwd: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon Twitter Bot
Message-ID: <386972.54945.qm@web26603.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hi ,



As we all know, using twitter with python-twitter is very simple:



###############################################################


# The simplest python program to play with twitter using python-twitter


#? Google Code:?? http://code.google.com/p/python-twitter/


#? Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/group/python-twitter


#? Python twitter API can be used to send and receive twitter messages


#


# Thanks to DeWitt Clinton <dewitt at google.com> for this wonderful module


#





import twitter





api = twitter.Api(username="my_twitter_username", password="my_secret_password", input_encoding=None)


status = api.PostUpdate("example of the simplest twitter message program ")


print status.text





###########################################################



I am very much interested in the development of? 'PyCon Twitter Bot'.
So, Anand and others, please tell me how shall we co-ordinate it's
development?



Best Regards,

Maxin B. John


      
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From ranganaths at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 17:16:10 2009
From: ranganaths at gmail.com (Ranganath s)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:46:10 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] Invitations fo Pycon India
In-Reply-To: <12470af00906300015x425f320ase580db2e1c951ed1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9963e56e0906282247k3944e634iabfabcb1cee6b624@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090629062029.GA4259@ubuntu.ubuntu-domain>
	<c3fb38580906282353k5ed7387dn8c2898c5c687d79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9963e56e0906290114p618e3157kdcae1fb8e7f40911@mail.gmail.com>
	<12470af00906292257n300d5f48yd8ec0ddfded6ca20@mail.gmail.com>
	<12470af00906300015x425f320ase580db2e1c951ed1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77bb36840906300816v7564a3b1v65ed40329f6795b5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

            The twitter tag and the identica tag has been added. check it
out..

-R


On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:45 PM, vid <vid at svaksha.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:27, vid<vid at svaksha.com> wrote:
> >
> > how about identica? - http://identi.ca/doc/faq
> > i just created http://identi.ca/pyconindia/all, and will hand it over
> > to anyone interested in maintaining it. please volunteer on the list
> > before june03.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> correction : july03 :)
>
>
> --
> thanks
> || vid || http://www.svaksha.com ||
> _______________________________________________
> BangPypers mailing list
> BangPypers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
>



-- 
I blog at http://ranganaths.wordpress.com
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From ckponnappa at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 22:40:56 2009
From: ckponnappa at gmail.com (C. K. Ponnappa)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:10:56 +0530
Subject: [BangPypers] [ANN] CC.rb 1.4.0 released
Message-ID: <4A4A7858.8050802@gmail.com>

Folks, we've just released CC.rb 1.4.0 with support for git, hg and bzr.
As always, CC.rb is easy to install, pleasant to use and simple to hack.

You can use it to continuously integrate a codebase in any language, not
just Ruby.

Live examples?
http://ci.rubyonrails.org
http://cruisecontrolrb.thoughtworks.com/projects
http://ci.pivotallabs.com

Get it off Github: http://github.com/thoughtworks/cruisecontrol.rb

CC.rb is released under the Apache 2.0 licence.

Best,
Sidu.
http://blog.sidu.in