[BangPypers] Appropriate list conduct (was Re: Fwd: Fw: Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py)

Mon Sep 9 18:07:26 CEST 2013

Bibhas,

You should be able to rest easy.  In the 10+yrs I have been on this mailing seldom/never have I seen someone bring in discord  and 
in-your-face as was done recently... I rather expect to go another 10yrs before seeing it here again.

Now, to Bibhas'  point about desiring to see Pythonic discussions - always good initiative to start some discussions rather than waiting for one.  
We try to avoid questions that fail the "did you google it first?" test.
Other that that, whether a discussion is interesting and topical is, er, subjective. 
Don't be afraid to try it. Not every discussion must be about the arcane here. 

So to that I started a thread of interest to me, hopefully useful to those new to the list, what "favorite tips" our experts here found of frequent use.

________________________________
 From: Bibhas <me at bibhas.in>
To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India <bangpypers at python.org> 
Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Appropriate list conduct (was Re: Fwd: Fw:	Fwd:	https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py)

Thanks Dhananjay, 

Finally someone is asking something sensible among all the mud throwing that's going on.

I have the same set of questions. I'm  one of the junior most members here and the behaviors of all the senior members have really disappointed me for last two days. Specially because a lot of people who participated in that thread, hardly participates in any python related discussions in this list. I joined this group thinking it'd be a constructive source of discussions. But with all the childish blaming around (like we kids take a matter to the teacher or parents or shout to the the class rather than trying to solve it ourselves), even after an apology was posted long back, I have started to believe that I'm in the wrong place.

I'm now waiting for the matter to close and all the related people to come to peace. If that doesn't happen, I'm better off the list. And from the behaviors I've seen in last two days, I'd rather not join any other groups in future, new or old. 

Thanks for everything. 

Dhananjay Nene <dhananjay.nene at gmail.com> wrote:
>Top posting since am making some rather broad comments rather than to
>specific lines in particular.
>
>
>This is a thread which has been bothering me since morning. For a
>number of reasons.
>
>None of them have to do with the very essence of the thread, since I
>never got to see the repository and the code to be able to make a
>judgement. So I took an apology offered as a sign of matter closed and
>hopefully things taking a turn for the better.
>
>* Yet more comments continued about specific people. I've always
>thought a good decorum is to attack issues, generally not people. Is
>that a reasonable guideline to follow ? I really do not think it was
>appropriate to continue with judgement about people once the
>underlying issues had been addressed. I don't know if I hold a
>minority position here.
>* Further comments continued about how to appropriately bring the
>matter to a closure. I thought the convergence and agreement on the
>core issues should've closed it. I am frankly not sure why anyone
>would've imagined why list readers would be remotely interested in
>further tactical matters such as existence or deletion of github repos
>and the necessity to close them out and the sequencing thereof.
>* I was further happy to note that the thread died down, but no, there
>was more drama to follow. It so seems a private message was forwarded
>to the mailing list. I speak for myself, but to me and under my
>individual code of conduct, this is outrageous behaviour. This
>concerns me. There are some serious privacy issues here (imo).
>
>eg: I was to respond to matters raised in this mailing list to someone
>else privately, I am no longer sure whats the community stand - can it
>be made public or will the community severely frown on such a
>behaviour. I am in doubt because list admins are further being
>encouraged stop "this" whatever this means in the context. This breaks
>every known decorum I know of and I wonder if this list has a
>different set of rules than what I think lists follow.
>
>I think there are some meta-issues about the mailing list that do need
>to be discussed. I don't know if this is the place to do it, so will
>leave it at these set of open questions to be worked through. This
>discussion could be moved to an appropriate forum if this is not the
>place.
>
>Dhananjay
>
>
>On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 12:08 AM, svaksha <svaksha at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Chris, STOP emailing me offlist. I made it very clear earlier that I
>> didnt want to have any private conversations and have said everything
>> on the list.
>> List admins, can you do something to stop this? Thanks.
>> svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: CsquaredinOmaha <c2inomaha at yahoo.com>
>> Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 6:32 PM
>> Subject: Fw: [BangPypers] Fwd: 
>https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
>> To: "svaksha at gmail.com" <svaksha at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> Svaksah,
>>
>> This was intended to be sent to you directly, not to the group list.
>> My rule is "praise in public, criticize in private".  But I made a
>> mistake in replying using this yahoo email interface.
>> My apologies.
>>
>>
>> ----- Forwarded Message -----
>> From: CsquaredinOmaha <c2inomaha at yahoo.com>
>> To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India <bangpypers at python.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 1:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Fwd:
>https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
>>
>> That is what I thought - you have no answers and are simply
>interested
>> in forcing others by your bullying.
>>
>> I took it off topic, directly to you, because I was honestly
>> interested in your reply
>> and didn't want your reply to be compelled to be less than honest.
>>
>> So my asking you a question you don't want to answer  means you label
>> it  "troll"
>> and  wondering your position on equality of free speech is "ad
>hominem" .....
>>
>>
>> Your stance and attitude do  your cause disservice.
>>  I don't believe you have even it any thought and perhaps don't even
>> grasped my point.
>> Which is unfortunate,  it seems as so many liberals, that you are
>> being loud without being thoughtful.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: svaksha <svaksha at gmail.com>
>> To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India <bangpypers at python.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 12:49 PM
>> Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd:  https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
>>
>>
>> Chris, was it easier to troll in private than on the public
>Bangpypers
>> mailing list? If you're reduced to ad hominem and that too in private
>> off-list messages, you're pretty clearly out of anything remotely
>> relevant to say.
>> svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: CsquaredinOmaha <c2inomaha at yahoo.com>
>> Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 5:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
>> To: "svaksha at gmail.com" <svaksha at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> svaksha,
>>
>> Let me see if I can summarize your string of responses:
>>
>> You are offended by Anand making fun of a group that used ".com"
>> instead of ".org"
>> and he apparently was sarcastically bringing into question/criticism
>> some parts of your stated mission.
>>
>> In the subsequent emails, you threatened to report him and announced
>> you felt the need to shame him on this list.
>>
>> So in essence Anand poked fun at some of your organizational
>> decisions, and your response was to threaten.
>>
>> You would be a better representative for your views if you
>> 1) Develop thicker skin about criticism - if you are confident in
>your
>> cause, you don't have to be so easily offended.
>>     This episode illustrates that you are not.  It makes your
>> position, like your confidence,  look weak.
>> 2) Threatening to get someone in trouble over an opinion is
>"political
>> correctness", which is very damaging to open discourse and thought.
>>      You not only have the right to voice your opinions, but also as
>> part of that right, you have the right to dislike another's opinion.
>>      This should never be confused with the non-existent right to
>shut
>> up someone when they displease you...
>>      You would not want someone to shut you up when they disagree
>with
>> you - so have the decency to recognize that applies both of you.
>>
>> I have had this discussion many times - for some reason programmers,
>> despite having a college education,
>> did not seem to pay enough attention to civil rights class.
>>
>> I realize you were angry and this is how you dealt with the insult
>you
>> perceived.
>> But unfortunately when you react, by being easily bruised,
>> unconfident, and demanding suppression of  others....damages your
>> cause.
>>
>> Now, final note - Anand made a point that has been made many times
>> before, and I would be interested in your response:
>>    "What purpose is served by creating a women's group, instead of
>> joining the existing group thus making it more diverse?"
>>     In other words, what purpose is served by intentional
>segregation?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Chris
>> Payments Systems engineer - Omaha, Nebraska, US
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: svaksha <svaksha at gmail.com>
>> To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India <bangpypers at python.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2013 9:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Anand B Pillai
>> <anandpillai at letterboxes.org> wrote:
>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> > Hash: SHA1
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > On Sunday 08 September 2013 01:44 AM, svaksha wrote:
>> >> On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Anand B Pillai
>> >> <anandpillai at letterboxes.org> wrote:
>> >>> +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my "actions"
>> >>> deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat
>> >>> extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF
>> >>> member from 2010 and also President of PSSI.
>> >>
>> >> So? If anything, you should be held to higher standards as a PSF
>> >> member and PSSI president.
>> >
>> > I have my personal standards and I am not the type of person
>> > who likes to project stereotypes if you understand what I mean.
>> > I like to break stereotypes.
>> >
>> > Btw, if you have heard of the term "anarchy", possibly that
>corresponds
>> > best to what I did. Maybe you aren't used to people in position
>> > resorting to anarchy, but I have often found it effective.
>> >
>> > See, people come from various backgrounds and beliefs, so
>> > the most civilized thing to do is to respect the other person's
>> > view points while asserting your freedom to differ instead
>> > of trying to ram down your thoughts down other's throats
>> > again and again.
>> >
>> > This is especially true in mailing lists. Being the last person
>> > to post in a thread doesn't mean you are essentially right. It
>> > possibly just means either people are shutting you out or
>> > they are treating the thread now as noise - or they are just
>> > indifferent.
>>
>> Am I supposed to thank you for your patronizing attempt to silence me
>> because now you sound even more arrogant than before.
>>
>>
>> >> I hope Anu's email was explanation enough.
>> >
>> > Yes it was to an extent and since the matter is settled, I am not
>sure
>> > what you are trying to do by sending these follow-ups.
>>
>> An "if you were offended" is not an apology. "If" is a conditional
>> statement and a classic "non-apology" masquerading as an apology.
>> Since you took the trouble of creating another repo:
>> https://github.com/pythonhacker/chillpill , I am curious if this is
>> another "humorous" version of STFU. Did you forget to add some python
>> code?
>>
>>
>> >>> My "isnt_that_odd" function of ladies.py was specifically
>> >>> written to bring this point. Happy to see it hit the target.
>> >>
>> >> Anand, now you just come across as self-entitled and arrogant. The
>> >> "if apology" not withstanding.
>> >>
>> >>> 2. Mission - It would be nice to educate us all in this list
>> >>> about the goals of a separate organization for "ladies coding" as
>> >>> apart from the general PSF umbrella. I am not misogynistic
>> >>
>> >> You have been a PSF member since 2010, so did you question the PSF
>> >> when they gave a $10,000 grant to the Pyladies.com org? I'm
>> >> curious because you want to know about the motives of a chapter.
>> >
>> > No, I wasn't aware of it at that point as I don't keep
>> > track of these things regularly. However since the local
>> > chapter had started and there were a few emails, I have been
>> > thinking more about it.
>> >
>> > Being a member of PSF doesn't mean you agree with everything
>> > and also take on everything you may not agree religiously. There
>> > are grey areas where you defer your considerations to a future
>> > date - let me say this was one of it.
>>
>> Nobody asked you to agree with everything, I certainly didnt. The
>fact
>> that Anu was able to start and get support for PyLadies-BLR from the
>> PSF proves that she was able to kickstart it without your support.
>> Right, you dont need every PSF member to agree on everything.
>>
>>
>>
>> >>> in anyway, but in general I don't personally agree with "woman
>> >>> coding" as a separate problem as opposed to "people coding".
>> >>
>> >> I hope you raised these objections on the PSF mailing list too.
>> >
>> > I have been thinking more about it but as I see this is an issue
>> > more of politics than technology and society, I may not.
>> >
>> > But I might as well - I don't know at this point.
>>
>> The next time you see anything related to PyLadies or women in Foss,
>> feel free to air your sexist view that women's groups "is an issue
>> more of politics than technology and society" on the PSF list. The
>zen
>> of Python decrees that "Errors should never pass silently." and
>> "Explicit is better than implicit".
>>
>> svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष
>> _______________________________________________
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