From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 00:11:32 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:11:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List
In-Reply-To: <a19c5c08377701432b0d10f8820b525b@well.com>
References: <20070227210246.6D4F91E400C@bag.python.org>
	<df774dc0b8fdcab980d9bf5934129555@cruzio.com>
	<a19c5c08377701432b0d10f8820b525b@well.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702281511x505e1b18vbf1fbfd920cf5bc2@mail.gmail.com>

> On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Doug Landauer wrote:
> >> Of course not.  But the 65% might reconsider the wisdom of sticking to
> >> a name that 35% find unpleasant.  We'll never know how many more find
> >> it too uncomfortable to join.
> >
> > We'll also never know just how much of an overestimate that 35% is.
> >
> > For what it's worth, there is a twenty-year-old "Psychology of
> > Programming
> > Interest Group" which has embraced the "pig" mascot ... see
> > http://www.ppig.org/
> > (they have a very cool little piggie favicon).   It seems to me that if
> > experts in psychology are happy to embrace such a symbol, then we who
> > are
> > experts only in programming probably ought at least to let it slide.
> >
> >   Just my opinion,
> >     -- Doug L.
On 2/28/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
> please, please let it slide--jj, help!

(playfully:)

Ok, I was trying to avoid putting my foot down, but I feel compelled
to.  From hence forth, disparaging pigs will no longer be tolerated!
Consider:

* The DNA of pigs is well known to be extremely similar to the DNA of humans.

* Pigs are well known for their intelligence.

* Pigs are far smarter than pythons.

* Furthermore, they are far more trustworthy.

* They are able to survive in the most meager of conditions.

* Pigs are related to the wild boar, well known for its fierce independence.

* Pigs are gaining popularity as pets.

In summary, I will no longer tolerate open prejudice against pigs!
Let us embrace our namesake with much frivolous joy and celebration!
I, for one, am proud to be a piggy!

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjhartley at att.net  Thu Mar  1 00:25:11 2007
From: jjhartley at att.net (jjhartley at att.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:25:11 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List
Message-ID: <022820072325.29720.45E60F570005ABB9000074182160376223970A049B9D0E080606@att.net>

I'll also put my hoof in this conversation.  Rejoice all, it's the Year of the Pig!  Woo hoo!

j
-------------- Original message from "Shannon -jj Behrens" <jjinux at gmail.com>: -------------- 


> > On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Doug Landauer wrote: 
> > >> Of course not. But the 65% might reconsider the wisdom of sticking to 
> > >> a name that 35% find unpleasant. We'll never know how many more find 
> > >> it too uncomfortable to join. 
> > > 
> > > We'll also never know just how much of an overestimate that 35% is. 
> > > 
> > > For what it's worth, there is a twenty-year-old "Psychology of 
> > > Programming 
> > > Interest Group" which has embraced the "pig" mascot ... see 
> > > http://www.ppig.org/ 
> > > (they have a very cool little piggie favicon). It seems to me that if 
> > > experts in psychology are happy to embrace such a symbol, then we who 
> > > are 
> > > experts only in programming probably ought at least to let it slide. 
> > > 
> > > Just my opinion, 
> > > -- Doug L. 
> On 2/28/07, jim stockford wrote: 
> > 
> > please, please let it slide--jj, help! 
> 
> (playfully:) 
> 
> Ok, I was trying to avoid putting my foot down, but I feel compelled 
> to. From hence forth, disparaging pigs will no longer be tolerated! 
> Consider: 
> 
> * The DNA of pigs is well known to be extremely similar to the DNA of humans. 
> 
> * Pigs are well known for their intelligence. 
> 
> * Pigs are far smarter than pythons. 
> 
> * Furthermore, they are far more trustworthy. 
> 
> * They are able to survive in the most meager of conditions. 
> 
> * Pigs are related to the wild boar, well known for its fierce independence. 
> 
> * Pigs are gaining popularity as pets. 
> 
> In summary, I will no longer tolerate open prejudice against pigs! 
> Let us embrace our namesake with much frivolous joy and celebration! 
> I, for one, am proud to be a piggy! 
> 
> Best Regards, 
> -jj 
> 
> -- 
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Baypiggies mailing list 
> Baypiggies at python.org 
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies 
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 00:28:53 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:28:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] web developers - Perfect python framework?
In-Reply-To: <20070227174935.1f4e25ef@tinker.homenetwork>
References: <20070227174935.1f4e25ef@tinker.homenetwork>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702281528x1669afb2n2ecac782fbe30249@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/27/07, Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> I curious to know what those of you who develop web based applications,
> in Python or not, would consider to be a "perfect" framework. Anyone
> care to enumerate their ideas?

Use the right tool for the job.  There's a big difference between a
content management system and a framework for creating highly custom
applications.

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 00:55:34 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:55:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/26/07, Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> After some experience with the Django web application framework, and
> studying other frameworks such as Pylons and Paste, I decided to
> create yet another framework. ;-) This one is closer to my idea of
> "perfection" in a framework. ;-) It's salient features over other is:
>
> Runs on Linux
> Python based.
> No threads.
> Integrated lighttpd and fastCGI coprocesses.
> Virtual hosting.
> Process controller (with restart).
> Fast.
> Standards compliant.
> No templates required.
> Modern WSGI interface.
> Object oriented.
> As flexible as Python itself.
>
> But... it's new and not fully tested.

Hi Keith,

Pylons can do all of those things, without constricting you to *just*
those things.  Welcome to the wonderful world of Web framework
creators ;)  I'm guilty as well ;)

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From webmaven at cox.net  Thu Mar  1 01:03:45 2007
From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:03:45 -0600
Subject: [Baypiggies] web developers - Perfect python framework?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702281528x1669afb2n2ecac782fbe30249@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070227174935.1f4e25ef@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281528x1669afb2n2ecac782fbe30249@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1172707425.6891.44.camel@journeyman>

On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 15:28 -0800, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> On 2/27/07, Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> > I curious to know what those of you who develop web based applications,
> > in Python or not, would consider to be a "perfect" framework. Anyone
> > care to enumerate their ideas?
> 
> Use the right tool for the job.  There's a big difference between a
> content management system and a framework for creating highly custom
> applications.

And, for that matter, between those and a framework for creating highly
custom Content Management Systems. ;-)

Has anyone seen my hammer factory factory? I left it around here
somewhere...

- Michael R. Bernstein


From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 01:07:40 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:07:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] FYI Chicago is Pycon 2008
In-Reply-To: <77d044440702260136ld182503td9b6af7ada572097@mail.gmail.com>
References: <77d044440702260136ld182503td9b6af7ada572097@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702281607l1de6b346m3ac6fa2f5ef2f491@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Alvin,

Thanks for your hard work.  I know this is saddening to you, but just
think of all the hard work you don't have to do!  I'm always happy to
let someone else do all the hard work if I can avoid it ;)  Besides,
I've never been to Chicago.

-jj

On 2/26/07, Alvin Wang <alvinwang at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> They announced the winner after I left on Sunday so I got the info late.
> Anyway Chicago won.
>
>  http://chipy.org/ChiPyCon_2008_Bid
>
>  There were several reasons.
>  - cheaper, they felt that Chicago would be a reasonable incremental
> increase in room rate.
>  - bigger - this year was 40% larger than last year.  They expect at least
> that large a jump by coming to the Bay Area.
> - Chicago stacked the quiz responses from 2006.  Chicago was the most asked
> for venue.  In talking to people that were not from Chicago, SF was widely
> preferred.  Chicago has a lot of people at the conference.
>
> I pitched Santa Clara too after some people expressed concern about San
> Mateo's size.
>
> I got the feeling that they wanted to split the win since 2 cities put in
> good bids.  Chicago was cheaper and had a lot of people so they went first.
>
>  There is a very good possibility that 2009 will be awarded prior to 2008.
> The problem is that 2009 will be even larger.  They are going to contact me
> about it.  I am planning on looking into a few more options.
>
>
>  Thanks
>  Alvin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar  1 01:12:45 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:12:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 15:55 PST:
===
> Pylons can do all of those things, without constricting you to *just*
> those things.  Welcome to the wonderful world of Web framework
> creators ;)  I'm guilty as well ;)

===

What I didn't like about Pylons is that embeds the assumption that
you're using threads. I don't like threads, and this framework uses
multiple processes instead. One reason for this is explained very well
here:

http://poshmodule.sourceforge.net/posh/html/node1.html

I also prefer it for security reasons (having multiple servers each
running as a different user, in a different chroot). 

I also like Django style regular-expression URL mapping. But it
does not have a reverse function or mapping. My framework uses Django
style mapping to cleanly map URL paths to callables, and can also go in
reverse (provide the callable and get the URL that will get to it). 

I also don't like templates because it's difficult to guarantee
standards compliance. This framework allows you to construct pages
using pure Python code. The result is guaranteed to comply with the
selected DTD (XML bases: eg. XHTML or WML), or else fail. 




-- 

-- ------------------------------
Keith Dart
<dart at google.com>
GPG Key Id: 57C0417D
"I need some %s." % hex(12648430)
=================================

From whitaker at google.com  Thu Mar  1 01:13:36 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:13:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List
In-Reply-To: <022820072325.29720.45E60F570005ABB9000074182160376223970A049B9D0E080606@att.net>
References: <022820072325.29720.45E60F570005ABB9000074182160376223970A049B9D0E080606@att.net>
Message-ID: <997a56990702281613t492d87e9of14d7205a859f90b@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/28/07, jjhartley at att.net <jjhartley at att.net> wrote:
>
> I'll also put my hoof in this conversation.  Rejoice all, it's the Year of
> the Pig!  Woo hoo!
>

Ungulates Unite!

Russell

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar  1 01:14:13 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:14:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702281511x505e1b18vbf1fbfd920cf5bc2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070227210246.6D4F91E400C@bag.python.org>
	<df774dc0b8fdcab980d9bf5934129555@cruzio.com>
	<a19c5c08377701432b0d10f8820b525b@well.com>
	<c41f67b90702281511x505e1b18vbf1fbfd920cf5bc2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070228161413.73aae056@psyche.corp.google.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 15:11 PST:
===
> In summary, I will no longer tolerate open prejudice against pigs!
> Let us embrace our namesake with much frivolous joy and celebration!
> I, for one, am proud to be a piggy!

===

PIG is also a natural acronym for Python Interest Group. :-O



-- 

-- ------------------------------
Keith Dart
<dart at google.com>
GPG Key Id: 57C0417D
"I need some %s." % hex(12648430)
=================================

From whitaker at google.com  Thu Mar  1 01:16:37 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:16:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List
In-Reply-To: <20070228161413.73aae056@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070227210246.6D4F91E400C@bag.python.org>
	<df774dc0b8fdcab980d9bf5934129555@cruzio.com>
	<a19c5c08377701432b0d10f8820b525b@well.com>
	<c41f67b90702281511x505e1b18vbf1fbfd920cf5bc2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161413.73aae056@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <997a56990702281616r5c3d8f1dkbeb724842d041254@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/28/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 15:11 PST:
> ===
> > In summary, I will no longer tolerate open prejudice against pigs!
> > Let us embrace our namesake with much frivolous joy and celebration!
> > I, for one, am proud to be a piggy!
>
> ===
>
> PIG is also a natural acronym for Python Interest Group. :-O
>

Hence its name.  But you know that.  And this is such a non-issue, why
does anyone
really care?

Russell, who was around at the beginning, but dropped off the group
until recently...

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From mac at Wireless.Com  Thu Mar  1 01:16:52 2007
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:16:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0702281615020.2047@S.culver.net>

I've been looking closely at TurboGears, and especially the Prentice-Hall book "Rapid Web Applications with TurboGears - Using Python to Create Ajax-Powered Sites".

The book seems mighty good, especially since it's describing work in progress.

Did you consider and reject TurboGears as well?

-Mike



On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:55:34 -0800
> From: Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com>
> To: Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
> Cc: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
> 
> On 2/26/07, Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
>> After some experience with the Django web application framework, and
>> studying other frameworks such as Pylons and Paste, I decided to
>> create yet another framework. ;-) This one is closer to my idea of
>> "perfection" in a framework. ;-) It's salient features over other is:
>>
>> Runs on Linux
>> Python based.
>> No threads.
>> Integrated lighttpd and fastCGI coprocesses.
>> Virtual hosting.
>> Process controller (with restart).
>> Fast.
>> Standards compliant.
>> No templates required.
>> Modern WSGI interface.
>> Object oriented.
>> As flexible as Python itself.
>>
>> But... it's new and not fully tested.
>
> Hi Keith,
>
> Pylons can do all of those things, without constricting you to *just*
> those things.  Welcome to the wonderful world of Web framework
> creators ;)  I'm guilty as well ;)
>
> Happy Hacking!
> -jj
>
> -- 
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From asheesh at asheesh.org  Thu Mar  1 01:38:18 2007
From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:38:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.0.82.0702281937420.24346@alchemy>

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Keith Dart ? wrote:

> I also don't like templates because it's difficult to guarantee 
> standards compliance. This framework allows you to construct pages using 
> pure Python code. The result is guaranteed to comply with the selected 
> DTD (XML bases: eg. XHTML or WML), or else fail.

Kid <http://kid-templating.org/> is awesome.

-- Asheesh.

-- 
You have had a long-term stimulation relative to business.

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 01:46:21 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:46:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <20070228163732.77a8777e@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90702281620h35b84612ja620dfd39f813f52@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228163732.77a8777e@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702281646t3551eb15l669eb4f821347364@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/28/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 16:20 PST:
> ===
> > > What I didn't like about Pylons is that embeds the assumption that
> > > you're using threads.
> >
> > I don't agree.  You can use Pylons without threads just as well.
>
> But the modules I looked at import threading and use locks. I just
> didn't want the threading module imported at all.
>
>
> > By the way, my framework, Aquarium, which is what IronPort still uses,
> > was based around the idea of being completely thread vs. process
> > agnostic.
>
> My framework is actually process model agnostic as well. But, as I
> said, Pylons is not. I just happened to do the final implementation in
> a subprocess model, but the core components are process model agnostic
> as it should be.
>
>
> >
> > That's a deployment issue.  You can do that just as well in other frameworks.
>
> But not as easily.
>
> > I complained about that to Jacob Kaplan Moss at a BayPiggies meeting.
> > They're currently fixing that.
>
> Too late for me. ;-)
>
> >
> > I have no clue what you mean by that.  I really like Genshi.  When I
> > use Genshi, I can decide to have it generate HTML or XHTML, and it
> > guarantees the HTML to be well formed.
>
> As does my XHTML generator. Templates have hand-code markup in them.
> Any time you have hand-coding you introduce the possibility of errors
> that are hard to detect (e.g. typos in a tag name).
>
> >
> > Several frameworks do that, including Nevow and Quixote.
>
> Not exactly... Quixote just embeds markup in docstrings.
>
>
>
> > Ah, Genshi is the ticket for that.  Most frameworks also allow you to
> > put Tidy in as middleware.  I use to do that in Aquarium in
> > development mode.
>
> Genshi is similiar. But I don't need it since I have my own equivalent
> (and it's also used here at Google ;-)
>
>
> > No insult, Keith, but I think the problem with Python Web frameworks
> > is that it's simply more fun to write your own than to take the time
> > to learn someone else's.
>
> Well, yes, there's that too. ;-)

No insult, but it just makes me very sad to see this wheel constantly
recreated when clearly the functionality you want is easily achievable
using what's already out there.  When you create another framework, it
means that you won't be contributing to an existing framework, which
is a net loss.

It reminds me of the fact that everyone buys SUVs to keep their
families safe, but it's really at the cost of the safety of everyone
else.  Hmm, maybe that's stretching it a bit far, but it still makes
me sad.

Well, good luck with that.

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From bob at redivi.com  Thu Mar  1 01:40:06 2007
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:40:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290702281640p5e5559ffm13be86a5431af7a8@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/28/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 15:55 PST:
> ===
> > Pylons can do all of those things, without constricting you to *just*
> > those things.  Welcome to the wonderful world of Web framework
> > creators ;)  I'm guilty as well ;)
>
> ===
>
> What I didn't like about Pylons is that embeds the assumption that
> you're using threads. I don't like threads, and this framework uses
> multiple processes instead. One reason for this is explained very well
> here:
>
> http://poshmodule.sourceforge.net/posh/html/node1.html
>
> I also prefer it for security reasons (having multiple servers each
> running as a different user, in a different chroot).

That's why you run pools of threaded servers with a load balancer in
front... You're going to want to do blocking operations at some point,
especially SQL stuff, so you're going to need threads for that.
Assuming you don't want to write everything in a Twisted sort of
style, a model where you have N processes with M threads is most
practical.

Technically Pylons doesn't "assume threads" it just supports them by
proxying all of the globals that wouldn't otherwise be threadsafe. It
assumes a WSGI server. Technically you shouldn't really even need
globals if you pass around the WSGI environ everywhere, but globals
are a bit more practical and easier to use than accessor functions
around an environ.

If you really wanted to go crazy you could just use Erlang instead,
where you trade Python's nice syntax and libraries for some pretty
spectacular scalability and a nice process model with code reloading
that Just Works. I use Erlang for the crazy behind-the-scenes stuff
with our service (which generates only SWF files and JSON), but the
front-end that our users interact with is all Pylons. The front-end
needs to serve maybe five or six orders of magnitude less traffic and
doesn't have the same kind of strict latency requirements.

> I also like Django style regular-expression URL mapping. But it
> does not have a reverse function or mapping. My framework uses Django
> style mapping to cleanly map URL paths to callables, and can also go in
> reverse (provide the callable and get the URL that will get to it).

I'm sure you could do that with Pylons if you really wanted to, routes
is just the default routing middleware. I'm not sure when you'd want
callable to URL mapping though? I've never even thought of wanting
such a thing.

> I also don't like templates because it's difficult to guarantee
> standards compliance. This framework allows you to construct pages
> using pure Python code. The result is guaranteed to comply with the
> selected DTD (XML bases: eg. XHTML or WML), or else fail.

That's pretty much what XML template systems like Genshi (Kid, ZPT,
etc.) do except you get a much better development experience and web
designer integration than you do with a bunch of Python expressions
that end up as {W,XT,HT}ML eventually.

-bob

From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar  1 02:03:35 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:03:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290702281640p5e5559ffm13be86a5431af7a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281640p5e5559ffm13be86a5431af7a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070228170335.1d2d6ecc@psyche.corp.google.com>

Bob Ippolito wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 16:40 PST:
===
> I'm sure you could do that with Pylons if you really wanted to, routes
> is just the default routing middleware. I'm not sure when you'd want
> callable to URL mapping though? I've never even thought of wanting
> such a thing.

===

Well, the real goal of this framework is to enable a Python developer
that might not know XHTML in detail to churn out custom web interfaces
as quickly and easily as possible. So, a simple mapping to a handler
function (or callable class instance) is a nice way to do it. That's
how Django does it and since I've been using Django I'm used to that
paradigm. 

-- 

-- ------------------------------
Keith Dart
<dart at google.com>
GPG Key Id: 57C0417D
"I need some %s." % hex(12648430)
=================================

From bob at redivi.com  Thu Mar  1 02:12:13 2007
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:12:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <20070228170335.1d2d6ecc@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281640p5e5559ffm13be86a5431af7a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228170335.1d2d6ecc@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290702281712q31bcf46w32a994299680d764@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/28/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Bob Ippolito wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 16:40 PST:
> ===
> > I'm sure you could do that with Pylons if you really wanted to, routes
> > is just the default routing middleware. I'm not sure when you'd want
> > callable to URL mapping though? I've never even thought of wanting
> > such a thing.
>
> ===
>
> Well, the real goal of this framework is to enable a Python developer
> that might not know XHTML in detail to churn out custom web interfaces
> as quickly and easily as possible. So, a simple mapping to a handler
> function (or callable class instance) is a nice way to do it. That's
> how Django does it and since I've been using Django I'm used to that
> paradigm.

That sounds like the same paradigm that Routes has. Maybe a different
syntax? I haven't looked very hard at Django because their ORM is
worthless for my apps and I don't like their template language.

-bob

From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar  1 02:51:45 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:51:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702281646t3551eb15l669eb4f821347364@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90702281620h35b84612ja620dfd39f813f52@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228163732.77a8777e@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90702281646t3551eb15l669eb4f821347364@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070228175145.173cd393@psyche.corp.google.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 16:46 PST:
===
> No insult, but it just makes me very sad to see this wheel constantly
> recreated when clearly the functionality you want is easily achievable
> using what's already out there.  When you create another framework, it
> means that you won't be contributing to an existing framework, which
> is a net loss.
===

Well, I actually had considered contributing some of this to Django.
But I changed the development paradigm too much.  It's completely
different and I don't think they would like or take the changes anyway.

And I got really tired of having to hard-code URL references and then
watch them break. 

Here's some sample code in this framework:

def reports(request, report):
  resp = core.ResponseDocument(request, title="pyNMS Selftest reports.")
  resp.content.new_para(str(report))
  resp.content.add_image(src=request.get_url("graphs.testplot"),
      alt="testplot") 
  return resp.finalize()

And that, really, is all there is to producing a valid XHTML page
with a graph in it. If the plot producer handler mapping ever changes
this code will still work.


In any case, what i did comes primarily from my experience with Django
and evolution is a natural process. ;-) BTW, I still like and use
Django ORM component.


-- 

-- ------------------------------
Keith Dart
<dart at google.com>
GPG Key Id: 57C0417D
"I need some %s." % hex(12648430)
=================================

From DOBrien at LeapFrog.com  Thu Mar  1 02:56:02 2007
From: DOBrien at LeapFrog.com (Dennis O'Brien)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:56:02 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] How to embed Flash Player Controls within a
	Pythonapp...
In-Reply-To: <484901.94943.qm@web54504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BE1590B3E7AEF54D9494467516DDC4DD5F7DE6@emw2k03ml04.LeapFrog.Local>

> From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org
[mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Kennedy
> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:11 PM
> To: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: [Baypiggies] How to embed Flash Player Controls within a
Pythonapp...
> 
> 
> Hi Python users,
> 
> I am seeking some help or at least direction.
> 
> I am developing a python application that is a learning center.
> 
> Part of the requirement is that it not be browser based.
> 
> Python seems to a practice choice so far.
> 
> The videos and screencast videos are going to be produced
> using the Camtasia Studio also requirement in a FLV/SWF format.
> 
> The learning center application needs to have embedded within
> its screen the video window. Found wxpython that allows the video
> to be called from a python.
> 
> The problem is that have not found any way to control the video?
> Typical controls play,stop, pause,rewind, fast forward etc...
> 
> Maybe I am missing it I have not found the controls within python 
> or wxpython to control a flash video.
> 
> Well, Python users any direction?
> 
> Your help is and will continue to be appreciated.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Doug
> 
> 
> P.S... I have been using this list for a couple of years now and it
has
> been of benefit in many ways thanks. I hope to in the future enjoy
your gatherings...

Hi Doug,

This might be more of a Flash ActionScript question than a Python
question.  ActionScript has a class called ExternalInterface which
allows two way communication between Flash and the hosting application
(web browser, wxPython, whatever).  There is a simple how-to with sample
code in several languages (including Python) over at OSFlash.org (a
great mailing list about Flash and Open Source)
http://osflash.org/ext_howto

Googling 'flash python externalinterface' will give you a lot of useful
ideas as well.

Hope this helps.

--Dennis
 

From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar  1 03:00:26 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:00:26 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290702281712q31bcf46w32a994299680d764@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281640p5e5559ffm13be86a5431af7a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228170335.1d2d6ecc@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281712q31bcf46w32a994299680d764@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070228180026.0afd1490@psyche.corp.google.com>

Bob Ippolito wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 17:12 PST:
===
> That sounds like the same paradigm that Routes has. Maybe a different
> syntax? I haven't looked very hard at Django because their ORM is
> worthless for my apps and I don't like their template language.

===

Yes, other frameworks do the same thing. The Django ORM is nice in some
ways, but also a real problem. It helps to get started quickly, but
it's not as flexible as we would have liked. We did a lot of stuff to
work around it though....


BTW, we also use, and this framework is (will be) designed to use
MochiKit. I like it a lot. Thanks a lot for that. :-) I intend, in the
future, to seamlessly integrate some Python methods to client-side
Javascript in keeping with the goal that a pure-Python developer can
create a reasonably nice web app without knowing javascript or XHTML or
CSS at all.





-- 

-- ------------------------------
Keith Dart
<dart at google.com>
GPG Key Id: 57C0417D
"I need some %s." % hex(12648430)
=================================

From bob at redivi.com  Thu Mar  1 03:06:50 2007
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:06:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <20070228180026.0afd1490@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281640p5e5559ffm13be86a5431af7a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228170335.1d2d6ecc@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281712q31bcf46w32a994299680d764@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228180026.0afd1490@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290702281806wc1669f2h60f140834ea03bf1@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/28/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Bob Ippolito wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 17:12 PST:
> ===
> > That sounds like the same paradigm that Routes has. Maybe a different
> > syntax? I haven't looked very hard at Django because their ORM is
> > worthless for my apps and I don't like their template language.
>
> ===
>
> Yes, other frameworks do the same thing. The Django ORM is nice in some
> ways, but also a real problem. It helps to get started quickly, but
> it's not as flexible as we would have liked. We did a lot of stuff to
> work around it though....
>

It sounds like your use case is pretty similar to mine, where you are
collecting and reporting on lots of data. I had to drop down to just
using SQL for that and doing some domain specific abstractions.  I'm
using SQLAlchemy, but really just because it gives me rows as dicts
and connection pooling without configuring anything other than the
connection string.

> BTW, we also use, and this framework is (will be) designed to use
> MochiKit. I like it a lot. Thanks a lot for that. :-) I intend, in the
> future, to seamlessly integrate some Python methods to client-side
> Javascript in keeping with the goal that a pure-Python developer can
> create a reasonably nice web app without knowing javascript or XHTML or
> CSS at all.

Sounds cool! Hopefully it's not too framework-specific, a lot of those
sorts of things can/should work on top of Just WSGI.

I've started to converted most my really low level Python webapps to
be just WSGI that I host on top of Pylons because of the EvalException
integration and the fact that it'll email me a traceback by default if
I have debug turned off.

-bob

From guido at python.org  Thu Mar  1 03:07:14 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:07:14 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Did anyone see the "Code like a Pythonista" tutorial
	at PyCon?
Message-ID: <ca471dc20702281807u5807113fr4793e8d1cd206c23@mail.gmail.com>

Please mail me privately what you thought of it.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 03:09:25 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:09:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <20070228180026.0afd1490@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281640p5e5559ffm13be86a5431af7a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228170335.1d2d6ecc@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281712q31bcf46w32a994299680d764@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228180026.0afd1490@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702281809s720fc20do8eefc824ef73eebe@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/28/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Bob Ippolito wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 17:12 PST:
> ===
> > That sounds like the same paradigm that Routes has. Maybe a different
> > syntax? I haven't looked very hard at Django because their ORM is
> > worthless for my apps and I don't like their template language.
>
> ===
>
> Yes, other frameworks do the same thing. The Django ORM is nice in some
> ways, but also a real problem. It helps to get started quickly, but
> it's not as flexible as we would have liked. We did a lot of stuff to
> work around it though....
>
>
> BTW, we also use, and this framework is (will be) designed to use
> MochiKit. I like it a lot. Thanks a lot for that. :-) I intend, in the
> future, to seamlessly integrate some Python methods to client-side
> Javascript in keeping with the goal that a pure-Python developer can
> create a reasonably nice web app without knowing javascript or XHTML or
> CSS at all.

I could never understand efforts to work around the need to make
developers more knowledgeable about their craft.  For instance,
reading the first 186 pages of "Dynamic HTML" is enough for any
developer to have a solid grounding in XHTML, CSS, and JavaScript.

Oh well.

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From bob at redivi.com  Thu Mar  1 03:13:42 2007
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:13:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] How to embed Flash Player Controls within a
	Pythonapp...
In-Reply-To: <BE1590B3E7AEF54D9494467516DDC4DD5F7DE6@emw2k03ml04.LeapFrog.Local>
References: <484901.94943.qm@web54504.mail.yahoo.com>
	<BE1590B3E7AEF54D9494467516DDC4DD5F7DE6@emw2k03ml04.LeapFrog.Local>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290702281813u447dde5buba1b076fd568522e@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/28/07, Dennis O'Brien <DOBrien at leapfrog.com> wrote:
> > From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org
> [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Kennedy
> > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:11 PM
> > To: baypiggies at python.org
> > Subject: [Baypiggies] How to embed Flash Player Controls within a
> Pythonapp...
> >
> >
> > Hi Python users,
> >
> > I am seeking some help or at least direction.
> >
> > I am developing a python application that is a learning center.
> >
> > Part of the requirement is that it not be browser based.
> >
> > Python seems to a practice choice so far.
> >
> > The videos and screencast videos are going to be produced
> > using the Camtasia Studio also requirement in a FLV/SWF format.
> >
> > The learning center application needs to have embedded within
> > its screen the video window. Found wxpython that allows the video
> > to be called from a python.
> >
> > The problem is that have not found any way to control the video?
> > Typical controls play,stop, pause,rewind, fast forward etc...
> >
> > Maybe I am missing it I have not found the controls within python
> > or wxpython to control a flash video.
> >
> > Well, Python users any direction?
> >
> > Your help is and will continue to be appreciated.
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > P.S... I have been using this list for a couple of years now and it
> has
> > been of benefit in many ways thanks. I hope to in the future enjoy
> your gatherings...
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> This might be more of a Flash ActionScript question than a Python
> question.  ActionScript has a class called ExternalInterface which
> allows two way communication between Flash and the hosting application
> (web browser, wxPython, whatever).  There is a simple how-to with sample
> code in several languages (including Python) over at OSFlash.org (a
> great mailing list about Flash and Open Source)
> http://osflash.org/ext_howto
>
> Googling 'flash python externalinterface' will give you a lot of useful
> ideas as well.
>
> Hope this helps.

A possibly less painful way to do it would be to simply take advantage
of the XMLSocket support that Flash has and write a little TCP socket
server in Python that it connects to on loopback. The protocol is
really simple: null terminated XML documents (or null terminated
strings if you go down to onData). It's likely to be a lot more
straightforward that going through the Flash 8 ExternalInterface
stuff.

Regardless of what you do, you'll probably need to author a container
SWF file that enables the communication. MTASC (maybe in conjunction
with swfmill) is a suitable tool for doing that, if you don't have or
want to use Adobe's authoring product.

There are some minimal things you can do with Flash given just the COM
interface (global stop and play, setting of variables, maybe jumping
to a particular frame) but that's not a worthwhile path to pursue if
you're trying to control a FLV.

-bob

From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar  1 03:18:45 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:18:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290702281806wc1669f2h60f140834ea03bf1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281640p5e5559ffm13be86a5431af7a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228170335.1d2d6ecc@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281712q31bcf46w32a994299680d764@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228180026.0afd1490@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281806wc1669f2h60f140834ea03bf1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070228181845.589e6a14@psyche.corp.google.com>

Bob Ippolito wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 18:06 PST:
===
> Sounds cool! Hopefully it's not too framework-specific, a lot of those
> sorts of things can/should work on top of Just WSGI.

===

The server interface is WSGI. You can use WSGI middleware with it.
But, at the end of the chain I do what a most others do which is to
convert it into an easier to deal with request object.



-- 

-- ------------------------------
Keith Dart
<dart at google.com>
GPG Key Id: 57C0417D
"I need some %s." % hex(12648430)
=================================

From bob at redivi.com  Thu Mar  1 03:19:37 2007
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:19:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702281809s720fc20do8eefc824ef73eebe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281640p5e5559ffm13be86a5431af7a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228170335.1d2d6ecc@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281712q31bcf46w32a994299680d764@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228180026.0afd1490@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90702281809s720fc20do8eefc824ef73eebe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290702281819q579c18f3q19fc412dd2414150@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/28/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/28/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> > Bob Ippolito wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 17:12 PST:
> > ===
> > > That sounds like the same paradigm that Routes has. Maybe a different
> > > syntax? I haven't looked very hard at Django because their ORM is
> > > worthless for my apps and I don't like their template language.
> >
> > ===
> >
> > Yes, other frameworks do the same thing. The Django ORM is nice in some
> > ways, but also a real problem. It helps to get started quickly, but
> > it's not as flexible as we would have liked. We did a lot of stuff to
> > work around it though....
> >
> >
> > BTW, we also use, and this framework is (will be) designed to use
> > MochiKit. I like it a lot. Thanks a lot for that. :-) I intend, in the
> > future, to seamlessly integrate some Python methods to client-side
> > Javascript in keeping with the goal that a pure-Python developer can
> > create a reasonably nice web app without knowing javascript or XHTML or
> > CSS at all.
>
> I could never understand efforts to work around the need to make
> developers more knowledgeable about their craft.  For instance,
> reading the first 186 pages of "Dynamic HTML" is enough for any
> developer to have a solid grounding in XHTML, CSS, and JavaScript.
>

On the other hand you shouldn't need four hours (or days or weeks or
whatever) of training to do something conceptually simple. Cheap hacks
to get people in the door are a good way to motivate them to dive in
later.

-bob

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 03:26:36 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:26:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pyop
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702281826u291445dbq5fcfeeec87cb7bc2@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Everyone,

I'd like to avoid any more discussion about the Pyop mailing list.
The fork is happening, so there's no use crying over spilled milk.
Let's move on to talking about something interesting, like what you
learned at PyCon.

If you have anything more to say about Pyop, feel free to send it to
me off list.  The Pyop people should feel free to speak more about it
on their list.

Note, this does not mean I have any ill will to anyone on the Pyop
list.  Rather, I just want people to start talking more about Python
because I know that will make the majority of the users on this list
happier.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar  1 03:35:38 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:35:38 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702281809s720fc20do8eefc824ef73eebe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<c41f67b90702281555i60561d74j2a9629b4462e61a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161245.464d23d3@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281640p5e5559ffm13be86a5431af7a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228170335.1d2d6ecc@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<6a36e7290702281712q31bcf46w32a994299680d764@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228180026.0afd1490@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90702281809s720fc20do8eefc824ef73eebe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070228183538.37b14169@psyche.corp.google.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2007-02-28 at 18:09 PST:
===
> I could never understand efforts to work around the need to make
> developers more knowledgeable about their craft.  For instance,
> reading the first 186 pages of "Dynamic HTML" is enough for any
> developer to have a solid grounding in XHTML, CSS, and JavaScript.

===

This framework, like Python itself, will not necessary be used
exclusively by professional software developers. It may be used by
people working in other disciplines that might want to do some
scripting and might even want to put a web interface on it. They might
not want to read 186 pages of "Dynamic HTML". ;-)



-- 

-- ------------------------------
Keith Dart
<dart at google.com>
GPG Key Id: 57C0417D
"I need some %s." % hex(12648430)
=================================

From andywiggin at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 20:35:20 2007
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:35:20 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List
In-Reply-To: <997a56990702281616r5c3d8f1dkbeb724842d041254@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070227210246.6D4F91E400C@bag.python.org>
	<df774dc0b8fdcab980d9bf5934129555@cruzio.com>
	<a19c5c08377701432b0d10f8820b525b@well.com>
	<c41f67b90702281511x505e1b18vbf1fbfd920cf5bc2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161413.73aae056@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<997a56990702281616r5c3d8f1dkbeb724842d041254@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0703011135t1ba25268n9430c5cdcefd8de1@mail.gmail.com>

I saw this float by recently on http://www.quotationspage.com/qotd.html.

  "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat
us as equals."
  Sir Winston Churchill

Couldn't resist. -andy

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Mar  2 03:50:54 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:50:54 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pyop
Message-ID: <20070302025058.05C661E4004@bag.python.org>

Hi JJ et.al.,
----- On Wednesday, February 28, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:

> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I'd like to avoid any more discussion about the Pyop mailing list.
> The fork is happening, so there's no use crying over spilled milk.

Well, not necessarily.

I think we're still in position to withdraw the new list if JJ would like to institute democracy here.  JJ?  How about it?  How about adopting and adhering to the PyOP rules here?  Or something like them?

After all, the only benevolent dictator is the one who creates democracy and steps down.

I can't help saying that I'm amazed that you keep talking about the name of this list, after decreeing that discussion of the name should stop.  

But, since discussion about the name seems to be open to new material, I'll add that my worst association with "pig" is a "bullying, unthinking, mean cop".  When I've seen the admin for this list announce a rule with threats of expulsion rather than simply asking for cooperation, it does remind me of this meaning for word.  And I'm saddened because the dominant/submissant model is being perpetuated among my friends and colleagues.

Back to democracy, when I was in 9th grade in suburbian LA, we were required to take a "civics" class.  There was material about the structure of our government, but also about Robert's Rules of Order, and specifically, how to start and run a club using these rules so that the club can flourish. We were required to join a club, with extra credit for starting a club.  I did start one and I remember I didn't like the name of that one either.  The name was decided according to Robert's Rules.  I think the name was "Adorians" or something way too cute.  We were all girls.

I understand that Robert's Rules were deleted from the required curriculum long ago.

Too bad.  Lacking this sort of experience, we are complacent about being under the thumb of a dictator, or a President who stole the election with fraud.

I suppose this is my last-ditch-effort to keep the list together.

Marilyn

p.s. When is the ETA for the announce list?


> Let's move on to talking about something interesting, like what you
> learned at PyCon.
> 
> If you have anything more to say about Pyop, feel free to send it to
> me off list.  The Pyop people should feel free to speak more about it
> on their list.
> 
> Note, this does not mean I have any ill will to anyone on the Pyop
> list.  Rather, I just want people to start talking more about Python
> because I know that will make the majority of the users on this list
> happier.
> 
> Best Regards,
> -jj
> 
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From aleax at google.com  Fri Mar  2 05:22:55 2007
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 20:22:55 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List
In-Reply-To: <74e7428a0703011135t1ba25268n9430c5cdcefd8de1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070227210246.6D4F91E400C@bag.python.org>
	<df774dc0b8fdcab980d9bf5934129555@cruzio.com>
	<a19c5c08377701432b0d10f8820b525b@well.com>
	<c41f67b90702281511x505e1b18vbf1fbfd920cf5bc2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161413.73aae056@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<997a56990702281616r5c3d8f1dkbeb724842d041254@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0703011135t1ba25268n9430c5cdcefd8de1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0703012022s3874db1br919d9242373bf8cc@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/1/07, Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com> wrote:
> I saw this float by recently on http://www.quotationspage.com/qotd.html.
>
>   "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat
> us as equals."
>   Sir Winston Churchill

As a "Pearls Before Swine" enthusiast, I can't help loving Pig (and,
by extension, pigs): he's the modern incarnation of the Bear of Little
Brain.

Besides, I spent my childhood spending summers at grandpa's farm (even
though I was a city kid).  Being a morning person even then, I was
typically the second person in the household to wake up right after
grampa (I woke up at dawn, he a little bit earlier).  I sneaked down
to the huge kitchen (biggest room of the house in traditional Italian
farms) where grampa would typically be having his breakfast -- salami
or prosciutto, red wine, yesterday's bread carefully roasted.  He'd
shush me and feed me bread and salami (and a heavily watered glass of
wine -- he had little time for these foreign stuff like coffee -- so
if you ever wonder about my mental abilities, it's all grampa's fault
for having me drink wine when I was little!-).

Then we'd go out in the glorious hills, let the chickens and the cows
and the pigs (and sometimes the pheasants and the geese and the sheep
&c, if he was raising any that year, but pigs, cows and chickens were,
well, staples) out of their nightly shelters, and if needed provide
food and other services.  We couldn't always take the time to lead the
pigs to roam in the woods (feeding on acorns &c) and frolic in the
stream (it would take a long time to herd them back in the evening),
so often we'd feed them our leftovers (they can eat and enjoy anything
people can!) and spray water from a hose so they could play under it
and make themselves clean (pigs' smell is distinctive, but they're
only dirty if they're denied access to sufficient water: they enjoy
water and cleanliness as much as people do, I learned during those
summers).  Feeding cows and chicken &c was fun for this city boy...
but nothing compared to the sheer joy of feeding pigs.

And when a sow had suckling piglets, THAT was the best: after he's
done suckling, each piglet walks to mom's snout and *kisses* her in
thanks.  I swear.  It's the sweetest, most heart-rending animal scene
I've ever witnessed in my life, and it happened to me at a very
impressionable age, and repeatedly.

Some of you may wonder why I didn't become a vegetarian, but that's
about grampa again: he enjoyed his animals' antics and individuality
just as much as I did, but that would never stop him from enjoying his
salame, prosciutto, roast chicken, etc.  He was keenly aware of his
*lettuce* being alive and unique, too... that didn't stop him from
having a salad as a side dish to pork chops... that we kill and eat
what we cherish and love was second nature to him, as, I guess, befits
a farmer who also raises animals, hunts, etc.  I knew perfectly well
that the incredible, wonderful prosciutto I was eating had recently
been a frolicking piglet... I was faced with the omnivore's tragedy
and wonder much more starkly than most city kids ever are, just by
having a farmer grampa living close enough to the city that we spent
all summers at the farm.

Anybody whose perception of "pigs" (or any other animal, or vegetal
species) is chiefly symbolical, metaphorical, and indirect, has my
sympathy and condolences.  Each species has its wonders and tragedies,
and if you can't perceive it _as itself_ any more, because metaphors
about it have conquered your brain, then your experience of life is
proportionally diminished.  Penguins are waterfowl with uniquely
fascinating lives, not metaphors for Linux; pigs are amazingly
near-sentient and yet incredibly good-tasting quadrupeds, not
metaphors for cops, capitalists, or people who eat too much; if you
can't experience life itself because the metaphorical contents of
words takes over, you've proportionately renounced your status as an
actual living being in favour of being a "symbol-processing system".
Try Zen: if you undertake it seriously, experientially, and without
hidden agenda, it's a practice that _can_ "break the back of your
mind" and let you EXIST, LIVE, EXPERIENCE, rather than THINK, REASON,
PONDER.


Oink, oink,

Alex

From jim at well.com  Fri Mar  2 15:54:25 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:54:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Notice of Meeting March 8 at Google
Message-ID: <93058858a3b011b652249d97afa62c54@well.com>



Thursday, March 8, 2006
Location: Google

Agenda-----------------------------

7:30 PM to 8:40 PM
Topic: PyCon Reports
Speakers: JJ, Jason, Drew (and with luck Wesley and Ken and others)

About the talk
Anyone who's gone to PyCon 2007 is welcome to report your experiences 
(on topic, hopefully).

http://www.python.org/pycon/
http://chipy.org/ChiPyCon_2008_Bid
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/search/label/pycon2007


8:40 PM to 9:00 PM
Event: Mapping/Random Access

Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics the announcer 
is interested in.
Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually on 
topics of interest.

The April Meeting planning
The April meeting may be newbies night, pending discussion. There's 
plenty of interest, let's settle structure and content for the meeting 
as well as pre-meeting promotion to other communities (LUGs, schools, 
etc.)


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 18:52:49 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:52:49 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Notice of Meeting March 8 at Google
In-Reply-To: <93058858a3b011b652249d97afa62c54@well.com>
References: <93058858a3b011b652249d97afa62c54@well.com>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0703020952v41233364iaedacf7d632c4712@mail.gmail.com>

OK guys..I'll get that online tonight...

Donna

On 3/2/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thursday, March 8, 2006
> Location: Google
>
> Agenda-----------------------------
>
> 7:30 PM to 8:40 PM
> Topic: PyCon Reports
> Speakers: JJ, Jason, Drew (and with luck Wesley and Ken and others)
>
> About the talk
> Anyone who's gone to PyCon 2007 is welcome to report your experiences
> (on topic, hopefully).
>
> http://www.python.org/pycon/
> http://chipy.org/ChiPyCon_2008_Bid
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/search/label/pycon2007
>
>
> 8:40 PM to 9:00 PM
> Event: Mapping/Random Access
>
> Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics the announcer
> is interested in.
> Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually on
> topics of interest.
>
> The April Meeting planning
> The April meeting may be newbies night, pending discussion. There's
> plenty of interest, let's settle structure and content for the meeting
> as well as pre-meeting promotion to other communities (LUGs, schools,
> etc.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 23:31:40 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:31:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pyop
In-Reply-To: <20070302025058.05C661E4004@bag.python.org>
References: <20070302025058.05C661E4004@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703021431h7072c75fi5141cf806f9caa04@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/1/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> Hi JJ et.al.,
> ----- On Wednesday, February 28, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Hey Everyone,
> >
> > I'd like to avoid any more discussion about the Pyop mailing list.
> > The fork is happening, so there's no use crying over spilled milk.
>
> Well, not necessarily.
>
> I think we're still in position to withdraw the new list if JJ would like to institute democracy here.  JJ?  How about it?  How about adopting and adhering to the PyOP rules here?  Or something like them?

I think a democracy is something that should be chosen.  It shouldn't
be forced upon you.  If you start the PyOP list, it's a wonderful
opportunity for other people to choose which type of mailing list
they'd like to participate in.

A benevolent dictator must do some average of "what's best for his
people" and "what they actually want".  In this case, it is clear that
many people want things to "just work", without the strenuous activity
of constantly voting on things.  If people have issues, they can just
raise them to me.  I will either fix them, or I will ask for advice
from the list.

Hence, I think the best course of action is to keep the current list
as it is.  Anyone who wants to join a democracy is welcome to join
your list.  I will continue to harbor no ill will.  If I suddenly
force a democracy upon this list, I know for a fact that many people
will quickly grow irritated with the constant politics.  Violating the
will of the people is clearly not democratic.  Let them vote for
themselves by willingly joining your list.

(moderator hat on:)
Anyone who disagrees with this decision is free to email me
personally.  In the name of good netiquette, I'm going to ask politely
one more time that there be no more discussion about PyOP on the
BayPiggies list.  Use the PyOP list instead.

> After all, the only benevolent dictator is the one who creates democracy and steps down.
>
> I can't help saying that I'm amazed that you keep talking about the name of this list, after decreeing that discussion of the name should stop.

I think people are sharing their lovable memories of pigs.  I'm happy
to hear more.  Alex's story was quite nice ;)

> But, since discussion about the name seems to be open to new material, I'll add that my worst association with "pig" is a "bullying, unthinking, mean cop".

In English, we have many words with multiple meanings.  Some of those
meanings are hateful.  Hateful language is not permitted on any
@python.org mailing list.  The term "PIG" as applied to either the
animal or "Python interest group" is permitted on this mailing list.
The derogatory term for police officers is off limits.

> When I've seen the admin for this list announce a rule with threats of expulsion rather than simply asking for cooperation, it does remind me of this meaning for word.

I haven't threatened to expel anyone.  I am indeed asking politely for
cooperation.

PyOP members are allowed to stay as long as they like.  However, PyOP
is not an appropriate topic for the BayPiggies list.  Nor is hateful
language directed toward police officers.

It brings me great sadness to say this, but continued disregard for
these basic rules will result in moderation.  In the "real world", you
are liable for your speech (e.g. yelling "fire" in a crowded
restaurant).  On a mailing list, my only option is to turn on
moderation or expel users.  I would *really, really* hate to have to
turn on moderation.

Rather, it's best to constrain PyOP discussions to the PyOP list.

> And I'm saddened because the dominant/submissant model is being perpetuated among my friends and colleagues.
>
> Back to democracy, when I was in 9th grade in suburbian LA, we were required to take a "civics" class.  There was material about the structure of our government, but also about Robert's Rules of Order, and specifically, how to start and run a club using these rules so that the club can flourish. We were required to join a club, with extra credit for starting a club.  I did start one and I remember I didn't like the name of that one either.  The name was decided according to Robert's Rules.  I think the name was "Adorians" or something way too cute.  We were all girls.
>
> I understand that Robert's Rules were deleted from the required curriculum long ago.
>
> Too bad.  Lacking this sort of experience, we are complacent about being under the thumb of a dictator, or a President who stole the election with fraud.

If you are speaking about Bush, whether wrong or right, this is the
wrong forum to voice your complaints.

> I suppose this is my last-ditch-effort to keep the list together.
>
> Marilyn
>
> p.s. When is the ETA for the announce list?

I will consider myself "encouraged" to hurry up and get it done. ;)

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From asheesh at asheesh.org  Fri Mar  2 23:41:25 2007
From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:41:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pyop
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90703021431h7072c75fi5141cf806f9caa04@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070302025058.05C661E4004@bag.python.org>
	<c41f67b90703021431h7072c75fi5141cf806f9caa04@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.0.82.0703021735250.28117@alchemy>

On Fri, 2 Mar 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Hence, I think the best course of action is to keep the current list as 
> it is.  Anyone who wants to join a democracy is welcome to join your 
> list.  I will continue to harbor no ill will.  If I suddenly force a 
> democracy upon this list, I know for a fact that many people will 
> quickly grow irritated with the constant politics.  Violating the will 
> of the people is clearly not democratic.  Let them vote for themselves 
> by willingly joining your list.

If this list becomes a democracy, I hereby grant all my voting and other 
personal powers for the next two years to JJ.  I like my Baypiggying with 
a minimum of effort from me.

> I think people are sharing their lovable memories of pigs.  I'm happy to 
> hear more.  Alex's story was quite nice ;)

On this matter I would like to contribute 
http://static.flickr.com/27/96532951_1039f9dd33_o.jpg .

-- Asheesh.

P.S. I will add Robert's Rules to my todo list of reading material.

-- 
Q:	What's a WASP's idea of open-mindedness?
A:	Dating a Canadian.

From rob at pcnt.com  Sat Mar  3 01:08:42 2007
From: rob at pcnt.com (Robert Taylor)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:08:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dreaming in Code
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200703021608.AA08420006@pcnt.com>

I recently had the pleasure of reading ?Dreaming in Code? by Scott 
Rosenberg.
 
He explores the question of why large software projects are so difficult, 
and uses the Open Source Applications Foundation's ?Chandler? project as a 
case study. I enjoyed the book, for its review of software development, the 
specific history of Chandler, and interesting anecdotes from computing 
history. The book does not pretend to offer any simple solutions, but does 
raise interesting questions, and entertains along the way.

What did you think of this book?
 
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From aleax at google.com  Sat Mar  3 01:24:35 2007
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 16:24:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dreaming in Code
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200703021608.AA08420006@pcnt.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200703021608.AA08420006@pcnt.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0703021624m577b420ara344fb5932fb098e@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/2/07, Robert Taylor <rob at pcnt.com> wrote:
>
>  I recently had the pleasure of reading "Dreaming in Code" by Scott
> Rosenberg.
>
>
>
> He explores the question of why large software projects are so difficult,
> and uses the Open Source Applications Foundation's "Chandler" project as a
> case study. I enjoyed the book, for its review of software development, the
> specific history of Chandler, and interesting anecdotes from computing
> history. The book does not pretend to offer any simple solutions, but does
> raise interesting questions, and entertains along the way.
>
>
>
> What did you think of this book?
>

It's an important read: it's important to realize that problems (feature
creep, slippage) can and do happen to good project (ones with good people
and several good choices of technologies and approaches).  We (collectively,
as a profession) need to learn from our (collective) mistakes, and mistakes
made by skilled people who have avoided many obvious pitfalls can be
particularly instructive.

Alex
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From warren at muse.com  Sat Mar  3 03:59:27 2007
From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:59:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pyop
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.0.82.0703021735250.28117@alchemy>
References: <20070302025058.05C661E4004@bag.python.org><c41f67b90703021431h7072c75fi5141cf806f9caa04@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.0.82.0703021735250.28117@alchemy>
Message-ID: <002b01c75d3f$f4d12ae0$240110ac@Muse>


>On this matter I would like to contribute 
>http://static.flickr.com/27/96532951_1039f9dd33_o.jpg .
>
>-- Asheesh.

I watched this twice to confirm that, yes, pigs do fly in the USSR. (uhm
could fly ... did fly)

Where is this from? Looks like another incomplete Eisenstein movie.


From warren at muse.com  Sat Mar  3 03:49:12 2007
From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 18:49:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dreaming in Code
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0703021624m577b420ara344fb5932fb098e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200703021608.AA08420006@pcnt.com>
	<55dc209b0703021624m577b420ara344fb5932fb098e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601c75d3e$8652b030$240110ac@Muse>

Scott Rosenberg will be at the Hillside club, this Sunday, with Eric Allman,
and others: http://www.hillsideclub.org/blog/?p=24 

 

  _____  

From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org]
On Behalf Of Alex Martelli
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 4:25 PM
To: Robert Taylor
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Dreaming in Code

 

On 3/2/07, Robert Taylor <rob at pcnt.com> wrote:

I recently had the pleasure of reading "Dreaming in Code" by Scott
Rosenberg. 

  

He explores the question of why large software projects are so difficult,
and uses the Open Source Applications Foundation's "Chandler" project as a
case study. I enjoyed the book, for its review of software development, the
specific history of Chandler, and interesting anecdotes from computing
history. The book does not pretend to offer any simple solutions, but does
raise interesting questions, and entertains along the way. 

  

What did you think of this book?

 

It's an important read: it's important to realize that problems (feature
creep, slippage) can and do happen to good project (ones with good people
and several good choices of technologies and approaches).  We (collectively,
as a profession) need to learn from our (collective) mistakes, and mistakes
made by skilled people who have avoided many obvious pitfalls can be
particularly instructive. 

Alex

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URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20070302/8cdcfd44/attachment-0001.html 

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 04:54:03 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 19:54:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>

OK guys..

As you all know I've been working with Plone since 2001..

I'm am striving for a new level here and must learn Python in order to
get there...

I've tried but I just get so distracted when reading tutorials online
or any of the many Python books I own... I need a sit down and listen
to an instructor course that'll teach me what I need in an immersing
way.... does anyone know where a non-programmer can get such training?

hmm?

Thank You!

Best Regards,
Donna M. Snow, Owner
C Squared Enterprises
illuminate your web
http://www.csquaredtech.com

From keith at dartworks.biz  Sat Mar  3 05:15:27 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 20:15:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dreaming in Code
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200703021608.AA08420006@pcnt.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200703021608.AA08420006@pcnt.com>
Message-ID: <20070302201527.61678e2c@psyche.corp.google.com>

Robert Taylor wrote the following on 2007-03-02 at 16:08 PST:
===
> I recently had the pleasure of reading ?Dreaming in Code? by Scott 
> Rosenberg.
>  
===

I thought I was dreaming... but then I realized that I really was up at
2 am writing code... 

;-)



-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From aleax at google.com  Sat Mar  3 05:56:03 2007
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 20:56:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0703022056v2f16e7f6l55ca5dc7a749dd61@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/2/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> OK guys..
>
> As you all know I've been working with Plone since 2001..
>
> I'm am striving for a new level here and must learn Python in order to
> get there...
>
> I've tried but I just get so distracted when reading tutorials online
> or any of the many Python books I own... I need a sit down and listen
> to an instructor course that'll teach me what I need in an immersing
> way.... does anyone know where a non-programmer can get such training?

Marylin (when not busy forking mailing lists:-) teaches just such a
course at UCSC Extension, about which I've heard good things.  You may
want to mail her and check when and where and how much for the next
opportunity.


Alex

From doug at apley.com  Sat Mar  3 05:37:18 2007
From: doug at apley.com (Douglas Sims)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:37:18 -0600
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0703012022s3874db1br919d9242373bf8cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070227210246.6D4F91E400C@bag.python.org>
	<df774dc0b8fdcab980d9bf5934129555@cruzio.com>
	<a19c5c08377701432b0d10f8820b525b@well.com>
	<c41f67b90702281511x505e1b18vbf1fbfd920cf5bc2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070228161413.73aae056@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<997a56990702281616r5c3d8f1dkbeb724842d041254@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0703011135t1ba25268n9430c5cdcefd8de1@mail.gmail.com>
	<55dc209b0703012022s3874db1br919d9242373bf8cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51035B6E-CE4D-44B5-887B-8F9F7AC2E50F@apley.com>



1) That was a fine piece of writing.  I read it first thing this  
morning and it brought back memories of my early childhood in rural  
North Carolina (picture Opie Taylor) which I savored all day.  Alex  
should write a food cookbook in addition to his Python cookbook.

2) I just posted Asheesh's Russian Rocket Pig to Reddit - I hope  
someone will post a comment with more information about that sightly  
bizarre scene.

3) I haven't read Dreaming in Code but I plan on getting a copy this  
weekend, prompted by the discussion here.

4) I am looking forward to the meeting this Thursday.  I didn't make  
it to PyCon (despite sitting on a plane at the Denver airport which  
took a long time to not go to Dallas) but I would like to hear more  
about the talks there - Turbogears and Tosca, Idiomatic Pythonistas,  
and I'm sure quite a few other topics.

5) This list has been full of useful and interesting posts lately.   
Thank you all and please, continue...


Douglas Sims
Doug at Apley.com
901 830-7287



On Mar 1, 2007, at 10:22 PM, Alex Martelli wrote:

> On 3/1/07, Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I saw this float by recently on http://www.quotationspage.com/ 
>> qotd.html.
>>
>>   "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat
>> us as equals."
>>   Sir Winston Churchill
>
> As a "Pearls Before Swine" enthusiast, I can't help loving Pig (and,
> by extension, pigs): he's the modern incarnation of the Bear of Little
> Brain.
>
> Besides, I spent my childhood spending summers at grandpa's farm (even
> though I was a city kid).  Being a morning person even then, I was
> typically the second person in the household to wake up right after
> grampa (I woke up at dawn, he a little bit earlier).  I sneaked down
> to the huge kitchen (biggest room of the house in traditional Italian
> farms) where grampa would typically be having his breakfast -- salami
> or prosciutto, red wine, yesterday's bread carefully roasted.  He'd
> shush me and feed me bread and salami (and a heavily watered glass of
> wine -- he had little time for these foreign stuff like coffee -- so
> if you ever wonder about my mental abilities, it's all grampa's fault
> for having me drink wine when I was little!-).
>
> Then we'd go out in the glorious hills, let the chickens and the cows
> and the pigs (and sometimes the pheasants and the geese and the sheep
> &c, if he was raising any that year, but pigs, cows and chickens were,
> well, staples) out of their nightly shelters, and if needed provide
> food and other services.  We couldn't always take the time to lead the
> pigs to roam in the woods (feeding on acorns &c) and frolic in the
> stream (it would take a long time to herd them back in the evening),
> so often we'd feed them our leftovers (they can eat and enjoy anything
> people can!) and spray water from a hose so they could play under it
> and make themselves clean (pigs' smell is distinctive, but they're
> only dirty if they're denied access to sufficient water: they enjoy
> water and cleanliness as much as people do, I learned during those
> summers).  Feeding cows and chicken &c was fun for this city boy...
> but nothing compared to the sheer joy of feeding pigs.
>
> And when a sow had suckling piglets, THAT was the best: after he's
> done suckling, each piglet walks to mom's snout and *kisses* her in
> thanks.  I swear.  It's the sweetest, most heart-rending animal scene
> I've ever witnessed in my life, and it happened to me at a very
> impressionable age, and repeatedly.
>
> Some of you may wonder why I didn't become a vegetarian, but that's
> about grampa again: he enjoyed his animals' antics and individuality
> just as much as I did, but that would never stop him from enjoying his
> salame, prosciutto, roast chicken, etc.  He was keenly aware of his
> *lettuce* being alive and unique, too... that didn't stop him from
> having a salad as a side dish to pork chops... that we kill and eat
> what we cherish and love was second nature to him, as, I guess, befits
> a farmer who also raises animals, hunts, etc.  I knew perfectly well
> that the incredible, wonderful prosciutto I was eating had recently
> been a frolicking piglet... I was faced with the omnivore's tragedy
> and wonder much more starkly than most city kids ever are, just by
> having a farmer grampa living close enough to the city that we spent
> all summers at the farm.
>
> Anybody whose perception of "pigs" (or any other animal, or vegetal
> species) is chiefly symbolical, metaphorical, and indirect, has my
> sympathy and condolences.  Each species has its wonders and tragedies,
> and if you can't perceive it _as itself_ any more, because metaphors
> about it have conquered your brain, then your experience of life is
> proportionally diminished.  Penguins are waterfowl with uniquely
> fascinating lives, not metaphors for Linux; pigs are amazingly
> near-sentient and yet incredibly good-tasting quadrupeds, not
> metaphors for cops, capitalists, or people who eat too much; if you
> can't experience life itself because the metaphorical contents of
> words takes over, you've proportionately renounced your status as an
> actual living being in favour of being a "symbol-processing system".
> Try Zen: if you undertake it seriously, experientially, and without
> hidden agenda, it's a practice that _can_ "break the back of your
> mind" and let you EXIST, LIVE, EXPERIENCE, rather than THINK, REASON,
> PONDER.
>
>
> Oink, oink,
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From allison at shasta.stanford.edu  Sat Mar  3 05:24:57 2007
From: allison at shasta.stanford.edu (Dennis Allison)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 20:24:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0703022017480.16587-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>


David Beasley is teaching an intensive course "Python Bootcamp" May 21-25 
at Big Nerd Ranch in Atlanta,  You can check their website 
http://www.bignerdranch.com.  Check David's website too, 
http://www.dabeaz.com.  You may want to check with David about level--but 
my guess is that you will be fine.



On Fri, 2 Mar 2007, Donna Snow wrote:

> OK guys..
> 
> As you all know I've been working with Plone since 2001..
> 
> I'm am striving for a new level here and must learn Python in order to
> get there...
> 
> I've tried but I just get so distracted when reading tutorials online
> or any of the many Python books I own... I need a sit down and listen
> to an instructor course that'll teach me what I need in an immersing
> way.... does anyone know where a non-programmer can get such training?
> 
> hmm?
> 
> Thank You!
> 
> Best Regards,
> Donna M. Snow, Owner
> C Squared Enterprises
> illuminate your web
> http://www.csquaredtech.com
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From wescpy at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 07:58:50 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:58:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>

> I've tried but I just get so distracted when reading tutorials online
> or any of the many Python books I own... I need a sit down and listen
> to an instructor course that'll teach me what I need in an immersing
> way.... does anyone know where a non-programmer can get such training?


donna,

this is a good question.  on the flip side, i've developed what i
think is a really good course called "Introduction to Programming".
there is a "(using Python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not as
much about Python as it is about programming in general.

the problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
it's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  how do
you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
class?  i can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so most
technical folks *are* programmers!  so although i am ready to teach
such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.

just go to the website below, and click "Python Training".  look for
the "Intro to Programming using Python" class and click once more to
get a course description.  maybe if i can find a place to announce
this to, i can actually hold this 2-day course!!

in a dilemma,
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From mac at Wireless.Com  Sat Mar  3 08:38:33 2007
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 23:38:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>

Wesley,

I think one of the first things you may want to do, before you try to teach people anything, is to locate your "Shift" key.

It's usually the key just to the left of the "Z" key.  On my keyboard, there is also one to the right of the "/" key, giving me two opportunities to locate it.

Good luck!   ;-)

After you've found it, I'll be happy to suggest ways to use the "Shift" key(s) to improve your writing's legibility and conformance to English capitalization rules.

Can't hurt...

Best!

-Mike


On Fri, 2 Mar 2007, wesley chun wrote:

>> way.... does anyone know where a non-programmer can get such training?
>
>
> donna,
>
> this is a good question.  on the flip side, i've developed what i
> think is a really good course called "Introduction to Programming".
> there is a "(using Python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not as
> much about Python as it is about programming in general.
>
> the problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
> it's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  how do
> you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
> class?  i can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so most
> technical folks *are* programmers!  so although i am ready to teach
> such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.
>
> just go to the website below, and click "Python Training".  look for
> the "Intro to Programming using Python" class and click once more to
> get a course description.  maybe if i can find a place to announce
> this to, i can actually hold this 2-day course!!
>
> in a dilemma,
> -- wesley

From annaraven at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 09:03:10 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:03:10 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703030003i63580c50mfff9637814829914@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/2/07, Mike Cheponis <mac at wireless.com> wrote:
>
>
> Can't hurt...


but being rude can.

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From mac at Wireless.Com  Sat Mar  3 09:42:13 2007
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:42:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703030003i63580c50mfff9637814829914@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
	<cb361a610703030003i63580c50mfff9637814829914@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703030034490.5116@S.culver.net>

I was trying really hard to be _sure_ to put the  ;-) in there, and I _know_ Wesley's a very cool chap (even if he can't reliably locate his Shift key... ;-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-) )

I suppose it's hard, via email, to express the playfulness and fun of life - for whatever reason, people seem to take email so damn seriously!

But, it's all in jest.

As you know, I don't have a rude bone in my body - but a funny bone?  Well, I've got several of those.  ;-);-);-);-)

(I probably have a pig bone in there, too, but that's an entirely different matter... ;-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-)  (That's a joke!!!)

;-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-)

(JOKE!!!!!)  ;-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-)

-Mike



On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Anna Ravenscroft wrote:

> Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:03:10 -0800
> From: Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com>
> To: Mike Cheponis <mac at wireless.com>
> Cc: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
> 
> On 3/2/07, Mike Cheponis <mac at wireless.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Can't hurt...
>
>
> but being rude can.
>
> -- 
> cordially,
> Anna
> --
> It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
>


From geverscott at foothill.edu  Sat Mar  3 09:14:59 2007
From: geverscott at foothill.edu (Scott Gever)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 00:14:59 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <45E92E83.7030002@foothill.edu>

I sure hope this was an inside joke because from where I'm sitting, the 
suggestion box needs to be nailed to your forehead.

-- Scott

Berkeley EECS
Adjunct Professor/Educator
Engineer
Author


Mike Cheponis wrote:
> Wesley,
>
> I think one of the first things you may want to do, before you try to teach people anything, is to locate your "Shift" key.
>
> It's usually the key just to the left of the "Z" key.  On my keyboard, there is also one to the right of the "/" key, giving me two opportunities to locate it.
>
> Good luck!   ;-)
>
> After you've found it, I'll be happy to suggest ways to use the "Shift" key(s) to improve your writing's legibility and conformance to English capitalization rules.
>
> Can't hurt...
>
> Best!
>
> -Mike
>
>
> On Fri, 2 Mar 2007, wesley chun wrote:
>
>   
>>> way.... does anyone know where a non-programmer can get such training?
>>>       
>> donna,
>>
>> this is a good question.  on the flip side, i've developed what i
>> think is a really good course called "Introduction to Programming".
>> there is a "(using Python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not as
>> much about Python as it is about programming in general.
>>
>> the problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
>> it's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  how do
>> you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
>> class?  i can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so most
>> technical folks *are* programmers!  so although i am ready to teach
>> such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.
>>
>> just go to the website below, and click "Python Training".  look for
>> the "Intro to Programming using Python" class and click once more to
>> get a course description.  maybe if i can find a place to announce
>> this to, i can actually hold this 2-day course!!
>>
>> in a dilemma,
>> -- wesley
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>   
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 09:47:04 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:47:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703030034490.5116@S.culver.net>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
	<cb361a610703030003i63580c50mfff9637814829914@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703030034490.5116@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703030047w5f100432hd29d9a8d393de1b8@mail.gmail.com>

correcting people's grammar and use of the shift key is often taken as rude,
regardless of how many smilicons you insert. ;-)

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From mac at Wireless.Com  Sat Mar  3 09:52:11 2007
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:52:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703030047w5f100432hd29d9a8d393de1b8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com> 
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net> 
	<cb361a610703030003i63580c50mfff9637814829914@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703030034490.5116@S.culver.net>
	<cb361a610703030047w5f100432hd29d9a8d393de1b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703030048280.5116@S.culver.net>

i think you misunderstand.

i was doing no correcting.

i was observing.

and _trying_ to get others to see the humor in the situation.

i can see that email is not the way to communicate this sort of humor to a larger group.

but, rude?  Not me, not my style.   Playful?  Funny?  Joyful?  Guilty!

-Mike


On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Anna Ravenscroft wrote:

> Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:47:04 -0800
> From: Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com>
> To: Mike Cheponis <mac at wireless.com>
> Cc: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
> 
> correcting people's grammar and use of the shift key is often taken as rude,
> regardless of how many smilicons you insert. ;-)
>
> -- 
> cordially,
> Anna
> --
> It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
>


From mikeal at osafoundation.org  Sat Mar  3 09:41:32 2007
From: mikeal at osafoundation.org (Mikeal Rogers)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 00:41:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dreaming in Code
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0703021624m577b420ara344fb5932fb098e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200703021608.AA08420006@pcnt.com>
	<55dc209b0703021624m577b420ara344fb5932fb098e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <122EDAC8-4D5F-4171-AD0E-96A30E53474A@osafoundation.org>

On Mar 2, 2007, at 4:24 PM, Alex Martelli wrote:

> On 3/2/07, Robert Taylor <rob at pcnt.com> wrote:
> I recently had the pleasure of reading "Dreaming in Code" by Scott  
> Rosenberg.
>
> He explores the question of why large software projects are so  
> difficult, and uses the Open Source Applications Foundation's  
> "Chandler" project as a case study. I enjoyed the book, for its  
> review of software development, the specific history of Chandler,  
> and interesting anecdotes from computing history. The book does not  
> pretend to offer any simple solutions, but does raise interesting  
> questions, and entertains along the way.
>
> What did you think of this book?
>
> It's an important read: it's important to realize that problems  
> (feature creep, slippage) can and do happen to good project (ones  
> with good people and several good choices of technologies and  
> approaches).  We (collectively, as a profession) need to learn from  
> our (collective) mistakes, and mistakes made by skilled people who  
> have avoided many obvious pitfalls can be particularly instructive.

I read the book too. It's of particular interest to me because it  
ends essentially right when I started working at OSAF.

<rant>

I'm going to state one observation. People who have been reviewing  
and commenting on the book continue to infer that some of the  
decision making practices were pitfalls to Chandler's, and OSAF in  
general's, development.

OSAF believes strongly in open source, particularly in _open_ open  
source. We can all name a dozen projects that have financial backing  
of some sort and conduct themselves as an "open source project", but  
have no real community to speak of ( a lack of any outside committer  
policy seems to be more and more common nowadays ).

Although OSAF seems to be more of a Cathedral than a Bazaar from the  
outside, the decision making process throughout design, product  
management, development, and QA is all done openly in a consensus  
seeking manor. Only matters of finance are done behind closed doors  
(and even those meetings have public meeting notes available on the  
OSAF wiki). This loads OSAF up with a lot of requirements on openness  
without a lot of the fast benefits of being open source in a BDFL  
model, which attributes to some of the slowness of initial  
development. But is my belief, as well as others here, that the end  
result is going to be worth the wait -- and if you don't like it, at  
least there is a process for you to be become a part of the process  
and make it better :)

I only comment on this now because I find myself more and more  
reverting to forks of open source projects, or complete rewrites, due  
to lack of community and process rather than faulty code and  
technology in open source. If I don't have the freedom to contribute  
a bug fix or feature in your open source project, you aren't open  
source project... period.

</rant>

<extended-rant>

Oh, and consulting firms... Yeah, creating an open source project  
that's half broken and having no open process to fix it so that you  
can collect consulting fees from those who use it is 100% evil.

</extended-rant>

I'm done now, going to sleep.

-Mikeal


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From annaraven at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 10:07:17 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 01:07:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703030048280.5116@S.culver.net>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
	<cb361a610703030003i63580c50mfff9637814829914@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703030034490.5116@S.culver.net>
	<cb361a610703030047w5f100432hd29d9a8d393de1b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703030048280.5116@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703030107t47babd1ds73bec33a03e8fcf4@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/3/07, Mike Cheponis <mac at wireless.com> wrote:
>
> i think you misunderstand.
>
> i was doing no correcting.
>
> i was observing.
>
> and _trying_ to get others to see the humor in the situation.
>
> i can see that email is not the way to communicate this sort of humor to a
> larger group.
>
> but, rude?  Not me, not my style.   Playful?  Funny?  Joyful?  Guilty!
>
> -Mike



My apologies for misunderstanding then. I've seen such corrections too often
to have realized that you intended it as a joke. Thanks for clarifying.



-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From asheesh at asheesh.org  Sat Mar  3 10:51:06 2007
From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 04:51:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703030034490.5116@S.culver.net>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
	<cb361a610703030003i63580c50mfff9637814829914@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703030034490.5116@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.0.82.0703030449330.28117@alchemy>

On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Mike Cheponis wrote:

> ;-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-);-)

Oh, I get it! (*)

-- Asheesh.

*. http://www.snpp.com/episodes/5F10

-- 
Q:	Are we not men?
A:	We are Vaxen.

From tbibha at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 11:18:45 2007
From: tbibha at gmail.com (bibha)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:48:45 +0530
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python projects to contribute to
Message-ID: <45E94B85.9080405@gmail.com>

Hi Folks,

Anyone knows about a good place to look for opensource/freelance 
projects I could contribute to?
I have done some Windows automation in Python and created some sys tools 
using the language - moving from an intermediate to advanced level.

Bibha

From keith at dartworks.biz  Sat Mar  3 15:16:44 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 06:16:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python projects to contribute to
In-Reply-To: <45E94B85.9080405@gmail.com>
References: <45E94B85.9080405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070303061644.4c856ebd@tinker.homenetwork>

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:48:45 +0530
bibha <tbibha at gmail.com> wrote:

> Anyone knows about a good place to look for opensource/freelance 
> projects I could contribute to?


http://code.google.com/hosting/search?q=label%3aPython


:-)


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From doug at apley.com  Sat Mar  3 16:45:46 2007
From: doug at apley.com (Douglas Sims)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 09:45:46 -0600
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pyop
In-Reply-To: <002b01c75d3f$f4d12ae0$240110ac@Muse>
References: <20070302025058.05C661E4004@bag.python.org><c41f67b90703021431h7072c75fi5141cf806f9caa04@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.0.82.0703021735250.28117@alchemy>
	<002b01c75d3f$f4d12ae0$240110ac@Muse>
Message-ID: <FAE08187-B384-43CB-882C-8354579F9E35@apley.com>


I posted this image to Reddit last night, where it made it as high as  
#11 (and maybe higher) before tailing off.

http://reddit.com/info/17kor/comments

In the comments someone suggested that these are stills from this  
movie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_on_the_Moon

This seems to me like the most plausible explanation.  These photos  
were very well done but somehow didn't seem exactly real.

Reddit = (more effective form of Amazon's Mechanical Turk)


Douglas Sims
Doug at Apley.com



On Mar 2, 2007, at 8:59 PM, Warren Stringer wrote:

>
>> On this matter I would like to contribute
>> http://static.flickr.com/27/96532951_1039f9dd33_o.jpg .
>>
>> -- Asheesh.
>
> I watched this twice to confirm that, yes, pigs do fly in the USSR.  
> (uhm
> could fly ... did fly)
>
> Where is this from? Looks like another incomplete Eisenstein movie.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 17:12:03 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:12:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python projects to contribute to
In-Reply-To: <45E94B85.9080405@gmail.com>
References: <45E94B85.9080405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703030812y1ac83a8eh7abb89febb51e508@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/3/07, bibha <tbibha at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Anyone knows about a good place to look for opensource/freelance
> projects I could contribute to?
> I have done some Windows automation in Python and created some sys tools
> using the language - moving from an intermediate to advanced level.

Scratch your own itch ;)

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 17:20:46 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:20:46 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703030820u2f148430n7089eaef3f4c6d88@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/2/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> OK guys..
>
> As you all know I've been working with Plone since 2001..
>
> I'm am striving for a new level here and must learn Python in order to
> get there...
>
> I've tried but I just get so distracted when reading tutorials online
> or any of the many Python books I own... I need a sit down and listen
> to an instructor course that'll teach me what I need in an immersing
> way.... does anyone know where a non-programmer can get such training?
>
> hmm?

It sounds like you're looking for an actual course.

I'd like to mention, though, that I've been dying to teach someone how
to program using this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Python-Programming-Introduction-Computer-Science/dp/1887902996/ref=pd_bbs_sr_10/002-6091106-5655261?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172938649&sr=8-10

I've taught people how to program in the past, but I do require that
you read the chapters and do the exercises on your own time.  That is,
I do more tutoring than lecturing.

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Mar  3 17:50:31 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 08:50:31 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python projects to contribute to
In-Reply-To: <45E94B85.9080405@gmail.com>
References: <45E94B85.9080405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070303165031.GB22885@panix.com>

On Sat, Mar 03, 2007, bibha wrote:
>
> Anyone knows about a good place to look for opensource/freelance 
> projects I could contribute to?

Try the Cheese Shop: http://www.python.org/pypi

Side note: if you want to contribute to Python directly, there are a LOT
of ways to help.  Start with

http://www.python.org/dev/
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From wescpy at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 19:49:24 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:49:24 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580703031049w74593b55j130999c0fd652294@mail.gmail.com>

> I think one of the first things you may want to do, before you try to teach people anything, is to locate your "Shift" key.


mike,

yes, i seem to have misplaced it.  (wonder how i could've *ever*
completed Core Python and have it published huh?)  LOL

anyway, several years ago, back in the good ol' days of the .com
world, i used to work from 10a-3a every day... company would buy us
dinner of course, but during the course of these mad coding days, i
had really not done my back any service, and the problems became so
severe that i had to see a specialist, who advised me that i may be
pressing down on the keyboard too hard.

after introspection, it turns out that i overly-used the shift key
(not only pressing down on it too hard and holding down on it for too
long, but also in an unbalanced way).  since then i have stopped using
the shift key whenever possible and even switched to using the mouse
with my left hand, something not too easy to do, esp. since i didn't
want to swap the button configuration.

so apologies to those who are offending by my lack of capitalization,
but i'd rather be communicating to you in my limited capacity than to
be completely silent.

cheers,
-wesley

From mikeal at osafoundation.org  Sat Mar  3 19:53:04 2007
From: mikeal at osafoundation.org (Mikeal Rogers)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 10:53:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python projects to contribute to
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90703030812y1ac83a8eh7abb89febb51e508@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45E94B85.9080405@gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90703030812y1ac83a8eh7abb89febb51e508@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1D058CA9-1F98-44B5-8B3A-7C143C225BAF@osafoundation.org>

> On 3/3/07, bibha <tbibha at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> Anyone knows about a good place to look for opensource/freelance
>> projects I could contribute to?
>> I have done some Windows automation in Python and created some sys  
>> tools
>> using the language - moving from an intermediate to advanced level.
>
> Scratch your own itch ;)

I can't agree more. You'll never be more into a project than one that  
you created because you needed it and nobody else has written it yet.

Pick something hard that you don't know how to do yet, it's easy to  
learn new things in python :)

But if you're set on working on someone else's propject a lot of the  
bigger projects are getting ready for google summer of code, and  
writing up long lists of new features for people to dig in to. Only a  
fraction of the features will get picked up by SoC and that will  
leave a list of tasks for enterprising open source developers to grab  
up and work on in their free time.

Our list in progress is here if you're interested http:// 
wiki.osafoundation.org/Journal/TedLeung20060127

-Mikeal
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From jim at well.com  Sat Mar  3 20:20:34 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:20:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90703030820u2f148430n7089eaef3f4c6d88@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90703030820u2f148430n7089eaef3f4c6d88@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <106b19bedba0252cf715a5e7220f74e1@well.com>


i wanna play, too.

On Mar 3, 2007, at 8:20 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> On 3/2/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
>> OK guys..
>>
>> As you all know I've been working with Plone since 2001..
>>
>> I'm am striving for a new level here and must learn Python in order to
>> get there...
>>
>> I've tried but I just get so distracted when reading tutorials online
>> or any of the many Python books I own... I need a sit down and listen
>> to an instructor course that'll teach me what I need in an immersing
>> way.... does anyone know where a non-programmer can get such training?
>>
>> hmm?
>
> It sounds like you're looking for an actual course.
>
> I'd like to mention, though, that I've been dying to teach someone how
> to program using this book:
> http://www.amazon.com/Python-Programming-Introduction-Computer- 
> Science/dp/1887902996/ref=pd_bbs_sr_10/002-6091106-5655261? 
> ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172938649&sr=8-10
>
> I've taught people how to program in the past, but I do require that
> you read the chapters and do the exercises on your own time.  That is,
> I do more tutoring than lecturing.
>
> Happy Hacking!
> -jj
>
> -- 
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From warren at muse.com  Sat Mar  3 20:28:35 2007
From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:28:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580703031049w74593b55j130999c0fd652294@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com><78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com><Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
	<78b3a9580703031049w74593b55j130999c0fd652294@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c75dca$23a43710$240110ac@Muse>

oh, i thought lowercase was the new black. i use outlook, which wants to
capitalize. sooo uncool. i tell it: no! outlook, no!

> I think one of the first things you may want to do, before you try to
teach people anything, is to locate your "Shift" key.

mike,

yes, i seem to have misplaced it.  (wonder how i could've *ever*
completed Core Python and have it published huh?)  LOL



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Mar  3 20:41:58 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 11:41:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580703031049w74593b55j130999c0fd652294@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703022330240.5116@S.culver.net>
	<78b3a9580703031049w74593b55j130999c0fd652294@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070303194158.GA28046@panix.com>

On Sat, Mar 03, 2007, wesley chun wrote:
>
> so apologies to those who are offending by my lack of capitalization,
> but i'd rather be communicating to you in my limited capacity than to
> be completely silent.

That's a lot of responsibility to lay on a simple lack of the caps key.

(Should be "offended" instead of "offending" ;-) -- and just to appese
the gods of chanse, I'm mespelling a few words here myself.)

Incidentally, you are not the only person to simply take a stand on
choosing to skip the caps key.  I know some other people.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 21:31:19 2007
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 12:31:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.tomrahk5oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 22:58:50 -0800, wesley chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
  ...
  ...

>>> import re
>>>
>>> def clean(msg, humor=3):
...     sentences = re.split(r'((?:\.|\?|!|\n\n)\s*)', msg)
...     capitalized = [s.capitalize() for s in sentences]
...     return ''.join(capitalized) + ' :)'*humor
...
>>> print clean("""donna,
...
... this is a good question.  on the flip side, i've developed what i
... think is a really good course called "Introduction to Programming".
... there is a "(using Python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not as
... much about Python as it is about programming in general.
...
... the problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
... it's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  how do
... you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
... class?  i can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so most
... technical folks *are* programmers!  so although i am ready to teach
... such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.
...
... """)
Donna,

This is a good question.  On the flip side, i've developed what i
think is a really good course called "introduction to programming".
There is a "(using python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not as
much about python as it is about programming in general.

The problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
It's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  How do
you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
class?  I can't very send anything to the mailing list or clp, so most
technical folks *are* programmers!  So although i am ready to teach
such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.

  :) :) :)

From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 06:04:47 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:04:47 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on the air
In-Reply-To: <a9f39a410703032024o5de4a1d2u34291184a1650caa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9f39a410703032024o5de4a1d2u34291184a1650caa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703032104r2f4ae6a4we60c6f586e65eb6@mail.gmail.com>

I think we have enough members who would appreciate the Python travel mug. I
got one at PyCon and love it!

Anyone else interested? If so, we could gather the money and send in an
order.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Greg Lindstrom <gslindstrom at gmail.com>
Date: Mar 3, 2007 8:24 PM
Subject: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on the air
To: pycon-organizers at python.org

Please excuse the shameless plug (or delete now, please)

We were at PyCon in Dallas offering embroidered shirts (and other items)
with the Python logo and had a wonderful time; we are grateful to both the
PSF and PyCon staff for treating us so well.   Many people asked if we had a
web site (which we didn't) and requested us to make it known when we got one
up.  Thanks to our friends at etsy.com -- who we met at PyCon --
wearpython.com is up offering our polo and denim shirts.  We will add more
items in the coming days but wanted everyone to know that we are up and
running.

I will add the fleece jackets, zen of Python tree shirts (only L and XL
left, sorry), posters and (especially) the travel mugs soon.  If you are
involved with a Python user group, would you consider purchasing a case of
24 mugs for $200.00?  Due to a honest misunderstanding, we have 8 cases left
over which is a considerable sum of money on our budget.

We are looking forward to PyCon 2008.  Let us know if there is anything you
would like us to carry and we will see what we can do.  Email me a
gslindstrom over at gmail.

Thanks,

Greg Lindstorm
Elegant Stitches Embroidery (head of the python outfitting division :-)
P.O. Box 11134
Conway, AR  72034


_______________________________________________
Pycon-organizers mailing list
Pycon-organizers at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers



-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From aleax at google.com  Sun Mar  4 07:40:45 2007
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 22:40:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on the
	air
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703032104r2f4ae6a4we60c6f586e65eb6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9f39a410703032024o5de4a1d2u34291184a1650caa@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703032104r2f4ae6a4we60c6f586e65eb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0703032240y39b4de8dn75845fd1ac209e1d@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/3/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think we have enough members who would appreciate the Python travel mug. I
> got one at PyCon and love it!
>
> Anyone else interested? If so, we could gather the money and send in an
> order.

I'd be happy to get one or two such mugs at the quoted price:

> involved with a Python user group, would you consider purchasing a case of
> 24 mugs for $200.00?  Due to a honest misunderstanding, we have 8 cases left

24 mugs for $200 == $8.33 a mug, great price IMHO.

I'll gladly pay $10 for a mug (or $20 for two) -- if 20 of us in
Baypyggies//PyOP agree, we could get the case, give a mug each to the
20 contributors, and still have 4 mugs left over for prizes for
something or other in the future.


Alex

From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 07:55:25 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 22:55:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on the
	air
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0703032153l5041927apd45b6f26c5b7cf4e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9f39a410703032024o5de4a1d2u34291184a1650caa@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703032104r2f4ae6a4we60c6f586e65eb6@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0703032153l5041927apd45b6f26c5b7cf4e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703032255m5b404caex9c23dc9a930c5f88@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/3/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/3/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think we have enough members who would appreciate the Python travel
> mug. I
> > got one at PyCon and love it!
> >
> > Anyone else interested? If so, we could gather the money and send in an
> > order.
>
> Can we see what the mug looks like first?
> There are only shirts at wearpython.com
>

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55159346 at N00/409607153/

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 07:45:47 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 22:45:47 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on the
	air
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0703032240y39b4de8dn75845fd1ac209e1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a9f39a410703032024o5de4a1d2u34291184a1650caa@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703032104r2f4ae6a4we60c6f586e65eb6@mail.gmail.com>
	<55dc209b0703032240y39b4de8dn75845fd1ac209e1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a picture



-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From max at theslimmers.net  Sun Mar  4 19:19:21 2007
From: max at theslimmers.net (Max Slimmer)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:19:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>

I would also be interested in purchasing a Python mug.  When calculating
costs don't forget there is probably some shipping cost.
max


  _____  

From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org]
On Behalf Of Anna Ravenscroft
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 10:46 PM
To: Alex Martelli
Cc: Python
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on
theair


Here's a picture



-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar! 

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From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 19:26:27 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:26:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>

I'd get two (one for me.. one for Steve) ...

just let me know who to send the money too :-)

Best Regards,
Donna M. Snow, Owner
C Squared Enterprises
illuminate your web
http://www.csquaredtech.com

On 3/4/07, Max Slimmer <max at theslimmers.net> wrote:
>
>
> I would also be interested in purchasing a Python mug.  When calculating
> costs don't forget there is probably some shipping cost.
> max
>
>
>  ________________________________
>  From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org]
> On Behalf Of Anna Ravenscroft
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 10:46 PM
> To: Alex Martelli
> Cc: Python
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on
> theair
>
>
> Here's a picture
>
>
>
> --
> cordially,
> Anna
> --
> It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 19:39:14 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:39:14 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>

Okay - it'll be about $20 to get the case shipped here. So 220/24 is 9.16...


Let me put together a google spreadsheet where people can sign up. I'll post
the url shortly and order the case.
People can either pay me at the meeting on March 8, or send money to me via
paypal.


-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 20:01:23 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:01:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/4/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Okay - it'll be about $20 to get the case shipped here. So 220/24 is
> 9.16...
>
> Let me put together a google spreadsheet where people can sign up. I'll
> post the url shortly and order the case.
> People can either pay me at the meeting on March 8, or send money to me
> via paypal.



Okay the url so people can sign themselves up should be out there. I've
added the names I noticed asking for one or two on the list already, but I
haven't finished my first cuppa, so you should check and make sure your
eddress is on there as well.

-- 
> cordially,
> Anna
> --
> It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
>



-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 20:06:35 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:06:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/4/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 3/4/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Okay - it'll be about $20 to get the case shipped here. So 220/24 is
> > 9.16...
> >
> > Let me put together a google spreadsheet where people can sign up. I'll
> > post the url shortly and order the case.
> > People can either pay me at the meeting on March 8, or send money to me
> > via paypal.
>
>
>
> Okay the url so people can sign themselves up should be out there. I've
> added the names I noticed asking for one or two on the list already, but I
> haven't finished my first cuppa, so you should check and make sure your
> eddress is on there as well.
>

In case the "invite" didn't work, the url is
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pGklCrQNVzTdGeH2WRSn5Hg
let me know if you have any trouble signing up.



-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 20:17:16 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:17:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703041117ya305b7h3c20ee5025664ab2@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/4/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 3/4/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/4/07, Anna Ravenscroft < annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Okay - it'll be about $20 to get the case shipped here. So 220/24 is
> > > 9.16...
> > >
> > > Let me put together a google spreadsheet where people can sign up.
> > > I'll post the url shortly and order the case.
> > > People can either pay me at the meeting on March 8, or send money to
> > > me via paypal.
> >
> >
> >
> > Okay the url so people can sign themselves up should be out there. I've
> > added the names I noticed asking for one or two on the list already, but I
> > haven't finished my first cuppa, so you should check and make sure your
> > eddress is on there as well.
> >
>
> In case the "invite" didn't work, the url is http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pGklCrQNVzTdGeH2WRSn5Hg
>
> let me know if you have any trouble signing up.
>


Oh. Never mind. I just found out that I can't simply invite a "group" to
collaborate on the spreadsheet.

Donna - mind if I edit the wiki to add a mug signup page?


-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 20:19:13 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:19:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703041117ya305b7h3c20ee5025664ab2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041117ya305b7h3c20ee5025664ab2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703041119x72e0fc81td002c8e0f397be28@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not going to track individual emails saying "i would like a mug".
I'm going to try to get a wiki or something set up so you can sign yourself
up.

Sorry - I just have too much java [shudder] programming and other classwork
I need to be doing to track this individually.

I will also bring a signup sheet to the March 8 meeting and collect money
there for everyone who wants one and hasn't paid via paypal already.

Anna
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From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 20:20:03 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:20:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703041119x72e0fc81td002c8e0f397be28@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041117ya305b7h3c20ee5025664ab2@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041119x72e0fc81td002c8e0f397be28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0703041120k1a91132fsa079a2a6b4b149fe@mail.gmail.com>

The wiki is under Leslie (at Google)

I don't think she'd mind you setting up a wiki page.. :-)

Donna

On 3/4/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not going to track individual emails saying "i would like a mug".
> I'm going to try to get a wiki or something set up so you can sign yourself
> up.
>
> Sorry - I just have too much java [shudder] programming and other classwork
> I need to be doing to track this individually.
>
> I will also bring a signup sheet to the March 8 meeting and collect money
> there for everyone who wants one and hasn't paid via paypal already.
>
> Anna
>

From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 20:36:37 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:36:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0703041120k1a91132fsa079a2a6b4b149fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041117ya305b7h3c20ee5025664ab2@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041119x72e0fc81td002c8e0f397be28@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0703041120k1a91132fsa079a2a6b4b149fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703041136l49e97a9aw47fa224b8703faca@mail.gmail.com>

Okay - I've added a PythonMugSignup wiki page under the March 8 meeting, at
the bottom of the meeting wiki. Just click on the link and it should bring
you to where you can sign up.

Thanks,
Anna
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 19:54:19 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (annaraven at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 10:54:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPiggies python mug ordersheet (Google Docs &
	Spreadsheets)
Message-ID: <c09ffb4bcf042ade5e46f8cc01@gmail.com>

I've shared a document with you called "BayPiggies python mug ordersheet":
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pGklCrQNVzTdGeH2WRSn5Hg&inv=baypiggies at python.org

It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs & Spreadsheets. To open this document, just click the link above.

I think this will allow you to add your name to the list and how many
mugs you want. I'll collect money at the March meeting. Anyone who
can't bring cash can pay me via paypal. I hope to bring mugs to the
April meeting for distribution.

Anna

---
Note: You'll need to sign into Google with this email address. To use a different email address, just reply to this message and ask me to invite your other one.
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 21:16:57 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:16:57 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Ignore this: Re: BayPiggies python mug ordersheet
	(Google Docs & Spreadsheets)
Message-ID: <cb361a610703041216w137f5a15y36ce83f55db69b8b@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/4/07, annaraven at gmail.com <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've shared a document with you called "BayPiggies python mug ordersheet":
>
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pGklCrQNVzTdGeH2WRSn5Hg&inv=baypiggies at python.org



It finally sent this after I'd discovered I can't invite a group, but have
to invite individuals. So, never mind. Use the wiki.


-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 00:08:06 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:08:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703041136l49e97a9aw47fa224b8703faca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041117ya305b7h3c20ee5025664ab2@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041119x72e0fc81td002c8e0f397be28@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0703041120k1a91132fsa079a2a6b4b149fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041136l49e97a9aw47fa224b8703faca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703041508l6209748eyeefe7b3b1556bc33@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/4/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Okay - I've added a PythonMugSignup wiki page under the March 8 meeting,
> at the bottom of the meeting wiki. Just click on the link and it should
> bring you to where you can sign up.



Let me clarify: you have to click on the PythonMugSignup (it's a wiki link)
to go to the separate signup page.

Sorry for all the traffic on this. I hadn't intended (or expected) to be
"spamming" the list like this. (Goes in search of more coffee...)
-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From keith at dartworks.biz  Mon Mar  5 01:06:44 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:06:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703041508l6209748eyeefe7b3b1556bc33@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703041819.l24IJN9Q018516@a.mail.sonic.net>
	<baf0d46b0703041026u3e72f45h447388ac6a5071c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041117ya305b7h3c20ee5025664ab2@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041119x72e0fc81td002c8e0f397be28@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0703041120k1a91132fsa079a2a6b4b149fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041136l49e97a9aw47fa224b8703faca@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041508l6209748eyeefe7b3b1556bc33@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070304160644.6b65b5a1@tinker.homenetwork>

On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:08:06 -0800
"Anna Ravenscroft" <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry for all the traffic on this. I hadn't intended (or expected) to
> be "spamming" the list like this. (Goes in search of more coffee...)

Hey, can you get a coffee mug with the following on it:

"I need some %s." % hex(12648430)

:-)

-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From bob at redivi.com  Mon Mar  5 01:10:28 2007
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:10:28 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <20070304160644.6b65b5a1@tinker.homenetwork>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041117ya305b7h3c20ee5025664ab2@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041119x72e0fc81td002c8e0f397be28@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0703041120k1a91132fsa079a2a6b4b149fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041136l49e97a9aw47fa224b8703faca@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041508l6209748eyeefe7b3b1556bc33@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070304160644.6b65b5a1@tinker.homenetwork>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290703041610y545f75f4j2ed13909f2f8c65c@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/4/07, Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:08:06 -0800
> "Anna Ravenscroft" <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sorry for all the traffic on this. I hadn't intended (or expected) to
> > be "spamming" the list like this. (Goes in search of more coffee...)
>
> Hey, can you get a coffee mug with the following on it:
>
> "I need some %s." % hex(12648430)

If you actually did, it'd probably be spelled more like this:

"I need some %X!" % 12648430

-bob

From keith at dartworks.biz  Mon Mar  5 01:25:17 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:25:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290703041610y545f75f4j2ed13909f2f8c65c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041117ya305b7h3c20ee5025664ab2@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041119x72e0fc81td002c8e0f397be28@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0703041120k1a91132fsa079a2a6b4b149fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041136l49e97a9aw47fa224b8703faca@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041508l6209748eyeefe7b3b1556bc33@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070304160644.6b65b5a1@tinker.homenetwork>
	<6a36e7290703041610y545f75f4j2ed13909f2f8c65c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070304162517.1933dec8@tinker.homenetwork>

On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:10:28 -0800
"Bob Ippolito" <bob at redivi.com> wrote:

> "I need some %X!" % 12648430

Hey! That's better! :-)


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From keith at dartworks.biz  Mon Mar  5 01:28:29 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:28:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] WearPython.com is on theair
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290703041610y545f75f4j2ed13909f2f8c65c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703032245w1a8f319ai81739986186c7979@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041039t23add585sa8e25796205cac7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041101j667d14b3jd28c62ac6c7333dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041106n3dab88fdk7951bbb4b61edc4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041117ya305b7h3c20ee5025664ab2@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041119x72e0fc81td002c8e0f397be28@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0703041120k1a91132fsa079a2a6b4b149fe@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041136l49e97a9aw47fa224b8703faca@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703041508l6209748eyeefe7b3b1556bc33@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070304160644.6b65b5a1@tinker.homenetwork>
	<6a36e7290703041610y545f75f4j2ed13909f2f8c65c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070304162829.1e0df13d@tinker.homenetwork>

On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:10:28 -0800
"Bob Ippolito" <bob at redivi.com> wrote:

> "I need some %X!" % 12648430

Hey! That's better! :-)

-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 04:45:57 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 19:45:57 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Any BayPiggies members familiar with PyQT4?
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0703041945l2bd3c75fm71fcd7cdff4e2b98@mail.gmail.com>

Are there any local (Bay Area) BP members familiar with PyQT4 (and
particularly threading in PyQT4)-and are going to the meeting on
Thursday?

If so please email me off list (even if you are not going to the
meeting next week.


Thanks

From hyperneato at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 07:51:15 2007
From: hyperneato at gmail.com (Isaac)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 22:51:15 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <op.tomrahk5oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tomrahk5oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7260654a0703042251v6e7efa9amc855851e147e36a0@mail.gmail.com>

This will capitalize the "I" and "I've" and keep the original capitals in
the 'msg'.
Thanks for the inspiration. I had a great time hacking!

-Isaac
Python newbie

<code>
import re

def clean(msg):
   sentences = re.split(r'((?:\.|\?|!|\n\n)\s*)', msg)
   capitalized = [s[0:1].capitalize()+ s[1:] for s in sentences]
   capitalized_2 = ''.join(capitalized)

   break_msg = re.split('(\s)', capitalized_2)
   i_noun = [re.sub('^i$', 'I', i) for i in break_msg]

   i_ve_noun = [re.sub('i\'ve', 'I\'ve',i) for i in i_noun]

   I = ''.join(i_ve_noun)
   return I

print
clean("""donna,


this is a good question.  on the flip side, i've developed what
i
think is a really good course called "Introduction to
Programming".
there is a "(using Python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not
as
much about Python as it is about programming in
general.


the problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the
course.
it's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  how
do
you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a
programming
class?  i can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so
most
technical folks *are* programmers!  so although i am ready to
teach
such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver
it.


just go to the website below, and click "Python Training".  look
for
the "Intro to Programming using Python" class and click once more
to
get a course description.  maybe if i can find a place to
announce
this to, i can actually hold this 2-day course!!""")
</code>
<output>
Donna,

This is a good question.  On the flip side, I've developed what I
think is a really good course called "Introduction to Programming".
There is a "(using Python)" at the end, but I feel that it is not as
much about Python as it is about programming in general.

The problem is that I've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
It's not something that I can just go and market, you know?  How do
you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
class?  I can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so most
technical folks *are* programmers!  So although I am ready to teach
such a course, I have yet to find a way to deliver it.

Just go to the website below, and click "Python Training".  Look for
the "Intro to Programming using Python" class and click once more to
get a course description.  Maybe if I can find a place to announce
this to, I can actually hold this 2-day course!!
</output>

On 3/3/07, Tung Wai Yip <tungwaiyip at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 22:58:50 -0800, wesley chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
>   ...
>   ...
>
> >>> import re
> >>>
> >>> def clean(msg, humor=3):
> ...     sentences = re.split(r'((?:\.|\?|!|\n\n)\s*)', msg)
> ...     capitalized = [s.capitalize() for s in sentences]
> ...     return ''.join(capitalized) + ' :)'*humor
> ...
> >>> print clean("""donna,
> ...
> ... this is a good question.  on the flip side, i've developed what i
> ... think is a really good course called "Introduction to Programming".
> ... there is a "(using Python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not as
> ... much about Python as it is about programming in general.
> ...
> ... the problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
> ... it's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  how do
> ... you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
> ... class?  i can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so most
> ... technical folks *are* programmers!  so although i am ready to teach
> ... such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.
> ...
> ... """)
> Donna,
>
> This is a good question.  On the flip side, i've developed what i
> think is a really good course called "introduction to programming".
> There is a "(using python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not as
> much about python as it is about programming in general.
>
> The problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
> It's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  How do
> you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
> class?  I can't very send anything to the mailing list or clp, so most
> technical folks *are* programmers!  So although i am ready to teach
> such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.
>
>   :) :) :)
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From wescpy at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 09:02:22 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 00:02:22 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <7260654a0703042251v6e7efa9amc855851e147e36a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tomrahk5oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<7260654a0703042251v6e7efa9amc855851e147e36a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580703050002h4612725etebcba9c7f1078eed@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/4/07, Isaac <hyperneato at gmail.com> wrote:
> This will capitalize the "I" and "I've" and keep the original capitals in
> the 'msg'.
> Thanks for the inspiration. I had a great time hacking!


is there a way to generalize "i'"?  you'd need to support "i'm",
"i'd", "i'll", etc.

finally, is there a way to incorporate all your code into gmail so
that it does it automagically when i click "send"?  :-)

-wesley

From hyperneato at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 09:12:25 2007
From: hyperneato at gmail.com (Isaac)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 00:12:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703042345230.5116@S.culver.net>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tomrahk5oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<7260654a0703042251v6e7efa9amc855851e147e36a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0703042345230.5116@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <7260654a0703050012k64e99b6fvea4d98665e1ede71@mail.gmail.com>

hmm. I'm a Mac.

> <code>
> import re
>
> def clean(msg):
>  sentences = re.split(r'((?:\.|\?|!|\n\n)\s*)', msg)
this breaks it up

>  capitalized = [s[0:1].capitalize()+ s[1:] for s in sentences]
this capializes the first letter of each element of the list.

>  capitalized_2 = ''.join(capitalized)
>
>  break_msg = re.split('(\s)', capitalized_2)
>  i_noun = [re.sub('^i$', 'I', i) for i in break_msg]
>
>  i_ve_noun = [re.sub('i\'ve', 'I\'ve',i) for i in i_noun]
>
>  I = ''.join(i_ve_noun)
>  return I

A quick speed read of this:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2003-June/210101.html

leads me to ask if it works if you replace:
sentences = re.split(r'((?:\.|\?|!|\n\n)\s*)', msg)
with
sentences = re.split('((?:\.|\?|!|\n\n)\s*)', msg)
there might be a buglet in Windows and raw strings


from:
http://www.ferg.org/projects/python_gotchas.html#contents_item_2
"""

But don't give despair! There *is* a way...

In Python, there are a number of functions in the os.path module that change
forward slashes in a string to the appropriate filename separator for the
platform that you are on. One of these function is os.path.normcase(). The
trick is to enter all of your filename strings using forward slashes, and
then let os.path.normcase() change them to backslashes for you, this way.

myDirname = os.path.normcase("c:/aDirname/")

It takes a bit of practice to get into the habit of specifying filenames
this way, but you'll find that you adapt to it surprisingly easily, and
you'll find it a *lot* easier than struggling with The Wolf."""

>is there a way to generalize "i'"?  you'd need to support "i'm",
>"i'd", "i'll", etc.
I thought about a file with a pair of words that we can load into a
dictionary- this way we can add acronyms and names. And, I guess, use a real
dictionary to capitalize all proper nouns.

>finally, is there a way to incorporate all your code into gmail so
>that it does it automagically when i click "send"?  :-)

I think I'll have to learn more about the gmail API if it exists for python.


-isaac


On 3/4/07, Mike Cheponis <mac at wireless.com> wrote:
>
> But I think there is a buglet in this code.
>
> When I tried this on unix and my PC, "this" (the word after "Donna") was
> not capitalized.
>
> Just FYI of course!  ;-)
>
> -Mike
>
>
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2007, Isaac wrote:
>
> > Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 22:51:15 -0800
> > From: Isaac <hyperneato at gmail.com>
> > To: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
> >
> > This will capitalize the "I" and "I've" and keep the original capitals
> in
> > the 'msg'.
> > Thanks for the inspiration. I had a great time hacking!
> >
> > -Isaac
> > Python newbie
> >
> > <code>
> > import re
> >
> > def clean(msg):
> >  sentences = re.split(r'((?:\.|\?|!|\n\n)\s*)', msg)
> >  capitalized = [s[0:1].capitalize()+ s[1:] for s in sentences]
> >  capitalized_2 = ''.join(capitalized)
> >
> >  break_msg = re.split('(\s)', capitalized_2)
> >  i_noun = [re.sub('^i$', 'I', i) for i in break_msg]
> >
> >  i_ve_noun = [re.sub('i\'ve', 'I\'ve',i) for i in i_noun]
> >
> >  I = ''.join(i_ve_noun)
> >  return I
> >
> > print
> > clean("""donna,
> >
> >
> > this is a good question.  on the flip side, i've developed what
> > i
> > think is a really good course called "Introduction to
> > Programming".
> > there is a "(using Python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not
> > as
> > much about Python as it is about programming in
> > general.
> >
> >
> > the problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the
> > course.
> > it's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  how
> > do
> > you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a
> > programming
> > class?  i can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so
> > most
> > technical folks *are* programmers!  so although i am ready to
> > teach
> > such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver
> > it.
> >
> >
> > just go to the website below, and click "Python Training".  look
> > for
> > the "Intro to Programming using Python" class and click once more
> > to
> > get a course description.  maybe if i can find a place to
> > announce
> > this to, i can actually hold this 2-day course!!""")
> > </code>
> > <output>
> > Donna,
> >
> > This is a good question.  On the flip side, I've developed what I
> > think is a really good course called "Introduction to Programming".
> > There is a "(using Python)" at the end, but I feel that it is not as
> > much about Python as it is about programming in general.
> >
> > The problem is that I've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
> > It's not something that I can just go and market, you know?  How do
> > you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
> > class?  I can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so most
> > technical folks *are* programmers!  So although I am ready to teach
> > such a course, I have yet to find a way to deliver it.
> >
> > Just go to the website below, and click "Python Training".  Look for
> > the "Intro to Programming using Python" class and click once more to
> > get a course description.  Maybe if I can find a place to announce
> > this to, I can actually hold this 2-day course!!
> > </output>
> >
> > On 3/3/07, Tung Wai Yip <tungwaiyip at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 22:58:50 -0800, wesley chun <wescpy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>   ...
> >>   ...
> >>
> >> >>> import re
> >> >>>
> >> >>> def clean(msg, humor=3):
> >> ...     sentences = re.split(r'((?:\.|\?|!|\n\n)\s*)', msg)
> >> ...     capitalized = [s.capitalize() for s in sentences]
> >> ...     return ''.join(capitalized) + ' :)'*humor
> >> ...
> >> >>> print clean("""donna,
> >> ...
> >> ... this is a good question.  on the flip side, i've developed what i
> >> ... think is a really good course called "Introduction to Programming".
> >> ... there is a "(using Python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not
> as
> >> ... much about Python as it is about programming in general.
> >> ...
> >> ... the problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the
> course.
> >> ... it's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  how do
> >> ... you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a
> programming
> >> ... class?  i can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so
> most
> >> ... technical folks *are* programmers!  so although i am ready to teach
> >> ... such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.
> >> ...
> >> ... """)
> >> Donna,
> >>
> >> This is a good question.  On the flip side, i've developed what i
> >> think is a really good course called "introduction to programming".
> >> There is a "(using python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not as
> >> much about python as it is about programming in general.
> >>
> >> The problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
> >> It's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  How do
> >> you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
> >> class?  I can't very send anything to the mailing list or clp, so most
> >> technical folks *are* programmers!  So although i am ready to teach
> >> such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.
> >>
> >>   :) :) :)
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Baypiggies mailing list
> >> Baypiggies at python.org
> >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >>
> >
>
>
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From bob at redivi.com  Mon Mar  5 09:58:16 2007
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 00:58:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580703050002h4612725etebcba9c7f1078eed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tomrahk5oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<7260654a0703042251v6e7efa9amc855851e147e36a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703050002h4612725etebcba9c7f1078eed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290703050058y2fa33c87ycc2846d6b5598abc@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/5/07, wesley chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/4/07, Isaac <hyperneato at gmail.com> wrote:
> > This will capitalize the "I" and "I've" and keep the original capitals in
> > the 'msg'.
> > Thanks for the inspiration. I had a great time hacking!
>
>
> is there a way to generalize "i'"?  you'd need to support "i'm",
> "i'd", "i'll", etc.
>
> finally, is there a way to incorporate all your code into gmail so
> that it does it automagically when i click "send"?  :-)

Rewrite it in JavaScript and use Greasemonkey? The code would
practically be the same since it's mostly just regex sludge.

-bob

From hyperneato at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 17:30:51 2007
From: hyperneato at gmail.com (Isaac)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:30:51 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290703050058y2fa33c87ycc2846d6b5598abc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tomrahk5oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<7260654a0703042251v6e7efa9amc855851e147e36a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703050002h4612725etebcba9c7f1078eed@mail.gmail.com>
	<6a36e7290703050058y2fa33c87ycc2846d6b5598abc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7260654a0703050830k4151a060nd739e5015c69a1e9@mail.gmail.com>

I think I found part of why it is different:

sentences = re.split(r'((?:\.|\?|!|\n\n)\s*)', msg)

is not splitting msg correctly because windows and unix have different
newline characters.(?)

try:

sentences = re.split(r'((?:\.|\?|!|\n\n|\r\n)\s*)', msg)

references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newline#Newline_in_programming_languages
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0278/

-isaac

On 3/5/07, Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/5/07, wesley chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 3/4/07, Isaac <hyperneato at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > This will capitalize the "I" and "I've" and keep the original capitals
> in
> > > the 'msg'.
> > > Thanks for the inspiration. I had a great time hacking!
> >
> >
> > is there a way to generalize "i'"?  you'd need to support "i'm",
> > "i'd", "i'll", etc.
> >
> > finally, is there a way to incorporate all your code into gmail so
> > that it does it automagically when i click "send"?  :-)
>
> Rewrite it in JavaScript and use Greasemonkey? The code would
> practically be the same since it's mostly just regex sludge.
>
> -bob
>
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From wescpy at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 20:49:53 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:49:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <7260654a0703050830k4151a060nd739e5015c69a1e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tomrahk5oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<7260654a0703042251v6e7efa9amc855851e147e36a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703050002h4612725etebcba9c7f1078eed@mail.gmail.com>
	<6a36e7290703050058y2fa33c87ycc2846d6b5598abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<7260654a0703050830k4151a060nd739e5015c69a1e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580703051149u17d43ca1udaa946878b8483a3@mail.gmail.com>

> is not splitting msg correctly because windows and unix have different
> newline characters.(?)

hence Universal Newline Support back in 2.3:

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0278/

-wesley

From alvinwang at gmail.com  Tue Mar  6 00:40:17 2007
From: alvinwang at gmail.com (Alvin Wang)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:40:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] FYI Chicago is Pycon 2008
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702281607l1de6b346m3ac6fa2f5ef2f491@mail.gmail.com>
References: <77d044440702260136ld182503td9b6af7ada572097@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702281607l1de6b346m3ac6fa2f5ef2f491@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77d044440703051540p278d622etf814dd068f3d102a@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks,

I am not discouraged.  I have an appt at the SJ Doubletree in a few weeks to
discuss 2009.

Chicago will be fine too.  I am glad it was not Cleveland.  I highly
recommend going.  They are very educational.

Alvin

On 2/28/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Alvin,
>
> Thanks for your hard work.  I know this is saddening to you, but just
> think of all the hard work you don't have to do!  I'm always happy to
> let someone else do all the hard work if I can avoid it ;)  Besides,
> I've never been to Chicago.
>
> -jj
>
> On 2/26/07, Alvin Wang <alvinwang at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > They announced the winner after I left on Sunday so I got the info late.
> > Anyway Chicago won.
> >
> >  http://chipy.org/ChiPyCon_2008_Bid
> >
> >  There were several reasons.
> >  - cheaper, they felt that Chicago would be a reasonable incremental
> > increase in room rate.
> >  - bigger - this year was 40% larger than last year.  They expect at
> least
> > that large a jump by coming to the Bay Area.
> > - Chicago stacked the quiz responses from 2006.  Chicago was the most
> asked
> > for venue.  In talking to people that were not from Chicago, SF was
> widely
> > preferred.  Chicago has a lot of people at the conference.
> >
> > I pitched Santa Clara too after some people expressed concern about San
> > Mateo's size.
> >
> > I got the feeling that they wanted to split the win since 2 cities put
> in
> > good bids.  Chicago was cheaper and had a lot of people so they went
> first.
> >
> >  There is a very good possibility that 2009 will be awarded prior to
> 2008.
> > The problem is that 2009 will be even larger.  They are going to contact
> me
> > about it.  I am planning on looking into a few more options.
> >
> >
> >  Thanks
> >  Alvin
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>



-- 
Alvin Wang
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From hyperneato at gmail.com  Tue Mar  6 08:21:17 2007
From: hyperneato at gmail.com (Isaac)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:21:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F15B6409877AA0F9A96F8A0A0840@phx.gbl>
References: <78b3a9580703051149u17d43ca1udaa946878b8483a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F15B6409877AA0F9A96F8A0A0840@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7260654a0703052321k6eea4998l6347841fc62c2991@mail.gmail.com>

I can't tell if this will work because I do not have access to Python on
Windows or Gnu-Linux

This is a guess after I searched The Google for hints or suggestions and
found nothing specific. My reasoning is that because Python >2.3 already has
Universal newline support I need to look for 2 consecutive instances of
that, *not* specifically '\n\n'.

<code>
import re

def clean(msg):
    sentences = re.split(r'((?:\.|\?|!|\n{2})\s*)', msg) #this is the only
line I changed.

    capitalized = [s[0:1].capitalize() + s[1:] for s in sentences]

    capitalized_2 = ''.join(capitalized)

    break_msg = re.split('(\s)', capitalized_2)
    i_noun = [re.sub('^i$', 'I', i) for i in break_msg]

    i_ve_noun = [re.sub('i\'ve', 'I\'ve',i) for i in i_noun]

    I = ''.join(i_ve_noun)
    return I
</code>

Cheers

-Isaac

On 3/5/07, Stephen McInerney < spmcinerney at hotmail.com > wrote:
>
> Can you rewrite it with  Universal Newline Support ?
>
> It is ugly to have hard \n\n or \n\r
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
>
>
> >From: "wesley chun" <wescpy at gmail.com>
> >To: Isaac < hyperneato at gmail.com>
> >CC: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
> >Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 11:49:53 -0800
> >
> > > is not splitting msg correctly because windows and unix have different
>
> > > newline characters.(?)
> >
> >hence Universal Newline Support back in 2.3:
> >
> > http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0278/
> >
> >-wesley
> >_______________________________________________
> >Baypiggies mailing list
> >Baypiggies at python.org
> >To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for
> FREE.
>   http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline
>
>
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From lhawthorn at google.com  Tue Mar  6 20:45:54 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:45:54 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki for March 8th meeting
Message-ID: <4869cee70703061145q50d7ffer487992ff64e112fe@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

If you're planning to attend this Thursday's Baypiggies meeting at Google,
please register on the wiki by 5 PM tomorrow, Wednesday, March 7th.

Cheers,
LH

-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Mar  6 20:49:47 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:49:47 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyOP list has begun
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703061149n336644b5j2443211d8c6d245a@mail.gmail.com>

Marilyn Davis has setup a new mailing list called "Python on the
Peninsula".  This is a contentious issue, so I am posting the email
for her.  Please don't reply.  Further discussion on the subject
should happen on that list.

Click here to learn more: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyop

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From lhawthorn at google.com  Tue Mar  6 20:49:48 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:49:48 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki for March 8th meeting
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70703061145q50d7ffer487992ff64e112fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4869cee70703061145q50d7ffer487992ff64e112fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4869cee70703061149k6269e77t3beab30eeb6b3c1c@mail.gmail.com>

My apologies, hit send to soon - for those who don't know the wiki location,
it's here:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings

On 3/6/07, Leslie Hawthorn <lhawthorn at google.com> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> If you're planning to attend this Thursday's Baypiggies meeting at Google,
> please register on the wiki by 5 PM tomorrow, Wednesday, March 7th.
>
> Cheers,
> LH
>
> --
> Leslie Hawthorn
> Open Source Program Office
> Google Inc.




-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
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From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Tue Mar  6 19:42:57 2007
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:42:57 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Thursday, Mar 8, 6 pm
Message-ID: <5538c19b0703061042t4eb2661cm678e4a2e882ca600@mail.gmail.com>

For Thursday, March 8, I can coordinate a pre-meeting
dinner in Mountain View, before the BayPIGgies meeting
at Google .

Restaurant reservations may be sent to my email until
Thursday afternoon (earlier is better). We eat family-style,
there are vegetarian and non-vegetarian dishes.  Cost around
$10 per person, including tax and tip. Bring cash, please.

Start dinner at 6pm and I will keep things moving so that we
finish and get everyone headed towards Google to
complete sign-in before the 7:30 meeting start.

The restaurant is Cafe Yulong in downtown Mountain View
(650) 960-1677
743 W Dana Street, 1/2 block from Castro where
Books, Inc is on the corner.
Parking lots all around, but downtown Mountain View
parking is still difficult.

It is a slightly out of the ordinary Chinese
restaurant.  This link has a downtown map and
additional information.
http://www.mountainviewca.net/restaurants/cafeyulong.html

I've made reservations under "Python" for 6pm
Thursday.

If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me
by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I may confirm
the headcount.

From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Mar  6 21:35:55 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:35:55 -0600
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45EDD0AB.8060509@personnelware.com>

wesley chun wrote:
>> I've tried but I just get so distracted when reading tutorials online
>> or any of the many Python books I own... I need a sit down and listen
>> to an instructor course that'll teach me what I need in an immersing
>> way.... does anyone know where a non-programmer can get such training?
> 
> 
> donna,
> 
> this is a good question.  on the flip side, i've developed what i
> think is a really good course called "Introduction to Programming".
> there is a "(using Python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not as
> much about Python as it is about programming in general.
> 
> the problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
> it's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  how do
> you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
> class?  i can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so most
> technical folks *are* programmers!  so although i am ready to teach
> such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.
> 
> just go to the website below, and click "Python Training".  look for
> the "Intro to Programming using Python" class and click once more to
> get a course description.  maybe if i can find a place to announce
> this to, i can actually hold this 2-day course!!
> 
> in a dilemma,
> -- wesley


wesley and all,

Assuming wesley does figure out how to do the course,  what do you think the 
value would be of a CD that was one big (or a bunch of small) AVI file format 
that had 3 'tracks' - audio, video of presenter, and a 1024x768 no loss version 
of whatever was sent to the overhead?

I need a few 'talks' lined up to justify purchasing a $300 vga->usb thingy plus 
the trouble to figure out how to make it all work.  the local (chicago) user 
group is an obvious choice.

It 'can' be done using software installed on the presenters laptop, but that 
causes just enough problems to warrant an external solution.  If it works as 
hoped, it will be used at PyCon08 where there just isn't time to do the software 
thing on 100 different laptops.

basically, all I am asking for at this time is to be kept informed if you plan 
on doing something.  at that point I can figure out what my plans are and we can 
work something out.

Carl K

From cchanone at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 21:00:48 2007
From: cchanone at gmail.com (Christopher Chan)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:00:48 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python Engineer for new startup
Message-ID: <7998dc640703071200o3e5b361l8f7ad429e9a33930@mail.gmail.com>

We are seeking for a talented & passionate python developer wanted for hot,
stealth startup with top tier VC located in the south bay.  The position is
fulltime and onsite.  Please email jobs at asterpix.com if interested.

Job Description:
?    Define, design, and implement complex, multi-tier distributed software
applications for web and internet services.
?    Responsible for design, code and test features, as well as work jointly
with other team members to solve and deliver products on time.
?    Passionate to learn new things quickly and adapt to quick pace startup
environment.
?    Develop web applications and infrastructure using python tools and
frameworks

Skills & Experience Requirements
?    2+ years working with Python tools and frameworks (django, turbogears,
pylons, twisted, paste, WSGI)
?    5+ years experience in developing highly scalable, data-driven
web-based applications.
?    Experience with highly scalable applications and/or distributed systems
using open source platforms (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Python, mod_python)
?    Experience with databases design with MySQL, PostgreSQL.
?    Good working knowledge of web services, service oriented architecture
(SOA), REST, SOAP, XML, XMLRPC.
?    Proven results oriented person with a delivery focus.
?    Bachelor of Science or Master of Science in Computer Science or equiv.
?    Flexible and works well as part of a fast-paced interdisciplinary
product development team

Skills & Experience Desired
?    Experience working on systems handling large volumes of real time data
for internet and web service.
?    Experience deploying production web-based solutions
?    Experience working in a small, startup environment
?    Experience with Django framework

Regards,
- chris (cchanone at gmail.com) - also feel free to email me directly at gmail.
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 22:54:29 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:54:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Carpooling from Concord
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703081354k287f986bw3e1037f7ec12ac6@mail.gmail.com>

I'm driving down to Google tonight from Concord.  If anyone wants a
ride from the East Bay, give me a call.

Best Regards,
-jj

(925) 209-6439

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From tpc247 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 11 06:23:52 2007
From: tpc247 at gmail.com (tpc247 at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 21:23:52 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course for non-programmer
In-Reply-To: <45EDD0AB.8060509@personnelware.com>
References: <baf0d46b0703021954r7d2c5cbeg2becc8ad6605bdd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580703022258v35a1687fw234f11d06ab4bcb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<45EDD0AB.8060509@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <bae1efdf0703102123i2bbdbd4ck8f63fd8029f9e4eb@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/6/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>
> wesley chun wrote:
> >> I've tried but I just get so distracted when reading tutorials online
> >> or any of the many Python books I own... I need a sit down and listen
> >> to an instructor course that'll teach me what I need in an immersing
> >> way.... does anyone know where a non-programmer can get such training?
> >
> >
> > donna,
> >
> > this is a good question.  on the flip side, i've developed what i
> > think is a really good course called "Introduction to Programming".
> > there is a "(using Python)" at the end, but i feel that it is not as
> > much about Python as it is about programming in general.
> >
> > the problem is that i've had no venue in order to deliver the course.
> > it's not something that i can just go and market, you know?  how do
> > you contact or reach non-programmers to tell them about a programming
> > class?  i can't very send anything to the mailing list or CLP, so most
> > technical folks *are* programmers!  so although i am ready to teach
> > such a course, i have yet to find a way to deliver it.
> >
> > just go to the website below, and click "Python Training".  look for
> > the "Intro to Programming using Python" class and click once more to
> > get a course description.  maybe if i can find a place to announce
> > this to, i can actually hold this 2-day course!!
> >
> > in a dilemma,
> > -- wesley
>
>
> wesley and all,
>
> Assuming wesley does figure out how to do the course,  what do you think
> the
> value would be of a CD that was one big (or a bunch of small) AVI file
> format
> that had 3 'tracks' - audio, video of presenter, and a 1024x768 no loss
> version
> of whatever was sent to the overhead?
>
> I need a few 'talks' lined up to justify purchasing a $300 vga->usb thingy
> plus
> the trouble to figure out how to make it all work.  the local (chicago)
> user
> group is an obvious choice.
>
> It 'can' be done using software installed on the presenters laptop, but
> that
> causes just enough problems to warrant an external solution.  If it works
> as
> hoped, it will be used at PyCon08 where there just isn't time to do the
> software
> thing on 100 different laptops.
>
> basically, all I am asking for at this time is to be kept informed if you
> plan
> on doing something.  at that point I can figure out what my plans are and
> we can
> work something out.
>
> Carl K



hey Carl, my name is Thuon.  It's funny that you mention the three tracks
concept, as well as a $300 device that I assume is used to hook up the
laptop computer to a projector of some sort.  These two topics came together
and introduced themselves into my life last week in a class, Molecular
Genetics, I am taking this semester in a new "green" building paid for by
the taxpayers of Berkeley, California:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/05/DDGGOKU3411.DTL

The other day a classmate came by and hooked up his computer with I believe
such a device to the two projectors newly installed in our laboratory and
lecture room.  He then brought up a video with I believe the best interface
I've seen so far for presenting talks and lectures, and by extension,
lessons.  The presentation we watched was by Joseph G. Marx, PhD, from
Baylor College of Medicine, on Stem Cells.  The top left corner had video of
the talking head of the presenter, directly beneath the talking head was the
hyperlinked outline of his talk which one could intuitively navigate, and
the rest of the screen was taken up by the presenter's slides.  The sad part
is my friend's machine was running WinXP and the interface was created using
proprietary software (RealPlayer).  If only such a interface existed on the
web using free software!

The link to the interface I am referring to is at:

http://www.bioedonline.org/presentations/index.cfm#stemcells

scroll down to "The Cell: Stem Cells" and click on "Video, audio, and slides
(cable/DSL)"
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From lavendula6654 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 21:46:29 2007
From: lavendula6654 at yahoo.com (Elaine)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:46:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Visit to Python class at Foothill College
Message-ID: <756438.56448.qm@web31702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I am looking for volunteers willing to come to my
Python class at Foothill College, Middlefield Campus
to critique student work.

The students are working on a real world project and
are required to present their work in a sort of code
review. We have found that having a guest from
industry doing the critique is extremely beneficial.

The dates needed are:
Wed, 21 March, 6pm
Wed, 28 March, 6pm

You would only need to come once, and you should be
finished by 7pm. After the critique, it would be great
if you could answer students' questions about your
work. This visit would require virtually no
preparation on your part.

Thanks for considering this,
    Elaine Haight
    haightElaine at foothill.edu


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
It's here! Your new message!  
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/

From rbradley at projectway.com  Tue Mar 13 05:07:00 2007
From: rbradley at projectway.com (Rand Bradley)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:07:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] =?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
Message-ID: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>

As everyone on the list is probably aware, Ivan Krsti? gave an excellent
keynote talk at PyCon 2007 on the One Laptop per Child project (OLPC). I was
so impressed, I emailed Ivan to see if he or someone from the OLPC project
might be interested in speaking for SDForum's Emerging Technology SIG. I
also suggested Wednesday 4/11 if possible. Ivan wrote me back that he was
interested and  that Google also wanted him to give a technical talk in the
near future. He contacted Google with the proposed date and Google responded
positively. Ivan is available to speak on either 4/11 or 4/12. (I think he
is giving a private technical talk at Google on 4/12).

I would like to propose that we again hold a joint EMTECH/BayPiggies meeting
for April. The higher-ups for the EMTECH-SIG would like to keep the
scheduled day of Wednesday 4/11 for the event. It will be hard for me to get
EMTECH to move the date to 4/12. I would like to propose that BayPIGgies
host the event at Google, it Google is willing and can accommodate 4/11.

So, I have some questions for the group...

   1. Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
   2. Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving the
   April meeting forward by one day?
   3. Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm? (Note
   we can use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).

If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the
event?

-- 
Regards,

Rand Bradley
Projectway, LLC
Phone:  (415) 430-5535
Email:   rbradley at projectway.com
http://www.projectway.com
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 07:14:11 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:14:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703122314m6deb49f5k2162078b7de1cca2@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/12/07, Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com> wrote:
> As everyone on the list is probably aware, Ivan Krsti? gave an excellent
> keynote talk at PyCon 2007 on the One Laptop per Child project (OLPC). I was
> so impressed, I emailed Ivan to see if he or someone from the OLPC project
> might be interested in speaking for SDForum's Emerging Technology SIG. I
> also suggested Wednesday 4/11 if possible. Ivan wrote me back that he was
> interested and  that Google also wanted him to give a technical talk in the
> near future. He contacted Google with the proposed date and Google responded
> positively. Ivan is available to speak on either 4/11 or 4/12. (I think he
> is giving a private technical talk at Google on 4/12).
>
>  I would like to propose that we again hold a joint EMTECH/BayPiggies
> meeting for April. The higher-ups for the EMTECH-SIG would like to keep the
> scheduled day of Wednesday 4/11 for the event. It will be hard for me to get
> EMTECH to move the date to 4/12. I would like to propose that BayPIGgies
> host the event at Google, it Google is willing and can accommodate 4/11.
>
> So, I have some questions for the group...
>
> Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
> Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving the April
> meeting forward by one day?
> Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm? (Note we can
> use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
> If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the
> event?

+1 However it turns out!

This was the most inspiring keynote at PyCon.  My blog entry, which I
covered at the last meeting, is here:

http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2007/02/pycon-keynote-one-laptop-per-child.html

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 07:34:41 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:34:41 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>

+1

On 3/12/07, Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com> wrote:
> So, I have some questions for the group...
>
> Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
> Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving the April
> meeting forward by one day?
> Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm? (Note we can
> use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
> If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the
> event?

From mattcoug at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 07:46:18 2007
From: mattcoug at gmail.com (Matthew Ford)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:46:18 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18ff0c830703122346m2177fd9dg247d83f875914aa9@mail.gmail.com>

+1

On 3/12/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> On 3/12/07, Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com> wrote:
> > So, I have some questions for the group...
> >
> > Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
> > Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving the April
> > meeting forward by one day?
> > Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm? (Note we can
> > use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
> > If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the
> > event?
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From lhawthorn at google.com  Tue Mar 13 07:47:42 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:47:42 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <18ff0c830703122346m2177fd9dg247d83f875914aa9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>
	<18ff0c830703122346m2177fd9dg247d83f875914aa9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4869cee70703122347g2ea704a4g47dce472e344ec49@mail.gmail.com>

Dude, we are so all for this.  We'll check on the location for the February
meeting.

Cheers,
LH

On 3/12/07, Matthew Ford <mattcoug at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> +1
>
> On 3/12/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > +1
> >
> > On 3/12/07, Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com> wrote:
> > > So, I have some questions for the group...
> > >
> > > Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
> > > Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving the
> April
> > > meeting forward by one day?
> > > Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm? (Note we
> can
> > > use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
> > > If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the
> > > event?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
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From lhawthorn at google.com  Tue Mar 13 07:53:43 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:53:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70703122347g2ea704a4g47dce472e344ec49@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>
	<18ff0c830703122346m2177fd9dg247d83f875914aa9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4869cee70703122347g2ea704a4g47dce472e344ec49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4869cee70703122353u1fbe888x83f7f472852310aa@mail.gmail.com>

And by February, I mean April.  Not sure what month/time zone I am in.

Cheers,
LH

On 3/12/07, Leslie Hawthorn <lhawthorn at google.com> wrote:
>
> Dude, we are so all for this.  We'll check on the location for the
> February meeting.
>
> Cheers,
> LH
>
> On 3/12/07, Matthew Ford < mattcoug at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > +1
> >
> > On 3/12/07, Tony Cappellini < cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > +1
> > >
> > > On 3/12/07, Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com> wrote:
> > > > So, I have some questions for the group...
> > > >
> > > > Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
> > > > Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving the
> > April
> > > > meeting forward by one day?
> > > > Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm? (Note
> > we can
> > > > use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
> > > > If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate
> > the
> > > > event?
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Leslie Hawthorn
> Open Source Program Office
> Google Inc.




-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
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From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 13 08:48:36 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:48:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies]April Meeting Proposal - Ivan Krstiæ
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F394A19DB83DCE096258BB4A07C0@phx.gbl>


-1

I would prefer to keep this as a bonus meeting i.e. not the main BayPIGgies
meeting of April and not occupying its slot on 4/11.
Also, is the content of the presentation going to be technical i.e.
actual code samples, or a general overview presentation?

Stephen

On 3/12/07, Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com> wrote:
>So, I have some questions for the group...
>
>Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
>Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving the April
>meeting forward by one day?
>Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm? (Note we can
>use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
>If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the
>event?

_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. 
Intro*Terms  
https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117


From annaraven at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 15:51:43 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 07:51:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70703122353u1fbe888x83f7f472852310aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>
	<18ff0c830703122346m2177fd9dg247d83f875914aa9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4869cee70703122347g2ea704a4g47dce472e344ec49@mail.gmail.com>
	<4869cee70703122353u1fbe888x83f7f472852310aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703130751x26bc3023q6ee55822b3007a9f@mail.gmail.com>

+1


OLPC uses Python. I, for one, would like to see more on the Sugar API so
people can actually learn how to start developing for this project.

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From rbradley at projectway.com  Tue Mar 13 16:53:13 2007
From: rbradley at projectway.com (Rand Bradley)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:53:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-1?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F394A19DB83DCE096258BB4A07C0@phx.gbl>
References: <8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F394A19DB83DCE096258BB4A07C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3a3f04f50703130853j3372af3er85ae4383b27f72b3@mail.gmail.com>

It is up to the group if they want to have two meetings back to back. Would
Google be willing to host two back to back meetings? One of the main reasons
to hold it at Google is that they will likely record the event and post it
to GoogleVideo Tech Talks. I think this is important. If Google cannot host
both meetings, then we could hold one meeting on 4/11 at the EMTECH-SIG
location (Cubberley Community Center in Palo Alto).

I have not discussed the content of the meeting with Ivan. I am guessing it
would be similar to the PyCon keynote. I can give him some suggestions from
the feedback. I know Anna would like to see more on the Sugar API.

On 3/13/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> -1
>
> I would prefer to keep this as a bonus meeting i.e. not the main
> BayPIGgies
> meeting of April and not occupying its slot on 4/11.
> Also, is the content of the presentation going to be technical i.e.
> actual code samples, or a general overview presentation?
>
> Stephen
>
> On 3/12/07, Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com> wrote:
> >So, I have some questions for the group...
> >
> >Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
> >Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving the April
> >meeting forward by one day?
> >Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm? (Note we can
> >use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
> >If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the
> >event?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a
> month.
> Intro*Terms
>
> https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117
>
>


-- 
Regards,

Rand Bradley
Projectway, LLC
Phone:  (415) 430-5535
Email:   rbradley at projectway.com
http://www.projectway.com
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From ross at pcnt.com  Tue Mar 13 16:53:17 2007
From: ross at pcnt.com (Ross Parlette)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 08:53:17 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Joint EMTECH Meeting
In-Reply-To: <mailman.16200.1173768834.32030.baypiggies@python.org>
References: <mailman.16200.1173768834.32030.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200703130853.AA53170007@pcnt.com>

I have attended a previous (joint BayPiggies-) EMTECH meeting and think this 
is a good idea. This could be an alternative to our regular Second Thursday 
meeting or it could be in addition to it. Either is fine by me.

parl
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From lhawthorn at google.com  Tue Mar 13 17:02:25 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:02:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-1?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <3a3f04f50703130853j3372af3er85ae4383b27f72b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F394A19DB83DCE096258BB4A07C0@phx.gbl>
	<3a3f04f50703130853j3372af3er85ae4383b27f72b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4869cee70703130902l3f51d929ied20f63a87e3dfeb@mail.gmail.com>

I'm checking now on room availability.  Back to you folks shortly.

On 3/13/07, Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com> wrote:
>
> It is up to the group if they want to have two meetings back to back.
> Would Google be willing to host two back to back meetings? One of the main
> reasons to hold it at Google is that they will likely record the event and
> post it to GoogleVideo Tech Talks. I think this is important. If Google
> cannot host both meetings, then we could hold one meeting on 4/11 at the
> EMTECH-SIG location (Cubberley Community Center in Palo Alto).
>
> I have not discussed the content of the meeting with Ivan. I am guessing
> it would be similar to the PyCon keynote. I can give him some suggestions
> from the feedback. I know Anna would like to see more on the Sugar API.
>
> On 3/13/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > -1
> >
> > I would prefer to keep this as a bonus meeting i.e. not the main
> > BayPIGgies
> > meeting of April and not occupying its slot on 4/11.
> > Also, is the content of the presentation going to be technical i.e.
> > actual code samples, or a general overview presentation?
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> > On 3/12/07, Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com> wrote:
> > >So, I have some questions for the group...
> > >
> > >Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
> > >Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving the April
> > >meeting forward by one day?
> > >Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm? (Note we
> > can
> > >use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
> > >If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the
> > >event?
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a
> > month.
> > Intro*Terms
> > https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Rand Bradley
> Projectway, LLC
> Phone:  (415) 430-5535
> Email:   rbradley at projectway.com
> http://www.projectway.com
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
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From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Tue Mar 13 18:17:46 2007
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:17:46 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
 =?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
 =?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45F6DCBA.6060007@mvista.com>

Rand Bradley wrote:
> As everyone on the list is probably aware, Ivan Krsti? gave an 
> excellent keynote talk at PyCon 2007 on the One Laptop per Child 
> project (OLPC). I was so impressed, I emailed Ivan to see if he or 
> someone from the OLPC project might be interested in speaking for 
> SDForum's Emerging Technology SIG. I also suggested Wednesday 4/11 if 
> possible. Ivan wrote me back that he was interested and  that Google 
> also wanted him to give a technical talk in the near future. He 
> contacted Google with the proposed date and Google responded 
> positively. Ivan is available to speak on either 4/11 or 4/12. (I 
> think he is giving a private technical talk at Google on 4/12).
>
> I would like to propose that we again hold a joint EMTECH/BayPiggies 
> meeting for April. The higher-ups for the EMTECH-SIG would like to 
> keep the scheduled day of Wednesday 4/11 for the event. It will be 
> hard for me to get EMTECH to move the date to 4/12. I would like to 
> propose that BayPIGgies host the event at Google, it Google is willing 
> and can accommodate 4/11.
>
> So, I have some questions for the group...
>
>    1. Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
>    2. Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving
>       the April meeting forward by one day?
>    3. Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm?
>       (Note we can use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
>
> If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the 
> event?
>
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
I give a +1 to ivan as well and would happily listen to several more 
talks if he's willing to give them.  His presentation at PyCon 2k7 was 
amazing.

-c

-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From jim at well.com  Tue Mar 13 22:22:54 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:22:54 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies]
 =?utf-8?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti=C4=87?=
In-Reply-To: <45F6DCBA.6060007@mvista.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
	<45F6DCBA.6060007@mvista.com>
Message-ID: <bf86086da5ab606f0b9ef3cc0061efaf@well.com>


+1
    i like it for the reason that if this is takes the place
of our monthly meeting, I'm off the hook for putting
together a satisfying newbies night.
    I saw negroponte at the red hat summit in nashville
last june. his was one of the most entertaining talks--
riveting, really.
    to the criticism that he's too much the showman,
well so was P. T. Barnum, but people like the circus
anyway.
    I think this will be stimulating.
    And it gives me time to go through the February
email with a better chance of sorting out the various
ideas.
jim


On Mar 13, 2007, at 9:17 AM, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:

> Rand Bradley wrote:
>> As everyone on the list is probably aware, Ivan Krsti? gave an
>> excellent keynote talk at PyCon 2007 on the One Laptop per Child
>> project (OLPC). I was so impressed, I emailed Ivan to see if he or
>> someone from the OLPC project might be interested in speaking for
>> SDForum's Emerging Technology SIG. I also suggested Wednesday 4/11 if
>> possible. Ivan wrote me back that he was interested and  that Google
>> also wanted him to give a technical talk in the near future. He
>> contacted Google with the proposed date and Google responded
>> positively. Ivan is available to speak on either 4/11 or 4/12. (I
>> think he is giving a private technical talk at Google on 4/12).
>>
>> I would like to propose that we again hold a joint EMTECH/BayPiggies
>> meeting for April. The higher-ups for the EMTECH-SIG would like to
>> keep the scheduled day of Wednesday 4/11 for the event. It will be
>> hard for me to get EMTECH to move the date to 4/12. I would like to
>> propose that BayPIGgies host the event at Google, it Google is willing
>> and can accommodate 4/11.
>>
>> So, I have some questions for the group...
>>
>>    1. Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
>>    2. Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving
>>       the April meeting forward by one day?
>>    3. Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm?
>>       (Note we can use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
>>
>> If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the
>> event?
>>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> I give a +1 to ivan as well and would happily listen to several more
> talks if he's willing to give them.  His presentation at PyCon 2k7 was
> amazing.
>
> -c
>
> -- 
>
> Carl J. Van Arsdall
> cvanarsdall at mvista.com
> Build and Release
> MontaVista Software
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From DennisR at dair.com  Tue Mar 13 22:37:42 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:37:42 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
 =?utf-8?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti=C4=87?=
In-Reply-To: <bf86086da5ab606f0b9ef3cc0061efaf@well.com>
References: <45F6DCBA.6060007@mvista.com>
	<3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
	<45F6DCBA.6060007@mvista.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070313143133.00beec58@localhost>

At 02:22 PM 3/13/2007, jim stockford wrote:
>+1     i like it for the reason that if this is takes the place of our 
>monthly meeting, I'm off the hook for putting together a satisfying 
>newbies night.

+1

I think this is sounds like an outstanding application of Python:

         http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/blogs/olpc_kicks_off_pycon_2007

It boggles the mind that potentially millions of 6 year olds will be 
hitting the "View Source" to learn how to hack Python code.

Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 01:29:45 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:29:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703130751x26bc3023q6ee55822b3007a9f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>
	<18ff0c830703122346m2177fd9dg247d83f875914aa9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4869cee70703122347g2ea704a4g47dce472e344ec49@mail.gmail.com>
	<4869cee70703122353u1fbe888x83f7f472852310aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703130751x26bc3023q6ee55822b3007a9f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703131729j7a084691r8c81913ea31cf0d3@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/13/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> OLPC uses Python. I, for one, would like to see more on the Sugar API so
> people can actually learn how to start developing for this project.

I was quite inspired by OLPC, so I downloaded an image and ran it
under an emulator.  It crashed, which was not surprising.  Next, I
went browsing through the Sugar source code.  I was pretty depressed
by the fact that the files I was looking at didn't have any API
documentation.

I really wish them the best, but I do suspect they would have a more
stable product if they followed better practices.

Sadly,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From guido at python.org  Wed Mar 14 01:43:25 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:43:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90703131729j7a084691r8c81913ea31cf0d3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0703122334k79bc9d43s71805b0e81331804@mail.gmail.com>
	<18ff0c830703122346m2177fd9dg247d83f875914aa9@mail.gmail.com>
	<4869cee70703122347g2ea704a4g47dce472e344ec49@mail.gmail.com>
	<4869cee70703122353u1fbe888x83f7f472852310aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703130751x26bc3023q6ee55822b3007a9f@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90703131729j7a084691r8c81913ea31cf0d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20703131743m48439dd5y3101571e7b76a0f6@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/13/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was quite inspired by OLPC, so I downloaded an image and ran it
> under an emulator.  It crashed, which was not surprising.  Next, I
> went browsing through the Sugar source code.  I was pretty depressed
> by the fact that the files I was looking at didn't have any API
> documentation.
>
> I really wish them the best, but I do suspect they would have a more
> stable product if they followed better practices.

Yes, they have a problem maintaining proper engineering process (at
least for the higher layers of the code). I'm about to gripe about
that on the sugar list. it may have to do with the general
heads-in-the-sky attitude I've encountered on the list -- they are
talking about running in 3 dimensions while they still have to learn
to crawl in one. :-(

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From annaraven at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 03:27:51 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:27:51 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] python mugs arrived
Message-ID: <cb361a610703131927y2c110dddra05ea809b7b747be@mail.gmail.com>

I'll distribute them at the next meeting. You can see the list of who's
ordered and who's paid at the google spreadsheet:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pGklCrQNVzTdGeH2WRSn5Hg

There's even a couple left for BayPiggies to raffle off as doorprizes at the
upcoming newbie night. (When is that happening?)
-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 05:35:43 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:35:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] python mugs arrived
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703131927y2c110dddra05ea809b7b747be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703131927y2c110dddra05ea809b7b747be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703132135j2120d335qf271a0e3817bdcb9@mail.gmail.com>

Well heck! What good is PayPal if it won't let me accept payments, I ask
you?!
 Hrmph.

Okay - anyone who hasn't paid already - bring cash to the meeting please!.

On 3/13/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'll distribute them at the next meeting. You can see the list of who's
> ordered and who's paid at the google spreadsheet:
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pGklCrQNVzTdGeH2WRSn5Hg
>
> There's even a couple left for BayPiggies to raffle off as doorprizes at
> the upcoming newbie night. (When is that happening?)
> --
> cordially,
> Anna
> --
> It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!




-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Mar 14 14:54:54 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:54:54 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] python mugs arrived
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703131927y2c110dddra05ea809b7b747be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610703131927y2c110dddra05ea809b7b747be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070314135454.GA23047@panix.com>

On Tue, Mar 13, 2007, Anna Ravenscroft wrote:
>
> I'll distribute them at the next meeting. You can see the list of who's
> ordered and who's paid at the google spreadsheet:
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pGklCrQNVzTdGeH2WRSn5Hg

Apparently you need a Google account just to read someone else's
spreadsheet.  Sorry, won't do that.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From lhawthorn at google.com  Wed Mar 14 18:36:59 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:36:59 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70703131447v63b385a4s5071ea3f2df44dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
	<45F6DCBA.6060007@mvista.com>
	<bf86086da5ab606f0b9ef3cc0061efaf@well.com>
	<4869cee70703131447v63b385a4s5071ea3f2df44dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4869cee70703141036h261cdfe5l3bfdaf9140e62756@mail.gmail.com>

Resending without the map attachment; my first message bounced as too large.

On 3/13/07, Leslie Hawthorn <lhawthorn at google.com> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, Google only has facilities available during the regularly
> scheduled meeting time on April 12th.  In fact, we've been moved to Building
> 44 for this meeting, which is just across the street from the usual meeting
> location.  (Campus map attached.)
>
> The good news is, we will still have taping and will have seating for up
> to 150 people.  Let me know what you folks want to do.
>
> Cheers,
> LH
>
>
>
> On 3/13/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > +1
> >     i like it for the reason that if this is takes the place
> > of our monthly meeting, I'm off the hook for putting
> > together a satisfying newbies night.
> >     I saw negroponte at the red hat summit in nashville
> > last june. his was one of the most entertaining talks--
> > riveting, really.
> >     to the criticism that he's too much the showman,
> > well so was P. T. Barnum, but people like the circus
> > anyway.
> >     I think this will be stimulating.
> >     And it gives me time to go through the February
> > email with a better chance of sorting out the various
> > ideas.
> > jim
> >
> >
> > On Mar 13, 2007, at 9:17 AM, Carl J. Van Arsdall wrote:
> >
> > > Rand Bradley wrote:
> > >> As everyone on the list is probably aware, Ivan Krsti? gave an
> > >> excellent keynote talk at PyCon 2007 on the One Laptop per Child
> > >> project (OLPC). I was so impressed, I emailed Ivan to see if he or
> > >> someone from the OLPC project might be interested in speaking for
> > >> SDForum's Emerging Technology SIG. I also suggested Wednesday 4/11 if
> > >> possible. Ivan wrote me back that he was interested and  that Google
> > >> also wanted him to give a technical talk in the near future. He
> > >> contacted Google with the proposed date and Google responded
> > >> positively. Ivan is available to speak on either 4/11 or 4/12. (I
> > >> think he is giving a private technical talk at Google on 4/12).
> > >>
> > >> I would like to propose that we again hold a joint EMTECH/BayPiggies
> > >> meeting for April. The higher-ups for the EMTECH-SIG would like to
> > >> keep the scheduled day of Wednesday 4/11 for the event. It will be
> > >> hard for me to get EMTECH to move the date to 4/12. I would like to
> > >> propose that BayPIGgies host the event at Google, it Google is
> > willing
> > >> and can accommodate 4/11.
> > >>
> > >> So, I have some questions for the group...
> > >>
> > >>    1. Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
> > >>    2. Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving
> > >>       the April meeting forward by one day?
> > >>    3. Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm?
> > >>       (Note we can use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
> > >>
> > >> If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate
> > the
> > >> event?
> > >>
> > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > I give a +1 to ivan as well and would happily listen to several more
> > > talks if he's willing to give them.  His presentation at PyCon 2k7 was
> > > amazing.
> > >
> > > -c
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Carl J. Van Arsdall
> > > cvanarsdall at mvista.com
> > > Build and Release
> > > MontaVista Software
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>
>
> --
> Leslie Hawthorn
> Open Source Program Office
> Google Inc.
>
>


-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
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From bsergean at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 18:20:06 2007
From: bsergean at gmail.com (Benjamin Sergeant)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:20:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] python mugs arrived
In-Reply-To: <20070314135454.GA23047@panix.com>
References: <cb361a610703131927y2c110dddra05ea809b7b747be@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070314135454.GA23047@panix.com>
Message-ID: <1621f9fa0703141020j3419eb8dhc073567d5eb15c2@mail.gmail.com>

This is the poor hack of the day, a screenshot of the page for the one
who don't want to register to a new site for the 200th time of their
life ... :)


On 3/14/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2007, Anna Ravenscroft wrote:
> >
> > I'll distribute them at the next meeting. You can see the list of who's
> > ordered and who's paid at the google spreadsheet:
> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pGklCrQNVzTdGeH2WRSn5Hg
>
> Apparently you need a Google account just to read someone else's
> spreadsheet.  Sorry, won't do that.
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 19:44:29 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:44:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] I have only one word for you!!!
In-Reply-To: <710454.4406.qm@web31008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <710454.4406.qm@web31008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703151144s3e9a8795l4ecaf0ad4dfc0154@mail.gmail.com>


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From kenobi at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 21:43:36 2007
From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:43:36 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] I have only one word for you!!!
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90703151144s3e9a8795l4ecaf0ad4dfc0154@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710454.4406.qm@web31008.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<c41f67b90703151144s3e9a8795l4ecaf0ad4dfc0154@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0aa69930703151343u462f06b5h19c1affebe8aa8e4@mail.gmail.com>

No relation to guinea pigs.  Don't know if I'd admit to the warthog.

From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 22:21:43 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:21:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] LucasFilm/Industrial Light & Magic and
	Asterpix
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580703151416p49fc3b85q3a7687a3d22228ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78b3a9580703151416p49fc3b85q3a7687a3d22228ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580703151421g42e4a1e0tc4928487949cb37c@mail.gmail.com>

sorry, *2* positions at Lucas... below's the 2nd one... no
heavy-lifting required and more "hardcore."  :-)  this one is for
LucasFilm while the 1st one was for ILM.

http://www.lucasfilm.com/employment/jobs/lfl/is/job20060511.html


On 3/15/07, wesley chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> web stuff, databases, streaming audio/video, XML, documentation, and
> Python; some heavy lifting and event planning too!  ;-)
>
> http://ilm.com/jobs/it/20070129.html
>
> contact me privately if interested, and i'll fwd you to the HR person
> and hiring manager. i believe the position is in the presidio.

From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 22:16:33 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:16:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] LucasFilm/Industrial Light & Magic and Asterpix
Message-ID: <78b3a9580703151416p49fc3b85q3a7687a3d22228ce@mail.gmail.com>

web stuff, databases, streaming audio/video, XML, documentation, and
Python; some heavy lifting and event planning too!  ;-)

http://ilm.com/jobs/it/20070129.html

contact me privately if interested, and i'll fwd you to the HR person
and hiring manager. i believe the position is in the presidio.

for those interested in early-stage streaming video opportunity in the
south bay, Asterpix is looking for full-time software engineers,
architecting the core of their product in Python.  the website is
sparse, so again, contact me privately, and i'll hook you up with the
hiring engineering director.

http://www.asterpix.com

cheers,
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From kenobi at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 20:52:58 2007
From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:52:58 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] communities of practice
Message-ID: <f0aa69930703161252r5255630v6f48e80f191e8f3b@mail.gmail.com>

I recently had to respond to some comments about collaboration tools,
or more specifically "communities of practice" (CoP).  The respondents
(1 east coast, 1 west coast) both cited MS SharePoint (< 50 people)
and Tomoye (very large communities) as good tools.

My suspicion is that this is also handled by Zope/Plone, but I haven't
done any work in the CoP arena and only a passing reading familiarity
with the various Python-based frameworks out there.

Anyone have any instructive comments in this area?  I probably will
have to set up something on a shared Linux server for a community of
up to 1500 people.

--Rick

From dreid at dreid.org  Fri Mar 16 21:06:17 2007
From: dreid at dreid.org (David Reid)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:06:17 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] communities of practice
In-Reply-To: <f0aa69930703161252r5255630v6f48e80f191e8f3b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0aa69930703161252r5255630v6f48e80f191e8f3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E92AB00-1B76-4845-BEB9-09F3469275E2@dreid.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Rick,

Why not a wiki? I'm partial Sycamore which forked from MoinMoin a few  
years ago and has had a lot of work put into it to handle large  
highly active communities (like  http://daviswiki.org/)

http://www.projectsycamore.org/

(full disclosure, I'm friends with the developer and have hacked on  
it from time to time.)

- -David
http://dreid.org

"Usually the protocol is this: I appoint someone for a task,
which they are not qualified to do.  Then, they have to fight
a bear if they don't want to do it." -- Glyph Lefkowitz




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Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFF+vi+rsrO6aeULcgRAu3hAJ9MD0O+oz9y1sjFOdV04KKPBJvl9wCeKlvp
A84obxKs9Eedro1OPw75xrY=
=UVuQ
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From grayarea at reddagger.org  Fri Mar 16 23:17:57 2007
From: grayarea at reddagger.org (jwithers)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:17:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] communities of practice
In-Reply-To: <f0aa69930703161252r5255630v6f48e80f191e8f3b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0aa69930703161252r5255630v6f48e80f191e8f3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1174083477.5169.130.camel@localhost>

Yes, this is covered by plone pretty well.

You might wanna look at open planning project, which is working off of a
plone base.

I use plone internally for workgroup stuff.

I am not really buzzword compliant with your Communities of Practice
thing. But if you need people to be able to post documents and work on
documents and other forms of content collaboratively in a segmented web
space, then it does what you want and seems to do a slightly better job
of it than the other things I have tried. There are much better web
frameworks out there (MUCH better), but there aren't better content
management systems in the open source space for my experience.

jpw 

On Fri, 2007-03-16 at 12:52 -0700, Rick Kwan wrote:
> I recently had to respond to some comments about collaboration tools,
> or more specifically "communities of practice" (CoP).  The respondents
> (1 east coast, 1 west coast) both cited MS SharePoint (< 50 people)
> and Tomoye (very large communities) as good tools.
> 
> My suspicion is that this is also handled by Zope/Plone, but I haven't
> done any work in the CoP arena and only a passing reading familiarity
> with the various Python-based frameworks out there.
> 
> Anyone have any instructive comments in this area?  I probably will
> have to set up something on a shared Linux server for a community of
> up to 1500 people.
> 
> --Rick
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
-- 
jwithers <grayarea at reddagger.org>


From jim at well.com  Sat Mar 17 16:38:43 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:38:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies]
 =?utf-8?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti=C4=87?=
In-Reply-To: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3483f2981e686eb1b58a01272c44c497@well.com>


how's this coming along? will be/won't be?

On Mar 12, 2007, at 8:07 PM, Rand Bradley wrote:

> As everyone on the list is probably aware, Ivan Krsti? gave an  
> excellent keynote talk at PyCon 2007 on the One Laptop per Child  
> project (OLPC). I was so impressed, I emailed  Ivan to see if he or  
> someone from the OLPC project might be interested in speaking for  
> SDForum's Emerging Technology SIG. I also suggested Wednesday 4/11 if  
> possible. Ivan wrote me back that he was interested and? that Google  
> also wanted him to give a technical talk in the near future. He  
> contacted Google with the proposed date and Google responded  
> positively. Ivan is available to speak on either 4/11 or 4/12. (I  
> think he is giving a private technical talk at Google on 4/12).
>
> I would like to propose that we again hold a joint EMTECH/BayPiggies  
> meeting for April. The higher-ups for the EMTECH-SIG would like to  
> keep the scheduled day of Wednesday 4/11 for the event. It will be  
> hard for me to get EMTECH to move the date to 4/12. I would like to  
> propose that BayPIGgies host the event at Google, it Google is willing  
> and can accommodate 4/11.
>
> So, I have some questions for the group...
> 	1 	Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG meeting?
> 	2 	Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate moving the  
> April meeting forward by one day?
> 	3 	Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we confirm? (Note  
> we can use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
> If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the  
> event?
>
> --  
> Regards,
>
> Rand Bradley
> Projectway, LLC
> Phone:??(415) 430-5535
> Email:?? rbradley at projectway.com
> http:// 
> www.projectway.com_______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

From rbradley at projectway.com  Sat Mar 17 17:06:29 2007
From: rbradley at projectway.com (Rand Bradley)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:06:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]
	=?iso-8859-2?q?April_Meeting_Proposal_-_Ivan_Krsti?=
	=?iso-8859-2?q?=E6?=
In-Reply-To: <3483f2981e686eb1b58a01272c44c497@well.com>
References: <3a3f04f50703122107h6753b5e4of82c1ba81ae36e42@mail.gmail.com>
	<3483f2981e686eb1b58a01272c44c497@well.com>
Message-ID: <3a3f04f50703170906x1c39b680s9a82ca8f41494828@mail.gmail.com>

Ivan is confirmed to speak on April 11. The EMTECH chairs are unwilling to
move the date to 4/12. Since Google facilities are not available, we will
hold the meeting at the EMTECH facility located at the Cubberley Community
Center. I will send out more meeting information to the group once I have
the talk synopsis from Ivan. I will work on getting the information together
next week.

On 3/17/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
>
> how's this coming along? will be/won't be?
>
> On Mar 12, 2007, at 8:07 PM, Rand Bradley wrote:
>
> > As everyone on the list is probably aware, Ivan Krsti? gave an
> > excellent keynote talk at PyCon 2007 on the One Laptop per Child
> > project (OLPC). I was so impressed, I emailed  Ivan to see if he or
> > someone from the OLPC project might be interested in speaking for
> > SDForum's Emerging Technology SIG. I also suggested Wednesday 4/11 if
> > possible. Ivan wrote me back that he was interested and that Google
> > also wanted him to give a technical talk in the near future. He
> > contacted Google with the proposed date and Google responded
> > positively. Ivan is available to speak on either 4/11 or 4/12. (I
> > think he is giving a private technical talk at Google on 4/12).
> >
> > I would like to propose that we again hold a joint EMTECH/BayPiggies
> > meeting for April. The higher-ups for the EMTECH-SIG would like to
> > keep the scheduled day of Wednesday 4/11 for the event. It will be
> > hard for me to get EMTECH to move the date to 4/12. I would like to
> > propose that BayPIGgies host the event at Google, it Google is willing
> > and can accommodate 4/11.
> >
> > So, I have some questions for the group...
> >       1       Would BayPIGgies like to make this a joint EMTECH-SIG
> meeting?
> >       2       Is the 4/11/2007 date okay? Can BayPIGgies accommodate
> moving the
> > April meeting forward by one day?
> >       3       Can we hold the event at Google on 4/11? How can we
> confirm? (Note
> > we can use EMTECH-SIG location if necessary).
> > If the group is willing, can someone contact me to help coordinate the
> > event?
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rand Bradley
> > Projectway, LLC
> > Phone:(415) 430-5535
> > Email: rbradley at projectway.com
> > http://
> > www.projectway.com_______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Regards,

Rand Bradley
Projectway, LLC
Phone:  (415) 430-5535
Email:   rbradley at projectway.com
http://www.projectway.com
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From jim at well.com  Sat Mar 17 21:30:28 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:30:28 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April meeting query for you
Message-ID: <d40d5f8ad18a9117bef96d288c87ff7f@well.com>


    Seems like we're not going to combo our
April bayPIGgies meeting with the EMTECH
OLPC bunch.
    Looks like newbies night for April 12. Yes
or no, either way we need help. i'm assuming
Yes, in which case "we" have to organize the
suggestions from the February email and
organize a presentation, including getting
speakers.
    My personal tho't is that the suggestions
are mainly best practices tips that could
benefit from underlying design points--
i.e. supplement the how with the how-come.
    Chad hopes to set up a wiki for us to use
to collaborate on this.

    Time's a-wastin' as we have to make a
program, get some speakers, and promote
the night not only to our membership but to
other groups.
    Volunteers are welcome.

    To those who vehemently oppose newbies
night for this coming meeting, please accompany
your objections with alternate proposals.

jim


From annaraven at gmail.com  Sat Mar 17 21:50:08 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:50:08 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] April meeting query for you
In-Reply-To: <d40d5f8ad18a9117bef96d288c87ff7f@well.com>
References: <d40d5f8ad18a9117bef96d288c87ff7f@well.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703171350r3870e5dcp962ade64e11cf101@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/17/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
>
>     Seems like we're not going to combo our
> April bayPIGgies meeting with the EMTECH
> OLPC bunch.
>     Looks like newbies night for April 12. Yes
> or no, either way we need help. i'm assuming
> Yes, in which case "we" have to organize the
> suggestions from the February email and
> organize a presentation, including getting
> speakers.
>     My personal tho't is that the suggestions
> are mainly best practices tips that could
> benefit from underlying design points--
> i.e. supplement the how with the how-come.
>     Chad hopes to set up a wiki for us to use
> to collaborate on this.
>
>     Time's a-wastin' as we have to make a
> program, get some speakers, and promote
> the night not only to our membership but to
> other groups.
>     Volunteers are welcome.
>
>     To those who vehemently oppose newbies
> night for this coming meeting, please accompany
> your objections with alternate proposals.



My alternate proposal is that we have a simple meet and greet night. All
"open space" the entire night. Since many people will have gone to the OLPC
presentation the night before, I suspect our attendance will be quite low.
(Many people can't make it to two events in the same week) I also think
planning a Newbies Night for May would be better - give us some leadtime.
(Since our leadtime basically got derailed by the OLPC conversation this
month..)

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From jim at well.com  Sun Mar 18 02:45:05 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:45:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] April meeting query for you
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703171350r3870e5dcp962ade64e11cf101@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d40d5f8ad18a9117bef96d288c87ff7f@well.com>
	<cb361a610703171350r3870e5dcp962ade64e11cf101@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7cf5fc2786692cdb07ebbee5f509d73b@well.com>


    Anna's alternate proposal is fine with me:
I'd really like to have a good, maybe even
excellent newbies night.
    Wearing my speaker-getting janitor's hat,
It would be helpful to get further opinions.
    We might have meet and greet night this
coming April 12: 's okay with you?


> My alternate proposal is that we have a simple meet and greet night. 
> All "open space" the entire night. Since many people will have gone to 
> the OLPC presentation the night before, I suspect our attendance will 
> be quite low. (Many people can't make it to two events in the same 
> week) I also think planning a Newbies Night for May would be better - 
> give us some leadtime. (Since our leadtime basically got derailed by 
> the OLPC conversation this month..)
>
> -- 
> cordially,
> Anna
> --
> It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!


From DennisR at dair.com  Sun Mar 18 02:57:09 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:57:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] April meeting query for you
In-Reply-To: <7cf5fc2786692cdb07ebbee5f509d73b@well.com>
References: <cb361a610703171350r3870e5dcp962ade64e11cf101@mail.gmail.com>
	<d40d5f8ad18a9117bef96d288c87ff7f@well.com>
	<cb361a610703171350r3870e5dcp962ade64e11cf101@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070317185331.00bed5e8@localhost>

At 06:45 PM 3/17/2007, jim stockford wrote:

>     Anna's alternate proposal is fine with me:
>I'd really like to have a good, maybe even
>excellent newbies night.
>     Wearing my speaker-getting janitor's hat,
>It would be helpful to get further opinions.
>     We might have meet and greet night this
>coming April 12: 's okay with you?


Sounds good to me.  It would be great to have a solution to a problem which 
came up at last meet and greet: what to do about announcements.  I tried to 
simply not have them but people with announcements made them anyway using 
the microphone.

This served nobody well.  The announcements were not heard and the 
conversations in progress were disrupted.

Regards, Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu  Sun Mar 18 04:34:49 2007
From: rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu (Robert Stephenson)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:34:49 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] April meeting query for you
In-Reply-To: <7cf5fc2786692cdb07ebbee5f509d73b@well.com>
References: <d40d5f8ad18a9117bef96d288c87ff7f@well.com>
	<cb361a610703171350r3870e5dcp962ade64e11cf101@mail.gmail.com>
	<7cf5fc2786692cdb07ebbee5f509d73b@well.com>
Message-ID: <5A961B35-2416-484F-BDBC-8EDF9D387A2C@sun.science.wayne.edu>

Fine by me.
- Rob


On Mar 17, 2007, at 6:45 PM, jim stockford wrote:

>
>     Anna's alternate proposal is fine with me:
> I'd really like to have a good, maybe even
> excellent newbies night.
>     Wearing my speaker-getting janitor's hat,
> It would be helpful to get further opinions.
>     We might have meet and greet night this
> coming April 12: 's okay with you?
>
>
>> My alternate proposal is that we have a simple meet and greet night.
>> All "open space" the entire night. Since many people will have  
>> gone to
>> the OLPC presentation the night before, I suspect our attendance will
>> be quite low. (Many people can't make it to two events in the same
>> week) I also think planning a Newbies Night for May would be better -
>> give us some leadtime. (Since our leadtime basically got derailed by
>> the OLPC conversation this month..)
>>
>> -- 
>> cordially,
>> Anna
>> --
>> It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*  Dr. Robert S. Stephenson
*  E-learning Architect
*  rstephe at alumni.princeton.edu
*  (415) 341-3784
*  http://sun.science.wayne.edu/~rstephe
*
*  Chief Architect and Principal Investigator
*  http://OpenCourse.Org
*  Supporting virtual communities of e-learning developers.
*
*  Founder
*  The Harvey Project
*  Open Course Physiology on the Web
*  http://HarveyProject.org
*
*  Was I helpful?  Let others know:
*  http://rate.affero.net/rstephe
*
*  gpg key fingerprint:
*  4255 FB43 17C8 2B80 8074  7DB6 7DD7 939B F3F6 CB92
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 21:11:34 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:11:34 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL [WAS April meeting query for
	you]
In-Reply-To: <7cf5fc2786692cdb07ebbee5f509d73b@well.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>

Jim & Anna,

Might I suggest this change of subject line to get more urgent attention 
from people?
In the past people would have written "CANCEL APRIL MEETING?". That really 
gets attention fast.
It usually inspires someone to volunteer something.

My personal preference would be that in the event nobody with anything 
useful to present volunteers, we do the meet-and-greet.

>[Anna wrote] (Since our leadtime basically got derailed by the OLPC 
>conversation this month..)
If someone is proposing a joint meeting, one of the first things to check is 
whether they are willing to use the usual venue on the usual date and time. 
Otherwise causes confusion.

(Also, can we please do what Dennis used to - don't just schedule the 
current month, try to tentatively schedule 3 months out. (and post a compact 
tentative 3-mth schedule when discussing scheduling). This means you always 
have a backup.)

Anyway, back to April 12 meeting, if any.

Regards,
Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office 
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/


From jim at well.com  Mon Mar 19 01:29:56 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:29:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL [WAS April meeting query
	for you]
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>


    i am trying to schedule many months in advance.
i depend on the group, of course. I may have a
woman who writes Python to implement math to
generate pattern tiles--she's not in bayPIGgies, so
i claim extra points. On the other hand, nothing is
yet for sure, so i can't write up a schedule.
    Myself, i'm a literal person: i mean what i say and
expect others to so read. Your "CANCEL..." seems
a ploy to scare members into action: 's okay, but
not my style.
    Seems to me the April meeting is either newbies
night or meet and greet (I vote for meet and greet),
depending on member response.
    My deep thanks for your interest, both of you.
jim


On Mar 18, 2007, at 12:11 PM, Stephen McInerney wrote:

> Jim & Anna,
>
> Might I suggest this change of subject line to get more urgent 
> attention from people?
> In the past people would have written "CANCEL APRIL MEETING?". That 
> really gets attention fast.
> It usually inspires someone to volunteer something.
>
> My personal preference would be that in the event nobody with anything 
> useful to present volunteers, we do the meet-and-greet.
>
>> [Anna wrote] (Since our leadtime basically got derailed by the OLPC 
>> conversation this month..)
> If someone is proposing a joint meeting, one of the first things to 
> check is whether they are willing to use the usual venue on the usual 
> date and time. Otherwise causes confusion.
>
> (Also, can we please do what Dennis used to - don't just schedule the 
> current month, try to tentatively schedule 3 months out. (and post a 
> compact tentative 3-mth schedule when discussing scheduling). This 
> means you always have a backup.)
>
> Anyway, back to April 12 meeting, if any.
>
> Regards,
> Stephen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft 
> Office Live! 
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
>


From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 19:33:07 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:33:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL [WAS April meeting query
	for you]
In-Reply-To: <70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703191133t4fcec2ddh14d3c912620d8436@mail.gmail.com>

PyWeek is coming up the first of April.  I wonder if anyone is
interested in giving a talk on PyGame.

Alternatively, I don't think anyone has ever given an introduction to
NumPy or SciPy.

Best Regards,
-jj

On 3/18/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>     i am trying to schedule many months in advance.
> i depend on the group, of course. I may have a
> woman who writes Python to implement math to
> generate pattern tiles--she's not in bayPIGgies, so
> i claim extra points. On the other hand, nothing is
> yet for sure, so i can't write up a schedule.
>     Myself, i'm a literal person: i mean what i say and
> expect others to so read. Your "CANCEL..." seems
> a ploy to scare members into action: 's okay, but
> not my style.
>     Seems to me the April meeting is either newbies
> night or meet and greet (I vote for meet and greet),
> depending on member response.
>     My deep thanks for your interest, both of you.
> jim
>
>
> On Mar 18, 2007, at 12:11 PM, Stephen McInerney wrote:
>
> > Jim & Anna,
> >
> > Might I suggest this change of subject line to get more urgent
> > attention from people?
> > In the past people would have written "CANCEL APRIL MEETING?". That
> > really gets attention fast.
> > It usually inspires someone to volunteer something.
> >
> > My personal preference would be that in the event nobody with anything
> > useful to present volunteers, we do the meet-and-greet.
> >
> >> [Anna wrote] (Since our leadtime basically got derailed by the OLPC
> >> conversation this month..)
> > If someone is proposing a joint meeting, one of the first things to
> > check is whether they are willing to use the usual venue on the usual
> > date and time. Otherwise causes confusion.
> >
> > (Also, can we please do what Dennis used to - don't just schedule the
> > current month, try to tentatively schedule 3 months out. (and post a
> > compact tentative 3-mth schedule when discussing scheduling). This
> > means you always have a backup.)
> >
> > Anyway, back to April 12 meeting, if any.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Stephen
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft
> > Office Live!
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From annaraven at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 20:19:57 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:19:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL [WAS April meeting query
	for you]
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90703191133t4fcec2ddh14d3c912620d8436@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
	<c41f67b90703191133t4fcec2ddh14d3c912620d8436@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703191219maf5f76bn44f24d982cbc8a60@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/19/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> PyWeek is coming up the first of April.  I wonder if anyone is
> interested in giving a talk on PyGame.



I would love to *hear* a talk on PyGame!  A very fast "intro"/tutorial would
be great for us newbies to it. I keep seeing kewl things done with it but
don't have the background of some of its assumptions about how things fit
together.

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 21:13:03 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:13:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]  SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90703191133t4fcec2ddh14d3c912620d8436@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F12ECA11DB6FA58BE56CA09A0760@phx.gbl>

>From: "Shannon -jj Behrens" <jjinux at gmail.com>
>
>Alternatively, I don't think anyone has ever given an introduction to NumPy 
>or SciPy.

+1 that idea.

Do you want to put out a call for a speaker on SciPy list?
(including preferred date,time and location, and also cc: baypiggies).
Many of them are in SoCal or spread around but there should be some folks 
from LBL, NASA and other local.

If so here are their contact details:

Send SciPy-user mailing list submissions to
	scipy-user at scipy.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/scipy-user
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	scipy-user-request at scipy.org

_________________________________________________________________
5.5%* 30 year fixed mortgage rate. Good credit refinance. Up to 5 free 
quotes - *Terms 
https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2a5d&s=4056&p=5117&disc=y&vers=910


From mac at Wireless.Com  Mon Mar 19 21:31:21 2007
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:31:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F12ECA11DB6FA58BE56CA09A0760@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY131-F12ECA11DB6FA58BE56CA09A0760@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0703191329570.6353@S.culver.net>

I would _love_ to have a speaker on NumPy and SciPy.  especially if the "tutorial" had some cool demos, too.

-Mike


On Mon, 19 Mar 2007, Stephen McInerney wrote:


>> From: "Shannon -jj Behrens" <jjinux at gmail.com>
>>
>> Alternatively, I don't think anyone has ever given an introduction to NumPy
>> or SciPy.
>
> +1 that idea.
>
> Do you want to put out a call for a speaker on SciPy list?
> (including preferred date,time and location, and also cc: baypiggies).
> Many of them are in SoCal or spread around but there should be some folks
> from LBL, NASA and other local.
>
> If so here are their contact details:
>
> Send SciPy-user mailing list submissions to
> 	scipy-user at scipy.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/scipy-user
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	scipy-user-request at scipy.org

From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 01:54:34 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:54:34 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F12ECA11DB6FA58BE56CA09A0760@phx.gbl>
References: <c41f67b90703191133t4fcec2ddh14d3c912620d8436@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F12ECA11DB6FA58BE56CA09A0760@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/19/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >From: "Shannon -jj Behrens" <jjinux at gmail.com>
> >
> >Alternatively, I don't think anyone has ever given an introduction to NumPy
> >or SciPy.
>
> +1 that idea.
>
> Do you want to put out a call for a speaker on SciPy list?
> (including preferred date,time and location, and also cc: baypiggies).
> Many of them are in SoCal or spread around but there should be some folks
> from LBL, NASA and other local.
>
> If so here are their contact details:
>
> Send SciPy-user mailing list submissions to
>         scipy-user at scipy.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/scipy-user
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         scipy-user-request at scipy.org

I don't feel comfortable doing it myself because I don't need SciPy or
NumPy.  However, I figured someone else on this list either could give
the talk or could find someone else to give the talk.

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 02:04:48 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:04:48 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>

Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
There are tons of good people on SciPy list.

I vote +1.


(The way to find a speaker is via scipy-user list:
         scipy-user at scipy.org
         http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/scipy-user
)

Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
Interest Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate 
new payment 
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18466&moid=7581


From rbradley at projectway.com  Tue Mar 20 02:12:12 2007
From: rbradley at projectway.com (Rand Bradley)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:12:12 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
References: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3a3f04f50703191812p4c7eaff3u3a5277056c75c69@mail.gmail.com>

-1   ;)

On 3/19/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> There are tons of good people on SciPy list.
>
> I vote +1.
>
>
> (The way to find a speaker is via scipy-user list:
>          scipy-user at scipy.org
>          http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/scipy-user
> )
>
> Stephen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Interest Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate
> new payment
>
> http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18466&moid=7581
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Regards,

Rand Bradley
Projectway, LLC
Phone:  (415) 430-5535
Email:   rbradley at projectway.com
http://www.projectway.com
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From kelly at nttmcl.com  Tue Mar 20 02:14:41 2007
From: kelly at nttmcl.com (Kelly Yancey)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:14:41 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <45FF3581.90909@nttmcl.com>

Stephen McInerney wrote:
> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> There are tons of good people on SciPy list.
> 
> I vote +1.
> 

   +1.  I've used SciPy to generate some normal distribution plots and 
used their stats package's cumulative distribution function to calculate 
"percentile rankings".  I found the experience both frustrating (the 
documentation was weak in places) and rewarding.  Hopefully with a 
proper introduction from someone who actually knows what they are doing, 
I can get more of the latter and less of the former. :)

   Kelly



From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 02:16:56 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:16:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
References: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703191816j75b0ff08rc08fef749167cf5d@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/19/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> There are tons of good people on SciPy list.
>
> I vote +1.
>
>
> (The way to find a speaker is via scipy-user list:
>          scipy-user at scipy.org
>          http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/scipy-user
> )

+1

I don't even know what I don't know yet ;)

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From davidlmontgomery at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 02:31:33 2007
From: davidlmontgomery at gmail.com (David Montgomery)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:31:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
Message-ID: <96d4cf580703191831m39c446ebx823fb772b531b690@mail.gmail.com>

+1 for SciPy/NumPy

(I'd also enjoy seeing an introduction to PyGame.)

> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:04:48 -0700
> From: "Stephen McInerney" <spmcinerney at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
> To: jjinux at gmail.com
> Cc: baypiggies at python.org
> Message-ID: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> There are tons of good people on SciPy list.
>
> I vote +1.

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 03:29:03 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:29:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
References: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0703191929m1d2a840ak1672fb0cd11408c@mail.gmail.com>

+1

On 3/19/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> There are tons of good people on SciPy list.
>
> I vote +1.
>

From whitaker at google.com  Tue Mar 20 03:04:17 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:04:17 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
References: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <997a56990703191904q80dc310jc1614685aa93f63c@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/19/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> There are tons of good people on SciPy list.
>
> I vote +1.
>

I vote an emphatic, but non-summable "hell yeah!"

Integer form: +1

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From lrosengreen at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 04:14:42 2007
From: lrosengreen at gmail.com (Lars Rosengreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:14:42 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
References: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4302c0c10703192014m75e6a532x9223e0ecc7323163@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/19/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> There are tons of good people on SciPy list.



1+ :)
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From keith at dartworks.biz  Tue Mar 20 04:35:05 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:35:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
References: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070319203505.5058948e@psyche.corp.google.com>

Stephen McInerney wrote the following on 2007-03-19 at 18:04 PDT:
===
> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
===

+1 :-)

-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From jim at well.com  Tue Mar 20 14:25:14 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:25:14 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <20070319203505.5058948e@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
	<20070319203505.5058948e@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <3704be46227f9861a77ee2de578e662d@well.com>


    The SciPy/NumPy topic activity is compelling.
Where to find someone? I've signed up with
both the SciPy and NumPy mailing lists and will
put out a query hopefully this evening.
    If any of you know of someone or are already
a member of SciPy or NumPy mailing lists or
another relevant group, please solicit (and let
me know)--thanks.

    Wesley's offered to present, so he's the backup,
and many thanks, Wesley. Here's his summary:
- sockets and network programming
- internet client programming
- web/cgi programming
- programming microsoft office (win32 COM client programming)
    For myself, the first three are very interesting.

    Very soon, a few days probably, I'll have a list
of talks for the next few months. Took a while to
line things up.


On Mar 19, 2007, at 7:35 PM, Keith Dart ? wrote:

> Stephen McInerney wrote the following on 2007-03-19 at 18:04 PDT:
> ===
>> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
>> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> ===
>
> +1 :-)
>
> -- 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
>    public key: ID: 19017044
>    <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
>    
> =====================================================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From kenobi at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 16:29:16 2007
From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:29:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
References: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY131-F18AA9382119270EA534B50A0750@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <f0aa69930703200829y7296be36ic30d6c3a65e0fbc0@mail.gmail.com>

+1.

There are a bunch of scientists and engineers in NASA Ames, Lockheed
Martin who probably would be interested in this, but are fairly
clueless about Python.  I know it's not a newbies night topic, but I'm
inclined to invite them.

A lot of NumPy work originates from NASA Goddard, which oversees the
Space Telescope Science Institute, which oversees Hubble, which was
built by Lockheed Martin in Sunnyvale.

--Rick Kwan

On 3/19/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> There are tons of good people on SciPy list.
>

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 17:43:32 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:43:32 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
In-Reply-To: <3704be46227f9861a77ee2de578e662d@well.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F134AEFC6583C53506B1B96A0750@phx.gbl>

Hi Jim,

Just mail a 'CALL FOR SPEAKER' to those lists (and cc: baypiggies)
There are tons of interesting people and things going on on scipy-user.
(signal processing, astronomical, FEM)

Based on past experiences, people's idea of "speaking" differs widely,
so include guidelines.
They definitely need slides, and  pictures and code samples are good.
An interactive demo with laptop is best.
Get a preview of their slides and verify it looks ok and they are prepared.

While you're at it, you could also invite people from scipy-user to 
subscribe
to baypiggies.

Regards,
Stephen



>From: jim stockford <jim at well.com>
>To: keith at dartworks.biz
>CC: baypiggies at python.org
>Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
>Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:25:14 -0800
>
>
>     The SciPy/NumPy topic activity is compelling.
>Where to find someone? I've signed up with
>both the SciPy and NumPy mailing lists and will
>put out a query hopefully this evening.
>     If any of you know of someone or are already
>a member of SciPy or NumPy mailing lists or
>another relevant group, please solicit (and let
>me know)--thanks.
>
>     Wesley's offered to present, so he's the backup,
>and many thanks, Wesley. Here's his summary:
>- sockets and network programming
>- internet client programming
>- web/cgi programming
>- programming microsoft office (win32 COM client programming)
>     For myself, the first three are very interesting.
>
>     Very soon, a few days probably, I'll have a list
>of talks for the next few months. Took a while to
>line things up.
>
>
>On Mar 19, 2007, at 7:35 PM, Keith Dart ?? wrote:
>
> > Stephen McInerney wrote the following on 2007-03-19 at 18:04 PDT:
> > ===
> >> Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> >> on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> > ===
> >
> > +1 :-)
> >
> > --
> > --
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >    Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
> >    public key: ID: 19017044
> >    <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
> >
> > =====================================================================
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>Baypiggies at python.org
>To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

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Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office 
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From ken at seehart.com  Tue Mar 20 19:35:47 2007
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:35:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90703191133t4fcec2ddh14d3c912620d8436@mail.gmail.com>	<BAY131-F12ECA11DB6FA58BE56CA09A0760@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90703191754n1ff35da2sb25db52d3cb5a883@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46002983.9070206@seehart.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> On 3/19/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>   
>>> From: "Shannon -jj Behrens" <jjinux at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Alternatively, I don't think anyone has ever given an introduction to NumPy
>>> or SciPy.
>>>       
>> +1 that idea.
>>
>>     
+1.03


- Ken




From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 19:09:07 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:09:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] OT: Robert Stephenson- please email me privately
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0703201109j53f877e8v58b98d57ebac4974@mail.gmail.com>

OT: Robert Stephenson- please email me privately

Thanks- and apologies for the OT bandwidth

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Mar 20 22:13:05 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:13:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL [WAS April meeting query
	for you]
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703191219maf5f76bn44f24d982cbc8a60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
	<c41f67b90703191133t4fcec2ddh14d3c912620d8436@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703191219maf5f76bn44f24d982cbc8a60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070320211305.GA23263@panix.com>

On Mon, Mar 19, 2007, Anna Ravenscroft wrote:
> On 3/19/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>PyWeek is coming up the first of April.  I wonder if anyone is
>>interested in giving a talk on PyGame.
> 
> I would love to *hear* a talk on PyGame!  A very fast "intro"/tutorial would
> be great for us newbies to it. I keep seeing kewl things done with it but
> don't have the background of some of its assumptions about how things fit
> together.

Not for April, but I might be able to do a PyGame intro/demo for May or
June.  I saw a message from Jim Stockford about planning for the next
several months being almost done -- I'm wondering whether it would make
more sense to do that on-list.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Typing is cheap.  Thinking is expensive."  --Roy Smith

From annaraven at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 22:42:21 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:42:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL [WAS April meeting query
	for you]
In-Reply-To: <20070320211305.GA23263@panix.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
	<c41f67b90703191133t4fcec2ddh14d3c912620d8436@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610703191219maf5f76bn44f24d982cbc8a60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070320211305.GA23263@panix.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703201442k618fb2bcjb0a9accdf3bd9fdb@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/20/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2007, Anna Ravenscroft wrote:
> > On 3/19/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>PyWeek is coming up the first of April.  I wonder if anyone is
> >>interested in giving a talk on PyGame.
> >
> > I would love to *hear* a talk on PyGame!  A very fast "intro"/tutorial
> would
> > be great for us newbies to it. I keep seeing kewl things done with it
> but
> > don't have the background of some of its assumptions about how things
> fit
> > together.
>
> Not for April, but I might be able to do a PyGame intro/demo for May or
> June.  I saw a message from Jim Stockford about planning for the next
> several months being almost done -- I'm wondering whether it would make
> more sense to do that on-list.
> --



Um, yeah. I'd love to see your tutorial in May. June would be during finals
week so I can't. But July would work. ;-)


-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar 22 01:17:14 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:17:14 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
Message-ID: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>

Maybe Baypiggies can have a Python snippets night? or a snippets area
on the web site.

Here is one I recently did. Any comments? Improvements?

def flatten(alist):
    rv = []
    for val in alist:
        if isinstance(val, list):
            rv.extend(flatten(val))
        else:
            rv.append(val)
    return rv


This takes a list that may have embedded lists, to any depth, and
flattens it to a single list.



-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 01:31:23 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:31:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0703211731w341d68ecod77ba34d4a2ac537@mail.gmail.com>

+1

Should we impose 3 snippets (max) per person, 1 minute each?

Each person presenting a snippet might have one slide for the snippet,
and one slide demonstration its use. This would enforce a minimal
number of lines for each (assuming a font size that is easily readable
from the back of the room).



On 3/21/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Maybe Baypiggies can have a Python snippets night? or a snippets area
> on the web site.
>

From aleax at google.com  Thu Mar 22 01:32:27 2007
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:32:27 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0703211732k6ebad64ehd8e5751083b91be4@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/21/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
>
> Maybe Baypiggies can have a Python snippets night? or a snippets area
> on the web site.
>
> Here is one I recently did. Any comments? Improvements?
>
> def flatten(alist):
>     rv = []
>     for val in alist:
>         if isinstance(val, list):
>             rv.extend(flatten(val))
>         else:
>             rv.append(val)
>     return rv
>
>
> This takes a list that may have embedded lists, to any depth, and
> flattens it to a single list.


A generator equivalent can sometimes be more flexible (you might want to
process the leaves one by one rather than building their list in memory,
etc), and is also easily expressed:

def flatgen(alist):
  for val in alist:
    if isinstance(val, list):
        for val in flatgen(val): yield val
    else:
        yield val

list(flatgen(alist)) is of course equivalent to your function (though
probably slower:-).

It may be interesting that flatgen makes it easy to eliminate recursion
(maybe interesting if the nesting level can be thousands-deep:-) by keeping
an explicit stack (warning, untested code):

def flatgeni(alist):
  stack = [iter(alist)]
  while stack:
    try:
      val = stack[-1].next()
    except StopIteration:
      stack.pop()
      continue
    if isinstance(val, list):
      stack.append(iter(val))
    else:
      yield val



Alex
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 03:08:15 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:08:15 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0703211731w341d68ecod77ba34d4a2ac537@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<8249c4ac0703211731w341d68ecod77ba34d4a2ac537@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703211908x5d78e145gc4d4db09284e4f2d@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/21/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> +1
>
> Should we impose 3 snippets (max) per person, 1 minute each?
>
> Each person presenting a snippet might have one slide for the snippet,
> and one slide demonstration its use. This would enforce a minimal
> number of lines for each (assuming a font size that is easily readable
> from the back of the room).



Get a white board. Make them write it.
That'll keep it short.


-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 03:12:16 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:12:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/21/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Maybe Baypiggies can have a Python snippets night? or a snippets area
> on the web site.

A good idea, and actually related to another idea I had today.  I was
thinking about a "There's more than one way to do it in Python, too"
type-thing, and I was going to solicit examples from the list.  I
figured it could generate some instructive examples for newbies night.

As an example:

seq = [1,2,3]  # or almost any collection, string, etc

# Here is an expression to check for the nonexistence of an item in a
collection,
# that is idiomatic in many languages
not 1 in seq    # ie. not (1 in seq)

# But in python, you can also say:
1 not in seq


A simple example, but I find the second one more pythonic, and worth
knowing early on.  I'd love to see other simple contributions of
pythonic "There is more than one way to do it". :)


> Here is one I recently did. Any comments? Improvements?
>
> def flatten(alist):

[snipped]

Keith,

   Just FYI, there is a flatten function in Tkinter.py (which was
written pre-2.0, and is showing its age, but it works fine...).  The
modern version is written in C, but the original is still in
Tkinter.py (as a fallback):

def _flatten(tuple):
    """Internal function."""
    res = ()
    for item in tuple:
        if type(item) in (TupleType, ListType):
            res = res + _flatten(item)
        elif item is not None:
            res = res + (item,)
    return res


Note the structural similarity with your code, just done in an "older"
style (ie. TupleType, use of "tuple" variable, etc.)  Note also that
the Tkinter.py version (which isn't used anymore) exhibits quadratic
run time behavior, due to repeated tuple appends.  The "fix" was what
you did; to use list appends.

This flatten function has some nostalgic meaning for me: I had just
discovered Python, and in early 1998 noticed the quadratic behavior,
and posted to the mailing list.  It prompted a reply from Guido, and
even got him to rewrite it in C for version 1.5, with linear behavior.
 Ahhh, the memories. :)

So, just to be clear, the modern tkinter _flatten is NOT quadratic,
but linear and C.  Which means, Keith, if you want a really fast
flatten(), try Tkinter._flatten().

Chad

From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar 22 04:22:56 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:22:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>

Chad Netzer wrote the following on 2007-03-21 at 19:12 PDT:
===
> So, just to be clear, the modern tkinter _flatten is NOT quadratic,
> but linear and C.  Which means, Keith, if you want a really fast
> flatten(), try Tkinter._flatten().

===

Wow, ok. I didn't know about that one. But that's typical: re-inventing
the wheel. ;-) But there is one problem: I don't always build (or
install) Tkinter on my systems.

It's so general, I think it should be a built-in function and not in a
GUI toolkit. 

Speaking of that, how do people here feel about inserting general
purpose functions like that into the __builtin__ namespace? I don't see
a problem with it, and in fact already do that in the pyNMS framework.
It's automatic, so if you install pyNMS you automatically get them (via
sitecustomize) into builtins and can use them in your code. I added
this flatten() function there already.



-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From jim at well.com  Thu Mar 22 05:37:56 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:37:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL [WAS April meeting query
	for you]
In-Reply-To: <70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
Message-ID: <94aebebfc50c5f45ec8242fa0d872b84@well.com>


    i was wrong again. catherine jones, of patternand,
has joined the bayPIGgies mailing list. she claims
to be willing and able to present sometime soon (not
April).

    I sent a call for speakers to both the numpy and the
scipy mailing lists--they sure are an active bunch. I
don't expect April from them, either.

    Contenders for April seem to be snippets, one of
Wesley Chun's topics (express preferences, please),
and/or meet and greet.
    It seems to me we can do all three--January discussion
included the idea of one or a few snippet presentations
for each meeting. Depending on Wesley's topic scope,
we could have an extended meet and greet session at
the end of the evening.

    Please do respond.
jim


From zia at cruzio.com  Thu Mar 22 07:07:12 2007
From: zia at cruzio.com (Doug Landauer)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:07:12 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <97a0e9f6f394cb20ac3a3abf04affba0@cruzio.com>

On Mar 21, 2007, at 8:22 PM, Keith Dart ? wrote:
> It's so general, I think it should be a built-in function and not in a
> GUI toolkit.

For what it's worth, Ruby's Array class has just such a "flatten" 
method.

> Speaking of that, how do people here feel about inserting general
> purpose functions like that into the __builtin__ namespace?

This sure seems more like it oughta be a method, which displays either 
a flaw
in Python's general duck-typing philosophy or a gap in my understanding
(possibly polluted by a couple years' worth of Ruby programming):

If we have come across the need/desire for a new general method that
should work just fine with anything that "quacks like a sequence", and
we would like to make it available to any sequence in any of our Python
code, and I want to invoke it as foo.method for any foo that is
a sequence, then where/how would I define such a method?

     -- Just curious,
     -- Doug L.


From jim at well.com  Thu Mar 22 07:15:01 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:15:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [SciPy-user] call for speakers (bayPIGgies)
Message-ID: <03b9add8f6f7d55576d779a085f513ca@well.com>


check out eric jones list of numpy topics.
got favorites?

> Here is a quick overview of possible topics.  I teach a 3-4 day course 
> on this stuff quite a bit, so there are a number of 1 hour sections I 
> can pull out. :-)
>
>    Introduction to Numpy
>    Tour of SciPy algorithms (lin alg, signal processing, optimization, 
> etc.)
>    Interactive 2D visualization with Chaco.
>    3D visualization with Mayavi/TVTK.
>    Algorithm prototyping with Weave.
>    Wrapping C/C++/Fortan Numeric algorithms (swig, f2py, weave, pyrex) 
> and what to watch out for when doing it.
>
> On related topics but less strictly numeric oriented (and more 
> Enthought tools)
>
>    User interfaces with Traits
>    Plug-in based scientific applications with Envisage
>
> Also, I can give more "survey" related talks that skims over the top 
> of a set of these (usually numpy, scipy, 2d/3D viz) as well as demoing 
> some scientific apps written in Python.  My hunch is this survey is 
> most useful to people, but diving deep into one might also be more 
> interesting depending on the crowd.
>
> thanks,
> eric jones


From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar 22 07:43:57 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:43:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <97a0e9f6f394cb20ac3a3abf04affba0@cruzio.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<97a0e9f6f394cb20ac3a3abf04affba0@cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <20070321234357.54764422@psyche.corp.google.com>

Doug Landauer wrote the following on 2007-03-21 at 23:07 PDT:
===
> This sure seems more like it oughta be a method, which displays either 
> a flaw
> in Python's general duck-typing philosophy or...

Not really. Consider the str() function. It can "stringify" any object.
The object can control how it is stringified by defining the __str__
"magic method". But the user/consumer of it never calls it directly. 

Another example is my own "sgn()" function: 

def sgn(val):
    """Sign function. Returns -1 if val negative, 0 if zero, and 1 if
    positive.
    """
    try:
        return val._sgn_()
    except AttributeError:
        if val == 0:
            return 0
        if val > 0:
            return 1
        else:
            return -1

I defined some objects (modified PhysicalQuantity from
ScientificPython) with that "custom-magic-method" so that it does the
right thing with those, but otherwise assumes a number type. In other
words, by using a function like this instead of a method you can put
some logic in it that makes it work for anything, even if it doesn't
have the proper method.

The "flatten" method is like that. It can really flatten any iterable,
not just lists (however, you always get a list back). Alex has a good
suggestion to also make this an iterable itself.


> If we have come across the need/desire for a new general method that
> should work just fine with anything that "quacks like a sequence", and
> we would like to make it available to any sequence in any of our Python
> code, and I want to invoke it as foo.method for any foo that is
> a sequence, then where/how would I define such a method?

That's what I'm asking. ;-) There seems to be no clear guideline for
this, so what I do is insert them into __builtins__ namespace. But not
as methods, as str-like functions. 




-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com  Thu Mar 22 07:30:27 2007
From: davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com (Monte Davidoff)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:30:27 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46022283.6080807@alluvialsw.com>

Chad Netzer wrote:
> ... I was
> thinking about a "There's more than one way to do it in Python, too"
> type-thing, and I was going to solicit examples from the list.  I
> figured it could generate some instructive examples for newbies night.

> ... I'd love to see other simple contributions of
> pythonic "There is more than one way to do it". :)

This is one of my favorites:

# Here are expressions that are idiomatic in many languages to check
# that a number is within an interval:

	x >= a and x <= b
	a <= x and x <= b

# But in Python, you can also say:

	a <= x <= b

Another simple one worth knowing early on.

Monte

From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 08:30:21 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:30:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL [WAS April meeting query
	for you]
In-Reply-To: <94aebebfc50c5f45ec8242fa0d872b84@well.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
	<94aebebfc50c5f45ec8242fa0d872b84@well.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580703220030q5651beedu529365212c043422@mail.gmail.com>

>     Contenders for April seem to be snippets, one of
> Wesley Chun's topics (express preferences, please),
> and/or meet and greet.


i'd like to see a SciPy/NumPy talk if possible, as i do not believe we
have had one in recent history.

my talks are all packaged and ready to go as backups in case things
don't materialize.  they are a direct response to those who desire
more "tutorial-like" talks based on the recent survey. since i give
these talks as part of my courses, i'm comfortable delivering them at
any time should there be a need.

cheers,
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 09:57:42 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 01:57:42 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <46022283.6080807@alluvialsw.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F3921CA71D1A897754079EFA06B0@phx.gbl>

Monte, about this nested compare "a <= x <= b"

Q1: Since what version has it been in? I never knew about it!

Q2: Can anyone comment on the efficiency of
"a <= x <= b" vs "x in xrange(a,b)" (obviously the latter is worse, and only 
good for integer a,b)
In particular, is Python smart enough to binary-search the xrange object? 
Just curious.

Q3: C++ people would balk at the idiom "a <= x <= b"
since it does not evaluate right-to-left. (The two <= subexpressions
cannot be separately evaluated from the other. So it has to be
parsed and evaluated all in one)

Q4: are the idioms "a == x == b", "a != x != b" and "a is x is b" legal?

Regards,
Stephen


>From: Monte Davidoff <davidoff56 at alluvialsw.com>
>
># Here are expressions that are idiomatic in many languages to check
># that a number is within an interval:
>
>	x >= a and x <= b
>	a <= x and x <= b
>
># But in Python, you can also say:
>
>	a <= x <= b
>
>Another simple one worth knowing early on.
>
>Monte

_________________________________________________________________
Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN 
Presents today. 
http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001


From aleax at google.com  Thu Mar 22 18:15:38 2007
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:15:38 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F3921CA71D1A897754079EFA06B0@phx.gbl>
References: <46022283.6080807@alluvialsw.com>
	<BAY131-F3921CA71D1A897754079EFA06B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0703221015t9c59d21nde059fdacb46b781@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/22/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Monte, about this nested compare "a <= x <= b"
>
> Q1: Since what version has it been in? I never knew about it!


I was there in 1.5 when I got started with Python; I believe it's quite old.

Q2: Can anyone comment on the efficiency of
> "a <= x <= b" vs "x in xrange(a,b)" (obviously the latter is worse, and
> only
> good for integer a,b)
> In particular, is Python smart enough to binary-search the xrange object?
> Just curious.


Type 'xrange' does not even define a __contains__ method.  I wonder how a
patch implementing one would be seen by python-dev; I'm pretty sure it would
be rejected if it tried to use binary search, though (why take O(log N) time
if you're going to the trouble of implementing __contains__ when it
obviously can be done in O(1) time?).

Q3: C++ people would balk at the idiom "a <= x <= b"
> since it does not evaluate right-to-left. (The two <= subexpressions
> cannot be separately evaluated from the other. So it has to be
> parsed and evaluated all in one)


 ???  comparison chaining short-circuits, so OF COURSE a and b ARE
"separately evaluated"!  E.g:

>>> 23 < 15 < (7/0)
False

the 7/0 is NOT attempted (it would raise if it were) -- no need, because the
23 < 15 check has already failed.

In C++, a && b && c would similarly be evaluated left-to-right, with
short-circuiting, so I don't see what objections there could be.
Short-circuiting operators (&& and || in C and C++, and, or and comparison
chaining in Python) always go left-to-right.

Q4: are the idioms "a == x == b", "a != x != b" and "a is x is b" legal?


Yep, chaining applies to all comparison operators, including ==, !=, is, and
is not.


Alex
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From dreid at dreid.org  Thu Mar 22 18:20:24 2007
From: dreid at dreid.org (David Reid)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:20:24 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [SciPy-user] call for speakers (bayPIGgies)
In-Reply-To: <03b9add8f6f7d55576d779a085f513ca@well.com>
References: <03b9add8f6f7d55576d779a085f513ca@well.com>
Message-ID: <11BA6044-73A0-4D9E-AF0C-0497CA959EC1@dreid.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

+1 3d visualization

On Mar 21, 2007, at 11:15 PM, jim stockford wrote:

>
> check out eric jones list of numpy topics.
> got favorites?
>
>> Here is a quick overview of possible topics.  I teach a 3-4 day  
>> course
>> on this stuff quite a bit, so there are a number of 1 hour sections I
>> can pull out. :-)
>>
>>    Introduction to Numpy
>>    Tour of SciPy algorithms (lin alg, signal processing,  
>> optimization,
>> etc.)
>>    Interactive 2D visualization with Chaco.
>>    3D visualization with Mayavi/TVTK.
>>    Algorithm prototyping with Weave.
>>    Wrapping C/C++/Fortan Numeric algorithms (swig, f2py, weave,  
>> pyrex)
>> and what to watch out for when doing it.
>>
>> On related topics but less strictly numeric oriented (and more
>> Enthought tools)
>>
>>    User interfaces with Traits
>>    Plug-in based scientific applications with Envisage
>>
>> Also, I can give more "survey" related talks that skims over the top
>> of a set of these (usually numpy, scipy, 2d/3D viz) as well as  
>> demoing
>> some scientific apps written in Python.  My hunch is this survey is
>> most useful to people, but diving deep into one might also be more
>> interesting depending on the crowd.
>>
>> thanks,
>> eric jones
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

- -David
http://dreid.org

"Usually the protocol is this: I appoint someone for a task,
which they are not qualified to do.  Then, they have to fight
a bear if they don't want to do it." -- Glyph Lefkowitz




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From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 19:34:50 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:34:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [ANN] Python courses this Spring
Message-ID: <78b3a9580703221134s14d026ebgd59d1af30fb4f5c5@mail.gmail.com>

I'll be giving a variety of Python courses this Spring.  Daytime
courses are for visitors and locals who need Python training in the
shortest amount of time possible via consecutive workdays.  Python is
certainly gaining momentum as our February course filled up
completely!  Although I had planned on scheduling the same set to be
taught in November, it is likely that these May daytime sessions are
the last ones of 2007.

In contrast, I'm experimenting with a *weekly evening* course in
Silicon Valley designed mainly for locals.  It represents a viable
alternative to those who cannot take time off during the week as well
as being more budget-friendly, as I am partnering with a local
community college (Foothill) to offer this course.  Class takes place
on the main campus and you must register through the college to
attend.

For more information, such as cost and other course details, see the
corresponding websites below. Contact me privately if you have any
more questions.

cheers,
-wesley

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

DAYTIME
=======
- (Intensive) Introduction to Python (Mon-Wed, May 14-16)
- Advanced Python Programming (Wed-Fri, May 16-18)
- Advanced Python (short course; Thu-Fri, May 17-18)
- Core Python (Intro+Advanced combo; Mon-Fri, May 14-18)

These courses run daily 9a-5p and will take place in San Bruno right
near the San Francisco International Airport at the:

Staybridge Suites - San Francisco Airport
1350 Huntington Ave
San Bruno, CA  94066 USA
http://www.ichotelsgroup.com/h/d/sb/1/en/hd/sfobr

Discounts are available for students and teachers, as well as multiple
registrations from those working at the same company.  For more info
and registration, go to http://cyberwebconsulting.com (click on
"Python Training")

LOCALS: free parking and 101/280/380 access, BART across the street
and CalTrain down the road (San Bruno stations)

VISITORS: free hotel shuttle to/from the San Francisco airport, lots
of free food and wireless, 2-bedroom suites w/private baths and a
common work/living area available for traveling coworkers, and of
course, The City by the Bay
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

EVENING
=======
- Intermediate Python Programming (Tues, Apr 10-Jun 26)

This course will cover the same topics as the advanced course above as
well as critical portions of the intensive introductory course. It
will be held once a week on Tuesday evenings from 6-9:40p.

Foothill College
12345 El Monte Road
Los Altos Hills, CA  94022 USA
(right off 280, just south of Stanford)

http://www.foothill.edu/schedule/schedule.php
search for CIS 68L for Spring Quarter 2007

From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 19:44:47 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:44:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <97a0e9f6f394cb20ac3a3abf04affba0@cruzio.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<97a0e9f6f394cb20ac3a3abf04affba0@cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <a14a87410703221144w278f5e77i933e0d917e8c8694@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/21/07, Doug Landauer <zia at cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mar 21, 2007, at 8:22 PM, Keith Dart ? wrote:
> > It's so general, I think it should be a built-in function and not in a
> > GUI toolkit.
>
> For what it's worth, Ruby's Array class has just such a "flatten"
> method.

Actually, Python's numpy extension provides this as well, although
these arrays have fixed dimensionality, rather than the arbitrary
depths that one may encounter with sequences of sequences of
sequences...

And, in fact, if you have a known depth, you can construct a simple,
restricted "flatten" with the itertools module.  So, for example, to
make a list of 2-D or 3-D coordinates into a flat list:

import itertools

a = [[1,2], [3,4], [5,6]]   # list of 2-D coords, works for n-D coords as well
b = itertools.chain(*a)

list(b) == [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]

Chad

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 23:18:58 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:18:58 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [SciPy-user] call for speakers (bayPIGgies)
In-Reply-To: <03b9add8f6f7d55576d779a085f513ca@well.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F2D4D42BE9B65FD8ED5668A06B0@phx.gbl>


+1 brief survey of everything. Sounds awesome. - Stephen

>From: jim stockford <jim at well.com>
>To: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
>Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [SciPy-user] call for speakers (bayPIGgies)
>Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:15:01 -0800
>
>
>check out eric jones list of numpy topics.
>got favorites?
>
> > Here is a quick overview of possible topics.  I teach a 3-4 day course
> > on this stuff quite a bit, so there are a number of 1 hour sections I
> > can pull out. :-)
> >
> >    Introduction to Numpy
> >    Tour of SciPy algorithms (lin alg, signal processing, optimization,
> > etc.)
> >    Interactive 2D visualization with Chaco.
> >    3D visualization with Mayavi/TVTK.
> >    Algorithm prototyping with Weave.
> >    Wrapping C/C++/Fortan Numeric algorithms (swig, f2py, weave, pyrex)
> > and what to watch out for when doing it.
> >
> > On related topics but less strictly numeric oriented (and more
> > Enthought tools)
> >
> >    User interfaces with Traits
> >    Plug-in based scientific applications with Envisage
> >
> > Also, I can give more "survey" related talks that skims over the top
> > of a set of these (usually numpy, scipy, 2d/3D viz) as well as demoing
> > some scientific apps written in Python.  My hunch is this survey is
> > most useful to people, but diving deep into one might also be more
> > interesting depending on the crowd.
> >
> > thanks,
> > eric jones

_________________________________________________________________
Interest Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate 
new payment 
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18466&moid=7581


From annaraven at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 00:11:10 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:11:10 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [SciPy-user] call for speakers (bayPIGgies)
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F2D4D42BE9B65FD8ED5668A06B0@phx.gbl>
References: <03b9add8f6f7d55576d779a085f513ca@well.com>
	<BAY131-F2D4D42BE9B65FD8ED5668A06B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703221611p47671b4arf4319529527cc637@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/22/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> +1 brief survey of everything. Sounds awesome. - Stephen



+1 brief survey! I've always wondered what all these things were...



-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 00:28:55 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:28:55 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [SciPy-user] call for speakers (bayPIGgies)
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610703221611p47671b4arf4319529527cc637@mail.gmail.com>
References: <03b9add8f6f7d55576d779a085f513ca@well.com>
	<BAY131-F2D4D42BE9B65FD8ED5668A06B0@phx.gbl>
	<cb361a610703221611p47671b4arf4319529527cc637@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0703221628o1f254b5ci39620619e26cb63f@mail.gmail.com>

A brief survey of '42'

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 19:57:37 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 11:57:37 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python In a Nutshell, Second edition
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0703241157i221046f6oa126d101ffad0d23@mail.gmail.com>

Would anyone who has a copy of Python In a Nutshell, Second Edition
like to write a review for the publisher (O'Reilly), to be posted on
the BayPiggies web page?

Please contact me off list.

From kebarcla at comcast.net  Mon Mar 26 03:27:47 2007
From: kebarcla at comcast.net (K. Barclay)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 01:27:47 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wesley's great Python book
Message-ID: <032620070127.15810.460721930009E7E000003DC222135285730E040C9D0E0D0A05@comcast.net>


It would be great if Wesley presents at the April 12th meeting. I'm a longtime Java programmer who got interested in Python because I was doing a lot of awk/bourne shell scripting a couple months ago & wanted something more full-featured. I'm on page 875 of Core Python Programming and plan to take the Advanced Python course in May. I've been waiting to attend a Baypiggies meeting - if Wesley presents I'll definitely make the trip from SF!

-- Ken Barclay
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:34:50 -0700
> From: "wesley chun" <wescpy at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Baypiggies] [ANN] Python courses this Spring
> To: baypiggies at python.org
> Message-ID:
> 	<78b3a9580703221134s14d026ebgd59d1af30fb4f5c5 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> I'll be giving a variety of Python courses this Spring.  Daytime
> courses are for visitors and locals who need Python training in the
> shortest amount of time possible via consecutive workdays.  Python is
> certainly gaining momentum as our February course filled up
> completely!  Although I had planned on scheduling the same set to be
> taught in November, it is likely that these May daytime sessions are
> the last ones of 2007.
> 
> In contrast, I'm experimenting with a *weekly evening* course in
> Silicon Valley designed mainly for locals.  It represents a viable
> alternative to those who cannot take time off during the week as well
> as being more budget-friendly, as I am partnering with a local
> community college (Foothill) to offer this course.  Class takes place
> on the main campus and you must register through the college to
> attend.
> 
> For more information, such as cost and other course details, see the
> corresponding websites below. Contact me privately if you have any
> more questions.
> 
> cheers,
> -wesley
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
>     http://corepython.com
> 
> wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
> python training and technical consulting
> cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
> http://cyberwebconsulting.com
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> DAYTIME
> =======
> - (Intensive) Introduction to Python (Mon-Wed, May 14-16)
> - Advanced Python Programming (Wed-Fri, May 16-18)
> - Advanced Python (short course; Thu-Fri, May 17-18)
> - Core Python (Intro+Advanced combo; Mon-Fri, May 14-18)
> 
> These courses run daily 9a-5p and will take place in San Bruno right
> near the San Francisco International Airport at the:
> 
> Staybridge Suites - San Francisco Airport
> 1350 Huntington Ave
> San Bruno, CA  94066 USA
> http://www.ichotelsgroup.com/h/d/sb/1/en/hd/sfobr
> 
> Discounts are available for students and teachers, as well as multiple
> registrations from those working at the same company.  For more info
> and registration, go to http://cyberwebconsulting.com (click on
> "Python Training")
> 
> LOCALS: free parking and 101/280/380 access, BART across the street
> and CalTrain down the road (San Bruno stations)
> 
> VISITORS: free hotel shuttle to/from the San Francisco airport, lots
> of free food and wireless, 2-bedroom suites w/private baths and a
> common work/living area available for traveling coworkers, and of
> course, The City by the Bay
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> EVENING
> =======
> - Intermediate Python Programming (Tues, Apr 10-Jun 26)
> 
> This course will cover the same topics as the advanced course above as
> well as critical portions of the intensive introductory course. It
> will be held once a week on Tuesday evenings from 6-9:40p.
> 
> Foothill College
> 12345 El Monte Road
> Los Altos Hills, CA  94022 USA
> (right off 280, just south of Stanford)
> 
> http://www.foothill.edu/schedule/schedule.php
> search for CIS 68L for Spring Quarter 2007
> 
> 

From wescpy at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 08:04:29 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 23:04:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wesley's great Python book
In-Reply-To: <032620070127.15810.460721930009E7E000003DC222135285730E040C9D0E0D0A05@comcast.net>
References: <032620070127.15810.460721930009E7E000003DC222135285730E040C9D0E0D0A05@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580703252304wc28e040jf33e7ef29b2ec25@mail.gmail.com>

ken,

thanks for the pressure.  :-)  seriously, i think we have enough
material for a combo newbies nite + snippets.  in fact, i think we
shouold always do snippets when the talk schedule for any given
meeting evening isn't full.  they're a *good thing*, and there's
nothing like introducing python to all your curious friends and
coworkers, then showing them some magic incantations.

that's what i think... let's see what everyone's feedback is to jim.
my talks are best suited for "emergency evenings" when we really don't
have any plans or someone cancels at the last minute.  people have
expressed interest in more "tutorial-style" talks, so i would be glad
to contribute at those times. some folks already contributed some
snippets via the mailing list, so it would be interesting to hear
about that code as well as discuss them, i.e., tweaks, possible
refactorings, etc.

for ken and all newbies on this mailing list, a genuine WELCOME to
Python is in order!

cheers,
-wesley

On 3/25/07, K. Barclay <kebarcla at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> It would be great if Wesley presents at the April 12th meeting. I'm a longtime Java programmer who got interested in Python because I was doing a lot of awk/bourne shell scripting a couple months ago & wanted something more full-featured. I'm on page 875 of Core Python Programming and plan to take the Advanced Python course in May. I've been waiting to attend a Baypiggies meeting - if Wesley presents I'll definitely make the trip from SF!

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 10:29:33 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 01:29:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]  /SciPy?
Message-ID: <BAY131-F3678F512136A299D3D28D1A06F0@phx.gbl>

Rick,

Did you put out the word on NASA + Lockheed grapevine?
Did it get any response? (Chad can you publicize it?)

I really would love this to happen -  at this point it's looking like May or 
beyond.

Thanks,
Stephen

>From: "Rick Kwan" <kenobi at gmail.com>
>To: baypiggies at python.org
>Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] SPEAKERS NEEDED FOR APRIL /SciPy?
>Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:29:16 -0700
>
>+1.
>
>There are a bunch of scientists and engineers in NASA Ames, Lockheed
>Martin who probably would be interested in this, but are fairly
>clueless about Python.  I know it's not a newbies night topic, but I'm
>inclined to invite them.
>
>A lot of NumPy work originates from NASA Goddard, which oversees the
>Space Telescope Science Institute, which oversees Hubble, which was
>built by Lockheed Martin in Sunnyvale.
>
>--Rick Kwan
>
>On 3/19/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Ok, but could we please have a quick ballot +1 / 0 / -1
> > on how interested people are on the topic of SciPy/NumPy?
> > There are tons of good people on SciPy list.

_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. 
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Mar 26 15:59:43 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:59:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] May plans?
In-Reply-To: <94aebebfc50c5f45ec8242fa0d872b84@well.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
	<94aebebfc50c5f45ec8242fa0d872b84@well.com>
Message-ID: <20070326135943.GA3889@panix.com>

On Wed, Mar 21, 2007, jim stockford wrote:
>
>     i was wrong again. catherine jones, of patternand,
> has joined the bayPIGgies mailing list. she claims
> to be willing and able to present sometime soon (not
> April).

What's the plan for May?  Anna expressed some interest in PyGame, but I
haven't seen anyone else clamoring for it -- and if I'm going to do it,
I need plenty of advance notice to prepare.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Typing is cheap.  Thinking is expensive."  --Roy Smith

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 18:52:49 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:52:49 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] May plans?
In-Reply-To: <20070326135943.GA3889@panix.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
	<94aebebfc50c5f45ec8242fa0d872b84@well.com>
	<20070326135943.GA3889@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703260952v3ae6a50ck35060f1478182ec9@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/26/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2007, jim stockford wrote:
> >
> >     i was wrong again. catherine jones, of patternand,
> > has joined the bayPIGgies mailing list. she claims
> > to be willing and able to present sometime soon (not
> > April).
>
> What's the plan for May?  Anna expressed some interest in PyGame, but I
> haven't seen anyone else clamoring for it -- and if I'm going to do it,
> I need plenty of advance notice to prepare.

Did I already mention that PyWeek starts April 1?  Write a game in a
week!  Wahoo!!!

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 19:56:23 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:56:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [SciPy-user] call for speakers (bayPIGgies)
In-Reply-To: <03b9add8f6f7d55576d779a085f513ca@well.com>
References: <03b9add8f6f7d55576d779a085f513ca@well.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703261056h179de423k7b0a047baf473b9c@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/21/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
> check out eric jones list of numpy topics.
> got favorites?
>
> > Here is a quick overview of possible topics.  I teach a 3-4 day course
> > on this stuff quite a bit, so there are a number of 1 hour sections I
> > can pull out. :-)
> >
> >    Introduction to Numpy
> >    Tour of SciPy algorithms (lin alg, signal processing, optimization,
> > etc.)
> >    Interactive 2D visualization with Chaco.
> >    3D visualization with Mayavi/TVTK.
> >    Algorithm prototyping with Weave.
> >    Wrapping C/C++/Fortan Numeric algorithms (swig, f2py, weave, pyrex)
> > and what to watch out for when doing it.
> >
> > On related topics but less strictly numeric oriented (and more
> > Enthought tools)
> >
> >    User interfaces with Traits
> >    Plug-in based scientific applications with Envisage
> >
> > Also, I can give more "survey" related talks that skims over the top
> > of a set of these (usually numpy, scipy, 2d/3D viz) as well as demoing
> > some scientific apps written in Python.  My hunch is this survey is
> > most useful to people, but diving deep into one might also be more
> > interesting depending on the crowd.
> >
> > thanks,
> > eric jones

+1

I'd love to get an overview and then see some visualization.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 20:00:35 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:00:35 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0703211731w341d68ecod77ba34d4a2ac537@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<8249c4ac0703211731w341d68ecod77ba34d4a2ac537@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703261100q4ff3c382x5b010d801e6466e6@mail.gmail.com>

I think you might need a bit more than a minute, but otherwise I agree.

Best Regards,
-jj

On 3/21/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> Should we impose 3 snippets (max) per person, 1 minute each?
>
> Each person presenting a snippet might have one slide for the snippet,
> and one slide demonstration its use. This would enforce a minimal
> number of lines for each (assuming a font size that is easily readable
> from the back of the room).
>
>
>
> On 3/21/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> > Maybe Baypiggies can have a Python snippets night? or a snippets area
> > on the web site.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 20:04:25 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:04:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/21/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Chad Netzer wrote the following on 2007-03-21 at 19:12 PDT:
> ===
> > So, just to be clear, the modern tkinter _flatten is NOT quadratic,
> > but linear and C.  Which means, Keith, if you want a really fast
> > flatten(), try Tkinter._flatten().
>
> ===
>
> Wow, ok. I didn't know about that one. But that's typical: re-inventing
> the wheel. ;-) But there is one problem: I don't always build (or
> install) Tkinter on my systems.
>
> It's so general, I think it should be a built-in function and not in a
> GUI toolkit.
>
> Speaking of that, how do people here feel about inserting general
> purpose functions like that into the __builtin__ namespace? I don't see
> a problem with it, and in fact already do that in the pyNMS framework.
> It's automatic, so if you install pyNMS you automatically get them (via
> sitecustomize) into builtins and can use them in your code. I added
> this flatten() function there already.

I think it's fine in your own code to save time, but probably a bad
idea for libraries that you distribute.

Just my $0.02,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 00:53:33 2007
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:53:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] May plans?
In-Reply-To: <20070326135943.GA3889@panix.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
	<94aebebfc50c5f45ec8242fa0d872b84@well.com>
	<20070326135943.GA3889@panix.com>
Message-ID: <5538c19b0703261553p320ec41bp7ca3c680bd8a9a46@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/26/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:

> What's the plan for May?  Anna expressed some interest in PyGame, but I
> haven't seen anyone else clamoring for it -- and if I'm going to do it,
> I need plenty of advance notice to prepare.
> --


Yes, I would like a presentation about PyGame.

From keith at dartworks.biz  Tue Mar 27 03:08:29 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:08:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2007-03-26 at 11:04 PDT:
===
> I think it's fine in your own code to save time, but probably a bad
> idea for libraries that you distribute.
> 
===

But if your own code is also a library that you distribute? ;-)

Why would it be a bad idea? Perhaps some documentation would fix any
problems with that?



-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From aleax at google.com  Tue Mar 27 05:55:16 2007
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:55:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/26/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2007-03-26 at 11:04 PDT:
> ===
> > I think it's fine in your own code to save time, but probably a bad
> > idea for libraries that you distribute.
> >
> ===
>
> But if your own code is also a library that you distribute? ;-)
>
> Why would it be a bad idea? Perhaps some documentation would fix any
> problems with that?

A typical applicaiton program uses N > 1 "libraries that [others]
distribute".  Suppose that M of those N libraries polluted the
__builtin__ namespace: how long before mysterious name clashes started
to happen?  Should the poor application programmer double check the
set of names stuck into __builtin__ by each of the M against each of
the other M-1...?!

"Act only on a maxim that you can will to be a universal law."

The maxim "leave __builtin__ alone in libraries you distribute", you
can will to be a universal law without creating any problems.

The maxim "allow libraries you distribute to pollute __builtin__", if
willed into a universal law, rapidly guarantees chaos... "the tragedy
of the commons"!-)

Or, if you prefer Zen (of Python) to Kant:

"Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!"

Good fences make good neighbors; good namespaces make good libraries
-- keep the namespaces cleanly separate, in libraries you distribute,
don't pollute __builtin__.


Alex

From keith at dartworks.biz  Tue Mar 27 08:14:09 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:14:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070326231409.48b34aa6@psyche.corp.google.com>

Alex Martelli wrote the following on 2007-03-26 at 20:55 PDT:
===
> The maxim "allow libraries you distribute to pollute __builtin__", if
> willed into a universal law, rapidly guarantees chaos... "the tragedy
> of the commons"!-)
===

OK, I see your point.  But it can be managed... Better still would be to
have a single point of contact that would mediate "official" additions
to __builtins__. Something similar to how the IANA manages Internet
assigned numbers and other common data. Should we create a central
control point where a developer can request a built-in name and
function (and check for existing ones)?


-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 08:30:06 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:30:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070326231409.48b34aa6@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326231409.48b34aa6@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <a14a87410703262330y3e4e102aoffd0e68e9cdfcb06@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/26/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
>
> OK, I see your point.  But it can be managed... Better still would be to
> have a single point of contact that would mediate "official" additions
> to __builtins__. Something similar to how the IANA manages Internet
> assigned numbers and other common data. Should we create a central
> control point where a developer can request a built-in name and
> function (and check for existing ones)?

Well, for something REALLY useful, bring it up on the developers list,
and if it gets positive feedback, make a PEP (if Guido really takes a
shine to it, it may skip the PEP).  It generally has to be something
special, though (ie. really basically useful).

sum() got added, a few years back, based on a thread by A. Martelli
and quite a few others, and I'm sure there are some similar examples
with other new builtins.  Basically, there are channels, as it usually
(always?) involves the new builtin being implemented in C, and thus
supported by the Python language developers.

But, otherwise, I'm not sure what problem is solved by various
libraries adding things to _builtins_.  Since they can't be depended
on to be there, you still need to have the extra libraries.  And once
you've got those libraries, it is easy to import things into your
module's namespace with:

from blech import bleh

Frankly, I'd be rather ticked off if:

import arbitrary_module

were to change the _builtins_  (which is what I assume we are talking
about?).  But, if I've missed the point, enlighten me.  I do wish to
know.

At the very least, if you feel you have a bunch of cool functions, put
them in a separate module (or sub-package) so that others can:

from some_cool_functions_module import *

if they wish...

Chad

From keith at dartworks.biz  Tue Mar 27 11:07:16 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:07:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410703262330y3e4e102aoffd0e68e9cdfcb06@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326231409.48b34aa6@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703262330y3e4e102aoffd0e68e9cdfcb06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070327020716.285252aa@tinker.homenetwork>

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:30:06 -0700
"Chad Netzer" <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:

> Frankly, I'd be rather ticked off if:
> 
> import arbitrary_module
> 
> were to change the _builtins_  (which is what I assume we are talking
> about?).  But, if I've missed the point, enlighten me.  I do wish to
> know.

We are talking about __builtins__, but not altered by one module.
Suppose there were a large collection of modules, call it a
"framework", and it was stated that by using this framework you also
received, at no cost to you, a bunch of extra built-ins for you to use.
Generally, these new builtins would be used in your code along with
the framework modules. Would that be more acceptable? 


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From bob at redivi.com  Tue Mar 27 11:42:04 2007
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:42:04 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070327020716.285252aa@tinker.homenetwork>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326231409.48b34aa6@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703262330y3e4e102aoffd0e68e9cdfcb06@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070327020716.285252aa@tinker.homenetwork>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290703270242l43779d0fs241bbeef59fb0ef9@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/27/07, Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:30:06 -0700
> "Chad Netzer" <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Frankly, I'd be rather ticked off if:
> >
> > import arbitrary_module
> >
> > were to change the _builtins_  (which is what I assume we are talking
> > about?).  But, if I've missed the point, enlighten me.  I do wish to
> > know.
>
> We are talking about __builtins__, but not altered by one module.
> Suppose there were a large collection of modules, call it a
> "framework", and it was stated that by using this framework you also
> received, at no cost to you, a bunch of extra built-ins for you to use.
> Generally, these new builtins would be used in your code along with
> the framework modules. Would that be more acceptable?
>

Only if the usage instructions for that framework said to use "from
convenience_builtins import *"  if you would like the functions to be
global. And of course it should work if you explicitly reference the
functions from within the module.

In other words, it should be just like anything else. Adding globals
is already easy, there's no reason to make it hard to *not* add
globals.

-bob

From keith at dartworks.biz  Tue Mar 27 11:42:16 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:42:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] survey: How do you feel about populating __builtins__?
Message-ID: <20070327024216.6d962373@tinker.homenetwork>

Please, a quick survey, two questions:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=239233566296

For participating in this survey you will receive a free gift! The gift
will be comprised of open-source software. 

Thank you.


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From keith at dartworks.biz  Tue Mar 27 11:46:13 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:46:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290703270242l43779d0fs241bbeef59fb0ef9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326231409.48b34aa6@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703262330y3e4e102aoffd0e68e9cdfcb06@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070327020716.285252aa@tinker.homenetwork>
	<6a36e7290703270242l43779d0fs241bbeef59fb0ef9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070327024613.70dcecb8@tinker.homenetwork>

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:42:04 -0700
"Bob Ippolito" <bob at redivi.com> wrote:

> Only if the usage instructions for that framework said to use "from
> convenience_builtins import *"  if you would like the functions to be
> global. And of course it should work if you explicitly reference the
> functions from within the module.

Yes, ok. But would you feel the same way if you had just wrote that
line 100 times?

Also, I thought "... import *" was "frowned upon". But that's
fine with you? Otherwise, everyone would have to pick a list to import.

But if importing * is fine, that could very well be preferable.



-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From bob at redivi.com  Tue Mar 27 11:51:56 2007
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:51:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070327024613.70dcecb8@tinker.homenetwork>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326231409.48b34aa6@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703262330y3e4e102aoffd0e68e9cdfcb06@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070327020716.285252aa@tinker.homenetwork>
	<6a36e7290703270242l43779d0fs241bbeef59fb0ef9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070327024613.70dcecb8@tinker.homenetwork>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290703270251yf7cad36n769d1fddd3a7e4b5@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/27/07, Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:42:04 -0700
> "Bob Ippolito" <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
>
> > Only if the usage instructions for that framework said to use "from
> > convenience_builtins import *"  if you would like the functions to be
> > global. And of course it should work if you explicitly reference the
> > functions from within the module.
>
> Yes, ok. But would you feel the same way if you had just wrote that
> line 100 times?

Yes. EIBTI. I don't want magic crap happening to my built-in namespace
with no code whatsoever.

"import x" is certainly not meaningfully shorter than "from x import
*". If you had to write it 100 times, then it's your own fault for not
using a template. The proposal doesn't actually solve any real
problem.

> Also, I thought "... import *" was "frowned upon". But that's
> fine with you? Otherwise, everyone would have to pick a list to import.
>
> But if importing * is fine, that could very well be preferable.

It's not generally used because tracking where the heck those
functions come from is a pain. It wouldn't be in the syntax of the
language if it wasn't useful.

-bob

From keith at dartworks.biz  Tue Mar 27 11:58:48 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:58:48 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290703270251yf7cad36n769d1fddd3a7e4b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326231409.48b34aa6@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703262330y3e4e102aoffd0e68e9cdfcb06@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070327020716.285252aa@tinker.homenetwork>
	<6a36e7290703270242l43779d0fs241bbeef59fb0ef9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070327024613.70dcecb8@tinker.homenetwork>
	<6a36e7290703270251yf7cad36n769d1fddd3a7e4b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070327025848.36e69d77@tinker.homenetwork>

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:51:56 -0700
"Bob Ippolito" <bob at redivi.com> wrote:

> "import x" is certainly not meaningfully shorter than "from x import
> *". If you had to write it 100 times, then it's your own fault for not
> using a template. The proposal doesn't actually solve any real
> problem.

Just a convenience. 

But OK, the nays have it. I'll change my framework. ;-)



-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From jim at well.com  Tue Mar 27 16:00:17 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 06:00:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] May plans? PyGames, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20070326135943.GA3889@panix.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
	<94aebebfc50c5f45ec8242fa0d872b84@well.com>
	<20070326135943.GA3889@panix.com>
Message-ID: <b1883b2b1ffebcf72f923e75114646ed@well.com>


    let's see who's clamoring for it. I'd say June
or July, given clamor. Are either of those
meetings okay for you?

On Mar 26, 2007, at 5:59 AM, Aahz wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 21, 2007, jim stockford wrote:
>>
>>     i was wrong again. catherine jones, of patternand,
>> has joined the bayPIGgies mailing list. she claims
>> to be willing and able to present sometime soon (not
>> April).
>
> What's the plan for May?  Anna expressed some interest in PyGame, but I
> haven't seen anyone else clamoring for it -- and if I'm going to do it,
> I need plenty of advance notice to prepare.
> -- 
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         
> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "Typing is cheap.  Thinking is expensive."  --Roy Smith
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From jim at well.com  Tue Mar 27 16:25:06 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 06:25:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] april meeting
Message-ID: <a79b51b283b06806a4763cf7040c0706@well.com>


    April will be snippets and meet and greet.
I'm going out of town for a week, back April
6. I'll post a formal schedule/agenda then.

    Get your snippets ready.

    The numpy mailing list is very active, like
20 to 30 per day. scipy is a third of that.
    If you've got the scientific/math foundation,
maybe join their mailing lists and derive a
snippet or two.


Numpy-discussion mailing list
Numpy-discussion at scipy.org
http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

SciPy-user mailing list
SciPy-user at scipy.org
http://projects.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/scipy-user





From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Mar 27 16:28:53 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:28:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] May plans? PyGames, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <b1883b2b1ffebcf72f923e75114646ed@well.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
	<94aebebfc50c5f45ec8242fa0d872b84@well.com>
	<20070326135943.GA3889@panix.com>
	<b1883b2b1ffebcf72f923e75114646ed@well.com>
Message-ID: <20070327142853.GA17614@panix.com>

On Tue, Mar 27, 2007, jim stockford wrote:
> 
>    let's see who's clamoring for it. I'd say June or July, given
> clamor. Are either of those meetings okay for you?

Anna said that she can't make the June meeting, so if not May, then
July.  Anna, does July work?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

Need a book?  Use your library!

From guido at python.org  Tue Mar 27 17:24:38 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:24:38 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] survey: How do you feel about populating
	__builtins__?
In-Reply-To: <20070327024216.6d962373@tinker.homenetwork>
References: <20070327024216.6d962373@tinker.homenetwork>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20703270824p5910dcddq182dbc890d873b58@mail.gmail.com>

Um, do you realize that the correct name to use is __builtin__? That's
the name of the module, and if you feel the need to add builtins,
that's the module to update. __builtins__ is an undefined
implementation detail. (Unfortunately named, I'm the first to admit.)

On 3/27/07, Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Please, a quick survey, two questions:
>
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=239233566296
>
> For participating in this survey you will receive a free gift! The gift
> will be comprised of open-source software.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> --
>
> -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
>    public key: ID: 19017044
>    <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
>    =====================================================================
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 19:56:39 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:56:39 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070327024613.70dcecb8@tinker.homenetwork>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326231409.48b34aa6@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703262330y3e4e102aoffd0e68e9cdfcb06@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070327020716.285252aa@tinker.homenetwork>
	<6a36e7290703270242l43779d0fs241bbeef59fb0ef9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070327024613.70dcecb8@tinker.homenetwork>
Message-ID: <a14a87410703271056l101fce27ud951df0bbf991b6e@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/27/07, Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
>
> Also, I thought "... import *" was "frowned upon".

Well, it can't be anywhere nearly as frowned upon as altering the
builtin namespace. :)

Here is a little bit of my perspective on "from some_module import *".
 Basically, one has to be wary of it since as things are added to a
module over time, obviously there is more potential for hidden
namespace clashes.  Someone could add a function with the same name as
your own helper function in a different module, and depending on the
order of "from import *" statements, you would now be using the wrong
function (all without ever changing your code, just upgrading some
other module).

So, that is one obvious reason to prefer only explicitly importing the
things you need.  However, even if you take that risk in your own
module, and only intend to use the imported functions within that
module, you now have to take care not to re-export them.

If your module is bar.py, and you import everything from foo.py, ie.:

% cat bar.py
from foo import *

And now someone else using bar does:

from bar import *

Unless you took steps to cleanse the namespace, they will get
everything from both foo and bar.  That is a very compelling reason to
use the __all__ list in a module, to explicitly declare the exported
namespace:

http://docs.python.org/tut/node8.html#SECTION008410000000000000000

Finally, in Python it is easy to give things short names.  When I use
the Numeric module (now being superceded by numpy), I get tired of
typing "Numeric" all the time.  So, I rename it as "Num", or "N".

ie.:

import Numeric as Num

or

N = Numeric

if I need to use a specific function a lot, I just grab it:

from Numeric import pi

or

pi = Numeric.pi

So, if you use "from module import *" in your framework, be aware of
the consequences, and clean up after yourself with __all__.  If you
need to reduce typing, see if you can get by with a temporary short
name.

Hope that helps a bit.

Chad

From annaraven at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 23:04:18 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:04:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] May plans? PyGames, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <20070327142853.GA17614@panix.com>
References: <BAY131-F2DB437211A2D6EBBC3CF7A0770@phx.gbl>
	<70332fabc94252a2845500243f3bb0f7@well.com>
	<94aebebfc50c5f45ec8242fa0d872b84@well.com>
	<20070326135943.GA3889@panix.com>
	<b1883b2b1ffebcf72f923e75114646ed@well.com>
	<20070327142853.GA17614@panix.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610703271404i6bec9a1o9785cc65188468b1@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/27/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2007, jim stockford wrote:
> >
> >    let's see who's clamoring for it. I'd say June or July, given
> > clamor. Are either of those meetings okay for you?
>
> Anna said that she can't make the June meeting, so if not May, then
> July.  Anna, does July work?



Sure. Thanks.
Anna
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 03:30:07 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:30:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<c41f67b90703261104t19e458ccqa27e5ec09c161387@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070326180829.0c94c5b9@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<55dc209b0703262055y4ff24223re39e8def63457946@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90703271830l640b9044m2e5d83eabbff18a4@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/26/07, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:
> On 3/26/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> > Shannon -jj Behrens wrote the following on 2007-03-26 at 11:04 PDT:
> > ===
> > > I think it's fine in your own code to save time, but probably a bad
> > > idea for libraries that you distribute.
> > >
> > ===
> >
> > But if your own code is also a library that you distribute? ;-)
> >
> > Why would it be a bad idea? Perhaps some documentation would fix any
> > problems with that?
>
> A typical applicaiton program uses N > 1 "libraries that [others]
> distribute".  Suppose that M of those N libraries polluted the
> __builtin__ namespace: how long before mysterious name clashes started
> to happen?  Should the poor application programmer double check the
> set of names stuck into __builtin__ by each of the M against each of
> the other M-1...?!
>
> "Act only on a maxim that you can will to be a universal law."
>
> The maxim "leave __builtin__ alone in libraries you distribute", you
> can will to be a universal law without creating any problems.
>
> The maxim "allow libraries you distribute to pollute __builtin__", if
> willed into a universal law, rapidly guarantees chaos... "the tragedy
> of the commons"!-)
>
> Or, if you prefer Zen (of Python) to Kant:
>
> "Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!"
>
> Good fences make good neighbors; good namespaces make good libraries
> -- keep the namespaces cleanly separate, in libraries you distribute,
> don't pollute __builtin__.

And if you insist, then let the user himself shove it into the builtins ;)

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From rdm at cfcl.com  Wed Mar 28 11:14:23 2007
From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:14:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BASS Meeting (SF), Wed. March 28
Message-ID: <p0623093dc22fe1658afe@[192.168.1.205]>

The Beer and Scripting SIG rides again!  If you'd like to
eat good Chinese food, chat with other local scripters,
and possibly take a look at laptop-demoed scripting hacks,
this is the place to do it!

For your convenience, here are the critical details:

  Date:   Wednesday, March 28, 2007 (4th. Wed.)
  Time:   8:00 pm
  Place:  Wild Pepper
          3601 26th St. (near San Jose Ave.)
          San Francisco, California, USA
          415/695-767[89]

-r
-- 
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

From keith at dartworks.biz  Wed Mar 28 12:18:25 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:18:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] survey: How do you feel about populating
 __builtins__?
In-Reply-To: <20070327024216.6d962373@tinker.homenetwork>
References: <20070327024216.6d962373@tinker.homenetwork>
Message-ID: <20070328031825.5e242480@tinker.homenetwork>

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:42:16 -0700
Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:

> For participating in this survey you will receive a free gift! The
> gift will be comprised of open-source software. 

Thank you very much to all that participated in the survey.

about 80% of respondents think that populating __builtins__ is a Bad
Thing, and about half wouldn't even use an application framework that
did so. 

Thanks again. You can get your free software once I fix it... 

Have a nice day,
Keith

-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar 29 04:41:32 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:41:32 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <97a0e9f6f394cb20ac3a3abf04affba0@cruzio.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<97a0e9f6f394cb20ac3a3abf04affba0@cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <20070328194132.42dbab8b@psyche.corp.google.com>

Doug Landauer wrote the following on 2007-03-21 at 23:07 PDT:
===
> If we have come across the need/desire for a new general method that
> should work just fine with anything that "quacks like a sequence", and
> we would like to make it available to any sequence in any of our Python
> code, and I want to invoke it as foo.method for any foo that is
> a sequence, then where/how would I define such a method?
===

Ok, so now I also have a better idea of what the answer to this
question is. The consensus is: anywhere you want, as long as you
explicitly import it. 

I suppose the most acceptable pattern is something like this:

from mypackage import utils

utils.waddle(quacker)

What say you?



-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar 29 07:42:11 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:42:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <200703290527.l2T5RVbD002065@b.mail.sonic.net>
References: <20070328194132.42dbab8b@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<200703290527.l2T5RVbD002065@b.mail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20070328224211.197127bf@psyche.corp.google.com>

Max Slimmer wrote the following on 2007-03-28 at 22:27 PDT:
===
> What doug is asking for is any sequence to have some method say flatten such
> that
> Seq = [a,b,c]
> Flatseq = Seq.flatten()
> 
> Your answer below could import some function util.flatten
> And then Flatseq = util.flatten(Seq) but not quit what was asked for.

===

Perhaps. But what's implied is that what he's asking for isn't really
the right thing to ask. ;-) It should not be a method, but a function
that works on any object implementing the sequence/iterator interface
(duck typing).



-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 07:53:11 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:53:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070328194132.42dbab8b@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<97a0e9f6f394cb20ac3a3abf04affba0@cruzio.com>
	<20070328194132.42dbab8b@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <a14a87410703282253v4bfdefbn9ff1fd2bd6fbb53e@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/28/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
> Doug Landauer wrote the following on 2007-03-21 at 23:07 PDT:
> ===
> > If we have come across the need/desire for a new general method that
> > should work just fine with anything that "quacks like a sequence", and
> > we would like to make it available to any sequence in any of our Python
> > code, and I want to invoke it as foo.method for any foo that is
> > a sequence, then where/how would I define such a method?
> ===

I'm not sure in which thread Doug posed this question, but if I
understand it, you want to have a way of adding a method to all
sequence like objects?  I think the short answer is that you have to
make it a function, not a method, and call it like a function with the
sequence as argument.  The long answer I'll have to leave for later,
or someone else, but basically methods are defined in, or inherited
from, a class, and if you make a method that operates on sequences,
not all sequence-like objects will inherit from that class.

Note that numpy has a whole bunch of functions that operate on
array-like sequences, rather than providing them as methods on the
array objects, precisely because those functions generalize to many
other kinds of objects.  I'm no Ruby expert, but your example seem
ruby-ish, and perhaps it  provides a way to do what you are asking?
(anyone?)


> I suppose the most acceptable pattern is something like this:
>
> from mypackage import utils
>
> utils.waddle(quacker)
>
> What say you?

If you have a few functions you are gonna use a lot, I like to just
make the functions local:

from mypackage.utils import div,grad,curl

seq2 = div(seq1)
seq4 = div(seq3)
seq6 = curl(seq5)
etc...


And sometimes you have many helper functions in a module, and aren't
using each function as often, so you just import the module, and
access the functions with dot notation:

from mypackage import utils

b = utils.div(a)
c = utils.grad(b)
d = utils.curl(a)


But often it is a mixture of the two:

from mypackage import vector_calculus
from mypackage.vector_calculus import div  # or div = vector_calculus.div

div(a)
div(b)
c = vector_calculus.grad(div(b))


Basically, there are a number of options for dealing with your names
and namespaces.  In fact, I also often use shorter names (temporarily)
for longer variables or functions, when it makes the code "cleaner".


x = some_really_long_descriptive_variable_function_or_module_name
x + 3*x + x**2     # or foo(x("abc"), x("qvc"), x("bvd"))  etc...
x = None   # or del x, if you want to indicate that x was a temporary name


Chad

From max at theslimmers.net  Thu Mar 29 07:27:21 2007
From: max at theslimmers.net (Max Slimmer)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:27:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070328194132.42dbab8b@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <200703290527.l2T5RVbD002065@b.mail.sonic.net>

What doug is asking for is any sequence to have some method say flatten such
that
Seq = [a,b,c]
Flatseq = Seq.flatten()

Your answer below could import some function util.flatten
And then Flatseq = util.flatten(Seq) but not quit what was asked for.

max 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org 
> [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Keith Dart ?
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 7:42 PM
> To: Doug Landauer
> Cc: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
> 
> Doug Landauer wrote the following on 2007-03-21 at 23:07 PDT:
> ===
> > If we have come across the need/desire for a new general 
> method that 
> > should work just fine with anything that "quacks like a 
> sequence", and 
> > we would like to make it available to any sequence in any of our 
> > Python code, and I want to invoke it as foo.method for any 
> foo that is 
> > a sequence, then where/how would I define such a method?
> ===
> 
> Ok, so now I also have a better idea of what the answer to 
> this question is. The consensus is: anywhere you want, as 
> long as you explicitly import it. 
> 
> I suppose the most acceptable pattern is something like this:
> 
> from mypackage import utils
> 
> utils.waddle(quacker)
> 
> What say you?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
>    public key: ID: 19017044
>    <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
>    
> =====================================================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 


From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Mar 29 08:24:18 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 23:24:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410703282253v4bfdefbn9ff1fd2bd6fbb53e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070321171714.28464db2@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703211912q4fe027d8jc233ae2e7302b577@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070321202256.08f891e7@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<97a0e9f6f394cb20ac3a3abf04affba0@cruzio.com>
	<20070328194132.42dbab8b@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<a14a87410703282253v4bfdefbn9ff1fd2bd6fbb53e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070328232418.0cdae7c5@psyche.corp.google.com>

Chad Netzer wrote the following on 2007-03-28 at 22:53 PDT:
===
> x = some_really_long_descriptive_variable_function_or_module_name
> x + 3*x + x**2     # or foo(x("abc"), x("qvc"), x("bvd"))  etc...
> x = None   # or del x, if you want to indicate that x was a temporary name

===

I believe this is why the "as" keyword was added:

from mypackage import some_really_long_descriptive_name as x

But I believe that usage is not entirely accepted....



-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From zia at cruzio.com  Thu Mar 29 19:19:26 2007
From: zia at cruzio.com (Doug Landauer)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:19:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <20070328224211.197127bf@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <20070328194132.42dbab8b@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<200703290527.l2T5RVbD002065@b.mail.sonic.net>
	<20070328224211.197127bf@psyche.corp.google.com>
Message-ID: <e9e2fa56ce964d57e3e74c14865e96ce@cruzio.com>

On Mar 28, 2007, at 10:42 PM, Keith Dart ? wrote:

> Max Slimmer wrote the following on 2007-03-28 at 22:27 PDT:
> ===
>> What doug is asking for is any sequence to have some method say 
>> flatten such
>> that
>> Seq = [a,b,c]
>> Flatseq = Seq.flatten()

Actually, what the english word says to me is what Ruby's "flatten!" 
does,
i.e., alter the sequence object itself, instead of the above, which is
what Ruby's "flatten" (no exclamation mark) does.

> Perhaps. But what's implied is that what he's asking for isn't really
> the right thing to ask. ;-) It should not be a method, but a function 
> ...

It's a matter of taste.  To supply a file-like object, you supply an
object with a "read()" method and/or a few other methods, right?  I
just think that sequence is a strong enough concept to merit a class,
and that flattening is a common enough operation on sequences to
merit being a method.


> On 3/28/07, Keith Dart ? <keith at dartworks.biz> wrote:
>> Doug Landauer wrote the following on 2007-03-21 at 23:07 PDT:
>> ===
>> > If we have come across the need/desire for a new general method that
>> > should work just fine with anything that "quacks like a sequence", 
>> and
>> > we would like to make it available to any sequence in any of our 
>> Python
>> > code, and I want to invoke it as foo.method for any foo that is
>> > a sequence, then where/how would I define such a method?
>> ===
>
> I'm not sure in which thread Doug posed this question

A week ago, in this very thread.

> , but if I
> understand it, you want to have a way of adding a method to all
> sequence like objects?  I think the short answer is that you have to
> make it a function, not a method, and call it like a function with the
> sequence as argument.  The long answer I'll have to leave for later,
> or someone else, but basically methods are defined in, or inherited
> from, a class, and if you make a method that operates on sequences,
> not all sequence-like objects will inherit from that class.

Indeed, that's how I do this sort of thing in Python today.  All I'm
saying is that this is a workaround, based on historical accident,
rather than a feature.  And it impairs (very slightly) the readability
of code that has to use this workaround.  For Python 3000 or maybe
Python 40,000,   ".flatten" could well be redefined as a method that's
expected in any sequence-like object.  And it could be provided in
some library class that offers basic sequence operations, that
user-defined sequences would choose sometimes to inherit from, for
convenience.

To me, it's analogous to "list.sort()" vs "sorted( iterable ... )".
"flattened(...)" could be the function that Keith described, and
".flatten()" could be the method that I described, if there were
any class in which to define it.

> I'm no Ruby expert, but your example seem ruby-ish, and perhaps it
> provides a way to do what you are asking?

Yes, as I mentioned in the message that spawned this sub-thread:
"For what it's worth, Ruby's Array class has just such a 'flatten'
method."

Here's where I'm coming from:  I've used Python for over ten
years and love it.  But my day job for the past two years has been
writing a compiler in Ruby.  So I've gotten an in-depth look at the
little places where they differ.  This is one of the few spots where
Python's way of doing things feels just a teeny bit clunkier than
Ruby's.  IMHO.

  -- Doug L.


From keith at dartworks.biz  Fri Mar 30 01:50:46 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:50:46 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies snippets
In-Reply-To: <e9e2fa56ce964d57e3e74c14865e96ce@cruzio.com>
References: <20070328194132.42dbab8b@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<200703290527.l2T5RVbD002065@b.mail.sonic.net>
	<20070328224211.197127bf@psyche.corp.google.com>
	<e9e2fa56ce964d57e3e74c14865e96ce@cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <20070329165046.6f75fbb0@tinker.homenetwork>

On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:19:26 -0700
Doug Landauer <zia at cruzio.com> wrote:

> To me, it's analogous to "list.sort()" vs "sorted( iterable ... )".
> "flattened(...)" could be the function that Keith described, and
> ".flatten()" could be the method that I described, if there were
> any class in which to define it.

I see. Well, you could actually subclass "list" and add that method
there. 

-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================