From john_re at fastmail.us Sat Aug 1 10:34:51 2009 From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 01:34:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Aug 1 & 16- Global VOIP Free SW HW Culture meeting, BerkeleyTIP, For Forwarding Message-ID: <1249115691.21842.1327807143@webmail.messagingengine.com> Interested in joining the friendly global Free SW HW & Culture communities in a global Voice meeting? You?re invited. :) You can join from your home, or better: get a local meeting together. Tip: a college WiFi cafe could be a great local meeting place. Make sure you have a VOIP headset! For all details, see the website (I?m leaving out many sublinks to make this email smaller). http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip Start by joining #berkeleytip on IRC freenode.net. We?ll help you get your VOIP connection working. :) ===== MARK YOUR CALENDARS: 1st Sat & 3rd Sunday each month. August 1 & 16. 10A - 6P Pacific US time (+7H GMT, IIRC) = 1P-9P Eastern US time = 5P - 1A GMT ? Or, come to the local meeting on the UC Berkeley campus. NOTE: SPECIAL LOCATION AUG 1: SEE BTIP WEBSITE FOR LOCATION, & RSVP TO ME OR THE BTIP LISTS. AUG 1 MEETING WILL BE 12N - 3P AT THE BTIP VOIP SERVER LOCATION ON THE UCB CAMPUS. SEE THE WEBSITE FOR ROOM LOCATION. We?ll hack on the new BTIP Asterisk VOIP server, in its presence. PLEASE RSVP TO ME (John) OR THE LIST IF YOU WANT TO MEET AT OUR USUAL LOCATION, THE FREE SPEECH CAFE, 10A-12n, 3-6PM, (otherwise i might not be there). ===== MEETING TOPICS FOR AUGUST: 1) Whatever _you_ want to work on - Email the BTIPGlobal list & let us know what your interests are. 2) Our VOIP conference server, using Asterisk. 3) Planning for year 2. ===== JOIN FOR THE START OF YEAR 2 GLOBAL MEETINGs: We had a great first year. We had local attendees from around the San Francisco Bay Area & Northern California. High School, College, Grad Students, & working & retired people attended. >From the US, people joined the meeting (IRC or VOIP) from Hawaii to Virgina, Washington to Michigan to Florida. (+ California & other states.) Globally, Sweden, Germany, England, Ireland, Iran & India (& maybe others I don?t recall right now.) :) In May Richard Stallman joined the global meeting for Q & A about free SW & HW. == YEAR 2 FOCUS: COLLEGE LOCAL MEETINGS, & AMERICAS? ANNOUNCEMENTS. Two main things I?ll focus on this year: 1) Inviting groups to join at colleges & universities - BTIP is educational. My hope: if more students learn about free SW hw & culture, some of them will then go on to become _contributors_. :) 2) I?ll try to get monthly announcements out to the biggest LUGs in the 10 largest countries in the Americas. == What would _YOU_ like to accomplish this year? Email the BTIP mail list, say ?hi?, tell us about your interests, projects & desires. ===== FOR FORWARDING - You are invited to forward this announcement wherever you think it might be appreciated. From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 04:42:52 2009 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 19:42:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python Message-ID: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> We have openings for November and December.. Would anyone here be interested in hearing Joe Gregorio's presentation on "The (lack of) design patterns in Python" ? I think it would be good for the group to hear, since many didn't get to go to Oscon. If yes, are any of the Google employees in touch with him and would you be willing to ask him? Thanks From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Aug 3 19:07:35 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 10:07:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090803170735.GA29078@panix.com> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > Would anyone here be interested in hearing Joe Gregorio's presentation > on "The (lack of) design patterns in Python" ? +1 -- I was too busy with the Python booth! -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz From fred at bsdhost.net Mon Aug 3 19:45:02 2009 From: fred at bsdhost.net (Fred C) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 10:45:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: <20090803170735.GA29078@panix.com> References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> <20090803170735.GA29078@panix.com> Message-ID: <11057F87-C499-43EC-8EBC-C217F25233DF@bsdhost.net> On Aug 3, 2009, at 10:07 AM, Aahz wrote: > On Sun, Aug 02, 2009, Tony Cappellini wrote: >> >> Would anyone here be interested in hearing Joe Gregorio's >> presentation >> on "The (lack of) design patterns in Python" ? > > +1 -- I was too busy with the Python booth! +=1 -- couldn't go to Oscon -fred- From roderick at sanfransystems.com Tue Aug 4 00:44:59 2009 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 15:44:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] August BayPiggies Mtg Message-ID: <4CEC07531DFA42EBA6A885B265BC0A79@orion> Hello! The BayPiggies website lists the August meeting as on the 28th, but this is a Friday. Is this correct? Thanks - Rod Llewellyn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbaddog at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 00:55:19 2009 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 15:55:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] August BayPiggies Mtg In-Reply-To: <4CEC07531DFA42EBA6A885B265BC0A79@orion> References: <4CEC07531DFA42EBA6A885B265BC0A79@orion> Message-ID: <8540148a0908031555h789fce12n5fc0bc2ac3cac1b@mail.gmail.com> Nope. My bad. -Bill On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Roderick Llewellyn wrote: > Hello! The BayPiggies website lists the August meeting as on the 28th, but > this is a Friday. Is this correct? > Thanks - Rod Llewellyn > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From bdbaddog at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 00:59:23 2009 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 15:59:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] August BayPiggies Mtg In-Reply-To: <8540148a0908031555h789fce12n5fc0bc2ac3cac1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4CEC07531DFA42EBA6A885B265BC0A79@orion> <8540148a0908031555h789fce12n5fc0bc2ac3cac1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0908031559p796a4ff7s2cddd316bc8a4155@mail.gmail.com> Fixed. Details are incomplete, but the Date's correct now. -Bill On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:55 PM, William Deegan wrote: > Nope. My bad. > > -Bill > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Roderick > Llewellyn wrote: >> Hello! The BayPiggies website lists the August meeting as on the 28th, but >> this is a Friday. Is this correct? >> Thanks - Rod Llewellyn >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > From st1999 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 01:08:05 2009 From: st1999 at gmail.com (ST1999) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 16:08:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: His Pycon talk on the same subject can be seen at http://pycon.blip.tv/file/2081379/ The slides can be found at http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/51/ - Shailen Tuli On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > We have openings for November and December.. > > Would anyone here be interested in hearing Joe Gregorio's presentation > on "The (lack of) design patterns in Python" ? > I think it would be good for the group to hear, since many didn't get > to go to Oscon. > > If yes, are any of the Google employees in touch with him and would > you be willing to ask him? > > Thanks > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roderick at sanfransystems.com Tue Aug 4 05:27:52 2009 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:27:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Aug meeting Message-ID: <70419630D6C94030BA507F085E953D1E@orion> Thanks for that info. I should be there on Thu, Aug 27 then! See you all there. - Rod L. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 10:30:54 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 01:30:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > We have openings for November and December.. > > Would anyone here be interested in hearing Joe Gregorio's presentation > on "The (lack of) design patterns in Python" ? > I think it would be good for the group to hear, since many didn't get > to go to Oscon. > > If yes, are any of the Google employees in touch with him and would > you be willing to ask him? +1 However, I must admit, it'll probably drive me crazy. I read the gang of four cover-to-cover. I think design patterns are language specific. For instance, I think that monads are a design pattern that are really helpful in Haskell. I get really bent out of shape when people say, "My language is so powerful, it doesn't need design patterns!" *sigh* For instance, using class methods for providing multiple constructors is something that Alex Martelli taught me, and I think it qualifies as a design pattern. (His example was DateTime.from_gregorian_date(), etc.) -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From aleax at google.com Tue Aug 4 17:41:56 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 08:41:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0908040841wee9015bjd7daf4112771afd7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: >> We have openings for November and December.. >> >> Would anyone here be interested in hearing Joe Gregorio's presentation >> on "The (lack of) design patterns in Python" ? >> I think it would be good for the group to hear, since many didn't get >> to go to Oscon. >> >> If yes, are any of the Google employees in touch with him and would >> you be willing to ask him? > > +1 > > However, I must admit, it'll probably drive me crazy. ?I read the gang > of four cover-to-cover. ?I think design patterns are language > specific. ?For instance, I think that monads are a design pattern that > are really helpful in Haskell. ?I get really bent out of shape when > people say, "My language is so powerful, it doesn't need design > patterns!" *sigh* ?For instance, using class methods for providing > multiple constructors is something that Alex Martelli taught me, and I > think it qualifies as a design pattern. ?(His example was > DateTime.from_gregorian_date(), etc.) Indeed, as another deep lover of design patterns, I was thinking a debate format would be much more appropriate than a lecture format, for presenting such a controversial thesis -- maybe 5 minutes to each side for an initial exposition, then alternate question-answer-antianswer-rebuttal with a moderator (audience would submit questions and vote for them in advance e.g. via google moderator, a human moderator would exercise editorial judgment to pick, sequence and address an actual set of 6 questions or so, possibly adding some of their own if the dory doesn't offer enough, with about 10 carefully-timed minutes devoted in all to each question) and finally a little freeform Q&A from the live audience at the end. I volunteer to take the pro-patterns side if we do set things up that way. Alex From jim at well.com Tue Aug 4 18:22:42 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 09:22:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908040841wee9015bjd7daf4112771afd7@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908040841wee9015bjd7daf4112771afd7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1249402962.6860.366.camel@jim-laptop> the idea of debating design patterns in large is terrific. who'd like to argue what? step right up and volunteer to participate. it's possible we have speakers for all our meetings in 2009 (and possible not, depending...). figure tentatively that a design pattern debate would be for january 2010. On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 08:41 -0700, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > >> We have openings for November and December.. > >> > >> Would anyone here be interested in hearing Joe Gregorio's presentation > >> on "The (lack of) design patterns in Python" ? > >> I think it would be good for the group to hear, since many didn't get > >> to go to Oscon. > >> > >> If yes, are any of the Google employees in touch with him and would > >> you be willing to ask him? > > > > +1 > > > > However, I must admit, it'll probably drive me crazy. I read the gang > > of four cover-to-cover. I think design patterns are language > > specific. For instance, I think that monads are a design pattern that > > are really helpful in Haskell. I get really bent out of shape when > > people say, "My language is so powerful, it doesn't need design > > patterns!" *sigh* For instance, using class methods for providing > > multiple constructors is something that Alex Martelli taught me, and I > > think it qualifies as a design pattern. (His example was > > DateTime.from_gregorian_date(), etc.) > > Indeed, as another deep lover of design patterns, I was thinking a > debate format would be much more appropriate than a lecture format, > for presenting such a controversial thesis -- maybe 5 minutes to each > side for an initial exposition, then alternate > question-answer-antianswer-rebuttal with a moderator (audience would > submit questions and vote for them in advance e.g. via google > moderator, a human moderator would exercise editorial judgment to > pick, sequence and address an actual set of 6 questions or so, > possibly adding some of their own if the dory doesn't offer enough, > with about 10 carefully-timed minutes devoted in all to each question) > and finally a little freeform Q&A from the live audience at the end. > > I volunteer to take the pro-patterns side if we do set things up that way. > > > Alex > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From cappy2112 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 18:38:54 2009 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:38:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908040841wee9015bjd7daf4112771afd7@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908040841wee9015bjd7daf4112771afd7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0908040938h12c40cd6sf041ae6a3873e6b@mail.gmail.com> Alex- is Joe local to the Bay Area? > > Indeed, as another deep lover of design patterns, I was thinking a > debate format would be much more appropriate than a lecture format, > for presenting such a controversial thesis -- maybe 5 minutes to each > side for an initial exposition, then alternate > question-answer-antianswer-rebuttal with a moderator (audience would > submit questions and vote for them in advance e.g. via google > moderator, a human moderator would exercise editorial judgment to > pick, sequence and address an actual set of 6 questions or so, > possibly adding some of their own if the dory doesn't offer enough, > with about 10 carefully-timed minutes devoted in all to each question) > and finally a little freeform Q&A from the live audience at the end. > > I volunteer to take the pro-patterns side if we do set things up that way. > > > Alex > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janssen at parc.com Tue Aug 4 18:06:48 2009 From: janssen at parc.com (Bill Janssen) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:06:48 PDT Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <58803.1249402008@parc.com> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > We have openings for November and December.. > > > > Would anyone here be interested in hearing Joe Gregorio's presentation > > on "The (lack of) design patterns in Python" ? > > I think it would be good for the group to hear, since many didn't get > > to go to Oscon. > > > > If yes, are any of the Google employees in touch with him and would > > you be willing to ask him? > > +1 > > However, I must admit, it'll probably drive me crazy. I read the gang > of four cover-to-cover. I think design patterns are language > specific. Sounds like you and Joe are in complete agreement. His whole point is that the design patterns so necessary in Java are mostly unused in Python, because Python has lots of powerful built-in capabilities that Java lacks. If it's a language feature, you just use it; if it isn't, you need a design pattern to imitate it. Bill From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Tue Aug 4 18:52:13 2009 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 09:52:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: <58803.1249402008@parc.com> References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> <58803.1249402008@parc.com> Message-ID: I agree. I've pick up the Design Patterns book one time after it was sitting in the bookshelve for many years. I find most of them are really class based C++ design patterns and are irrelevant for Python. That say there must be some Python patterns that are useful. The decorate-sort-undecorate DSU pattern has come to mind. Wai Yip > Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Tony Cappellini >> wrote: >> > We have openings for November and December.. >> > >> > Would anyone here be interested in hearing Joe Gregorio's presentation >> > on "The (lack of) design patterns in Python" ? >> > I think it would be good for the group to hear, since many didn't get >> > to go to Oscon. >> > >> > If yes, are any of the Google employees in touch with him and would >> > you be willing to ask him? >> >> +1 >> >> However, I must admit, it'll probably drive me crazy. I read the gang >> of four cover-to-cover. I think design patterns are language >> specific. > > Sounds like you and Joe are in complete agreement. His whole point is > that the design patterns so necessary in Java are mostly unused in > Python, because Python has lots of powerful built-in capabilities that > Java lacks. If it's a language feature, you just use it; if it isn't, > you need a design pattern to imitate it. > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From aleax at google.com Tue Aug 4 19:37:40 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:37:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: <58803.1249402008@parc.com> References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> <58803.1249402008@parc.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0908041037p2709b6a3kb332c1b2b7d6d551@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Bill Janssen wrote: ... > Sounds like you and Joe are in complete agreement. ?His whole point is > that the design patterns so necessary in Java are mostly unused in > Python, because Python has lots of powerful built-in capabilities that > Java lacks. ?If it's a language feature, you just use it; if it isn't, > you need a design pattern to imitate it. "Design Patterns are language-specific" is smack up front in the gang of 4 book, smack up front in my classic presentations on Design Patterns in Python, etc, etc -- it's hardly a new message, IOW. The concept of "factory" is crucial -- the fact that the implementation differs by language is minor in comparison. The bad example of strategy pattern his presentation gives is bad simply because the "strategies" in question don't use `self` (and so are better represented in Python as free-standing functions -- just as they might be in C++, say) -- far from meaning, as he argues, that said strawman example shows Strategy DP is no use in Python, it just shows that it is quite possible to use excessive ceremony and mechanism where a lighter-weight approach would serve as well or better. (wikipedia's wrong about first class functions being sufficient to make Strategy "invisible" -- that only applies directly to strategies that KEEP NO STATE; the somewhat-goofy approach of explicitly passing [and possibly returning] a state object, needed in functional languages missing the code/data coupling of OO, is generally inappropriate where you CAN use that coupling -- as in Java, Python, and C++). "Meta-programming" (which he shows simply as monkeypatching an attribute into a class) is one tool, and often overused (Simionato in particular has written a lot on the subject). It has nothing to do with making design patterns disappear. What's his point on the Iterator DP? It's best implemented in modern Java by implementing the interface Iterator and may be accessed via `foreach` (or may be accessed directly at a lower level via `next` &c); it's best implemented in modern Python by implementing the abstract base class collections.Iterator and may be acessed via `for` (or may be accessed directly at a lower level via `next` &c). C++ iterators are somewhat different (while Java and Python are quite similar on this point) but it's still much the same design pattern in a slightly varying guise. Certainly not a sign of LACK OF design patterns in any of the three languages. Implementing the Observer DP by wrapping and monkeypatching as he does cries out for vengeance to the heavens -- just imagine you add three observers by this [expletive deleted] approach and then the second one wants to remove itself. Shudder. A good understanding of design patterns, starting with the Forces section of well-written-out DPs, would save otherwise-inexperienced designers from perpetrating such horrors. That's a lot of what DPs are all about: *best practices* that extract crucial aspects of the living experience of advanced designers, people who have "been there, done that" and have the scars to show for it -- and there is no lack of them in Python, as there isn't in any other comparable technology. And don't get me started on PyCSP -- Twisted easily twists it around its pinky. The left one. Of course, Twisted *centers* on an implementation of the Reactor DP -- "lack of DPs" my foot -- and that exactly where it gets most of its power and ease of integration with other event loops (e.g. from GUI toolkits), because different Reactor implementations can be plugged in as necessary. Try _that_ w/PyCSP;-). Alex From aleax at google.com Tue Aug 4 19:51:48 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:51:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> <58803.1249402008@parc.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0908041051k58973d77kbfdfe2a11ad72ecb@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Tung Wai Yip wrote: > I agree. I've pick up the Design Patterns book one time after it was sitting > in the bookshelve for many years. I find most of them are really class based > C++ design patterns and are irrelevant for Python. That say there must be > some Python patterns that are useful. The decorate-sort-undecorate DSU > pattern has come to mind. Take a look at my presentations on Patterns in Python, there are many around the web (videos you can find on YouTube, etc). In the past I've deemed DSU an idiom, not a pattern -- it's not deep, doesn't imply anything much about how you design things, it's very much about a good implementation, that's all (I believe I introduced the term DSU about 9-10 years ago -- before then I was calling it a Schwartzian transform, by analogy with Perl, but purists quibbled about that term so I tried DSU instead... I'm not quite sure that I coined the term, but researching comp.lang.python's archives I can't find mentions earlier than mine). But, many other families of patterns are useful and widely used -- factories, dependency injection (including dependency injection of factories, a crucially precious mix!), template method and its many more-flexible variants, ... Alex From walterv at gbbservices.com Tue Aug 4 20:08:36 2009 From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:08:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU next Wednesday 'Python 3: The Next Generation' Wesley Chun Message-ID: <4A787924.6020706@gbbservices.com> When: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 Topic: Python 3: The Next Generation Speaker: Wesley Chun Time: 6:30pm doors open 7:00pm meeting begins Where: Symantec VCAFE building 350 Ellis Street (near E. Middlefield Road) Mountain View, CA 94043 Map: Directions: VCAFE is accessible from the semicircular courtyard between Symantec buildings Cost: Free More Info: The long awaited sequel to Wesley's ACCU talk from June 2000, "Python for Beginners", is about the evolution of Python. Wesley will discuss Python 2 and Python 3: what the compatibility issues are, why Python is (barely) changing from 2 to 3, and what the main differences are. Finally, Wesley plans to conclude with an intro to Python 2.6 and other migration tools. For those who want to read ahead, Wesley recommends his article from March 2009 "Python 3: The Evolution of a Programming Language", which can be found online at http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1328795 Wesley J. Chun, MSCS, is the author of Prentice Hall's best-selling Core series book, "Core Python Programming", its video training course, "Python Fundamentals" (LiveLessons DVD), co-author of "Python Web Development with Django" , and has also written various technical articles for Linux Journal and cNet. He is currently a senior engineer at a Silicon Valley startup and also runs CyberWeb http://cyberwebconsulting.com, a consulting business specializing in Python software engineering and technical training. He has over 25 years of programming, teaching, and writing experience, including more than a decade of Python. While at Yahoo!, he helped create Yahoo! Mail and Yahoo! People Search using Python. He holds degrees in Computer Science, Mathematics, and Music from the University of California. Meetings are open to the public and are free of charge. ---- Upcoming ACCU talks ----- Wednesday, September 9, 2009 Ali Cehreli "An Introduction to the D Programming Language" --------- The ACCU meets monthly. Meetings are always open to the public and are free of charge. To suggest topics and speakers please email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 06:12:29 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 21:12:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] The (lack of) design patterns in Python In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908040841wee9015bjd7daf4112771afd7@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908021942u40fda10bv5343daac38cc1e3@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908040841wee9015bjd7daf4112771afd7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:42 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: >>> We have openings for November and December.. >>> >>> Would anyone here be interested in hearing Joe Gregorio's presentation >>> on "The (lack of) design patterns in Python" ? >>> I think it would be good for the group to hear, since many didn't get >>> to go to Oscon. >>> >>> If yes, are any of the Google employees in touch with him and would >>> you be willing to ask him? >> >> +1 >> >> However, I must admit, it'll probably drive me crazy. ?I read the gang >> of four cover-to-cover. ?I think design patterns are language >> specific. ?For instance, I think that monads are a design pattern that >> are really helpful in Haskell. ?I get really bent out of shape when >> people say, "My language is so powerful, it doesn't need design >> patterns!" *sigh* ?For instance, using class methods for providing >> multiple constructors is something that Alex Martelli taught me, and I >> think it qualifies as a design pattern. ?(His example was >> DateTime.from_gregorian_date(), etc.) > > Indeed, as another deep lover of design patterns, I was thinking a > debate format would be much more appropriate than a lecture format, > for presenting such a controversial thesis -- maybe 5 minutes to each > side for an initial exposition, then alternate > question-answer-antianswer-rebuttal with a moderator (audience would > submit questions and vote for them in advance e.g. via google > moderator, a human moderator would exercise editorial judgment to > pick, sequence and address an actual set of 6 questions or so, > possibly adding some of their own if the dory doesn't offer enough, > with about 10 carefully-timed minutes devoted in all to each question) > and finally a little freeform Q&A from the live audience at the end. > > I volunteer to take the pro-patterns side if we do set things up that way. +1!!! I sure am glad I agree with Alex on this one, because I so totally would not want to have to debate with him ;) -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From resmith at runbox.com Wed Aug 5 13:13:00 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 04:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 46, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The long awaited sequel to Wesley's ACCU talk from June 2000, "Python for Beginners", > is about the evolution of Python. Boy are they gonna be disappointed if they waited nine years for "Intermediate Python" ... From slander at unworkable.org Sat Aug 8 00:26:18 2009 From: slander at unworkable.org (Harry Tormey) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 15:26:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGameSF meetup Wednesday August 12th 6pm @ Main San Francisco Public Library Message-ID: <20090807222618.GA5511@unworkable.org> Hi All, The August PyGameSF meet up will be at the STONG conference room on the first floor of the main San Francisco public library beside civic center BART. The library closes at 8pm so we will reconvene to frjtz on hayes street for dinner/drinks afterwords. This month's presentations are: * Eric Bieschke and Casey Duncan: Xenotrader, a space trader MMO for the iPhone. The presentation will include such weighty topics as: Developing on Google App Engine, using jQuery and WebKit to create an interactive game, composing game sprites using nothing but CSS, HTML, masking tape and dental floss. * Andrew Turley, Harry Tormey: Who is it?, anatomy of a facebook guessing game. This presentation will cover what it takes to build a facebook game while maintaining a modicum of sanity using pylons and sqlalchemy. PyGameSF is an informal group meet up in San Francisco for Software engineers interested in python, OpenGL, audio, pygame, SDL, programming and generally anything to do with multimedia development. The format of our meetings typically involve several people giving presentations on projects they are developing followed by group discussion and feedback. If anyone else would like to give a micro presentation, show demos or just talk about what they are doing or generally give examples of any relevant software they are working on please feel free to head along To subscribe to the pygamesf mailing list simply email pygame-sf+subscribe at unworkable.org Harry Tormey Co Founder P2P Research http://p2presearch.com Founder PyGameSF http://pygamesf.org Software Engineer Digidesign http://digidesign.com From beau at open-source-staffing.com Sat Aug 8 02:53:01 2009 From: beau at open-source-staffing.com (Beau Gould (OSS)) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 20:53:01 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] Since job posts from recruiters aren't allowed.. Message-ID: <83E338C1C32042CB8E2AB7C1C86892FA@EMACHINE> I'll just let you know that I have 2 Python jobs (#1 75-100k | #2 150-170k) available in the Belmont, CA area. If anyone would like details, please contact me off-list. Thank you and have a nice day. Beau J. Gould Open Source Staffing www.open-source-staffing.com beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pythonzopejobs From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Aug 8 03:42:44 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 18:42:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Since job posts from recruiters aren't allowed.. In-Reply-To: <83E338C1C32042CB8E2AB7C1C86892FA@EMACHINE> References: <83E338C1C32042CB8E2AB7C1C86892FA@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <20090808014244.GA13797@panix.com> On Fri, Aug 07, 2009, Beau Gould (OSS) wrote: > > I'll just let you know that I have 2 Python jobs (#1 75-100k | #2 > 150-170k) available in the Belmont, CA area. If anyone would like > details, please contact me off-list. AFAIK we are still permitting recruiter posts due to the poor economy; we just ask that recruiters make sure to check the recent list posts to avoid repeating jobs. Recruiters are also obligated to follow the standard job posting guidelines (aside from the temporarily relaxed recruiter restriction): http://baypiggies.net/index_html/job-listings -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz From beau at open-source-staffing.com Sat Aug 8 08:44:55 2009 From: beau at open-source-staffing.com (Beau Gould (OSS)) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 02:44:55 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Sr. Tools Developer, Belmont, CA | 75-100k Message-ID: Sr. Tools Developer, Belmont, CA | 75-100k Employees who work for our client are passionate and possess the deeply held belief that a team working for a cause will reach and benefit millions of people. They are looking for those rare individuals who share their passion about building a great company while delighting customers, partners and fellow employees. They offer many perks and benefits beyond salary such as shares in the company, 401K, 12 Company Paid Holidays as well as 15 PTO days per year - and your birthday is a paid day off! Free drinks and cheap snacks are always available. They have the excitement of the dotcom era and the stability of an established, profitable company. They provide Medical, Dental, and Vision as well as Life Insurance, Short & Long Term Disability, and an Employee Assistance Program. Responsibilities: * Work with Engineering and Internet Operations teams to gather requirements, design, implement tools for managing systems * Maintain and support internal tools * Build and maintain monitoring tools * Gather and analyze systems data to provide insight into performance, utilization, capacity * Evaluate and recommend tools to improve systems automation and monitoring * Automate deployment and help manage consistency of software and systems Qualifications: * Strong experience with Perl or Python, Java a plus * Experience working with large heterogeneous unix server environments (Linux and Solaris) * Strong debugging skills * Knowledge of relevant protocols: HTTP, TCP/IP * Experience with open source tools like Nagios and Cacti * Understanding of enterprise storage and networking a plus * Experience with managing Java/Tomcat plus * Understanding of systems performance and analysis To be considered, please submit your resume along with your salary requirements to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com Thank you, Beau J. Gould Open Source Staffing www.open-source-staffing.com beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com From beau at open-source-staffing.com Sat Aug 8 08:44:41 2009 From: beau at open-source-staffing.com (Beau Gould (OSS)) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 02:44:41 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k Message-ID: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k Employees who work for our client are passionate and possess the deeply held belief that a team working for a cause will reach and benefit millions of people. They are looking for those rare individuals who share their passion about building a great company while delighting customers, partners and fellow employees. They offer many perks and benefits beyond salary such as shares in the company, 401K, 12 Company Paid Holidays as well as 15 PTO days per year - and your birthday is a paid day off! Free drinks and cheap snacks are always available. They have the excitement of the dotcom era and the stability of an established, profitable company. They provide Medical, Dental, and Vision as well as Life Insurance, Short & Long Term Disability, and an Employee Assistance Program. This position is part of the Storage Team, responsible for supporting a multi-petabyte service. You will investigate new technology (server, storage, software), contribute to the design and building of next generation infrastructure, deploy capacity to the site, perform critical upgrades, manage data flow and IO redistribution processes and are responsible for the 99.99% uptime of the service. In addition you are a competent Perl developer, building automation tools and utilities to manage the archive. You will help design and maintain custom MySQL databases and applications required to support the archive. Requirements: * Experience with distributed file systems, storage arrays, replication and virtualization technologies, volume and file system management products and backup solutions * System, storage and application/service design and implementation experience * Understanding of current industry trends including backup-to-disk, continuous backup, archiving, de-dup, virtualization and automated migrations * Demonstrated competency integrating open-source and commercial software products * Expert knowledge for Linux/Solaris based file-systems, particularly clustered, global and shared file systems * In depth knowledge of disk-based storage hardware including storage controllers, SAN and raid disk configurations * File system, network and server performance tuning * Experience developing and implementing automated autonomic and batch tools for managing large amounts of data * Perl and shell scripting, other languages (Java, Python, etc) welcome (10+ years) * Experienced troubleshooter, ability to work independently and within a team * Communication, documentation and process oriented a big plus * Experience building and supporting infrastructure for mission critical highly available services * Expert Unix systems administration (10+ years) * This position requires participation in an on-call pager rotation To be considered, please submit your resume along with your salary requirements to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com Thank you, Beau J. Gould Open Source Staffing www.open-source-staffing.com beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com From glen at glenjarvis.com Sat Aug 8 09:22:15 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 00:22:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> I know that we have relaxed our rules for some time because quite a few of us needed work. However, this has already become abusive. For example, this particular job posting only mentions "Perl and Shell Scripting, other languages (Java, Python), etc. welcome." Python is clearly not a high priority for this position. I make the motion to reinstate our previously effective policies with regard to recruiter restrictions posting to this list. Glen On Aug 7, 2009, at 11:44 PM, Beau Gould (OSS) wrote: > Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k > > Employees who work for our client are passionate and possess the > deeply > held belief that a team working for a cause will reach and benefit > millions of people. They are looking for those rare individuals who > share their passion about building a great company while delighting > customers, partners and fellow employees. > > They offer many perks and benefits beyond salary such as shares in the > company, 401K, 12 Company Paid Holidays as well as 15 PTO days per > year > - and your birthday is a paid day off! Free drinks and cheap snacks > are > always available. They have the excitement of the dotcom era and the > stability of an established, profitable company. They provide Medical, > Dental, and Vision as well as Life Insurance, Short & Long Term > Disability, and an Employee Assistance Program. > > This position is part of the Storage Team, responsible for > supporting a > multi-petabyte service. You will investigate new technology (server, > storage, software), contribute to the design and building of next > generation infrastructure, deploy capacity to the site, perform > critical > upgrades, manage data flow and IO redistribution processes and are > responsible for the 99.99% uptime of the service. In addition you > are a > competent Perl developer, building automation tools and utilities to > manage the archive. You will help design and maintain custom MySQL > databases and applications required to support the archive. > > Requirements: > > * Experience with distributed file systems, storage arrays, > replication > and virtualization technologies, volume and file system management > products and backup solutions > * System, storage and application/service design and implementation > experience > * Understanding of current industry trends including backup-to-disk, > continuous backup, archiving, de-dup, virtualization and automated > migrations > * Demonstrated competency integrating open-source and commercial > software products > * Expert knowledge for Linux/Solaris based file-systems, particularly > clustered, global and shared file systems > * In depth knowledge of disk-based storage hardware including storage > controllers, SAN and raid disk configurations > * File system, network and server performance tuning > * Experience developing and implementing automated autonomic and batch > tools for managing large amounts of data > * Perl and shell scripting, other languages (Java, Python, etc) > welcome > (10+ years) > * Experienced troubleshooter, ability to work independently and > within a > team > * Communication, documentation and process oriented a big plus > * Experience building and supporting infrastructure for mission > critical > highly available services > * Expert Unix systems administration (10+ years) > * This position requires participation in an on-call pager rotation > > To be considered, please submit your resume along with your salary > requirements to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com > > Thank you, > > Beau J. Gould > Open Source Staffing > www.open-source-staffing.com > beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 09:43:40 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 00:43:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: Beau, First of all, I agree--let's see postings that have more to do with Python, Beau ;) Secondly, who here still wants to see postings from recruiters? I know Glen, Aahz, and me all recently got jobs, but I'm assuming not everyone else has. Quick vote: +1 to continue with the lax rules, -1 to crack down. Best Regards, -jj On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > I know that we have relaxed our rules for some time because quite a few of > us needed work. However, this has already become abusive. For example, this > particular job posting only mentions "Perl and Shell Scripting, other > languages (Java, Python), etc. welcome." Python is clearly not a high > priority for this position. > > I make the motion to reinstate our previously effective policies with regard > to recruiter restrictions posting to this list. > > > Glen > > > On Aug 7, 2009, at 11:44 PM, Beau Gould (OSS) wrote: > >> Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k >> >> Employees who work for our client are passionate and possess the deeply >> held belief that a team working for a cause will reach and benefit >> millions of people. They are looking for those rare individuals who >> share their passion about building a great company while delighting >> customers, partners and fellow employees. >> >> They offer many perks and benefits beyond salary such as shares in the >> company, 401K, 12 Company Paid Holidays as well as 15 PTO days per year >> - and your birthday is a paid day off! Free drinks and cheap snacks are >> always available. They have the excitement of the dotcom era and the >> stability of an established, profitable company. They provide Medical, >> Dental, and Vision as well as Life Insurance, Short & Long Term >> Disability, and an Employee Assistance Program. >> >> This position is part of the Storage Team, responsible for supporting a >> multi-petabyte service. You will investigate new technology (server, >> storage, software), contribute to the design and building of next >> generation infrastructure, deploy capacity to the site, perform critical >> upgrades, manage data flow and IO redistribution processes and are >> responsible for the 99.99% uptime of the service. In addition you are a >> competent Perl developer, building automation tools and utilities to >> manage the archive. You will help design and maintain custom MySQL >> databases and applications required to support the archive. >> >> Requirements: >> >> * Experience with distributed file systems, storage arrays, replication >> and virtualization technologies, volume and file system management >> products and backup solutions >> * System, storage and application/service design and implementation >> experience >> * Understanding of current industry trends including backup-to-disk, >> continuous backup, archiving, de-dup, virtualization and automated >> migrations >> * Demonstrated competency integrating open-source and commercial >> software products >> * Expert knowledge for Linux/Solaris based file-systems, particularly >> clustered, global and shared file systems >> * In depth knowledge of disk-based storage hardware including storage >> controllers, SAN and raid disk configurations >> * File system, network and server performance tuning >> * Experience developing and implementing automated autonomic and batch >> tools for managing large amounts of data >> * Perl and shell scripting, other languages (Java, Python, etc) welcome >> (10+ years) >> * Experienced troubleshooter, ability to work independently and within a >> team >> * Communication, documentation and process oriented a big plus >> * Experience building and supporting infrastructure for mission critical >> highly available services >> * Expert Unix systems administration (10+ years) >> * This position requires participation in an on-call pager rotation >> >> To be considered, please submit your resume along with your salary >> requirements to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com >> >> Thank you, >> >> Beau J. Gould >> Open Source Staffing >> www.open-source-staffing.com >> beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From glen at glenjarvis.com Sat Aug 8 10:14:04 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 01:14:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <6E4ECEF9-CFC5-4EB4-A7CA-6611676A8234@glenjarvis.com> > Secondly, who here still wants to see postings from recruiters? I > know Glen, Aahz, and me all recently got jobs, but I'm assuming not > everyone else has. Quick vote: +1 to continue with the lax rules, -1 > to crack down. This is a good point, JJ. If these lax rules are truly helpful to our community, I will withdraw my motion. It's easier for someone to be more relaxed about this when you have a steady income -- that's not something I've always had as we know. So, I empathize. I only want to see our community best served. Cheers, Glen From jeff at drinktomi.com Sat Aug 8 11:40:55 2009 From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff Younker) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 02:40:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <7163D496-46B8-4664-86E4-4439009821DE@drinktomi.com> On Aug 8, 2009, at 12:43 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Secondly, who here still wants to see postings from recruiters? I > know Glen, Aahz, and me all recently got jobs, but I'm assuming not > everyone else has. Quick vote: +1 to continue with the lax rules, -1 > to crack down. I'm +1, but these seemed a little off. -jeff From beau at open-source-staffing.com Sat Aug 8 13:37:24 2009 From: beau at open-source-staffing.com (Beau Gould (OSS)) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 07:37:24 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <944A4AEC46554D1781BCEEAF343B53BF@EMACHINE> Hey guys and gals, I realize the positions I posted weren't screaming Python, but I do want to let you know that: 1) I wanted to get the local word out before I made the globe aware. 2) I only post jobs to Baypiggies when I have a local positions to post. I don't know about the rest of the recruiting population. 3) I received interest from around 10 people so far from this list. By the way, has anyone noticed that www.python.org is down? I've been trying to post a different (PA) Python job there for 3 days to no avail. Have a nice weekend. Thank you, Beau J. Gould Open Source Staffing www.open-source-staffing.com beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com -----Original Message----- From: Glen Jarvis [mailto:glen at glenjarvis.com] Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 3:22 AM To: Baypiggies Cc: Beau Gould (OSS) Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k I know that we have relaxed our rules for some time because quite a few of us needed work. However, this has already become abusive. For example, this particular job posting only mentions "Perl and Shell Scripting, other languages (Java, Python), etc. welcome." Python is clearly not a high priority for this position. I make the motion to reinstate our previously effective policies with regard to recruiter restrictions posting to this list. Glen On Aug 7, 2009, at 11:44 PM, Beau Gould (OSS) wrote: > Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k > > Employees who work for our client are passionate and possess the > deeply > held belief that a team working for a cause will reach and benefit > millions of people. They are looking for those rare individuals who > share their passion about building a great company while delighting > customers, partners and fellow employees. > > They offer many perks and benefits beyond salary such as shares in the > company, 401K, 12 Company Paid Holidays as well as 15 PTO days per > year > - and your birthday is a paid day off! Free drinks and cheap snacks > are > always available. They have the excitement of the dotcom era and the > stability of an established, profitable company. They provide Medical, > Dental, and Vision as well as Life Insurance, Short & Long Term > Disability, and an Employee Assistance Program. > > This position is part of the Storage Team, responsible for > supporting a > multi-petabyte service. You will investigate new technology (server, > storage, software), contribute to the design and building of next > generation infrastructure, deploy capacity to the site, perform > critical > upgrades, manage data flow and IO redistribution processes and are > responsible for the 99.99% uptime of the service. In addition you > are a > competent Perl developer, building automation tools and utilities to > manage the archive. You will help design and maintain custom MySQL > databases and applications required to support the archive. > > Requirements: > > * Experience with distributed file systems, storage arrays, > replication > and virtualization technologies, volume and file system management > products and backup solutions > * System, storage and application/service design and implementation > experience > * Understanding of current industry trends including backup-to-disk, > continuous backup, archiving, de-dup, virtualization and automated > migrations > * Demonstrated competency integrating open-source and commercial > software products > * Expert knowledge for Linux/Solaris based file-systems, particularly > clustered, global and shared file systems > * In depth knowledge of disk-based storage hardware including storage > controllers, SAN and raid disk configurations > * File system, network and server performance tuning > * Experience developing and implementing automated autonomic and batch > tools for managing large amounts of data > * Perl and shell scripting, other languages (Java, Python, etc) > welcome > (10+ years) > * Experienced troubleshooter, ability to work independently and > within a > team > * Communication, documentation and process oriented a big plus > * Experience building and supporting infrastructure for mission > critical > highly available services > * Expert Unix systems administration (10+ years) > * This position requires participation in an on-call pager rotation > > To be considered, please submit your resume along with your salary > requirements to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com > > Thank you, > > Beau J. Gould > Open Source Staffing > www.open-source-staffing.com > beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From jon at inklesspen.com Sat Aug 8 14:21:02 2009 From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 05:21:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <3816CB11-C990-4BE8-850F-16BC2D837A6E@inklesspen.com> I'm +1 for lax rules, but I'm disappointed Beau chose to hide the identity of the companies involved. I know Beau has a vested interest in making sure that we only go to the client through him, but I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that knowing the identity of the company is important when I decide whether or not to apply for a given job. Everyone says their employees are passionate and that they are looking for rare individuals. That sort of vague statement wouldn't work on a resume; it doesn't work in a job advertisement either. On Aug 8, 2009, at 12:43 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Beau, > > First of all, I agree--let's see postings that have more to do with > Python, Beau ;) > > Secondly, who here still wants to see postings from recruiters? I > know Glen, Aahz, and me all recently got jobs, but I'm assuming not > everyone else has. Quick vote: +1 to continue with the lax rules, -1 > to crack down. > > Best Regards, > -jj > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Glen Jarvis > wrote: >> I know that we have relaxed our rules for some time because quite a >> few of >> us needed work. However, this has already become abusive. For >> example, this >> particular job posting only mentions "Perl and Shell Scripting, other >> languages (Java, Python), etc. welcome." Python is clearly not a high >> priority for this position. >> >> I make the motion to reinstate our previously effective policies >> with regard >> to recruiter restrictions posting to this list. >> >> >> Glen >> >> >> On Aug 7, 2009, at 11:44 PM, Beau Gould (OSS) wrote: >> >>> Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k >>> >>> Employees who work for our client are passionate and possess the >>> deeply >>> held belief that a team working for a cause will reach and benefit >>> millions of people. They are looking for those rare individuals who >>> share their passion about building a great company while delighting >>> customers, partners and fellow employees. >>> >>> They offer many perks and benefits beyond salary such as shares in >>> the >>> company, 401K, 12 Company Paid Holidays as well as 15 PTO days per >>> year >>> - and your birthday is a paid day off! Free drinks and cheap >>> snacks are >>> always available. They have the excitement of the dotcom era and the >>> stability of an established, profitable company. They provide >>> Medical, >>> Dental, and Vision as well as Life Insurance, Short & Long Term >>> Disability, and an Employee Assistance Program. >>> >>> This position is part of the Storage Team, responsible for >>> supporting a >>> multi-petabyte service. You will investigate new technology (server, >>> storage, software), contribute to the design and building of next >>> generation infrastructure, deploy capacity to the site, perform >>> critical >>> upgrades, manage data flow and IO redistribution processes and are >>> responsible for the 99.99% uptime of the service. In addition you >>> are a >>> competent Perl developer, building automation tools and utilities to >>> manage the archive. You will help design and maintain custom MySQL >>> databases and applications required to support the archive. >>> >>> Requirements: >>> >>> * Experience with distributed file systems, storage arrays, >>> replication >>> and virtualization technologies, volume and file system management >>> products and backup solutions >>> * System, storage and application/service design and implementation >>> experience >>> * Understanding of current industry trends including backup-to-disk, >>> continuous backup, archiving, de-dup, virtualization and automated >>> migrations >>> * Demonstrated competency integrating open-source and commercial >>> software products >>> * Expert knowledge for Linux/Solaris based file-systems, >>> particularly >>> clustered, global and shared file systems >>> * In depth knowledge of disk-based storage hardware including >>> storage >>> controllers, SAN and raid disk configurations >>> * File system, network and server performance tuning >>> * Experience developing and implementing automated autonomic and >>> batch >>> tools for managing large amounts of data >>> * Perl and shell scripting, other languages (Java, Python, etc) >>> welcome >>> (10+ years) >>> * Experienced troubleshooter, ability to work independently and >>> within a >>> team >>> * Communication, documentation and process oriented a big plus >>> * Experience building and supporting infrastructure for mission >>> critical >>> highly available services >>> * Expert Unix systems administration (10+ years) >>> * This position requires participation in an on-call pager rotation >>> >>> To be considered, please submit your resume along with your salary >>> requirements to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Beau J. Gould >>> Open Source Staffing >>> www.open-source-staffing.com >>> beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Baypiggies mailing list >>> Baypiggies at python.org >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > > -- > In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things > with great love. -- Mother Teresa > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Aug 8 15:19:43 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 06:19:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: <944A4AEC46554D1781BCEEAF343B53BF@EMACHINE> References: <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> <944A4AEC46554D1781BCEEAF343B53BF@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <20090808131943.GA9724@panix.com> On Sat, Aug 08, 2009, Beau Gould (OSS) wrote: > > By the way, has anyone noticed that www.python.org is down? I've been > trying to post a different (PA) Python job there for 3 days to no avail. Yes, there's a hardware problem. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz From slander at unworkable.org Sat Aug 8 16:43:16 2009 From: slander at unworkable.org (Harry Tormey) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 07:43:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: <3816CB11-C990-4BE8-850F-16BC2D837A6E@inklesspen.com> References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> <3816CB11-C990-4BE8-850F-16BC2D837A6E@inklesspen.com> Message-ID: <20090808144316.GA16096@unworkable.org> Based on a quick google/bing of the requirements I think this is the company http://www.shutterfly.com/ On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 05:21:02AM -0700, Jon Rosebaugh wrote: > I'm +1 for lax rules, but I'm disappointed Beau chose to hide the > identity of the companies involved. I know Beau has a vested interest in > making sure that we only go to the client through him, but I'm sure I'm > not alone when I say that knowing the identity of the company is > important when I decide whether or not to apply for a given job. > Everyone says their employees are passionate and that they are looking > for rare individuals. That sort of vague statement wouldn't work on a > resume; it doesn't work in a job advertisement either. > > On Aug 8, 2009, at 12:43 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > >> Beau, >> >> First of all, I agree--let's see postings that have more to do with >> Python, Beau ;) >> >> Secondly, who here still wants to see postings from recruiters? I >> know Glen, Aahz, and me all recently got jobs, but I'm assuming not >> everyone else has. Quick vote: +1 to continue with the lax rules, -1 >> to crack down. >> >> Best Regards, >> -jj >> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Glen Jarvis >> wrote: >>> I know that we have relaxed our rules for some time because quite a >>> few of >>> us needed work. However, this has already become abusive. For >>> example, this >>> particular job posting only mentions "Perl and Shell Scripting, other >>> languages (Java, Python), etc. welcome." Python is clearly not a high >>> priority for this position. >>> >>> I make the motion to reinstate our previously effective policies >>> with regard >>> to recruiter restrictions posting to this list. >>> >>> >>> Glen >>> >>> >>> On Aug 7, 2009, at 11:44 PM, Beau Gould (OSS) wrote: >>> >>>> Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k >>>> >>>> Employees who work for our client are passionate and possess the >>>> deeply >>>> held belief that a team working for a cause will reach and benefit >>>> millions of people. They are looking for those rare individuals who >>>> share their passion about building a great company while delighting >>>> customers, partners and fellow employees. >>>> >>>> They offer many perks and benefits beyond salary such as shares in >>>> the >>>> company, 401K, 12 Company Paid Holidays as well as 15 PTO days per >>>> year >>>> - and your birthday is a paid day off! Free drinks and cheap >>>> snacks are >>>> always available. They have the excitement of the dotcom era and the >>>> stability of an established, profitable company. They provide >>>> Medical, >>>> Dental, and Vision as well as Life Insurance, Short & Long Term >>>> Disability, and an Employee Assistance Program. >>>> >>>> This position is part of the Storage Team, responsible for >>>> supporting a >>>> multi-petabyte service. You will investigate new technology (server, >>>> storage, software), contribute to the design and building of next >>>> generation infrastructure, deploy capacity to the site, perform >>>> critical >>>> upgrades, manage data flow and IO redistribution processes and are >>>> responsible for the 99.99% uptime of the service. In addition you >>>> are a >>>> competent Perl developer, building automation tools and utilities to >>>> manage the archive. You will help design and maintain custom MySQL >>>> databases and applications required to support the archive. >>>> >>>> Requirements: >>>> >>>> * Experience with distributed file systems, storage arrays, >>>> replication >>>> and virtualization technologies, volume and file system management >>>> products and backup solutions >>>> * System, storage and application/service design and implementation >>>> experience >>>> * Understanding of current industry trends including backup-to-disk, >>>> continuous backup, archiving, de-dup, virtualization and automated >>>> migrations >>>> * Demonstrated competency integrating open-source and commercial >>>> software products >>>> * Expert knowledge for Linux/Solaris based file-systems, >>>> particularly >>>> clustered, global and shared file systems >>>> * In depth knowledge of disk-based storage hardware including >>>> storage >>>> controllers, SAN and raid disk configurations >>>> * File system, network and server performance tuning >>>> * Experience developing and implementing automated autonomic and >>>> batch >>>> tools for managing large amounts of data >>>> * Perl and shell scripting, other languages (Java, Python, etc) >>>> welcome >>>> (10+ years) >>>> * Experienced troubleshooter, ability to work independently and >>>> within a >>>> team >>>> * Communication, documentation and process oriented a big plus >>>> * Experience building and supporting infrastructure for mission >>>> critical >>>> highly available services >>>> * Expert Unix systems administration (10+ years) >>>> * This position requires participation in an on-call pager rotation >>>> >>>> To be considered, please submit your resume along with your salary >>>> requirements to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Beau J. Gould >>>> Open Source Staffing >>>> www.open-source-staffing.com >>>> beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Baypiggies mailing list >>>> Baypiggies at python.org >>>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Baypiggies mailing list >>> Baypiggies at python.org >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things >> with great love. -- Mother Teresa >> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- Harry Tormey Co Founder P2P Research http://p2presearch.com Founder PyGameSF http://pygamesf.org Software Engineer Digidesign http://digidesign.com From andrew at atoulou.se Sat Aug 8 17:05:44 2009 From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andy Toulouse) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 08:05:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: +1. While I didn't find it abusive, I would have preferred the job postings to have been sent in a single e-mail. It /was/ clearly labeled [JOB], so it would be pretty easy to filter out. Also, I agree that a smokescreen between recruiter and company is a bit of a turn-off. On Aug 8, 2009, at 12:43 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Beau, > > First of all, I agree--let's see postings that have more to do with > Python, Beau ;) > > Secondly, who here still wants to see postings from recruiters? I > know Glen, Aahz, and me all recently got jobs, but I'm assuming not > everyone else has. Quick vote: +1 to continue with the lax rules, -1 > to crack down. > > Best Regards, > -jj > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Glen Jarvis > wrote: >> I know that we have relaxed our rules for some time because quite a >> few of >> us needed work. However, this has already become abusive. For >> example, this >> particular job posting only mentions "Perl and Shell Scripting, other >> languages (Java, Python), etc. welcome." Python is clearly not a high >> priority for this position. >> >> I make the motion to reinstate our previously effective policies >> with regard >> to recruiter restrictions posting to this list. >> >> >> Glen >> >> >> On Aug 7, 2009, at 11:44 PM, Beau Gould (OSS) wrote: >> >>> Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k >>> >>> Employees who work for our client are passionate and possess the >>> deeply >>> held belief that a team working for a cause will reach and benefit >>> millions of people. They are looking for those rare individuals who >>> share their passion about building a great company while delighting >>> customers, partners and fellow employees. >>> >>> They offer many perks and benefits beyond salary such as shares in >>> the >>> company, 401K, 12 Company Paid Holidays as well as 15 PTO days per >>> year >>> - and your birthday is a paid day off! Free drinks and cheap >>> snacks are >>> always available. They have the excitement of the dotcom era and the >>> stability of an established, profitable company. They provide >>> Medical, >>> Dental, and Vision as well as Life Insurance, Short & Long Term >>> Disability, and an Employee Assistance Program. >>> >>> This position is part of the Storage Team, responsible for >>> supporting a >>> multi-petabyte service. You will investigate new technology (server, >>> storage, software), contribute to the design and building of next >>> generation infrastructure, deploy capacity to the site, perform >>> critical >>> upgrades, manage data flow and IO redistribution processes and are >>> responsible for the 99.99% uptime of the service. In addition you >>> are a >>> competent Perl developer, building automation tools and utilities to >>> manage the archive. You will help design and maintain custom MySQL >>> databases and applications required to support the archive. >>> >>> Requirements: >>> >>> * Experience with distributed file systems, storage arrays, >>> replication >>> and virtualization technologies, volume and file system management >>> products and backup solutions >>> * System, storage and application/service design and implementation >>> experience >>> * Understanding of current industry trends including backup-to-disk, >>> continuous backup, archiving, de-dup, virtualization and automated >>> migrations >>> * Demonstrated competency integrating open-source and commercial >>> software products >>> * Expert knowledge for Linux/Solaris based file-systems, >>> particularly >>> clustered, global and shared file systems >>> * In depth knowledge of disk-based storage hardware including >>> storage >>> controllers, SAN and raid disk configurations >>> * File system, network and server performance tuning >>> * Experience developing and implementing automated autonomic and >>> batch >>> tools for managing large amounts of data >>> * Perl and shell scripting, other languages (Java, Python, etc) >>> welcome >>> (10+ years) >>> * Experienced troubleshooter, ability to work independently and >>> within a >>> team >>> * Communication, documentation and process oriented a big plus >>> * Experience building and supporting infrastructure for mission >>> critical >>> highly available services >>> * Expert Unix systems administration (10+ years) >>> * This position requires participation in an on-call pager rotation >>> >>> To be considered, please submit your resume along with your salary >>> requirements to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Beau J. Gould >>> Open Source Staffing >>> www.open-source-staffing.com >>> beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Baypiggies mailing list >>> Baypiggies at python.org >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > > -- > In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things > with great love. -- Mother Teresa > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From glen at glenjarvis.com Sat Aug 8 18:39:05 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 09:39:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <589FEC7C-C8A3-45C7-8776-C33420236347@glenjarvis.com> These lax rules seem to still be very helpful to our community. I withdraw my earlier motion and will vote for keeping lax rules if asked. So, I'll let this one go for now. Also, I know what it feels like to be completely stressed out because savings are depleted and the job is gone. I want to do what I can to help our community stay working in Python if we can. Warmest Regards and the best of luck to those who are looking!!!! Glen Jarvis From chad.harrington at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 20:30:20 2009 From: chad.harrington at gmail.com (Chad Harrington) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 11:30:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 46, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f680c10908081130s2ddf4521jfc39355803f2b0e7@mail.gmail.com> JJ, Why don't we just have a baypiggies-jobs list? Job seekers can subscribe, uninterested parties can enjoy the normal python discussions on the baypiggies list. It is suboptimal to mix content on this list. Is it terribly hard to set up a baypiggies-jobs list? Thanks for your excellent service, Chad Harrington chad.harrington at gmail.com On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:00 AM, wrote: > Send Baypiggies mailing list submissions to > baypiggies at python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > baypiggies-request at python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > baypiggies-owner at python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Baypiggies digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k > (Shannon -jj Behrens) > 2. Re: [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k (Glen Jarvis) > 3. Re: [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k > (Jeff Younker) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 00:43:40 -0700 > From: Shannon -jj Behrens > To: Glen Jarvis > Cc: "Beau Gould \(OSS\)" , Baypiggies > > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | > 150-170k > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Beau, > > First of all, I agree--let's see postings that have more to do with > Python, Beau ;) > > Secondly, who here still wants to see postings from recruiters? I > know Glen, Aahz, and me all recently got jobs, but I'm assuming not > everyone else has. Quick vote: +1 to continue with the lax rules, -1 > to crack down. > > Best Regards, > -jj > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > I know that we have relaxed our rules for some time because quite a few > of > > us needed work. However, this has already become abusive. For example, > this > > particular job posting only mentions "Perl and Shell Scripting, other > > languages (Java, Python), etc. welcome." Python is clearly not a high > > priority for this position. > > > > I make the motion to reinstate our previously effective policies with > regard > > to recruiter restrictions posting to this list. > > > > > > Glen > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2009, at 11:44 PM, Beau Gould (OSS) wrote: > > > >> Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k > >> > >> Employees who work for our client are passionate and possess the deeply > >> held belief that a team working for a cause will reach and benefit > >> millions of people. They are looking for those rare individuals who > >> share their passion about building a great company while delighting > >> customers, partners and fellow employees. > >> > >> They offer many perks and benefits beyond salary such as shares in the > >> company, 401K, 12 Company Paid Holidays as well as 15 PTO days per year > >> - and your birthday is a paid day off! Free drinks and cheap snacks are > >> always available. They have the excitement of the dotcom era and the > >> stability of an established, profitable company. They provide Medical, > >> Dental, and Vision as well as Life Insurance, Short & Long Term > >> Disability, and an Employee Assistance Program. > >> > >> This position is part of the Storage Team, responsible for supporting a > >> multi-petabyte service. You will investigate new technology (server, > >> storage, software), contribute to the design and building of next > >> generation infrastructure, deploy capacity to the site, perform critical > >> upgrades, manage data flow and IO redistribution processes and are > >> responsible for the 99.99% uptime of the service. In addition you are a > >> competent Perl developer, building automation tools and utilities to > >> manage the archive. You will help design and maintain custom MySQL > >> databases and applications required to support the archive. > >> > >> Requirements: > >> > >> * Experience with distributed file systems, storage arrays, replication > >> and virtualization technologies, volume and file system management > >> products and backup solutions > >> * System, storage and application/service design and implementation > >> experience > >> * Understanding of current industry trends including backup-to-disk, > >> continuous backup, archiving, de-dup, virtualization and automated > >> migrations > >> * Demonstrated competency integrating open-source and commercial > >> software products > >> * Expert knowledge for Linux/Solaris based file-systems, particularly > >> clustered, global and shared file systems > >> * In depth knowledge of disk-based storage hardware including storage > >> controllers, SAN and raid disk configurations > >> * File system, network and server performance tuning > >> * Experience developing and implementing automated autonomic and batch > >> tools for managing large amounts of data > >> * Perl and shell scripting, other languages (Java, Python, etc) welcome > >> (10+ years) > >> * Experienced troubleshooter, ability to work independently and within a > >> team > >> * Communication, documentation and process oriented a big plus > >> * Experience building and supporting infrastructure for mission critical > >> highly available services > >> * Expert Unix systems administration (10+ years) > >> * This position requires participation in an on-call pager rotation > >> > >> To be considered, please submit your resume along with your salary > >> requirements to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com > >> > >> Thank you, > >> > >> Beau J. Gould > >> Open Source Staffing > >> www.open-source-staffing.com > >> beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > -- > In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things > with great love. -- Mother Teresa > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 01:14:04 -0700 > From: Glen Jarvis > To: Baypiggies > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | > 150-170k > Message-ID: <6E4ECEF9-CFC5-4EB4-A7CA-6611676A8234 at glenjarvis.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > > Secondly, who here still wants to see postings from recruiters? I > > know Glen, Aahz, and me all recently got jobs, but I'm assuming not > > everyone else has. Quick vote: +1 to continue with the lax rules, -1 > > to crack down. > > This is a good point, JJ. If these lax rules are truly helpful to our > community, I will withdraw my motion. It's easier for someone to be > more relaxed about this when you have a steady income -- that's not > something I've always had as we know. So, I empathize. I only want to > see our community best served. > > > Cheers, > > > Glen > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 02:40:55 -0700 > From: Jeff Younker > To: Shannon -jj Behrens > Cc: "Beau Gould \(OSS\)" , Baypiggies > > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | > 150-170k > Message-ID: <7163D496-46B8-4664-86E4-4439009821DE at drinktomi.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Aug 8, 2009, at 12:43 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > Secondly, who here still wants to see postings from recruiters? I > > know Glen, Aahz, and me all recently got jobs, but I'm assuming not > > everyone else has. Quick vote: +1 to continue with the lax rules, -1 > > to crack down. > > I'm +1, but these seemed a little off. > > -jeff > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > End of Baypiggies Digest, Vol 46, Issue 8 > ***************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sat Aug 8 21:37:46 2009 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 12:37:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] job posting policy In-Reply-To: <589FEC7C-C8A3-45C7-8776-C33420236347@glenjarvis.com> References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> <589FEC7C-C8A3-45C7-8776-C33420236347@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: Regardless whether or not the time has come for a separate 'baypiggies-jobs' list (personally I think it is), let's at least make sure to require [JOB] is in the subject line. Beau's postings were good and clear and should be allowed. Yes, it would be nice if there was more description of the company - see below. The volume of allowable job postings depends on how Pythonic we say a job needs to be, and sometimes the job req is unclear of intentionally vague, and sometimes recruiters get given a req like that, which can cause confusion. Some companies are notorious for putting meaningless boilerplate like: "Familiarity with a scripting language (PERL, Python, Tcl) is preferred" so that 100% of their ads, from techpubs all the way to architect, turn up in searches on 'Python'. Two telltale things are when such boilerplate appears towards the end rather than beginning, and is "desired" or "preferred" rather than "required" or necessary. Also as to recruiters vs direct, as the economy gets worse, more and more companies use recruiters as the first-line in sourcing and filtering the thousands of resumes they get for every position. Basically nobody does direct cold application any more, in reality. So I suggest we become more relaxed about known-reputable Pythonic recruiters, and for the rest we make our rules clear, and educate them gently if they post in error. Remember that many of our members are unemployed or underemployed. As to requiring recruiters to describe the client a bit without revealing their identity, it's useful to require something like "pre-IPO/post-IPO/second-round startup with n employees", should we require that? Hope this helps, Stephen _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_express:082009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sat Aug 8 21:41:20 2009 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 12:41:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] job posting policy In-Reply-To: References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> <589FEC7C-C8A3-45C7-8776-C33420236347@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: To be clear, my vote was +1, with these changes: - must put '[JOB]' in subject line - must clearly state how Pythonic a job is/isn't, avoid boilerplate - should describe client company's profile e.g. "pre-IPO/post-IPO/second-round startup with n employees" From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com To: baypiggies at python.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 12:37:46 -0700 CC: beau at open-source-staffing.com Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [JOB] job posting policy Regardless whether or not the time has come for a separate 'baypiggies-jobs' list (personally I think it is), let's at least make sure to require [JOB] is in the subject line. Beau's postings were good and clear and should be allowed. Yes, it would be nice if there was more description of the company - see below. The volume of allowable job postings depends on how Pythonic we say a job needs to be, and sometimes the job req is unclear of intentionally vague, and sometimes recruiters get given a req like that, which can cause confusion. Some companies are notorious for putting meaningless boilerplate like: "Familiarity with a scripting language (PERL, Python, Tcl) is preferred" so that 100% of their ads, from techpubs all the way to architect, turn up in searches on 'Python'. Two telltale things are when such boilerplate appears towards the end rather than beginning, and is "desired" or "preferred" rather than "required" or necessary. Also as to recruiters vs direct, as the economy gets worse, more and more companies use recruiters as the first-line in sourcing and filtering the thousands of resumes they get for every position. Basically nobody does direct cold application any more, in reality. So I suggest we become more relaxed about known-reputable Pythonic recruiters, and for the rest we make our rules clear, and educate them gently if they post in error. Remember that many of our members are unemployed or underemployed. As to requiring recruiters to describe the client a bit without revealing their identity, it's useful to require something like "pre-IPO/post-IPO/second-round startup with n employees", should we require that? Hope this helps, Stephen Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. Try it now. _________________________________________________________________ Get free photo software from Windows Live http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_PH_software:082009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Aug 8 21:59:49 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 12:59:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] job posting policy In-Reply-To: References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> <589FEC7C-C8A3-45C7-8776-C33420236347@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <20090808195949.GB2859@panix.com> On Sat, Aug 08, 2009, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > Also as to recruiters vs direct, as the economy gets worse, more > and more companies use recruiters as the first-line in sourcing and > filtering the thousands of resumes they get for every position. > Basically nobody does direct cold application any more, in reality. Based on my recent job-hunting experience over the past six months, you are completely incorrect. Most of the job ads on Craigslist were direct, for example, and that's how I found my current job (not to mention my previous job five years ago). The Python job board also mostly has direct listings: http://www.python.org/community/jobs/ Nevertheless, many companies do use recruiters, though I'll recuse myself from voting on whether BayPIGgies should allow recruiters. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sat Aug 8 22:43:34 2009 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 13:43:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] job posting policy In-Reply-To: <20090808195949.GB2859@panix.com> References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> <589FEC7C-C8A3-45C7-8776-C33420236347@glenjarvis.com> <20090808195949.GB2859@panix.com> Message-ID: [This is getting us offtopic, but anyway...] My experience differs greatly from yours, and I think the reasons are the difference between contracting vs permanent, and small companies vs large companies. Small companies eps. looking for contract positions do have the principal posting directly to craigslist, yes. Large companies tend not to, or at very least they use recruiters. New media companies do, and engineering companies tend not to. Stephen > Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 12:59:49 -0700 > From: aahz at pythoncraft.com > To: baypiggies at python.org > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [JOB] job posting policy > > On Sat, Aug 08, 2009, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > > > Also as to recruiters vs direct, as the economy gets worse, more > > and more companies use recruiters as the first-line in sourcing and > > filtering the thousands of resumes they get for every position. > > Basically nobody does direct cold application any more, in reality. > > Based on my recent job-hunting experience over the past six months, you > are completely incorrect. Most of the job ads on Craigslist were direct, > for example, and that's how I found my current job (not to mention my > previous job five years ago). The Python job board also mostly has > direct listings: > http://www.python.org/community/jobs/ > > Nevertheless, many companies do use recruiters, though I'll recuse myself > from voting on whether BayPIGgies should allow recruiters. > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, > it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that > characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters > are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies _________________________________________________________________ Get your vacation photos on your phone! http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?&OCID=0809TL-HM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Aug 9 01:27:30 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 16:27:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] job posting policy In-Reply-To: References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> <589FEC7C-C8A3-45C7-8776-C33420236347@glenjarvis.com> <20090808195949.GB2859@panix.com> Message-ID: <20090808232730.GA17761@panix.com> On Sat, Aug 08, 2009, Stephen McInerney wrote: > From: aahz at pythoncraft.com >> On Sat, Aug 08, 2009, Stephen McInerney wrote: >>> >>> Also as to recruiters vs direct, as the economy gets worse, more >>> and more companies use recruiters as the first-line in sourcing and >>> filtering the thousands of resumes they get for every position. >>> Basically nobody does direct cold application any more, in reality. >> >> Based on my recent job-hunting experience over the past six months, you >> are completely incorrect. Most of the job ads on Craigslist were direct, >> for example, and that's how I found my current job (not to mention my >> previous job five years ago). The Python job board also mostly has >> direct listings: >> http://www.python.org/community/jobs/ > > [This is getting us offtopic, but anyway...] You are making assertions unsupported by the facts; nobody forced you to say, "nobody does direct cold application". > My experience differs greatly from yours, and I think the reasons are > the difference between contracting vs permanent, and small companies > vs large companies. > > Small companies eps. looking for contract positions do have the > principal posting directly to craigslist, yes. > > Large companies tend not to, or at very least they use recruiters. > > New media companies do, and engineering companies tend not to. When I see companies like Google and Lucas and Sony direct recruiting for Python jobs on Craigslist, it's very clear that at least some significant large companies are not entirely happy with the recruiter model. Perhaps what you meant is that large companies rarely have the hiring manager do the first pass on incoming resumes. But that has been true for more than a couple of decades; while there are now more recruiting specialists handling that instead of generic HR people, that doesn't significantly change the large-company hiring model. It also is nothing like what you said, particularly in the context of whether recruiting companies should be allowed to post to BayPIGgies; large-company recruiters are often completely in-house and have always been permitted to post jobs to BayPIGgies. Reminder: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet? -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Aug 9 01:29:47 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 16:29:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Separate jobs list? In-Reply-To: <5f680c10908081130s2ddf4521jfc39355803f2b0e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f680c10908081130s2ddf4521jfc39355803f2b0e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090808232947.GB17761@panix.com> On Sat, Aug 08, 2009, Chad Harrington wrote: > > Why don't we just have a baypiggies-jobs list? Job seekers can > subscribe, uninterested parties can enjoy the normal python > discussions on the baypiggies list. It is suboptimal to mix content > on this list. Is it terribly hard to set up a baypiggies-jobs list? If you look at the archives, I bet you find that discussion about jobs consumes about as much list traffic as the actual jobs posts. There simply isn't enough job posting traffic to justify a separate list; if there ever is, I will support creating a separate list. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz From jjinux at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 05:49:57 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 20:49:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Separate jobs list? In-Reply-To: <20090808232947.GB17761@panix.com> References: <5f680c10908081130s2ddf4521jfc39355803f2b0e7@mail.gmail.com> <20090808232947.GB17761@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Sat, Aug 08, 2009, Chad Harrington wrote: >> >> Why don't we just have a baypiggies-jobs list? ?Job seekers can >> subscribe, uninterested parties can enjoy the normal python >> discussions on the baypiggies list. ?It is suboptimal to mix content >> on this list. ?Is it terribly hard to set up a baypiggies-jobs list? > > If you look at the archives, I bet you find that discussion about jobs > consumes about as much list traffic as the actual jobs posts. ?There > simply isn't enough job posting traffic to justify a separate list; if > there ever is, I will support creating a separate list. I've noticed that we fuss about job postings a lot more on this list than on other mailing lists. I'm on a few programmer-related mailing lists that have no rules against recruiters at all, and there are a bunch of job postings. I propose we have these rules: * Job postings should start with [JOB] so that people can filter them out. * For the time being, recruiters are allowed. * The job must still *actually use* Python, and it must be in the Bay Area. * Any other rules I'm forgetting still apply. -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From hyperneato at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 22:23:09 2009 From: hyperneato at gmail.com (Isaac) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 13:23:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Separate jobs list? In-Reply-To: References: <5f680c10908081130s2ddf4521jfc39355803f2b0e7@mail.gmail.com> <20090808232947.GB17761@panix.com> Message-ID: <7260654a0908091323wf67c910g647f19d9114df678@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I have an idea. Remove jobs from the list altogether. Then use the Baypiggies website to allow/filter job offerings; this way the job postings are off the mailing list ( which is nice ), the jobs can be clearly, conveniently filtered/organized, and Baypiggies who are looking for work can subscribe to the website page changes ( RSS or similar ). -Isaac On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Aahz wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 08, 2009, Chad Harrington wrote: > >> > >> Why don't we just have a baypiggies-jobs list? Job seekers can > >> subscribe, uninterested parties can enjoy the normal python > >> discussions on the baypiggies list. It is suboptimal to mix content > >> on this list. Is it terribly hard to set up a baypiggies-jobs list? > > > > If you look at the archives, I bet you find that discussion about jobs > > consumes about as much list traffic as the actual jobs posts. There > > simply isn't enough job posting traffic to justify a separate list; if > > there ever is, I will support creating a separate list. > > I've noticed that we fuss about job postings a lot more on this list > than on other mailing lists. I'm on a few programmer-related mailing > lists that have no rules against recruiters at all, and there are a > bunch of job postings. > > I propose we have these rules: > > * Job postings should start with [JOB] so that people can filter them out. > * For the time being, recruiters are allowed. > * The job must still *actually use* Python, and it must be in the Bay > Area. > * Any other rules I'm forgetting still apply. > > -jj > > -- > In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things > with great love. -- Mother Teresa > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Aug 9 23:03:03 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 14:03:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Separate jobs list? In-Reply-To: <7260654a0908091323wf67c910g647f19d9114df678@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f680c10908081130s2ddf4521jfc39355803f2b0e7@mail.gmail.com> <20090808232947.GB17761@panix.com> <7260654a0908091323wf67c910g647f19d9114df678@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090809210303.GA5829@panix.com> On Sun, Aug 09, 2009, Isaac wrote: > > I have an idea. Remove jobs from the list altogether. Then use the > Baypiggies website to allow/filter job offerings; this way the job > postings are off the mailing list ( which is nice ), the jobs can > be clearly, conveniently filtered/organized, and Baypiggies who are > looking for work can subscribe to the website page changes ( RSS or > similar ). -1 -- I consider jobs to be part of the BayPIGgies community, I really don't understand why people get so worked up about a few posts per month. What is the problem? I bet the vast majority of list subscribers get more spam than job posts on BayPIGgies! -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz From bdbaddog at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 23:15:21 2009 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 14:15:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Separate jobs list? In-Reply-To: <20090809210303.GA5829@panix.com> References: <5f680c10908081130s2ddf4521jfc39355803f2b0e7@mail.gmail.com> <20090808232947.GB17761@panix.com> <7260654a0908091323wf67c910g647f19d9114df678@mail.gmail.com> <20090809210303.GA5829@panix.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0908091415m2c8b9dadw824042390d19410c@mail.gmail.com> Aahz, On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Sun, Aug 09, 2009, Isaac wrote: >> >> I have an idea. Remove jobs from the list altogether. Then use the >> Baypiggies website to allow/filter job offerings; this way the job >> postings are off the mailing list ( which is nice ), the jobs can >> be clearly, conveniently filtered/organized, and Baypiggies who are >> looking for work can subscribe to the website page changes ( RSS or >> similar ). > > -1 -- I consider jobs to be part of the BayPIGgies community, I really > don't understand why people get so worked up about a few posts per month. > What is the problem? ?I bet the vast majority of list subscribers get > more spam than job posts on BayPIGgies! -1 I agree with you. As long as we have guidelines for the postings and they aren't abused I don't see any harm in jobs being posted to the list. -Bill From bdbaddog at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 23:34:04 2009 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 14:34:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job page on baypiggies.net Message-ID: <8540148a0908091434w774e7813rb5c073e55963c146@mail.gmail.com> Greetings, Just a reminder that we have a page on the website for posting jobs. I've just purged any jobs which were over 30days old, and notified all the posters of such. Thanks, Bill From jim at well.com Sun Aug 9 23:50:40 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 14:50:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Separate jobs list? In-Reply-To: <20090809210303.GA5829@panix.com> References: <5f680c10908081130s2ddf4521jfc39355803f2b0e7@mail.gmail.com> <20090808232947.GB17761@panix.com> <7260654a0908091323wf67c910g647f19d9114df678@mail.gmail.com> <20090809210303.GA5829@panix.com> Message-ID: <1249854640.6693.211.camel@jim-laptop> On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 14:03 -0700, Aahz wrote: > On Sun, Aug 09, 2009, Isaac wrote: > > > > I have an idea. Remove jobs from the list altogether. Then use the > > Baypiggies website to allow/filter job offerings; this way the job > > postings are off the mailing list ( which is nice ), the jobs can > > be clearly, conveniently filtered/organized, and Baypiggies who are > > looking for work can subscribe to the website page changes ( RSS or > > similar ). > > -1 -- I consider jobs to be part of the BayPIGgies community, I really > don't understand why people get so worked up about a few posts per month. > What is the problem? I bet the vast majority of list subscribers get > more spam than job posts on BayPIGgies! well said, i agree. From python at dylanreinhardt.com Mon Aug 10 00:37:59 2009 From: python at dylanreinhardt.com (Dylan Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 15:37:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Separate jobs list? In-Reply-To: <1249854640.6693.211.camel@jim-laptop> References: <5f680c10908081130s2ddf4521jfc39355803f2b0e7@mail.gmail.com> <20090808232947.GB17761@panix.com> <7260654a0908091323wf67c910g647f19d9114df678@mail.gmail.com> <20090809210303.GA5829@panix.com> <1249854640.6693.211.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <4c645a720908091537lb8bb5c8r9aa7902e7624cbee@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 2:50 PM, jim wrote: > On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 14:03 -0700, Aahz wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 09, 2009, Isaac wrote: > Perhaps there could be a list for discussing whether or not to have a job list? Or what about a rule that all discussions about the disastrous consequences receiving of a tiny number of extra posts contain [IRONY] in the subject line? Seriously. It's like a Monty Python sketch in here. Or maybe that's what makes it on-topic. :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From st1999 at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 02:26:26 2009 From: st1999 at gmail.com (ST1999) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 17:26:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [IRONY] Separate jobs list? In-Reply-To: <4c645a720908091537lb8bb5c8r9aa7902e7624cbee@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f680c10908081130s2ddf4521jfc39355803f2b0e7@mail.gmail.com> <20090808232947.GB17761@panix.com> <7260654a0908091323wf67c910g647f19d9114df678@mail.gmail.com> <20090809210303.GA5829@panix.com> <1249854640.6693.211.camel@jim-laptop> <4c645a720908091537lb8bb5c8r9aa7902e7624cbee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Remember, we at Baypiggies are an "autonomous collective" and decisions about such weighty matters must be made properly. More details at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0 - Shailen On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Dylan Reinhardt wrote: > On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 2:50 PM, jim wrote: > >> On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 14:03 -0700, Aahz wrote: >> > On Sun, Aug 09, 2009, Isaac wrote: >> > > > > Perhaps there could be a list for discussing whether or not to have a job > list? > > Or what about a rule that all discussions about the disastrous consequences > receiving of a tiny number of extra posts contain [IRONY] in the subject > line? > > Seriously. It's like a Monty Python sketch in here. > > Or maybe that's what makes it on-topic. :-) > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p at ulmcnett.com Mon Aug 10 04:04:32 2009 From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 19:04:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Storage Architect, Belmont, CA | 150-170k In-Reply-To: References: <5205037758594D72A0F2D8A0033BCD42@EMACHINE> <3E6EC45F-6CA9-4CB0-9EE0-38DCBD04C0AE@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <4A7F8030.4070406@ulmcnett.com> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > First of all, I agree--let's see postings that have more to do with > Python, Beau ;) > > Secondly, who here still wants to see postings from recruiters? I > know Glen, Aahz, and me all recently got jobs, but I'm assuming not > everyone else has. Quick vote: +1 to continue with the lax rules, -1 > to crack down. -1, continue with lax rules, unless and until it becomes a serious and persistent problem. I'm not looking for work, but I still read every single job posting, as I like to keep a finger in the water to see current trends, and also just in case the dream job comes around that I want to jump on. If I weren't interested in job postings, I'd just ignore the messages. I like the [JOB] header convention, to make for easy filtering. Paul From walterv at gbbservices.com Mon Aug 10 19:19:31 2009 From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 10:19:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU Wednesday 'Python 3: The Next Generation' Wesley Chun Message-ID: <4A8056A3.1050700@gbbservices.com> When: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 Topic: Python 3: The Next Generation Speaker: Wesley Chun Time: 6:30pm doors open 7:00pm meeting begins Where: Symantec VCAFE building 350 Ellis Street (near E. Middlefield Road) Mountain View, CA 94043 Map: Directions: VCAFE is accessible from the semicircular courtyard between Symantec buildings Cost: Free More Info: The long awaited sequel to Wesley's ACCU talk from June 2000, "Python for Beginners", is about the evolution of Python. Wesley will discuss Python 2 and Python 3: what the compatibility issues are, why Python is (barely) changing from 2 to 3, and what the main differences are. Finally, Wesley plans to conclude with an intro to Python 2.6 and other migration tools. For those who want to read ahead, Wesley recommends his article from March 2009 "Python 3: The Evolution of a Programming Language", which can be found online at http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1328795 Wesley J. Chun, MSCS, is the author of Prentice Hall's best-selling Core series book, "Core Python Programming", its video training course, "Python Fundamentals" (LiveLessons DVD), co-author of "Python Web Development with Django" , and has also written various technical articles for Linux Journal and cNet. He is currently a senior engineer at a Silicon Valley startup and also runs CyberWeb http://cyberwebconsulting.com, a consulting business specializing in Python software engineering and technical training. He has over 25 years of programming, teaching, and writing experience, including more than a decade of Python. While at Yahoo!, he helped create Yahoo! Mail and Yahoo! People Search using Python. He holds degrees in Computer Science, Mathematics, and Music from the University of California. Meetings are open to the public and are free of charge. ---- Upcoming ACCU talks ----- Wednesday, September 9, 2009 Ali Cehreli "An Introduction to the D Programming Language" --------- The ACCU meets monthly. Meetings are always open to the public and are free of charge. To suggest topics and speakers please email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com From keith at dartworks.biz Tue Aug 11 10:41:27 2009 From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 01:41:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] setuptools fork Message-ID: <20090811014127.6cae156b@dartworks.biz> Just FYI, I just discovered that the setuptools has been forked to a package named "Distribute". All I have to say is: Yaaaaaaaa! Finally, I don't have to constantly hand-patch 0.6c9 to work with subversion 1.6. -- Keith Dart -- -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Keith Dart public key: ID: 19017044 ===================================================================== From ziade.tarek at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:46:29 2009 From: ziade.tarek at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tarek_Ziad=E9?=) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:46:29 +0200 Subject: [Baypiggies] setuptools fork In-Reply-To: <20090811014127.6cae156b@dartworks.biz> References: <20090811014127.6cae156b@dartworks.biz> Message-ID: <94bdd2610908110346oa63799fxe8d444d3f0c7fe38@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Keith Dart wrote: > Just FYI, I just discovered that the setuptools has been forked to a > package named "Distribute". All I have to say is: > Yaaaaaaaa! > > Finally, I don't have to constantly hand-patch 0.6c9 to work with > subversion 1.6. > > > -- Keith Dart > Hi Keith, FYI, http://bitbucket.org/tarek/distribute/wiki/bug_listing will give you the list of the bug we did fix, and the one we are goind to fix. - a 0.6.1 release will contain more bug fixes - we started to work on a 0.7 release for : - py3k support - splitting the code in several distributions (so for instance pkg_resources is released on its own) The project lives here http://bitbucket.org/tarek/distribute and we welcome patches and contributors, Cheers Tarek > -- > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ? Keith Dart > ? public key: ID: 19017044 > ? > ? ===================================================================== > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Tarek Ziad? | http://ziade.org From keith at dartworks.biz Tue Aug 11 13:19:05 2009 From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 04:19:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] setuptools fork In-Reply-To: <94bdd2610908110346oa63799fxe8d444d3f0c7fe38@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090811014127.6cae156b@dartworks.biz> <94bdd2610908110346oa63799fxe8d444d3f0c7fe38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090811041905.6f23a954@dartworks.biz> === On Tue, 08/11, Tarek Ziad? wrote: === > Hi Keith, > > FYI, http://bitbucket.org/tarek/distribute/wiki/bug_listing will give > you the list of the bug we did fix, > and the one we are goind to fix. That's awesome. You're my hero. > The project lives here http://bitbucket.org/tarek/distribute and we > welcome patches and contributors, What do you think about using the subversion Python API to get SCM data, rather than file scanning? -- Keith Dart -- -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Keith Dart public key: ID: 19017044 ===================================================================== From daaifung at googlemail.com Tue Aug 11 15:43:13 2009 From: daaifung at googlemail.com (Robert Lofthouse) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 14:43:13 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] DjangoCon Schedule Message-ID: <7bdcdcf60908110643n2fa3787ey6afd6ca896caf694@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, We have released the DjangoCon '09 Schedule at: http://www.djangocon.org/2009/conference/schedule/ and will be releasing more information over the next day or two. DjangoCon is on 8th - 12th September in Portland, Oregon at the DoubleTree Green Hotel. We had a great time last year at Google HQ, where 250 people turned up for the first ever DjangoCon (see: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D415FAF806EC47A1 for the videos). Keynotes are: Avi Bryant, Ian Bicking and Ted Leung. We have a wide variety of talks from all aspects of the community, including a Technical Design Panel where you get to discuss design ideas/confusions with the Core devs. You can purchase tickets for the conference here - http://djangocon09.eventbrite.com Robert Lofthouse DjangoCon Chairman - http://www.djangocon.org/ From roderick at sanfransystems.com Tue Aug 11 16:49:10 2009 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:49:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Jobs References: Message-ID: <3227A2385FFE44B2B6D57380D9A2414F@orion> -1 for me. Don't crack down unless it becomes a huge problem. The discussion about these list purity issues is far more lengthy than the actual spam. Yeah the fact that each message posted seems to always quote the original, either directly or indirectly, leads to this kind of controversy's causing hundreds of copies of the original "offending" post! As I've mentioned before, I've found recruiters to be nearly worthless for finding jobs, and seem sometimes to be more interested in fishing for resumes than in placing people. Nevertheless, some spam on this issue is a small price to pay.... if even one person gets a job who wouldn't otherwise have one, that's one person whose family can eat. It is reasonable however that the job be primarily a Python job. If I wanted perl jobs I would subscribe to the Perl list. - Rod L. From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Aug 11 19:21:45 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 10:21:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Free Python course for beginners Message-ID: <315359ED-663C-4C4B-A395-37DF41ABC70E@glenjarvis.com> There are some *great* Python courses out there already. I only bring this up because I've seen a stronger interest suddenly. About six months ago, I was trying to drum up interest in a course in either Python, Django, or Subversion. I *love* teaching and it forces me to actually learn *more* than I would by reading/researching alone. The ideal audience for this course are web designers who have little to no programming background (to match the other audience). That is, you can do HTML pretty well, but don't know how to code a python method. However, any very introductory programmer would be welcome too. I bring this up because one of the potential students is really needing the Python course and has just asked me if we can go through with this. We are considering Wed nights, once per week, through the semester. It's free, except for the time that needs put into it. Real homework assignments would be given and *are* expected to be completed. The ideal class will be between 5 and 20 students. We currently have 2. If you are interested, please contact me off-list. Please note, however, that you may be bored in this class. We're going slow and carefully through the materials in a learning mode. You may need a higher level course. And, there are some other instructors here on BayPIGgies that are really good and can help you. So, with that disclaimer -- introductory only and there *will* be homework -- please let me know your interest :) We hope to start in approximately two weeks. Cheers, Glen From donnamsnow at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:03:23 2009 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 11:03:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Free Python course for beginners In-Reply-To: <315359ED-663C-4C4B-A395-37DF41ABC70E@glenjarvis.com> References: <315359ED-663C-4C4B-A395-37DF41ABC70E@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: Glen, You holding the course in SF? That'd be my only issue - needing to travel up there once a week. Is the locale near transit? I could use some hand holding/motivation/encouragement to actually learn Python ( I know everything else there is to know about zope/plone lol except it's core language!) I'm also planning on adding Django to our service offerings and more Python knowledge would really be a boost. Donna Snow http://card.ly/snowwrite On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > There are some *great* Python courses out there already. I only bring this > up because I've seen a stronger interest suddenly. > > About six months ago, I was trying to drum up interest in a course in > either Python, Django, or Subversion. I *love* teaching and it forces me to > actually learn *more* than I would by reading/researching alone. > > The ideal audience for this course are web designers who have little to no > programming background (to match the other audience). That is, you can do > HTML pretty well, but don't know how to code a python method. However, any > very introductory programmer would be welcome too. > > I bring this up because one of the potential students is really needing the > Python course and has just asked me if we can go through with this. We are > considering Wed nights, once per week, through the semester. It's free, > except for the time that needs put into it. Real homework assignments would > be given and *are* expected to be completed. > > The ideal class will be between 5 and 20 students. We currently have 2. If > you are interested, please contact me off-list. > > Please note, however, that you may be bored in this class. We're going slow > and carefully through the materials in a learning mode. You may need a > higher level course. And, there are some other instructors here on > BayPIGgies that are really good and can help you. > > So, with that disclaimer -- introductory only and there *will* be homework > -- please let me know your interest :) We hope to start in approximately two > weeks. > > > Cheers, > > > Glen > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maff24 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 21:36:58 2009 From: maff24 at gmail.com (Clay) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:36:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Startup Programmer Message-ID: <563AF7BF-495A-4B86-8577-5B16D588FDAC@gmail.com> Hi everyone, I'm writing this email because I need a programmer who wants to partner with me in developing an idea that I believe will change the face of web based chat. Using the python language and community, from what I understand, is the best angle to take in pursuing this goal. The setting: I'm a 23 year old top 20 university Econ/Engineering Mgmt double major working business dev for a software company in Cupertino. I have an amazing idea. An idea that, if executed properly, I believe can not fail. The basic concept is a method to facilitate group real- time web-based discussion, which will in some respects replace comment sections, forums, and other pseudo-live discussion mediums. I won't say any more than that publicly. The plan: I have a rain check on a teleconference with a hedge fund manager who is a family friend and wants to try his hand at high tech, high risk VC. If I bring him a proper prototype, he will fund. So I need help with the prototype, and I'll take selling it from there. After first round funding, you would take over all engineering aspects. I am offering substantial equity in the future-business for whoever takes the job. If this was Apple, I'm looking for a Woz. You would stay on board for however long you want. Hopefully that would be until we are a) bought or b) you are rich and want to travel the world. The need: an exceptionally talented programmer who is willing to be passionate and dedicated to making a great idea a reality. Skills necessary would be Python (duh), Ajax, SQL, HTML and CSS. Other stuff would be necessary I'm sure, but these are the cores. Experience or knowledge of web based chat is probably required also. Recent college grads are great, because I want someone who is optimistic and energetic like myself who believes the sky is the limit. If you are interested, or know of someone else who might be, shoot me an email. NDAs and such can be dealt with when the time comes. I think anyone who speaks with me in person will see that this is something that could be huge, and you will get a sense of my charisma and ability to communicate and sell. Beyond that, however, I will let the concept speak for itself. I apologize to anyone who thinks I have spammed your inbox. I wouldn't have considered taking this step unless I felt compelled to based on the strength of the idea. I hope to hear from some of you soon. -Clay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amax at redsymbol.net Wed Aug 12 04:46:11 2009 From: amax at redsymbol.net (Aaron Maxwell) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:46:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Jobs In-Reply-To: <3227A2385FFE44B2B6D57380D9A2414F@orion> References: <3227A2385FFE44B2B6D57380D9A2414F@orion> Message-ID: <200908111946.12091.amax@redsymbol.net> On Tuesday 11 August 2009 07:49:10 am Roderick Llewellyn wrote: > -1 for me. Don't crack down unless it becomes a huge problem. The > discussion about these list purity issues is far more lengthy than the > actual spam. [snip] > some spam on this issue is a small price to pay.... if even one person > gets a job who wouldn't otherwise have one, that's one person whose > family can eat. Great insightful points. +1 on what Rob says here! -- Aaron Maxwell http://redsymbol.net/ From glen at glenjarvis.com Wed Aug 12 06:56:02 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:56:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Videos of May's meeting Message-ID: <35AB9EF1-4E68-422A-AEEF-ED5EAECD9F74@glenjarvis.com> Because editing the videos was so time intensive, I have hired a student who does this for $20/hour. I have a limited budget of $100 per video (that's $100 per month) to pay him for this editing. Now I have a fixed budget, I can better plan things, and automate things, and stay on task instead of trying to scramble between contracts/ projects as I had been the past year and a half. This is well worth (and cheaper) than what I've been doing. We're behind on video editing. And, the student doesn't have access to the equipment until school starts again. So, here is what we have for May's meeting. Also, please note that we were not able to film Alex Martelli's talk because we were late getting into the building. I have not yet given the July tapes to the student for editing. Also, this is not in a YouTube format. Since this is the first time I hired this out instead of doing it myself, I'd be very interested in your feedback. I know the student, he definitely put the time into the project. In fact, he probably put more in -- these things can really be time intensive. However, regardless of the time involved, I still have high (maybe unrealistic) expectations of what we can have.... <> http://glenjarvis.com/static/media/videos/baypiggies/2009_05_28/ :) Glen From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Aug 12 15:09:10 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 06:09:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Videos of May's meeting In-Reply-To: <35AB9EF1-4E68-422A-AEEF-ED5EAECD9F74@glenjarvis.com> References: <35AB9EF1-4E68-422A-AEEF-ED5EAECD9F74@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <20090812130910.GA22419@panix.com> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > Because editing the videos was so time intensive, I have hired a student > who does this for $20/hour. I have a limited budget of $100 per video > (that's $100 per month) to pay him for this editing. Now I have a fixed > budget, I can better plan things, and automate things, and stay on task > instead of trying to scramble between contracts/projects as I had been > the past year and a half. This is well worth (and cheaper) than what I've > been doing. Note that the PSF would almost certainly be happy to reimburse you for this expense. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz From glen at glenjarvis.com Wed Aug 12 18:21:54 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 09:21:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Clarity on Videos Message-ID: <529571AF-42A6-4D92-8A7E-87A45DA986D7@glenjarvis.com> > I didn't know you were putting money up for these videos, other than > buying the tapes. Just to be clear, I was only buying tapes and batteries. I have *not*, before this, put any money on the project. But, now my time is committed to full time work, it's better if I contract this out. I keep a *very* full plate ... sometimes a little too full... So contracting this out is a better decision. When I said this is cheaper, I mean if you look at the rate I normally charge customers vs the time I put into this, I save money by contracting it out. If there's an offer to pay for the video... 100 per video.... That would be awesome. But, first, I'd like everyone to review the quality and make certain we're happy with it. It's as good, if not better, than what I was doing. However.... I wasn't charging for it :) Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Aug 12 19:00:32 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:00:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Clarity on Videos In-Reply-To: <529571AF-42A6-4D92-8A7E-87A45DA986D7@glenjarvis.com> References: <529571AF-42A6-4D92-8A7E-87A45DA986D7@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <20090812170032.GA21340@panix.com> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > If there's an offer to pay for the video... 100 per video.... That would > be awesome. But, first, I'd like everyone to review the quality and make > certain we're happy with it. It's as good, if not better, than what I was > doing. However.... I wasn't charging for it :) That's irrelevant. The question is whether the Python community receives $100 of value for each video. If the answer is "yes" (or even close to "yes"), I'm pretty confident the PSF will be happy to contribute. After all, that's $1200/year for videos *everyone* in the Python community can see. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Aug 12 19:18:21 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:18:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Developer/SysAdmin @ Egnyte Message-ID: <20090812171821.GA21475@panix.com> Although this is a developer position where Python is required (working knowledge, not expert) you need to also have sysadmin experience to help us package software for deployment on Linux boxes: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/sof/1316191161.html If you have questions, feel free to ask me (you'll be working with me), but please apply through the Craigslist ad and mention me/BayPIGgies. (This is different from the previous job, just to be clear.) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "...string iteration isn't about treating strings as sequences of strings, it's about treating strings as sequences of characters. The fact that characters are also strings is the reason we have problems, but characters are strings for other good reasons." --Aahz From walterv at gbbservices.com Wed Aug 12 20:01:34 2009 From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 11:01:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU tonight 'Python 3: The Next Generation' Wesley Chun Message-ID: <4A83037E.9040709@gbbservices.com> When: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 Topic: Python 3: The Next Generation Speaker: Wesley Chun Time: 6:30pm doors open 7:00pm meeting begins Where: Symantec VCAFE building 350 Ellis Street (near E. Middlefield Road) Mountain View, CA 94043 Map: Directions: VCAFE is accessible from the semicircular courtyard between Symantec buildings Cost: Free More Info: The long awaited sequel to Wesley's ACCU talk from June 2000, "Python for Beginners", is about the evolution of Python. Wesley will discuss Python 2 and Python 3: what the compatibility issues are, why Python is (barely) changing from 2 to 3, and what the main differences are. Finally, Wesley plans to conclude with an intro to Python 2.6 and other migration tools. For those who want to read ahead, Wesley recommends his article from March 2009 "Python 3: The Evolution of a Programming Language", which can be found online at http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1328795 Wesley J. Chun, MSCS, is the author of Prentice Hall's best-selling Core series book, "Core Python Programming", its video training course, "Python Fundamentals" (LiveLessons DVD), co-author of "Python Web Development with Django" , and has also written various technical articles for Linux Journal and cNet. He is currently a senior engineer at a Silicon Valley startup and also runs CyberWeb http://cyberwebconsulting.com, a consulting business specializing in Python software engineering and technical training. He has over 25 years of programming, teaching, and writing experience, including more than a decade of Python. While at Yahoo!, he helped create Yahoo! Mail and Yahoo! People Search using Python. He holds degrees in Computer Science, Mathematics, and Music from the University of California. Meetings are open to the public and are free of charge. ---- Upcoming ACCU talks ----- Wednesday, September 9, 2009 Ali Cehreli "An Introduction to the D Programming Language" --------- The ACCU meets monthly. Meetings are always open to the public and are free of charge. To suggest topics and speakers please email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com From glen at glenjarvis.com Wed Aug 12 20:07:05 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 11:07:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU tonight 'Python 3: The Next Generation' Wesley Chun In-Reply-To: <4A83037E.9040709@gbbservices.com> References: <4A83037E.9040709@gbbservices.com> Message-ID: I've attended Wesley's talks and really enjoy how conversation he is. I like how he communicates things in a very clear way instead of speaking over the audience's head. He keeps the atmosphere fun and enjoyable for learning. Although I personally can't go to this (work commitment), I really encourage any who can to do so. Cheers, Glen On Aug 12, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Walter Vannini wrote: > When: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 > Topic: Python 3: The Next Generation > Speaker: Wesley Chun > Time: 6:30pm doors open > 7:00pm meeting begins > Where: Symantec > VCAFE building > 350 Ellis Street (near E. Middlefield Road) > Mountain View, CA 94043 > Map: > Directions: VCAFE is accessible from the semicircular courtyard > between Symantec buildings > Cost: Free > More Info: > > The long awaited sequel to Wesley's ACCU talk from June 2000, > "Python for Beginners", is about the evolution of Python. Wesley > will discuss Python 2 and Python 3: what the compatibility issues > are, why Python is (barely) changing from 2 to 3, and what the main > differences are. Finally, Wesley plans to conclude with an intro to > Python 2.6 and other migration tools. > > For those who want to read ahead, Wesley recommends his article from > March 2009 "Python 3: The Evolution of a Programming Language", > which can be found online at http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1328795 > > Wesley J. Chun, MSCS, is the author of Prentice Hall's best-selling > Core series book, "Core Python Programming", its video training > course, "Python Fundamentals" (LiveLessons DVD), co-author of > "Python Web Development with Django" , and has also written various > technical articles for Linux Journal and cNet. He is currently a > senior engineer at a Silicon Valley startup and also runs CyberWeb http://cyberwebconsulting.com > , a consulting business specializing in Python software engineering > and technical training. He has over 25 years of programming, > teaching, and writing experience, including more than a decade of > Python. While at Yahoo!, he helped create Yahoo! Mail and Yahoo! > People Search using Python. He holds degrees in Computer Science, > Mathematics, and Music from the University of California. > > Meetings are open to the public and are free of charge. > > > ---- Upcoming ACCU talks ----- > > Wednesday, September 9, 2009 > Ali Cehreli > "An Introduction to the D Programming Language" > > --------- > > The ACCU meets monthly. Meetings are always open to the public and > are free of charge. To suggest topics and speakers please email > Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From wescpy at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 21:46:36 2009 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:46:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU tonight 'Python 3: The Next Generation' Wesley Chun In-Reply-To: References: <4A83037E.9040709@gbbservices.com> Message-ID: <78b3a9580908121246x51aaba87ud645409aa519ba30@mail.gmail.com> > I've attended Wesley's talks and really enjoy how conversation he is. I like > how he communicates things in a very clear way instead of speaking over the > audience's head. He keeps the atmosphere fun and enjoyable for learning. > > Although I personally can't go to this (work commitment), I really encourage > any who can to do so. thanks for the kudos glen. i'll clean it up this talk and give it at BayPIGgies whenever an open slot appears, so you don't have to worry about missing it. cheers, -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 "Python Fundamentals", Prentice Hall, (c)2009 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From glen at glenjarvis.com Wed Aug 12 21:47:11 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:47:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU tonight 'Python 3: The Next Generation' Wesley Chun In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580908121246x51aaba87ud645409aa519ba30@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A83037E.9040709@gbbservices.com> <78b3a9580908121246x51aaba87ud645409aa519ba30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > thanks for the kudos glen. i'll clean it up this talk and give it at > BayPIGgies whenever an open slot appears, so you don't have to worry > about missing it. Awesome :) Thank you :) From annaraven at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 21:49:37 2009 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:49:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU tonight 'Python 3: The Next Generation' Wesley Chun In-Reply-To: References: <4A83037E.9040709@gbbservices.com> <78b3a9580908121246x51aaba87ud645409aa519ba30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> thanks for the kudos glen. i'll clean it up this talk and give it at >> BayPIGgies whenever an open slot appears, so you don't have to worry >> about missing it. > > Awesome :) ? Thank you :) Hooray! I'm looking forward to it! cordially, Anna -- I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater! From wescpy at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 22:03:00 2009 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:03:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Clarity on Videos In-Reply-To: <20090812170032.GA21340@panix.com> References: <529571AF-42A6-4D92-8A7E-87A45DA986D7@glenjarvis.com> <20090812170032.GA21340@panix.com> Message-ID: <78b3a9580908121303s3c33f00fhb12fe779081bb891@mail.gmail.com> >> If there's an offer to pay for the video... 100 per video.... That would >> be awesome. But, first, I'd like everyone to review the quality and make >> certain we're happy with it. It's as good, if not better, than what I was >> doing. However.... I wasn't charging for it :) > > That's irrelevant. ?The question is whether the Python community receives > $100 of value for each video. ?If the answer is "yes" (or even close to > "yes"), I'm pretty confident the PSF will be happy to contribute. ?After > all, that's $1200/year for videos *everyone* in the Python community can > see. aahz has a good point. you're helping out the community as a whole by doing what you're doing. in fact, you should be reimbursed for the tapes and batteries, and this is certainly the case if you're hiring someone out to edit and get them in shape for online delivery. even if for some strange reason the PSF rejects your expense requests, you should at least *file* them. you're already giving of your time; the least the PSF can do is to offset your costs. best, -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Python Web Development with Django", Addison Wesley, (c) 2009 http://withdjango.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From nagappan at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 09:43:45 2009 From: nagappan at gmail.com (Nagappan Alagappan) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 00:43:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Announce: Linux Desktop Testing Project (LDTP) 1.7.0 released Message-ID: <9d0602eb0908130043j54ee27cay5cf8f2c6b5bf925e@mail.gmail.com> Greetings all, We are proud to announce the release of LDTP 1.7.0. This release features number of important breakthroughs in LDTP as well as in the field of Test Automation. This release note covers a brief introduction on LDTP followed by the list of new features and major bug fixes which makes this new version of LDTP the best of the breed. Useful references have been included at the end of this article for those who wish to hack / use LDTP. About LDTP: Linux Desktop Testing Project is aimed at producing high quality test automation framework (C / Python) and cutting-edge tools that can be used to test Linux Desktop and improve it. It uses the Accessibility libraries to poke through the application's user interface. The framework also has tools to record test-cases based on user events in the interface of the application which is under testing. We strive to help in building a quality desktop. LDTP NEWS Mago project uses LDTP - http://mago.ubuntu.com GLOM uses LDTP - http://git.gnome.org/cgit/glom/tree/ldtp/ Whats new in this release: Get the window uptime, maximize, minimize, close, activate all or any given window name are some of the noticable new APIs in this release. Generate key event function now uses xmodmap to determine the current local keyboard and generates the respective key codes. Bug fixes: 590755 ? Keycodes mismatch using generatekeyevent from python-ldtp 586655 ? typo hasstate example with more one state separator '+' instead of ',' 587614 ? Method to measure how long a window is showing up 588674 ? It would be nice if doesrowexist would look for partial matches 587456 ? checkrow action fails on tree table cell 583021 ? If an application changes a context, it is no longer found by LDTP 588819 ? 'import ldtp' freezes interpreter 589898 ? local variable 'gobject' referenced before assignment 586291 ? Subsequent tests fail when first one registers callback handlers 586657 ? Imporve user experience getallstates match for defined state constants Special thanks to Arvind Patil , Ara Pulido , Guofu Xu , nouar garcia-mardmabek , Jos? Luis Segura Lucas , Tim Sun , Anupa Kamath , Paul Larson , Murray Cumming , Armin Burgmeier , New API addition: Window maximize, minimize, close, activate APIs using python wnck module Download source tarball - http://download.freedesktop.org/ldtp/1.x/1.7.x/ldtp-1.7.0.tar.gz Binary (openSUSE / Ubuntu / Fedora / Debian / RHEL / CentOS / Mandriva) - http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/anagappan/ (Just scheduled in openSUSE build service, might take time to complete depending upon the server load) Eitan Isaacson has done a massive work on LDTPv2, a complete rewrite of LDTP in python using pyatspi, available through http://cgit.freedesktop.org/ldtp/ldtp2/tree/ References: For detailed information on LDTP framework and latest updates visit http://ldtp.freedesktop.org For information on various APIs in LDTP including those added for this release can be got from http://ldtp.freedesktop.org/user-doc/index.html To subscribe to LDTP mailing lists, visit http://ldtp.freedesktop.org/wiki/Mailing_20list IRC Channel - #ldtp on irc.freenode.net Thanks Nagappan -- Linux Desktop (GUI Application) Testing Project - http://ldtp.freedesktop.org http://nagappanal.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From salamander at postgresqlconference.org Wed Aug 12 21:51:53 2009 From: salamander at postgresqlconference.org (Amanda Nystrom) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:51:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PostgreSQL Conference West: Call for Papers Message-ID: <8e4c91290908121251k2e2cb1b5oeb389ecaf0b185e0@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I am from the PostgreSQL Conference team and I wanted to give you a quick heads up about the call for papers for the PostgreSQL Conference West. You can see the original call here: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-announce/2009-06/msg00015.php The conference is in October in Seattle, WA, and we are still seeking submissions and would like any and all to submit. Thank you. -- Amanda Nystrom Community Conference Coordinator PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Aug 13 22:08:11 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:08:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon 2010: Call for Proposals Message-ID: <20090813200811.GA7218@panix.com> Call for proposals -- PyCon 2010 -- =============================================================== Due date: October 1st, 2009 Want to showcase your skills as a Python Hacker? Want to have hundreds of people see your talk on the subject of your choice? Have some hot button issue you think the community needs to address, or have some package, code or project you simply love talking about? Want to launch your master plan to take over the world with python? PyCon is your platform for getting the word out and teaching something new to hundreds of people, face to face. Previous PyCon conferences have had a broad range of presentations, from reports on academic and commercial projects, tutorials on a broad range of subjects and case studies. All conference speakers are volunteers and come from a myriad of backgrounds. Some are new speakers, some are old speakers. Everyone is welcome so bring your passion and your code! We're looking to you to help us top the previous years of success PyCon has had. PyCon 2010 is looking for proposals to fill the formal presentation tracks. The PyCon conference days will be February 19-22, 2010 in Atlanta, Georgia, preceded by the tutorial days (February 17-18), and followed by four days of development sprints (February 22-25). Online proposal submission is open now! Proposals will be accepted through October 1st, with acceptance notifications coming out on November 15th. For the detailed call for proposals, please see: For videos of talks from previous years - check out: We look forward to seeing you in Atlanta! From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 09:37:30 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 00:37:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Clarity on Videos In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580908121303s3c33f00fhb12fe779081bb891@mail.gmail.com> References: <529571AF-42A6-4D92-8A7E-87A45DA986D7@glenjarvis.com> <20090812170032.GA21340@panix.com> <78b3a9580908121303s3c33f00fhb12fe779081bb891@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:03 PM, wesley chun wrote: >>> If there's an offer to pay for the video... 100 per video.... That would >>> be awesome. But, first, I'd like everyone to review the quality and make >>> certain we're happy with it. It's as good, if not better, than what I was >>> doing. However.... I wasn't charging for it :) >> >> That's irrelevant. ?The question is whether the Python community receives >> $100 of value for each video. ?If the answer is "yes" (or even close to >> "yes"), I'm pretty confident the PSF will be happy to contribute. ?After >> all, that's $1200/year for videos *everyone* in the Python community can >> see. > > > aahz has a good point. you're helping out the community as a whole by > doing what you're doing. in fact, you should be reimbursed for the > tapes and batteries, and this is certainly the case if you're hiring > someone out to edit and get them in shape for online delivery. even if > for some strange reason the PSF rejects your expense requests, you > should at least *file* them. you're already giving of your time; the > least the PSF can do is to offset your costs. If the PSF doesn't reimburse you, pass the hat at the next meeting ;) -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 09:51:25 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 00:51:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] setuptools fork In-Reply-To: <20090811014127.6cae156b@dartworks.biz> References: <20090811014127.6cae156b@dartworks.biz> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 1:41 AM, Keith Dart wrote: > Just FYI, I just discovered that the setuptools has been forked to a > package named "Distribute". All I have to say is: > Yaaaaaaaa! > > Finally, I don't have to constantly hand-patch 0.6c9 to work with > subversion 1.6. Tarek is a good guy, so I have very high hopes :) -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 09:46:47 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 00:46:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Startup Programmer In-Reply-To: <563AF7BF-495A-4B86-8577-5B16D588FDAC@gmail.com> References: <563AF7BF-495A-4B86-8577-5B16D588FDAC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Clay wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm writing this email because I need a programmer who wants to partner with > me in developing an idea that I believe will change the face of web based > chat. Using the python language and community, from what I understand, is > the best angle to take in pursuing this goal. > > The setting: I'm a 23 year old top 20 university Econ/Engineering Mgmt > double major working business dev for a software company in Cupertino. I > have an amazing idea. An idea that, if executed properly, I believe can not > fail. The basic concept is a method to facilitate group real-time web-based > discussion, which will in some respects replace comment sections, forums, > and other pseudo-live discussion mediums. I won't say any more than that > publicly. > > The plan: I have a rain check on a teleconference with a hedge fund manager > who is a family friend and wants to try his hand at high tech, high risk VC. > If I bring him a proper prototype, he will fund. So I need help with the > prototype, and I'll take selling it from there. After first round funding, > you would take over all engineering aspects. I am offering substantial > equity in the future-business for whoever takes the job. If this was Apple, > I'm looking for a Woz. You would stay on board for however long you want. > Hopefully that would be until we are a) bought or b) you are rich and want > to travel the world. > > The need: an exceptionally talented programmer who is willing to be > passionate and dedicated to making a great idea a reality. Skills necessary > would be Python (duh), Ajax, SQL, HTML and CSS. Other stuff would be > necessary I'm sure, but these are the cores. Experience or knowledge of web > based chat is probably required also. Recent college grads are great, > because I want someone who is optimistic and energetic like myself who > believes the sky is the limit. > > If you are interested, or know of someone else who might be, shoot me an > email. NDAs and such can be dealt with when the time comes. I think anyone > who speaks with me in person will see that this is something that could be > huge, and you will get a sense of my charisma and ability to communicate and > sell. Beyond that, however, I will let the concept speak for itself. > > I apologize to anyone who thinks I have spammed your inbox. I wouldn't have > considered taking this step unless I felt compelled to based on the strength > of the idea. > > I hope to hear from some of you soon. Sounds like a fun idea, but please, no age discrimination. I just turned 34 today, and I still think the sky is the limit (especially when it comes to procreating!) ;) /me giggles ;) -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From fperez.net at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 11:09:34 2009 From: fperez.net at gmail.com (Fernando Perez) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 02:09:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] setuptools fork In-Reply-To: <20090811014127.6cae156b@dartworks.biz> References: <20090811014127.6cae156b@dartworks.biz> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 1:41 AM, Keith Dart wrote: > Just FYI, I just discovered that the setuptools has been forked to a > package named "Distribute". All I have to say is: > Yaaaaaaaa! > An enthusiastic +1 from here as well. I'd really like to thank Tarek for taking on such a difficult and painful task, but one that is in desperate need of a champion. I wish him and the team of contributors to this project the very best! cheers, f From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Aug 14 16:30:44 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:30:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Roll call: women in Python Message-ID: <20090814143044.GA3045@panix.com> http://www.newsprint-fray.com/2009/08/12/roll-call-women-in-python/ -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes From donnamsnow at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 16:54:06 2009 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 07:54:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Roll call: women in Python In-Reply-To: <20090814143044.GA3045@panix.com> References: <20090814143044.GA3045@panix.com> Message-ID: Nice :-) I added my name! Donna Snow card.ly/snowwrite On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Aahz wrote: > http://www.newsprint-fray.com/2009/08/12/roll-call-women-in-python/ > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> > http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped > right there." --Steve Gonedes > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at atoulou.se Fri Aug 14 18:02:08 2009 From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andy Toulouse) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 09:02:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Startup Programmer In-Reply-To: <563AF7BF-495A-4B86-8577-5B16D588FDAC@gmail.com> References: <563AF7BF-495A-4B86-8577-5B16D588FDAC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C340F9A-7A74-4E0C-A1DD-A7B8E8698F44@atoulou.se> Sounds like it has potential to be interesting, but how will it be better than http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.php/Live_Stream_Box ? --Andy On Aug 11, 2009, at 12:36 PM, Clay wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm writing this email because I need a programmer who wants to > partner with me in developing an idea that I believe will change the > face of web based chat. Using the python language and community, > from what I understand, is the best angle to take in pursuing this > goal. > > The setting: I'm a 23 year old top 20 university Econ/Engineering > Mgmt double major working business dev for a software company in > Cupertino. I have an amazing idea. An idea that, if executed > properly, I believe can not fail. The basic concept is a method to > facilitate group real-time web-based discussion, which will in some > respects replace comment sections, forums, and other pseudo-live > discussion mediums. I won't say any more than that publicly. > > The plan: I have a rain check on a teleconference with a hedge fund > manager who is a family friend and wants to try his hand at high > tech, high risk VC. If I bring him a proper prototype, he will fund. > So I need help with the prototype, and I'll take selling it from > there. After first round funding, you would take over all > engineering aspects. I am offering substantial equity in the future- > business for whoever takes the job. If this was Apple, I'm looking > for a Woz. You would stay on board for however long you want. > Hopefully that would be until we are a) bought or b) you are rich > and want to travel the world. > > The need: an exceptionally talented programmer who is willing to be > passionate and dedicated to making a great idea a reality. Skills > necessary would be Python (duh), Ajax, SQL, HTML and CSS. Other > stuff would be necessary I'm sure, but these are the cores. > Experience or knowledge of web based chat is probably required also. > Recent college grads are great, because I want someone who is > optimistic and energetic like myself who believes the sky is the > limit. > > If you are interested, or know of someone else who might be, shoot > me an email. NDAs and such can be dealt with when the time comes. I > think anyone who speaks with me in person will see that this is > something that could be huge, and you will get a sense of my > charisma and ability to communicate and sell. Beyond that, however, > I will let the concept speak for itself. > > I apologize to anyone who thinks I have spammed your inbox. I > wouldn't have considered taking this step unless I felt compelled to > based on the strength of the idea. > > I hope to hear from some of you soon. > > -Clay > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tripathi.vibha at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 18:39:01 2009 From: tripathi.vibha at gmail.com (b. tripathi) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:39:01 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] Roll call: women in Python In-Reply-To: References: <20090814143044.GA3045@panix.com> Message-ID: <4A859325.30407@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.tubbs at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 19:32:54 2009 From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com (Brent Tubbs) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:32:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Startup Programmer In-Reply-To: <5C340F9A-7A74-4E0C-A1DD-A7B8E8698F44@atoulou.se> References: <563AF7BF-495A-4B86-8577-5B16D588FDAC@gmail.com> <5C340F9A-7A74-4E0C-A1DD-A7B8E8698F44@atoulou.se> Message-ID: <769bb4300908141032i3220f691i41969b1e2be52ad2@mail.gmail.com> Google Wave also comes to mind. http://wave.google.com/ On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Andy Toulouse wrote: > Sounds like it has potential to be interesting, but how will it be better > than?http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.php/Live_Stream_Box ? > --Andy > On Aug 11, 2009, at 12:36 PM, Clay wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm writing this email because I need a programmer who wants to partner with > me in developing an idea that I believe will change the face of web based > chat. Using the python language and community, from what I understand, is > the best angle to take in pursuing this goal. > > The setting: I'm a 23 year old top 20 university Econ/Engineering Mgmt > double major working business dev for a software company in Cupertino. I > have an amazing idea. An idea that, if executed properly, I believe can not > fail. The basic concept is a method to facilitate group real-time web-based > discussion, which will in some respects replace comment sections, forums, > and other pseudo-live discussion mediums. I won't say any more than that > publicly. > > The plan: I have a rain check on a teleconference with a hedge fund manager > who is a family friend and wants to try his hand at high tech, high risk VC. > If I bring him a proper prototype, he will fund. So I need help with the > prototype, and I'll take selling it from there. After first round funding, > you would take over all engineering aspects. I am offering substantial > equity in the future-business for whoever takes the job. If this was Apple, > I'm looking for a Woz. You would stay on board for however long you want. > Hopefully that would be until we are a) bought or b) you are rich and want > to travel the world. > > The need: an exceptionally talented programmer who is willing to be > passionate and dedicated to making a great idea a reality. Skills necessary > would be Python (duh), Ajax, SQL, HTML and CSS. Other stuff would be > necessary I'm sure, but these are the cores. Experience or knowledge of web > based chat is probably required also. Recent college grads are great, > because I want someone who is optimistic and energetic like myself who > believes the sky is the limit. > > If you are interested, or know of someone else who might be, shoot me an > email. NDAs and such can be dealt with when the time comes. I think anyone > who speaks with me in person will see that this is something that could be > huge, and you will get a sense of my charisma and ability to communicate and > sell. Beyond that, however, I will let the concept speak for itself. > > I apologize to anyone who thinks I have spammed your inbox. I wouldn't have > considered taking this step unless I felt compelled to based on the strength > of the idea. > > I hope to hear from some of you soon. > > -Clay > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From wescpy at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 19:57:09 2009 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:57:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Clarity on Videos In-Reply-To: References: <529571AF-42A6-4D92-8A7E-87A45DA986D7@glenjarvis.com> <20090812170032.GA21340@panix.com> <78b3a9580908121303s3c33f00fhb12fe779081bb891@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <78b3a9580908141057w3b414c3cy43e98861f1fee667@mail.gmail.com> > If the PSF doesn't reimburse you, pass the hat at the next meeting ;) somewhat of a tangent... some of you oldtimers may remember we *used* to do a hat, back at the stanford location when some of us brought groceries with snacks and drinks to temporarily feed the hungry during the meeting. i don't know what symantec's policies are, but the meeting room does have an area for food and is next to the cafeteria. we can pick that up again if both ppl are interested and symantec gives their ok. -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Python Web Development with Django", Addison Wesley, (c) 2009 http://withdjango.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Aug 18 09:19:27 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 00:19:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Training Course update Message-ID: I've had a reasonable amount of interest in the Free Python Course. My biggest struggle is that practically everyone interested is in the South Bay and I don't know of any suitable space that I can use for free in the area. If anyone knows of a space, it's a community effort and open to everyone (and we spread more Python knowledge :) I surveyed the potential participants and received 15 responses. One of my questions was: Did you know that at least four other BayPIGgie members teach Python courses: Wesley Chun, Jim Stockford, Marilyn Davis and Elaine Haight? Two thirds (66.7%) did not. So, this is definitely an area that we can help our other instructors in -- getting the word out. I didn't remember that Jim was teaching a course (I heard that from Tony). And, I haven't ever directly communicated with Marilyn or Elaine -- but I do see good posts here. I'd like to improve on my networking/ relationships in this area. Of the last 1/3 of those interested who knew of other courses, they were interested in what I proposed because it was free. (That and I promised a similar course in Django down the road). And one person commented that the Foothill college course was cancelled so they were looking for a way to still learn. So, it seems that our community is interested in learning. I'm doing my best to step up to the plate. However, with almost everyone in the South Bay (and less interested in commuting to SF), this is becoming more difficult logistically. I'm trying three alternatives as a "creative solution": 1) Exploring the sfCube.com space by CalTrain (with possibly setting up a distance learning environment), 2) Evaluating if 2nd Life will work as a distance learning environment, and 3) Waiting for some magic location to suddenly appear in the South Bay. In a perfect world, we can do 1 and 2 together and make videos from it to share. However, this has been a *lot* of work and will be much more. So, we are currently delayed two more weeks. We will see what evolves by then. With the subversion course that I'm teaching next week at work, and with preparing for the potential BART strike this weekend, my plate is now full again. This two week delay is the best I can do until a better solution is found. There is interest in this and it's something I think our community can do more of. Plus, learning and teaching is just fun :) So, I hope we can find a way of making this work. Any feedback, questions or concerns are always welcome. Warmest Regards, Glen Jarvis From charles.merriam at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 11:43:33 2009 From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 02:43:33 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Training Course update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Hacker's Dojo is the obvious choice for a Python class, with the space and good access from CalTrains and numerious freeways. http://hackersdojo.com. Charles On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > I've had a reasonable amount of interest in the Free Python Course. My > biggest struggle is that practically everyone interested is in the South Bay > and I don't know of any suitable space that I can use for free in the area. > If anyone knows of a space, it's a community effort and open to everyone > (and we spread more Python knowledge :) > > I surveyed the potential participants and received 15 responses. One of my > questions was: > > Did you know that at least four other BayPIGgie members teach Python > courses: Wesley Chun, Jim Stockford, Marilyn Davis and Elaine Haight? > > Two thirds (66.7%) did not. So, this is definitely an area that we can help > our other instructors in -- getting the word out. I didn't remember that Jim > was teaching a course (I heard that from Tony). And, I haven't ever directly > communicated with Marilyn or Elaine -- but I do see good posts here. I'd > like to improve on my networking/relationships in this area. > > Of the last 1/3 of those interested who knew of other courses, they were > interested in what I proposed because it was free. (That and I promised a > similar course in Django down the road). And one person commented that the > Foothill college course was cancelled so they were looking for a way to > still learn. > > So, it seems that our community is interested in learning. I'm doing my best > to step up to the plate. However, with almost everyone in the South Bay (and > less interested in commuting to SF), this is becoming more difficult > logistically. I'm trying three alternatives as a "creative solution": 1) > Exploring the sfCube.com space by CalTrain (with possibly setting up a > distance learning environment), 2) Evaluating if 2nd Life will work as a > distance learning environment, and 3) Waiting for some magic location to > suddenly appear in the South Bay. > > In a perfect world, we can do 1 and 2 together and make videos from it to > share. However, this has been a *lot* of work and will be much more. > > So, we are currently delayed two more weeks. We will see what evolves by > then. With the subversion course that I'm teaching next week at work, and > with preparing for the potential BART strike this weekend, my plate is now > full again. This two week delay is the best I can do until a better solution > is found. > > There is interest in this and it's something I think our community can do > more of. Plus, learning and teaching is just fun :) So, I hope we can find a > way of making this work. Any feedback, questions or concerns are always > welcome. > > > Warmest Regards, > > > > Glen Jarvis > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From aleax at google.com Tue Aug 18 17:39:48 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:39:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Training Course update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55dc209b0908180839o5efb0a4l48e438fe33ae6de6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 2:43 AM, Charles Merriam wrote: > The Hacker's Dojo is the obvious choice for a Python class, with the > space and good access from CalTrains and numerious freeways. > http://hackersdojo.com. Good idea, but the right URL is http://hackerdojo.pbworks.com/ . They're having an open house this coming Sunday, Aug 23, so that sounds like a great opportunity to have a chat with them (I can't make it, myself -- for once I'm taking some time off and going somewhere during the weekend;-). Alex From resmith at runbox.com Thu Aug 20 05:17:22 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 46, Issue 23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>Mybiggest struggle is that practically everyone interested is in the >> South Bay and I don't know of any suitable space that I can use for >> free in the area. The City of Santa Clara Public Library has a free conference room (Sycamore Room) that is open during library hours (but must be vacated 15 minutes before closing). This room has a conference table with 10 chairs, a small white board, but no provision for video projection. The room also has a padded seat along both windows that would allow more than 10 people (they specifically state that no extra chairs can be brought into the room) if they allow seating there. The library is at 2635 Homestead Road (408) 615-2930. From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 06:59:57 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 21:59:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven Message-ID: I've written a blog post here: http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2009/08/javascript-dom-vs-innerhtml-server.html. The first paragraph is below: "What's the best approach to architecting JavaScript, and which frameworks best support that approach? Is it best to build the app mostly on the client like Gmail and Google Maps, or is it better to provide a normal HTML page, but with lots of Ajax mixed in like YouTube? Which approach leads to the fewest bugs when the client and server get out of sync? How does your server respond to Ajax requests? Does it serve up JavaScript code to run, JSON or XML data to digest, or pre-rendered HTML?" I know this is a bit off topic, but it's a crucial decision I'm making right now for my app. I've talked to some of you about it before. I'm completely fascinated by this subject. If you are too, read the rest of the post above and leave a comment :) Happy Hacking! -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From aleax at google.com Fri Aug 21 08:05:38 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:05:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> I do suggest you get a broader range of opinions -- baypiggies' a self-selected sample of rabid fans of Python, after all. So for example I'd expect strong support for dojo, by far the most Pythonic of the best-known Javascript frameworks (Alex Russell enthused about it when I went to have my copy of "Dojo, the definitive guide" signed by him -- he's a Python in a Nutshell fan and very deliberately took dojo design principles as his guideline, wherever feasible, to design Dojo. So: modular, explicit, no altering builtins, no black magic behind the scenes, etc, etc. Ask Ruby people, PHP people, etc, etc, and you'll get samples with different biases; jQuery will be very popular, I suspect. Ask self-selected early adopters of not (yet?) very popular technology, and you'll get the Ext guys, the mochikit ones, the mootools ones, etc, etc. Ask a Cobol crowd, they'll probably say Prototype;-). Now to the core issue, this is one argument I made (improvised, but the more I think about it the more it looks like my off-the-cuff intuition was sound this time) at OSCON's "open source web languages" panel... which had nobody defending Javascript (Python, Ruby, PHP, Java and Perl were the 5 "debaters"), so I took that mantle on myself (double-timing Python;-). Everybody dreams of Scalability... the dream problem to have: millions are hitting your website, how are you going to cope? Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof -- scalability's a given now. You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your server, the better. So, making your server a REST / CRUD webservice (or something close to that but with a bit less hypertext navigation and a bit more URIs being put together client-side, actually;-), and putting all logic on the client (in JS + Dojo) save what's needed to guarantee data integrity server-side (as clients could turn malicious!-), is the right general approach to the architecture. BTW, don't bother serving dojo itself (or jquery etc) -- use Google's URLs for the JS framework you use (or AOL's, whatever!-). Yeah, that limits you to reasonably popular frameworks, but, like the syllable and scansion limits in haikus or sonnets, that's GOOD for you!-). You save bandwidth &c that's giving you zero added value: great ROI!-) So that's one argument for "thin server architecture" (TSA: except that some heretics consider that implies XML payloads, while I think that anybody not using JSON payloads ought to get their heads examined, but that's a different jihad!!!-). There are others, and you've heard most of them, JJ. The incredible huge payoff of "thin server" comes when suddenly the business side people spring up the need for a new client optimized for X (where X in (iPhone, Pre, Android, Nokia S60, Xbox, netbooks, wii, commodore 64, whatever!)) -- zero server-side rework, *ALL* the work to support a new and wondrous client is client-side, EXACTLY as logic dictates it SHOULD be. Get THAT going with your Django, Rails, &c server-heavy views peppered with just enough Javascript to be dangerous, will you...;-) Alex On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > I've written a blog post here: > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2009/08/javascript-dom-vs-innerhtml-server.html. > ?The first paragraph is below: > > "What's the best approach to architecting JavaScript, and which > frameworks best support that approach? Is it best to build the app > mostly on the client like Gmail and Google Maps, or is it better to > provide a normal HTML page, but with lots of Ajax mixed in like > YouTube? Which approach leads to the fewest bugs when the client and > server get out of sync? How does your server respond to Ajax requests? > Does it serve up JavaScript code to run, JSON or XML data to digest, > or pre-rendered HTML?" > > I know this is a bit off topic, but it's a crucial decision I'm making > right now for my app. ?I've talked to some of you about it before. > I'm completely fascinated by this subject. ?If you are too, read the > rest of the post above and leave a comment :) > > Happy Hacking! > -jj > > -- > In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things > with great love. -- Mother Teresa > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From billkatz at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 10:37:50 2009 From: billkatz at gmail.com (Bill Katz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:37:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <59aa95140908210137o487cd14wd96fb83577584acd@mail.gmail.com> I agree with Alex's comment. If you have sufficiently complex use cases, it makes sense to build a rich javascript client-side "app" that communicates via JSON with well-defined server-side resources. First, you have the option of untethering it from the server using Google Gears, Adobe Air, or some other framework that makes your browser-based javascript act more like a local application. This could be a big win for users on planes, deadspots, etc. Second, you can handle server-side timeouts and other issues more robustly from a user perspective. If you do go the rich client-side app approach, there are a number of frameworks that specialize in building apps compared to just sprinkling AJAX into HTML. I think Extjs has the best looking widgets, especially their grids, and that's what I'm using for my stuff. There are Template classes that let you manipulate DOM in a more elegant way than just writing strings to innerHTML. GWT looks really solid, if you're OK with coding Java for the most part, and you can drop down to javascript when necessary. The Google Wave client shows how sharp programmers can make GWT really shine. Cappuccino (http://cappuccino.org/) is an interesting framework that's like Cocoa for browsers but uses Objective-J. In the near future, both Extjs and Cappuccino will release very slick GUI builders that generate code. -Bill On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > I do suggest you get a broader range of opinions -- baypiggies' a > self-selected sample of rabid fans of Python, after all. So for > example I'd expect strong support for dojo, by far the most Pythonic > of the best-known Javascript frameworks (Alex Russell enthused about > it when I went to have my copy of "Dojo, the definitive guide" signed > by him -- he's a Python in a Nutshell fan and very deliberately took > dojo design principles as his guideline, wherever feasible, to design > Dojo. So: modular, explicit, no altering builtins, no black magic > behind the scenes, etc, etc. > > Ask Ruby people, PHP people, etc, etc, and you'll get samples with > different biases; jQuery will be very popular, I suspect. Ask > self-selected early adopters of not (yet?) very popular technology, > and you'll get the Ext guys, the mochikit ones, the mootools ones, > etc, etc. Ask a Cobol crowd, they'll probably say Prototype;-). > > Now to the core issue, this is one argument ?I made (improvised, but > the more I think about it the more it looks like my off-the-cuff > intuition was sound this time) at OSCON's "open source web languages" > panel... which had nobody defending Javascript (Python, Ruby, PHP, > Java and Perl were the 5 "debaters"), so I took that mantle on myself > (double-timing Python;-). > > Everybody dreams of Scalability... the dream problem to have: millions > are hitting your website, how are you going to cope? > > Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's > browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits > give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is > running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof > -- scalability's a given now. > > You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you > are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, > SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your > server, the better. > > So, making your server a REST / CRUD webservice (or something close to > that but with a bit less hypertext navigation and a bit more URIs > being put together client-side, actually;-), and putting all logic on > the client (in JS + Dojo) save what's needed to guarantee data > integrity server-side (as clients could turn malicious!-), is the > right general approach to the architecture. > > BTW, don't bother serving dojo itself (or jquery etc) -- use Google's > URLs for the JS framework you use (or AOL's, whatever!-). Yeah, that > limits you to reasonably popular frameworks, but, like the syllable > and scansion limits in haikus or sonnets, that's GOOD for you!-). You > save bandwidth &c that's giving you zero added value: great ROI!-) > > So that's one argument for "thin server architecture" (TSA: except > that some heretics consider that implies XML payloads, while I think > that anybody not using JSON payloads ought to get their heads > examined, but that's a different jihad!!!-). There are others, and > you've heard most of them, JJ. > > The incredible huge payoff of "thin server" comes when suddenly the > business side people spring up the need for a new client optimized for > X (where X in (iPhone, Pre, Android, Nokia S60, Xbox, netbooks, wii, > commodore 64, whatever!)) -- zero server-side rework, *ALL* the work > to support a new and wondrous client is client-side, EXACTLY as logic > dictates it SHOULD be. > > Get THAT going with your Django, Rails, &c server-heavy views peppered > with just enough Javascript to be dangerous, will you...;-) > > > Alex > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> I've written a blog post here: >> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2009/08/javascript-dom-vs-innerhtml-server.html. >> ?The first paragraph is below: >> >> "What's the best approach to architecting JavaScript, and which >> frameworks best support that approach? Is it best to build the app >> mostly on the client like Gmail and Google Maps, or is it better to >> provide a normal HTML page, but with lots of Ajax mixed in like >> YouTube? Which approach leads to the fewest bugs when the client and >> server get out of sync? How does your server respond to Ajax requests? >> Does it serve up JavaScript code to run, JSON or XML data to digest, >> or pre-rendered HTML?" >> >> I know this is a bit off topic, but it's a crucial decision I'm making >> right now for my app. ?I've talked to some of you about it before. >> I'm completely fascinated by this subject. ?If you are too, read the >> rest of the post above and leave a comment :) >> >> Happy Hacking! >> -jj >> >> -- >> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things >> with great love. -- Mother Teresa >> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From rami.chowdhury at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 16:44:18 2009 From: rami.chowdhury at gmail.com (Rami Chowdhury) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 07:44:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <59aa95140908210137o487cd14wd96fb83577584acd@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <59aa95140908210137o487cd14wd96fb83577584acd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Of course, if you're considering Java and GWT, I'd suggest Python and Pyjamas (http://pyjs.org/) ;-) On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:37:50 -0700, Bill Katz wrote: > I agree with Alex's comment. If you have sufficiently complex use > cases, it makes sense to build a rich javascript client-side "app" > that communicates via JSON with well-defined server-side resources. > First, you have the option of untethering it from the server using > Google Gears, Adobe Air, or some other framework that makes your > browser-based javascript act more like a local application. This > could be a big win for users on planes, deadspots, etc. Second, you > can handle server-side timeouts and other issues more robustly from a > user perspective. > > If you do go the rich client-side app approach, there are a number of > frameworks that specialize in building apps compared to just > sprinkling AJAX into HTML. I think Extjs has the best looking > widgets, especially their grids, and that's what I'm using for my > stuff. There are Template classes that let you manipulate DOM in a > more elegant way than just writing strings to innerHTML. > > GWT looks really solid, if you're OK with coding Java for the most > part, and you can drop down to javascript when necessary. The Google > Wave client shows how sharp programmers can make GWT really shine. > Cappuccino (http://cappuccino.org/) is an interesting framework that's > like Cocoa for browsers but uses Objective-J. In the near future, > both Extjs and Cappuccino will release very slick GUI builders that > generate code. > > -Bill > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: >> I do suggest you get a broader range of opinions -- baypiggies' a >> self-selected sample of rabid fans of Python, after all. So for >> example I'd expect strong support for dojo, by far the most Pythonic >> of the best-known Javascript frameworks (Alex Russell enthused about >> it when I went to have my copy of "Dojo, the definitive guide" signed >> by him -- he's a Python in a Nutshell fan and very deliberately took >> dojo design principles as his guideline, wherever feasible, to design >> Dojo. So: modular, explicit, no altering builtins, no black magic >> behind the scenes, etc, etc. >> >> Ask Ruby people, PHP people, etc, etc, and you'll get samples with >> different biases; jQuery will be very popular, I suspect. Ask >> self-selected early adopters of not (yet?) very popular technology, >> and you'll get the Ext guys, the mochikit ones, the mootools ones, >> etc, etc. Ask a Cobol crowd, they'll probably say Prototype;-). >> >> Now to the core issue, this is one argument ?I made (improvised, but >> the more I think about it the more it looks like my off-the-cuff >> intuition was sound this time) at OSCON's "open source web languages" >> panel... which had nobody defending Javascript (Python, Ruby, PHP, >> Java and Perl were the 5 "debaters"), so I took that mantle on myself >> (double-timing Python;-). >> >> Everybody dreams of Scalability... the dream problem to have: millions >> are hitting your website, how are you going to cope? >> >> Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's >> browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits >> give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is >> running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof >> -- scalability's a given now. >> >> You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you >> are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, >> SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your >> server, the better. >> >> So, making your server a REST / CRUD webservice (or something close to >> that but with a bit less hypertext navigation and a bit more URIs >> being put together client-side, actually;-), and putting all logic on >> the client (in JS + Dojo) save what's needed to guarantee data >> integrity server-side (as clients could turn malicious!-), is the >> right general approach to the architecture. >> >> BTW, don't bother serving dojo itself (or jquery etc) -- use Google's >> URLs for the JS framework you use (or AOL's, whatever!-). Yeah, that >> limits you to reasonably popular frameworks, but, like the syllable >> and scansion limits in haikus or sonnets, that's GOOD for you!-). You >> save bandwidth &c that's giving you zero added value: great ROI!-) >> >> So that's one argument for "thin server architecture" (TSA: except >> that some heretics consider that implies XML payloads, while I think >> that anybody not using JSON payloads ought to get their heads >> examined, but that's a different jihad!!!-). There are others, and >> you've heard most of them, JJ. >> >> The incredible huge payoff of "thin server" comes when suddenly the >> business side people spring up the need for a new client optimized for >> X (where X in (iPhone, Pre, Android, Nokia S60, Xbox, netbooks, wii, >> commodore 64, whatever!)) -- zero server-side rework, *ALL* the work >> to support a new and wondrous client is client-side, EXACTLY as logic >> dictates it SHOULD be. >> >> Get THAT going with your Django, Rails, &c server-heavy views peppered >> with just enough Javascript to be dangerous, will you...;-) >> >> >> Alex >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens >> wrote: >>> I've written a blog post here: >>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2009/08/javascript-dom-vs-innerhtml-server.html. >>> ?The first paragraph is below: >>> >>> "What's the best approach to architecting JavaScript, and which >>> frameworks best support that approach? Is it best to build the app >>> mostly on the client like Gmail and Google Maps, or is it better to >>> provide a normal HTML page, but with lots of Ajax mixed in like >>> YouTube? Which approach leads to the fewest bugs when the client and >>> server get out of sync? How does your server respond to Ajax requests? >>> Does it serve up JavaScript code to run, JSON or XML data to digest, >>> or pre-rendered HTML?" >>> >>> I know this is a bit off topic, but it's a crucial decision I'm making >>> right now for my app. ?I've talked to some of you about it before. >>> I'm completely fascinated by this subject. ?If you are too, read the >>> rest of the post above and leave a comment :) >>> >>> Happy Hacking! >>> -jj >>> >>> -- >>> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things >>> with great love. -- Mother Teresa >>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Baypiggies mailing list >>> Baypiggies at python.org >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- Rami Chowdhury "Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity" -- Hanlon's Razor 408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD) From aleax at google.com Fri Aug 21 18:07:13 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:07:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <59aa95140908210137o487cd14wd96fb83577584acd@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <59aa95140908210137o487cd14wd96fb83577584acd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0908210907y4f55be46ga85ba96c6f2d240f@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Bill Katz wrote: > I agree with Alex's comment. ?If you have sufficiently complex use > cases, it makes sense to build a rich javascript client-side "app" > that communicates via JSON with well-defined server-side resources. > First, you have the option of untethering it from the server using > Google Gears, Adobe Air, or some other framework that makes your > browser-based javascript act more like a local application. ?This Dojo is particularly good at offering a transparent way to use whatever resources are available for such things as local storage (also similarly for graphics &c, I think, but I don't do much graphics so I don't know for sure - also that doesn't matter to offline work;-) -- whether it's some small browser-specific local store, HTML5, Gears, whatever. (It can even fall back to the server as the last resort iff no way at all is available locally -- all more or less transparently / declaratively, without needing to contort your application level code for the purpose). Not sure if other frameworks have caught up to dojo on this "transparency" issue by now, back when I researched this it was really a killer feature for dojo from my POV;-). > could be a big win for users on planes, deadspots, etc. ?Second, you > can handle server-side timeouts and other issues more robustly from a > user perspective. > > If you do go the rich client-side app approach, there are a number of > frameworks that specialize in building apps compared to just > sprinkling AJAX into HTML. ?I think Extjs has the best looking > widgets, especially their grids, and that's what I'm using for my > stuff. ?There are Template classes that let you manipulate DOM in a > more elegant way than just writing strings to innerHTML. I guess "best looking" is a subjective call and I don't claim expertise on "looks" -- dojox.grid, http://www.dojotoolkit.org/book/dojo-book-0-9/docx-documentation-under-development/grid , seems fine to me;-). > GWT looks really solid, if you're OK with coding Java for the most > part, and you can drop down to javascript when necessary. ?The Google > Wave client shows how sharp programmers can make GWT really shine. > Cappuccino (http://cappuccino.org/) is an interesting framework that's > like Cocoa for browsers but uses Objective-J. ?In the near future, > both Extjs and Cappuccino will release very slick GUI builders that > generate code. I have my issues with code generation -- ORMs that generate SQL on my behalf, GWT, Pyjamas, Visual Studio's long-standing GUI builders, etc. They never make code as good as I'd write by hand, and they always add limitations. And editing the generated code is a sure road to disaster. I like GUI builders (since I'm no good at graphic design anyway, the looks they generate won't be worse than the ones I'd make by hand;-), but I'd rather have them generate _data_ -- and then a simple engine can paint the GUI based on the data -- the approach XCode and Qt Builder take, on the desktop. I don't know if anything like that is in the offing for any JS GUI/toolkit framework, though. Alex From billkatz at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 20:19:36 2009 From: billkatz at gmail.com (Bill Katz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:19:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908210907y4f55be46ga85ba96c6f2d240f@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <59aa95140908210137o487cd14wd96fb83577584acd@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908210907y4f55be46ga85ba96c6f2d240f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <59aa95140908211119i499f4aablef7d36d2156903a0@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: > I guess "best looking" is a subjective call and I don't claim > expertise on "looks" -- dojox.grid, > http://www.dojotoolkit.org/book/dojo-book-0-9/docx-documentation-under-development/grid > , seems fine to me;-). I'll take a harder look at Dojo but back when I made my choice, Extjs had a better looking and more complete widget set. (And beauty is in the eye of the beholder.) Here are some head-to-head comparisons from 2 years and 1 year ago, respectively: http://blog.tremend.ro/2007/08/22/dojo-vs-extjs-how-dojo-lost-in-front-of-other-ui-frameworks-like-ext-js/ http://www.dojotoolkit.org/forum/dojo-foundation/general-discussion/dojo-vs-extjs But that was then. All js frameworks are progressing. You can view the current offerings: Dojo demos are at http://demos.dojotoolkit.org/demos/ Extjs demos are at http://extjs.com/deploy/dev/examples/samples.html Dojo has a big advantage -- they're open source for commercial use unlike Extjs. I'm a single developer so I didn't find Extjs licensing a burden. For many, this is a deal breaker. > I have my issues with code generation -- ORMs that generate SQL on my > behalf, GWT, Pyjamas, Visual Studio's long-standing GUI builders, etc. > They never make code as good as I'd write by hand, and they always add > limitations. And editing the generated code is a sure road to > disaster. I also have issues with code generators and like aspects of Javascript, particularly vs. Java. To play devil's advocate, though, code generators can decrease the amount of code necessary for a particular UI. It will only include the exact parts of the necessary framework (unlike a more blocky library include) and can also build browser-specific code, which is probably tighter. I don't know what the true savings might be when you consider caching and Google AJAX Library API. Also, not everyone is as good a coder as Alex so at least in my case, generated javascript is as good or better execution-wise if not readability-wise. Regards, Bill From niallo at unworkable.org Fri Aug 21 22:25:32 2009 From: niallo at unworkable.org (Niall O'Higgins) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:25:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Py Web SF #3: 6pm, Tues August 25th, SF Main Public Library Message-ID: <20090821202532.GP18543@unworkable.org> Hi folks, I have confirmed the venue, time and speaker lineup for this month's PyWebSF meet! I also set up Google Calendar so that you can subscribe to and view PyWebSF events more easily: http://tinyurl.com/pywebcal. PyWebSF is a Python meet-up with a strong focus on Web technology. From frameworks like WSGI/Pylons/TurboGears/Django to libraries like httplib2 to using emerging Web technologies like Amazon's AWS and Freebase - its all covered. The emphasis is on practical, hands-on lectures and discussion. Meetings start with one or two 30-40 minute presentations and end with informal discussion. Hackathon-style collaboration and project demos are encouraged. Who/What -------- * Colin Evans - "Hadoop + Python = Happy" * Niall O'Higgins - "OAuth and OpenID: A Python Hacker's Guide" When ---- 6pm, Tuesday, 25th August 2009. Please try to arrive on time to avoid disappointment. We have space for around 10-20 people. Where ----- Stong conference room, 1st floor, SF Main Public Library. Map: http://tinyurl.com/pywebsfmap The library is easily accessible via both BART and Muni at the Civic Center station. The library closes at 8pm so we will continue the discussion over food/drinks at Frjtz Fries [http://www.frjtzfries.com]. More info --------- Subscribe to our Google Calendar at http://tinyurl.com/pywebcal Slides, links, and more at http://pywebsf.org/ Thanks! -- Niall O'Higgins PyWebSF http://pywebsf.org http://niallohiggins.com From keith at dartworks.biz Fri Aug 21 22:53:16 2009 From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:53:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090821135316.02024c97@dartworks.biz> === On Thu, 08/20, Alex Martelli wrote: === > Everybody dreams of Scalability... the dream problem to have: millions > are hitting your website, how are you going to cope? === I agree 100%. In fact I have been designing a javascript/Python based framework for a while now (little extra time, so slow going). There is some code here, if you are interested: Most Python parts here: http://code.google.com/p/pycopia/source/browse/#svn/trunk/WWW/pycopia/WWW Some of the JS parts: http://code.google.com/p/pycopia/source/browse/trunk/WWW/media/js/ There's more I haven't "published" yet. But the basic idea is use JS/DOM/Mochikit in the browser, and use lightweight Python backend with JSON serialization. What is defined in these modules is a Python proxy that transparently transfers data and objects between Javascript and Python. With it you can, in the browser, call a JS function using JS native types and it ends up calling a Python function with Python native types. The return value is also transparently converted. -- Keith Dart -- -- -------------------- Keith Dart ======================= From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 00:54:53 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:54:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > I do suggest you get a broader range of opinions I am. A bunch of people read my blog, and I asked the SF Ruby mailing list too :) > -- baypiggies' a > self-selected sample of rabid fans of Python, after all. So for > example I'd expect strong support for dojo, by far the most Pythonic > of the best-known Javascript frameworks (Alex Russell enthused about > it when I went to have my copy of "Dojo, the definitive guide" signed > by him -- he's a Python in a Nutshell fan and very deliberately took > dojo design principles as his guideline, wherever feasible, to design > Dojo. So: modular, explicit, no altering builtins, no black magic > behind the scenes, etc, etc. > > Ask Ruby people, PHP people, etc, etc, and you'll get samples with > different biases; jQuery will be very popular, I suspect. Ask > self-selected early adopters of not (yet?) very popular technology, > and you'll get the Ext guys, the mochikit ones, the mootools ones, > etc, etc. Ask a Cobol crowd, they'll probably say Prototype;-). So far the consensus is 75% for jQuery and 25% for YUI. Three of the UIs I like the best are written in YUI, which is a strong testament. > Now to the core issue, this is one argument ?I made (improvised, but > the more I think about it the more it looks like my off-the-cuff > intuition was sound this time) at OSCON's "open source web languages" > panel... which had nobody defending Javascript (Python, Ruby, PHP, > Java and Perl were the 5 "debaters"), so I took that mantle on myself > (double-timing Python;-). > > Everybody dreams of Scalability... the dream problem to have: millions > are hitting your website, how are you going to cope? > > Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's > browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits > give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is > running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof > -- scalability's a given now. The problem is, unless you're writing a Web app that doesn't store any data, you still have to talk to a central server--the DB is still the bottleneck. A lot of JS people are complaining that by putting too much responsibility on the browser, the browser can't keep up. The browser was falling over when Freebase took this approach. I can always buy more servers, but I can't do anything if the user's machine is overloaded. This, apparently, is a big problem with animations these days. > You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you > are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, > SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your > server, the better. > > So, making your server a REST / CRUD webservice (or something close to > that but with a bit less hypertext navigation and a bit more URIs > being put together client-side, actually;-), and putting all logic on > the client (in JS + Dojo) save what's needed to guarantee data > integrity server-side (as clients could turn malicious!-), is the > right general approach to the architecture. I 100% agree with you in theory, and 85% disagree with you in practice based on the experience of everyone I keep talking to about that approach. Browsers just aren't as awesome as we'd like them to be. > BTW, don't bother serving dojo itself (or jquery etc) -- use Google's > URLs for the JS framework you use (or AOL's, whatever!-). Agreed. > Yeah, that > limits you to reasonably popular frameworks, but, like the syllable > and scansion limits in haikus or sonnets, that's GOOD for you!-). Agreed. > You > save bandwidth &c that's giving you zero added value: great ROI!-) Best of all, that stuff is probably already cached in the user's browser. > So that's one argument for "thin server architecture" (TSA: except > that some heretics consider that implies XML payloads, while I think > that anybody not using JSON payloads ought to get their heads > examined, but that's a different jihad!!!-). Couldn't agree more. When XML first became popular (aka overhyped), I kept saying, "Yeah, but I can do the same thing with Python data structures", which as you know is almost exactly the same as JSON. > There are others, and > you've heard most of them, JJ. > > The incredible huge payoff of "thin server" comes when suddenly the > business side people spring up the need for a new client optimized for > X (where X in (iPhone, Pre, Android, Nokia S60, Xbox, netbooks, wii, > commodore 64, whatever!)) -- zero server-side rework, *ALL* the work > to support a new and wondrous client is client-side, EXACTLY as logic > dictates it SHOULD be. That is a very good argument. > Get THAT going with your Django, Rails, &c server-heavy views peppered > with just enough Javascript to be dangerous, will you...;-) I'm cool with building a RESTful service. It's just that the consensus on my blog has very strongly been that it's better to generate most of your HTML on the server because the browser really can't cope with extremely heavy usage of building the UI via DOM calls or innerHTML calls. My favorite example of a RIA is Gmail, and even it is remarkably simple compared to something like YouTube :-/ Thanks for your comments, by the way :-D -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 00:56:11 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:56:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > I do suggest you get a broader range of opinions I am. ?A bunch of people read my blog, and I asked the SF Ruby mailing list too :) > -- baypiggies' a > self-selected sample of rabid fans of Python, after all. So for > example I'd expect strong support for dojo, by far the most Pythonic > of the best-known Javascript frameworks (Alex Russell enthused about > it when I went to have my copy of "Dojo, the definitive guide" signed > by him -- he's a Python in a Nutshell fan and very deliberately took > dojo design principles as his guideline, wherever feasible, to design > Dojo. So: modular, explicit, no altering builtins, no black magic > behind the scenes, etc, etc. > > Ask Ruby people, PHP people, etc, etc, and you'll get samples with > different biases; jQuery will be very popular, I suspect. Ask > self-selected early adopters of not (yet?) very popular technology, > and you'll get the Ext guys, the mochikit ones, the mootools ones, > etc, etc. Ask a Cobol crowd, they'll probably say Prototype;-). So far the consensus is 75% for jQuery and 25% for YUI. ?Three of the UIs I like the best are written in YUI, which is a strong testament. > Now to the core issue, this is one argument ?I made (improvised, but > the more I think about it the more it looks like my off-the-cuff > intuition was sound this time) at OSCON's "open source web languages" > panel... which had nobody defending Javascript (Python, Ruby, PHP, > Java and Perl were the 5 "debaters"), so I took that mantle on myself > (double-timing Python;-). > > Everybody dreams of Scalability... the dream problem to have: millions > are hitting your website, how are you going to cope? > > Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's > browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits > give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is > running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof > -- scalability's a given now. The problem is, unless you're writing a Web app that doesn't store any data, you still have to talk to a central server--the DB is still the bottleneck. ?A lot of JS people are complaining that by putting too much responsibility on the browser, the browser can't keep up. ?The browser was falling over when Freebase took this approach. ?I can always buy more servers, but I can't do anything if the user's machine is overloaded. ?This, apparently, is a big problem with animations these days. > You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you > are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, > SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your > server, the better. > > So, making your server a REST / CRUD webservice (or something close to > that but with a bit less hypertext navigation and a bit more URIs > being put together client-side, actually;-), and putting all logic on > the client (in JS + Dojo) save what's needed to guarantee data > integrity server-side (as clients could turn malicious!-), is the > right general approach to the architecture. I 100% agree with you in theory, and 85% disagree with you in practice based on the experience of everyone I keep talking to about that approach. ?Browsers just aren't as awesome as we'd like them to be. > BTW, don't bother serving dojo itself (or jquery etc) -- use Google's > URLs for the JS framework you use (or AOL's, whatever!-). Agreed. > Yeah, that > limits you to reasonably popular frameworks, but, like the syllable > and scansion limits in haikus or sonnets, that's GOOD for you!-). Agreed. > You > save bandwidth &c that's giving you zero added value: great ROI!-) Best of all, that stuff is probably already cached in the user's browser. > So that's one argument for "thin server architecture" (TSA: except > that some heretics consider that implies XML payloads, while I think > that anybody not using JSON payloads ought to get their heads > examined, but that's a different jihad!!!-). Couldn't agree more. ?When XML first became popular (aka overhyped), I kept saying, "Yeah, but I can do the same thing with Python data structures", which as you know is almost exactly the same as JSON. > There are others, and > you've heard most of them, JJ. > > The incredible huge payoff of "thin server" comes when suddenly the > business side people spring up the need for a new client optimized for > X (where X in (iPhone, Pre, Android, Nokia S60, Xbox, netbooks, wii, > commodore 64, whatever!)) -- zero server-side rework, *ALL* the work > to support a new and wondrous client is client-side, EXACTLY as logic > dictates it SHOULD be. That is a very good argument. > Get THAT going with your Django, Rails, &c server-heavy views peppered > with just enough Javascript to be dangerous, will you...;-) I'm cool with building a RESTful service. ?It's just that the consensus on my blog has very strongly been that it's better to generate most of your HTML on the server because the browser really can't cope with extremely heavy usage of building the UI via DOM calls or innerHTML calls. ?My favorite example of a RIA is Gmail, and even it is remarkably simple compared to something like YouTube :-/ Thanks for your comments, by the way :-D -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 01:00:02 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:00:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <59aa95140908210137o487cd14wd96fb83577584acd@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <59aa95140908210137o487cd14wd96fb83577584acd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Bill Katz wrote: > I agree with Alex's comment. ?If you have sufficiently complex use > cases, it makes sense to build a rich javascript client-side "app" > that communicates via JSON with well-defined server-side resources. > First, you have the option of untethering it from the server using > Google Gears, Adobe Air, or some other framework that makes your > browser-based javascript act more like a local application. ?This > could be a big win for users on planes, deadspots, etc. ?Second, you > can handle server-side timeouts and other issues more robustly from a > user perspective. The potential to use Google Gears is definitely a good argument. > If you do go the rich client-side app approach, there are a number of > frameworks that specialize in building apps compared to just > sprinkling AJAX into HTML. ?I think Extjs has the best looking > widgets, especially their grids, and that's what I'm using for my > stuff. ?There are Template classes that let you manipulate DOM in a > more elegant way than just writing strings to innerHTML. Ok, that's interesting. I wonder who's using that and how they like it. I remember my buddy wrote one called Midgit or something--it was modeled after Genshi. > GWT looks really solid, if you're OK with coding Java for the most > part, and you can drop down to javascript when necessary. Naturally, I'd use Pyjamas ;) >?The Google > Wave client shows how sharp programmers can make GWT really shine. > Cappuccino (http://cappuccino.org/) is an interesting framework that's > like Cocoa for browsers but uses Objective-J. ?In the near future, > both Extjs and Cappuccino will release very slick GUI builders that > generate code. Interesting. If only I knew more people who were using that approach :-/ Thanks! -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 01:03:58 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:03:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908210907y4f55be46ga85ba96c6f2d240f@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <59aa95140908210137o487cd14wd96fb83577584acd@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908210907y4f55be46ga85ba96c6f2d240f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Dojo is particularly good at offering... Dojo is brilliant. The only complaint I've ever had about Dojo is that the code isn't very pretty. YUI is *so much* more polished. Perhaps things have changed in the Dojo world, but that's the way it was when I last looked a couple years ago. As "boring" as YUI is, the source is beautiful. -jj From patenaude at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 01:56:49 2009 From: patenaude at gmail.com (Mitch Patenaude) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:56:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Unicode woes using print and redirects... Message-ID: I have a problem when outputting some strings using the print builtin. If there is a unicode specific string it does the right thing as long as stdout hasn't been redirected. I have tired to use the codec.EncodedFile to wrap sys.stdout and try to get it to recode the output, or fool it into thinking that stdout can handle utf8 in either case, but that only causes *both* cases to fail, even though I pass in either errors='ignore' or errors='replace'. I'm stumped. Can anyone enlighten me? Details: When I run it from the command line without redirection it works fine: mitch at phobos:~/src/pylib/twarkov$ ./enc_test.py isatty Encoding: UTF-8 foo? Yay! but when I redirect the output at all, it fails: mitch at phobos:~/src/pylib/twarkov$ ./enc_test.py | cat notatty Encoding: None Damnit! 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u2475' in position 3: ordinal not in range(128) enc_test.py: #!/usr/bin/python import sys import codecs ttyout = sys.stderr if sys.stdout.isatty(): ttyout.write('isatty\n') else: ttyout.write('notatty\n') ttyout.write('Encoding: %s\n' % sys.stdout.encoding) fooout = codecs.EncodedFile(sys.stdout, 'utf-8', file_encoding='utf-8', errors='ignore') trouble=u'foo\u2475\n' try: # fooout.write(trouble) print trouble ttyout.write('Yay!\n') except UnicodeEncodeError, e: ttyout.write('Damnit! %s\n' % (e,)) mitch at phobos:~/src/pylib/twarkov$ uname -a Linux phobos 2.6.24-24-generic #1 SMP Tue Aug 18 17:04:53 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux mitch at phobos:~/src/pylib/twarkov$ cat /etc/lsb-release DISTRIB_ID=Ubuntu DISTRIB_RELEASE=8.04 DISTRIB_CODENAME=hardy DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="Ubuntu 8.04.3 LTS" mitch at phobos:~/src/pylib/twarkov$ locale LANG=en_US.UTF-8 LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8" LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8" LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8" LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8" LC_NAME="en_US.UTF-8" LC_ADDRESS="en_US.UTF-8" LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.UTF-8" LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.UTF-8" LC_ALL= From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 02:24:20 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:24:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Unicode woes using print and redirects... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Mitch Patenaude wrote: > I have a problem when outputting some strings using the print builtin. > ?If there is a unicode specific string it does the right thing as long > as stdout hasn't been redirected. > > I have tired to use the codec.EncodedFile to wrap sys.stdout and try > to get it to recode the output, or fool it into thinking that stdout > can handle utf8 in either case, but that only causes *both* cases to > fail, even though I pass in either errors='ignore' or > errors='replace'. ?I'm stumped. ?Can anyone enlighten me? > > Details: > When I run it from the command line without redirection it works fine: > mitch at phobos:~/src/pylib/twarkov$ ./enc_test.py > isatty > Encoding: UTF-8 > foo? > > Yay! > > but when I redirect the output at all, it fails: > mitch at phobos:~/src/pylib/twarkov$ ./enc_test.py | cat > notatty > Encoding: None > Damnit! ?'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u2475' in position 3: > ordinal not in range(128) > > enc_test.py: > #!/usr/bin/python > > import sys > import codecs > > ttyout = sys.stderr > > if sys.stdout.isatty(): > ?ttyout.write('isatty\n') > else: > ?ttyout.write('notatty\n') > > ttyout.write('Encoding: %s\n' % sys.stdout.encoding) > > fooout = codecs.EncodedFile(sys.stdout, 'utf-8', > file_encoding='utf-8', errors='ignore') > > trouble=u'foo\u2475\n' > > try: > ?# fooout.write(trouble) > ?print trouble > ?ttyout.write('Yay!\n') > except UnicodeEncodeError, e: > ?ttyout.write('Damnit! ?%s\n' % (e,)) > > mitch at phobos:~/src/pylib/twarkov$ uname -a > Linux phobos 2.6.24-24-generic #1 SMP Tue Aug 18 17:04:53 UTC 2009 > i686 GNU/Linux > mitch at phobos:~/src/pylib/twarkov$ cat /etc/lsb-release > DISTRIB_ID=Ubuntu > DISTRIB_RELEASE=8.04 > DISTRIB_CODENAME=hardy > DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="Ubuntu 8.04.3 LTS" > mitch at phobos:~/src/pylib/twarkov$ locale > LANG=en_US.UTF-8 > LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_NAME="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_ADDRESS="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.UTF-8" > LC_ALL= I don't know the answer, but does it work if you switch to using write? -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Aug 22 02:31:48 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:31:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Unicode woes using print and redirects... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090822003148.GA4803@panix.com> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009, Mitch Patenaude wrote: > > If there is a unicode specific string it does the right thing as long > as stdout hasn't been redirected. > > I have tired to use the codec.EncodedFile to wrap sys.stdout and try > to get it to recode the output, or fool it into thinking that stdout > can handle utf8 in either case, but that only causes *both* cases to > fail, even though I pass in either errors='ignore' or > errors='replace'. I'm stumped. Can anyone enlighten me? What version of Python? Check the FAQs on python.org -- this is a typical question on c.l.python, though I don't remember the answer off-hand. (Also check Google.) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I support family values -- Addams family values" --www.nancybuttons.com From stephen.cattaneo at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 02:38:56 2009 From: stephen.cattaneo at gmail.com (Stephen Cattaneo) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:38:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <59aa95140908210137o487cd14wd96fb83577584acd@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908210907y4f55be46ga85ba96c6f2d240f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA95A1D-5C2C-45C3-A21D-7156145153D6@gmail.com> +1 for YUI /** * I am jack's amusing signature. * ( Sent from my iphone ) **/ On Aug 21, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> Dojo is particularly good at offering... > > Dojo is brilliant. The only complaint I've ever had about Dojo is > that the code isn't very pretty. YUI is *so much* more polished. > Perhaps things have changed in the Dojo world, but that's the way it > was when I last looked a couple years ago. As "boring" as YUI is, the > source is beautiful. > > -jj > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 02:40:27 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:40:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Unicode woes using print and redirects... In-Reply-To: <20090822003148.GA4803@panix.com> References: <20090822003148.GA4803@panix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009, Mitch Patenaude wrote: >> >> If there is a unicode specific string it does the right thing as long >> as stdout hasn't been redirected. >> >> I have tired to use the codec.EncodedFile to wrap sys.stdout and try >> to get it to recode the output, or fool it into thinking that stdout >> can handle utf8 in either case, but that only causes *both* cases to >> fail, even though I pass in either errors='ignore' or >> errors='replace'. ?I'm stumped. ?Can anyone enlighten me? > > What version of Python? ?Check the FAQs on python.org -- this is a > typical question on c.l.python, though I don't remember the answer > off-hand. ?(Also check Google.) Does this thread help? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/492483/setting-the-correct-encoding-when-piping-stdout-in-python -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From rami.chowdhury at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 06:50:57 2009 From: rami.chowdhury at gmail.com (Rami Chowdhury) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:50:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] August meeting -- signup? Message-ID: The events page suggests registering, but the wiki page seems to be abandoned -- where does one sign up? ------------- Rami Chowdhury "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice." -- Hanlon's Razor 408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD) From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Aug 22 06:53:27 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:53:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] August meeting -- signup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090822045327.GA12579@panix.com> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009, Rami Chowdhury wrote: > > The events page suggests registering, but the wiki page seems to be > abandoned -- where does one sign up? The events page has been out of date since we stopped meeting at Google; someone needs to update that page... -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I support family values -- Addams family values" --www.nancybuttons.com From rami.chowdhury at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 07:04:52 2009 From: rami.chowdhury at gmail.com (Rami Chowdhury) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 22:04:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] August meeting -- signup? In-Reply-To: <20090822045327.GA12579@panix.com> References: <20090822045327.GA12579@panix.com> Message-ID: <9D6D8D8C-D2FE-4F22-8101-489A3A70777E@gmail.com> The page at http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesMeetingSignup does describe the meeting venue at Symantec, is that up to date? ------------- Rami Chowdhury "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice." -- Hanlon's Razor 408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD) On Aug 21, 2009, at 21:53 , Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009, Rami Chowdhury wrote: >> >> The events page suggests registering, but the wiki page seems to be >> abandoned -- where does one sign up? > > The events page has been out of date since we stopped meeting at > Google; > someone needs to update that page... > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http:// > www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "I support family values -- Addams family values" -- > www.nancybuttons.com > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From bdbaddog at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 07:06:22 2009 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 22:06:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] August meeting -- signup? In-Reply-To: <9D6D8D8C-D2FE-4F22-8101-489A3A70777E@gmail.com> References: <20090822045327.GA12579@panix.com> <9D6D8D8C-D2FE-4F22-8101-489A3A70777E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0908212206p5ed59e5amec115679aea4bad@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:04 PM, Rami Chowdhury wrote: > The page at http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesMeetingSignup does > describe the meeting venue at Symantec, is that up to date? Yes. -Bill > ------------- > Rami Chowdhury > "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice." -- Hanlon's Razor > 408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD) > > > > > On Aug 21, 2009, at 21:53 , Aahz wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009, Rami Chowdhury wrote: >>> >>> The events page suggests registering, but the wiki page seems to be >>> abandoned -- where does one sign up? >> >> The events page has been out of date since we stopped meeting at Google; >> someone needs to update that page... >> -- >> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) ? ? ? ? ? <*> >> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ >> >> "I support family values -- Addams family values" --www.nancybuttons.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From bdbaddog at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 07:16:45 2009 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 22:16:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] August meeting -- signup? In-Reply-To: <20090822045327.GA12579@panix.com> References: <20090822045327.GA12579@panix.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0908212216u4d0f2768qacc20f55bac0d2bb@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009, Rami Chowdhury wrote: >> >> The events page suggests registering, but the wiki page seems to be >> abandoned -- where does one sign up? > > The events page has been out of date since we stopped meeting at Google; > someone needs to update that page... Fixed. It's a portlet. That was non-trivial to find.. Plone... -Bill From rami.chowdhury at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 07:21:57 2009 From: rami.chowdhury at gmail.com (Rami Chowdhury) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 22:21:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] August meeting -- signup? In-Reply-To: <8540148a0908212216u4d0f2768qacc20f55bac0d2bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090822045327.GA12579@panix.com> <8540148a0908212216u4d0f2768qacc20f55bac0d2bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <748444F1-039C-4493-9347-B482F1AC0AEC@gmail.com> > Fixed. Thank you! ------------- Rami Chowdhury "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice." -- Hanlon's Razor 408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD) On Aug 21, 2009, at 22:16 , William Deegan wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Aahz wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009, Rami Chowdhury wrote: >>> >>> The events page suggests registering, but the wiki page seems to be >>> abandoned -- where does one sign up? >> >> The events page has been out of date since we stopped meeting at >> Google; >> someone needs to update that page... > > Fixed. > It's a portlet. > That was non-trivial to find.. > Plone... > > -Bill > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 08:00:45 2009 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 23:00:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Using Open Office Impress to open Idle. Message-ID: <8249c4ac0908232300m4122dbfcv775fddc79e51f728@mail.gmail.com> Has anyone here used Open Office Impress- to launch an editor, and have the editor open a specific source file? I'm actually trying to launch Idle- to view a python file, however I want to be able to click on a link in Impress to launch the editor. The hyperlinks in Impress appear to only support other OO applications, not arbitrary applications. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Aug 24 09:14:52 2009 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 00:14:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Using Google Protocol Buffers under IronPython In-Reply-To: <4A92376E.6090505@andrewrondeau.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <20090821135316.02024c97@dartworks.biz> <4A923172.1000803@andrewrondeau.com> <4A923333.6030106@andrewrondeau.com> <4A92376E.6090505@andrewrondeau.com> Message-ID: A friend of mine asked me to forward this question to the list (please reply to Andy directly): Does anyone have any experience using Google Protocol Buffers under IronPython? He's trying to find a reliable way to use Protocol Buffers under .Net, but he doesn't have much Python experience. _________________________________________________________________ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andywiggin at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 05:48:09 2009 From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:48:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Using Open Office Impress to open Idle. In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0908232300m4122dbfcv775fddc79e51f728@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908232300m4122dbfcv775fddc79e51f728@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <74e7428a0908242048h34be0162teafa75e5e3092d0d@mail.gmail.com> I've never done that, but it does sound kind of neat. If there were no way to get ooimpress to do it, and you really wanted to make it work, you could do something like implement a really simple web server (say, using CherryPy or something else where all you have to do is write the URL response function). It could support one URL, e.g. "open", with a filename argument. Then, you wouldn't actually return much in the way HTML from this URL, but as a side effect you could spawn a process which runs idle to open the file. Then for your hyperlink in ooimpress you use the URL of the page in the server, like "http://locahost:4321/open?file=somefile.py". If the little web server is running on your local machine on port 4321, it should just pop up the window... at least if you're on Linux... other OSs it seems like it should work too, but I'm not as familiar. Again, never tried it, just a thought. Cheers, Andy On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > Has anyone here used Open Office Impress- to launch an editor, and have the > editor open a specific source file? > I'm actually trying to launch Idle- to view a python file, however I want to > be able to click on a link in Impress to launch the editor. > > The hyperlinks in Impress appear to only support other OO applications, not > arbitrary applications. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From tom at btaccel.com Tue Aug 25 09:06:47 2009 From: tom at btaccel.com (tom) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 00:06:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] freelance opportunity: btaccel.com (san francisco, ca), a hosted torrent client Message-ID: <637A7AD4-E0E6-4CCE-9A06-808ABDAB8665@btaccel.com> freelance opportunity: btaccel.com (san francisco, ca), a hosted torrent client job description: python / django developer freelance leading to full time position experience required: -python (3 years) -django (1 year) -mysql (2 years), or a desire to try appengine and pick up our stuff and move it there You will be reporting directly to the cto. a hearty confidence in Your coding abilities is required. this is not an entry level position. You have shipped a number of products successfully and feel confident in Your abilities to work without supervision or code level review. You might have a full time job that is keeping Your lights on, but are looking for an opportunity to take responsibility for a complete product and really shine. btaccel.com is hosted torrent client. basically we move data. lots of it in the current alpha test, lots more of it tomorrow. invite code pythonjob tom at btaccel.com From jim at well.com Tue Aug 25 18:49:14 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:49:14 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: Intro to wxPython Message-ID: <1251218954.6819.27.camel@jim-laptop> BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: Introduction to wxPython NOTE BayPIGgies meets at the Symantec Vcafe, at Symantec's location at 350 Ellis Street in Mountain View. http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18 Tonight's talk is * Introduction to wxPython by Tony Cappollini Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. Tonight's Newbie Nugget: List Comprehension LOCATION Symantec Corporation Symantec Vcafe 350 Ellis Street Mountain View, CA 94043 BayPIGgies meeting information is available at http://baypiggies.net/new/plone ------------------------ Agenda ------------------------ ..... 7:30 PM ........................... General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, any first-minute announcements. ..... 7:35 PM to 7:35 PM ................ Newbie Nugget: List Comprehension ..... 7:35 PM to 8:55 PM ................ Title: Introduction to wxPython by Tony Cappellini wxPython presents the wxWidgets open source cross-platform GUI library to Python programmers. Tonight's talk presents essential issues of using wxPython. ..... 8:55 PM to 9:20 PM ................ Mapping and Random Access Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics the announcers are interested in. Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually on the announcements and other topics of interest. From aleax at google.com Tue Aug 25 20:20:41 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:20:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> "The browser just can't hack it" may be true if you do have to care intensely for a certain kind of demographics -- the "if IE6 was good enough for my gramps it's good enough for me" folks (some ridiculously-late-adopters, some trapped in Dilbertian enterprises where IT's key role is denying services and making every employee miserable). If your main audience is folks smart enough to use Chrome, FF 3.5, Safari 4, etc, or even I suspect IE8 (have not benchmarked the latter myself), the argument loses validity. "The database is the bottleneck": maybe, if you're stuck in the slowsand of relational DBs (especially inferior ones, and/or with the "Vietnam of CS", ORMs, rather than well-tuned and hand-optimized SQL on a serious engine, such as PostgreSQL, Oracle, MS Server, IBM DB2, ..., with a real DBA, not a programmer-making-believe-they're-a-DBA, overseeing it). Much as I love relational, I suspect (and wish it wasn't so, believe me) that the future of scalability is with key/value stores such as Google's bigtable, CouchDB, etc, etc. AND those are especially suited to dirt-simple, cruddy operations -- definitely NOT the place to site any business logic (beyond "as minimal as you can get away with" indispensable data integrity checks to avoid DB pollution). Modern browsers (including any with Gears on them;-) let you store data locally -- so your DB load should also get lighter that way (you probably do eventually want a central copy of lots of stuff, as a backup and to enable users to switch browsers and computers with ease, but that can mostly happen asynchronously, if and when feasible, on a best-effort basis)... as long as you do have as much as feasible of the logic _close to the data_. If you insist on keeping most all logic centralized, if you're deliberately choosing an inferior architecture to support IE6 folks, you're doing so at the detriment of the smart users to which you could offer a vastly superior UX. And remember, with frameworks such as Dojo or jQuery, you won't be completely cutting off the dinosaurs -- the site or app will just be slow and clunky for them (and if they're on IE6, they're _used_ to slow and clunky anyway;-). Alex On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: >> I do suggest you get a broader range of opinions > > I am. ?A bunch of people read my blog, and I asked the SF Ruby mailing > list too :) > >> -- baypiggies' a >> self-selected sample of rabid fans of Python, after all. So for >> example I'd expect strong support for dojo, by far the most Pythonic >> of the best-known Javascript frameworks (Alex Russell enthused about >> it when I went to have my copy of "Dojo, the definitive guide" signed >> by him -- he's a Python in a Nutshell fan and very deliberately took >> dojo design principles as his guideline, wherever feasible, to design >> Dojo. So: modular, explicit, no altering builtins, no black magic >> behind the scenes, etc, etc. >> >> Ask Ruby people, PHP people, etc, etc, and you'll get samples with >> different biases; jQuery will be very popular, I suspect. Ask >> self-selected early adopters of not (yet?) very popular technology, >> and you'll get the Ext guys, the mochikit ones, the mootools ones, >> etc, etc. Ask a Cobol crowd, they'll probably say Prototype;-). > > So far the consensus is 75% for jQuery and 25% for YUI. ?Three of the > UIs I like the best are written in YUI, which is a strong testament. > >> Now to the core issue, this is one argument ?I made (improvised, but >> the more I think about it the more it looks like my off-the-cuff >> intuition was sound this time) at OSCON's "open source web languages" >> panel... which had nobody defending Javascript (Python, Ruby, PHP, >> Java and Perl were the 5 "debaters"), so I took that mantle on myself >> (double-timing Python;-). >> >> Everybody dreams of Scalability... the dream problem to have: millions >> are hitting your website, how are you going to cope? >> >> Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's >> browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits >> give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is >> running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof >> -- scalability's a given now. > > The problem is, unless you're writing a Web app that doesn't store any > data, you still have to talk to a central server--the DB is still the > bottleneck. ?A lot of JS people are complaining that by putting too > much responsibility on the browser, the browser can't keep up. ?The > browser was falling over when Freebase took this approach. ?I can > always buy more servers, but I can't do anything if the user's machine > is overloaded. ?This, apparently, is a big problem with animations > these days. > >> You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you >> are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, >> SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your >> server, the better. >> >> So, making your server a REST / CRUD webservice (or something close to >> that but with a bit less hypertext navigation and a bit more URIs >> being put together client-side, actually;-), and putting all logic on >> the client (in JS + Dojo) save what's needed to guarantee data >> integrity server-side (as clients could turn malicious!-), is the >> right general approach to the architecture. > > I 100% agree with you in theory, and 85% disagree with you in practice > based on the experience of everyone I keep talking to about that > approach. ?Browsers just aren't as awesome as we'd like them to be. > >> BTW, don't bother serving dojo itself (or jquery etc) -- use Google's >> URLs for the JS framework you use (or AOL's, whatever!-). > > Agreed. > >> Yeah, that >> limits you to reasonably popular frameworks, but, like the syllable >> and scansion limits in haikus or sonnets, that's GOOD for you!-). > > Agreed. > >> You >> save bandwidth &c that's giving you zero added value: great ROI!-) > > Best of all, that stuff is probably already cached in the user's browser. > >> So that's one argument for "thin server architecture" (TSA: except >> that some heretics consider that implies XML payloads, while I think >> that anybody not using JSON payloads ought to get their heads >> examined, but that's a different jihad!!!-). > > Couldn't agree more. ?When XML first became popular (aka overhyped), I > kept saying, "Yeah, but I can do the same thing with Python data > structures", which as you know is almost exactly the same as JSON. > >> There are others, and >> you've heard most of them, JJ. >> >> The incredible huge payoff of "thin server" comes when suddenly the >> business side people spring up the need for a new client optimized for >> X (where X in (iPhone, Pre, Android, Nokia S60, Xbox, netbooks, wii, >> commodore 64, whatever!)) -- zero server-side rework, *ALL* the work >> to support a new and wondrous client is client-side, EXACTLY as logic >> dictates it SHOULD be. > > That is a very good argument. > >> Get THAT going with your Django, Rails, &c server-heavy views peppered >> with just enough Javascript to be dangerous, will you...;-) > > I'm cool with building a RESTful service. ?It's just that the > consensus on my blog has very strongly been that it's better to > generate most of your HTML on the server because the browser really > can't cope with extremely heavy usage of building the UI via DOM calls > or innerHTML calls. ?My favorite example of a RIA is Gmail, and even > it is remarkably simple compared to something like YouTube :-/ > > Thanks for your comments, by the way :-D > > -jj > > -- > In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things > with great love. -- Mother Teresa > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ > From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 21:58:43 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 12:58:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: > "The browser just can't hack it" may be true if you do have to care > intensely for a certain kind of demographics -- the "if IE6 was good > enough for my gramps it's good enough for me" folks (some > ridiculously-late-adopters, some trapped in Dilbertian enterprises > where IT's key role is denying services and making every employee > miserable). > > If your main audience is folks smart enough to use Chrome, FF 3.5, > Safari 4, etc, or even I suspect IE8 (have not benchmarked the latter > myself), the argument loses validity. > > "The database is the bottleneck": maybe, if you're stuck in the > slowsand of relational DBs (especially inferior ones, and/or with the > "Vietnam of CS", ORMs, rather than well-tuned and hand-optimized SQL > on a serious engine, such as PostgreSQL, Oracle, MS Server, IBM DB2, > ..., with a real DBA, not a programmer-making-believe-they're-a-DBA, > overseeing it). Much as I love relational, I suspect (and wish it > wasn't so, believe me) that the future of scalability is with > key/value stores such as Google's bigtable, CouchDB, etc, etc. AND > those are especially suited to dirt-simple, cruddy operations -- > definitely NOT the place to site any business logic (beyond "as > minimal as you can get away with" indispensable data integrity checks > to avoid DB pollution). > > Modern browsers (including any with Gears on them;-) let you store > data locally -- so your DB load should also get lighter that way (you > probably do eventually want a central copy of lots of stuff, as a > backup and to enable users to switch browsers and computers with ease, > but that can mostly happen asynchronously, if and when feasible, on a > best-effort basis)... as long as you do have as much as feasible of > the logic _close to the data_. If you insist on keeping most all logic > centralized, if you're deliberately choosing an inferior architecture > to support IE6 folks, you're doing so at the detriment of the smart > users to which you could offer a vastly superior UX. And remember, > with frameworks such as Dojo or jQuery, you won't be completely > cutting off the dinosaurs -- the site or app will just be slow and > clunky for them (and if they're on IE6, they're _used_ to slow and > clunky anyway;-). /me giggles Reading your comments is enjoyable, as always, Alex ;) I think I'll switch to BigTable (what's the URL again?) and start calling IE6 users "gramps" ;) -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From rich.pixley at palm.com Tue Aug 25 22:18:54 2009 From: rich.pixley at palm.com (Rich Pixley) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:18:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A94472E.8010509@palm.com> Software aside, there's also a HUGE range of user hardware as well. There's a big difference between building animations or streaming video for a 1Ghz p5 with 64Mbytes of 133 memory and standard vga/isa video card vs a 2.5Ghz, quad core amd64 with 8Gbytes of 1066 and a "high end" GPU which has more Mflops than a "supercomputer". And, or course, the slow software tends to be running on the slow hardware and vice verse. Television had a similar problem, except that the air waves are regulated federally. We had monaural television with low resolution for a very long time. There isn't really much choice aside from multiple distribution/broadcast channels or planned obsolescence. We have it slightly easier in that we /can/ check the size of the pipe, the strength of the user's machine, and adjust our behavior accordingly. But there's a ongoing open question about whether that's cost effective. Seems to me there are a number of oscillations in the world like centralization/decentralization or independence/interdependence. First things swing one way, and when we get tired of that, they swing the other. I'll just point out that X11 is still in active use over 25 years later and no one even remembers NeWS. Anyone remember the rash of "thin client" "internet appliance" devices that went around in the late '90's? --rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.enderwick at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 00:23:52 2009 From: jeff.enderwick at gmail.com (Jeff Enderwick) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:23:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: a few application-dependent things to consider: - security: what can be left on the endpoint, and how can browser-resident code be trusted? - support & test: can you debug your app when things are going wrong at the endpoint, and what is the test impact for N browsers? - "The browser just can't hack it": when writing and debugging JS, it is not unusual for me to see FF or Safari lockup or crash 5-10 times in a day. Yeah, I'm makin' bugs, but the browser is not likely as robust an execution environment as that which you're using on the server. $.02 On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: > "The browser just can't hack it" may be true if you do have to care > intensely for a certain kind of demographics -- the "if IE6 was good > enough for my gramps it's good enough for me" folks (some > ridiculously-late-adopters, some trapped in Dilbertian enterprises > where IT's key role is denying services and making every employee > miserable). > > If your main audience is folks smart enough to use Chrome, FF 3.5, > Safari 4, etc, or even I suspect IE8 (have not benchmarked the latter > myself), the argument loses validity. > > "The database is the bottleneck": maybe, if you're stuck in the > slowsand of relational DBs (especially inferior ones, and/or with the > "Vietnam of CS", ORMs, rather than well-tuned and hand-optimized SQL > on a serious engine, such as PostgreSQL, Oracle, MS Server, IBM DB2, > ..., with a real DBA, not a programmer-making-believe-they're-a-DBA, > overseeing it). Much as I love relational, I suspect (and wish it > wasn't so, believe me) that the future of scalability is with > key/value stores such as Google's bigtable, CouchDB, etc, etc. AND > those are especially suited to dirt-simple, cruddy operations -- > definitely NOT the place to site any business logic (beyond "as > minimal as you can get away with" indispensable data integrity checks > to avoid DB pollution). > > Modern browsers (including any with Gears on them;-) let you store > data locally -- so your DB load should also get lighter that way (you > probably do eventually want a central copy of lots of stuff, as a > backup and to enable users to switch browsers and computers with ease, > but that can mostly happen asynchronously, if and when feasible, on a > best-effort basis)... as long as you do have as much as feasible of > the logic _close to the data_. If you insist on keeping most all logic > centralized, if you're deliberately choosing an inferior architecture > to support IE6 folks, you're doing so at the detriment of the smart > users to which you could offer a vastly superior UX. And remember, > with frameworks such as Dojo or jQuery, you won't be completely > cutting off the dinosaurs -- the site or app will just be slow and > clunky for them (and if they're on IE6, they're _used_ to slow and > clunky anyway;-). > > > Alex > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: >>> I do suggest you get a broader range of opinions >> >> I am. ?A bunch of people read my blog, and I asked the SF Ruby mailing >> list too :) >> >>> -- baypiggies' a >>> self-selected sample of rabid fans of Python, after all. So for >>> example I'd expect strong support for dojo, by far the most Pythonic >>> of the best-known Javascript frameworks (Alex Russell enthused about >>> it when I went to have my copy of "Dojo, the definitive guide" signed >>> by him -- he's a Python in a Nutshell fan and very deliberately took >>> dojo design principles as his guideline, wherever feasible, to design >>> Dojo. So: modular, explicit, no altering builtins, no black magic >>> behind the scenes, etc, etc. >>> >>> Ask Ruby people, PHP people, etc, etc, and you'll get samples with >>> different biases; jQuery will be very popular, I suspect. Ask >>> self-selected early adopters of not (yet?) very popular technology, >>> and you'll get the Ext guys, the mochikit ones, the mootools ones, >>> etc, etc. Ask a Cobol crowd, they'll probably say Prototype;-). >> >> So far the consensus is 75% for jQuery and 25% for YUI. ?Three of the >> UIs I like the best are written in YUI, which is a strong testament. >> >>> Now to the core issue, this is one argument ?I made (improvised, but >>> the more I think about it the more it looks like my off-the-cuff >>> intuition was sound this time) at OSCON's "open source web languages" >>> panel... which had nobody defending Javascript (Python, Ruby, PHP, >>> Java and Perl were the 5 "debaters"), so I took that mantle on myself >>> (double-timing Python;-). >>> >>> Everybody dreams of Scalability... the dream problem to have: millions >>> are hitting your website, how are you going to cope? >>> >>> Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's >>> browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits >>> give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is >>> running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof >>> -- scalability's a given now. >> >> The problem is, unless you're writing a Web app that doesn't store any >> data, you still have to talk to a central server--the DB is still the >> bottleneck. ?A lot of JS people are complaining that by putting too >> much responsibility on the browser, the browser can't keep up. ?The >> browser was falling over when Freebase took this approach. ?I can >> always buy more servers, but I can't do anything if the user's machine >> is overloaded. ?This, apparently, is a big problem with animations >> these days. >> >>> You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you >>> are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, >>> SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your >>> server, the better. >>> >>> So, making your server a REST / CRUD webservice (or something close to >>> that but with a bit less hypertext navigation and a bit more URIs >>> being put together client-side, actually;-), and putting all logic on >>> the client (in JS + Dojo) save what's needed to guarantee data >>> integrity server-side (as clients could turn malicious!-), is the >>> right general approach to the architecture. >> >> I 100% agree with you in theory, and 85% disagree with you in practice >> based on the experience of everyone I keep talking to about that >> approach. ?Browsers just aren't as awesome as we'd like them to be. >> >>> BTW, don't bother serving dojo itself (or jquery etc) -- use Google's >>> URLs for the JS framework you use (or AOL's, whatever!-). >> >> Agreed. >> >>> Yeah, that >>> limits you to reasonably popular frameworks, but, like the syllable >>> and scansion limits in haikus or sonnets, that's GOOD for you!-). >> >> Agreed. >> >>> You >>> save bandwidth &c that's giving you zero added value: great ROI!-) >> >> Best of all, that stuff is probably already cached in the user's browser. >> >>> So that's one argument for "thin server architecture" (TSA: except >>> that some heretics consider that implies XML payloads, while I think >>> that anybody not using JSON payloads ought to get their heads >>> examined, but that's a different jihad!!!-). >> >> Couldn't agree more. ?When XML first became popular (aka overhyped), I >> kept saying, "Yeah, but I can do the same thing with Python data >> structures", which as you know is almost exactly the same as JSON. >> >>> There are others, and >>> you've heard most of them, JJ. >>> >>> The incredible huge payoff of "thin server" comes when suddenly the >>> business side people spring up the need for a new client optimized for >>> X (where X in (iPhone, Pre, Android, Nokia S60, Xbox, netbooks, wii, >>> commodore 64, whatever!)) -- zero server-side rework, *ALL* the work >>> to support a new and wondrous client is client-side, EXACTLY as logic >>> dictates it SHOULD be. >> >> That is a very good argument. >> >>> Get THAT going with your Django, Rails, &c server-heavy views peppered >>> with just enough Javascript to be dangerous, will you...;-) >> >> I'm cool with building a RESTful service. ?It's just that the >> consensus on my blog has very strongly been that it's better to >> generate most of your HTML on the server because the browser really >> can't cope with extremely heavy usage of building the UI via DOM calls >> or innerHTML calls. ?My favorite example of a RIA is Gmail, and even >> it is remarkably simple compared to something like YouTube :-/ >> >> Thanks for your comments, by the way :-D >> >> -jj >> >> -- >> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things >> with great love. -- Mother Teresa >> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ >> > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From keith at dartworks.biz Wed Aug 26 00:49:48 2009 From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:49:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090825154948.191553eb@dartworks.biz> === On Tue, 08/25, Jeff Enderwick wrote: === > a few application-dependent things to consider: > - security: what can be left on the endpoint, and how can > browser-resident code be trusted? The framework that I had mentioned previously does take security into consideration. It allows you to serve subtrees of the URL path from different FCGI servers, each running as a different process with possibly different user accounts and privileges. Browser code cannot be trusted, of course. But it is mostly the UI code. That also enhances security since you are running less code on the server side. The server just has to validate the JSON-serialized data. > - support & test: can you debug your app when things are going wrong > at the endpoint, and what is the test impact for N browsers? It's more robust since an occasional crash of the client code in the browser affects one user, a server crash effects many users. That model does require a lot of testing. Fortunately, modern browsers are finally converging on more standardized technologies which makes support easier. > - "The browser just can't hack it": when writing and debugging JS, it > is not unusual for me to see FF or Safari lockup or crash 5-10 times > in a day. Yeah, I'm makin' bugs, but the browser is not likely as > robust an execution environment as that which you're using on the > server. Again, better to have the client crash than the server, anyway. Pushing more functionality out to the client also scales better. This is one major reason that Google developed Chrome, it is a faster, more rubust browser for exactly these types of applications. -- Keith Dart -- -- -------------------- Keith Dart ======================= From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Aug 26 01:14:50 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:14:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090825231450.GA419@panix.com> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009, Alex Martelli wrote: > > Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's > browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits > give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is > running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof > -- scalability's a given now. > > You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you > are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, > SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your > server, the better. Thank you for locking me out of your application. Signed, still using Lynx -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I support family values -- Addams family values" --www.nancybuttons.com From jon at inklesspen.com Wed Aug 26 01:23:01 2009 From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:23:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <20090825231450.GA419@panix.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <20090825231450.GA419@panix.com> Message-ID: <3D0996F1-31DA-4B94-A870-CEF70D5D5CE3@inklesspen.com> On Aug 25, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Thu, Aug 20, 2009, Alex Martelli wrote: >> >> Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's >> browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits >> give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is >> running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof >> -- scalability's a given now. >> >> You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you >> are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, >> SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your >> server, the better. > > Thank you for locking me out of your application. > > Signed, still using Lynx Not really a problem if the application is one that already requires such UI touches as drag-n-drop or the speed of Comet. I mean, yeah, I use Lynx from time to time. But there's a difference between going riding at the country club when it's convenient and fun, and trying to cross the continent with your horse-drawn cart. From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Aug 26 01:38:42 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:38:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <3D0996F1-31DA-4B94-A870-CEF70D5D5CE3@inklesspen.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <20090825231450.GA419@panix.com> <3D0996F1-31DA-4B94-A870-CEF70D5D5CE3@inklesspen.com> Message-ID: <20090825233842.GA17076@panix.com> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009, Jon Rosebaugh wrote: > > I mean, yeah, I use Lynx from time to time. But there's a difference > between going riding at the country club when it's convenient and fun, > and trying to cross the continent with your horse-drawn cart. My now-ancient .sig probably still applies: I surf faster than you do, monkey boy. (My take on Netscape vs. Lynx) The problem is that very few JavaScript applications support a usable keyboard interface. As long as they support a minimal HTML interface that works with Lynx, I'm good -- and I'm probably faster than you are. Of course, if your application really is a GUI app (such as Google Maps), by all means restrict your UI to JavaScript-enabled browsers. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I support family values -- Addams family values" --www.nancybuttons.com From paulcarduner at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 02:56:16 2009 From: paulcarduner at gmail.com (Paul Carduner) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:56:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-drive Message-ID: <298f38cf0908251756r46f1948cy80d59e72cd82fba3@mail.gmail.com> I'm really enjoying reading this discussion. People are raising good points for both sides and it seems like everyone agrees that client side apps using new technologies like Google gears are highly scalable, have a good user experience, and are generally really cool. And if everyone is using the latest web browsers, reliability and compatibility are less of an issue. If you're a publicly traded web technology company, you should probably be focusing your efforts on pushing the boundaries of rich client side applications, and doing whatever it takes to get there, including building new web browsers from scratch and developing Java to JavaScript compilers. But what about the small guys that don't have a ton of money and man power to invest in changing the web landscape? >From a bang for the buck perspective does it make sense for small startups to jump onto the RIA bandwagon? Developing web apps in RoR or Django with ORMs is a good way to get something that works out the door quickly (learning time included). Can someone convince me that the same is true for a JavaScript framework like Dojo? Are there any good examples of client heavy applications out there that were built quickly and cheaply? On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 4:38 PM, wrote: > From: Jeff Enderwick > To: Alex Martelli > Cc: Baypiggies > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, > ? ? ? ?Server-driven vs. Client-driven > Message-ID: > ? ? ? ? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > a few application-dependent things to consider: > - security: what can be left on the endpoint, and how can > browser-resident code be trusted? > - support & test: can you debug your app when things are going wrong > at the endpoint, and what is the test impact for N browsers? > - "The browser just can't hack it": when writing and debugging JS, it > is not unusual for me to see FF or Safari lockup or crash 5-10 times > in a day. Yeah, I'm makin' bugs, but the browser is not likely as > robust an execution environment as that which you're using on the > server. > > $.02 > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: >> "The browser just can't hack it" may be true if you do have to care >> intensely for a certain kind of demographics -- the "if IE6 was good >> enough for my gramps it's good enough for me" folks (some >> ridiculously-late-adopters, some trapped in Dilbertian enterprises >> where IT's key role is denying services and making every employee >> miserable). >> >> If your main audience is folks smart enough to use Chrome, FF 3.5, >> Safari 4, etc, or even I suspect IE8 (have not benchmarked the latter >> myself), the argument loses validity. >> >> "The database is the bottleneck": maybe, if you're stuck in the >> slowsand of relational DBs (especially inferior ones, and/or with the >> "Vietnam of CS", ORMs, rather than well-tuned and hand-optimized SQL >> on a serious engine, such as PostgreSQL, Oracle, MS Server, IBM DB2, >> ..., with a real DBA, not a programmer-making-believe-they're-a-DBA, >> overseeing it). Much as I love relational, I suspect (and wish it >> wasn't so, believe me) that the future of scalability is with >> key/value stores such as Google's bigtable, CouchDB, etc, etc. AND >> those are especially suited to dirt-simple, cruddy operations -- >> definitely NOT the place to site any business logic (beyond "as >> minimal as you can get away with" indispensable data integrity checks >> to avoid DB pollution). >> >> Modern browsers (including any with Gears on them;-) let you store >> data locally -- so your DB load should also get lighter that way (you >> probably do eventually want a central copy of lots of stuff, as a >> backup and to enable users to switch browsers and computers with ease, >> but that can mostly happen asynchronously, if and when feasible, on a >> best-effort basis)... as long as you do have as much as feasible of >> the logic _close to the data_. If you insist on keeping most all logic >> centralized, if you're deliberately choosing an inferior architecture >> to support IE6 folks, you're doing so at the detriment of the smart >> users to which you could offer a vastly superior UX. And remember, >> with frameworks such as Dojo or jQuery, you won't be completely >> cutting off the dinosaurs -- the site or app will just be slow and >> clunky for them (and if they're on IE6, they're _used_ to slow and >> clunky anyway;-). >> >> >> Alex >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: >>>> I do suggest you get a broader range of opinions >>> >>> I am. ?A bunch of people read my blog, and I asked the SF Ruby mailing >>> list too :) >>> >>>> -- baypiggies' a >>>> self-selected sample of rabid fans of Python, after all. So for >>>> example I'd expect strong support for dojo, by far the most Pythonic >>>> of the best-known Javascript frameworks (Alex Russell enthused about >>>> it when I went to have my copy of "Dojo, the definitive guide" signed >>>> by him -- he's a Python in a Nutshell fan and very deliberately took >>>> dojo design principles as his guideline, wherever feasible, to design >>>> Dojo. So: modular, explicit, no altering builtins, no black magic >>>> behind the scenes, etc, etc. >>>> >>>> Ask Ruby people, PHP people, etc, etc, and you'll get samples with >>>> different biases; jQuery will be very popular, I suspect. Ask >>>> self-selected early adopters of not (yet?) very popular technology, >>>> and you'll get the Ext guys, the mochikit ones, the mootools ones, >>>> etc, etc. Ask a Cobol crowd, they'll probably say Prototype;-). >>> >>> So far the consensus is 75% for jQuery and 25% for YUI. ?Three of the >>> UIs I like the best are written in YUI, which is a strong testament. >>> >>>> Now to the core issue, this is one argument ?I made (improvised, but >>>> the more I think about it the more it looks like my off-the-cuff >>>> intuition was sound this time) at OSCON's "open source web languages" >>>> panel... which had nobody defending Javascript (Python, Ruby, PHP, >>>> Java and Perl were the 5 "debaters"), so I took that mantle on myself >>>> (double-timing Python;-). >>>> >>>> Everybody dreams of Scalability... the dream problem to have: millions >>>> are hitting your website, how are you going to cope? >>>> >>>> Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's >>>> browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits >>>> give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is >>>> running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof >>>> -- scalability's a given now. >>> >>> The problem is, unless you're writing a Web app that doesn't store any >>> data, you still have to talk to a central server--the DB is still the >>> bottleneck. ?A lot of JS people are complaining that by putting too >>> much responsibility on the browser, the browser can't keep up. ?The >>> browser was falling over when Freebase took this approach. ?I can >>> always buy more servers, but I can't do anything if the user's machine >>> is overloaded. ?This, apparently, is a big problem with animations >>> these days. >>> >>>> You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you >>>> are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, >>>> SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your >>>> server, the better. >>>> >>>> So, making your server a REST / CRUD webservice (or something close to >>>> that but with a bit less hypertext navigation and a bit more URIs >>>> being put together client-side, actually;-), and putting all logic on >>>> the client (in JS + Dojo) save what's needed to guarantee data >>>> integrity server-side (as clients could turn malicious!-), is the >>>> right general approach to the architecture. >>> >>> I 100% agree with you in theory, and 85% disagree with you in practice >>> based on the experience of everyone I keep talking to about that >>> approach. ?Browsers just aren't as awesome as we'd like them to be. >>> >>>> BTW, don't bother serving dojo itself (or jquery etc) -- use Google's >>>> URLs for the JS framework you use (or AOL's, whatever!-). >>> >>> Agreed. >>> >>>> Yeah, that >>>> limits you to reasonably popular frameworks, but, like the syllable >>>> and scansion limits in haikus or sonnets, that's GOOD for you!-). >>> >>> Agreed. >>> >>>> You >>>> save bandwidth &c that's giving you zero added value: great ROI!-) >>> >>> Best of all, that stuff is probably already cached in the user's browser. >>> >>>> So that's one argument for "thin server architecture" (TSA: except >>>> that some heretics consider that implies XML payloads, while I think >>>> that anybody not using JSON payloads ought to get their heads >>>> examined, but that's a different jihad!!!-). >>> >>> Couldn't agree more. ?When XML first became popular (aka overhyped), I >>> kept saying, "Yeah, but I can do the same thing with Python data >>> structures", which as you know is almost exactly the same as JSON. >>> >>>> There are others, and >>>> you've heard most of them, JJ. >>>> >>>> The incredible huge payoff of "thin server" comes when suddenly the >>>> business side people spring up the need for a new client optimized for >>>> X (where X in (iPhone, Pre, Android, Nokia S60, Xbox, netbooks, wii, >>>> commodore 64, whatever!)) -- zero server-side rework, *ALL* the work >>>> to support a new and wondrous client is client-side, EXACTLY as logic >>>> dictates it SHOULD be. >>> >>> That is a very good argument. >>> >>>> Get THAT going with your Django, Rails, &c server-heavy views peppered >>>> with just enough Javascript to be dangerous, will you...;-) >>> >>> I'm cool with building a RESTful service. ?It's just that the >>> consensus on my blog has very strongly been that it's better to >>> generate most of your HTML on the server because the browser really >>> can't cope with extremely heavy usage of building the UI via DOM calls >>> or innerHTML calls. ?My favorite example of a RIA is Gmail, and even >>> it is remarkably simple compared to something like YouTube :-/ >>> >>> Thanks for your comments, by the way :-D >>> >>> -jj >>> >>> -- >>> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things >>> with great love. -- Mother Teresa >>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ >>> -- Paul Carduner http://www.carduner.net From cappy2112 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 06:08:03 2009 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 21:08:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th Message-ID: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> I'm sorry to have to bail on everyone, but we are having serious problems at my place of work, which is likely to require me to work later than expected this week. There's a good chance I won't be able to show up Thursday, so I'm hoping some good soul can put together a presentation to cover for me. As an added incentive, I'll buy the presenter a dinner at his/her place of choice. Would someone mind filling in for me this Thursday night? Thank You! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From annaraven at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 07:26:03 2009 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:26:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Would Joe be available to present with Alex on Design Patterns in Python? On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > I'm sorry to have to bail on everyone, but we are having serious problems at > my place of work, which is likely to require me to work later than expected > this week. > There's a good chance I won't be able to show up Thursday, so I'm hoping > some good soul can put together a presentation to cover for me. > > As an added incentive, I'll buy the presenter a dinner at his/her place of > choice. > > > Would someone mind filling in for me this Thursday night? > > > Thank You! > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- cordially, Anna -- I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater! From annaraven at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 07:30:58 2009 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:30:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Isn't a PyGame Week coming up? Can someone talk about that? Alex is willing to give his talk on technical management, if folks haven't seen that one. Hope things work out at work Tony! On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > Would Joe be available to present with Alex on Design Patterns in Python? > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: >> >> I'm sorry to have to bail on everyone, but we are having serious problems at >> my place of work, which is likely to require me to work later than expected >> this week. >> There's a good chance I won't be able to show up Thursday, so I'm hoping >> some good soul can put together a presentation to cover for me. >> >> As an added incentive, I'll buy the presenter a dinner at his/her place of >> choice. >> >> >> Would someone mind filling in for me this Thursday night? >> >> >> Thank You! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > > -- > cordially, > Anna > -- > I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater! > -- cordially, Anna -- I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater! From aleax at google.com Wed Aug 26 07:47:18 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:47:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > Isn't a PyGame Week coming up? Can someone talk about that? > > Alex is willing to give his talk on technical management, if folks > haven't seen that one. I'm happy to give a talk on any subject I haven't yet covered at Baypiggies: the problem is only with finding out what subject I _haven't_ done at BP yet!-) I've been around the Bay Area for 4+ years and have spoken at BP quite often, after all;-). I do believe I've never given my "tech management" talk there, and that's a deep one that I can spin in a bazillion ways, though not very Python-specific. Have I done "dependency injection" at BP? "Somewhat Advanced Python" (bytecode disassembly, hacks &c)? Code Reviews for Fun and Profit? Py3K? etc, etc. Preparing a new from-scratch preso in 40 hours is a stretch (since I do also have semi-emergencies going on at work), but tailoring any existing one (on a subject I _haven't_ already covered at BP!!!-) would be just fine. So can somebody pls let me know ASAP so I get off stackoverflow.com (currently my biggest "free time" timesink;-) and switch to tailoring a BP preso? TIA!-) Alex From annaraven at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 07:48:48 2009 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:48:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't think you did Code Reviews at BayPiggies. That's a good talk. On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: >> Isn't a PyGame Week coming up? Can someone talk about that? >> >> Alex is willing to give his talk on technical management, if folks >> haven't seen that one. > > I'm happy to give a talk on any subject I haven't yet covered at > Baypiggies: the problem is only with finding out what subject I > _haven't_ done at BP yet!-) ?I've been around the Bay Area for 4+ > years and have spoken at BP quite often, after all;-). > > I do believe I've never given my "tech management" talk there, and > that's a deep one that I can spin in a bazillion ways, though not very > Python-specific. Have I done "dependency injection" at BP? ?"Somewhat > Advanced Python" (bytecode disassembly, hacks &c)? ?Code Reviews for > Fun and Profit? ?Py3K? ?etc, etc. > > Preparing a new from-scratch preso in 40 hours is a stretch (since I > do also have semi-emergencies going on at work), but tailoring any > existing one (on a subject I _haven't_ already covered at BP!!!-) > would be just fine. > > So can somebody pls let me know ASAP so I get off stackoverflow.com > (currently my biggest "free time" timesink;-) and switch to tailoring > a BP preso? ?TIA!-) > > > Alex > -- cordially, Anna -- I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater! From wescpy at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 08:27:22 2009 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 23:27:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <78b3a9580908252327x4e54d5c0x493aac17d4eb09c5@mail.gmail.com> > Would someone mind filling in for me this Thursday night? i was considering doing my Python 2 & 3 talk that i gave at ACCU a few weeks ago, but i'm not sure i can make the meeting either as my in-laws are arriving tomorrow nite. hope alex or someone else can fill in. -- wes - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Python Web Development with Django", Addison Wesley, (c) 2009 http://withdjango.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 09:20:11 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:20:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > I do believe I've never given my "tech management" talk there, and +1 > that's a deep one that I can spin in a bazillion ways, though not very > Python-specific. Have I done "dependency injection" at BP? +1 > ?"Somewhat > Advanced Python" (bytecode disassembly, hacks &c)? +1 >?Code Reviews for > Fun and Profit? +1 > Py3K? ?etc, etc. 0 Best Regards, -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 09:32:45 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:32:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-drive In-Reply-To: <298f38cf0908251756r46f1948cy80d59e72cd82fba3@mail.gmail.com> References: <298f38cf0908251756r46f1948cy80d59e72cd82fba3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm still debating that question myself, but to answer your question, Zimbra comes to mind: http://www.zimbra.com/zcs_exchange2/?utm_source=google+network&utm_medium=ppc+exchange1&utm_campaign=exchange_test_2&gclid=CJzNpJTlwJwCFRMUagodiXDwnA My wife has always managed our checkbook without the help of any accounting software. However, that changed when mint.com came out. The user experience was so compellingly amazing, she became a heavy user. Consider: who uses MapQuest anymore, when you can use Google Maps? Of course, we all have to struggle with what we can do within the time allotted. My company can't afford a front end person or a DBA, so I have to do both. I'd like to give Flex or Pyjamas a shot, but I'll have to stick with jQuery for now. I'd like to switch to PostgreSQL, but I don't know it well enough (I've read "High Performance MySQL", but don't even know how to setup PostgreSQL at all). We do what we can do. Happy Hacking! -jj On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Paul Carduner wrote: > I'm really enjoying reading this discussion. ?People are raising good > points for both sides and it seems like everyone agrees that client > side apps using new technologies like Google gears are highly > scalable, have a good user experience, and are generally really cool. > And if everyone is using the latest web browsers, reliability and > compatibility are less of an issue. > > If you're a publicly traded web technology company, you should > probably be focusing your efforts on pushing the boundaries of rich > client side applications, and doing whatever it takes to get there, > including building new web browsers from scratch and developing Java > to JavaScript compilers. ?But what about the small guys that don't > have a ton of money and man power to invest in changing the web > landscape? > > >From a bang for the buck perspective does it make sense for small > startups to jump onto the RIA bandwagon? ?Developing web apps in RoR > or Django with ORMs is a good way to get something that works out the > door quickly (learning time included). ?Can someone convince me that > the same is true for a JavaScript framework like Dojo? ?Are there any > good examples of client heavy applications out there that were built > quickly and cheaply? > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 4:38 PM, wrote: >> From: Jeff Enderwick >> To: Alex Martelli >> Cc: Baypiggies >> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, >> ? ? ? ?Server-driven vs. Client-driven >> Message-ID: >> ? ? ? ? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> a few application-dependent things to consider: >> - security: what can be left on the endpoint, and how can >> browser-resident code be trusted? >> - support & test: can you debug your app when things are going wrong >> at the endpoint, and what is the test impact for N browsers? >> - "The browser just can't hack it": when writing and debugging JS, it >> is not unusual for me to see FF or Safari lockup or crash 5-10 times >> in a day. Yeah, I'm makin' bugs, but the browser is not likely as >> robust an execution environment as that which you're using on the >> server. >> >> $.02 >> >> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: >>> "The browser just can't hack it" may be true if you do have to care >>> intensely for a certain kind of demographics -- the "if IE6 was good >>> enough for my gramps it's good enough for me" folks (some >>> ridiculously-late-adopters, some trapped in Dilbertian enterprises >>> where IT's key role is denying services and making every employee >>> miserable). >>> >>> If your main audience is folks smart enough to use Chrome, FF 3.5, >>> Safari 4, etc, or even I suspect IE8 (have not benchmarked the latter >>> myself), the argument loses validity. >>> >>> "The database is the bottleneck": maybe, if you're stuck in the >>> slowsand of relational DBs (especially inferior ones, and/or with the >>> "Vietnam of CS", ORMs, rather than well-tuned and hand-optimized SQL >>> on a serious engine, such as PostgreSQL, Oracle, MS Server, IBM DB2, >>> ..., with a real DBA, not a programmer-making-believe-they're-a-DBA, >>> overseeing it). Much as I love relational, I suspect (and wish it >>> wasn't so, believe me) that the future of scalability is with >>> key/value stores such as Google's bigtable, CouchDB, etc, etc. AND >>> those are especially suited to dirt-simple, cruddy operations -- >>> definitely NOT the place to site any business logic (beyond "as >>> minimal as you can get away with" indispensable data integrity checks >>> to avoid DB pollution). >>> >>> Modern browsers (including any with Gears on them;-) let you store >>> data locally -- so your DB load should also get lighter that way (you >>> probably do eventually want a central copy of lots of stuff, as a >>> backup and to enable users to switch browsers and computers with ease, >>> but that can mostly happen asynchronously, if and when feasible, on a >>> best-effort basis)... as long as you do have as much as feasible of >>> the logic _close to the data_. If you insist on keeping most all logic >>> centralized, if you're deliberately choosing an inferior architecture >>> to support IE6 folks, you're doing so at the detriment of the smart >>> users to which you could offer a vastly superior UX. And remember, >>> with frameworks such as Dojo or jQuery, you won't be completely >>> cutting off the dinosaurs -- the site or app will just be slow and >>> clunky for them (and if they're on IE6, they're _used_ to slow and >>> clunky anyway;-). >>> >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >>>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: >>>>> I do suggest you get a broader range of opinions >>>> >>>> I am. ?A bunch of people read my blog, and I asked the SF Ruby mailing >>>> list too :) >>>> >>>>> -- baypiggies' a >>>>> self-selected sample of rabid fans of Python, after all. So for >>>>> example I'd expect strong support for dojo, by far the most Pythonic >>>>> of the best-known Javascript frameworks (Alex Russell enthused about >>>>> it when I went to have my copy of "Dojo, the definitive guide" signed >>>>> by him -- he's a Python in a Nutshell fan and very deliberately took >>>>> dojo design principles as his guideline, wherever feasible, to design >>>>> Dojo. So: modular, explicit, no altering builtins, no black magic >>>>> behind the scenes, etc, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Ask Ruby people, PHP people, etc, etc, and you'll get samples with >>>>> different biases; jQuery will be very popular, I suspect. Ask >>>>> self-selected early adopters of not (yet?) very popular technology, >>>>> and you'll get the Ext guys, the mochikit ones, the mootools ones, >>>>> etc, etc. Ask a Cobol crowd, they'll probably say Prototype;-). >>>> >>>> So far the consensus is 75% for jQuery and 25% for YUI. ?Three of the >>>> UIs I like the best are written in YUI, which is a strong testament. >>>> >>>>> Now to the core issue, this is one argument ?I made (improvised, but >>>>> the more I think about it the more it looks like my off-the-cuff >>>>> intuition was sound this time) at OSCON's "open source web languages" >>>>> panel... which had nobody defending Javascript (Python, Ruby, PHP, >>>>> Java and Perl were the 5 "debaters"), so I took that mantle on myself >>>>> (double-timing Python;-). >>>>> >>>>> Everybody dreams of Scalability... the dream problem to have: millions >>>>> are hitting your website, how are you going to cope? >>>>> >>>>> Well if all of your processing was in Javascript on the user's >>>>> browser, scalability would be automatic, wouldn't it? A million hits >>>>> give you a million PCs in which (through the browser) your web app is >>>>> running; two million hits, you get 2 million PCs; and so forth. Poof >>>>> -- scalability's a given now. >>>> >>>> The problem is, unless you're writing a Web app that doesn't store any >>>> data, you still have to talk to a central server--the DB is still the >>>> bottleneck. ?A lot of JS people are complaining that by putting too >>>> much responsibility on the browser, the browser can't keep up. ?The >>>> browser was falling over when Freebase took this approach. ?I can >>>> always buy more servers, but I can't do anything if the user's machine >>>> is overloaded. ?This, apparently, is a big problem with animations >>>> these days. >>>> >>>>> You can't get 100%, but clearly the closer you get the better off you >>>>> are. So, anything that CAN sensibly be done in JS in users' browsers, >>>>> SHOULD be done there! The less you have to keep running on your >>>>> server, the better. >>>>> >>>>> So, making your server a REST / CRUD webservice (or something close to >>>>> that but with a bit less hypertext navigation and a bit more URIs >>>>> being put together client-side, actually;-), and putting all logic on >>>>> the client (in JS + Dojo) save what's needed to guarantee data >>>>> integrity server-side (as clients could turn malicious!-), is the >>>>> right general approach to the architecture. >>>> >>>> I 100% agree with you in theory, and 85% disagree with you in practice >>>> based on the experience of everyone I keep talking to about that >>>> approach. ?Browsers just aren't as awesome as we'd like them to be. >>>> >>>>> BTW, don't bother serving dojo itself (or jquery etc) -- use Google's >>>>> URLs for the JS framework you use (or AOL's, whatever!-). >>>> >>>> Agreed. >>>> >>>>> Yeah, that >>>>> limits you to reasonably popular frameworks, but, like the syllable >>>>> and scansion limits in haikus or sonnets, that's GOOD for you!-). >>>> >>>> Agreed. >>>> >>>>> You >>>>> save bandwidth &c that's giving you zero added value: great ROI!-) >>>> >>>> Best of all, that stuff is probably already cached in the user's browser. >>>> >>>>> So that's one argument for "thin server architecture" (TSA: except >>>>> that some heretics consider that implies XML payloads, while I think >>>>> that anybody not using JSON payloads ought to get their heads >>>>> examined, but that's a different jihad!!!-). >>>> >>>> Couldn't agree more. ?When XML first became popular (aka overhyped), I >>>> kept saying, "Yeah, but I can do the same thing with Python data >>>> structures", which as you know is almost exactly the same as JSON. >>>> >>>>> There are others, and >>>>> you've heard most of them, JJ. >>>>> >>>>> The incredible huge payoff of "thin server" comes when suddenly the >>>>> business side people spring up the need for a new client optimized for >>>>> X (where X in (iPhone, Pre, Android, Nokia S60, Xbox, netbooks, wii, >>>>> commodore 64, whatever!)) -- zero server-side rework, *ALL* the work >>>>> to support a new and wondrous client is client-side, EXACTLY as logic >>>>> dictates it SHOULD be. >>>> >>>> That is a very good argument. >>>> >>>>> Get THAT going with your Django, Rails, &c server-heavy views peppered >>>>> with just enough Javascript to be dangerous, will you...;-) >>>> >>>> I'm cool with building a RESTful service. ?It's just that the >>>> consensus on my blog has very strongly been that it's better to >>>> generate most of your HTML on the server because the browser really >>>> can't cope with extremely heavy usage of building the UI via DOM calls >>>> or innerHTML calls. ?My favorite example of a RIA is Gmail, and even >>>> it is remarkably simple compared to something like YouTube :-/ >>>> >>>> Thanks for your comments, by the way :-D >>>> >>>> -jj >>>> >>>> -- >>>> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things >>>> with great love. -- Mother Teresa >>>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ >>>> > > > -- > Paul Carduner > http://www.carduner.net > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From mrbmahoney at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 15:26:14 2009 From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 06:26:14 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5538c19b0908260626y3b8b286agcff77f72eb58bfd7@mail.gmail.com> It appears that you have a replacement, but I am looking forward to your WxPython talk in the future. On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > I'm sorry to have to bail on everyone, but we are having serious problems > at my place of work, which is likely to require me to work later than > expected this week. > There's a good chance I won't be able to show up Thursday, so I'm hoping > some good soul can put together a presentation to cover for me. > > As an added incentive, I'll buy the presenter a dinner at his/her place of > choice. > > > Would someone mind filling in for me this Thursday night? > > > Thank You! > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Wed Aug 26 15:55:05 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 06:55:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1251294905.7840.29.camel@jim-laptop> the management talk seems the best choice for us, given our choices. if you confirm (some talk, any talk), you're on, with thanks and a free dinner for two (arrangements to be made some time in the future, possibly the next hour or two). jim On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 22:47 -0700, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > Isn't a PyGame Week coming up? Can someone talk about that? > > > > Alex is willing to give his talk on technical management, if folks > > haven't seen that one. > > I'm happy to give a talk on any subject I haven't yet covered at > Baypiggies: the problem is only with finding out what subject I > _haven't_ done at BP yet!-) I've been around the Bay Area for 4+ > years and have spoken at BP quite often, after all;-). > > I do believe I've never given my "tech management" talk there, and > that's a deep one that I can spin in a bazillion ways, though not very > Python-specific. Have I done "dependency injection" at BP? "Somewhat > Advanced Python" (bytecode disassembly, hacks &c)? Code Reviews for > Fun and Profit? Py3K? etc, etc. > > Preparing a new from-scratch preso in 40 hours is a stretch (since I > do also have semi-emergencies going on at work), but tailoring any > existing one (on a subject I _haven't_ already covered at BP!!!-) > would be just fine. > > So can somebody pls let me know ASAP so I get off stackoverflow.com > (currently my biggest "free time" timesink;-) and switch to tailoring > a BP preso? TIA!-) > > > Alex > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From cappy2112 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 16:19:37 2009 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 07:19:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <5538c19b0908260626y3b8b286agcff77f72eb58bfd7@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> <5538c19b0908260626y3b8b286agcff77f72eb58bfd7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0908260719y35a144afxa11aad9d9df3261@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Brian. It looks like Sept & Oct are already booked, but we still haven't voted on whether or not to have meetings in Nov & Dec. I'm willing to do the presentation in the future though, On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 6:26 AM, Brian Mahoney wrote: > It appears that you have a replacement, but I am looking forward to your > WxPython talk in the future. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > >> >> I'm sorry to have to bail on everyone, but we are having serious problems >> at my place of work, which is likely to require me to work later than >> expected this week. >> There's a good chance I won't be able to show up Thursday, so I'm hoping >> some good soul can put together a presentation to cover for me. >> >> As an added incentive, I'll buy the presenter a dinner at his/her place of >> choice. >> >> >> Would someone mind filling in for me this Thursday night? >> >> >> Thank You! >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Wed Aug 26 16:32:44 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 07:32:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] If it helps with Thurs night... Message-ID: <26482FA2-5EAA-4120-96C8-4599D0F37B28@glenjarvis.com> I just taught a class last night on Subversion... it's been several years since I taught and I forgot just how downright fun it is... Only a year ago I was "freaking out" when I saw a "G" flag when updating files (afraid of a conflict). I remember a fellow BayPIGgie member laughing (amiably) saying "G is for Good Glen." :) The class I taught was two hours long and for the very beginner. But, I seriously doubt that this is a full topic for us. However, it's a possibly newbie nugget (only if we have newbies who don't know how to use subversion). We started with diff and patch conceptually.. diff'd two files, shipped the 'diff' to a customer (another student) and patched, etc. Then, using those core concepts, we talked about how subversion works, from the very beginning (checking out files), to multiple editing, conflict resolution, branches, tags, trunk, etc. We only briefly talked about merging branches... Let me know if there's any interest at all.... Cheers, Glen From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Aug 26 16:55:16 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 07:55:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] If it helps with Thurs night... In-Reply-To: <26482FA2-5EAA-4120-96C8-4599D0F37B28@glenjarvis.com> References: <26482FA2-5EAA-4120-96C8-4599D0F37B28@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <20090826145516.GD21045@panix.com> On Wed, Aug 26, 2009, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > I just taught a class last night on Subversion... it's been several > years since I taught and I forgot just how downright fun it is... This would be a good idea if Python development were done in SVN. Actually, it currently is, but core Python development is switching to Mercurial, so it would be only a short-term benefit. I'm not opposed to an SVN tutorial, I just think that a Mercurial tutorial would overall be more relevant. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I support family values -- Addams family values" --www.nancybuttons.com From bdbaddog at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 18:36:51 2009 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 09:36:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <1251294905.7840.29.camel@jim-laptop> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> <1251294905.7840.29.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <8540148a0908260936j3cd3c2c9u1c8f7ef2a18ed65c@mail.gmail.com> Alex, Can you provide a small blurb about the Management Talk and I'll update the website. -Bill On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 6:55 AM, jim wrote: > > the management talk seems the best choice for us, > given our choices. if you confirm (some talk, any > talk), you're on, with thanks and a free dinner for > two (arrangements to be made some time in the future, > possibly the next hour or two). > jim > > > > On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 22:47 -0700, Alex Martelli wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft > wrote: > > > Isn't a PyGame Week coming up? Can someone talk about that? > > > > > > Alex is willing to give his talk on technical management, if folks > > > haven't seen that one. > > > > I'm happy to give a talk on any subject I haven't yet covered at > > Baypiggies: the problem is only with finding out what subject I > > _haven't_ done at BP yet!-) I've been around the Bay Area for 4+ > > years and have spoken at BP quite often, after all;-). > > > > I do believe I've never given my "tech management" talk there, and > > that's a deep one that I can spin in a bazillion ways, though not very > > Python-specific. Have I done "dependency injection" at BP? "Somewhat > > Advanced Python" (bytecode disassembly, hacks &c)? Code Reviews for > > Fun and Profit? Py3K? etc, etc. > > > > Preparing a new from-scratch preso in 40 hours is a stretch (since I > > do also have semi-emergencies going on at work), but tailoring any > > existing one (on a subject I _haven't_ already covered at BP!!!-) > > would be just fine. > > > > So can somebody pls let me know ASAP so I get off stackoverflow.com > > (currently my biggest "free time" timesink;-) and switch to tailoring > > a BP preso? TIA!-) > > > > > > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roderick at sanfransystems.com Wed Aug 26 19:27:02 2009 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:27:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Sever vs Client References: Message-ID: This is an extremely old debate, only the technologies change. It was once referred to as the "wheel of kharma"... at time t0 centralized computing is all you have, then the center is overloaded so some processing is pushed away from the center at time t1 (for example, in the original IBM 360 mainframe, they introduced "channels" which were I/O computers basically, with programs running in them), then control gets lost and management wants to centralize everything so at time t2 things move back from the center (remember Sun's diskless nodes and all that? and how at one time printers were extremely expensive and how a lot of early corporate networks (like Sun's NFS) were largely designed to share printers), and the wheel keeps turning. I think there will be an endless juggling of services back and forth between central and distributed systems. Each "central" computer these days is practically becoming a mesh anyway. That being said, there will always be far more client computers than servers so anything that can be offloaded to clients increases scalability as has been already mentioned. Eventually we'll all have something like contact lenses that are themselves computers and can project any images we want. A really good science-fiction book about this is Vernor Vinge's "Rainbow's End"... he captures a possible 20-year in the future possibility for distributed computing without making absurd claims for its power. - Rod L. From aleax at google.com Wed Aug 26 19:45:35 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:45:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <8540148a0908260936j3cd3c2c9u1c8f7ef2a18ed65c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> <1251294905.7840.29.camel@jim-laptop> <8540148a0908260936j3cd3c2c9u1c8f7ef2a18ed65c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0908261045p6f843cb6ye8c7e61bdbaca792@mail.gmail.com> Here's a blurb, I hope it's about the right length...: """ Managing software development projects can benefit from some approaches that are rather different from most traditional management techniques. Software developers operate with their own particular mindset, culture and reward system. To motivate and inspire a top programming team, one type of ideal manager is a technical peer who can jump into the code and work hands-on, together with the developers, to solve thorny problems. Such technical involvement can keep a project moving forward and help the manager build credibility and trust within the team. In this talk, Alex Martelli discusses some common management myths, and shares some immediately useful advice for anyone involved in managing software development projects. """ Alex On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 9:36 AM, William Deegan wrote: > Alex, > > Can you provide a small blurb about the Management Talk and I'll update the > website. > > -Bill > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 6:55 AM, jim wrote: >> >> ? the management talk seems the best choice for us, >> given our choices. if you confirm (some talk, any >> talk), you're on, with thanks and a free dinner for >> two (arrangements to be made some time in the future, >> possibly the next hour or two). >> jim >> >> >> >> On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 22:47 -0700, Alex Martelli wrote: >> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft >> > wrote: >> > > Isn't a PyGame Week coming up? Can someone talk about that? >> > > >> > > Alex is willing to give his talk on technical management, if folks >> > > haven't seen that one. >> > >> > I'm happy to give a talk on any subject I haven't yet covered at >> > Baypiggies: the problem is only with finding out what subject I >> > _haven't_ done at BP yet!-) ?I've been around the Bay Area for 4+ >> > years and have spoken at BP quite often, after all;-). >> > >> > I do believe I've never given my "tech management" talk there, and >> > that's a deep one that I can spin in a bazillion ways, though not very >> > Python-specific. Have I done "dependency injection" at BP? ?"Somewhat >> > Advanced Python" (bytecode disassembly, hacks &c)? ?Code Reviews for >> > Fun and Profit? ?Py3K? ?etc, etc. >> > >> > Preparing a new from-scratch preso in 40 hours is a stretch (since I >> > do also have semi-emergencies going on at work), but tailoring any >> > existing one (on a subject I _haven't_ already covered at BP!!!-) >> > would be just fine. >> > >> > So can somebody pls let me know ASAP so I get off stackoverflow.com >> > (currently my biggest "free time" timesink;-) and switch to tailoring >> > a BP preso? ?TIA!-) >> > >> > >> > Alex >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Baypiggies mailing list >> > Baypiggies at python.org >> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > From bdbaddog at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 19:58:38 2009 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:58:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908261045p6f843cb6ye8c7e61bdbaca792@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> <1251294905.7840.29.camel@jim-laptop> <8540148a0908260936j3cd3c2c9u1c8f7ef2a18ed65c@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908261045p6f843cb6ye8c7e61bdbaca792@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0908261058x63b4d20aga5aa2b7a9cba9d24@mail.gmail.com> Website updated. http://baypiggies.net/index_html/eventfolder/baypiggies-meeting-August-27th-2009 -Bill On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: > Here's a blurb, I hope it's about the right length...: > > """ > Managing software development projects can benefit from some > approaches that are rather different from most traditional management > techniques. Software developers operate with their own particular > mindset, culture and reward system. To motivate and inspire a top > programming team, one type of ideal manager is a technical peer who > can jump into the code and work hands-on, together with the > developers, to solve thorny problems. Such technical involvement can > keep a project moving forward and help the manager build credibility > and trust within the team. > > In this talk, Alex Martelli discusses some common management myths, > and shares some immediately useful advice for anyone involved in > managing software development projects. > """ > > > Alex > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 9:36 AM, William Deegan wrote: > > Alex, > > > > Can you provide a small blurb about the Management Talk and I'll update > the > > website. > > > > -Bill > > > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 6:55 AM, jim wrote: > >> > >> the management talk seems the best choice for us, > >> given our choices. if you confirm (some talk, any > >> talk), you're on, with thanks and a free dinner for > >> two (arrangements to be made some time in the future, > >> possibly the next hour or two). > >> jim > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 22:47 -0700, Alex Martelli wrote: > >> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft< > annaraven at gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > Isn't a PyGame Week coming up? Can someone talk about that? > >> > > > >> > > Alex is willing to give his talk on technical management, if folks > >> > > haven't seen that one. > >> > > >> > I'm happy to give a talk on any subject I haven't yet covered at > >> > Baypiggies: the problem is only with finding out what subject I > >> > _haven't_ done at BP yet!-) I've been around the Bay Area for 4+ > >> > years and have spoken at BP quite often, after all;-). > >> > > >> > I do believe I've never given my "tech management" talk there, and > >> > that's a deep one that I can spin in a bazillion ways, though not very > >> > Python-specific. Have I done "dependency injection" at BP? "Somewhat > >> > Advanced Python" (bytecode disassembly, hacks &c)? Code Reviews for > >> > Fun and Profit? Py3K? etc, etc. > >> > > >> > Preparing a new from-scratch preso in 40 hours is a stretch (since I > >> > do also have semi-emergencies going on at work), but tailoring any > >> > existing one (on a subject I _haven't_ already covered at BP!!!-) > >> > would be just fine. > >> > > >> > So can somebody pls let me know ASAP so I get off stackoverflow.com > >> > (currently my biggest "free time" timesink;-) and switch to tailoring > >> > a BP preso? TIA!-) > >> > > >> > > >> > Alex > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Baypiggies mailing list > >> > Baypiggies at python.org > >> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Wed Aug 26 22:48:15 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:48:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a presenter for Thursday, Aug 26th In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908261045p6f843cb6ye8c7e61bdbaca792@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0908252108r71cc7a20ocb7100990d703f98@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908252247t4d375f36w49172dcebf7e46bd@mail.gmail.com> <1251294905.7840.29.camel@jim-laptop> <8540148a0908260936j3cd3c2c9u1c8f7ef2a18ed65c@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908261045p6f843cb6ye8c7e61bdbaca792@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1251319695.7840.51.camel@jim-laptop> it's great. i'll send it out in the re-announcement. bill's in charge of the web page. On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 10:45 -0700, Alex Martelli wrote: > Here's a blurb, I hope it's about the right length...: > > """ > Managing software development projects can benefit from some > approaches that are rather different from most traditional management > techniques. Software developers operate with their own particular > mindset, culture and reward system. To motivate and inspire a top > programming team, one type of ideal manager is a technical peer who > can jump into the code and work hands-on, together with the > developers, to solve thorny problems. Such technical involvement can > keep a project moving forward and help the manager build credibility > and trust within the team. > > In this talk, Alex Martelli discusses some common management myths, > and shares some immediately useful advice for anyone involved in > managing software development projects. > """ > > > Alex > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 9:36 AM, William Deegan wrote: > > Alex, > > > > Can you provide a small blurb about the Management Talk and I'll update the > > website. > > > > -Bill > > > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 6:55 AM, jim wrote: > >> > >> the management talk seems the best choice for us, > >> given our choices. if you confirm (some talk, any > >> talk), you're on, with thanks and a free dinner for > >> two (arrangements to be made some time in the future, > >> possibly the next hour or two). > >> jim > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 22:47 -0700, Alex Martelli wrote: > >> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft > >> > wrote: > >> > > Isn't a PyGame Week coming up? Can someone talk about that? > >> > > > >> > > Alex is willing to give his talk on technical management, if folks > >> > > haven't seen that one. > >> > > >> > I'm happy to give a talk on any subject I haven't yet covered at > >> > Baypiggies: the problem is only with finding out what subject I > >> > _haven't_ done at BP yet!-) I've been around the Bay Area for 4+ > >> > years and have spoken at BP quite often, after all;-). > >> > > >> > I do believe I've never given my "tech management" talk there, and > >> > that's a deep one that I can spin in a bazillion ways, though not very > >> > Python-specific. Have I done "dependency injection" at BP? "Somewhat > >> > Advanced Python" (bytecode disassembly, hacks &c)? Code Reviews for > >> > Fun and Profit? Py3K? etc, etc. > >> > > >> > Preparing a new from-scratch preso in 40 hours is a stretch (since I > >> > do also have semi-emergencies going on at work), but tailoring any > >> > existing one (on a subject I _haven't_ already covered at BP!!!-) > >> > would be just fine. > >> > > >> > So can somebody pls let me know ASAP so I get off stackoverflow.com > >> > (currently my biggest "free time" timesink;-) and switch to tailoring > >> > a BP preso? TIA!-) > >> > > >> > > >> > Alex > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Baypiggies mailing list > >> > Baypiggies at python.org > >> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > From rbowlby83 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 00:35:34 2009 From: rbowlby83 at yahoo.com (Ryan Bowlby) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] College course in bay area? Message-ID: <113634.91648.qm@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hello Everyone, Just signed up to the list so please bear with me if this question has been answered. Is there a continuing education course on Python available within approx an hours drive of Berkely? I have "Core Python Programming" but in my experience a semester of homework and a willing professor go a long way towards nudging/dragging me along. I am looking for an actual college course and not ~3day training camps, etc. Thanks so much! -Ryan B. p.s. Im aware of http://wiki.python.org/moin/SchoolsUsingPython#California and saddened if it's up-to-date. From rich.pixley at palm.com Thu Aug 27 01:27:18 2009 From: rich.pixley at palm.com (Rich Pixley) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:27:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <4A94472E.8010509@palm.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> <4A94472E.8010509@palm.com> Message-ID: <4A95C4D6.6000209@palm.com> Of course, then there are modern bits of software, like the latest webkit, running on tiny arm processors... but who cares about those, really? --rich From rich.pixley at palm.com Thu Aug 27 01:40:12 2009 From: rich.pixley at palm.com (Rich Pixley) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:40:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <4A95C4D6.6000209@palm.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> <4A94472E.8010509@palm.com> <4A95C4D6.6000209@palm.com> Message-ID: <4A95C7DC.3010307@palm.com> Er... you all do realize that there are more web browsers in mobile phones now than there are in general purpose computers, yes? Some places like Africa and India are jumping straight into smart phones and skipping even the laptop entirely. Look at OLPC, (also arm based as well as supporting python). Think about it. How many people do you know who have laptops and no desktop computer? How many have telephones? How many telephones have 3d hardware graphics accelleration or dsp processing? (Hint: Few, but everyone's working on it.) My point here is just that pushing things into the client leaves you in a very unpredictable world and radically limits your availability. If you're ok with that, or if your application absolutely requires it, then go for it. I just get tired of all of the web pages that require flash or the like just because they want to put animations on the buttons. (No mobile phone yet runs flash). --rich - who works for one of those smart phone companies. Rich Pixley wrote: > Of course, then there are modern bits of software, like the latest > webkit, running on tiny arm processors... but who cares about those, > really? > > --rich > From keith at dartworks.biz Thu Aug 27 01:57:22 2009 From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:57:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <4A95C7DC.3010307@palm.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> <4A94472E.8010509@palm.com> <4A95C4D6.6000209@palm.com> <4A95C7DC.3010307@palm.com> Message-ID: <20090826165722.44429817@dartworks.biz> === On Wed, 08/26, Rich Pixley wrote: === > Er... you all do realize that there are more web browsers in mobile Modern phone browsers can do javascript, and they don't have to be "heavyweight". The basic requirement for that model is simply that all UI/presentation be handled in the client app (browser), and servers only provide data, not markup (except for initial page load). > I just get tired of all of > the web pages that require flash or the like just because they want > to put animations on the buttons. Me too, but no one was talking about flash here. ;-) That's not a requirement for this model. Using the modern-browser model you can do a lot client-side with just javascript and CSS. That does, in fact, work even better with mobile devices since the javascript program is cached, and what goes over the network after that is minimal. > (No mobile phone yet runs flash). That's not quite true: http://androidcommunity.com/bsquare-android-flash-plugin-announced-20090630/ But... don't use it. ;-) -- Keith Dart -- -- -------------------- Keith Dart ======================= From andrew at atoulou.se Thu Aug 27 02:00:54 2009 From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andy Toulouse) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:00:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] College course in bay area? In-Reply-To: <113634.91648.qm@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <113634.91648.qm@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was a tutor for the self-paced Python class at Berkeley - CS9H. You need to be able to take classes at Berkeley, so you might not be able to take it, but you could ask if you could use the material to learn. Don't quote me on that, though. --Andy On Aug 26, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Ryan Bowlby wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > Just signed up to the list so please bear with me if this question > has been answered. Is there a continuing education course on Python > available within approx an hours drive of Berkely? > > I have "Core Python Programming" but in my experience a semester of > homework and a willing professor go a long way towards nudging/ > dragging me along. I am looking for an actual college course and not > ~3day training camps, etc. Thanks so much! > > -Ryan B. > > p.s. Im aware of http://wiki.python.org/moin/SchoolsUsingPython#California > and saddened if it's up-to-date. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From rich.pixley at palm.com Thu Aug 27 02:07:27 2009 From: rich.pixley at palm.com (Rich Pixley) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:07:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <20090826165722.44429817@dartworks.biz> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0908251120x12c2bfa6kfe27019cb358a8ef@mail.gmail.com> <4A94472E.8010509@palm.com> <4A95C4D6.6000209@palm.com> <4A95C7DC.3010307@palm.com> <20090826165722.44429817@dartworks.biz> Message-ID: <4A95CE3F.8020404@palm.com> Keith Dart wrote: > === On Wed, 08/26, Rich Pixley wrote: === > >> Er... you all do realize that there are more web browsers in mobile >> > Modern phone browsers can do javascript, and they don't have to be > "heavyweight". The basic requirement for that model is simply that all > UI/presentation be handled in the client app (browser), and servers > only provide data, not markup (except for initial page load). > Perhaps, although there's a general argument about where the workload belongs that extends beyond just javascript. >> (No mobile phone yet runs flash). >> > That's not quite true: > > http://androidcommunity.com/bsquare-android-flash-plugin-announced-20090630/ Well... how about, "no released commercial device runs flash". :). You don't want to know how many devices I've seen running flash... nor what their performance was like. Suffice to say, "everyone seems to be working on that and has been for a few years now". (Licensing is also an issue for flash). --rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Thu Aug 27 02:28:15 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:28:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: NEW: Managing Software Developers Message-ID: <1251332895.9073.10.camel@jim-laptop> BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: Managing Software Developers There's a last minute change in the BayPIGgies meeting: Alex Martelli will present his thoughts on managing a software development team. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Martelli Title: Managing Software Developers by Alex Martelli Managing software development projects can benefit from some approaches that are rather different from most traditional management techniques. Software developers operate with their own particular mindset, culture, and reward system. To motivate and inspire a top programming team, one type of ideal manager is a technical peer who can jump into the code and work hands-on, together with the developers, to solve thorny problems. Such technical involvement can keep a project moving forward and help the manager build credibility and trust within the team. In this talk, Alex Martelli discusses some common management myths, and shares some immediately useful advice for anyone involved in managing software development projects. NOTE BayPIGgies meets at the Symantec Vcafe, at Symantec's location at 350 Ellis Street in Mountain View. http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18 BayPIGgies meeting information is available at http://baypiggies.net/new/plone From glen at glenjarvis.com Thu Aug 27 02:50:23 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:50:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] College course in bay area? In-Reply-To: References: <113634.91648.qm@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Andy, We have at least four other instructors here at BayPIGgies. They do send announcements to classes and they do this quite often and professionally. Hopefully they introduce themselves to you. I've only just started planning a course very similar to what you're asking for. It's very self-paced, but we work together on assignments and you'll be assigned actual homework to 'drag you along.' It's a complete beginner's course. This one is free however, since it's a 'dry run' for me in teaching a Python course. But, you may need to supply your own laptop during class. The problem has been there's a good number of people who want to attend but who are down South. However, because the original people asking for this class are in SF and because it's a dry-first run (very informal) class, this may work for you. My course will be a complete beginners course, and will most probably be at the Civic Center Library in SF. I work at UC-Berkeley, so it'll have to be a reasonable distance for me to get there in time too... Let me know if you're interested. And, again, there are several other people who have been doing this longer and are in a college setting. I've heard a few speak and am impressed with their classroom demeanor... Regardless what you pick, you're in the right place to get help :) Cheers, Glen On Aug 26, 2009, at 5:00 PM, Andy Toulouse wrote: > I was a tutor for the self-paced Python class at Berkeley - CS9H. > You need to be able to take classes at Berkeley, so you might not > be able to take it, but you could ask if you could use the material > to learn. Don't quote me on that, though. > > --Andy > > On Aug 26, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Ryan Bowlby wrote: > >> Hello Everyone, >> >> Just signed up to the list so please bear with me if this question >> has been answered. Is there a continuing education course on >> Python available within approx an hours drive of Berkely? >> >> I have "Core Python Programming" but in my experience a semester >> of homework and a willing professor go a long way towards nudging/ >> dragging me along. I am looking for an actual college course and >> not ~3day training camps, etc. Thanks so much! >> >> -Ryan B. >> >> p.s. Im aware of http://wiki.python.org/moin/ >> SchoolsUsingPython#California and saddened if it's up-to-date. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From jjinux at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 06:30:31 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:30:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Sever vs Client In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Roderick Llewellyn wrote: > This is an extremely old debate, only the technologies change. It was once > referred to as the "wheel of kharma"... at time t0 centralized computing is > all you have, then the center is overloaded so some processing is pushed > away from the center at time t1 (for example, in the original IBM 360 > mainframe, they introduced "channels" which were I/O computers basically, > with programs running in them), then control gets lost and management wants > to centralize everything so at time t2 things move back from the center > (remember Sun's diskless nodes and all that? and how at one time printers > were extremely expensive and how a lot of early corporate networks (like > Sun's NFS) were largely designed to share printers), and the wheel keeps > turning. I think there will be an endless juggling of services back and > forth between central and distributed systems. Each "central" computer these > days is practically becoming a mesh anyway. That being said, there will > always be far more client computers than servers so anything that can be > offloaded to clients increases scalability as has been already mentioned. > Eventually we'll all have something like contact lenses that are themselves > computers and can project any images we want. A really good science-fiction > book about this is Vernor Vinge's "Rainbow's End"... he captures a possible > 20-year in the future possibility for distributed computing without making > absurd claims for its power. > - Rod L. You're not the first person to accuse me of writing the equivalent of mainframe software, nor is the history lesson lost on me! ;-) My original question was a very practical one. Given today's browsers, what's the best approach? Even though I'm usually an idealist, with web browsers, I usually stick to the *hacks* that work the best. innerHTML and XMLHttpRequest are both total hacks, but they're what makes the world move around these days. One of the other old-timers in our group, Mike Cheponis, wrote a particularly humorous anti-web rant, which I posted on my blog. It's worth reading: http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2008/06/web-best-anti-web-rant.html Happy Hacking! -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From alchaiken at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 17:48:47 2009 From: alchaiken at gmail.com (Alison Chaiken) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:48:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] College course in Bay Area Message-ID: I took the "Python for Programmers" class at UCSC Extension last fall with instructor Dilip Dedhia. http://courses.ucsc-extension.edu/ucsc/search/publicCourseSearchDetails.do?method=load&courseId=1531625 I have taken four classes with Dilip and six at UCSC extension, so obviously I find value in the offerings, but the Python course was the weakest. I definitely learned some Python programming from the course, enough to develop little widgets using PyS60 using Eclipse. On the other hand, the textbook "Guide to Programming with Python" was a bit infantile and somewhat out of date, and I suspect there's a better choice for students who are new to Python but not to programming. The course is now taught by Marilyn Davis rather than Dilip. -- Alison Chaiken (650) 279-5600 (cell) http://www.exerciseforthereader.org/ You can't bomb human knowledge. -- US Ambassador William Burns From jjinux at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 23:03:30 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:03:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] off topic: JavaScript: DOM vs. innerHTML, Server-driven vs. Client-driven In-Reply-To: <20090825233842.GA17076@panix.com> References: <55dc209b0908202305t2c77102bq26f0041fc2649f6f@mail.gmail.com> <20090825231450.GA419@panix.com> <3D0996F1-31DA-4B94-A870-CEF70D5D5CE3@inklesspen.com> <20090825233842.GA17076@panix.com> Message-ID: > I surf faster than you do, monkey boy. ?(My take on Netscape vs. Lynx) Here's the official list of shortcuts: http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Keyboard+shortcuts Here's my own personal list: Firefox keyboard shortcuts: Select location bar: Ctrl/Cmd+L or Alt+D Select search bar: Ctrl/Cmd+K Back: Backspace or Alt/Cmd+Left Forward: Alt/Option+Right or Shift+Backspace Change search engine: Ctrl/Cmd+Down (Next) +Up (Previous) Find as you type text: / Find as you type link: ? Regular old find: Ctrl/Cmd+F Open link in new window: Shift+Enter Open link in new tab: Ctrl/Cmd+Enter Open address/search in new tab: Alt/Option+Enter Caret browsing: F7 Refresh: Ctrl/Cmd+R or F5 Refresh (override cache): Ctrl/Cmd+F5 or Ctrl/Cmd+Shift+R Switch tabs: Ctrl/Cmd+Tab Select tab (1-9): Ctrl/Cmd+[1-9] The most important tip that you may or may not know is that you can type a single quote and then start typing some link text. It'll jump to the link, and then you can hit enter. For web pages that you know well, you can often click on a link faster than you can even find it with your eyes. Happy Hacking! -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From LDavid at verisign.com Thu Aug 27 23:32:49 2009 From: LDavid at verisign.com (David, Lysander) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:32:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Software Build Engineer, Mountain View, CA Message-ID: <336461CBD5DD254491155461534409FA01FE1496@MOU1WNEXMB14.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> Job Description How Python will be used on the job: We would like to automate every aspect of the job. Python is the language which will be used ( with a little Jython and IronPython here and there ) This is a software build engineer infrastructure position that requires skills and strengths in two main areas: software builds on UNIX & Windows platforms and interacting with VeriSign's engineering organization to support CVS, Subversion, make, Ant, and other SCM & build tools used internally and externally. The primary responsibility for this position is to be one of the main points of contact for all builds, patches, and software configuration management. Responsibilities will also include debugging build issues, shell and other scripting for day-to-day build activities, and working with individuals from other teams to integrate with 3rd party and open source tools to further build, package, and installation automation. Skills 1. Professional Competencies: - Strong verbal and written communication - Demonstrates persistence and overcomes obstacles - Uses negotiation skills to resolve conflicts - Reacts well under pressure 2. Technical Competencies - Ability to administer an SCM system using Subversion. - Ability to troubleshoot build errors in makefile or ANT build.xml output files. - Improve, automate, and make more rigorous the processes and tools used for building and packaging software builds. - Integration efforts with continuous integration, code coverage, static analysis tools a plus. Competencies Experience required with the following: Linux, Windows, Perl, shell scripting, CVS, Subversion. Experience a plus with: Python, Java, C, Ant, make, VMWare, SSH. Experience & Education B.S. in Computer Science or a related area of study, or equivalent work experience. Require 2-5 Years of technical work experience using the skills and competencies listed above. The company is VeriSign. If anybody is interested perhaps we could chat at today's BayPiggies meeting. Thanks, Lysander David Tools Engineer VeriSign -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From resmith at runbox.com Fri Aug 28 02:17:18 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 46, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I am looking for an actual college course and >> not ~3day training camps, etc. Thanks so much! How about an actual community college ONLINE course? http://www.ed2go.com/online_course/ipy/detail/ipy.html From hyperneato at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 02:27:43 2009 From: hyperneato at gmail.com (Isaac) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:27:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 46, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7260654a0908271727u6134000epc3afba9fca8b37b8@mail.gmail.com> Did you see this? http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-189January--IAP--2008/CourseHome/index.htm On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:17 PM, wrote: > >> I am looking for an actual college course and > >> not ~3day training camps, etc. Thanks so much! > > How about an actual community college ONLINE course? > > http://www.ed2go.com/online_course/ipy/detail/ipy.html > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From resmith at runbox.com Fri Aug 28 02:34:19 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Online Course In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I am looking for an actual college course and >> not ~3day training camps, etc. Thanks so much! >> How about an actual community college ONLINE course? >> http://www.ed2go.com/online_course/ipy/detail/ipy.html Apparently that link changes what course you get. Originally I saw Mongomery College for $98 and the second time I got Mercer County Community College for $89. Here is a link to the Mercer County (New Jersey) Community College ONLINE course (noncredit course): http://www.ed2go.com/cgi-bin/oic3/newcrsdes.cgi?name=mccc.edu&course=ipy&title=Introduction%20to%20Python%202.5%20Programming&departmentnum=WP&path=1 From venkat83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 09:40:56 2009 From: venkat83 at gmail.com (Venkatraman S) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:10:56 +0530 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 46, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <7260654a0908271727u6134000epc3afba9fca8b37b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <7260654a0908271727u6134000epc3afba9fca8b37b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Isaac wrote: > Did you see this? > > > http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-189January--IAP--2008/CourseHome/index.htm > > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:17 PM, wrote: > >> >> I am looking for an actual college course and >> >> not ~3day training camps, etc. Thanks so much! >> >> How about an actual community college ONLINE course? >> >> http://www.ed2go.com/online_course/ipy/detail/ipy.html >> > Why do ppl use digests !!! -V- http://twitter.com/venkasub -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at atoulou.se Fri Aug 28 20:29:57 2009 From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andy Toulouse) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:29:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 46, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: <7260654a0908271727u6134000epc3afba9fca8b37b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9DEA1DE9-2803-482C-81AB-484C426F59D6@atoulou.se> Why do people bottom-post? ;) On Aug 28, 2009, at 12:40 AM, Venkatraman S wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Isaac wrote: > Did you see this? > > http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-189January--IAP--2008/CourseHome/index.htm > > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:17 PM, wrote: > >> I am looking for an actual college course and > >> not ~3day training camps, etc. Thanks so much! > > How about an actual community college ONLINE course? > > http://www.ed2go.com/online_course/ipy/detail/ipy.html > > Why do ppl use digests !!! > > -V- > http://twitter.com/venkasub > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon at inklesspen.com Fri Aug 28 20:59:24 2009 From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:59:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 46, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <9DEA1DE9-2803-482C-81AB-484C426F59D6@atoulou.se> References: <7260654a0908271727u6134000epc3afba9fca8b37b8@mail.gmail.com> <9DEA1DE9-2803-482C-81AB-484C426F59D6@atoulou.se> Message-ID: <31620763-E446-4522-9A40-350025F26C2F@inklesspen.com> On Aug 28, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Andy Toulouse wrote: > Why do people bottom-post? ;) A: Because it destroys the normal order of conversation. Q: Why is top-posting bad? From jim at well.com Fri Aug 28 21:49:26 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:49:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 46, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <31620763-E446-4522-9A40-350025F26C2F@inklesspen.com> References: <7260654a0908271727u6134000epc3afba9fca8b37b8@mail.gmail.com> <9DEA1DE9-2803-482C-81AB-484C426F59D6@atoulou.se> <31620763-E446-4522-9A40-350025F26C2F@inklesspen.com> Message-ID: <1251488966.6637.78.camel@jim-laptop> imo top posting is usually good unless the body of the message is complex, in which case interspersed responses to details strikes me as best. (i don't like scrolling down to the bottom of a simple issue as i remember it from the last time it popped up.) On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 11:59 -0700, Jon Rosebaugh wrote: > On Aug 28, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Andy Toulouse wrote: > > > Why do people bottom-post? ;) > > A: Because it destroys the normal order of conversation. > Q: Why is top-posting bad? > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From nad at acm.org Sun Aug 30 01:36:34 2009 From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:36:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: NEW: Managing Software Developers References: <1251332895.9073.10.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: In article <1251332895.9073.10.camel at jim-laptop>, jim wrote: > There's a last minute change in the BayPIGgies meeting: Alex Martelli > will present his thoughts on managing a software development team. I'd like to throw out a big thanks to Alex for stepping in at the last minute prior to Thursday evening's meeting and presenting another (typically) compelling talk. I found myself repeatedly nodding in agreement as so many of his observations jibed with my experiences on both sides of the management/leadership fence. And his talk contains a boatload of references to books worth reading even if you won't agree with all of the authors' conclusions. I hope Alex won't mind if I mention the URL for the presentation: http://www.aleax.it/bayp_html.pdf If you are at all interested in the topic, it's a very worthwhile read. -- Ned Deily, nad at acm.org From aleax at google.com Sun Aug 30 02:37:20 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:37:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: NEW: Managing Software Developers In-Reply-To: References: <1251332895.9073.10.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <55dc209b0908291737k21ce0da8pd2dd7e62246ce1d8@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Ned Deily wrote: > In article <1251332895.9073.10.camel at jim-laptop>, > ?jim wrote: >> There's a last minute change in the BayPIGgies meeting: Alex Martelli >> will present his thoughts on managing a software development team. > > I'd like to throw out a big thanks to Alex for stepping in at the last > minute prior to Thursday evening's meeting and presenting another > (typically) compelling talk. ?I found myself repeatedly nodding in > agreement as so many of his observations jibed with my experiences on > both sides of the management/leadership fence. ?And his talk contains a > boatload of references to books worth reading even if you won't agree > with all of the authors' conclusions. Hey, thank YOU for these kudos -- and for giving me one more chance to present ideas that are very important to me. This was the second time I've had a chance to give a presentation about management since I last switched back from the management track to the individual-contributor track (in October '08), and I think that "refreshing" my experience on "this side of the fence" (after managing for about 4 years this time) also "refreshed" and rekindled my enthusiasm for the subject and refined some of my ideas about it. I'd like to make this a standing offer (though not a commitment on my part;-): if Baypiggies or another grassroot group finds itself in a pickle by missing a speaker, and I can have 2-3 days' notice, I can probably arrange to come give a decent talk (at least if I get a nice dinner out of it, as it seems I'm due to get this time;-). Most subjects I can easily wax lyrical about are probably of interest only to hard-core Python fans (see the list of the ones I haven't yet presented at Baypiggies that I posted a few days ago on the list as we were trying to pick a subject), but not all (intros to Python, technical management, abstraction, ...). > I hope Alex won't mind if I mention the URL for the presentation: > > http://www.aleax.it/bayp_html.pdf On the contrary, THANKS for posting this URL! > If you are at all interested in the topic, it's a very worthwhile read. ...and again thanks for the kudos!-) Alex From donnamsnow at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 02:45:16 2009 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:45:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ZPUG Valley group is forming Message-ID: Hi, I finally have a location and date for the first ZPUG Valley meeting. First meeting will be organizational. Second meeting the topic is Django (core dev will speak, we are working out what to cover - any suggestions?) http://www.facebook.com/hackerdojo#/event.php?eid=119313234731 This group is focused on python based web frameworks and technologies. Our meetings will be the third Wednesday of each month at Hacker Dojo in Mountain View. Thank You!! Hope to see a few of you there! (please rsvp on facebook page) Best Regards, Donna 'SnowWrite' Snow card.ly/snowwrite -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Aug 30 04:12:56 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 19:12:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ZPUG Valley group is forming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090830021256.GA3348@panix.com> On Sat, Aug 29, 2009, Donna Snow wrote: > > I finally have a location and date for the first ZPUG Valley meeting. What is a ZPUG? -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I support family values -- Addams family values" --www.nancybuttons.com From charles.merriam at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 04:36:27 2009 From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 19:36:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ZPUG Valley group is forming In-Reply-To: <20090830021256.GA3348@panix.com> References: <20090830021256.GA3348@panix.com> Message-ID: Sounds fun. Might start with the components roadmap: what's in each of the Djano/Zope/Python/TurboGears, etc. Is this a standard meeting, or a bring-your-laptops meeting? On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Sat, Aug 29, 2009, Donna Snow wrote: >> >> I finally have a location and date for the first ZPUG Valley meeting. > > What is a ZPUG? > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) ? ? ? ? ? <*> ? ? ? http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "I support family values -- Addams family values" --www.nancybuttons.com > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From luca.pellicoro at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 12:41:07 2009 From: luca.pellicoro at gmail.com (Luca Pellicoro) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 03:41:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ZPUG Valley group is forming In-Reply-To: <20090830021256.GA3348@panix.com> References: <20090830021256.GA3348@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Sat, Aug 29, 2009, Donna Snow wrote: >> >> I finally have a location and date for the first ZPUG Valley meeting. > > What is a ZPUG? Zope Python User Group From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Aug 30 19:01:58 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 10:01:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: NEW: Managing Software Developers In-Reply-To: References: <1251332895.9073.10.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <20090830170158.GA17828@panix.com> On Sat, Aug 29, 2009, Ned Deily wrote: > > I hope Alex won't mind if I mention the URL for the presentation: > > http://www.aleax.it/bayp_html.pdf Just be warned that it's a monster at >16MB. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I support family values -- Addams family values" --www.nancybuttons.com From bdbaddog at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 22:08:23 2009 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 13:08:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: NEW: Managing Software Developers In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0908291737k21ce0da8pd2dd7e62246ce1d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251332895.9073.10.camel@jim-laptop> <55dc209b0908291737k21ce0da8pd2dd7e62246ce1d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0908301308y4a918335w4133edb8db223bb3@mail.gmail.com> Alex, I've posted a link to your pdf on the event on the baypiggies.net website. All past events are archived so it should be easy for people to find this link in the future (besides the mailing list archives) :) Should I copy the pdf to the site, or will the URL stay as is for the foreseeable future? Thanks again, Bill Deegan On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Ned Deily wrote: > > In article <1251332895.9073.10.camel at jim-laptop>, > > jim wrote: > >> There's a last minute change in the BayPIGgies meeting: Alex Martelli > >> will present his thoughts on managing a software development team. > > > > I'd like to throw out a big thanks to Alex for stepping in at the last > > minute prior to Thursday evening's meeting and presenting another > > (typically) compelling talk. I found myself repeatedly nodding in > > agreement as so many of his observations jibed with my experiences on > > both sides of the management/leadership fence. And his talk contains a > > boatload of references to books worth reading even if you won't agree > > with all of the authors' conclusions. > > Hey, thank YOU for these kudos -- and for giving me one more chance to > present ideas that are very important to me. This was the second time > I've had a chance to give a presentation about management since I last > switched back from the management track to the individual-contributor > track (in October '08), and I think that "refreshing" my experience on > "this side of the fence" (after managing for about 4 years this time) > also "refreshed" and rekindled my enthusiasm for the subject and > refined some of my ideas about it. > > I'd like to make this a standing offer (though not a commitment on my > part;-): if Baypiggies or another grassroot group finds itself in a > pickle by missing a speaker, and I can have 2-3 days' notice, I can > probably arrange to come give a decent talk (at least if I get a nice > dinner out of it, as it seems I'm due to get this time;-). Most > subjects I can easily wax lyrical about are probably of interest only > to hard-core Python fans (see the list of the ones I haven't yet > presented at Baypiggies that I posted a few days ago on the list as we > were trying to pick a subject), but not all (intros to Python, > technical management, abstraction, ...). > > > > I hope Alex won't mind if I mention the URL for the presentation: > > > > http://www.aleax.it/bayp_html.pdf > > On the contrary, THANKS for posting this URL! > > > If you are at all interested in the topic, it's a very worthwhile read. > > ...and again thanks for the kudos!-) > > > Alex > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleax at google.com Mon Aug 31 02:41:25 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 17:41:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: NEW: Managing Software Developers In-Reply-To: <8540148a0908301308y4a918335w4133edb8db223bb3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251332895.9073.10.camel@jim-laptop> <55dc209b0908291737k21ce0da8pd2dd7e62246ce1d8@mail.gmail.com> <8540148a0908301308y4a918335w4133edb8db223bb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0908301741u786dfd0em31b2b3d877370730@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 1:08 PM, William Deegan wrote: > Alex, > > I've posted a link to your pdf on the event on the baypiggies.net website. > All past events are archived so it should be easy for people to find this > link in the future (besides the mailing list archives) :) > > Should I copy the pdf to the site, or will the URL stay as is for the > foreseeable future? I don't plan to move the PDF, but I have no objections to it getting copied around (it's quite large and having it on a connection closer to the bay area, rather than way away in Tuscany, might also help people). Alex