From mgentry at slide.com Thu Oct 1 23:19:02 2009 From: mgentry at slide.com (Mark Gentry) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Web Developer In-Reply-To: <1752412686.427021254431713272.JavaMail.root@calculon.corp.slide.com> Message-ID: <1554068651.427091254431942833.JavaMail.root@calculon.corp.slide.com> Want to be a part of the next big internet success story? Want to be a tech pioneer alongside artists, athletes, musicians, and talent from around the globe? Then you want to be at Slide. About Slide We are the #1 developer of applications on social networks. * Our applications, like Slideshow, FunSpace, SuperPoke! and Top Friends, are as technically deep and sophisticated as they are popular. * Our 155+ million users make us one of the top 10 web properties in the world; that's serious scale. Job Description: You will work with a small, talented team in a fast-paced environment at our office in San Francisco, building and scaling out highly entertaining, media rich Internet applications used by hundreds of millions of people. You will collaborate with really smart and fun engineers. You will solve hard problems and bend Web technologies to accomplish new, interesting and complex engineering challenges. About You: * Get excited about working with wicked smart people and solving really challenging problems * Enjoy working in a small team, fast-paced start-up environment where engineering is king * Want to work on both the front-end and back-end of high transaction Web applications * Are very strong in designing and implementing complex object-oriented abstractions, data structures, run-time complexity, etc., but feel you can still learn from others * Have worked with different languages but have a strong preference for Python. You think decorators and generators are cool. You are familiar with Django, Pylons or TurboGears frameworks and understand their trade-offs * Can write efficient JavaScript, are knowledgeable with jQuery, and are familiar with AJAX * Think Actionscript/Flex/Flash are interesting and wouldn't mind learning them * Enjoy staying up-to-date with technologies so you can suggest new coding practices, recommend architecture changes and collaborate with our platform team to optimize scalability and network efficiency * Love seeing your work used by hundreds of millions of people -- Mark Gentry Recruiter Slide, Inc. mgentry at slide.com From krnewton at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 23:16:49 2009 From: krnewton at gmail.com (Ken Newton) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 14:16:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job: Contract embedding/embedded instrument programming Message-ID: <8fd67d4b0910021416s57bb6fd9uec0451f8ea271b4e@mail.gmail.com> My current project has a need for a contract programmer to create a scripting interface to our instrument control software for the development phase of our next-generation mass spectrometer project. The company name is Varian, Inc. and the work is located in Walnut Creek, CA. We have a small (3-8 person) project team (scientists, EE, ME, SW) that is being assembled to do the early development phase of this project. As we will be re-using portions of designs and hardware from existing products, we expect to have an early working prototype within the next 2 months. We want to use the Python scripting interface to allow the instrument engineers and scientists to adjust and tune the multitude of parameters used to optimize instrument performance. I have used the PyCXX framework to create a basic interface between Python and the (Windows) C/C++ code used in other products. We need to extend this interface to include more functionality, moving time-critical sections from an initial Python implementation into C++ code as required. I anticipate the need for a full-time contractor for the next 3 months. Assuming that this project meets its feasibility goals, it may be desirable to extend the contract for a longer period or to convert to full time status. Requirements are sufficient experience both with Python and relevant Python/C++ and C++ design and programming. Experience in software in embedded or instrument control is a significant bonus skill. Send resumes to ken.newton at varianinc.com (mention BayPIGgies), but feel free to direct other questions to me at this address also. Ken Newton krnewton at gmail.com Varian Inc. http://www.varianinc.com/ From slander at unworkable.org Mon Oct 5 07:26:46 2009 From: slander at unworkable.org (Harry Tormey) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 22:26:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGameSF meetup Thursday October 8th 6pm @ 3rd floor Main San Francisco Public Library Message-ID: <20091005052646.GB15112@unworkable.org> Hi All, The October PyGameSF meet up will be at the PALEY (not the STONG) conference room on the third floor of the main San Francisco public library beside civic center BART. The library closes at 8pm so we will reconvene to frjtz on hayes street for dinner/drinks afterwords. This month's presentations are: * Shannon -jj Behrens, How to Blow Up Helicopters Using Pygame. The talk will consists of a summary of some of the libraries and tricks JJ used for his two PyWeek entries. It will be covering topics such as PGU, generator-based animations, and state machine based levels. * Harry Tormey: Who is it? This talk will cover the in's and outs of working with Facbook and pylons while giving an update on a social network game I am currently working on. PyGameSF is an informal group meet up in San Francisco for Software engineers interested in python, OpenGL, audio, pygame, SDL, programming and generally anything to do with multimedia development. The format of our meetings typically involve several people giving presentations on projects they are developing followed by group discussion and feedback. If anyone else would like to give a micro presentation, show demos or just talk about what they are doing or generally give examples of any relevant software they are working on please feel free to head along To subscribe to the pygamesf mailing list simply email pygame-sf+subscribe at unworkable.org -- Harry Tormey Co Founder P2P Research http://p2presearch.com Founder PyGameSF http://pygamesf.org Software Engineer Digidesign http://digidesign.com From brent.tubbs at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 20:53:55 2009 From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com (Brent Tubbs) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:53:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python/Django help open up US Govt Message-ID: <769bb4300910051153l179ebfcey2a596762fbb576e6@mail.gmail.com> I thought this was neat enough to merit passing along. The team at Freedom to Tinker have put together a site ( http://www.fedthread.org/) that allows searching and threaded comments for all US Govt regulations published in the Federal Register, going back to 2000. Any paragraph can be the start of a new conversation thread. You can have RSS or email feeds based on custom searches. It was built on a LAMP stack using Django, jQuery, and critically, the Federal Register XML feed from the Government Printing Office. The really impressive part: there were only ten days between the initial concept for the site and the launch. Full announcement here: http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/introducing-fedthread-opening-federal-register -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spl at member.fsf.org Tue Oct 6 03:36:04 2009 From: spl at member.fsf.org (Steve Lindblad) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:36:04 -0500 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python/Django help open up US Govt In-Reply-To: <769bb4300910051153l179ebfcey2a596762fbb576e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <769bb4300910051153l179ebfcey2a596762fbb576e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091006013604.GA6753@pav> This is very cool! (Both fedthread and the fact that the GPO is making the FR available as XML.) Perfect example of how python and open source can empower democracy. Do you know if they are or intend to publish the source code? I'm actually having a bit of trouble searching, but hopefully that is a temporary situation. Maybe it's more popular than they expected. Thanks for posting. On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 11:53:55AM -0700, Brent Tubbs wrote: > I thought this was neat enough to merit passing along. > > The team at Freedom to Tinker have put together a site ( > http://www.fedthread.org/) that allows searching and threaded comments for > all US Govt regulations published in the Federal Register, going back to > 2000. Any paragraph can be the start of a new conversation thread. You can > have RSS or email feeds based on custom searches. It was built on a LAMP > stack using Django, jQuery, and critically, the Federal Register XML feed > from the Government Printing Office. > > The really impressive part: there were only ten days between the initial > concept for the site and the launch. > > Full announcement here: > http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/introducing-fedthread-opening-federal-register > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Oct 6 03:36:41 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 18:36:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer Message-ID: My team is looking for another programmer (yeah!) But, I must tell you, finding a fit for us here will be very difficult. You need to know Bioinformatics well enough to be able to to understand the directions given (a challenge for everyone when they start here -- even PhDs in this field). So, here are some basic questions to help you sort out, "should I even read on?" * Do you know the difference between DNA and Amino Acids? (Bonus if you have all the Amino Acids memorized -- I still don't)? * Do you know what is a gene (i.e., how is a gene different, if it is, than a bunch of amino acids strung together as residues)? * Do you know what a phylogenetic or phylogenomic tree is? * Do you know what I mean by a predicted 'active site' in a molecule? * Can you describe the shape of an amino acid (i.e., when formed and/or when in an environment conducive to folding) * Do you know what Biopython is and why it is useful? * Do you know what a neighbor joining tree is? (Or Maximum Likelihood Tree, Maximum Parsimony Tree, Quick Tree, etc.) * Do you know what a Pairwise Alignment is and how it differs from a Multiple Sequence Alignment (MSA) * Do you know how to lookup an accession number in Genbank? (Or Switprot? Or Pfam?) These are basic 101 questions, FYI. You should know a lot more, like what a Baysean network and Hidden Markov Models are. You don't have to know every single thing listed above, but if it's all completely alien to you, you *will* be in for a struggle -- especially if you don't know Python/Django that well. What would work in our team, you may ask? Someone incredibly proactive and who won't be intimidated easily. For example, if a PhD told you they needed something to happen, described it graphically (what it should look like), but not understand any of the difficulties (like databases, javascript, html, etc.) to make that happen, would you get frustrated, or would you make a plan on your own and make that happen? How could you deal with the frustration if the PhD didn't understand what was taking so long because they're focused on the result instead of infrastructure, how would you address this proactively? Can you read incredibly messy old HTML, JavaScript and Perl code, but write incredibly pristine python/django/jquery code, and do it quickly? That is, can you write code that JJ would give a thumb's up too, and write it quickly? [JJ isn't involved in this job, I just use his high standards as my internal barometer in my own code. I've not yet written code that JJ hasn't found a problem with (good for me - I'm learning every time he does a code review with me).] Are you willing to take an incredibly low salary (comparatively) because you're that interested in science, working for an very well known research facility, etc? I'm not asking the impossible - I fit the criteria above and will be working along side you (as well as one other). I struggle with some of these things a lot too. There are times it feels like a Dilbert cartoon here -- but, at the end of the day, we're doing some pretty awesome things. You'll get frustrated at the old system and how bad it is (PHP writing HTML writing JavaScript writing HTML (Forms) writing more JavaScript writing lord-knows-what at times). You won't be able to pull on all the old threads (somethings can't yet be changed for fear of damaging processes no one knows about). We're building a new system that mimics the functionality of the old system - but clean and organized and well tuned. You'll be doing Python and Django, but will probably also need to know a good deal of HTML, JavaScript, JQuery, etc in the web stack. (I don't know JavaScript and JQuery that well, but I'm working on it). Also, the new system is, thus far, organized/clean/and a joy to create. It's tough to find someone who's a good fit -- and willing to do this. But, if you're looking and want to talk to me about it, I can help you figure out if this is a position you may be interested in or not. I mean, heck, you got this far, didn't ya :) I'm not a recruiter -- just looking for a python peer who would be excellent to work with. Cheers, Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p at ulmcnett.com Tue Oct 6 04:38:48 2009 From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:38:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> Glen Jarvis wrote: > My team is looking for another programmer (yeah!) [snip excellent stuff describing the job perfectly, as far as I can tell] > I'm not a recruiter -- just looking for a python peer who would be > excellent to work with. Glen, I'm not qualified. Well, maybe I could be by boning up on bioinformatics. But I just wanted to say: excellent job post! I got a good feeling about what the day would be like working at your company, and it was actually warm and fuzzy (well, except the low salary part, but that just made the rest of what you said sound all the more truthful). Recruiters, take note! You get people to apply for your positions by having a techie-type that is actually in the trenches TELL THE TRUTH about the position! What a concept! Paul From rami.chowdhury at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 05:14:13 2009 From: rami.chowdhury at gmail.com (Rami Chowdhury) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:14:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> References: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> Message-ID: On Oct 5, 2009, at 19:38 , Paul McNett wrote: > Glen Jarvis wrote: >> My team is looking for another programmer (yeah!) > > [snip excellent stuff describing the job perfectly, as far as I can > tell] > >> I'm not a recruiter -- just looking for a python peer who would be >> excellent to work with. > > Recruiters, take note! You get people to apply for your positions by > having a techie-type that is actually in the trenches TELL THE TRUTH > about the position! What a concept! +1. Very well said. FWIW, I'm not remotely qualified either (I can never keep thymine and uracil straight ;-)). From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Tue Oct 6 05:32:50 2009 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:32:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ballmer: Windows PCs controlling TVs are 37% more competitive here. Message-ID: Frustrated by the lack of Twitter followers to me, I have create the robot TechPsychic to tweet on my behalf. http://twitter.com/TechPsychic/ Follow TechPsychic for latest invented news, tech rumors, imaginary venture funding and many hilarious quotes from Mr CEO :-D This silly project is partly inspired by the resources in the book "Natural Language Processing with Python". http://www.nltk.org/book There seems to be a lot of great work and resources in this Python open source project. But I haven't actually deployed their code for my project though. Enjoy, Wai Yip From claw at kanga.nu Tue Oct 6 11:23:25 2009 From: claw at kanga.nu (JC Lawrence) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 02:23:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python/Django help open up US Govt In-Reply-To: <20091006013604.GA6753@pav> References: <769bb4300910051153l179ebfcey2a596762fbb576e6@mail.gmail.com> <20091006013604.GA6753@pav> Message-ID: <749B3C60-5E40-4CEC-AA27-538169DBC525@kanga.nu> I tweeted the site to the #gov20 hashtag and it has taken on a bit of a life of its own there. I expect the site has been getting quite a bit of traffic. -- JCL On 5 Oct 2009, at 18:36 , Steve Lindblad wrote: > This is very cool! (Both fedthread and the fact that the GPO is making > the FR available as XML.) Perfect example of how python and open > source can empower democracy. Do you know if they are or intend to > publish the source code? > > I'm actually having a bit of trouble searching, but hopefully that is > a temporary situation. Maybe it's more popular than they expected. > > Thanks for posting. > > On Mon, Oct 05, 2009 at 11:53:55AM -0700, Brent Tubbs wrote: >> I thought this was neat enough to merit passing along. >> >> The team at Freedom to Tinker have put together a site ( >> http://www.fedthread.org/) that allows searching and threaded >> comments for >> all US Govt regulations published in the Federal Register, going >> back to >> 2000. Any paragraph can be the start of a new conversation >> thread. You can >> have RSS or email feeds based on custom searches. It was built on >> a LAMP >> stack using Django, jQuery, and critically, the Federal Register >> XML feed >> from the Government Printing Office. >> >> The really impressive part: there were only ten days between the >> initial >> concept for the site and the launch. >> >> Full announcement here: >> http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/introducing-fedthread-opening-federal-register > >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From bsergean at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 18:16:48 2009 From: bsergean at gmail.com (Benjamin Sergeant) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 09:16:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> Message-ID: <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> Agreed, the job looks very interesting. But I would say that one should not be affraid to apply, even if you have very little knowledge in bio-informatics. I used to be the code monkey of a friend who had a PhD, was very advanced in math and who was doing genetics (phylogeny) reseach. Most of the stuff he asked me was to read biologic files in some weird format and convert to something else / process them. If you are somewhat good at data munging / tree algorithm and someone in this company can help you grasp basics of biology then try to apply. The most important is being willing to learn. I had another friend who was a good OS system developer who worked for a bio lab, he took over some code and optimized it like crazy (malloc optimization -> completion went from days to milliseconds). I don't think he knew anything in biology but he helped them a lot. Cheers, - Benjamin On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Rami Chowdhury wrote: > > On Oct 5, 2009, at 19:38 , Paul McNett wrote: > >> Glen Jarvis wrote: >>> >>> My team is looking for another programmer (yeah!) >> >> [snip excellent stuff describing the job perfectly, as far as I can tell] >> >>> I'm not a recruiter -- just looking for a python peer who would be >>> excellent to work with. >> >> Recruiters, take note! You get people to apply for your positions by >> having a techie-type that is actually in the trenches TELL THE TRUTH about >> the position! What a concept! > > +1. Very well said. FWIW, I'm not remotely qualified either (I can never > keep thymine and uracil straight ;-)). > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Oct 6 19:00:24 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:00:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091006170024.GA20691@panix.com> On Tue, Oct 06, 2009, Benjamin Sergeant wrote: > > Agreed, the job looks very interesting. But I would say that one > should not be affraid to apply, even if you have very little knowledge > in bio-informatics. That seems a bit rude. Particularly given the mini-quiz about biology, clearly the people hiring for the job want a biology background. I'm generally willing to apply for jobs where I'm a decent fit, but not jobs where I am a poor fit for the advertised requirements. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..." --Siobhan From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Oct 6 23:44:31 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:44:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Benjamin Sergeant wrote: > [snip] I used to be the code monkey of a friend who had a PhD, was very > advanced in math and who was doing genetics (phylogeny) reseach. Most > of the stuff he asked me was to read biologic files in some weird > format and convert to something else / process them. If you are > somewhat good at data munging / tree algorithm and someone in this > company can help you grasp basics of biology then try to apply. The > most important is being willing to learn. > > Just to be clear, this particular position is not at all like above. I still say, please do apply if you wish. But, I want to set your expectation that this position is very different than what is described in the above paragraph. Cheers, Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bsergean at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 23:27:30 2009 From: bsergean at gmail.com (Benjamin Sergeant) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:27:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <20091006170024.GA20691@panix.com> References: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> <20091006170024.GA20691@panix.com> Message-ID: <1621f9fa0910061427g69e02893h767e7216c0b974bc@mail.gmail.com> Only Glen can answer that. Out of curiosity, Glen, did you have a degree in biology / or good grasp of biology before starting / finding this job ? - Benjamin On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Aahz wrote: > On Tue, Oct 06, 2009, Benjamin Sergeant wrote: >> >> Agreed, the job looks very interesting. But I would say that one >> should not be affraid to apply, even if you have very little knowledge >> in bio-informatics. > > That seems a bit rude. ?Particularly given the mini-quiz about biology, > clearly the people hiring for the job want a biology background. ?I'm > generally willing to apply for jobs where I'm a decent fit, but not jobs > where I am a poor fit for the advertised requirements. > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) ? ? ? ? ? <*> ? ? ? ? http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..." ?--Siobhan > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Oct 7 00:22:44 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 15:22:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <1621f9fa0910061427g69e02893h767e7216c0b974bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> <20091006170024.GA20691@panix.com> <1621f9fa0910061427g69e02893h767e7216c0b974bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091006222244.GA8331@panix.com> On Tue, Oct 06, 2009, Benjamin Sergeant wrote: > On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Aahz wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 06, 2009, Benjamin Sergeant wrote: >>> >>> Agreed, the job looks very interesting. But I would say that one >>> should not be affraid to apply, even if you have very little knowledge >>> in bio-informatics. >> >> That seems a bit rude. Particularly given the mini-quiz about biology, >> clearly the people hiring for the job want a biology background. I'm >> generally willing to apply for jobs where I'm a decent fit, but not jobs >> where I am a poor fit for the advertised requirements. > > Only Glen can answer that. Out of curiosity, Glen, did you have a > degree in biology / or good grasp of biology before starting / finding > this job ? That is IMO not a relevant question. It's one thing to ask Glen (publicly or privately) whether the stated requirements are really essential. It's another thing entirely to go ahead and apply for a job where you do not match the stated requirements, particularly emphasized requirements. I do think it makes sense to use one's judgement in borderline cases, but as I said above, when a job ad goes to considerable length to quiz prospective applicants on their knowledge about a subject, I think that applying when one does not match their stated requirements is rude. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..." --Siobhan From dalke at dalkescientific.com Wed Oct 7 01:49:57 2009 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 01:49:57 +0200 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> Hi all, I know nothing about this particular job, but a few things about what it's like to do software development for a bioinformatics/ cheminfomatics/structural biology group, so I thought I would add some feedback given the other comments I've seen. On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:36 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > So, here are some basic questions to help you sort out, "should I > even read on?" What he's asked starts with high school biology and builds up to undergrad microbiology/bioinformatics. What he's asking for is someone who knows the basics of the bioinformatics. (If you noticed that his questions show more a bioinformatics, vs. structural biology slant, then you're definitely qualified. ;) I've worked with people who have no biology/chemistry background when entering this field as software developers. It can happen. But it's rare. In general it's easier for a scientist to learn enough programming than for a programmer to learn enough science. Without the domain knowledge it's hard to even ask the right questions. There are cases where specific abilities, like optimization, outweigh knowing knowledge of the field, but this posting is obviously not about one of them. > What would work in our team, you may ask? Someone incredibly > proactive and who won't be intimidated easily. For example, if a > PhD told you they needed something to happen, described it > graphically (what it should look like), but not understand any of > the difficulties (like databases, javascript, html, etc.) to make > that happen, would you get frustrated, or would you make a plan on > your own and make that happen? How could you deal with the > frustration if the PhD didn't understand what was taking so long > because they're focused on the result instead of infrastructure, > how would you address this proactively? Those situations are very common, and he describes it well. It might be common as well outside the sciences, but I don't have enough experience in the wider world. I had one of my clients say to me (humorously) when I was describing the different technology solutions "you're saying things but all I hear is a bunch of sounds." This is part of the work I find fun, btw. Your customer doesn't want to be involved in making the technology decisions, just figure out what they want and get the work done. > Can you read incredibly messy old HTML, JavaScript and Perl code, > but write incredibly pristine python/django/jquery code, and do it > quickly? For some background on this in general (again, might have nothing to do with this particular job) see the part where I said "easier to teach a scientist to program"? Well, most of them don't program well. They learn just enough to get the science done. They've spent ~6 years of graduate school, plus industry experience, to get where they can do science. Not code. > Are you willing to take an incredibly low salary (comparatively) > because you're that interested in science, working for an very well > known research facility, etc? That's the tricky part for many people. When I got started in this field as a software developer I was cautioned by a recruiter that the wages were lower than in the general programming field. For one, why should someone with an undergrad degree at best be paid a lot more than someone with ~6 years of graduate school, plus industry experience? (There's also something which has only happened to me a couple of times in my career - looked down upon because I didn't have a PhD. There's a cultural tradition I've heard of in some places where the PhDs rule and everyone else is a bunch of lab monkeys. I've not come across it; it might be more common in a wet lab environment. Then again, most people assume I have a PhD.) But there are people, like me, who like working with more physically oriented data sets than working on, say, financial data or social networks. People who just like science, and will take the pay cut. It's also great fun to work with people who have absolutely no problem in peering intently at data and spending hours trying to figure something out. They want to do the things you're helping them do, and you usually get quick feedback. BTW, I'm available for consulting and contract programming in the life sciences, and programming training so those scientists can be more effective at doing their science ... but I charge pharma rates and don't plan to be an employee. ;) Andrew dalke at dalkescientific.com From p at ulmcnett.com Wed Oct 7 02:31:40 2009 From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:31:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> Message-ID: <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> Andrew Dalke wrote: > But there are people, like me, who like working with more physically > oriented data sets than working on, say, financial data or social > networks. People who just like science, and will take the pay cut. This is getting off topic, and personal, but I've been doing application design and implementation in the accounting, small business, point-of-sale, and small manufacturing arenas for my entire career. I've always been interested in science, and follow with great interest the written-for-laypeople science articles. But I never took any but the most basic science courses in high school and college (I don't even have any computer science formal education). I'm very happy with my consulting life but sometimes I wish I were doing more for the common good. Like being involved in advancing human knowledge somehow. So as I get older and more financially secure, I can see myself getting more likely to pursue a job as a programmer in some interesting scientific project. I think it would add some level of personal satisfaction to my life, knowing that I'm contributing to the greater good. So, I appreciate knowing about such opportunities, even though there's no way I'd apply for this particular gig at this particular time, because I agree with Aahz that it would be rude to waste people's time that way. Paul From dalke at dalkescientific.com Wed Oct 7 03:42:30 2009 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 03:42:30 +0200 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> Message-ID: <4ECEFDA5-F855-4D93-9596-F3659541BCDC@dalkescientific.com> On Oct 7, 2009, at 2:31 AM, Paul McNett wrote: > So as I get older and more financially secure, I can see myself > getting more likely to pursue a job as a programmer in some > interesting scientific project. I think it would add some level of > personal satisfaction to my life, knowing that I'm contributing to > the greater good. Then let me contribute a high note. There are a few interesting match- ups I've seen from a non-scientist who got into this field: - someone with an MIS background working for a mouse research lab. They needed to develop a tracking and ordering system for the mice, because they supply specially bred mice to other labs. - someone with a image processing and ray tracing background is now doing the job I once had; developing and maintaining a molecular graphics visualization program. He knows about 100x more about the graphics than I did, and it shows. I focused more on the programmability. ;) - someone from the games industry entered bioinformatics and his optimization of the program for whole genome assembly was the primary reason the public Human Genome Project ended up tying with the private one. - one group I visited had an design artist visit, to help come up with different ways to visualize their data. In one of the companies I worked with, and several of my client companies, they've hired people who are not physical scientists as software people. Often these are support programmers, where the scientist knows what they want to do but not how to do it. So there are many possibilities! Andrew dalke at dalkescientific.com From p at ulmcnett.com Thu Oct 8 00:37:32 2009 From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 15:37:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <4ECEFDA5-F855-4D93-9596-F3659541BCDC@dalkescientific.com> References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> <4ECEFDA5-F855-4D93-9596-F3659541BCDC@dalkescientific.com> Message-ID: <4ACD182C.9000306@ulmcnett.com> Andrew Dalke wrote: > On Oct 7, 2009, at 2:31 AM, Paul McNett wrote: >> So as I get older and more financially secure, I can see myself >> getting more likely to pursue a job as a programmer in some >> interesting scientific project. I think it would add some level of >> personal satisfaction to my life, knowing that I'm contributing to the >> greater good. > > Then let me contribute a high note. There are a few interesting > match-ups I've seen from a non-scientist who got into this field: > > - someone with an MIS background working for a mouse research lab. > They needed to develop a tracking and ordering system for the mice, > because they supply specially bred mice to other labs. > > - someone with a image processing and ray tracing background is now > doing the job I once had; developing and maintaining a molecular > graphics visualization program. He knows about 100x more about the > graphics than I did, and it shows. I focused more on the > programmability. ;) > > - someone from the games industry entered bioinformatics and his > optimization of the program for whole genome assembly was the primary > reason the public Human Genome Project ended up tying with the private one. > > - one group I visited had an design artist visit, to help come up with > different ways to visualize their data. > > In one of the companies I worked with, and several of my client > companies, they've hired people who are not physical scientists as > software people. Often these are support programmers, where the > scientist knows what they want to do but not how to do it. > > So there are many possibilities! So there are! Thanks for the thread, all! Now, back to trying to get my app to look right on Vista (if there is such a thing). Paul From jwilliams at pictopia.com Thu Oct 8 01:54:46 2009 From: jwilliams at pictopia.com (James Williams) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:54:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Software Engineer/Web Developer Message-ID: Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a while, but my company is looking to hire a developer. We have a legacy web application that is a combination of Perl/XSLT, but we are slowly converting it over to Django, so both Python and Perl knowledge are essential. -James ============================ Position: Software Engineer Description: The Software Engineer will assist in maintaining and further evolving Pictopia?s software-directed systems, primarily on the back-end. As for our photo fulfillment systems, the operations include production, image gallery, and transaction processing; at the corporate level, these include internet hosting and monitoring, system administration, search indexing, and database management, among others. Responsibilities: ? Bug fixes ? Minor application enhancements ? Major application additions/changes ? Develop tools to better support Account Executives, Customer Service, and other developers ? Create tools to monitor system and application processes ? Assist with Linux, Apache, and MySQL administration and troubleshooting Required Skills: ? Object Oriented Perl ? Object Oriented Python, optimally with Django 1.x ? MySQL ? 2 years minimum real world experience engineering web solutions for LAMP stacks ? Practical experience developing in a *nix environment ? Experience with Apache configuration, Linux system administration, and database administration (preferably MySQL) ? Working knowledge of HTML ? Strong verbal, written, analytical and communication skills Additional skills: ? XSLT, XML, Javascript, PHP ? Strong relational DB knowledge (table optimization, query optimization) ? Enthusiasm for architecting and implementing solid, scalable, extensible solutions This is a high-visibility position within a very small team, and the ideal candidate will be a dedicated, hands on professional who can take ownership of tasks with minimal oversight. We value positive attitudes and professionals who can successfully navigate through ambiguous and challenging situations. Candidates are required to be on- site in our Emeryville offices, as there is a high degree of interaction between all parts of the business. We offer an exciting and unique opportunity for the ambitious developer who wants to play a large part in one of the net?s next e- commerce sensations! Compensation is comprised of both salary and equity incentives. About the Company: Pictopia.com, located in Emeryville, California, provides highest quality photo prints to consumers via purchases made at its own web site and at the sites of its partners. Over 800 of the world?s top media organizations including National Geographic, The US National Archives, The Washington Post, AOL and Yahoo, The Associated Press and AFP, The NBA and MLB, have partnered with Pictopia to monetize their vast image holdings via sales to the public. By taking the partners' image archives and feeds direct to the public, Pictopia creates brand- promotion opportunities and revenue streams that have not previously existed. As an example of how we work today, if you are browsing the Washington Post web-site and see a picture you want to own for yourself, when you click to ?buy? the picture, it takes you to our web- site and we handle all the transaction order and fulfillment. We are a privately funded entrepreneurial venture which has recently made a strategic and management restructuring. At this new stage of our growth, we are very excited to be advancing to the next level in our company?s development! Culture: At Pictopia we have a relaxed, intimate and informal environment. As a growing dot com we work hard but like to have fun doing it. Every team member is a valuable contributor to achieving the company?s objectives. Our flat corporate hierarchy supports team players, not strong egos. Benefits: Pictopia provides many big-company benefits in a small company setting including: ? Medical, Dental, Vision and prescription coverage ? Health care Flexible Spending Account ? Employee Assistance Program (EAP) ? Basic Life and Personal Accident Insurance ? 401K and 529 College Savings Plans ? Professional training and development From jadhav.harshal at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 02:49:25 2009 From: jadhav.harshal at gmail.com (harshal jadhav) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:49:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python In-Reply-To: <13bd510c0910071745w5e1e8df2l839e1c0f5e8752b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <13bd510c0910071745w5e1e8df2l839e1c0f5e8752b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13bd510c0910071749l3baea5b7lc2a294ff3b51b51a@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: harshal jadhav Date: Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 5:45 PM Subject: array in python To: bangpypers at python.org Hi Everybody, I am Harshal Jadhav, student at San Jose State University. I am using Python for my Master's project and i am a beginner. I am using python language for GNU Radio. For this i have a sampled signal. The signal is a sine wave. I have to trap each sample of this sine wave in an array. Is it possible to capture the samples of the sine wave in an array in python? Regards, Harshal Jadhav -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From keith at dartworks.biz Thu Oct 8 04:05:25 2009 From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 19:05:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python In-Reply-To: <13bd510c0910071749l3baea5b7lc2a294ff3b51b51a@mail.gmail.com> References: <13bd510c0910071745w5e1e8df2l839e1c0f5e8752b0@mail.gmail.com> <13bd510c0910071749l3baea5b7lc2a294ff3b51b51a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091007190525.0b2f9527@dartworks.biz> === On Wed, 10/07, harshal jadhav wrote: === > I am using python language for GNU Radio. For this i have a sampled > signal. The signal is a sine wave. I have to trap each sample of this > sine wave in an array.Is it possible to capture the samples of the > sine wave in? an array in python?? === Yes. You might also want to take a look at the numpy extension. -- Keith Dart -- -- -------------------- Keith Dart ======================= From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Thu Oct 8 04:15:37 2009 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 19:15:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python In-Reply-To: <20091007190525.0b2f9527@dartworks.biz> References: <13bd510c0910071745w5e1e8df2l839e1c0f5e8752b0@mail.gmail.com> <13bd510c0910071749l3baea5b7lc2a294ff3b51b51a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, NumPy is good for large datasets. Harshav - is the problem importing the data format, or what? What formnat do you currently have it in? > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 19:05:25 -0700 > From: keith at dartworks.biz > To: baypiggies at python.org > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python > > === On Wed, 10/07, harshal jadhav wrote: === > > I am using python language for GNU Radio. For this i have a sampled > > signal. The signal is a sine wave. I have to trap each sample of this > > sine wave in an array.Is it possible to capture the samples of the > > sine wave in an array in python? > === > > Yes. You might also want to take a look at the numpy extension. > > > -- Keith Dart > > -- > -- -------------------- > Keith Dart > > ======================= > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jadhav.harshal at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 04:23:20 2009 From: jadhav.harshal at gmail.com (harshal jadhav) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 19:23:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python In-Reply-To: References: <13bd510c0910071745w5e1e8df2l839e1c0f5e8752b0@mail.gmail.com> <13bd510c0910071749l3baea5b7lc2a294ff3b51b51a@mail.gmail.com> <20091007190525.0b2f9527@dartworks.biz> Message-ID: <13bd510c0910071923g1c1fa8b6w7d40b59f8fe18a36@mail.gmail.com> I am having the data in complex form... Regards, Harshal On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > Yes, NumPy is good for large datasets. > > Harshav - is the problem importing the data format, or what? > What formnat do you currently have it in? > > > > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 19:05:25 -0700 > > From: keith at dartworks.biz > > To: baypiggies at python.org > > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python > > > > === On Wed, 10/07, harshal jadhav wrote: === > > > I am using python language for GNU Radio. For this i have a sampled > > > signal. The signal is a sine wave. I have to trap each sample of this > > > sine wave in an array.Is it possible to capture the samples of the > > > sine wave in an array in python? > > === > > > > Yes. You might also want to take a look at the numpy extension. > > > > > > -- Keith Dart > > > > -- > > -- -------------------- > > Keith Dart > > > > ======================= > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > ------------------------------ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From claw at kanga.nu Thu Oct 8 04:32:46 2009 From: claw at kanga.nu (JC Lawrence) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 19:32:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python In-Reply-To: <13bd510c0910071923g1c1fa8b6w7d40b59f8fe18a36@mail.gmail.com> References: <13bd510c0910071745w5e1e8df2l839e1c0f5e8752b0@mail.gmail.com> <13bd510c0910071749l3baea5b7lc2a294ff3b51b51a@mail.gmail.com> <20091007190525.0b2f9527@dartworks.biz> <13bd510c0910071923g1c1fa8b6w7d40b59f8fe18a36@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Why don't we start at the other end and look at what the data actually is and what you need to be able to do with it? The combination of the data's natural structure plus your access requirements will drive the choice of data-structure (and thus Python Modules etc). What are you trying to deal with here, and what sorts of operations do you need to be able to do efficiently with it? -- JCL On 7 Oct 2009, at 19:23 , harshal jadhav wrote: > I am having the data in complex form... > > Regards, > Harshal > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Stephen McInerney > wrote: > > Yes, NumPy is good for large datasets. > > Harshav - is the problem importing the data format, or what? > What formnat do you currently have it in? > > > > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 19:05:25 -0700 > > From: keith at dartworks.biz > > To: baypiggies at python.org > > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python > > > > === On Wed, 10/07, harshal jadhav wrote: === > > > > I am using python language for GNU Radio. For this i have a > sampled > > > signal. The signal is a sine wave. I have to trap each sample of > this > > > sine wave in an array.Is it possible to capture the samples of the > > > sine wave in an array in python? > > === > > > > Yes. You might also want to take a look at the numpy extension. > > > > > > -- Keith Dart > > > > -- > > -- -------------------- > > Keith Dart > > > > ======================= > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From jadhav.harshal at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 04:42:40 2009 From: jadhav.harshal at gmail.com (harshal jadhav) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 19:42:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python In-Reply-To: References: <13bd510c0910071745w5e1e8df2l839e1c0f5e8752b0@mail.gmail.com> <13bd510c0910071749l3baea5b7lc2a294ff3b51b51a@mail.gmail.com> <20091007190525.0b2f9527@dartworks.biz> <13bd510c0910071923g1c1fa8b6w7d40b59f8fe18a36@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13bd510c0910071942y2c013776qd895f4e197e9b3de@mail.gmail.com> Hi JC, I am trying to implement space time coding on gnu radio. I have a signal source generating sinusoidal wave. The output of this signal source is the sampled version of sinusoidal wave. I want to capture these samples in an array, so that i can group certain number of samples and mark them as symbol S1 and similarly have symbol S2 gropu of other samples. I have pyhton code which generates two sinusoidal signals and routes them over two USRP boards which bears the antenna. one signal is routed through daughterboard1 and other is routed through daughterboard2. I want to trap the samples of the source signal before they enter the usrp board. *code :* Transmit 2 signals, one out each daughterboard. Outputs SSB (USB) signals on side A and side B at frequencies specified on command line. Side A is 600 Hz tone. Side B is 350 + 440 Hz tones. """ from gnuradio import gr from gnuradio.eng_notation import num_to_str, str_to_num from gnuradio import usrp from gnuradio import audio from gnuradio import blks2 from gnuradio.eng_option import eng_option from optparse import OptionParser from usrpm import usrp_dbid import math import sys class example_signal_0(gr.hier_block2): """ Sinusoid at 600 Hz. """ def __init__(self, sample_rate): gr.hier_block2.__init__(self, "example_signal_0", gr.io_signature(0, 0, 0), # Input signature gr.io_signature(1, 1, gr.sizeof_gr_complex)) # Output signature src = gr.sig_source_c (sample_rate, # sample rate gr.GR_SIN_WAVE, # waveform type 600, # frequency 1.0, # amplitude 0) # DC Offset self.connect(src, self) class example_signal_1(gr.hier_block2): """ North American dial tone (350 + 440 Hz). """ def __init__(self, sample_rate): gr.hier_block2.__init__(self, "example_signal_1", gr.io_signature(0, 0, 0), # Input signature gr.io_signature(1, 1, gr.sizeof_gr_complex)) # Output signature src0 = gr.sig_source_c (sample_rate, # sample rate gr.GR_SIN_WAVE, # waveform type 350, # frequency 1.0, # amplitude 0) # DC Offset src1 = gr.sig_source_c (sample_rate, # sample rate gr.GR_SIN_WAVE, # waveform type 440, # frequency 1.0, # amplitude 0) # DC Offset sum = gr.add_cc() self.connect(src0, (sum, 0)) self.connect(src1, (sum, 1)) self.connect(sum, self) class my_top_block(gr.top_block): def __init__(self): gr.top_block.__init__(self) usage="%prog: [options] side-A-tx-freq side-B-tx-freq" parser = OptionParser (option_class=eng_option, usage=usage) (options, args) = parser.parse_args () if len(args) != 2: parser.print_help() raise SystemExit else: freq0 = str_to_num(args[0]) freq1 = str_to_num(args[1]) # ---------------------------------------------------------------- # Set up USRP to transmit on both daughterboards self.u = usrp.sink_c(nchan=2) # say we want two channels self.dac_rate = self.u.dac_rate() # 128 MS/s self.usrp_interp = 400 self.u.set_interp_rate(self.usrp_interp) self.usrp_rate = self.dac_rate / self.usrp_interp # 320 kS/s # we're using both daughterboard slots, thus subdev is a 2-tuple self.subdev = (self.u.db[0][0], self.u.db[1][0]) print "Using TX d'board %s" % (self.subdev[0].side_and_name(),) print "Using TX d'board %s" % (self.subdev[1].side_and_name(),) # set up the Tx mux so that # channel 0 goes to Slot A I&Q and channel 1 to Slot B I&Q self.u.set_mux(0xba98) self.subdev[0].set_gain(self.subdev[0].gain_range()[1]) # set max Tx gain self.subdev[1].set_gain(self.subdev[1].gain_range()[1]) # set max Tx gain self.set_freq(0, freq0) self.set_freq(1, freq1) self.subdev[0].set_enable(True) # enable transmitter self.subdev[1].set_enable(True) # enable transmitter # ---------------------------------------------------------------- # build two signal sources, interleave them, amplify and connect them to usrp sig0 = example_signal_0(self.usrp_rate) sig1 = example_signal_1(self.usrp_rate) intl = gr.interleave(gr.sizeof_gr_complex) self.connect(sig0, (intl, 0)) self.connect(sig1, (intl, 1)) # apply some gain if_gain = 10000 ifamp = gr.multiply_const_cc(if_gain) # and wire them up self.connect(intl, ifamp, self.u) def set_freq(self, side, target_freq): """ Set the center frequency we're interested in. @param side: 0 = side A, 1 = side B @param target_freq: frequency in Hz @rtype: bool Tuning is a two step process. First we ask the front-end to tune as close to the desired frequency as it can. Then we use the result of that operation and our target_frequency to determine the value for the digital up converter. """ print "Tuning side %s to %sHz" % (("A", "B")[side], num_to_str(target_freq)) r = self.u.tune(self.subdev[side]._which, self.subdev[side], target_freq) if r: print " r.baseband_freq =", num_to_str(r.baseband_freq) print " r.dxc_freq =", num_to_str(r.dxc_freq) print " r.residual_freq =", num_to_str(r.residual_freq) print " r.inverted =", r.inverted print " OK" return True else: print " Failed!" return False if __name__ == '__main__': try: my_top_block().run() except KeyboardInterrupt: pass Regards, Harshal On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:32 PM, JC Lawrence wrote: > Why don't we start at the other end and look at what the data actually is > and what you need to be able to do with it? The combination of the data's > natural structure plus your access requirements will drive the choice of > data-structure (and thus Python Modules etc). What are you trying to deal > with here, and what sorts of operations do you need to be able to do > efficiently with it? > > -- JCL > > > On 7 Oct 2009, at 19:23 , harshal jadhav wrote: > > I am having the data in complex form... >> >> Regards, >> Harshal >> >> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Stephen McInerney < >> spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> Yes, NumPy is good for large datasets. >> >> Harshav - is the problem importing the data format, or what? >> What formnat do you currently have it in? >> >> >> > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 19:05:25 -0700 >> > From: keith at dartworks.biz >> > To: baypiggies at python.org >> > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python >> > >> > === On Wed, 10/07, harshal jadhav wrote: === >> >> > > I am using python language for GNU Radio. For this i have a sampled >> > > signal. The signal is a sine wave. I have to trap each sample of this >> > > sine wave in an array.Is it possible to capture the samples of the >> > > sine wave in an array in python? >> > === >> > >> > Yes. You might also want to take a look at the numpy extension. >> > >> > >> > -- Keith Dart >> > >> > -- >> > -- -------------------- >> > Keith Dart >> > >> > ======================= >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Baypiggies mailing list >> > Baypiggies at python.org >> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> >> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bsergean at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 02:48:01 2009 From: bsergean at gmail.com (Benjamin Sergeant) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:48:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> Message-ID: <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Paul McNett

wrote: > Andrew Dalke wrote: >> >> But there are people, like me, who like working with more physically >> oriented data sets than working on, say, financial data or social networks. >> ?People who just like science, and will take the pay cut. > > This is getting off topic, and personal, but I've been doing application > design and implementation in the accounting, small business, point-of-sale, > and small manufacturing arenas for my entire career. I've always been > interested in science, and follow with great interest the > written-for-laypeople science articles. But I never took any but the most > basic science courses in high school and college (I don't even have any > computer science formal education). > > I'm very happy with my consulting life but sometimes I wish I were doing > more for the common good. Like being involved in advancing human knowledge > somehow. > > So as I get older and more financially secure, I can see myself getting more > likely to pursue a job as a programmer in some interesting scientific > project. I think it would add some level of personal satisfaction to my > life, knowing that I'm contributing to the greater good. > > So, I appreciate knowing about such opportunities, even though there's no > way I'd apply for this particular gig at this particular time, because I > agree with Aahz that it would be rude to waste people's time that way. > Maybe no one will answer this posting because it looks too hard, and what will be wasted is that they won't find anyone ... while maybe you would have been a great fit. There are some stuff you can learn while doing a job, that's the job of an engineer. I have a coworker who worked for NASA and who did not understand a thing about propulsion chemistry. But he wrote the program that drove some spaceship because he got some specs from someone who did ... I have never done any Python at the paying job, but I like to learn things and now I can do some python. It's very pessimistic to believe you're gonna do only what you learned in hight school/university or in your first job for your whole life. > Paul > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From bender at onsrc.com Thu Oct 8 20:34:39 2009 From: bender at onsrc.com (RYAN DELUCCHI) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:34:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >> [Snip] >> So, I appreciate knowing about such opportunities, even though >> there's no >> way I'd apply for this particular gig at this particular time, >> because I >> agree with Aahz that it would be rude to waste people's time that >> way. > [Snip] > > There are some [things] you can learn while doing a job, that's the > job > of an engineer. +1 I would argue that it rude to immediately dismiss a software engineer solely because he/she hasn't encountered a particular subclass of programming problems. Software Engineers that are worth their salt are capable of applying their programming expertise to various types of problems. And in a market like today's: developers are going to exercise this flexibility even more so. That aside: I can site plenty of examples of software engineers that have worked in a variety of different problem domains throughout their career. In fact, I started writing software in the consumer electronics industry, then moved on to server-side mobile service development, and after a brief stint in writing code for a company specializing in geocoding and mapping services, my current gig involves building software for recruiting and employee performance management. But, don't take my word for it. Do read: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000073.html . Ryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bsergean at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 20:53:05 2009 From: bsergean at gmail.com (Benjamin Sergeant) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:53:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1621f9fa0910081153p1f8688b7l67831a1854e086c@mail.gmail.com> Thank you man, I was thinking I was the only one on this boat of "probably you can learn it at the job" ;) - Benjamin * Of course there are some stuff you can't or will have a damned hard time to learn at the job (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity anyone ?) ... but there are other stuff that you can (XML parsing) :) On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:34 AM, RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: > [Snip] > > So, I appreciate knowing about such opportunities, even though there's no > > way I'd apply for this particular gig at this particular time, because I > > agree with Aahz that it would be rude to waste people's time that way. > > [Snip] > > There are some [things] you can learn while doing a job, that's the job > of an engineer. > > +1 ?I would argue that it rude?to immediately dismiss a software engineer > solely because he/she hasn't encountered a particular subclass of > programming problems. ?Software Engineers that are worth their salt are > capable of applying their programming expertise to various types of > problems. ?And in a market like today's: developers are going to exercise > this flexibility even more so. ?That?aside: I can site plenty of examples of > software engineers that have worked in a variety of different problem > domains throughout their career. ?In fact, I started writing software in the > consumer electronics industry, then moved on to server-side mobile service > development, and after a brief stint in writing code for a company > specializing in geocoding and mapping services, my current gig involves > building software for recruiting and employee performance management. > But, don't take my word for it. ?Do > read:?http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000073.html. > Ryan From tony at tcapp.com Thu Oct 8 21:01:08 2009 From: tony at tcapp.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 12:01:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0910081201j7e3788c2jdd15f226290a0366@mail.gmail.com> > > > So, I appreciate knowing about such opportunities, even though there's no > > way I'd apply for this particular gig at this particular time, because I > > agree with Aahz that it would be rude to waste people's time that way. > Being rude doesn't even apply here. I have been on several interviews where I didn't match all of the criteria. I have even been called by recruiters and hiring managers when I had only 1-2 skills which matched a list of 5 or more so called requirements.. Hiring managers have told me more than once that it's so hard to find people who match all the criteria, that they often have to relax the list of requirements in order to get people to interview who are partially qualified. This comes with the expectation that the applicant can learn other skills quickly. If you get called for an interview, then the company has expressed that your background is sufficient enough to consider you a viable candidate. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbaddog at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 21:17:53 2009 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 12:17:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0910081201j7e3788c2jdd15f226290a0366@mail.gmail.com> References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> <8249c4ac0910081201j7e3788c2jdd15f226290a0366@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0910081217v3c09efd8wb1c04a7d5c946db4@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > So, I appreciate knowing about such opportunities, even though there's no >> > way I'd apply for this particular gig at this particular time, because I >> > agree with Aahz that it would be rude to waste people's time that way. >> > > Being rude doesn't even apply here. > > I have been on several interviews where I didn't match all of the criteria. > I have even been called by recruiters and hiring managers when I had only > 1-2 skills which matched a list of 5 or more so called requirements.. > > Hiring managers have told me more than once that it's so hard to find > people who match all the criteria, that they often have to relax the list of > requirements in order to get people to interview who are partially > qualified. This comes with the expectation that the applicant can learn > other skills quickly. > > If you get called for an interview, then the company has expressed that > your background is sufficient enough to consider you a viable candidate. > > There was a practice of floating overly specify job postings to cover some requirements of H-1 visa applications. I think INS caught on to that eventually and will ding you for that now. In other words these were often job postings where the poster had no interest of actually finding a candidate. And/or they already have 1 in house resource with all the qualifications and they need a clone (which usually is either extraordinarily hard to find or impossible). I wish the original poster lots of luck finding the combo listed, but advise that after a few months of searching (assuming filling the position is not that urgent) relaxing some of the requirements. -Bill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From python at dylanreinhardt.com Thu Oct 8 22:08:12 2009 From: python at dylanreinhardt.com (Dylan Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 13:08:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0910081201j7e3788c2jdd15f226290a0366@mail.gmail.com> References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> <8249c4ac0910081201j7e3788c2jdd15f226290a0366@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c645a720910081308v3f158e7fhfd42cd12afd79035@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > So, I appreciate knowing about such opportunities, even though there's no >> > way I'd apply for this particular gig at this particular time, because I >> > agree with Aahz that it would be rude to waste people's time that way. >> > > Being rude doesn't even apply here. > Rude is the perfect word for it. When someone has made it clear that a specific set of skills is required and those are skills that take many years of hard work to acquire, it is rude (not to mention arrogant) to suggest that you could pick these skills up during a spare weekend. You are saying, in effect, that other people's life work is a matter of little consequence or challenge for someone of your vast intellect. Good programming skills are not sufficient qualification for all programming jobs. Get used to that, you're going to be seeing a lot more of it as computational biology continues to explode. $.02. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Thu Oct 8 22:27:10 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 13:27:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I apologize for the very long thread that this has caused. I try only to contribute additional emails if I feel something hasn't been said and may be helpful. It seems a lot of people are interested, but want to know where to acquire the skills to apply for jobs like these. If it helps, for this particular job, if you knew the full content - front to back - of both of these textbooks, could communicate the matter in the books, and pass a theoretical 'final exam' and if you were already a pretty good Python programmer, I think you'd have a great chance of getting the job: 1) Understanding bioinformatics - Marketa Zvelebil/Jeremy O. Baum 2) Bioinformatics - A practical guide to the analysis of genes and proteins - Andreas D. Baxevanis/B.F. Francis Ouellette Remember, I'm not doing the hiring. These are opinions from me as a peer 'in the trenches.' So don't let me discourage *anyone* from applying if they wish to. I want to find peers in my peer group and alert them to this job. It helps the Python community and increases the chance we get someone who's a gem to work with. Currently, we have an *awesome* team and that hasn't always been the case.... I'd like to keep the *awesomeness*... Also, if you have emailed me and I hadn't responded, I apologize. I've been trying to keep up with the tread and promise to email everyone privately before tonight/tomorrow. I believe this job will have a very short posting, so you should apply as soon as possible. Cheers, Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dalke at dalkescientific.com Thu Oct 8 23:37:08 2009 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 23:37:08 +0200 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 8, 2009, at 8:34 PM, RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: > +1 I would argue that it rude to immediately dismiss a software > engineer solely because he/she hasn't encountered a particular > subclass of programming problems. As a reminder of the context, the questions from Glen (the OP) were about biology and more specifically bioinformatics. They weren't programming related but rather application domain related. If you start talking about taking a software engineer and bring them up to speed on the science, then the relevant comparison is to take a scientist and bring them up to speed on software engineering. Which do you think is easier? The latter is much more common in my experience. Andrew dalke at dalkescientific.com From pascal at oreilly.com Fri Oct 9 00:42:57 2009 From: pascal at oreilly.com (Pascal Honscher) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:42:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Software Engineer at O'Reilly Media Message-ID: O'Reilly Media, Inc. spreads the knowledge of innovators through its books, online services, magazine, and conferences. Since 1978, O'Reilly has been a chronicler and catalyst of leading-edge development, homing in on the technology trends that really matter and spurring their adoption by amplifying "faint signals" from the alpha geeks who are creating the future. An active participant in the technology community, the company has a long history of advocacy, meme- making, and evangelism. I'm the Director of IT here at O'Reilly Media, and we're looking for a full time software Engineer who can join our collaborative team environment. This position will be working in a team environment building and maintaining enterprise-class business and client-oriented applications using creative and cutting edge technologies. This position must also adapt quickly to legacy and evolving architectures in implementing incremental feature improvements and in maintaining existing applications. This position reports to the Software Manager, and is located at our corporate headquarters in Sebastopol, CA. We're looking for someone with a solid 2-3 years of enterprise-class Python development experience, 2 plus years of RDBMS experience (ideally MySQL, PostgreSQL and/or Oracle), and 1-2 years of experience working with XML databases and various XML dialects. These might include Marklogic, XQuery, RDF, Docbook, SPARQL, and eXist. In this position, you'll use Python and various web application frameworks (primarily Pylons) to build web-based applications that service internal and external-facing audiences. You'll be exposed to our core publishing, metadata, and content tool chains that are heavily vested in XML-based technologies, and will be working to help support new business initiatives in various parts of the organization. You'll also be working on back-end systems using Python, Java, Relational database, XML and XML database technologies. Check out the official posting on oreilly.com where you'll find instructions on how to apply: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/j/196 And feel free to ask any specific questions! -Pascal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bender at onsrc.com Fri Oct 9 02:01:24 2009 From: bender at onsrc.com (RYAN DELUCCHI) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 17:01:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My earlier ramblings were of a more general nature. So, pardon me if I annoyed any fellow members of the scientific community. If a job req. demands knowledge outside of software engineering or programming (e.g. Biology, Chemistry): my arguments no longer apply. It would be very rude indeed for me to say that understanding algorithmic analysis implies one could magically figure out the difference between DNA and tRNA, for example. On the flip side, taking a biologist (for example) and "bringing them up to speed on software engineering" is equally non-trivial, depending of course what one means by "bringing them up to speed" :-) Ryan > On Oct 8, 2009, at 8:34 PM, RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: >> +1 I would argue that it rude to immediately dismiss a software >> engineer solely because he/she hasn't encountered a particular >> subclass of programming problems. > > As a reminder of the context, the questions from Glen (the OP) were > about biology and more specifically bioinformatics. They weren't > programming related but rather application domain related. > > If you start talking about taking a software engineer and bring them > up to speed on the science, then the relevant comparison is to take > a scientist and bring them up to speed on software engineering. > > Which do you think is easier? The latter is much more common in my > experience. From jadhav.harshal at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 05:21:38 2009 From: jadhav.harshal at gmail.com (harshal jadhav) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 20:21:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] line understanding problem Message-ID: <13bd510c0910082021y7922f7ebya50e910306e62223@mail.gmail.com> Hi I want to play the following program : from gnuradio import gr from gnuradio import audio from gnuradio.eng_option import eng_option from optparse import OptionParser class my_top_block(gr.top_block): def __init__(self): gr.top_block.__init__(self) parser = OptionParser(option_class=eng_option) parser.add_option("-O", "--audio-output", type="string", default="", help="pcm output device name. E.g., hw:0,0 or /dev/dsp") parser.add_option("-r", "--sample-rate", type="eng_float", default=48000, help="set sample rate to RATE (48000)") (options, args) = parser.parse_args () if len(args) != 0: parser.print_help() raise SystemExit, 1 sample_rate = int(options.sample_rate) ampl = 0.1 src0 = gr.sig_source_f (sample_rate, gr.GR_SIN_WAVE, 350, ampl) print src0 #src11 = [src0(1),src0(2)] src1 = gr.sig_source_f (sample_rate, gr.GR_SIN_WAVE, 440, ampl) dst = audio.sink (sample_rate, options.audio_output) self.connect (src0, (dst, 0)) self.connect (src1, (dst, 1)) if __name__ == '__main__': try: my_top_block().run() except KeyboardInterrupt: pass though i get the output but i also get the following statement i donot understand what this line means. My aim is to capture the samples of src0. for that purpose i have given *print src0 *command. Regards, Harshal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Wed Oct 7 01:22:13 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 16:22:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <1621f9fa0910061427g69e02893h767e7216c0b974bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> <20091006170024.GA20691@panix.com> <1621f9fa0910061427g69e02893h767e7216c0b974bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Benjamin Sergeant wrote: > Only Glen can answer that. Out of curiosity, Glen, did you have a > degree in biology / or good grasp of biology before starting / finding > this job ? > > - Benjamin My degree was Computer Science, but I did take both graduate and undergraduate courses in Bioinformatics (although these courses counted for my undergraduate degree). I'm, by far, not an expert. I'm just the 'programmer' here. Please realize that these questions are 101 type of questions, and are not generally meant to be difficult. Knowing the answers to these questions, I still struggle, a *lot*, when I'm given an assignment. Assignments aren't "spec'ed" in any computer science or industry terms whatsoever -- and, I need to fully understand the biological needs to be able to interpret and give what they want. The quiz I gave gives one a basic understanding of what someone, who is just starting out, should probably know before they start -- or they'll probably feel completely overwhelmed and lost. It's already an overwhelming environment. One doesn't have to understand everything 100%. But, if they scratched their head in a majority of the questions that I asked, they will most probably feel additionally overwhelmed and ask themselves "why am I doing this again?"... This is not exactly the easiest environment to work in -- some of it is sink or swim.. produce or go... But, again, if you're an excellent programmer and are up for the challenge, I think you should go for it. What's the worst than can happen? You spend a little time working for something, only to find out that you didn't get the job? That's not horrible -- especially if you have the time. And, who knows, you may get it... Cheers, Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adam at hupp.org Fri Oct 9 06:07:26 2009 From: adam at hupp.org (Adam Hupp) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 21:07:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] line understanding problem In-Reply-To: <13bd510c0910082021y7922f7ebya50e910306e62223@mail.gmail.com> References: <13bd510c0910082021y7922f7ebya50e910306e62223@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <766a29bd0910082107r68f62aaew98de90b65ed802dd@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 8:21 PM, harshal jadhav wrote: > > though i get the output but i also get the following statement > > > i donot understand what this line means. My aim is to capture the samples of > src0. for that purpose i have given print src0 command. > That is printed because you are trying to print an object. This is expected behavior. What were you trying to do by printing src0? -- Adam Hupp | http://hupp.org/adam/ From wescpy at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 07:06:55 2009 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 22:06:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> <20091006170024.GA20691@panix.com> <1621f9fa0910061427g69e02893h767e7216c0b974bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <78b3a9580910082206x52a19919q61ad5c73713efdcf@mail.gmail.com> in 2001 during the dot bomb fallout, i joined a medical imaging company in San Francisco. after spending my entire career in a C, Unix, Python, and networking environment, going to a company that did software for doctors in a clinical trials setting was just a whacked-out idea. i asked the VP of Engineering whether i would still be a good fit because not only did i not have any medical background but didn't even take chemistry or biology in college! here was his response: "it's easier to find a Python programmer and train them medically on-the-job than it is to find a person with a medical background and teach them how to code in Python." as a result, i' actually know something about osteoporosis and spinal fractures now :-) ... *and* brave enough to even talk about it: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2006/Talks#A6 http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/12742 the way glen describes "specs" sounds awfully familiar.... cheers, -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Python Web Development with Django", Addison Wesley, (c) 2009 http://withdjango.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From jadhav.harshal at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 07:13:08 2009 From: jadhav.harshal at gmail.com (harshal jadhav) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 22:13:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] line understanding problem In-Reply-To: <766a29bd0910082107r68f62aaew98de90b65ed802dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <13bd510c0910082021y7922f7ebya50e910306e62223@mail.gmail.com> <766a29bd0910082107r68f62aaew98de90b65ed802dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13bd510c0910082213t7b4808dftd00324c458487a01@mail.gmail.com> Hi Adam srco has samples of sine wave generator. i want to capture those samples in a file, so that i can process those samples before transmitting it. Regards, Harshal On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Adam Hupp wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 8:21 PM, harshal jadhav > wrote: > > > > though i get the output but i also get the following statement > > > > > > i donot understand what this line means. My aim is to capture the samples > of > > src0. for that purpose i have given print src0 command. > > > > That is printed because you are trying to print an object. This is > expected behavior. What were you trying to do by printing src0? > > -- > Adam Hupp | http://hupp.org/adam/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tony at tcapp.com Fri Oct 9 07:15:15 2009 From: tony at tcapp.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 22:15:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580910082206x52a19919q61ad5c73713efdcf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> <20091006170024.GA20691@panix.com> <1621f9fa0910061427g69e02893h767e7216c0b974bc@mail.gmail.com> <78b3a9580910082206x52a19919q61ad5c73713efdcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0910082215m2f410b06k6c45c2970445e69@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:06 PM, wesley chun wrote: > in 2001 during the dot bomb fallout, i joined a medical imaging > company in San Francisco. after spending my entire career in a C, > Unix, Python, and networking environment, going to a company that did > software for doctors in a clinical trials setting was just a > whacked-out idea. > > i asked the VP of Engineering whether i would still be a good fit > because not only did i not have any medical background but didn't even > take chemistry or biology in college! here was his response: "it's > easier to find a Python programmer and train them medically on-the-job > than it is to find a person with a medical background and teach them > how to code in Python." > +100 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Oct 9 15:44:28 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 06:44:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580910082206x52a19919q61ad5c73713efdcf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ACAADB8.8010103@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910060916q370c376es4058f6d83bbd1d19@mail.gmail.com> <20091006170024.GA20691@panix.com> <1621f9fa0910061427g69e02893h767e7216c0b974bc@mail.gmail.com> <78b3a9580910082206x52a19919q61ad5c73713efdcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091009134428.GC2272@panix.com> On Thu, Oct 08, 2009, wesley chun wrote: > > in 2001 during the dot bomb fallout, i joined a medical imaging > company in San Francisco. after spending my entire career in a C, > Unix, Python, and networking environment, going to a company that did > software for doctors in a clinical trials setting was just a > whacked-out idea. > > i asked the VP of Engineering whether i would still be a good fit > because not only did i not have any medical background but didn't even > take chemistry or biology in college! here was his response: "it's > easier to find a Python programmer and train them medically on-the-job > than it is to find a person with a medical background and teach them > how to code in Python." That's fine, but when a job ad specifically says that bio background is required *and* includes a mini-quiz designed to verify a *minimal* knowledge, I think it is rude to apply when you can't answer the quiz questions. Similarly, when a company includes a programming quiz that I can't easily handle, I assume that's a minimum requirement for the job and skip applying. As someone who has been on the hiring side, I know that these quizzes are the direct result of people applying who can't meet even minimal qualifications. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "To me vi is Zen. To use vi is to practice zen. Every command is a koan. Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated. You discover truth everytime you use it." --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com From rich at noir.com Fri Oct 9 17:34:14 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 08:34:14 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <4c645a720910081308v3f158e7fhfd42cd12afd79035@mail.gmail.com> References: <2B6F942F-670E-4DD6-B573-41F7DAFC137D@dalkescientific.com> <4ACBE16C.5040107@ulmcnett.com> <1621f9fa0910061748x4bf1342fs3e2e0d5f3c96a46c@mail.gmail.com> <8249c4ac0910081201j7e3788c2jdd15f226290a0366@mail.gmail.com> <4c645a720910081308v3f158e7fhfd42cd12afd79035@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACF57F6.2090501@noir.com> I've been around a long time. (Over 30 years in the field now.) And I've spent most of my career contracting, so I've been through a lot of job ads, a lot of interviews, worked with a lot of recruiters, had a lot of jobs, etc. The simple fact that a thing is listed in an ad as a "requirement" doesn't necessarily mean that it really is absolutely required. No matter who writes it and no matter what they say, they adjust their requirements if a star candidate presents themselves. Job requirements in postings fall into one of four categories. 1. Buzzwords. These are usually added by non-technical people who are just using them to weed out inappropriate candidates. They'll include trivial things like "shell usage" or the ability to use a pc100 US-intl keyboard. They really are trivial and you can easily get by on these if you even recognize what they're talking about. Unfortunately, there are entire automated resume handling systems now completely built on these things, so get used to them. "Python" is one such buzzword. "Scripting" is another. 2. Crap you can pick up. I got my first gig out of college by claiming that I knew C, (having only read the book at the time). However, I learned it and wrote it faster than any of them did so they never knew the difference. Doing this is always a gamble and it depends on your background, your commitment, the sophistication of your potential employer, coworkers, etc. Many of the things in category #1 above also fit into this category. 3. Negotiable requirements, sometimes called "candidate wish list items". Really, the vast majority of "requirements" on ads fall into this category. This is why it's completely reasonable to apply to a job when you're "in the ball park" even if you don't have some of the "requirements" they list. If they have plenty of candidates, then they'll just weed you out. If they don't, then they well be interested in talkig with you and may agree that the things you don't already have could fit into category #2 - crap you can pick up. And sometimes a potential employer will hire someone even if they don't have a skill and won't pick it up. If you're a strong enough candidate, and a good enough match in other ways, they may well find some other way to deal with that particular part of their needs. Levels and types of work experience are often negotiable as is education. 4. Strict requirements. Generally, each job ad has about one of these. Seriously. And you usually have to read between the lines to figure it out. Visas and security clearances sometimes fall into this category, as does the ability to interview on site in person. The primary reason they're looking for someone tends to be one of these, although it's rarely actually listed in a job ad because it's usually extremely difficult to express to strangers. The strict requirements are generally about whether you can do the job they need done. That's a fuzzy, hazy concept and a difficult one to judge from a distance. The best tool a potential employer has for judging this is how you respond to the first three types of requirements and then how well you purport yourself during any phone screens and interviews. In my opinion, it is not rude to apply for a job when you lack some of the "requirements". Rather, it's prudent. If you're genuinely inappropriate, they'll weed you out and you've lost nothing. They'll weed out most of the appropriate candidates too, so don't worry about it. If they're having trouble finding the precise match they seem to be looking for, then they'll start looking at close matches long before they change their job ad. Despite what employers or recruiters might say, strict, nonnegotiable requirements are exceedingly rare. Personally, if I have all of the requirements listed in an ad, then I usually don't apply because it will almost universally mean that I'm "overqualified" and/or that my experience or technical level will intimidate the potential hiring manager, (been there, done that). Such a job ad usually indicates that the employer is looking for someone at 60 - 70% of my pay grade and I'm not usually willing to take that kind of pay cut. As to the original post, I read it as a fine description of what they were looking for and who they thought would be a good fit. It's entirely possible that someone who didn't match their description might be a good fit too, but such a person would likely have a harder time selling them on that idea than if he matched their description. If you still want that particular gig that much, even if you don't fit their description of their ideal candidate, then go try to sell yourself into it. Sincere enthusiasm and desire are marketable qualities. --rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff at drinktomi.com Fri Oct 9 23:15:57 2009 From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff Younker) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:15:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F8D3380-869C-4CEA-A3B9-3DDA9B2585ED@drinktomi.com> I don't know if I expressed enough interested before, but yes, I'm interested in applying. I can answer all the questions on your list. Although it's been many years since I was in the biological world, I do have the background. I was on my way to a double major in both mathematics and biochemistry, but left school with a very large minor in bioch. I spent a year as an undergraduate doing three dimensional reconstructions of molecules from electron micrographs. So, yes, I do have the background, and I'd love to move more in that direction. It would also be a lot of fun to work with you. My resume is attached. -jeff -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: resume.txt URL: -------------- next part -------------- From jeff at drinktomi.com Fri Oct 9 23:32:10 2009 From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff Younker) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:32:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <0F8D3380-869C-4CEA-A3B9-3DDA9B2585ED@drinktomi.com> References: <0F8D3380-869C-4CEA-A3B9-3DDA9B2585ED@drinktomi.com> Message-ID: I didn't mean to send that to the entire list. - Jeff Younker - jeff at drinktomi.com - On Oct 9, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Jeff Younker wrote: > I don't know if I expressed enough interested before, but yes, I'm > interested in applying. I can answer all the questions on your list. > > Although it's been many years since I was in the biological world, I > do have the background. I was on my way to a double major in both > mathematics and biochemistry, but left school with a very large > minor in bioch. I spent a year as an undergraduate doing three > dimensional reconstructions of molecules from electron micrographs. > So, yes, I do have the background, and I'd love to move more in that > direction. It would also be a lot of fun to work with you. From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Oct 9 23:56:14 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:56:14 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <0F8D3380-869C-4CEA-A3B9-3DDA9B2585ED@drinktomi.com> References: <0F8D3380-869C-4CEA-A3B9-3DDA9B2585ED@drinktomi.com> Message-ID: Jeff, Thank you for following up. I hadn't actually mailed you and about 3-4 others, when I should have. I've been out for two days. I really apologize. You should have gotten a private reply by now. As of now, you (and everyone who showed an interest) should have gotten a reply from me. If not, please *do* ping me again (off list) and I apologize in advance if there was an oversight. With that said, I do *now* believe that I actually answered anyone who expressed an interest in this job. To everyone else, I'm trying to keep the volume of this thread down and communicate off list if I can. Again, I'm only helping me peers know about these connections. I'm not making any hiring decisions nor do I know more than what it's like to do this job (as I have been doing since June/July). My original 'self evaluation' email may have sounded tough -- even much tougher than the job posting description. Again, that evaluation was to help you determine if you'd actually like the job and not be overwhelmed and over-frustrated. Job postings can't clearly communicate what it's like to be in the trenches and what it's like day to day on the job. If you're remotely interested, you *should* apply - you are not committed to taking the job just by applying for it. This is closing *very* quickly, so please *ping* me if you hadn't heard.. And, again, off list.... Warmest Regards, Glen Jarvis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Sat Oct 10 19:19:21 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:19:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1255195161.6428.29.camel@jim-laptop> is there a BayPIGgies talk in this? generally the issue seems to be bringing application-specific experience to programming skills. more specifically, biology and medicine application areas and python--this growth area includes non-intrusive hardware solutions. On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 18:36 -0700, Glen Jarvis wrote: > My team is looking for another programmer (yeah!) > > > But, I must tell you, finding a fit for us here will be very > difficult. You need to know Bioinformatics well enough to be able to > to understand the directions given (a challenge for everyone when they > start here -- even PhDs in this field). > > > So, here are some basic questions to help you sort out, "should I even > read on?" > > > * Do you know the difference between DNA and Amino Acids? (Bonus if > you have all the Amino Acids memorized -- I still don't)? > * Do you know what is a gene (i.e., how is a gene different, if it is, > than a bunch of amino acids strung together as residues)? > * Do you know what a phylogenetic or phylogenomic tree is? > * Do you know what I mean by a predicted 'active site' in a molecule? > * Can you describe the shape of an amino acid (i.e., when formed > and/or when in an environment conducive to folding) > * Do you know what Biopython is and why it is useful? > * Do you know what a neighbor joining tree is? (Or Maximum Likelihood > Tree, Maximum Parsimony Tree, Quick Tree, etc.) > * Do you know what a Pairwise Alignment is and how it differs from a > Multiple Sequence Alignment (MSA) > * Do you know how to lookup an accession number in Genbank? (Or > Switprot? Or Pfam?) > > > These are basic 101 questions, FYI. You should know a lot more, like > what a Baysean network and Hidden Markov Models are. You don't have to > know every single thing listed above, but if it's all completely alien > to you, you *will* be in for a struggle -- especially if you don't > know Python/Django that well. > > > What would work in our team, you may ask? Someone incredibly > proactive and who won't be intimidated easily. For example, if a PhD > told you they needed something to happen, described it graphically > (what it should look like), but not understand any of the difficulties > (like databases, javascript, html, etc.) to make that happen, would > you get frustrated, or would you make a plan on your own and make that > happen? How could you deal with the frustration if the PhD didn't > understand what was taking so long because they're focused on the > result instead of infrastructure, how would you address this > proactively? > > > Can you read incredibly messy old HTML, JavaScript and Perl code, but > write incredibly pristine python/django/jquery code, and do it > quickly? That is, can you write code that JJ would give a thumb's up > too, and write it quickly? [JJ isn't involved in this job, I just use > his high standards as my internal barometer in my own code. I've not > yet written code that JJ hasn't found a problem with (good for me - > I'm learning every time he does a code review with me).] > > > Are you willing to take an incredibly low salary (comparatively) > because you're that interested in science, working for an very well > known research facility, etc? > > > I'm not asking the impossible - I fit the criteria above and will be > working along side you (as well as one other). I struggle with some of > these things a lot too. There are times it feels like a Dilbert > cartoon here -- but, at the end of the day, we're doing some pretty > awesome things. You'll get frustrated at the old system and how bad it > is (PHP writing HTML writing JavaScript writing HTML (Forms) writing > more JavaScript writing lord-knows-what at times). You won't be able > to pull on all the old threads (somethings can't yet be changed for > fear of damaging processes no one knows about). > > > We're building a new system that mimics the functionality of the old > system - but clean and organized and well tuned. You'll be doing > Python and Django, but will probably also need to know a good deal of > HTML, JavaScript, JQuery, etc in the web stack. (I don't know > JavaScript and JQuery that well, but I'm working on it). Also, the new > system is, thus far, organized/clean/and a joy to create. > > > It's tough to find someone who's a good fit -- and willing to do this. > But, if you're looking and want to talk to me about it, I can help you > figure out if this is a position you may be interested in or not. I > mean, heck, you got this far, didn't ya :) > > > I'm not a recruiter -- just looking for a python peer who would be > excellent to work with. > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Glen > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From jim at well.com Sat Oct 10 19:26:38 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:26:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: array in python In-Reply-To: <13bd510c0910071749l3baea5b7lc2a294ff3b51b51a@mail.gmail.com> References: <13bd510c0910071745w5e1e8df2l839e1c0f5e8752b0@mail.gmail.com> <13bd510c0910071749l3baea5b7lc2a294ff3b51b51a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1255195598.6428.31.camel@jim-laptop> there may be a newbie nugget in this: when to use arrays rather than lists. On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 17:49 -0700, harshal jadhav wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: harshal jadhav > Date: Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 5:45 PM > Subject: array in python > To: bangpypers at python.org > > > Hi Everybody, > > I am Harshal Jadhav, student at San Jose State University. > > I am using Python for my Master's project and i am a beginner. > > I am using python language for GNU Radio. For this i have a sampled > signal. The signal is a sine wave. I have to trap each sample of this > sine wave in an array. > Is it possible to capture the samples of the sine wave in an array in > python? > > Regards, > Harshal Jadhav > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From glen at glenjarvis.com Sat Oct 10 19:51:52 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:51:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <1255195161.6428.29.camel@jim-laptop> References: <1255195161.6428.29.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: Wow! This is *such* a big topic. Although it's impossible to squeeze two semesters of classwork into an hour, I could definitely speak on it, but I'd have to keep it on "just the basics"... I'd also drag one of my peers from work in to do this talk (he has a degree both in Microbiology and in Computer Science and can field a lot of the questions).... We could do a tech talk which answered just the self-evaluation questions I sent in a recent email and did some very basic BioPython and webqueries. I know BioPython has fallen out of favor in the past few years, but it's great for doing things like iterating through FASTA sequences, getting sequence lengths, converting from one sequence format to another, etc. And, it's very simple to use - which makes it a great fundamental tool for a basic tech talk. I saw at least two people who were much more qualified than I was on this list - I'd happily speak with them. My topics, however, would assume the audience has zero Biological background. If there's an interest, I could certainly try to put something together. I guess the fundamental question is, how many people would really be interested? Especially since this is 95% basic science and the programming is dead simple (iterating through a sequence and getting some results). We don't have the science to do more complex programming examples. We could also do a basic demo of Pymol too - but that would be showing pretty 3D models of molecules (proteins in our case) using a tool that's already created. I could do this starting January -- but again, I'm not certain how interested our entire group would be since it's heavy on the science you need to understand as background and very light on the actual python/programming. Cheers, Glen P.S. Feel free to comment off list to me if this is something that doesn't have to be said publicly. On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:19 AM, jim wrote: > > is there a BayPIGgies talk in this? > generally the issue seems to be bringing > application-specific experience to programming > skills. more specifically, biology and medicine > application areas and python--this growth area > includes non-intrusive hardware solutions. > > > > On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 18:36 -0700, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > My team is looking for another programmer (yeah!) > > > > > > But, I must tell you, finding a fit for us here will be very > > difficult. You need to know Bioinformatics well enough to be able to > > to understand the directions given (a challenge for everyone when they > > start here -- even PhDs in this field). > > > > > > So, here are some basic questions to help you sort out, "should I even > > read on?" > > > > > > * Do you know the difference between DNA and Amino Acids? (Bonus if > > you have all the Amino Acids memorized -- I still don't)? > > * Do you know what is a gene (i.e., how is a gene different, if it is, > > than a bunch of amino acids strung together as residues)? > > * Do you know what a phylogenetic or phylogenomic tree is? > > * Do you know what I mean by a predicted 'active site' in a molecule? > > * Can you describe the shape of an amino acid (i.e., when formed > > and/or when in an environment conducive to folding) > > * Do you know what Biopython is and why it is useful? > > * Do you know what a neighbor joining tree is? (Or Maximum Likelihood > > Tree, Maximum Parsimony Tree, Quick Tree, etc.) > > * Do you know what a Pairwise Alignment is and how it differs from a > > Multiple Sequence Alignment (MSA) > > * Do you know how to lookup an accession number in Genbank? (Or > > Switprot? Or Pfam?) > > > > > > These are basic 101 questions, FYI. You should know a lot more, like > > what a Baysean network and Hidden Markov Models are. You don't have to > > know every single thing listed above, but if it's all completely alien > > to you, you *will* be in for a struggle -- especially if you don't > > know Python/Django that well. > > > > > > What would work in our team, you may ask? Someone incredibly > > proactive and who won't be intimidated easily. For example, if a PhD > > told you they needed something to happen, described it graphically > > (what it should look like), but not understand any of the difficulties > > (like databases, javascript, html, etc.) to make that happen, would > > you get frustrated, or would you make a plan on your own and make that > > happen? How could you deal with the frustration if the PhD didn't > > understand what was taking so long because they're focused on the > > result instead of infrastructure, how would you address this > > proactively? > > > > > > Can you read incredibly messy old HTML, JavaScript and Perl code, but > > write incredibly pristine python/django/jquery code, and do it > > quickly? That is, can you write code that JJ would give a thumb's up > > too, and write it quickly? [JJ isn't involved in this job, I just use > > his high standards as my internal barometer in my own code. I've not > > yet written code that JJ hasn't found a problem with (good for me - > > I'm learning every time he does a code review with me).] > > > > > > Are you willing to take an incredibly low salary (comparatively) > > because you're that interested in science, working for an very well > > known research facility, etc? > > > > > > I'm not asking the impossible - I fit the criteria above and will be > > working along side you (as well as one other). I struggle with some of > > these things a lot too. There are times it feels like a Dilbert > > cartoon here -- but, at the end of the day, we're doing some pretty > > awesome things. You'll get frustrated at the old system and how bad it > > is (PHP writing HTML writing JavaScript writing HTML (Forms) writing > > more JavaScript writing lord-knows-what at times). You won't be able > > to pull on all the old threads (somethings can't yet be changed for > > fear of damaging processes no one knows about). > > > > > > We're building a new system that mimics the functionality of the old > > system - but clean and organized and well tuned. You'll be doing > > Python and Django, but will probably also need to know a good deal of > > HTML, JavaScript, JQuery, etc in the web stack. (I don't know > > JavaScript and JQuery that well, but I'm working on it). Also, the new > > system is, thus far, organized/clean/and a joy to create. > > > > > > It's tough to find someone who's a good fit -- and willing to do this. > > But, if you're looking and want to talk to me about it, I can help you > > figure out if this is a position you may be interested in or not. I > > mean, heck, you got this far, didn't ya :) > > > > > > I'm not a recruiter -- just looking for a python peer who would be > > excellent to work with. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > Glen > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From annaraven at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 23:25:31 2009 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 14:25:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <1255195161.6428.29.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > Wow! This is *such* a big topic. Although it's impossible to squeeze two > semesters of classwork into an hour, I could definitely speak on it, but I'd > have to keep it on "just the basics"... I'd also drag one of my peers from > work in to do this talk (he has a degree both in Microbiology and in > Computer Science and can field a lot of the questions).... > We could do a tech talk which answered just the self-evaluation questions I > sent in a recent email and did some very basic BioPython and webqueries. I > know BioPython has fallen out of favor in the past few years, but it's great > for doing things like iterating through FASTA sequences, getting sequence > lengths, converting from one sequence format to another, etc. And, it's very > simple to use - which makes it a great fundamental tool for a basic tech > talk. I saw at least two people who were much more qualified than I was on > this list - I'd happily speak with them. My topics, however, would assume > the audience has zero Biological background. > If there's an interest, I could certainly try to put something together. I > guess the fundamental question is, how many people would really be > interested? ?Especially since this is 95% basic science and the programming > is dead simple (iterating through a sequence and getting some results). We > don't have the science to do more complex programming examples. > We could also do a basic demo of Pymol too - but that would be showing > pretty 3D models of molecules (proteins in our case) using a tool that's > already created. > I could do this starting January -- but again, I'm not certain how > interested our entire group would be since it's heavy on the science you > need to understand as background and very light on the actual > python/programming. > +1 I think it sounds delightful! Both the basics with BioPython and the intro to Pymol. If not everyone is interested, that's okay. There's plenty of talks that not *everyone* is interested in. -- cordially, Anna -- I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater! From annaraven at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 23:26:26 2009 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 14:26:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <1255195161.6428.29.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: An alternative, if you think BayPiggies isn't the right venue, would be to give it at HackerDojo as a class. I think we'd get some serious interest in it. -- cordially, Anna -- I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater! From dalke at dalkescientific.com Sun Oct 11 00:56:30 2009 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 00:56:30 +0200 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <1255195161.6428.29.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Glen Jarvis > wrote: >> sent in a recent email and did some very basic BioPython and >> webqueries. I On Oct 10, 2009, at 11:25 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > I think it sounds delightful! Both the basics with BioPython and the > intro to Pymol. Striking a minor nerve here - it's "Biopython" with a lowercase 'p'. I chose that spelling because I didn't want CamelCase in the name. And also, it's "PyMOL" ;) For what it's worth, I'll be in the Bay Area around Thanksgiving and could give my EuroSciPy 2008 talk "Python Tools in Computational Chemistry (and Biology)". Slides at http://www.euroscipy.org/download/2008/ euroscipy2008_dalke_chemistry.pdf What's the status of the BayPIGgies meeting for November, given that the 4th Thursday is Thanksgiving? Andrew dalke at dalkescientific.com From glen at glenjarvis.com Sun Oct 11 01:11:42 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:11:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <1255195161.6428.29.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <7ABBFF7D-BA14-4796-9F52-43E9E719DFBF@glenjarvis.com> >> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Glen Jarvis >> wrote: >>> sent in a recent email and did some very basic BioPython and >>> webqueries. I > > On Oct 10, 2009, at 11:25 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: >> I think it sounds delightful! Both the basics with BioPython and the >> intro to Pymol. > > Striking a minor nerve here - it's "Biopython" with a lowercase 'p'. > I chose that spelling because I didn't want CamelCase in the name. > > And also, it's "PyMOL" ;) Of course my apologies. Glen From kenobi at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 02:47:52 2009 From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:47:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: <7ABBFF7D-BA14-4796-9F52-43E9E719DFBF@glenjarvis.com> References: <1255195161.6428.29.camel@jim-laptop> <7ABBFF7D-BA14-4796-9F52-43E9E719DFBF@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: +1. I'll attend a SciPy, EuroSciPy, or basics of computational biology in Python talk. --Rick Kwan On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Glen Jarvis >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> sent in a recent email and did some very basic BioPython and webqueries. >>>> I >> >> On Oct 10, 2009, at 11:25 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: >>> >>> I think it sounds delightful! Both the basics with BioPython and the >>> intro to Pymol. >> >> Striking a minor nerve here - it's "Biopython" with a lowercase 'p'. I >> chose that spelling because I didn't want CamelCase in the name. >> >> And also, it's "PyMOL" ;) > > Of course my apologies. > > > Glen > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Oct 11 04:10:13 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:10:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] November meeting date In-Reply-To: References: <1255195161.6428.29.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <20091011021013.GA12261@panix.com> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009, Andrew Dalke wrote: > > What's the status of the BayPIGgies meeting for November, given that the > 4th Thursday is Thanksgiving? Thurs 11/19 -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "To me vi is Zen. To use vi is to practice zen. Every command is a koan. Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated. You discover truth everytime you use it." --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com From alecf at flett.org Sun Oct 11 06:36:52 2009 From: alecf at flett.org (Alec Flett) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:36:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Bioinformatics Python Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <1255195161.6428.29.camel@jim-laptop> <7ABBFF7D-BA14-4796-9F52-43E9E719DFBF@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: At some level, it isn't even that important the details of bioinformatics/etc so much as answering the question of what one does when one works in such a specialized field - what programs are you writing? Are they web based? Long running computations? Some combination? What kind of data is this? Is it noisy? What does day to day interactions with scientists look like? These have always just been things I've wondered, having always worked in very tech+product oriented startups Alec On Saturday, October 10, 2009, Rick Kwan wrote: > +1. ?I'll attend a SciPy, EuroSciPy, or basics of computational > biology in Python talk. > > --Rick Kwan > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >>>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Glen Jarvis >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> sent in a recent email and did some very basic BioPython and webqueries. >>>>> I >>> >>> On Oct 10, 2009, at 11:25 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: >>>> >>>> I think it sounds delightful! Both the basics with BioPython and the >>>> intro to Pymol. >>> >>> Striking a minor nerve here - it's "Biopython" with a lowercase 'p'. I >>> chose that spelling because I didn't want CamelCase in the name. >>> >>> And also, it's "PyMOL" ;) >> >> Of course my apologies. >> >> >> Glen >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From gopiindian86 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 09:26:08 2009 From: gopiindian86 at gmail.com (Gopinath R) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:56:08 +0530 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to python - neuron ring - help needed Message-ID: <6a438da70910120026p267bb8c6tb71370f70f31f368@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I am a newbie to python. i like to learn python strongly. which version is recommended to start with 2.6 or 3.0. I believe 3.0 has lot more features added, there is no backward compatibility in that. we cannot use some of the 2.6 syntaxes in that. for Example: raw_input. it worries me a lot. pls give some suggestion. Thanks, Neuron Ring, http://neuronring.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From voidref at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 09:43:19 2009 From: voidref at gmail.com (Alan Westbrook) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:43:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to python - neuron ring - help needed In-Reply-To: <6a438da70910120026p267bb8c6tb71370f70f31f368@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a438da70910120026p267bb8c6tb71370f70f31f368@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5df1e9b00910120043ja8db32bu82f1faa2f7a50666@mail.gmail.com> instead of raw_input() use input(). You can do anything in 3.0 you can do in 2.6, it just might be different. I would recommend learning 3.0: Look to the future, to infinity and beyond! Unless of course you expect to be doing production work with an existing 2.6 codebase that needs to be maintained. Alan On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:26 AM, Gopinath R wrote: > Hi all, > > I am a newbie to python. i like to learn python strongly. which version is > recommended to start with 2.6 or 3.0. > I believe 3.0 has lot more features added, there is no backward > compatibility in that. we cannot use some of the 2.6 syntaxes in that. for > Example: raw_input. it worries me a lot. pls give some suggestion. > > Thanks, > Neuron Ring, > http://neuronring.com > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From gopiindian86 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 10:40:12 2009 From: gopiindian86 at gmail.com (Gopinath R) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:10:12 +0530 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? Message-ID: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone, It is my pleasure finding this mailing list. I am a Open Source guy. but not an expert. I m strong in Shell Scripting. I need to learn one more open source language for excellent job opportunities. I am bit confused in choosing it. I need your suggestions i should go for PERL or PYTHON. Which one is powerful and will give you more job opportunities? Thanks, R.Gopinath http://neuronring.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From keith at dartworks.biz Mon Oct 12 11:32:05 2009 From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 02:32:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? In-Reply-To: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091012023205.7cfa67e7@dartworks.biz> === On Mon, 10/12, Gopinath R wrote: === > i should go for PERL or PYTHON. Which one is powerful and will give > you more job opportunities?? === Python, of course. See the trend: https://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?measure=commits&percent=&l0=perl&l1=python&l2=-1&l3=-1&l4=-1&commit=Update -- Keith Dart -- -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Keith Dart public key: ID: 19017044 ===================================================================== From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Oct 12 14:41:31 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 05:41:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to python - neuron ring - help needed In-Reply-To: <6a438da70910120026p267bb8c6tb71370f70f31f368@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a438da70910120026p267bb8c6tb71370f70f31f368@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091012124131.GA918@panix.com> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009, Gopinath R wrote: > > I am a newbie to python. i like to learn python strongly. which version is > recommended to start with 2.6 or 3.0. That depends largely on what you want to do. If you need to use external libraries, many have not yet been ported to 3.1 -- so overall, I recommend 2.6 for production use. (Note that I'm carefully referring to 3.1 because you do NOT want to use 3.0.) But in the end, it really doesn't matter which you *learn* -- the difference between 1.5.2 and 2.6 is in the end larger than the difference between 2.6 and 3.1, and 1.5.2 probably still has a larger userbase than 3.1. It's easier to write a Python application that runs on both 1.5.2 and 2.6 (largely by sticking with 1.5.2 idioms), but that's a distinction that makes little difference IMO. The overall overlap between 2.6 and 3.1 makes learning both 2.6 and 3.1 easier. Python has strong forward and backward compatibility, and the basics of what you're learning for the first month or two apply almost equally to 2.6 and 3.1. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "To me vi is Zen. To use vi is to practice zen. Every command is a koan. Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated. You discover truth everytime you use it." --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com From rich at noir.com Mon Oct 12 17:44:10 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 08:44:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? In-Reply-To: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> Python is a more powerful language. However, more companies are looking for people to help them with perl. This makes sense since perl is harder to use, less powerful, and less enjoyable to work with. --rich From glen at glenjarvis.com Mon Oct 12 17:57:47 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 08:57:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? In-Reply-To: <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> Message-ID: <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> You must realize that you're getting a very biased sample by asking the Python Interest group which language is better. I for one, *love* Python and don't like Perl. But, that's for personal reasons as much as any logical one (I think Python is cleaner, more intuitive and a joy to program in). I'd still be doing Python even if it wasn't growing within the industry. You may want to also ask this question from any Perl user groups to get a true balanced sample of opinions. I imagine most in a Perl forum would say that Perl is more powerful. Cheers, Glen From glen at glenjarvis.com Mon Oct 12 18:09:42 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:09:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Motion | Andrew to speak on Scientific computing? Message-ID: It seems we have both a very eager presenter and some interest in this whole scientific talk theme. I know of at least two people were were interested in such a talk. And, Andrew has graciously volunteered to give such a talk around Thanksgiving. Since he was an author of Biopython, he certainly has knowledge for what is needed. I don't know if this is enough interest for us to have a talk, but it's at least enough I can throw this out there and see what sticks. Here is the email Andrew originally posted: > For what it's worth, I'll be in the Bay Area around Thanksgiving and could give my EuroSciPy 2008 talk > "Python Tools in Computational Chemistry (and Biology)". Slides at > > http://www.euroscipy.org/download/2008/euroscipy2008_dalke_chemistry.pdf > > What's the status of the BayPIGgies meeting for November, given that the 4th Thursday is Thanksgiving? > > Andrew > dalke at dalkescientific.com I get the feeling that most people are more interested in this on a higher level and don't want to dig into so many details. But, I could be wrong on that too. (And, I don't see *how* to have this talk without getting into the details). Is there more interest? Jim, do you already have something else lined up? Cheers, Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walterv at gbbservices.com Mon Oct 12 18:04:42 2009 From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:04:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU Wednesday 'Functional Programming in Object-Oriented Code' Phil Goodwin Message-ID: <4AD3539A.10102@gbbservices.com> When: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 Topic: Functional Programming in Object-Oriented Code Speaker: Phil Goodwin Time: 6:30pm doors open 7:00pm meeting begins Where: Symantec VCAFE building 350 Ellis Street (near E. Middlefield Road) Mountain View, CA 94043 Map: Directions: VCAFE is accessible from the semicircular courtyard between Symantec buildings Cost: Free More Info: Phil will tell us how functional programming ideas can be used to improve code written in object oriented languages (like Java) that have little or no built in functional programming support. Phil Goodwin has been designing software for fifteen years. His projects have included libraries, APIs, app servers, standalone applications and web applications. He's been a developer at Sun, Google, LinkedIn, Replay Solutions, and now KaChing Group Inc. Meetings are open to the public and are free of charge. ---- Upcoming ACCU talks ----- Wednesday, November 11, 2009 Bill Venners "Getting Higher With ScalaTest" --------- The ACCU meets monthly. Meetings are always open to the public and are free of charge. To suggest topics and speakers please email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com From jim at well.com Mon Oct 12 18:34:09 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:34:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Motion | Andrew to speak on Scientific computing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1255365249.6428.185.camel@jim-laptop> so far what we've got is tentative. this seems a good candidate for our november 19 meeting (the third, not the fourth thursday of november). glen, can you run with this: is he really free to give this talk on that date? seems to me we like talks with code examples and techniques: what important modules are there, any caveats to their use? got code snippet examples? On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 09:09 -0700, Glen Jarvis wrote: > It seems we have both a very eager presenter and some interest in this > whole scientific talk theme. I know of at least two people were were > interested in such a talk. > > > And, Andrew has graciously volunteered to give such a talk around > Thanksgiving. Since he was an author of Biopython, he certainly has > knowledge for what is needed. > > > I don't know if this is enough interest for us to have a talk, but > it's at least enough I can throw this out there and see what sticks. > Here is the email Andrew originally posted: > > > > > > For what it's worth, I'll be in the Bay Area around Thanksgiving and > could give my EuroSciPy 2008 talk > > "Python Tools in Computational Chemistry (and Biology)". Slides at > > > > http://www.euroscipy.org/download/2008/euroscipy2008_dalke_chemistry.pdf > > > > What's the status of the BayPIGgies meeting for November, given that > the 4th Thursday is Thanksgiving? > > > > Andrew > > dalke at dalkescientific.com > > > I get the feeling that most people are more interested in this on a > higher level and don't want to dig into so many details. But, I could > be wrong on that too. (And, I don't see *how* to have this talk > without getting into the details). > > > Is there more interest? Jim, do you already have something else lined > up? > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Glen > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From dalke at dalkescientific.com Mon Oct 12 20:15:35 2009 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:15:35 +0200 Subject: [Baypiggies] Motion | Andrew to speak on Scientific computing? In-Reply-To: <1255365249.6428.185.camel@jim-laptop> References: <1255365249.6428.185.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <5C34F748-7D96-42C0-916A-4748DC8363CA@dalkescientific.com> On Oct 12, 2009, at 6:34 PM, jim wrote: > so far what we've got is tentative. this seems > a good candidate for our november 19 meeting (the > third, not the fourth thursday of november). I would like to do this. > glen, can you run with this: is he really free > to give this talk on that date? I am, but I would like to know soon as I'm putting my Thanksgiving travel together now. > seems to me we > like talks with code examples and techniques: what > important modules are there, any caveats to their > use? got code snippet examples? My plan was to cover some of the software involved in computational chemistry and biology, give an idea of a few of the basic problems from a programming sense, and perhaps some commentary about what it's like to develop software for scientists. It would be a modification of my EuroSciPy 2008 talk, at http://www.euroscipy.org/download/2008/ euroscipy2008_dalke_chemistry.pdf As for code examples, there's not much I can show off since it really requires some knowledge of the science. How much time would I have? If Glen shows up then he could help show off some of the software involved. PyMOL makes for some great demos, but I haven't used it for much since I'm no longer in that subfield. Andrew dalke at dalkescientific.com From jim at well.com Mon Oct 12 21:21:02 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:21:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Motion | Andrew to speak on Scientific computing? In-Reply-To: <5C34F748-7D96-42C0-916A-4748DC8363CA@dalkescientific.com> References: <1255365249.6428.185.camel@jim-laptop> <5C34F748-7D96-42C0-916A-4748DC8363CA@dalkescientific.com> Message-ID: <1255375262.6350.9.camel@jim-laptop> comments interspersed below: On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 20:15 +0200, Andrew Dalke wrote: > On Oct 12, 2009, at 6:34 PM, jim wrote: > > so far what we've got is tentative. this seems > > a good candidate for our november 19 meeting (the > > third, not the fourth thursday of november). > > I would like to do this. > > > glen, can you run with this: is he really free > > to give this talk on that date? > I am, but I would like to know soon as I'm putting my Thanksgiving > travel together now. JS: we're saying "yes"; please confirm you'll give a talk at the VCafe in Mountain View on November 19. meeting starts at 7:30 PM. newbie nugget presentation from 7:35 to 7:45 or so. main presentation (your talk) after newbie nugget until done, typically 45 to 60 minutes, can go a bit longer. > > seems to me we > > like talks with code examples and techniques: what > > important modules are there, any caveats to their > > use? got code snippet examples? > > > My plan was to cover some of the software involved in computational > chemistry and biology, give an idea of a few of the basic problems > from a programming sense, and perhaps some commentary about what it's > like to develop software for scientists. It would be a modification > of my EuroSciPy 2008 talk, at > > http://www.euroscipy.org/download/2008/ > euroscipy2008_dalke_chemistry.pdf > > As for code examples, there's not much I can show off since it really > requires some knowledge of the science. JS: main thing is a python-orientation. remember that those in the audience who are in other fields are likely more interested in your talk if there's a python twist to things here and there. > > How much time would I have? JS: hopefully at least 45 minutes and welcome to more, probably not much over 60; the time is there for you. better a little long than rushed. > > If Glen shows up then he could help show off some of the software > involved. PyMOL makes for some great demos, but I haven't used it for > much since I'm no longer in that subfield. JS: i certainly hope glen shows up: maybe he could cook up a PyMOL newbie nugget. > > Andrew > dalke at dalkescientific.com > > From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Oct 13 21:33:17 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:33:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] FWD: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon 2010 US - Call For Tutorials Ending Soon Message-ID: <20091013193317.GA8881@panix.com> ----- Forwarded message from Greg Lindstrom ----- Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:09:18 -0500 From: Greg Lindstrom To: PyCon Tutorial List , pycon-organizers , python-announce-list at python.org, python-list at python.org Subject: [PyCon-Organizers] PyCon 2010 US - Call For Tutorials Ending Soon The period to submit proposals to teach a tutorial at PyCon 2010 US ends on Sunday, October 18th. There is still time for you to get a proposal on your favorite Python topic and teach a 3-hour class (with breaks and refreshments) to your colleagues on the Wednesday or Thursday before the conference ("Tutorial Days"). An example proposal (and a blank template) can be found at http://us.pycon.org/2010/tutorials/proposals/ . Thanks! Greg Lindstrom _______________________________________________ PyCon-organizers mailing list PyCon-organizers at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "To me vi is Zen. To use vi is to practice zen. Every command is a koan. Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated. You discover truth everytime you use it." --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com From dalke at dalkescientific.com Wed Oct 14 01:25:10 2009 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:25:10 +0200 Subject: [Baypiggies] Motion | Andrew to speak on Scientific computing? In-Reply-To: <1255375262.6350.9.camel@jim-laptop> References: <1255365249.6428.185.camel@jim-laptop> <5C34F748-7D96-42C0-916A-4748DC8363CA@dalkescientific.com> <1255375262.6350.9.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: On Oct 12, 2009, at 9:21 PM, jim wrote: > JS: we're saying "yes"; please confirm you'll give > a talk at the VCafe in Mountain View on November 19. I confirm. Had to make sure I had transportation for that evening. > JS: main thing is a python-orientation. remember that > those in the audience who are in other fields are likely > more interested in your talk if there's a python twist > to things here and there. Well, it is based on the talk I gave at EuroSciPy, so it's definitely about Python, but it focuses more on what some of the basic problems are scientifically and software-wise, some of the Python tools that are available and some of the reasons people use something other than Python, and as well some commentary about being a scientific software developer. I'm also hoping that Glen and I will coordinate to show some of the cooler tools that are available. > JS: hopefully at least 45 minutes and welcome to more, > probably not much over 60; the time is there for you. > better a little long than rushed. No prob. My original talk was 30 minutes, so just need to include a few more things. See you all then! Andrew dalke at dalkescientific.com From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 10:34:55 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:34:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Motion | Andrew to speak on Scientific computing? In-Reply-To: References: <1255365249.6428.185.camel@jim-laptop> <5C34F748-7D96-42C0-916A-4748DC8363CA@dalkescientific.com> <1255375262.6350.9.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: I like the idea of this talk. Remember, the author of PyMOL, Warren DeLano, is not only local, he's a BayPiggie ;) -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 10:39:20 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:39:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? In-Reply-To: <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: Python is definitely growing like crazy, and Perl is definitely a bit stagnant. I used to be fairly fluent in Perl, but I've officially deprecated my knowledge of Perl and PHP in favor of Python and Ruby. Python is still the more universally useful of the two. As a friend of mine told me recently, *all* film studios now make use of Python. I suggest you only code in Perl if you absolutely have to. -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 10:43:17 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:43:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to python - neuron ring - help needed In-Reply-To: <20091012124131.GA918@panix.com> References: <6a438da70910120026p267bb8c6tb71370f70f31f368@mail.gmail.com> <20091012124131.GA918@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Aahz wrote: > On Mon, Oct 12, 2009, Gopinath R wrote: >> >> I am a newbie to python. i like to learn python strongly. which version is >> recommended to start with 2.6 or 3.0. > > That depends largely on what you want to do. ?If you need to use external > libraries, many have not yet been ported to 3.1 -- so overall, I > recommend 2.6 for production use. ?(Note that I'm carefully referring to > 3.1 because you do NOT want to use 3.0.) > > But in the end, it really doesn't matter which you *learn* -- the > difference between 1.5.2 and 2.6 is in the end larger than the difference > between 2.6 and 3.1, and 1.5.2 probably still has a larger userbase than > 3.1. ?It's easier to write a Python application that runs on both 1.5.2 > and 2.6 (largely by sticking with 1.5.2 idioms), but that's a distinction > that makes little difference IMO. ?The overall overlap between 2.6 and > 3.1 makes learning both 2.6 and 3.1 easier. > > Python has strong forward and backward compatibility, and the basics of > what you're learning for the first month or two apply almost equally to > 2.6 and 3.1. Very few people are using 3.1 yet because the libraries haven't made the transition. As Aahz said, it's not that big a deal. I really like the book "Learning Python". By the latest version, read it cover-to-cover, do all the exercises, and you'll be an expert. If you don't know how to program at all yet, I recommend "Python Programming: An Introduction to Computer Science". Best Regards, -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From warren at delsci.com Wed Oct 14 15:09:30 2009 From: warren at delsci.com (Warren DeLano) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:09:30 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] Motion | Andrew to speak on Scientific computing? In-Reply-To: <5066506580664DA7AD6270F029BE5C2E@delsci.local> References: <1255365249.6428.185.camel@jim-laptop> <5C34F748-7D96-42C0-916A-4748DC8363CA@dalkescientific.com> <1255375262.6350.9.camel@jim-laptop> <5066506580664DA7AD6270F029BE5C2E@delsci.local> Message-ID: Here! Schedule permitting, I'd be happy to give a baypiggies preso on pymol, either together with Andrew or another time. Cheers, Warren -- Warren L. DeLano, Ph.D. warren at delsci.com (Sent from an iPhone -- please forgive brevity and/or typos!) On Oct 14, 2009, at 8:03 AM, "Shannon -jj Behrens" wrote: > I like the idea of this talk. Remember, the author of PyMOL, Warren > DeLano, is not only local, he's a BayPiggie ;) > > -jj > > -- > In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things > with great love. -- Mother Teresa > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ > > From tony at tcapp.com Wed Oct 14 16:16:44 2009 From: tony at tcapp.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 07:16:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? In-Reply-To: References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> > > >>As a friend of mine told me recently, *all* film studios now make use of > Python. > > So why do movies still cost $10+, if Python makes those employees more productive? Movies were cheaper when they were using "lesser languages" ;-)))))))))))) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at noir.com Wed Oct 14 18:07:05 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:07:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> Tony Cappellini wrote: > > >>As a friend of mine told me recently, *all* film studios now > make use of Python. > > So why do movies still cost $10+, if Python makes those employees more > productive? > Movies were cheaper when they were using "lesser languages" ;-)))))))))))) Movie development time is like disk space. No matter how much you have, you'll always run out and need to do some juggling to make it all fit in. --rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slander at unworkable.org Wed Oct 14 19:42:19 2009 From: slander at unworkable.org (Harry Tormey) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:42:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? In-Reply-To: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091014174219.GA888@unworkable.org> Asking this on a Python mailing list might just get you a biased answer ;) Here is a pretty graph: http://blog.timbunce.org/2008/02/12/comparative-language-job-trend-graphs/ On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 02:10:12PM +0530, Gopinath R wrote: > Hi everyone, > > It is my pleasure finding this mailing list. I am a Open Source guy. but not > an expert. I m strong in Shell Scripting. I need to learn one more open > source language for excellent job opportunities. > > I am bit confused in choosing it. I need your suggestions > > i should go for PERL or PYTHON. Which one is powerful and will give you more > job opportunities? > > Thanks, > R.Gopinath > http://neuronring.com > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- Harry Tormey Co Founder P2P Research http://p2presearch.com Founder PyGameSF http://pygamesf.org Software Engineer Digidesign http://digidesign.com From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Wed Oct 14 20:06:12 2009 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:06:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Java or Python? (was: PERL or PYTHON) In-Reply-To: <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> Message-ID: How about Java v.s. Python? Obviously I'm not looking for unbiased unanswer :) I just want to hear more opinion. A few years ago the job market of Java v.s. Python is like 97% to 3%. I think Python has made significant gain since then. All those tasks that are very involving in Java, like doing web services, especially with ws-* protocol, become fairly trivial in Python. Outside of work I have started a number of geeky projects, all of them are base on Python. I haven't touched Java in a few years and I wonder how does it fair today. Wai Yip From rich.pixley at palm.com Wed Oct 14 20:34:05 2009 From: rich.pixley at palm.com (Rich Pixley) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:34:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Java or Python? In-Reply-To: References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> Message-ID: <4AD6199D.4030609@palm.com> I think it's similar. The python community is small and esoteric by comparison to the corporate java world. Java is the new cobol. Most internal corporate apps, custom apps, etc, and many external apps are still being written in it. It's no accident that the computer architecture that goes with java mirrors what went with cobol. There will never be a dearth of jobs for people willing to write apps. Personally, I think java's ok for a scripting language. Much better than perl. But lacks the functional programming aspects of python like first class aggregate data structures, iterators, etc. (I really miss goal oriented expressions from icon, but iterators are an excellent substitute). However, I don't think java makes for a very good general purpose or systems programming language. C still holds the lead on that front and probably will forever, in much the same way that assembler is still used at the back end of compiler technology and inline in many os bits, device drivers, and low level library calls. Eventually, our programming paradigms will change, (some may argue they already have), and we'll see other things take over. But C and assembler will almost certainly outlive each of us. If your primary or only goal is marketability, java's probably a better choice. --rich From janssen at parc.com Wed Oct 14 20:53:58 2009 From: janssen at parc.com (Bill Janssen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:53:58 PDT Subject: [Baypiggies] Java or Python? In-Reply-To: <4AD6199D.4030609@palm.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> <4AD6199D.4030609@palm.com> Message-ID: <76145.1255546438@parc.com> Rich Pixley wrote: > Personally, I think java's ok for a scripting language. Much better > than perl. But lacks the functional programming aspects of python > like first class aggregate data structures, iterators, etc. I recently came across a 16-page if-then-else piece of Java code, apparently written that way because of Java's lack of support for hash-table literals... Bill From slander at unworkable.org Wed Oct 14 20:59:28 2009 From: slander at unworkable.org (Harry Tormey) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:59:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Java or Python? In-Reply-To: <76145.1255546438@parc.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> <4AD6199D.4030609@palm.com> <76145.1255546438@parc.com> Message-ID: <20091014185928.GA175@unworkable.org> It will be interesting to watch what gets built on the JVM over the next few years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jython#Overview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scala_(programming_language)#Platforms_and_license On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:53:58AM -0700, Bill Janssen wrote: > Rich Pixley wrote: > > > Personally, I think java's ok for a scripting language. Much better > > than perl. But lacks the functional programming aspects of python > > like first class aggregate data structures, iterators, etc. > > I recently came across a 16-page if-then-else piece of Java code, > apparently written that way because of Java's lack of support for > hash-table literals... > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- Harry Tormey Co Founder P2P Research http://p2presearch.com Founder PyGameSF http://pygamesf.org Software Engineer Digidesign http://digidesign.com From rich at noir.com Wed Oct 14 21:00:35 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:00:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Java or Python? In-Reply-To: <76145.1255546438@parc.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> <4AD6199D.4030609@palm.com> <76145.1255546438@parc.com> Message-ID: <4AD61FD3.7080904@noir.com> Bill Janssen wrote: > I recently came across a 16-page if-then-else piece of Java code, > apparently written that way because of Java's lack of support for > hash-table literals... Bad programming style is just bad programming style. Choice of language can help, to some degree, but it can't prevent bad programming style. We learned that with pascal, modula-2 & 3, and ada, didn't we? Like programming with mittens on. I've used that same analogy to describe java. --rich From Tim.Norman at dreamworks.com Wed Oct 14 20:06:10 2009 From: Tim.Norman at dreamworks.com (Norman, Tim) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:06:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Does anyone a good Configuration Manager with Python? In-Reply-To: <20091014174219.GA888@unworkable.org> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <20091014174219.GA888@unworkable.org> Message-ID: <57E24B0263A3594EB66EEABC419CA4072D895274E6@EXCLUSGLD1.win.dreamworks.com> Hello, all. I hope everyone is well. I am the Technical Recruiter at Dreamworks Animation. I am looking for a Configuration Manager with good Python for a consulting assignment at our Redwood City Studio. There are many CM folks out there but not many with Python. Any help is appreciated. Tim- Tim Norman Dreamworks Animation Ph 818.695 7801 www.dreamworks.com From walterv at gbbservices.com Wed Oct 14 19:46:02 2009 From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:46:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU tonight 'Functional Programming in Object-Oriented Code' Phil Goodwin Message-ID: <4AD60E5A.6080701@gbbservices.com> When: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 Topic: Functional Programming in Object-Oriented Code Speaker: Phil Goodwin Time: 6:30pm doors open 7:00pm meeting begins Where: Symantec VCAFE building 350 Ellis Street (near E. Middlefield Road) Mountain View, CA 94043 Map: Directions: VCAFE is accessible from the semicircular courtyard between Symantec buildings Cost: Free More Info: Phil will tell us how functional programming ideas can be used to improve code written in object oriented languages (like Java) that have little or no built in functional programming support. Phil Goodwin has been designing software for fifteen years. His projects have included libraries, APIs, app servers, standalone applications and web applications. He's been a developer at Sun, Google, LinkedIn, Replay Solutions, and now KaChing Group Inc. Meetings are open to the public and are free of charge. ---- Upcoming ACCU talks ----- Wednesday, November 11, 2009 Bill Venners "Getting Higher With ScalaTest" Wednesday, December 9, 2009 Ralph Duncan "packetC for Network Applications" --------- The ACCU meets monthly. Meetings are always open to the public and are free of charge. To suggest topics and speakers please email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com From echerlin at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 03:23:51 2009 From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:23:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Motion | Andrew to speak on Scientific computing? In-Reply-To: References: <1255365249.6428.185.camel@jim-laptop> <5C34F748-7D96-42C0-916A-4748DC8363CA@dalkescientific.com> <1255375262.6350.9.camel@jim-laptop> <5066506580664DA7AD6270F029BE5C2E@delsci.local> Message-ID: I would like to give a presentation sometime on Learning Python in Elementary School. We had a good crowd of children, parents, and teachers at Silicon Valley Code Camp recently for my first version. The tools for learning Python in Sugar include o Python-programmable tiles in Turtle Art o Pippy Python editor with tutorial examples o Lots of source code o Free textbooks I would show the progression through the early TA and Pippy stages, with code examples. On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 06:09, Warren DeLano wrote: > Here! Schedule permitting, I'd be happy to give a baypiggies preso on pymol, > either together with Andrew or another time. > > Cheers, > Warren > -- > Warren L. DeLano, Ph.D. > warren at delsci.com > > (Sent from an iPhone -- please forgive brevity and/or typos!) > > On Oct 14, 2009, at 8:03 AM, "Shannon -jj Behrens" wrote: > >> I like the idea of this talk. ?Remember, the author of PyMOL, Warren >> DeLano, is not only local, he's a BayPiggie ;) >> >> -jj >> >> -- >> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things >> with great love. -- Mother Teresa >> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Edward Mokurai (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://earthtreasury.org/ From jim at well.com Thu Oct 15 18:17:04 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:17:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Motion | Andrew to speak on Scientific computing? In-Reply-To: References: <1255365249.6428.185.camel@jim-laptop> <5C34F748-7D96-42C0-916A-4748DC8363CA@dalkescientific.com> <1255375262.6350.9.camel@jim-laptop> <5066506580664DA7AD6270F029BE5C2E@delsci.local> Message-ID: <1255623424.6487.9.camel@jim-laptop> +1 i think this would be great. i saw ed give a talk to the OLPC-SF group and liked it a lot. things are changing on these fronts (education, OLPC, Sugar), and i'm for keeping up on the news. On Wed, 2009-10-14 at 18:23 -0700, Edward Cherlin wrote: > I would like to give a presentation sometime on Learning Python in > Elementary School. We had a good crowd of children, parents, and > teachers at Silicon Valley Code Camp recently for my first version. > The tools for learning Python in Sugar include > > o Python-programmable tiles in Turtle Art > o Pippy Python editor with tutorial examples > o Lots of source code > o Free textbooks > > I would show the progression through the early TA and Pippy stages, > with code examples. > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 06:09, Warren DeLano wrote: > > Here! Schedule permitting, I'd be happy to give a baypiggies preso on pymol, > > either together with Andrew or another time. > > > > Cheers, > > Warren > > -- > > Warren L. DeLano, Ph.D. > > warren at delsci.com > > > > (Sent from an iPhone -- please forgive brevity and/or typos!) > > > > On Oct 14, 2009, at 8:03 AM, "Shannon -jj Behrens" wrote: > > > >> I like the idea of this talk. Remember, the author of PyMOL, Warren > >> DeLano, is not only local, he's a BayPiggie ;) > >> > >> -jj > >> > >> -- > >> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things > >> with great love. -- Mother Teresa > >> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > -- > Edward Mokurai (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) Cherlin > Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. > The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. > http://earthtreasury.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From glen at glenjarvis.com Thu Oct 15 22:03:23 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:03:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python newgroup quick question/answer? Message-ID: I know.. I know.. RTFM :) I usually do the digging myself. However, I'm not finding what I think is probably there. My users are in two Linux groups, A and B. The script that I'm writing should log them into B (newgrp B from the linux prompt). Since Python 'fits your brain,' generally, I would expect something like os.newgroup('B'), os.newgrp('B'), or os.logingroup('B'). I'm not finding, it, however. Anyone know this off the top of their head? If there's no library, am I guaranteed to retain the group if I use subprocess? Cheers, Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Thu Oct 15 22:12:51 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:12:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python newgroup quick question/answer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: BTW.... I already know about the following (and wrote the following code). I'd rather log them into the group during the execution of the script, though, if I could: # Must be logged into bpg group if not os.getgid() == _BPG_GID: sys.stderr.write( "\nERROR: You must be logged into bpg group! See: man newgrp\n\n") sys.exit(1) Cheers, Glen On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > I know.. I know.. RTFM :) I usually do the digging myself. However, I'm > not finding what I think is probably there. > My users are in two Linux groups, A and B. The script that I'm writing > should log them into B (newgrp B from the linux prompt). > > Since Python 'fits your brain,' generally, I would expect something like > os.newgroup('B'), os.newgrp('B'), or os.logingroup('B'). I'm not finding, > it, however. > > > Anyone know this off the top of their head? > > If there's no library, am I guaranteed to retain the group if I use > subprocess? > > > Cheers, > > > Glen > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bsergean at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 22:27:57 2009 From: bsergean at gmail.com (Benjamin Sergeant) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:27:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python newgroup quick question/answer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1621f9fa0910151327o5f662637qc9236e667ae031de@mail.gmail.com> A good place to dig for samples of the group module usage is probably http://www.doughellmann.com/PyMOTW/grp/index.html - Benjamin On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > BTW.... > ?? I already know about the following (and wrote the following code). I'd > rather log them into the group during the execution of the script, though, > if I could: > ?? ?# Must be logged into bpg group > ?? ?if not os.getgid() == _BPG_GID: > ?? ? ? ?sys.stderr.write( > ?? ? ? ? ? ?"\nERROR: You must be logged into bpg group! See: man > newgrp\n\n") > ?? ? ? ?sys.exit(1) > > Cheers, > > Glen > On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> >> I know.. I know.. RTFM :) ?I usually do the digging myself. However, I'm >> not finding what I think is probably there. >> My users are in two Linux groups, A and B. The script that I'm writing >> should log them into B (newgrp B from the linux prompt). >> Since Python 'fits your brain,' generally, I would expect something like >> os.newgroup('B'), os.newgrp('B'), or os.logingroup('B'). I'm not finding, >> it, however. >> >> Anyone know this off the top of their head? >> If there's no library, am I guaranteed to retain the group if I use >> subprocess? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Glen > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From rich.pixley at palm.com Thu Oct 15 22:49:19 2009 From: rich.pixley at palm.com (Rich Pixley) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:49:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python newgroup quick question/answer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD78ACF.7010207@palm.com> Skip python. Just set the sticky bit on the executable script to sgid B. --rich Glen Jarvis wrote: > I know.. I know.. RTFM :) I usually do the digging myself. However, > I'm not finding what I think is probably there. > > My users are in two Linux groups, A and B. The script that I'm writing > should log them into B (newgrp B from the linux prompt). > > Since Python 'fits your brain,' generally, I would expect something > like os.newgroup('B'), os.newgrp('B'), or os.logingroup('B'). I'm not > finding, it, however. > > > Anyone know this off the top of their head? > > If there's no library, am I guaranteed to retain the group if I use > subprocess? > > > Cheers, > > > Glen From rich.pixley at palm.com Thu Oct 15 22:51:40 2009 From: rich.pixley at palm.com (Rich Pixley) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:51:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python newgroup quick question/answer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD78B5C.5040104@palm.com> For the python answer, look to the linux kernel call, which is setgid(2). In python, os.setgid. http://docs.python.org/library/os.html?highlight=os.setgid#os.setgid --rich From resmith at runbox.com Thu Oct 15 23:34:07 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 48, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > It will be interesting to watch what gets built on the JVM over the > next few years: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jython#Overview I think Jython (initially JPython) is the first language written for the JVM (besides Java of course). For a while it was lagging quite a few versions behind CPython but seems to be catching up (2.5.1) now that Sun is supporting development. Sun is also supporting JRuby development: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JRuby Another dynamically-typed JVM language is Groovy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groovy_%28programming_language%29 Judging from the number of books Amazon has - 6 Groovy and 5 on a Groovy framework called GRails (which mimics Ruby on Rails) - it seems to be pretty popular. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scala_(programming_language)#Platforms_and_license The person who started Java (James Gosling) said in an interview that Scala (statically-typed) is the new JVM language that he is most impressed by. From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 10:01:26 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 01:01:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Java or Python? (was: PERL or PYTHON) In-Reply-To: References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Tung Wai Yip wrote: > How about Java v.s. Python? Obviously I'm not looking for unbiased unanswer :) I just want to hear more opinion. > > A few years ago the job market of Java v.s. Python is like 97% to 3%. I think Python has made significant gain since then. All those tasks that are very involving in Java, like doing web services, especially with ws-* protocol, become fairly trivial in Python. Outside of work I have started a number of geeky projects, all of them are base on Python. I haven't touched Java in a few years and I wonder how does it fair today. (This is all stuff you know, I'm sure:) Years ago, I was reading a Java Swing book. There was this great little example where they built a simple IDE. I translated it into Jython, and I cut the number of lines in one third. In the book "RESTful Web Services", there's are examples written in Python, Ruby, Java, etc. Once again, the Python code is half the size of the Java code. Sure, there are lots of jobs in the Java world. Thankfully, there's very rarely a shortage of jobs in the Python world. Let's be grateful for that, and stick with the nicer language. (The only place where Java has Python beat is that it performs better. Thankfully, that's rarely an issue for me since I usually have to worry a lot more about scalability than performance.) -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 10:05:57 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 01:05:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? In-Reply-To: <20091014174219.GA888@unworkable.org> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <20091014174219.GA888@unworkable.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Harry Tormey wrote: > Asking this on a Python mailing list might just get you a biased > answer ;) > > Here is a pretty graph: > > http://blog.timbunce.org/2008/02/12/comparative-language-job-trend-graphs/ Always remember that jobs are a trailing indicator of a language's success. There are lots of horrendous C++ codebases that you can get paid to work on. Heck, I have *multiple* friends who still get paid to write COBOL ;) -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Oct 16 19:01:31 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:01:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Java or Python? (was: PERL or PYTHON) In-Reply-To: References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> Message-ID: > (The only place where Java has Python beat is that it performs better. > Thankfully, that's rarely an issue for me since I usually have to > worry a lot more about scalability than performance.) > And that may, theoretically, change with the Unladen Swallow project. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff at drinktomi.com Fri Oct 16 19:40:26 2009 From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff Younker) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:40:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? In-Reply-To: References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <20091014174219.GA888@unworkable.org> Message-ID: <7D4FA337-36DE-47EB-9F48-4CDC40D33E2B@drinktomi.com> On Oct 16, 2009, at 1:05 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Harry Tormey > wrote: >> Asking this on a Python mailing list might just get you a biased >> answer ;) >> >> Here is a pretty graph: >> >> http://blog.timbunce.org/2008/02/12/comparative-language-job-trend-graphs/ > > Always remember that jobs are a trailing indicator of a language's > success. There are lots of horrendous C++ codebases that you can get > paid to work on. Heck, I have *multiple* friends who still get paid > to write COBOL ;) What does that say about Python? -jeff From cappy2112 at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 20:36:26 2009 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:36:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Hacker Dojo in the Mercury News today Message-ID: <8249c4ac0910161136u182ea569te1a4160f795794df@mail.gmail.com> http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_13573588 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsnitow at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 02:45:41 2009 From: jsnitow at gmail.com (Julian Snitow) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 17:45:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PERL or PYTHON ? In-Reply-To: <7D4FA337-36DE-47EB-9F48-4CDC40D33E2B@drinktomi.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <20091014174219.GA888@unworkable.org> <7D4FA337-36DE-47EB-9F48-4CDC40D33E2B@drinktomi.com> Message-ID: <54075e090910161745p779980bag871484b545161e23@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Jeff Younker wrote: > On Oct 16, 2009, at 1:05 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> >> Always remember that jobs are a trailing indicator of a language's >> success. ?There are lots of horrendous C++ codebases that you can get >> paid to work on. ?Heck, I have *multiple* friends who still get paid >> to write COBOL ;) > > What does that say about Python? > Naturally, the job market for Python suffers from a language that people willingly use even without monetary inducement. ;) From john_re at fastmail.us Sun Oct 18 08:09:39 2009 From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:09:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Sunday 18th 12N-3P PDST Global Python Mtg - BerkeleyTIP - for forwarding Message-ID: <1255846179.26753.1340646901@webmail.messagingengine.com> Join the global Free SW HW & Culture meeting online via VOIP & IRC. Sunday Oct 18, 12N-3P Pacific Daylight Savings Time (UTC-8), 3P-6P Eastern, (7P-10P UTC?) http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/remote-attendance Or, come to the UCBerkeley Free Speech Cafe. Discuss the videos, work on your own projects & share them with others, & help work on the group projects. Get a VOIP headset, & join the #berkeleytip channel on irc.freenode.net We'll help you install VOIP client SW, & join the global meeting. Join with the meeting from your home via VOIP, or create a local meeting at your local college wifi cafe. http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/schedule I finally got some posters up around campus. :) ===== Talk/Video October: Open Source-and-Mac Other OSs http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/OpenSource-and-Mac-Alternatives-to-Windows-7-649233/ http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/talk-videos ===== Some Topics for discussion: How get better WiFi at FSC - talk to UCB net services? FreeSwitch install on UCB box KUbuntu 9.10 out this month Plan for a UCB installfest - leaders, helpers, announcements Flyers post throughout campus beginning November? SSL & OpenVPN on UCB box ===== Join the mailing lists & say hi, tell us what you are interested in. http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal You are invited to forward this message anywhere it would be welcomed. :) From niallo at unworkable.org Mon Oct 19 20:20:29 2009 From: niallo at unworkable.org (Niall O'Higgins) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:20:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Py Web SF #5: Ben Bangert "Pylons", Almir Karic "GAE Quirks" Message-ID: <20091019182029.GZ13155@unworkable.org> Hi folks, PyWebSF is a Python meet-up with a strong focus on Web technology. From frameworks like WSGI/Pylons/TurboGears/Django to libraries like httplib2 to using emerging Web technologies like Amazon's AWS and Freebase - its all covered. The emphasis is on practical, hands-on lectures and discussion. Meetings start with one or two 30-40 minute presentations and end with informal discussion. Hackathon-style collaboration and project demos are encouraged. Who/What -------- * Ben Bangert - "Pylons" http://www.pywebsf.org/2009/10/17/ben-bangert-pylons/ * Almir Karic - "Google App Engine Quirks" http://www.pywebsf.org/2009/10/17/almir-karic-google-app-engine-quirks/ When ---- 6PM, Tuesday 20 October 2009. Please try to arrive on time to avoid disappointment. We have space for around 10-20 people. Where ----- Stong conference room, 1st floor, SF Main Public Library. Map: http://tinyurl.com/pywebsfmap The library is easily accessible via both BART and Muni at the Civic Center station. The library closes at 8pm so we will continue the discussion over food/drinks at Frjtz Fries [http://www.frjtzfries.com]. More info --------- Subscribe to our Google Calendar at http://tinyurl.com/pywebcal Slides, links, and more at http://pywebsf.org/ Thanks! -- Niall O'Higgins PyWebSF http://pywebsf.org http://niallohiggins.com http://twitter.com/niallohiggins From jim at well.com Wed Oct 21 16:32:22 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 07:32:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development Message-ID: <1256135542.6478.69.camel@jim-laptop> BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development Tonight's talk is * Django Development Richard Kiss -- Django templating Eddy Mulyono -- django.contrib.databrowse Glen Jarvis -- South (Django database migration tool) Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. Tonight's Newbie Nugget: included in Richard Kiss' introduction LOCATION Symantec Corporation Symantec Vcafe 350 Ellis Street Mountain View, CA 94043 http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18 BayPIGgies meeting information is available at http://baypiggies.net/new/plone ------------------------ Agenda ------------------------ ..... 7:30 PM ........................... General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, any first-minute announcements. ..... 7:35 PM to 8:45 PM ................ Title: Django Development Richard Kiss -- Django templating Eddy Mulyono -- Django.contrib.databrowse Glen Jarvis -- South (Django database migration tool) Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps ..... 8:45 PM to 9:20 PM ................ Mapping and Random Access Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics that the announcers are interested in. Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually on the announcements and other topics of interest. From jim at well.com Wed Oct 21 16:50:56 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 07:50:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday October 22, 2009: Django Development Message-ID: <1256136656.6478.123.camel@jim-laptop> Apologies: BayPIGgies meets this Thursday, October 22, 2009 From jaime at chompapps.com Thu Oct 22 03:36:17 2009 From: jaime at chompapps.com (Jaime Bott) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:36:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Developer in San Francisco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: San Francisco-based contract Python Developer role available. More info here: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dtc9xms_77hsrm8pc3. Thanks! -- Jaime Bott www.jaimebott.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meenalpant at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 18:53:11 2009 From: meenalpant at gmail.com (Meenal Pant) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:53:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development In-Reply-To: <1256135542.6478.69.camel@jim-laptop> References: <1256135542.6478.69.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: Will tonight's talk be recorded ? Please ? Thanks Meenal On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:32 AM, jim wrote: > > BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development > > > Tonight's talk is > * Django Development > > Richard Kiss -- Django templating > Eddy Mulyono -- django.contrib.databrowse > Glen Jarvis -- South (Django database migration tool) > Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps > > > Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an > essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. > Tonight's Newbie Nugget: included in Richard Kiss' introduction > > LOCATION > Symantec Corporation > Symantec Vcafe > 350 Ellis Street > Mountain View, CA 94043 > http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18 > > BayPIGgies meeting information is available at > http://baypiggies.net/new/plone > > > ------------------------ Agenda ------------------------ > > ..... 7:30 PM ........................... > General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, any > first-minute announcements. > > > ..... 7:35 PM to 8:45 PM ................ > > Title: Django Development > Richard Kiss -- ? ?Django templating > Eddy Mulyono -- ? ?Django.contrib.databrowse > Glen Jarvis -- ? ? South (Django database migration tool) > Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps > > > ..... 8:45 PM to 9:20 PM ?................ > Mapping and Random Access > > Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics that > the announcers are interested in. > > Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually > on the announcements and other topics of interest. > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From glen at glenjarvis.com Thu Oct 22 20:01:52 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:01:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development In-Reply-To: References: <1256135542.6478.69.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: I have the video equipment with me. I have the audio microphone batteries with me. I have charged the camera batteries. And, I am hoping to get there early enough so I can set up the camera, and still prepare for my presentation. If someone has an extra macbook with Garage Band on it, I'd be helpful to have for the microphone input (I've had better luck with this than with just the audio into the camera - tapes run out and we still have audio at times -- with slides we can paste it together). So, if you (anyone on BayPIGgies) have an extra macbook with Garage Band and enough disk space for four fifteen minute audio segments, I could use the help tonight. Wanna be in charge of recording the audio from the wireless microphone? Cheers, Glen On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Meenal Pant wrote: > Will tonight's talk be recorded ? Please ? > Thanks > Meenal > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:32 AM, jim wrote: > > > > BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development > > > > > > Tonight's talk is > > * Django Development > > > > Richard Kiss -- Django templating > > Eddy Mulyono -- django.contrib.databrowse > > Glen Jarvis -- South (Django database migration tool) > > Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps > > > > > > Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an > > essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. > > Tonight's Newbie Nugget: included in Richard Kiss' introduction > > > > LOCATION > > Symantec Corporation > > Symantec Vcafe > > 350 Ellis Street > > Mountain View, CA 94043 > > > http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18 > > > > BayPIGgies meeting information is available at > > http://baypiggies.net/new/plone > > > > > > ------------------------ Agenda ------------------------ > > > > ..... 7:30 PM ........................... > > General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, any > > first-minute announcements. > > > > > > ..... 7:35 PM to 8:45 PM ................ > > > > Title: Django Development > > Richard Kiss -- Django templating > > Eddy Mulyono -- Django.contrib.databrowse > > Glen Jarvis -- South (Django database migration tool) > > Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps > > > > > > ..... 8:45 PM to 9:20 PM ................ > > Mapping and Random Access > > > > Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics that > > the announcers are interested in. > > > > Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually > > on the announcements and other topics of interest. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.tubbs at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 20:25:29 2009 From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com (Brent Tubbs) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:25:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development In-Reply-To: References: <1256135542.6478.69.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <769bb4300910221125v1cb58b4cofa97e577d56c5bd5@mail.gmail.com> Maybe it's obvious to everyone already, but we're talking about Thursday October 22, not September 24, right? (see the email subject line) Also, thanks Glen for volunteering to record this. Tonight's session promises to be particularly useful to me and it will be awesome to have it recorded. Brent On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > I have the video equipment with me. I have the audio microphone batteries > with me. I have charged the camera batteries. And, I am hoping to get there > early enough so I can set up the camera, and still prepare for my > presentation. > If someone has an extra macbook with Garage Band on it, I'd be helpful to > have for the microphone input (I've had better luck with this than with just > the audio into the camera - tapes run out and we still have audio at times > -- with slides we can paste it together). > So, if you (anyone on BayPIGgies) have an extra macbook with Garage Band and > enough disk space for four fifteen minute audio segments, I could use the > help tonight. Wanna be in charge of recording the audio from the wireless > microphone? > Cheers, > > > Glen > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Meenal Pant wrote: >> >> Will tonight's talk be recorded ? Please ? >> Thanks >> Meenal >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:32 AM, jim wrote: >> > >> > BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development >> > >> > >> > Tonight's talk is >> > * Django Development >> > >> > Richard Kiss -- Django templating >> > Eddy Mulyono -- django.contrib.databrowse >> > Glen Jarvis -- South (Django database migration tool) >> > Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps >> > >> > >> > Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an >> > essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. >> > Tonight's Newbie Nugget: included in Richard Kiss' introduction >> > >> > LOCATION >> > Symantec Corporation >> > Symantec Vcafe >> > 350 Ellis Street >> > Mountain View, CA 94043 >> > >> > http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18 >> > >> > BayPIGgies meeting information is available at >> > http://baypiggies.net/new/plone >> > >> > >> > ------------------------ Agenda ------------------------ >> > >> > ..... 7:30 PM ........................... >> > General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, any >> > first-minute announcements. >> > >> > >> > ..... 7:35 PM to 8:45 PM ................ >> > >> > Title: Django Development >> > Richard Kiss -- ? ?Django templating >> > Eddy Mulyono -- ? ?Django.contrib.databrowse >> > Glen Jarvis -- ? ? South (Django database migration tool) >> > Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps >> > >> > >> > ..... 8:45 PM to 9:20 PM ?................ >> > Mapping and Random Access >> > >> > Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics that >> > the announcers are interested in. >> > >> > Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually >> > on the announcements and other topics of interest. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Baypiggies mailing list >> > Baypiggies at python.org >> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jim at well.com Thu Oct 22 20:58:59 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:58:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development In-Reply-To: <769bb4300910221125v1cb58b4cofa97e577d56c5bd5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1256135542.6478.69.camel@jim-laptop> <769bb4300910221125v1cb58b4cofa97e577d56c5bd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1256237939.6491.64.camel@jim-laptop> yes, i'd sent a follow-up message with the correct date and an apology. On Thu, 2009-10-22 at 11:25 -0700, Brent Tubbs wrote: > Maybe it's obvious to everyone already, but we're talking about > Thursday October 22, not September 24, right? (see the email subject > line) > > Also, thanks Glen for volunteering to record this. Tonight's session > promises to be particularly useful to me and it will be awesome to > have it recorded. > > Brent > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > I have the video equipment with me. I have the audio microphone batteries > > with me. I have charged the camera batteries. And, I am hoping to get there > > early enough so I can set up the camera, and still prepare for my > > presentation. > > If someone has an extra macbook with Garage Band on it, I'd be helpful to > > have for the microphone input (I've had better luck with this than with just > > the audio into the camera - tapes run out and we still have audio at times > > -- with slides we can paste it together). > > So, if you (anyone on BayPIGgies) have an extra macbook with Garage Band and > > enough disk space for four fifteen minute audio segments, I could use the > > help tonight. Wanna be in charge of recording the audio from the wireless > > microphone? > > Cheers, > > > > > > Glen > > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Meenal Pant wrote: > >> > >> Will tonight's talk be recorded ? Please ? > >> Thanks > >> Meenal > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:32 AM, jim wrote: > >> > > >> > BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development > >> > > >> > > >> > Tonight's talk is > >> > * Django Development > >> > > >> > Richard Kiss -- Django templating > >> > Eddy Mulyono -- django.contrib.databrowse > >> > Glen Jarvis -- South (Django database migration tool) > >> > Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps > >> > > >> > > >> > Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an > >> > essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. > >> > Tonight's Newbie Nugget: included in Richard Kiss' introduction > >> > > >> > LOCATION > >> > Symantec Corporation > >> > Symantec Vcafe > >> > 350 Ellis Street > >> > Mountain View, CA 94043 > >> > > >> > http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18 > >> > > >> > BayPIGgies meeting information is available at > >> > http://baypiggies.net/new/plone > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------ Agenda ------------------------ > >> > > >> > ..... 7:30 PM ........................... > >> > General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, any > >> > first-minute announcements. > >> > > >> > > >> > ..... 7:35 PM to 8:45 PM ................ > >> > > >> > Title: Django Development > >> > Richard Kiss -- Django templating > >> > Eddy Mulyono -- Django.contrib.databrowse > >> > Glen Jarvis -- South (Django database migration tool) > >> > Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps > >> > > >> > > >> > ..... 8:45 PM to 9:20 PM ................ > >> > Mapping and Random Access > >> > > >> > Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics that > >> > the announcers are interested in. > >> > > >> > Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually > >> > on the announcements and other topics of interest. > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Baypiggies mailing list > >> > Baypiggies at python.org > >> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From voidref at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 21:25:41 2009 From: voidref at gmail.com (Alan Westbrook) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:25:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development In-Reply-To: References: <1256135542.6478.69.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <5df1e9b00910221225u3a344617o62b15c415b0b3cac@mail.gmail.com> I have a macbook air, I'll try and make the meeting this evening. But no firewire ports, I can bring a mic stand and a tripod if that helps. Alan On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > I have the video equipment with me. I have the audio microphone batteries > with me. I have charged the camera batteries. And, I am hoping to get there > early enough so I can set up the camera, and still prepare for my > presentation. > If someone has an extra macbook with Garage Band on it, I'd be helpful to > have for the microphone input (I've had better luck with this than with just > the audio into the camera - tapes run out and we still have audio at times > -- with slides we can paste it together). > So, if you (anyone on BayPIGgies) have an extra macbook with Garage Band and > enough disk space for four fifteen minute audio segments, I could use the > help tonight. Wanna be in charge of recording the audio from the wireless > microphone? > Cheers, > > > Glen > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Meenal Pant wrote: >> >> Will tonight's talk be recorded ? Please ? >> Thanks >> Meenal >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:32 AM, jim wrote: >> > >> > BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Django Development >> > >> > >> > Tonight's talk is >> > * Django Development >> > >> > Richard Kiss -- Django templating >> > Eddy Mulyono -- django.contrib.databrowse >> > Glen Jarvis -- South (Django database migration tool) >> > Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps >> > >> > >> > Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an >> > essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. >> > Tonight's Newbie Nugget: included in Richard Kiss' introduction >> > >> > LOCATION >> > Symantec Corporation >> > Symantec Vcafe >> > 350 Ellis Street >> > Mountain View, CA 94043 >> > >> > http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18 >> > >> > BayPIGgies meeting information is available at >> > http://baypiggies.net/new/plone >> > >> > >> > ------------------------ Agenda ------------------------ >> > >> > ..... 7:30 PM ........................... >> > General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, any >> > first-minute announcements. >> > >> > >> > ..... 7:35 PM to 8:45 PM ................ >> > >> > Title: Django Development >> > Richard Kiss -- ? ?Django templating >> > Eddy Mulyono -- ? ?Django.contrib.databrowse >> > Glen Jarvis -- ? ? South (Django database migration tool) >> > Simeon Franklin -- Django best practices and commonly used, helpful apps >> > >> > >> > ..... 8:45 PM to 9:20 PM ?................ >> > Mapping and Random Access >> > >> > Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics that >> > the announcers are interested in. >> > >> > Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually >> > on the announcements and other topics of interest. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Baypiggies mailing list >> > Baypiggies at python.org >> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From damonmc at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 02:19:39 2009 From: damonmc at gmail.com (Damon McCormick) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:19:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Java or Python? (was: PERL or PYTHON) In-Reply-To: References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> Message-ID: <3cce76f60910221719j772e5b1w3450526ff57f73ac@mail.gmail.com> Not to mention PyPy . -Damon On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > (The only place where Java has Python beat is that it performs better. >> Thankfully, that's rarely an issue for me since I usually have to >> worry a lot more about scalability than performance.) >> > > And that may, theoretically, change with the Unladen Swallow project. > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bsergean at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 02:52:21 2009 From: bsergean at gmail.com (Benjamin Sergeant) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:52:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Java or Python? (was: PERL or PYTHON) In-Reply-To: <3cce76f60910221719j772e5b1w3450526ff57f73ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <4AD34ECA.5040608@noir.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> <3cce76f60910221719j772e5b1w3450526ff57f73ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1621f9fa0910221752h37b3826eo28c3011175926c75@mail.gmail.com> Now that you mention it, did anyone ever tried Django running with PyPy ? ( Instruction there http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/DjangoAndPyPy """ The Python interpreter is now between 0.8-2x (and in some corner case 3-4x) slower than CPython """ ) On a related note, I'm curious to know if anyone ever profiled a typical django web request, starting when the HTTP request arrive on the server and until the response is sent back (including what's happening inside the web server mod_python / mod_wsgi / nginx - fastcgi ....). The Linux guys have nice charts saying what's happening during booting, it would be cool to have something similar for web apps. http://www.bootchart.org/images/bootchart.png Cheers, - Benjamin On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Damon McCormick wrote: > Not to mention PyPy. > -Damon > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> >>> (The only place where Java has Python beat is that it performs better. >>> ?Thankfully, that's rarely an issue for me since I usually have to >>> worry a lot more about scalability than performance.) >> >> And that may, theoretically, change with the Unladen Swallow project. >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From johnw at crowdscience.com Fri Oct 23 06:09:24 2009 From: johnw at crowdscience.com (John Wainwright) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:09:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python / Django Software Engineer Message-ID: Hi, we're an 18 month-old audience-analytics startup in Mountain View looking to expand our engineering team with an experienced Python programmer, preferably someone with Django & DHTML chops. Our analytics platform is Python soup-to-nuts, backing into MySQL, with lots of interesting UI, scaling, data-mining & control-system challenges. We're just about to add a slew of new features on the front-end and ramp scalability with tools like Gearman and Hadoop on the back-end, so come join in the fun. Details on our job-listing page here: http://www.crowdscience.com/jobs/#software-engineer, or reply with questions or recommendations. Cheers, John. CTO, Crowd Science, Inc. From jaime at chompapps.com Fri Oct 23 07:54:10 2009 From: jaime at chompapps.com (Jaime Bott) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 22:54:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Developer (San Francisco) Message-ID: *Software Engineer - Early, but funded start-up * San Francisco, CA, USA *Us: *- Super early stage mobile start-up that is in stealth, funded by top Silicon Valley investors & working on the biggest mobile problem the world faces today. This is a problem that is emerging, but is already a billion dollar market opportunity. - We are engineers, young, smart & aggressive... & have built and sold companies in the mobile space previously. * You:**- Must be based in SF Bay Area. *- Will be working with the founders directly & will get in on this opportunity early! - Smart, hungry and ready to make your mark. It would be a plus if you have a good sense of humor too. :-) - Prepared to do whatever it takes to succeed. This means the non-sexy start-up stuff too... (IE SysAdmin, release work etc.) - Passionate about building products that blow people away. *Responsibilities*: - Take ownership of the back-end architecture of our platform. - Solve complex problems in data aggregation. - Writing and maintaining high quality, scalable code. - Involved in QA testing. *Experience* - Strong Python &/or PHP skills. - Strong MySQL skills, including both query and database design. - Experience with distributed version control, preferably Git. - Experience with JSON, HTML/CSS/Javascript welcomed. - Strong opinions on development team processes. To apply, email your resume and salary requirements to jobs at chompapps.com. No recruiters or phone calls please. Compensation: Lets discuss... but probably within range of what you have previously been paid. -- Jaime Bott www.jaimebott.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Oct 23 19:10:46 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:10:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] KUDOS and Thank you! Re: talks last night Message-ID: I want to personally thank Richard, Eddy and Simeon for their effort last night. Richard made the Django templates very accessible for beginners. I've never used databrowse (or really even knew what it was). So, Eddy's talk helped me. Talks like this are helpful for me, not to know the details, but to know 1) What it is, 2) Why it's useful, and 3) When I may need to go read the docs if I need it in the future. So, thank you, Eddy! And, of course, I think Simeon's talk was *amazing*. Both times I've heard Simeon talk, I've been so impressed with how much of the good extra bits of Django he knows. I'm not to that level.... So, it's *very* helpful to learn about these extra pieces. In fact, frankly, that talk was so full of tips and tricks, I need to go back and review the tape so I can review each concepts again. In fact, Simeon also used some other tools (like pip) from his previous talk. I need to compile a list of these tools to review so I can duplicate his very efficient pipeline -- I don't have any many Django instances as he has, but I have quite a few (8 at the moment). And, this would make my life much easier to manage. At the end of the day, I'm always impressed with the talent we have at BayPIGgies and am proud to be a member of this community. Warmest Regards, Glen Jarvis P.S. I'll try to get a working rough draft of the video completed by Monday so we can all review. Because I didn't have an audio cable last night, we couldn't get a direct microphone from the wireless mic :( But, the camera should have picked up enough for this to be usable. And, we have some extra audio output recorded from other volunteers if needed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Oct 23 20:08:19 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:08:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Mock Interviewing Message-ID: During random access last night, some of us were discussing the job market and interviewing for jobs. I received another email this morning from a different group I'm part of. In that group, they are doing mock interviews. I may not be able to attend this, but I wanted to point any BayPIGgies members in this direction. The current concept is that you bring in a job description, and go through an interview, and people give their feedback/impressions to you. If you're interested, the initial proposal would be on Tuesday 10/27 in San Francisco. If you're interested, please reply off list and I'll forward your email to the group in question and do introductions. I don't know more about this than what I just explained. But, if it would benefit the BayPIGgies community in any way, I don't mind connecting people. Warmest Regards, Glen Jarvis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meenalpant at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 21:19:11 2009 From: meenalpant at gmail.com (Meenal Pant) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:19:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] KUDOS and Thank you! Re: talks last night In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Glen and everyone for the talks and videos. I am looking forward to those. Meenal From stephen.cattaneo at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 18:55:20 2009 From: stephen.cattaneo at gmail.com (Stephen Cattaneo) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 09:55:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] KUDOS and Thank you! Re: talks last night In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9cc0dd6f0910240955x6ec08dd3wba05249acb21454a@mail.gmail.com> Simeon, What were those Django apps you recommended? Cheers, S On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > I want to personally thank Richard, Eddy and Simeon for their effort last > night. Richard made the Django templates very accessible for beginners. I've > never used databrowse (or really even knew what it was). So, Eddy's talk > helped me. Talks like this are helpful for me, not to know the details, but > to know 1) What it is, 2) Why it's useful, and 3) When I may need to go read > the docs if I need it in the future. So, thank you, Eddy! > > And, of course, I think Simeon's talk was *amazing*. Both times I've heard > Simeon talk, I've been so impressed with how much of the good extra bits of > Django he knows. I'm not to that level.... So, it's *very* helpful to learn > about these extra pieces. > > In fact, frankly, that talk was so full of tips and tricks, I need to go > back and review the tape so I can review each concepts again. In fact, > Simeon also used some other tools (like pip) from his previous talk. I need > to compile a list of these tools to review so I can duplicate his very > efficient pipeline -- I don't have any many Django instances as he has, but > I have quite a few (8 at the moment). And, this would make my life much > easier to manage. > > At the end of the day, I'm always impressed with the talent we have at > BayPIGgies and am proud to be a member of this community. > > Warmest Regards, > > > Glen Jarvis > P.S. I'll try to get a working rough draft of the video completed by Monday > so we can all review. Because I didn't have an audio cable last night, we > couldn't get a direct microphone from the wireless mic :( But, the camera > should have picked up enough for this to be usable. And, we have some extra > audio output recorded from other volunteers if needed. > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- --- Failures are finger posts on the road to achievement. -- C.S. Lewis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roderick at sanfransystems.com Sat Oct 24 20:31:11 2009 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 11:31:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 References: Message-ID: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> In your job posting, I see the following phrase: > We are engineers, young, smart & aggressive Is this intended as a statement of the desired type of employee candidate? - Rod L. From roderick at sanfransystems.com Sat Oct 24 20:52:35 2009 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 11:52:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms References: Message-ID: Hello All, I have a question about how you all out there handle modern employment forms, which ask for salary requirements. Many of these online applications demand a numeric entry before you can even proceed with the application, so you can't enter things of the form of "negotiable" or "decline to state" or "make me an offer" lol. Prior to about 10 years ago, companies never discussed salary until they were ready to make an offer, at which time they made the first move, usually issuing an offer letter. These days companies have decided to steal even that small negotiating advantage by making the candidate state his/her price before candidate even knows if the company has the slightest interest in them. I find this offensive, but that's how it's done now. My question is: how do you handle this kind of thing? I'm not looking for people to tell me their salaries or the like. I'm interested mainly in the logical process by which you come up with a number to fill in these forms which demand one. I have been searching for work for a couple years now, and it's possible that the numbers I've entered in these forms have caused me to be eliminated without the firm even bothering to read my resume or the rest of my application (e.g., their application process has code of the form "IF salary_requirement [candidate] > our_incredibly_low_amount THEN reject (candidate)" ) For example, do people (who ideally have actually gotten jobs through this kind of process) have heuristics such as: 1. I enter in the last salary I made. At least we know I must have been worth that to somebody. 2. Same as 1., but I increase it by X %. After all I deserve a raise. 3. I always tell the truth, and enter in the minimum I would accept, since that maximizes my chance of getting a job I would actually take. 4. I enter in a large number, knowing that the firm will always cut it down, never increase it. 5. I roll the dice. One number is as good as another. 6. I do careful research to determine what similar positions pay to the one that I'm going for, and state a number similar to that. (Problem with that is that in my personal case, I have been unable to find useful salary information - my belief is that developer salaries have plummeted in the last few years, and can find no comparables to my 35 years of experience - which is valued at zero by the marketplace anyway). Anyway those are just a few ideas. Please again don't get offended, I'm not trying to penetrate people's privacy, just trying to get a handle on how people have (ideally successfully!) deal with this very difficult (and in my opinion, totally unfair) question that now occurs on most firms' application forms. Thanks very much, Rod Llewellyn From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Oct 24 21:00:06 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 12:00:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091024190006.GA18358@panix.com> On Sat, Oct 24, 2009, Roderick Llewellyn wrote: > > For example, do people (who ideally have actually gotten jobs through > this kind of process) have heuristics such as: Well, I haven't gotten any jobs through applications that require this kind of information, so I can't give you any successful feedback, but I generally use some combination of all the strategies you mention based on no particular reasoning. Although I have found two jobs through Craigslist (2004 and this past August), neither required this kind of rigamarole, and few companies I've been particularly interested in have, either. So unless you're desparate for work, I wouldn't worry too much about this stuff. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "In the end, outside of spy agencies, people are far too trusting and willing to help." --Ira Winkler From jon at inklesspen.com Sat Oct 24 21:07:07 2009 From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 12:07:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms In-Reply-To: <20091024190006.GA18358@panix.com> References: <20091024190006.GA18358@panix.com> Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2009, at 12:00 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Sat, Oct 24, 2009, Roderick Llewellyn wrote: >> >> For example, do people (who ideally have actually gotten jobs through >> this kind of process) have heuristics such as: > > Although I have found two jobs through Craigslist (2004 and this past > August), neither required this kind of rigamarole, and few companies > I've > been particularly interested in have, either. So unless you're > desparate > for work, I wouldn't worry too much about this stuff. I agree with Ahaz. Interviewing is as much me finding out if I want to work there as it is them finding out if they want to hire me, and luckily, even in this economy, I've not so far had to make a lot of compromises in that regard. However, I have found the advice here to be useful: http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2008/04/11/the_business.html Jon From jeff.enderwick at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 02:41:25 2009 From: jeff.enderwick at gmail.com (Jeff Enderwick) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 18:41:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Developer in San Francisco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A billion dollar market opportunity? On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Jaime Bott wrote: > San Francisco-based contract Python Developer role available. More info > here: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dtc9xms_77hsrm8pc3. > > Thanks! > > -- > Jaime Bott > www.jaimebott.com > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asimjalis at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 03:28:35 2009 From: asimjalis at gmail.com (Asim Jalis) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:28:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms In-Reply-To: References: <20091024190006.GA18358@panix.com> Message-ID: <88d9159a0910241928v19aa909aq50e59411b5c82ece@mail.gmail.com> Good advice overall. I would also suggest looking at the salaries through indeed.com which gives average salaries for different locations and keywords. Good for getting a ballpark figure. From bender at onsrc.com Sun Oct 25 03:42:43 2009 From: bender at onsrc.com (RYAN DELUCCHI) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:42:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms In-Reply-To: <88d9159a0910241928v19aa909aq50e59411b5c82ece@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091024190006.GA18358@panix.com> <88d9159a0910241928v19aa909aq50e59411b5c82ece@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98B04EE9-CEFF-44E6-A4AE-015626BA0D93@onsrc.com> Actually, I've had better luck with salary.com and glassdoor.com. And while the glassdoor reviews can be helpful: Do read them with a skeptical eye (as disgruntled employees tend to be more likely to write a review than happy ones). I've noticed the same phenomenon with apartmentratings.com. Ryan On Oct 24, 2009, at 7:28 PM, Asim Jalis wrote: > Good advice overall. I would also suggest looking at the salaries > through indeed.com which gives average salaries for different > locations and keywords. Good for getting a ballpark figure. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From aleax at google.com Sun Oct 25 21:19:23 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 13:19:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms In-Reply-To: <98B04EE9-CEFF-44E6-A4AE-015626BA0D93@onsrc.com> References: <20091024190006.GA18358@panix.com> <88d9159a0910241928v19aa909aq50e59411b5c82ece@mail.gmail.com> <98B04EE9-CEFF-44E6-A4AE-015626BA0D93@onsrc.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0910251319i25bb1415x6a9b474543dbc891@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 7:42 PM, RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: > Actually, I've had better luck with salary.com and glassdoor.com. ?And while > the glassdoor reviews can be helpful: Do read them with a skeptical eye (as > disgruntled employees tend to be more likely to write a review than happy > ones). ?I've noticed the same phenomenon with apartmentratings.com. Excellent recommendations -- I second them all. Such sites will allow you to get some sense of what compensation ranges are realistic for jobs somewhat comparable to the one you're applying for, in that general geographical area &c. When I interviewed for employee roles (as opposed to freelance consulting ones) I was never asked what compensation I was looking for, though reasonably often I was asked to state (and later in the process document, e.g. through payslips or tax documents) my recent compensation history. However, being asked to advance a quote has always been pretty common when you're bidding for a definite, time-limited consulting job: one puts forward reasonable statements as to one's interpretation of the tasks' scope (and disclaimers that scope creep _will_ increase costs;-), then estimates a reasonable range for how many work hours it will take to complete the tasks, and makes a quote based on how many total hours one can manage to bill per year and how much gross income one wants over the year. Before stating the final requested quote some fudging is good -- fudge upwards for a client that's highly risky (likely to be difficult, will they actually pay in time, incompetent personnel so getting the detailed info needed for the job may prove a time sink, ec), downwards for the best clients (have given you good contracts before, are likely to do so again in the future, have personnel you know and trust, and so forth). The general rule of thumb for contracting work (I mean real freelance, not being hired as "temp" by an employer who really needs full-timers but is too stingy to hire them;-) is that you can probably bill 50% of the hours you're working through the year -- the rest is unbillable overhead (administrative chores, marketing and selling yourself inc. human networking, keeping your tech skills honed including going to conferences and interest-group meetups, etc, etc). I've always been luckier than that in my years as a consultant (billing closer to 2/3 of my working hours rather than just 1/2) but it would be imprudent to count on that. (Also, of course, in picking one's target income one must always account for expenses -- travel, tax and accounting consultants, etc -- and the lack of benefits [in this country the biggie's health insurance, but when consulting I was residing in Europe so this wasn't much of an issue]). Stating the required compensation for a full-time job shouldn't be that different (though a bit simpler in some respects) than doing it for consulting jobs. Your target will depend on why you're looking for work -- if you already have a good job and are only sniffing around for a better one you presumably want to move upwards (unless there are great intangible benefits in the new one, such as escaping a dysfunctional current employer, moving to a startup with some prospects of making a bundle on options &c, great upwards career prospects, etc); if you're unemployed and have been searching unsuccessfully for a while, setting one's target lower might be advisable. Fudging up or down based on similar characteristics of the employer as previously mentioned is probably still advisable (though the characteristics here might be different, e.g., is the employer a huge faceless firm where you'll be one more cog in the wheel or a dynamic, small but growing company where your impact will be large -- are they at risk of imminent layoffs or bankruptcy -- etc, etc). What you made in the past may not be a reliable gauge (e.g. maybe you were lucky with options or restricted stock awards in the past, but can't count on getting lucky again); what you can gauge about going rates for the role, e.g. from sites like the above-mentioned ones, may be more reliable. And btw, as I've also mentioned in the monthly meetings, Google is hiring -- with our usual high (and occasionally capricious, sigh) threshold, but also with our old enthusiasm for hiring anybody who does meet that threshold fired back up to white-hot levels. If you haven't had contacts with Google hiring for at least a year and a day, feel free to get in touch with me and I'll see if I can refer you -- most of our hires do come from employee referrals, so we're intensely encouraging and rewarding such referrals. The more info you provide the better -- resume, references, cover letter, URLs from http://www.google.com/intl/en/jobs/ , etc -- but please _don't_ provide "required compensation" info... in this way we're an old-fashioned employer and (if we extend you an offer) the offer will include the compensation we think we can offer you (to keep every employee's compensation aligned with their prospective, and later actual, contributions, and totally independent of the employee's salary negotiating skills, previous salary history, and the like;-). Thanks, Alex From simeonf at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 00:21:54 2009 From: simeonf at gmail.com (Simeon Franklin) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 16:21:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] KUDOS and Thank you! Re: talks last night Message-ID: I demoed django-debug-toolbar and the Werkzeug debugger integration in command-extensions. I also mentioned django-sugar (particularly the nicer {% if %} template tag) as useful app for devs. See: http://github.com/robhudson/django-debug-toolbar http://github.com/montylounge/django-sugar http://github.com/django-extensions/django-extensions I'd also recommend Kevin Fricovsky's post reviewing the apps in his blog, it's a pretty good list: http://blog.montylounge.com/2009/sep/24/apps-that-power-django-mingus/ I put the slides up on my blog if you want to take a look... ( http://simeonfranklin.com/blog/2009/oct/22/baypiggies-again/) -regards Simeon Franklin Stephen Cattaneo > Simeon, > > What were those Django apps you recommended? > > Cheers, > > S > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 08:46:20 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 00:46:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Roderick Llewellyn wrote: > Hello All, > I have a question about how you all out there handle modern employment > forms, which ask for salary requirements. Many of these online applications > demand a numeric entry before you can even proceed with the application, so > you can't enter things of the form of "negotiable" or "decline to state" or > "make me an offer" lol. > Prior to about 10 years ago, companies never discussed salary until they > were ready to make an offer, at which time they made the first move, usually > issuing an offer letter. These days companies have decided to steal even > that small negotiating advantage by making the candidate state his/her price > before candidate even knows if the company has the slightest interest in > them. I find this offensive, but that's how it's done now. > My question is: how do you handle this kind of thing? I'm not looking for > people to tell me their salaries or the like. I'm interested mainly in the > logical process by which you come up with a number to fill in these forms > which demand one. I have been searching for work for a couple years now, and > it's possible that the numbers I've entered in these forms have caused me to > be eliminated without the firm even bothering to read my resume or the rest > of my application (e.g., their application process has code of the form "IF > salary_requirement [candidate] > our_incredibly_low_amount THEN reject > (candidate)" ) > For example, do people (who ideally have actually gotten jobs through this > kind of process) have heuristics such as: > 1. I enter in the last salary I made. At least we know I must have been > worth that to somebody. > 2. Same as 1., but I increase it by X %. After all I deserve a raise. > 3. I always tell the truth, and enter in the minimum I would accept, since > that maximizes my chance of getting a job I would actually take. > 4. I enter in a large number, knowing that the firm will always cut it down, > never increase it. > 5. I roll the dice. One number is as good as another. > 6. I do careful research to determine what similar positions pay to the one > that I'm going for, and state a number similar to that. (Problem with that > is that in my personal case, I have been unable to find useful salary > information - my belief is that developer salaries have plummeted in the > last few years, and can find no comparables to my 35 years of experience - > which is valued at zero by the marketplace anyway). > Anyway those are just a few ideas. Please again don't get offended, I'm not > trying to penetrate people's privacy, just trying to get a handle on how > people have (ideally successfully!) deal with this very difficult (and in my > opinion, totally unfair) question that now occurs on most firms' application > forms. > Thanks very much, > Rod Llewellyn Everyone else had good advice. I have one number that I charge for salaried startups, and I have another number that I charge for "build it from scratch, and get a lot of equity" type startups. Neither is particularly big, and in fact I keep getting more and more fun jobs for less and less money. These days, I'm living pretty frugally. I've never had success with the sort of computer forms you're talking about. I'm not sure those ever work. I've interviewed at several places that I had no real relation to, but almost invariably, the best companies come to me through my network. Best of all, since they already know all about me, I don't have to bother with a technical interview ;) Best of Luck, -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From ferringb at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 11:52:24 2009 From: ferringb at gmail.com (Brian Harring) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 03:52:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091026105223.GB26938@hrair.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 12:46:20AM -0700, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > I've never had success with the sort of computer forms you're talking > about. I'm not sure those ever work. Honestly at this point I tend to think it's resume harvesting, and this goes without naming names company wise. When I've gotten callbacks from forms of that sort, it's been well outside the window of when I applied via their little web forms- seemed more like they had some room in the headcount and did a scan of a resume database then them just being incredibly slow in responding to job applications. That said, most companies that have forms of that sort, the ratio of callback (even a simple phone screen for a sanity check) is *way* below what your average craigslist posting gets- mind you, that's my own data, although I strongly suspect it's probably the norm. > I've interviewed at several > places that I had no real relation to, but almost invariably, the best > companies come to me through my network. Best of all, since they > already know all about me, I don't have to bother with a technical > interview ;) Seconding that, the most interesting gigs I've had came about from personal contacts of some sort. Realistically, the gigs I've truly enjoyed (and gained serious skill from) have been gigs that came about via my FOSS work- I can't stress that one enough, I'd probably not have a career without the FOSS work opening up new opportunities (typically folk come looking when you scratch an itch that they're currently suffering from- optimization in particular has worked well for me). Just throwing in my 2 cents in, in a slightly offtopic fashion ;) ~harring From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Oct 26 13:54:04 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 05:54:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091026125404.GA19100@panix.com> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > I've interviewed at several places that I had no real relation to, but > almost invariably, the best companies come to me through my network. > Best of all, since they already know all about me, I don't have to > bother with a technical interview ;) As I said before, both my last two jobs came from Craigslist postings (that is, I knew nothing about the companies before applying, nor really about the people working there). However, people at both companies knew *me* from my work in the Python community and in both cases the technical interviews were rather minimal. It was mostly a matter of seeing whether I'd be a good fit. So yes, having a high profile in Open Source and the Python community does make a difference in finding jobs. That's not why I do it, of course -- I don't think it's possible to keep a commitment like this for more than a decade unless you want to do it for its own sake, but I figure it's worth noting that it does sometimes come with external rewards. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f From rich at noir.com Mon Oct 26 14:40:08 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 06:40:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms In-Reply-To: <98B04EE9-CEFF-44E6-A4AE-015626BA0D93@onsrc.com> References: <20091024190006.GA18358@panix.com> <88d9159a0910241928v19aa909aq50e59411b5c82ece@mail.gmail.com> <98B04EE9-CEFF-44E6-A4AE-015626BA0D93@onsrc.com> Message-ID: <4AE5A6B8.5040407@noir.com> RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: > Actually, I've had better luck with salary.com and glassdoor.com. And > while the glassdoor reviews can be helpful: Do read them with a > skeptical eye (as disgruntled employees tend to be more likely to > write a review than happy ones). I've noticed the same phenomenon > with apartmentratings.com. Yelp.com seems to have a similar dynamic. I'll second the suggestion for glassdoor.com. My personal strategy and experience has been that questionnaires that demand this info too early are not realistic paths to work. That is, they're today's equivalent to a blow off. If you know of a company who is looking, or has a gig available, and you run into one of these, then it's time to start pushing on the social network to find some other way to get your resume in front of whoever is doing the hiring. I don't remember whether I've ever landed a gig that included such a questionnaire, but I'm positive that I've landed interviews after finding alternatives to such questionnaires. --rich From asimjalis at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 16:32:21 2009 From: asimjalis at gmail.com (Asim Jalis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:32:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Question about employment application forms In-Reply-To: <98B04EE9-CEFF-44E6-A4AE-015626BA0D93@onsrc.com> References: <20091024190006.GA18358@panix.com> <88d9159a0910241928v19aa909aq50e59411b5c82ece@mail.gmail.com> <98B04EE9-CEFF-44E6-A4AE-015626BA0D93@onsrc.com> Message-ID: <88d9159a0910260832q400c9cf6i535d7cde224825ef@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 7:42 PM, RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: > Actually, I've had better luck with salary.com and glassdoor.com. ?And while > the glassdoor reviews can be helpful: Do read them with a skeptical eye (as > disgruntled employees tend to be more likely to write a review than happy > ones). ?I've noticed the same phenomenon with apartmentratings.com. I found glassdoor.com pretty useful as well. And in fact these strategies are not really mutually exclusive -- it is useful to synthesize information from different sources. From glen at glenjarvis.com Mon Oct 26 23:26:26 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:26:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] If you need a volunteer... Message-ID: If you need a volunteer, I can do introductions (for PyMite and for Andrew) for our next BayPIGgies meeting. I'll open/introduce/call for random access, etc. Let me know if you need me too... Cheers, Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen.jarvis at thepythonshoppe.com Mon Oct 26 18:29:55 2009 From: glen.jarvis at thepythonshoppe.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:29:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] First Draft of 1 Video complete Message-ID: <6ED94EC5-7095-4092-AE31-DACFEC75E788@thepythonshoppe.com> The first draft of one video is complete. I started with the tape that was in the camera (Last In/First Out). So, this is Simeon's presentation: I didn't review this at all, so please do report any errors, etc. This is a 'CD quality' video, not web streaming quality, so it is probably better to right click and download. This also did not get letter-boxed.. but it should work... Direct link: http://home.glenjarvis.com/baypiggies/200910/ BayPIGgies_20091022_Simeon.mov Navigate to: http://home.glenjarvis.com/baypiggies/200910/ Cheers, Glen From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Oct 27 01:37:18 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:37:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] First Draft of 1 Video complete Message-ID: <294B5CC3-98DC-48C8-B7D1-4867900851E4@glenjarvis.com> The first draft of one video is complete. I started with the tape that was in the camera (Last In/First Out). So, this is Simeon's presentation: I didn't review this at all, so please do report any errors, etc. This is a 'CD quality' video, not web streaming quality, so it is probably better to right click and download. This also did not get letter-boxed.. but it should work... Direct link: http://home.glenjarvis.com/baypiggies/200910/ BayPIGgies_20091022_Simeon.mov Navigate to: http://home.glenjarvis.com/baypiggies/200910/ Cheers, Glen From jaime at chompapps.com Tue Oct 27 01:48:18 2009 From: jaime at chompapps.com (Jaime Bott) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:48:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> Message-ID: It is describing the founders and they would like to find similar qualities in the right candidate. On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Roderick Llewellyn < roderick at sanfransystems.com> wrote: > In your job posting, I see the following phrase: > >> We are engineers, young, smart & aggressive >> > Is this intended as a statement of the desired type of employee candidate? > - Rod L. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Jaime Bott www.jaimebott.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 02:28:24 2009 From: jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com (Jeremy Fishman) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 18:28:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> Message-ID: <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> fyi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employment_Act The ADEA includes a broad ban against age discrimination and also specifically prohibits: - Discrimination in hiring, promotions, wages, or firing/layoff. - Statements or specifications in job notices or advertisements of age preference and limitations [...] The ADEA differs from the Civil Rights Act in that the ADEA applies to employers of 20 or more employees (see 29 U.S.C. ? 630(b) ) rather than 15 or more employees, thus providing less protection. Both acts do, however, only apply to employers in industries affecting interstate commerce. The 20 employees can include overseas employees Morelli v. Cedel (2nd Cir. 1998) 141 F3d 39, 45 . Not sure how that might/might not apply to you, but I would be more careful. It's also just plain insulting to some. - Jeremy On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Jaime Bott wrote: > It is describing the founders and they would like to find similar qualities > in the right candidate. > > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Roderick Llewellyn < > roderick at sanfransystems.com> wrote: > >> In your job posting, I see the following phrase: >> >>> We are engineers, young, smart & aggressive >>> >> Is this intended as a statement of the desired type of employee candidate? >> - Rod L. >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > > -- > Jaime Bott > www.jaimebott.com > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From p at ulmcnett.com Tue Oct 27 03:54:25 2009 From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:54:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> Jeremy Fishman wrote: > Not sure how that might/might not apply to you, but I would be more > careful. It's also just plain insulting to some. Indeed. I was insulted by the "young" and put off by the "aggressive". What happens when you put several aggressive types in a pit together? Aggression is to be avoided or circumvented at all costs, in my book! Good luck finding young aggressive python coders that are also smart. Paul From bender at onsrc.com Tue Oct 27 04:16:54 2009 From: bender at onsrc.com (RYAN DELUCCHI) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:16:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> Message-ID: <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> And while we are on the collective soap-box, I am just put another one out there: Anyone who says they are looking for a "rockstar" programmer can just forget about ever hearing from me. I realize that this may seem to be kinda cute, from the surface. But, I'm frankly insulted by the notion that to in order to be highly skilled software engineer: one has to be "cool" enough (hence, said engineer would be deemed a "rockstar"). Just as I lament the fact that the media has reduced title of "hacker" to that of a criminal. It angers me to see the (what I believe to be a rather beautiful) craft of software engineering be reduced to that of some lame pop icon. Anybody with me on this one? Ryan On Oct 26, 2009, at 7:54 PM, Paul McNett wrote: > Jeremy Fishman wrote: >> Not sure how that might/might not apply to you, but I would be more >> careful. It's also just plain insulting to some. > > Indeed. I was insulted by the "young" and put off by the > "aggressive". What happens when you put several aggressive types in > a pit together? Aggression is to be avoided or circumvented at all > costs, in my book! > > Good luck finding young aggressive python coders that are also smart. > > Paul > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From aleax at google.com Tue Oct 27 04:22:42 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:22:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0910262022n2aefaa1ct8191810f20134010@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Paul McNett

wrote: > Jeremy Fishman wrote: >> >> Not sure how that might/might not apply to you, but I would be more >> careful. ?It's also just plain insulting to some. > > Indeed. I was insulted by the "young" and put off by the "aggressive". What > happens when you put several aggressive types in a pit together? Aggression > is to be avoided or circumvented at all costs, in my book! > > Good luck finding young aggressive python coders that are also smart. Taking age into consideration for hiring is illegal in the US; taking smartness and aggressiveness into consideration is perfectly legal (whether positively or negatively); whether wise or not, well, that, fortunately, is something that the startup's success or lack thereof will pronounce upon, not your call nor mine. Note that I believe that, if they were looking for business partners (or spouses) rather than employees, it's still legal under US law to take into consideration age, gender, religion, and other things that are illegal to consider for employees. You can surely legally look for a spouse who's (e.g.) a Mormon, a Wiccan, a Sikh, or whatever; one who's of a specified gender (indeed a majority of California voters appears to believe you MUST take that into consideration); one who is for example within a certain number of years from your own age (indeed most Americans appear to consider it distasteful, although it still remains just as legal, when a 20-something marries a 60-something). Paul Graham's latest essay, among other issues confronting startups, points out that the relationship between startup co-founders is just about as intimate (except for the physical parts) as that between spouses. And throughout history members of persecuted religious minorities have preferred to do business with co-religionaries, whom they felt they could trust more than gentiles. I am aware of no US court precedents, but if a startup that's forming is making all co-workers also co-founders (vesting ownership in the firm), I wonder what criterion would apply -- could I legally refuse to become a business partner with somebody I distrust for whatever reason I personally choose to trust or distrust people, or will the long arm of the law force me to trust (ha!) people I am diffident about because of their legally-protected aspect X? Was Jack Weinberg (now close to 70) inciting now-illegal behavior when, back in his Berkeley days in the '60s, he spoke about "trust nobody over 30"?-) Out of the huge variety of business and personal relationship, the law (depending on jurisdiction: it's different in Europe in several respects, though overall similar on guiding principles) has singled out a very few (employer/employee, landlord/tenant) to force the issue of what criteria you're allowed to choose by, presumably based on the assumption of highly-skewed power gradients (i.e., unspoken assumptions about landlords with vast parks of properties to rent vs tenants desperate for a place to live, as opposed to the rental vacancy rates over 20% observed today in Richmond, Va, where the desperate ones are presumably the landlords;-). But I believe that the "partnership as co-founders" relationship is still free of such legal constraints in the US as well as in Europe, as well as the buyer-seller relationship (you're legally entitled to pick what store, chain, or other supplier you choose to buy from, based on whatever criteria you like -- sabotage Walmart because they're in favor of health care reform, sabotage Apple because they're in favor of cap-and-trade carbon regulations, or whatever!), presumably also in the market for services as well as that for products. So (IANAL, but this is my personal interpretation) what I'm legally allowed to take into consideration to pick a consultant is broader than what I'm allowed to consider for an employee, for example... Alex From sfseth at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 04:28:25 2009 From: sfseth at gmail.com (Seth Friedman) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:28:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> Message-ID: <64e45fca0910262028l4ea57d9bx471e4525728a74f9@mail.gmail.com> +1 from me. In my interviewing I *aggressively* sleuth for places that run as rockstar kind of places (rather than collaborative / team / interteam oriented). I fail at that sometimes, maybe because there's a mix of thinking, or companies are better at hiding their thinking than this post, whatever the reason. As I'm in a role entirely dependent on other teams, my team's output is information, "rockstar" culture is precisely what I look for not being there. Most job posts are more careful about hiding it. My first opinion of this job post is the one I still have: the company self selected itself out of the pool of "top" potential employees, by my wholly biased view on the topic. If they think they're going to take over the world because they aced some classes and convinced some people out of a couple million bucks, good for them. In my view that's not sufficient model for a successful company, by whatever definition of success, maybe my judgment is just "a place I want to work". ~s On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:16 PM, RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: > And while we are on the collective soap-box, I am just put another one out > there: Anyone who says they are looking for a "rockstar" programmer can > just forget about ever hearing from me. I realize that this may seem to be > kinda cute, from the surface. But, I'm frankly insulted by the notion that > to in order to be highly skilled software engineer: one has to be "cool" > enough (hence, said engineer would be deemed a "rockstar"). > > Just as I lament the fact that the media has reduced title of "hacker" to > that of a criminal. It angers me to see the (what I believe to be a rather > beautiful) craft of software engineering be reduced to that of some lame pop > icon. > > Anybody with me on this one? > > Ryan > > > On Oct 26, 2009, at 7:54 PM, Paul McNett wrote: > > Jeremy Fishman wrote: >> >>> Not sure how that might/might not apply to you, but I would be more >>> careful. It's also just plain insulting to some. >>> >> >> Indeed. I was insulted by the "young" and put off by the "aggressive". >> What happens when you put several aggressive types in a pit together? >> Aggression is to be avoided or circumvented at all costs, in my book! >> >> Good luck finding young aggressive python coders that are also smart. >> >> Paul >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleax at google.com Tue Oct 27 04:28:47 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:28:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0910262028g32dc4c66hbb7f2aa37535fbf6@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:16 PM, RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: > And while we are on the collective soap-box, I am just put another one out > there: ?Anyone who says they are looking for a "rockstar" programmer can > just forget about ever hearing from me. ?I realize that this may seem to be > kinda cute, from the surface. ?But, I'm frankly insulted by the notion that > to in order to be highly skilled software engineer: one has to be "cool" > enough (hence, said engineer would be deemed a "rockstar"). > > Just as I lament the fact that the media has reduced title of "hacker" to > that of a criminal. ?It angers me to see the (what I believe to be a rather > beautiful) craft of software engineering be reduced to that of some lame pop > icon. > > Anybody with me on this one? Depends on one's definition of "rock". I've heard Leonard Cohen's music described as such (which I consider totally crazy [1]), but if somebody was to say I'm the Leonard Cohen of programming [2] I'd hardly find it in me to take offense;-). I think "rock" has become meaningless enough through dilution that "star" and "rock star" carry about the same (modest) amount of information!-) Alex [1] well, the whole of U2 was terribly honored to be allowed to perform at Cohen's side (playing and doing backup vocals) in a testimonial, as they consider him their greatest source of inspiration and a living legend, and I guess most people _would_ accept that Bono is "a rock star", so I guess the case is not as cut-and-dried as all that;-). [2] or that my performance in technical presentations reminds them of Grace Slick, to give an example some might consider more rock-germane;-) From nick at stinemates.org Tue Oct 27 04:43:01 2009 From: nick at stinemates.org (nick at stinemates.org) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:43:01 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... Message-ID: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> Hello. New to the list. Found it on the python.org website and thought it would be cool to talk to other python developers from the Bay Area. From aleax at google.com Tue Oct 27 05:04:00 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:04:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> Message-ID: <55dc209b0910262104p106f6968n64f2c7d5287a048b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:43 PM, wrote: > Hello. New to the list. Found it on the python.org website and thought it would be cool to talk to other python developers from the Bay Area. Welcome Nick! Alex From sfseth at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 05:06:27 2009 From: sfseth at gmail.com (Seth Friedman) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:06:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0910262028g32dc4c66hbb7f2aa37535fbf6@mail.gmail.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> <55dc209b0910262028g32dc4c66hbb7f2aa37535fbf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64e45fca0910262106g7ff3bc1i454f39a37f936384@mail.gmail.com> I map "rockstar" culture to mean some number of contributors that are somehow perceived to be way more competent than some comparison. Culturally this just strikes me as a bad starting point for a company to be thinking of itself as. Great coding skills? Awesome. If no one can use resulting code but the one who wrote it, because the person who wrote it over-estimated how "good" it was, and can't be bothered to explain it? Clearly bad. I'm being caustic about it I recognize, but this is a real problem for contemporary software companies that advertise their jobs with this kind of swagger, that is my experience. I'm excited about a place when, regardless of coding skill level, their coordination skills are well understood. I believe it drives effectiveness of teams that are dependent on the coders, one of which, obviously, is users. Everyone writes code with bugs - the standard questions are: (a) are they understood (ie well enough to judge importance), (b) can they be resolved quickly, (c) can they be resolved quickly by person other than the person that wrote the original code. Code exists in the context of business and communication between *all* the teams required to make that happen effectively is paramount. "rockstar", for me, translates to "hobbyist" not business oriented software engineer. ~s On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:16 PM, RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: > > And while we are on the collective soap-box, I am just put another one > out > > there: Anyone who says they are looking for a "rockstar" programmer can > > just forget about ever hearing from me. I realize that this may seem to > be > > kinda cute, from the surface. But, I'm frankly insulted by the notion > that > > to in order to be highly skilled software engineer: one has to be "cool" > > enough (hence, said engineer would be deemed a "rockstar"). > > > > Just as I lament the fact that the media has reduced title of "hacker" to > > that of a criminal. It angers me to see the (what I believe to be a > rather > > beautiful) craft of software engineering be reduced to that of some lame > pop > > icon. > > > > Anybody with me on this one? > > Depends on one's definition of "rock". I've heard Leonard Cohen's > music described as such (which I consider totally crazy [1]), but if > somebody was to say I'm the Leonard Cohen of programming [2] I'd > hardly find it in me to take offense;-). I think "rock" has become > meaningless enough through dilution that "star" and "rock star" carry > about the same (modest) amount of information!-) > > Alex > > [1] well, the whole of U2 was terribly honored to be allowed to > perform at Cohen's side (playing and doing backup vocals) in a > testimonial, as they consider him their greatest source of inspiration > and a living legend, and I guess most people _would_ accept that Bono > is "a rock star", so I guess the case is not as cut-and-dried as all > that;-). > > [2] or that my performance in technical presentations reminds them of > Grace Slick, to give an example some might consider more > rock-germane;-) > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From keith at dartworks.biz Tue Oct 27 05:11:02 2009 From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:11:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> Message-ID: <20091026211102.06f26164@dartworks.biz> === On Mon, 10/26, nick at stinemates.org wrote: === > Hello. New to the list. Found it on the python.org website and > thought it would be cool to talk to other python developers from the > Bay Area. === Welcome, Nick! But I'm afraid you will find more discussions about hiring practices and recruiter etiquette than actual Python here. :-o But Python discussions are always welcome. So, what are you doing with Python? -- Keith Dart -- -- -------------------- Keith Dart ======================= From sfseth at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 05:11:13 2009 From: sfseth at gmail.com (Seth Friedman) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:11:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0910262104p106f6968n64f2c7d5287a048b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> <55dc209b0910262104p106f6968n64f2c7d5287a048b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64e45fca0910262111n5e33c71bgdfd32a1329a28f3b@mail.gmail.com> welcome^2! i'm not usually as cranky as I sounded tonight, if you joined in time for my earlier rants this evening. On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:43 PM, wrote: > > Hello. New to the list. Found it on the python.org website and thought > it would be cool to talk to other python developers from the Bay Area. > > Welcome Nick! > > > Alex > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Tue Oct 27 05:17:28 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:17:28 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] If you need a volunteer... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1256617048.4313.33.camel@jim-laptop> great! you're on. do the mc for our meeting on thursday 20091119. basically say "hi" at 7:30, announce the newbie nugget at 7:34, announce the main speaker whenever the newbie nugget is done, then manage the mapping segment, after all announcements, announce the random access and bid us all goodnight. jim 415 823 4590 my cellphone, call anytime On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 15:26 -0700, Glen Jarvis wrote: > If you need a volunteer, I can do introductions (for PyMite and for > Andrew) for our next BayPIGgies meeting. I'll open/introduce/call for > random access, etc. > > > Let me know if you need me too... > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Glen From nick at stinemates.org Tue Oct 27 05:23:38 2009 From: nick at stinemates.org (Nick Stinemates) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:23:38 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <20091026211102.06f26164@dartworks.biz> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> <20091026211102.06f26164@dartworks.biz> Message-ID: <20091027042338.GA28954@stinemates.org> Thanks for the warm welcome. Professionally I manage a group of 5 QA Engineers. Prior to that I was the Automation Lead at the same company where I developed test harnesses and automation tools for our products. The framework (aptly named ARF [automated regression framework]) houses over 20,000 automated test cases which get executed and reported on every build. Abilities include things like basic functional tests, integration tests, web service tests, performance/load/scalability tests (to measure the effect a commit had on specific portions of the product,) etc. It wraps the results up in a pretty report and creates a web based dashboard for everyone to see. Now that the foundation has been created, I mentor and assist my team in leveraging it to achieve their testing goals. In my spare time I try to contribute to the #python IRC channel, and am just now getting in to mailing lists. Also wouldn't mind finding some open source projects, but haven't found a python utility that I use often. What about you? On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 09:11:02PM -0700, Keith Dart wrote: > === On Mon, 10/26, nick at stinemates.org wrote: === > > Hello. New to the list. Found it on the python.org website and > > thought it would be cool to talk to other python developers from the > > Bay Area. > > === > > Welcome, Nick! But I'm afraid you will find more discussions about > hiring practices and recruiter etiquette than actual Python here. :-o > > But Python discussions are always welcome. > > So, what are you doing with Python? > > > -- Keith Dart > > -- > -- -------------------- > Keith Dart > > ======================= > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From nick at stinemates.org Tue Oct 27 05:23:38 2009 From: nick at stinemates.org (Nick Stinemates) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:23:38 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <20091026211102.06f26164@dartworks.biz> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> <20091026211102.06f26164@dartworks.biz> Message-ID: <20091027042338.GA28954@stinemates.org> Thanks for the warm welcome. Professionally I manage a group of 5 QA Engineers. Prior to that I was the Automation Lead at the same company where I developed test harnesses and automation tools for our products. The framework (aptly named ARF [automated regression framework]) houses over 20,000 automated test cases which get executed and reported on every build. Abilities include things like basic functional tests, integration tests, web service tests, performance/load/scalability tests (to measure the effect a commit had on specific portions of the product,) etc. It wraps the results up in a pretty report and creates a web based dashboard for everyone to see. Now that the foundation has been created, I mentor and assist my team in leveraging it to achieve their testing goals. In my spare time I try to contribute to the #python IRC channel, and am just now getting in to mailing lists. Also wouldn't mind finding some open source projects, but haven't found a python utility that I use often. What about you? On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 09:11:02PM -0700, Keith Dart wrote: > === On Mon, 10/26, nick at stinemates.org wrote: === > > Hello. New to the list. Found it on the python.org website and > > thought it would be cool to talk to other python developers from the > > Bay Area. > > === > > Welcome, Nick! But I'm afraid you will find more discussions about > hiring practices and recruiter etiquette than actual Python here. :-o > > But Python discussions are always welcome. > > So, what are you doing with Python? > > > -- Keith Dart > > -- > -- -------------------- > Keith Dart > > ======================= > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 05:41:37 2009 From: jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com (Jeremy Fishman) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:41:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> Message-ID: <1f7713e30910262141k364208ebo5a2473fa04382938@mail.gmail.com> Welcome, Nick! I, too, am new to the list and glad to have joined. I seem to have had a hand in brewing an interesting discussion earlier today :-D. Wish I had made it to the Django talks last weeks, but thanks so much for the videos Glen! I'm a new resident of Mtn View, a recent gradaute, and am currently finding work hopefully with as much Python involved as possible (though I'm a lover of all languages, Python is my mistress). Cheers, Jeremy -- Jeremy R Fishman jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com http://jfishman.org On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:43 PM, wrote: > Hello. New to the list. Found it on the python.org website and thought it > would be cool to talk to other python developers from the Bay Area. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From keith at dartworks.biz Tue Oct 27 05:58:51 2009 From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:58:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <20091027042338.GA28954@stinemates.org> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> <20091026211102.06f26164@dartworks.biz> <20091027042338.GA28954@stinemates.org> Message-ID: <20091026215851.386f68a2@dartworks.biz> === On Tue, 10/27, Nick Stinemates wrote: === > Prior to that I was the Automation Lead at the same company where I > developed test harnesses and automation tools for our products. === Well cool, that's what I use it for also. I'm writing a test automation framework right now. The code is all here (open source, thanks to my company): http://code.google.com/p/pycopia/ I'd appreciate any ideas you have. Basically, that contains several different groups of packages. You can also write network management utilities, interactive command lines, web sites, a telephone answering machine, test framework, lab manager, and other stuff. -- Keith Dart -- -- -------------------- Keith Dart ======================= From bender at onsrc.com Tue Oct 27 06:07:57 2009 From: bender at onsrc.com (RYAN DELUCCHI) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:07:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <1f7713e30910262141k364208ebo5a2473fa04382938@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> <1f7713e30910262141k364208ebo5a2473fa04382938@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D06FD9-9C58-4189-9CC0-FC9ED2781EF2@onsrc.com> Welcome: Jeremy and Nick! Yes, there has been a lot of interesting discussion here. And unfortunately I've only had the fortune to attend a single meeting before my new job has pulled me all the way out to Pleasanton. But, I'll drag myself over after work for a meeting soon. On Oct 26, 2009, at 9:41 PM, Jeremy Fishman wrote: > Welcome, Nick! > > I, too, am new to the list and glad to have joined. I seem to have > had a hand in brewing an interesting discussion earlier today :-D. > > Wish I had made it to the Django talks last weeks, but thanks so > much for the videos Glen! I'm a new resident of Mtn View, a recent > gradaute, and am currently finding work hopefully with as much > Python involved as possible (though I'm a lover of all languages, > Python is my mistress). > > Cheers, > Jeremy > > > -- > Jeremy R Fishman > jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com > http://jfishman.org > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:43 PM, wrote: > Hello. New to the list. Found it on the python.org website and > thought it would be cool to talk to other python developers from the > Bay Area. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roderick at sanfransystems.com Tue Oct 27 06:53:26 2009 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:53:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Etc References: Message-ID: When I posted my innocent seeming question: In your job posting, I see the following phrase: We are engineers, young, smart & aggressive Is this intended as a statement of the desired type of employee candidate? I was (hoping, wondering if? ) they would fall for it and actually say that they planned to discriminate on the basis of age, a protected class (at least some of the time as pointed out by Jeremy Fishman, thank you very much). I knew perfectly well that asking such a question would doom any chance I had of being employed there, but hell, I had zero chance anyway. I suppose the smart thing to do is to apply, and when I get rejected, get one of you young "rockstars" out there to apply, and then sue their butts. That might be my best strategy for making money now in the computer industry! I am considering asking my attorney about this posting.... legally, is an admission of intent to discriminate actionable, even before any actual discrimination has occurred? (my guess is no lol).. and of course the company will disassociate itself from Mr. Bott's statement you can bet. Tomorrow morning Chompapps will be calling THEIR attorney for sure! I kept my "innocent question" short also because I didn't want to harp on an issue I had brought up before. Now to do some harping: As far as Alex's post is concerned, my understanding is that when forming any kind of business or partnership (let alone personal or religious bonds) you are unconstrained by law. You can also discriminate in contracting as that is B2B and is unregulated. I believe the only regulated relationships are what is considered "employment". I also suspect that if every "employee" had to be a "partner" and this was used as a method of discriminating against a protected class, a jury would see right through it. We all know that these startup technology companies routinely DO discriminate on the basis of age and possibly along other axes as well. The problem is establishing proof in court. Most discrimination cases of any type are won only by showing statistically that, let's say, a much smaller percentage of women are hired for a given job class than would be expected. This means that only large employers (such as McDonald's), for which such statistics can be gathered, are likely to suffer any liability. For a small startup, hiring a few people here and there, they can always defend themselves by pointing to the individual differences between candidates other than the protected class difference (e.g., "we don't mind hiring older people, or women, or blacks, we just haven't seen any good ones"). As far as "rockstars" are concerned, I might make the following associations with them: 1. They use drugs extensively. 2. They have enormous egos, and think they know how to run the entire planet because they play guitar. 3. They drive cars way too fast, they're "aggressive" 4. They die young. 5. They have sex with anything that moves, and then move on. 6. They may make beautiful music, but totally lack any people skills... and they may even be proud of that. Sound familiar? Is this a desireable employee profile? More seriously, I think sometimes this connects to the above conversation about discrimination. Often companies know not to do what Mr. Bott did and directly state that they intend to discriminate. Instead they have more subtle messages, such as the following things I've seen in employment postings: 1. You must have a fast trigger finger in Half-Life. 2. We play loud alternative rock music all the time. 3. We really like snowboarding and encourage everybody to join in. 4. We are "rockstars"... (and unless we're talking Mick Jagger, they're all under 30 right?) 5. We are "young at heart" (remember that one from a month or so ago) These messages are designed to tell people over 40 or so that they are not wanted. Remember we're talking software companies here, not snowboard makers, who might more reasonably want only snowboarding enthusiasts. The messages here have nothing to do with snowboarding, guitar playing, or even Half-Life playing (unless it's a games company)... they have everything to do with age. I've seen other cases. Once many years ago I interviewed (with a headhunter) for a company that made software for police and fire departments. The recruiter carefully informed me that the actual cops with whom I would work were the ones who were pulled off the street because they were too violent, and were thus sentenced to desk jobs. And that these were the ones who hated homosexuals the most. He never told me not to apply if I were gay (it happens that I am)... he was telling me a little story about the customers. But the message was loud and clear. Anyway, enough ranting for now, sorry for the long post.... Anyone got a Python job out there for people who are not necessarily young and aggressive (but who are smart)? Thanks all of you, Rod Llewellyn From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Oct 27 07:16:36 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:16:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] If you need a volunteer... In-Reply-To: <1256617048.4313.33.camel@jim-laptop> References: <1256617048.4313.33.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: I will 'make it so.' Glen On Oct 26, 2009, at 9:17 PM, jim wrote: > > > great! you're on. do the mc for our meeting on > thursday 20091119. > basically say "hi" at 7:30, announce the newbie > nugget at 7:34, announce the main speaker whenever > the newbie nugget is done, then manage the mapping > segment, after all announcements, announce the > random access and bid us all goodnight. > jim > 415 823 4590 my cellphone, call anytime > > > > On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 15:26 -0700, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> If you need a volunteer, I can do introductions (for PyMite and for >> Andrew) for our next BayPIGgies meeting. I'll open/introduce/call for >> random access, etc. >> >> >> Let me know if you need me too... >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> >> Glen > From jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 07:18:37 2009 From: jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com (Jeremy Fishman) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:18:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f7713e30910262318w7d1592efl828935ecbec349a@mail.gmail.com> I was going to post yet another agreement-with-slight-variation but decided instead to play devils advocate here. Say a company (startup) is looking for employees and is in a position where long-term employment, compensation, and name-value cannot be guaranteed (startup). Such a position may skew heavily toward the younger demographic (I'm talking statistics here, not anyone's personal preference) due to mobility, risk taking, family, etc.. In this case, how can the company 'advertise' themselves attractively to young potentials without 'advertising' an age discrimination? (I aim this at the examples Rod provided of thinly veiled age-based marketing, with the assumption that the company is *not* in fact intending to discriminate in actual hires) - Jeremy -- Jeremy R Fishman jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com http://jfishman.org On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Roderick Llewellyn < roderick at sanfransystems.com> wrote: > When I posted my innocent seeming question: > In your job posting, I see the following phrase: > > We are engineers, young, smart & aggressive > > Is this intended as a statement of the desired type of employee candidate? > > I was (hoping, wondering if? ) they would fall for it and actually say that > they planned to discriminate on the basis of age, a protected class (at > least some of the time as pointed out by Jeremy Fishman, thank you very > much). I knew perfectly well that asking such a question would doom any > chance I had of being employed there, but hell, I had zero chance anyway. I > suppose the smart thing to do is to apply, and when I get rejected, get one > of you young "rockstars" out there to apply, and then sue their butts. That > might be my best strategy for making money now in the computer industry! I > am considering asking my attorney about this posting.... legally, is an > admission of intent to discriminate actionable, even before any actual > discrimination has occurred? (my guess is no lol).. and of course the > company will disassociate itself from Mr. Bott's statement you can bet. > Tomorrow morning Chompapps will be calling THEIR attorney for sure! > > I kept my "innocent question" short also because I didn't want to harp on > an issue I had brought up before. > > Now to do some harping: > As far as Alex's post is concerned, my understanding is that when forming > any kind of business or partnership (let alone personal or religious bonds) > you are unconstrained by law. You can also discriminate in contracting as > that is B2B and is unregulated. I believe the only regulated relationships > are what is considered "employment". I also suspect that if every "employee" > had to be a "partner" and this was used as a method of discriminating > against a protected class, a jury would see right through it. > > We all know that these startup technology companies routinely DO > discriminate on the basis of age and possibly along other axes as well. The > problem is establishing proof in court. Most discrimination cases of any > type are won only by showing statistically that, let's say, a much smaller > percentage of women are hired for a given job class than would be expected. > This means that only large employers (such as McDonald's), for which such > statistics can be gathered, are likely to suffer any liability. For a small > startup, hiring a few people here and there, they can always defend > themselves by pointing to the individual differences between candidates > other than the protected class difference (e.g., "we don't mind hiring older > people, or women, or blacks, we just haven't seen any good ones"). > > As far as "rockstars" are concerned, I might make the following > associations with them: > 1. They use drugs extensively. > 2. They have enormous egos, and think they know how to run the entire > planet because they play guitar. > 3. They drive cars way too fast, they're "aggressive" > 4. They die young. > 5. They have sex with anything that moves, and then move on. > 6. They may make beautiful music, but totally lack any people skills... and > they may even be proud of that. > Sound familiar? Is this a desireable employee profile? > > More seriously, I think sometimes this connects to the above conversation > about discrimination. Often companies know not to do what Mr. Bott did and > directly state that they intend to discriminate. Instead they have more > subtle messages, such as the following things I've seen in employment > postings: > 1. You must have a fast trigger finger in Half-Life. > 2. We play loud alternative rock music all the time. > 3. We really like snowboarding and encourage everybody to join in. > 4. We are "rockstars"... (and unless we're talking Mick Jagger, they're all > under 30 right?) > 5. We are "young at heart" (remember that one from a month or so ago) > These messages are designed to tell people over 40 or so that they are not > wanted. Remember we're talking software companies here, not snowboard > makers, who might more reasonably want only snowboarding enthusiasts. The > messages here have nothing to do with snowboarding, guitar playing, or even > Half-Life playing (unless it's a games company)... they have everything to > do with age. > > I've seen other cases. Once many years ago I interviewed (with a > headhunter) for a company that made software for police and fire > departments. The recruiter carefully informed me that the actual cops with > whom I would work were the ones who were pulled off the street because they > were too violent, and were thus sentenced to desk jobs. And that these were > the ones who hated homosexuals the most. He never told me not to apply if I > were gay (it happens that I am)... he was telling me a little story about > the customers. But the message was loud and clear. > > Anyway, enough ranting for now, sorry for the long post.... Anyone got a > Python job out there for people who are not necessarily young and aggressive > (but who are smart)? > > Thanks all of you, > Rod Llewellyn > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon at inklesspen.com Tue Oct 27 07:23:01 2009 From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:23:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Etc In-Reply-To: <1f7713e30910262318w7d1592efl828935ecbec349a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f7713e30910262318w7d1592efl828935ecbec349a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8B880C31-5E0B-4F0A-9689-9ABA2EE953C4@inklesspen.com> On Oct 26, 2009, at 11:18 PM, Jeremy Fishman wrote: > I was going to post yet another agreement-with-slight-variation but > decided instead to play devils advocate here. > > Say a company (startup) is looking for employees and is in a > position where long-term employment, compensation, and name-value > cannot be guaranteed (startup). Such a position may skew heavily > toward the younger demographic (I'm talking statistics here, not > anyone's personal preference) due to mobility, risk taking, family, > etc.. In this case, how can the company 'advertise' themselves > attractively to young potentials without 'advertising' an age > discrimination? I think they may simply state that due to the nature of startup life, nothing is a guarantee (though, when is it ever?) and invite people who are uncomfortable with that idea to apply elsewhere. I'm sure anyone too settled in his or her ways to live with this sort of setup will gat the hint. From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Oct 27 07:23:44 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:23:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <45D06FD9-9C58-4189-9CC0-FC9ED2781EF2@onsrc.com> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> <1f7713e30910262141k364208ebo5a2473fa04382938@mail.gmail.com> <45D06FD9-9C58-4189-9CC0-FC9ED2781EF2@onsrc.com> Message-ID: > Wish I had made it to the Django talks last weeks, but thanks so > much for the videos Glen! Not a problem. Unfortunately this isn't letterboxed yet so the video is 'stretched.'. We were missing an audio cable and couldn't mic the sound again, unfortunately. I will have the next two clips finished this week. These are Richard's talk on templates, and my talk on South. But, you should check out Simeon's talk (posted), links, slides and blog. I just installed the Django toolbar today. It was incredibly easy to install and setup. Take care everyone, Glen On Oct 26, 2009, at 10:07 PM, RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: > Wish I had made it to the Django talks last weeks, but thanks so > much for the videos Glen! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 07:26:20 2009 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:26:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> Message-ID: > Anybody with me on this one? Rockstars are okay, but I hate working with cowboys ;) By the way, I'm personally offended that you guys only want to hire smart people ;) > young, smart & aggressive Can you imagine it? A whole company fully of people like Theo de Raadt! ;) -jj -- In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. -- Mother Teresa http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From kelly at nttmcl.com Tue Oct 27 08:41:10 2009 From: kelly at nttmcl.com (Kelly Yancey) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:41:10 +0900 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <64e45fca0910262106g7ff3bc1i454f39a37f936384@mail.gmail.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> <55dc209b0910262028g32dc4c66hbb7f2aa37535fbf6@mail.gmail.com> <64e45fca0910262106g7ff3bc1i454f39a37f936384@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE6A416.2000905@nttmcl.com> Seth Friedman wrote: > I map "rockstar" culture to mean some number of contributors that are > somehow perceived to be way more competent than some comparison. > Culturally this just strikes me as a bad starting point for a company to > be thinking of itself as. Great coding skills? Awesome. If no one can > use resulting code but the one who wrote it, because the person who > wrote it over-estimated how "good" it was, and can't be bothered to > explain it? Clearly bad. I'm being caustic about it I recognize, but > this is a real problem for contemporary software companies that > advertise their jobs with this kind of swagger, that is my experience. > > I'm excited about a place when, regardless of coding skill level, their > coordination skills are well understood. I believe it drives > effectiveness of teams that are dependent on the coders, one of which, > obviously, is users. Everyone writes code with bugs - the standard > questions are: (a) are they understood (ie well enough to judge > importance), (b) can they be resolved quickly, (c) can they be resolved > quickly by person other than the person that wrote the original > code. Code exists in the context of business and communication > between *all* the teams required to make that happen effectively is > paramount. "rockstar", for me, translates to "hobbyist" not business > oriented software engineer. > I concur. When I see "rockstar" in a Software Engineer advertisement, I read that as "overconfident and cocky". Rockstars are brazen and rash, not contemplative and deliberate. I'm not sure I'd want to work with a rockstar programmer, and "rockstar engineer" is just an oxymoron. Perhaps I'm just reading too much into the word, though. It could just be HR code for "clothing optional & flexible work hours". Kelly From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Oct 27 16:11:29 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:11:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091027151129.GB6702@panix.com> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009, Roderick Llewellyn wrote: > > When I posted my innocent seeming question: > In your job posting, I see the following phrase: > > We are engineers, young, smart & aggressive > > Is this intended as a statement of the desired type of employee candidate? > > I was (hoping, wondering if? ) they would fall for it and actually say > that they planned to discriminate on the basis of age, a protected class > [...] Challenging a job posting is certainly reasonable; however, this rant veers too off-topic for my taste. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f From gregcheong at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 16:13:27 2009 From: gregcheong at gmail.com (Greg Cheong) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:13:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rod, Not trying to detract from all the good points you're making, but who is the Mr. Bott you are referring to? Jaime Bott is a woman. -Greg From asimjalis at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 16:37:35 2009 From: asimjalis at gmail.com (Asim Jalis) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:37:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88d9159a0910270837s3597d56m4ba9c186cd526905@mail.gmail.com> > ?We are engineers, young, smart & aggressive When I read this I just saw someone trying to apply the rule of three: "The rule of three is a principle in English writing that suggests that things that come in threes are inherently funnier, more satisfying, or more effective than other numbers of things." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_three_(writing) From rich at noir.com Tue Oct 27 17:06:39 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:06:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> Message-ID: <4AE71A8F.4080100@noir.com> I think there's a huge difference between a "rock star" and a manufactured pop icon. Hannah Montana is a pop icon but she is not a rock star. Danny Elfman is still a rock star, (IMO), but he's no longer a pop icon, (if he ever was). --rich From rich at noir.com Tue Oct 27 17:09:26 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:09:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <1f7713e30910262141k364208ebo5a2473fa04382938@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> <1f7713e30910262141k364208ebo5a2473fa04382938@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE71B36.8050604@noir.com> Welcome. I'm relatively new too. I've been around for a few weeks. --rich From rich at noir.com Tue Oct 27 17:12:37 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:12:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Etc In-Reply-To: <1f7713e30910262318w7d1592efl828935ecbec349a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f7713e30910262318w7d1592efl828935ecbec349a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE71BF5.4030608@noir.com> Jeremy Fishman wrote: > I was going to post yet another agreement-with-slight-variation but > decided instead to play devils advocate here. > > Say a company (startup) is looking for employees and is in a position > where long-term employment, compensation, and name-value cannot be > guaranteed (startup). Such a position may skew heavily toward the > younger demographic (I'm talking statistics here, not anyone's > personal preference) due to mobility, risk taking, family, etc.. In > this case, how can the company 'advertise' themselves attractively to > young potentials without 'advertising' an age discrimination? By doing what you've just done - appealing to the characteristics they offer and are looking for rather than associating those characteristics with age. Not everyone who is young is risk friendly and not everyone who is older is risk averse, for instance. --rich From jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 17:28:48 2009 From: jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com (Jeremy Fishman) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:28:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Frameworks Message-ID: <1f7713e30910270928n3f190157r26d18b07f35fdf47@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Since moving here I've found a lot of great places for discussion of Django. However, there has been little mention of Zope, Pylons or TurboGears, Twisted/Nevow, CherryPy, etc. Do any of you work with these, know people who do, or ideally know a group (this one?) that holds meetups focused on any of these? (I would especially love Twisted news) Sorry if I left anyone's favorite project out, Jeremy -- Jeremy R Fishman jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com http://jfishman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wescpy at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 18:06:10 2009 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:06:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ANN: Python course, San Francisco, Nov 9-11 In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580910271004ve2afee8j3b222c374dea0d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <78b3a9580910271004ve2afee8j3b222c374dea0d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <78b3a9580910271006q7c628ec1vc4102f93fbc0fb5a@mail.gmail.com> *FINAL REMINDER* come join us for another hardcore Python training course in San Bruno coming up in a few weeks! we have a few more slots available. bring your co-workers to take advantage of our multiple registration discount. we also feature a steeper discount for those who are primary/secondary teachers, students, as well as to those who have been more severely impacted by the economy. here is my original announcement for more info: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2009-September/196228.html hope to meet you soon! -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 "Python Fundamentals", Prentice Hall, (c)2009 ? ?http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From donnamsnow at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 18:12:07 2009 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:12:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Frameworks In-Reply-To: <1f7713e30910270928n3f190157r26d18b07f35fdf47@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f7713e30910270928n3f190157r26d18b07f35fdf47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It's funny how no one ever mentions Plone LOL It's been around for nearly 10 years now - even I'm not using it as much lately- but it's not well known even though it's used by NASA, CIA, Akamai, Discover Magazine and bunches of Universities. I've formed a group called ZPUG Valley that will focus on python frameworks. We meet at the Hacker Dojo in Mountain View once a month and will be covering Zope, Repoze.bfg, Pylons, Grok, TurboGears, Plone, Twisted, Django, etc etc. Anything that is a python based web framework. Although I personally have a preference for Plone because I've been working with it so long but there are some awesome wsgi based python implementations that I'm also highly interested in (repoze.bfg being one of them) Our next meeting is November 4, 2009 http://www.meetup.com/ZPUG-Valley It's a Django talk by one of the core Django guys We are just forming so regular meeting dates haven't been established. RSVP if you think you can make it :-) BTW, if you haven't already done it drop by the Hacker Dojo for a visit/tour. Great, interesting group of people! I volunteer on Wednesday and Friday all day and Charles Merriam is there beginning of the week usually. It is busiest in the evening. Free wifi and we have coffee too! Donna 'SnowWrite' Snow card.ly/snowwrite Principal, C Squared Enterprises illuminating your path to Open Source Founder, GirlsLuvTech facebook.com/girlsluvtech On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Jeremy Fishman wrote: > Hi all, > > Since moving here I've found a lot of great places for discussion of > Django. However, there has been little mention of Zope, Pylons or > TurboGears, Twisted/Nevow, CherryPy, etc. Do any of you work with these, > know people who do, or ideally know a group (this one?) that holds meetups > focused on any of these? (I would especially love Twisted news) > > Sorry if I left anyone's favorite project out, > Jeremy > > > -- > Jeremy R Fishman > jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com > http://jfishman.org > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Reitmeyer_Richard at emc.com Tue Oct 27 17:59:35 2009 From: Reitmeyer_Richard at emc.com (Reitmeyer_Richard at emc.com) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:59:35 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] Conditional Context Managers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, all. Alex's "welcome" motivated me to toss in a python question that's been nagging me for a while. Python has made me very suspicious of anything that takes more than a little typing, AKA "lazy," and I've a problem whose solutions all offend my sensibilities. Summary: How do people do conditional "with" statements? Exposition: Long ago I wrote some code that took a file object, reads the lines, and does a little processing. def foo(file_obj): lines = [ l.strip() for l in file_obj.readlines() ] # etc. return lines[0] # for example purposes Sometimes I'd call as foo(sys.stdin), sometimes I'd call after opening and before closing a file. This evolved to be slightly friendlier for interactive testing by letting it accept a fileobj or a filename. def foo2(file_obj_or_name): file_obj = file_obj_or_name if isinstance(file_obj, str): file_obj = open(file_obj_or_name) lines = [ l.strip() for l in file_obj.readlines() ] # etc. if isinstance(file_obj, str): # danger, not exception-safe file_obj.close() return lines[0] Question and possible answers: Of course with the advent of context managers, I'd really like to use "with" to avoid the ugliness of the second "if" and the lack of exception safety. My question for the list is what people think is the best way to make that work. 1) Repeat the guts, w/ possible refactor of guts. def foo_guts(file_obj): lines = [ l.strip() for l in file_obj.readlines() ] # etc. return lines[0] def foo3(file_obj_or_name): file_obj = file_obj_or_name if isinstance(file_obj, str): with open(file_obj_or_name) as file_obj: retval = foo_guts(file_obj) else: retval = foo_guts(file_obj) return retval 2) Make "trinary with" using the and/or hack. def foo4(file_obj_or_name): file_obj = file_obj_or_name with isinstance(file_obj, str) and \ open(file_obj_or_name) or file_obj as file_obj: retval = foo_guts(file_obj) return retval 3) Write a entire context manager. class FileFromObjOrNameCM(object): def __init__(self, file_obj_or_name): self.file_obj_or_name = file_obj_or_name def __enter__(self): if isinstance(self.file_obj_or_name, str): self.file_obj = open(self.file_obj_or_name) else: self.file_obj = self.file_obj_or_name return self.file_obj def __exit__(self, exc_type, exc_value, traceback): if isinstance(self.file_obj_or_name, str): self.file_obj.close() def foo5(file_obj_or_name): file_obj = file_obj_or_name with FileFromObjOrNameCM(file_obj_or_name) as file_obj: retval = foo_guts(file_obj) return retval All of these work, but they are also either 1) ugly; 2) more typing than it feels like it should take. Thoughts? Richard From janssen at parc.com Tue Oct 27 17:25:03 2009 From: janssen at parc.com (Bill Janssen) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:25:03 PDT Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> Message-ID: <347.1256660703@parc.com> Paul McNett

wrote: > Jeremy Fishman wrote: > > Not sure how that might/might not apply to you, but I would be more > > careful. It's also just plain insulting to some. > > Indeed. I was insulted by the "young" and put off by the > "aggressive". What happens when you put several aggressive types in a > pit together? Aggression is to be avoided or circumvented at all > costs, in my book! > > Good luck finding young aggressive python coders that are also smart. Maybe they're taking success advice from Mark Zuckerberg: ?I want to stress the importance of being young and technical,? he stated. If you want to found a successful company, you should only hire young people with technical expertise. ?Young people are just smarter,? he said with a straight face. ?Why are most chess masters under 30?? he asked. ?I don?t know,? he answered. ?Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family.? In the absence of those distractions, he says, you can focus on big ideologies. He added, ?I only own a mattress.? Later: ?Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what?s important.? http://venturebeat.com/2007/03/26/start-up-advice-for-entrepreneurs-from-y-combinator-startup-school/ Bill From rich at noir.com Tue Oct 27 18:45:32 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:45:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Conditional Context Managers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE731BC.3020806@noir.com> I'm pretty new to python, so take me with a spoonful of sugar. Your #2 doesn't work. The thing in the "with" statement isn't a conditional. It's something that returns a context manager. All of your ".readlines()" are redundant and can simply be dropped. A file object is an iterator which returns the lines of it's content. And you don't really want to iterate through all of those anyway. If your datafile happens to have a billion lines, you can just skip reading those other billion - 1. Personally, I'd make it a class because I think explicit type testing should be limited to very specific cases of language rewriting. So... class foo(object): import sys def __init__(this, descriptor = sys.stdin): this.descriptor = descriptor @staticmethod def domumble(descriptor): for line in this.descriptor: return line.strip() def __call__(this): return this.domumble(this.descriptor) class foo2(foo): def __init__(this, filename): this.filename = filename def __call__(this): with open(this.filename) as f: return this.domumble(f) Now you use it like: results = foo(sys.stdin)() or results = foo2('myfile')() --rich From dalke at dalkescientific.com Tue Oct 27 19:22:18 2009 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:22:18 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Conditional Context Managers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94DE3B4E-093A-49ED-88E5-A41A1F4F7629@dalkescientific.com> On Oct 27, 2009, at 5:59 PM, wrote: > How do people do conditional "with" statements? I've not yet had to deal with that case, but to point out > Question and possible answers: > 1) Repeat the guts, w/ possible refactor of guts. > 2) Make "trinary with" using the and/or hack. > > def foo4(file_obj_or_name): > file_obj = file_obj_or_name > with isinstance(file_obj, str) and \ > open(file_obj_or_name) or file_obj as file_obj: > retval = foo_guts(file_obj) > > return retval > Mmm, that doesn't work. I thought the point was that you didn't want to close file_obj if the input wasn't a filename, but the file context manager will do that for you. Here's my test program (with a few bug fixes) import sys import sys # this is the first line # This is the second line def process(file_obj_or_name): with isinstance(file_obj_or_name, str) and \ open(file_obj_or_name) or file_obj_or_name as file_obj: print "First line", repr(file_obj.readline()) sys.stdout.write("Finished with %r\n" % (file_obj_or_name,)) process("/etc/passwd") f = open(__file__) process(f) process(f) Running it gives me: First line '##\n' Finished with '/etc/passwd' First line 'import sys # this is the first line\n' Finished with Traceback (most recent call last): File "conditional_with.py", line 25, in process(f) File "conditional_with.py", line 18, in process open(file_obj_or_name) or file_obj_or_name as file_obj: ValueError: I/O operation on closed file > 3) Write a entire context manager. There are at least two other solutions: 4) Break it up into a subfunction, which is rather like your #1 with refactoring import sys # this is the first line # This is the second line def process(file_obj_or_name): if isinstance(file_obj_or_name, str): with open(file_obj_or_name) as file_obj: _process(file_obj) else: _process(file_obj_or_name) sys.stdout.write("Finished with %r\n" % (file_obj_or_name,)) def _process(file_obj): print "First line", repr(file_obj.readline()) process("/etc/passwd") f = open(__file__) process(f) process(f) 5) Use a function which returns a simpler context manager only for the existing file handle case import sys # this is the first line # This is the second line class Nonclosing(object): def __init__(self, fileobj): self.fileobj = fileobj def __enter__(self, *args): return self.fileobj def __exit__(self, *args): pass def _open(file_obj_or_name): if isinstance(file_obj_or_name, str): return open(file_obj_or_name) return Nonclosing(file_obj_or_name) def process(file_obj_or_name): with _open(file_obj_or_name) as file_obj: print "First line", repr(file_obj.readline()) sys.stdout.write("Finished with %r\n" % (file_obj_or_name,)) process("/etc/passwd") f = open(__file__) process(f) process(f) the output of which is First line '##\n' Finished with '/etc/passwd' First line 'import sys # this is the first line\n' Finished with First line '# This is the second line\n' Finished with Of these I prefer #4 because it's the least number of lines of code, but it does require more code rewriting. Otherwise #5 is I think a good alternative, and it works better over a wider range of problems. Andrew dalke at dalkescientific.com From aleax at google.com Tue Oct 27 19:24:19 2009 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:24:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <6EF39A17-5FC3-414E-BA19-46EBEA73FC3E@onsrc.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0910271124n120bfa3cif1d934698592ae49@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: ... >> young, smart & aggressive > > Can you imagine it? ?A whole company fully of people like Theo de Raadt! ;) 41 counts as "young" nowadays...? Alex From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Oct 27 19:29:32 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:29:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Conditional Context Managers In-Reply-To: <94DE3B4E-093A-49ED-88E5-A41A1F4F7629@dalkescientific.com> References: <94DE3B4E-093A-49ED-88E5-A41A1F4F7629@dalkescientific.com> Message-ID: <20091027182932.GA29485@panix.com> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009, Andrew Dalke wrote: > > def process(file_obj_or_name): > with isinstance(file_obj_or_name, str) and \ > open(file_obj_or_name) or file_obj_or_name as file_obj: > print "First line", repr(file_obj.readline()) > sys.stdout.write("Finished with %r\n" % (file_obj_or_name,)) Anyone using ``with`` ought to use the real ternary (reformatted to my preference ;-): with ( open(file_obj_or_name) if isinstance(file_obj_or_name, str) else file_obj_or_name ) as file_obj: -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f From jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 20:21:27 2009 From: jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com (Jeremy Fishman) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:21:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Conditional Context Managers In-Reply-To: <20091027182932.GA29485@panix.com> References: <94DE3B4E-093A-49ED-88E5-A41A1F4F7629@dalkescientific.com> <20091027182932.GA29485@panix.com> Message-ID: <1f7713e30910271221t61a6237at156a2580c2ca66f2@mail.gmail.com> Neat syntax! Still doesn't account for the closing of a non-named file argument, though. This is uncanny timing, as I just ran into this issue today and came up with this: def foo(f_obj_or_name): if isinstance(f_obj_or_name, str): with open(f_obj_or_name) as f_obj: return foo(f_obj) [...] # do file processing My problem actually involved both and input and output file... ugh, doubled the above code Cheers! - Jeremy -- Jeremy R Fishman jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com http://jfishman.org On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Aahz wrote: > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009, Andrew Dalke wrote: > > > > def process(file_obj_or_name): > > with isinstance(file_obj_or_name, str) and \ > > open(file_obj_or_name) or file_obj_or_name as file_obj: > > print "First line", repr(file_obj.readline()) > > sys.stdout.write("Finished with %r\n" % (file_obj_or_name,)) > > Anyone using ``with`` ought to use the real ternary (reformatted to my > preference ;-): > > with ( > open(file_obj_or_name) > if isinstance(file_obj_or_name, str) > else file_obj_or_name > ) as file_obj: > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> > http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- > at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of > snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From voidref at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 23:13:43 2009 From: voidref at gmail.com (Alan Westbrook) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:13:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <4AE71B36.8050604@noir.com> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> <1f7713e30910262141k364208ebo5a2473fa04382938@mail.gmail.com> <4AE71B36.8050604@noir.com> Message-ID: <5df1e9b00910271513i7f27b413hbba5f2b2af09fd43@mail.gmail.com> Welcome, I'm new too. I went to my first Piggies meeting last week and it was quite interesting, I would highly recommend you trying to make the next one. I am currently writing a Google Wave robot in python that does code syntax highlighting. Alan On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:09 AM, K. Richard Pixley wrote: > Welcome. > > I'm relatively new too. ?I've been around for a few weeks. > > --rich > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From glen at glenjarvis.com Wed Oct 28 01:08:25 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:08:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Video 'subcommittee' Message-ID: I have to tell you, I love this community. When we left Google, with the help of some BayPIGgies, we got videos and a borrowed microphones. It's been a *heck* of a lot of work, however, and we've always been spotty getting videos out the door. Well, a lot of people have been helping lately.. and, although I tried to hire it out, the volunteers are doing a better job. Sooo.. if you're interested in participating in the Open Source Video creation committee -- completely unofficial of course -- please let me know :) It's nice to have help and it helps keep things moving along. Cheers, Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nick at stinemates.org Wed Oct 28 01:17:10 2009 From: nick at stinemates.org (Nick Stinemates) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:17:10 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <5df1e9b00910271513i7f27b413hbba5f2b2af09fd43@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> <1f7713e30910262141k364208ebo5a2473fa04382938@mail.gmail.com> <4AE71B36.8050604@noir.com> <5df1e9b00910271513i7f27b413hbba5f2b2af09fd43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091028001710.GA32224@stinemates.org> Do you have a Google Wave invite, by any chance? I would love to check it out and see what the hype is about, and we can test robots with each other! On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 03:13:43PM -0700, Alan Westbrook wrote: > Welcome, I'm new too. > > I went to my first Piggies meeting last week and it was quite > interesting, I would highly recommend you trying to make the next one. > > I am currently writing a Google Wave robot in python that does code > syntax highlighting. > > Alan > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:09 AM, K. Richard Pixley wrote: > > Welcome. > > > > I'm relatively new too. ??I've been around for a few weeks. > > > > --rich > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From roderick at sanfransystems.com Wed Oct 28 02:23:47 2009 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:23:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job - Salary Questions References: Message-ID: Thanks those of you who responded to my questions about salary requirements on application forms. I have been checking out some of the sites mentioned by you. The Rands in Repose site has some good information, although it is obviously directed towards young people who are now currently working, basically the opposite of my situation. The salary.com site yields numbers compatible with those I've given on these forms, though knowing how one fits into salary.com's "Software Engineer X" (where X goes from 1 to 5) is unclear. I think I agree with those who say that if they ask for a number, one shouldn't bother working for them. A firm's asking for these numbers actually suggests insecurity on its part about what they should pay. Perhaps they are just fishing for income information and don't intend to hire anybody. Again thanks, Rod L. From voidref at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 02:34:35 2009 From: voidref at gmail.com (Alan Westbrook) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:34:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New to the list... In-Reply-To: <20091028001710.GA32224@stinemates.org> References: <20091027034301.GA28847@stinemates.org> <1f7713e30910262141k364208ebo5a2473fa04382938@mail.gmail.com> <4AE71B36.8050604@noir.com> <5df1e9b00910271513i7f27b413hbba5f2b2af09fd43@mail.gmail.com> <20091028001710.GA32224@stinemates.org> Message-ID: <5df1e9b00910271834u38d23004ob5b7a1c4b972dc26@mail.gmail.com> I wish it was that easy, I have never gotten any invites that I could pass out, apparently only the first 100k who were chosen got to choose 8 friends. I'll certainly alert the list if I ever have any spare invites to pass out though! On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Nick Stinemates wrote: > Do you have a Google Wave invite, by any chance? I would love to check it out and see what the hype is about, and we can test robots with each > other! > > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 03:13:43PM -0700, Alan Westbrook wrote: >> Welcome, I'm new too. >> >> I went to my first Piggies meeting last week and it was quite >> interesting, I would highly recommend you trying to make the next one. >> >> I am currently writing a Google Wave robot in python that does code >> syntax highlighting. >> >> Alan >> >> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:09 AM, K. Richard Pixley wrote: >> > Welcome. >> > >> > I'm relatively new too. ??I've been around for a few weeks. >> > >> > --rich >> > _______________________________________________ From jeff.enderwick at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 03:22:56 2009 From: jeff.enderwick at gmail.com (Jeff Enderwick) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:22:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <347.1256660703@parc.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <347.1256660703@parc.com> Message-ID: When I was young(er), I was an idiot. Or maybe I was more of an idiot. It could be that Mr. Zuckerberg is suffering from the same problem right now. On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Bill Janssen wrote: > Paul McNett

wrote: > > > Jeremy Fishman wrote: > > > Not sure how that might/might not apply to you, but I would be more > > > careful. It's also just plain insulting to some. > > > > Indeed. I was insulted by the "young" and put off by the > > "aggressive". What happens when you put several aggressive types in a > > pit together? Aggression is to be avoided or circumvented at all > > costs, in my book! > > > > Good luck finding young aggressive python coders that are also smart. > > Maybe they're taking success advice from Mark Zuckerberg: > > ?I want to stress the importance of being young and technical,? he > stated. If you want to found a successful company, you should only hire > young people with technical expertise. > > ?Young people are just smarter,? he said with a straight face. ?Why are > most chess masters under 30?? he asked. ?I don?t know,? he > answered. ?Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a > car. We may not have family.? In the absence of those distractions, he > says, you can focus on big ideologies. He added, ?I only own a > mattress.? Later: ?Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what?s > important.? > > > http://venturebeat.com/2007/03/26/start-up-advice-for-entrepreneurs-from-y-combinator-startup-school/ > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathan at yergler.net Wed Oct 28 03:28:30 2009 From: nathan at yergler.net (Nathan Yergler) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:28:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job - Salary Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53039e7b0910271928n3102742dy16c0610d9fdc39ea@mail.gmail.com> God forbid that I prolong this thread, but I'd like to offer a data point which counters this. I don't claim that it's representative, only factual. I was considering applying for a position with an east coast company that does all Python, and they explicitly state that they require "salary requirements" with resumes. I was chatting with the CTO at PyCon that year and expressed my reservations about that. He basically said, "look, it's in no one's interest for us to talk to people who require a salary outside our means; it's not a good use of time and it's not fiscally responsible for us to convince ourselves that they're worth it and stretch ourselves too thin. It's also not in our best interest to pay someone just what they require if we want to retain them. So hopefully people see it as an opportunity to start a mutually beneficial, trusting relationship." I think the thing that struck me was that I was assuming "the man" was out to get me, and here the man was saying "we're trusting you to do our business, we require some trust in return." I applied, stated my requirements (with some justification), and received an offer at the top end of the range I specified. I wound up turning it down for reasons unrelated to salary, but the experience does make me approach that question differently these days. FWIW, Nathan On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Roderick Llewellyn wrote: > Thanks those of you who responded to my questions about salary requirements > on application forms. I have been checking out some of the sites mentioned > by you. The Rands in Repose site has some good information, although it is > obviously directed towards young people who are now currently working, > basically the opposite of my situation. The salary.com site yields numbers > compatible with those I've given on these forms, though knowing how one fits > into salary.com's "Software Engineer X" (where X goes from 1 to 5) is > unclear. > I think I agree with those who say that if they ask for a number, one > shouldn't bother working for them. A firm's asking for these numbers > actually suggests insecurity on its part about what they should pay. Perhaps > they are just fishing for income information and don't intend to hire > anybody. > Again thanks, > Rod L. > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From andrew at atoulou.se Wed Oct 28 03:38:27 2009 From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andrew Akira Toulouse) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:38:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <347.1256660703@parc.com> Message-ID: I think his point was that generally speaking, the younger you are, the more inclined you are to work hard and not be distracted by the sorts of things young people like us generally assume older people have to think about, like houses, spouses, insurance, medical stuff, and all that stuff. By no means is Zuck an idiot - I interned at Facebook and saw him do his job, and he's a damn good CEO. --Andy On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:22 PM, Jeff Enderwick wrote: > When I was young(er), I was an idiot. Or maybe I was more of an idiot. It > could be that Mr. Zuckerberg is suffering from the same problem right now. > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Bill Janssen wrote: >> >> Paul McNett

wrote: >> >> > Jeremy Fishman wrote: >> > > Not sure how that might/might not apply to you, but I would be more >> > > careful. ?It's also just plain insulting to some. >> > >> > Indeed. I was insulted by the "young" and put off by the >> > "aggressive". What happens when you put several aggressive types in a >> > pit together? Aggression is to be avoided or circumvented at all >> > costs, in my book! >> > >> > Good luck finding young aggressive python coders that are also smart. >> >> Maybe they're taking success advice from Mark Zuckerberg: >> >> ?I want to stress the importance of being young and technical,? he >> stated. If you want to found a successful company, you should only hire >> young people with technical expertise. >> >> ?Young people are just smarter,? he said with a straight face. ?Why are >> most chess masters under 30?? he asked. ?I don?t know,? he >> answered. ?Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a >> car. We may not have family.? In the absence of those distractions, he >> says, you can focus on big ideologies. He added, ?I only own a >> mattress.? Later: ?Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what?s >> important.? >> >> >> http://venturebeat.com/2007/03/26/start-up-advice-for-entrepreneurs-from-y-combinator-startup-school/ >> >> Bill >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jeff.enderwick at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 04:07:34 2009 From: jeff.enderwick at gmail.com (Jeff Enderwick) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:07:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <347.1256660703@parc.com> Message-ID: What he said was idiotic. I have no information as to whether that's a regular thing for him. I'm currently doing some work with a guy in his 60s. His mental plasticity is as good as any I've seen. His kids are in their 20s, and he works day & night because he loves to do it. The guy used to have an SVP position at a large online financial, now he's back to banging code. I've worked at startups where people were in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s (startups that resulted in shipping, selling products, and a great exit for the investors and employees as well). This age crap is insulting. Back to Python ... On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Andrew Akira Toulouse wrote: > I think his point was that generally speaking, the younger you are, > the more inclined you are to work hard and not be distracted by the > sorts of things young people like us generally assume older people > have to think about, like houses, spouses, insurance, medical stuff, > and all that stuff. By no means is Zuck an idiot - I interned at > Facebook and saw him do his job, and he's a damn good CEO. > > --Andy > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:22 PM, Jeff Enderwick > wrote: > > When I was young(er), I was an idiot. Or maybe I was more of an idiot. It > > could be that Mr. Zuckerberg is suffering from the same problem right > now. > > > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Bill Janssen wrote: > >> > >> Paul McNett

wrote: > >> > >> > Jeremy Fishman wrote: > >> > > Not sure how that might/might not apply to you, but I would be more > >> > > careful. It's also just plain insulting to some. > >> > > >> > Indeed. I was insulted by the "young" and put off by the > >> > "aggressive". What happens when you put several aggressive types in a > >> > pit together? Aggression is to be avoided or circumvented at all > >> > costs, in my book! > >> > > >> > Good luck finding young aggressive python coders that are also smart. > >> > >> Maybe they're taking success advice from Mark Zuckerberg: > >> > >> ?I want to stress the importance of being young and technical,? he > >> stated. If you want to found a successful company, you should only hire > >> young people with technical expertise. > >> > >> ?Young people are just smarter,? he said with a straight face. ?Why are > >> most chess masters under 30?? he asked. ?I don?t know,? he > >> answered. ?Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a > >> car. We may not have family.? In the absence of those distractions, he > >> says, you can focus on big ideologies. He added, ?I only own a > >> mattress.? Later: ?Simplicity in life allows you to focus on what?s > >> important.? > >> > >> > >> > http://venturebeat.com/2007/03/26/start-up-advice-for-entrepreneurs-from-y-combinator-startup-school/ > >> > >> Bill > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nick at stinemates.org Wed Oct 28 04:12:26 2009 From: nick at stinemates.org (Nick Stinemates) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:12:26 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Frameworks In-Reply-To: References: <1f7713e30910270928n3f190157r26d18b07f35fdf47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091028031226.GA32661@stinemates.org> Sounds like a blast. I will see if the wife will let me go :) On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:12:07AM -0700, Donna Snow wrote: > It's funny how no one ever mentions Plone LOL It's been around for nearly 10 > years now - even I'm not using it as much lately- but it's not well known > even though it's used by NASA, CIA, Akamai, Discover Magazine and bunches of > Universities. > > I've formed a group called ZPUG Valley that will focus on python frameworks. > We meet at the Hacker Dojo in Mountain View once a month and will be > covering Zope, Repoze.bfg, Pylons, Grok, TurboGears, Plone, Twisted, Django, > etc etc. Anything that is a python based web framework. Although I > personally have a preference for Plone because I've been working with it so > long but there are some awesome wsgi based python implementations that I'm > also highly interested in (repoze.bfg being one of them) > > Our next meeting is November 4, 2009 > > http://www.meetup.com/ZPUG-Valley > > It's a Django talk by one of the core Django guys > > We are just forming so regular meeting dates haven't been established. > > RSVP if you think you can make it :-) > > BTW, if you haven't already done it drop by the Hacker Dojo for a > visit/tour. Great, interesting group of people! I volunteer on Wednesday and > Friday all day and Charles Merriam is there beginning of the week usually. > It is busiest in the evening. Free wifi and we have coffee too! > > Donna 'SnowWrite' Snow > card.ly/snowwrite > > Principal, C Squared Enterprises > illuminating your path to Open Source > > Founder, GirlsLuvTech > facebook.com/girlsluvtech > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Jeremy Fishman > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Since moving here I've found a lot of great places for discussion of > > Django. However, there has been little mention of Zope, Pylons or > > TurboGears, Twisted/Nevow, CherryPy, etc. Do any of you work with these, > > know people who do, or ideally know a group (this one?) that holds meetups > > focused on any of these? (I would especially love Twisted news) > > > > Sorry if I left anyone's favorite project out, > > Jeremy > > > > > > -- > > Jeremy R Fishman > > jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com > > http://jfishman.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From roderick at sanfransystems.com Wed Oct 28 04:36:02 2009 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:36:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Salary Requirements Questions References: Message-ID: <43594547BC8840C5985182327DEA0C3F@orion> Re: Nathan Yergler's comment: well if the employer has such a good idea of what the position is worth (such that they might offer the candidate more than candidate's figure), and also knows the maximum they are willing to pay, and wants to avoid wasting everybody's time, why don't they just publish the figure (or range) in their job posting? After all, the job posting occurs first; the candidate responds to the posting. That way if their range is too low from my perspective I won't even bother applying. But that rarely happens, right? So I think that indicates that this isn't the reason for asking the figure. The reason is to gain a negotiating advantage. In your specific case, it's nice that they made you an offer above your asking price, but I suspect that's rare. After all, if companies routinely made offers in their range, even if the offer was much higher than my required salary, my strategy should be to ask for: zero! That maximizes my chance of getting an offer, by surely being lower than the range, and I can just extend that "trust" you are talking about that they will offer me an appropriate amount. - Rod L. in response to: =============== I was considering applying for a position with an east coast company that does all Python, and they explicitly state that they require "salary requirements" with resumes. I was chatting with the CTO at PyCon that year and expressed my reservations about that. He basically said, "look, it's in no one's interest for us to talk to people who require a salary outside our means; it's not a good use of time and it's not fiscally responsible for us to convince ourselves that they're worth it and stretch ourselves too thin. It's also not in our best interest to pay someone just what they require if we want to retain them. So hopefully people see it as an opportunity to start a mutually beneficial, trusting relationship." I think the thing that struck me was that I was assuming "the man" was out to get me, and here the man was saying "we're trusting you to do our business, we require some trust in return." From keith at dartworks.biz Wed Oct 28 05:44:27 2009 From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:44:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Frameworks In-Reply-To: <1f7713e30910270928n3f190157r26d18b07f35fdf47@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f7713e30910270928n3f190157r26d18b07f35fdf47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091027214427.45505096@dartworks.biz> === On Tue, 10/27, Jeremy Fishman wrote: === > Sorry if I left anyone's favorite project out, === Hey, I'll take this opportunity to plug one I'm writing. The pycopia.WWW.framework has the following differentiating features: Lightweight Clean URL scheme URL mappings in one place. Leverage "web 2.0"- AJAX/JSON Reversible URLs (map handler to URL) Privilege separation No threads, SMP scalable No templates Highly modular Quick and easy to write and deploy Database agnostic The reason I am doing this is the following. I wanted a framework that could be used to put a "web interface" on an small-scale PC or PC based network appliance-type device. Most of those other frameworks tend toward being database interfaces, run in one process with threads, and can't interface to the system very well. The Pycopia web framework is designed as a collection of smaller servers, each one may run with different user credentials and use the FCGI protocol to communicate to the front-end, which is a single lighttpd server. These are mapped to a single, clean URL tree and is transparent to the client. This is done to separate privileges to only those parts of the web application that need it. For example, to edit a database a back-end FCGI server runs as a pseudo-user that has privileges to access the database, and only that. Another back-end might need to control a particular device node and therefore needs another user and/or group credentials. Another part may need to run a program as the logged in user. Since the web server itself does not run as that user some part needs to run as root and than perform the equivalent of the login program to spawn a subprocess with the user account. Since the URL path tree is farmed out to different handler processes the whole system can benefit more from SMP systems. The URL scheme uses regular expressions to map a URL to a handler. The handler may take parameters. This works a lot like Django. However, you can also do the reverse by calling the get_url() method with the target object (plus optional parameters) and will return the URL that will reach it exactly that way. Therefore you don't have to hard-code paths in the code which makes re-arranging your tree and handlers easier. I don't like templates. I prefer to work purely with Python code. Therefore there is an XHTML markup generator system that looks a lot like some GUI frameworks (e.g. Tk), but constructs XHTML documents instead. However, the use of server-side generated XHTML markup is discouraged. Instead, only the first App page is generated. Most of the rest of the App is implemented in Javascript and uses the Mochikit framework there. The Pycopia framework provides a data interface using JSON serialization and a Proxy object that transparently calls server-side Python handlers from Javascript functions. The handlers on the server side take basic Python objects as parameters and return Python objects. These appear as equivalent objects in Javascript. In other words, you write Javascript that calls a method on a proxy object with ends up going to the server, handled there and returns a value that the Javascript then gets as a Javascript object back. Any DOM manipulation is done by the Javascript. There is no mandated Database or ORM. I use Sqlalchemy for that when I need to access a database. There is a generic forms builder for that. There is also a database JSON API handled by an instance of the above mentioned proxy object. The framework also inherently handles host-based virtual servers. You can serve many host/domains from the single server, and each domain may run a separate set of back-end handlers. There are several different handler patterns that may be used. Supports any callable object. Bare functions, or a subclass of a special handler class can be used. The handler subclass just defines get() and post() methods to handle forms. I eat my own dogfood. There's not much content, by my websites use this framework. All of www.pycopia.org, www.pycopia.net, www.dartworks.biz, and www.kdart.com (and more) are run from one instance of this framework. Thanks for listening. Give a whirl if you're interested. -- Keith Dart -- -- -------------------- Keith Dart ======================= From jason at mischievous.org Wed Oct 28 06:58:18 2009 From: jason at mischievous.org (Jason Culverhouse) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:58:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job - Salary Questions In-Reply-To: <53039e7b0910271928n3102742dy16c0610d9fdc39ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <53039e7b0910271928n3102742dy16c0610d9fdc39ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E4CB38C-5812-48B8-8BAC-24699968A1EA@mischievous.org> Adding my thoughts and 15 years of being on both sides of the table. This is a generalization to benefit the people who ask questions like this on the list. You are getting as a professional, and you should be treated as one. You should feel confident that you are being compensated fairly, everything being equal, vast salary differences are discrimination. Good companies should be methodical in setting compensation. Bigger companies are going to use a real compensation survey. Understand that compensation is more than "salary". On Oct 27, 2009, at 7:28 PM, Nathan Yergler wrote: > God forbid that I prolong this thread, but I'd like to offer a data > point which counters this. I don't claim that it's representative, > only factual. > > I was considering applying for a position with an east coast company > that does all Python, and they explicitly state that they require > "salary requirements" with resumes. > Here is a fictionalized "I" and "you" as both candidate and hiring manager "I" would never put this kind of requirement on a "position" (if you see one it is usually for some "legal" reason). The main reason being that the interview process is part of placing "you" in an organization, the last thing "I" am thinking about is can I afford "you" in dollar terms. As a person interviewing, I would hesitate to declare any salary requirement before an interview. I wouldn't want money to look like a motivator. When you go on an interview you need to decide if you want to work at the company and this is going to change your perception of what you should be paid. Back to manager... I usually give the candidate two choices: 1) tell me what you make 2) tell me what you want to make Some people are uncomfortable with one of these choices so I always feel it is best to give them an option. If you are uncomfortable with both you probably didn't make to this step. If I have interviewed you and looked over your resume my mental number should be pretty close to what you state. What happens next really depends on the size of the organization. In all cases understand that they never want the chart of salary/title/years of experience to look like a scatter chart. This really sets the bounds of what can be offered by a company. This "magic box" is going to differ based on the stage, size, industry, region, benefits package, etc. In a small organization, I could put together an offer in 10 minutes. At a big company, I would go to "the person who understands the magic box" and get a range that can be offered. This range is going to cover salary, title, and stock. Once I have this range I have to close you within the range otherwise I have to climb a mountain to get it changed. The moral here is that your money, motivation, and your interview skills are going to put you in that sweet spot of "hire". > I applied, stated my requirements (with some justification), and > received an offer at the top end of the range I specified. I wound up > turning it down for reasons unrelated to salary, but the experience > does make me approach that question differently these days. > FWTW - If you get what you asked for, you probably didn't ask for enough. > FWIW, > > Nathan Jason From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Oct 28 13:53:33 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 05:53:33 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job - Salary Questions In-Reply-To: <6E4CB38C-5812-48B8-8BAC-24699968A1EA@mischievous.org> References: <53039e7b0910271928n3102742dy16c0610d9fdc39ea@mail.gmail.com> <6E4CB38C-5812-48B8-8BAC-24699968A1EA@mischievous.org> Message-ID: <20091028125332.GA27708@panix.com> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009, Jason Culverhouse wrote: > > FWTW - If you get what you asked for, you probably didn't ask for > enough. So far, my history has been that I probably didn't ask for "enough", partly because I've taken a fair number of jobs where there was at least one obvious barrier to my doing well in the position (for example, my first job at Borland they were hesitant to hire me for a phone tech support position because of my hearing impairment). I'm also not much for trying to maximize the money I'm getting so long as what I'm getting isn't too far out of line for my experience compared to other people. So I've never bargained; I've just taken whatever offer has been given. OTOH, I have also been mostly fortunate that most of my previous employers have been comfortable giving me large raises after I've demonstrated my worth. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f From dalke at dalkescientific.com Wed Oct 28 16:47:04 2009 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:47:04 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <347.1256660703@parc.com> References: <87883912535441F7841B27BFFA9335F3@orion> <1f7713e30910261828r671373d6q6e68c8a2a9a315a5@mail.gmail.com> <4AE660E1.9090800@ulmcnett.com> <347.1256660703@parc.com> Message-ID: <9A538B07-B37F-487E-9E19-F4E380008ACA@dalkescientific.com> On Oct 27, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Bill Janssen wrote: > Maybe they're taking success advice from Mark Zuckerberg: > ?Young people are just smarter,? he said with a straight face. ?Why > are > most chess masters under 30?? he asked. ?I don?t know,? he > answered. I wonder where he got that idea, and how chess is applicable to programming. I looked but couldn't find age data for US chess masters. What I did find was List of world champions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship Using the youngest age and leaving out the "Classical world Champions" category since that over-counts Kasparov and has political implications: under 30: 8+5+2+0 = 15 30 or over: 18+11+4+2 = 35 Most of the top people in chess, historically, have been over 30. Even if I omit the pre-1886 numbers, that's still 7 (under 30 y.o.) to 17. A-ha! I bet the source of that comes from belief comes from Howard [Intelligence 27 (1999) 235?250]. There's a rebuttal at http:// dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.intell.2004.07.002 but I don't have free access to it and I've reached the limit of my curiosity on this topic. (Summary at http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2008/06/ chess_and_the_f.html by Jason Malloy) Andrew dalke at dalkescientific.com From damonmc at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 21:10:00 2009 From: damonmc at gmail.com (Damon McCormick) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:10:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Java or Python? (was: PERL or PYTHON) In-Reply-To: <1621f9fa0910221752h37b3826eo28c3011175926c75@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a438da70910120140q1c160ae4le2febe908a25506e@mail.gmail.com> <06034741-E7DE-4B9E-9461-B2079A210AD9@glenjarvis.com> <8249c4ac0910140716k2fdddd45w3bb95f4bce6f025d@mail.gmail.com> <4AD5F729.7020705@noir.com> <3cce76f60910221719j772e5b1w3450526ff57f73ac@mail.gmail.com> <1621f9fa0910221752h37b3826eo28c3011175926c75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3cce76f60910281310w1d6f6614wd26e1b7f03e7d59@mail.gmail.com> That quote about them being .8-2x slower than CPython should be taken in context. The PyPy project created a series of prototype JITs, culminating in their 5th prototype, which--for benchmarks of trivial loops--gave performance "20-30x over CPython" (see the April 21 post "Roadmap for JIT"). Then the PyPy developers switched focus from prototype to production. This involved rewriting the JIT from scratch in a more stable, maintainable way--with an emphasis on Python 2.5 compatibility--using what they learned from the prototypes. The April 19 quote you sent was from a low point, performance-wise. It was during the beta of the newly rewritten 1.1 JIT, which did not yet include any JIT optimizations. It seems likely that the Django test you mentioned was run on a version not too different from this one. As the more recent blog posts indicate, they are making progress on GC/memory/runtime optimizations. >From June 23's JIT Progress post about optimizing frame overhead with virtualizables: """ a long-running loop typically runs 50% faster than CPython. That's "baseline" speed, moreover: we will get better speed-ups by applying optimizations on the generated code. """ >From July 17's PyPy Numeric Experiments post: """ CPython (pure Python) 11s PyPy with JIT (pure Python) 0.91s """ >From Sept 27th's First Results of the JITpost (using "richards", a medium sized benchmark that simulates the task dispatcher in the kernel of an operating system): """ - 8.18 seconds with CPython 2.5.2; - 2.61 seconds with pypy-c-jit (3x faster than CPython); - 1.04 seconds if you ignore the time spent making assembler (8x faster than CPython); - 1.59 seconds on Psyco, for reference (5x faster that CPython). """. I'm not working on the project and haven't even run a recent PyPy--I've just been following progress on their blog--so I have no idea how their posted results on small benchmarks match what you'd get on a real application like Django. It will be very interesting to find out. -Damon On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:52 PM, Benjamin Sergeant wrote: > Now that you mention it, did anyone ever tried Django running with PyPy ? > > ( > Instruction there http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/DjangoAndPyPy > """ > The Python interpreter is now between 0.8-2x (and in some corner case > 3-4x) slower than CPython > """ > ) > > On a related note, I'm curious to know if anyone ever profiled a > typical django web request, starting when the HTTP request arrive on > the server and until the response is sent back (including what's > happening inside the web server mod_python / mod_wsgi / nginx - > fastcgi ....). The Linux guys have nice charts saying what's happening > during booting, it would be cool to have something similar for web > apps. > > http://www.bootchart.org/images/bootchart.png > > Cheers, > - Benjamin > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Damon McCormick > wrote: > > Not to mention PyPy. > > -Damon > > > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Glen Jarvis > wrote: > >> > >>> (The only place where Java has Python beat is that it performs better. > >>> Thankfully, that's rarely an issue for me since I usually have to > >>> worry a lot more about scalability than performance.) > >> > >> And that may, theoretically, change with the Unladen Swallow project. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddurham at yahoo-inc.com Thu Oct 29 00:53:24 2009 From: ddurham at yahoo-inc.com (Doug Durham) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:53:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Two contract positions available at Yahoo! Search Message-ID: <333A37994F38E442B40B135C7AA3B6E704BEEDB2@SNV-EXVS09.ds.corp.yahoo.com> Hello, I'm Doug Durham; I manage a team of Python developers in Yahoo! Search. I currently have two contract positions that I'm looking to fill. One of the positions is entry level and the other is for a more senior developer. The entry level position is primarily focused on data collection and processing. It requires a high level of experience using Linux tools and databases. In this position the Python coding will be focused on writing scripts to facilitate the parsing of collection of large data sets. This position might be a good fit for someone looking to build their Python skills. The senior developer position is a more traditional development position. This person will be working with existing development team to enhance existing tools and to explore some new problems with regards to collecting data from AJAX responses. If you are a strong Python developer and have experience with HTML and HTTP this may be a good position for you. For both of these positions you'll be working with a tight team of developers who are passionate about Python and its use in application development. If you are interested please respond and I'll send you more a more detailed job description. Regards, Doug Durham (ddurham at yahoo-inc.com) Senior Manager Editorial Tools Yahoo! Search -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From resmith at runbox.com Thu Oct 29 08:00:59 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:00:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Age discrimination is a difficult subject. People work till they are in their 50's and 60's, and even 70's. And companies should treat them or consider them as candidates equally that entire time as they do a much younger person according to the law. But does their brain stay at the same level the entire time? This study says that it peaks at 22 and starts to dwindle at age 27: http://www.thirdage.com/brain-fitness/when-does-your-brain-function-peak Virtually everyone would agree that an 80 year old person would underperform a 22 year old college graduate in a programming assignment. But at what point did the person 80 start to underperform the 22 year old? Was it at 70? 60? 50? 40? 30? If the answer isn't 70, then there is a problem. Rob From resmith at runbox.com Thu Oct 29 08:21:44 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:21:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I was considering applying for a position with an east coast company > that does all Python, and they explicitly state that they require > "salary requirements" with resumes. I was chatting with the CTO at > PyCon that year and expressed my reservations about that. He > basically said, "look, it's in no one's interest for us to talk to > people who require a salary outside our means; it's not a good use of > time and it's not fiscally responsible for us to convince ourselves > that they're worth it and stretch ourselves too thin. It's also not > in our best interest to pay someone just what they require if we want > to retain them. So hopefully people see it as an opportunity to start > a mutually beneficial, trusting relationship." I think the thing that > struck me was that I was assuming "the man" was out to get me, and > here the man was saying "we're trusting you to do our business, we > require some trust in return." > I applied, stated my requirements (with some justification), and > received an offer at the top end of the range I specified. I wound up > turning it down for reasons unrelated to salary, but the experience > does make me approach that question differently these days. He can solve the problem of "not wasting people's time" by stating what the job pays in the job ad. Applicants who require a higher salary need not apply. He must have other reasons for wanting the salary information. I don't understand why him hiding salary information and the applicant providing it is called a "mutually trusting relationship". Personally I think the whole point of companies not putting salary information in ads is to give them the upper hand in wage negotiation. You have no idea what they will pay but they no exactly what you will work for. Some companies may ask for salary information later in the game to use in salary negotiation, but if they ask for it early like this gentlemen, then I assume that the reason is to use that information to try and judge how good a person is. Salary doesn't have to match talent, but it is an extra piece of data to consider. Rob From damonmc at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 11:31:16 2009 From: damonmc at gmail.com (Damon McCormick) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 03:31:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3cce76f60910290331h62ba16d7oe3d7ed1d381fd1ef@mail.gmail.com> >From the same article/study: "abilities based on accumulated knowledge, such as performance on tests of vocabulary or general information, increased until age 60". Of course, this is just one study. And correlation does not imply causation. Perhaps most people use their learning and problem solving skills heavily while in school and then these skills taper off from disuse. This effect would not apply to someone in a profession where their day-to-day work involved learning and problem solving. -Damon On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:00 AM, wrote: > Age discrimination is a difficult subject. People work till they are in > their 50's and 60's, and even 70's. And companies should treat them or > consider them as candidates equally that entire time as they do a much > younger person according to the law. But does their brain stay at the same > level the entire time? This study says that it peaks at 22 and starts to > dwindle at age 27: > > http://www.thirdage.com/brain-fitness/when-does-your-brain-function-peak > > Virtually everyone would agree that an 80 year old person would > underperform a 22 year old college graduate in a programming assignment. > But at what point did the person 80 start to underperform the 22 year old? > Was it at 70? 60? 50? 40? 30? If the answer isn't 70, then there is a > problem. > > Rob > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Oct 29 14:52:46 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 06:52:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091029135246.GB29942@panix.com> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009, resmith at runbox.com wrote: > > Virtually everyone would agree that an 80 year old person would > underperform a 22 year old college graduate in a programming > assignment. Har har. Strongly disagree -- depending on who the 22-year old and the 80-year old are. Also depending on exactly what the programming assignment is; how many 22-year olds could handle COBOL or FORTRAN? -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f From rich at noir.com Thu Oct 29 16:04:00 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:04:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE9AEE0.4040204@noir.com> resmith at runbox.com wrote: > Virtually everyone would agree that an 80 year old person would underperform a 22 year old college graduate in a programming assignment. > I wouldn't agree. I think training, education, and recent experience all play a more significant role than simple age. I've certainly known 60yo dinosaurs who were still programming big iron in assembler, did it well, but weren't really interested in moving forward with technology. But I've also known 60yo folks who had plenty of experience with leading edge development and were still producing leading edge innovations. I'd also argue that very little programming happens in a vacuum and that 80 year olds, as a general rule, have more life experience and therefor typically more basic life skills. --rih From bender at onsrc.com Thu Oct 29 16:40:47 2009 From: bender at onsrc.com (RYAN DELUCCHI) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:40:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <4AE9AEE0.4040204@noir.com> References: <4AE9AEE0.4040204@noir.com> Message-ID: <4AA472D6-29D2-45B5-B89B-AA5DDA2C6DF7@onsrc.com> And I know a guy who is in his 50's and is one of the most brilliant programmers I have met. Drawing on past experience is a *big* part of it know doubt. Seeing patterns (and anti-patterns) in the barrage of programming problems that folks like us face ... but over a span of many decades ... gives one a power that can be tough to comprehend. I'm approaching 30 now and I can tell you from personal experience that the "everything goes downhill from 22" rule of thumb is complete B.S. Just to point out an extreme counter example: what about Donald Knuth? He is pretty far up there in his years and I don't know a single person (including folks that are my age or even younger) who can read one of his books cover-to-cover and truly "get it". Ryan On Oct 29, 2009, at 8:04 AM, K. Richard Pixley wrote: > resmith at runbox.com wrote: >> Virtually everyone would agree that an 80 year old person would >> underperform a 22 year old college graduate in a programming >> assignment. >> > I wouldn't agree. > > I think training, education, and recent experience all play a more > significant role than simple age. I've certainly known 60yo > dinosaurs who were still programming big iron in assembler, did it > well, but weren't really interested in moving forward with > technology. But I've also known 60yo folks who had plenty of > experience with leading edge development and were still producing > leading edge innovations. > > I'd also argue that very little programming happens in a vacuum and > that 80 year olds, as a general rule, have more life experience and > therefor typically more basic life skills. > > --rih > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From nick at stinemates.org Thu Oct 29 16:47:08 2009 From: nick at stinemates.org (Nick Stinemates) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:47:08 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] Two contract positions available at Yahoo! Search In-Reply-To: <333A37994F38E442B40B135C7AA3B6E704BEEDB2@SNV-EXVS09.ds.corp.yahoo.com> References: <333A37994F38E442B40B135C7AA3B6E704BEEDB2@SNV-EXVS09.ds.corp.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091029154708.GA3543@stinemates.org> Sounds like a lot of fun. Good luck in your search On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 04:53:24PM -0700, Doug Durham wrote: > Hello, > > > > I'm Doug Durham; I manage a team of Python developers in Yahoo! Search. > I currently have two contract positions that I'm looking to fill. One > of the positions is entry level and the other is for a more senior > developer. > > > > The entry level position is primarily focused on data collection and > processing. It requires a high level of experience using Linux tools > and databases. In this position the Python coding will be focused on > writing scripts to facilitate the parsing of collection of large data > sets. This position might be a good fit for someone looking to build > their Python skills. > > > > The senior developer position is a more traditional development > position. This person will be working with existing development team to > enhance existing tools and to explore some new problems with regards to > collecting data from AJAX responses. If you are a strong Python > developer and have experience with HTML and HTTP this may be a good > position for you. > > > > For both of these positions you'll be working with a tight team of > developers who are passionate about Python and its use in application > development. > > > > If you are interested please respond and I'll send you more a more > detailed job description. > > > > Regards, > > > > Doug Durham (ddurham at yahoo-inc.com) > > Senior Manager > > Editorial Tools > > Yahoo! Search > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From nick at stinemates.org Thu Oct 29 16:48:43 2009 From: nick at stinemates.org (Nick Stinemates) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:48:43 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Frameworks In-Reply-To: <20091027214427.45505096@dartworks.biz> References: <1f7713e30910270928n3f190157r26d18b07f35fdf47@mail.gmail.com> <20091027214427.45505096@dartworks.biz> Message-ID: <20091029154843.GB3543@stinemates.org> Sounds cool. Where can I get it (and some examples?) I haven't got out of the boilerplate stages with django yet to get in to the fun stuff. I'd love to give this a try. Nick Stinemates On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 09:44:27PM -0700, Keith Dart wrote: > === On Tue, 10/27, Jeremy Fishman wrote: === > > Sorry if I left anyone's favorite project out, > === > > Hey, I'll take this opportunity to plug one I'm writing. > > The pycopia.WWW.framework has the following differentiating features: > > Lightweight > Clean URL scheme > URL mappings in one place. > Leverage "web 2.0"- AJAX/JSON > Reversible URLs (map handler to URL) > Privilege separation > No threads, SMP scalable > No templates > Highly modular > Quick and easy to write and deploy > Database agnostic > > The reason I am doing this is the following. I wanted a framework that > could be used to put a "web interface" on an small-scale PC or PC based > network appliance-type device. Most of those other frameworks tend > toward being database interfaces, run in one process with threads, and > can't interface to the system very well. > > The Pycopia web framework is designed as a collection of smaller > servers, each one may run with different user credentials and use the > FCGI protocol to communicate to the front-end, which is a single > lighttpd server. These are mapped to a single, clean URL tree and is > transparent to the client. This is done to separate privileges to only > those parts of the web application that need it. For example, to edit a > database a back-end FCGI server runs as a pseudo-user that has > privileges to access the database, and only that. Another back-end > might need to control a particular device node and therefore needs > another user and/or group credentials. Another part may need to run a > program as the logged in user. Since the web server itself does not run > as that user some part needs to run as root and than perform the > equivalent of the login program to spawn a subprocess with the user > account. > > Since the URL path tree is farmed out to different handler processes > the whole system can benefit more from SMP systems. > > The URL scheme uses regular expressions to map a URL to a handler. > The handler may take parameters. This works a lot like Django. However, > you can also do the reverse by calling the get_url() method with the > target object (plus optional parameters) and will return the URL that > will reach it exactly that way. Therefore you don't have to hard-code > paths in the code which makes re-arranging your tree and handlers > easier. > > I don't like templates. I prefer to work purely with Python code. > Therefore there is an XHTML markup generator system that looks a lot > like some GUI frameworks (e.g. Tk), but constructs XHTML documents > instead. > > However, the use of server-side generated XHTML markup is discouraged. > Instead, only the first App page is generated. Most of the rest of the > App is implemented in Javascript and uses the Mochikit framework there. > The Pycopia framework provides a data interface using JSON > serialization and a Proxy object that transparently calls server-side > Python handlers from Javascript functions. The handlers on the server > side take basic Python objects as parameters and return Python objects. > These appear as equivalent objects in Javascript. In other words, you > write Javascript that calls a method on a proxy object with ends up > going to the server, handled there and returns a value that the > Javascript then gets as a Javascript object back. Any DOM manipulation > is done by the Javascript. > > There is no mandated Database or ORM. I use Sqlalchemy for that when I > need to access a database. There is a generic forms builder for that. > There is also a database JSON API handled by an instance of the above > mentioned proxy object. > > The framework also inherently handles host-based virtual servers. You > can serve many host/domains from the single server, and each domain may > run a separate set of back-end handlers. > > There are several different handler patterns that may be used. Supports > any callable object. Bare functions, or a subclass of a special handler > class can be used. The handler subclass just defines get() and post() > methods to handle forms. > > I eat my own dogfood. There's not much content, by my websites use this > framework. All of www.pycopia.org, www.pycopia.net, www.dartworks.biz, > and www.kdart.com (and more) are run from one instance of this > framework. > > Thanks for listening. Give a whirl if you're interested. > > > -- Keith Dart > > -- > -- -------------------- > Keith Dart > > ======================= > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From p at ulmcnett.com Thu Oct 29 17:12:20 2009 From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:12:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE9BEE4.4030509@ulmcnett.com> resmith at runbox.com wrote: > Age discrimination is a difficult subject. People work till they are in their 50's and 60's, and even 70's. And companies should treat them or consider them as candidates equally that entire time as they do a much younger person according to the law. But does their brain stay at the same level the entire time? This study says that it peaks at 22 and starts to dwindle at age 27: > > http://www.thirdage.com/brain-fitness/when-does-your-brain-function-peak "Abilities based on accumulation of knowledge ... increased until age 60." Paul From trudelle at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 18:59:54 2009 From: trudelle at gmail.com (Peter Trudelle) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:59:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE9D81A.4020306@gmail.com> Age discrimination is a very difficult subject, but there is no basis in the study cited for any overall "brain level", let alone its declining with age. Some abilities appeared to decline while others increased; in fact, "abilities based on accumulated knowledge...increased until age 60". This last detail is misleading, as the study did not include anyone over 60, so all they found was that it kept increasing. Programming ability is affected by accumulated knowledge, and it is also much more complex than solving puzzles, recalling words and story details and spotting patterns in letters and symbols, so I'm not sure how applicable this study is to it. BTW, the last paragraph contains a logical fallacy; "virtually everyone agreeing" on something does not make it true, as implied. I find it odd that anyone would expect a recent graduate to outperform someone who may have spent their entire life honing skills the graduate has barely started to develop. FWIW, the only 80 year old programmer I ever worked with could code rings around the recent graduates. And why not? He had 50+ years of experience, we had none. Peter On 10/29/2009 12:00 AM, resmith at runbox.com wrote: > Age discrimination is a difficult subject. People work till they are in their 50's and 60's, and even 70's. And companies should treat them or consider them as candidates equally that entire time as they do a much younger person according to the law. But does their brain stay at the same level the entire time? This study says that it peaks at 22 and starts to dwindle at age 27: > > http://www.thirdage.com/brain-fitness/when-does-your-brain-function-peak > > Virtually everyone would agree that an 80 year old person would underperform a 22 year old college graduate in a programming assignment. But at what point did the person 80 start to underperform the 22 year old? Was it at 70? 60? 50? 40? 30? If the answer isn't 70, then there is a problem. > > Rob > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3864 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From bender at onsrc.com Thu Oct 29 19:23:44 2009 From: bender at onsrc.com (RYAN DELUCCHI) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:23:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <4AE9D81A.4020306@gmail.com> References: <4AE9D81A.4020306@gmail.com> Message-ID: A big +1. I have nothing more to add. On Oct 29, 2009, at 10:59 AM, Peter Trudelle wrote: > Age discrimination is a very difficult subject, but there is no > basis in the study cited for any overall "brain level", let alone > its declining with age. Some abilities appeared to decline while > others increased; in fact, "abilities based on accumulated > knowledge...increased until age 60". This last detail is > misleading, as the study did not include anyone over 60, so all they > found was that it kept increasing. Programming ability is affected > by accumulated knowledge, and it is also much more complex than > solving puzzles, recalling words and story details and spotting > patterns in letters and symbols, so I'm not sure how applicable this > study is to it. BTW, the last paragraph contains a logical fallacy; > "virtually everyone agreeing" on something does not make it true, as > implied. I find it odd that anyone would expect a recent graduate to > outperform someone who may have spent their entire life honing > skills the graduate has barely started to develop. FWIW, the only > 80 year old programmer I ever worked with could code rings around > the recent graduates. And why not? He had 50+ years of experience, > we had none. > > Peter > > On 10/29/2009 12:00 AM, resmith at runbox.com wrote: >> Age discrimination is a difficult subject. People work till they >> are in their 50's and 60's, and even 70's. And companies should >> treat them or consider them as candidates equally that entire time >> as they do a much younger person according to the law. But does >> their brain stay at the same level the entire time? This study says >> that it peaks at 22 and starts to dwindle at age 27: >> >> http://www.thirdage.com/brain-fitness/when-does-your-brain-function-peak >> >> Virtually everyone would agree that an 80 year old person would >> underperform a 22 year old college graduate in a programming >> assignment. But at what point did the person 80 start to >> underperform the 22 year old? Was it at 70? 60? 50? 40? 30? If >> the answer isn't 70, then there is a problem. >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From resmith at runbox.com Thu Oct 29 20:08:36 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:08:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <4AE9BEE4.4030509@ulmcnett.com> Message-ID: Some of you have quoted or half-quoted the only positive words in the article regarding age. But this is the full paragraph where those words occurred and I find it difficult to read it and not see it as ammunition for Zuckerberg: "The researchers found that the first marked decline was at age 27 in tests of brain speed, reasoning and visual puzzle-solving ability. However, memory stayed intact until age 37, while abilities based on accumulated knowledge, such as performance on tests of vocabulary or general information, increased until age 60." One thing I have lamented in the past regarding programming, is that it's very easy for some of your "accumulated knowledge" to become worthless or worse (as in you should leave it off your resume). Years ago there was an article in InfoWorld about a conference where they had a panel up on stage taking questions from a moderator. Q: "What is the best way for a company to train IBM Mainframe COBOL programmers to work on new PC-based C++ projects" A: "I wouldn't even bother to train them. I would lay them off and hire new college graduates to do the C++ work". Rob From alecf at flett.org Thu Oct 29 20:10:41 2009 From: alecf at flett.org (Alec Flett) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:10:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: <4AE9D81A.4020306@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you're really interested in this stuff, I'm going to add a plug for PositScience - http://www.positscience.com/ - they're a research based company founded by some leading neuroscientists who are experts in "brain plasticity" - only one measure of a brain's "age", but an interesting one at that. they actually sell software products targeted at folks 50+ designed to increase brain plasticity in a few targeted areas. Think of it as "Brain Age" (from the Nintendo DS) with actual science to back it up... (though I suspect that just continuing to develop software into your 50s, 60s, 70s, etc has a similar effect :)) Alec On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:23 AM, RYAN DELUCCHI wrote: > A big +1. I have nothing more to add. > > > On Oct 29, 2009, at 10:59 AM, Peter Trudelle wrote: > > Age discrimination is a very difficult subject, but there is no basis in >> the study cited for any overall "brain level", let alone its declining with >> age. Some abilities appeared to decline while others increased; in fact, >> "abilities based on accumulated knowledge...increased until age 60". This >> last detail is misleading, as the study did not include anyone over 60, so >> all they found was that it kept increasing. Programming ability is affected >> by accumulated knowledge, and it is also much more complex than solving >> puzzles, recalling words and story details and spotting patterns in letters >> and symbols, so I'm not sure how applicable this study is to it. BTW, the >> last paragraph contains a logical fallacy; "virtually everyone agreeing" on >> something does not make it true, as implied. I find it odd that anyone would >> expect a recent graduate to outperform someone who may have spent their >> entire life honing skills the graduate has barely started to develop. FWIW, >> the only 80 year old programmer I ever worked with could code rings around >> the recent graduates. And why not? He had 50+ years of experience, we had >> none. >> >> Peter >> >> On 10/29/2009 12:00 AM, resmith at runbox.com wrote: >> >>> Age discrimination is a difficult subject. People work till they are in >>> their 50's and 60's, and even 70's. And companies should treat them or >>> consider them as candidates equally that entire time as they do a much >>> younger person according to the law. But does their brain stay at the same >>> level the entire time? This study says that it peaks at 22 and starts to >>> dwindle at age 27: >>> >>> http://www.thirdage.com/brain-fitness/when-does-your-brain-function-peak >>> >>> Virtually everyone would agree that an 80 year old person would >>> underperform a 22 year old college graduate in a programming assignment. >>> But at what point did the person 80 start to underperform the 22 year old? >>> Was it at 70? 60? 50? 40? 30? If the answer isn't 70, then there is a >>> problem. >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Baypiggies mailing list >>> Baypiggies at python.org >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From resmith at runbox.com Thu Oct 29 22:15:11 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:15:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 Message-ID: > Programming ability is affected by accumulated knowledge, and it is also > much more complex than solving puzzles, recalling words and story > details and spotting patterns in letters and symbols, so I'm not sure > how applicable this study is to it. I want to make clear that I am "not young" :) , and have as much desire for there to be an increase or no decline in programming ability as anyone. My gut feeling in my personal case is that my quality has not declined, my degree of difficulty may have increased through knowledge, but my quantity has decreased. If there is no decline with age then I don't see a need for any study as real-world experience will cause hiring managers, through their own personal "studies", to be unconcerned about age. If ability increases due to accumulated knowledge and experience then age discrimination would likely be the reverse of the way it takes place in other professions and the people complaining about it would be 20 somethings. What about this. A company has an opening for a "junior programmer" or "Programmer Level 1" or however they put their lowest level/entry level position. Isn't it the normal practice that they only consider recent college graduates for this? Don't they toss the resume of someone with 20 years of unrelated programming experience who is trying to get into a new area (let's assume they applicant made it clear that they would work for less wages than they had been making) ? > BTW, the last paragraph contains a > logical fallacy; "virtually everyone agreeing" on something does not > make it true, as implied. I find it odd that anyone would expect a > recent graduate to outperform someone who may have spent their entire > life honing skills the graduate has barely started to develop. FWIW, > the only 80 year old programmer I ever worked with could code rings > around the recent graduates. And why not? He had 50+ years of > experience, we had none. If my statements were the logical fallacy of "appeal to popularity", your last statements are the logical fallacy known as "anecdotal evidence." In both ways that the term applies. Would you guys have argued against 90? :) Rob From aahz at pythoncraft.com Thu Oct 29 22:25:06 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:25:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091029212506.GA5279@panix.com> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009, resmith at runbox.com wrote: > > If there is no decline with age then I don't see a need for any study > as real-world experience will cause hiring managers, through their > own personal "studies", to be unconcerned about age. If ability > increases due to accumulated knowledge and experience then age > discrimination would likely be the reverse of the way it takes place > in other professions and the people complaining about it would be 20 > somethings. You are apparently unaware of the numerous cases where people's prejudices bias hiring decision. Are you familiar with racism and sexism, just for starters? Are you aware that there are laws prohibiting discrimination against people over 40 precisely because of this? BTW, there is a new push to increase diversity in the Python community; take a look at http://wiki.python.org/moin/DiversityInPython > Would you guys have argued against 90? :) Yes. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f From resmith at runbox.com Fri Oct 30 01:04:55 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:04:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 Message-ID: >> >> If there is no decline with age then I don't see a need for any study >> as real-world experience will cause hiring managers, through their >> own personal "studies", to be unconcerned about age. If ability >> increases due to accumulated knowledge and experience then age >> discrimination would likely be the reverse of the way it takes place >> in other professions and the people complaining about it would be 20 >> somethings. >You are apparently unaware of the numerous cases where people's >prejudices bias hiring decision. Are you familiar with racism and >sexism, just for starters? Are you aware that there are laws prohibiting >discrimination against people over 40 precisely because of this? My bad, I got into "argument mode" and was being ironic, which wasn't the right way to put it. My point was that many hiring managers (not just Zuckerman) do seem to have an age bias which may have come from their personal observation. You are correct in stating that this could be due to invalid personal prejudice. From ken.barclay at att.net Fri Oct 30 02:15:54 2009 From: ken.barclay at att.net (ken barclay) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Frameworks In-Reply-To: <1f7713e30910270928n3f190157r26d18b07f35fdf47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <302103.2824.qm@web180705.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Jeremy, I've been to all but a couple of the PyWebSF meetings in San Francisco and they've been uniformly outstanding. I missed the last one but it had Ben Bangert talking about Pylons. JJ gave a great talk there too. http://www.pywebsf.org/ They meet in the San Francisco Public Library. Cheers Ken Barclay --- On Tue, 10/27/09, Jeremy Fishman wrote: From: Jeremy Fishman Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Frameworks To: baypiggies at python.org Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2009, 4:28 PM Hi all, Since moving here I've found a lot of great places for discussion of Django..? However, there has been little mention of Zope, Pylons or TurboGears, Twisted/Nevow, CherryPy, etc.? Do any of you work with these, know people who do, or ideally know a group (this one?) that holds meetups focused on any of these?? (I would especially love Twisted news) Sorry if I left anyone's favorite project out, Jeremy -- Jeremy R Fishman jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com http://jfishman.org -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Baypiggies mailing list Baypiggies at python.org To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Oct 30 02:46:48 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:46:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > What about this. A company has an opening for a "junior programmer" or > "Programmer Level 1" or however they put their lowest level/entry level > position. Isn't it the normal practice that they only consider recent > college graduates for this? Don't they toss the resume of someone with 20 > years of unrelated programming experience who is trying to get into a new > area (let's assume they applicant made it clear that they would work for > less wages than they had been making) ? > If that person has the relevant experience for the new position, then, my experience is that those resumes are not tossed. However, it's a new entry/level position. The new hire would have to be willing to take a Junior level salary since they are Junior. I personally would be interested in your skills as a Python programmer. Although it doesn't hurt to know COBOL and Fortran, those languages do not automatically substitute for programming in Python every day. Could you know os.path.abspath() without looking it up? Would you know it's there and look it up quickly? Or, would you try to create your own logic with string manipulation? Most inexperienced Python programmers would do the latter. Then, there's less portability across platforms, etc. That was just one random example. Insert *many* similar examples here (os.path.split(), os.path.join(), tarfile, subprocess, etc. etc.) I have switched fields and had great luck in that process, and age did not stop me. I admit that I did not get some jobs that I wanted. That wasn't because of my age. Frankly, I just hadn't built up the experience yet. And, that was pretty obvious on white board tests. So, my experience is that those resumes are not tossed automatically. However, they must be related to the job in question. I found that the quality of the programmer does not decline with age, even well past retirement age -- especially if that person is proactive and stays current in their field. Cheers, Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DennisR at dair.com Fri Oct 30 02:47:54 2009 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:47:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 AM 10/29/2009, resmith at runbox.com wrote: > But at what point did the person [one age] start to underperform > the another age? As someone who has over 40 years of computer industry experience, I have been through this several times. One point of diminished technical performance coincides with promotion into management. Your scope widens while your specialty focus is lost. I have found it necessary to re-invent myself several times. The half-life of technical knowledge was thought to be 5 years some 40 years ago. I don't think it is even that long now. Consider the topics of the last year's Baypiggies. Are half the foundations of those talks over 5 years old ... or more like 18 months? How old are the tools, files, and technologies you deal with. Are half over 5 years old? ... or less? Technical work requires an ability to re-invent oneself. For a new programmer, this is easier than one who has acquired habits since there is less to "un-invent". Further, the university environment may provide access to recent tools and technologies, providing a familiarity advantage. Old technical workers with, say 20 years experience, can have 4 distinct careers of 5 years duration each or the same 5 year career repeated 4 times. The one who has distinct careers would be a good bet to tackle a fifth new career. The one who has repeated the same experience 4 times over, almost by definition is working in an area that is unchanging. It is easy to pick up habits over time; some of them are beneficial but not necessarily all. I can testify that age discrimination occurs at both ends of the age scale ... and pretty much everywhere in between. People are constantly judging you against their internalized expectations. Companies which advertise for "bright, young workers" or other ageist designations seem to me to be creating a social environment, not a business. "Young" is not an output measure; it may be trying to meet other objectives ("cheap" heads my list). My 2 cents, albeit ravaged by inflation over the years. Dennis Reinhardt From meenalpant at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 06:07:24 2009 From: meenalpant at gmail.com (Meenal Pant) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:07:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] KUDOS and Thank you! Re: talks last night In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to the efforts of Glen and other members I enjoyed watching Simeon's presentation and took away a lot of good tips. Thanks Simeon for these links. I am new to the *real world web development* so to speak. I am wondering how many organizations actually use frameworks such as Django, Ruby on rails etc ? Also what is the technical difference between a backend developer, frontend developer and a web designer? Isn't a frontend developer and designer the same thing ? What level of expertise does one need to be hired as a web developer, some of each ? I read on James Bennett's blog that "you are not a web developer if you do not know Javascript", so I am trying to understand what is an absolute must to make the cut. BTW If anyone knows of any django gigs or can point to the right people , I'd really appreciate that. Meenal From resmith at runbox.com Fri Oct 30 06:54:42 2009 From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:54:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > So, my experience is that those resumes are not tossed automatically. > However, they must be related to the job in question. I found that the > quality of the programmer does not decline with age, even well past > retirement age -- especially if that person is proactive and stays current > in their field. > Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants for an ENTRY LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the applicants have any experience in Python Django. Two are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer Science degrees and two have twenty years experience as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it with Web applications, and they have made it clear on their cover letter that they will take a pay cut if necessary to meet the salary range of the job. How many hiring managers will consider all four applicants equally? Rob From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Oct 30 10:52:46 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:52:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55A31060-DE3D-48B6-BBB8-C3EC4A57F052@glenjarvis.com> >> So, my experience is that those resumes are not tossed automatically. >> However, they must be related to the job in question. I found that >> the >> quality of the programmer does not decline with age, even well past >> retirement age -- especially if that person is proactive and stays >> current >> in their field. >> > > Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants for an ENTRY > LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the applicants have any > experience in Python Django. Two are just graduating from TopNotchU > with Computer Science degrees and two have twenty years experience > as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it with Web > applications, and they have made it clear on their cover letter that > they will take a pay cut if necessary to meet the salary range of > the job. > > How many hiring managers will consider all four applicants equally? > > Rob My personal experience is that they are all considered equally. If it were me, I would consider them all equally. I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find cases where some people will not treat those individuals equally. That's not generally my experience, however. Warmest Regards, Glen From dalke at dalkescientific.com Fri Oct 30 16:19:47 2009 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:19:47 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <20091030015327.105FC3C4A0@mailwash16.pair.com> References: <20091030015327.105FC3C4A0@mailwash16.pair.com> Message-ID: <210DC766-EE36-4BA4-942C-F7FAFA8C6C29@dalkescientific.com> On Oct 30, 2009, at 2:47 AM, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > Consider the topics of the last year's Baypiggies. Are half the > foundations of those talks over 5 years old ... or more like 18 > months? How old are the tools, files, and technologies you deal > with. Are half over 5 years old? ... or less? My talk next month will include mention of some file formats I use frequently which were started in the 70s and 80s, and toolkits and several applications which are 10-20 years old. I've seen code in some of the tools I've used with comments dated from the 60s. Yes, it was in FORTRAN. One of the foundations I use is called "Python." It's been around since '91. Another foundation is HTTP which got to version 1.1 over 10 years ago, and the technologies like WSGI and Django and so on are founded on CGI from about 1993. Indeed, the general style of "database backed web sites" like RubyOnRails, TurboGears, Django, etc. I would say became the de facto solution shortly after Greenspun's book on that topic in '97. Fancy tail fins on a brand new '59 Cadillac didn't mean throwing out a whole generation of mechanics who started with model As. Andrew dalke at dalkescientific.com From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Oct 30 16:25:38 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:25:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <210DC766-EE36-4BA4-942C-F7FAFA8C6C29@dalkescientific.com> References: <20091030015327.105FC3C4A0@mailwash16.pair.com> <210DC766-EE36-4BA4-942C-F7FAFA8C6C29@dalkescientific.com> Message-ID: <20091030152538.GB13143@panix.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009, Andrew Dalke wrote: > > Fancy tail fins on a brand new '59 Cadillac didn't mean throwing out a > whole generation of mechanics who started with model As. May I add this to my .sig database? I'd phrase it this way: [on old computer technologies and programmers] "Fancy tail fins on a brand new '59 Cadillac didn't mean throwing out a whole generation of mechanics who started with model As." If yes, how would you like to be attributed? -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f From dalke at dalkescientific.com Fri Oct 30 16:35:16 2009 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:35:16 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] cancel Nov 2009 meeting? In-Reply-To: <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> References: <78b3a9580907040027l3dd61183g500f151cf1c13b74@mail.gmail.com> <1246725384.6517.65.camel@jim-laptop> <20090704182217.GA18785@panix.com> <1246735175.6517.78.camel@jim-laptop> <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> Message-ID: <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> On Jul 5, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Aahz wrote: > Maybe; it seems clearly to mean "Nov 2009", which I agree should have > been expanded. (I have now done so.) A bit confused here. I thought I was going to present for Nov 2009 and that space was arranged? > On Oct 12, 2009, at 9:21 PM, jim wrote: > >> JS: we're saying "yes"; please confirm you'll give >> a talk at the VCafe in Mountain View on November 19. Andrew dalke at dalkescientific.com From rich at noir.com Fri Oct 30 17:36:16 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:36:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <20091030015355.0439B1940F6@noir.com> References: <20091030015355.0439B1940F6@noir.com> Message-ID: <4AEB1600.6030409@noir.com> Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > The half-life of technical knowledge was thought to be 5 years some 40 > years ago. I don't think it is even that long now. Consider the > topics of the last year's Baypiggies. Are half the foundations of > those talks over 5 years old ... or more like 18 months? How old are > the tools, files, and technologies you deal with. Are half over 5 > years old? ... or less? Please note that python, our primary focus here, is 18 years old. While it is true that technology moves on, that statement about half life from 40 years ago applied to a tiny body of existing computer technology. While our technology improves and explodes, we also now reuse a significantly higher portion than we did 40 years ago. Gone are the days when every computer manufacturer designed their own CPU, memory architecture, hardware, buses, interfaces, peripherals, and operating systems. Gone are the days when every vendor had their own pet programming language in which their proprietary operating system was written. Instead, the computer world has been reduced to essentially two operating system architectures, (each with a handful of major variations), a small number of CPU architectures, (x86, amd64, arm, powerpc, ...), and essentially one general purpose computer architecture (with some major variations). Partly /because/ we move so fast, and partly because we have a much larger existing body of technology now, it is no longer possible to design everything from scratch while remaining competitive. Instead, we reuse large portions of technology from previous projects. I spoke with a mobile device company yesterday who is about to release their first product, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnes_%26_Noble_nook). It has been 6 months in the making. That's all. Just 6 months from design to release of an entirely new product line. The device includes arm cpu, android OS, 3G (data only) uplink, custom hardware and industrial design, (from available parts), and custom software apps, (leveraging existing technologies). This was unprecedented 40 years ago but becoming common today. I'm currently working on a well known mobile device. Our primary technologies are: * C, (~40 years old) * Make (~40 yo) * gcc (30 yo) * GNU (~30yo)/Linux (18 yo) o which is directly descended from Unix(tm) (~40 yo) * debugging using gdb (30 yo) * cross/embedded techniques (>40 yo) * continuous build and parallelism techniques (>30 yo) * arm architecture (26 yo) * subversion (10 yo) * openembedded (>5 yo) o the openembedded build tool is bitbake, which is written in python. o bitbake "recipie"s are written in bitbake, which uses python escapes much as C code sometimes uses assembler escapes. * custom device drivers (<2 yo) Although largely outside my domain and restricted to perhaps half of the engineers on the project, we also work with: * javascript (14 yo) * eclipse (>8 yo?) * prototype (5 yo) * proprietary frameworks (<2 yo) Of course most of these technologies are under active development or at least active maintenance. So it's not entirely accurate to say that we're using 40yo technology. My point here is that I'm working on a very modern project and yes, a significant portion of the technology involved extends back 40 years or more. --rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emile at fenx.com Fri Oct 30 17:06:37 2009 From: emile at fenx.com (Emile van Sebille) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:06:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <200910300329.n9U3T6228474@SalesInq.com> References: <200910300329.n9U3T6228474@SalesInq.com> Message-ID: <4AEB0F0D.3000900@fenx.com> On 10/29/2009 6:47 PM Dennis Reinhardt said... > At 12:00 AM 10/29/2009, resmith at runbox.com wrote: >> But at what point did the person [one age] start to underperform the >> another age? > > As someone who has over 40 years of computer industry experience, I > have been through this several times. One point of diminished > technical performance coincides with promotion into management. Your > scope widens while your specialty focus is lost. I have found it > necessary to re-invent myself several times. > > The half-life of technical knowledge was thought to be 5 years some 40 > years ago. I don't think it is even that long now. Consider the > topics of the last year's Baypiggies. Are half the foundations of > those talks over 5 years old ... or more like 18 months? How old are > the tools, files, and technologies you deal with. Are half over 5 > years old? ... or less? I've been at this 35 years, and independent for the past 30 years. Mostly, I add tools to the toolbox and rarely do they drop out. I currently maintain software I designed and wrote in the late 70's, and other software I inherited originally written in the early 70's, as well as all I've written since. The tools I add now contribute to integrating systems which in turn extends the lifespan of the underlaying old technologies. In the ten years or so I plan to continue at this, I wonder if these systems will pass on when I finally stop supporting them or if these customers will look for people with the appropriate experience to continue. It may be that the inability to find the right skill set in _any_ programmer will finally kill these apps off. It seems to me that software doesn't die -- platforms improve and the software is revitalized by virtue of the increased speed of the platform. I imagine that's part of what's keeping cobol active as well. Emile From ddf at iqdotdt.com Fri Oct 30 18:24:52 2009 From: ddf at iqdotdt.com (Delbert Franz) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:24:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Chompapps Position - from Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <4AEB1600.6030409@noir.com> References: <20091030015355.0439B1940F6@noir.com> <4AEB1600.6030409@noir.com> Message-ID: <200910301024.52826.ddf@iqdotdt.com> On Friday 30 October 2009, K. Richard Pixley wrote: > Dennis Reinhardt wrote: (snip)> > Of course most of these technologies are under active development or at > least active maintenance. So it's not entirely accurate to say that > we're using 40yo technology. > > My point here is that I'm working on a very modern project and yes, a > significant portion of the technology involved extends back 40 years or > more. > > --rich > Great point! I have always taken those statements about the rapid change of "information" with a grain of salt:) Trying to pin down a good definition of what each author even means with the word "information" is nearly impossible. Much of what we use every day has roots many years ago and much has not changed but some has. In my opinion much of what is called "information" today is what is really ephemeral--here today gone tomorrow and probably so much the better. That covers much of the news, product announcements, predictions of the future:), all the mountains of "information" collected by web browsers, etc. It might be useful for some group but most of us have no need of it. I work in mathematical modeling of water flow in rivers, canals, sewers, etc. The conservation principles on which this is based are old, really old, and they have not changed at all:) The manner in which they are represented in the computer may have changed but most of the fundamental knowledge we learned in school is still "alive and well" today. So, "Bah Humbug" on all this talk about "knowledge" going out of date in five years. I have been writing sofware since 1963 and most of the skills needed then are about the same as the skills needed now: how to abstract what is important from some physical understanding of the world and express that in the programming language at hand in a way that is useful, maintainable, and can be expanded over time. The core design of my main piece of software was created in 1976 and has changed little since. The code has expanded from about 2000 lines of Fortran executed on a mini-computer with 64kB of code space and 64kb of data space--yes kb, not mb, nor gb. I have not bothered to count the lines of code now, who cares, but it is many times the original 2,000! Also the Fortran of today is far from the Fortran of 1976 which is one of the changes that is a "good thing"! My $0.02 on the "information" explosion! Delbert From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Oct 30 18:40:05 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:40:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggestions? Message-ID: Because I've *always* learned something from this community this when posting similar questions, I have the following snippet .. This project is imported on all machines. The organization is one module with reasonably small python files organized logically (backup.py, diskspace.py, shared.py, webserver.py, etc.) These are menu driven management scripts for someone doing operations. In my backup.py file, I have the following imports (organized in groups per PEP-8; http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/). However, one of our hosts intentionally doesn't have psycopg2 installed. How do most deal with the conditional import, while still keeping the imports grouped at the top of the file? Or, better yet, how do you deal with this? It's very tempting to break convention and only import psycopg2 module in the functions that need it. That seems extreme for just one node in our system, however. The following feels messy to me... I've been living with it, but then, I betcha someone at BayPIGgies has a good suggestion :) from datetime import datetime, timedelta import os import subprocess import sys import tarfile from optparse import OptionParser # There is no psycopg2 on host '[snip]' try: from psycopg2 import connect except ImportError: pass from myproject import other_modules # you get the idea -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at noir.com Fri Oct 30 19:29:46 2009 From: rich at noir.com (K. Richard Pixley) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:29:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEB309A.9050307@noir.com> Your way looks fine to me. I think the PEP is a bit oversimplistic about imports. I think there are at least a couple of really good reasons to put imports into the code line rather than at the top of the file. * in line, the imports are easier to move along with the code when refactoring. Done at the top of the file, you essentially end up moving the code, then bumping into the missing imports one at a time until you get them all. And imports which are no longer used, (the ones in the old file), may never be removed which is misleading to the point of being confusing as well as potentially impacting performance. * time. It takes essentially zero time to import an already imported module. So importing multiple times is cheap. However, the first import takes time - time that we may not need to spend. If we delay that cost, we may never need to pay it. Personally, I've often been putting many of my imports immediately prior to the first use of the thing being imported. But when I have to write an import a second time, I usually move the first import up in scope to cover both usages. I'll also move an import up in scope if it makes the code more readable or moves it out of a loop or other repeated code. I can see advantages to top level imports and I use them too for the most common imports, (like sys), or for things that I know are going to be used pervasively throughout a file. I haven't come to a completely comfortable balance for myself between using imports inline and placing them at the top of the file. I suspect I will gravitate towards inline for early development and things that can potentially be left unimported and gravitating towards top-of-file as the code matures. --rich Glen Jarvis wrote: > Because I've *always* learned something from this community this when > posting similar questions, I have the following snippet .. > > This project is imported on all machines. The organization is one > module with reasonably small python files organized logically > (backup.py, diskspace.py, shared.py, webserver.py, etc.) These are > menu driven management scripts for someone doing operations. > > In my backup.py file, I have the following imports (organized in > groups per PEP-8; http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/). However, > one of our hosts intentionally doesn't have psycopg2 installed. How do > most deal with the conditional import, while still keeping the imports > grouped at the top of the file? Or, better yet, how do you deal with > this? It's very tempting to break convention and only import psycopg2 > module in the functions that need it. That seems extreme for just one > node in our system, however. > > The following feels messy to me... I've been living with it, but then, > I betcha someone at BayPIGgies has a good suggestion :) > > from datetime import datetime, timedelta > import os > import subprocess > import sys > import tarfile > from optparse import OptionParser > # There is no psycopg2 on host '[snip]' > try: > from psycopg2 import connect > except ImportError: > pass > > from myproject import other_modules # you get the idea > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Fri Oct 30 19:41:05 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:41:05 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] cancel Nov 2009 meeting? In-Reply-To: <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> References: <78b3a9580907040027l3dd61183g500f151cf1c13b74@mail.gmail.com> <1246725384.6517.65.camel@jim-laptop> <20090704182217.GA18785@panix.com> <1246735175.6517.78.camel@jim-laptop> <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> Message-ID: <1256928065.6664.54.camel@jim-laptop> We have you scheduled to present on November 19 at Symantec's VCafe at 350 Ellis Street in Mountain View. Meeting starts at 7:30, Newbie Nugget starts at 7:35, your presentation follows the Newbie Nugget, probably around 7:45 or 7:50; you have until 8:45 to 9:00, around which time we have group announcements ("mapping") and then socializing ("random access"). all seems set to me. what's the context of your question (previous messages in the thread)? On Fri, 2009-10-30 at 16:35 +0100, Andrew Dalke wrote: > On Jul 5, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Aahz wrote: > > Maybe; it seems clearly to mean "Nov 2009", which I agree should have > > been expanded. (I have now done so.) > > > A bit confused here. I thought I was going to present for Nov 2009 > and that space was arranged? > > > On Oct 12, 2009, at 9:21 PM, jim wrote: > > > >> JS: we're saying "yes"; please confirm you'll give > >> a talk at the VCafe in Mountain View on November 19. > > > > Andrew > dalke at dalkescientific.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From wescpy at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 19:50:19 2009 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:50:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] cancel Nov 2009 meeting? In-Reply-To: <1256928065.6664.54.camel@jim-laptop> References: <78b3a9580907040027l3dd61183g500f151cf1c13b74@mail.gmail.com> <1246725384.6517.65.camel@jim-laptop> <20090704182217.GA18785@panix.com> <1246735175.6517.78.camel@jim-laptop> <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> <1256928065.6664.54.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <78b3a9580910301150k418d6a0fq62d7c24bf13c84c3@mail.gmail.com> i think andrew's confusion is because of the: 1) cancellation of the normal meeting on Nov 26 2) addition of the new meeting on Nov 19 the one meeting still counts as the "November" meeting, but that the date is changed, that's all. so when people say "cancelled," they mean the normal "4th thurs of the month" one that falls on thanksgiving. -wesley On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 11:41 AM, jim wrote: > > ? We have you scheduled to present on November 19 > at Symantec's VCafe at 350 Ellis Street in Mountain > View. Meeting starts at 7:30, Newbie Nugget starts > at 7:35, your presentation follows the Newbie Nugget, > probably around 7:45 or 7:50; you have until 8:45 to > 9:00, around which time we have group announcements > ("mapping") and then socializing ("random access"). > ? all seems set to me. what's the context of your > question (previous messages in the thread)? > > > > On Fri, 2009-10-30 at 16:35 +0100, Andrew Dalke wrote: >> On Jul 5, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Aahz wrote: >> > Maybe; it seems clearly to mean "Nov 2009", which I agree should have >> > been expanded. ?(I have now done so.) >> >> >> A bit confused here. I thought I was going to present for Nov 2009 >> and that space was arranged? >> >> > On Oct 12, 2009, at 9:21 PM, jim wrote: >> > >> >> JS: we're saying "yes"; please confirm you'll give >> >> a talk at the VCafe in Mountain View on November 19. From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Oct 30 19:53:23 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:53:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] cancel Nov 2009 meeting? In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580910301150k418d6a0fq62d7c24bf13c84c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <78b3a9580907040027l3dd61183g500f151cf1c13b74@mail.gmail.com> <1246725384.6517.65.camel@jim-laptop> <20090704182217.GA18785@panix.com> <1246735175.6517.78.camel@jim-laptop> <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> <1256928065.6664.54.camel@jim-laptop> <78b3a9580910301150k418d6a0fq62d7c24bf13c84c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091030185323.GA5118@panix.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009, wesley chun wrote: > > i think andrew's confusion is because of the: > > 1) cancellation of the normal meeting on Nov 26 > 2) addition of the new meeting on Nov 19 Actually, I think Andrew's confusion has more to do with who is speaking; IIRC at one point he was supposed to be speaking for November, but I've gotten the impression that other people are now speaking. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f From donnamsnow at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 20:01:13 2009 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:01:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] cancel Nov 2009 meeting? In-Reply-To: <20091030185323.GA5118@panix.com> References: <78b3a9580907040027l3dd61183g500f151cf1c13b74@mail.gmail.com> <1246725384.6517.65.camel@jim-laptop> <20090704182217.GA18785@panix.com> <1246735175.6517.78.camel@jim-laptop> <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> <1256928065.6664.54.camel@jim-laptop> <78b3a9580910301150k418d6a0fq62d7c24bf13c84c3@mail.gmail.com> <20091030185323.GA5118@panix.com> Message-ID: The Hacker Dojo in Mountain View would be a good place to hold meetings if Symantec can't accomodate. Just let me know what day/time and I can both sponsor and add it to our event calendar. Donna 'SnowWrite' Snow Donna 'SnowWrite' Snow On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009, wesley chun wrote: > > > > i think andrew's confusion is because of the: > > > > 1) cancellation of the normal meeting on Nov 26 > > 2) addition of the new meeting on Nov 19 > > Actually, I think Andrew's confusion has more to do with who is speaking; > IIRC at one point he was supposed to be speaking for November, but I've > gotten the impression that other people are now speaking. > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> > http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- > at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of > snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mvoorhie at yahoo.com Fri Oct 30 20:13:43 2009 From: mvoorhie at yahoo.com (Mark Voorhies) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:13:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4AEB309A.9050307@noir.com> References: <4AEB309A.9050307@noir.com> Message-ID: <200910301213.43851.mvoorhie@yahoo.com> I tend to follow the practice in Richard's answer (put imports close the the code that requires them, move them up in scope as they become more widely used within a module). Some of my bias for doing this may come from the C++ practice of declaring local variables immediately before their first use. I would be interested in the reasoning behind the PEP recommendation. I think that one good reason for resolving imports at the top of the file is to fail as early (and loudly) as possible if a required component is missing from the system. For this reason, I start all of my CGI scripts with a piece of self-contained boilerplate that tries to import the minimum required modules for the script (in particular, all of the error handling code) and handles exceptions by writing a generic error page/message to stdout/stderr. --Mark On Friday 30 October 2009 11:29 am K. Richard Pixley wrote: > Your way looks fine to me. > > I think the PEP is a bit oversimplistic about imports. I think there > are at least a couple of really good reasons to put imports into the > code line rather than at the top of the file. > > * in line, the imports are easier to move along with the code when > refactoring. Done at the top of the file, you essentially end up > moving the code, then bumping into the missing imports one at a > time until you get them all. And imports which are no longer > used, (the ones in the old file), may never be removed which is > misleading to the point of being confusing as well as potentially > impacting performance. > * time. It takes essentially zero time to import an already > imported module. So importing multiple times is cheap. However, > the first import takes time - time that we may not need to spend. > If we delay that cost, we may never need to pay it. > > Personally, I've often been putting many of my imports immediately prior > to the first use of the thing being imported. But when I have to write > an import a second time, I usually move the first import up in scope to > cover both usages. I'll also move an import up in scope if it makes the > code more readable or moves it out of a loop or other repeated code. > > I can see advantages to top level imports and I use them too for the > most common imports, (like sys), or for things that I know are going to > be used pervasively throughout a file. I haven't come to a completely > comfortable balance for myself between using imports inline and placing > them at the top of the file. I suspect I will gravitate towards inline > for early development and things that can potentially be left unimported > and gravitating towards top-of-file as the code matures. > > --rich > > Glen Jarvis wrote: > > Because I've *always* learned something from this community this when > > posting similar questions, I have the following snippet .. > > > > This project is imported on all machines. The organization is one > > module with reasonably small python files organized logically > > (backup.py, diskspace.py, shared.py, webserver.py, etc.) These are > > menu driven management scripts for someone doing operations. > > > > In my backup.py file, I have the following imports (organized in > > groups per PEP-8; http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/). However, > > one of our hosts intentionally doesn't have psycopg2 installed. How do > > most deal with the conditional import, while still keeping the imports > > grouped at the top of the file? Or, better yet, how do you deal with > > this? It's very tempting to break convention and only import psycopg2 > > module in the functions that need it. That seems extreme for just one > > node in our system, however. > > > > The following feels messy to me... I've been living with it, but then, > > I betcha someone at BayPIGgies has a good suggestion :) > > > > from datetime import datetime, timedelta > > import os > > import subprocess > > import sys > > import tarfile > > from optparse import OptionParser > > # There is no psycopg2 on host '[snip]' > > try: > > from psycopg2 import connect > > except ImportError: > > pass > > > > from myproject import other_modules # you get the idea > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From rami.chowdhury at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 20:23:31 2009 From: rami.chowdhury at gmail.com (Rami Chowdhury) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:23:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] cancel Nov 2009 meeting? In-Reply-To: <20091030185323.GA5118@panix.com> References: <78b3a9580907040027l3dd61183g500f151cf1c13b74@mail.gmail.com> <1246725384.6517.65.camel@jim-laptop> <20090704182217.GA18785@panix.com> <1246735175.6517.78.camel@jim-laptop> <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> <1256928065.6664.54.camel@jim-laptop> <78b3a9580910301150k418d6a0fq62d7c24bf13c84c3@mail.gmail.com> <20091030185323.GA5118@panix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:53:23 -0700, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009, wesley chun wrote: >> >> i think andrew's confusion is because of the: >> >> 1) cancellation of the normal meeting on Nov 26 >> 2) addition of the new meeting on Nov 19 > > Actually, I think Andrew's confusion has more to do with who is speaking; > IIRC at one point he was supposed to be speaking for November, but I've > gotten the impression that other people are now speaking. AFAICT Andrew is still the main speaker, and Glen is doing the Newbie Nugget? -- Rami Chowdhury "Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity" -- Hanlon's Razor 408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD) From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Oct 30 21:40:13 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:40:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] cancel Nov 2009 meeting? In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580907040027l3dd61183g500f151cf1c13b74@mail.gmail.com> <1246725384.6517.65.camel@jim-laptop> <20090704182217.GA18785@panix.com> <1246735175.6517.78.camel@jim-laptop> <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> <1256928065.6664.54.camel@jim-laptop> <78b3a9580910301150k418d6a0fq62d7c24bf13c84c3@mail.gmail.com> <20091030185323.GA5118@panix.com> Message-ID: > > AFAICT Andrew is still the main speaker, and Glen is doing the Newbie >> Nugget? > > > Actually, no. Jim found something else called PyMite (spelling?) that will be the Newbie Nugget. I have, however, volunteered to introduce everyone and do the same job that you did last month. Cheers, Glen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Fri Oct 30 22:17:37 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:17:37 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] cancel Nov 2009 meeting? In-Reply-To: <20091030185323.GA5118@panix.com> References: <78b3a9580907040027l3dd61183g500f151cf1c13b74@mail.gmail.com> <1246725384.6517.65.camel@jim-laptop> <20090704182217.GA18785@panix.com> <1246735175.6517.78.camel@jim-laptop> <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> <1256928065.6664.54.camel@jim-laptop> <78b3a9580910301150k418d6a0fq62d7c24bf13c84c3@mail.gmail.com> <20091030185323.GA5118@panix.com> Message-ID: <1256937457.6664.56.camel@jim-laptop> wesley's explanation is nice and clear. Aahz, whom does the IIRC say might be speaking at BayPIGgies in November? On Fri, 2009-10-30 at 11:53 -0700, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009, wesley chun wrote: > > > > i think andrew's confusion is because of the: > > > > 1) cancellation of the normal meeting on Nov 26 > > 2) addition of the new meeting on Nov 19 > > Actually, I think Andrew's confusion has more to do with who is speaking; > IIRC at one point he was supposed to be speaking for November, but I've > gotten the impression that other people are now speaking. From jim at well.com Fri Oct 30 22:21:17 2009 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:21:17 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] cancel Nov 2009 meeting? In-Reply-To: References: <78b3a9580907040027l3dd61183g500f151cf1c13b74@mail.gmail.com> <1246725384.6517.65.camel@jim-laptop> <20090704182217.GA18785@panix.com> <1246735175.6517.78.camel@jim-laptop> <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> <1256928065.6664.54.camel@jim-laptop> <78b3a9580910301150k418d6a0fq62d7c24bf13c84c3@mail.gmail.com> <20091030185323.GA5118@panix.com> Message-ID: <1256937677.6664.60.camel@jim-laptop> we changed the Newbie Nugget: Lamont Lucas will present essentials of PyMite. On Fri, 2009-10-30 at 12:23 -0700, Rami Chowdhury wrote: > On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:53:23 -0700, Aahz wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009, wesley chun wrote: > >> > >> i think andrew's confusion is because of the: > >> > >> 1) cancellation of the normal meeting on Nov 26 > >> 2) addition of the new meeting on Nov 19 > > > > Actually, I think Andrew's confusion has more to do with who is speaking; > > IIRC at one point he was supposed to be speaking for November, but I've > > gotten the impression that other people are now speaking. > > AFAICT Andrew is still the main speaker, and Glen is doing the Newbie > Nugget? > From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Oct 30 22:39:15 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:39:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] cancel Nov 2009 meeting? In-Reply-To: <1256937457.6664.56.camel@jim-laptop> References: <78b3a9580907040027l3dd61183g500f151cf1c13b74@mail.gmail.com> <1246725384.6517.65.camel@jim-laptop> <20090704182217.GA18785@panix.com> <1246735175.6517.78.camel@jim-laptop> <20090705151225.GA16723@panix.com> <065972BE-1140-4378-9A8D-F9A505EF038E@dalkescientific.com> <1256928065.6664.54.camel@jim-laptop> <78b3a9580910301150k418d6a0fq62d7c24bf13c84c3@mail.gmail.com> <20091030185323.GA5118@panix.com> <1256937457.6664.56.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <20091030213915.GA24553@panix.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009, jim wrote: > > wesley's explanation is nice and clear. Aahz, whom does the IIRC say > might be speaking at BayPIGgies in November? No clue, and it's possible I might be mixing up meetings; I've got a bit of con crud. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Oct 31 00:16:24 2009 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:16:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091030231623.GA21310@panix.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > In my backup.py file, I have the following imports (organized in groups per > PEP-8; http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/). However, one of our hosts > intentionally doesn't have psycopg2 installed. How do most deal with the > conditional import, while still keeping the imports grouped at the top of > the file? Or, better yet, how do you deal with this? It's very tempting to > break convention and only import psycopg2 module in the functions that need > it. That seems extreme for just one node in our system, however. Why not just break the psycopg2 stuff into a separate module that doesn't get used on one machine? Otherwise, the try/except is what I'd do. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing -- at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of snow." --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f From glen at glenjarvis.com Sat Oct 31 22:34:55 2009 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 14:34:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [Python Job] Ouch Message-ID: <5896B473-5D9D-4B66-A441-60E16CA1B45D@glenjarvis.com> As many of you know, about a year and a half ago I lost my job and I struggled doing contracting to stay in the Python field (I loved it that much). I took anything I could get my hand on, and scrambled -- I was desperate and a starving hacker. Then, in July, I started a contract at a local research institution. It was *awesome*.. I still *love* the position and they *still* seem to love me. It was a perfect environment because it was stable. And, when I found a mess, they allowed me to fix it. It was a perfect match to what I'd been looking for. This is only in the past tense because of a financial situation. My contract was running out and they created several positions with the intent of hiring others and possibly myself full-time. However, I just got the verbal offer.. ouch! I knew it would be low... but, Ouch! It's lower than my first job (Help Desk)... before I finished my degree. And, it's less than 10 percentile of what general application programmers get for this area (or most areas)... It seems my minimum to survive, budgeting tight, is higher than anyone in the lab currently makes.. And, the funds for contracting run out in a week... Have I said it yet, ouch! :) I thought I finally had it made. I thought, "I have a few more years to continue building my skills, while still being an ideal employee in a place I love." If I saw a mess, I'd fix it. If someone asked me to do something, I'd do it. I wasn't fussy because I got to focus on things that I liked: Python, Postgres and Apache for this skill set -- along with some cool science. It was mutual satisfaction on all sides. With that said, although I had planned to take a hit with my salary, I just *can't* afford to take this big of a hit. I want to either volunteer for them a few hours per week, or work part time. But, I have to find another at least a part time position -- I'd take full time too. My rate is anything between the 25 percentile and 75 percentile of what an application programmer makes in this area (that's a very large range in the middle). I self rate in at about 50% of the curve (and have been paid at least that much before). I'm out hitting the pavement again :( I don't think I have the skills (yet) to interview at Google and I don't want to play that card until I have a few more years of solid work/skills under my belt. I have a solid year plus (almost two) of Python programming under my belt, and things are starting to click. I do mostly OS/subprocess heavy lifting and Django work, but am far from an expert. I still have my own business and do a Django contracting on the side, but I am not as good as Simeon or others on this list. And, I haven't focused on building my client base because I was trying to get regular employment. I'm twice as good as I was last year when I was interviewing. But, I still have a long way to go -- at least another year -- before I would consider myself even close to an expert. If you know of something that would be part time and let me continue what I'm doing at the research institution, that'd be ideal -- This is a great fit for a very *small* start-up. If not, I gotta pay the bills and will take full time work... *begs on hands and knees* To keep the list traffic manageable... please respond off list unless it's directly Python related and will help the general community... Thank you *so* much for listening.. I *love* this community!!! Warmest Regards, Glen Jarvis P.S. To protect the privacy of certain institutions, I have not included my resume in this email. I can respond to you directly if you wish.