From steve.kirsch at propel.com Tue Apr 4 02:56:46 2006 From: steve.kirsch at propel.com (Steve Kirsch) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 17:56:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python jobs in San Jose: Help eradicate spam Message-ID: <76BB7F270C366D47AA79851BB0B39D81A120BC@exchg02.propel.com> I started a new company, Abaca, to eradicate spam forever from the face of the planet. Like my previous 2 companies (Propel and Infoseek), everything is done in Python (ok, some parts were in C at Infoseek!). We have openings for a few more very talented software engineers who hate spam and want to do something about it. Local candidates (San Jose, CA) are preferred, but incredible non-local talent is OK too. Know of anyone we should be talking to? If we hire that person, we'll pay you a $1,500 referral bonus! So you get paid for helping to rid the world of spam! What could be better than that! -steve Here is the linkedIn posting: http://snipurl.com/omzv ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Get 99% spam blocking without tuning, or it's FREE. http://www.abaca.com" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 10:54:30 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 01:54:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: References: <20060327152153.GA23013@panix.com> Message-ID: > By the way, I wrote an exhaustive summary of the book "Professional > Software Development" > > because I thought it was interesting. If people are interested, I > could give it as a talk and answer questions from the point of view of > the author. Alternatively, I could just blog it and save meeting time > for something more Pythonic. I've uploaded the slides here: http://ironorchid.com/jjinux/articles/professional_software_engineering/ -jj From walterv at gbbservices.com Wed Apr 5 19:21:39 2006 From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:21:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] tonight - Guido van Rossum on Python's Future Message-ID: <4433FCA3.7070005@gbbservices.com> When: Wednesday, April 5, 2006 Topic: A Look At Python's Future Speaker: Guido van Rossum Time: 7:00pm Where: eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay) 2161 North First St San Jose, CA 95131 Map: Cost: Free More Info: Guido van Rossum is the creator of Python, one of the major free scripting languages. He created Python in the early 1990s at CWI in Amsterdam, and is still actively involved in the development of the language. In 1995 he moved to the US; first to work for CNRI in Reston, VA as a researcher, then for Zope Corporation as Director of PythonLabs, then, after a move to the SF bay area, for Elemental Security, and then, since December 2005, Google. His home on the web is . Upcoming ACCU talks: - May 10, 2006: "A Gentle Introduction to Unicode" by Scott Atwood - June 14, 2006: "Python at Google" by Greg Stein The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers please email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com Walter Vannini President, Silicon Valley ACCU From wescpy at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 23:54:24 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:54:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership Message-ID: <78b3a9580604061454l4f0435bfyad23c539fb1c1a94@mail.gmail.com> everyone, throughout the past several years, there have been a number of us "responsible" for BayPIGgies, Deidre, Danny, myself, Chad briefly, and more recently Aahz, and Tony. However, it seems that most of this list has disappeared in one form or another... I haven't seen Deirdre in years, Aahz in almost a year, Chad's gone, Reg moved to Colorado, and Danny is now gone to graduate school. So it's been just Tony and myself recently, and with the arrival of our 2nd baby coming up in a few weeks, I too, will be out of the picture for several months. at the coming meeting, i would like to propose new volunteers step up to the plate to help run BayPIGgies and keep it going, get the snacks going again, invite speakers, and help coordinate the whole group in general. things really got cold for a bit when we had our 1st baby, and i don't want to see that happen again. i want to see new leadership with energy and passion, to kick us all awake, and to be able to bring meaningful discussion and talks to our group. so, if you have the energy, drive, and desire to grow BayPIGgies to be even better than it is now, please come prepared to tell folks about your vision of BayPIGgies in the future, and everyone else be prepared to pick 2-3 folks to help run it. ideally, i'd like to see at least one person of the 2 or 3 at every meeting to make announcements and introduce the speaker. you will also be responsible for updating the website in a consistent and XHTML-valid way once a month. thanks for listening, -wesley From deirdre at deirdre.net Fri Apr 7 00:13:21 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 15:13:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580604061454l4f0435bfyad23c539fb1c1a94@mail.gmail.com> References: <78b3a9580604061454l4f0435bfyad23c539fb1c1a94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2006, at 2:54 PM, w chun wrote: > at the coming meeting, i would like to propose new volunteers step up > to the plate to help run BayPIGgies and keep it going, get the snacks > going again, invite speakers, and help coordinate the whole group in > general. Honestly, it doesn't take tons of energy, just a few hours a month. Lining up speakers is probably the biggest single time sink, and with so many talented Python people in the bay area, I think there's lots to draw from. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Apr 7 01:34:19 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:34:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580604061454l4f0435bfyad23c539fb1c1a94@mail.gmail.com> References: <78b3a9580604061454l4f0435bfyad23c539fb1c1a94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060406233419.GA13613@panix.com> On Thu, Apr 06, 2006, w chun wrote: > > throughout the past several years, there have been a number of us > "responsible" for BayPIGgies, Deidre, Danny, myself, Chad briefly, and > more recently Aahz, and Tony. However, it seems that most of this > list has disappeared in one form or another... I haven't seen Deirdre > in years, Aahz in almost a year, Chad's gone, Reg moved to Colorado, > and Danny is now gone to graduate school. So it's been just Tony and > myself recently, and with the arrival of our 2nd baby coming up in a > few weeks, I too, will be out of the picture for several months. Um, in what way have I disappeared? I haven't gone to meetings, true; however, I think that this list is just as much a part of the BayPIGgies community as the meetings are. Moreover, I've done a fair bit to drive BayPIGgies meeting agenda, blah, blah, blah. My point is that while it's critical to have people who help organize at the meetings themselves, I want people to feel that their help is wanted even if they can't make meetings or if they feel uncomfortable speaking in public. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 02:36:15 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:36:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <20060406233419.GA13613@panix.com> References: <78b3a9580604061454l4f0435bfyad23c539fb1c1a94@mail.gmail.com> <20060406233419.GA13613@panix.com> Message-ID: On 4/6/06, Aahz wrote: > On Thu, Apr 06, 2006, w chun wrote: > > > > throughout the past several years, there have been a number of us > > "responsible" for BayPIGgies, Deidre, Danny, myself, Chad briefly, and > > more recently Aahz, and Tony. However, it seems that most of this > > list has disappeared in one form or another... I haven't seen Deirdre > > in years, Aahz in almost a year, Chad's gone, Reg moved to Colorado, > > and Danny is now gone to graduate school. So it's been just Tony and > > myself recently, and with the arrival of our 2nd baby coming up in a > > few weeks, I too, will be out of the picture for several months. > > Um, in what way have I disappeared? I haven't gone to meetings, true; > however, I think that this list is just as much a part of the BayPIGgies > community as the meetings are. Moreover, I've done a fair bit to drive > BayPIGgies meeting agenda, blah, blah, blah. > > My point is that while it's critical to have people who help organize at > the meetings themselves, I want people to feel that their help is wanted > even if they can't make meetings or if they feel uncomfortable speaking > in public. I agree with Wesley. Although I personally find our current level of anarchy somewhat fun, I've heard complaints that the group lacks focus. BTW, I nominate Drew ;) /me giggles. Like how I just violated my own rule about volunteering other people? ;) -jj From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Apr 7 03:02:01 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 18:02:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580604061454l4f0435bfyad23c539fb1c1a94@mail.gmail.com> <20060406233419.GA13613@panix.com> Message-ID: <20060407010201.GA28977@panix.com> On Thu, Apr 06, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > On 4/6/06, Aahz wrote: >> >> My point is that while it's critical to have people who help organize at >> the meetings themselves, I want people to feel that their help is wanted >> even if they can't make meetings or if they feel uncomfortable speaking >> in public. > > I agree with Wesley. Although I personally find our current level of > anarchy somewhat fun, I've heard complaints that the group lacks > focus. The level of anarchy IMO is primarily driven by lack of agenda. Anyone reading this list can help with that. Of course, we also need people to present material, but I sure don't want the "leaders" of the group on the hook for that. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From DennisR at dair.com Fri Apr 7 03:42:51 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:42:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <20060407010201.GA28977@panix.com> References: <78b3a9580604061454l4f0435bfyad23c539fb1c1a94@mail.gmail.com> <20060406233419.GA13613@panix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060406182611.00bfa228@localhost> >Aahz> The level of anarchy IMO is primarily driven by lack of agenda. The meeting format is also responsible here. Announcements should be moved end of the meeting and be *brief*. Having rapid fire, brief announcements at the end of the meeting will yield a latency of no more than a few minutes between the making of an announcement and the opportunity to go discuss it. As it stands now, over an hour passes before there is an opportunity to discuss and most of the content of the announcement is lost. Everybody loses. Without announcements at the beginning, people who came for the technical part of the meeting can reasonably expect the program to start on time and leave when they want after it is over. JJ> ... I personally find our current level of > anarchy somewhat fun, I've heard complaints that the group lacks > focus. I will not travel very far for unfocused anarchy -- not my idea of fun. Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Apr 7 08:03:59 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 23:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060406182611.00bfa228@localhost> Message-ID: Hello Python People, Thanks so much for bringing this up, Wesley. It's been on my mind. And, congratulations on the new baby. That's wonderful! I would like to be active in a professional group that is centered around Python. But I am reticent to step forward here for two reasons. One is the name. 'Baypiggies' is cute but it doesn't say what we are or suggest professionalism. The other obstacle to my whole-hearted participation is the expectation that private email messages carry an obligation of secrecy for the recipient. I wonder if there is a mechanism for changing these things? But, in spite of these reservations, here I go anyway. Aahz, I'd like to reinforce what you say and add that I see this email list as the critical glue that holds the group together. Email is the killer app. And thank you JJ, Deirdre, and Dennis for your prodding words. Perhaps, if we think of the face-to-face meeting as an activity that the email list sponsors, well, maybe that's a practical way to model the organization? As an email list, we exist as a group, whether or not there's a face-to-face. We have a point of contact with a community of pythonic thinkers and maybe that's the most important thing. The icing-on-the-cake is that together we can organize any sort of activity, if there's an idea and energy. I attended two meetings lately and there was a hefty audience, even when there was no real program planned. I find it a bit perplexing. Why do people come? So, maybe, in addition to looking for new 'leadership', as Wesley suggested, it might make sense to take a little time to ask people what they want. Do they come hoping to learn something? Hoping to rub elbows with other people who speak python? Network? Job-shop? What sort of face-to-face activities might be interesting? Do people only want to be passively entertained by speakers or might they like to participate in something? Does the topic have to be about python or might we be interested in JJ's talk on software development? Or a travelogue slide-show by a member? Might we be happy to have a dessert party where we just schmooze instead of having a speaker each time? Do we have a statement of purpose? Back to sponsoring a talk. I'm hearing that the list of tasks are: 1. Finding a place for the meetings. That's done. 2. Figuring out the activity for the evening. This seems to be the hard part. 3. Finding someone to show up on time and start the meeting. I can do this -- especially if there is another volunteer to take over after 8:30 so I can leave and get to the end of my dance club. I've been dancing with that community for 17 years! 4. Find a web volunteer to fix up the web site each month. I see that the April 12 meeting is already posted! Good work someone! I guess it would be good to add whether the meeting is at Google or Ironport. 5. Provide snacks? Maybe this is optional? As an email list, we might find other ideas for things we can organize together. The linux users group has an occasional "Installathon". We could hold a "Learnathon". I could see myself volunteering to facilitate an occasional session on a well-defined subject ("Sequence Types", "Dictionaries", "Function Protocols", "Intro to Classes", ...) where people brought their laptops and worked through some lab exercises. Maybe we could collectively figure a way to push Python into the schools? Thanks for listening. Marilyn Davis From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Apr 7 08:17:36 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 23:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > By the way, I wrote an exhaustive summary of the book "Professional > > Software Development" > > > > because I thought it was interesting. If people are interested, I > > could give it as a talk and answer questions from the point of view of > > the author. Alternatively, I could just blog it and save meeting time > > for something more Pythonic. I think the concept of "Professional Software Development" is germane to Python. One of the great things about teaching Python is that good engineering concepts fall right out of it, almost for free. So it would be interesting to me to try to relate Python with whatever the book has to say. I hope the book doesn't equate productivity to the number lines of code! What an unproductive concept. It's sort of a pet peeve of mine. Yesterday I trimmed out about 40 lines of code and improved readability and made my test interface more consistent. What a productive day that was! But I see that the program for next week is already posted, even though nothing seemed to really gel here! I think that figuring out the next talk, and the next, is a lot of pressure on someone. How can we fix that? Marilyn > > I've uploaded the slides here: > http://ironorchid.com/jjinux/articles/professional_software_engineering/ > > -jj > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com Fri Apr 7 08:38:13 2006 From: davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com (Monte Davidoff) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 23:38:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443608D5.4080705@alluvialsw.com> Marilyn Davis wrote: > > I hope the book doesn't equate productivity to the number lines of > code! What an unproductive concept. It's sort of a pet peeve of > mine. Yesterday I trimmed out about 40 lines of code and improved > readability and made my test interface more consistent. What a > productive day that was! If someone wants to measure productivity by lines of code, Python has a good story to tell. People have quoted studies to me showing that the number of debugged lines of code per day is roughly constant, independent of the language that you use. Generally speaking, I've found that it takes about an order of magnitude fewer LOC in Python to do a given task than in C, so Python allows you to be an order of magnitude more productive. Monte From rdm at cfcl.com Fri Apr 7 10:39:28 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 00:39:28 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: <443608D5.4080705@alluvialsw.com> References: <443608D5.4080705@alluvialsw.com> Message-ID: At 11:38 PM -0700 4/6/06, Monte Davidoff wrote: > Generally speaking, I've found that it takes about an order of > magnitude fewer LOC in Python to do a given task than in C, so > Python allows you to be an order of magnitude more productive. I think that this is true of scripting languages in general. My impression is that Perl and Python take about the same about of code to get things done, but that the appearance of the code is quite different. Many things that would be coded directly in Perl are typically done by method calls in Python. Interestingly, in skimming Ruby code, I continue to be surprised at how little code it requires to get things done. Like, about half as much as I would expect in an equivalent Perl script! At the same time, Ruby isn't infested by the "line noise" that seems common in many Perl programs. I think it might be fun to pick some small but interesting cases and have some Perl/Python/Ruby experts present and defend their own language's capabilities, restrictions, etc. I have found that any worthwhile language improves my capabilities for using other languages. So, I'd find this to be quite interesting... If others like the idea, I suspect that we could pull together a cross-language get-together... -r FYI- I'm mostly a Perl scripter these days, but I dive into PHP and Python at need, and have been trying to learn Ruby. -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 7 11:38:38 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 02:38:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership Message-ID: Marilyn's comments are excellent and I will add them to the forthcoming member survey. I had already said I would rerun the BayPIGgies member survey that I ran in 2003. Anyone with suggestions/strong opinions/pet topics/narks please do contact me. Marilyn's question: "What are your priorities in attending meetings" a) to learn something? b) to meet other people who use Python? c) to network? /job-shop? d) any other suggestions? "recruiter evening" is something we had kicked around but takes a lot of advance organizing and never happened. But I think the critical mass is there. >Do we have a statement of purpose? Please everyone reread the comprehensive email I sent after Mar mtg in response to the same question: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-March/000285.html This is what came out of 2003 survey. Clearly the membership and interests will have moved on. We will find out soon. >Maybe we could collectively figure a way to push Python into the schools? Seems like 'Python in education' has recently surfaced as a topic of interest. I will add that. Ruby on Rails, Plone and Twisted are other additions. Anything else? Re Marilyn's other comments: - the 'BayPIGgies' name is considered to be set in stone, this was discussed previously - off-mail discussion is discouraged if the topic of public interest, but otherwise not. This distinction has grey areas; I do not think this is a major issue, just netiquette. Hopefully we do not get to the point where we need SIGs. My personal opinion on meeting format: - my previous suggestion: categorise each meeting either 'Beginner', 'Advanced' or 'Expert'. This is important. Several people have come to meetings expecting a newbie topic and left scratching their heads and cursing. - job/book/training announcements before mtg are fine, 60 sec each max, limit 10 min. Post fulltext to list. Announcers, please state your name(!) and affiliation. - it would be best to crosspost the ACCU, East-Bay Python and other group notices in *advance* of BayPIGgies so as not to spend time redescribing the meeting notice. - as Wes comments we need a hardcore of moderators to give the thing form and keep it somehow focused and on track, structure the Q&A, add continuity between meetings. Volunteers needed. - signing in at Google takes serious time, so I suggest the Google meeting announcements should say "7:10 in lobby for signin for 7:30 start". Wes's comments about how to do it in 10sec were useful. How to decline the Google NDA is useful too. - snacks is a good point. The restaurant thing currently does not really work at either location, and that is a missed opportunity. Pizza at the meeting itself would probably be better, but pizza for 100 people would cost serious money. Wes suggests people would be opposed to even an optional voluntary member subscription(~$50/yr?), and BayPIGgies does not currently have tax-deductible status. Any solutions on this? Regards, Stephen From wescpy at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 13:35:34 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 04:35:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78b3a9580604070435m1c4b4136kb3b20e983462fdf8@mail.gmail.com> > announcements should say "7:10 in lobby for signin for 7:30 start". Wes's > comments about how to do it in 10sec were useful. How to decline the Google > NDA is useful too. the exact algorithm for signing into Google in < 4 secs is: 1) type first initial and last name 2) TAB through company, location, etc. and push the space bar to complete the form 3) ESC when presented with the NDA to decline it DONE. of course, this month's meeting is at IronPort, so you'll have to wait until next month to try it. :-) this way, hopefully we don't *start* meetings at 8pm. cheers, -wesley From bdbaddog at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 20:04:34 2006 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:04:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8540148a0604071104n1dc5d287g3a421df0a16b03e5@mail.gmail.com> On 4/7/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > - snacks is a good point. The restaurant thing currently does not really > work at either location, and that is a missed opportunity. Pizza at the > meeting itself would probably be better, but pizza for 100 people would cost > serious money. Wes suggests people would be opposed to even an optional > voluntary member subscription(~$50/yr?), and BayPIGgies does not currently > have tax-deductible status. Any solutions on this? Ask recruiters to foot the bill for snacks in order to present. They're looking at a 10-20% commision on hiring so it's a fair trade. -Bill From epalmore at pixar.com Fri Apr 7 20:20:12 2006 From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:20:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Software Engineer, (Objective C/Cocoa) @ Pixar Animation Studios References: Message-ID: > Software Engineer, (Objective C/Cocoa) > Pixar Animation Studios > Emeryville, CA > > Pixar Animation Studios combines creative and technical artistry to > create original stories in the medium of computer animation. Pixar > has created six of the most successful and beloved animated films > of all time: Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc., > Finding Nemo and The Incredibles. Pixar has won 18 Academy Awards? > and its six films have grossed more than $3.2 billion at the > worldwide box office to date. The Northern California studio will > release its next film, Cars, on June 9, 2006. > > Summary of Job: > > The Studio Tools Department is responsible for developing Pixar?s > in-house proprietary animation software. The Engineering Team is > looking for Mac software engineers to help create and maintain new > software for the studio. The position requires a deep understanding > of software application engineering, an ability to collaborate in a > cross-functional team of world-class developers, and skill in > designing and implementing robust, easy to maintain code. > > Responsibilities: > > ? Develop, implement, test and support software > ? Work effectively with a team of engineers and program managers. > ? Work with artists and developers to provide world class software > development and support for film production > > Qualifications: > > ? 5+ years of experience engineering in Objective-C / Cocoa & Python. > ? Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or equivalent > ? Experience working with technical and non-technical software users > ? Strong OS X application development experience > ? Experience developing multimedia applications used by creative > professionals a plus > ? Experience with OS X multimedia architecture and APIs including > Quicktime, Core Audio, and Core VIdeo > ? Commitment to creating world class production tools > ? Strong problem solving skills with high attention to detail and > quality > ? Excellent verbal and written communication skills > ? Proven ability to work with a team to deliver high quality > software in a fast paced, dynamic, deadline oriented environment. > > To apply please go to www.pixar.com Click on "Company Info" then > "Jobs." > > Pixar is an Equal Opportunity Employer. > > From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Apr 7 20:48:39 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:48:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <8540148a0604071104n1dc5d287g3a421df0a16b03e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8540148a0604071104n1dc5d287g3a421df0a16b03e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060407184839.GA25013@panix.com> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006, William Deegan wrote: > > Ask recruiters to foot the bill for snacks in order to present. > They're looking at a 10-20% commision on hiring so it's a fair trade. I'm not aware that we've had recruiters at BayPIGgies meetings; has that been something new recently? I mean, when Google used the meeting to formally recruit people, they did provide dinner. ;-) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From bdbaddog at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 21:29:52 2006 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 12:29:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <20060407184839.GA25013@panix.com> References: <8540148a0604071104n1dc5d287g3a421df0a16b03e5@mail.gmail.com> <20060407184839.GA25013@panix.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0604071229l7f48c10dxdee605a12159a853@mail.gmail.com> On 4/7/06, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Apr 07, 2006, William Deegan wrote: > > > > Ask recruiters to foot the bill for snacks in order to present. > > They're looking at a 10-20% commision on hiring so it's a fair trade. > > I'm not aware that we've had recruiters at BayPIGgies meetings; has that > been something new recently? I mean, when Google used the meeting to > formally recruit people, they did provide dinner. ;-) I've never made a meeting, so I can't comment, but from reading the mailing list it sounded like there were such in some of the recent meetings. (unfortunately thursday evenings are rarely free for me) -Bill From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Apr 7 23:28:24 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:28:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <8540148a0604071229l7f48c10dxdee605a12159a853@mail.gmail.com> References: <8540148a0604071104n1dc5d287g3a421df0a16b03e5@mail.gmail.com> <20060407184839.GA25013@panix.com> <8540148a0604071229l7f48c10dxdee605a12159a853@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060407212824.GB26346@panix.com> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006, William Deegan wrote: > On 4/7/06, Aahz wrote: >> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006, William Deegan wrote: >>> >>> Ask recruiters to foot the bill for snacks in order to present. >>> They're looking at a 10-20% commision on hiring so it's a fair trade. >> >> I'm not aware that we've had recruiters at BayPIGgies meetings; has that >> been something new recently? I mean, when Google used the meeting to >> formally recruit people, they did provide dinner. ;-) > > I've never made a meeting, so I can't comment, but from reading the > mailing list it sounded like there were such in some of the recent > meetings. (unfortunately thursday evenings are rarely free for me) In the past, at-meeting recruiting has been done personally by people who are happy working at a company and want to encourage other people in the community to join them. As long as that continues, I wish to put as few barriers in the way of at-meeting recruiting as possible. BayPIGgies is about the local human face of Python. I do think the recent suggestion of putting announcements at the end of the meeting is good: it gets the meeting going quickly; people who aren't interested in announcements can leave; and people who are interested can find the annnouncer immediately after the announcement. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From wescpy at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 23:38:26 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:38:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <20060407212824.GB26346@panix.com> References: <8540148a0604071104n1dc5d287g3a421df0a16b03e5@mail.gmail.com> <20060407184839.GA25013@panix.com> <8540148a0604071229l7f48c10dxdee605a12159a853@mail.gmail.com> <20060407212824.GB26346@panix.com> Message-ID: <78b3a9580604071438sd92b270na5e79076b239391d@mail.gmail.com> > I do think the recent suggestion of putting announcements at the end of > the meeting is good: it gets the meeting going quickly; people who aren't > interested in announcements can leave; and people who are interested can > find the annnouncer immediately after the announcement. i think this is the way we used to do it. we eventually migrated announcements to the front because we had recruiters coming whose sole purpose is to announce the availability of Python jobs, hand out their biz cards and leave... they (obviously) were not interested in the contents of our meeting. i still believe we can move the announcements till the end. if recruiters want to come and plug their jobs, they can just show up at 9pm. :-) -wesley From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Apr 8 02:14:46 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Rich Morin wrote: > At 11:38 PM -0700 4/6/06, Monte Davidoff wrote: > > Generally speaking, I've found that it takes about an order of > > magnitude fewer LOC in Python to do a given task than in C, so > > Python allows you to be an order of magnitude more productive. > > I think that this is true of scripting languages in general. My > impression is that Perl and Python take about the same about of > code to get things done, but that the appearance of the code is > quite different. Many things that would be coded directly in > Perl are typically done by method calls in Python. > > Interestingly, in skimming Ruby code, I continue to be surprised > at how little code it requires to get things done. Like, about > half as much as I would expect in an equivalent Perl script! At > the same time, Ruby isn't infested by the "line noise" that seems > common in many Perl programs. > > I think it might be fun to pick some small but interesting cases > and have some Perl/Python/Ruby experts present and defend their > own language's capabilities, restrictions, etc. I have found > that any worthwhile language improves my capabilities for using > other languages. So, I'd find this to be quite interesting... > > If others like the idea, I suspect that we could pull together a > cross-language get-together... I'd be very interested in this but I imagine that the event would be a nightmare for the Perl defender. Even the Ruby person would have a tough time in a room of python lovers. But, if willing suckers came forward, it would be very interesting, I'm sure. Marilyn > > -r > > FYI- I'm mostly a Perl scripter these days, but I dive into PHP > and Python at need, and have been trying to learn Ruby. > -- From rdm at cfcl.com Sat Apr 8 03:25:59 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:25:59 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:14 PM -0700 4/7/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > I'd be very interested in this but I imagine that the event would be a > nightmare for the Perl defender. Even the Ruby person would have a > tough time in a room of python lovers. > > But, if willing suckers came forward, it would be very interesting, > I'm sure. Well, my intention was to invite the local Perlies and Rubyists to attend, as well. -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From deirdre at deirdre.net Sat Apr 8 02:35:25 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:35:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2006, at 5:14 PM, Marilyn Davis wrote: > I'd be very interested in this but I imagine that the event would be a > nightmare for the Perl defender. Even the Ruby person would have a > tough time in a room of python lovers. Well, Rich has his reasons for liking Perl, and we both have our reasons for liking Ruby. :) -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Apr 8 02:46:05 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > On Apr 7, 2006, at 5:14 PM, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > > I'd be very interested in this but I imagine that the event would be a > > nightmare for the Perl defender. Even the Ruby person would have a > > tough time in a room of python lovers. > > Well, Rich has his reasons for liking Perl, and we both have our > reasons for liking Ruby. :) OK then. Let's do it! Does anyone think it's a bad idea? Speak up now. So, what's the process? 1. Set a date for a few months in advance. 2. Decide who will be the panelists. How many from each language? 3. Invite the local Ruby and Perl Users' Groups. 4. Invent a list of common tasks and idioms to use as discussion-starters? Like that? Or what were you thinking? Might you two be willing to be on the panel for those languages and/or find panelists? Marilyn From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Sat Apr 8 03:01:45 2006 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 18:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > OK then. Let's do it! Does anyone think it's a bad idea? Speak up > now. > > So, what's the process? > > 1. Set a date for a few months in advance. > > 2. Decide who will be the panelists. How many from each language? > > 3. Invite the local Ruby and Perl Users' Groups. > > 4. Invent a list of common tasks and idioms to use as > discussion-starters? Hi Marilyn, Would this be something, though, that could be handled in a mailing list setting? Not that I don't like personal human-to-human contact, mind you. *grin* But I haven't heard anything here that wouldn't preclude some pre-discussion on a mailing list. Unfortunately, I probably won't be in the area when this all happens, and I'm still a budding PLT Scheme newbie, but if I could contribute something from the PLT Scheme point of view, I'd be happy to offer that perspective. (It would probably help motivate me to learn the system more thoroughly, too. *grin*) So some kind of remote participation in this would be nice. From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Apr 8 03:25:09 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 18:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Danny Yoo wrote: > > OK then. Let's do it! Does anyone think it's a bad idea? Speak up > > now. > > > > So, what's the process? > > > > 1. Set a date for a few months in advance. > > > > 2. Decide who will be the panelists. How many from each language? > > > > 3. Invite the local Ruby and Perl Users' Groups. > > > > 4. Invent a list of common tasks and idioms to use as > > discussion-starters? > > > Hi Marilyn, > > Would this be something, though, that could be handled in a mailing list > setting? Not that I don't like personal human-to-human contact, mind you. > *grin* But I haven't heard anything here that wouldn't preclude some > pre-discussion on a mailing list. Well, yeh. I guess that's the problem we're having. For any learning experience, many of us would save a lot of time and gas by just googling and studying at our desks. And there are some great python lists for asking questions from experts. There's no reason to confine ourselves to experts in the Bay Area when we need an answer. The internet environment is so good, so efficient, so useful. But we're trying to find fun and interesting things to do together, face-to-face. We're looking for excuses to rub elbows. Or is face-to-face obsolete? Maybe we should be asking ourselves that. > > Unfortunately, I probably won't be in the area when this all happens, and > I'm still a budding PLT Scheme newbie, but if I could contribute something > from the PLT Scheme point of view, I'd be happy to offer that perspective. > (It would probably help motivate me to learn the system more thoroughly, > too. *grin*) So some kind of remote participation in this would be nice. > I see. Well, that would be a different activity, an online language debate? Gee, that sounds like a useful thing, maybe an updated version of the old "hello world" site concept. How do you imagine that playing out? Is there a web tool that suits itself to such an activity? Can we ply that into a wiki or something? But, what about face-to-face? Marilyn > -- From ben at groovie.org Sat Apr 8 03:48:29 2006 From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 18:48:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14B62AAE-17EB-47FE-800F-72544902E397@groovie.org> On Apr 7, 2006, at 6:25 PM, Marilyn Davis wrote: > Well, yeh. I guess that's the problem we're having. For any learning > experience, many of us would save a lot of time and gas by just > googling and studying at our desks. And there are some great python > lists for asking questions from experts. There's no reason to confine > ourselves to experts in the Bay Area when we need an answer. I'd like to think Python is easy enough that there's few questions if any a few local Python programmers shouldn't be able to answer. > The internet environment is so good, so efficient, so useful. For some things, sure. I've had more than a few 2 week internet conversations over many e-mails, to resolve discussions that take mere minutes in a face-to-face setting. > But we're trying to find fun and interesting things to do together, > face-to-face. We're looking for excuses to rub elbows. > > Or is face-to-face obsolete? Maybe we should be asking ourselves > that. Nope, it definitely isn't. :) > I see. Well, that would be a different activity, an online language > debate? Gee, that sounds like a useful thing, maybe an updated > version of the old "hello world" site concept. Debates are the last thing you want to happen on the internet... they rarely shed as much light as having the same debate in person and usually generate a lot more flak in the process whether through misunderstandings or people taking sarcasm seriously because text and a few smiley's is a lousy substitution for facial expressions and tone of voice. > But, what about face-to-face? Rather than have a debate, why not let each group pick something they think their language provides a unique way of solving it. Let each group/individual give a short presentation on the problem, the solution, and why they believe the language they're using makes it easier. Then afterwards, others can maybe give a few pointers about how they'd do it in Language X, etc. This way no one is shoe-horned into making a "hello world" or some other snippet that likely won't show off what truly is attractive about the language. I think this could also apply if we have a Python web programming comparison (as some other Python user groups have done). Someone else mentioned the groups name being somewhat unprofessional. I'd like to mention that I specifically avoid mentioning the name whenever I talk about the group, cause going to "bay piggies" has about zero appeal for anyone I know, even hardcore programmers. Is that really the best name to be using? How did a piggie get associated with the cool image of a Python? ;) Cheers, Ben From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sat Apr 8 04:07:48 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:07:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <14B62AAE-17EB-47FE-800F-72544902E397@groovie.org> Message-ID: >From: Ben Bangert > >Someone else mentioned the groups name being somewhat unprofessional. >I'd like to mention that I specifically avoid mentioning the name >whenever I talk about the group, cause going to "bay piggies" has >about zero appeal for anyone I know, even hardcore programmers. Is >that really the best name to be using? How did a piggie get >associated with the cool image of a Python? ;) "PIG" = "Python Interest Group" This old chestnut never goes away, many have strong opinions on this. You might propose changing the group name to something like either: - "BayPython" (professional-sounding and very intuitive) - "BayPyUG" (consistent with other US-based group naming as per http://wiki.python.org/moin/LocalUserGroups). - "SFBayPython" (disambiguates from Seattle, Virginia, Mass etc.) How shall we resolve this one, do we take an email-based vote or something? I could even include a vote on the name in the forthcoming member survey I've been preparing. (obviously just a non-binding opinion poll, before all of you jump on me) Suggestions? Stephen From DennisR at dair.com Sat Apr 8 04:04:23 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:04:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <20060407212824.GB26346@panix.com> References: <8540148a0604071229l7f48c10dxdee605a12159a853@mail.gmail.com> <8540148a0604071104n1dc5d287g3a421df0a16b03e5@mail.gmail.com> <20060407184839.GA25013@panix.com> <8540148a0604071229l7f48c10dxdee605a12159a853@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060407182217.00bb3d18@localhost> At 02:28 PM 4/7/2006, you wrote: >I do think the recent suggestion of putting announcements at the end of >the meeting is good: it gets the meeting going quickly; people who aren't >interested in announcements can leave; and people who are interested can >find the annnouncer immediately after the announcement. Thanks. I have been thinking more about the suggestion and would like to refine it. The early '80s Homebrew Computer held (wildly IMO) successful meetings with no speaker at all. Their meetings started with an hour or so of what we call "announcements". Announcements, per se, are not the problem. Indeed, we would improve our announcement process along the Homebrew model so very few would want to leave. Homebrew formalized the announcement process: First there was a "mapping" session followed by a "random access" session. In the mapping session, people would get up and announce the topic of what they had to say. They did *not* expound, discuss the subject matter, or offer verbal bullet points. This was the "news" equivalent of reading the headline only. Questions, slow delivery, and follow-up from the floor were all squelched by the moderator. The mapping sessions only purpose was to let the audience know who they wanted to contact during the immediately following random access session. In random access, people would scramble to go talk (or not) with people who made announcements during mapping. I think this model is something to contemplate. A mapping session is a mapping session... Topic announcements are *brief* (~60 seconds tops) and without followup. The moderator cuts off the long-winded. In Homebrew, a substantial fraction of the audience ended up making an announcement (50%?). The mapping -> random access paradigm worked to efficiently connect Homebrew attendees, one to another. I think there is a potential here to learn more about each other. Now there may well be exceptional short discussion or presentation items of general interest (e.g. a report). Fine. Let's schedule them on the agenda and with a discussion leader for the topic who is responsible for coherence and time budget. Regards, Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From deirdre at deirdre.net Sat Apr 8 04:33:55 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 19:33:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87D35E51-D488-4D99-B7B5-BC99FD887CE9@deirdre.net> On Apr 7, 2006, at 7:07 PM, Stephen McInerney wrote: >> From: Ben Bangert >> >> Someone else mentioned the groups name being somewhat unprofessional. >> I'd like to mention that I specifically avoid mentioning the name >> whenever I talk about the group, cause going to "bay piggies" has >> about zero appeal for anyone I know, even hardcore programmers. Is >> that really the best name to be using? How did a piggie get >> associated with the cool image of a Python? ;) > > "PIG" = "Python Interest Group" > > This old chestnut never goes away, many have strong opinions on this. I founded (and named) the group. fwiw. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From p at ulmcnett.com Sat Apr 8 04:53:46 2006 From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:53:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443725BA.10007@ulmcnett.com> Stephen McInerney wrote: >> From: Ben Bangert >> >> Someone else mentioned the groups name being somewhat unprofessional. >> I'd like to mention that I specifically avoid mentioning the name >> whenever I talk about the group, cause going to "bay piggies" has >> about zero appeal for anyone I know, even hardcore programmers. Is >> that really the best name to be using? How did a piggie get >> associated with the cool image of a Python? ;) > > "PIG" = "Python Interest Group" > > This old chestnut never goes away, many have strong opinions on this. > > You might propose changing the group name to something like either: > - "BayPython" (professional-sounding and very intuitive) > - "BayPyUG" (consistent with other US-based group naming as per > http://wiki.python.org/moin/LocalUserGroups). > - "SFBayPython" (disambiguates from Seattle, Virginia, Mass etc.) What about "Silicon Valley Python Interest Group", shortened to "Silicon Valley Py" or "SVPy". I think "San Francisco" doesn't describe the region generally enough, "San Francisco Bay Area" is too long, "Bay" or "Bay Area" isn't specific enough, but "Silicon Valley" is just about right. Then there's "Silicon Python of Love" but that brings up other images . > How shall we resolve this one, do we take an email-based vote or something? > I could even include a vote on the name in the forthcoming member survey > I've been preparing. > (obviously just a non-binding opinion poll, before all of you jump on me) > Suggestions? Brainstorm on name suggestions, either at an upcoming meeting or on the list, or both, and have a few iterations of each person distributing their 20 points among the names they like the best. The top x in each iteration get to move on to the next iteration. 10 minutes for the brainstorm, a white board or virtual equivalent to scribble the names, and during the meeting time people quietly walk up and allocate their 20 points, and 5 minutes before meeting end some volunteer adds up the points and determines the final four, erasing all other contenders. Then 5 minutes for a show-of-hands vote for the winner. Or something like that. Complexity could be added by making it a secret ballot. BayPIGgies isn't a bad name, though, it is kind of fun. -- Paul McNett http://paulmcnett.com http://dabodev.com From kael at sonic.net Sat Apr 8 05:55:57 2006 From: kael at sonic.net (Kael Fischer) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:55:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: <14B62AAE-17EB-47FE-800F-72544902E397@groovie.org> Message-ID: On 4/7/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > >From: Ben Bangert > > > >Someone else mentioned the groups name being somewhat unprofessional. > >I'd like to mention that I specifically avoid mentioning the name > >whenever I talk about the group, cause going to "bay piggies" has > >about zero appeal for anyone I know, even hardcore programmers. Is > >that really the best name to be using? How did a piggie get > >associated with the cool image of a Python? ;) I like 'Baypiggies.' As an academic, whenever I talk about the group, I specifically make a point of mentioning the group's name. -Kael -- Kael Fischer, Ph.D DeRisi Lab - Univ. Of California San Francisco From rdm at cfcl.com Sat Apr 8 07:43:06 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 21:43:06 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: <14B62AAE-17EB-47FE-800F-72544902E397@groovie.org> References: <14B62AAE-17EB-47FE-800F-72544902E397@groovie.org> Message-ID: At 6:48 PM -0700 4/7/06, Ben Bangert wrote: > Rather than have a debate, why not let each group pick something > they think their language provides a unique way of solving ... I like this. Alternatively, it might be interesting for an expert in a given language to discuss a deficiency in it. With a bit of warning, the experts for the other languages could discuss whether and how their own language resolves the issue. -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From landauer at got.net Sat Apr 8 20:26:20 2006 From: landauer at got.net (Doug Landauer) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 11:26:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <443725BA.10007@ulmcnett.com> References: <443725BA.10007@ulmcnett.com> Message-ID: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> On Apr 7, 2006, at 7:53 PM, Paul McNett wrote: > What about "Silicon Valley Python Interest Group", shortened to > "Silicon > Valley Py" or "SVPy". Good thought, and my favorite of the contenders, if the BayPIGgies name were to be retired. However, I'm certain that it would be shortened in actual usage to "SiliPy", pronounced "silly pie", and would therefore be only marginally better than BayPIGgies is. A special bonus is that silipy is apparently the malagasy word for panties. Names are harder than most people think. Deirdre came up with one which is unique, friendly, memorable, cute, pronounceable, easy to explain, and inoffensive. I guess the main drawbacks to this name are that some consider it unprofessional, and the capitalization that I feel obliged to use is pretty funky. Minor drawbacks IMHO, though YMMV. If a "naming poll" is taken, be sure to include "no change" as one of the choices. -- Doug L. From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Apr 8 22:16:41 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> Message-ID: Wow, lots going on here, and lots of good suggestions. Maybe the name thing is the most pressing so that we can register our opinions in Stephen's survey. How about if the survey includes 2 questions: 1. Would you like to change the name? 2. Please rate each name: BayPython BayPyUG Silicon Valley Python Interest Group SFBayPython Are these all that have been suggested so far? Can anyone think of more? Should we add: BayPIG I don't mind that there is a silly interpretation, I only mind that there is no non-silly interpretation. Should we take more time to think about the name? Stephen, is there a reason why we are in a hurry to do the survey? Then, we need a rule for our decision-making. I would think that a big thing like a name-change might require a 2/3 majority. Does that sound right? And I would suggest that we are asked to rate each suggested name individually, on its own merits, rather than to rank them. That way, if we like several, we are not forced to make an artificial choice between them. And the resulting data, although it could produce ambiguous results, will be truthful and will please the most people. It is usual for a survey/poll of an email list to produce less than 10% turnout. So people need to be prepared to accept the possibility that a small number of people will make the decisions. The important thing is that everyone is invited to participate. Does this sound ok to people? If you want to persuade people to choose a particular name, I would guess that now is the time to speak up. Also, I'm assuming that, to change the name, we only have to ask python.org to change the name of the list and beg for some new_name.python.org web space? Or can someone please tell us what we are taking on here? Marilyn From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sat Apr 8 22:31:10 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 13:31:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Marilyn, >Maybe the name thing is the most pressing so that we can register our >opinions in Stephen's survey. I could add a name option to the survey but this is such a hot-button topic that might be unwise, and the survey is quite long. I can always create a separate survey "BayPIGgies name poll" at no extra charge, With just your 2 questions. A 2-question poll would probably get higher response rate, too. Comments below: >How about if the survey includes 2 questions: > >1. Would you like to change the name? > >2. Please rate each name: > > BayPython > BayPyUG > Silicon Valley Python Interest Group > SFBayPython > >Are these all that have been suggested so far? Can anyone think of >more? SVPy was suggested. >Should we add: BayPIG Probably no point. >Should we take more time to think about the name? Stephen, is there a >reason why we are in a hurry to do the survey? Yes. I want to get it live by 4/9 and get some initial feedback by 4/13 meeting where I want to encourage people and explain what the intent of running it is. Also will have paper copies for people who don't want to fill it out online or email. SurveyMonkey charges me a $20 monthly fee and I want it complete by 4/30 so I can tabulate by 5/7 for the meeting. So there are multiple constraints. >Then, we need a rule for our decision-making. > >I would think that a big thing like a name-change might require a 2/3 >majority. Does that sound right? -> Deirdre, Aahz, whatever the charter says Stephen From jim at well.com Sat Apr 8 22:37:40 2006 From: jim at well.com (jim stockford) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:37:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> References: <443725BA.10007@ulmcnett.com> <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> Message-ID: <85AF0502-C73F-11DA-B15D-000A95EA5592@well.com> stick with baypiggies, its got name recognition, it's got reasonable meaning: bay == bay area pig == python interest group ies == people in the group On Apr 8, 2006, at 11:26 AM, Doug Landauer wrote: > On Apr 7, 2006, at 7:53 PM, Paul McNett wrote: >> What about "Silicon Valley Python Interest Group", shortened to >> "Silicon >> Valley Py" or "SVPy". > > Good thought, and my favorite of the contenders, if the BayPIGgies name > were to be retired. > > However, I'm certain that it would be shortened in actual usage to > "SiliPy", pronounced "silly pie", and would therefore be only > marginally better than BayPIGgies is. A special bonus is that silipy > is apparently the malagasy word for panties. > > Names are harder than most people think. Deirdre came up with one > which is unique, friendly, memorable, cute, pronounceable, easy to > explain, and inoffensive. I guess the main drawbacks to this name are > that some consider it unprofessional, and the capitalization that I > feel obliged to use is pretty funky. Minor drawbacks IMHO, though > YMMV. > > If a "naming poll" is taken, be sure to include "no change" as one of > the choices. > > -- Doug L. > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jim at well.com Sat Apr 8 22:33:17 2006 From: jim at well.com (jim stockford) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:33:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i'd prefer breaking out decision points in separate email messages. my tax attorney described several tacks to take on associations. The least formal, of course, is ad hoc and hell with formalities. The next step up is to get to city and/or county offices and declare an association: probably needs declaration in news media a la Doing Business As (DBA) requirements. On Apr 8, 2006, at 1:16 PM, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > Wow, lots going on here, and lots of good suggestions. > > Maybe the name thing is the most pressing so that we can register our > opinions in Stephen's survey. > > How about if the survey includes 2 questions: > > 1. Would you like to change the name? > > 2. Please rate each name: > > BayPython > BayPyUG > Silicon Valley Python Interest Group > SFBayPython > > Are these all that have been suggested so far? Can anyone think of > more? > > Should we add: > > BayPIG > > I don't mind that there is a silly interpretation, I only mind that > there is no non-silly interpretation. > > Should we take more time to think about the name? Stephen, is there a > reason why we are in a hurry to do the survey? > > Then, we need a rule for our decision-making. > > I would think that a big thing like a name-change might require a 2/3 > majority. Does that sound right? > > And I would suggest that we are asked to rate each suggested name > individually, on its own merits, rather than to rank them. > > That way, if we like several, we are not forced to make an artificial > choice between them. And the resulting data, although it could > produce ambiguous results, will be truthful and will please the most > people. > > It is usual for a survey/poll of an email list to produce less than > 10% turnout. So people need to be prepared to accept the possibility > that a small number of people will make the decisions. The important > thing is that everyone is invited to participate. > > Does this sound ok to people? > > If you want to persuade people to choose a particular name, I would > guess that now is the time to speak up. > > Also, I'm assuming that, to change the name, we only have to ask > python.org to change the name of the list and beg for some > new_name.python.org web space? > > Or can someone please tell us what we are taking on here? > > Marilyn > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jim at well.com Sat Apr 8 22:42:42 2006 From: jim at well.com (jim stockford) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:42:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies leadership In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060407182217.00bb3d18@localhost> References: <8540148a0604071229l7f48c10dxdee605a12159a853@mail.gmail.com> <8540148a0604071104n1dc5d287g3a421df0a16b03e5@mail.gmail.com> <20060407184839.GA25013@panix.com> <8540148a0604071229l7f48c10dxdee605a12159a853@mail.gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060407182217.00bb3d18@localhost> Message-ID: <39CF7240-C740-11DA-B15D-000A95EA5592@well.com> there's a story that in one mapping session someone announced something a bit inaudibly; Lee (Felsenstein) asked "what?" When the person explained, Lee replied "Oh, a Forth interest group, no wonder we couldn't understand what you meant." It's just a story. Shouldn't apply except maybe to Perl. On Apr 7, 2006, at 7:04 PM, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 02:28 PM 4/7/2006, you wrote: >> I do think the recent suggestion of putting announcements at the end >> of >> the meeting is good: it gets the meeting going quickly; people who >> aren't >> interested in announcements can leave; and people who are interested >> can >> find the annnouncer immediately after the announcement. > > Thanks. I have been thinking more about the suggestion and would like > to > refine it. > > The early '80s Homebrew Computer held (wildly IMO) successful meetings > with > no speaker at all. Their meetings started with an hour or so of what > we > call "announcements". Announcements, per se, are not the problem. > Indeed, > we would improve our announcement process along the Homebrew model so > very > few would want to leave. > > Homebrew formalized the announcement process: First there was a > "mapping" > session followed by a "random access" session. In the mapping session, > people would get up and announce the topic of what they had to say. > They > did *not* expound, discuss the subject matter, or offer verbal bullet > points. This was the "news" equivalent of reading the headline > only. Questions, slow delivery, and follow-up from the floor were all > squelched by the moderator. > > The mapping sessions only purpose was to let the audience know who they > wanted to contact during the immediately following random access > session. In random access, people would scramble to go talk (or not) > with > people who made announcements during mapping. > > I think this model is something to contemplate. A mapping session is a > mapping session... Topic announcements are *brief* (~60 seconds tops) > and > without followup. The moderator cuts off the long-winded. > > In Homebrew, a substantial fraction of the audience ended up making an > announcement (50%?). The mapping -> random access paradigm worked to > efficiently connect Homebrew attendees, one to another. I think there > is a > potential here to learn more about each other. > > Now there may well be exceptional short discussion or presentation > items of > general interest (e.g. a report). Fine. Let's schedule them on the > agenda > and with a discussion leader for the topic who is responsible for > coherence > and time budget. > > Regards, Dennis > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Apr 8 22:51:58 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:51:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> Message-ID: <20060408205157.GA1212@panix.com> On Sat, Apr 08, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > It is usual for a survey/poll of an email list to produce less than > 10% turnout. So people need to be prepared to accept the possibility > that a small number of people will make the decisions. The important > thing is that everyone is invited to participate. > > Does this sound ok to people? Not really. I believe in apathy as a force for good: if that few people believe something is wrong with "BayPIGgies" as the name for the group, they should not enforce their will. I think any referendum on the name must have a quorum of at least one third of the group, and I think that the new name must achieve a solid majority of that quorum in addition to 2/3 of the voters agreeing that they dislike "BayPIGgies". On a separate note, I think that any voting mechanism must have as few barriers as possible. The survey that Stephen is setting up requires cookies and JavaScript; that is not acceptable for a vote on the group name. Finally, I believe in unranked approval voting as a mechanism. The survey should have three questions: * Do you think that the name of the BayPIGgies group should be changed? Yes/No/Don't Care * What names are acceptable to you (list all of them; do NOT list any names you dislike)? * What names do you hate (list all of them)? -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From DennisR at dair.com Sat Apr 8 23:07:10 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 14:07:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> At 01:16 PM 4/8/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >Also, I'm assuming that, to change the name, we only have to ask >python.org to change the name of the list and beg for some >new_name.python.org web space? What do you do with the baypiggies.net domain name, the 257 links to it, and the page rank of 5 it already enjoys? IMO, you need to register the domain name for whatever the "new" name is. >Or can someone please tell us what we are taking on here? I think this is poking at a tar baby: we will get stuck fixing what is not really broken. IMO, it is way more important *being* an important organization rather than *sounding* like an important organization. A recent posting from ACCU here listed their upcoming talks: Guido van Rossum Apr. 5 A Look At Python's Future Greg Stein Jun 14 Python at Google Uhhh... Why aren't these talks being given to BayPiggies? What are the important things we can do to improve our program and meetings? Name change does not even register. Bluntly, I think taking on a name change is the wrong problem, a waste of time. The right problem: upgrading our meetings. Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From ju.1996 at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 01:05:10 2006 From: ju.1996 at gmail.com (Julio Santos) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 16:05:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> Message-ID: On 4/8/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > [...] > Bluntly, I think taking on a name change is the wrong problem, a waste of > time. The right problem: upgrading our meetings. I'm new to the list (and python) and looking forward to my first meeting. I must say I'm glad at least someone else feels the way I do about this. -- Julio http://morgane.com From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sun Apr 9 02:33:28 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:33:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <20060408205157.GA1212@panix.com> Message-ID: Hi Aahz, >From: Aahz The member survey will not include a poll on the name, for reasons of timeliness. Also I am happy to let others moderate the issue. Four comments on this ongoing discussion on group name: 1) I agree with Dennis that this is definitely not the most important issue and maybe we can table it for future resolution (June?) 2) you will get three different results and constituencies if you ask the same question on the list, at an Ironport meeting or at a Google meeting. 3) almost noone understands whether our group has a charter and what the decision-making process for such fundamental decisions is. 4) to a considerable extent, the naming options depend on the (evolving) geographical identity of the group (SF? SV? Bay? South Bay? unstated?), and this is something we do not currently understand and should get a lot more insight into from the survey (e.g. for example, is there a subgroup of people who want to split off a EB/NB group meeting in (say) Oakland/Berkeley/Fremont/? in an alternate week of the month?) >On a separate note, I think that any voting mechanism must have as few >barriers as possible. The survey that Stephen is setting up requires >cookies and JavaScript; that is not acceptable for a vote on the group >name. The survey will *not* require cookies and JS (if you don't do it via SurveyMonkey), since I am volunteering to provide all 332 members with multiple alternatives (email or paper) at my own extra labor and inconvenience. We already verified it works with IE, Netscape/Mozilla + Firefox; but not Lynx (no JS support). I mailed you the instructions already and it will be announced list-wide tomorrow (04/09). I think this setup accomodates as many people as I humanly can manage. For any 2007 survey we can discuss improvements. Best regards, Stephen From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Sun Apr 9 03:38:44 2006 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 19:38:44 -0600 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> Message-ID: > I think this is poking at a tar baby: we will get stuck fixing what is > not > really broken. IMO, it is way more important *being* an important > organization rather than *sounding* like an important organization. > > A recent posting from ACCU here listed their upcoming talks: > > Guido van Rossum Apr. 5 A Look At Python's Future > Greg Stein Jun 14 Python at Google > > Uhhh... Why aren't these talks being given to BayPiggies? What are the > important things we can do to improve our program and meetings? Name > change does not even register. > > Bluntly, I think taking on a name change is the wrong problem, a waste of > time. The right problem: upgrading our meetings. > > Dennis That is my feeling. I think we should focus on soliciting quality presentations and setting interesting agenda. I don't know anyone who decline to join the group because it is called baypiggies. Wai Yip From marilyn at deliberate.com Sun Apr 9 05:22:02 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > Hi Aahz, > > >From: Aahz > > The member survey will not include a poll on the name, for reasons of > timeliness. > Also I am happy to let others moderate the issue. > > Four comments on this ongoing discussion on group name: > 1) I agree with Dennis that this is definitely not the most important issue > and maybe we can table it for future resolution (June?) Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I think too much like software, but I think software and people-structures have a lot in common. If the architecture is broken, we'll always be limping along with the features. Things will never go smoothly, never make real sense. It will not be a fun place to participate. The March meeting was a shocker for me. It was almost my first meeting. I gave a talk a few months ago, and I went to a newbie night a few years ago, but that was all. For the March meeting, I only came a mile or so, but I regretted it. I can't imagine what someone would feel who drove from further away, or someone who ventured to a meeting for the very first time. So yes, something needs fixing. But what? And why? Jim Stockford said that we should keep the name because it has name recognition. I'm not sure why we care about that. We are not selling anything. Maybe you can explain, Jim? >From my point of view, the thing about Python that is revolutionary and profoundly correct is that backward-compatibility is a second-class priority. I guess I think that in general, time is running out on the human race and it's time to get things right. I want to participate in a culture that understands this, and walks the talk. When I first heard "Bay Piggies" it needed explaining and the speaker was embarrassed by the name. I can't say it to someone without having to give a boring explanation, and it's never what I really want to talk about. Every conversation is burdened with a little package of off-topic silliness, a slightly embarrassing moment and a waste of thought. Another thing I love about Python, as a teacher, is that there is nothing to apologize for or be embarrassed about. So why should we, as a group, hang a burden on Python? Is there a charter? I don't see anything about it on the web. Am I looking in the wrong place? Dennis also mentions the ACCU and the classy Python talks going on there. Check them out and you'll see that they have an architecture to the group. It really is a necessary thing to attract serious volunteers and remain long-term viable. So I think that the question to ask ourselves is, would this group do better if there was a straight-forward name and a charter/by-laws with a mechanism for decision-making? I think so. So I'm trying to make it happen. About voting. Aahz, when we are ready to set the poll, I can bring up an email-based poll on the legacy eVote software that I run at deliberate.com. My colleague will make a little web page front end for it so that people who prefer to vote by browser can. The software will only allow list members to vote, will send you a receipt for your vote, let you withdraw or change your vote. And it will let us all see how everyone voted, if we want to set it up that way. This is always my preference, unless we are voting on people. > 2) you will get three different results and constituencies if you ask the > same question on the list, at an Ironport meeting or at a Google meeting. > 3) almost noone understands whether our group has a charter and what the > decision-making process for such fundamental decisions is. > 4) to a considerable extent, the naming options depend on the > (evolving) geographical identity of the group (SF? SV? Bay? South Bay? > unstated?), > and this is something we do not currently understand and should get > a lot more insight into from the survey (e.g. for example, is there > a subgroup of people who want to split off a EB/NB group meeting > in (say) Oakland/Berkeley/Fremont/? in an alternate week of the month?) I look forward to the survey results and I hope everyone will try to participate. But, about participation, on an email list we have have no clue about how many people actually are reading the list at all. I'm subscribed to some lists that I usually just route to a folder and never look at. Sometimes I do that with this list. So there's no way to know how many people to figure the percentage of participation. Either we have to accept that, or be unable to make a decision as a group. > > >On a separate note, I think that any voting mechanism must have as few > >barriers as possible. The survey that Stephen is setting up requires > >cookies and JavaScript; that is not acceptable for a vote on the group > >name. > > The survey will *not* require cookies and JS (if you don't do it via > SurveyMonkey), > since I am volunteering to provide all 332 members with multiple > alternatives > (email or paper) at my own extra labor and inconvenience. We already > verified it > works with IE, Netscape/Mozilla + Firefox; but not Lynx (no JS support). > I mailed you the instructions already and it will be announced list-wide > tomorrow (04/09). > I think this setup accomodates as many people as I humanly can manage. > For any 2007 survey we can discuss improvements. Stephen, you are doing an amazing job. I don't see that we have any way to know who we are except as a result of the big task you have taken on. Still hoping for a better future, Marilyn > > Best regards, > Stephen > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Apr 9 05:41:10 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:41:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python and progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060409034110.GA22989@panix.com> [I've got a book deadline and really shouldn't be spending time on this, but I can't resist this] On Sat, Apr 08, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > Jim Stockford said that we should keep the name because it has name > recognition. I'm not sure why we care about that. We are not selling > anything. Maybe you can explain, Jim? We're not selling, but we are trying to be easy to find. Changing the name of an organization makes that more difficult IMO. > From my point of view, the thing about Python that is revolutionary > and profoundly correct is that backward-compatibility is a > second-class priority. Huh. There are many many people who would disagree with that assertion, including me. Backwards compatibility is so important that the dev community often resists changes -- and the big point of the Py3K effort is to provide an opportunity to break backward compability. Python makes it simple and straightforward to write a script that will work with both 1.5.2 and 2.5. Moreover, Python makes it easy to connect to legacy libraries written in C and other languages. Perhaps I misunderstand you, though. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From rdm at cfcl.com Sun Apr 9 10:08:27 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 00:08:27 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My take is that a user group's name isn't ever going to be very important as a draw, but that it could be a detriment. If folks are finding the current name to be a problem, pick a boring name for official use (the "in crowd" can show how cool they are by using the old name :-). This leaves the question of geographic location and spread. If you want some expert advice on this sort of thing, ask Rick Moen; he has made quite a study of the relevant issues. Meanwhile, here are some data points: One SFPUG (Perl) holds its meetings at various locations in San Francisco, trying to keep them accessible to BART, etc. This works OK for the northern peninsula and much of the East Bay, but not so well for the Valley. However, they hold their meetings at 8 pm, which makes commuting at least feasible. Another SFPUG (PostgreSQL) rotates their meetings between SF, Oakland, and the south bay. This spreads the pain... If it were my decision, I think I'd try to define a region that covers the "inner" bay area: Alameda, San Francisco, San Mateo, and San Jose counties. Folks from Contra Costa and Marin are welcome to attend, but no special effort gets made on their behalf. I would attempt to have at least one meeting a month, but allow more meetings (in different locations) if there are enough volunteers and attendees to make it happen. Some speakers might well be willing to do two sessions in the same month (e.g., one on SF; one in the Valley), because this would let them amortize their preparation time. I would also think about having some weekend meetings. A Saturday or Sunday afternoon tutorial every few months might be a good way to help bring the newbies up to speed. Alternatively, a heavy-duty technical session might bring some experts out of the woodwork... -r P.S. I dunno if the Python community has anything like the Perl Mongers, but I think they provide just about the right amount of cohesion for the local chapters, without requiring any formality at all. See http://www.pm.org -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sun Apr 9 10:08:47 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 01:08:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Explaining Alternate meeting locations Message-ID: Hi, I think this request goes to Aahz, or others: I have two separate requests below. They essentially relate to improving the clarity in explaining our alternating split meeting locations. I *know* this is assumed knowledge to most active members (me included), so no flames. However as you know many of the 332 list members attend irregularly or even are not Bay Area residents. Quite a few people have told me they never attend Ironport as they do not know where it is and which months the meeting is on. Marilyn D and me were looking at the www.baypiggies.net page today and we agreed it could definitely be clarified. (I do see that Aahz's recent email announce was a model of clarity: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-March/000241.html ) Anyway my suggestions for the webpage: 1) On the www.baypiggies.net pages: 1a) Please restate "Meeting Locations" explicitly as "Meeting Locations Alternate between the following Two Locations". 1b) In the "Meeting Locations" section, please include the city name up front and in boldface, as follows: IronPort (San Bruno, CA): Google (Mtn View, CA): 1c) Please add Location as the 2nd line in the "Upcoming Meetings" listing "Date, *Location*, Agenda, Level, Speaker, About the talk". This is crucial since it then makes the listing self-contained, so that it still makes sense e.g. when emailed. 2) I found instances on the web which still cheerfully say: "BayPIGgies... Meeting Location: Stanford University, Palo Alto, CA" !! http://www.computeruser.com/resources/usergroups/usanc.html Could some volunteer do the legwork with Google search + email to track down the stale references and get them replaced with: "BayPIGgies... Alternating Monthly Meeting Locations: between Ironport(San Bruno) and Google(Mtn View) CA" Let me know what you think, Stephen From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sun Apr 9 10:43:38 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 01:43:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Also to list future meeting dates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry one more thing: Something else that we recently found to be useful for scheduling future talks esp. involving out-of-town speakers would be to list the future meeting dates and locations (since it is non-trivial to expand "2nd Thursday of every month"): So, e.g.: IronPort (San Bruno, CA): April 16, June nn, August nn, October nn, December nn 2006 Google (Mtn View, CA): May nn, July nn, September nn, November nn 2006 (maybe we can do that in a vertical HTML table calendar format?) (PS IronPort is neat since it's right beside SFO airport and convenient to OAK. And Google is closer to SJC. So maybe we designate Ironport our preferred location for out-of-towners. Maybe the time has come to put up a separate page "Information for out-of-town visitors and speakers" with that sort of information and links to the obvious resources?) Thanks again, Stephen From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Apr 9 16:22:29 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 07:22:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Web site changes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060409142229.GA23828@panix.com> On Sun, Apr 09, 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > Sorry one more thing: > Something else that we recently found to be useful for scheduling > future talks esp. involving out-of-town speakers would be to list the > future meeting dates and locations (since it is non-trivial to expand > "2nd Thursday of every month"): > > So, e.g.: > > IronPort (San Bruno, CA): April 16, June nn, August nn, October nn, December > nn 2006 > Google (Mtn View, CA): May nn, July nn, September nn, November nn 2006 Heh. I guess that's proof of how difficult it is to get "2nd Thurs" right: it should be April 13. I've made that change and some of the others, plus reverting to the old style for meeting long description. (Blocks of text should never be ) > (maybe we can do that in a vertical HTML table calendar format?) No. Too much screen space, doesn't work well with Lynx. ;-) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From marilyn at deliberate.com Sun Apr 9 17:07:56 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 08:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Python and progress In-Reply-To: <20060409034110.GA22989@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Aahz wrote: > [I've got a book deadline and really shouldn't be spending time on this, > but I can't resist this] > > On Sat, Apr 08, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > > > Jim Stockford said that we should keep the name because it has name > > recognition. I'm not sure why we care about that. We are not selling > > anything. Maybe you can explain, Jim? > > We're not selling, but we are trying to be easy to find. Changing the > name of an organization makes that more difficult IMO. Good point. The baypiggies.net web site should stay there for decades, either pointing to the new site, or mirroring the new site. > > > From my point of view, the thing about Python that is revolutionary > > and profoundly correct is that backward-compatibility is a > > second-class priority. > > Huh. There are many many people who would disagree with that assertion, > including me. Backwards compatibility is so important that the dev > community often resists changes -- and the big point of the Py3K effort > is to provide an opportunity to break backward compability. Python > makes it simple and straightforward to write a script that will work with > both 1.5.2 and 2.5. Moreover, Python makes it easy to connect to legacy > libraries written in C and other languages. > > Perhaps I misunderstand you, though. Oh yes, backward compatibility is very important but: from __future__ import division is the thing that makes me think that the top priority is the human experience: programmer, teacher, student. It seems very courageous to me. Maybe I have no right to extrapolate so much from so little. Next you'll think I play old Elvis records backwards to find spiritual guidance. I tell you though, a reasonable boring ole name would mean a lot to me when I'm out there in the trenches trying to get people to take Python seriously. I know 'Python' has some silliness in its origen, but that's subtle, and being subtle it's totally cool and never comes up as embarrassing. Marilyn > -- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Apr 9 17:56:56 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 08:56:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python and progress In-Reply-To: References: <20060409034110.GA22989@panix.com> Message-ID: <20060409155656.GA13302@panix.com> On Sun, Apr 09, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Aahz wrote: >> On Sat, Apr 08, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >>> >>> From my point of view, the thing about Python that is revolutionary >>> and profoundly correct is that backward-compatibility is a >>> second-class priority. >> >> Huh. There are many many people who would disagree with that assertion, >> including me. Backwards compatibility is so important that the dev >> community often resists changes -- and the big point of the Py3K effort >> is to provide an opportunity to break backward compability. Python >> makes it simple and straightforward to write a script that will work with >> both 1.5.2 and 2.5. Moreover, Python makes it easy to connect to legacy >> libraries written in C and other languages. > > Oh yes, backward compatibility is very important but: > > from __future__ import division > > is the thing that makes me think that the top priority is the human > experience: programmer, teacher, student. Yes, but you have to explicitly request that breakage in 2.x; it will only become the default in 3.0 when breaking backward compatibility is allowed. Not only that, in 2.x you have to break backward compatibility one module at a time. Python has always added new features that aren't available in earlier releases; the point is that there is little gratuitous change that prevents scripts written for older releases from running. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From rdm at cfcl.com Sun Apr 9 20:22:24 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 10:22:24 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Web site changes Message-ID: At 7:22 AM -0700 4/9/06, Aahz wrote: > Heh. I guess that's proof of how difficult it is to get > "2nd Thurs" right: it should be April 13. Maintaining the date information for upcoming meetings is both a nuisance and a source of error (I've botched this more than once, myself). So, when I set up the web page for BASS (http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass), I decided to get rid of the problem, programmatically. The page is generated, on the fly, by a set of PHP scripts. The code examines the current date, then calculates the date for the upcoming meeting. While I was at it, I set up boilerplate files to contain the introduction and venue information. The result of all this is a tiny file that I only need to edit when the venue changes or some special text needs to be added: % cat more index.php BTW, the $intro magic allows me to play with the introductory text (in introX) via introX.html, while keeping intro.html functional. If anyone wants more details, please contact me off-list. We now return you to your regular programming... -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From rdm at cfcl.com Sun Apr 9 20:30:13 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 10:30:13 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Web site changes Message-ID: I shouldn't try posting before I wake up (:-/)... text (in introX) via introX.html, while keeping intro.html --- text (in introX) via indexX.php, while keeping index.php -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Apr 9 19:31:22 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 10:31:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Web site changes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060409173122.GA9107@panix.com> On Sun, Apr 09, 2006, Rich Morin wrote: > > Maintaining the date information for upcoming meetings is > both a nuisance and a source of error (I've botched this more > than once, myself). So, when I set up the web page for BASS > (http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass), I decided to get rid of the problem, > programmatically. If I were confident that the meeting schedule was stable, I would consider that. However, I'm not. For example, we're currently talking about possibly adding East Bay dates. For all that manual processes have their problems, they deal better with manual interventions. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From ju.1996 at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 19:58:58 2006 From: ju.1996 at gmail.com (Julio Santos) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 10:58:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Web site changes In-Reply-To: <20060409173122.GA9107@panix.com> References: <20060409173122.GA9107@panix.com> Message-ID: > If I were confident that the meeting schedule was stable, I would > consider that. However, I'm not. For example, we're currently talking > about possibly adding East Bay dates. For all that manual processes > have their problems, they deal better with manual interventions. Any chance the site could be "wikified", so it can be fixed by the community when necessary? -- Julio http://morgane.com From jim at well.com Sun Apr 9 21:07:19 2006 From: jim at well.com (jim stockford) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 12:07:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1127C650-C7FC-11DA-B15D-000A95EA5592@well.com> > > Jim Stockford said that we should keep the name because it has name > recognition. I'm not sure why we care about that. We are not selling > anything. Maybe you can explain, Jim? Baypiggies is selling itself, a community for Python interest, and evangelizing (selling) Python. There are URN links, some of which are not generally find-able but work for those who have them, and there is past and present rumor and mention in various textual media. Change the name and some of that breaks and disrupts ("whatever happened to that piggies bunch for Python?") and/or suggests instability ("what's wrong with those people, why are they changing things?"). I mildly like the name and don't find it embarrassing. Seems not a big deal either way, but why put energy into it? It ain't really broke. From walt436 at juno.com Sun Apr 9 21:26:12 2006 From: walt436 at juno.com (walt436 at juno.com) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 12:26:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] delete Message-ID: <20060409.122613.-110799.0.walt436@juno.com> delete From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sun Apr 9 22:31:10 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 13:31:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies Member Survey 2006! Win prizes! Message-ID: BayPIGgies Member Survey 2006 What are the objectives of the survey? a) To get a clear picture of the membership (e.g. how many XML people in the East Bay? how many animators? newbies? engineers? do we have undetected clusters of common interests e.g. IronPython? who are the lurkers on the list?) b) To identify relevant meeting topics of most interest to members c) To improve logistics (meeting formats and locations, help line up speakers, enable carpooling etc.) Why should I fill in the survey? - All fully complete surveys received by the deadline (04/30) will be put in a draw to win PRIZES!! (books, Google gear, O'Reilly swag, course discounts, other exclusive items to be announced!) - Help us make the meetings better, more focused and more relevant to YOUR needs! - If you don't want to do the whole thing, please do just fill in the required sections. (You can bookmark it and come back later and add/update your responses.) - Survey last ran in Mar 2003 and got 7 out of 87 responses. It was surprisingly helpful in identifying needs. As of Apr 2006 we now have 332 list members! This time, if we could get responses from even 100 of you that would be awesome. How to participate: Via SurveyMonkey: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 Alternative #1: if you have problems with cookies or browser support, try it on someone else's machine. Alternative #2: email your answers to spmcinerney at hotmail.com Alternative #3: paper hardcopies will be made available at Apr mtg (sorry no PDF or DOC). How will the results be available? Is privacy protected? - Results will be tabulated and presented at future BayPIGgies meeting (tentatively May 2006) and also on baypiggies list. - Results will be mostly in aggregate, e.g. "27 users interested in MacOS, 50 in Twisted, 18 in Ruby..." - Privacy will be protected. In the survey you can choose to be fully anonymous, or not. No spam. All server data will be deleted at end of survey (by 05/15/06) Browser support and Cookies - SurveyMonkey works with IE, Mozilla/Netscape, Firefox. Doesn't work with Lynx. Requires JavaScript and cookies enabled. - for cookie policy, see www.SurveyMonkey.com - in case of problems, contact spmcinerney at hotmail.com and SurveyMonkey support Acknowledgments: thanks to Marilyn Davis, John Dooley, Wesley, Danny Yoo, JJ, Rich Morin, Tony Capp, Deirdre, Aahz, Brian Mahoney, Wai Yip and all members, for comments, criticisms and input. Thanks for your participation! Stephen McInerney spmcinerney at hotmail.com From kenobi at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 00:50:46 2006 From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 15:50:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <1127C650-C7FC-11DA-B15D-000A95EA5592@well.com> References: <1127C650-C7FC-11DA-B15D-000A95EA5592@well.com> Message-ID: I'll call myself a newbie. I've been on the mailing list for several months, and been to a couple of meetings at Google. I like the name BayPIGgies. As for not being sufficiently professional, 1. it is no less professional than "Homebrew Computer Club," whose members reshaped personal computing and where VCs put their money. 2. multiple choice: Python is (professionally) named after a. a snake b. a comedy troupe c. none of the above 3. considering the people we see at meetings (heck, I read some of these folks' books!), just getting a glimpse of their thought processes is a great benefit. Oh yeah, I like the survey. I put my website comments in there, except for this one: There were a lot of resources listed on the survey that I wasn't even aware of; perhaps these could be listed in a resources section (along with a link to the main python.org website). --Rick Kwan From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 06:05:04 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 21:05:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda?, Last call for IDE demonstrators + (May) Survey results, draw + ? Message-ID: Several issues/comments to clarify for the April and May agendas: (Apr 13, Ironport) ["Sprint and pair/extreme programming discussion"] - Aahz, are you moderating this, or if not who is? Can you please list separate speaker/ moderator names for each agenda item, to avoid a repeat of March's very confused meeting. If a topic has no owner, it ain't gonna happen... ["We will also have a discussion about BayPIGgies, its leadership, and direction for the future."] - anyone tagged to lead this? Can we please at least take the very divisive name issue OFF the table until the survey results come back in May, if not later? ["IDEs for Python"] (but *not GUIs* - Aahz - I only mentioned IDEs but not GUIs, can you delete GUIs?) * I threw out the topic of IDEs but to avoid any possible confusion, I am *not* organizing it. I simply encouraged other people to volunteer - this would make a great new-member speaking opportunity. So far we have only 1/2(?) confirmed volunteers, unless I missed that on the list - can you please identify each speaker and IDE: - JJ Behrens/ Vim + ctags - Marilyn Davis/ (did you volunteer or just express interest?) - will anyone volunteer to cover IDLE or Scite, Wing, JEdit, Boa Constructor, Komodo, ASPN, PyDev(Eclipse), plain old emacs etc.? People - please coordinate with Aahz and each other, not with me. - I thought we agreed IDEs would get to go first, before the sprint discussion? - each presenter would need a fully charged laptop which can project VGA (JJ - does Ironport you have a multiplexer (Belkin?) to allow one person to speak while the next person connects/disconnects/fiddles with their video card/reboots?) - Best to arrive early, test the projector, and arrange speaking order among yourselves. You might find the Jonathan Ellis IDE reviews I posted a good basis for feature comparison across IDEs. (May 11, Google) I would like to present the 2006 survey results for the first 45 minutes (If we have no other speakers, I could use the whole 90 minutes up on this, and I could do extra slides, so please speak up now if you also want to present separately at May?). - results, some graphs, top-n topic lists, conclusions and interactive discussion - draw for prizes from our goodie box (books, tshirts, conference swag, other items) (I may not have a laptop so if someone can commit to lend me theirs to present from?) I know Dennis Reinhardt also offered to speak on ctypes. Best, Stephen From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 06:27:20 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 21:27:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda?, Last call for IDE demonstrators + (May) Survey results, draw + ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604092127lf7b2dc3t2abbfd7068ce1c37@mail.gmail.com> >>["IDEs for Python"] (but *not GUIs* - Aahz - I only mentioned IDEs but not >>GUIs, can you delete GUIs?) I can do a few slides on the IDE included in pyWin32, but would rather do it on a night dedicated to IDE demonstrations. There are enough IDE's out there (assuming we can get people to talk about each of them) that this presentation can easily occupy a whole evening. I think trying to determine the group's focus will undoubtedly cause a lot of discussions and can easily take up a lot of time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060409/e7ea2cf3/attachment.htm From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 06:34:23 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 21:34:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Carpooling to Ironport Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604092134odf74d53x49a12e80171280db@mail.gmail.com> Hello, If anyone is interested in carpooling from the San Jose/Milpitas area to Ironport for the Baypiggies meeting on Thursday, email me OFF the list. Thanks Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060409/016e801e/attachment.htm From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 06:50:53 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 21:50:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda?, Last call for IDE demonstrators + (May) Survey re In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0604092127lf7b2dc3t2abbfd7068ce1c37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Tony, Aahz, people, * The April agenda appears to be confused beyond belief. I have no clue what's likely to happen next Thursday. This is a direct result of throwing out a mishmash of topic names without any specific speakers/moderators confirmed. (I'm trying to be constructive and preemptive here, not critical of anyone.) * The IDE thing may turn into a mess and should be cancelled, unless we get several volunteers pronto (5 would be nice). People, many of you've been asking about IDEs for the last three years, you know exactly who you are, now is the time to step up and make this thing happen (or not). This would be a prime opportunity for new speakers. You only need to demo the thing for 3-5min. I say we cancel it if we don't have 5 names by Monday. >I think trying to determine the group's focus will undoubtedly cause a lot >of discussions and can easily take up a lot of time. Yes and that's precisely the reason I humbly suggest we postpone that discussion, until May when we have hard statistical data from the survey, covering a representative sample of the entire 332-member group - which is the precise reason I'm running the survey, it ends 4/30 and I guarantee you I will have 15+ pages of graphs and hard data which I would like to present at Google on May 11. We already know that we get a largely different constituency at Ironport nights than at Google, so if we attempt to take collective decisions or reach consensus this Thursday... The last thing I want is a heated timewasting discussion about the group's name. I already have 17(!) responses on the survey after only 8 hours uptime; whereas we generally only get 30-60 people total at Ironport nights, and most of the Googlers skip it completely. So please, table this for May, and the name discussion, June or beyond. The sprint/pair programming discussion (+ IDEs, if that can happen) I would much prefer. That's just my personal preference. Over to the rest of you? Regards, Stephen From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 10 06:53:18 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 21:53:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) + (May) Survey results, draw + ? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060409215311.00bf9948@localhost> At 09:05 PM 4/9/2006, you wrote: >Several issues/comments to clarify for the April and May agendas: >(May 11, Google) > >I would like to present the 2006 survey results for the first 45 minutes >I know Dennis Reinhardt also offered to speak on ctypes. Stephen, I would be happy to share the presentation time with you. I have coded a native Windows program in Python with ctypes (http://dialogdevil.com/). The app communicates directly with about 100 different APIs spread over 5 DLL's so there should be sufficient material for 45 minutes. Regards, Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 08:17:50 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:17:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] April's lack of a confirmed agenda Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604092317t521e7d84g323eb7bb09c7dcdb@mail.gmail.com> I agree with Stephen's comment * The April agenda appears to be confused beyond belief. I have no clue what's likely to happen next Thursday. This is a direct result of throwing out a mishmash of topic names without any specific speakers/moderators confirmed. ***************************************************************************************** I don't want this meeting to be as confusing as the one last month. According to the website, we still have no confirmed presenters for the meeting on April 13, I think we should cancel this meeting, and update the website appropriately so noone will make a long trip for nothing. This change will give us all more time to think about a focused topic, get commit, and prepare for a well-planned meeting. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060409/28967684/attachment.html From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 09:35:18 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 00:35:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Please delete April's unconfirmed agenda items from baypiggies.net Message-ID: Hi Aahz, We established that two of the current Apr agenda items on baypiggies.net are unconfirmed - please delete and replace with "agenda unconfirmed, Apr meeting may be cancelled." I tried to reverse-engineer how this extreme confusion came about, so we can improve the group process. I am trying to be purely constructive and not critical here, please everyone take this in a helpful way: [Sprint]: plans for a Sprint do not exist, and they never existed. No-one ever said they would undertake it. You threw the topic out on the list in this thread: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-March/000323.html but you didn't make clear that you weren't volunteering to administer it yourself, nor did you mention that you were very unlikely to attend Apr meeting. You can see Dennis's unanswered dangling question to you about sharing the meeting ("Aahz, I would be willing to split the meeting with you/someone."): http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-March/000337.html [IDEs]: my suggestion about IDEs encountered similar lack of volunteers, and was also a dangling thread: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-March/000332.html (I think I was fairly clear I wasn't volunteering; only JJ volunteered.) This then went off-topic due to your objection to off-list discussions (me and JJ had decided it was more effective to attempt to get that ball rolling offlist, and I believe that was still the correct method. "offlist" != "inappropriate". But let us resolve that philosophy at a future point). [Discussion about group direction, focus, naming etc.] No-one really formally proposed this, the agenda just drifted into it, many people explicitly said they do NOT want to discuss it, and again as yet no-one has volunteered to moderate it, although since we now have no other topic Tony and Wes suggest that we go ahead with this (who will moderate?) It got started when Ben Bangert raised the (somewhat off-topic) issue of group name in our thread about the Apr agenda: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000368.html and I am to an extent also guilty since I replied to that post, although I clearly flagged the discussion topic change. Seems people took that to mean the discussion morphed into "let's add discussion of the group name to the Apr meeting agenda". We are making the big mistake here of assuming that the list chatter is representative of what the wider membership want to focus on at meetings. It isn't, necessarily. Specifically, let's please NOT quibble over the group name at this meeting as Dennis said. I'm sorry to sound pedantic but I think we have to get back to the discipline that: - if a specific person wants to present/moderate a specific topic at a specific meeting, they make a clear proposal with a topic and a date. If they need volunteers they say "Volunteers needed for topic X". Until volunteers are identified, they do not exist. - the individual proposers (plus the list moderator?) must take responsibility for reaching a final decision and communicating it to everyone - the proposed meeting agenda must be approved and cross-checked before it is posted on the website (this never happened here). In particular, each agenda item must have a clear presenter/moderator. If each item does not have a clearly defined owner, no-one can know if it's for real or not. - if a meeting has no agenda, it should ideally be cancelled, or at minimum be flagged as not having any agenda. This will flush out whether other people are prepared to step into the gap, or not (as at March). - threads about the agenda have to be kept ruthlessly on-topic (by the moderator), and loose ends tied up ASAP. Ambiguity is lethal. I guess we have all learnt a harsh lesson about list clarity, communication, ownership, staying on-topic and confusion about list netiquette. And I'm as guilty as the next guy. Again, please only take this in a constructive way. Hope this analysis is useful. Regards, Stephen From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 10 16:19:22 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 07:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda?, Last call for IDE demonstrators + (May) Survey results, draw + ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What a busy Sunday! On Sun, 9 Apr 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > Several issues/comments to clarify for the April and May agendas: > > (Apr 13, Ironport) > > ["Sprint and pair/extreme programming discussion"] > - Aahz, are you moderating this, or if not who is? Can you please list > separate speaker/ moderator names for each agenda item, to avoid a repeat of > March's very confused meeting. > If a topic has no owner, it ain't gonna happen... > > ["We will also have a discussion about BayPIGgies, its leadership, and > direction for the future."] > - anyone tagged to lead this? Can we please at least take the very divisive > name issue OFF the table until the survey results come back in May, if not > later? > > ["IDEs for Python"] (but *not GUIs* - Aahz - I only mentioned IDEs but not > GUIs, can you delete GUIs?) > * I threw out the topic of IDEs but to avoid any possible confusion, I am > *not* organizing it. > I simply encouraged other people to volunteer - this would make a great > new-member speaking opportunity. So far we have only 1/2(?) confirmed > volunteers, unless I missed that on the list - can you please identify each > speaker and IDE: > - JJ Behrens/ Vim + ctags > - Marilyn Davis/ (did you volunteer or just express interest?) Here's what I said: >> I can do plain ole emacs, which I love. >> >> But, I have to leave by 8:30 and I'd love to see some other >> presentations. I'm happy to give mine first and at the advertised >> start time, even if I'm the only person there. >> >> Marilyn Davis The offer stands. > - will anyone volunteer to cover IDLE or Scite, Wing, JEdit, Boa > Constructor, Komodo, ASPN, PyDev(Eclipse), plain old emacs etc.? People - > please coordinate with Aahz and each other, not with me. > > - I thought we agreed IDEs would get to go first, before the sprint > discussion? > - each presenter would need a fully charged laptop which can project VGA > (JJ - does Ironport you have a multiplexer (Belkin?) to allow one person to > speak while the > next person connects/disconnects/fiddles with their video card/reboots?) > - Best to arrive early, test the projector, and arrange speaking order among > yourselves. > You might find the Jonathan Ellis IDE reviews I posted a good basis for > feature comparison across IDEs. > > > (May 11, Google) > > I would like to present the 2006 survey results for the first 45 minutes (If > we have no other speakers, I could use the whole 90 minutes up on this, and > I could do extra slides, so please speak up now if you also want to present > separately at May?). > - results, some graphs, top-n topic lists, conclusions and interactive > discussion > - draw for prizes from our goodie box (books, tshirts, conference swag, > other items) > (I may not have a laptop so if someone can commit to lend me theirs to > present from?) Yes. You may borrow mine. I'm sure I'm the most convenient since we are neighbors. > I just took the survey and it's a very pleasant and interesting experience. Now, I want to hear about all those subjects! Here's the url again, for anyone's convenience: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 I think you're right, that the April meeting hasn't jelled enough to go forward. Maybe the group needs a breather. And, given that we'll have survey results for the May meeting, that would be the time to give the organization a re-think. I'll try to get the name change poll up in the next few days: just "Do you want to change the name?", yes/no/abstain. I think we've talked about it plenty. Thanks again for all your hard work and good thoughts, Stephen. Marilyn > > I know Dennis Reinhardt also offered to speak on ctypes. > > Best, > Stephen > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From ben at groovie.org Mon Apr 10 16:27:51 2006 From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 07:27:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Please delete April's unconfirmed agenda items from baypiggies.net In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E80C087-F847-4364-82F9-3B32DBE2FF01@groovie.org> On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:35 AM, Stephen McInerney wrote: > topic Tony and Wes suggest that we go ahead with this (who will > moderate?) > It got started when Ben Bangert raised the (somewhat off-topic) > issue of > group name in our thread about the Apr agenda: > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000368.html Actually, I threw that in as Marilyn or one of the posts before me suggested the name was "unprofessional" so I tossed my 2 cents in. Ah well.... - Ben From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 10 17:24:36 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 08:24:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Please delete April Message-ID: <20060410160050.3356F1E4027@bag.python.org> ----- On Monday, April 10, 2006 ben at groovie.org wrote: > On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:35 AM, Stephen McInerney wrote: > >> topic Tony and Wes suggest that we go ahead with this (who will >> moderate?) >> It got started when Ben Bangert raised the (somewhat off-topic) >> issue of >> group name in our thread about the Apr agenda: >> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000368.html > > Actually, I threw that in as Marilyn or one of the posts before me > suggested the name was "unprofessional" so I tossed my 2 cents in. Yes. Definitely my fault. I started it: >> >> I would like to be active in a professional group that is centered >> around Python. But I am reticent to step forward here for two >> reasons. One is the name. 'Baypiggies' is cute but it doesn't say >> what we are or suggest professionalism. The other obstacle to my >> whole-hearted participation is the expectation that private email >> messages carry an obligation of secrecy for the recipient. I wonder >> if there is a mechanism for changing these things? And my point is that I don't want to call myself a "piggie". I don't think it's good for me or anyone. Actually, a pig, itself, is one of my favorite animals for its intelligence and flavor, but in our langauge it also means sloppy, dirty, fat, and a policeman. It's an insult. But, even more important, if I'm going to put effort into an organization, I really want it to be one where there is some mechanism for change. So I'm also looking for that in the name-change idea, and when I'm talking about architecture. I found this pointer from Rich Morin interesting: >> >> P.S. I dunno if the Python community has anything like >> he Perl Mongers, but I think they provide just >> about the right amount of cohesion for the local >> chapters, without requiring any formality at all. >> See http://www.pm.org And Dennis wrote to us about the homebrew meetings. I don't really understand how they went, but it has an interesting and fun flavor. I wonder, Dennis, might you be able to lead such an activity for the April meeting? I know it's short notice, and I have no idea if it's a good idea, but I'm come for sure, all the way to San Bruno. Here's the description that Dennis gave us: --- The early '80s Homebrew Computer held (wildly IMO) successful meetings with no speaker at all. Their meetings started with an hour or so of what we call "announcements". Announcements, per se, are not the problem. Indeed, we would improve our announcement process along the Homebrew model so very few would want to leave. Homebrew formalized the announcement process: First there was a "mapping" session followed by a "random access" session. In the mapping session, people would get up and announce the topic of what they had to say. They did *not* expound, discuss the subject matter, or offer verbal bullet points. This was the "news" equivalent of reading the headline only. Questions, slow delivery, and follow-up from the floor were all squelched by the moderator. The mapping sessions only purpose was to let the audience know who they wanted to contact during the immediately following random access session. In random access, people would scramble to go talk (or not) with people who made announcements during mapping. I think this model is something to contemplate. A mapping session is a mapping session... Topic announcements are *brief* (~60 seconds tops) and without followup. The moderator cuts off the long-winded. In Homebrew, a substantial fraction of the audience ended up making an announcement (50%?). The mapping -> random access paradigm worked to efficiently connect Homebrew attendees, one to another. I think there is a potential here to learn more about each other. Now there may well be exceptional short discussion or presentation items of general interest (e.g. a report). Fine. Let's schedule them on the agenda and with a discussion leader for the topic who is responsible for coherence and time budget. Regards, Dennis From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 18:24:58 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:24:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Two volunteers needed to coordinate pizza/snacks? Message-ID: Folks, Volunteers urgently needed: An emerging consensus from the list+survey is that a subset of people definitely DO want snacks/pizza/fresh vegetable platters/soda/cookies. Typically this is some fraction (~50%) of the people who are driving to their "non-home" location, e.g. SouthBay folks when they come to Ironport, SF/EB/Peninsula folks when they come to Google. Most of these have indicated they are prepared to pay ~$5. Can it really be that we can achieve PhD's in Computer Science but can't order a pizza among us? Let's disprove that: So without more ado, let us seek TWO VOLUNTEERS: - a food coordinator for the Google nights - a food coordinator for the Ironport nights Suggested duties: - preferably someone who attends regularly at that location - research what people want, research the options, and the price point - (every 2 months) make the order, get the quantity right, and make sure it is delivered to the meeting location, 30min early, to avoid interruption, and does not get held up by security. (coordinate with JJ at IronPort or Neal at Google) - collect the money(!), and make sure the operation is not out-of-pocket. Keep receipts. We used to have a voluntary contribution jar at Stanford, but that worked when we were much smaller. - communicate clearly on the list and website what the plan is (do people just show up with $5 or should they register or RSVP in advance? do you slightly overbook the quantity) - figure out silverware, paper/plastic plates, napkins, cups etc. - coordinate setup and cleanup - monitor and estimate the headcounts (=>coordinate with talk organizers) as these vary greatly depending on the talk. IronPort seems to average 30-60 people, and - maybe try out different suggestions in rotation until people stabilize on a preferred one. Ok, so do we have two (or more) volunteers who will step up, one for each location, without more ado? Here is your opportunity to earn a lot of gratitude and recognition from your malnourished fellow members. (And FYI it is not clear whether this week's meeting will happen. You will have to work that out yourself and what the expected headcount is :) Volunteer for IronPort location - feel free to bring along a variety of menus to the meeting) Time to make this one happen! Stephen From donnamsnow at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 18:32:23 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:32:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Two volunteers needed to coordinate pizza/snacks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Stephen, I'll take Google nights (or act as co-coordinator) if someone else wants Google too. I've only attended one Google night so far.. but my intention is to return on a regular basis. I don't attend Ironport meetings...just too far. Donna M. Snow On 4/10/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > Folks, > > Volunteers urgently needed: An emerging consensus from the list+survey is > that a subset of people definitely DO want snacks/pizza/fresh vegetable > platters/soda/cookies. > Typically this is some fraction (~50%) of the people who are driving to > their > "non-home" location, e.g. SouthBay folks when they come to Ironport, > SF/EB/Peninsula folks when they come to Google. > Most of these have indicated they are prepared to pay ~$5. > > Can it really be that we can achieve PhD's in Computer Science but can't > order a pizza among us? > Let's disprove that: > > So without more ado, let us seek TWO VOLUNTEERS: > - a food coordinator for the Google nights > - a food coordinator for the Ironport nights > > Suggested duties: > - preferably someone who attends regularly at that location > - research what people want, research the options, and the price point > - (every 2 months) make the order, get the quantity right, and make sure > it is delivered to the meeting location, 30min early, to avoid > interruption, > and does not get held up by security. (coordinate with JJ at IronPort or > Neal at Google) > - collect the money(!), and make sure the operation is not out-of-pocket. > Keep receipts. We used to have a voluntary contribution jar at Stanford, > but that worked when we were much smaller. > - communicate clearly on the list and website what the plan is > (do people just show up with $5 or should they register or RSVP in advance? > do you slightly overbook the quantity) > - figure out silverware, paper/plastic plates, napkins, cups etc. > - coordinate setup and cleanup > - monitor and estimate the headcounts (=>coordinate with talk organizers) > as these vary greatly depending on the talk. IronPort seems to average 30-60 > people, and > - maybe try out different suggestions in rotation until people stabilize on > a preferred one. > > Ok, so do we have two (or more) volunteers who will step up, > one for each location, without more ado? Here is your opportunity to > earn a lot of gratitude and recognition from your malnourished fellow > members. > > (And FYI it is not clear whether this week's meeting will happen. You will > have > to work that out yourself and what the expected headcount is :) > Volunteer for IronPort location - feel free to bring along a variety of > menus to the meeting) > > Time to make this one happen! > Stephen > > > From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 18:49:01 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:49:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Volunteers needed for book reviews Message-ID: A second emerging consensus is that the #1 information resource for us BayPIGgies is the venerable old flat-dead-tree format. Surprising. We used to have a regular freebie book reviewing deal with O'Reilly. You get a brand new book hot off the press for free if you review it! Wes was coordinating although since he is shedding responsibilities, now could be a great time to hand it off to fresh, shiny and eager volunteers. We currently have a backlog with O'Reilly which puts us on their naughty list. * not sure whether the book review is supposed to be in XML, HTML or DOC (a good opportunity to learn XML and maybe even give the group a tutorial on "how to learn enough XML to write an O'Reilly book review"!) I think it should be possible to upload the reviews to server without needing the admin password. * this also kills many birds with one stone, since many people are indicating they would like to hear talks on books (and conferences), and again, it is a great way for a new person to speak and get involved and let everyone know what your interests are. (Maybe we can line up May/June speakers this way...?) * so: Wes/Tony/Danny/whoever knows the O'Reilly setup, what is the current story, what is the current list of unreviewed books, can you bring them to next meeting (Apr? or May), can we stick wings on this thing and make it fly? etc. Do we hear any volunteers out there? Stephen From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Apr 10 19:02:13 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:02:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Volunteers needed for book reviews In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060410170213.GA10190@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 10, 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > * not sure whether the book review is supposed to be in XML, HTML or DOC HTML > I think it should be possible to upload the reviews to server without > needing the admin password. Yes, it should be possible, but there will still be some requirement to log in, no matter what solution gets adopted. > * so: Wes/Tony/Danny/whoever knows the O'Reilly setup, what is the > current story, what is the current list of unreviewed books, can you > bring them to next meeting (Apr? or May), can we stick wings on this > thing and make it fly? etc. It was mostly Tony's gig. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 10 19:03:04 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:03:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> DRAFT April 13 At IronPort. Web page http://baypiggies.net/ 7:30 Technical Presentation Wes Emacs IDE Marilyn 7:45 Future Directions Wes new volunteers get the snacks going again invite speakers help coordinate the whole group in general 8:30 Mapping/Random Access Dennis Mapping 10 minutes Random Access 20 Minutes 9:00 Adjourn Comments? ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 19:06:55 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:06:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Volunteers needed for book reviews In-Reply-To: <20060410170213.GA10190@panix.com> References: <20060410170213.GA10190@panix.com> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604101006y1efcaed8le3dd3b88eb35e274@mail.gmail.com> > >>It was mostly Tony's gig. Correct -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060410/2160b190/attachment.html From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 19:08:45 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:08:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604101008k5239ef95xad5cad48e48205b7@mail.gmail.com> 7:30 Technical Presentation Wes > Emacs IDE Marilyn > 7:45 Future Directions Wes > new volunteers > get the snacks going again > invite speakers > help coordinate the whole group in general > 8:30 Mapping/Random Access Dennis > Mapping 10 minutes > Random Access 20 Minutes > 9:00 Adjourn > > >>Comments? This sounds like a good plan to me !! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060410/f3c4ae8f/attachment.htm From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 10 19:19:50 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > DRAFT > > April 13 At IronPort. Web page http://baypiggies.net/ > > 7:30 Technical Presentation Wes Wes stepped down? How far? Will you be there Wes? > Emacs IDE Marilyn I'm happy to do this but it makes much more sense to find some other presenters of other IDE's for compare and contrast. It seems so puny to have an emacs presentation by itself. > 7:45 Future Directions Wes I like the idea of waiting until after the survey results so we have a better clue. > new volunteers > get the snacks going again Although this might be a good time to look for an Ironport volunteer for snacks. > invite speakers > help coordinate the whole group in general > 8:30 Mapping/Random Access Dennis Thank you Dennis! This sounds good. > Mapping 10 minutes > Random Access 20 Minutes > 9:00 Adjourn > > Comments? There's mine. Marilyn > ---------------------------------- > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 19:31:35 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:31:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604101031j339f2288w63cfe562c5e2449a@mail.gmail.com> > > > Emacs IDE Marilyn > >>I'm happy to do this but it makes much more sense to find some other > >>presenters of other IDE's for compare and contrast. It seems so puny > >>to have an emacs presentation by itself. I agree with This. It makes much better sense to have IDE comparisons done on a night when several will be presented. I reiterate my notion of a dedicated IDE comparison night. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060410/bdfea105/attachment.htm From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 19:40:38 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:40:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >DRAFT: April 13 At IronPort. Web page http://baypiggies.net/ 7:30 Announcements? or did we agree to move that to 9pm end of mtg? Let's be laser-clear on this. This is when recruiters are allowed speak. IDEs: CANCELLED/POSTPONED Due to lack of volunteers ( Emacs IDE: Marilyn, vim+ctags - JJ) Aahz or anyone with a login to baypiggies server - please update the webpage ASAP? > > 7:45 Future Directions Wes 7:45 Logistics and Volunteers - Wes & Stephen I offer to co-moderate (if Wes wants me!). I suggest let us NOT discuss big-picture stuff like direction, focus and group name, until the survey comes back in May, but rather simple, basic and essential things like (say): - identify specific tasks for which new volunteers are needed - we still have no food coordinator for IronPort. This is insane. Someone please step up! - invite speakers: 24 people have already suggested enough bright ideas to fill the calendar till end of 2006. Don't wait for the survey to come back, let's get on this today! For out-of-town speakers, you will need to identify possible dates and locations. Let us start carving up the calendar among us. - getting the very excellent book reviews restarted (Also: Wes - will you have the Pycon proceedings for sale at $25 as you promised? or are they still in Dallas?) - brainstorm ideas for future meetings: * comparison with Ruby * Python entrepreneurs * Zope/Plone * etc... - etc. - anyone who voices a legitimate criticism (and please everyone speak up), be prepared to articulate your suggested solution and prepare to be asked to volunteer to follow-through on implementing it. - when we walk out of the room, let us have a clear list of names, dates and task ownership! > > 8:30 Mapping/Random Access Dennis > > Mapping 10 minutes > > Random Access 20 Minutes > > 9:00 Adjourn or is it 9:00 Announcements, Recruiters (?) Thank you Dennis for the impulse towards structure. Stephen From donnamsnow at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 19:44:24 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:44:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> Message-ID: Hi, I won't be there for the Ironport meeting, but I think it'd be a good idea to meet on Thursday just to keep the momentum going, treat as a reconnect without to much expectation of organization until after the survey is complete and tabulated. Although I don't think covering "coordination" of the group in general should occur until AFTER the survey is done. Gathering interest in volunteering sounds fine.. but coordination should occur after we have those volunteers and we meet again.. (either May for google attendees or June for our ironport regulars). Maybe we treat the two meetings as separate entities (under the BayPIGgies umbrella) and let those "attendees" determine which works best for them? (just a thought) Instead of one coordinator for BayPIGgies.. one per location and then under that coordinator/manager have volunteers that handle speakers, food, reviews, recruiters.. etc (I believe that's what you are doing already?). Even if I do manage to attend an ironport meeting I would be able to do so knowing the ironport team took care of everything for their locale. btw, I'd be interested in reviewing O'Reilly books as well.. but not sure I can coordinate. Otherwise the agenda sounds fine to me. Donna M. Snow On 4/10/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > > DRAFT > > > > April 13 At IronPort. Web page http://baypiggies.net/ > > > > 7:30 Technical Presentation Wes > > Wes stepped down? How far? Will you be there Wes? > > > Emacs IDE Marilyn > > I'm happy to do this but it makes much more sense to find some other > presenters of other IDE's for compare and contrast. It seems so puny > to have an emacs presentation by itself. > > > 7:45 Future Directions Wes > > I like the idea of waiting until after the survey results so we have a > better clue. > > > new volunteers > > get the snacks going again > > Although this might be a good time to look for an Ironport volunteer > for snacks. > > > invite speakers > > help coordinate the whole group in general > > 8:30 Mapping/Random Access Dennis > > Thank you Dennis! This sounds good. > > > Mapping 10 minutes > > Random Access 20 Minutes > > 9:00 Adjourn > > > > Comments? > > There's mine. > > Marilyn > > > ---------------------------------- > > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > > ---------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 10 19:57:33 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > >DRAFT: April 13 At IronPort. Web page http://baypiggies.net/ > > 7:30 Announcements? or did we agree to move that to 9pm end of mtg? > Let's be laser-clear on this. This is when recruiters are allowed speak. > > IDEs: CANCELLED/POSTPONED Due to lack of volunteers Okie dokie. Not happening. Period. > ( Emacs IDE: Marilyn, vim+ctags - JJ) > Aahz or anyone with a login to baypiggies server - please update the webpage > ASAP? > > > > 7:45 Future Directions Wes > 7:45 Logistics and Volunteers - Wes & Stephen > I offer to co-moderate (if Wes wants me!). > I suggest let us NOT discuss big-picture stuff like direction, focus and > group name, > until the survey comes back in May, but rather simple, basic and essential > things like (say): Oh. I thought you wanted to hold off on this until after the survey. I guess I misunderstood. So, okie dokie. I'm good with this and the rest. So, then, the New Directions discussion starts at 7:30. > - identify specific tasks for which new volunteers are needed > - we still have no food coordinator for IronPort. This is insane. Someone > please step up! > - invite speakers: 24 people have already suggested enough bright ideas to > fill the calendar > till end of 2006. Don't wait for the survey to come back, let's get on this > today! > For out-of-town speakers, you will need to identify possible dates and > locations. > Let us start carving up the calendar among us. > - getting the very excellent book reviews restarted (Also: Wes - will you > have the Pycon proceedings for sale at $25 as you promised? or are they > still in Dallas?) > - brainstorm ideas for future meetings: * comparison with Ruby * Python > entrepreneurs * Zope/Plone * etc... > - etc. > - anyone who voices a legitimate criticism (and please everyone speak up), > be prepared > to articulate your suggested solution and prepare to be asked to volunteer > to follow-through on implementing it. > - when we walk out of the room, let us have a clear list of names, dates and > task ownership! > > > > 8:30 Mapping/Random Access Dennis > > > Mapping 10 minutes > > > Random Access 20 Minutes > > > 9:00 Adjourn > or is it 9:00 Announcements, Recruiters (?) > > Thank you Dennis for the impulse towards structure. > Stephen Yes! You are both great to pull this together. I'm looking forward to it. Marilyn > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 10 20:01:37 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:01:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410105003.00bf1cd0@localhost> At 10:40 AM 4/10/2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > > 8:30 Mapping/Random Access Dennis > > > Mapping 10 minutes > > > Random Access 20 Minutes > > > 9:00 Adjourn >or is it 9:00 Announcements, Recruiters (?) >7:30 Announcements? or did we agree to move that to 9pm end of mtg? >Let's be laser-clear on this. This is when recruiters are allowed speak. >Thank you Dennis for the impulse towards structure. Laser-clarity I can handle:-) To avoid needless detail in the initial draft, I did not show fine structure of Mapping. My intent is have first time attendees introduce themselves at beginning of mapping and then open latter part to traditional BayPiggies Announcements but with time limits and discourage audience followup during mapping itself. Thus, the draft proposal is recruiters speaking during latter part of the 10 minute Mapping period 8:30 - 8:40. People would break out of their seats and meet with people making interesting announcements in the 20 minute Random Access period immediately after at 8:40-9:00. The Random access period is an appropriate venue for business card exchange, handouts, and face to face discussion. Recruiters have member access during Mapping (brief announcement) and Random Access (followup with anyone interested). The 9:00 Adjourn is meeting over: snacks are packed up, people are encouraged to leave and the room is cleared. Regards, Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 10 21:22:07 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:22:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410114713.00bec7e0@localhost> At 10:40 AM 4/10/2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: >7:30 ... >IDEs: CANCELLED/POSTPONED Due to lack of volunteers We currently have a hole in Technical Presentation. IMO, expanding the "future directions" to fill the time is not a good idea. I would like to see this hole filled. Let's figure out what we can put together to present >7:45 Logistics and Volunteers - Wes & Stephen >... basic and essential >things like (say): (seven items snipped) IMO, the list of items proposed is insufficiently focused. I am afraid that a discussion along the lines of the seven items listed is a setup for failure: too much to do by too few people and unclear responsibility. I think we need to identify WHO will volunteer and we want to take ownership long before we organize specific tasks. The WHAT of targets can wait until the survey results are fleshed out. The agenda I proposed for future directions was snipped from Wes's own words. As a task list to accomplish, I felt it was on-point and doable. Stephen, Marilyn, anyone: can you offer an improved replacement agenda for future discussion and lead it: new volunteers get the snacks going again invite speakers help coordinate the whole group in general Regards, Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 21:36:06 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:36:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Volunteers needed for book reviews In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604101236q5af71cf4qab54b74b897eba93@mail.gmail.com> > >>We currently have a backlog with O'Reilly which puts us on their naughty > list. *This just isn't true. I have been personally coordinating the Oreilly book reviews for over a year (closer to 2 years, I think), and Oreilly has never **contacted me stating we owe them and are on their "black list".* We currently owe Oreilly 3-4 reviews at this point because the people who have requested the titles for review are busy. (Guess what, I'm one of those people!!!!!!!) I am hesitant to ask Oreilly for more books from them until the outstanding reviews are submitted. When we got kicked off of the old server, I immediately told Oreilly what was going on, and that it may be sometime until our reviews would be online again. They have been very gracious and understanding. >>* so: Wes/Tony/Danny/whoever knows the O'Reilly setup, what is the current story, what is the current list of unreviewed books, I can bring them, but I don't think it's important. One of the policies of the review process is, if the reviewer gets too busy to complete the review within a reasonable amount of time (which I arbitrarily set as two months), then they should notify me, and I will post an email to the list for someone else to review the book. I have been pretty liberal with this policy for several reasons, and it has been working out fine. People do get busy from time-time, and Oreilly knows were are doing this in good faith. If we are in trouble with Oreilly, it's a complete surprise to me. Since it's NOT a problem with Oreilly, I don' t think it's even worth bringing up at the meeting, since we have *many other issues* to solve. However, if people who have done reviews would like to give presentations on them, this should be discussed at an upcoming meeting. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060410/35ab5a80/attachment.htm From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 22:37:52 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:37:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Please delete April In-Reply-To: <20060410160050.3356F1E4027@bag.python.org> References: <20060410160050.3356F1E4027@bag.python.org> Message-ID: Well, with all due respect to the Homebrew Computer club, which I read about with fascination in "Hackers", I really do enjoy listening to full-on talks. -jj On 4/10/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > ----- On Monday, April 10, 2006 ben at groovie.org wrote: > > > On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:35 AM, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > > >> topic Tony and Wes suggest that we go ahead with this (who will > >> moderate?) > >> It got started when Ben Bangert raised the (somewhat off-topic) > >> issue of > >> group name in our thread about the Apr agenda: > >> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000368.html > > > > Actually, I threw that in as Marilyn or one of the posts before me > > suggested the name was "unprofessional" so I tossed my 2 cents in. > > Yes. Definitely my fault. I started it: > >> > >> I would like to be active in a professional group that is centered > >> around Python. But I am reticent to step forward here for two > >> reasons. One is the name. 'Baypiggies' is cute but it doesn't say > >> what we are or suggest professionalism. The other obstacle to my > >> whole-hearted participation is the expectation that private email > >> messages carry an obligation of secrecy for the recipient. I wonder > >> if there is a mechanism for changing these things? > > And my point is that I don't want to call myself a "piggie". I don't think it's good for me or anyone. Actually, a pig, itself, is one of my favorite animals for its intelligence and flavor, but in our langauge it also means sloppy, dirty, fat, and a policeman. It's an insult. > > But, even more important, if I'm going to put effort into an organization, I really want it to be one where there is some mechanism for change. So I'm also looking for that in the name-change idea, and when I'm talking about architecture. > > I found this pointer from Rich Morin interesting: > >> > >> P.S. I dunno if the Python community has anything like > >> he Perl Mongers, but I think they provide just > >> about the right amount of cohesion for the local > >> chapters, without requiring any formality at all. > >> See http://www.pm.org > > And Dennis wrote to us about the homebrew meetings. I don't really understand how they went, but it has an interesting and fun flavor. > > I wonder, Dennis, might you be able to lead such an activity for the April meeting? I know it's short notice, and I have no idea if it's a good idea, but I'm come for sure, all the way to San Bruno. > > Here's the description that Dennis gave us: > > --- > > The early '80s Homebrew Computer held (wildly IMO) successful meetings with > no speaker at all. Their meetings started with an hour or so of what we > call "announcements". Announcements, per se, are not the problem. Indeed, > we would improve our announcement process along the Homebrew model so very > few would want to leave. > > Homebrew formalized the announcement process: First there was a "mapping" > session followed by a "random access" session. In the mapping session, > people would get up and announce the topic of what they had to say. They > did *not* expound, discuss the subject matter, or offer verbal bullet > points. This was the "news" equivalent of reading the headline > only. Questions, slow delivery, and follow-up from the floor were all > squelched by the moderator. > > The mapping sessions only purpose was to let the audience know who they > wanted to contact during the immediately following random access > session. In random access, people would scramble to go talk (or not) with > people who made announcements during mapping. > > I think this model is something to contemplate. A mapping session is a > mapping session... Topic announcements are *brief* (~60 seconds tops) and > without followup. The moderator cuts off the long-winded. > > In Homebrew, a substantial fraction of the audience ended up making an > announcement (50%?). The mapping -> random access paradigm worked to > efficiently connect Homebrew attendees, one to another. I think there is a > potential here to learn more about each other. > > Now there may well be exceptional short discussion or presentation items of > general interest (e.g. a report). Fine. Let's schedule them on the agenda > and with a discussion leader for the topic who is responsible for coherence > and time budget. > > Regards, Dennis > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 22:50:02 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:50:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] April agenda? In-Reply-To: References: <14B62AAE-17EB-47FE-800F-72544902E397@groovie.org> Message-ID: Did everyone watch the three hour "Snakes and Rubies" talk ? After such a great talk, I think it would be wasteful to talk anymore about Django vs. Ruby on Rails. However, a talk about *just Ruby*, *just Python*, and *just Perl* might still be worth having. I'm skeptical that we could make a good go of it since people can be so closed minded about languages. I've coded in all three professionally, and even I can be closed minded at times. -jj P.S. Hi, Rich! On 4/7/06, Rich Morin wrote: > At 6:48 PM -0700 4/7/06, Ben Bangert wrote: > > Rather than have a debate, why not let each group pick something > > they think their language provides a unique way of solving ... > > I like this. Alternatively, it might be interesting for an expert > in a given language to discuss a deficiency in it. With a bit of > warning, the experts for the other languages could discuss whether > and how their own language resolves the issue. > > -r > -- > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 > > Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 22:57:39 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:57:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda?, Last call for IDE demonstrators + (May) Survey results, draw + ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > (JJ - does Ironport you have a multiplexer (Belkin?) to allow one person to > speak while the > next person connects/disconnects/fiddles with their video card/reboots?) No. I didn't know such things existed. :-/ -jj From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 23:23:17 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:23:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410114713.00bec7e0@localhost> Message-ID: Hi Dennis, Actually I think you, I and Tony meant largely the same thing, I may have been a bit unclear. Let me clarify please: - I suggested we solicit and assign volunteers to do X,Y&Z, then delegate to them. (We basically define what we want, then each volunteer goes off and figures it out. If they need input from the list, they ask.) I did *not* say: we thrash out every last detail of implementing X,Y & Z. That would of course be a total waste of time. But if (to take one example) we can simply get 10 committed people working on speaker invites, I think the speaker deficit is solved. I already got >10 great suggestions via the survey so I think it's time to get that ball rolling, so it produces results by June or July. Maybe I can recast my proposal as "What are the top-10 responsibilities we need volunteers for?" Maybe we should make that the discussion focus? - also it seems my intent was not clear, from feedback I got from Tony C. My intent here is "very probably we can't solve the big issues this week, such as the group identity, but let's start taking actions to iteratively improve things by starting a culture of following through on ideas or criticisms." Certainly you are all free to say this is not the way to go, or just lower-priority. It was only a proposal. e.g. Restarting book reviews is a smart tactic (in several people's opinion) because they generate a pool of speakers who can be relied on as as last resort if everything else on the agenda falls through (as has now happened two months in a row). I understood from Wes this was a smart tactic. But this is only a suggestion. You may think it's irrelevant or lower-priority. Also, I (mistakenly?) understood from Wes that we had fallen into O'Reilly's bad list by not keeping our review deadlines (certainly there are no reviews visible on http://www.baypiggies.net/book_reviews/index.html, and it hasn't been updated since Dec 2005). And it was never clarified that Tony Capp took over from Wes two years ago as the O'Reilly book review coordinator - I think very few people were aware of that? So that should have been communicated on email and website. (Tony said they did mention it at several meetings last year). So if there are book reviews going on in our group, I have no knowledge or visibility of it, and there's no recent update on the list about it either. Anyway you and I have committed to presenting at May mtg. So at least May agenda is well-defined already. Best, Stephen >From: Dennis Reinhardt >To: baypiggies at python.org >Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:22:07 -0700 > >At 10:40 AM 4/10/2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > >7:30 ... > >IDEs: CANCELLED/POSTPONED Due to lack of volunteers > >We currently have a hole in Technical Presentation. IMO, expanding the >"future directions" to fill the time is not a good idea. I would like to >see this hole filled. Let's figure out what we can put together to present > > >7:45 Logistics and Volunteers - Wes & Stephen > >... basic and essential > >things like (say): (seven items snipped) > >IMO, the list of items proposed is insufficiently focused. I am afraid >that a discussion along the lines of the seven items listed is a setup for >failure: too much to do by too few people and unclear responsibility. I >think we need to identify WHO will volunteer and we want to take ownership >long before we organize specific tasks. The WHAT of targets can wait until >the survey results are fleshed out. > >The agenda I proposed for future directions was snipped from Wes's own >words. As a task list to accomplish, I felt it was on-point and >doable. Stephen, Marilyn, anyone: can you offer an improved replacement >agenda for future discussion and lead it: > > new volunteers > get the snacks going again > invite speakers > help coordinate the whole group in general > >Regards, Dennis > >---------------------------------- >| Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | >| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | >---------------------------------- > >_______________________________________________ >Baypiggies mailing list >Baypiggies at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 23:30:50 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:30:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410114713.00bec7e0@localhost> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604101430w650aa806yd9cbad1dd12d0e4f@mail.gmail.com> >>bad list by not keeping our review deadlines (certainly there are no reviews > >>visible on http://www.baypiggies.net/book_reviews/index.html, and it > hasn't been updated since Dec 2005). Yes, my HTML needs work, but the reviews have been living here for many moons now, http://www.baypiggies.net/book_reviews/menu.html and there is a micropscopic link to them in the referring page. http://www.baypiggies.net/book_reviews/index.html, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060410/6f2dfd5a/attachment-0001.htm From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 23:45:19 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:45:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> Message-ID: On 4/8/06, Tung Wai Yip wrote: > > I think this is poking at a tar baby: we will get stuck fixing what is > > not > > really broken. IMO, it is way more important *being* an important > > organization rather than *sounding* like an important organization. > > > > A recent posting from ACCU here listed their upcoming talks: > > > > Guido van Rossum Apr. 5 A Look At Python's Future > > Greg Stein Jun 14 Python at Google > > > > Uhhh... Why aren't these talks being given to BayPiggies? What are the > > important things we can do to improve our program and meetings? Name > > change does not even register. > > > > Bluntly, I think taking on a name change is the wrong problem, a waste of > > time. The right problem: upgrading our meetings. > > > > Dennis > > That is my feeling. I think we should focus on soliciting quality > presentations and setting interesting agenda. I don't know anyone who > decline to join the group because it is called baypiggies. Agreed. -jj From deirdre at deirdre.net Tue Apr 11 00:07:31 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:07:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> Message-ID: <607CAB99-38E1-4825-9A74-DAC7C44C70F7@deirdre.net> About ACCU, iirc, that's the first time Guido spoke there. He's spoken at BayPIGgies several times, starting in 1999. ACCU, while focused on C/C++, does have interesting talks about other languages from time to time. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From wescpy at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 00:19:22 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:19:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> Message-ID: <78b3a9580604101519s662ec8ben44deeaad5e37a16@mail.gmail.com> > > > I think this is poking at a tar baby: we will get stuck fixing what is > > > not > > > really broken. IMO, it is way more important *being* an important > > > organization rather than *sounding* like an important organization. > > > > Bluntly, I think taking on a name change is the wrong problem, a waste of > > > time. The right problem: upgrading our meetings. > > > > That is my feeling. I think we should focus on soliciting quality > > presentations and setting interesting agenda. I don't know anyone who > > decline to join the group because it is called baypiggies. > > Agreed. i think that we can move on from the name change. lots of people have leaned towards keeping it for many many good reasons, although i can understand those who would prefer a different name. my take is that we *already* have 2 names, the "cute" name (BayPIGgies), and the "official" or "professional" name (The Silicon Valley-San Francisco Bay Area Python users group). see the top of the web page. (if you want it actually on the page title instead of at the top of the content, we can do that too.) those who like the cute name can continue to use it. those who don't, just use the professional name and don't even mention the cute name anymore to anyone. -wesley From wescpy at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 00:22:28 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:22:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <607CAB99-38E1-4825-9A74-DAC7C44C70F7@deirdre.net> References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> <607CAB99-38E1-4825-9A74-DAC7C44C70F7@deirdre.net> Message-ID: <78b3a9580604101522k223a2852t6a3b7f186c7e9536@mail.gmail.com> On 4/10/06, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > About ACCU, iirc, that's the first time Guido spoke there. He's > spoken at BayPIGgies several times, starting in 1999. ACCU, while > focused on C/C++, does have interesting talks about other languages > from time to time. i think guido is also one of the few speakers who have given talks at all BayPIGgies locations... SF, Mtn View (i2), Stanford, San Bruno (IronPort), and Mtn View (GOOG). well, maybe except for the times we met at Coco's and OSCON. :-) -wesley From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 00:23:24 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:23:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Holy Thursday Message-ID: (No flames please!) Are any other Christians / Jews having a difficulty because Thursday is Holy Thursday / Passover? I'm having a difficult time with the fact that I have to host the talk, yet I'm obligated to go to Holy Thursday mass which is at about the same time. I'm only bringing this up because it's one of the most holy times of the year for *multiple* religions. :-/ -jj From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Apr 11 00:55:42 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:55:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Holy Thursday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060410225542.GA4845@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 10, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > Are any other Christians / Jews having a difficulty because Thursday > is Holy Thursday / Passover? I'm having a difficult time with the > fact that I have to host the talk, yet I'm obligated to go to Holy > Thursday mass which is at about the same time. That's one reason why I'm absolutely skipping this meeting. If you want to skip presenting your review because you need to go to mass, by all means don't feel guilty. It's getting a bit late to reschedule, though. Let us just move forward with whoever shows up. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From DennisR at dair.com Tue Apr 11 01:19:13 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:19:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Holy Thursday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410155044.00bf9a30@localhost> At 03:23 PM 4/10/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >I'm having a difficult time with the >fact that I have to host the talk, yet I'm obligated to go to Holy >Thursday mass which is at about the same time. So, lemme re-cap how Thur night is shaping up: 1) no technical talk 2) a "futures" discussion which may go somewhere/may not 3) room arrangements in flux with a conflict in duties for some or many Let me suggest an alternative here: we cancel our physical meeting Thur night at IronPort. Instead, we split the agenda in two: 1) We have a "virtual" meeting Thur night, viewing the 3 hours of material at http://www.snakesandrubies.com/ provided by JJ. This can then be discussed here on the list. 2) We hold an "organizing" meeting in a convenient restaurant venue. In the IEEE Computer Society, we held our meetings at Jing Jing (http://www.themenupage.com/jingjing.html) and I have found it conducive to holding discussions for up to 4-10 people. I am volunteering to coordinate this meeting. The outcome (if any) of this organizing meeting would be posted back here for comment. If/as there is critical mass for an organizing meeting, set-up details would go off-list here to un-hijack this list. Maybe I am just a gear-head but (1) sounds like the best of my 3 hours of my coming Thur. night. (2) needs to be done and having a dedicated face-to-face among those focusing on this topic may show the most results. Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From ross at pcnt.com Tue Apr 11 01:23:31 2006 From: ross at pcnt.com (Ross Parlette) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:23:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <607CAB99-38E1-4825-9A74-DAC7C44C70F7@deirdre.net> References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> <607CAB99-38E1-4825-9A74-DAC7C44C70F7@deirdre.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen To: Shannon -jj Behrens Cc: baypiggies at python.org Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:07:31 -0700 Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] > About ACCU, iirc, that's the first time Guido spoke there. He's > spoken at BayPIGgies several times, starting in 1999. ACCU, while > focused on C/C++, does have interesting talks about other languages > from time to time. > At the last ACCU meeting (I vas dere, Chahlie), there were some intro slides (OK, that's an anachronism), in which it was specifically stated that C and C++ were no longer the primary focus. Like many groups, I expect that they are also trying to see "what sells." From the past Python oriented meetings they have had, cleary Python is one of those things. btw, they are a paying membership org, although the meetings are manifestly (and permanently) free, as is the meeting announcement mailing list. IIRC, a year or so ago, I attended a previous meeting at which Alex Martelli spoke and I bought a copy of his revised book. My memory of details is fading, but it was at a Denny's on North First in SJ, so it wasn't likely a BP meeting. Alex acknowledged that he was blown away by the size of the group. Ross > -- > _Deirdre http://deirdre.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 01:37:13 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:37:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Holy Thursday In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410155044.00bf9a30@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410155044.00bf9a30@localhost> Message-ID: Dennis, I do recommend watching "Snakes and Rubies"; however, that can be done whenever. I really like the Bay Piggies meetings. Some are good. Some are not so good. That's fine. I'd like to do my part toward making the best of them. That means I'll be hosting a meeting at IronPort on Thursday, even if it's just me. I'd also be very happy to give my talk . Feel free to email me privately if you think I'm a bozo, but I think this could lead to interesting discussion. Aahz, it'd be nice if you came if only so that I could a) remember what you look like b) say hi. Let's start defusing all this negative list energy. This is silly. By the way, I'll be happy to answer newbie questions on Thursday night too :) -jj On 4/10/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 03:23 PM 4/10/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > >I'm having a difficult time with the > >fact that I have to host the talk, yet I'm obligated to go to Holy > >Thursday mass which is at about the same time. > > So, lemme re-cap how Thur night is shaping up: > > 1) no technical talk > 2) a "futures" discussion which may go somewhere/may not > 3) room arrangements in flux with a conflict in > duties for some or many > > Let me suggest an alternative here: we cancel our physical meeting Thur > night at IronPort. Instead, we split the agenda in two: > > 1) We have a "virtual" meeting Thur night, viewing the > 3 hours of material at > http://www.snakesandrubies.com/ provided by JJ. This can > then be discussed here on the list. > > 2) We hold an "organizing" meeting in a convenient restaurant > venue. In the IEEE Computer Society, we held our meetings at > Jing Jing (http://www.themenupage.com/jingjing.html) and I > have found it conducive to holding discussions for up to 4-10 > people. I am volunteering to coordinate this meeting. The > outcome (if any) of this organizing meeting would be posted > back here for comment. > > If/as there is critical mass for an organizing meeting, > set-up details would go off-list here to un-hijack this list. > > Maybe I am just a gear-head but (1) sounds like the best of my 3 hours of > my coming Thur. night. (2) needs to be done and having a dedicated > face-to-face among those focusing on this topic may show the most results. From deirdre at deirdre.net Tue Apr 11 01:42:18 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:42:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> <607CAB99-38E1-4825-9A74-DAC7C44C70F7@deirdre.net> Message-ID: On Apr 10, 2006, at 4:23 PM, Ross Parlette wrote: > At the last ACCU meeting (I vas dere, Chahlie), there were some > intro slides > (OK, that's an anachronism), in which it was specifically stated > that C and > C++ were no longer the primary focus. I suspect that may be because Reg is no longer the main person involved. FWIW, when I asked them about doing a rails presentation (twice), I never got a response. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From wescpy at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 01:43:05 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:43:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> Message-ID: <78b3a9580604101643y508b9969n1407a06faf3d8d94@mail.gmail.com> below is an update thanks for Dennis and everyone's feedback. BayPIGgies Agenda: Thu, Apr 13, San Bruno, 7:30p Summary ======= 7:30 Technical Presentation (Wes) IDEs short discussion 8:00 Future Directions (Wes) 8:30 Introduce newbies and announcements (Dennis' "Mapping") 8:40 Break-out/socialize (Dennis' Random Access) 9:00 Adjourn Detailed ======== 7:30 Technical Presentation (Wes) IDEs short discussion > Wes stepped down? How far? Will you be there Wes? i'm not really stepping down as much as i'm asking others in the group to step up. this will be my last meeting for awhile, so yes. > Emacs IDE Marilyn On 4/10/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > >>I'm happy to do this but it makes much more sense to find some other > > >>presenters of other IDE's for compare and contrast. It seems so puny > > >>to have an emacs presentation by itself. > On 4/10/06, Tony C wrote: > > I agree with This. It makes much better sense to have IDE comparisons done > on a night when several will be presented. > > I reiterate my notion of a dedicated IDE comparison night. so we know we want an IDEs night. but this is a meeting that needs to be prepped, so we will have a brief discussion about: - what IDEs are out there - which IDEs folks want to hear about - find speakers for the IDEs we decided on 8:00 Future Directions (Wes) - new volunteers (what we need them for and whom) - get the snacks going again (funding) - invite speakers and talks - book reviews (Tony) - survey (Stephen) - help coordinate the whole group in general 8:30 Introduce newbies and announcements (Dennis' "Mapping") 8:40 Break-out/socialize (Dennis' Random Access) 9:00 Adjourn i've updated the website to reflect this. see you all thursday. -wesley From walterv at gbbservices.com Tue Apr 11 01:43:34 2006 From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:43:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <607CAB99-38E1-4825-9A74-DAC7C44C70F7@deirdre.net> References: <784c89d9744a70e7ec6d5289610719ab@got.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20060408134601.00be2090@localhost> <607CAB99-38E1-4825-9A74-DAC7C44C70F7@deirdre.net> Message-ID: <443AEDA6.80103@gbbservices.com> Hi Deirdre, > About ACCU, iirc, that's the first time Guido spoke there. Actually, that was Guido's second presentation. He gave his first presentation way back in December 2003. We've actually had quite a few Python presentations over the years: June 2000 - Python for Beginners - Wes Chun January 14, 2003 - Video Editing in Python - Drew Pertulla June 10, 2003 - Introduction to Python - Reg Charney December 9, 2003 - What's new in Python? - Guido van Rossum May 10, 2005 - Python Hacking - Alex Martelli April 5, 2006 - A Look At Python's Future - Guido van Rossum And, of course, we're looking forward to the June presentation: June 14, 2006 - Python at Google - Greg Stein And yes, we've had presentations on a number of other languages besides C and C++: Forth, Lisp, Ruby, PHP, Ada, and Java immediately come to mind. Dennis Reinhardt asked "Why aren't these talks being given to BayPiggies?". I don't know what BayPiggies does to get speakers, but I can certainly share what the local ACCU chapter has been doing. We (the Silicon Valley chapter of the ACCU) have always had one person whose primary responsibility has been to find speakers. That person was Reg Charney until May 2005, and it's been me ever since June 2005. We contact the potential speaker, usually by email (eg. Guido van Rossum) or face to face (eg. Greg Stein) and ask them (very nicely) if they'd like to speak to our group. Usually I make the initial contact, but certainly not always. Regardless of who makes the initial contact, I follow up by firming up dates, sending reminders, providing a tentative schedule, exchanging cell phone numbers, and generally trying to make the event happen. Hope that helps. All the best, Walter Walter Vannini President, Silicon Valley ACCU --- Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > About ACCU, iirc, that's the first time Guido spoke there. He's > spoken at BayPIGgies several times, starting in 1999. ACCU, while > focused on C/C++, does have interesting talks about other languages > from time to time. From davidlmontgomery at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 02:06:13 2006 From: davidlmontgomery at gmail.com (David Montgomery) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:06:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Holy Thursday Message-ID: <96d4cf580604101706k2cf30381s6096083d7f09a24a@mail.gmail.com> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > I'd also be very happy to give my talk > I would be happy to see this. I am one of the lurking newbies on the list. As it turns out, Thursday in San Bruno is good for me, so I hope there will be a meeting, especially if it will be more than purely organizational. David From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Apr 11 02:14:13 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:14:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580604101643y508b9969n1407a06faf3d8d94@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> <78b3a9580604101643y508b9969n1407a06faf3d8d94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060411001413.GB3308@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 10, 2006, w chun wrote: > > below is an update thanks for Dennis and everyone's feedback. > > BayPIGgies Agenda: Thu, Apr 13, San Bruno, 7:30p > > Summary > ======= > 7:30 Technical Presentation (Wes) > IDEs short discussion JJ has offered to do a review of "Professional Software Development". Any objection to that instead of the excessively minimal IDE discussion? -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Apr 11 02:19:00 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:19:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Please delete April's unconfirmed agenda items from baypiggies.net In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060411001900.GC3308@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 10, 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > We established that two of the current Apr agenda items on > baypiggies.net are unconfirmed - please delete and replace with > "agenda unconfirmed, Apr meeting may be cancelled." > > I tried to reverse-engineer how this extreme confusion came about, so > we can improve the group process. Any reverse engineering must start with finding out who posted the April agenda in the first place. I never muck with the agenda on the web site until there is a clear agenda in place. You'll note that I still haven't sent out a formal e-mail announcement. If we had thought ahead of time, changing the meeting date to third Thursday might have been a Good Idea, but although I knew that Pesach would prevent me from coming, I had no clue that Catholics were also affected. Side note: there is NEVER any reason to cancel a BayPIGgies meeting due to lack of agenda. If nothing else, people can always do free-form question-and-answer. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles." --John Cleese anticipates Usenet From DennisR at dair.com Tue Apr 11 02:46:31 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:46:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) Agenda ... a proposal In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580604101643y508b9969n1407a06faf3d8d94@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060410095137.00c13d98@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060410173210.00c00d90@localhost> At 04:43 PM 4/10/2006, w chun wrote: >7:30 Technical Presentation (Wes) > .... >so we know we want an IDEs night. but this is a meeting >that needs to be prepped, so we will have a brief discussion >about: > > - what IDEs are out there > - which IDEs folks want to hear about > - find speakers for the IDEs we decided on This sounds like a free-form audience participation meeting, not a Technical Presentation which has been thought though in advance. The March meeting had this format. I am reluctant to travel 40 miles total for a repeat of March. Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From marilyn at deliberate.com Tue Apr 11 03:17:51 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Please delete April's unconfirmed agenda items from baypiggies.net In-Reply-To: <20060411001900.GC3308@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Aahz wrote: > On Mon, Apr 10, 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > > > We established that two of the current Apr agenda items on > > baypiggies.net are unconfirmed - please delete and replace with > > "agenda unconfirmed, Apr meeting may be cancelled." > > > > I tried to reverse-engineer how this extreme confusion came about, so > > we can improve the group process. > > Any reverse engineering must start with finding out who posted the April > agenda in the first place. I never muck with the agenda on the web site Really? It's not known who dun it? I guess it's spilt milk and it doesn't matter. Maybe a wiki is a good idea so at least we'd know who did things. It's a cool idea someone had. > until there is a clear agenda in place. You'll note that I still haven't > sent out a formal e-mail announcement. > > If we had thought ahead of time, changing the meeting date to third > Thursday might have been a Good Idea, but although I knew that Pesach > would prevent me from coming, I had no clue that Catholics were also > affected. > > Side note: there is NEVER any reason to cancel a BayPIGgies meeting due > to lack of agenda. If nothing else, people can always do free-form > question-and-answer. If there's no agenda, please post that there's no agenda so that people don't get disappointed. I am interested in hearing the talk on software development that JJ proposes to give and I too expect that it would provide a great jumping off place for discussion. I hope it happens. I agree that talking about a program about IDE's sounds pretty tedious and I'd rather skip it, even though I'd be part of the real program. I'd like to do an organizing meeting to see if this square peg can find a comfortable way to help. However, I'd rather it not be attached to eating out. But, I do think Dennis' suggestion was clever and attractive and I'd do it even if it isn't my preference. I very much appreciate that Walter Vannini took the time to help us. Clearly we need a volunteer with a title like "Speaker Coordinator", or maybe two of them, one for each meeting site. Marilyn From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Apr 11 05:20:52 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:20:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: April 13, 7:30pm (IronPort) Message-ID: <20060411032052.GA2596@panix.com> The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, April 13 at 7:30pm at IronPort. This meeting features JJ reviewing "Professional Software Development" with discussion and newbie questions afterward. BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. Advance notice: We have a speaker for May. We can use speakers for June/July. Please e-mail baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to give a presentation). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From jjhartley at att.net Tue Apr 11 06:46:30 2006 From: jjhartley at att.net (James Hartley) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:46:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: April 13, 7:30pm (IronPort) In-Reply-To: <20060411032052.GA2596@panix.com> Message-ID: <003901c65d22$ea3c9d30$d79d480c@aluminum> Unless JJ will be implementing some new funky twist on string theory & gravitation, wasn't he asking to be excused for Thursday services? If JJ can be in two places at the same time, hell, maybe I should come to the meeting & watch... ;-) -----Original Message----- From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Aahz Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 8:21 PM To: baypiggies at python.org Cc: Python-List; python-announce at python.org Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: April 13, 7:30pm (IronPort) The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, April 13 at 7:30pm at IronPort. This meeting features JJ reviewing "Professional Software Development" with discussion and newbie questions afterward. BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. Advance notice: We have a speaker for May. We can use speakers for June/July. Please e-mail baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to give a presentation). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" _______________________________________________ Baypiggies mailing list Baypiggies at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 22:40:40 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:40:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: April 13, 7:30pm (IronPort) In-Reply-To: <003901c65d22$ea3c9d30$d79d480c@aluminum> References: <20060411032052.GA2596@panix.com> <003901c65d22$ea3c9d30$d79d480c@aluminum> Message-ID: To confirm: yes, I'll be giving the talk. Concerning mass, I'm hoping to find a mass at 5 PM. I recommend that experienced programmers come to this meeting, as I expect the discussion about "Professional Software Development" to be lively. Nonetheless, I don't expect it to be too high-brow for the newbies. Furthermore, I hope dedicating some official time for newbie questions will make the newbies feel more welcome! Happy Hacking! -jj On 4/10/06, James Hartley wrote: > Unless JJ will be implementing some new funky twist on string theory & > gravitation, wasn't he asking to be excused for Thursday services? If > JJ can be in two places at the same time, hell, maybe I should come to > the meeting & watch... > > ;-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org > [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Aahz > Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 8:21 PM > To: baypiggies at python.org > Cc: Python-List; python-announce at python.org > Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: April 13, 7:30pm (IronPort) > > The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, April 13 at 7:30pm at > IronPort. > > This meeting features JJ reviewing "Professional Software Development" > with discussion and newbie questions afterward. > > > BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) > and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and > directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ > > > Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of > dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. > > Advance notice: We have a speaker for May. We can use speakers for > June/July. Please e-mail baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest > an > agenda (or volunteer to give a presentation). > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> > http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 22:45:45 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:45:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: April 13, 7:30pm (IronPort) In-Reply-To: References: <20060411032052.GA2596@panix.com> <003901c65d22$ea3c9d30$d79d480c@aluminum> Message-ID: By the way, this is more than a simple, opinionated book review. This is a comprehensive summary of the entire book. Furthermore, I'm going to try to answer questions from the point of view of the author. -jj On 4/11/06, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > To confirm: yes, I'll be giving the talk. Concerning mass, I'm > hoping to find a mass at 5 PM. > > I recommend that experienced programmers come to this meeting, as I > expect the discussion about "Professional Software Development" to be > lively. Nonetheless, I don't expect it to be too high-brow for the > newbies. Furthermore, I hope dedicating some official time for newbie > questions will make the newbies feel more welcome! > > Happy Hacking! > -jj > > On 4/10/06, James Hartley wrote: > > Unless JJ will be implementing some new funky twist on string theory & > > gravitation, wasn't he asking to be excused for Thursday services? If > > JJ can be in two places at the same time, hell, maybe I should come to > > the meeting & watch... > > > > ;-) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org > > [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Aahz > > Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 8:21 PM > > To: baypiggies at python.org > > Cc: Python-List; python-announce at python.org > > Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: April 13, 7:30pm (IronPort) > > > > The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, April 13 at 7:30pm at > > IronPort. > > > > This meeting features JJ reviewing "Professional Software Development" > > with discussion and newbie questions afterward. > > > > > > BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) > > and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and > > directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ > > > > > > Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of > > dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. > > > > Advance notice: We have a speaker for May. We can use speakers for > > June/July. Please e-mail baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest > > an > > agenda (or volunteer to give a presentation). > > -- > > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> > > http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > > > "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > From marilyn at deliberate.com Wed Apr 12 03:05:11 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 18:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name Message-ID: Hi Python People. I hit a snag with our poll: "Do you think the name of the BayPIGies group should be changed?" -> yes/no/abstain I need our list of addresses for validation. Mailman is secure and only gives me an image of the email list. Very cool. Aahz or someone, can you please send me a text version? Thanks. Marilyn From marilyn at deliberate.com Wed Apr 12 03:48:29 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 18:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Never mind. Sorry. I was wrong. I seem to be able to paste it afterall. Voting tomorrow. Marilyn On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > Hi Python People. > > I hit a snag with our poll: > > "Do you think the name of the BayPIGies group should be changed?" -> yes/no/abstain > > I need our list of addresses for validation. > > Mailman is secure and only gives me an image of the email list. Very > cool. Aahz or someone, can you please send me a text version? > > Thanks. > > Marilyn > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Wed Apr 12 05:09:35 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:09:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Marilyn, There are many pressing issues in the group, many feel this is not a major one, although clearly some do. I see you have an 'abstain' option, is this how I would register the opinion "defer any decisions on name until we figure out our group identity? I fear this will start a distracting firestorm which is incapable of reaching a civilized conclusion (since the group has no charter, governing board, by-laws etc.). Thanks, Stephen From allison at shasta.stanford.edu Wed Apr 12 05:16:56 2006 From: allison at shasta.stanford.edu (Dennis Allison) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: First law of branding -- never change your name. Second law of branding -- never change your name. Third law of branding -- never change your name. BAYPIGGIES may not suit everyone's taste, but it has name recognition and is not confusing to most folks after they are introduced to it. There are lots more pressing issues! -d On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > Hi Marilyn, > > There are many pressing issues in the group, many feel this is not > a major one, although clearly some do. > I see you have an 'abstain' option, is this how I would register the opinion > "defer any decisions on name until we figure out our group identity? > > I fear this will start a distracting firestorm which is incapable of > reaching a > civilized conclusion (since the group has no charter, governing board, > by-laws etc.). > > Thanks, > Stephen > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From harrington_chad at hotmail.com Wed Apr 12 05:22:44 2006 From: harrington_chad at hotmail.com (Chad Harrington) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:22:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As the (only?) VP of Marketing in the group, I have to say I hate the name BayPIGgies. I support voting for a new name. I also support creating a formalized structure for the group. Chad Harrington harrington_chad at hotmail.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Dennis Allison To: Stephen McInerney CC: baypiggies at python.org Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:16:56 -0700 (PDT) First law of branding -- never change your name. Second law of branding -- never change your name. Third law of branding -- never change your name. BAYPIGGIES may not suit everyone's taste, but it has name recognition and is not confusing to most folks after they are introduced to it. There are lots more pressing issues! -d On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote: > Hi Marilyn, > > There are many pressing issues in the group, many feel this is not > a major one, although clearly some do. > I see you have an 'abstain' option, is this how I would register the opinion > "defer any decisions on name until we figure out our group identity? > > I fear this will start a distracting firestorm which is incapable of > reaching a > civilized conclusion (since the group has no charter, governing board, > by-laws etc.). > > Thanks, > Stephen > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- _______________________________________________ Baypiggies mailing list Baypiggies at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Apr 12 15:50:18 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 06:50:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] REMINDER: BayPIGgies: April 13, 7:30pm (IronPort) Message-ID: <20060412135018.GA13449@panix.com> The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, April 13 at 7:30pm at IronPort. This meeting features JJ reviewing "Professional Software Development" with discussion and newbie questions afterward. BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. Advance notice: We have a speaker for May. We can use speakers for June/July. Please e-mail baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to give a presentation). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From mrbmahoney at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 15:53:53 2006 From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 06:53:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Thursday, April 13, 6 pm Message-ID: <5538c19b0604120653o5f3a1879qeab3001ef9d44927@mail.gmail.com> Now that JJ is confirmed as a speaker for tomorrow night, I can coordinate dinner at Crepes du Monde in the Bayhill Shopping Center, several blocks from the IronPort meeting location for this Thursday. Crepes du Monde has a web site (scroll down for info about San Bruno) http://www.lacreperiedumonde.com and a map http://www.lacreperiedumonde.com/img/mapimage.gif Crepes du Monde 815 Cherry Avenue Suite 16 San Bruno. CA 94066 Phone: 650 589-3778 I've made reservations under "Python" for 6pm Thursday. If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I confirm the headcount. From marilyn at deliberate.com Wed Apr 12 16:50:22 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The poll is open! http://jacq.istos.com.au/python/ My colleague John Jacq in Australia made the little voting page. He does all of eVote's web work. John's page generates an email message from your response and sends it to python at deliberate.com. If you would rather vote by email, here are the computer-generated instructions: On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:41:20 -0700 marilyn at deliberate.com attached a poll to this subject: Change name? ==== ==== POLL TEXT ==== ==== Do you think the name of the BayPIGies group should be changed? ==== ============ POLL INSTRUCTIONS ==== ============ The 320 participants of the python list are asked to vote from -1 to 1. ====== ==== PUBLIC POLL ====== ==== This is a "public" poll. This means you can send email to python at deliberate.com with the subject, "Change name?", and with a message that says: eVote who to receive a list of everyone's votes. Of course, everyone else on the python list can monitor your votes too. == ==== TO VOTE == ==== 1. Send a message to python at deliberate.com. 2. Your subject must be "Change name?". (Don't worry about extra words in the subject line that reply-to produces.) 3. Your message *must* start with the word, "eVote", or your vote will be sent to the entire python list and it won't be counted! To vote 0, your message should say: eVote 0 Your vote can be any number from -1 to 1. 4. If your message has a signature, or any other text below your vote, make a line that says, "end" just after your vote. ======== ==== ==== CHANGING YOUR VOTE ======== ==== ==== You can change your vote while the poll is open by voting again. ======== ==== ==== REMOVING YOUR VOTE ======== ==== ==== To remove your vote on "Change name?", send the message: eVote remove ====== === ======= == === ==== SEEING THE RESULTS OF THE POLL ====== === ======= == === ==== To see the current vote tally on "Change name?", send the message: eVote info ==== =========== MORE INFORMATION ==== =========== To receive more information about "Change name?": 1. Send a message to: python at deliberate.com 2. Your subject must be: Change name? 3. Your message should say: eVote help who to learn details about the WHO command. If your message says: eVote how Charlie at somewhere.com you will receive a message reporting Charlie's vote. To see your own vote, the current vote tally, and this information again, send the command: eVote info For a general explanation of eVote, use any subject line, and send the message: eVote help Clerk 2.52b3 Ser.No. 1 From marilyn at deliberate.com Wed Apr 12 17:09:20 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Chad Harrington wrote: > As the (only?) VP of Marketing in the group, I have to say I hate the name > BayPIGgies. I support voting for a new name. I also support creating a > formalized structure for the group. > > Chad Harrington > harrington_chad at hotmail.com Thanks Chad! I'm sorry that some people feel so strongly against voting about this. Taking a vote is such a quick and simple thing compared to having a discussion. It's the thing to do when the discussion doesn't find a consensus. What's the harm? Myself, I don't think any other issue is nearly as important. If you accept a name for yourself, then you become that. It's why it is so important to say to your daughter, "You did a bad thing" rather than "You are a bad girl". And you should never call yourself "stupid", or a "pig". It's why I've always considered this group to be 'they' and not 'we'. Such a name certainly must support the culture of confusion and disorganization. How about "Python by the Bay"? Marilyn From ross at pcnt.com Wed Apr 12 18:13:28 2006 From: ross at pcnt.com (Ross Parlette) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:13:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Marilyn Davis To: baypiggies at python.org Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name > The poll is open! > > http://jacq.istos.com.au/python/ > > My colleague John Jacq in Australia made the little voting page. He > does all of eVote's web work. > > John's page generates an email message from your response and sends it > to python at deliberate.com. On or about 9:00 AM PDT, the istos page was not available. I am awaiting other results; what do we know about deliberate (dot) com? Ross -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060412/93fa3d2c/attachment.htm From harrington_chad at hotmail.com Wed Apr 12 18:14:59 2006 From: harrington_chad at hotmail.com (Chad Harrington) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:14:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let's vote on if we want a new name or not. If so, we can then nominate names, etc. For what it's worth, I like BayPython, although there are probably better names. Chad Harrington harrington_chad at hotmail.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Marilyn Davis To: baypiggies at python.org Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:09:20 -0700 (PDT) On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Chad Harrington wrote: > As the (only?) VP of Marketing in the group, I have to say I hate the name > BayPIGgies. I support voting for a new name. I also support creating a > formalized structure for the group. > > Chad Harrington > harrington_chad at hotmail.com Thanks Chad! I'm sorry that some people feel so strongly against voting about this. Taking a vote is such a quick and simple thing compared to having a discussion. It's the thing to do when the discussion doesn't find a consensus. What's the harm? Myself, I don't think any other issue is nearly as important. If you accept a name for yourself, then you become that. It's why it is so important to say to your daughter, "You did a bad thing" rather than "You are a bad girl". And you should never call yourself "stupid", or a "pig". It's why I've always considered this group to be 'they' and not 'we'. Such a name certainly must support the culture of confusion and disorganization. How about "Python by the Bay"? Marilyn _______________________________________________ Baypiggies mailing list Baypiggies at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From marilyn at deliberate.com Wed Apr 12 18:44:10 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Ross Parlette wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marilyn Davis > To: baypiggies at python.org > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:50:22 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name > > > The poll is open! > > > > http://jacq.istos.com.au/python/ > > > > My colleague John Jacq in Australia made the little voting page. He > > does all of eVote's web work. > > > > John's page generates an email message from your response and sends it > > to python at deliberate.com. > > On or about 9:00 AM PDT, the istos page was not available. Darn it. It sure isn't. I'm cc-ing John so he can see what's up. What time is it in Australia? In the meantime: 1. Send a message to: python at deliberate.com 2. Subject must be: Change name? 3. Message must be: eVote n <-- n is 1, 0, or -1 indicating yes, abstain, no end <-- if anything follows Be aware that we can all see each others' votes. > > I am awaiting other results; what do we know about deliberate (dot) com? Other results? What do you mean? But, take all the time you want. Give it some thought. Change your vote later. Because voting seems to be such a sensitive thing, I run one list at deliberate.com where we keep a poll open about whether or not we want the list to hosted at deliberate.com. Chicken and egg sort of thing. We find that the presence of a real voting mechanism adds a little civility to an email list, even if voting almost never happens. About deliberate.com: it's me and a few other volunteers, mostly John Jacq. The box for receiving mail is in my garage in Mountain View. The web site is hosted by a volunteer, Mark Rauterkus in Pennsylvania. I wrote the voting software: C for the mail interface, C++ for the vote-server. There is a python interface for mailman at sourceforge but I gave my mailman box away to a student at CalTech so I don't have it running. All the software is old and not compiled since before there was a big change in gcc, without backward compatibility, which had a bug for a while that prevented compiling the vote-server. I gave up and moved on to a new project. Mailman has also evolved since then. And you know anything you want to know. Check out http://www.deliberate.com and ask me anything. Maybe I could give a talk on the system and that might bring a volunteer to bring it up to date with Mailman and it could be installed at python.org? But, it's very controversial, even in these times when it's clear that the world needs a big change toward real democracy. Aw well, Marilyn > > Ross > -- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Apr 12 19:02:12 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:02:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060412170212.GA13861@panix.com> Side note: from my POV, this vote is strictly non-binding. It's not bad to get a sense of what the community wants, but in order for this to be a binding vote, IMO it must also include the list of proposed names. Therefore this vote will need to be re-run with the names even if it passes this round. IOW, in order to change the name of the group, there must be enough people voting, there must be enough people voting in favor of changing the name, and there must be agreement on which name to change to. Unless all these conditions are met within a single vote, I don't think the name should change. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From kael.fischer at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 19:21:07 2006 From: kael.fischer at gmail.com (Kael Fischer) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:21:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/12/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > Myself, I don't think any other issue is nearly as important. I, on the other hand, think you protest a bit too much. I rather liked the 2 name solution that came up a few days ago, at least as a way to get this discussion off the list. > If you accept a name for yourself, then you become that. It's why it > is so important to say to your daughter, "You did a bad thing" rather > than "You are a bad girl". And you should never call yourself > "stupid", or a "pig". As powerful as words are and contrary to your advice, I generally tell my daughter that words and names do not have quite the transformative power you say they do. 'piggie' != 'pig'. 'Piggie' seems much closer to 'piggy'(n) which is most often used to refer to toes, frequently the cute toes of a child. When referring to swine, 'piggy' is the small new-born type and not associated with typical 'pig' insults. For instance, I grew up in the 60s and 70s in Berkeley, but I have never heard anyone called a 'male chauvinist piggy." > It's why I've always considered this group to be 'they' and not 'we'. > > Such a name certainly must support the culture of confusion and > disorganization. I thought what you wanted was a 'mechanism for change'. This poll seems to be focused on a particular change you want and not on mechanism. I see that, for you, this name issue is central to other issues you have with the group. But to say that the name "certainly must" contribute to those problems is quite speculative. -Kael From deirdre at deirdre.net Wed Apr 12 19:42:13 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:42:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84DD980C-8EBB-4EF9-BDD3-D37F6D3299FC@deirdre.net> On Apr 12, 2006, at 10:21 AM, Kael Fischer wrote: > 'Piggie' seems much closer to 'piggy'(n) which is most often used to > refer to toes, frequently the cute toes of a child. When referring to > swine, 'piggy' is the small new-born type and not associated with > typical 'pig' insults. For instance, I grew up in the 60s and 70s in > Berkeley, but I have never heard anyone called a 'male chauvinist > piggy." Honestly, BayPIGgies has a silly name because Python was named for something silly. Also, I'd previously been involved in FIGs (Forth Interest Groups) and the name was modeled upon that. I can't recall anyone ever saying anything as lame as talking about how FIG is a silly name and, you know, fig leaves go over genitals in classic paintings, therefore it's unprofessional. No, they actually had lives and spent their time, you know, writing code. If you're worried about membership in a professional organization, let me be the first to say that BayPIGgies was never intended as a professional organization: there weren't dues, there weren't $1000+ conferences, there were just people who happened to be interested in Python. It was not organized as a group of people interested in a name change for a group about Python. If the name change is a passionate issue for any of you, I suggest that you may wish to examine what your life is about. At length. (My view on this issue would be the same whether I'd started the group or not, fwiw.) > I see that, for you, this name issue is central to other issues you > have with the group. But to say that the name "certainly must" > contribute to those problems is quite speculative. Name really has nothing to do with any issues that may exist. The issues that have been aired recently occur in every group (eventually), no matter how cool (or uncool) the name. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From jerdonek at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 19:54:09 2006 From: jerdonek at gmail.com (Chris Jerdonek) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:54:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name Message-ID: <5fb57091ddc29bc3bb6e6641e92d7022@gmail.com> From: "Kael Fischer" > > On 4/12/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > >> Myself, I don't think any other issue is nearly as important. > > I, on the other hand, think you protest a bit too much. I rather > liked the 2 name solution that came up a few days ago, at least as a > way to get this discussion off the list. I don't like all this e-mail either. But I think she has a point. Yeah, it's creative, but honestly the name kind of sucks. It makes me think of that scene at the beginning of European Vacation. The Pig-in-a-Poke game show. Is that what the meetings are like? Choice of name does say something about the group (uncool?), and it's also confusing. But maybe the group wants that image -- I don't know. --Chris -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 819 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060412/4442bd70/attachment.bin From rdm at cfcl.com Wed Apr 12 20:59:16 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:59:16 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I felt a bit funny voting for a new name, as I'm not a big user of Python and have never attended a meeting. However, having been involved in the leadership of a number of organizations, I recognize the significance of names, etc. If the group is going to become a professional organization (still an open question!), a new name would be helpful. So, I voted '1'. If a lot of folks agree, the specifics can be worked out. FWIW, I think that "BayPython" is a fine name. You may get flack from folks located near other "bays", but I wouldn't worry about this. I Googled for BayPython and got no hits, so I'd say the name is free to use... -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Apr 13 00:10:20 2006 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 15:10:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060412221020.GK5586@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Rich Morin (rdm at cfcl.com): > My take is that a user group's name isn't ever going to be > very important as a draw, but that it could be a detriment. > If folks are finding the current name to be a problem, pick > a boring name for official use (the "in crowd" can show how > cool they are by using the old name :-). Hi, my thanks to Rich Morin for the above, and apologies about being slow to reply. Oh dear, this looks like one of those conversions peppered with symbolic code-phrases: "unprofessional": In completely _different_ contexts, this would have straightforward and relevant meaning. Those would be, well, professional contexts -- ones where people are expected, for money-making reasons, to follow the forms conventionally in line with business purpose. But of course _that_ doesn't apply to a volunteer Python group. So, it's really just being used as a codephrase meaning "The speaker feels its silly and would prefer it to go away, but can't cite any _real_ reason, but 'unprofessional' sounds vaguely disapproving, so let's use that." I don't mean to dismiss people ending up feeling that way: That's an honest reaction (from some folk) that shoudl be fairly acknowledged. My point solely is that the term is distortive and (whether so intended or not, and I assume not) ends up being cheap polemics. "has about zero appeal for anyone I know": Seems like overstressing kneejerk reaction from some humourless people, and mostly a screen for the "I just don't like this name" view noted previously. _However_, echoing Rich's point, granting the premise isn't reason to rename the group: Rather, it's reason one might want to sometimes refer to it by an altered version of its name. Maybe I'm weird or I studied formal rhetoric too long, but I recall having done this instinctively, and not sat on my ass waiting for official permission, either. That is, if I intuited that someone wouldn't find "BayPIGgies" amusing, I substituted "{Silicon Valley|Bay [Area]} Python Group" on the fly. I mean, isn't that obvious. Don't _you_ do that? Why not? And, if you _do_, then what's this teapot tempest about? Looking back, I'm not sure I clearly remember when I first heard the name "BayPIGgies" but _am_ sure I didn't know my wife had named it. I _think_ the first few seconds were like this: 'BayPIGGies'? WTF? Oh, like 'FIG'. I get it. Still, 'PIG'. That's... eccentric. Wait; I _like_ eccentric. But with the 'ies' prefix, it's cloying. No, wait, it's _mock_ cloying: That's brilliant. And so nice to not have yet another boring, completely unimaginative name. "consistent with": Means "20,000 dying lemmings can't be wrong", aka boring and sleep-inducing is good because it's bland and inoffensive. See also: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#best-practices This is the impulse towards flavourless mediocrity that, e.g., lead SVLUG to stop using the term "Foo of the Month" for short presentations because one nitwit felt the term was "too geeky" (for a Linux group!) and another poorly educated aspiring bluenose asserted (in error) that the term originated in "Fu**ed Up Beyond All Repair" and bleated that SVLUG must not be guilty of profanity. (Said officious ignoramus could not be bothered to look even as far as the Jargon File: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/F/foo.html) So -- and hold onto your lunch -- specifically to appease these two techno-tards, SVLUG has renamed its short-presentation segment "Nifty of the Month". Nifty! Polyester knit pastel bellbottoms are "nifty". Sheesh. That's the sort of lame-ass result you get when you succumb to the urge to eliminate all possible complaints. Blandness, and room-temperature IQ. There is also a recurring nitwit initative to rename "BayLISA", the sysadmin group. Suggestions are always "more professional" (bland) and "more inclusive" (vague and stupifying). Rich _actually_ wanted to consult with me on geographical coverage, though. > If it were my decision, I think I'd try to define a region that covers > the "inner" bay area: Alameda, San Francisco, San Mateo, and San Jose > counties. Folks from Contra Costa and Marin are welcome to attend, > but no special effort gets made on their behalf. I concur, absolutely. BayLISA deals with this same issue repeatedly: Someone in Berkeley says "Gee, Cupertino's a long way to drive." A San Franciscan says "I live in the Mission, and the city charter says it's unlawful to force me to drive south of Cesar Chavez Street. Besides, I'm not sure I have my visa for trips to San Mateo County." After pondering the matter for a long while, BayLISA leadership found that there was enough interest in S.F. meetings that regular ones might be held there if locals to staff the meeting and a reliable, suitable venue could be found. For the North Bay, we helped a new, independent sister group get founded, which now meets monthly in Sebastopol. If someone in Concord / Walnut Creek wished, we'd assist in setting up a group there, too. In other words, we decided to concentrate on (roughly) San Jose to S.F., and help found additional groups elsewhere. Not everyone likes this, and, (note!) this is OK and expected. We're not the Sysadmin Tooth Fairy. For a group to remain stable and build _new_ attendence, in general you want to keep the following as consistent as possible: o The group's name o The group's Internet domain o Venues o The recurring date/times of events. Consistency and predictability are very much your friends, so you should need a _very_ compelling reason to impair those. From carroll at tjc.com Thu Apr 13 00:23:37 2006 From: carroll at tjc.com (Terry Carroll) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 15:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just my two cents here, addressing a number of thoughts I've seen expressed in a number of emails. I support a name change. My opinion is that the present name is unprofessional and sounds amateurish. I understand the issue was discussed previously and the discussion halted with what was finality at the time; however, my understanding of the basis for the finality was that a/the founder, who also hosted the mailing list and web site vetoed any possible change as the discussion began, and since that individual was effectively the "owner" of the group, that individual could speak with finality. That was reasonable, I think. But the predicate of website and mailing list ownership are no longer present, and in my view, neither is the finality. I disagree that a name change should require 2/3 of all members, which effectively means that not voting is the same as voting "no." Not voting is the same as not voting. It indicates not caring; it does not indicate a preference for no change. The fact that the domain name includes "baypiggies" is not a significant drawback, in my mind. There is no requirement that the domain name and the organization name match; or, in fact, that there be only one domain name. I disagree that a name change, or consideration of it, should be postponed because there are other more important issues. For almost every issue you can name, there is always something more important. Addressing one does not mean others must be ignored. Because the recent survey specifically declared a discussion of a name change to be OT for that survey, I did not include comments there. But I see that others did. One comment on the survey referred to something like (paraphrasing from memory here) "loud people on the mailing list" and suggested that those persons' opinions are somehow worth less because of the mode of participation they choose. I don't buy this. I don't believe that meeting attendance is the only basis to determine whether anyone's opinion is worth listening to. I personally have only attended about 3 meetings since I joined the group (but I was speaker at one of them); I've simply found the mailing list to be a useful resource, and certainly more convenient. In fact, it does not strike me as unlikely that an unprofessional-sounding name and low participation could be linked. I don't know how I'd go about testing that hypothesis, but it's worth, I think, bearing in mind. Finally, in support of a name change, I suggest we take a cue from the Python web site itself, which recently underwent a makeover to provide a more professional image. An upgrade to the group name is consistent with that. Here's one legitimate reason to count my opinion for a little less: I don't program professionally. It was once a part of my job, a career ago, but not any more. Any programming I do now, whether in Python or otherwise, is essentially as a hobby. But if I were a professional programmer, I think I would prefer to have a more professional-sounding association name on my resume than "Baypiggies." From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Apr 13 00:50:40 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 15:50:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2006, at 3:23 PM, Terry Carroll wrote: > In fact, it does not strike me as unlikely that an unprofessional- > sounding > name and low participation could be linked. I don't know how I'd > go about > testing that hypothesis, but it's worth, I think, bearing in mind. If that were indeed the case, how come this group has a higher average meeting attendance than other language groups in the bay area? -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Apr 13 01:01:53 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:01:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060412230152.GA7007@panix.com> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006, Terry Carroll wrote: > > I disagree that a name change should require 2/3 of all members, which > effectively means that not voting is the same as voting "no." Not > voting is the same as not voting. It indicates not caring; it does > not indicate a preference for no change. Note carefully that the metric I proposed was different: * 1/3 of list members voting * 2/3 majority of voters preferring name change * minimum 1/2 of all voters approving the new name This was in opposition to the claim that it was appropriate for 10% of the group to choose a new name. That is not acceptable IMO. IOW, if there aren't a third of the group who care enough, we don't change. If the people voting can't muster a 2/3 majority in favor of a new name, we don't change. And if there isn't a single name that's popular among at least half the voters, we don't change. Chag sameach! -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Apr 13 01:44:52 2006 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:44:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] Message-ID: <20060412234452.GA1166@linuxmafia.com> For some reason, Mailman has declined to propagate my posting from earlier today. Thus this re-send. If you end up getting it twice, oops! ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 15:10:20 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: Rich Morin Cc: baypiggies at python.org Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] Quoting Rich Morin (rdm at cfcl.com): > My take is that a user group's name isn't ever going to be > very important as a draw, but that it could be a detriment. > If folks are finding the current name to be a problem, pick > a boring name for official use (the "in crowd" can show how > cool they are by using the old name :-). Hi, my thanks to Rich Morin for the above, and apologies about being slow to reply. Oh dear, this looks like one of those conversions peppered with symbolic code-phrases: "unprofessional": In completely _different_ contexts, this would have straightforward and relevant meaning. Those would be, well, professional contexts -- ones where people are expected, for money-making reasons, to follow the forms conventionally in line with business purpose. But of course _that_ doesn't apply to a volunteer Python group. So, it's really just being used as a codephrase meaning "The speaker feels its silly and would prefer it to go away, but can't cite any _real_ reason, but 'unprofessional' sounds vaguely disapproving, so let's use that." I don't mean to dismiss people ending up feeling that way: That's an honest reaction (from some folk) that shoudl be fairly acknowledged. My point solely is that the term is distortive and (whether so intended or not, and I assume not) ends up being cheap polemics. "has about zero appeal for anyone I know": Seems like overstressing kneejerk reaction from some humourless people, and mostly a screen for the "I just don't like this name" view noted previously. _However_, echoing Rich's point, granting the premise isn't reason to rename the group: Rather, it's reason one might want to sometimes refer to it by an altered version of its name. Maybe I'm weird or I studied formal rhetoric too long, but I recall having done this instinctively, and not sat on my ass waiting for official permission, either. That is, if I intuited that someone wouldn't find "BayPIGgies" amusing, I substituted "{Silicon Valley|Bay [Area]} Python Group" on the fly. I mean, isn't that obvious. Don't _you_ do that? Why not? And, if you _do_, then what's this teapot tempest about? Looking back, I'm not sure I clearly remember when I first heard the name "BayPIGgies" but _am_ sure I didn't know my wife had named it. I _think_ the first few seconds were like this: 'BayPIGGies'? WTF? Oh, like 'FIG'. I get it. Still, 'PIG'. That's... eccentric. Wait; I _like_ eccentric. But with the 'ies' prefix, it's cloying. No, wait, it's _mock_ cloying: That's brilliant. And so nice to not have yet another boring, completely unimaginative name. "consistent with": Means "20,000 dying lemmings can't be wrong", aka boring and sleep-inducing is good because it's bland and inoffensive. See also: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#best-practices This is the impulse towards flavourless mediocrity that, e.g., lead SVLUG to stop using the term "Foo of the Month" for short presentations because one nitwit felt the term was "too geeky" (for a Linux group!) and another poorly educated aspiring bluenose asserted (in error) that the term originated in "Fu**ed Up Beyond All Repair" and bleated that SVLUG must not be guilty of profanity. (Said officious ignoramus could not be bothered to look even as far as the Jargon File: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/F/foo.html) So -- and hold onto your lunch -- specifically to appease these two techno-tards, SVLUG has renamed its short-presentation segment "Nifty of the Month". Nifty! Polyester knit pastel bellbottoms are "nifty". Sheesh. That's the sort of lame-ass result you get when you succumb to the urge to eliminate all possible complaints. Blandness, and room-temperature IQ. There is also a recurring nitwit initative to rename "BayLISA", the sysadmin group. Suggestions are always "more professional" (bland) and "more inclusive" (vague and stupifying). Rich _actually_ wanted to consult with me on geographical coverage, though. > If it were my decision, I think I'd try to define a region that covers > the "inner" bay area: Alameda, San Francisco, San Mateo, and San Jose > counties. Folks from Contra Costa and Marin are welcome to attend, > but no special effort gets made on their behalf. I concur, absolutely. BayLISA deals with this same issue repeatedly: Someone in Berkeley says "Gee, Cupertino's a long way to drive." A San Franciscan says "I live in the Mission, and the city charter says it's unlawful to force me to drive south of Cesar Chavez Street. Besides, I'm not sure I have my visa for trips to San Mateo County." After pondering the matter for a long while, BayLISA leadership found that there was enough interest in S.F. meetings that regular ones might be held there if locals to staff the meeting and a reliable, suitable venue could be found. For the North Bay, we helped a new, independent sister group get founded, which now meets monthly in Sebastopol. If someone in Concord / Walnut Creek wished, we'd assist in setting up a group there, too. In other words, we decided to concentrate on (roughly) San Jose to S.F., and help found additional groups elsewhere. Not everyone likes this, and, (note!) this is OK and expected. We're not the Sysadmin Tooth Fairy. For a group to remain stable and build _new_ attendence, in general you want to keep the following as consistent as possible: o The group's name o The group's Internet domain o Venues o The recurring date/times of events. Consistency and predictability are very much your friends, so you should need a _very_ compelling reason to impair those. ----- End forwarded message ----- From jon at coral8.com Thu Apr 13 02:06:39 2006 From: jon at coral8.com (Jon Rosen) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:06:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443D960F.6010103@coral8.com> I haven't posted much to this group, but this thread motivated me to do so. I have been using Python for about a year, and I have attended three user group meetings. I think the name issue is a red herring. The problems I have had with the meetings are the relative disorganization that has struck me as not very useful for a newcomer. The scheduled talks at the meetings I attended were more or less content-free (although there was an impromptu talk that was given at the Google meeting several months back on eggs and easy_install that was superb and well worth attending despite all the other issues I had with the meeting). Things that are relatively common at other user groups (like introductions of new attendees, introductions of the "organizers" and "important people" like Guido, open discussion Q&A, active "birds of a feather" groups, etc.) are completely absent at least at the meetings I have attended. I think that responsibility lies with the organizers. I understand the current organizers may have outside issues, and if that is the case, maybe there needs to be an infusion of new blood. I voted to keep the name as is. I do hope the format of the meetings and structure of the group becomes, not necessarily more "professional" but certainly more "organized". Jon Chad Harrington wrote: >As the (only?) VP of Marketing in the group, I have to say I hate the name >BayPIGgies. I support voting for a new name. I also support creating a >formalized structure for the group. > >Chad Harrington >harrington_chad at hotmail.com > > > > From rdm at cfcl.com Thu Apr 13 03:48:43 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:48:43 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] Message-ID: [Arrgh. I replied to Rick, rather than to the group. Sorry for the chronological disarray... -r] At 3:10 PM -0700 4/12/06, Rick Moen wrote: > But of course _that_ doesn't apply to a volunteer Python group. > So, it's really just being used as a codephrase meaning "The > speaker feels its silly and would prefer it to go away, but can't > cite any _real_ reason, but 'unprofessional' sounds vaguely > disapproving, so let's use that." I think it's a bit more important than that. Let's say that I've given a talk on Modular Wombats for the local Python group. If my resume needs filler (after 35 years in the field, this is NOT my problem :), I might want to list this appearance. Do I want to put in the following: Presentations The Care and Feeding of Modular Wombats BayPIGgies, April 1, 2006 I think not. Or, maybe I'm considering volunteering as the program chairman for the group. Part of my motivation might be the ability to brag about this position, but "Program Chairman for BayPIGgies" doesn't really look or sound as good as it might. Given some names that I've chosen: Canta Forda Computer Laboratory http://www.cfcl.com Beer & Scripting SIG http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass I can hardly be accused of being a leather-bound conservative in these matters. However, I understand the problem that Marilyn has with the name and I don't think that having a more formal name (to use when the informal name would be "unsuitable") is a problem. > ... if I intuited that someone wouldn't find "BayPIGgies" amusing, > I substituted "{Silicon Valley|Bay [Area]} Python Group" on the fly. Actually, the web site currently gives an alternate expansion: We are the Silicon Valley-San Francisco Bay Area Python Users Group. http://www.baypiggies.net/ However, this is (a) rather prolix and (b) is (probably) just a description, rather than an "official name" which can be used on a resume, etc. Given that Rick couldn't recall it on demand (nor could I :-), I suspect that changing it wouldn't cause any dislocations... -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 13 03:34:30 2006 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Rich Morin wrote: > I think it's a bit more important than that. Let's say that I've given > a talk on Modular Wombats for the local Python group. If my resume > needs filler (after 35 years in the field, this is NOT my problem :), I > might want to list this appearance. Do I want to put in the following: > > Presentations > > The Care and Feeding of Modular Wombats > BayPIGgies, April 1, 2006 > > I think not. Oh. *runs to rapidly revise resume* In seriousness: when I'm mentioning BayPIGgies in official documentation, I've gone out of my way to spell it out as: Bay Area Python Interest Group (BayPIGgies) because it seems nice to spell out acronyms, and because it isn't obvious at all that BayPIGgies is a programmer user group just from reading the acronym. (Plus I thought that it was good English writing style to spell out acronyms when they're first introduced.) I'm not convinced at all that the use of BayPIGgies as the group's acronym is a mark of shame on a resume. I'm not a hiring manager, but I'd personally be impressed that someone goes to a user group in the first place, because that's usually a good indicator that they take their craft sincerely and seriously. If we cared about appearances, and thought that we needed a few good resume-boosting keywords in there, I propose "Google-Ironport Python Bay Area Group" (GIPBAG) just to get a few good keywords in there... But even though this thread is fun, I hope it ends soon; I want to talk about programming and concentrate on real values, and not variable names. From cappy2112 at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 05:15:03 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:15:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604122015k1567f522y4224a4c36689f467@mail.gmail.com> > > >>Area Group" (GIPBAG) just to get a few good keywords in there... > This one will surely attract a lot of speakers ;-0 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060412/5a26e13e/attachment.html From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Thu Apr 13 06:32:21 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:32:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Why not generalize this poll to "Voting on what our priorities are?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Expanding on Kael's point, maybe we should generalize Marilyn's poll to give us the most useful result, e.g. something like: "Rank the following actions in order of priority they should be dealt with:" 1) Decide the group name 2) Fix meeting agendas by a deadline, confirm them and publicise them clearly and early 3) Appoint officers and define their responsibilities and term limits clearly 4) Concerted effort to invite speakers 5) Improve number and quality of talks 6) Be more accomodating to newbies 7) ...whatever other topics you want to suggest... n-1) Add networking and random access sections to meeting n) Improve the logistics of carpooling and snack organization (these are important in attracting people who have to travel some distance) then deal with the results in strict order. If indeed 1) turns up as anything like the #1 topic, I would be very surprised, but at least we would have a consensus, and could at last escape from this discussion loop to taking action. Seems most people agree some set of things needs to change, but no consensus. For what it's worth my personal vote would be 2, 3, 4, 5, n, n-1, 6, ... and 1 would come in last. (Alternatively, I could put up a second poll after end of the survey and in time for May.) Thoughts? Stephen From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Apr 13 07:28:22 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:28:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] What's "organized"? In-Reply-To: <443D960F.6010103@coral8.com> References: <443D960F.6010103@coral8.com> Message-ID: <20060413052822.GB26827@panix.com> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006, Jon Rosen wrote: > > I think that responsibility lies with the organizers. I understand > the current organizers may have outside issues, and if that is the > case, maybe there needs to be an infusion of new blood. While calling me an organizer is correct in some technical sense, I really don't think of myself as an organizer. Yes, I do some cat herding for the group, but really I mostly see myself as just helping to maintain the infrastructure. I suspect some of the other people "in charge" feel similarly. It really takes no official standing to be an organizer, just a willingness to prod people into moving! Anyone who wants to can seek out presentations and speakers. The mailing list is your forum. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From jim at well.com Thu Apr 13 07:41:40 2006 From: jim at well.com (jim stockford) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:41:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Why not generalize this poll to "Voting on what our priorities are?" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E87393B-CAB0-11DA-B15D-000A95EA5592@well.com> excellent idea to generalize the poll to determine and rank issues for action. How to do that? (4,5,6,n-1, 2,...3,7,n,0xFFFFFFFF,0,1) On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:32 PM, Stephen McInerney wrote: > Expanding on Kael's point, maybe we should generalize Marilyn's poll > to give > us the most useful result, e.g. something like: > > "Rank the following actions in order of priority they should be dealt > with:" > 1) Decide the group name > 2) Fix meeting agendas by a deadline, confirm them and publicise them > clearly and early > 3) Appoint officers and define their responsibilities and term limits > clearly > 4) Concerted effort to invite speakers > 5) Improve number and quality of talks > 6) Be more accomodating to newbies > 7) ...whatever other topics you want to suggest... > n-1) Add networking and random access sections to meeting > n) Improve the logistics of carpooling and snack organization (these > are > important in attracting > people who have to travel some distance) > > then deal with the results in strict order. > If indeed 1) turns up as anything like the #1 topic, I would be very > surprised, but at least we would have a consensus, and could at last > escape > from this discussion loop to taking action. > Seems most people agree some set of things needs to change, but no > consensus. > > For what it's worth my personal vote would be 2, 3, 4, 5, n, n-1, 6, > ... and > 1 would come in last. > > (Alternatively, I could put up a second poll after end of the survey > and in > time for May.) > > Thoughts? > Stephen > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Apr 13 08:14:56 2006 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:14:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060413061456.GX5596@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Danny Yoo (dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu): > > I think not. > > Oh. *runs to rapidly revise resume* > > In seriousness: when I'm mentioning BayPIGgies in official documentation, > I've gone out of my way to spell it out as: > > Bay Area Python Interest Group (BayPIGgies) > > because it seems nice to spell out acronyms, and because it isn't obvious > at all that BayPIGgies is a programmer user group just from reading the > acronym. (Plus I thought that it was good English writing style to spell > out acronyms when they're first introduced.) I'm glad at least _one_ reader understood my point as intended. For a while, I was quite seriously wondering if shortage of sleep had prevented me from being coherent. (You might have noticed more than my usual quota of typos.) I mean no slight to anyone, in saying that, and hope nobody will take it. I just rose from a few hours of sleep, and was going to double-check to see if I'd flubbed that post! I was, actually, more than a bit perplexed at the original conundrum, which one might paraphrase as "Bad things might happen if I put 'BayPIGgies' on my resume' -- which immediately made me think, quoting the ancient technical support joke, "Well, Don't Do That, Then." My point thus was not to belabour a problem, but rather to point out its (happy) absence. It's not even "Having to make up a false name" or any other such rot: The acronym "PIG" is, well, an _acronym_: It stands for a longer, semantically equivalent phrase, nu? I mean, I feel rather silly, even having to point that out. Again, it seems like the point is _so blindingly obvious_ that I can only hope and guess that the matter under discussion is a coded disguise for some other conflict that I'm entirely unaware of, since otherwise the issue seems inordinately silly even for a user group dispute. If it's merely Silly Season and I missed the memo, my apologies. From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Apr 13 08:18:07 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:18:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2006, at 6:34 PM, Danny Yoo wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Rich Morin wrote: > >> I think it's a bit more important than that. Let's say that I've >> given >> a talk on Modular Wombats for the local Python group. If my resume >> needs filler (after 35 years in the field, this is NOT my >> problem :), I >> might want to list this appearance. Do I want to put in the >> following: >> >> Presentations >> >> The Care and Feeding of Modular Wombats >> BayPIGgies, April 1, 2006 >> >> I think not. > > Oh. *runs to rapidly revise resume* If your resume is so thin that you need to add this sort of thing, you have an entirely different problem, especially given that anyone can join and anyone interested in Python has an opportunity to present at a BayPIGgies meeting. This isn't a putdown to anyone who has it on their resume, obviously. It was never intended to be (nor will it ever be) as much of a resume- builder as, say, speaking at an O'Reilly conference. Or MacWorld. Or LinuxWorld (all of which I've done, but none of those are on my resume either). -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu Thu Apr 13 07:41:52 2006 From: rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu (Robert Stephenson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:41:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Let's vote and move on! In-Reply-To: <20060412230152.GA7007@panix.com> References: <20060412230152.GA7007@panix.com> Message-ID: As an long-time lurker and part-time meeting attendee, I think the big issues confronting BayPIGgies (or Silicon Valley-San Francisco Bay Area Python Users Group, or whatever...) are continuity and organization. With all this local talent it would be a shame to see the group fall apart. Many of us spend an hour or two driving to the meetings for the stimulation and fellowship that they have provided, and that we hope they will continue to provide. The name change issue risks becoming a major distraction at a critical time. Some folks obviously feel strongly about the name, so let's decide and get over it. The voting guidelines Aahz has proposed sound reasonable to me: ChangeNameToX = (1/3 of list members voting) & (2/3 of votes favor change) & \ (1/2 of votes favor name X) Marilyn has provided a mechanism for voting (at http:// jacq.istos.com.au/python/), so let's see if we meet the first two tests. If so, we can proceed to discuss alternatives. Let's just vote and move on: http://jacq.istos.com.au/python/ - Rob On Apr 12, 2006, at 4:01 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Wed, Apr 12, 2006, Terry Carroll wrote: >> >> I disagree that a name change should require 2/3 of all members, >> which >> effectively means that not voting is the same as voting "no." Not >> voting is the same as not voting. It indicates not caring; it does >> not indicate a preference for no change. > > Note carefully that the metric I proposed was different: > > * 1/3 of list members voting > > * 2/3 majority of voters preferring name change > > * minimum 1/2 of all voters approving the new name > > This was in opposition to the claim that it was appropriate for 10% of > the group to choose a new name. That is not acceptable IMO. IOW, if > there aren't a third of the group who care enough, we don't > change. If > the people voting can't muster a 2/3 majority in favor of a new > name, we > don't change. And if there isn't a single name that's popular > among at > least half the voters, we don't change. > > Chag sameach! > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http:// > www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Thu Apr 13 10:02:06 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 01:02:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Don't be so down, for what it's worth I am very proud to include the affiliation on my resume, in the way other people do: "Member, Bay Area Python Interest Group (BayPIGgies)" I list it alongside "Member, IEEE" and I consider them equally important. That's praise indeed. You will also now find 13 LinkedIn listings containing 'BayPIGgies' (increasing quickly). It's important to get the word 'Python' in the affiliations + work experience. In some more progressive areas of electronic design automation, Python is very gradually becoming important. Stephen From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Apr 13 10:40:26 2006 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 01:40:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060413084026.GY5596@linuxmafia.com> [It seems like for some reason I am not getting most recent list posts. Weird. I've just double-checked via the Web archive.] Quoting Rich Morin: [snip] > Given that Rick couldn't recall it on demand (nor could > I :-), I suspect that changing it wouldn't cause any dislocations... I'm _mystified_ as to why Rich thought I was trying to "recall" anything, and this more than anything else is why I feared I might have somehow utterly failed to articulate my point. The point is that -- obviously -- you could so easily and very naturally put a variant form of this group's name "on your resume" (it not mattering much _what_ that variant is, or whether it's "official", whatever that means) that apparently this objection, like the equally meaningless-in-this-context phrase "unprofessional", is a symbolic codephrase that, when you pass it through a semantics-detection filter, boils down to "I just don't like it". I can respect "I just don't like it." Saying "I just don't like it" has the advantage of brevity, plus averting confusion, wasted energy, and the need to spend time debunking nonsensical symbolic justifications. From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Apr 13 10:55:33 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 01:55:33 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7022B36A-3257-4DE0-97E9-A0DB592BFAC2@deirdre.net> On Apr 13, 2006, at 1:02 AM, Stephen McInerney wrote: > Don't be so down, for what it's worth I am very proud to include > the affiliation on my resume, I question the value, though, of putting memberships that one pays for (or not) on one's resume, because it really says nothing about who you are (other than you paid for membership). I tend to think adding another well-chosen sentence about what you've done is more useful. Now, if one was serving in some professional group in some official capacity, sure. But just a membership? What that says to me: the person has nothing else more interesting to fill the space with. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Thu Apr 13 11:31:06 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 02:31:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies name [was: April agenda?] In-Reply-To: <7022B36A-3257-4DE0-97E9-A0DB592BFAC2@deirdre.net> Message-ID: >Now, if one was serving in some professional group in some official >capacity, sure. But just a membership? What that says to me: the >person has nothing else more interesting to fill the space with. But that's my point. We don't have officers, or any formal structure. I mean we could all give ourselves inflated titles but that would be dishonest: ('Active Member'/ 'Volunteer'/ 'Speaker' /'Organizer')? (What do you suggest? I only have one line of real estate to explain my affiliation.) To justfiy use of the word 'unprofessional': badly organized, sloppy, casual, unstable, unrepresentative, unprepared, lacking focus, continuity or structure. But let's keep the dialog constructive. Stephen From marilyn at deliberate.com Thu Apr 13 16:23:14 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Deirdre said: > If you're worried about membership in a professional organization, > let me be the first to say that BayPIGgies was never intended as a > professional organization: there weren't dues, there weren't $1000+ > conferences, there were just people who happened to be interested in > Python. It was not organized as a group of people interested in a > name change for a group about Python. Thank you Deirdre. That clears up everything for me! I wish you would have said that in the beginning when Wes asked for people to step forward to be leaders and so I said: > I would like to be active in a professional group that is centered > around Python. But I am reticent to step forward here for two > reasons. One is the name. 'Baypiggies' is cute but it doesn't say > what we are or suggest professionalism. The other obstacle to my > whole-hearted participation is the expectation that private email > messages carry an obligation of secrecy for the recipient. I wonder > if there is a mechanism for changing these things? It's true that my department director cringed and became dismissive of me after I told him I was giving a talk at baypiggies, even after I said what it was, but that's not my big issue. I can certainly remember to say the whole name next time. After much thought, I realize that the deeper problem I have with the name is that it is degrading, self-defeating, and impolite. I think I concentrated on 'silly' and 'unprofessional' in the beginning to be kind, so I wouldn't have to say words like those. There is no other group name I have ever heard of, or read about in this conversation, that fits adjectives like those. On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Rich Morin wrote: > I felt a bit funny voting for a new name, as I'm not a > big user of Python and have never attended a meeting. > > However, having been involved in the leadership of a > number of organizations, I recognize the significance > of names, etc. If the group is going to become a > professional organization (still an open question!), You see, I had no idea that this was an open question or the poll would have been about this. If anyone else wants to set up a poll about this question, or any question, you can do so, without my help or anyone's permission, via an email command. To learn how: 1. Send a message to: python at deliberate.com 2. The subject doesn't matter. 3. The message should say: eVote help poll end BTW, the instructions talk about the 'list'. This is because usually eVote is integrated with an email list so that discussion and voting can share the same address, subject line, and list of email addresses. In our case, messages that don't start with the word 'eVote' will be eaten instead of sent to everyone. Gawd, I love this old software. Thanks for the excuse to display it. Marilyn p.s. John Jacq tells me that the web site's server is up again: http://jacq.istos.com.au/python Or, if you like sticking to email: 1. Send a message to: python at deliberate.com 2. The subject must be: Change name? 3. Your message must be: eVote n <- where n is 1, 0, or -1 end From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Apr 13 16:53:47 2006 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:53:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060413145347.GA5596@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Marilyn Davis (marilyn at deliberate.com): > After much thought, I realize that the deeper problem I have with the > name is that it is degrading, self-defeating, and impolite. I think I > concentrated on 'silly' and 'unprofessional' in the beginning to be > kind, so I wouldn't have to say words like those. You should get that contextual blindness problem looked at. It could be serious. -- Cheers, "Learning Java has been a slow and tortuous process for me. Every Rick Moen few minutes, I start screaming 'No, you fools!' and have to go rick at linuxmafia.com read something from _Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs_ to de-stress." -- The Cube, www.forum3000.org From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Apr 13 17:08:42 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:08:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: No flames on BayPIGgies In-Reply-To: <20060413145347.GA5596@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060413145347.GA5596@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20060413150842.GB27809@panix.com> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Marilyn Davis (marilyn at deliberate.com): >> >> After much thought, I realize that the deeper problem I have with the >> name is that it is degrading, self-defeating, and impolite. I think >> I concentrated on 'silly' and 'unprofessional' in the beginning to be >> kind, so I wouldn't have to say words like those. > > You should get that contextual blindness problem looked at. It could > be serious. This is not quite an official warning, but I want to head things off quickly: flames are not permitted on BayPIGgies. For the purpose of this list, flames are defined as excessivly strong language and/or insults directed at specific people or groups of people. While BayPIGgies is not a professional group, many people use the group for professional purposes, and the language we use should reflect that. Note: although this message is triggered by the exchange between Marilyn and Rick, I think several people have been overusing heated language lately (and I'm probably at least somewhat guilty). I hope we don't drive anyone away because of that. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From willy.lee at page44.com Thu Apr 13 17:21:52 2006 From: willy.lee at page44.com (Willy Lee) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:21:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443E6C90.6000908@page44.com> Marilyn Davis wrote: > > It's true that my department director cringed and became dismissive of > me after I told him I was giving a talk at baypiggies, even after I > said what it was, but that's not my big issue. I can certainly > remember to say the whole name next time. > > After much thought, I realize that the deeper problem I have with the > name is that it is degrading, self-defeating, and impolite. I have real difficulty understanding this point of view -- how can someone "cringe" or become dismissive of someone for giving a talk at a group just because it's called "baypiggies"? How can the name be thought of as degrading or impolite? I even have trouble understanding how it can be thought of as "unprofessional". To me, as others have said, it's a standard acronym for interest groups, with a fairly common (according to wiki.python.org) cute locution. A nickname, as it were. For a language named after a comedy troupe that shares the name of an animal (a snake, which seems to me just as many people have bad feelings about as pigs), it seems appropriate to me and not at all unprofessional or degrading to have an associated group name that sounds like another animal. And again, as already mentioned, you can always use the long name. I voted no on the poll and I do hope this discussion about the name goes away, I find it nonsensical. Please, let's talk about Python, our Interests in, rather than pigs; let them get their own language. Going back to lurking, =wl From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Apr 13 17:40:27 2006 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:40:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: No flames on BayPIGgies In-Reply-To: <20060413150842.GB27809@panix.com> References: <20060413145347.GA5596@linuxmafia.com> <20060413150842.GB27809@panix.com> Message-ID: <20060413154027.GB5596@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com): > For the purpose of this list, flames are defined as excessivly strong > language and/or insults directed at specific people or groups of > people. You say that as if contextual blindness were a _bad_ thing. It may turn out to have significant evolutionary advantages. Really, now, Aahz. Mentioning in passing that someone seems to be displaying contextual blindness is bad language? Good thing I didn't say something _really_ scandalous, like speculating that you might possibly be a little hard of hearing. -- Cheers, I have a mind like a steel trap. Rick Moen Rusty, and illegal in thirty-seven states. rick at linuxmafia.com From marilyn at deliberate.com Thu Apr 13 17:54:58 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: <20060413145347.GA5596@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Marilyn Davis (marilyn at deliberate.com): > > > After much thought, I realize that the deeper problem I have with the > > name is that it is degrading, self-defeating, and impolite. I think I > > concentrated on 'silly' and 'unprofessional' in the beginning to be > > kind, so I wouldn't have to say words like those. > > You should get that contextual blindness problem looked at. It could be > serious. Ouch. I once attended a SV Entrepreneur's Forum meeting where the speaker was some advertising genius. He said that, no matter what the context, some words are "poison" and will turn off your readers and not sell your stuff. But, all this arguing is pretty pointless. I'm sure everyone's opinion is set and they can express it or not. Here are the current stats: ======= == ==== ===== === ======= RESULTS OF YOUR EVOTE WHO COMMAND ======= == ==== ===== === ======= 320 participants 26 voters Possible votes are from -1 to 1. 9 --> Number of Positive Voters 14 --> Number of Negative Voters 0.64 --> Ratio of Positive to Negative Voters 9 --> Sum of Positive Votes 14 --> Sum of Negative Votes 0.64 --> Ratio of Sums, Positive to Negative -0.19 --> Average of All Votes Anyone can get the stats, and a list of how each address voted at any time by: 1. Write to: python at deliberate.com 2. Subject must be: Change name? 3. Message must be: eVote who end I will say again, in the general case, when taking an email vote, and considering what a quorum might be, that the number of email addresses on the email list is not a good representation of the number of people in the group. So many people don't really read the mail, but just archive it. By reading the list of addresses, it is clear that some people have more than one address subscribed, including Aahz. And, if people are reading, but not voting, that could be indicate that they don't really consider themselves to be part of the group, for whatever reason, so they ought not be counted in any way. Making a different algorithm that uses the number of addresses subscribed is a recipe for avoiding group decision-making. You know, Python is such a dynamite language, and has such ardent fans, including me, that this group will survive anything. I just wish it was more of an asset to the language. Marilyn From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Apr 13 17:57:42 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:57:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <044DD1E7-4BC5-4B66-9084-DFC7A3F77B9E@deirdre.net> On Apr 13, 2006, at 7:23 AM, Marilyn Davis wrote: > It's true that my department director cringed and became dismissive of > me after I told him I was giving a talk at baypiggies, even after I > said what it was, but that's not my big issue. I can certainly > remember to say the whole name next time. The big issue, as you've stated, appears to be that you're taking out your inability to communicate with your boss on a large group of people who have no such issue. > After much thought, I realize that the deeper problem I have with the > name is that it is degrading, self-defeating, and impolite. This is a language named for a comedy troupe. Perhaps you should specialize in something like perl or ruby, where the name has no such silly baggage. Sir Lancelot: Look, my liege! [trumpets play a fanfare as the camera cuts briefly to the sight of a majestic castle] King Arthur: [in awe] Camelot! Sir Galahad: [in awe] Camelot! Sir Lancelot: [in awe] Camelot! Patsy: [derisively] It's only a model! King Arthur: Shh! King Arthur: On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place. And, I agree with Willy: there's as much negative baggage with pythons as there is with pigs. I happen to like both, but I've always been odd. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Thu Apr 13 18:04:11 2006 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:04:11 -0600 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > After much thought, I realize that the deeper problem I have with the > name is that it is degrading, self-defeating, and impolite. C'mon. There is a serious lack of sense of humor here. Remember over the years there are many people who have made presentations and shared ideas in this forum. It is disrespectful to make this kind depiction on them. I really think we should put this issue to rest. There is too much negative energy flowing around. Again a dose of sense of humor should go a long way. Wai Yip From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Thu Apr 13 18:54:52 2006 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:54:52 -0600 Subject: [Baypiggies] A call of truce on the naming issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I propose we put the name change issue to rest for now and re-prioritize it as a mid-term issue, perhaps to be revisited in the year end time frame. The immediate issue should be studying the survey result, finding volunteers to better organize the meeting and maintain the website, and take other constructive ideas on improving the meeting. After this is on track we can consider making name suggestions, get endorsements and build a consensus. Despite some claim I don't belive a name change right away is an eminent issue. If half of the group want a name change now and half of the group feel this is being forced upon them, it would create a rift that make it whole lot more difficult to address the organizational issue we have right now. I'm fine with the current name, but I'm not oppose to picking a different name either. What I don't want to see is this becoming an emotional and divisive issue. If we decide to change the name, it should be done in a constructive manner. Much like the new web design of python.org it should be seen as a face-lift by most rather than that the old design as a liability that should be ashame of. I believe the discussions we have recently would present us an opportunity to get better organized. It should not be turned into a crisis. Wai Yip From mrbmahoney at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 20:21:07 2006 From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:21:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] A call of truce on the naming issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5538c19b0604131121x14008e96o560940829aca2230@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Tung Wai Yip wrote: > I propose we put the name change issue to rest for now and re-prioritize > it as a mid-term issue, perhaps to be revisited in the year end time > frame. The immediate issue should be studying the survey result, finding > volunteers to better organize the meeting and maintain the website, and > take other constructive ideas on improving the meeting. After this is on > track we can consider making name suggestions, get endorsements and build > a consensus. > > Despite some claim I don't belive a name change right away is an eminent > issue. If half of the group want a name change now and half of the group > feel this is being forced upon them, it would create a rift that make it > whole lot more difficult to address the organizational issue we have right > now. > > I'm fine with the current name, but I'm not oppose to picking a different > name either. What I don't want to see is this becoming an emotional and > divisive issue. > > If we decide to change the name, it should be done in a constructive > manner. Much like the new web design of python.org it should be seen as a > face-lift by most rather than that the old design as a liability that > should be ashame of. > > I believe the discussions we have recently would present us an opportunity > to get better organized. It should not be turned into a crisis. > > Wai Yip > _______________________________________________ Thank you, Wai Yip. Yes, truce. I've passed the point where I can follow the e-mail threads on the name change. Brian From cappy2112 at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 20:34:49 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:34:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] A call of truce on the naming issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604131134t61e8bb63p8c282efd582c1468@mail.gmail.com> >>Despite some claim I don't believe a name change right away is an eminent >>issue. I highly agree on this. I (and several others) have suggested this before. It is the least important concern of this group. It's only a minor cosmetic issue, and can be revisited at a later date. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060413/6e947733/attachment.htm From DennisR at dair.com Thu Apr 13 20:37:50 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:37:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Mapping/Random Access at tonight's meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060413111846.00bf8e28@localhost> At tonight's meeting, the agendas distributed on this mailing list propose a mapping/random access session starting at 8:30 as an upgrade for our current "announcements". During mapping, audience members would stand and describe brief pointers to interesting information such as new programming frameworks and tools job openings new books meetings and upcoming events etc. Brevity is the spoken length of a Google Ad, a classified listing, or about 30 seconds. What is said consists of "headlines", not the articles themselves. Discussion and elaboration are discouraged during mapping. The purpose of mapping is to allow everyone to know who has interesting information. At the conclusion of mapping, random access commences. Most people end up leaving their seats and end up talking with whomever interests them (including the speaker for the evening). Random access is a good time to personally convey any handouts which were brought. Insofar as there is no official "janitor" office, anyone bringing handouts, please take responsibility to remove any not taken away by audience. I am looking for comments here in advance so there is a meeting of the minds going in. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From carroll at tjc.com Thu Apr 13 23:07:07 2006 From: carroll at tjc.com (Terry Carroll) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: <044DD1E7-4BC5-4B66-9084-DFC7A3F77B9E@deirdre.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > The big issue, as you've stated, appears to be that you're taking out > your inability to communicate with your boss on a large group of > people who have no such issue. No. The issue is some people really don't like the name, and are trying to determine whether that opinion is largely shared, and if so, what do do about it. You're adding a layer of interpretation that can't fairly be ascribed to the people you're responding to. If most people want the name to stay the same, it ought to stay the same. But I'm finding many of the posts from those who want the name to stay the same to be rather disrespectful and distasteful, to tell you the truth. I've seen comments that those who would like a name-change have an "inability to communicate"; or need to examine their life; or have "contextual blindness"; and others. It would be very nice if we could just continue with getting the opinion on whether the name should be changed without this level of disrespect for one another and for one another's positions and opinions. If you think the name should remain the same, great. If you think the name should be changed, great. Make your point. Let's not try to attribute someone else's opinions to some underlying motiviation that you think makes them a lesser person, okay? From mrbmahoney at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 23:15:49 2006 From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:15:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Some organizational tips Message-ID: <5538c19b0604131415s6f488b49q39718078d709497@mail.gmail.com> Walter Vannini of ACCU kindly sent me information about their practices (with permission to pass it on). ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Walter Vannini (snip) Unfortunately, I won't be able to attend tonight's meeting. As for my insights into running a user group, I have two sources to draw from: as well as being President of the local ACCU group, I'm also Secretary of the local SIGGRAPH group. In both cases, the story is similar. There's a small group of volunteers (four of us in the ACCU, five of us in SIGGRAPH) who each own some task. In the case of the ACCU, we've identified six tasks: updating the website as needed sending out email reminders to members booking the meeting room publicizing the talks (eg Craig's list, Mercury News ...) finding and staying in contact with potential speakers introducing the speaker at the monthly meeting While Reg Charney was in the area, he did all of the above (and more). When he left a year ago, the core tasks were identified and volunteers stepped up to take responsibility. The tasks are currently owned by four of us. There has been some shifting of the task ownership during the last year (three of the tasks have changed owners), and the group of volunteers has changed over time (one volunteer dropped out six months ago, and a new volunteer joined us two months ago) but each task has always had a clear owner. Also, if the owner of a task is no longer able to do the task (for example, the room booker leaves PayPal and no longer has the ability to book the room) he contacts the core group (NOT the general membership) to alert them to the problem. That's pretty much the framework. Ultimately, everything works because the volunteers get along and want it to work. Being clear about what needs to be done and who is going to do it is the other part. Feel free to redistribute this message if you think it's appropriate. I wish BayPiggies the best of luck during this transition time! All the best, Walter --- end forwarded message --- From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Apr 13 23:19:30 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:19:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32E6511E-5E68-4DE2-8C99-6CA023BB39AF@deirdre.net> On Apr 13, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Terry Carroll wrote: > On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > >> The big issue, as you've stated, appears to be that you're taking out >> your inability to communicate with your boss on a large group of >> people who have no such issue. > > No. The issue is some people really don't like the name, and are > trying > to determine whether that opinion is largely shared, and if so, > what do do > about it. So far, per Marilyn's earlier post, 9 wanted to change, 14 didn't, 3 abstained, and fewer than 10% bothered to vote at all (over the past 30 hours). 2.8% of the list wants change. Therefore, I'd argue that there isn't a compelling mandate for change. > You're adding a layer of interpretation that can't fairly be > ascribed to > the people you're responding to. It was a direct response to Marilyn's admission, and I think it was a fair interpretation. > If most people want the name to stay the same, it ought to stay the > same. See above. > But I'm finding many of the posts from those who want the name to > stay the > same to be rather disrespectful and distasteful, to tell you the > truth. Personally, I'm finding the reasons people want to change the name, well, peculiar. I mean, I could understand just not liking the name, but people have been painting much broader brushes that seemed disrespectful and illogical. Illogic tastes bad. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 13 23:51:24 2006 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: <32E6511E-5E68-4DE2-8C99-6CA023BB39AF@deirdre.net> References: <32E6511E-5E68-4DE2-8C99-6CA023BB39AF@deirdre.net> Message-ID: >> But I'm finding many of the posts from those who want the name to stay >> the same to be rather disrespectful and distasteful, to tell you the >> truth. > > Personally, I'm finding the reasons people want to change the name, > well, peculiar. I mean, I could understand just not liking the name, but > people have been painting much broader brushes that seemed disrespectful > and illogical. Illogic tastes bad. Hi Deirdre, Yeah, but humans are not necessarily logical, nor should we always mandate that they always are. And asking people to explain their gut feelings can be an onerous task. As an example of this, I'd recommend a listen to Malcolm Gladwell's talk on human nature: http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail230.html The part that's especially relevant here is his colorful example of the preference of wall-posters experiment. I think the point that we should take from all of this is: some people don't like certain names. I like it, but I can understand that other people may not: for the most part, it's a matter of preference. People may not be able to vocalize their reasons for their preferences. From DennisR at dair.com Fri Apr 14 00:00:01 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:00:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Some organizational tips In-Reply-To: <5538c19b0604131415s6f488b49q39718078d709497@mail.gmail.com > Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060413143536.00bf7e60@localhost> At 02:15 PM 4/13/2006, Brian Mahoney wrote: >From: Walter Vannini >(snip) > >... contacts the core group >(NOT the general membership) to alert them to the problem. My sources are: 1) 3 times Chair of 5000 member Santa Clara Valley IEEE computer Society 2) Treasurer or Chair of Hot Chips 8 and ASPLOS II IEEE Conferences 3) Director and Board Chair of 1400 members Association of Shareware Professionals My experience is the same: general members are not generally involved in operating questions. The issue is when and how is the general membership involved/contacted about passage of leadership? I have seen many ways of handling it: (2) passed leadership primarily by recruitment and appointment via existing volunteers. I should note that the person overseeing this activity was chosen in a general election with genuine competing candidates. (1) passed leadership primarily by vetting among those involved and then conducting an election that was largely pro forma in that there was a single named candidate vs "write-in" (3) Candidates were self-selected and a *real* election with statements and competing discussion ensued. In all cases, there was something called an "election" among the larger membership. Brian, I am sorry to hear you cannot make it tonight. I was inclined to pass up tonight's meeting myself. But I will be there. I might end up as some sort of candidate. At this point, I would like to propose that anything proposed tonight be considered provisional, until ratified by this list. We have Aahz's guidelines for what it takes to secure passage and two volunteers who have demonstrated polling/tallying capability. In my experience, a 1-year term of service works well: elections are held annually. Regards, Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From ross at pcnt.com Fri Apr 14 00:21:36 2006 From: ross at pcnt.com (Ross Parlette) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:21:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] What's In A Name In-Reply-To: <20060412135018.GA13449@panix.com> References: <20060412135018.GA13449@panix.com> Message-ID: I am reminded for some reason for something I read in a footnote in the O'Reilly Exploring Expect book. (From memory:) The usual pronunciation of Tcl is "Tickle" but if that strikes you as unprofessional, feel perfectly free to use the term "Butch Macho Language" instead. I personally think "Bay Area Python Interest Group" (Baypiggies) is completely appropriate. If you wish to leave out the parenthized name, so be it. A search for the string (with or without quotes) brings us up first on Google (as it SHOULD!). I too remember the Figgies, was a long time member, and regret their passing. Ross From rdm at cfcl.com Fri Apr 14 01:34:11 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:34:11 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] What's In A Name In-Reply-To: References: <20060412135018.GA13449@panix.com> Message-ID: At 3:21 PM -0700 4/13/06, Ross Parlette wrote: > I personally think "Bay Area Python Interest Group" (Baypiggies) is > completely appropriate. If you wish to leave out the parenthized > name, so be it. A search for the string (with or without quotes) > brings us up first on Google (as it SHOULD!). Fine with me. However, the web page doesn't mention this name. Instead, it says: We are the Silicon Valley-San Francisco Bay Area Python Users Group. Is a small edit in order? (ducks) -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 01:42:11 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:42:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Mapping/Random Access at tonight's meeting In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060413111846.00bf8e28@localhost> Message-ID: I agree this is a great proposal. Four questions: - is this when recruiters get to speak? - for recruiters, do you suggest permanently fixing the time at 8:30 right? and let them go first. - if anyone exceeds the ~30sec (e.g. recruiter trying to give a sales pitch/canned history of the company) the meeting moderator politely cuts them off and asks anyone interested to talk to them directly, and the to post the req on the list - for the cross-announces from other groups (ACCU, Bass etc.) it is best to out the fulltext post out before the BayPIGgies meeting so they don't need to read it verbatim. Just: " has an upcoming activity on at by on . Go to for more information." Regards, Stephen From deirdre at deirdre.net Fri Apr 14 02:00:26 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:00:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: <32E6511E-5E68-4DE2-8C99-6CA023BB39AF@deirdre.net> Message-ID: On Apr 13, 2006, at 2:51 PM, Danny Yoo wrote: > I think the point that we should take from all of this is: some > people don't like certain names. Some people don't like snakes either. That's fine. However, by analogy, trying to get other people to stomp out snakes because of one's own bad experience goes beyond illogic -- which was my point in my post to Marilyn. It also seems a lot of arguments about the name (aside from just not liking it) center around political correctness. And that brings up the question of "political correctness for what purpose?" ... which could only really be answered after any possible organizational changes are determined. It's pretty clear that different people have different end goals in mind, which is fine, but no single organization will meet everyone's ideal vision -- nor will any single name. Different organizational goals would suggest different names, thus choosing the name before sorting out the organizational goal seems backwards. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 02:05:17 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:05:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Some organizational tips In-Reply-To: <5538c19b0604131415s6f488b49q39718078d709497@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Brian, Walter's email is great, I have been suggesting there are extra responsibilities with the current BayPIGgies setup: - website maintainers and program manager: the last two months' proceedings showed that we need to decide, clarify and confirm the agenda then publicise it, all by a certain deadline for a meeting. In particular each agenda item should have an owner: "Speakers: various" is a lethally ambiguous phrase and should never ever again appear. - book review coordinator (currently Tony Capp) - snacks coordinator (Ironport nights) (RSVPs, ordering, delivery, $$, tableware) (currently noone) - snacks coordinator (Google nights) (RSVPs, ordering, delivery, $$, tableware) (Donna Snow has volunteered, maybe need helpers) - restaurant coordinator (currently Brian Mahoney at both locations) - logistics (Ironport nights) - logistics (Google nights) where "logistics" means microphones (/radio mics for Q&A), VGA cabling/multiplexer box, projector, laser pointer. Logistics is minimal workload but boy you notice when it's missing. At Google we need to make a concerted effort in the lobby to get people to sign in quickly so we can start on time at 8:30. Wes's email tips were useful. Also most people aren't aware the next person can sign in while the current person's label is printing. Regards, Stephen From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 02:36:27 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:36:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] let's start at 7:30 sharp Message-ID: Hey everyone, If we want to start being formal about the 8:30 cutoff, I think it's important to start at 7:30 sharp. If it's necessary to start at 7:45 because of travel difficulties, that's fine, but then we should move the 8:30 cutoff. :-/ Happy Hacking! -jj From DennisR at dair.com Fri Apr 14 03:06:22 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:06:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Mapping/Random Access at tonight's meeting In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060413111846.00bf8e28@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060413175756.00be15a8@localhost> At 04:42 PM 4/13/2006, you wrote: >I agree this is a great proposal. >Four questions: >- is this when recruiters get to speak? Yes >- for recruiters, do you suggest permanently fixing the time at 8:30 right? > and let them go first. I see the same standards for all announcements. I am proposing something for all of us to follow. The fact is, most recruiting announcements have been made by regular members on behalf of their employers. Believe me, if someone is looking for a job and another member says "I have a job available at PyStartUp" the audience member who is interested is counting the seconds until they can make a beeline to talk to the person with a job. Having *short* mapping announcements is respectful of everyone's time: the interested and uninterested alike. The 8:30 is an agenda target. If and as we start having a published agenda, we can tweak the target, with the objective of meeting it. Tonight, there are two important agenda items prior to mapping/random access. They may run over but shouldn't. Let's see. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 09:42:02 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 00:42:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Mapping/Random Access at tonight's meeting In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060413175756.00be15a8@localhost> Message-ID: Dennis, [I think the mapping worked very well tonight. Awesome idea. It spawned a lot of conversations of interest to me. In particular we want to encourage newbies to introduce themselves and their interests] There's only one issue: 8:30pm is probably too early if you have 2+ separate speakers (as quite a few survey respondents have indicated)? Even if you start 7:30pm sharp? We had to cut JJ's excellent talk short. So should we push to 9pm in future? Stephen From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 20:00:00 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:00:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] slides from the talk Message-ID: Just a reminder, the slides from last night's talk are at: http://ironorchid.com/jjinux/articles/professional_software_engineering/ From DennisR at dair.com Fri Apr 14 20:01:03 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:01:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Mapping/Random Access at tonight's meeting In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060413175756.00be15a8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060414100912.00bf7070@localhost> At 12:42 AM 4/14/2006, you wrote: >Dennis, > >[I think the mapping worked very well tonight. Awesome idea. Thanks! (mapping = rapid-fire, brief self-intros with no discussion, allowing interested parties to seek you out in immediately following Random Access session) >we want to encourage newbies to introduce themselves and >their interests Several first time attendees picked up on what mapping was good for and *did* make announcements. I think seeing many people stand up, make their announcements, and sit down (thank you) was context allowing them to speak too. I prefer not to set aside a separate newbie introduction time. There is no previous template for newbie to follow and little time to prepare. You either get formulific intros (I am Greg from Foster City ... I am Sheila from Mountain view .... yeech) or meandering. The HomeBrew experience is that everybody very quickly spins up to the same level to figure out how to use mapping to make connections. >There's only one issue: 8:30pm is probably too early ... >So should we push to 9pm in future? Our schedule is 7:30-9:00. From our IronPort meeting, I saw that no one left during mapping but some left immediately at beginning of random access and several more stayed only a few minutes. People stayed for mapping and participated actively. I feel we should budget 10 minutes mapping at IronPort and 15 at Google with 5 minutes allowed for random access. This 5 minutes allows someone to make quick contact with 1 person and then still leave on time at 9:00. Thus, IronPort Random Access should start at 8:45 (vs. 8:30 last night) and Google start at 8:40. I am reluctant to push random access start to 9:00. That is extending the length of the meeting. IMO, the key to having better meetings is preparation and thoughtful pacing, not by making them longer. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 14 23:09:49 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:09:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Mapping/Random Access at tonight's meeting In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060414100912.00bf7070@localhost> Message-ID: Ok, I agree with 100% of that. In that case we simply need to time-check the speaker because we now have a hard cutoff at 8:30pm and we do not want to lose the often valuable Q&A opportunity at the end of a presentation. Re mapping and newbies, I meant "I think we should encourage anyone who wants to spend max 30sec introducing themselves and their interests, no matter what their level". mainly if they have something to answer e.g. "looking for help with SQL / Numeric Python / Agile Development..." PS As a result of the mapping I met some folks I have only emailed in the past and got several really useful ideas for possible activities. Details next month at Google... I will tentatively aim to present 15 survey result slides in 15 minutes, do the prize drawing in 5 min and then start a interactive discussion, all within a 30?-45min slot. Then we break to your ctypes presentation. Discussion can continue after mtg? Stephen From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Apr 15 04:49:00 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 19:49:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] let Message-ID: <20060415024902.D92C81E4005@bag.python.org> ------- On Thursday, April 13, 2006 jjinux at gmail.com wrote: > Hey everyone, > > If we want to start being formal about the 8:30 cutoff, I think it's > important to start at 7:30 sharp. If it's necessary to start at 7:45 > because of travel difficulties, that's fine, but then we should move > the 8:30 cutoff. :-/ I want to report that we did, in fact, start 10 minutes late. I don't know when JJ very politely cut himself off, but he only did about half his talk and I sure would like to hear the other half. It was very interesting and thought-provoking. Yes, the slides are online, but the face-to-face is better, especially because the audience pitched in with some great perspectives. I came home quite inspired by it. But JJ, had you started on time, those of us who were on time would have gotten more of your good talk. The late-comers would still have gotten their money's worth and they would not have been encouraged to come late next time. ... just mentioning it. I also want to report that the dinner was excellent too. And the Mapping/Random Access went great. It was fun to hear from so many of the group so fast. I thoroughly enjoyed the whole evening. Marilyn > > Happy Hacking! > -jj > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Apr 15 05:26:32 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 20:26:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos Message-ID: <20060415032634.964401E4005@bag.python.org> Hello again. Last night at dinner Mike Cheponis was telling us how much he likes Wing IDE. So I twisted his arm to show us a demo. And today he sent me: > Anyway, just let me know when you'd like me to show Wing IDE http://wingware.com/ > (and maybe I can even sneak in a demo of wxDesigner http://www.roebling.de/ ) > Best, > -Mike So the IDE show is up to 3 solid demos! Solid volunteers: > >> ActiveState -> ? > >> Komodo -> ? > >> Wing IDE -> ? Mike > >> jEdit -> Ilia? > >> Boa Constructor -> anyone? (Drew maybe?) > >> BlackAdder -> ? > >> PyDev(Eclipse) -> ? > >> SPE -> ? > >> PyDev -> ? > >> Eric3 -> ? > >> plain old IDLE -> ? > >> plain old emacs -> ? Marilyn > >> plain old vi (+ctags) -> Keith or Aahz? JJ & Keith > >> Jimmy you use Scite + enhancements don't you? If no one steps up to demo IDLE, I can do that one too. But it would be more fun to have another face doing it. Mike said he hesitated to volunteer for this because he is new to Python. So, other newbies, hear this. We need you. Please volunteer. It's a great way to get involved and the group will be kind to you, and even grateful. Marilyn From cappy2112 at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 06:54:55 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:54:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: <20060415032634.964401E4005@bag.python.org> References: <20060415032634.964401E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604142154x6a270f9fo9feb19b3d92a3997@mail.gmail.com> I will talk about PythonWin On 4/14/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > Hello again. > > Last night at dinner Mike Cheponis was telling us how much he likes Wing > IDE. So I twisted his arm to show us a demo. And today he sent me: > > > Anyway, just let me know when you'd like me to show Wing IDE > http://wingware.com/ > > (and maybe I can even sneak in a demo of wxDesigner > http://www.roebling.de/ ) > > Best, > > -Mike > > So the IDE show is up to 3 solid demos! > Solid volunteers: > > >> ActiveState -> ? > > >> Komodo -> ? > > >> Wing IDE -> ? Mike > > >> jEdit -> Ilia? > > >> Boa Constructor -> anyone? (Drew maybe?) > > >> BlackAdder -> ? > > >> PyDev(Eclipse) -> ? > > >> SPE -> ? > > >> PyDev -> ? > > >> Eric3 -> ? > > >> plain old IDLE -> ? > > >> plain old emacs -> ? Marilyn > > >> plain old vi (+ctags) -> Keith or Aahz? JJ & Keith > > >> Jimmy you use Scite + enhancements don't you? > > If no one steps up to demo IDLE, I can do that one too. But it would be > more fun to have another face doing it. > > Mike said he hesitated to volunteer for this because he is new to Python. > So, other newbies, hear this. We need you. Please volunteer. It's a great > way to get involved and the group will be kind to you, and even grateful. > > Marilyn > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060414/25af3445/attachment.htm From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sat Apr 15 10:05:10 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 01:05:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos Message-ID: - Marilyn, Are you targeting the IDE demos for Ironport June 8 meeting? >From: Marilyn Davis + Tony C >So the IDE show is up to 3->4 solid demos! plain old emacs -> Marilyn, plain old vi (+ctags) -> JJ & Keith Wing IDE -> Mike C, PythonWin -> TonyC - As a sneak peek at the survey so far, to help you identify the popular IDEs, below are the results based on 37 responses: - interest in the IDE topic scored broadly enough: "Very interested" 2.69/4.0 with Basic users, 2.68 with Advanced, "Interested" 2.40 with Experts. - ~50% of people use common text editors (emacs, vim etc.) - 17% are in search of an IDE (me included) - volunteers needed to deomnstrate IDLE and PyDev, they're popular! - IDLE, PyDev, SPE are more popular with people rating their Python proficiency as Basic. - I guess people's preferences depend on criteria like how important cross-platform portability is, whether you need other language support, whether you do GUIs and which one, revision control (... a feature matrix would be neat). Q #11. (Optional) What is your preferred IDE? Response Percent Response Total emacs 31.4% 11 vi/vim/gvim (+ ctags) 14.3% 5 Haven't found a preferred one yet 17.1% IDLE 11.4% 4 PyDev (Eclipse) 11.4% 4 Wing IDE 11.4% 4 SPE 5.7% 2 Blackadder 2.9% 1 Komodo 2.9% 1 Scite 2.9% 1 ActivateState 0% 0 Boa Constructor 0% 0 JEdit 0% 0 Other (please list below) 20% 7 - Mac OS X TextMate - Mac OSX: Textmate / Windows: Notepad++ - Gedit - combination of kedit, kdevelop with ipython - I switch (often on the fly) between scite and vim. I've used SPE a little bit but I mostly only use it as a wrapper around winpdb. I think I could like SPE for editing. I tend to use XRCed for GUI design, I find Boa Constructor's GUI designer a little primitive (not that XRCed is that much better). - PyWin32 - ipython - I don't use an IDE. It is not a matter of not having found one. - I tend to use ultra edit but am experimenting with PyDev per a friends suggestions. - text editor + terminal From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 10:08:09 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 01:08:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] let In-Reply-To: <20060415024902.D92C81E4005@bag.python.org> References: <20060415024902.D92C81E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: On 4/14/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > ------- On Thursday, April 13, 2006 jjinux at gmail.com wrote: > > > Hey everyone, > > > > If we want to start being formal about the 8:30 cutoff, I think it's > > important to start at 7:30 sharp. If it's necessary to start at 7:45 > > because of travel difficulties, that's fine, but then we should move > > the 8:30 cutoff. :-/ > > I want to report that we did, in fact, start 10 minutes late. I don't know when JJ very politely cut himself off, but he only did about half his talk and I sure would like to hear the other half. It was very interesting and thought-provoking. Yes, the slides are online, but the face-to-face is better, especially because the audience pitched in with some great perspectives. I came home quite inspired by it. > > But JJ, had you started on time, those of us who were on time would have gotten more of your good talk. The late-comers would still have gotten their money's worth and they would not have been encouraged to come late next time. ... just mentioning it. > > I also want to report that the dinner was excellent too. > > And the Mapping/Random Access went great. It was fun to hear from so many of the group so fast. > > I thoroughly enjoyed the whole evening. Marilyn, You actually didn't miss out on anything. I started exactly 10 minutes late to compensate for the fact that people are usually very late, and they probably weren't prepared for me to start on time per my email. However, I also extended the talk by 10 minutes. That is, my talk was an hour long, almost to the minute thanks to Dennis' help, who I asked to track the time. I too greatly enjoyed the talk because of the unique perspectives from others in the room. I'd love to finish the other half of the slides, but I fear that we have so many good talks coming up, it's probably time for me to give up the podium. Best Regards, -jj From DennisR at dair.com Sat Apr 15 06:01:20 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:01:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: <20060415032634.964401E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> At 08:26 PM 4/14/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >So the IDE show is up to 3 solid demos! Excellent! As far as I know, the June meeting and later are open. When could we plan on this being brought together? Do you consider yourself the meeting organizer? As a group, we can start to think through what publicity mechanisms we want need/have in place for this meeting. In the past, I have seen postings in the ALT newsgroup but I have not subscribed for a long time and don't know if anyone is still doing that. Do any of our meetings show up in Daily Python? Should they? In terms of publicity, is our objective to get one-time meeting attendance or to get subscribers to the mailing list ... who then attend the meetings? I am quite in the dark who is doing publicity and the scope of what is being done. Is this a capability we need to build out or is anyone doing this on a continuing basis? ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Apr 15 19:25:01 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:25:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Publicity? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> References: <20060415032634.964401E4005@bag.python.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> Message-ID: <20060415172500.GA24281@panix.com> On Fri, Apr 14, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > I am quite in the dark who is doing publicity and the scope of what is > being done. Is this a capability we need to build out or is anyone doing > this on a continuing basis? Publicity? What's that? ;-) Seriously, what do we need it for? The group seems to be overall growing (at least the mailing list is, not sure about meetings). I don't think growth per se should be one of our goals, just making sure that people who want to find us can. Doing a Google on "san francisco python" turns up BayPIGgies as the first link. Announcements of meetings go to c.l.py and c.l.py.announce in addition to the BayPIGgies list. Before anyone puts much effort into publicity, I'd like to see more evidence that we need publicity. Note that if someone wants to charge ahead on the publicity front because that's what gives zir a buzz, I'm not going to stop it (unless the publicity is being handled in a way that I think is detrimental to BayPIGgies). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Apr 15 19:29:06 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:29:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] What's In A Name In-Reply-To: References: <20060412135018.GA13449@panix.com> Message-ID: <20060415172906.GB24281@panix.com> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006, Rich Morin wrote: > At 3:21 PM -0700 4/13/06, Ross Parlette wrote: >> >> I personally think "Bay Area Python Interest Group" (Baypiggies) is >> completely appropriate. If you wish to leave out the parenthized >> name, so be it. A search for the string (with or without quotes) >> brings us up first on Google (as it SHOULD!). > > Fine with me. However, the web page doesn't mention this name. > Instead, it says: > > We are the Silicon Valley-San Francisco Bay Area Python Users Group. > > Is a small edit in order? (ducks) Fixed. Thanks! (The page title was correct, but that bit was missed.) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From DennisR at dair.com Sat Apr 15 19:53:25 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:53:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Publicity? In-Reply-To: <20060415172500.GA24281@panix.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> <20060415032634.964401E4005@bag.python.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060415103332.00bf1b40@localhost> At 10:25 AM 4/15/2006, Aahz wrote: >Publicity? What's that? ;-) Publicity is what some other groups do at our meetings ;-) >I don't think >growth per se should be one of our goals, just making sure that people >who want to find us can. Stating a non-goal is not useful when the goals themselves are not articulated. So .... Goals ----- 1) Serve as a learning and information exchange forum 2) Promote the local (an global) Python economy Publicity promotes goal 1 by getting our existence better known. Publicity serves goal 2 by perhaps reaching synergistic constituencies (hiring managers, company technical leads, startup infrastructure, ...) >Announcements of meetings go to c.l.py and c.l.py.announce in >addition to the BayPIGgies list. Well, it is a start >Before anyone puts much effort into publicity, I'd like to see more >evidence that we need publicity. Publicity is a means to achieving certain goals. We need to come to some understanding of goals. I can state my goals (see above) and publicity fits into them. >... I'm not going to stop it (unless the >publicity is being handled in a way that I think is detrimental to >BayPIGgies). Fair enough. "Detrimental to BayPIGgies" is clearly NOT a goal. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From jjinux at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 00:41:52 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:41:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] nicer Web site design Message-ID: I personally don't think it's very important that baypiggies have a nice looking Web site. However, if this is something that others care about, I have a designer buddy who has always made me very happy anytime I ask him to do some design. He works for the Sharper Image these days. Is this something that you guys care about? More importantly, if this is something you care about, would you be willing to donate $25. I expect $200-$300 would be enough. I'm quite happy to let this subject drop, but if about 8 other people are interested, we could make the site more attractive. Best Regards, -jj From jjinux at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 00:45:14 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:45:14 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> References: <20060415032634.964401E4005@bag.python.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> Message-ID: If I announced the meetings in my blog, they'd show up on Python Planet :-/ I don't want to volunteer to do so unless we feel that it's important and needed. Afterall, we already have the python-announce mailing list. -jj On 4/14/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 08:26 PM 4/14/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > >So the IDE show is up to 3 solid demos! > > Excellent! As far as I know, the June meeting and later are open. When > could we plan on this being brought together? Do you consider yourself the > meeting organizer? > > As a group, we can start to think through what publicity mechanisms we want > need/have in place for this meeting. In the past, I have seen postings in > the ALT newsgroup but I have not subscribed for a long time and don't know > if anyone is still doing that. Do any of our meetings show up in Daily > Python? Should they? > > In terms of publicity, is our objective to get one-time meeting attendance > or to get subscribers to the mailing list ... who then attend the meetings? > > I am quite in the dark who is doing publicity and the scope of what is > being done. Is this a capability we need to build out or is anyone doing > this on a continuing basis? From jjinux at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 00:54:36 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:54:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know that it's possibly short notice, but Jacob Kaplan-Moss, one of the lead developers of Django, is going to be in town around the 27th. I'd like to propose a not-regularly-scheduled BayPiggies meeting for Thursday the 27th at IronPort to allow Jacob to give a talk on Django. Wesley and Aahz, is that acceptable? Best Regards, -jj On 4/15/06, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote: > Hey Shannon -- > > Thanks for the note about the wrong date; I don't know why I'm > somehow incapable of getting the date right :) > > I'd be thrilled to do a talk for BayPiggies if you want to set it up; > Tuesday or Wednesday night would work best for me, but let me know > what you had in mind... From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Apr 16 01:51:23 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:51:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060415235123.GB29955@panix.com> On Sat, Apr 15, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > I know that it's possibly short notice, but Jacob Kaplan-Moss, one of > the lead developers of Django, is going to be in town around the 27th. > I'd like to propose a not-regularly-scheduled BayPiggies meeting for > Thursday the 27th at IronPort to allow Jacob to give a talk on Django. > Wesley and Aahz, is that acceptable? It's not up to me. As long as someone else is setting up the meeting and providing a space, I'll make sure the announcement goes out. Given how tight the timing is, I suggest you just go ahead and triple-confirm, then Make It So. If special meetings become regular occurrences, I may express concern about splitting the energy of the group, but I think having one of the primary Django developers certainly counts as a good reason! (Unfortunately, I already have other plans for the 27th, so it's unlikely that I'll make it, but I don't expect the world to revolve around me. ;-) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sun Apr 16 01:52:02 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:52:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Publicity? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060415103332.00bf1b40@localhost> Message-ID: Maybe it helps to clarify, I think most people are talking about mainly b) not a) below: a) Publicizing the group, in general - I agree this is already fairly well-covered. (Website could add more content, links etc., add calendaring format etc. There is no "community space" for individual people currently, also there are no links to local Pythonic companies, or other related groups, or other PyUGs in the US) b) Publicizing the individual meetings (i.e. topic-speaker-level-date-location-agenda) - gotta do this in a timely way. I see no reason the agenda cannot be set in stone 2wks before meeting. We should set a target and consistently hit it. - cross-announcing to relevant groups (which groups are relevant varies greatly depending on what the topic and level is) - currently this is suffering due to there being no process (e.g. one Program Manager?) to propose, decide on and formalize the agenda (viz.: last week's 3 agendas on website, which bore little resemblance to the consensus on the list). Whether we want to go so far as having elected annual officer positions, opinions differ - I came to last week's meeting largely to feel the group's pulse on these issues. The general consensus seems to be as long as we have some sort of a process that gets results, noone is too picky. - hiring a webmaster etc. are all secondary to solving or defining some sort of process. Let's table those. My suggestions on our (unstated) goals: >Goals >----- >1) Serve as a learning and information exchange forum I would add 'and networking' >2) Promote the local (an global) Python economy 'economy' may be a loaded word, I would say "user and developer community" and add: 3) Promote learning and proliferation of Python Over to all you 328 other people? Do you want to resolve this at May meeting for 60min? Or prefer Dennis's ctypes? Stephen From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Apr 16 01:56:20 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:56:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] nicer Web site design In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060415235620.GC29955@panix.com> On Sat, Apr 15, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > I personally don't think it's very important that baypiggies have a > nice looking Web site. However, if this is something that others care > about, I have a designer buddy who has always made me very happy > anytime I ask him to do some design. He works for the Sharper Image > these days. Is this something that you guys care about? More > importantly, if this is something you care about, would you be willing > to donate $25. I expect $200-$300 would be enough. I'm quite happy > to let this subject drop, but if about 8 other people are interested, > we could make the site more attractive. Before we spend time/money on this, I think we first need to define what's unattractive about the current site. Waving one's hands at a web designer and saying "just make it better" tends to produce poor results. In addition, I think we also have some home-grown talent in that area, and before we go outside the group, we should give an opportunity for anyone who wants to volunteer to provide a mockup design for group review. If someone does a really bang-up job, we can give them the egoboo of sticking their name on the site. ;-) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Apr 16 01:59:51 2006 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: <20060415235123.GB29955@panix.com> References: <20060415235123.GB29955@panix.com> Message-ID: Wow, so Jacob Kaplan-Moss going to miss Depeche Mode at Shoreline on the 27th? Is he going to Startup School at Stanford on the 29th (with Paul Graham)? Would be better if the talk could be on the 26th in the South Bay ... at least for me(!). >> I know that it's possibly short notice, but Jacob Kaplan-Moss, one of >> the lead developers of Django, is going to be in town around the 27th. -Mike From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Sun Apr 16 00:29:37 2006 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:29:37 -0600 Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is the future suggestion I entered in the survey. Seems it come true right away! So if you haven't already filled the survey make sure you do it at your earliest convenience :) > I know that it's possibly short notice, but Jacob Kaplan-Moss, one of > the lead developers of Django, is going to be in town around the 27th. > I'd like to propose a not-regularly-scheduled BayPiggies meeting for > Thursday the 27th at IronPort to allow Jacob to give a talk on Django. > Wesley and Aahz, is that acceptable? > > Best Regards, > -jj > > On 4/15/06, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote: >> Hey Shannon -- >> >> Thanks for the note about the wrong date; I don't know why I'm >> somehow incapable of getting the date right :) >> >> I'd be thrilled to do a talk for BayPiggies if you want to set it up; >> Tuesday or Wednesday night would work best for me, but let me know >> what you had in mind... > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From donnamsnow at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 05:05:38 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 20:05:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] nicer Web site design In-Reply-To: <20060415235620.GC29955@panix.com> References: <20060415235620.GC29955@panix.com> Message-ID: Hi, I'd be willing to take a stab at redesign if there is enough interest. Some sites I've built (using Plone) http://www.esginc.com http://www.tfpllc.com http://www.pariveda.com http://www.mosaicofficefurniture.com I could use the exposure and it wouldn't cost the group anything (it'd be my way of volunteering for this group since I'm new to Python programming and can't really contribute as an expert in any way..). It would have to be pretty simple (I don't think the current design is bad.. maybe just some oomph) to bring it up to speed. Or since Plone is a Python based application we install it and style that .. it includes membership capabilities and loads of modules. Either way, I'm willing to come up with a look & feel for the site that is standards compliant. btw.. I dont have a biz site at the moment..I'm moving zope & php servers into HE and reinstalling software... taking a bit of a hiatus (though I'm still busy with clients) but should have biz site back online by next weekend. Donna M. Snow C Squared Technologies On 4/15/06, Aahz wrote: > On Sat, Apr 15, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > > > I personally don't think it's very important that baypiggies have a > > nice looking Web site. However, if this is something that others care > > about, I have a designer buddy who has always made me very happy > > anytime I ask him to do some design. He works for the Sharper Image > > these days. Is this something that you guys care about? More > > importantly, if this is something you care about, would you be willing > > to donate $25. I expect $200-$300 would be enough. I'm quite happy > > to let this subject drop, but if about 8 other people are interested, > > we could make the site more attractive. > > Before we spend time/money on this, I think we first need to define > what's unattractive about the current site. Waving one's hands at a web > designer and saying "just make it better" tends to produce poor results. > In addition, I think we also have some home-grown talent in that area, > and before we go outside the group, we should give an opportunity for > anyone who wants to volunteer to provide a mockup design for group > review. > > If someone does a really bang-up job, we can give them the egoboo of > sticking their name on the site. ;-) > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From rbradley at projectway.com Sun Apr 16 05:04:20 2006 From: rbradley at projectway.com (Rand Bradley) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 20:04:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a3f04f50604152004l7d58a2b9h441d2fa93997e33e@mail.gmail.com> It is a great idea to have Jacob speak at BayPiggies when he is in town. I saw him speak at PyCon and he is excellent! On 4/15/06, Tung Wai Yip wrote: > > This is the future suggestion I entered in the survey. Seems it come true > right away! So if you haven't already filled the survey make sure you do > it at your earliest convenience :) > > > > I know that it's possibly short notice, but Jacob Kaplan-Moss, one of > > the lead developers of Django, is going to be in town around the 27th. > > I'd like to propose a not-regularly-scheduled BayPiggies meeting for > > Thursday the 27th at IronPort to allow Jacob to give a talk on Django. > > Wesley and Aahz, is that acceptable? > > > > Best Regards, > > -jj > > > > On 4/15/06, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote: > >> Hey Shannon -- > >> > >> Thanks for the note about the wrong date; I don't know why I'm > >> somehow incapable of getting the date right :) > >> > >> I'd be thrilled to do a talk for BayPiggies if you want to set it up; > >> Tuesday or Wednesday night would work best for me, but let me know > >> what you had in mind... > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Kind Regards, Rand Bradley PROJECTWAY, LLC Phone: (415) 430-5535 Email: rbradley at projectway.com http://www.projectway.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060415/f0cb86e2/attachment.html From marilyn at deliberate.com Sun Apr 16 08:20:25 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Apr 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 08:26 PM 4/14/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > >So the IDE show is up to 3 solid demos! > > Excellent! As far as I know, the June meeting and later are open. When > could we plan on this being brought together? Do you consider yourself the > meeting organizer? I can motivate collaborate with the other presenters to work out how we will handle it. I can start the meeting on time. Late people will miss my emacs demo. I won't be hurt or insulted or even hardly notice if you are late. Do you want me to lead the random access part too? How much time do we get? Is there anything else that needs doing? We have: > > Solid volunteers: PythonWin Tony C > > > >> ActiveState -> ? > > > >> Komodo -> ? > > > >> Wing IDE -> ? Mike > > > >> jEdit -> Ilia? > > > >> Boa Constructor -> anyone? (Drew maybe?) > > > >> BlackAdder -> ? > > > >> PyDev(Eclipse) -> ? > > > >> SPE -> ? > > > >> PyDev -> ? > > > >> Eric3 -> ? > > > >> plain old IDLE -> ? (Marilyn) > > > >> plain old emacs -> ? Marilyn > > > >> plain old vi (+ctags) -> Keith or Aahz? JJ & Keith > > > >> Jimmy you use Scite + enhancements don't you? > > Looking good. I'm hoping for July at Google. Is this possible? Marilyn > > As a group, we can start to think through what publicity mechanisms we want > need/have in place for this meeting. In the past, I have seen postings in > the ALT newsgroup but I have not subscribed for a long time and don't know > if anyone is still doing that. Do any of our meetings show up in Daily > Python? Should they? > > In terms of publicity, is our objective to get one-time meeting attendance > or to get subscribers to the mailing list ... who then attend the meetings? > > I am quite in the dark who is doing publicity and the scope of what is > being done. Is this a capability we need to build out or is anyone doing > this on a continuing basis? > ---------------------------------- > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From wescpy at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 12:23:46 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 03:23:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] nicer Web site design In-Reply-To: References: <20060415235620.GC29955@panix.com> Message-ID: <78b3a9580604160323w64c6f5fdt487adb18025238e7@mail.gmail.com> i think donna should give a talk on Plone and do a live website with it to show how "easy" it is to do something like this. in fact, it would be interesting to see a live creation of a sample BayPIGgies website. whether it will become the real thing is something for the group to decide, but in either case, i believe that such a talk is worthwhile. -wesley On 4/15/06, Donna Snow wrote: > Hi, > > I'd be willing to take a stab at redesign if there is enough interest. > > Some sites I've built (using Plone) > > http://www.esginc.com > http://www.tfpllc.com > http://www.pariveda.com > http://www.mosaicofficefurniture.com > > I could use the exposure and it wouldn't cost the group anything (it'd > be my way of volunteering for this group since I'm new to Python > programming and can't really contribute as an expert in any way..). > > It would have to be pretty simple (I don't think the current design is > bad.. maybe just some oomph) to bring it up to speed. > > Or since Plone is a Python based application we install it and style > that .. it includes membership capabilities and loads of modules. > > Either way, I'm willing to come up with a look & feel for the site > that is standards compliant. > > btw.. I dont have a biz site at the moment..I'm moving zope & php > servers into HE and reinstalling software... taking a bit of a hiatus > (though I'm still busy with clients) but should have biz site back > online by next weekend. > > Donna M. Snow > C Squared Technologies > > > On 4/15/06, Aahz wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > > > > > I personally don't think it's very important that baypiggies have a > > > nice looking Web site. However, if this is something that others care > > > about, I have a designer buddy who has always made me very happy > > > anytime I ask him to do some design. He works for the Sharper Image > > > these days. Is this something that you guys care about? More > > > importantly, if this is something you care about, would you be willing > > > to donate $25. I expect $200-$300 would be enough. I'm quite happy > > > to let this subject drop, but if about 8 other people are interested, > > > we could make the site more attractive. > > > > Before we spend time/money on this, I think we first need to define > > what's unattractive about the current site. Waving one's hands at a web > > designer and saying "just make it better" tends to produce poor results. > > In addition, I think we also have some home-grown talent in that area, > > and before we go outside the group, we should give an opportunity for > > anyone who wants to volunteer to provide a mockup design for group > > review. > > > > If someone does a really bang-up job, we can give them the egoboo of > > sticking their name on the site. ;-) > > -- > > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > > > "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Apr 16 17:32:46 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 08:32:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] nicer Web site design In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580604160323w64c6f5fdt487adb18025238e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060415235620.GC29955@panix.com> <78b3a9580604160323w64c6f5fdt487adb18025238e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060416153246.GA22242@panix.com> On Sun, Apr 16, 2006, w chun wrote: > > i think donna should give a talk on Plone and do a live website with > it to show how "easy" it is to do something like this. in fact, it > would be interesting to see a live creation of a sample BayPIGgies > website. whether it will become the real thing is something for the > group to decide, but in either case, i believe that such a talk is > worthwhile. +1 -- Donna, you up for that? Dennis already has May for his talk on ctypes, but I think the IDE talk can easily be moved to July if people want a Plone talk for June. I think having the Plone talk would be especially good following the Django talk if that happens. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From baypiggies at danimal.org Sun Apr 16 17:51:20 2006 From: baypiggies at danimal.org (Dan Weeks) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 08:51:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] nicer Web site design In-Reply-To: <20060416153246.GA22242@panix.com> References: <20060415235620.GC29955@panix.com> <78b3a9580604160323w64c6f5fdt487adb18025238e7@mail.gmail.com> <20060416153246.GA22242@panix.com> Message-ID: <20060416155120.GC74410@danimal.org> On 2006-04-16 08:32:46 -0700, Aahz wrote: > Dennis already has May for his talk on ctypes, but I think the IDE talk > can easily be moved to July if people want a Plone talk for June. I > think having the Plone talk would be especially good following the Django > talk if that happens. Great, then we'll have to have a TurboGears talk too. :) From DennisR at dair.com Sun Apr 16 19:33:44 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 10:33:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416091603.00bfc000@localhost> >Do you want me to lead the random access part too? I would like to hang on to conducting mapping/random access or at least make it a distinct duty. In this way, there is continuity in the expectations we have for this segment ... and a contact for inevitable improvement suggestions. >I can motivate collaborate with the other presenters to work out how >we will handle it. Good. I makes sense to me that you be the technical moderator for this event. >I can start the meeting on time. It gets better and better :-). >How much time do we get? That is an IronPort night, so the prototype schedule would be 7:30 - 8:45 Event Program 8:45 - 9:00 Mapping/Random Access You would get 75 minutes. >I'm hoping for July at Google. Is this possible? Hmmm... I missed this before. My other comments were based on June at IronPort. As far as I know June and July are both open at this point. Do you still want July at Google? Let's nail the date down. >Is there anything else that needs doing? Yes. This is an incomplete list based on what I know/can guess 1) You may need to arrange physical setup and especially audio-visual with speakers and JJ. 2) I think we could benefit from an improved publicity process. Look at the existing http://baypiggies.net web page. Here is what is posted: Thursday, April 13, 2006 Agenda: Book review and newbie questions Location: IronPort Level: all Speaker(s): JJ (Shannon Behrens) About the talk JJ will review "Professional Software Development" with discussion and newbiew questions afterward. This description needs to answer the question "Why would I want to drive or travel xx miles on a (rainy) night to attend this?". It also needs to answer other questions but unless the "why" question is answered the other questions are irrelevant. In the IEEE Computer Society (pre-WWW), we had a paragraph on the speaker and a paragraph on the talk itself. In Dennis Allison's excellent http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ seminar series, speaker names, affiliations, and talk titles are listed in a clickable format linking to a speaker-provided description. I suggest we move to the Stanford Model. As a meeting organizer, I would ask that you pull together a one-page summary using the Stanford seminar clickable links for each talk as a model. I think the URL should be frozen with at least initial content ideally 2 weeks prior and certainly 1 week prior to the meeting. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From DennisR at dair.com Sun Apr 16 21:10:32 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 12:10:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416115508.00bf4008@localhost> I have tried to capture info about upcoming events. I volunteer to maintain this so that we have a reference of who is doing what and who to contact. Here is my draft listing: Date April 27, 2006 Location IronPort Working Topic Title Django (Jacob Kaplan-Moss) Topic Organizer JJ Topic URL Mapping/Random Access special meeting/none Refreshments Dinner TBD Site Contact JJ Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date May 11, 2006 Location Google Working Topic Title Survey Results/Ctypes Topic Organizer Stephen Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Dinner Brian Site Contact Neil Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date June or July Location TBD Working Topic Title IDE Comparison Topic Organizer Marilyn Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Dinner Brian Site Contact TBD Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz Looking at this, it looks like there is an immediate hole in our special Django meeting at IronPort. We have an out of town guest and it is not clear what the refreshments/dinner arrangements are. This list is my *understanding* of what things people do. Additions/deletions? We currently do not have topic URLs. If organizers find it useful, I am happy to link in this listing to URLs describing the talks for the meeting. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Apr 16 21:41:07 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 12:41:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (Apr) + (May) Survey results, draw + ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060409215311.00bf9948@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060409215311.00bf9948@localhost> Message-ID: <20060416194107.GB539@panix.com> On Sun, Apr 09, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > I would be happy to share the presentation time with you. I have coded a > native Windows program in Python with ctypes > (http://dialogdevil.com/). The app communicates directly with about 100 > different APIs spread over 5 DLL's so there should be sufficient material > for 45 minutes. Please provide a formal summary for posting to the website. Please specify an URL for your name (if you want it). See the 6/2005 agenda for the most recent "good" example. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From weo2004 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 16 22:05:04 2006 From: weo2004 at yahoo.com (Bill Overstreet) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Special meeting dates very much appreciated Message-ID: <20060416200504.32334.qmail@web60722.mail.yahoo.com> I have been following this email list for many months but have been unable to attend the 2nd Tuesday meetings due to conflicts with SDForum events (Emerging Technology SIG used to meet 2nd Tuesday and now Search SIG meets 2nd Tuesday -- both of which are very good) So the April 27 meeting at IronPort regarding Django will be my first Baypiggies meeting. I live near Lawrence Expy and 101 in Sunnyvale if anyone would like to carpool with me. Bill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060416/891b36ef/attachment.html From DennisR at dair.com Sun Apr 16 22:49:44 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:49:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] May Talk (was (Apr) + (May) ...) In-Reply-To: <20060416194107.GB539@panix.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060409215311.00bf9948@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060409215311.00bf9948@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416132642.00bf3728@localhost> >See the 6/2005 agenda for >the most recent "good" example. Found it. Yes, a good agenda and a great talk. I am only part of the program so I have supplied my material. My summary is shorter than Drew's because, well, my talk is much shorter. Stephen needs to supply his part. Location: Google Date: May 11 Agenda: ------- 7:30 - 7:50 Topic: CTypes Usage Examples: Direct Windows API (permanent presentations web page: http://www.spamai.com/present/ ... the Ctypes material is not yet posted but this is where it will appear when it is) Speaker: Dennis Reinhardt DAIR Computer Systems (speaker web page http://dair.com) Level: advanced/specialist About: CTypes is an add-on package to be integrated into Python 2.5 release. CTypes provides a light-weight mapping from Python directly to system DLLs, illustrated in this talk by the Windows API. Difficulties encountered in implementation will be mentioned. 7:50 - 8:40 [Stephen to supply] 8:40 - 9:00 Event: Mapping/Random Access Moderator: Dennis Reinhardt Level: open to and accessible by all About: This allows establishment of and follow up on mutual interest(s). Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics the announcer is interested in. Random Access follows immediately to allow everyone to follow up individually on topics announced in which they also have an interest. This is modeled on the format of the legendary Homebrew Computer Club. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Apr 17 01:50:20 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:50:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Special meeting dates very much appreciated In-Reply-To: <20060416200504.32334.qmail@web60722.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060416200504.32334.qmail@web60722.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060416235020.GB16059@panix.com> On Sun, Apr 16, 2006, Bill Overstreet wrote: > > I have been following this email list for many months but have been > unable to attend the 2nd Tuesday meetings due to conflicts with > SDForum events (Emerging Technology SIG used to meet 2nd Tuesday and > now Search SIG meets 2nd Tuesday -- both of which are very good) Um.... BayPIGgies meets on Thursdays.... -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From nnorwitz at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 01:51:02 2006 From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:51:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Special meeting dates very much appreciated In-Reply-To: <20060416200504.32334.qmail@web60722.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060416200504.32334.qmail@web60722.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 4/16/06, Bill Overstreet wrote: > > So the April 27 meeting at IronPort regarding Django will be my first > Baypiggies meeting. > > I live near Lawrence Expy and 101 in Sunnyvale if anyone would like to > carpool with me. I've seen a couple of people say that Mt. View may be more convenient than IronPort. I'm happy to get a room at Google if that's preferred, just let me know. It wasn't clear to me if IronPort was definite or just proposed. n From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 17 02:29:20 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 17:29:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Special meeting dates very much appreciated In-Reply-To: References: <20060416200504.32334.qmail@web60722.mail.yahoo.com> <20060416200504.32334.qmail@web60722.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416171712.00be9390@localhost> At 04:51 PM 4/16/2006, Neal Norwitz wrote: >I've seen a couple of people say that Mt. View may be more convenient >than IronPort. I'm happy to get a room at Google if that's preferred, >just let me know. It wasn't clear to me if IronPort was definite or >just proposed. It is JJ's meeting and I believe his call where it is being held. I would treat his proposal as definite unless he indicates differently. Convenience aside (an eyes of the beholder type of thing), I can suggest a reason why JJ might want to consider holding this at Google: meeting at Google frees JJ up to meet with the speaker at a possible dinner before the meeting. Coordinating activities at the site is w-o-r-k and often rules out attending a pre-meeting dinner with the speaker. There is no dinner planned yet but we have an out-of-town speaker here and 11 days .... ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Apr 17 02:51:58 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 17:51:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416091603.00bfc000@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060416091603.00bfc000@localhost> Message-ID: <20060417005158.GA2267@panix.com> On Sun, Apr 16, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > In the IEEE Computer Society (pre-WWW), we had a paragraph on the speaker > and a paragraph on the talk itself. In Dennis Allison's excellent > http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ seminar series, speaker names, > affiliations, and talk titles are listed in a clickable format linking to a > speaker-provided description. I suggest we move to the Stanford Model. > > As a meeting organizer, I would ask that you pull together a one-page > summary using the Stanford seminar clickable links for each talk as a > model. I think the URL should be frozen with at least initial content > ideally 2 weeks prior and certainly 1 week prior to the meeting. Keep in mind (as the history makes clear) that we certainly have done this. While this is a good goal, I think it is more important to have a good meeting pulled together at the last minute than it is to adhere to policy in setting up meetings. (Yes, I do recognize that in many ways having policy leads to better meetings. Nevertheless, my point stands: this is a volunteer group, and as long as the mailing list exists to pull things together, I don't think there should be an excessive emphasis on process, because there is a tendency to beat on people when process isn't followed.) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 17 03:35:02 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 18:35:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: <20060417005158.GA2267@panix.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416091603.00bfc000@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060416091603.00bfc000@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416182522.00bf6110@localhost> At 05:51 PM 4/16/2006, Aahz wrote: >[snip] Nevertheless, my point stands: [snip] I think the remarks pertain to me so I am explicitly agreeing with you. Some lists prefer "me too" and "I agree" posts be implicit. Others would ask that private replies be used. A pointer to an etiquette FAQ for this list or statement of practice appreciated if I should not reply to entire list. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 17 04:35:25 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:35:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos Message-ID: <20060417023529.961ED1E4007@bag.python.org> ----- On Sunday, April 16, 2006 DennisR at dair.com wrote: >>Do you want me to lead the random access part too? > > I would like to hang on to conducting mapping/random access or at least > make it a distinct duty. In this way, there is continuity in the > expectations we have for this segment ... and a contact for inevitable > improvement suggestions. Good idea. > >>I can motivate collaborate with the other presenters to work out how >>we will handle it. > > Good. I makes sense to me that you be the technical moderator for this event. Okie dokie. > >>I can start the meeting on time. > > It gets better and better :-). > >>How much time do we get? > > That is an IronPort night, so the prototype schedule would be > > 7:30 - 8:45 Event Program > 8:45 - 9:00 Mapping/Random Access > > You would get 75 minutes. *We* get 75 minutes. > >>I'm hoping for July at Google. Is this possible? > > Hmmm... I missed this before. My other comments were based on June at > IronPort. As far as I know June and July are both open at this point. Do > you still want July at Google? Let's nail the date down. July, Google, if no one objects. The acoustics are not good at Ironport and it really matters to people who have a hearing disability. I have only one working ear and the extra noise makes it difficult for me. Since I will be responding to the audience, if I am having difficulty, the audience will be having difficulty too. Let's avoid that embarrassment and frustration. > >>Is there anything else that needs doing? > > Yes. This is an incomplete list based on what I know/can guess > > 1) You may need to arrange physical setup and especially audio-visual with > speakers and JJ. How does it happen at Google? Do I need to help there? > 2) I think we could benefit from an improved publicity process. Look at > the existing http://baypiggies.net web page. Here is what is posted: > > Thursday, April 13, 2006 > Agenda: Book review and newbie questions > Location: IronPort > Level: all > Speaker(s): JJ (Shannon Behrens) > About the talk > JJ will review "Professional Software Development" > with discussion and newbiew questions afterward. > > This description needs to answer the question "Why would I want to drive or > travel xx miles on a (rainy) night to attend this?". It also needs to > answer other questions but unless the "why" question is answered the other > questions are irrelevant. > > In the IEEE Computer Society (pre-WWW), we had a paragraph on the speaker > and a paragraph on the talk itself. In Dennis Allison's excellent > http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ seminar series, speaker names, > affiliations, and talk titles are listed in a clickable format linking to a > speaker-provided description. I suggest we move to the Stanford Model. I suggest we follow your suggestion. What I don't understand is, who is doing the web page? I hope (we all hope) that I am not. If each demonstrator provides a paragraph of text about herself, or himself, and a paragraph of text about the IDE, will that suffice? Maybe Donna would like to use our material to make a web page and show her stuff? > > As a meeting organizer, I would ask that you pull together a one-page > summary using the Stanford seminar clickable links for each talk as a > model. I think the URL should be frozen with at least initial content > ideally 2 weeks prior and certainly 1 week prior to the meeting. If we get the July date, we have plenty of time to get it right. Thank you so much for coming forward with suggestions and organization Dennis. Marilyn > > > > ---------------------------------- > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Apr 17 05:27:43 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 20:27:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416182522.00bf6110@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416091603.00bfc000@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060414204833.00bf7d58@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060416091603.00bfc000@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060416182522.00bf6110@localhost> Message-ID: <20060417032743.GA25577@panix.com> On Sun, Apr 16, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 05:51 PM 4/16/2006, Aahz wrote: >> >>[snip] Nevertheless, my point stands: [snip] > > I think the remarks pertain to me so I am explicitly agreeing with you. > > Some lists prefer "me too" and "I agree" posts be implicit. Others > would ask that private replies be used. A pointer to an etiquette FAQ > for this list or statement of practice appreciated if I should not > reply to entire list. Heh. There isn't one. In general, I prefer to keep a VERY light hand on restricting posts; I've only turned the squelch knob higher lately because we were IMO getting too close to the "more heat than light" stage. Had this been a social list rather than one with an expectation of professional demeanor, I probably would have let it ride. For the most part, I let people's common sense determine what gets posted and don't get too exercised when someone else's sense is different from mine. Honestly, if I did create a netiquette FAQ for this list, the very first item would be NO TOP-POSTING. ;-) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet? From donnamsnow at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 05:53:31 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 20:53:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] nicer Web site design In-Reply-To: References: <20060415235620.GC29955@panix.com> <78b3a9580604160323w64c6f5fdt487adb18025238e7@mail.gmail.com> <20060416153246.GA22242@panix.com> <20060416155120.GC74410@danimal.org> Message-ID: Hi, Sure, I'm up for giving a talk on Plone (and I think a TurboGears talk would be good as well). June or July would work.. I'm flexible.. so if the IDE presenters would rather do the June meeting..I'm perfectly ok with that.... Donna M. Snow C Squared Technologies On 4/16/06, Dan Weeks wrote: > On 2006-04-16 08:32:46 -0700, Aahz wrote: > > Dennis already has May for his talk on ctypes, but I think the IDE talk > > can easily be moved to July if people want a Plone talk for June. I > > think having the Plone talk would be especially good following the Django > > talk if that happens. > > Great, then we'll have to have a TurboGears talk too. :) > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From donnamsnow at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 06:15:56 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:15:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Plone demo and snacks for Google nights Message-ID: Hi, It's been a busy Easter day at my house..six kids and lots of plastic eggs to fill with candy.. *hop,hop*. Now that all children are in bed.. mildly moaning from eating one more jellybean than they shoulda.. I'll respond to a couple of questions posed today. I'd like to get some feedback..(offlist)..that I can compile and bring back to the list on the best way to handle snacks.. if one goes to have dinner at restaurant Brian has made arrangements with..what will they want when they arrive at the meeting? Just a drink and/or cookies or fruit? What if they are driving straight to meeting from work.. something more substantial? Would someone(s) be willing to help with the refreshments by picking up water, soda, juice,ice...and making sure it got to the meeting OR dropping it off at my house and I'll bring it. Not everyone can attend every meeting.. granted.. so do we collect prior to meeting or at meeting.. what if they don't have any change/money with them? I don't really want to be a snack nazi.. too much of a pushover to succeed at that much.. SO.. what do you guys think? please email me offlist and I'll gather responses on "snack" issues and post on list.. We need a system that won't disrupt the meeting but keeps the snacks flowing... for each subsequent meeting.. Also on Plone demo.. more than willing to do that.. just let me know when and I'll prepare. I can only attend Google meetings though so it should be a Google meeting month. Donna M. Snow C Squared Technologies From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 17 06:59:41 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:59:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: <20060417023529.961ED1E4007@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416210410.00bf0d00@localhost> At 07:35 PM 4/16/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >*We* get 75 minutes. 70 minutes at Google. Mapping/Random Access is scheduled for 5 minutes longer at Google than IronPort to account for the expected larger audience. Yes, while the plural "you" as all speakers combined is also true as you note, I was reckoning that someone needs to keep track of time of the topic discussions during the meeting and ultimately that is the singular "you" as meeting organizer. >July, Google, if no one objects. >How does it happen at Google? Do I need to help there? You and Neil need to be in contact for A-V (audio-visual equipment) and room setup. I currently understand as details for this meeting Date Thur, July 14 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title IDE Comparison Topic Organizer Marilyn Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz >What I don't understand is, who is doing the web page? I hope (we all >hope) that I am not. I envision that the meeting organizer/speaker would like to have a web page on their own servers. The decision maker is the individual organizer/speaker. If such web page exists, I am volunteering to track the URL here in postings. The advantage of speaker/organizer web page is the individuals directly involved in the technical program can post changes/updates and even slides after the talk directly. Fwiw, the copyright status of this posting is unambiguous: it resides with the poster on their own server unless there is explicit alternative statement. In parallel, one can imagine posting of a web page on the BayPiggies web server, along the Stanford model. Aahz is the authority here. I gather we have not had a web page describing the talk for some while. IMO, this is least desirable but all four logical outcomes of outside vs. BayPiggies and yes/no web page can work. To answer your question directly: I think "who/whether" is joint decision between you and Aahz. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 09:48:24 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 00:48:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: <20060417023529.961ED1E4007@bag.python.org> References: <20060417023529.961ED1E4007@bag.python.org> Message-ID: > I have only one working ear and the extra noise makes it difficult for me. Heh, me too. Counting Aahz, that makes three of us ;) From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 09:55:23 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 00:55:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: <3a3f04f50604152004l7d58a2b9h441d2fa93997e33e@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a3f04f50604152004l7d58a2b9h441d2fa93997e33e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jacob, Would you prefer to speak at IronPort in San Bruno or Google in the South Bay? Would you prefer to do it on Wednesday or Thursday? -jj On 4/15/06, Rand Bradley wrote: > It is a great idea to have Jacob speak at BayPiggies when he is in town. I > saw him speak at PyCon and he is excellent! > > > On 4/15/06, Tung Wai Yip < tungwaiyip at yahoo.com> wrote: > > This is the future suggestion I entered in the survey. Seems it come true > > right away! So if you haven't already filled the survey make sure you do > > it at your earliest convenience :) > > > > > > > I know that it's possibly short notice, but Jacob Kaplan-Moss, one of > > > the lead developers of Django, is going to be in town around the 27th. > > > I'd like to propose a not-regularly-scheduled BayPiggies meeting for > > > Thursday the 27th at IronPort to allow Jacob to give a talk on Django. > > > Wesley and Aahz, is that acceptable? > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > -jj > > > > > > On 4/15/06, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote: > > >> Hey Shannon -- > > >> > > >> Thanks for the note about the wrong date; I don't know why I'm > > >> somehow incapable of getting the date right :) > > >> > > >> I'd be thrilled to do a talk for BayPiggies if you want to set it up; > > >> Tuesday or Wednesday night would work best for me, but let me know > > >> what you had in mind... > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Baypiggies mailing list > > > Baypiggies at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > -- > > Kind Regards, > > Rand Bradley > PROJECTWAY, LLC > Phone: (415) 430-5535 > Email: rbradley at projectway.com > http://www.projectway.com > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 17 17:51:48 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 08:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > I have only one working ear and the extra noise makes it difficult for me. > > Heh, me too. Counting Aahz, that makes three of us ;) > Hmmm. Three of us confess. Here I am again, going back to the architecture. Why do we meet at both sites? It seems that the Google meetings are better attended and the acoustics are better. Both places are super-cool. Marilyn From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 17 18:07:12 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Apr 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 07:35 PM 4/16/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > >*We* get 75 minutes. > > 70 minutes at Google. Mapping/Random Access is scheduled for 5 minutes > longer at Google than IronPort to account for the expected larger > audience. Yes, while the plural "you" as all speakers combined is also > true as you note, I was reckoning that someone needs to keep track of time > of the topic discussions during the meeting and ultimately that is the > singular "you" as meeting organizer. > > >July, Google, if no one objects. > >How does it happen at Google? Do I need to help there? > > You and Neil need to be in contact for A-V (audio-visual equipment) and > room setup. I currently understand as details for this meeting > > Date Thur, July 14 > Location Google (contact: Neil) > Working Topic Title IDE Comparison > Topic Organizer Marilyn > Topic URL > Mapping/Random Access Dennis > Refreshments Donna > Dinner Brian > Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > Looks right so far. > > >What I don't understand is, who is doing the web page? I hope (we all > >hope) that I am not. > > I envision that the meeting organizer/speaker would like to have a web page > on their own servers. The decision maker is the individual > organizer/speaker. If such web page exists, I am volunteering to track the > URL here in postings. The advantage of speaker/organizer web page is the > individuals directly involved in the technical program can post > changes/updates and even slides after the talk directly. Fwiw, the > copyright status of this posting is unambiguous: it resides with the poster > on their own server unless there is explicit alternative statement. I see. That makes sense for the general case. In our case, with multiple speakers, do I collect everyone's text and put it on a web page? Or does each speaker put their info on a web page and give me their url and I put links to those urls on a web page and give that url to the group site? I guess the later is better so that people can post their slides and keep control of their info. That would be the Cascading Stanford Model? And it is the object-oriented model since everyone keeps their own data, surely a better experience for everyone and a better product. I expect that we are working out a pattern for other talks, something to suggest to the next speaker/organizer of multiple speakers. > > In parallel, one can imagine posting of a web page on the BayPiggies web > server, along the Stanford model. Aahz is the authority here. > > I gather we have not had a web page describing the talk for some > while. IMO, this is least desirable but all four logical outcomes of > outside vs. BayPiggies and yes/no web page can work. I guess there have been web pages for talks, but they disappear completely when the talk is done? A nice thing about the Stanford model is that there will be an archive of the talks. > > To answer your question directly: I think "who/whether" is joint decision > between you and Aahz. Does the Stanford model work for you Aahz? It would be less work for you and has the other benefits noted above. Again, thank you Dennis for you help. Marilyn > > > ---------------------------------- > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > ---------------------------------- > > -- From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 17 18:25:44 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:25:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417091724.00bf8550@localhost> At 09:07 AM 4/17/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >That would be the Cascading Stanford Model? Love the name! I think there are independent decisions here. Copyright assumed, there is nothing really preventing BayPiggies webmaster from, for example, doing the rough equivalent of deepcopy and join to produce a page which also resides on the BayPiggies site. >I guess there have been web pages for talks, but they disappear >completely when the talk is done? Really...?? http://baypiggies.net/previous.html is linked from main page, goes as far back as 2002 and also links to even older material. Seems to me at first glance that presentation material on hand has been retained. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From zovirl1 at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 17 17:59:33 2006 From: zovirl1 at sbcglobal.net (Mark Ivey) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 08:59:33 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416115508.00bf4008@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416115508.00bf4008@localhost> Message-ID: Is there an iCalendar schedule for the group? I would find that very useful (and I suspect others would as well) because then I could subscribe to it and have the meetings show up on my calendar. Just a thought.... On Apr 16, 2006, at 12:10 PM, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > I have tried to capture info about upcoming events. I volunteer to > maintain this so that we have a reference of who is doing what and > who to > contact. Here is my draft listing: > > Date April 27, 2006 > Location IronPort > Working Topic Title Django (Jacob Kaplan-Moss) > Topic Organizer JJ > Topic URL > Mapping/Random Access special meeting/none > Refreshments > Dinner TBD > Site Contact JJ > Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > -------------------------------- > Date May 11, 2006 > Location Google > Working Topic Title Survey Results/Ctypes > Topic Organizer Stephen > Topic URL > Mapping/Random Access Dennis > Refreshments > Dinner Brian > Site Contact Neil > Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > -------------------------------- > Date June or July > Location TBD > Working Topic Title IDE Comparison > Topic Organizer Marilyn > Topic URL > Mapping/Random Access Dennis > Refreshments > Dinner Brian > Site Contact TBD > Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > > Looking at this, it looks like there is an immediate hole in our > special > Django meeting at IronPort. We have an out of town guest and it is > not > clear what the refreshments/dinner arrangements are. > > This list is my *understanding* of what things people do. > Additions/deletions? > > We currently do not have topic URLs. If organizers find it useful, > I am > happy to link in this listing to URLs describing the talks for the > meeting. > ---------------------------------- > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 17 18:55:53 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm inserting Donna's talk. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > > On Apr 16, 2006, at 12:10 PM, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > > I have tried to capture info about upcoming events. I volunteer to > > maintain this so that we have a reference of who is doing what and > > who to > > contact. Here is my draft listing: > > > > Date April 27, 2006 > > Location IronPort > > Working Topic Title Django (Jacob Kaplan-Moss) > > Topic Organizer JJ > > Topic URL > > Mapping/Random Access special meeting/none > > Refreshments > > Dinner TBD > > Site Contact JJ > > Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > > -------------------------------- > > Date May 11, 2006 > > Location Google > > Working Topic Title Survey Results/Ctypes > > Topic Organizer Stephen > > Topic URL > > Mapping/Random Access Dennis > > Refreshments > > Dinner Brian > > Site Contact Neil > > Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > > -------------------------------- > > Date June Location TBD Working Topic Title Plone Topic Organizer Donna Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Dinner Donna -- needs help Site Contact TBD Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date July > > Location TBD > > Working Topic Title IDE Comparison > > Topic Organizer Marilyn > > Topic URL > > Mapping/Random Access Dennis > > Refreshments > > Dinner Brian > > Site Contact TBD > > Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > > > > Looking at this, it looks like there is an immediate hole in our > > special > > Django meeting at IronPort. We have an out of town guest and it is > > not > > clear what the refreshments/dinner arrangements are. > > > > This list is my *understanding* of what things people do. > > Additions/deletions? > > > > We currently do not have topic URLs. If organizers find it useful, > > I am > > happy to link in this listing to URLs describing the talks for the > > meeting. > > ---------------------------------- > > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > > ---------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 17 18:58:00 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE demos In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417091724.00bf8550@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 09:07 AM 4/17/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > >That would be the Cascading Stanford Model? > > Love the name! I think there are independent decisions here. Copyright > assumed, there is nothing really preventing BayPiggies webmaster from, for > example, doing the rough equivalent of deepcopy and join to produce a page > which also resides on the BayPiggies site. > > > >I guess there have been web pages for talks, but they disappear > >completely when the talk is done? > > Really...?? http://baypiggies.net/previous.html is linked from main page, > goes as far back as 2002 and also links to even older material. Seems to > me at first glance that presentation material on hand has been retained. Right you are. How are you imagining that the existing old stuff will be handled? And the new old stuff as it develops? Maybe Donna will be handing this in the future? Is this what she is volunteering for? Marilyn > > > ---------------------------------- > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Apr 17 20:03:39 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:03:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060417180339.GA22755@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > Here I am again, going back to the architecture. Why do we meet at > both sites? It seems that the Google meetings are better attended and > the acoustics are better. > > Both places are super-cool. It's partly an accident of historical timing and mostly a deliberate decision. When we lost our Stanford meeting location, IronPort was the first to offer a space, and we saw no reason to stop meeting there just because Google offered a space. In addition, there have always been people who complained that Stanford was too far south (let alone Google), and IronPort has much better access to public transit. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 17 19:43:45 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:43:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> At 09:55 AM 4/17/2006, you wrote: >I'm inserting Donna's talk. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think we need a single copy of the schedule of upcoming events. If you want to maintain the list, let's either transfer the list to you or come up with some simple source control protocol between ourselves. Several of items for other meetings are not the latest copy I have. Your entry has one issue in this combination: Date June Location TBD The location for June is IronPort. Donna has indicated she can speak only at Google, not IronPort. The next open Google night is Sep. You show your own July location as TBD. You have raised in a separate thread why we simply do not have all our meetings at Google. Good question. Google is more convenient for me so I don't oppose a move. I would like to see discussion. In the absence of some sort of emergent consensus for change, I think the schedule is IronPort June, Aug, Oct, ... Google May, July, Sep, ... My inclination, until we have consensus is to show: Date Sep. Location Google The other thing I wonder about is Working Topic Title Plone It appears to me that Plone is a CMS built on Zope3. As such, there is a funneling effect where people must accept that they need a CMS and that Zope3 is the proper foundation. TurboGears looks like an interesting Web Development Platform. Could these be combined into a Web framework talk? Would this be better? I am unfamiliar with either (although I have done very basic work with Zope 2). I am an absolute newbie in all of these areas and my comments should be weighted as such. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 17 19:55:26 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:55:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Web site In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417091724.00bf8550@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417104724.00bebc80@localhost> At 09:58 AM 4/17/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >How are you imagining that the existing old stuff will be handled? >And the new old stuff as it develops? Consistent with the way it is now. >Maybe Donna will be handing this in the future? Is this what she is >volunteering for? I sense a culture clash here. The technological approach and goals implemented presently look markedly different than the kind of tools Donna is using. The existing web page meet our publication needs and exceed what I would expect in terms of continuity and preserving past records. Our web site is not something where I want to put my personal energy. I am much more concerned about the logistic, process, and content of our meetings. For me, web site direction is up to those maintaining it now. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Apr 17 20:10:21 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:10:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting summaries and links In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060417181021.GB22755@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > In our case, with multiple speakers, do I collect everyone's text > and put it on a web page? Or does each speaker put their info on a > web page and give me their url and I put links to those urls on a > web page and give that url to the group site? I guess the later is > better so that people can post their slides and keep control of their > info. That would be the Cascading Stanford Model? And it is the > object-oriented model since everyone keeps their own data, surely a > better experience for everyone and a better product. If you look at the history of BayPIGgies meetings, when we're doing a good job, the BayPIGgies page contains a reasonable summary that links to the presenters' longer pages. What changes do you think should be made to this and why? -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 17 20:24:35 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: <20060417180339.GA22755@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Aahz wrote: > On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > > > Here I am again, going back to the architecture. Why do we meet at > > both sites? It seems that the Google meetings are better attended and > > the acoustics are better. > > > > Both places are super-cool. > > It's partly an accident of historical timing and mostly a deliberate > decision. When we lost our Stanford meeting location, IronPort was the > first to offer a space, and we saw no reason to stop meeting there just > because Google offered a space. In addition, there have always been > people who complained that Stanford was too far south (let alone Google), > and IronPort has much better access to public transit. > Can anyone speak for meetings at Ironport, or against having all regular meetings at Google? Stephen, do your survey results show that we should maintain two sites? Will anyone take it personally if we have just the Google site? Marilyn From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Apr 17 20:37:06 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:37:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> Message-ID: <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > The location for June is IronPort. Donna has indicated she can speak only > at Google, not IronPort. The next open Google night is Sep. Unless someone objects, my inclination is to have Donna do a Plone talk in July at Google and move the IDE talk, possibly to June at IronPort. Or Donna could take September at Google -- I don't much care myself. > It appears to me that Plone is a CMS built on Zope3. As such, there is a > funneling effect where people must accept that they need a CMS and that > Zope3 is the proper foundation. Not really. Part of the point of Plone as I understand it is to mostly hide Zope from the developer. > TurboGears looks like an interesting Web Development Platform. Could > these be combined into a Web framework talk? Would this be better? > I am unfamiliar with either (although I have done very basic work > with Zope 2). I am an absolute newbie in all of these areas and my > comments should be weighted as such. My experience is that while "framework shootouts" can be interesting, you really need a full hour talk if you want to show off what a framework can do. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From eric at ericwalstad.com Mon Apr 17 20:43:16 2006 From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:43:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604171143.17175.eric@ericwalstad.com> On Monday 17 April 2006 11:24, Marilyn Davis wrote: > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Aahz wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > > Why do we meet at > > > both sites? > > > > there have always been > > people who complained that Stanford was too far south (let alone Google) > > Can anyone speak for meetings at Ironport, or against having all > regular meetings at Google? -1 for Google-only meetings. +0 for Google-and-IronPort meetings. +1 for IronPort (or other Northerly location) only meetings. I know, I'm dreamin. Commuting-from-SF-ly yours, Eric. From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 17 20:46:47 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:46:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: References: <20060417180339.GA22755@panix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417114056.00bf5418@localhost> At 11:24 AM 4/17/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >Will anyone take it personally if we have just the Google site? I have been actively volunteering for only a short time, but it really does seem we are having an easier time getting speakers for Google location. Let me add a question here: what past speakers have IronPort vs. Google location preferences and what are they? ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From deirdre at deirdre.net Mon Apr 17 20:55:35 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:55:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5508BA8D-684C-4737-B0AD-48FDAE831DF1@deirdre.net> On Apr 17, 2006, at 11:24 AM, Marilyn Davis wrote: > Can anyone speak for meetings at Ironport, or against having all > regular meetings at Google? More importantly, what percentage of people go to both meetings? I'm betting that some of the people who go to the Ironport meetings don't go to the Google ones. And vice-versa. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 17 20:58:11 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting summaries and links In-Reply-To: <20060417181021.GB22755@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Aahz wrote: > On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > > > In our case, with multiple speakers, do I collect everyone's text > > and put it on a web page? Or does each speaker put their info on a > > web page and give me their url and I put links to those urls on a > > web page and give that url to the group site? I guess the later is > > better so that people can post their slides and keep control of their > > info. That would be the Cascading Stanford Model? And it is the > > object-oriented model since everyone keeps their own data, surely a > > better experience for everyone and a better product. > > If you look at the history of BayPIGgies meetings, when we're doing a > good job, the BayPIGgies page contains a reasonable summary that links > to the presenters' longer pages. What changes do you think should be > made to this and why? > I was trying to help facilitate Dennis' suggestion that we pattern the display like: http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ I like it but I am not attached to it. Dennis said: > >How are you imagining that the existing old stuff will be handled? > >And the new old stuff as it develops? > > Consistent with the way it is now. OK. I was just wondering if the links would be stable as they seem to be at the ee380 site, or if the links would be moved to a list of old talks. Again, I'm just trying to get the spec straight. It is no real issue for me. > > >Maybe Donna will be handing this in the future? Is this what she is > >volunteering for? > > I sense a culture clash here. The technological approach and goals > implemented presently look markedly different than the kind of tools Donna > is using. The existing web page meet our publication needs and exceed what Oh. I'm too tool dumb to know that I was suggesting a culture clash. > I would expect in terms of continuity and preserving past records. Our web > site is not something where I want to put my personal energy. I am much > more concerned about the logistic, process, and content of our meetings. > > For me, web site direction is up to those maintaining it now. Maybe Wes was maintaining it? I thought, in the end, he fixed up the page for JJ's talk on Thursday, and Aahz disclaimed the earlier work on the page. I thought I remembered that Donna volunteered to make a new look for us. So I thought we should be talking to her. Again, I'm not pushing anything, just trying to clarify and build momentum. > >I'm inserting Donna's talk. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > > I think we need a single copy of the schedule of upcoming events. If you > want to maintain the list, let's either transfer the list to you or come up No no. I don't want to maintain the list. I just wanted to get Donna on there so that she wouldn't feel left out. > with some simple source control protocol between ourselves. Several of > items for other meetings are not the latest copy I have. Oh. I was responding Mark Ivey's post which contained your post. Mark also said: > Is there an iCalendar schedule for the group? I would find that very > useful (and I suspect others would as well) because then I could > subscribe to it and have the meetings show up on my calendar. Just a > thought.... so maybe we can consider using some tools to keep stuff straight. I'm not a web person and really know nothing about all that magic. > > Your entry has one issue in this combination: > > Date June > Location TBD > > The location for June is IronPort. Donna has indicated she can speak only > at Google, not IronPort. The next open Google night is Sep. You show your > own July location as TBD. You have raised in a separate thread why we > simply do not have all our meetings at Google. Good question. Google is > more convenient for me so I don't oppose a move. I would like to see > discussion. In the absence of some sort of emergent consensus for change, > I think the schedule is IronPort June, Aug, Oct, ... Google May, July, > Sep, ... My inclination, until we have consensus is to show: > > Date Sep. > Location Google > OK. Sounds right. > > The other thing I wonder about is > > Working Topic Title Plone > > It appears to me that Plone is a CMS built on Zope3. As such, there is a > funneling effect where people must accept that they need a CMS and that > Zope3 is the proper foundation. TurboGears looks like an interesting Web > Development Platform. Could these be combined into a Web framework > talk? Would this be better? I am unfamiliar with either (although I have > done very basic work with Zope 2). I am an absolute newbie in all of these > areas and my comments should be weighted as such. I don't know enough to recommend anything but your suggestion sounds even more interesting to me than the Plone-only talk. But I don't know if it's practical. Marilyn From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Apr 17 21:06:05 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Aahz wrote: > On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > > > The location for June is IronPort. Donna has indicated she can speak only > > at Google, not IronPort. The next open Google night is Sep. > > Unless someone objects, my inclination is to have Donna do a Plone talk > in July at Google and move the IDE talk, possibly to June at IronPort. No please. Can we please have the IDE talk at Google? September is fine. July is fine. We have no talk for June at Ironport. Gotta go now, Marilyn > Or Donna could take September at Google -- I don't much care myself. > > > It appears to me that Plone is a CMS built on Zope3. As such, there is a > > funneling effect where people must accept that they need a CMS and that > > Zope3 is the proper foundation. > > Not really. Part of the point of Plone as I understand it is to mostly > hide Zope from the developer. > > > TurboGears looks like an interesting Web Development Platform. Could > > these be combined into a Web framework talk? Would this be better? > > I am unfamiliar with either (although I have done very basic work > > with Zope 2). I am an absolute newbie in all of these areas and my > > comments should be weighted as such. > > My experience is that while "framework shootouts" can be interesting, > you really need a full hour talk if you want to show off what a > framework can do. > -- From donnamsnow at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 21:15:05 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:15:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> Message-ID: I am more than comfy with either of those dates. Yes Plone is a CMS build on Zope. Silva (http://www.infrae.net) is another CMS built on Zope. I used Silva in 2001..built a couple sites on it..but haven't touched it since I started working with Plone. Nothing wrong with Silva.. the front end just wasn't as intuitive as the Plone version. They may have changed it since. I also work with php based cms's like Joomla and Drupal.. it really depends on the clients needs. Plone can be overkill for basic brochureware sites that just want the ability to update content. Plone isn't on Zope3 yet.. the newly released Plone 2.5 beta requires Zope 2.9 + Five (Five is a Zope 2 product that allows you to integrate Zope 3 technologies into Zope 2, today. It allows you to use all parts of the Zope 3 component architecture within Zope 2, namely interfaces, adapters and views. It also re-implements a few features known from Zope 3, such as the automatic generation of add and edit forms based on schemas, so that they can be used in a Zope 2 environment.) Plone 3.0 should be Zope 3.. but that's not due out for six months. Maybe we just have a python related CMS night.. I don't know of any other ones.. but maybe TurboGears has a CMS built on it's framework? I'm extremely flexible so if we opt for a night where we have more than one discussion of python related cms's..I could most definitely fill the hour with Plone..as there is more to it that it appears.. on the outside. Also, I'm not a programmer.. new to Python..but I've been building on Zope/Plone since 2001.. and am a designer/trainer comfortable with the system even though I can't program python to save my life (yet). Donna M.Snow C Squared Technologies From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 17 21:12:25 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:12:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: <5508BA8D-684C-4737-B0AD-48FDAE831DF1@deirdre.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417120619.00be8fe0@localhost> At 11:55 AM 4/17/2006, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: >More importantly, what percentage of people go to both meetings? Let me give my rough average *impressions*, having attended meetings at both sites: Google IronPort Attend at that site only 45 15 Attend at either site 15 15 ---- ------ Total Audience 60 30 IOW, we do not lose the IronPort attendees. IMO, about half of them are showing up at either location. Percentages fall out of the above. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 17 21:37:31 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:37:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417122649.00c09110@localhost> At 12:15 PM 4/17/2006, Donna Snow wrote: >Also, I'm not a programmer.. new to Python..but I've been >building on Zope/Plone since 2001.. and am a designer/trainer >comfortable with the system even though I can't program python to save >my life (yet). I think not programming in Python will be a problem for a dedicated program. I would like to see some plan for how this presentation will address specific Python questions: no Python specific content (not good) pairing with another presentation relying on audience defer for now to gather more Python experience .... Regards, Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From wescpy at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 21:44:11 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:44:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: References: <20060417180339.GA22755@panix.com> Message-ID: <78b3a9580604171244g582574f0n9f40e132ce087c8f@mail.gmail.com> > > > Why do we meet at > > > both sites? It seems that the Google meetings are better attended and > > > the acoustics are better. > > > > > > Both places are super-cool. > > >> IronPort has much better access to public transit. > > Can anyone speak for meetings at Ironport, or against having all > regular meetings at Google? > > Will anyone take it personally if we have just the Google site? the meetings at IronPort are a compromise for those coming from NB/marin, SF, and the EB. that *and*, as Aahz has already mentioned, the san bruno location has awesome public transit access (CalTrain, BART, SamTrans), etc. the meetings will continue at both sites unless certain events happen: 1) we lose the IronPort location 2) attendance is so strong, it reaches critical mass such that separate EB, SF, and/or NB groups splinter off from BayPIGgies 3) current members all agree (similar numbers to name-changing) if we want to keep attracting attendees, we need to alter locations. i am even proposing we have meetings in the EB once or twice a year if we can find facilities. otherwise, what's the point of being a "Bay Area" Python user group if we cannot accomodate folks who happen to live elsewhere? in this case, we really would lose the BayPIGgies name and spirit and become a silicon valley-only group, which should require a name change...to... uh... SVPIGgies... pronounced "SVEE-pig-gies". :-) -wesley From wescpy at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 21:53:13 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:53:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417122649.00c09110@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060417122649.00c09110@localhost> Message-ID: <78b3a9580604171253j2b0f997bv26d83447d5561f6d@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 12:15 PM 4/17/2006, Donna Snow wrote: > >Also, I'm not a programmer.. new to Python..but I've been > >building on Zope/Plone since 2001.. and am a designer/trainer > >comfortable with the system even though I can't program python to save > >my life (yet). > > I think not programming in Python will be a problem for a dedicated > program. I would like to see some plan for how this presentation will > address specific Python questions: > > no Python specific content (not good) > pairing with another presentation > relying on audience > defer for now to gather more Python experience this is an interesting conundrum: a "killer app" written in Python, yet no Python is necessary to design a system with it; although being able to code in Python would allow for optimal flexibility with the system. i would agree with a conditional pair presentation. donna should be able to give hers as-is, without any Python. i mean, she is showing interest in Python just by being on this mailing list. if anyone else in the group has mucked with Plone by fiddling with its Python, then they should give a quicky demo of tweaking Donna's demo site (that she would've just built in front of everyone). if no one volunteers, then we leave donna's presentation in there. i don't want there *not* to be a Plone presentation just because we can't find someone who has coded Python for it. -wesley From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Apr 17 21:55:22 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:55:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580604171253j2b0f997bv26d83447d5561f6d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060417122649.00c09110@localhost> <78b3a9580604171253j2b0f997bv26d83447d5561f6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060417195521.GA13716@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, w chun wrote: > > this is an interesting conundrum: a "killer app" written in Python, > yet no Python is necessary to design a system with it; although being > able to code in Python would allow for optimal flexibility with the > system. > > i would agree with a conditional pair presentation. donna should be > able to give hers as-is, without any Python. i mean, she is showing > interest in Python just by being on this mailing list. if anyone else > in the group has mucked with Plone by fiddling with its Python, then > they should give a quicky demo of tweaking Donna's demo site (that she > would've just built in front of everyone). if no one volunteers, then > we leave donna's presentation in there. i don't want there *not* to > be a Plone presentation just because we can't find someone who has > coded Python for it. Yes, exactly. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Apr 17 21:58:33 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:58:33 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417120619.00be8fe0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417120619.00be8fe0@localhost> Message-ID: <20060417195833.GB13716@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > Let me give my rough average *impressions*, having attended meetings at > both sites: > > Google IronPort > Attend at that site only 45 15 > Attend at either site 15 15 > ---- ------ > Total Audience 60 30 Thirty people is quite respectable for a user group meeting! There have been excellent meetings in the past with fewer than fifteen people showing up. Based on this, we're definitely keeping both locations. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 17 22:07:04 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:07:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417125954.00be1e58@localhost> At 09:55 AM 4/17/2006, you wrote: Following is latest schedule I envision. The Django meeting is loose at the moment as the last I heard, the speaker has been offered 2 days and 2 locations to choose between. I have not posted a Plone presentation, waiting for clarification of how Python relevance will be addressed in the presentation itself. There is an open discussion of future meeting locations. This schedule assumes no location change from present as its baseline. Date Thur, April 27, 2006 (alt offer to spkr: Wed) Location IronPort (contact: JJ) (alt offer to spkr: Google) Working Topic Title Django (Jacob Kaplan-Moss) Topic Organizer JJ Topic URL Mapping/Random Access special meeting/none Refreshments Dinner TBD Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date Thur, May 11, 2006 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title Survey Results/Ctypes Topic Organizer Stephen Topic URL(s) pending, http://www.spamai.com/present/ Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date Thur, June 8 Location IronPort (contact: JJ) Working Topic Title TBD Topic Organizer Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date Thur, July 14 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title IDE Comparison Topic Organizer Marilyn Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From DennisR at dair.com Tue Apr 18 00:15:39 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:15:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580604171244g582574f0n9f40e132ce087c8f@mail.gmail.co m> References: <20060417180339.GA22755@panix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417145113.00be2720@localhost> > *and*, as Aahz has already mentioned, >the san bruno location has awesome public transit access (CalTrain, >BART, SamTrans), etc. Let's have a show of hands here. How many people attending the last meeting actually used the "awesome" public transit? South bay public transit is not awesome and I drove alone for 60 miles round trip. This is about 55 miles more than a trip to Google for me. The "awesome" public transit is not showing up in "awesome" San Bruno attendance. It is not at all clear that the San Bruno location is more environment friendly in practice, if that is where the public transit argument is going. For me personally, San Bruno is producing over 10x gasoline byproducts than the Google location for each meeting I attend. My estimate is that 45 Google attendees and 15 IronPort attendees consider the gap between San Bruno and Mountain View too far to travel, so they basically don't. A core of about 15 then travel to both locations. On my numbers (60 miles distant vs. 6 miles local), those 15 travelers have a 10x environment impact over "local attendees" every other month. I intuit we could more than halve our environmental impact by consolidating where our population base appears centered approximately 3 to 1 (estimated based on observed meeting attendance): Google. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From donnamsnow at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 00:25:14 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:25:14 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: <20060417195521.GA13716@panix.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060417122649.00c09110@localhost> <78b3a9580604171253j2b0f997bv26d83447d5561f6d@mail.gmail.com> <20060417195521.GA13716@panix.com> Message-ID: Hi, I just wanted you all to know that being a non-programmer I've still managed to successfully develop dynamics sites with Plone. I know my way around the Zope Management Interface and Plone and have actually researched python solutions for specific requests from clients. I also have an associate I turn to when I need python scripts tweaked in the system. He's not willing to speak but could address some of the questions that might be over my head. I joined the list because I want to be able to write Plone products myself (as I have ideas for ways to expand this application) and in doing so I need to learn Python. I realize it seems odd for a non-programmer to hold a demo on a python based web framework..but I think it will definitely show that this toolkit is a good springboard for those who program in this language to take this application to another level). This could hold for any other python based web framework as well. As mentioned, I joined this list because I'm interested in learning much, much more.. I've become a huge fan of Plone from an designer, web provider, end-user standpoint.. now I'd like to give back to the community at a higher level and to do so.. I need to learn Python. I'm open on date of demo, length of demo, sharing of demo with someone with python background, .. just not locale.. What better way to demonstrate that python was used to create a full-featured framework that allows a designer to build a membership-ready site with pluggable modules and a user interface that is intuitive and allows sharing of files and upload of content without touching the backend (Zope) or server. Tying this into Python is really dependent on the programmers desire to enhance what is already there. Best Regards, Donna M. Snow C Squared Technologies On 4/17/06, Aahz wrote: > On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, w chun wrote: > > > > this is an interesting conundrum: a "killer app" written in Python, > > yet no Python is necessary to design a system with it; although being > > able to code in Python would allow for optimal flexibility with the > > system. > > > > i would agree with a conditional pair presentation. donna should be > > able to give hers as-is, without any Python. i mean, she is showing > > interest in Python just by being on this mailing list. if anyone else > > in the group has mucked with Plone by fiddling with its Python, then > > they should give a quicky demo of tweaking Donna's demo site (that she > > would've just built in front of everyone). if no one volunteers, then > > we leave donna's presentation in there. i don't want there *not* to > > be a Plone presentation just because we can't find someone who has > > coded Python for it. > > Yes, exactly. > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From deirdre at deirdre.net Tue Apr 18 00:25:30 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:25:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417145113.00be2720@localhost> References: <20060417180339.GA22755@panix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060417145113.00be2720@localhost> Message-ID: <15D2A686-9370-4B2A-8726-61DCF231E1B3@deirdre.net> On Apr 17, 2006, at 3:15 PM, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > Let's have a show of hands here. How many people attending the last > meeting actually used the "awesome" public transit? So people should have to have a car (or a lift) to belong to a Python interest group and attend meetings? Fwiw, a significant number (way more than I'd expect) of people who are technical in the bay area do not drive or do not own cars. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From baypiggies at danimal.org Tue Apr 18 00:34:11 2006 From: baypiggies at danimal.org (Dan Weeks) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:34:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: <15D2A686-9370-4B2A-8726-61DCF231E1B3@deirdre.net> References: <20060417180339.GA22755@panix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060417145113.00be2720@localhost> <15D2A686-9370-4B2A-8726-61DCF231E1B3@deirdre.net> Message-ID: <20060417223411.GA28197@danimal.org> On 2006-04-17 15:25:30 -0700, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > On Apr 17, 2006, at 3:15 PM, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > > Let's have a show of hands here. How many people attending the last > > meeting actually used the "awesome" public transit? > > So people should have to have a car (or a lift) to belong to a Python > interest group and attend meetings? > > Fwiw, a significant number (way more than I'd expect) of people who > are technical in the bay area do not drive or do not own cars. Indeed. I don't attend meetings for one reason, the distance and time involved. Generally I take BART to work in SF from the East Bay. If I were to goto a meeting I'd have to drive to work and then drive to the meeting and then home. That's at least a 45 mile roundtrip to San Bruno and an 85 mile round trip to Google. No thanks. That said a really awesome topic might get me out or maybe I could present, but until then I'm really tempted to unsubscribe from the list for a whlie. Dan From rdm at cfcl.com Tue Apr 18 01:06:03 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:06:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: <20060417223411.GA28197@danimal.org> References: <20060417180339.GA22755@panix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060417145113.00be2720@localhost> <15D2A686-9370-4B2A-8726-61DCF231E1B3@deirdre.net> <20060417223411.GA28197@danimal.org> Message-ID: At 3:34 PM -0700 4/17/06, Dan Weeks wrote: > That said a really awesome topic might get me out or maybe I could > present, but until then I'm really tempted to unsubscribe from the > list for a whlie. I wouldn't be surprised if some other folks are considering bailing out (or have already bailed out), due to the amount of traffic. So, here are a couple of suggestions: * Establish "baypiggies-announce at python.org" for folks who just want to hear about Python-related events. * Set up a calendar server, so that folks can "subscribe" and get the events on their favorite calendar program. -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From davidlmontgomery at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 01:10:16 2006 From: davidlmontgomery at gmail.com (David Montgomery) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:10:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations Message-ID: <96d4cf580604171610n7981ce7aq4c1b3284fc3fa9ca@mail.gmail.com> > Let's have a show of hands here. How many people attending the last > meeting actually used the "awesome" public transit? I did. I came from El Cerrito, in the East Bay. I hope that meetings will continue to be held at IronPort. David From DennisR at dair.com Tue Apr 18 01:16:14 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:16:14 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: <20060417195521.GA13716@panix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060417122649.00c09110@localhost> <78b3a9580604171253j2b0f997bv26d83447d5561f6d@mail.gmail.com> <20060417195521.GA13716@panix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417155047.00bf26a8@localhost> At 03:25 PM 4/17/2006, Donna Snow wrote: >Hi, >I'm open on date of demo, length of demo, sharing of demo with someone >with python background, .. just not locale.. Donna, Based on locale, the first Google opening is in Sept. We are all newbies at something. I had not heard of Plone before. Based on comments of others here who know more about Plone than I do, there is interest in hearing about Plone from you. I propose the following addition to schedule: Date Thur, Sep 14 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title Plone Topic Organizer Donna Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna (help needed?) Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz September is nearly 5 months from now. Your grasp of Python in Sep. time frame may well allow you to cover the Python connection by yourself. Sharing of the demo is another approach, among others, to seeing that there is Python content in the talk. As organizer, I think it is your decision how you will incorporate Python content in your talk. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From ben at groovie.org Tue Apr 18 04:14:56 2006 From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:14:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580604171244g582574f0n9f40e132ce087c8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060417180339.GA22755@panix.com> <78b3a9580604171244g582574f0n9f40e132ce087c8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16A8DC14-DA03-49D8-95F5-D49E924B1431@groovie.org> On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:44 PM, w chun wrote: > 1) we lose the IronPort location > 2) attendance is so strong, it reaches critical mass such that > separate EB, SF, and/or NB groups splinter off from BayPIGgies > 3) current members all agree (similar numbers to name-changing) > > if we want to keep attracting attendees, we need to alter locations. > i am even proposing we have meetings in the EB once or twice a year if > we can find facilities. otherwise, what's the point of being a "Bay > Area" Python user group if we cannot accomodate folks who happen to > live elsewhere? > > in this case, we really would lose the BayPIGgies name and spirit and > become a silicon valley-only group, which should require a name > change...to... uh... SVPIGgies... pronounced "SVEE-pig-gies". :-) It's not really Bay Area right now anyways, since it takes over an hour, closer to 2 hours for some locations of the Bay area to get to the other. It's a huge area really. I come from the North Bay and its a solid hour and a half to get to Google, bout an hour to IronPort. I think it'd be great to have a meeting in the EB (only 45 mins for me to get to Oakland/Berkeley), or even a meeting somewhere in SF (35 mins or less). Alternatively, if there were enough people interested in meeting in the North Bay on occasion, I could probably get a room for an evening at O'Reilly. Cheers, Ben From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Apr 18 04:17:28 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:17:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations In-Reply-To: <16A8DC14-DA03-49D8-95F5-D49E924B1431@groovie.org> References: <20060417180339.GA22755@panix.com> <78b3a9580604171244g582574f0n9f40e132ce087c8f@mail.gmail.com> <16A8DC14-DA03-49D8-95F5-D49E924B1431@groovie.org> Message-ID: <20060418021728.GA15413@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006, Ben Bangert wrote: > > Alternatively, if there were enough people interested in meeting in > the North Bay on occasion, I could probably get a room for an evening > at O'Reilly. +1 ;-) (Not that I'd be able to go, but the "cool" factor of having a BayPIGgies meeting at O'Reilly would probably bring a lot of people. Certainly worth a shot.) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "LL YR VWL R BLNG T S" From ra at burningman.com Tue Apr 18 04:25:06 2006 From: ra at burningman.com (Rob Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:25:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> Message-ID: Donna Snow wrote: > Plone isn't on Zope3 yet.. the newly released Plone 2.5 beta requires > Zope 2.9 + Five > (Five is a Zope 2 product that allows you to integrate Zope 3 > technologies into Zope 2, today. It allows you to use all parts of the > Zope 3 component architecture within Zope 2, namely interfaces, > adapters and views. It also re-implements a few features known from > Zope 3, such as the automatic generation of add and edit forms based > on schemas, so that they can be used in a Zope 2 environment.) > > Plone 3.0 should be Zope 3.. but that's not due out for six months. this isn't exactly true. Plone 3.0 (which will probably land in late 2006 or early 2007) is, as of today, slated to depend on Zope 2.10. however, as you said, Zope2 and Zope3 are on something of a convergence path. Z3 was a complete, ground-up rewrite. it's a greatly improved technology, IMO, but the immense existing base of Z2-based software made it hard for many of us who make our living writing Zope applications for a living to make the jump. ("For only $30,000 more I could write this in Zope3. It won't look any better, and it will have fewer features, but my geek friends will all think it's cooler!" yeah, right..) luckily, Five was developed, and now nearly all new Z2-based development is actually drawing very heavily on Z3-technology and Z3-based patterns. there are efforts underway to replace Z2's publisher and templating engine with the Z3 implementation. eventually Z2 will be little more than a particular configuration of Z3 technology. and Z3 will look a whole lot more like a collection of useful libraries than a monolithic app server; some would argue that this is already the case. as such, Plone has no intention of explicitly making the jump to being a "pure" Z3 application... there's no need. > Maybe we just have a python related CMS night.. I don't know of any > other ones.. but maybe TurboGears has a CMS built on it's framework? perhaps, but i agree w/ someone else's sentiment that an hour isn't very long... an hour will only touch on Plone superficially, trying to fit another platform in as well will compress things beyond the point of usefulness, i fear. -r From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Tue Apr 18 11:13:51 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 02:13:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations / Location results from 39 responses Message-ID: To add some data, below are the survey results so far on Q9: Geographical preference based on 39 responses. (Best viewed in a fixed-font, or save this to file and view that in fixed font.) To reduce list volume, can we table discussing this issue until May meeting? I will present final numbers with graphs which might shed more light. e.g. a graph of "meeting attendance pie chart broken down by primary geographical preference" Since we know enough to know it has no easy solution. Results & Analysis - there is no best location, however...: - SB is rated 'Most Convenient' by 49% outright, 'Conv't' or better by 59%, and at least 'Ok' by 74% - Pen is rated 'Most Convenient' by only 3%, 'Conv't' or better by 36%, and at least 'Ok' by 64% - SF or EB (e.g. near BART/101/880) are both distinctly less popular, rated 'conv't' or better by only 38%/41% respectively. Maybe we could discuss having 2 a year if someone could secure a location (e.g. UCSF, Emeryville...?) - NB is utterly out of the question: it's only rated 'Ok' or better by 13%. Sorry O'Reilly. - lesson learnt: should have split Peninsula into Sth Pen and Nth Pen (splitting at San Mateo) - I think the most useful table is the third one: 'Location preference, by CUMULATIVE PERCENT' SB is rated 'Ok' or better by 74%, Pen by 64%, SF by only 38%, EB by 41%, NB by only 13% - re Dennis's comment about increased trip times: all we can do is try to arrange carpooling. Several people have indicated they want the agenda nailed down early enough (2 wks advance?) to allow them to decide whether they are going/ carpooling/ arrange a ride to BART/Caltrain. - strictly speaking we could have asked each person for the zip code from which they travel (work/school/home) and the zip code they return to (usually home) then you could get each person's trip distance from: http://www.melissadata.com/lookups/index.htm and figure out the preferred centroid and radius... also would have been helpful to visually cluster-plot the pins on a map with Google Map. Suggestions - these results are skewed towards the 39 of the 332 list members who responded. It's not weighted by the number of meetings people currently attend (which would be unfair). - please don't not have a show of hands on the list, that's precisely what the survey is for. - please no further discussion of name, at this point. - anyone who can actually volunteer a location (free, decent room, decent acoustics, good connection WiFi, doesn't require us to have insurance, tables, allows us bring food in), speak up. I saw suggestion of O'Reilly and Stanford. Q9: Location Preferences (after 39 respondents) Location preference, by NUMBER =====|=======|=======|=======|=======|=======| (NUMBER) Not conv. Convenient | Impossible | Ok | Most conv. =====|=======|=======|=======|=======|=======| SB 2 8 6 4 19 Pen 0 14 11 13 1 SF 7 17 7 5 3 EB 10 13 7 4 5 NB 19 15 2 2 1 =====|=======|=======|=======|=======|=======| Location preference, by PERCENT =====|=======|=======|=======|=======|=======| (PERCENT) Not conv. Convenient | Impossible | Ok | Most conv. =====|=======|=======|=======|=======|=======| SB 5% 21% 15% 10% 49% Pen 0% 36% 28% 33% 3% SF 18% 44% 18% 13% 8% EB 26% 33% 18% 10% 13% NB 49% 38% 5% 5% 3% =====|=======|=======|=======|=======|=======| Location preference, by CUMULATIVE PERCENT =====|=======|=======|=======|=======|=======| (CUM PCT) Not conv. Convenient | Impossible | Ok | Most conv. =====|=======|=======|=======|=======|=======| SB 95% 74% 59% 49% Pen 100% 64% 36% 3% SF 82% 38% 21% 8% EB 74% 41% 23% 13% NB 51% 13% 8% 3% =====|=======|=======|=======|=======|=======| where: SB = South Bay (Mtn View or southwards) Pen = Peninsula (Palo Alto up to Daly City) Other (outside Bay Area was excluded since 92% rated it Inconvenient or Impossible) From tpc247 at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 17:21:17 2006 From: tpc247 at gmail.com (tpc247 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:21:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Voting for a new name In-Reply-To: References: <32E6511E-5E68-4DE2-8C99-6CA023BB39AF@deirdre.net> Message-ID: On 4/13/06, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > > On Apr 13, 2006, at 2:51 PM, Danny Yoo wrote: > > > I think the point that we should take from all of this is: some > > people don't like certain names. > > Different organizational goals would suggest different names, thus > choosing the name before sorting out the organizational goal seems > backwards. > > incidentally, I helped found a Java users group in Berkeley called Berkeley Java Users Group, or bjug.net, and for a while I was toying with the idea for founding a Berkeley, or East Bay, Python Interest Group (since going to the South Bay was a deal breaker for me), named, appropriately, PIG Beast, or, if you prefer, Beast PIG. ;-p -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060418/7ae374c1/attachment.html From marilyn at deliberate.com Wed Apr 19 18:57:40 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:57:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations / Location results from 39 responses Message-ID: <20060419165743.4B2F31E4004@bag.python.org> ----- On Tuesday, April 18, 2006 spmcinerney at hotmail.com wrote: Thank you Stephen for the useful analysis and all the data collection. This is a huge service for the group. Stephen said: > - anyone who can actually volunteer a location (free, decent room, decent > acoustics, good connection WiFi, doesn't require us to have insurance, > tables, allows us bring food in), speak up. I saw suggestion of O'Reilly and > Stanford. Another good attribute of a meeting place is a bathroom. Here's an embarrassing story. When I arrived at Ironport, the nice fellow who let me in and led me down to the dungeon, first showed me the bathroom. Now I should explain that I'm making a big effort to stay hydrated and finding bathrooms is a constant problem. So, in the confusion between the random access and the BOF, I sneaked out to go again quickly. Well, I expected that there wasn't one downstairs, so I went upstairs, and the bathroom was locked, and I was locked out until someone finally left. It would be better if this didn't happen to people. Marilyn From rdm at cfcl.com Wed Apr 19 22:32:22 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:32:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Calendar of Bay Area Scripting Events Message-ID: I maintain a list of local scripting-related groups: SF Bay Area Scripting Groups http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass/groups.php as well as an iCalendar service: webcal://cfcl.com/dav_icpub/BA_Scripting_Groups.ics Additions and corrections would be most welcome! This message is brought to you by The Beer & Scripting SIG http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From rdm at cfcl.com Thu Apr 20 01:18:04 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:18:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Calendar of Bay Area Scripting Events Message-ID: I got a bug report (Thanks, Akbar!) about my iCalendar entry not working with Google Calendar, as: Could not fetch the url because robots.txt prevents us from crawling the url. Looking over our robots.txt file, and using this nifty tool: http://tool.motoricerca.info/robots-checker.phtml I found that we had neglected to include trailing slashes on our lines, so a partial match was getting treated as a full one. I also found that the Google won't accept URLs that begin with "webcal://". Sigh. After editing the URL and the file, however, I found that Google STILL wasn't able (or at least, willing :-/) to download the file. So, I copied the file to a different directory: http://cfcl.com/tmp/BA_Scripting_Groups.ics Google accepts this, leading me to believe that that (a) they have a bug in their handling of robots.txt entries or (b) the old entry is stuck in a cache somewhere. Anyway, this URL should work for now, giving me some time to get a better answer... -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From walterv at gbbservices.com Thu Apr 20 20:05:47 2006 From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:05:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] June 14 ACCU presentation change of plans Message-ID: <4447CD7B.1050704@gbbservices.com> We're still having a meeting on June 14, but the scheduled topic and speaker has changed. Instead of "Python at Google" with Greg Stein we will be having "Designing Responsive Software Despite Performance Limitations" with Jeff Johnson. The latest upcoming talks schedule is: May 10, 2006 Scott Atwood A Gentle Introduction to Unicode May 24, 2006 Steve Dewhurst Class Hierarchy Design Idioms in C++ June 14, 2006 Jeff Johnson Designing Responsive Software Despite Performance Limitations All the best, Walter Walter Vannini President, Silicon Valley ACCU From DennisR at dair.com Thu Apr 20 20:49:35 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:49:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Scheduling change of plans In-Reply-To: <4447CD7B.1050704@gbbservices.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060420113721.00bf72f8@localhost> At 11:05 AM 4/20/2006, Walter Vannini wrote: >Instead of "Python at Google" >with Greg Stein .... This is exactly the kind of presentation we should be having at BayPiggies. Unfortunately, the next opening in our Google calender is November. We would have to bump someone to even propose inviting this talk or talks like it. I think we should have Google meetings *every* month. The present alternating schedule is holding back the much larger audience at Google. Let me propose a change in schedule here: IronPort meetings 2nd Thur 4 times/year Google meetings 3rd Thur 10-12 times/year East Bay 1st Thur 1-2 (future, none now) The 10-12 for Google allows us to skip "slow" months such as Aug or Dec, or not. The *concept* of this proposal is that we grow to be a real Bay area organization. The 6x/year is holding back the group centered at Google. By decoupling the IronPort meetings, we can let the constituency at each site grow as they are able to attract speakers and audience. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From jjinux at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 20:51:00 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:51:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: <448828CB-7887-4A1B-A80D-9FC9408840D0@jacobian.org> References: <3a3f04f50604152004l7d58a2b9h441d2fa93997e33e@mail.gmail.com> <448828CB-7887-4A1B-A80D-9FC9408840D0@jacobian.org> Message-ID: On 4/17/06, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote: > On Apr 17, 2006, at 2:55 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > Would you prefer to speak at IronPort in San Bruno or Google in the > > South Bay? Would you prefer to do it on Wednesday or Thursday? > > (Sorry I'm just now replying -- seems my spam filter acted up this > weekend and ate all the BayPiggies messages.) > > Given the choice I think I'd take Google -- I've never seen the > campus, so I think it would be a cool opportunity... Since I'm doing > the dinner meetup on Thursday, I think Wednesday would be best for > the BayPiggies talk. > > Is it cool for me to send an email to the BayPiggies list about the > dinner meetup? Sure! I'm going to go ahead and forward your email. So guys, can we have the talk at Google on the 26th? Best Regards, -jj From jjinux at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 20:56:37 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:56:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Scheduling change of plans In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060420113721.00bf72f8@localhost> References: <4447CD7B.1050704@gbbservices.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060420113721.00bf72f8@localhost> Message-ID: On 4/20/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 11:05 AM 4/20/2006, Walter Vannini wrote: > >Instead of "Python at Google" > >with Greg Stein .... > > This is exactly the kind of presentation we should be having at > BayPiggies. Unfortunately, the next opening in our Google calender is > November. We would have to bump someone to even propose inviting this talk > or talks like it. > > I think we should have Google meetings *every* month. The present > alternating schedule is holding back the much larger audience at Google. > Let me propose a change in schedule here: > > IronPort meetings 2nd Thur 4 times/year > Google meetings 3rd Thur 10-12 times/year > East Bay 1st Thur 1-2 (future, none now) > > The 10-12 for Google allows us to skip "slow" months such as Aug or Dec, or > not. The *concept* of this proposal is that we grow to be a real Bay area > organization. The 6x/year is holding back the group centered at > Google. By decoupling the IronPort meetings, we can let the constituency > at each site grow as they are able to attract speakers and audience. -1 From rdm at cfcl.com Thu Apr 20 22:43:38 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:43:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Scheduling change of plans In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060420113721.00bf72f8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060420113721.00bf72f8@localhost> Message-ID: At 11:49 AM -0700 4/20/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > Let me propose a change in schedule here: > > IronPort meetings 2nd Thur 4 times/year > Google meetings 3rd Thur 10-12 times/year > East Bay 1st Thur 1-2 (future, none now) I understand the motivation for varying the location, but I don't understand why the date should jump around. Unless there is a REALLY compelling reason for this, I suggest that the date be easy to remember, plan for, etc. Rick Moen's page "Recipe for a Successful Linux User Group" should be required reading for anyone who is running ANY kind of user group, etc. I could quibble with a few of his points, but by and large, it's right on target. He says: > 3. You need a regular meeting location. > > Changing meeting locations risks losing attendees like mad. > Why? Because some will come to the prior meeting location, > instead, get discouraged, and maybe even conclude that your > group has folded -- and also because finding out how to get > there, where to park, whether the neighbourhood's OK to > walk in, etc., is a strain on people, each time you move. > > ... > > 4. You need a regular meeting time. > > "Regular" usually means following an easily-remembered-and-used > formula, suitable for people's calendars, pocket planners, and > PalmPilots -- such as 4th Thursday. Don't get fancy with things > like "every other Thursday": Make it so anyone with a calendar > can easily figure out when the next meeting will be. -- Recipe for a Successful Linux User Group http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Linux_PR/newlug.html -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From jjinux at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 22:56:10 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:56:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: References: <3a3f04f50604152004l7d58a2b9h441d2fa93997e33e@mail.gmail.com> <448828CB-7887-4A1B-A80D-9FC9408840D0@jacobian.org> <55dc209b0604201236t2ec8c685pcc628a8bb9f4a8d4@mail.google.com> <4719c6b10604201302v191d5462m5c226d794367899e@mail.google.com> Message-ID: Aahz, I think that counts as "triple confirmed". :) Wednesday, the 26th at Google. -jj ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jacob Kaplan-Moss Date: Apr 20, 2006 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk To: Neal Norwitz Cc: Alex Martelli , Shannon -jj Behrens ... I'll see you all there! Jacob From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Apr 20 22:59:27 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:59:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: References: <3a3f04f50604152004l7d58a2b9h441d2fa93997e33e@mail.gmail.com> <448828CB-7887-4A1B-A80D-9FC9408840D0@jacobian.org> Message-ID: <20060420205927.GA22328@panix.com> On Thu, Apr 20, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > So guys, can we have the talk at Google on the 26th? According to Neal we can. Neal, unless you hear otherwise by 5pm, please assume that we'll want a room at Google on Weds April 26th with our usual start time of 7:30pm. Shannon/Jacob, please triple-confirm ASAP that this works and I'll finalize the web site and post an announcement. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach From jjinux at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 23:14:07 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:14:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: <20060420205927.GA22328@panix.com> References: <3a3f04f50604152004l7d58a2b9h441d2fa93997e33e@mail.gmail.com> <448828CB-7887-4A1B-A80D-9FC9408840D0@jacobian.org> <20060420205927.GA22328@panix.com> Message-ID: Triple confirmed. On 4/20/06, Aahz wrote: > On Thu, Apr 20, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > > > So guys, can we have the talk at Google on the 26th? > > According to Neal we can. Neal, unless you hear otherwise by 5pm, > please assume that we'll want a room at Google on Weds April 26th with > our usual start time of 7:30pm. Shannon/Jacob, please triple-confirm > ASAP that this works and I'll finalize the web site and post an > announcement. From tpc247 at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 23:40:31 2006 From: tpc247 at gmail.com (tpc247 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:40:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: References: <3a3f04f50604152004l7d58a2b9h441d2fa93997e33e@mail.gmail.com> <448828CB-7887-4A1B-A80D-9FC9408840D0@jacobian.org> <20060420205927.GA22328@panix.com> Message-ID: is anyone going to this from the Berkeley area ? If so, I'd love to share a ride and help with gas ! On 4/20/06, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > Triple confirmed. > > On 4/20/06, Aahz wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > > > > > So guys, can we have the talk at Google on the 26th? > > > > According to Neal we can. Neal, unless you hear otherwise by 5pm, > > please assume that we'll want a room at Google on Weds April 26th with > > our usual start time of 7:30pm. Shannon/Jacob, please triple-confirm > > ASAP that this works and I'll finalize the web site and post an > > announcement. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060420/18ed0c1f/attachment.htm From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Apr 20 23:46:25 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:46:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] SPECIAL: BayPIGgies: April 26, 7:30pm (Google) Message-ID: <20060420214625.GA9590@panix.com> NOTE: Special date of WEDNESDAY April 26 at Google, usual time of 7:30pm Special meeting! One of the lead developers of Django is in town! Jacob Kaplan-Moss will be talking about Django at Google. More details as they get finalized -- but save the date! (No, it's not on the website yet...) This does not change the usual May meeting on May 11 at Google; stay tuned for an announcement of that. BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. Advance notice: We have a speakers for May and June. We are currently setting up the schedule for the rest of the year. Please e-mail baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to give a presentation). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach From aleax at google.com Thu Apr 20 23:48:35 2006 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:48:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Palo Alto meetup / Bay Piggies talk In-Reply-To: References: <3a3f04f50604152004l7d58a2b9h441d2fa93997e33e@mail.gmail.com> <448828CB-7887-4A1B-A80D-9FC9408840D0@jacobian.org> <20060420205927.GA22328@panix.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0604201448m265fff4ex15094e8fb29165c8@mail.google.com> On 4/20/06, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Triple confirmed. > > On 4/20/06, Aahz wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > > > > > So guys, can we have the talk at Google on the 26th? > > > > According to Neal we can. Neal, unless you hear otherwise by 5pm, > > please assume that we'll want a room at Google on Weds April 26th with > > our usual start time of 7:30pm. Shannon/Jacob, please triple-confirm > > ASAP that this works and I'll finalize the web site and post an > > announcement. Room requested -- we should be all set. Jacob, would you be willing to sign a release form so we can video your talk and put it on Google Video? We try to do that for all "Technical Talks at Google" when we can get the speaker's written consent to do so (you can find many examples by visiting URL http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=google+engedu ) -- pretty please?-) Alex From jjinux at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 23:58:11 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:58:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting locations / Location results from 39 responses In-Reply-To: <20060419165743.4B2F31E4004@bag.python.org> References: <20060419165743.4B2F31E4004@bag.python.org> Message-ID: On 4/19/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > ----- On Tuesday, April 18, 2006 spmcinerney at hotmail.com wrote: > > Thank you Stephen for the useful analysis and all the data collection. This is a huge service for the group. > > Stephen said: > > - anyone who can actually volunteer a location (free, decent room, decent > > acoustics, good connection WiFi, doesn't require us to have insurance, > > tables, allows us bring food in), speak up. I saw suggestion of O'Reilly and > > Stanford. > > Another good attribute of a meeting place is a bathroom. > > Here's an embarrassing story. When I arrived at Ironport, the nice fellow who let me in and led me down to the dungeon, first showed me the bathroom. > > Now I should explain that I'm making a big effort to stay hydrated and finding bathrooms is a constant problem. > > So, in the confusion between the random access and the BOF, I sneaked out to go again quickly. Well, I expected that there wasn't one downstairs, so I went upstairs, and the bathroom was locked, and I was locked out until someone finally left. > > It would be better if this didn't happen to people. At IronPort, there is a bathroom on the third floor that is not locked. I apologize that I didn't tell you this ahead of time. I just expected people to ask, but I can see how that can be embarrassing. -jj From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Apr 21 00:15:36 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:15:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] SPECIAL: BayPIGgies: April 26, 7:30pm (Google) Message-ID: <20060420221539.5C6451E400B@bag.python.org> ----- On Thursday, April 20, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > NOTE: Special date of WEDNESDAY April 26 at Google, usual time of 7:30pm > > Special meeting! One of the lead developers of Django is in town! Jacob > Kaplan-Moss will be talking about Django at Google. More details as they > get finalized -- but save the date! (No, it's not on the website yet...) > > This does not change the usual May meeting on May 11 at Google; stay > tuned for an announcement of that. > > > BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) > and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and > directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ > > > Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of > dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. > > Advance notice: We have a speakers for May and June. We are currently Unless I missed something, we don't have a speaker for June, or August: Date Thur, April 27, 2006 (alt offer to spkr: Wed) Location IronPort (contact: JJ) (alt offer to spkr: Google) Working Topic Title Django (Jacob Kaplan-Moss) Topic Organizer JJ Topic URL Mapping/Random Access special meeting/none Refreshments Dinner TBD Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date Thur, May 11, 2006 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title Survey Results/Ctypes Topic Organizer Stephen Topic URL(s) pending, http://www.spamai.com/present/ Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date Thur, June 8 Location IronPort (contact: JJ) Working Topic Title TBD Topic Organizer Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date Thur, July 14 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title IDE Comparison Topic Organizer Marilyn Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz Date Thur, Sep 14 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title Plone Topic Organizer Donna Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna (help needed?) Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz ... as gathered from Dennis' emails, without error, I hope. Marilyn > setting up the schedule for the rest of the year. Please e-mail > baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to > give a presentation). > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Apr 21 00:18:06 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:18:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] SPECIAL: BayPIGgies: April 26, 7:30pm (Google) In-Reply-To: <20060420221539.5C6451E400B@bag.python.org> References: <20060420221539.5C6451E400B@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20060420221806.GA23765@panix.com> On Thu, Apr 20, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > ----- On Thursday, April 20, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: >> >> Advance notice: We have a speakers for May and June. We are currently > > Unless I missed something, we don't have a speaker for June, or August: Okay, that's fixed for the next announcement unless someone steps up to the plate. ;-) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Apr 21 00:21:43 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:21:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] SPECIAL: BayPIGgies: April 26, 7:30pm (Google) In-Reply-To: <97148FFD-42BE-4D03-8FCB-092B4F0E67E0@propel.com> References: <20060420214625.GA9590@panix.com> <97148FFD-42BE-4D03-8FCB-092B4F0E67E0@propel.com> Message-ID: <20060420222143.GA5974@panix.com> On Thu, Apr 20, 2006, Eric Brown wrote: > > Is there anybody that is using turbogears that could do a short > presentation or overview as well. It would be great to get a little > bit of comparison. I may be choosing one of these in the near future. Sorry, we try to keep BayPIGgies meetings reasonably short. Also, because this is a special meeting, we want to keep the focus on our featured speaker. We have been discussing a Plone presentation; if someone wants to stup up and do a TurboGears presentation, that would be right welcome. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach From eric.brown at propel.com Fri Apr 21 00:18:12 2006 From: eric.brown at propel.com (Eric Brown) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:18:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] SPECIAL: BayPIGgies: April 26, 7:30pm (Google) In-Reply-To: <20060420214625.GA9590@panix.com> References: <20060420214625.GA9590@panix.com> Message-ID: <97148FFD-42BE-4D03-8FCB-092B4F0E67E0@propel.com> Is there anybody that is using turbogears that could do a short presentation or overview as well. It would be great to get a little bit of comparison. I may be choosing one of these in the near future. On Apr 20, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Aahz wrote: > NOTE: Special date of WEDNESDAY April 26 at Google, usual time of > 7:30pm > > Special meeting! One of the lead developers of Django is in town! > Jacob > Kaplan-Moss will be talking about Django at Google. More details > as they > get finalized -- but save the date! (No, it's not on the website > yet...) > > This does not change the usual May meeting on May 11 at Google; stay > tuned for an announcement of that. > > > BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) > and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and > directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ > > > Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. > Discussion of > dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. > > Advance notice: We have a speakers for May and June. We are > currently > setting up the schedule for the rest of the year. Please e-mail > baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or > volunteer to > give a presentation). > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http:// > www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." -- > Richard Bach > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From DennisR at dair.com Fri Apr 21 00:37:55 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:37:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] SPECIAL: BayPIGgies: April 26, 7:30pm (Google) In-Reply-To: <20060420221539.5C6451E400B@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060420152420.00bfedd8@localhost> > >Date [snip - see below] >Location [snip - see below] >Working Topic Title Django (Jacob Kaplan-Moss) The snipped information shown for the Django talk is dated. The corrected date and location are in the subject line. Please note, April 26 is a Wednesday night. >Unless I missed something, we don't have a speaker for June, or August: That is my understanding too. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Apr 21 00:53:05 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule In-Reply-To: <20060420221539.5C6451E400B@bag.python.org> Message-ID: Thank you Dennis. Good catch. So we have: Date Wed, Apr 26, 2006 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title Django (Jacob Kaplan-Moss) Topic Organizer JJ Topic URL Mapping/Random Access special meeting/none Refreshments Dinner TBD Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date Thur, May 11, 2006 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title Survey Results/Ctypes Topic Organizer Stephen Topic URL(s) pending, http://www.spamai.com/present/ Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date Thur, June 8 Location IronPort (contact: JJ) Working Topic Title TBD Topic Organizer Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz -------------------------------- Date Thur, July 14 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title IDE Comparison Topic Organizer Marilyn Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz Date Thur, Sep 14 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title Plone Topic Organizer Donna Topic URL Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna (help needed?) Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 01:23:38 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:23:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416115508.00bf4008@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060416115508.00bf4008@localhost> Message-ID: On 4/16/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > I have tried to capture info about upcoming events. I volunteer to > maintain this so that we have a reference of who is doing what and who to > contact. Here is my draft listing: > > Date April 27, 2006 > Location IronPort > Working Topic Title Django (Jacob Kaplan-Moss) > Topic Organizer JJ > Topic URL > Mapping/Random Access special meeting/none > Refreshments > Dinner TBD > Site Contact JJ > Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > -------------------------------- > Date May 11, 2006 > Location Google > Working Topic Title Survey Results/Ctypes > Topic Organizer Stephen > Topic URL > Mapping/Random Access Dennis > Refreshments > Dinner Brian > Site Contact Neil > Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > -------------------------------- > Date June or July > Location TBD > Working Topic Title IDE Comparison > Topic Organizer Marilyn > Topic URL > Mapping/Random Access Dennis > Refreshments > Dinner Brian > Site Contact TBD > Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > > Looking at this, it looks like there is an immediate hole in our special > Django meeting at IronPort. We have an out of town guest and it is not > clear what the refreshments/dinner arrangements are. > > This list is my *understanding* of what things people do. Additions/deletions? > > We currently do not have topic URLs. If organizers find it useful, I am > happy to link in this listing to URLs describing the talks for the meeting. I think it's better to have this stuff on baypiggies.net instead of emailed around once in a while. I'm sure Aahz could give you access. Having two people work on the matrix is even better. -jj From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 01:28:07 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:28:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> Message-ID: > It appears to me that Plone is a CMS built on Zope3. As such, there is a > funneling effect where people must accept that they need a CMS and that > Zope3 is the proper foundation. TurboGears looks like an interesting Web > Development Platform. Could these be combined into a Web framework > talk? Would this be better? I am unfamiliar with either (although I have > done very basic work with Zope 2). I am an absolute newbie in all of these > areas and my comments should be weighted as such. I think comparing Plone to TurboGears is comparing apples to oranges. Plone is a content management system. TurboGears is a Web application framework. Yes, there is some crossover, but they are really very different. I built my church Web site in Plone, and wouldn't want to use TurboGears for that. On the other hand, I don't think you'll ever see a GUI to design workflow in TurboGears. However, TurboGears makes a lot more sense than Plone for doing CRUD with MySQL. It's just a different ball of wax. -jj From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 01:32:07 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:32:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060417100613.00be73b0@localhost> <20060417183705.GA12281@panix.com> Message-ID: On 4/17/06, Donna Snow wrote: > I am more than comfy with either of those dates. > > Yes Plone is a CMS build on Zope. Silva (http://www.infrae.net) is > another CMS built on Zope. I used Silva in 2001..built a couple sites > on it..but haven't touched it since I started working with Plone. > Nothing wrong with Silva.. the front end just wasn't as intuitive as > the Plone version. They may have changed it since. > > I also work with php based cms's like Joomla and Drupal.. it really > depends on the clients needs. Plone can be overkill for basic > brochureware sites that just want the ability to update content. > > Plone isn't on Zope3 yet.. the newly released Plone 2.5 beta requires > Zope 2.9 + Five > (Five is a Zope 2 product that allows you to integrate Zope 3 > technologies into Zope 2, today. It allows you to use all parts of the > Zope 3 component architecture within Zope 2, namely interfaces, > adapters and views. It also re-implements a few features known from > Zope 3, such as the automatic generation of add and edit forms based > on schemas, so that they can be used in a Zope 2 environment.) > > Plone 3.0 should be Zope 3.. but that's not due out for six months. > > Maybe we just have a python related CMS night.. I don't know of any > other ones.. but maybe TurboGears has a CMS built on it's framework? > > I'm extremely flexible so if we opt for a night where we have more > than one discussion of python related cms's..I could most definitely > fill the hour with Plone..as there is more to it that it appears.. on > the outside. Also, I'm not a programmer.. new to Python..but I've been > building on Zope/Plone since 2001.. and am a designer/trainer > comfortable with the system even though I can't program python to save > my life (yet). If you need a programmer to help, I can volunteer, as I feel relatively comfortable with Plone. It might be fun to show off Archetypes for generating forms dynamically. :-/ Of course, that's only if you want help, I'm quite happy to shut up and watch :) -jj From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Apr 21 01:39:44 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think you posted an old one, JJ. So I trimmed it out of here. > > I think it's better to have this stuff on baypiggies.net instead of > emailed around once in a while. I'm sure Aahz could give you access. > Having two people work on the matrix is even better. I was trying to help get the email version straight. I didn't mean to volunteer for web work. I am web ignorant and staying that way for now. Marilyn > > -jj > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 01:46:13 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:46:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I think it's better to have this stuff on baypiggies.net instead of > > emailed around once in a while. I'm sure Aahz could give you access. > > Having two people work on the matrix is even better. > > I was trying to help get the email version straight. I didn't mean to > volunteer for web work. I am web ignorant and staying that way for > now. I'm not going to force you to learn HTML ;) However, a Web site is better than occassional email. If we need to use a wiki, or if I need to write a script, that's fine, but I think a Web page is the way to go. That's just my $0.02. -jj From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 01:48:27 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:48:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/20/06, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > > I think it's better to have this stuff on baypiggies.net instead of > > > emailed around once in a while. I'm sure Aahz could give you access. > > > Having two people work on the matrix is even better. > > > > I was trying to help get the email version straight. I didn't mean to > > volunteer for web work. I am web ignorant and staying that way for > > now. > > I'm not going to force you to learn HTML ;) > > However, a Web site is better than occassional email. If we need to > use a wiki, or if I need to write a script, that's fine, but I think a > Web page is the way to go. > > That's just my $0.02. Since this is BayPiggies, I assume you're quite happy to write Python ;) In that case, give us the content in Python: meeting = { "date": "2006/06/13", "speaker": "Foo Bar", # ... } Then, writing a script will be trivial! :-D Generating the iCal feed will also be easy! -jj From rdm at cfcl.com Fri Apr 21 01:53:47 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:53:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:48 PM -0700 4/20/06, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > meeting = { > "date": "2006/06/13", > "speaker": "Foo Bar", > # ... > } YAML is simpler to write and safer to use: meeting: date: '2006/06/13' speaker: 'Foo Bar' -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 01:56:30 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:56:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/20/06, Rich Morin wrote: > At 4:48 PM -0700 4/20/06, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > meeting = { > > "date": "2006/06/13", > > "speaker": "Foo Bar", > > # ... > > } > > YAML is simpler to write and safer to use: > > meeting: > date: '2006/06/13' > speaker: 'Foo Bar' (humor) Not that I disagree with you, but this isn't a YAML users group! ;) -jj From rdm at cfcl.com Fri Apr 21 02:12:44 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:12:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:56 PM -0700 4/20/06, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Not that I disagree with you, but this isn't a YAML users group! ;) Sorry; I keep forgetting where I am: Language: Perl: "There's More Than One Way To Do It." Python: "There's One Way To Do It." Ruby: "There's A Better Way To Do It." ;-) -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From deirdre at deirdre.net Fri Apr 21 02:24:45 2006 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:24:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 20, 2006, at 4:56 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> YAML is simpler to write and safer to use: >> >> meeting: >> date: '2006/06/13' >> speaker: 'Foo Bar' > > (humor) > Not that I disagree with you, but this isn't a YAML users group! ;) There are YAML bindings for Python. http://pyyaml.org/ Besides, I don't see why Python people wouldn't love YAML: whitespace is significant. :) (I love YAML, but I use it with Ruby) -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net From DennisR at dair.com Fri Apr 21 03:27:52 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:27:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060420180424.00c0fd58@localhost> >JJ> I think it's better to have this stuff on baypiggies.net instead of > > emailed around once in a while. I'm sure Aahz could give you access. > > Having two people work on the matrix is even better. > >MD> I was trying to help get the email version straight. I didn't mean to >volunteer for web work. I am web ignorant and staying that way for >now. I am conversant enough with web work. ... and not at all interested in getting sucked in to doing any more. I am with Marilyn on this -- keep it really simple. Aahz, could I be authorized upload this list as plain text on BayPiggies server? When people access the list, returning a Content-Type of text/plain to browser is good enough. I would prefer a file name of adv_sched.txt in a directory of your choosing where having the .txt extension (as opposed to none) simplifies working with this under Windows. I can guarantee lower case conversion and CR/LF --> LF filtering at my end if you are running Unix. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Apr 21 03:34:06 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Schedule of upcoming events In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > On 4/20/06, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > > > I think it's better to have this stuff on baypiggies.net instead of > > > > emailed around once in a while. I'm sure Aahz could give you access. > > > > Having two people work on the matrix is even better. > > > > > > I was trying to help get the email version straight. I didn't mean to > > > volunteer for web work. I am web ignorant and staying that way for > > > now. > > > > I'm not going to force you to learn HTML ;) > > > > However, a Web site is better than occassional email. If we need to > > use a wiki, or if I need to write a script, that's fine, but I think a > > Web page is the way to go. > > > > That's just my $0.02. > > Since this is BayPiggies, I assume you're quite happy to write Python > ;) In that case, give us the content in Python: > > meeting = { > "date": "2006/06/13", > "speaker": "Foo Bar", > # ... > } > > Then, writing a script will be trivial! :-D Generating the iCal feed > will also be easy! I'm not one to trust with typing tasks. But I made this little script to parse Dennis' format into a python dictionary. From there, your script should be even easier, I hope. --- #!/usr/bin/env python '''bap.py parses an email message to gather meeting schedule information and put it into a dictionary of dictionaries: meeting = {date_tuple:{'Date':'Wed, Apr 26, 2006', 'Location', 'Google (contact: Neil)', ... Call: bap.py < email_message or bap.py file_name The email message should be in the format that Dennis has been using. Leading '>'s are ok. Other stuff in the message is ok, as long as it doesn't start with a meeting attribute. If that's a problem, I can fix it up. Test data looked like: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 03:53 PM 4/20/2006, you wrote: > >Thank you Dennis. Good catch. So we have: > > > > > >Date Wed, Apr 26, 2006 > >Location Google (contact: Neil) > >Working Topic Title Django (Jacob Kaplan-Moss) > >Topic Organizer JJ > >Topic URL(s) > >Mapping/Random Access special meeting/none > >Refreshments > >Dinner TBD > >Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > >-------------------------------- > >Date Thu, May 11, 2006 > >Location Google (contact: Neil) > >Working Topic Title Survey Results/Ctypes > >Topic Organizer Stephen > >Topic URL(s) pending, http://www.spamai.com/present/ > >Mapping/Random Access Dennis > >Refreshments Donna > >Dinner Brian > >Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz > >-------------------------------- > >Date Thu, Jun 8, 2006 it outputs the same format, just to show it is working. ''' import sys import time MEETING_ATTRIBUTES = ('Date', 'Location', 'Working Topic Title', 'Topic Organizer', 'Topic URL(s)', 'Mapping/Random Access', 'Refreshments', 'Dinner', 'Posting (site+c.l.p..)') meeting = {} def gather_data(lines): for line in lines: line = line.strip('> ') if line.startswith('Date'): if line.startswith('Date:'): # header line continue date_key = time.strptime(line[5:].strip(), "%a, %b %d, %Y") meeting[date_key] = {} for each in MEETING_ATTRIBUTES: if line.startswith(each): meeting[date_key][each] = line[len(each):].strip() break def main(args): if len(args) == 1: stream = sys.stdin else: stream = open(args[1]) gather_data(stream.readlines()) report_data() def report_data(): date_keys = meeting.keys() date_keys.sort() for date in date_keys: for detail in MEETING_ATTRIBUTES: try: print "%-26s%s" % (detail, meeting[date][detail]) except KeyError: print detail print "------------------------------------------" if __name__ == '__main__': main(sys.argv) ''' Hope it helps. Marilyn ''' From cappy2112 at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 04:09:37 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:09:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Volunteer needed: Book Review Message-ID: <8249c4ac0604201909g2113b2b2lffadbabc5b73de94@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone want to write a review of Learning the bash Shell, Third Edition? You'll get to keep a copy of the book (brand new!). I don't have time to work on this now, and want to get it done for Oreilly. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bash3/index.html If you are interested, please email me OFF LIST. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060420/baf6c38b/attachment.htm From redefined.horizons at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 00:49:32 2006 From: redefined.horizons at gmail.com (Redefined Horizons) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 15:49:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] An introduction... Message-ID: I have just subscribed to the mailing list, and I wanted to introduce myself to the community. I am a new user of Python, and have recently decided to use the language for my Linux programming. (This was after a few weeks of trying to build a cross-platform Visual Basic .NET application using Mono.) :] I'm also a relatively new user of Linux. I come to Python from a Java, LISP, and Visual Basic programming background. (I'm also learning to dabble with C Programming.) I work for a Land Surveying and Civil Engineering firm in the Central Valley. Most of my interest in Python will be for the development of geospatial applications. I will be working on the following projects in Python over the course of the next few months: *[1]* Python OGD Implementation: The OGD is a open standard for an object-oriented geospatial database that can be shared among open source desktop GIS applications. I hope to build an implementation of the OGD and OpenJUMP-Ex for Linux in Python. You can learn more about the OGD and OpenJUMP-Ex at the SurveyOS website: http://surveyos.sourceforge.net/ *[2]* Python 2SimpleXML Parser and Object-Binding Library: 2SimpleXML is a subset of XML that I came-up with to simplify the use of XML in programming. You can learn more about it here: http://www.bluwiki.org/go/2SimpleXML I am writing a 2SimpleXML Parser and Object-Binding library for 2SimpleXML in Python. *[3]* Python SurveyOS Application Framework Implementation: This will be an implementation of the SurveyOS Application Framework in Python. The framework provides a simple foundation for application development that includes plug-in management, logging, and user management. My work on the Python OGD Implementation will probably be of the most interest to the community. I hope to work on some low-level tools that will parse of DXF files and ESRI Shapefiles, making there content available to Python programs. All of my work is released under open source licenses, and I look forward to working with other Python developers if I can. Scott Huey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060421/3a229f59/attachment.html From dannycolligan at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 07:32:55 2006 From: dannycolligan at gmail.com (Danny Colligan) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:32:55 +0300 Subject: [Baypiggies] An introduction... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <637dfa040604212232h7c4f421bv33e7eb275b0f9a50@mail.gmail.com> I also just subscribed to the mailing list, and I'm jumping on the introduction bandwagon. My name's Danny. I'm a junior at Georgetown University and currently studying abroad in Turkey. I come from a C++/Java background and just picked up the learning python o'reilly book and think that python rules (I do not expect any disagreement from this group). I'm on the other side of the world, so don't expect me at any of the meetings anytime soon, but I get back in June and I'm interning for a Silicon Valley software company close to where I live in the summer. Look forward to meeting everyone, Danny Colligan On 4/22/06, Redefined Horizons wrote: > > I have just subscribed to the mailing list, and I wanted to introduce > myself to the community. I am a new user of Python, and have recently > decided to use the language for my Linux programming. (This was after a few > weeks of trying to build a cross-platform Visual Basic .NET application > using Mono.) :] I'm also a relatively new user of Linux. I come to Python > from a Java, LISP, and Visual Basic programming background. (I'm also > learning to dabble with C Programming.) > > I work for a Land Surveying and Civil Engineering firm in the Central > Valley. Most of my interest in Python will be for the development of > geospatial applications. I will be working on the following projects in > Python over the course of the next few months: > > *[1]* Python OGD Implementation: The OGD is a open standard for an > object-oriented geospatial database that can be shared among open source > desktop GIS applications. I hope to build an implementation of the OGD and > OpenJUMP-Ex for Linux in Python. You can learn more about the OGD and > OpenJUMP-Ex at the SurveyOS website: > http://surveyos.sourceforge.net/ > > *[2]* Python 2SimpleXML Parser and Object-Binding Library: 2SimpleXML is a > subset of XML that I came-up with to simplify the use of XML in programming. > You can learn more about it here: > http://www.bluwiki.org/go/2SimpleXML > I am writing a 2SimpleXML Parser and Object-Binding library for 2SimpleXML > in Python. > > *[3]* Python SurveyOS Application Framework Implementation: This will be > an implementation of the SurveyOS Application Framework in Python. The > framework provides a simple foundation for application development that > includes plug-in management, logging, and user management. > > My work on the Python OGD Implementation will probably be of the most > interest to the community. I hope to work on some low-level tools that > will parse of DXF files and ESRI Shapefiles, making there content available > to Python programs. > > All of my work is released under open source licenses, and I look forward > to working with other Python developers if I can. > > Scott Huey > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060422/16ebe719/attachment.html From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Apr 22 08:18:00 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 23:18:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] An introduction... Message-ID: <20060422061803.3FB941E4006@bag.python.org> Welcome Danny and Scott, Thank you for telling us a little about yourselves and your interests. We are in the midst of taking a survey and a vote. You are welcome to participate: The survey: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 The results will be presented at the next meeting. The vote is on whether or not you think we should change our name: http://jacq.istos.com.au/python or, if you'd rather vote by email: 1. Send a message to: python at deliberate.com 2. Subject must be: Change name? 3. Message must be: eVote n <-- n is 1, 0, or -1 indicating yes, abstain, no end <-- if anything follows Be aware that we can all see each others' votes. Again, welcome! Marilyn Davis From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 24 01:55:34 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 16:55:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies Member Survey 2006! Win prizes! Only 7 days left! Message-ID: ============================================================ 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey ============================================================ Dear BayPIGgies members, * We currently have 45 responses out of 332 total list members. * There are at least 80 more active members who have not responded. * We want >100 responses! We know you're out there reading this :) We need your input to help make the group even better and more relevant to your interests. * Survey will close by Sun 4/30 midnight and results will be tabulated and presented at BayPIGgies Thu 5/11 May meeting at Google, and also on baypiggies list. Please take the survey - it only takes about 15 min max. - you have a 1 in 5 chance of winning a PRIZE (there are at least 9 pledged prizes so far - books, Google gear, O'Reilly swag, other exclusive items to be announced!) If you can't come to 5/11 meeting for the prize draw, we will set your prize aside and make sure you get it. - response rate is pretty good, given that 26% have never attended meetings, and another 35% only attend 0-2 meetings, hence we have a hardcore of ~128 active members (40% of 332), and this seems to be the peak audience size we get at Google. So if each of those 128 would only respond, that would be neat. - the higher the response rate, the more informative and legitimate the data are for use in decision-making ============================================================ 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey URL: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 ============================================================ For statement of purpose, notes on browser compatibility, privacy etc. see the original post: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000400.html What are the objectives of the survey? a) To get a clear picture of the membership (e.g. how many XML people in the East Bay? how many animators? newbies? engineers? do we have undetected clusters of common interests e.g. IronPython? who are the lurkers on the list?) b) To identify relevant meeting topics of most interest to members b2) To identify correlations or clusters of interests on certain topics e.g. newbies tending to be interested in standard packages and how-tos, NB/EB/SF folks interested in animation etc. This will help us target topics to newbie/advanced, geographical locations etc. c) To improve logistics (meeting formats and locations, help line up speakers, improve list or website, enable carpooling etc.) Why should I fill in the survey? - All fully complete surveys received by the deadline (04/30) will be put in a live draw at 5/11 meeting to win PRIZES!! - Help us make the meetings better, more focused and more relevant to YOUR needs! - If you don't want to do the whole thing, please do just fill in the required sections. (You can bookmark it and come back later and add/update your responses.) - Survey last ran in Mar 2003 and got 7 out of 87 responses. It was surprisingly helpful in identifying needs. Acknowledgments: thanks to Wesley, Drew P, Danny Yoo, JJ, Rich Morin, Tony Capp, Dennis, Marilyn Davis, John Dooley, Deirdre, Aahz, Brian Mahoney, Wai Yip and all members, for comments, criticisms and input. Thanks for your participation! Stephen McInerney spmcinerney at hotmail.com ============================================================ 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey URL: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 ============================================================ From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 24 04:26:46 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:26:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] (AGENDA) May 11 Talk Message-ID: Date Thur, May 11, 2006 Location Google (contact: Neil) Working Topic Title CTypes/ Survey Results Topic Organizer Dennis; Stephen Topic URL(s) http://www.spamai.com/present/ Mapping/Random Access Dennis Refreshments Donna Dinner Brian Posting (site+c.l.p..) Aahz Here's my abstract for May 11. Note that Dennis agreed to change the order to go first and I will go second. Then at 8:40 Dennis will moderate Mapping/Random Access. - We have a packed schedule so let's please get out of the Google lobby by 7:15 latest for 7:30 prompt start. - I have no URL and no website. I will make the presentation available to go up on the site within a day or so after. Location: Google Date: May 11 Agenda: ------- 7:30 - 7:50 Topic: CTypes Usage Examples: Direct Windows API (permanent presentations web page: http://www.spamai.com/present/ ... the Ctypes material is not yet posted but this is where it will appear when it is) Speaker: Dennis Reinhardt DAIR Computer Systems (speaker web page http://dair.com) Level: advanced/specialist About: CTypes is an add-on package to be integrated into Python 2.5 release. CTypes provides a light-weight mapping from Python directly to system DLLs, illustrated in this talk by the Windows API. Difficulties encountered in implementation will be mentioned. 7:50 - 8:40 Topic: 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey Results Presenter: Stephen McInerney Level: all About: 2006 Member Survey - data and analysis on: member background, geographical preferences, - what are the meeting topics of most interest, preferred meeting formats - attracting speakers for specific topics. calendaring. - mailing-list, website and meeting logistics - identifying areas where volunteers are needed - identifying what is the top-n list of issues facing the group (Note: absolutely *not* solving those issues, just identifying a list of what they are) - conclusions, trends, action items 7:50 Prize Draw with Anna Ravenscroft, 7:53-8:25 Slide Presentation, 8:25-8:40 Interactive Q&A (We must break at 8:40 sharp but can continue discussion afterwards.) 8:40 - 9:00 Event: Mapping/Random Access Moderator: Dennis Reinhardt Level: open to and accessible by all About: This allows establishment of and follow up on mutual interest(s). Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics the announcer is interested in. Random Access follows immediately to allow everyone to follow up individually on topics announced in which they also have an interest. This is modeled on the format of the legendary Homebrew Computer Club. From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 24 07:27:47 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:27:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto Message-ID: Folks, Several people had suggested a working discussion over dinner. I asked around and Thu 4/27 7pm at Jing Jing Chinese restaurant works, 443 Emerson St, Palo Alto (walkable from Caltrain and Stanford). (This is the day after the Wed Django meeting. TonyC is away from Fri 28th.) Anyone who wants to come, please RSVP to me by Tuesday so I can make the restaurant reservation. I think we have so far: * Definite: Stephen, TonyC, Dennis, probably Drew * No response: Wes?, JJ?, Marilyn?, Rich Morin?, Neal?, Donna?, Brian?, Walter? * Can't: Aahz Possible topics: - what are the most urgent issues facing the group? (there is a big diversity of opinion on what the urgent issues are. but it ain't changing the name!) - how might we get to resolutions from here? what is the group decision-making process? - does the current alternating location setup make sense? (are there any firm alternative proposals? and how do we determine what is best compromise for the entire (active) membership?) - do we need a charter and elections for officers with a fixed-term? - how we manage the agenda setting, webmastering and list admin? (The intent is not to make decisions, but to capture all the points of view.) Regards, Stephen From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 24 07:33:12 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:33:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: RSVP to me *offlist* - people are already grumbling about list traffic volume. From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 20:33:26 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:33:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, I'm going to publicly say that it doesn't make much sense to have a meeting if Wesley and Aahz aren't there :-/ Wesley's probably busy as heck with his book. -jj On 4/23/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > RSVP to me *offlist* - people are already grumbling about list traffic > volume. From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Apr 24 20:55:22 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:55:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060424185522.GA24725@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 24, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > Sorry, I'm going to publicly say that it doesn't make much sense to > have a meeting if Wesley and Aahz aren't there :-/ Wesley's probably > busy as heck with his book. My book keeps me pretty busy, too. ;-) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Apr 24 21:37:26 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:37:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto In-Reply-To: <20060424185522.GA24725@panix.com> Message-ID: My understanding from Aahz was August was the earliest he could make things like this. And I did contact him a couple of times. No-one said Wes couldn't come - he had in fact been in favor of a weekday meetup when we suggested at Apr mtg. Let's let him reply for himself. Who else is in then? Stephen From rbradley at projectway.com Mon Apr 24 23:14:20 2006 From: rbradley at projectway.com (Rand Bradley) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:14:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggested Baypiggies June meeting Message-ID: <3a3f04f50604241414v69984c72l2aee8f4a6163572c@mail.gmail.com> All - I am working on putting together a talk on Python on the Series 60 for the June meeting of the SDForum Emerging Technologies SIG. The talk is not finalized yet, but I am exchanging some emails with someone from Nokia on finding a speaker. (Also, if anyone has a speaker recommendation, let me know). I would like to suggest combining the June Baypiggies and SDForum Emerging Technology events. The EMTECH meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, June 14, 7:00pm at the Cubberley Community Center in Palo Alto. I should be able to get the non-member event fee waived for Baypiggies members. Are the members open to combining the meeting? -- Kind Regards, Rand Bradley PROJECTWAY, LLC Phone: (415) 430-5535 Email: rbradley at projectway.com http://www.projectway.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060424/40511ccc/attachment.htm From DennisR at dair.com Mon Apr 24 23:34:16 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:34:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggested Baypiggies June meeting In-Reply-To: <3a3f04f50604241414v69984c72l2aee8f4a6163572c@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060424142140.00befb00@localhost> At 02:14 PM 4/24/2006, Rand Bradley wrote: >All - I am working on putting together a talk on Python on the Series 60 >for the June meeting of the SDForum Emerging Technologies SIG. The talk is >not finalized yet, but I am exchanging some emails with someone from Nokia >on finding a speaker. (Also, if anyone has a speaker recommendation, let >me know). > >I would like to suggest combining the June Baypiggies and SDForum Emerging >Technology events. The EMTECH meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, June 14, >7:00pm at the Cubberley Community Center in Palo Alto. I should be able to >get the non-member event fee waived for Baypiggies members. Are the >members open to combining the meeting? > >-- > >Kind Regards, > >Rand Bradley >PROJECTWAY, LLC >Phone: (415) 430-5535 >Email: rbradley at projectway.com >http://www.projectway.com We don't have a speaker yet for June and so this is a possibility. Typically our meetings are 7:30 to 9:00 on 2nd Thursday. The half-hour earlier start and Wed. vs. Thur. might affect attendance. I am keeping a planning calendar. I will add your event to it for tracking purposes. It sounds a little early for us to commit to joint meeting. For example, I wonder whether the Nokia contact may come up with content that is not Python related. ... but if a speaker from Nokia does come with Python content, it should be a must attend event (anyway, I am enthusiastic). My contact info is Dennis Reinhardt, (650) 494-7081 more at http://dair.com/contact.php ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From donnamsnow at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 01:06:19 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:06:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] May 11th Meeting - RSVP for Snacks/Refreshments & Help Needed Message-ID: Hi All, Firstly I need to get a feel for how many of us will be attending the May 11th Google meeting so I can plan for snacks/pizza/refreshments. Secondly, I need a couple "helpers" to go to Costco or Albertsons and help purchase some items.. (water, juice, soda, cookies) and then drop them off at my house so I can bring them with me on the 11th. Please email me offlist with your intention to partake of snacks/refreshments.. (will you have pizza or just nibble on cookies/crackers) and will you drink water, juice or soda. Also let me know if you can help. What do you guys feel is a fair amount to contribute to the refreshment/snack fund? Donna M. Snow From DennisR at dair.com Tue Apr 25 02:56:56 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:56:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggested Baypiggies June meeting Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060424174827.00bfce30@localhost> To consolidate meeting planning and offload list traffic, I have posted the planning document I am using on the web. See my sig file for URL. The latest plan now carries Rand's suggestion as an alternative for June. ------------------------------------ | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html | ------------------------------------ From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Tue Apr 25 05:34:41 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:34:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization pushed from 4/27 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Several people couldn't make Thu 4/27 so we will push this dinner meetup to following week. Tony are you back by Thu 5/4? Can you propose a date? 7pm in Jing Jing Palo Alto seems till good. Stephen >From: "Stephen McInerney" >To: baypiggies at python.org >Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm,Jing >Jing, Palo Alto >Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:27:47 -0700 > >Folks, > >Several people had suggested a working discussion over dinner. >I asked around and Thu 4/27 7pm at Jing Jing Chinese restaurant works, >443 Emerson St, Palo Alto (walkable from Caltrain and Stanford). >(This is the day after the Wed Django meeting. TonyC is away from Fri >28th.) > >Anyone who wants to come, please RSVP to me by Tuesday so I can make the >restaurant reservation. > >I think we have so far: >* Definite: Stephen, TonyC, Dennis, probably Drew >* No response: Wes?, JJ?, Marilyn?, Rich Morin?, Neal?, Donna?, Brian?, >Walter? >* Can't: Aahz > >Possible topics: >- what are the most urgent issues facing the group? >(there is a big diversity of opinion on what the urgent issues are. but it >ain't changing the name!) >- how might we get to resolutions from here? what is the group >decision-making process? >- does the current alternating location setup make sense? >(are there any firm alternative proposals? and how do we determine what >is best compromise for the entire (active) membership?) >- do we need a charter and elections for officers with a fixed-term? >- how we manage the agenda setting, webmastering and list admin? > >(The intent is not to make decisions, but to capture all the points of >view.) > >Regards, >Stephen > > >_______________________________________________ >Baypiggies mailing list >Baypiggies at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From marilyn at deliberate.com Tue Apr 25 06:09:30 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Sorry, I'm going to publicly say that it doesn't make much sense to > have a meeting if Wesley and Aahz aren't there :-/ Wesley's probably > busy as heck with his book. Wesley said he was stepping down. Can Wesley please clarify: what were his duties and which of these he is relinquishing? Can we know what are the responsibilities of each person who has accepted responsibility? Are we thinking about making a system where the responsibilities for maintaining the group move in an orderly manner from person to person on a time schedule rather than sit on one person for life? Marilyn > > -jj > > On 4/23/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > > > RSVP to me *offlist* - people are already grumbling about list traffic > > volume. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- From wescpy at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 07:05:52 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:05:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78b3a9580604242205m13b4a4e9w613f15762d73e42a@mail.gmail.com> my roles for baypiggies have been: - organize talks & invite speakers - setup/maintain locations with hosts - buy snacks and collect donations - introduce spakers and time-moderate meetings - update/maintain the website - manage/moderate mailing list (rejecting spam, etc.) - keep meetings going even if there is no topic - collate and hand out swag to speakers - hang/tape up signs at sites to direct folks to meeting room - organize offsite meetings when main site(s) aren't available - manage recruiters who want to "sell their wares" if i can be just a "civilian" for now, that would be best, otherwise i'll try to pick up something that volunteers have not taken off the plate. cheers, -wesley On 4/24/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > > Sorry, I'm going to publicly say that it doesn't make much sense to > > have a meeting if Wesley and Aahz aren't there :-/ Wesley's probably > > busy as heck with his book. > > Wesley said he was stepping down. > > Can Wesley please clarify: what were his duties and which of these he > is relinquishing? > > Can we know what are the responsibilities of each person who has > accepted responsibility? > > Are we thinking about making a system where the responsibilities for > maintaining the group move in an orderly manner from person to person > on a time schedule rather than sit on one person for life? > > Marilyn > > > > > > > -jj > > > > On 4/23/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > > > > > RSVP to me *offlist* - people are already grumbling about list traffic > > > volume. > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From donnamsnow at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 08:14:27 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:14:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ANNC: RSVP Deadline for Refreshments - May 4, 2006 (midnight) Message-ID: Hi All, If you are not going to snack at Google.. then please feel free to delete this email In order to insure we have plenty of refreshments for all who want.. I am hereby setting Thursday, May 4th as the deadline for receipt of RSVP from those who want pizza etc at the May 11th meeting. Cost is $5.00 for 2 slices of pizza, green salad or selection from veggie plate, 1 drink and choice of 2 treats (cookies. brownies, cupcakes, chips or fruit) I will also have extra drinks/snacks for those who do dinner at home or at a restaraunt.. $1 an item.. $1 for drink.. $1 for snack... Couple options for order: 1. you can email me and let me know you want food.. and I'll send you my snail mail so you can send me $5.00 - or drop it off at my house if you are near Westgate Mall) and I'll put you down on the *refreshment* list. You will receive a voucher when you arrive. 2. you can email me and let me know you want food and I'll add you to the refreshment list and you bring $5 to the meeting and I'll give you a voucher (note if you RSVP and can't show up you'll be responsible for that $5 unless I sell your order to someone else- which is possible..so RSVP carefully as I'll be basing food purchases on how many RSVP + a percentage for those who aren't sure if they are going to be able to make it until the last minute. :-)) I still need to know if you are not going to eat pizza but want water, juice, soda and/or a snack (just so I have a base number to work from when I buy snacks). If you RSVP'd and paid (preferably ahead of time) I will give you a "voucher" at the meeting and you can go to the table.. select your stuff.. and drop your voucher in the container.. (could be jar or can.. don't know which yet) so I can keep track of who pays and actually picks up food (this will also help me to figure out how much to order for the next meeting). There may be some months where I'll change out the "main course" and bring KFC or Boston Market.. instead of pizza.. but let's see how the pizza goes and if we can build up the refreshment funding to the point where I can be creative without going broke :-). I will order cheese, pepperoni, sausage, veggie and possibly ham & pineapple as pizza choices.. (unless there is a recommend for another pizza that is generally liked by most people) I will also draw a voucher from the container after each meeting and that person will get a free voucher for the next Google meeting. Please respond to me offlist donnamsnow at gmail.com and let me know if you want refreshments and those who want to pay ahead of time will receive my snail mail so you can send in your order for food/snacks for May 11th. (Those who already responded.. Thank You..I've made note and I'll post an RSVP list beginning of next week so you can check to see if you are on it.. that's it from me on this topic until next Monday!!!) Please respond offlist.. and if you are going to have pizza at Google you should try to arrive by no later than 7:00 so you can get checked in and into the meeting room by 7:15pm to pick up your pizza dinner and get settled in before the speaker gets started at 7:30pm. Thank You for your patience!! Donna M. Snow From mrbmahoney at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 16:48:40 2006 From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 07:48:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner before special Django meeting, Wednesday April 26 Message-ID: <5538c19b0604250748wfec60bdja0c520cea721f158@mail.gmail.com> For tomorrow, Wednesday, April 25, I can coordinate a pre-meeting Baypiggies dinner in Mountain View, before the special BayPIGgies meeting with a Django presentation by Jacob Kaplan-Moss at Google. Start dinner at 6pm and keep things moving so that we finish and get everyone headed towards Google to complete sign-in before the 7:30 meeting start. The restaurant is Cafe Yulong in downtown Mountain View (650) 960-1677 743 W Dana Street, 1/2 block from Castro where Books, Inc is on the corner. Parking lots all around, but downtown Mountain View parking is still difficult. It is a slightly out of the ordinary Chinese restaurant. This link has a downtown map and additional information. http://www.mountainviewca.net/restaurants/cafeyulong.html I've made reservations under "Python" for 6pm Wednesday. If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me by 3 pm Wednesday (earlier is better) so I confirm the headcount. From redefined.horizons at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 18:21:38 2006 From: redefined.horizons at gmail.com (Redefined Horizons) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:21:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGTK Message-ID: It seems like wxPython is the most popular widget platform for Python. I think most of the Python IDEs I've checked out offer wxPython GUI Builders. Is anyone on this list using PyGTK instead? I use GTK in some of my other programming, and would like to stick with it when using Python. I'm also curious as to why it doesn't see as widespread use in Python as wxWidgets. Thanks, Scott Huey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060425/d20eac12/attachment.html From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Apr 25 19:44:38 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:44:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060425174438.GA9122@panix.com> On Mon, Apr 24, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > Can we know what are the responsibilities of each person who has > accepted responsibility? Well, I don't know that I can answer that question as phrased; I don't consider myself as having accepted "responsibility" so much as simply doing things that need done. What I'm doing currently is * Keeping the web site updated (sometimes -- it still hasn't been updated for tomorrow night's meeting because it was down when I had time to do it) * Making formal e-mail/netnews announcements of BayPIGgies meetings * Managing the list * Generally kibitzing The only responsibility I have accepted WRT the first three items is formally informing the list if I stop doing those things and making some minimal good-faith effort to find other people to do these things. Note that I probably can't make the meeting next week, either, because I have a friend flying in for the weekend. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach From DennisR at dair.com Tue Apr 25 19:55:57 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:55:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580604242205m13b4a4e9w613f15762d73e42a@mail.gmail.co m> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060425101539.00c2dab8@localhost> [things which need to be done to allow Wesley to "become a civilian"] >- organize talks & invite speakers >- introduce sp[e]akers ... I am willing to cover this up via planning doc in my sig below. However, I am organizing Topic Organizers, not speakers per se. In cases where there is more than one speaker, I think the topic organizer is in the best position to introduce speakers. To be specific, tomorrow night, I think it falls to JJ to introduce the speaker insofar as he did much of the work in setting up the meeting. If he doesn't want to introduce, it would be his call as the organizer to designate how this is handled. There is no default moderator I am aware of and using the Topic Organizer to moderate the meeting for the night seems to cover the next several meetings. >... and time-moderate meetings I did this at last IronPort meeting. I see the Random Access/Mapping which I would like to moderate as the final event so I serve as an advocate for ending regular program on time. Marilyn has expressed interest in time moderation topics. ... further discussion useful. >- setup/maintain locations with hosts >- organize offsite meetings when main site(s) aren't available >- hang/tape up signs at sites to direct folks to meeting room There are some issues here with no clear owner yet imo. Stephen is calling an organizing meeting and this topic is included, as he has specifically identified "current alternating location setup" as a discussion topic. >- manage recruiters who want to "sell their wares" The last can be done via Mapping/Random Access. I can pick this up. >- update/maintain the website >- manage/moderate mailing list (rejecting spam, etc.) Oh? I thought Aazh had this responsibility/was doing both of these. Donna had volunteered to work on this. But my sense is the job she would do/tools used are enough different that a complete transfer makes more sense than "participation". One way or another, we may be able to cover this. It would be great to see from Aazh what he is doing/wants to continue doing. >- buy snacks and collect donations Donna is starting this up at Google >- keep meetings going even if there is no topic I have a difference of opinion on this one. If we don't have a topic, I don't think we have a meeting. I would want to put my energy into having content in the meeting. If there is no content, then cancel the meeting is my feeling. >- collate and hand out swag to speakers Seems like another possible topic for Stephen's meeting. >if i can be just a "civilian" for now, that would be best, otherwise >i'll try to pick up something that volunteers have not taken off the >plate. This has been an excellent list. Thanks for being explicit. ------------------------------------ | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html | ------------------------------------ From pch at intersight.com Wed Apr 26 02:42:13 2006 From: pch at intersight.com (Paul McGavin) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:42:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] My $3.19 . . . Message-ID: <9b31ab70ed60492069ed4606637e8105@intersight.com> Hello, all. After digesting a few months of the recents posts, I am contributing my my $3.19 cents re: new web site, locations, food and name change. Please, all who have not yet completed the surveys please do so. We need to hear from you. Change is coming. Let it reflect your interests. The survey: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 The results will be presented at the next meeting. The vote is on whether or not you think we should change our name: http://jacq.istos.com.au/python Organization/New Web Site ---------------------------- I think the recent discussions on the list are correct: the organization is run a bit too much by its seat-of-the-pants (and/or skirts). A web site makeover in Plone with multiple contributing editors would centralize communication and spread the load, while still keeping some work flow controls - so people could 'count on' the info that is posted on the web site in a timely manner. We should accept Donna's offer to transfer all content to Zope/Plone as soon as possible. I could help her with this task. Once the site is set up, we can authorize" multiple managing editors, contributing editors and writers. Everyone else could join the site as a member or remain anonymous. Plone is built for this kind of work. Location, Location, Location ------------------------------- To be realistic, San Francisco (instead of IronPort) is probably a better second location for all of us North Bay and East Bay pyCitizens. If Google can sustain 10-12 meetings a year, I say do it, as long as the meetings are videotaped and posted in an easy-to-find location (linked from the BayPiggies site). Sounds like Google could provide this service for us We could use SF for SIG meetings or other topics that cannot make the Google schedule. There is nothing wrong with 10-12 meetings per year at Google on the second Thu. of the month and 6-8 meetings per year in SF on the fourth Thu. of the month. Perhaps Adobe's new SF location (Macromedia's HQ on 600 Townsend St.) could work for us. Food for Thought ----------------- I would prefer food/drinks at the meeting. There is nothing wrong with asking for $5.00 donations at the door *whether or not you partake of the food*. People understand that it takes some money to make the meetings run smoothly. For people driving long distances, pizza and inexpensive bottled water is sufficient and much appreciated. What's Your Name? ------------------ Sounds like this has been tabled at this time, but on 4/13, I offered this alternative to those that seemed interested in a change: On Apr 13, 2006, at 5:01 PM, Paul McGavin wrote: I won't be able to make the meeting tonight, but powered through the last two months of list traffic to digest the name change and future direction issues. I will respond to the surveys, but wanted to have you get reaction from the group to a name that is available as a .com. .net or .org. pybay It worked for ebay, why not for us? I think people realize that ebay was started in the SF Bay area, so we can leverage their million-dollar branding. I know people who live as far away as Gilroy, Tracy, and Santa Rosa that consider themselves in the 'Bay Area' so pybay says it all: Python for those who live in the (greater SF) Bay Area. If people like it, I would be happy to buy the name for the group and host the site on my server in Santa Rosa; I run a Linux/Zope Server that hosts several sites already. Regards, Paul H. McGavin President, InterSight Interactive Insight Network 1001 Bridgeway, Suite 150 Sausalito, CA 94952 Tel 415-382-4040 Fax 415-382-6510 paul.mcgavin at intersight.com www.intersight.com From DennisR at dair.com Wed Apr 26 03:52:35 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 18:52:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] My $3.19 . . . In-Reply-To: <9b31ab70ed60492069ed4606637e8105@intersight.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060425182859.00bf54f0@localhost> At 05:42 PM 4/25/2006, Paul McGavin wrote: >Location, Location, Location >------------------------------- >If Google can sustain 10-12 meetings a year, I say do it, as long as >the meetings are videotaped and posted in an easy-to-find location >(linked from the BayPiggies site). Sounds like Google could provide >this service for us I think 10-12 is very realistic. I heard there is the intention to videotape future technical meetings. Easy-to-find ought to be a non-barrier. >There is nothing wrong with 10-12 meetings per year at >Google on the second Thu. of the month and 6-8 meetings per year in SF >on the fourth Thu. of the month. The 10-12 meetings at Google is sufficiently realistic that I am concerned about growth. There may be times when we have more good topics than will fit in a technical hour once/month. At the Google site, I think future planning should permit more than one meeting per month: 16 meetings/year seems doable (albeit a lot of work). Sometimes, 2nd and 4th week meetings might make sense. This is a future possibility; first order of business is develop a solid every month schedule. Longer meetings (eyes roll) is another possibility to handle growth. For this expansion reason, I would not want to see a SF meeting directly opposed in the month to whatever night Google is scheduled for. A second consideration here is some speakers may desire a larger audience and want to speak at both locations. ... or some topic may be hot and both locations vie for the same speaker. With two week spacing, the meeting getting the same speaker after 2 weeks is getting "old news". An alternate here for consideration is that one site take 2nd Wed and the other site take 2nd Thur. That way, each site can expand/contract as it needs to serve its base without conflict from the other local Python group. Guessing: is subject title $3.19 a reference to cost of gasoline? ------------------------------------ | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html | ------------------------------------ From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Apr 26 05:05:01 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:05:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] REMINDER: BayPIGgies: April 26, 7:30pm (Google) Message-ID: <20060426030501.GA6421@panix.com> NOTE: Special date of WEDNESDAY April 26 at Google, usual time of 7:30pm Please show up by 7:15 so we can start the meeting on time! This does not change the usual May meeting on May 11 at Google; stay tuned for an announcement of that. Special meeting! One of the lead developers of Django is in town! Jacob Kaplan-Moss will be talking about Django at Google. He says he'll be fine-tuning the talk until the last minute but plans to cover: * How Django came into being -- a bit about the Journal-World, the problems that Django was designed to solve, some bits about its evolution, and a glance at how *we* use Django today. * What writing Django apps look -- I'll show off some real code and talk about each of the bits of Django's stack. This'll be the bulk of the talk. * What's in store for the future of Django -- there's some awesome community work going on, as well as some under-the-radar stuff we're working on that I'll try to preview or at least talk about. BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. Advance notice: We have speakers for May. We are currently setting up the schedule for the rest of the year. Please e-mail baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to give a presentation). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach From nnorwitz at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 06:11:44 2006 From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:11:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGTK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/25/06, Redefined Horizons wrote: > > It seems like wxPython is the most popular widget platform for Python. I > think most of the Python IDEs I've checked out offer wxPython GUI Builders. > Is anyone on this list using PyGTK instead? I use GTK in some of my other > programming, and would like to stick with it when using Python. I'm also > curious as to why it doesn't see as widespread use in Python as wxWidgets. I'm not currently using it, but have in the passed. (I've also used wx and Tkinter.) I think gtk is used a fair amount--Glade uses gtk. n From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 08:16:15 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:16:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGTK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/25/06, Redefined Horizons wrote: > It seems like wxPython is the most popular widget platform for Python. I > think most of the Python IDEs I've checked out offer wxPython GUI Builders. > Is anyone on this list using PyGTK instead? I use GTK in some of my other > programming, and would like to stick with it when using Python. I'm also > curious as to why it doesn't see as widespread use in Python as wxWidgets. wxPython probably does a better job at being cross platform than PyGTK. I have used PyGTK in the past, mainly because I wanted a native-looking GNOME application. I gave a talk on it in December. See . If you want a trivial example project to get you started, just ask, and I'll send you one that I wrote. By the way, if you're going to use wxPython, I've heard that PythonCard takes a lot of the pain out of using wxPython. Best Regards, -jj From wescpy at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 12:31:50 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 03:31:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGTK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78b3a9580604260331h578d043bl7137881e9f1fd5cb@mail.gmail.com> >By the way, if you're going to use wxPython, I've heard that > PythonCard takes a lot of the pain out of using wxPython. has anyone used Boa Constructor *and* PythonCard? how do they compare? cheers, -wesley From marilyn at deliberate.com Wed Apr 26 18:36:00 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:36:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto Message-ID: <20060426163603.DAD861E4024@bag.python.org> Thank you Aahz and Wes for listing your contributions. And thank you for doing them! I'm remembering this message from JJ: > Sorry, I'm going to publicly say that it doesn't make much sense to > have a meeting if Wesley and Aahz aren't there :-/ Wesley's probably > busy as heck with his book. > > -jj What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making". How has that been happening so far? I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding". What is binding? I find it uncomfortable for a big volunteer group to be in a position where they can't make a decision unless a specific 2 people are involved, specially when both are too busy writing books and having babies to participate. Are we simply stuck? If we find a way to unstick ourselves, I hope that we make some schedule where we rotate the duties, that no one holds a position of power and visibility for longer than a year or two. "Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or a programming language, but not for a big volunteer group. Volunteer groups thrive on democracy. Is "democracy" a forgotten art? ----- On Tuesday, April 25, 2006 DennisR at dair.com wrote: > [things which need to be done to allow Wesley to "become a civilian"] > >>- organize talks & invite speakers >>- introduce sp[e]akers ... > > I am willing to cover this up via planning doc in my sig below. However, I > am organizing Topic Organizers, not speakers per se. In cases where there > is more than one speaker, I think the topic organizer is in the best > position to introduce speakers. > > To be specific, tomorrow night, I think it falls to JJ to introduce the > speaker insofar as he did much of the work in setting up the meeting. If > he doesn't want to introduce, it would be his call as the organizer to > designate how this is handled. > > There is no default moderator I am aware of and using the Topic Organizer > to moderate the meeting for the night seems to cover the next several meetings. > >>... and time-moderate meetings > > I did this at last IronPort meeting. I see the Random Access/Mapping which > I would like to moderate as the final event so I serve as an advocate for > ending regular program on time. Marilyn has expressed interest in time > moderation topics. ... further discussion useful. 'Time moderation topics'? I expressed interest in starting the meetings on time and will help with that if there is interest. If the "topic organizer" runs the meeting, it will be late or not. My dad used to say "I waste more time by being on time". I think it is important to not waste the time of punctual people and I see no problem with late people missing something. It seems the totally polite solution. I am not attached to being the person who starts the meeting on time, but will do it if called on, for no more than a year or two. > >>- setup/maintain locations with hosts >>- organize offsite meetings when main site(s) aren't available >>- hang/tape up signs at sites to direct folks to meeting room If there is a meeting-starter position, this sign duty should go along with it. > > There are some issues here with no clear owner yet imo. Stephen is calling > an organizing meeting and this topic is included, as he has specifically > identified "current alternating location setup" as a discussion topic. > >>- manage recruiters who want to "sell their wares" > > The last can be done via Mapping/Random Access. I can pick this up. > >>- update/maintain the website >>- manage/moderate mailing list (rejecting spam, etc.) > > Oh? I thought Aazh had this responsibility/was doing both of these. Donna > had volunteered to work on this. But my sense is the job she would > do/tools used are enough different that a complete transfer makes more > sense than "participation". One way or another, we may be able to cover this. > > It would be great to see from Aazh what he is doing/wants to continue doing. > >>- buy snacks and collect donations > > Donna is starting this up at Google > >>- keep meetings going even if there is no topic > > I have a difference of opinion on this one. If we don't have a topic, I > don't think we have a meeting. I would want to put my energy into having > content in the meeting. If there is no content, then cancel the meeting is > my feeling. I totally agree with you, Dennis. It is no fun to drive yourself to a meeting and discover that there is no content. And, thank you for all you are doing for the group. I am intrigued by Paul Gavin's generous offer: > If people like it, I would be happy to buy the name for the group and > host the site on my server in Santa Rosa; I run a Linux/Zope Server > that hosts several sites already. Do I remember that Dennis asked for the power to upload his working schedule to the web site? That didn't happen? And that's why he's using his company web space? Maybe I got that all wrong? I think it would be cool to have an alternate web space with the name pybay.xxx. Short and sweet. Maybe Dennis could upload his document there? Maybe the baypiggies site could be echoed there. Good luck to us! Marilyn > >>- collate and hand out swag to speakers > > Seems like another possible topic for Stephen's meeting. > >>if i can be just a "civilian" for now, that would be best, otherwise >>i'll try to pick up something that volunteers have not taken off the >>plate. > > This has been an excellent list. Thanks for being explicit. > ------------------------------------ > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html | > ------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From marilyn at deliberate.com Wed Apr 26 18:49:16 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] To Paul at intersight.com Message-ID: Paul, Your mail system thinks that eVote is attacking it? So, your vote receipt and requests for information couldn't get to you. This is not a good spam device. NO spam comes from here. Thanks for your participation! Marilyn -- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:44:46 -0700 From: Mail Delivery System To: python-eVote at deliberate.com Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender This message was created automatically by mail delivery software. A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. 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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-105.7 required=2.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,NO_REAL_NAME,USER_IN_WHITELIST, USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Tue Jul 1 11:50:05 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes -- pch at intersight.com's last eVote participation: Tue Apr 25 16:44:40 2006 On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:41:20 -0700 marilyn at deliberate.com attached a poll to this subject: Change name? ==== ==== POLL TEXT ==== ==== Do you think the name of the BayPIGies group should be changed? ======= == === RESULTS SO FAR ======= == === The 312 participants of the python list are asked to vote from -1 to 1. 42 subscribers to the python list have voted so far. 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Your message should say: eVote help who to learn details about the WHO command. If your message says: eVote how Charlie at somewhere.com you will receive a message reporting Charlie's vote. To see your own vote, the current vote tally, and this information again, send the command: eVote info For a general explanation of eVote/Majordomo, use any subject line, and send the message: eVote help ================ START OF MESSAGE RECEIVED =================== >From pch at intersight.com Tue Apr 25 16:44:45 2006 Received: from [203.32.29.23] (helo=secure.istos.com.au ident=root) by deliberate.com with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1FYXD0-0003Cs-HQ for python at deliberate.com; Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:44:44 -0700 Received: (from web at localhost) by secure.istos.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) id k3PNiEn25474; Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:44:14 +1000 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:44:14 +1000 Message-Id: <200604252344.k3PNiEn25474 at secure.istos.com.au> From: pch at intersight.com To: python at deliberate.com Sender_IP: 24.5.151.207 Sender_Port: 62104 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: pch at intersight.com Subject: Change name? X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-105.2 required=2.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME,USER_IN_WHITELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Tue Jul 1 11:50:05 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes eVote info ===================== END OF MESSAGE ======================= Clerk 2.52b3 Ser.No. 1 From ari at lib.aero Wed Apr 26 23:49:06 2006 From: ari at lib.aero (Ari Krupnik) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:49:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Threading question Message-ID: <86hd4ggg8d.fsf@deb.lib.aero> I find myself writing these two lines all the time: t=myThread() t.start() Is there any reason to not call start() from the constructor? Ari. -- Elections only count as free and trials as fair if you can lose money betting on the outcome. From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 27 00:25:02 2006 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Threading question In-Reply-To: <86hd4ggg8d.fsf@deb.lib.aero> References: <86hd4ggg8d.fsf@deb.lib.aero> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Ari Krupnik wrote: > I find myself writing these two lines all the time: > > t=myThread() > t.start() > > Is there any reason to not call start() from the constructor? It depends. In the example above, things should work find if we go directly and say: myThread().start() But do we want to be able to say t.wait() later on? If so, we'll need to keep a name to the constructed thread, or else we won't have a way of sending additional messages to that thread. Best of wishes! From jjinux at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 00:37:16 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:37:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Threading question In-Reply-To: References: <86hd4ggg8d.fsf@deb.lib.aero> Message-ID: On 4/26/06, Danny Yoo wrote: > > > On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Ari Krupnik wrote: > > > I find myself writing these two lines all the time: > > > > t=myThread() > > t.start() > > > > Is there any reason to not call start() from the constructor? > > It depends. In the example above, things should work find if we go > directly and say: > > myThread().start() > > But do we want to be able to say t.wait() later on? If so, we'll need to > keep a name to the constructed thread, or else we won't have a way of > sending additional messages to that thread. If it makes you happy, write a function like: def construct_and_run(*args, **kargs): thread = construct_it(*args, **kargs) thread.start() return thread my_thread = construct_and_run(...) However, be forewarned that the thread might do quite a bit of stuff before construct_and_run returns and before my_thread gets set. That is, it's a race condition. Happy Hacking! -jj From epalmore at pixar.com Thu Apr 27 02:23:45 2006 From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 17:23:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] 3 New Job Openings @ Pixar Animation Studios! Message-ID: About Pixar Animation Studios: Pixar Animation Studios combines creative and technical artistry to create original stories in the medium of computer animation. Pixar has created six of the most successful and beloved animated films of all time: Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc., Finding Nemo and The Incredibles. Pixar has won 18 Academy Awards? and its six films have grossed more than $3.2 billion at the worldwide box office to date. The Northern California studio will release its next film, Cars, on June 9, 2006. JOIN OUR TEAM! 1) Software Engineer Development in Test Studio Tools Summary of Job: We are seeking an experienced QA Engineer with a passion for quality to participate in the software quality assurance efforts for our proprietary in house toolset. This position requires close collaboration with the engineering staff to define, develop, execute, and automate API level test plans and test cases. Identify and communicate a strategy for API and other testing methodologies, review and report on test progress, status, and coverage, and meet test completion and delivery milestones that you help define. Work closely with development, project management and documentation to coordinate testing responsibilities. Responsibilities: ? Develop and execute an API testing strategy, using API testing methodology and programming language knowledge ? Develop and implement API tests ? Contribute to setting and evaluating milestone criteria such that product is released on schedule with high quality ? Design and implement quality processes for a small team of senior software developers ? Work closely with the core development teams during all phases of the product life cycle ? Evaluate completeness and effectiveness of developer's unit tests Qualifications: ? 5+ years of experience in QA or software development ? Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or equivalent ? 3+ years of experience testing APIs and complex data structures ? Excellent design and coding skills ( C/C++ or and a scripting language such as Python or Perl) ? Knowledge of QA methodology, processes, and tools ? Direct experience testing software under Unix (e.g., Linux or OSX) ? Cross platform development experience is preferred (Macintosh, Linux) ? Experience with 3D graphics applications is a plus 2) Software Engineer (Computer Graphics) Studio Tools Summary of Position: This is a software engineering position in the Studio Tools Department to help support the existing deployments of Pixar's in- house movie production software. The primary responsibility of this position is to maintain and fix bugs in our proprietary system. This is a front line position that requires collaboration with our engineering staff, project managers, and production users to maintain mission critical software. Responsibilities: ? Primarily responsible for the maintenance and support of software and/or systems under the guidance of a departmental project lead. ? Works directly with production staff to solve technical challenges and debug high priority issues. ? Detailed problem analysis and resolution of issues. ? Triage incoming issues and provide rapid response/resolution. Qualifications ? Strong software engineering skills with expertise in C and C++ ? B.S. degree in computer science, advanced degree preferred. ? 5-7 years of experience in the computer graphics field. ? OpenGL experience preferred. ? Strong 3D math and computer graphics experience ? Linux or UNIX Operating System experience. ? Excellence in problem solving and balancing quick turnaround with long-term quality. ? Must be able to work well with a wide range of personality types. ? Must be detail oriented and organized, possess strong communication skills, and be able to handle a variety of tasks in an efficient manner. ? Excellent tracking and follow through ability ? Desire to provide excellent customer-service to production staff 3) QA Engineer (3D Graphic Application) Studio Tools Summary of Job: The Production Engineering QA Team is looking for a Quality Assurance Engineer to participate in our software quality assurance efforts. This position requires close collaboration with the engineering and production staff to test Pixar?s proprietary in house toolset. In this position you will write, execute, and automate black box level test plans and test cases. Other responsibilities include reporting on test progress, status, and coverage, as well as meeting test completion and delivery milestones that you help define. Responsibilities: ? Develop and execute test plans and test cases. ? Contribute to setting and evaluating milestone criteria such that product is released on schedule with high quality. ? Design and implement quality processes for a small team of senior software developers. ? Work closely with the core development teams during all phases of the product life cycle. ? Continually research new technologies and incorporate that new knowledge into your ongoing QA process. Qualifications: ? 3+ years of experience in QA ? Experience with 3D graphics applications (i.e., Maya, SOFTIMAGE, 3D Studio Max) ? Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or equivalent ? Knowledge of QA methodology, processes, and tools ? Cross platform testing experience (Macintosh, Linux) Pixar Animation Studios Emeryville, CA Full - Time (Sorry, new visa sponsorship is not available. Must be currently authorized to work in the US) TO APPLY please go to www.pixar.com. Click on "Company Info" then "Jobs." Or send your resume AND cover letter to epalmore at pixar.com Pixar is an Equal Opportunity Employer From kelly at nttmcl.com Thu Apr 27 04:12:40 2006 From: kelly at nttmcl.com (Kelly Yancey) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Threading question In-Reply-To: <86hd4ggg8d.fsf@deb.lib.aero> References: <86hd4ggg8d.fsf@deb.lib.aero> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Ari Krupnik wrote: > I find myself writing these two lines all the time: > > t=myThread() > t.start() > > Is there any reason to not call start() from the constructor? > > Ari. > > If you want to t.setDaemon(), you need to do it before start(). Kelly From kelly at nttmcl.com Thu Apr 27 04:08:38 2006 From: kelly at nttmcl.com (Kelly Yancey) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGTK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > On 4/25/06, Redefined Horizons wrote: >> It seems like wxPython is the most popular widget platform for Python. I >> think most of the Python IDEs I've checked out offer wxPython GUI Builders. >> Is anyone on this list using PyGTK instead? I use GTK in some of my other >> programming, and would like to stick with it when using Python. I'm also >> curious as to why it doesn't see as widespread use in Python as wxWidgets. > > wxPython probably does a better job at being cross platform than > PyGTK. I have used PyGTK in the past, mainly because I wanted a > native-looking GNOME application. I gave a talk on it in December. > See . If you want a trivial example > project to get you started, just ask, and I'll send you one that I > wrote. By the way, if you're going to use wxPython, I've heard that > PythonCard takes a lot of the pain out of using wxPython. > > Best Regards, > -jj Hi, JJ :) Let me preface this with a disclaimer that I only played with PythonCard for a short time while evaluating libraries for use developing a shrink-wrapped python-based application for Windows. I'm sure a long-term PythonCard user (are there any?) can point out how PythonCard can take "a lot" of pain out of wxPython, but I just couldn't find it. I found PythonCard to be little more than a framework re-inventing wxWidgets' XRC resource files, an editor for their re-invented XRC file format, a couple of extra widgets, plus some debugging aids like pyCrust thrown in. From the PythonCard docs themselves: The primary ways that PythonCard simplifies the GUI development process are that it standardises event and attribute names, automatically binds event handlers (where present) to your components and separates program logic from application presentation. Each of these may seem like a restriction but allows the developer to focus on the important parts of their applications - the layout of the graphical interface and the application logic - without having to master a complex windowing toolkit. The separation of the presentation (in a resource file) and the application logic (in a Python module) in particular provide a much simpler application structure for the developer. And simplicity is what PythonCard is all about. Having the presentation aspects of the application in their own file enables the use of tools like the resourceEditor. The new user of PythonCard doesn't need to know anything about the format of the resource file, they can use a graphical tool to layout their application and it will generate the resource file for them. Of course this doesn't mean that you have to use the resourceEditor, the resource file is a text file containing a Python dictionary and can just as well be written in the text editor of your choice. Yeah, that's what wxWidget's XRC files already get you (although XRC is XML rather than PythonCard's text representations of python dictionaries). PythonCard includes a graphical resource file editor, but it wasn't appreciably better than any of the multitude of XRC editors out there. I wouldn't say any of the XRC editors are at the ease-of-use level most beginners would expect, but I've been pretty happy with an inexpensive commercial product called DialogBlocks. So, for a beginner, the difference between wxPython (using XRC resource files) and PythonCard isn't particularly notable. I only wanted to point that out because I keep seeing the claim the PythonCard is "a lot" easier than wxPython. And when you compare apples to oranges, i.e. resource-based GUI layouts to hard-coded wxPython API calls, it is easier. But if you compare apples to apples, PythonCard and wxPython's XRC support, the differences are minor. Anyway, that was experience; take it at a value no more than what you paid to hear it. :) Kelly From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Thu Apr 27 08:20:41 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:20:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Summary of Python in Electronic Design Automation (EDA) Message-ID: Here is a summary for anyone who is interested in Python in Electronic Design Automation (EDA): As it happens three separate people today independently asked me about the exact same topic. So I am writing this because I know for a fact there has been a small cluster of EDA people who periodically attend BayPIGgies for at least 2 years, but it seems to ebb and flow without ever acquiring critical mass. I have been trying to round up enough heads for a "Python in EDA" evening for a few years now. EDA is unfortunately historically dominated by legacy proprietary languages (Cadence SKILL (a LISP derivative), Synopsys dc-shell, etc.). Tcl has emerged within the last 8 years to an extent as the de facto scripting and automation standard, as endorsed by many EDA vendors. (Believe it or not, that's a huge advance on what went before). Essentially, EDA scripting as written by EE's (as opposed to the EDA software itself, which is written by CS guys) lags best practices in software (revision control, testing, object-orienting, reuse) by about 25 years typically. This is a pet topic of mine and believe me I can show you plenty metrics to prove that (see also ISQED conference). There is no single area of application for Python in EDA but there are several open areas which are not dominated by any legacy. Python also goes head-to-head with PERL since PERL is an EE's de facto scripting language of choice, historically anyway. So writing an imperative style with heavy use of regexes and eschewing OO is kind of an unfortunate straitjacket requirement, in order that your colleagues can understand and maintain your code. These are the main current areas where Python is used in EDA: - Python for small tasks, netlist transformations, buffer insertion, transistor compaction - Python in testing, builds, automation, job control, webserver logging of results - interfacing to the emergent OpenAccess standard for a silicon design database with an open API (in C++): (http://www.si2.org/?page=69) - interfacing to or wrapperising C++ APIs or revision control - small GUIs (usually Tkinter) - mod_python, mod_perl, Ruby and PHP for internal websites (e.g. regression results) - Jan Decaluwe even proposed PyHDL: Python as a design language (HDL): (http://www.eet.com/news/design/technology/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=177101584) although that is very uncommon - Verilog(& SystemVerilog) dominate, followed by VHDL. Here is a list of former or current BayPIGgies with an interest in Python in EDA, based on my personal interactions. Apologies if I get anyone wrong or omitted: Stephen McInerney (Sun Microsystems, Magma, Transmeta) Dennis Reinhardt (DAIR Computer Systems, former chair of HotChips conference and IEEE chapter head) Peter Simanyi (Cadence) Jan Decaluwe (Mephisto Design Automation (MDA), PyHDL, eAsics) Tim Burks John Ivie Andrew Lentvorski And here is a list of EDA companies known to at least partially use Python: Synopsys www.synopsys.com (mainly for testing only) Magma Design Automation www.magma-da.com (only for some testing and automation) Pyxis http://www.pyxistech.com/ Tabula Software various other OpenAccess partners (mostly small startups) (A couple of folks had suggested it might be neat to add links pages from baypiggies.net to Pythonic companies broken out by sector. That is a good idea for the future.) Hope this is useful for people who are interested, Stephen From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Apr 27 11:57:25 2006 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 02:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Talk about Django on Google Video? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It was mentioned that the meeting last night would be videotaped and put on Google Video. URL? Thanks. From aleax at google.com Thu Apr 27 19:04:12 2006 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:04:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Talk about Django on Google Video? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55dc209b0604271004j277ea896n8c75d3134703d3e5@mail.google.com> On 4/27/06, Mike Cheponis wrote: > It was mentioned that the meeting last night would be videotaped and put on Google Video. > > URL? I believe my worthy googleEdu colleagues will take a few days to edit and prepare the video before putting it online -- I'll be glad to post a URL when I do find out about it. Alex From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Thu Apr 27 22:05:22 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:05:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies Member Survey 2006! Closes in 4 days! Make your voice heard Message-ID: ============================================================ 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey URL: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 ============================================================ Please take a moment to fill in the survey. It will close Sunday 4/30 at midnight. Only 4 days left. - we have 75 responses right now. Help us to reach the magic 100? - we are up to 15 prizes due to kind contributions from several people (if you can't attend on May 11, you're still entered for the prize draw) - for results, analysis and discussion, please come along to May 11 Google meeting - we need YOUR response to make the survey representative and relevant to your interests. - speaking out via the survey also protects the list from volume on well-trafficked topics. Full details at: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000631.html Thank you, Stephen ============================================================ 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey URL: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 ============================================================ From kenobi at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 22:37:34 2006 From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:37:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Summary of Python in Electronic Design Automation (EDA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm.... interesting. On 4/26/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > Here is a summary for anyone who is interested in Python in Electronic > Design Automation (EDA): (...snip...) > EDA is unfortunately historically dominated by legacy proprietary languages > (Cadence SKILL (a LISP derivative), Synopsys dc-shell, etc.). > Tcl has emerged within the last 8 years to an extent as the de facto > scripting and automation > standard, as endorsed by many EDA vendors. (Believe it or not, that's a huge > advance on what went before). That's logical. Tcl was invented by John Ousterhout, who was famous for VLSI design tools at Berkeley, upon which a lot of industry tools were based. Fabulous extensibility compared to anything else around at the time. (And then later came Python. :-) > Essentially, EDA scripting as written by EE's (as opposed to the EDA > software itself, which is written by CS guys) lags best practices in > software (revision control, testing, object-orienting, reuse) by about 25 > years typically. This is a pet topic of mine and believe me I can show you > plenty metrics to prove that (see also ISQED conference). > > There is no single area of application for Python in EDA but there are > several open areas which are not dominated by any legacy. Python also goes > head-to-head with PERL since PERL is an EE's de facto scripting language of > choice, historically anyway. So writing an imperative style with heavy use > of regexes and eschewing OO is kind of an unfortunate straitjacket > requirement, in order that your colleagues can understand and maintain your > code. > These are the main current areas where Python is used in EDA: > > - Python for small tasks, netlist transformations, buffer insertion, > transistor compaction > - Python in testing, builds, automation, job control, webserver logging of > results > - interfacing to the emergent OpenAccess standard for a silicon design > database with an open API (in C++): (http://www.si2.org/?page=69) > - interfacing to or wrapperising C++ APIs or revision control > - small GUIs (usually Tkinter) > - mod_python, mod_perl, Ruby and PHP for internal websites (e.g. regression > results) > - Jan Decaluwe even proposed PyHDL: Python as a design language (HDL): > (http://www.eet.com/news/design/technology/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=177101584) > although that is very uncommon - Verilog(& SystemVerilog) dominate, followed > by VHDL. > > Here is a list of former or current BayPIGgies with an interest in Python in > EDA, > based on my personal interactions. Apologies if I get anyone wrong or > omitted: > > Stephen McInerney (Sun Microsystems, Magma, Transmeta) > Dennis Reinhardt (DAIR Computer Systems, former chair of HotChips conference > and IEEE chapter head) > Peter Simanyi (Cadence) > Jan Decaluwe (Mephisto Design Automation (MDA), PyHDL, eAsics) > Tim Burks > John Ivie > Andrew Lentvorski I did CAD support overseas for Acer Labs' ASIC Division when they first started in 1987. Also did a small amount of Perl hacking for cell layout for a shop that has now disappeared into legend. > And here is a list of EDA companies known to at least partially use Python: > Synopsys www.synopsys.com (mainly for testing only) > Magma Design Automation www.magma-da.com (only for some testing and > automation) > Pyxis http://www.pyxistech.com/ > Tabula Software > various other OpenAccess partners (mostly small startups) > > (A couple of folks had suggested it might be neat to add links pages from > baypiggies.net to > Pythonic companies broken out by sector. That is a good idea for the > future.) > > Hope this is useful for people who are interested, > Stephen Although I haven't done much in EDA in many years, I will attend a "Python in EDA" evening. It seems like the right way for that industry to go. And speaking of industry segments, I'd be interested in hearing from people using Python in aerospace. I use Python for other things (web hackery, database interface, etc.), but I talk regularly with lots of aerospace folks, and am plugged into one technical committee. The major languages I see in use are: C/C++, Java, Matlab, and a bunch of legacy Fortran. It seems to be there is immense unexploited opportunity for Python there, but the people need some education. --Rick Kwan (kenobi at gmail.com) Associate Fellow, American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) chair (until end of May), AIAA San Francisco Section member, AIAA Computer Systems Technical Committee From donnamsnow at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 23:04:59 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:04:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Summary of Python in Electronic Design Automation (EDA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting that you mention Magma Design Automation.. I worked for them from June 2004 to November 2004 .. (temporary replacing their webmaster who was on an extended vacation over the summer). Their cms at the time was Cuesta Technologies - Web-n-Able - tcl based. I believe they still use Cuesta for the main site.. Plone for intranet. I helped them to convert their intranet (which was a static html site updated through Dreamweaver) to a Plone environment. Not sure if they are still using it because I'm not connected anymore.. but they had quite a Zope setup (zeo cluster) and had written Salesforce API's in Python... for their sales team. BTW.. having used a tcl based content management system was quite interesting but much less featureful than any other one I've used.. could have improved in the last couple of years..but after 3 years (at that point) of using Plone .. it felt like a step backwards. Just my input as I worked there as a consultant for awhile and saw first hand what they use in house.. things coulda changed since then. Donna M. Snow C Squared Technologies technology at the speed of innovation http://www.csquaredtech.com <--- coming back soon! On 4/27/06, Rick Kwan wrote: > Hmmm.... interesting. > > On 4/26/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > Here is a summary for anyone who is interested in Python in Electronic > > Design Automation (EDA): > > (...snip...) > > > EDA is unfortunately historically dominated by legacy proprietary languages > > (Cadence SKILL (a LISP derivative), Synopsys dc-shell, etc.). > > Tcl has emerged within the last 8 years to an extent as the de facto > > scripting and automation > > standard, as endorsed by many EDA vendors. (Believe it or not, that's a huge > > advance on what went before). > > That's logical. Tcl was invented by John Ousterhout, who was famous > for VLSI design tools at Berkeley, upon which a lot of industry tools > were based. Fabulous extensibility compared to anything else around > at the time. (And then later came Python. :-) > > > Essentially, EDA scripting as written by EE's (as opposed to the EDA > > software itself, which is written by CS guys) lags best practices in > > software (revision control, testing, object-orienting, reuse) by about 25 > > years typically. This is a pet topic of mine and believe me I can show you > > plenty metrics to prove that (see also ISQED conference). > > > > There is no single area of application for Python in EDA but there are > > several open areas which are not dominated by any legacy. Python also goes > > head-to-head with PERL since PERL is an EE's de facto scripting language of > > choice, historically anyway. So writing an imperative style with heavy use > > of regexes and eschewing OO is kind of an unfortunate straitjacket > > requirement, in order that your colleagues can understand and maintain your > > code. > > These are the main current areas where Python is used in EDA: > > > > - Python for small tasks, netlist transformations, buffer insertion, > > transistor compaction > > - Python in testing, builds, automation, job control, webserver logging of > > results > > - interfacing to the emergent OpenAccess standard for a silicon design > > database with an open API (in C++): (http://www.si2.org/?page=69) > > - interfacing to or wrapperising C++ APIs or revision control > > - small GUIs (usually Tkinter) > > - mod_python, mod_perl, Ruby and PHP for internal websites (e.g. regression > > results) > > - Jan Decaluwe even proposed PyHDL: Python as a design language (HDL): > > (http://www.eet.com/news/design/technology/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=177101584) > > although that is very uncommon - Verilog(& SystemVerilog) dominate, followed > > by VHDL. > > > > Here is a list of former or current BayPIGgies with an interest in Python in > > EDA, > > based on my personal interactions. Apologies if I get anyone wrong or > > omitted: > > > > Stephen McInerney (Sun Microsystems, Magma, Transmeta) > > Dennis Reinhardt (DAIR Computer Systems, former chair of HotChips conference > > and IEEE chapter head) > > Peter Simanyi (Cadence) > > Jan Decaluwe (Mephisto Design Automation (MDA), PyHDL, eAsics) > > Tim Burks > > John Ivie > > Andrew Lentvorski > > I did CAD support overseas for Acer Labs' ASIC Division when they > first started in 1987. > Also did a small amount of Perl hacking for cell layout for a shop > that has now disappeared into legend. > > > And here is a list of EDA companies known to at least partially use Python: > > Synopsys www.synopsys.com (mainly for testing only) > > Magma Design Automation www.magma-da.com (only for some testing and > > automation) > > Pyxis http://www.pyxistech.com/ > > Tabula Software > > various other OpenAccess partners (mostly small startups) > > > > (A couple of folks had suggested it might be neat to add links pages from > > baypiggies.net to > > Pythonic companies broken out by sector. That is a good idea for the > > future.) > > > > Hope this is useful for people who are interested, > > Stephen > > Although I haven't done much in EDA in many years, I will attend a > "Python in EDA" evening. It seems like the right way for that > industry to go. > > And speaking of industry segments, I'd be interested in hearing from > people using Python in aerospace. I use Python for other things (web > hackery, database interface, etc.), but I talk regularly with lots of > aerospace folks, and am plugged into one technical committee. The > major languages I see in use are: C/C++, Java, Matlab, and a bunch of > legacy Fortran. It seems to be there is immense unexploited > opportunity for Python there, but the people need some education. > > --Rick Kwan (kenobi at gmail.com) > Associate Fellow, American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) > chair (until end of May), AIAA San Francisco Section > member, AIAA Computer Systems Technical Committee > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From annaraven at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 00:35:50 2006 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:35:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies Member Survey 2006! Closes in 4 days! Make your voice heard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/27/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > ============================================================ > 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey URL: > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 > ============================================================ > > Please take a moment to fill in the survey. It will close Sunday 4/30 at > midnight. > Only 4 days left. The survey requires a response for each and every question or it won't let you go to the next screen. "I don't know" or "Not applicable" isn't given as an option. I quit out of the survey on the 3rd or 4th page (the really long one) because of that and won't be completing the survey. Too bad. -- cordially, Anna -- It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar! From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 01:58:09 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:58:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies Member Survey 2006! Closes in 4 days! Make your voic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Anna, Actually it doesn't, I designed it and tested very carefully before launching to ensure that is not the case. The survey can be completed within 15min. (Questions marked (Optional) are optional: #3, 10, 11, 15, 20, 21, 22) I think you mean that *within a compulsory question* (such as the massive question #14 'Interests'), all items must be checked, and yes that is an unfortunate limitation of SurveyMonkey.com. I agree that it would be useful if you could simply check what you're interested in, but SM won't allow it. I looked at alternative survey sites and all were inferior to SurveyMonkey.com. Now that we have established what topics are of interest, we can refine any future survey to be more concise. The rightmost column in most questions is equivalent to "Not at all"/ "I don't know" or "Not applicable", please talk to me offline about that. This is the best I could do for the structure of the 2006 survey, for 2007 anyone who has strong feelings on the survey content/structure/JavaScript/browser support is very welcome to design and propose an alternative, in 2007. I had to work under very pressing time constraints that if someone did not take some urgent action like this soon, the group might continue to lose cohesion and eventually splinter or implode. The list itself is not a very efficient place to conduct polls or discussions of member opinions on organization - many complaints about that. For 2006, we have already got several incredibly valuable conclusions: such as the most representative poll ever of geographic preferences and topic interests. For any 2007 survey, all your feedback is very valuable. Regards, Stephen >From: "Anna Ravenscroft" >To: "Stephen McInerney" >CC: baypiggies at python.org >Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies Member Survey 2006! Closes in 4 days! >Make your voice heard >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:35:50 -0700 > >On 4/27/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > ============================================================ > > 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey URL: > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 > > ============================================================ > > > > Please take a moment to fill in the survey. It will close Sunday 4/30 at > > midnight. > > Only 4 days left. > >The survey requires a response for each and every question or it won't >let you go to the next screen. "I don't know" or "Not applicable" >isn't given as an option. > >I quit out of the survey on the 3rd or 4th page (the really long one) >because of that and won't be completing the survey. Too bad. > >-- >cordially, >Anna >-- >It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar! From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Apr 28 02:02:08 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:02:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto In-Reply-To: <20060426163603.DAD861E4024@bag.python.org> References: <20060426163603.DAD861E4024@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20060428000208.GA13358@panix.com> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making". How has > that been happening so far? Decision? What's that? An appropriate description would be something along the lines of loosely organized chaos. > I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding". > What is binding? Getting enough people to agree. My bias is toward not changing things. > I find it uncomfortable for a big volunteer group to be in a position > where they can't make a decision unless a specific 2 people are > involved, specially when both are too busy writing books and having > babies to participate. Are we simply stuck? Not from my POV. But I don't think that just because a few people are clamoring for change is a reason to let things move forward in a different direction. BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and Deirdre still owns the domain. > If we find a way to unstick ourselves, I hope that we make some > schedule where we rotate the duties, that no one holds a position of > power and visibility for longer than a year or two. That's an idea, but it also implies a lot more organization than I think is likely to ever happen. > "Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or > a programming language, but not for a big volunteer group. Volunteer > groups thrive on democracy. Not in my experience. My experience is that volunteer groups thrive on -- guess what? -- volunteers. And unless the volunteer base is large enough, consensus is usually more important than democracy. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 02:29:03 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:29:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization is CANCELLED Message-ID: * There will be **no meetup re BayPIGgies organization** whether 5/4 or 4/27 Several people expressed interest and said that someone should organize it, then when I proposed 4/27 and 5/4 dates it it turned out everyone was busy with other things. * By a total coincidence, Jacob Kaplan-Moss (last night's Django speaker) yesterday invited people to dinner at Jing Jing's Palo Alto tonight (4/27) I will be there tonight but I am *not* going to hijack Jacob's discussion, that would be bad behavior. * Marilyn, Aahz - your conversation is valuable but you are threadjacking an old stale thread of mine - please change the subject line away from "Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm,Jing Jing, Palo Alto". I had already announced that proposal was stale: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000642.html Please let's be real careful to avoid threadjacking, this has happened several times recently now and causes immense confusion. * Face-to-face discussions on group organization will have to wait until our Thu 5/11 meeting at Google. Please come and bring your constructive ideas. Clearly volunteers are needed in force too. Regards, Stephen (PS My cellphone has been stolen today so email is best way to reach me for the next while.) From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Fri Apr 28 03:06:56 2006 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization is CANCELLED In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > * By a total coincidence, Jacob Kaplan-Moss (last night's Django > speaker) yesterday invited people to dinner at Jing Jing's Palo Alto > tonight (4/27) I will be there tonight but I am *not* going to hijack > Jacob's discussion, that would be bad behavior. What time will this be at? From DennisR at dair.com Fri Apr 28 03:20:17 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:20:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: <20060428000208.GA13358@panix.com> References: <20060426163603.DAD861E4024@bag.python.org> <20060426163603.DAD861E4024@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060427174556.00be9098@localhost> At 05:02 PM 4/27/2006, Aahz wrote: >Aahz> My bias is toward not changing things. My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving forward in that direction. >Not from my POV. But I don't think that just because a few people are >clamoring for change is a reason to let things move forward in a >different direction. "move forward", funny you should mention that... Sorry, but forward movement has already started. Point: Google has started video recording the technical part of our meetings and their site and will be posting the recordings. Video broadcasting of presentations is synergistic with attracting more speakers and having a backlog of quality presentations scheduled for our meetings. Improvised, no-agenda meetings could well be history at the Google site. >BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and >Deirdre still owns the domain. ... and they are going to object to having BayPiggies meetings showcased to the entire Bay Area and world? Somehow, I rather doubt they will stop the site from becoming a resource sponsoring quality presentations for the entire Python community. The "change" coming is better planned meetings. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. >My experience is that volunteer groups thrive >on -- guess what? -- volunteers. +1 ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From annaraven at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 05:05:05 2006 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:05:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies Member Survey 2006! Closes in 4 days! Make your voic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/27/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > Hi Anna, > > Actually it doesn't, I designed it and tested very carefully before > launching to ensure that is not the case. The survey can be completed within > 15min. I had already spent 15 minutes on it. Guess I'm just slow... ;-) > (Questions marked (Optional) are optional: #3, 10, 11, 15, 20, 21, 22) > > I think you mean that *within a compulsory question* (such as the massive > question #14 'Interests'), all items must be checked, Yep. That's the "one". Too bad survey monkey makes it that difficult. I'll try again when I've got more time available to see if I can wade thru the "interests" to get to the important parts on the following pages. In any case - I very much appreciate the work you've put into creating the survey for us. -- cordially, Anna -- It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar! From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Apr 28 07:01:22 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 22:01:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060427174556.00be9098@localhost> References: <20060426163603.DAD861E4024@bag.python.org> <20060426163603.DAD861E4024@bag.python.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060427174556.00be9098@localhost> Message-ID: <20060428050122.GA14170@panix.com> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 05:02 PM 4/27/2006, Aahz wrote: >> >> My bias is toward not changing things. > > My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving > forward in that direction. You snipped enough context to radically change the meaning of what I said. I see no point in responding further. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." --Richard Bach From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 08:05:07 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:05:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies Member Survey 2006! Closes in 4 days! Make your voic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anna and everyone, - you can always bookmark your page on the survey and come back to it later (I enabled this feature inside SurveyMonkey) But it should not take too much more than ~15min. - as we go forward all comments on rearchitecting the survey for 2007 and beyond are useful. For 2006 we just have a couple of limitations. SurveyMonkey is actually brilliant and great value and I am indebted to Wesley for the suggestion. The complex query capabilities for generating results are great. - we are now up to 95 responses, so we are about to do the ton. This is a great response. Regards, Stephen From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 13:52:08 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 04:52:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] organization, owners of responsibilities In-Reply-To: <20060426163603.DAD861E4024@bag.python.org> Message-ID: >From: Marilyn Davis >What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making". How has that >been happening so far? >I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding". >What is binding? >"Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or a >programming language, but not for a big volunteer group. Volunteer groups >thrive on democracy. >Is "democracy" a forgotten art? Exactly. We all agree that consensus is desirable, when achievable. When not, the people who own specific tasks make decisions as they see best. In order to keep it running, those responsibilities are clearly defined for a fixed term and theerafter rotated. Where we differ is what are the mechanisms to attain the consensus, and who gets to arbitrate (this is NOT the list moderator's task). Hashing every issue out on the list is not feasible and not scalable as you move from 20 members who meet face-to-face in an SF coffee shop (2000) to 340 members widely distributed around the Bay Area (2006) and indeed the US. >----- On Tuesday, April 25, 2006 DennisR at dair.com wrote: > > > [things which need to be done to allow Wesley to "become a civilian"] > >>... and time-moderate meetings > > I did this at last IronPort meeting. I see the Random Access/Mapping >which > > I would like to moderate as the final event so I serve as an advocate >for > > ending regular program on time. I think Dennis has done a great job on that so far and I second him to continue - if he wants. Many other people esp. new or infrequent members expressed gratitude that the random access allowed them to make themselves known and easily connect with people and answers. > >>- setup/maintain locations with hosts > >>- organize offsite meetings when main site(s) aren't available > >>- hang/tape up signs at sites to direct folks to meeting room > >If there is a meeting-starter position, this sign duty should go along with >it. Sounds like it falls under Logistics to me (security access, directions, room confirmation, videoing...)? Which is really a two-person job. > >>- collate and hand out swag to speakers > > Seems like another possible topic for Stephen's meeting. Historically this very minor task was tied to O'Reilly (plus non-O'Reilly) book reviews and was one of Wes's many responsibilities. In conversation with Wes we also discussed e.g. putting all speakers for 2005 into a draw for a couple of books. TonyC - do you want to own this one? I have one side issue on that - I tried to hit up Pixar for a couple of tshirts for the survey (I contacted Elizabeth Palmore 5 times), since they do post jobs regularly now. Zero response. Very disappointed at Pixar. I suggest we do have a charter that defines "corporate members or recruiters agree that in return for access to the list and/or group, they will give us small freebies (tshirts/books) in return". > > There are some issues here with no clear owner yet imo. Stephen is >calling > > an organizing meeting and this topic is included, as he has specifically > > identified "current alternating location setup" as a discussion topic. Unfortunately, not happening. I twice attempted to call an organizing meeting since several people asked me to hold it, but then almost everyone dropped out due to other commitments they had not mentioned. - I will mix these topics into the Q&A at end of Thu May 11 survey presentation, insofar as 15-20 minutes will allow us to at least touch on the diversity of opinion on these matters. But the forming of consensus has yet to emerge fully. Some people post very productive comments on the list, but then other people complain about list volume or the topics... how to accomodate these? Many people are losing patience. Some are unsubscribing. Is it time for a baypiggies-announce list? Or can we make decisions and get back to the old ways. > >>- update/maintain the website > >>- manage/moderate mailing list (rejecting spam, etc.) For further discussion. These two tasks are separable and maybe they are better separated since the workload is increasing steadily (e.g. now likely looking at more than 12 mtgs/year). > >>- keep meetings going even if there is no topic > > > > I have a difference of opinion on this one. If we don't have a topic, I > > don't think we have a meeting. I would want to put my energy into >having > > content in the meeting. If there is no content, then cancel the meeting >is > > my feeling. Let me make some observations I have seen from the survey results (96 so far and counting). - Some people value the social/networking content of a meeting equally or more highly than a particular talk, and are happy to just chat, network, discuss their issues and meet people. - Some people (esp. who have 3/4-hr roundtrip commutes) need to be assured the event they are promised will actually happen as advertised. We can accomodate both by being well-organized. This is one of Rick Moen's laws: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Linux_PR/newlug.html "6. You need to make sure that meetings happen as advertised, without fail." Rich Morin posted that excellent article and it is well worth a read from top to bottom. (It is possible some members could also propose social events, meetups, cafe chats.) >[Marilyn] I am intrigued by Paul Gavin's generous [webhosting] offer: >Do I remember that Dennis asked for the power to upload his working >schedule to the web site? >I think it would be cool to have an alternate web space with the name >pybay.xxx. Short and sweet. Maybe Dennis could upload his document there? > Maybe the baypiggies site could be echoed there. Let us please not inject "domain name change" into the mix. I suggested we table that until June at earliest. If Deirdre owns the baypiggies domain name, would she agree to transfer it to someone else? I think that is a good step to take for the time being. Without prejudice to any possible future name change or not. If Danny is the point of contact that may be problematic, since he's moving to the East Coast. So let us identify "domain name contact" and "webmaster" as unresolved issues. > > This has been an excellent list. Thanks for being explicit. If we can make decisions we can and should get the list volume back down. (I'm thinking of a certain John Lennon song.) Best, Stephen From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Apr 28 16:53:42 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 07:53:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) Message-ID: <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> Good Saturday Morning, ----- On Thursday, April 27, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > On Wed, Apr 26, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >> >> What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making". How has >> that been happening so far? > > Decision? What's that? An appropriate description would be something > along the lines of loosely organized chaos. Yes, so far. And it worked most the time. And thank you, and all the long-time volunteers for pulling so much together for so long. > >> I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding". >> What is binding? > > Getting enough people to agree. My bias is toward not changing things. Gee Aahz, you didn't go to the March meeting and experience first-hand that something needs fixing/changing. The expression is "if it works, don't fix it". But if you drove to that meeting, and sat in the audience blinking in amazement like a deer in the headlights, you'd know that something is not working. Also, the group of volunteers has whittled way down and there has been a call for new ones. That's change. > >> I find it uncomfortable for a big volunteer group to be in a position >> where they can't make a decision unless a specific 2 people are >> involved, specially when both are too busy writing books and having >> babies to participate. Are we simply stuck? > > Not from my POV. But I don't think that just because a few people are > clamoring for change is a reason to let things move forward in a > different direction. It depends on the people. If the new volunteers are clamoring for change, then it's time to change. > > BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and > Deirdre still owns the domain. There you are. Danny is going away. Deirdre is into Ruby now. The keys to our important resources are away from the control of the new volunteers. The power of the group lies in the computer resources. These need to belong to the group. Strange things can happen when individuals feel they own them. > >> If we find a way to unstick ourselves, I hope that we make some >> schedule where we rotate the duties, that no one holds a position of >> power and visibility for longer than a year or two. > > That's an idea, but it also implies a lot more organization than I think > is likely to ever happen. > >> "Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or >> a programming language, but not for a big volunteer group. Volunteer >> groups thrive on democracy. > > Not in my experience. My experience is that volunteer groups thrive > on -- guess what? -- volunteers. And unless the volunteer base is large > enough, consensus is usually more important than democracy. Consensus, where no one disagrees, is the purest form of democracy. We're not likely to acheive that. I should rephrase. We are not a big volunteer group. There have been five(?) volunteers over the history of the group? 5/340 (pulling up the python interprester) = 1.47% We are a group of mostly moochers, including me until that March meeting, with almost no volunteers. To attract and keep volunteers, the volunteers need to feel it is their club, that they have voice and power in determining direction. So, if the new volunteers are clamoring for some organization and change, it is important to hear that and support them in their efforts. To coordinate volunteers, the good coordinator says "yes! good idea! how can I help! thank you!" -- never anything negative. Stephen, and everyone, I'm sorry about the thread-jacking. I'll try to be more conscious. In our defense I'll say that it was a easy slip since we were talking about whether or not there was any point in that meeting. But, I'll certainly try to be more conscious about it. And Stephen, please don't tell me what to talk about. It will never work. And mentioning Paul's offer to give us pybay.xxx isn't just about a different name, it is about a web site that new volunteers can contribute to. Dennis is using his own. Too much traffic? I see that Aahz announces meetings to python-list at python.org and python-announce at python.org. I can't think of another purpose for this list than to figure out face-to-faces and coordinate volunteers. It seems that every other feasible purpose has another list. My best wishes, Marilyn From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Apr 28 17:19:29 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:19:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) Message-ID: <20060428151931.DD6EB1E4006@bag.python.org> ----- On Friday, April 28, 2006 marilyn at deliberate.com wrote: > Good Saturday Morning, Ooops. Got that wrong. Happy Friday! Marilyn From andywiggin at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 21:15:34 2006 From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:15:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Summary of Python in Electronic Design Automation (EDA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74e7428a0604281215g68802258xf434a4ffd61588be@mail.gmail.com> You can add me to the EDA interest list (Andy Wiggin, Synopsys). I would attend an EDA oriented evening. On 4/26/06, Stephen McInerney wrote: > EDA is unfortunately historically dominated by legacy proprietary languages > (Cadence SKILL (a LISP derivative), Synopsys dc-shell, etc.). > Tcl has emerged within the last 8 years to an extent as the de facto > scripting and automation > standard, as endorsed by many EDA vendors. (Believe it or not, that's a huge > advance on what went before). > Essentially, EDA scripting as written by EE's (as opposed to the EDA > software itself, which is written by CS guys) lags best practices in > software (revision control, testing, object-orienting, reuse) by about 25 > years typically. This is a pet topic of mine and believe me I can show you > plenty metrics to prove that (see also ISQED conference). I've been chuckling about the above for the past two days. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence to confirm it. However, I'm wondering if your theory is that EE software skills are constantly advancing, just delayed by 25 years, or if EEs stuck in 1980? I'd lean towards the latter :) FYI, I'm aware of another, though obscure, use of Python in EDA. In 2000 (maybe 2001?) I evaluated an MCM design product from Zuken/Redac. It used primarily a GUI interface, but it also had a scripting interface, and the language was Python. And one general thought about Python as a TUI for an EDA tool: There's a long tradition (from the logic synthesis tools of the late 80's, perhaps?) of EDA point tools being implemented as command shells. This allows for a single interface (often Tcl, as noted) to be the interactive command shell as well as the scripting/automation interface. I think it's hard to make a case for Python as an interactive shell. User's like the command/option paradigm, such as in Tcl, and would probably resist a function call based TUI for interactive use. I've always thought that some kind of command shell built in Python that allowed both a command/option syntax and standard Python syntax (or perhaps a way to push/pop into one or the other) might expand Python's horizons. I looked at the built in cmd module years ago, but it didn't quite seem to fit the bill. Is anyone aware of other similar projects? -Andy From nata_keel at yahoo.com Fri Apr 28 21:27:02 2006 From: nata_keel at yahoo.com (Natalie Listik) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Please unsubscribe me - I forgot my password... Message-ID: <20060428192703.78981.qmail@web51514.mail.yahoo.com> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 22:03:18 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:03:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> Message-ID: Hi Marilyn, >From: Marilyn Davis >And Stephen, please don't tell me what to talk about. It will never work. > >And mentioning Paul's offer to give us pybay.xxx isn't just about a >different name, it is about a web site that new volunteers can contribute >to. Dennis is using his own. It seemed like proposing domain name change is a backdoor way of proposing name change. Unless you meant "regaining access to the baypiggies server", in which case that intent was not stated. Was that your intent? Re name: Many people have stated very strongly they do not want to discuss changing the name, and object to the list volume, to the point of unsubscribing - here are the fairly strong survey comments on that matter: 1. The mailing list is far too noisy with silly junk like name changing. Really, 50 messages in a day about chaning the name is just enough to make anyone unsubscribe and not come to meetings because the people involved are just too petty. Having been involved in other PIGs, BayPIGgies is a little too busy-bodied without enough to show for all the accompanying anal retention. This is why even though the Bay Area is home to many Python luminaries, those people have a low level of engagement with BayPIGgies. If someone has a talk to give, have a meeting. If not, don't worry about it. 2. TOO MUCH EMAIL GOING AROUND. CAN WE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP IT!!!!! This used to be a useful mailing list and I look forward to mails to this list. NOT ANYMORE. >Too much traffic? I see that Aahz announces meetings to >python-list at python.org and python-announce at python.org. I can't think of >another purpose for this list than to figure out face-to-faces and >coordinate volunteers. It seems that every other feasible purpose has >another list. You have seen the unsubscribe requests. We only make <=3 announces a month, so a baypiggies-announce list could be a great idea. The group internal conversations about Python, interests and the group itself are currently generating ~150 a mth. I now read the list using the threaded mailman view: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/thread.html Regards, Stephen From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 22:46:22 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:46:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Pixar pledges amazing prizes for BayPIGgies survey Message-ID: In the last 6hrs, Elizabeth & Krishanda from Pixar have been in touch and promised a really desirable set of prizes for the survey. So many thanks to Pixar as the best animation sponsor of BayPIGgies! (Krishanda also tells me the engineers would love to come and speak, but much of what they do is proprietary, so that's complicated, but we'll see what's possible... Drew maybe you can suggest how to approach that? This is very similar to the scenario on publishing about Python use in EDA) Regards, Stephen From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Sat Apr 29 00:32:24 2006 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> References: <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> Message-ID: >> BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and >> Deirdre still owns the domain. > > There you are. Danny is going away. Deirdre is into Ruby now. The > keys to our important resources are away from the control of the new > volunteers. Hi Marilyn, That brings up a point: I must reliquish control of this to allow someone more involved to be the point of contact. It's not fair to the active members of the group to be beholden to anyone who doesn't attend the meetings (like me! *wink*) I'm sorry that I just can't be more involved. But I do want to make sure I'm not encumbering the group. If anyone wants to step up to this, please raise your hand, and we'll do the "passing of keys" thing. Right now, the only other people I know who I've shared the site information to have been: * Wes * Tony * Aahz And I suspect that none of us are involved to a degree that satisfies the group. So if someone wants to be the point person (people?) for this, please send your consent to the group. This problem is very solvable! *grin* The same princibles should apply too with the 'baypiggies.net' domain name. In this case, I still have to hear back from Deirdre and register.com about this one, and assume that register.com is just dragging its feet on completing the transfer. But in the case that someone can raise their hand to shepherd the domain name, they should do that now so we can get this quickly settled too. Best of wishes! From DennisR at dair.com Sat Apr 29 00:38:20 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:38:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: References: <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> At 03:32 PM 4/28/2006, Danny Yoo wrote: >If anyone wants to step up to this, please >raise your hand, and we'll do the "passing of keys" thing. Danny, I am interested in this key passing thing. Others can hold up their hands and we will work it out. I already have content for the next several meetings (in my sig) that the present arrangement is not moving forward on so I have already started. Regards, Dennis ------------------------------------ | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html | ------------------------------------ From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Sat Apr 29 00:57:21 2006 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> References: <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > I am interested in this key passing thing. Others can hold up their > hands and we will work it out. I already have content for the next > several meetings (in my sig) that the present arrangement is not moving > forward on so I have already started. Ok, this sounds good. Anyone else? I'd feel comfortable if we have at least two active volunteers with web server access to increase redundancy. I'll cook up a quick-and-dirty README on passwords and other server details. Talk to you later! From donnamsnow at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 01:00:07 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:00:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> References: <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> Message-ID: Hi, I'm interested in helping to get a CMS (Plone) setup so we can make this more of a collaborative online environment instead of dependence on one individual to post upcoming information. I am officially offering space on my Zope/Python/Plone server for the baypiggies.net website. Paul McGavin had also offered space on his Zope server and has offered to help me with any python scripting that might be over my head. Donna M. Snow On 4/28/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 03:32 PM 4/28/2006, Danny Yoo wrote: > >If anyone wants to step up to this, please > >raise your hand, and we'll do the "passing of keys" thing. > > Danny, > > I am interested in this key passing thing. Others can hold up their hands > and we will work it out. I already have content for the next several > meetings (in my sig) that the present arrangement is not moving forward on > so I have already started. > > Regards, Dennis > ------------------------------------ > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html | > ------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From DennisR at dair.com Sat Apr 29 01:17:22 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:17:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060428160044.00bf7568@localhost> At 03:57 PM 4/28/2006, Danny Yoo wrote: >On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > >>I am interested in this key passing thing. Others can hold up their >>hands and we will work it out. I already have content for the next >>several meetings (in my sig) that the present arrangement is not moving >>forward on so I have already started. > >Ok, this sounds good. Anyone else? > >I'd feel comfortable if we have at least two active volunteers with web >server access to increase redundancy. I'll cook up a quick-and-dirty >README on passwords and other server details. Yes, will be taken care of. I am volunteering to register the domain and manage access. I think we have an enthusiastic volunteer for web master ... not me. There is a loose team of 3-4 of us who have already been coordinating among ourselves so redundancy should not be a major problem. In this posting: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/thread.html Deirdre mention restricted sftp access for some accounts. I would like to get root access for management purposes. I sense that whoever is providing hosting might want to stop providing hosting. Also, the CMS tools might change with a new webmaster. Both of these possibilities suggest a server move is in the future. I hope that addressing what needs to be known is part of the "server details" you are writing up. ------------------------------------ | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html | ------------------------------------ From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Sat Apr 29 01:23:51 2006 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: References: <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Donna Snow wrote: > I'm interested in helping to get a CMS (Plone) setup so we can make this > more of a collaborative online environment instead of dependence on one > individual to post upcoming information. Hi Donna, Hmmm... I'm not familiar with Plone, although this sounds interesting. Out of curiosity, until we get some more concensus on CMS's, would things be acceptable if we do all web-server content administration through Subversion? This is actually the way we have things up now. Allowing more people to edit the web site will only be a matter of giving such people an svn password to access: http://svn.baypiggies.python-hosted.com/website/htdocs The only other niggling issue is getting the baypiggies.net web site to automatically deploy new updates whenever a commit goes through. We haven't set up a crontab to do this yet, but I'm sure this isn't rocket science... *grin* From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Sat Apr 29 01:34:36 2006 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) (fwd) Message-ID: Whoops, forgot to keep baypiggies in CC. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:32:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Danny Yoo To: Dennis Reinhardt Cc: Deirdre Saoirse Moen , Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) > Yes, will be taken care of. I am volunteering to register the domain and > manage access. I think we have an enthusiastic volunteer for web master ... > not me. There is a loose team of 3-4 of us who have already been > coordinating among ourselves so redundancy should not be a major problem. > > In this posting: > > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/thread.html > > Deirdre mention restricted sftp access for some accounts. I would like to > get root access for management purposes. [CCing Deirdre] Good. Ok, I'll review the thread there just to get myself up to speed, and will send you the root access (it's not really root) details to you. Deirdre, if you haven't done the domain name transfer thing yet, could you pass the domain to Dennis rather than me? He's been active with Baypiggies, and I trust him with it. > I sense that whoever is providing hosting might want to stop providing > hosting. Also, the CMS tools might change with a new webmaster. Both of > these possibilities suggest a server move is in the future. I hope that > addressing what needs to be known is part of the "server details" you are > writing up. We do have the option of running other services on python-hosting. For example, they appear to allow Zope, TuroGears, or Django installs. (Has anyone heard of this crazy Django thing? *wink*) I guess I'm trying to say: moving is always possible, but let's see if we can accomodate the CMS at python-hosting.com first. From DennisR at dair.com Sat Apr 29 01:27:02 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:27:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060428161927.00c01008@localhost> At 04:00 PM 4/28/2006, Donna Snow wrote: >Hi, > >I'm interested in helping to get a CMS (Plone) setup so we can make >this more of a collaborative online environment instead of dependence >on one individual to post upcoming information. > >I am officially offering space on my Zope/Python/Plone server for the >baypiggies.net website. > >Paul McGavin had also offered space on his Zope server and has offered >to help me with any python scripting that might be over my head. Hi Donna, You were exactly who I had in mind for webmaster in my posting which just went out. For redundancy, I would like to register/assign the DNS and have root access for redundancy. Other than that, I don't see myself really involved in (mucking up) the web site. Is that OK with you? Thanks for jumping in. Your and Paul's offer of hosting is very gracious. Sounds good to me, something we can work out if and as we go further. ------------------------------------ | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html | ------------------------------------ From p at ulmcnett.com Sat Apr 29 01:54:29 2006 From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:54:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: References: <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost> Message-ID: <4452AB35.8060309@ulmcnett.com> Danny Yoo wrote: > The only other niggling issue is getting the baypiggies.net web site to > automatically deploy new updates whenever a commit goes through. We > haven't set up a crontab to do this yet, but I'm sure this isn't rocket > science... *grin* Is the subversion repository on the same machine as the webserver? If so, you don't even need a cronjob but a simple 'svn up /var/www/baypiggies' in the post-commit hook for the repository. Otherwise, the cronjob on the web server would look something like: */1 * * * * /usr/bin/svn up --username user --password shhh /var/www/baypiggies This example has it running every minute. And if the repository is world-readable (it should be) you wouldn't need the --username or --password arguments. -- Paul McNett http://paulmcnett.com http://dabodev.com From keith at kdart.com Sun Apr 30 00:52:48 2006 From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 15:52:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Summary of Python in Electronic Design Automation (EDA) In-Reply-To: <74e7428a0604281215g68802258xf434a4ffd61588be@mail.gmail.com> References: <74e7428a0604281215g68802258xf434a4ffd61588be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060429155248.50435db9@localhost> Andy Wiggin wrote the following on 2006-04-28 at 12:15 PDT: === > nteractive use. I've always thought that some kind of command shell > built in Python that allowed both a command/option syntax and standard > Python syntax (or perhaps a way to push/pop into one or the other) > might expand Python's horizons. I looked at the built in cmd module > years ago, but it didn't quite seem to fit the bill. Is anyone aware > of other similar projects? === That sounds like ipython . I also have a CLI framework as part of pyNMS . However, this framework implements a CLI that you cannot evaluate Python directly but is used to implement Cisco/Posix-like CLI for other projects. On the other hand, you can enter "Python mode" with it. I also use it for the pyNMS enhanced debugger. -- -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Keith Dart public key: ID: 19017044 ===================================================================== From marilyn at deliberate.com Sun Apr 30 03:34:02 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 18:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Danny Yoo wrote: > >> BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and > >> Deirdre still owns the domain. > > > > There you are. Danny is going away. Deirdre is into Ruby now. The > > keys to our important resources are away from the control of the new > > volunteers. > > Hi Marilyn, > > That brings up a point: I must reliquish control of this to allow someone > more involved to be the point of contact. It's not fair to the active > members of the group to be beholden to anyone who doesn't attend the > meetings (like me! *wink*) Thank you Danny! And thank you new volunteers: Dennis, Donna and Paul. It sounds like you are cookin' already. I look forward to the new site. And thank you Danny for all you've done for years. Marilyn > > I'm sorry that I just can't be more involved. But I do want to make sure > I'm not encumbering the group. If anyone wants to step up to this, please > raise your hand, and we'll do the "passing of keys" thing. Right now, the > only other people I know who I've shared the site information to have > been: > > * Wes > * Tony > * Aahz > > And I suspect that none of us are involved to a degree that satisfies the > group. So if someone wants to be the point person (people?) for this, > please send your consent to the group. This problem is very solvable! > *grin* > > The same princibles should apply too with the 'baypiggies.net' domain > name. In this case, I still have to hear back from Deirdre and > register.com about this one, and assume that register.com is just dragging > its feet on completing the transfer. But in the case that someone can > raise their hand to shepherd the domain name, they should do that now so > we can get this quickly settled too. > > > Best of wishes! > -- From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu Sun Apr 30 08:04:54 2006 From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 23:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > And thank you new volunteers: Dennis, Donna and Paul. It sounds like > you are cookin' already. I look forward to the new site. Hi Marilyn, Yes, I sent off all the password and account information to Dennis and Donna. So --- hurrah! --- that's one problem we can cross off as fixed. The only sorta lingering problem is domain name transfer, but this should be fixed shortly. Dennis will be the "designated driver" of the domain. Dynamite! *wink* The next steps should probably be for the website team to get the baypiggies.net page up to date with the upcoming meetings. I've sent them the information necessary to update the pages. (It would be easy for me to update it, of course, but I want to leave it in their capable hands; it'll also ensure that I've truly sent them all the necessary info to keep the site maintained.) Is there anything else we're missing here? (Again, I apologize for not responding sooner to this problem; I'm really busy packing and clearing --- I'm moving to the East Coast proper in May.) From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sun Apr 30 12:41:05 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 03:41:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies Member Survey 2006. Last call - closes tonight! Message-ID: ============================================================ 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey URL: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 ============================================================ Last call for stragglers to fill in the survey :) Closes tonight Sunday 4/30 at midnight. - we have 103 responses now With Pixar's prize pledge, we are up to at least 15 prizes, some of them are exclusive Pixar, Google items, O'Reilly, Sams books and other stuff. - full results, analysis and discussion at May 11 Google meeting Full details at: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000631.html Thank you, Stephen ============================================================ 2006 BayPIGgies Member Survey URL: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?A=123951467E24825 ============================================================