From pindiproli at nutanix.com Tue Feb 1 20:08:04 2011 From: pindiproli at nutanix.com (Ravi Pindiproli) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 11:08:04 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] QA Automation Engineer with stealth mode startup Message-ID: <00ec01cbc243$5b828970$12879c50$@com> Hello Everybody, We are a stealth mode startup working on a Virtualization appliance for next generation cloud computing. We are seeking a QA Automation engineer with stellar Python skills to join our team. BS / MS Computer Science strongly preferred. Bay area local candidates only - we are in Santa Clara. Nutanix has distributed systems professionals on our team who were part of the handful of people that built Google File System. Our Founders, having worked in organizations such as Oracle, Google as well as young startups like Aster Data Systems, are well rounded experienced Silicon Valley entrepreneurs. We have also raised a record Series A funding of $13 million from Lightspeed Ventures. Currently Nutanix has 20 employees. Please respond to me directly at pindiproli at nutanix.com Member of Technical Staff , Quality We are looking for a high-energy, hands-on and experienced software quality engineer to join our world-class engineering team. The person will be extremely hands-on and would have experience thoroughly testing software products or large-scale clustered web systems. We are looking for someone who has passion for getting down to the details and breaking the system. Responsibilities * Test planning and test case development * Test automation and execution * Root cause analysis of failures * Bug reporting and tracking Mandatory Skills: * Expertise in functional and system integration testing * Strong expertise in Python * Strong experience in Unix, preferably Linux * Ability to leverage open source tools for test, build and release management * Understanding of object-oriented development concepts * Passion for quality and collaborative teamwork Desirable Skills: * Experience in testing clustered/distributed systems * Experience working with virtualization technologies like VMWare, Hyper-V, Xen * Knowledge of Java and web-based GUI technologies like Flex, GWT or AJAX * Knowledge of storage and networking technologies * Experience in managing code repositories and continuous integration frameworks such as Hudson etc. Qualifications and Experience: * BS/ MS in Computer Science or Engineering * 3+ Years of QA experience Ravi Pindiproli Nutanix -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Feb 1 20:39:36 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 11:39:36 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed Message-ID: Roderick, I have had an experience today that I think you can relate to. I'm never been someone who has an issue with ageism because I am still quite young, pass for young, and am quite current with the 'trends' etc... However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did you finish High School." My mouth fell open. I couldn't believe that such a blatant question was asked. Maybe he didn't know. I explained that I could answer that question as it would reveal my age and that, therefore, was not a question he could ask. He never backed down. In fact, he become quite confrontational that I would have an issue with this. I was *amazed.* First of all, there is *NOTHING* possibly related to my resume of when I finished High School. Not a single thing - no matter how he tried to justify it. He can't justify "filling in any gaps" as High School was before my five year history on my resume. I did leave IBM to finish a degree at University - that is unusual - and would show a work gap until someone reviewed it. I can easily answer that question and explain. However, he didn't seem interested -- only when I graduated High School. I personally have no issue with my age as I'm currently in my programming prime. But, I refused to answer out of principle -- like when someone tries to ask race when they shouldn't. Regardless, I'm reeling from the conversation and am thinking of any type of legal sanctions that I could ask for. I need to calm down before I take this too seriously, but I am seriously considering what can be done as it was so blatant and so unapologetic. Cheers, Glen On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > So, my experience is that those resumes are not tossed automatically. >>> However, they must be related to the job in question. I found that the >>> quality of the programmer does not decline with age, even well past >>> retirement age -- especially if that person is proactive and stays >>> current >>> in their field. >>> >>> >> Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants for an ENTRY LEVEL >> Django Python Web job. None of the applicants have any experience in Python >> Django. Two are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer Science degrees >> and two have twenty years experience as programmers in a variety of areas, >> but none of it with Web applications, and they have made it clear on their >> cover letter that they will take a pay cut if necessary to meet the salary >> range of the job. >> >> How many hiring managers will consider all four applicants equally? >> >> Rob >> > > My personal experience is that they are all considered equally. If it were > me, I would consider them all equally. > > I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find cases where > some people will not treat those individuals equally. That's not generally > my experience, however. > > Warmest Regards, > > > > Glen -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patty at cruzio.com Tue Feb 1 20:58:51 2011 From: patty at cruzio.com (Patty) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 11:58:51 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed References: Message-ID: <1D171097E9F649E99BC0D362444E0480@mycomputer> Hi Glen - This is a fascinating topic you brought up as I am in the intensive job hunt myself. I completely empathize with your reaction to this phone interview! I was *sure* this was illegal and I wouldn't blame you if you filed a complaint. Surely this clouded your opportunity for a job with this company. That is not fair - wow! Patty ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Jarvis To: baypiggies at python.org Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed Roderick, I have had an experience today that I think you can relate to. I'm never been someone who has an issue with ageism because I am still quite young, pass for young, and am quite current with the 'trends' etc... However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did you finish High School." My mouth fell open. I couldn't believe that such a blatant question was asked. Maybe he didn't know. I explained that I could answer that question as it would reveal my age and that, therefore, was not a question he could ask. He never backed down. In fact, he become quite confrontational that I would have an issue with this. I was *amazed.* First of all, there is *NOTHING* possibly related to my resume of when I finished High School. Not a single thing - no matter how he tried to justify it. He can't justify "filling in any gaps" as High School was before my five year history on my resume. I did leave IBM to finish a degree at University - that is unusual - and would show a work gap until someone reviewed it. I can easily answer that question and explain. However, he didn't seem interested -- only when I graduated High School. I personally have no issue with my age as I'm currently in my programming prime. But, I refused to answer out of principle -- like when someone tries to ask race when they shouldn't. Regardless, I'm reeling from the conversation and am thinking of any type of legal sanctions that I could ask for. I need to calm down before I take this too seriously, but I am seriously considering what can be done as it was so blatant and so unapologetic. Cheers, Glen On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: So, my experience is that those resumes are not tossed automatically. However, they must be related to the job in question. I found that the quality of the programmer does not decline with age, even well past retirement age -- especially if that person is proactive and stays current in their field. Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants for an ENTRY LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the applicants have any experience in Python Django. Two are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer Science degrees and two have twenty years experience as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it with Web applications, and they have made it clear on their cover letter that they will take a pay cut if necessary to meet the salary range of the job. How many hiring managers will consider all four applicants equally? Rob My personal experience is that they are all considered equally. If it were me, I would consider them all equally. I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find cases where some people will not treat those individuals equally. That's not generally my experience, however. Warmest Regards, Glen -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Baypiggies mailing list Baypiggies at python.org To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at systemateka.com Tue Feb 1 21:26:26 2011 From: jim at systemateka.com (jim) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 12:26:26 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> some (long) time ago i was a hiring manager and not much experienced. i occasionally got feedback (and not kindly) as to my intrusive, illegal questions. i believe the criticisms were right, though they did not address my motives: to find out about the person, i.e. personality. it's a difficult problem: something like 30% of new hires turn out badly (for a variety of reasons, but one big one is mismatch to the job tasks). it sounds like you might have encountered someone who was trying to apply a formula (such as "we don' want no old people") rather than discover how to match you to their tasks. none-the-less i write this to suggest taking it easy, don't get worked up, even if this was blatant discrimination you should consider the possible backfiring effects of expressing indignity ("do you know, that glen guy never even went to high school" or worse). On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 11:39 -0800, Glen Jarvis wrote: > Roderick, > > I have had an experience today that I think you can relate to. I'm > never been someone who has an issue with ageism because I am still > quite young, pass for young, and am quite current with the 'trends' > etc... > > > However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of > ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or > not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did > you finish High School." > > > My mouth fell open. I couldn't believe that such > a blatant question was asked. Maybe he didn't know. I explained that I > could answer that question as it would reveal my age and that, > therefore, was not a question he could ask. He never backed down. In > fact, he become quite confrontational that I would have an issue with > this. I was *amazed.* > > > First of all, there is *NOTHING* possibly related to my resume of > when I finished High School. Not a single thing - no matter how he > tried to justify it. He can't justify "filling in any gaps" as High > School was before my five year history on my resume. I did leave IBM > to finish a degree at University - that is unusual - and would show a > work gap until someone reviewed it. I can easily answer that question > and explain. However, he didn't seem interested -- only when I > graduated High School. > > > I personally have no issue with my age as I'm currently in my > programming prime. But, I refused to answer out of principle -- like > when someone tries to ask race when they shouldn't. > > > Regardless, I'm reeling from the conversation and am thinking of > any type of legal sanctions that I could ask for. I need to calm down > before I take this too seriously, but I am seriously considering what > can be done as it was so blatant and so unapologetic. > > > Cheers, > > > > > Glen > > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Glen Jarvis > wrote: > So, my experience is that those resumes are > not tossed automatically. > However, they must be related to the job in > question. I found that the > quality of the programmer does not decline > with age, even well past > retirement age -- especially if that person is > proactive and stays current > in their field. > > > Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants > for an ENTRY LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the > applicants have any experience in Python Django. Two > are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer > Science degrees and two have twenty years experience > as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it > with Web applications, and they have made it clear on > their cover letter that they will take a pay cut if > necessary to meet the salary range of the job. > > How many hiring managers will consider all four > applicants equally? > > Rob > > > My personal experience is that they are all considered > equally. If it were me, I would consider them all equally. > > I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find > cases where some people will not treat those individuals > equally. That's not generally my experience, however. > > Warmest Regards, > > > > Glen > > > > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which > matter least. > > -- Goethe > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Feb 1 21:42:42 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:42:42 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: Fair points, Jim. But, would you push the question when you were told "You cannot ask me that question, as it would reveal my age and that question is illegal?" Would you continue pushing that question when you were told very clearly, "You cannot legally ask that question?" Cheers, Glen El Feb 1, 2011, a las 12:26 PM, jim escribi?: > > > some (long) time ago i was a hiring manager and not > much experienced. i occasionally got feedback (and not > kindly) as to my intrusive, illegal questions. i believe > the criticisms were right, though they did not address > my motives: to find out about the person, i.e. > personality. > it's a difficult problem: something like 30% of new > hires turn out badly (for a variety of reasons, but one > big one is mismatch to the job tasks). > it sounds like you might have encountered someone > who was trying to apply a formula (such as "we don' > want no old people") rather than discover how to match > you to their tasks. > none-the-less i write this to suggest taking it easy, > don't get worked up, even if this was blatant > discrimination you should consider the possible > backfiring effects of expressing indignity ("do you know, > that glen guy never even went to high school" or worse). > > > > > > > On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 11:39 -0800, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> Roderick, >> >> I have had an experience today that I think you can relate to. I'm >> never been someone who has an issue with ageism because I am still >> quite young, pass for young, and am quite current with the 'trends' >> etc... >> >> >> However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of >> ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or >> not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did >> you finish High School." >> >> >> My mouth fell open. I couldn't believe that such >> a blatant question was asked. Maybe he didn't know. I explained that I >> could answer that question as it would reveal my age and that, >> therefore, was not a question he could ask. He never backed down. In >> fact, he become quite confrontational that I would have an issue with >> this. I was *amazed.* >> >> >> First of all, there is *NOTHING* possibly related to my resume of >> when I finished High School. Not a single thing - no matter how he >> tried to justify it. He can't justify "filling in any gaps" as High >> School was before my five year history on my resume. I did leave IBM >> to finish a degree at University - that is unusual - and would show a >> work gap until someone reviewed it. I can easily answer that question >> and explain. However, he didn't seem interested -- only when I >> graduated High School. >> >> >> I personally have no issue with my age as I'm currently in my >> programming prime. But, I refused to answer out of principle -- like >> when someone tries to ask race when they shouldn't. >> >> >> Regardless, I'm reeling from the conversation and am thinking of >> any type of legal sanctions that I could ask for. I need to calm down >> before I take this too seriously, but I am seriously considering what >> can be done as it was so blatant and so unapologetic. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> >> Glen >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Glen Jarvis >> wrote: >> So, my experience is that those resumes are >> not tossed automatically. >> However, they must be related to the job in >> question. I found that the >> quality of the programmer does not decline >> with age, even well past >> retirement age -- especially if that person is >> proactive and stays current >> in their field. >> >> >> Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants >> for an ENTRY LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the >> applicants have any experience in Python Django. Two >> are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer >> Science degrees and two have twenty years experience >> as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it >> with Web applications, and they have made it clear on >> their cover letter that they will take a pay cut if >> necessary to meet the salary range of the job. >> >> How many hiring managers will consider all four >> applicants equally? >> >> Rob >> >> >> My personal experience is that they are all considered >> equally. If it were me, I would consider them all equally. >> >> I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find >> cases where some people will not treat those individuals >> equally. That's not generally my experience, however. >> >> Warmest Regards, >> >> >> >> Glen >> >> >> >> -- >> Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which >> matter least. >> >> -- Goethe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Feb 1 22:43:09 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:43:09 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: And, since a few have asked privately, let me put this out there for the record... I did graduate High School, top 5% of my class with several honors. The point isn't that I have anything to hide (I actually don't). Yes, I worked first before getting my degree, and did quite well without a degree. That makes my history unusual. But, not *that* unusual. If one were to ask "Did you graduate?" I would happily answer that question (as it is relevant and I'm proud of doing so well). I'd love to throw in that I also graduated a very reputable University in the midwest Cum Laude. But, "When did you graduate?" clearly tells how old someone is. And, that question should be allowed to be refused without any repercussions. This is especially true since there is obviously enough work history on my resume to show that I graduated quite a while back, and went back to University as an older student. It's also not personal. I don't personally mind. If it weren't illegal, I would have answered immediately (probably without even thinking about it). I only refuse to answer because it *is* illegal to ask and one should have the right to refuse something that is illegal to be asked. Cheers, Glen On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > Fair points, Jim. But, would you push the question when you were told "You > cannot ask me that question, as it would reveal my age and that question is > illegal?" > > Would you continue pushing that question when you were told very clearly, > "You cannot legally ask that question?" > > Cheers, > > > Glen > > El Feb 1, 2011, a las 12:26 PM, jim escribi?: > > > > > > > some (long) time ago i was a hiring manager and not > > much experienced. i occasionally got feedback (and not > > kindly) as to my intrusive, illegal questions. i believe > > the criticisms were right, though they did not address > > my motives: to find out about the person, i.e. > > personality. > > it's a difficult problem: something like 30% of new > > hires turn out badly (for a variety of reasons, but one > > big one is mismatch to the job tasks). > > it sounds like you might have encountered someone > > who was trying to apply a formula (such as "we don' > > want no old people") rather than discover how to match > > you to their tasks. > > none-the-less i write this to suggest taking it easy, > > don't get worked up, even if this was blatant > > discrimination you should consider the possible > > backfiring effects of expressing indignity ("do you know, > > that glen guy never even went to high school" or worse). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 11:39 -0800, Glen Jarvis wrote: > >> Roderick, > >> > >> I have had an experience today that I think you can relate to. I'm > >> never been someone who has an issue with ageism because I am still > >> quite young, pass for young, and am quite current with the 'trends' > >> etc... > >> > >> > >> However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of > >> ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or > >> not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did > >> you finish High School." > >> > >> > >> My mouth fell open. I couldn't believe that such > >> a blatant question was asked. Maybe he didn't know. I explained that I > >> could answer that question as it would reveal my age and that, > >> therefore, was not a question he could ask. He never backed down. In > >> fact, he become quite confrontational that I would have an issue with > >> this. I was *amazed.* > >> > >> > >> First of all, there is *NOTHING* possibly related to my resume of > >> when I finished High School. Not a single thing - no matter how he > >> tried to justify it. He can't justify "filling in any gaps" as High > >> School was before my five year history on my resume. I did leave IBM > >> to finish a degree at University - that is unusual - and would show a > >> work gap until someone reviewed it. I can easily answer that question > >> and explain. However, he didn't seem interested -- only when I > >> graduated High School. > >> > >> > >> I personally have no issue with my age as I'm currently in my > >> programming prime. But, I refused to answer out of principle -- like > >> when someone tries to ask race when they shouldn't. > >> > >> > >> Regardless, I'm reeling from the conversation and am thinking of > >> any type of legal sanctions that I could ask for. I need to calm down > >> before I take this too seriously, but I am seriously considering what > >> can be done as it was so blatant and so unapologetic. > >> > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Glen > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Glen Jarvis > >> wrote: > >> So, my experience is that those resumes are > >> not tossed automatically. > >> However, they must be related to the job in > >> question. I found that the > >> quality of the programmer does not decline > >> with age, even well past > >> retirement age -- especially if that person is > >> proactive and stays current > >> in their field. > >> > >> > >> Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants > >> for an ENTRY LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the > >> applicants have any experience in Python Django. Two > >> are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer > >> Science degrees and two have twenty years experience > >> as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it > >> with Web applications, and they have made it clear on > >> their cover letter that they will take a pay cut if > >> necessary to meet the salary range of the job. > >> > >> How many hiring managers will consider all four > >> applicants equally? > >> > >> Rob > >> > >> > >> My personal experience is that they are all considered > >> equally. If it were me, I would consider them all equally. > >> > >> I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find > >> cases where some people will not treat those individuals > >> equally. That's not generally my experience, however. > >> > >> Warmest Regards, > >> > >> > >> > >> Glen > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which > >> matter least. > >> > >> -- Goethe > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsivitz at vonchurch.com Tue Feb 1 23:44:35 2011 From: lsivitz at vonchurch.com (Lumen Sivitz) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 14:44:35 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: I'm a recruiter in the space and I must say, I'm not surprised to hear this account. As professionals in 'hiring', we know the rules well. We realize the (quite serious) ramifications of abuse with regards to these sensitive questions. Unfortunately, our clients and hiring managers such as the one you've written about here rarely fully understand the faux pas they are committing when pursuing such a line of questioning. Because the knowledge is not as common as it probably should be, people like this manager haven't heard the horror stories that might scare them off these tactics. It's not pleasant to hear that this particular manager decided to go down this path as he/she did, but Glen, you handled it probably as well as you could have. Obviously your options for recourse in a situation like this are two fold: press them with legal action, or, better yet, make sure all the best developers you know are aware of their distasteful hiring practices. A kick in the wallet hurts, but a blow to the recruiting pipeline kills. ;-) Good luck in your search ;) -Lumen On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > And, since a few have asked privately, let me put this out there for the > record... > > I did graduate High School, top 5% of my class with several honors. > > The point isn't that I have anything to hide (I actually don't). Yes, I > worked first before getting my degree, and did quite well without a degree. > That makes my history unusual. But, not *that* unusual. If one were to ask > "Did you graduate?" I would happily answer that question (as it is relevant > and I'm proud of doing so well). I'd love to throw in that I also graduated > a very reputable University in the midwest Cum Laude. > > But, "When did you graduate?" clearly tells how old someone is. And, that > question should be allowed to be refused without any repercussions. This is > especially true since there is obviously enough work history on my resume to > show that I graduated quite a while back, and went back to University as an > older student. > > It's also not personal. I don't personally mind. If it weren't illegal, I > would have answered immediately (probably without even thinking about it). I > only refuse to answer because it *is* illegal to ask and one should have the > right to refuse something that is illegal to be asked. > > > Cheers, > > > Glen > > > On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > >> Fair points, Jim. But, would you push the question when you were told "You >> cannot ask me that question, as it would reveal my age and that question is >> illegal?" >> >> Would you continue pushing that question when you were told very clearly, >> "You cannot legally ask that question?" >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Glen >> >> El Feb 1, 2011, a las 12:26 PM, jim escribi?: >> >> > >> > >> > some (long) time ago i was a hiring manager and not >> > much experienced. i occasionally got feedback (and not >> > kindly) as to my intrusive, illegal questions. i believe >> > the criticisms were right, though they did not address >> > my motives: to find out about the person, i.e. >> > personality. >> > it's a difficult problem: something like 30% of new >> > hires turn out badly (for a variety of reasons, but one >> > big one is mismatch to the job tasks). >> > it sounds like you might have encountered someone >> > who was trying to apply a formula (such as "we don' >> > want no old people") rather than discover how to match >> > you to their tasks. >> > none-the-less i write this to suggest taking it easy, >> > don't get worked up, even if this was blatant >> > discrimination you should consider the possible >> > backfiring effects of expressing indignity ("do you know, >> > that glen guy never even went to high school" or worse). >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 11:39 -0800, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> >> Roderick, >> >> >> >> I have had an experience today that I think you can relate to. I'm >> >> never been someone who has an issue with ageism because I am still >> >> quite young, pass for young, and am quite current with the 'trends' >> >> etc... >> >> >> >> >> >> However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of >> >> ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or >> >> not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did >> >> you finish High School." >> >> >> >> >> >> My mouth fell open. I couldn't believe that such >> >> a blatant question was asked. Maybe he didn't know. I explained that I >> >> could answer that question as it would reveal my age and that, >> >> therefore, was not a question he could ask. He never backed down. In >> >> fact, he become quite confrontational that I would have an issue with >> >> this. I was *amazed.* >> >> >> >> >> >> First of all, there is *NOTHING* possibly related to my resume of >> >> when I finished High School. Not a single thing - no matter how he >> >> tried to justify it. He can't justify "filling in any gaps" as High >> >> School was before my five year history on my resume. I did leave IBM >> >> to finish a degree at University - that is unusual - and would show a >> >> work gap until someone reviewed it. I can easily answer that question >> >> and explain. However, he didn't seem interested -- only when I >> >> graduated High School. >> >> >> >> >> >> I personally have no issue with my age as I'm currently in my >> >> programming prime. But, I refused to answer out of principle -- like >> >> when someone tries to ask race when they shouldn't. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regardless, I'm reeling from the conversation and am thinking of >> >> any type of legal sanctions that I could ask for. I need to calm down >> >> before I take this too seriously, but I am seriously considering what >> >> can be done as it was so blatant and so unapologetic. >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Glen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Glen Jarvis >> >> wrote: >> >> So, my experience is that those resumes are >> >> not tossed automatically. >> >> However, they must be related to the job in >> >> question. I found that the >> >> quality of the programmer does not decline >> >> with age, even well past >> >> retirement age -- especially if that person is >> >> proactive and stays current >> >> in their field. >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants >> >> for an ENTRY LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the >> >> applicants have any experience in Python Django. Two >> >> are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer >> >> Science degrees and two have twenty years experience >> >> as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it >> >> with Web applications, and they have made it clear on >> >> their cover letter that they will take a pay cut if >> >> necessary to meet the salary range of the job. >> >> >> >> How many hiring managers will consider all four >> >> applicants equally? >> >> >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> >> >> My personal experience is that they are all considered >> >> equally. If it were me, I would consider them all equally. >> >> >> >> I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find >> >> cases where some people will not treat those individuals >> >> equally. That's not generally my experience, however. >> >> >> >> Warmest Regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Glen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which >> >> matter least. >> >> >> >> -- Goethe >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Baypiggies mailing list >> >> Baypiggies at python.org >> >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > >> > > > > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter > least. > > -- Goethe > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- *Lumen Sivitz* *Junior Partner* *VonChurch**, Inc.* *Phone: (415)229-7699 **LSivitz at VonChurch.com** * *www.VonChurch.com* *Work Hard | Play Harder* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From python at dylanreinhardt.com Wed Feb 2 00:13:21 2011 From: python at dylanreinhardt.com (Dylan Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 15:13:21 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of > ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or not, > came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did you finish > High School." > > Suggested answer for next time: When I was 18. Next question? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From talk at onsrc.com Wed Feb 2 00:30:15 2011 From: talk at onsrc.com (Ryan Delucchi) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 15:30:15 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A66F22-0A96-4404-A9F8-78409513BB8A@onsrc.com> You could respond from blatantism with blatantism, in other words: Interviewer: "When did you finish High School?" Candidate: "uhm ... Do you have a good lawyer?" Seriously, any company that foolish enough to ask something like this is *not* somewhere you would want to work, anyway. In other words, I'd bet that any company that disregards legal hiring policies will just as easily disregard State/Federal labor policies as well. Ryan On Feb 1, 2011, at 3:13 PM, Dylan Reinhardt wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did you finish High School." > > > Suggested answer for next time: When I was 18. > > Next question? > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roderick at sanfransystems.com Wed Feb 2 00:28:24 2011 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 15:28:24 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Agism Etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D489718.6010901@sanfransystems.com> Hello All and most especially Glen, Thanks for that posting, Glen. I understand your anger and such, and thanks for sharing. Let me respond to some issues you and others have raised: 1. You probably have no legal case. I am not an attorney, but I have been around the law quite a bit including haveing filed or help fund many lawsuits (public advocacy in the latter case). Let me tell you that the Law is almost completely worthless for achieving justice. Obstacles are set very high, prices are outrageous, and company attorneys have way more time and money than you do. That being said, occasionally the mere threat of a suit is enough to get a settlement. You will of course not want to work for a company that you have just sued... you can just imagine what working there will be like. You might be able to get a cash settlement. Possibly in the Internet age, companies are more afraid of bad reviews than lawsuits. But I wouldn't bet on it. Remember six months ago or so that company advertising on BayPiggies that wanted people that were "young, aggressive, smart" or something like that? I called them on it on the list. Within a couple days, as I predicted, the internal recruiter had retracted their statement saying that they would consider all ages equally and that he was mistaken in his statement. Of course he was lying. Needless to say, there was no way they would give me equal consideration. Without doubt, the recruiter type talked to the company attorney, or it came to his attention, and he told them to retract it immediately. OK, here's why you likely have no case. You have to in any liability type case generally prove financial damages; this gives you what's called "standing". You cannot prove that they would have hired you anyway, even if they did not discriminate on the basis of age. Plus, since you are in the prime age group to be hired by these firms, it would be like a white person complaining that the firm he's applying to discriminates against black people. Possibly true, but that person doesn't have "standing" - in other words, he has no "skin in the game" (lol!). These small companies have a million reasons why you would not be a good choice for them. They want people who snowboard, they want people who drink lemon tea, they need people who are most similar to their customers (who happen to be high schoolers), whatever. Mostly they would just say "your experience is not a good match for our requirements". And how do you prove otherwise? Almost all of the successful discrimination cases are based on statistics. For example, McDonald's has thousands of employees. Their employee base can be mined to determine how many women or blacks are employed, compared to how many are in the community or responded to job postings. Then a statistical argument can be mounted to show that even if we cannot prove that any one individual was not hired due to race or sex (i.e., would have been hired in absence of the discrimination), statistics prove that they must discriminate. Sting operations can also be used (e.g., sending two identical resumes in, but one clearly from a man, one from a woman, and test the results). But an attorney cannot do those things without significant funds, meaning that the targeted firm would have to have deep pockets, and your company is probably too small to bother. 2. "Programming Prime" and other such concepts: I would stack my programming ability up against anybody's! :) Now it is true that most great scientists did their best work when young. But programming is not science, it's engineering. And when was the last time YOU invented a new sorting algorithm, a new data or control structure, or proved an important conjecture like does P = NP?? I certainly never have! 3. Considering applicants equally: this NEVER happens. It is simply against human nature. Study after study has proven this. We like to think of ourselves as above this... but we aren't. We all actively seek the company of those we view as similar to ourselves, although those similarities need not be based on race, age, or sex, or any of the other legally "protected" groups. You might manage it when you're just looking at resumes, because resumes aren't people. But the moment a candidate walks thru the door, your primitive brain goes to work, judging... judging... is he or she one of Us? Or one of the Others? 4. What you are doing, Glen, is the best thing you can do. Fume about it on BayPiggies. And DON'T be afraid to name names! I do! The best way to punish companies that discriminate unfortunately is not in the law which is basically toothless. The best way is to reduce their pool of candidates by publicizing their misdeeds. And to those who would complain that "that might be the action of one bad apple recruiter/employee and so you're unfairly punishing the firm", I respond: tough. Let them hire better people that they vet more carefully. The recruiter is judging YOU? He probably can't tell the periodic chart from the multiplication table. Did you ask him when HE graduated from high school? Then you could say "I'm sorry, you're just not old enough to judge me". What a laugh. It's like my walking into a downtown hair salon and having the hairdresser give me attitude cause I'm not wearing a tie, when I have a degree from MIT, co-founded part of Symantec, have a 2nd degree black belt in Aikido... and he's dissing ME!! hah hah hah - Roderick Llewellyn From jesse_gough at symantec.com Wed Feb 2 00:36:35 2011 From: jesse_gough at symantec.com (Jesse Gough) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 15:36:35 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> I was quite surprised to see that the background screening form for a job that I recently applied for actually had DOB as a mandatory field, along with SSN. They wanted mother's maiden name, but that was optional. That was probably the least offensive part of the form though. They wanted me to authorize a highly invasive background check for a development job. This included giving them the right to interview neighbors and friends, check my driving record, credit history, school records, and anything else. Oddly, asking for a DOB is illegal, but asking for all of that (which would surely make your approximate DOB obvious) is not. On Tue, 01 Feb 2011, Lumen Sivitz wrote: > I'm a recruiter in the space and I must say, I'm not surprised to hear this > account. As professionals in 'hiring', we know the rules well. We realize > the (quite serious) ramifications of abuse with regards to these sensitive > questions. Unfortunately, our clients and hiring managers such as the one > you've written about here rarely fully understand the faux pas they are > committing when pursuing such a line of questioning. Because the knowledge > is not as common as it probably should be, people like this manager haven't > heard the horror stories that might scare them off these tactics. > > It's not pleasant to hear that this particular manager decided to go down > this path as he/she did, but Glen, you handled it probably as well as you > could have. Obviously your options for recourse in a situation like this > are two fold: press them with legal action, or, better yet, make sure all > the best developers you know are aware of their distasteful hiring > practices. A kick in the wallet hurts, but a blow to the recruiting > pipeline kills. ;-) > > Good luck in your search ;) > > > -Lumen > > > On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > > And, since a few have asked privately, let me put this out there for the > > record... > > > > I did graduate High School, top 5% of my class with several honors. > > > > The point isn't that I have anything to hide (I actually don't). Yes, I > > worked first before getting my degree, and did quite well without a degree. > > That makes my history unusual. But, not *that* unusual. If one were to ask > > "Did you graduate?" I would happily answer that question (as it is relevant > > and I'm proud of doing so well). I'd love to throw in that I also graduated > > a very reputable University in the midwest Cum Laude. > > > > But, "When did you graduate?" clearly tells how old someone is. And, that > > question should be allowed to be refused without any repercussions. This is > > especially true since there is obviously enough work history on my resume to > > show that I graduated quite a while back, and went back to University as an > > older student. > > > > It's also not personal. I don't personally mind. If it weren't illegal, I > > would have answered immediately (probably without even thinking about it). I > > only refuse to answer because it *is* illegal to ask and one should have the > > right to refuse something that is illegal to be asked. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Glen > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > > >> Fair points, Jim. But, would you push the question when you were told "You > >> cannot ask me that question, as it would reveal my age and that question is > >> illegal?" > >> > >> Would you continue pushing that question when you were told very clearly, > >> "You cannot legally ask that question?" > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> > >> Glen > >> > >> El Feb 1, 2011, a las 12:26 PM, jim escribi?: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > some (long) time ago i was a hiring manager and not > >> > much experienced. i occasionally got feedback (and not > >> > kindly) as to my intrusive, illegal questions. i believe > >> > the criticisms were right, though they did not address > >> > my motives: to find out about the person, i.e. > >> > personality. > >> > it's a difficult problem: something like 30% of new > >> > hires turn out badly (for a variety of reasons, but one > >> > big one is mismatch to the job tasks). > >> > it sounds like you might have encountered someone > >> > who was trying to apply a formula (such as "we don' > >> > want no old people") rather than discover how to match > >> > you to their tasks. > >> > none-the-less i write this to suggest taking it easy, > >> > don't get worked up, even if this was blatant > >> > discrimination you should consider the possible > >> > backfiring effects of expressing indignity ("do you know, > >> > that glen guy never even went to high school" or worse). > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 11:39 -0800, Glen Jarvis wrote: > >> >> Roderick, > >> >> > >> >> I have had an experience today that I think you can relate to. I'm > >> >> never been someone who has an issue with ageism because I am still > >> >> quite young, pass for young, and am quite current with the 'trends' > >> >> etc... > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of > >> >> ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or > >> >> not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did > >> >> you finish High School." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> My mouth fell open. I couldn't believe that such > >> >> a blatant question was asked. Maybe he didn't know. I explained that I > >> >> could answer that question as it would reveal my age and that, > >> >> therefore, was not a question he could ask. He never backed down. In > >> >> fact, he become quite confrontational that I would have an issue with > >> >> this. I was *amazed.* > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> First of all, there is *NOTHING* possibly related to my resume of > >> >> when I finished High School. Not a single thing - no matter how he > >> >> tried to justify it. He can't justify "filling in any gaps" as High > >> >> School was before my five year history on my resume. I did leave IBM > >> >> to finish a degree at University - that is unusual - and would show a > >> >> work gap until someone reviewed it. I can easily answer that question > >> >> and explain. However, he didn't seem interested -- only when I > >> >> graduated High School. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I personally have no issue with my age as I'm currently in my > >> >> programming prime. But, I refused to answer out of principle -- like > >> >> when someone tries to ask race when they shouldn't. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Regardless, I'm reeling from the conversation and am thinking of > >> >> any type of legal sanctions that I could ask for. I need to calm down > >> >> before I take this too seriously, but I am seriously considering what > >> >> can be done as it was so blatant and so unapologetic. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Cheers, > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Glen > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Glen Jarvis > >> >> wrote: > >> >> So, my experience is that those resumes are > >> >> not tossed automatically. > >> >> However, they must be related to the job in > >> >> question. I found that the > >> >> quality of the programmer does not decline > >> >> with age, even well past > >> >> retirement age -- especially if that person is > >> >> proactive and stays current > >> >> in their field. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants > >> >> for an ENTRY LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the > >> >> applicants have any experience in Python Django. Two > >> >> are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer > >> >> Science degrees and two have twenty years experience > >> >> as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it > >> >> with Web applications, and they have made it clear on > >> >> their cover letter that they will take a pay cut if > >> >> necessary to meet the salary range of the job. > >> >> > >> >> How many hiring managers will consider all four > >> >> applicants equally? > >> >> > >> >> Rob > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> My personal experience is that they are all considered > >> >> equally. If it were me, I would consider them all equally. > >> >> > >> >> I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find > >> >> cases where some people will not treat those individuals > >> >> equally. That's not generally my experience, however. > >> >> > >> >> Warmest Regards, > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Glen > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which > >> >> matter least. > >> >> > >> >> -- Goethe > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter > > least. > > > > -- Goethe > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > -- > > > *Lumen Sivitz* > *Junior Partner* > > *VonChurch**, Inc.* > > *Phone: (415)229-7699 > **LSivitz at VonChurch.com** * > *www.VonChurch.com* > > *Work Hard | Play Harder* > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- From nstinemates at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 00:48:23 2011 From: nstinemates at gmail.com (Nick Stinemates) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 15:48:23 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7FC54D0E-01ED-4D0E-9679-89E137BA0A92@gmail.com> Sorry to bear about this experience, Glen. That is terrible. Nick On Feb 1, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > Roderick, > > I have had an experience today that I think you can relate to. I'm never been someone who has an issue with ageism because I am still quite young, pass for young, and am quite current with the 'trends' etc... > > However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did you finish High School." > > My mouth fell open. I couldn't believe that such a blatant question was asked. Maybe he didn't know. I explained that I could answer that question as it would reveal my age and that, therefore, was not a question he could ask. He never backed down. In fact, he become quite confrontational that I would have an issue with this. I was *amazed.* > > First of all, there is *NOTHING* possibly related to my resume of when I finished High School. Not a single thing - no matter how he tried to justify it. He can't justify "filling in any gaps" as High School was before my five year history on my resume. I did leave IBM to finish a degree at University - that is unusual - and would show a work gap until someone reviewed it. I can easily answer that question and explain. However, he didn't seem interested -- only when I graduated High School. > > I personally have no issue with my age as I'm currently in my programming prime. But, I refused to answer out of principle -- like when someone tries to ask race when they shouldn't. > > Regardless, I'm reeling from the conversation and am thinking of any type of legal sanctions that I could ask for. I need to calm down before I take this too seriously, but I am seriously considering what can be done as it was so blatant and so unapologetic. > > Cheers, > > > Glen > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > So, my experience is that those resumes are not tossed automatically. > However, they must be related to the job in question. I found that the > quality of the programmer does not decline with age, even well past > retirement age -- especially if that person is proactive and stays current > in their field. > > > Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants for an ENTRY LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the applicants have any experience in Python Django. Two are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer Science degrees and two have twenty years experience as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it with Web applications, and they have made it clear on their cover letter that they will take a pay cut if necessary to meet the salary range of the job. > > How many hiring managers will consider all four applicants equally? > > Rob > > My personal experience is that they are all considered equally. If it were me, I would consider them all equally. > > I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find cases where some people will not treat those individuals equally. That's not generally my experience, however. > > Warmest Regards, > > > > Glen > > > > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. > > -- Goethe > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Wed Feb 2 00:49:22 2011 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 15:49:22 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: <40A66F22-0A96-4404-A9F8-78409513BB8A@onsrc.com> References: <40A66F22-0A96-4404-A9F8-78409513BB8A@onsrc.com> Message-ID: <1296604162.1821.10.camel@jim-laptop> note that the interviewer is a particular person, not a company, and not necessarily speaking for or representative of the other people working there. On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 15:30 -0800, Ryan Delucchi wrote: > You could respond from blatantism with blatantism, in other words: > > > Interviewer: "When did you finish High School?" > Candidate: "uhm ... Do you have a good lawyer?" > > > Seriously, any company that foolish enough to ask something like this > is *not* somewhere you would want to work, anyway. In other words, > I'd bet that any company that disregards legal hiring policies will > just as easily disregard State/Federal labor policies as well. > > > Ryan > > On Feb 1, 2011, at 3:13 PM, Dylan Reinhardt wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Glen Jarvis > > wrote: > > > > However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant > > violation of ageism today. I had a phone screening with > > someone who, believe it or not, came from the BayPIGgies > > list. They asked me blatantly "When did you finish High > > School." > > > > > > > > > > Suggested answer for next time: When I was 18. > > > > Next question? > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From nstinemates at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 00:56:24 2011 From: nstinemates at gmail.com (Nick Stinemates) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 15:56:24 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> Message-ID: We just had to go through a company wide audit which required that information as well. We work with banks and sometimes work with their data. The only part we care about, though, is your criminal history. Nick On Feb 1, 2011, at 3:36 PM, Jesse Gough wrote: > I was quite surprised to see that the background screening form for a > job that I recently applied for actually had DOB as a mandatory field, > along with SSN. They wanted mother's maiden name, but that was > optional. > > That was probably the least offensive part of the form though. They > wanted me to authorize a highly invasive background check for a > development job. This included giving them the right to interview > neighbors and friends, check my driving record, credit history, school > records, and anything else. Oddly, asking for a DOB is illegal, but > asking for all of that (which would surely make your approximate DOB > obvious) is not. > > > > On Tue, 01 Feb 2011, Lumen Sivitz wrote: > >> I'm a recruiter in the space and I must say, I'm not surprised to hear this >> account. As professionals in 'hiring', we know the rules well. We realize >> the (quite serious) ramifications of abuse with regards to these sensitive >> questions. Unfortunately, our clients and hiring managers such as the one >> you've written about here rarely fully understand the faux pas they are >> committing when pursuing such a line of questioning. Because the knowledge >> is not as common as it probably should be, people like this manager haven't >> heard the horror stories that might scare them off these tactics. >> >> It's not pleasant to hear that this particular manager decided to go down >> this path as he/she did, but Glen, you handled it probably as well as you >> could have. Obviously your options for recourse in a situation like this >> are two fold: press them with legal action, or, better yet, make sure all >> the best developers you know are aware of their distasteful hiring >> practices. A kick in the wallet hurts, but a blow to the recruiting >> pipeline kills. ;-) >> >> Good luck in your search ;) >> >> >> -Lumen >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> >>> And, since a few have asked privately, let me put this out there for the >>> record... >>> >>> I did graduate High School, top 5% of my class with several honors. >>> >>> The point isn't that I have anything to hide (I actually don't). Yes, I >>> worked first before getting my degree, and did quite well without a degree. >>> That makes my history unusual. But, not *that* unusual. If one were to ask >>> "Did you graduate?" I would happily answer that question (as it is relevant >>> and I'm proud of doing so well). I'd love to throw in that I also graduated >>> a very reputable University in the midwest Cum Laude. >>> >>> But, "When did you graduate?" clearly tells how old someone is. And, that >>> question should be allowed to be refused without any repercussions. This is >>> especially true since there is obviously enough work history on my resume to >>> show that I graduated quite a while back, and went back to University as an >>> older student. >>> >>> It's also not personal. I don't personally mind. If it weren't illegal, I >>> would have answered immediately (probably without even thinking about it). I >>> only refuse to answer because it *is* illegal to ask and one should have the >>> right to refuse something that is illegal to be asked. >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> Glen >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >>> >>>> Fair points, Jim. But, would you push the question when you were told "You >>>> cannot ask me that question, as it would reveal my age and that question is >>>> illegal?" >>>> >>>> Would you continue pushing that question when you were told very clearly, >>>> "You cannot legally ask that question?" >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> >>>> Glen >>>> >>>> El Feb 1, 2011, a las 12:26 PM, jim escribi?: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> some (long) time ago i was a hiring manager and not >>>>> much experienced. i occasionally got feedback (and not >>>>> kindly) as to my intrusive, illegal questions. i believe >>>>> the criticisms were right, though they did not address >>>>> my motives: to find out about the person, i.e. >>>>> personality. >>>>> it's a difficult problem: something like 30% of new >>>>> hires turn out badly (for a variety of reasons, but one >>>>> big one is mismatch to the job tasks). >>>>> it sounds like you might have encountered someone >>>>> who was trying to apply a formula (such as "we don' >>>>> want no old people") rather than discover how to match >>>>> you to their tasks. >>>>> none-the-less i write this to suggest taking it easy, >>>>> don't get worked up, even if this was blatant >>>>> discrimination you should consider the possible >>>>> backfiring effects of expressing indignity ("do you know, >>>>> that glen guy never even went to high school" or worse). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 11:39 -0800, Glen Jarvis wrote: >>>>>> Roderick, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have had an experience today that I think you can relate to. I'm >>>>>> never been someone who has an issue with ageism because I am still >>>>>> quite young, pass for young, and am quite current with the 'trends' >>>>>> etc... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of >>>>>> ageism today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or >>>>>> not, came from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me blatantly "When did >>>>>> you finish High School." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My mouth fell open. I couldn't believe that such >>>>>> a blatant question was asked. Maybe he didn't know. I explained that I >>>>>> could answer that question as it would reveal my age and that, >>>>>> therefore, was not a question he could ask. He never backed down. In >>>>>> fact, he become quite confrontational that I would have an issue with >>>>>> this. I was *amazed.* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> First of all, there is *NOTHING* possibly related to my resume of >>>>>> when I finished High School. Not a single thing - no matter how he >>>>>> tried to justify it. He can't justify "filling in any gaps" as High >>>>>> School was before my five year history on my resume. I did leave IBM >>>>>> to finish a degree at University - that is unusual - and would show a >>>>>> work gap until someone reviewed it. I can easily answer that question >>>>>> and explain. However, he didn't seem interested -- only when I >>>>>> graduated High School. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I personally have no issue with my age as I'm currently in my >>>>>> programming prime. But, I refused to answer out of principle -- like >>>>>> when someone tries to ask race when they shouldn't. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regardless, I'm reeling from the conversation and am thinking of >>>>>> any type of legal sanctions that I could ask for. I need to calm down >>>>>> before I take this too seriously, but I am seriously considering what >>>>>> can be done as it was so blatant and so unapologetic. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Glen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Glen Jarvis >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> So, my experience is that those resumes are >>>>>> not tossed automatically. >>>>>> However, they must be related to the job in >>>>>> question. I found that the >>>>>> quality of the programmer does not decline >>>>>> with age, even well past >>>>>> retirement age -- especially if that person is >>>>>> proactive and stays current >>>>>> in their field. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me give a specific case. There are 4 applicants >>>>>> for an ENTRY LEVEL Django Python Web job. None of the >>>>>> applicants have any experience in Python Django. Two >>>>>> are just graduating from TopNotchU with Computer >>>>>> Science degrees and two have twenty years experience >>>>>> as programmers in a variety of areas, but none of it >>>>>> with Web applications, and they have made it clear on >>>>>> their cover letter that they will take a pay cut if >>>>>> necessary to meet the salary range of the job. >>>>>> >>>>>> How many hiring managers will consider all four >>>>>> applicants equally? >>>>>> >>>>>> Rob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My personal experience is that they are all considered >>>>>> equally. If it were me, I would consider them all equally. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree that ageism exists, unfortunately, and you will find >>>>>> cases where some people will not treat those individuals >>>>>> equally. That's not generally my experience, however. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmest Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Glen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which >>>>>> matter least. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Goethe >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Baypiggies mailing list >>>>>> Baypiggies at python.org >>>>>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter >>> least. >>> >>> -- Goethe >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Baypiggies mailing list >>> Baypiggies at python.org >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> *Lumen Sivitz* >> *Junior Partner* >> >> *VonChurch**, Inc.* >> >> *Phone: (415)229-7699 >> **LSivitz at VonChurch.com** * >> *www.VonChurch.com* >> >> *Work Hard | Play Harder* > >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From keith at dart.us.com Wed Feb 2 01:14:58 2011 From: keith at dart.us.com (Keith Dart) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 16:14:58 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> Message-ID: <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> === On Tue, 02/01, Jesse Gough wrote: === > They > wanted me to authorize a highly invasive background check for a > development job. This included giving them the right to interview > neighbors and friends, check my driving record, credit history, === Was it a government job? Some government jobs that require having access to sensitive information would require that. It's not illegal if it is a job requirement. Background checks for security clearances do that, and more. I even had to take a lie-detector test as part of one. It is not considered mandatory, but if you refuse you simply don't get the clearances and the job that needs them. -- Keith Dart -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Keith Dart ===================================================================== From hasan.diwan at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 01:52:12 2011 From: hasan.diwan at gmail.com (Hasan Diwan) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 16:52:12 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: I have had some interesting questions over the years. One of the best was a recruiter who asked me "Are you Muslim?" I responded with "What relevance does that have to the job function?", "None", "Good to hear, in that case, may I have your next question, please?" On 1 February 2011 16:14, Keith Dart wrote: > === On Tue, 02/01, Jesse Gough wrote: === >> They >> wanted me to authorize a highly invasive background check for a >> development job. This included giving them the right to interview >> neighbors and friends, check my driving record, credit history, > === > > Was it a government job? Some government jobs that require having > access to sensitive information would require that. It's not illegal if > it is a job requirement. Background checks for security clearances do > that, and more. I even had to take a lie-detector test as part of one. > It is not considered mandatory, but if you refuse you simply don't get > the clearances and the job that needs them. > > > -- Keith Dart > > > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ? Keith Dart > ? ===================================================================== > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Sent from my mobile device Envoyait de mon telephone mobil From daniel at djansoft.com Wed Feb 2 02:54:09 2011 From: daniel at djansoft.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Daniel_Gonz=E1lez_Gasull?=) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 17:54:09 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: I also wonder why a lot job applications ask for your street address. I don't want to give my street address to a stranger before I'm working there. City, state and even zipcode is fine with me, but not full address. By the way, where I come from (Spain) almost everybody writes the date of birth and also usually their married status in their resume. I was actually pleasantly surprised when I realized nobody in the US does that and is actually forbidden to ask that information in a job application. On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Hasan Diwan wrote: > I have had some interesting questions over the years. One of the best > was a recruiter who asked me "Are you Muslim?" I responded with "What > relevance does that have to the job function?", "None", "Good to hear, > in that case, may I have your next question, please?" > > On 1 February 2011 16:14, Keith Dart wrote: >> === On Tue, 02/01, Jesse Gough wrote: === >>> They >>> wanted me to authorize a highly invasive background check for a >>> development job. This included giving them the right to interview >>> neighbors and friends, check my driving record, credit history, >> === >> >> Was it a government job? Some government jobs that require having >> access to sensitive information would require that. It's not illegal if >> it is a job requirement. Background checks for security clearances do >> that, and more. I even had to take a lie-detector test as part of one. >> It is not considered mandatory, but if you refuse you simply don't get >> the clearances and the job that needs them. >> >> >> -- Keith Dart >> >> >> >> -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> ? Keith Dart >> ? ===================================================================== >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > > -- > Sent from my mobile device > Envoyait de mon telephone mobil > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From venkat83 at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 05:16:58 2011 From: venkat83 at gmail.com (Venkatraman S) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 09:46:58 +0530 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: 2011/2/2 Daniel Gonz?lez Gasull > By the way, where I come from (Spain) almost everybody writes the date > of birth and also usually their married status in their resume. I was > actually pleasantly surprised when I realized nobody in the US does > that and is actually forbidden to ask that information in a job > application. > Same is the case in India. Almost every applicant is supposed to furnish his/hers complete personal details. But most Indians, do not care much about it. I have a personal way of putting things when people talk about security on the Net : The very 'aspect' of 'security' vanishes once you get online. You can 'always' be tracked.(scary!) Same is the case in any country. All your personal details are anwayz with the Govt. Hence, sometimes the Indian's way is nice, because you do not care about it and hence avoid the headache. You will be surprised how Indians do not care much about Privacy - both on the Net and the off of it. Only things that are personal are the bank information! I think this has more to do with societal structures. I find my American pals supporting personal privacy very much, which is almost non-existant in other societal structures. This has got to do with 'culture', and hence recruiters(and others) *should* respect it. Thanks for the great discussion :) -V -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at djansoft.com Wed Feb 2 05:34:54 2011 From: daniel at djansoft.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Daniel_Gonz=E1lez_Gasull?=) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 20:34:54 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: And I forgot to say that the main Spanish job boards ask for your Govt ID number (DNI number, or Documento Nacional de Identidad, equivalent to your California driver's license number or your SSN) and it's a mandatory field. If you don't fill it, you cannot search for a job. About being tracked online, search for "tor project". If you are Bin Laden the Government will sure track you anyway even with Tor through statistical analysis of the network, but otherwise you're safe. Interesting thread, indeed. On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 8:16 PM, Venkatraman S wrote: > > 2011/2/2 Daniel Gonz?lez Gasull >> >> By the way, where I come from (Spain) almost everybody writes the date >> of birth and also usually their married status in their resume. ?I was >> actually pleasantly surprised when I realized nobody in the US does >> that and is actually forbidden to ask that information in a job >> application. > > Same is the case in India. Almost every applicant is supposed to furnish > his/hers complete personal details. But most Indians, do not care much about > it. > > I have a personal way of putting things when people talk about security on > the Net : > The very 'aspect' of 'security' vanishes once you get online. You can > 'always' be tracked.(scary!) > Same is the case in any country. All your personal details are anwayz with > the Govt. > Hence, sometimes the Indian's way is nice, because you do not care about it > and hence > avoid the headache. You will be surprised how Indians do not care much about > Privacy - both > on the Net and the off of it. Only things that are personal are the bank > information! > > I think this has more to do with societal structures. I find my American > pals > supporting personal privacy very much, which is almost non-existant in other > societal structures. This has got to do with 'culture', and hence > recruiters(and others) > *should* respect it. > > Thanks for the great discussion :) > > -V > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From venkat83 at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 05:45:37 2011 From: venkat83 at gmail.com (Venkatraman S) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:15:37 +0530 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: 2011/2/2 Daniel Gonz?lez Gasull > And I forgot to say that the main Spanish job boards ask for your Govt > ID number (DNI number, or Documento Nacional de Identidad, equivalent > to your California driver's license number or your SSN) and it's a > mandatory field. If you don't fill it, you cannot search for a job. > The Unique Identity project in India is one of the BIGGEST exercises in the world as of now. So, we are coming close :) On a different note, the idea of a 'global village' that was present during the 80s and the 90s has vanished completely. I sometimes, wish there was no VISA and people could easily move across countries and learn more and try to 'evolve'; but i know i am asking for too much! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 06:45:51 2011 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:45:51 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: > 2011/2/2 Daniel Gonz?lez Gasull > >> By the way, where I come from (Spain) almost everybody writes the date >> of birth and also usually their married status in their resume. I was >> actually pleasantly surprised when I realized nobody in the US does >> that and is actually forbidden to ask that information in a job >> application. >> > > Same is the case in India. Almost every applicant is supposed to furnish > his/hers complete personal details. But most Indians, do not care much > about > it. Same in Hong Kong. Is is trendy/customary to put a picture on your resume. It is probably a no-no is US. I think US has a strong egalitarian and anti-discriminatory culture, which is great. On the other hand it is also very litigious, which is not so great. What is basic person info in other culture is considered taboo in US and people go a great length to obfuscate it. I think the tech industry is a great place to be in terms of inclusiveness. Many companies put diversity into their HR policy and I can see a lot of evidence in practice. Also base on my experience, meritocracy reign in hiring. I think such culture is a better mean to attain inclusiveness than legal means. Same for computer language. I prefer a language that makes it easy to do the right thing rather than tries to protect you from making mistakes but also make doing anything at all difficult. Just my humble opinion. Wai Yip From roderick at sanfransystems.com Wed Feb 2 07:50:26 2011 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 22:50:26 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] One amusing job story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D48FEB2.3050607@sanfransystems.com> Many years ago, I talked to a company which made software systems for police and fire departments. The guy told me that the actual inside employees within these departments with whom I would be working were typically officers who were too violent on the street, so they got assigned desk jobs; thus they were the ones the developers like me would get to work with. During the interview, the guy looked at me rather sharply, and said "by the way, if you think these guys [the cops and firemen] don't like blacks, you're right, but you should know that they hate gays above all". I got the message loud and clear. He was telling me that if I happened to be gay (I am!) don't bother applying for this job. He was I think giving me useful information; he wasn't necessarily telling me that the employer would discriminate, but that the clients (cops & firemen) would not work well with certain types of people. I've since seen this kind of message even in printed job postings, such as "must like snowboarding" (not from a board company), "we play loud alternative rock music 24-7" (not from a music company), "must have a fast trigger finger in half-life or halo" (not from a gaming company). I tried applying anyway to these firms, of course, I never heard back. To those who mentioned that in their countries of origin, it is routine to give certain personal data: I think that cultural framework is important. Since giving age is not standard here and it may be illegal in certain cases to even ask it, someone like Glen is right to react strongly. Asking it is certainly evidence that the firm intends to discriminate on that basis. In a culture where everybody routinely is asked and gives that info, it may mean much less. If someone asked me my religion in an interview, I'd probably say something like "I believe in a God who sends people to hell who ask my religion". Of course I wouldn't get the job! But I wouldn't want it anyway. Roderick Llewellyn From ashish.makani at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 08:21:43 2011 From: ashish.makani at gmail.com (ashish makani) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 23:21:43 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: I can relate to your feelings Glen I think venting it out, has fostered a healthy discussion & hopefully, the interviewer in question has learnt his lesson. I think it's very brave of you to share this story & made us all aware of our rights & duties, as technology professionals. I have a romantic ideal notion that all fields should be meritocratic....where your knowledge is the most important critrion....not age, gender, formal degree, religion, national origin,political or other connections(called "approach" in india), or any other factor which does not affect your ability. I am happy to see it in action today. cheers ashish On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Tung Wai Yip wrote: > 2011/2/2 Daniel Gonz?lez Gasull >> >> By the way, where I come from (Spain) almost everybody writes the date >>> of birth and also usually their married status in their resume. I was >>> actually pleasantly surprised when I realized nobody in the US does >>> that and is actually forbidden to ask that information in a job >>> application. >>> >>> >> Same is the case in India. Almost every applicant is supposed to furnish >> his/hers complete personal details. But most Indians, do not care much >> about >> it. >> > > > Same in Hong Kong. Is is trendy/customary to put a picture on your resume. > It is probably a no-no is US. I think US has a strong egalitarian and > anti-discriminatory culture, which is great. On the other hand it is also > very litigious, which is not so great. What is basic person info in other > culture is considered taboo in US and people go a great length to obfuscate > it. > > I think the tech industry is a great place to be in terms of inclusiveness. > Many companies put diversity into their HR policy and I can see a lot of > evidence in practice. Also base on my experience, meritocracy reign in > hiring. I think such culture is a better mean to attain inclusiveness than > legal means. Same for computer language. I prefer a language that makes it > easy to do the right thing rather than tries to protect you from making > mistakes but also make doing anything at all difficult. > > Just my humble opinion. > > Wai Yip > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From venkat83 at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 08:45:23 2011 From: venkat83 at gmail.com (Venkatraman S) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 13:15:23 +0530 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:51 PM, ashish makani wrote: > > I think it's very brave of you to share this story & made us all aware of > our rights & duties, as technology professionals. > I have a romantic ideal notion that all fields should be > meritocratic....where your knowledge is the most important critrion....not > age, gender, formal degree, religion, national origin,political or other > connections(called "approach" in india), or any other factor which does not > affect your ability. > I am happy to see it in action today. > > Just to add to that : in India, i am not sure how many of you know, casteism is BIG in certain state(s) in India. I hail from a state called Tamilnadu - which produces one of the largest number of best engineering students in the country, the state is numero uno in almost all aspects; but suffers from ONE BIG problem - caste based politics; and this has repurcussions on everything, including education. 70% of the seats are reserved for the so called 'underprivileged' and the remaining 30% are in 'open' category - so the so called underprivileged can apply for the 30% of the seats(i can go on and on, on how this is detrimental). You will hear tales of information from people who have extremely intelligent and got the required marked, but did not get a good school just because of this reservation system. I tried explaining to my American pal, but he wasnt able to understand how it worked; and i guess penning it in an email is of no use either. India needs to avoid this caste based politics for it to succeed. Read this book called "Falling Over Backwards: An essay against Reservations and against Judicial populism" by Arun Shourie. The world needs guys like him, but he is often pushed in the backseat. -V -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hasan.diwan at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 09:26:43 2011 From: hasan.diwan at gmail.com (Hasan Diwan) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 00:26:43 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: Gents (and ladies, if we have any), we all have our shortcomings, whether it's caste, ethnic background, religion, or whatever. We all have succeeded (to one extent or another), despite them. Was I able to achieve as much as I could in a "purely meritocratic industry"? Probably not, but I have achieved one hell of a lot in spite of an Arabic name. -- Sent from my mobile device Envoyait de mon telephone mobil From lac at openend.se Wed Feb 2 15:24:19 2011 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 15:24:19 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Hello Bay Piggies, interested in a PyPy talk? In-Reply-To: Message from Tony Cappellini of "Tue, 25 Jan 2011 17:03:01 PST." References: <201101252214.p0PMEC8h012180@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <201102021424.p12EOJEG025796@theraft.openend.se> I wanted to let everybody know that Armin's talk at Stanford will be open to the public. It's on March the 2nd at 4:15. See: http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ There will be a Google tech talk on the 7th at 11:30 at the Googleplex. I do not know as of yet whether this talk will be open to the public. Thank you, Laura Creighton From python at dylanreinhardt.com Wed Feb 2 15:30:27 2011 From: python at dylanreinhardt.com (Dylan Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 06:30:27 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Agism Etc. In-Reply-To: <4D489718.6010901@sanfransystems.com> References: <4D489718.6010901@sanfransystems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Roderick Llewellyn < roderick at sanfransystems.com> wrote: > > 1. You probably have no legal case. > I agree that there is almost no point of bringing a civil suit in a situation like this. However, if you are over 40, age discrimination is a matter of federal law: http://eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm You have at least 180 days to file charges, if you believe that is warranted: http://eeoc.gov/employees/howtofile.cfm As an aside, how hilarious is it that federal age discrimination law only benefits people of a particular age? Anyway... HTH, Dylan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Feb 2 15:48:55 2011 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 09:48:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Baypiggies] REMINDER: OSCON Call for Proposals (deadline 2/7) Message-ID: <20110202144855.B9AF932608@mailbackend.panix.com> DEADLINE Monday February 7 OSCON (O'Reilly Open Source Convention), the premier Open Source gathering, will be held in Portland, OR July 25-29. We're looking for people to deliver tutorials and shorter presentations. http://www.oscon.com/oscon2011 http://www.oscon.com/oscon2011/public/cfp/144 Hope to see you there! -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection." --Butler Lampson From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Feb 2 15:57:33 2011 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 06:57:33 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: <20110202145732.GB18276@panix.com> On Wed, Feb 02, 2011, Hasan Diwan wrote: > > Gents (and ladies, if we have any), we all have our shortcomings, > whether it's caste, ethnic background, religion, or whatever. We all > have succeeded (to one extent or another), despite them. Was I able to > achieve as much as I could in a "purely meritocratic industry"? > Probably not, but I have achieved one hell of a lot in spite of an > Arabic name. While we're discussing diversity and given that we probably have a number of non-US people, I'll just mention that for many people "gents and ladies" does not cover all adult humans. Because of the history behind "lady" many women refuse to call themselves that (and some will get downright annoyed when labeled as such). Side note: yes, there are a number of women in BayPIGgies -- in fact, BayPIGgies was started by a woman (Deirdre Saoirse Moen). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection." --Butler Lampson From adam at hupp.org Wed Feb 2 18:41:29 2011 From: adam at hupp.org (Adam Hupp) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 09:41:29 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > ?? ?However, I don't think I've ever seen a more blatant violation of ageism > today. I had a phone screening with someone who, believe it or not, came > from the BayPIGgies list. They asked me?blatantly?"When did you finish High > School." Have you been speaking to a recruiter at this company, or do you have a contact in HR? I think the best thing for you to do is let them know what happened. Most companies would be horrified to know this happened and would appreciate hearing about it so they can re-educate the offending interviewer. -- Adam Hupp | http://hupp.org/adam/ From alexandre.conrad at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 18:49:14 2011 From: alexandre.conrad at gmail.com (Alexandre Conrad) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 09:49:14 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Pyramid 1.0 Message-ID: Hey all, For those interested in web development, a new web framework called Pyramid was recently released as version 1.0 stable. Pyramid is a merger project between the repoze.bfg and the Pylons web frameworks, which also means a great community boost for Pyramid as devs and users from both communities "merged" as well. Pylons and BFG are now considered legacy apps and all new development efforts are now focused on Pyramid. As you will see, Pyramid's documentation is pretty amazing. http://pylonsproject.org/ So why a merge? Long story short, the lead developer of Pylons, Ben Bangert, started thinking about Pylons 2.0, the next Pylons version. As he was attempting rewrite Pylons' core, he found out that it eventually looked very much like the BFG framework. So Ben Banger, Chris McDonough (BFG), Mark Ramm (TurboGears 2), Paul Everitt and Chris Rossi (Zope/Plone devs) gathered to talk about a Pylons + BFG merge. And Pyramid was born. Full story: https://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss/browse_thread/thread/97faa18a3429a28e http://docs.pylonsproject.org/faq/pylonsproject.html#why-not-just-continue-developing-the-pylons-1-0-code-base -- Alex | twitter.com/alexconrad From pindiproli at nutanix.com Wed Feb 2 19:35:21 2011 From: pindiproli at nutanix.com (Ravi Pindiproli) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:35:21 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Contract role - Python expert - Santa Clara Message-ID: <001c01cbc307$f396ba00$dac42e00$@com> Hello Everybody (again), We are a stealth mode startup working on a Virtualization appliance for next generation cloud computing. We are seeking a Python expert for a short term contract to begin with. Bay area local candidates only - we are in Santa Clara. Nutanix has distributed systems professionals on our team who were part of the handful of people that built Google File System. Our Founders, having worked in organizations such as Oracle, Google as well as young startups like Aster Data Systems, are well rounded experienced Silicon Valley entrepreneurs. We have also raised a record Series A funding of $13 million from Lightspeed Ventures. Currently Nutanix has 20 employees. Strong preference for someone with recent experience on building a system monitoring tool using Python + HTML or at the minimum tools built for enterprise customers. Below are the skills we are seeking. Python (Required) Knowledge of overall Windows system (Required) Powershell (Required) HTML skills(preferred) Contract beginning length is 2 months Please respond to me directly at pindiproli at nutanix.com Ravi Pindiproli Nutanix -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anfrind at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 20:18:50 2011 From: anfrind at gmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 11:18:50 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] How to determine what unit tests cover a code change? Message-ID: I work on a project with thousands of unit tests, implemented using the built-in "unittest" module, and it takes about five hours to run the full suite. If I know which source files changed since I last ran the unit tests, does anyone know of a good way to determine which unit tests cover those source files and only run those? The individual test cases are spread across about 150 subclasses of TestCase, some of which define dozens of test methods, and for the most part each class is in its own module (there are a few cases where two subclasses of TestCase are in the same module, e.g. if one derives from the other and changes something about how the tests run). My best idea thus far is to use the "inspect" module to look at what each test module imports and figure out if a changed file gets imported at any point. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's an existing tool that does that, or if there's a better way that I haven't thought of. Thanks. -- Lincoln Peters From mamin at mbasciences.com Wed Feb 2 21:17:07 2011 From: mamin at mbasciences.com (Minesh B. Amin) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:17:07 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] How to determine what unit tests cover a code change? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1296677828.23812.26.camel@lusaka> Hi Lincoln, Let me preface what follows by stating that, when it comes to "optimizing" how testing is done, any solution must produce no false positives, and no false negatives. Otherwise, the "optimizing" part would be self-defeating. To gather the most accurate snapshot of the actual dependencies (that includes both python and non-python data/text/script files): + each unittest must be run in a stand-alone session ... the goal is to force each unittest to import whatever it wants; + invoke each session as: strace -f -e trace=open python .py and post-process the output produced Couple of issues to keep in mind: + strace may produce relative paths which would need to be resolved; + in case this flow is too resource intensive (in terms of CPU time), you may want to bundle the unittests according to some criteria. Cheers! Minesh On Wed, 2011-02-02 at 11:18 -0800, Lincoln Peters wrote: > I work on a project with thousands of unit tests, implemented using > the built-in "unittest" module, and it takes about five hours to run > the full suite. If I know which source files changed since I last ran > the unit tests, does anyone know of a good way to determine which unit > tests cover those source files and only run those? From janssen at parc.com Wed Feb 2 21:57:47 2011 From: janssen at parc.com (Bill Janssen) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 12:57:47 PST Subject: [Baypiggies] How to determine what unit tests cover a code change? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95395.1296680267@parc.com> Lincoln Peters wrote: > My best idea thus far is to use the "inspect" module to look at what each > test module imports and figure out if a changed file gets imported at > any point. Don't forget that "python -v" will print imports as they happen. Bill From dirk at otisbean.com Wed Feb 2 22:41:40 2011 From: dirk at otisbean.com (Dirk Bergstrom) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 13:41:40 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] How to determine what unit tests cover a code change? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D49CF94.50603@otisbean.com> On 02/02/2011 11:18 AM, Lincoln Peters wrote: > I know which source files changed since I last ran > the unit tests, does anyone know of a good way to determine which unit > tests cover those source files and only run those? What you're looking for is very similar to what code coverage tools give you, except sort of backwards. Have a look at coverage.py and figleaf, perhaps one of them does what you want, or can be tricked into doing it: http://nedbatchelder.com/code/coverage/ http://darcs.idyll.org/~t/projects/figleaf/doc/ -- Dirk Bergstrom dirk at otisbean.com http://otisbean.com/ From anfrind at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 01:19:16 2011 From: anfrind at gmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 16:19:16 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] How to determine what unit tests cover a code change? In-Reply-To: <1296677828.23812.26.camel@lusaka> References: <1296677828.23812.26.camel@lusaka> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Minesh B. Amin wrote: > Let me preface what follows by stating that, when it comes to > "optimizing" how testing is done, any solution must produce no > false positives, and no false negatives. Otherwise, the "optimizing" > part would be self-defeating. What I eventually want to do is set up a continuous integration system so that the appropriate subset of unit tests is run immediately after each code change, and the full suite is run on a less frequent interval (maybe once per day). > > To gather the most accurate snapshot of the actual dependencies > (that includes both python and non-python data/text/script files): > + each unittest must be run in a stand-alone session ... the > goal is to force each unittest to import whatever it wants; > + invoke each session as: > strace -f -e trace=open python .py > and post-process the output produced > > Couple of issues to keep in mind: > + strace may produce relative paths which would need to be > resolved; > + in case this flow is too resource intensive (in terms of CPU time), > you may want to bundle the unittests according to some criteria. So maybe what I want to do is write a script that would: 1. Build up a list of the shell commands I'd need to execute each test (or load the test and then immediately exit?), one at a time. 2. Run each test under strace, capturing the output. 3. Parse the output for any opened objects in the project, or that are built from objects in the project (tricky to map, but might be especially useful if I want to extend this to compiled C and/or C++ code). 4. Save the mapping between tests and objects in a form that I can call on when running tests, at least until the mapping changes. That seems like it would work. -- Lincoln Peters From mamin at mbasciences.com Thu Feb 3 02:24:36 2011 From: mamin at mbasciences.com (Minesh B. Amin) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:24:36 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] How to determine what unit tests cover a code change? In-Reply-To: References: <1296677828.23812.26.camel@lusaka> Message-ID: <1296696276.25671.43.camel@lusaka> Bill and Dirk make valid points. However, given the scale of your test suite and the fact that it takes 5 hours to run seems to imply you have a lot of moving parts. I am not sure how difficult it would be to ensure that everything is written in Python, and that "-v" captures the sourcing of all files (hence my comment of capturing all dependencies, *.py, text, data, other scripts, etc etc). Now, in terms of parsing the output of "strace", be sure to redirect output of your unittest to something else ... like strace -f -e trace=open \ /bin/sh -c \ "python unittest.py \ 2>unittest.stderr \ 1>unittest.stdout" \ 2>unittest.strace ^^^^^^^^^A^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^B^^^^^^^^ A => stderr from just strace B => stderr,stdout from "python ..." This way, parsing output of strace should be much more manageable. Finally, armed with the dependencies, a build system like SCons or Avery Pennarun's "redo" can be tricked into skipping over tests for which dependencies have not changed. At the end of the day, blow away all the computed dependencies, run all tests using strace, and recompute the dependencies. Regards, Minesh On Wed, 2011-02-02 at 16:19 -0800, Lincoln Peters wrote: > > What I eventually want to do is set up a continuous integration system > so that the appropriate subset of unit tests is run immediately after > each code change, and the full suite is run on a less frequent > interval (maybe once per day). From dbrusiee at comcast.net Thu Feb 3 03:30:44 2011 From: dbrusiee at comcast.net (David Brusiee) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 18:30:44 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python user rights? Message-ID: <014c01cbc34a$5c4a98e0$14dfcaa0$@net> I really hate to send this email to a distribution list but I need some advice regarding older versions of Python software. I have version 2.6.6 running fine on one PC. But when I installed it on another PC I have no "rights" to run it. I can't even delete the software. The user account on this PC has full administrator rights. Any thoughts on this would be most appreciated. Thanks /DaveB PS: Both PCs are running Windows Vista with all of the updates. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nstinemates at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 04:08:17 2011 From: nstinemates at gmail.com (Nick Stinemates) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 19:08:17 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] How to determine what unit tests cover a code change? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How are dependencies being managed? Are you using mocks? Fixtures? Even for thousands of tests, it feels like it's taking way too long. As a counterpoint, our software has tens of thousands of tests and we can build the entire solution in less than an hour. Nick On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Lincoln Peters wrote: > I work on a project with thousands of unit tests, implemented using > the built-in "unittest" module, and it takes about five hours to run > the full suite. If I know which source files changed since I last ran > the unit tests, does anyone know of a good way to determine which unit > tests cover those source files and only run those? > > The individual test cases are spread across about 150 subclasses of > TestCase, some of which define dozens of test methods, and for the > most part each class is in its own module (there are a few cases where > two subclasses of TestCase are in the same module, e.g. if one derives > from the other and changes something about how the tests run). My > best idea thus far is to use the "inspect" module to look at what each > test module imports and figure out if a changed file gets imported at > any point. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's an existing > tool that does that, or if there's a better way that I haven't thought > of. > > > Thanks. > > > -- > Lincoln Peters > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c1 at caseyc.net Thu Feb 3 05:00:13 2011 From: c1 at caseyc.net (Casey Callendrello) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 20:00:13 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] How to determine what unit tests cover a code change? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4A284D.6000600@caseyc.net> Lincoln, I don't know of an existing tool, but I bet you can pretty simply approximate what you want with the 'parser' python library. Specifically, you can detect all 'import' statements and create a dependency digraph without a lot of effort. The granularity of this isn't perfect (it overshoots) but it will probably help a lot given the time it takes your tests to run. Thoughts? --Casey If you keep it at that level of granularity, On 2/2/11 11:18 AM, Lincoln Peters wrote: > I work on a project with thousands of unit tests, implemented using > the built-in "unittest" module, and it takes about five hours to run > the full suite. If I know which source files changed since I last ran > the unit tests, does anyone know of a good way to determine which unit > tests cover those source files and only run those? > > The individual test cases are spread across about 150 subclasses of > TestCase, some of which define dozens of test methods, and for the > most part each class is in its own module (there are a few cases where > two subclasses of TestCase are in the same module, e.g. if one derives > from the other and changes something about how the tests run). My > best idea thus far is to use the "inspect" module to look at what each > test module imports and figure out if a changed file gets imported at > any point. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's an existing > tool that does that, or if there's a better way that I haven't thought > of. > > > Thanks. > > From anfrind at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 05:33:06 2011 From: anfrind at gmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 20:33:06 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] How to determine what unit tests cover a code change? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Nick Stinemates wrote: > How are dependencies being managed? Are you using mocks? ?Fixtures? > Even for thousands of tests, it feels like it's taking way too long.?As a > counterpoint, our software has tens of thousands of tests and we can build > the entire solution in less than an hour. Some of our tests are using mocks and/or fixtures, but most of them aren't. And in many cases, the tests are bringing up the entire application when they set up, and stopping it when they tear down. As you might imagine, there's a huge difference in speed between the tests that use mocks and/or fixtures and the tests that don't. Unfortunately, we don't have the time or money to fix up all the unit tests to use them. -- Lincoln Peters From lac at openend.se Thu Feb 3 13:43:27 2011 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 13:43:27 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Hello Bay Piggies, interested in a PyPy talk? In-Reply-To: Message from jim of "Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:54:56 PST." <1295999696.1816.65.camel@jim-laptop> References: <201101252214.p0PMEC8h012180@theraft.openend.se> <1295999696.1816.65.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <201102031243.p13ChRxs018333@theraft.openend.se> In a message of Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:54:56 PST, jim writes: > >noisebridge is a possibility: > 2169 mission street between 17th and 18th in >san francisco. > it's a 5000 square foot space on the third floor >that has a variety of sub-spaces, including two >classroom areas that can accommodate over a dozen >people, maybe as many as twenty in the more open >classroom. > there's no particular rental, but there's an >expectation of some kind of contribution toward >the cost of keeping the place going. > the events on the main page are a fairly up to >date list you can use to see if there's a day and >time that suits you. if you don't see such, ask >and maybe i or someone else knows of something that >will help. >http://www.noisebridge.net This sounds very good. How do we book space for Saturday the 5th and Sunday the 6th of March? Right now we cannot tell how many people would be interested in attending, but if the past is any indication, somewhere between 4 and a dozen should show up. We'd be happy to make a contribution for electricity, etc. What do you need from me to make this happen, and to make this show up in your calendars? Thanks very much for the offer, Laura Creighton From jim at systemateka.com Thu Feb 3 17:46:55 2011 From: jim at systemateka.com (jim) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 08:46:55 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Hello Bay Piggies, interested in a PyPy talk? In-Reply-To: <201102031243.p13ChRxs018333@theraft.openend.se> References: <201101252214.p0PMEC8h012180@theraft.openend.se> <1295999696.1816.65.camel@jim-laptop> <201102031243.p13ChRxs018333@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <1296751615.1770.10.camel@jim-laptop> one way or another you make a bid for the use of the space. remember you don't have to, you can just show up and hope for the best. assuming you want to stake a claim, the result should be notice on the noisebridge.net wiki page (the front page in the events section). bring up the page and edit it yourself or tell someone who's active with noisebridge (e.g. me) the date and number of expected people and nature of the event and ask them to post to the wiki page for you (probably that person will know better than you what resources exist and are free). lemme know whether you'll post the event or want someone (e.g. me) to do it for you. On Thu, 2011-02-03 at 13:43 +0100, Laura Creighton wrote: > In a message of Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:54:56 PST, jim writes: > > > >noisebridge is a possibility: > > 2169 mission street between 17th and 18th in > >san francisco. > > it's a 5000 square foot space on the third floor > >that has a variety of sub-spaces, including two > >classroom areas that can accommodate over a dozen > >people, maybe as many as twenty in the more open > >classroom. > > there's no particular rental, but there's an > >expectation of some kind of contribution toward > >the cost of keeping the place going. > > the events on the main page are a fairly up to > >date list you can use to see if there's a day and > >time that suits you. if you don't see such, ask > >and maybe i or someone else knows of something that > >will help. > >http://www.noisebridge.net > > This sounds very good. How do we book space for > Saturday the 5th and Sunday the 6th of March? Right now > we cannot tell how many people would be interested in > attending, but if the past is any indication, somewhere > between 4 and a dozen should show up. > > We'd be happy to make a contribution for electricity, > etc. > > What do you need from me to make this happen, and to make > this show up in your calendars? > > Thanks very much for the offer, > Laura Creighton > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From mal at egenix.com Thu Feb 3 18:01:37 2011 From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 18:01:37 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python brochure: ILM contacts ? Message-ID: <4D4ADF71.5080404@egenix.com> Dear Pythoneers, a team at the PSF is currently working on creating a professional quality printed Python brochure and we're looking for eye-catching show cases to present the usefulness of Python in many different industries. For the movie and entertainment industry, we are looking at ILM as one show case and found Tim Fortenberry as possible contact at ILM: http://www.siggraph.org/programs/archive/reports/conference/2005/interviews/tim-fortenberry Does anyone know him or have other contacts to ILM ? It would be great, if we could get in touch with them for more background information. If you know of other interesting projects using Python, we'd love to hear about them as well ! Thanks, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Feb 03 2011) >>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ ::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! :::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ From lac at openend.se Thu Feb 3 19:13:39 2011 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 19:13:39 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Hello Bay Piggies, interested in a PyPy talk? In-Reply-To: Message from jim of "Thu, 03 Feb 2011 08:46:55 PST." <1296751615.1770.10.camel@jim-laptop> References: <201101252214.p0PMEC8h012180@theraft.openend.se> <1295999696.1816.65.camel@jim-laptop> <201102031243.p13ChRxs018333@theraft.openend.se> <1296751615.1770.10.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <201102031813.p13IDd5B021566@theraft.openend.se> In a message of Thu, 03 Feb 2011 08:46:55 PST, jim writes: > > one way or another you make a bid for the use >of the space. remember you don't have to, you can >just show up and hope for the best. > assuming you want to stake a claim, the result >should be notice on the noisebridge.net wiki page >(the front page in the events section). > bring up the page and edit it yourself or >tell someone who's active with noisebridge (e.g. >me) the date and number of expected people and >nature of the event and ask them to post to the >wiki page for you (probably that person will >know better than you what resources exist and >are free). > lemme know whether you'll post the event or >want someone (e.g. me) to do it for you. I'd like you to post it. what it is is a mini sprint. I will have text for you by tomorrow. I'm going to give a talk about PyPy at yelp on Thursday, and they think that more than 40 people will come, and I am going to invite all who wish to, to come over the weekend. Ditto for Armin's stanford talk. So we really don't know whom will show up, but we can guess, 6-12. Thank you for all your help, Laura From jim at systemateka.com Thu Feb 3 19:26:42 2011 From: jim at systemateka.com (jim) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 10:26:42 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Hello Bay Piggies, interested in a PyPy talk? In-Reply-To: <201102031813.p13IDd5B021566@theraft.openend.se> References: <201101252214.p0PMEC8h012180@theraft.openend.se> <1295999696.1816.65.camel@jim-laptop> <201102031243.p13ChRxs018333@theraft.openend.se> <1296751615.1770.10.camel@jim-laptop> <201102031813.p13IDd5B021566@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <1296757602.1770.78.camel@jim-laptop> okay. i'll do nothing until you send me an email that is more or less: * with a subject that says Please Post This Event (doesn't have to say "please"). * body of message with the event name, one or two paragraphs describing the nature of the event (to be copied to the event list, make it as brief as you can), days and times the event is to take place. * also in the body of the message, information for me to know: what resources do you expect to need, e.g. chairs, whiteboard, tables.... as part of your contribution, consider bringing a couple of nice, new whiteboard erasers along with a bottle of whiteboard cleaning solution. On Thu, 2011-02-03 at 19:13 +0100, Laura Creighton wrote: > In a message of Thu, 03 Feb 2011 08:46:55 PST, jim writes: > > > > one way or another you make a bid for the use > >of the space. remember you don't have to, you can > >just show up and hope for the best. > > assuming you want to stake a claim, the result > >should be notice on the noisebridge.net wiki page > >(the front page in the events section). > > bring up the page and edit it yourself or > >tell someone who's active with noisebridge (e.g. > >me) the date and number of expected people and > >nature of the event and ask them to post to the > >wiki page for you (probably that person will > >know better than you what resources exist and > >are free). > > lemme know whether you'll post the event or > >want someone (e.g. me) to do it for you. > > I'd like you to post it. what it is is a mini sprint. I > will have text for you by tomorrow. I'm going to give a > talk about PyPy at yelp on Thursday, and they think that > more than 40 people will come, and I am going to invite > all who wish to, to come over the weekend. Ditto for Armin's > stanford talk. So we really don't know whom will show up, but > we can guess, 6-12. > > Thank you for all your help, > Laura From bob at eventbrite.com Sat Feb 5 01:30:20 2011 From: bob at eventbrite.com (Bob Van Zant) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:30:20 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Senior Web Engineer, Eventbrite, San Francisco, CA Message-ID: Eventbrite is on the hunt for experienced, professional, and highly motivated Senior Web Software Engineers to join our team. We're a python shop using Django with Mako on Ubuntu and running on Amazon's cloud platform. We are agile, we have unittests and we run them on every checkin with Hudson. The perfect candidate will have experience with at least one full web technology stack, preferably Django but we're not picky, an eye for great design and functionality, and a knack for pushing projects from conception all the way to production. If you love coding, working on cutting edge projects and technologies, and want to be part of our amazing team, we want to hear from you! **Responsibilities:** * Design and development of new product features and enhancements * Work with the product team to develop functional requirements * Start from scratch and finish with a bang * Investigate and use cutting-edge technologies * Champion design and code reviews * Help more junior developers become a rock star like you * Turn guesstimates into great estimates **Requirements:** * Experience writing top quality software for high-volume/high-availability transaction-based websites (ideally LAMP-stack) * Technical leadership experience (small teams or projects) * Strong written and verbal communication skills * Solid database experience (ideally SQL and NoSQL) * Working knowledge of front-end technologies (HTML, CSS, Ajax, Javascript) * Experience with Django or RoR a plus * Experience in an agile development environment a plus * Unit-testing know-how required, experience with TDD or BDD a plus * BS in CS or equivalent experience required To apply for this position please visit Jobvite at http://jobvite.com/m?3yno1fw4 or send email to emmag at eventbrite.com. If you have engineery questions feel free to reply directly to me. -Bob From lac at openend.se Sat Feb 5 18:13:47 2011 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 18:13:47 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Please Post This Event In-Reply-To: Message from jim of "Thu, 03 Feb 2011 08:46:55 PST." <1296751615.1770.10.camel@jim-laptop> References: <201101252214.p0PMEC8h012180@theraft.openend.se> <1295999696.1816.65.camel@jim-laptop> <201102031243.p13ChRxs018333@theraft.openend.se> <1296751615.1770.10.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <201102051713.p15HDlmm016386@theraft.openend.se> *PyPy mini-sprint* On Satuday the 5th or March, and Sunday the 6th, from 10 a.m. until whenever, there will be a PyPy mini-sprint hosted at Noisebridge. For those unfamiliar with the term Sprint -- a Sprint is a time when developers of a project get together to collaborate intensely. Sometimes the focus is to 'break the back' of some hard problem that the project faces, but in this case the focus will be on introducing people to the project in a hands-on, practical way. PyPy is the Python interpreter written in Python which you can read about here: http://morepypy.blogspot.com/ Everybody is welcome. The goal is to show off and work on whatever parts of PyPy people are interested in. Possible areas include, but are not limited to the Just-in-Time Compiler, Garbage Collectors, Stackless Python, or the Python 2.7 language compatibility. A sprint is the best way for would-be contributors to get involved with the project. Come and bring your laptop. Note: On Wednesday March the 2nd, at 16:15 Armin Rigo will be giving a talk about PyPy at the Stanford EE Computer Systems Colloquium http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/winter-schedule-20102011.html , and on Thursay March the 3rd at 18:00 he will give another public talk at Yelp, 706 Mission St 9th Floor, San Francisco, California. While attending these talks is in no way mandatory, they might be of interest to those planning on attending the Mini Sprint. We expect to have between 6 and 12 people at this Sprint, but it is possible that we will have many more. We need wireless access, electricity, chairs and tables which are set up so that we can pair-program, a whiteboard, and some flat surface where we can use a projector. We have our own projector. Thanks very much, Laura Creighton (for all of the visiting PyPyers) From cappy2112 at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 00:11:29 2011 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:11:29 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Wiley books Message-ID: Baypiggies is now working with Wiley to review their technical books. The Python-related titles are here http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/Section/id-WILEY2_SEARCH_RESULT.html?query=python a more comprehensive list of books can be found here http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/Section/id-350310.html If you are interested in reviewing their books, please email me off list. Thanks Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pindiproli at nutanix.com Mon Feb 7 23:24:57 2011 From: pindiproli at nutanix.com (Ravi Pindiproli) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 14:24:57 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Contract role - Python expert - Santa Clara Message-ID: <01bc01cbc715$db08f8b0$911aea10$@com> Hello All, I did not think that this was posted so I am reposting. Thank you. We are a stealth mode startup working on a Virtualization appliance for next generation cloud computing. We are seeking a Python expert for a short term contract to begin with. Bay area local candidates only - we are in Santa Clara. Nutanix has distributed systems professionals on our team who were part of the handful of people that built Google File System. Our Founders, having worked in organizations such as Oracle, Google as well as young startups like Aster Data Systems, are well rounded experienced Silicon Valley entrepreneurs. We have also raised a record Series A funding of $13 million from Lightspeed Ventures. Currently Nutanix has 20 employees. Strong preference for someone with recent experience on building a system monitoring tool using Python + HTML or at the minimum tools built for enterprise customers. Below are the skills we are seeking. Python (Required) Knowledge of overall Windows system - Good to have Powershell - Good to have HTML skills- Good to have Contract beginning length is 2 months Please respond to me directly at pindiproli at nutanix.com Ravi Pindiproli Nutanix -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexandre.conrad at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 23:40:12 2011 From: alexandre.conrad at gmail.com (Alexandre Conrad) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 14:40:12 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Contract role - Python expert - Santa Clara In-Reply-To: <01bc01cbc715$db08f8b0$911aea10$@com> References: <01bc01cbc715$db08f8b0$911aea10$@com> Message-ID: 2011/2/7 Ravi Pindiproli : > I did not think that this was posted so I am reposting.? Thank you. If you are unsure, you can always check in the ML archives: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2011-February/007475.html -- Alex | twitter.com/alexconrad From cappy2112 at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 16:30:19 2011 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 07:30:19 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to review "Django JavaScript Integration: AJAX and jQuery" from Packt Publications ? Message-ID: Hello Everyone, Packt Publications is looking for someone to review https://www.packtpub.com/django-javascript-integration-ajax-and-jquery/book If you're interested in reviewing this book, please reply off-list. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at ericwalstad.com Tue Feb 8 17:11:08 2011 From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:11:08 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to review "Django JavaScript Integration: AJAX and jQuery" from Packt Publications ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tony, I don't have time to review this one now but I would still love to read it. Does Packt give BayPIGgies folk a discount on books? I didn't see one on our website: http://baypiggies.net/index_html/user-group-association-program Thanks, Eric. On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > Packt Publications is looking for someone to review > https://www.packtpub.com/django-javascript-integration-ajax-and-jquery/book > > If you're interested in reviewing this book, please reply off-list. > > > Thanks From cappy2112 at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 19:29:57 2011 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:29:57 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to review "Django JavaScript Integration: AJAX and jQuery" from Packt Publications ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm inquiring now, but it may take time. Packt is very slow to respond to emails. On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Eric Walstad wrote: > Hi Tony, > > I don't have time to review this one now but I would still love to > read it. Does Packt give BayPIGgies folk a discount on books? I > didn't see one on our website: > http://baypiggies.net/index_html/user-group-association-program > > Thanks, > > Eric. > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Tony Cappellini > wrote: > > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > Packt Publications is looking for someone to review > > > https://www.packtpub.com/django-javascript-integration-ajax-and-jquery/book > > > > If you're interested in reviewing this book, please reply off-list. > > > > > > Thanks > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleax at google.com Wed Feb 9 00:07:52 2011 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:07:52 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Ageism rehashed In-Reply-To: References: <1296591986.1755.39.camel@jim-laptop> <20110201233635.GF27663@symantec.com> <20110201161458.1a00da5b@dart.us.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 5:54 PM, Daniel Gonz?lez Gasull wrote: > I also wonder why a lot job applications ask for your street address. > I don't want to give my street address to a stranger before I'm > working there. ?City, state and even zipcode is fine with me, but not > full address. > > By the way, where I come from (Spain) almost everybody writes the date > of birth and also usually their married status in their resume. ?I was > actually pleasantly surprised when I realized nobody in the US does > that and is actually forbidden to ask that information in a job > application. Common in Italy too -- and almost inevitable, since there may be government requirements or subsidies for employing certain age categories and/or people of a certain marital/parental status (depends on the exact set of local and national governments involved and changes every year or so). E.g., an employer (in certain parts of Italy and in certain years) may get from the government a certain rebate on their social security contribution if it employs a single parent with sole custody of a minor child (widow/widower or unmarried), or somebody at least 50 years old who's been unemployed for at least three years, and so forth; firms of a certain size may be required to meet certain minimum quotas for such categories (or others such as employees with disabilities &c). These no doubt well-intentioned attempts at "affirmative action" to help disadvantaged categories and promote diversity would make it contradictory for the government to simultaneously forbid the employer to ascertain whether such criteria under they want to encourage hiring (which do include age, family status, disabilities) are or are not met (not that such contradiction has ever stopped governments from mandating both A and non-A, of course, especially when multiple jurisdictions -- national, city, region, Europe... -- overlap). Alex From bdbaddog at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 01:43:47 2011 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:43:47 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] New updated website up DNS changed now so you should see it over the next couple days Message-ID: Greetings, Thanks to Elizabeth Leddy and Ross Patterson and a handful of Plonista's we have a new Plone 4.0.x website, which should be both faster and more stable. All the old logins should work and navigation should not have changed. Please let me know if you run into any issues with the new site. Thanks, Bill From brian.curtin at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 02:01:04 2011 From: brian.curtin at gmail.com (Brian Curtin) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:01:04 -0600 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon 2011 news - going strong, sign up today! Message-ID: Hello group! PyCon 2011 looks like it may very well break every single record in the past - making it one of the biggest and best PyCons of all time. We've gone all out this year - including Extreme Talks, a Startup Row, amazing talks, tutorials, Poster sessions. Extreme talks: http://us.pycon.org/2011/speaker/extreme/ Startup Row: http://us.pycon.org/2011/blog/2011/01/19/announcing-startup-row-pycon-2011/ Also just announced - "Startup Stories": http://us.pycon.org/2011/blog/2011/02/07/pycon-2011-announcing-startup-stories/ If you haven't bought your PyCon tickets, it's time to do so. This year we're limited to 1500 attendees, and with a faster than average sales rate compared to previous years, you may not have the luxury of leaving registration until just before the conference -- places may sell out in advance! Check out http://us.pycon.org/2011/tickets/ for rates and details. Not sold on the conference? Not sure what it's all about? We are confident this year's conference will surpass anything that has gone before, and we think there's something for everyone. Looking for education? This year's tutorial selection features a range of topics and an all-star cast of presenters. From the cloud to the GUI, from beginner to advanced, we have it. Check out courses taught by book authors Wesley Chun and David Beazley, web framework master Jacob Kaplan-Moss, core developer and guru Raymond Hettinger, hacker extraordinaire Zed Shaw and many more: http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/tutorials/ -- and at flat fees that wouldn't buy you an hour of training by less-qualified instructors elsewhere! The conference talks are some of the best we've seen in years, coming from a record number of submissions. We've got talks on using Python for airplane tuning and massive telescopes. All of the major web frameworks will be discussed. Numerous databases are covered. PyPy, IronPython and Jython are in. We'll be talking about IDEs, testing, security, scalability, and documentation. Have a look: http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/lists/talks/ We've also got an amazing array of poster presentations - everything from Arduino hacking, Geospatial Python, Open Government and Microsoft Kinect hacking. Check out: http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/lists/posters/ Meanwhile we've got the awesome sprints (http://us.pycon.org/2011/sprints/ ), and open spaces (http://us.pycon.org/2011/openspaces/) everyone knows and loves. This is shaping up to be the best PyCon yet, and we think it's a great value, both cost-wise, and community-wise. We can guarantee that you'll come away with a head full of knowledge and amazing new friends and contacts. Get your tickets before they are gone: http://us.pycon.org/2011/tickets/ If you have any questions, comments or concerns - feel free to email Van Lindberg (van at python.org) or Jesse Noller (jnoller at python.org) or pycon-organizers (pycon-organizers at python.org). See you in Atlanta, Van Lindberg Jesse Noller The entire PyCon 2011 team http://us.pycon.org/2011 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbaddog at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 04:48:50 2011 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:48:50 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] New updated website up DNS changed now so you should see it over the next couple days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All better now. (I think) Switched the DNS. But forgot to swap some settings on the hosting control panel. -Bill On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote: > http://www.baypiggies.net/ > > See screenshot. ?Is that right? > > --steve > > > On 2/8/11 at 4:43 PM, bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) pronounced: > >> Greetings, >> >> Thanks to Elizabeth Leddy and Ross Patterson and a handful of >> Plonista's we have a new Plone 4.0.x website, which should be both >> faster and more stable. >> >> All the old logins should work and navigation should not have changed. >> >> Please let me know if you run into any issues with the new site. >> >> Thanks, >> Bill >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > Steve Piercy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Web Site Builder ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Soquel, CA > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? From itz at buug.org Wed Feb 9 06:24:39 2011 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 21:24:39 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] How to determine what unit tests cover a code change? In-Reply-To: <1296696276.25671.43.camel@lusaka> (Minesh B. Amin's message of "Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:24:36 -0800") References: <1296677828.23812.26.camel@lusaka> <1296696276.25671.43.camel@lusaka> Message-ID: <87wrl9eq5k.fsf@matica.localdomain> Minesh> A => stderr from just strace B => stderr,stdout from "python Minesh> ..." Minesh> This way, parsing output of strace should be much more Minesh> manageable. strace has an -o flag. -- Ian Zimmerman gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5 BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD Ham is for reading, not for eating. From Web at StevePiercy.com Wed Feb 9 10:00:34 2011 From: Web at StevePiercy.com (Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 01:00:34 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] New updated website up DNS changed now so you should see it over the next couple days In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There we go! Thanks Liz, Ross, and Bill! --steve On 2/8/11 at 7:48 PM, bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) pronounced: > All better now. (I think) > Switched the DNS. But forgot to swap some settings on the hosting > control panel. > > -Bill > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder > wrote: > > http://www.baypiggies.net/ > > > > See screenshot. ?Is that right? > > > > --steve > > > > > > On 2/8/11 at 4:43 PM, bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) pronounced: > > > >> Greetings, > >> > >> Thanks to Elizabeth Leddy and Ross Patterson and a handful of > >> Plonista's we have a new Plone 4.0.x website, which should be both > >> faster and more stable. > >> > >> All the old logins should work and navigation should not have changed. > >> > >> Please let me know if you run into any issues with the new site. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Bill > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > > Steve Piercy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Web Site Builder ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Soquel, CA > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Steve Piercy Web Site Builder Soquel, CA From brian.curtin at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 15:37:34 2011 From: brian.curtin at gmail.com (Brian Curtin) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 08:37:34 -0600 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon 2011 news - going strong, sign up today! Message-ID: Hello group! PyCon 2011 looks like it may very well break every single record in the past - making it one of the biggest and best PyCons of all time. We've gone all out this year - including Extreme Talks, a Startup Row, amazing talks, tutorials, Poster sessions. Extreme talks: http://us.pycon.org/2011/speaker/extreme/ Startup Row: http://us.pycon.org/2011/blog/2011/01/19/announcing-startup-row-pycon-2011/ Also just announced - "Startup Stories": http://us.pycon.org/2011/blog/2011/02/07/pycon-2011-announcing-startup-stories/ If you haven't bought your PyCon tickets, it's time to do so. This year we're limited to 1500 attendees, and with a faster than average sales rate compared to previous years, you may not have the luxury of leaving registration until just before the conference -- places may sell out in advance! Check out http://us.pycon.org/2011/tickets/ for rates and details. Not sold on the conference? Not sure what it's all about? We are confident this year's conference will surpass anything that has gone before, and we think there's something for everyone. Looking for education? This year's tutorial selection features a range of topics and an all-star cast of presenters. From the cloud to the GUI, from beginner to advanced, we have it. Check out courses taught by book authors Wesley Chun and David Beazley, web framework master Jacob Kaplan-Moss, core developer and guru Raymond Hettinger, hacker extraordinaire Zed Shaw and many more: http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/tutorials/ -- and at flat fees that wouldn't buy you an hour of training by less-qualified instructors elsewhere! The conference talks are some of the best we've seen in years, coming from a record number of submissions. We've got talks on using Python for airplane tuning and massive telescopes. All of the major web frameworks will be discussed. Numerous databases are covered. PyPy, IronPython and Jython are in. We'll be talking about IDEs, testing, security, scalability, and documentation. Have a look: http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/lists/talks/ We've also got an amazing array of poster presentations - everything from Arduino hacking, Geospatial Python, Open Government and Microsoft Kinect hacking. Check out: http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/lists/posters/ Meanwhile we've got the awesome sprints (http://us.pycon.org/2011/sprints/ ), and open spaces (http://us.pycon.org/2011/openspaces/) everyone knows and loves. This is shaping up to be the best PyCon yet, and we think it's a great value, both cost-wise, and community-wise. We can guarantee that you'll come away with a head full of knowledge and amazing new friends and contacts. Get your tickets before they are gone: http://us.pycon.org/2011/tickets/ If you have any questions, comments or concerns - feel free to email Van Lindberg (van at python.org) or Jesse Noller (jnoller at python.org) or pycon-organizers (pycon-organizers at python.org). See you in Atlanta, Van Lindberg Jesse Noller The entire PyCon 2011 team http://us.pycon.org/2011 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cappy2112 at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 22:15:48 2011 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 13:15:48 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to do a Newbie Nugget for Feb? Message-ID: Jimmy Retzlaff will be doing a presentation on mrjob, but we don't have a Newbie Nugget. Who wants to do one for the February meeting? From jimmy at retzlaff.com Wed Feb 9 22:40:47 2011 From: jimmy at retzlaff.com (Jimmy Retzlaff) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 13:40:47 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to do a Newbie Nugget for Feb? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > Jimmy Retzlaff will be doing a presentation on mrjob, but we don't > have a Newbie Nugget. > > Who wants to do one for the February meeting? Has anyone done an intro to generators recently? My mrjob talk will be using them, so it would tie in nicely. I'm happy to do it if there's interest, or someone else can pick it up. Jimmy From cappy2112 at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 22:57:55 2011 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 13:57:55 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to do a Newbie Nugget for Feb? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glen Jarvis did a nugget on generators last year, On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Jimmy Retzlaff wrote: > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: >> Jimmy Retzlaff will be doing a presentation on mrjob, but we don't >> have a Newbie Nugget. >> >> Who wants to do one for the February meeting? > > Has anyone done an intro to generators recently? My mrjob talk will be > using them, so it would tie in nicely. I'm happy to do it if there's > interest, or someone else can pick it up. > > Jimmy > From cappy2112 at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 22:58:23 2011 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 13:58:23 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to do a Newbie Nugget for Feb? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My mistake. Glen's nugget topic was decorators. On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Jimmy Retzlaff wrote: > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: >> Jimmy Retzlaff will be doing a presentation on mrjob, but we don't >> have a Newbie Nugget. >> >> Who wants to do one for the February meeting? > > Has anyone done an intro to generators recently? My mrjob talk will be > using them, so it would tie in nicely. I'm happy to do it if there's > interest, or someone else can pick it up. > > Jimmy > From glen at glenjarvis.com Wed Feb 9 23:13:06 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 14:13:06 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to do a Newbie Nugget for Feb? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've found that our audience changes enough that, even if it we did do something like this last year, we have a whole new set of people who are interested in a topic. I think what seems to work best is poll what people want to hear, and find someone who will talk about that. Also, as was pointed out, generators will be a good lead-in for mrjob. So, of the people who are intending to go to the mrjob talk (I'd really like to, but can't commit just yet due to time constraints), who would find a talk on generators helpful? If enough people would, I'm sure we can find a newbie nugget presenter to yield to (pun intended :). Any +1 or -1 on generators? Cheers, Glen On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > Glen Jarvis did a nugget on generators last year, > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Jimmy Retzlaff wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Tony Cappellini > wrote: > >> Jimmy Retzlaff will be doing a presentation on mrjob, but we don't > >> have a Newbie Nugget. > >> > >> Who wants to do one for the February meeting? > > > > Has anyone done an intro to generators recently? My mrjob talk will be > > using them, so it would tie in nicely. I'm happy to do it if there's > > interest, or someone else can pick it up. > > > > Jimmy > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at systemateka.com Thu Feb 10 00:27:17 2011 From: jim at systemateka.com (jim) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 15:27:17 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to do a Newbie Nugget for Feb? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1297294037.1841.1.camel@jim-laptop> A newbie nugget on generators? +1 for sure, great idea. On Wed, 2011-02-09 at 14:13 -0800, Glen Jarvis wrote: > I've found that our audience changes enough that, even if it we did do > something like this last year, we have a whole new set of people who > are interested in a topic. I think what seems to work best is poll > what people want to hear, and find someone who will talk about that. > > > Also, as was pointed out, generators will be a good lead-in for mrjob. > So, of the people who are intending to go to the mrjob talk (I'd > really like to, but can't commit just yet due to time constraints), > who would find a talk on generators helpful? If enough people would, > I'm sure we can find a newbie nugget presenter to yield to (pun > intended :). > > > Any +1 or -1 on generators? > > > Cheers, > > > > > Glen > > > > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Tony Cappellini > wrote: > Glen Jarvis did a nugget on generators last year, > > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Jimmy Retzlaff > wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Tony Cappellini > wrote: > >> Jimmy Retzlaff will be doing a presentation on mrjob, but > we don't > >> have a Newbie Nugget. > >> > >> Who wants to do one for the February meeting? > > > > Has anyone done an intro to generators recently? My mrjob > talk will be > > using them, so it would tie in nicely. I'm happy to do it if > there's > > interest, or someone else can pick it up. > > > > Jimmy > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which > matter least. > > -- Goethe > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From nstinemates at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 00:53:59 2011 From: nstinemates at gmail.com (Nick Stinemates) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 15:53:59 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to do a Newbie Nugget for Feb? In-Reply-To: <1297294037.1841.1.camel@jim-laptop> References: <1297294037.1841.1.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: +1 from me, too. Nick On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 3:27 PM, jim wrote: > > A newbie nugget on generators? +1 for sure, great idea. > > > On Wed, 2011-02-09 at 14:13 -0800, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > I've found that our audience changes enough that, even if it we did do > > something like this last year, we have a whole new set of people who > > are interested in a topic. I think what seems to work best is poll > > what people want to hear, and find someone who will talk about that. > > > > > > Also, as was pointed out, generators will be a good lead-in for mrjob. > > So, of the people who are intending to go to the mrjob talk (I'd > > really like to, but can't commit just yet due to time constraints), > > who would find a talk on generators helpful? If enough people would, > > I'm sure we can find a newbie nugget presenter to yield to (pun > > intended :). > > > > > > Any +1 or -1 on generators? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > Glen > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Tony Cappellini > > wrote: > > Glen Jarvis did a nugget on generators last year, > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Jimmy Retzlaff > > wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Tony Cappellini > > wrote: > > >> Jimmy Retzlaff will be doing a presentation on mrjob, but > > we don't > > >> have a Newbie Nugget. > > >> > > >> Who wants to do one for the February meeting? > > > > > > Has anyone done an intro to generators recently? My mrjob > > talk will be > > > using them, so it would tie in nicely. I'm happy to do it if > > there's > > > interest, or someone else can pick it up. > > > > > > Jimmy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which > > matter least. > > > > -- Goethe > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryceverdier at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 00:56:35 2011 From: bryceverdier at gmail.com (Bryce Verdier) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 15:56:35 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to do a Newbie Nugget for Feb? In-Reply-To: References: <1297294037.1841.1.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: <4D5329B3.9030800@gmail.com> +1 for me as well. Bryce On 02/09/2011 03:53 PM, Nick Stinemates wrote: > +1 from me, too. > > Nick > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 3:27 PM, jim > wrote: > > > A newbie nugget on generators? +1 for sure, great idea. > > > On Wed, 2011-02-09 at 14:13 -0800, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > I've found that our audience changes enough that, even if it we > did do > > something like this last year, we have a whole new set of people who > > are interested in a topic. I think what seems to work best is poll > > what people want to hear, and find someone who will talk about that. > > > > > > Also, as was pointed out, generators will be a good lead-in for > mrjob. > > So, of the people who are intending to go to the mrjob talk (I'd > > really like to, but can't commit just yet due to time constraints), > > who would find a talk on generators helpful? If enough people > would, > > I'm sure we can find a newbie nugget presenter to yield to (pun > > intended :). > > > > > > Any +1 or -1 on generators? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > Glen > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Tony Cappellini > > > > wrote: > > Glen Jarvis did a nugget on generators last year, > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Jimmy Retzlaff > > > wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Tony Cappellini > > > wrote: > > >> Jimmy Retzlaff will be doing a presentation on mrjob, but > > we don't > > >> have a Newbie Nugget. > > >> > > >> Who wants to do one for the February meeting? > > > > > > Has anyone done an intro to generators recently? My mrjob > > talk will be > > > using them, so it would tie in nicely. I'm happy to do it if > > there's > > > interest, or someone else can pick it up. > > > > > > Jimmy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which > > matter least. > > > > -- Goethe > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbaddog at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 01:13:24 2011 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 16:13:24 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Adding link to webfaction to website to thank them for the free hosting they've been providing Message-ID: <55685C2E-FDE0-47B3-B5DA-C2B401FA737C@gmail.com> All, I'd like to add a link/icon to the baypiggies site to the home page to thank the hosting company who's giving us free hosting for the last N years. Any reasonable reason not to do this? Thanks, Bill (Webmaster baypiggies.net) From jim at systemateka.com Thu Feb 10 01:21:42 2011 From: jim at systemateka.com (jim) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 16:21:42 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Adding link to webfaction to website to thank them for the free hosting they've been providing In-Reply-To: <55685C2E-FDE0-47B3-B5DA-C2B401FA737C@gmail.com> References: <55685C2E-FDE0-47B3-B5DA-C2B401FA737C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1297297302.1864.0.camel@jim-laptop> seems right to me. On Wed, 2011-02-09 at 16:13 -0800, William Deegan wrote: > All, > > I'd like to add a link/icon to the baypiggies site to the home page to thank the hosting company who's giving us free hosting for the last N years. > > Any reasonable reason not to do this? > > Thanks, > Bill > (Webmaster baypiggies.net) > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From Tim.Norman at dreamworks.com Thu Feb 10 00:53:14 2011 From: Tim.Norman at dreamworks.com (Norman, Tim) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 15:53:14 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dreamworks Animation Looking for 4 to 5 Week Pyhton/XHTML Developer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57E24B0263A3594EB66EEABC419CA407429D63703D@EXCLUSGLD1.win.dreamworks.com> Hello, all. I am looking for a consultant for a quick (4 to 5 week) onsite project at either our Glendale or Redwood City animation studio to help design and build out a dashboard for one of our internal apps. Python and XHTML are the primary skills set. Let me know if you are interested. You can reach me directly at tim.norman at dreamworks.com. Thanks Tim- Tim Norman Dreamworks Animation Ph 818.695 7801 www.dreamworks.com From tony at tcapp.com Thu Feb 10 02:03:35 2011 From: tony at tcapp.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 17:03:35 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Adding link to webfaction to website to thank them for the free hosting they've been providing In-Reply-To: <1297297302.1864.0.camel@jim-laptop> References: <55685C2E-FDE0-47B3-B5DA-C2B401FA737C@gmail.com> <1297297302.1864.0.camel@jim-laptop> Message-ID: >>I'd like to add a link/icon to the baypiggies site to the home page to thank the hosting company who's giving us free hosting for the last N years. +1 From johnm at mbg.com Thu Feb 10 20:12:34 2011 From: johnm at mbg.com (John Monnich) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 11:12:34 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python/C Middleware Application Developer contract role in San Jose Message-ID: <00ce01cbc956$79846000$6c8d2000$@com> Greetings All, Our hardware device firm is looking for an experienced application software engineer to help develop key middleware code on a new handheld device. This is a long term contract and will pay quite well. You will be working with a small team to implement new functionality as well as review and re-factor code and develop unit tests. Experience implementing multi-threaded applications is a must, experience with optimizing C and Python for speed and with implementing low-level graphics routines is also desirable. . 5+ years C experience (esp. multi-threaded applications) . Strong knowledge of Python . Linux . Excellent written and verbal communication skills If you, or anyone you know of is interested, please shoot me a email or call and I can arrange a more technical interview immediately. Cheers. John johnm at mbg.com 650-524-8849 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Sat Feb 12 20:19:24 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:19:24 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Raw file input and python Message-ID: I remember, about three years ago, reading someone's answer to a question very similar to this. But, I can't find it now. I have a raw input file where the first "entity" is a 64-bit unsigned integer and the remaining items in the file are 32-bit unsigned integers (until the end of the file). I vaguely remember there was already a module to cleanly handle this. I could, of course, open the file (f) in binary mode and do an f.read() on each byte and figure thing out. But, one will have to think of byte swapping, variable "sizes", etc. when running on different systems. I thought there was a layer above this that would take care of the mapping of data in the file (i.e., a raw dump/raw read) to a set of variables, taking care of byte swapping if needed, size of types, etc. as long as I specified the format (i.e., first should be 64-bit unsigned, second... etc.) Am I mistaking that this exists (i.e., did I just make this up)? Cheers, Glen -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Sat Feb 12 20:20:36 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:20:36 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Raw file input and python In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, and I'm constrained to Python 2.5 or lower only :( Glen On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > I remember, about three years ago, reading someone's answer to a question > very similar to this. But, I can't find it now. > > I have a raw input file where the first "entity" is a 64-bit unsigned > integer and the remaining items in the file are 32-bit unsigned integers > (until the end of the file). > > I vaguely remember there was already a module to cleanly handle this. I > could, of course, open the file (f) in binary mode and do an f.read() on > each byte and figure thing out. But, one will have to think of byte > swapping, variable "sizes", etc. when running on different systems. > > I thought there was a layer above this that would take care of the mapping > of data in the file (i.e., a raw dump/raw read) to a set of variables, > taking care of byte swapping if needed, size of types, etc. as long as I > specified the format (i.e., first should be 64-bit unsigned, second... etc.) > > Am I mistaking that this exists (i.e., did I just make this up)? > > Cheers, > > > > Glen > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter > least. > > -- Goethe > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikeyp at lahondaresearch.org Sat Feb 12 20:28:59 2011 From: mikeyp at lahondaresearch.org (Michael Pittaro) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:28:59 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Raw file input and python In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > Oh, and I'm constrained to Python 2.5 or lower only :( > > Glen > > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > >> I remember, about three years ago, reading someone's answer to a question >> very similar to this. But, I can't find it now. >> >> I have a raw input file where the first "entity" is a 64-bit unsigned >> integer and the remaining items in the file are 32-bit unsigned integers >> (until the end of the file). >> >> I vaguely remember there was already a module to cleanly handle this. I >> could, of course, open the file (f) in binary mode and do an f.read() on >> each byte and figure thing out. But, one will have to think of byte >> swapping, variable "sizes", etc. when running on different systems. >> >> I thought there was a layer above this that would take care of the mapping >> of data in the file (i.e., a raw dump/raw read) to a set of variables, >> taking care of byte swapping if needed, size of types, etc. as long as I >> specified the format (i.e., first should be 64-bit unsigned, second... etc.) >> >> Am I mistaking that this exists (i.e., did I just make this up)? >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> You probably are thinking of struct - perfect for byte level unpacking of records. http://www.doughellmann.com/PyMOTW/struct/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Sat Feb 12 20:48:56 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:48:56 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Raw file input and python In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, of course! That's what I'm thinking of.. If I were "thinking in C" that would have come to me quicker... Oh well.. Thanks for that! :) Glen On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Michael Pittaro < mikeyp at lahondaresearch.org> wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > >> Oh, and I'm constrained to Python 2.5 or lower only :( >> >> Glen >> >> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> >>> I remember, about three years ago, reading someone's answer to a question >>> very similar to this. But, I can't find it now. >>> >>> I have a raw input file where the first "entity" is a 64-bit unsigned >>> integer and the remaining items in the file are 32-bit unsigned integers >>> (until the end of the file). >>> >>> I vaguely remember there was already a module to cleanly handle this. I >>> could, of course, open the file (f) in binary mode and do an f.read() on >>> each byte and figure thing out. But, one will have to think of byte >>> swapping, variable "sizes", etc. when running on different systems. >>> >>> I thought there was a layer above this that would take care of the >>> mapping of data in the file (i.e., a raw dump/raw read) to a set of >>> variables, taking care of byte swapping if needed, size of types, etc. as >>> long as I specified the format (i.e., first should be 64-bit unsigned, >>> second... etc.) >>> >>> Am I mistaking that this exists (i.e., did I just make this up)? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> > You probably are thinking of struct - perfect for byte level unpacking of > records. > > http://www.doughellmann.com/PyMOTW/struct/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 21:29:41 2011 From: jeremy.r.fishman at gmail.com (Jeremy Fishman) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 12:29:41 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Raw file input and python In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A combination of struct and numpy can be useful as well. >>> import struct, numpy >>> f = open('foo', 'w+') >>> f.write('deadbeaf' + 400 * '\0') >>> f.seek(0) >>> >>> head = struct.unpack('Q', f.read(8))[0] >>> head 7377289137874888036L >>> tail = numpy.fromfile(f, 'int32') >>> len(tail) 100 Upside is that you get your bulk data in a powerful numpy array. - Jeremy On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > Yes, of course! That's what I'm >>> f = open('foo', 'w+') >>> f.write('\0' * 408) >>> f.seek(0) >>> head = struct.unpack('Q', f.read(8)) >>> head (0,) >>> tail = numpy.fromfile(f, 'int32') >>> len(tail) 100 >>> thinking of.. If I were "thinking in C" that would have come to me > quicker... Oh well.. > > Thanks for that! :) > > > Glen > > > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Michael Pittaro < > mikeyp at lahondaresearch.org> wrote: > >> >> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> >>> Oh, and I'm constrained to Python 2.5 or lower only :( >>> >>> Glen >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >>> >>>> I remember, about three years ago, reading someone's answer to a >>>> question very similar to this. But, I can't find it now. >>>> >>>> I have a raw input file where the first "entity" is a 64-bit unsigned >>>> integer and the remaining items in the file are 32-bit unsigned integers >>>> (until the end of the file). >>>> >>>> I vaguely remember there was already a module to cleanly handle this. I >>>> could, of course, open the file (f) in binary mode and do an f.read() on >>>> each byte and figure thing out. But, one will have to think of byte >>>> swapping, variable "sizes", etc. when running on different systems. >>>> >>>> I thought there was a layer above this that would take care of the >>>> mapping of data in the file (i.e., a raw dump/raw read) to a set of >>>> variables, taking care of byte swapping if needed, size of types, etc. as >>>> long as I specified the format (i.e., first should be 64-bit unsigned, >>>> second... etc.) >>>> >>>> Am I mistaking that this exists (i.e., did I just make this up)? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> >>>> >> You probably are thinking of struct - perfect for byte level unpacking of >> records. >> >> http://www.doughellmann.com/PyMOTW/struct/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter > least. > > -- Goethe > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fperez.net at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 22:56:56 2011 From: fperez.net at gmail.com (Fernando Perez) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:56:56 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Raw file input and python In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Jeremy Fishman wrote: > A combination of struct and numpy can be useful as well. Absolutely. And if your data items past a certain header are made of some kind of regular pattern that goes beyond simple ints or floats, you can always define a custom dtype so that you can read the whole thing into a single array of the proper dimensionality and with nicely named fields for your problems. This approach is very useful and can make quick work of complex (as long as they are regular enough to match the strided model of numpy arrays) datasets. Regards, f From bryceverdier at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 19:07:14 2011 From: bryceverdier at gmail.com (Bryce Verdier) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:07:14 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice Message-ID: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> Hello Fellow Bay Piggies, I would really appreciate the help as I have an interesting situation that I can't seem to figure out. My current job title is System Engineer. Although I do a fair amount of script writing (in python) I am performing a Systems Administrator job role. I took this job a little over a year ago because I had experience as such before I went back to school and I graduated during a pretty rough economy. I do not regret taking this job as I've learned some pretty cool things. However, I'm at the point where I realized I want my first programming job and I would really like it to be a python based job. Somehow my resume looks good enough for me to get the occasional programming interview. But this is where the problem starts. While I do believe that scripting has helped me keep my programming skills from going completely dull, I don't spend forty plus hours a week doing it. Thus when I do enter an interview, the interviewer is asking me questions that I haven't seen or even thought about since I was in school. Or asking me about the esoteric aspects of a language that I don't get exposure to as scripting doesn't required them. I realize that the economy still isn't great and that most companies aren't hiring junior level programmers right now, as there are enough mid-level programmers unemployed and willing to work for the same salary. My question for the group is, what can I do to position myself better towards getting a junior developer job when those start to open up again? Or what should I prioritize in my studying to help me cross over from sys. admin. to developer? Are there any jobs that you guys are aware of that a hybrid job between these two roles that would help facilitate the cross over? I am aware of the option to program for an open source project, but I'm not sure which one. Though I am looking. ;) Thanks in advance for your time and any thoughts you may share, Bryce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From venkat83 at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 19:16:04 2011 From: venkat83 at gmail.com (Venkatraman S) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 23:46:04 +0530 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> References: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Bryce Verdier wrote: > I am aware of the option to program for an open source project, but I'm > not sure which one. Though I am looking. ;) > > Why not try Python-core or Django or Pinax (check on the status of Pinax before you start though)? Probably port a few apps over to Python 3? Some experience with GAE would be an added icing to show that you can 'do' stuff? Btw, you will learn hell a lot by just hanging around in #python or python-dev mailing list. I have never committed anything in python, but did look at peephole optimization before the unladen efforts took place - learnt hell a lot. Though i hardly touch that arena any more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at eventbrite.com Tue Feb 15 19:24:21 2011 From: bob at eventbrite.com (Bob Van Zant) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:24:21 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> References: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> Message-ID: As someone who has interviewed hundreds of developer candidates during the past few years I can tell you that there are at least a few ways to be a nice, smart guy or gal that doesn't get a job offer: - No basic set of computer science fundamentals. Know the difference in time and space complexity for various operations on lists, hash tables and trees. You may never implement any of these data structures but if you don't know how they work the likelihood of you choosing the wrong one on the job is high. We're not looking for the next Knuth, you just need the basics but most candidates seem to have never learned them. - Can't write good, clean, testable, maintainable code. There's no faking this one. While you're writing code today focus on making it better. How can it be more testable? How can you make it easier to refactor in the future? More readable? Ask yourself these questions every time you write code and eventually you'll start writing beautiful stuff and you'll be able to speak intelligently about it during an interview. Many open source projects have horrible code. Be careful if you're using them as an example. Probably every developer job I've ever interviewed for, on either side of the table, has required these skills. On the interviewer side of the table the majority of candidates fail on these two fronts. By the way, eventbrite.com is hiring python people :-) -Bob On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Bryce Verdier wrote: > Hello Fellow Bay Piggies, > > I would really appreciate the help as I have an interesting situation that I > can't seem to figure out. > > My current job title is System Engineer. Although I do a fair amount of > script writing (in python) I am performing a Systems Administrator job role. > I took this job a little over a year ago because I had experience as such > before I went back to school and I graduated during a pretty rough economy. > I do not regret taking this job as I've learned some pretty cool things. > However, I'm at the point where I realized I want my first programming job > and I would really like it to be a python based job. > > Somehow my resume looks good enough for me to get the occasional programming > interview. But this is where the problem starts. While I do believe that > scripting has helped me keep my programming skills from going completely > dull, I don't spend forty plus hours a week doing it. Thus when I do enter > an interview, the interviewer is asking me questions that I haven't seen or > even thought about since I was in school. Or asking me about the esoteric > aspects of a language that I don't get exposure to as scripting doesn't > required them. > > I realize that the economy still isn't great and that most companies aren't > hiring junior level programmers right now, as there are enough mid-level > programmers unemployed and willing to work for the same salary. > > My question for the group is, what can I do to position myself better > towards getting a junior developer job when those start to open up again? Or > what should I prioritize in my studying to help me cross over from sys. > admin. to developer? Are there any jobs that you guys are aware of that a > hybrid job between these two roles that would help facilitate the cross > over? I am aware of the option to program for an open source project, but > I'm not sure which one. Though I am looking. ;) > > Thanks in advance for your time and any thoughts you may share, > Bryce > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jim at systemateka.com Tue Feb 15 19:25:03 2011 From: jim at systemateka.com (jim) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:25:03 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> References: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1297794303.1770.13.camel@jim-laptop> seems like you're doing things right. keep doing. get to know more python coders. take classes, teach classes, join sprints (e.g. the PyPy sprint coming up this March 5 and 6 at Noisebridge in SF) and join hackerdojo, noisebridge, and superhappydev and other such groups. as to open source projects, consider http://openhatch.org/ which is a python-based open source project that maps coders (and others) to needful projects. identify application areas you're interested in and learn to use the available packages. be sure you know the tools for developing an app from planning through coding and testing to build. Try to recall the questions you've been asked and ensure you can answer them. On Tue, 2011-02-15 at 10:07 -0800, Bryce Verdier wrote: > > > Hello Fellow Bay Piggies, > > > I would really appreciate the help as I have an interesting situation > that I can't seem to figure out. > > > > My current job title is System Engineer. Although I do a fair amount > of script writing (in python) I am performing a Systems Administrator > job role. I took this job a little over a year ago because I had > experience as such before I went back to school and I graduated during > a pretty rough economy. I do not regret taking this job as I've > learned some pretty cool things. However, I'm at the point where I > realized I want my first programming job and I would really like it to > be a python based job. > > > > Somehow my resume looks good enough for me to get the occasional > programming interview. But this is where the problem starts. While I > do believe that scripting has helped me keep my programming skills > from going completely dull, I don't spend forty plus hours a week > doing it. Thus when I do enter an interview, the interviewer is asking > me questions that I haven't seen or even thought about since I was in > school. Or asking me about the esoteric aspects of a language that I > don't get exposure to as scripting doesn't required them. > > > > I realize that the economy still isn't great and that most companies > aren't hiring junior level programmers right now, as there are enough > mid-level programmers unemployed and willing to work for the same > salary. > > > My question for the group is, what can I do to position myself better > towards getting a junior developer job when those start to open up > again? Or what should I prioritize in my studying to help me cross > over from sys. admin. to developer? Are there any jobs that you guys > are aware of that a hybrid job between these two roles that would help > facilitate the cross over? I am aware of the option to program for an > open source project, but I'm not sure which one. Though I am > looking. ;) > > > > Thanks in advance for your time and any thoughts you may share, > Bryce > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Feb 15 19:48:03 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:48:03 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: References: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bryce, I was in your shoes a few years ago. I felt so awkward at the interviews too because it felt like such a let-down after every interview. It was emotionally hard to go to an interview because I wanted to get the job, didn't, and I felt let down... disappointed.. and mostly discouraged.... If you're in that situation now, it *does* get better :) I promise :) if you keep at it... That isn't really the question that you asked though :( So, for advice: I don't think it hurts to get a mentor. I found someone on BayPIGgies to be my Python mentor when I first started -- he gave me small assignments and we did code reviews -- although he started doing Ruby professionally and I didn't use that resource much at all the past few years (I really should have) :( I also learned a lot by doing interviews. Painful or not, it was very educational. For example, I did a Python interview for a company stationed at Pivotal labs. It was the best interview in my life--so exciting. We had two screens: one on the left, and one on the right. The left had the beginning of a UnitTest. The one on the right was where we were to write Python. We implemented a small feature (just a lifo queue)... it was pair programming, so he started as we worked through issues and before the interview was over, I was doing real test-driven-development, driving and felt I "leveled up" (I'd been stuck on how to just "do" TDD for several years -- this was all I needed to get through it). That weekend I re-factored a good deal of my own code to have tests.... I also took itty-bitty jobs on Elance and other sites until I improved my skills through practice. It didn't pay much, but it gave me real experience... I personally don't have a silver bullet, I'm afraid.... But, if you can stick at it in your own time... you *will* eventually get there :) Good luck, and keep at it! :) Cheers, Glen On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Venkatraman S wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Bryce Verdier wrote: > >> I am aware of the option to program for an open source project, but I'm >> not sure which one. Though I am looking. ;) >> >> > Why not try Python-core or Django or Pinax (check on the status of Pinax > before you start though)? > Probably port a few apps over to Python 3? > Some experience with GAE would be an added icing to show that you can 'do' > stuff? > > Btw, you will learn hell a lot by just hanging around in #python or > python-dev mailing list. > I have never committed anything in python, but did look at peephole > optimization before the unladen > efforts took place - learnt hell a lot. Though i hardly touch that arena > any more. > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From recursive.cookie.jar at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 20:27:31 2011 From: recursive.cookie.jar at gmail.com (Zachary Collins) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:27:31 -0500 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: References: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's funny, because, I'm a software engineer who has little trouble getting jobs, does really strongly in interviews, and have been at it for years but... I don't really spend much time reviewing things like algorithms and complexity. Sure, I studied them in school, and it's worth keeping them "on your mind", but I think recruiters and other programmers kid themselves if they think that knowledge of that stuff is decisive in their hiring habits. You can know every algorithm in the book and it won't necessarily make you a better or more attractive hire. Because if it's useful and relevant, you'll learn it. I know alot about algorithmic complexity and algorithms only because they apply to my work on a regular basis. I say, if you're really looking for a way to get up to speed on the relevant skills to make a good impression, do it the same way you did it with learning your first language, how you learned to ride your bike, or how you learnt to drive: just do it, alot. Find anything, at all, that seems interesting and primarily focuses in programming, and start doing it alot in your spare time. My gateway drug (and to this day I still get my jollies from) was programming video games, might be worth considering. The best programmers in the world are the ones who just have buckled a certain amount of hours down. Your code will be cleaner, your knowledge of algorithms will be wider, and everything that is relevant to your area will become clearer naturally as you explore programming fully on your own. Don't waste time with classes or books unless they are interesting and motivate you to code more. Don't believe that there's a magic formula of smarts and advice that's going to give you a secret edge. The edge is experience. That's my feeling. It's not remotely hard or worth worrying about. Just do it. Anyone can program well. 2011/2/15 Glen Jarvis : > Bryce, > ?? I was in your shoes a few years ago. I felt so awkward at the interviews > too because it felt like such a let-down after every interview. It was > emotionally hard to go to an interview because I wanted to get the job, > didn't, and I felt let down... disappointed.. and mostly discouraged.... > ?? If you're in that situation now, it *does* get better :) ?I promise :) > ?if you keep at it... > ?? That isn't really the question that you asked though :( > ?? ?So, for advice: I don't think it hurts to get a mentor. I found someone > on BayPIGgies to be my Python mentor when I first started -- he gave me > small assignments and we did code reviews --?although he started doing Ruby > professionally and I didn't use that resource much at all the past few years > (I really should have) :( > ?? ?I also learned a lot by doing interviews. Painful or not, it was very > educational. For example, I did a Python interview for a company stationed > at Pivotal labs. It was the best interview in my life--so exciting. We had > two screens: one on the left, and one on the right. The left had the > beginning of a UnitTest. The one on the right was where we were to write > Python. We implemented a small feature (just a lifo queue)... it was pair > programming, so he started as we worked through issues and before the > interview was over, I was doing real test-driven-development, driving and > felt I "leveled up" (I'd been stuck on how to just "do" TDD for several > years -- this was all I needed to get through it). That weekend > I?re-factored?a good deal of my own code to have tests.... > ?? ?I also took itty-bitty jobs on Elance and other sites until I improved > my skills through practice. It didn't pay much, but it gave me real > experience... > ?? ?I personally don't have a silver bullet, I'm afraid.... ?But, if you can > stick at it in your own time... you *will* eventually get there :) > > Good luck, and keep at it! :) > > Cheers, > > Glen > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Venkatraman S wrote: >> >> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Bryce Verdier >> wrote: >>> >>> I am aware of the option to program for an open source project, but I'm >>> not sure which one. Though I am looking. ;) >>> >> >> Why not try Python-core or Django or Pinax (check on the status of Pinax >> before you start though)? >> Probably port a few apps over to Python 3? >> Some experience with GAE would be an added icing to show that you can 'do' >> stuff? >> >> Btw, you will learn hell a lot by just hanging around in #python or >> python-dev mailing list. >> I have never committed anything in python, but did look at peephole >> optimization before the unladen >> efforts took place - learnt hell a lot. Though i hardly touch that arena >> any more. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter > least. > > -- Goethe > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From nstinemates at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 20:53:05 2011 From: nstinemates at gmail.com (Nick Stinemates) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:53:05 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> References: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> Message-ID: You may want to look in to a QA Engineer role. Developing tools to aid testing is a good stepping stone for honing your understanding of delivering quality software and coding skills. Good luck Nick On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Bryce Verdier wrote: > Hello Fellow Bay Piggies, > > I would really appreciate the help as I have an interesting situation that > I can't seem to figure out. > > My current job title is System Engineer. Although I do a fair amount of > script writing (in python) I am performing a Systems Administrator job role. > I took this job a little over a year ago because I had experience as such > before I went back to school and I graduated during a pretty rough economy. > I do not regret taking this job as I've learned some pretty cool things. > However, I'm at the point where I realized I want my first programming job > and I would really like it to be a python based job. > > Somehow my resume looks good enough for me to get the occasional > programming interview. But this is where the problem starts. While I do > believe that scripting has helped me keep my programming skills from going > completely dull, I don't spend forty plus hours a week doing it. Thus when I > do enter an interview, the interviewer is asking me questions that I haven't > seen or even thought about since I was in school. Or asking me about the > esoteric aspects of a language that I don't get exposure to as scripting > doesn't required them. > > I realize that the economy still isn't great and that most companies aren't > hiring junior level programmers right now, as there are enough mid-level > programmers unemployed and willing to work for the same salary. > > My question for the group is, what can I do to position myself better > towards getting a junior developer job when those start to open up again? Or > what should I prioritize in my studying to help me cross over from sys. > admin. to developer? Are there any jobs that you guys are aware of that a > hybrid job between these two roles that would help facilitate the cross > over? I am aware of the option to program for an open source project, but > I'm not sure which one. Though I am looking. ;) > > Thanks in advance for your time and any thoughts you may share, > Bryce > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Web at StevePiercy.com Wed Feb 16 03:55:48 2011 From: Web at StevePiercy.com (Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 18:55:48 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> Message-ID: The best time to interview for a new career is when you have a job. If you don't get hired, you still have a job to fall back on. But why limit yourself to a job? Why not go down the path of entrepreneur and create your own career? While working full-time, I moonlighted and started building up a client base as a freelance web application developer. After doing that for a dozen years and building up a sufficient savings cushion, I launched my own business. I set aside my fears of not having medical benefits, a retirement account or steady income and just went for it. I reckoned the worst that could happen would be that I would have to get another job when my savings ran out. I'm now approaching my third year in business for myself, and my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. I have greater flexibility with retirement savings and investment, health care is affordable, and although my income fluctuates on a monthly basis, it levels out on a semi-annual basis. And I love what I do for a living. Anyway, if you go the job route, in addition to what has already been stated: * Teaching, training and generally showing that you like to help people to help themselves will take you very far. * Go through a couple product development cycles as a project manager. Show that you can lead and get things done. * Carve out a niche. What do you enjoy doing beside programming and geeking out? Write an application that supports your interest and fills a niche. Deploy it and release it. Best of luck! --steve On 2/15/11 at 10:07 AM, bryceverdier at gmail.com (Bryce Verdier) pronounced: >Hello Fellow Bay Piggies, > >I would really appreciate the help as I have an interesting >situation that I can't seem to figure out. > >My current job title is System Engineer. Although I do a fair >amount of script writing (in python) I am performing a Systems >Administrator job role. I took this job a little over a year >ago because I had experience as such before I went back to >school and I graduated during a pretty rough economy. I do not >regret taking this job as I've learned some pretty cool things. >However, I'm at the point where I realized I want my first >programming job and I would really like it to be a python based job. > >Somehow my resume looks good enough for me to get the >occasional programming interview. But this is where the problem >starts. While I do believe that scripting has helped me keep my >programming skills from going completely dull, I don't spend >forty plus hours a week doing it. Thus when I do enter an >interview, the interviewer is asking me questions that I >haven't seen or even thought about since I was in school. Or >asking me about the esoteric aspects of a language that I don't >get exposure to as scripting doesn't required them. > >I realize that the economy still isn't great and that most >companies aren't hiring junior level programmers right now, as >there are enough mid-level programmers unemployed and willing >to work for the same salary. > >My question for the group is, what can I do to position myself >better towards getting a junior developer job when those start >to open up again? Or what should I prioritize in my studying to >help me cross over from sys. admin. to developer? Are there any >jobs that you guys are aware of that a hybrid job between these >two roles that would help facilitate the cross over? I am aware >of the option to program for an open source project, but I'm >not sure which one. Though I am looking. ;) > >Thanks in advance for your time and any thoughts you may share, >Bryce > > > >----- >_______________________________________________ >Baypiggies mailing list >Baypiggies at python.org >To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Steve Piercy Web Site Builder Soquel, CA From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Feb 16 04:49:46 2011 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:49:46 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: References: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20110216034946.GB28229@panix.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote: > > But why limit yourself to a job? Why not go down the path of > entrepreneur and create your own career? While working full-time, I > moonlighted and started building up a client base as a freelance web > application developer. After doing that for a dozen years and > building up a sufficient savings cushion, I launched my own > business. I set aside my fears of not having medical benefits, a > retirement account or steady income and just went for it. Why not? Because some of us just don't have the personality for it. After painful experience, I've learned that I need to be part of a team, and it's a lot easier to be part of a team doing a steady job. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Programming language design is not a rational science. Most reasoning about it is at best rationalization of gut feelings, and at worst plain wrong." --GvR, python-ideas, 2009-03-01 From Web at StevePiercy.com Wed Feb 16 11:39:34 2011 From: Web at StevePiercy.com (Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 02:39:34 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: <20110216034946.GB28229@panix.com> Message-ID: On 2/15/11 at 7:49 PM, aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) pronounced: >Why not? Because some of us just don't have the personality for it. >After painful experience, I've learned that I need to be part of a team, >and it's a lot easier to be part of a team doing a steady job. Agree on the personality traits. Self-employment is not for all people. Disagree strongly on the team aspect. I have formed more and better teams and professional relationships since going solo. It's hard to pin down the exact reason for that, but I would attribute it mostly to these differences: * I work on things for which I have a personal interest, whereas while employed I seldom had a choice of what to work on. My teammates share that same interest (usually they are a small business owner or organization) and the enthusiasm is contagious. * I have the potential for earning a great deal more, whereas while employed I was stuck at a salary level with little opportunity for growth. As part of my compensation, I can negotiate a stake in projects. My teammates usually have a similar stake, and so are motivated as well. For me the reward has been worth taking the risk. * My clients express their appreciation for my work and efforts, whereas in a job I rarely got thanked or felt appreciated. --steve -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Steve Piercy Web Site Builder Soquel, CA From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Feb 16 17:42:59 2011 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 08:42:59 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: References: <20110216034946.GB28229@panix.com> Message-ID: <20110216164258.GA4945@panix.com> On Wed, Feb 16, 2011, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote: > On 2/15/11 at 7:49 PM, aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) pronounced: >> >>Why not? Because some of us just don't have the personality for it. >>After painful experience, I've learned that I need to be part of a team, >>and it's a lot easier to be part of a team doing a steady job. > > Agree on the personality traits. Self-employment is not for all people. > > Disagree strongly on the team aspect. I have formed more and better > teams and professional relationships since going solo. It's hard to > pin down the exact reason for that, but I would attribute it mostly > to these differences: > > * I work on things for which I have a personal interest, whereas > while employed I seldom had a choice of what to work on. My > teammates share that same interest (usually they are a small > business owner or organization) and the enthusiasm is contagious. Both of my two most recent jobs gave me lots of freedom. Even in my previous jobs at larger companies, I got a fair amount of freedom. I guess that's a perk of being skilled (combined with a personality that refuses pigeon-holing). > * I have the potential for earning a great deal more, whereas while > employed I was stuck at a salary level with little opportunity for > growth. As part of my compensation, I can negotiate a stake in > projects. My teammates usually have a similar stake, and so are > motivated as well. For me the reward has been worth taking the > risk. Financial reward generally means little to me (past a "minimum wage" for my skill level). I could easily get more money, but at the cost of other things that are important to me. > * My clients express their appreciation for my work and efforts, > whereas in a job I rarely got thanked or felt appreciated. That has varied significantly for me. In my current job, I always get direct appreciation for my efforts on at least a weekly basis and usually more frequently. It's one of the best jobs I've ever had. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Programming language design is not a rational science. Most reasoning about it is at best rationalization of gut feelings, and at worst plain wrong." --GvR, python-ideas, 2009-03-01 From bryceverdier at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 18:04:43 2011 From: bryceverdier at gmail.com (Bryce Verdier) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:04:43 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: References: <4D5AC0D2.9010309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D5C03AB.4090607@gmail.com> First off, thank you everyone who has commented. I really appreciate the time people took to try and help me out with this. Also, thank you Glen for adding the emotional content to the emails and for the words of encouragement. ;) The situation has been extremely frustrating. But I digress. I honestly do like the idea of having a mentor. There are lots of things that one can learn on one's own, but I honestly feel that the whole learning process can be sped up with a mentor. Not only that, it's always good to have someone review your code. I think it keeps you in the habit of good programming practices. Instead of getting lazy with your "home" projects and then starting to develop bad habits. So... would anyone who has been following this thread mind being my python programming mentor? Bryce On 02/15/2011 10:48 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > Bryce, > > I was in your shoes a few years ago. I felt so awkward at the > interviews too because it felt like such a let-down after every > interview. It was emotionally hard to go to an interview because I > wanted to get the job, didn't, and I felt let down... disappointed.. > and mostly discouraged.... > > If you're in that situation now, it *does* get better :) I promise > :) if you keep at it... > > That isn't really the question that you asked though :( > > So, for advice: I don't think it hurts to get a mentor. I found > someone on BayPIGgies to be my Python mentor when I first started -- > he gave me small assignments and we did code reviews -- although he > started doing Ruby professionally and I didn't use that resource much > at all the past few years (I really should have) :( > > I also learned a lot by doing interviews. Painful or not, it was > very educational. For example, I did a Python interview for a company > stationed at Pivotal labs. It was the best interview in my life--so > exciting. We had two screens: one on the left, and one on the right. > The left had the beginning of a UnitTest. The one on the right was > where we were to write Python. We implemented a small feature (just a > lifo queue)... it was pair programming, so he started as we worked > through issues and before the interview was over, I was doing real > test-driven-development, driving and felt I "leveled up" (I'd been > stuck on how to just "do" TDD for several years -- this was all I > needed to get through it). That weekend I re-factored a good deal of > my own code to have tests.... > > I also took itty-bitty jobs on Elance and other sites until I > improved my skills through practice. It didn't pay much, but it gave > me real experience... > > I personally don't have a silver bullet, I'm afraid.... But, if > you can stick at it in your own time... you *will* eventually get there :) > > > Good luck, and keep at it! :) > > > Cheers, > > > Glen > > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Venkatraman S > wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Bryce Verdier > > wrote: > > I am aware of the option to program for an open source > project, but I'm not sure which one. Though I am looking. ;) > > > Why not try Python-core or Django or Pinax (check on the status of > Pinax before you start though)? > Probably port a few apps over to Python 3? > Some experience with GAE would be an added icing to show that you > can 'do' stuff? > > Btw, you will learn hell a lot by just hanging around in #python > or python-dev mailing list. > I have never committed anything in python, but did look at > peephole optimization before the unladen > efforts took place - learnt hell a lot. Though i hardly touch that > arena any more. > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which > matter least. > > -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Feb 16 18:19:04 2011 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:19:04 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Wanted: developers at Egnyte Message-ID: <20110216171904.GA15212@panix.com> Egnyte is a fast-growing hybrid cloud storage company. We have several positions open for smart, flexible, and creative people to help us scale up and polish our products. We're more interested in proven problem-solving skills and ability to learn new technologies than pedigree or precise skill-set; everyone works on multiple projects. Not all positions are Python-centric, but several are, especially the Desktop Developer position below. However, all positions do require at least some Python. Candidates should have expertise with at least one of the following, plus at least some experience as a developer: * Java (our core server technology) * Python (CherryPy servers, client, random stuff) * Desktop (Windows/Mac) * Mobile (iOS/Android) * Database (MySQL/Cassandra) * JavaScript (jQuery/extJS) * Storage (Mogile/S3) * Security (encryption and DRM) Desktop Developer (Mac/Windows) You need to have experience building desktop applications on either Mac or Windows and be comfortable with both Mac and Windows. Other skills you need to have or learn: * Python * SQL * HTML and JavaScript (jQuery) * Linux Feel free to ask me for more info, but send resumes to jobs at egnyte.com http://www.egnyte.com/ Some telecommuting, mostly office -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Programming language design is not a rational science. Most reasoning about it is at best rationalization of gut feelings, and at worst plain wrong." --GvR, python-ideas, 2009-03-01 From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 20:01:57 2011 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:01:57 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Kontagent is looking for Python developers In-Reply-To: <20110216171904.GA15212@panix.com> References: <20110216171904.GA15212@panix.com> Message-ID: Kontagent (San Francisco, CA) Kontagent measures people, not pages, and is a leading analytics platform for social application developers. The platform has been built to provide deep social behavior analysis and visualization that provides actionable insights via a hosted, on-demand service. It works with many of the world?s largest developers and brands, tracking thousands of social applications and games with over 100 million monthly active users and over 15 billion messages per month. http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/10/facebook-analytics-platform-kontagent-now-tracking-100m-users-15b-messages-per-month/ I've joined this startup since a few weeks ago as a developer. Our technology stack includes JavaScript, Python, Django, MySQL, data warehousing, etc. We are still a very small company and I excited to start contributing on day one. Free lunch is served daily. Feel free to contact me if you are interested or need additional information. http://jobvite.com/m?3aMH1fwo Wai Yip Tung From roderick at sanfransystems.com Wed Feb 16 19:46:53 2011 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:46:53 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D5C1B9D.6030706@sanfransystems.com> Hello, I just wanted to put my two cents in one Steve Piercy's advice. I agree with a lot of what he says. But when he says "I set aside my fears of not having medical benefits", I have some cautions there based on my experience. I too gave up on them when I went to doing all contract work. I acquired individual insurance. As long as you can get that, get it right now. The problem is that when you reach about 50 years old (I know that for some of you that seems basically infinitely far away.... let me assure you that it is not, and this advice is meant for you!), you become extremely undesirable customers for insurance companies. You will get endless offers from car, fire, and life insurance firms, but you won't hear word 1 from medical insurance companies. They will use any possible excuse to deny you coverage. Again, if you are a 20 something or even in your 30s, this seems totally irrelevant: insurance is cheap, you never get sick, you really would rather have a fast car, and hey, you're immortal, right? Now what happened to me was I took a full time job with good medical coverage, and my own insurance was getting expensive, so I dropped my individual coverage. Within a year I tired of the full time job and quit. Lo and behold, since I no longer had individual coverage, no firm was obligated to cover me (thank you Republicans!). So they all turned me down. In America, you have no right whatsoever to medical insurance. That's what we call "capitalism". What it means is that if you have a major disaster, you will be essentially bankrupted. Everything you have made in your entire life will be dissolved to pay for that liver transplant or whatever. As long as you have an existing individual plan, very easy to obtain when you are young and healthy (but not, unfortunately, immortal), and you keep paying your premiums, your insurer will keep you on and cannot kick you out. You want to do this until you are eligible for Medicare. Again, I know this seems so far away as to be practically unimaginable to many of you, but consider that all the retirement plans, 401Ks, stock equity you're drooling over, that house you picked up cheap during our bust, etc.... all could be lost because of one disease. Even that fast car! So it's pointless to plan for all of those things and not focus on this insurance issue. This is the true tyranny of the American system. If you are a full-time employee, you get free or nearly free medical coverage. But if you leave employment, you only get Cobra (which by the way if you are gay, it does NOT cover your partner, because it's a Federal program and as you probably know, the Feds only recognize the existence of gay people in one context: you can't serve in the Army), which lasts 18 months (plus 18 more covered by California). Once that time expires, you are on your own. And if you are now 50, forget about getting medical insurance. This in turn will force you to take full time work to get coverage. But guess what: hi-tech firms want to hire 50 year olds about as much as medical insurance companies want to cover them! So my advice is to think very carefully about this issue. Don't just assume that "if I need it I can get it". That's like saying "I won't buy fire insurance until my house burns down." Surely you don't think the insurance companies are that stupid, do you? Good luck, Rod Llewellyn From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 20:39:55 2011 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:39:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: <4D5C1B9D.6030706@sanfransystems.com> References: <4D5C1B9D.6030706@sanfransystems.com> Message-ID: <241030.66106.qm@web110102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Good point about medical insurance. I wonder if the upcoming health care reform will change that. Medical insurance is one issue that dissuade me from free lancing or working for early stage or unfunded startup, which may have minimal or no medical coverage. The employment based health care insurance is tying people to large companies and is not helpful in this new economy. Wai Yip ----- Original Message ---- From: Roderick Llewellyn To: baypiggies at python.org Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 10:46:53 AM Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice Hello, I just wanted to put my two cents in one Steve Piercy's advice. I agree with a lot of what he says. But when he says "I set aside my fears of not having medical benefits", I have some cautions there based on my experience. I too gave up on them when I went to doing all contract work. I acquired individual insurance. As long as you can get that, get it right now. The problem is that when you reach about 50 years old (I know that for some of you that seems basically infinitely far away.... let me assure you that it is not, and this advice is meant for you!), you become extremely undesirable customers for insurance companies. You will get endless offers from car, fire, and life insurance firms, but you won't hear word 1 from medical insurance companies. They will use any possible excuse to deny you coverage. Again, if you are a 20 something or even in your 30s, this seems totally irrelevant: insurance is cheap, you never get sick, you really would rather have a fast car, and hey, you're immortal, right? Now what happened to me was I took a full time job with good medical coverage, and my own insurance was getting expensive, so I dropped my individual coverage. Within a year I tired of the full time job and quit. Lo and behold, since I no longer had individual coverage, no firm was obligated to cover me (thank you Republicans!). So they all turned me down. In America, you have no right whatsoever to medical insurance. That's what we call "capitalism". What it means is that if you have a major disaster, you will be essentially bankrupted. Everything you have made in your entire life will be dissolved to pay for that liver transplant or whatever. As long as you have an existing individual plan, very easy to obtain when you are young and healthy (but not, unfortunately, immortal), and you keep paying your premiums, your insurer will keep you on and cannot kick you out. You want to do this until you are eligible for Medicare. Again, I know this seems so far away as to be practically unimaginable to many of you, but consider that all the retirement plans, 401Ks, stock equity you're drooling over, that house you picked up cheap during our bust, etc.... all could be lost because of one disease. Even that fast car! So it's pointless to plan for all of those things and not focus on this insurance issue. This is the true tyranny of the American system. If you are a full-time employee, you get free or nearly free medical coverage. But if you leave employment, you only get Cobra (which by the way if you are gay, it does NOT cover your partner, because it's a Federal program and as you probably know, the Feds only recognize the existence of gay people in one context: you can't serve in the Army), which lasts 18 months (plus 18 more covered by California). Once that time expires, you are on your own. And if you are now 50, forget about getting medical insurance. This in turn will force you to take full time work to get coverage. But guess what: hi-tech firms want to hire 50 year olds about as much as medical insurance companies want to cover them! So my advice is to think very carefully about this issue. Don't just assume that "if I need it I can get it". That's like saying "I won't buy fire insurance until my house burns down." Surely you don't think the insurance companies are that stupid, do you? Good luck, Rod Llewellyn _______________________________________________ Baypiggies mailing list Baypiggies at python.org To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From elizabeth.leddy at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 21:20:25 2011 From: elizabeth.leddy at gmail.com (Elizabeth Leddy) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:20:25 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: <241030.66106.qm@web110102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4D5C1B9D.6030706@sanfransystems.com> <241030.66106.qm@web110102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I want to chime in on the insurance part too, and from a "young" persons perspective. I went solo and got disaster insurance since I'm super healthy and active. It covered no maintenance, and was an 8500 max out of pocket, but it was $60 a month. Lo and behold I got into a bike accident and ended up with a $32,000 medical bill. You would think that all I owed would be 8500 (which I had diligently saved up) but $12,000 later and I still am battling the bills. These insurance companies will find any excuse not to pay things, even if things happen in emergency, so BE CAREFUL. And be diligent - you have to be ready to fight these guys and their croons. The cheap stuff is enticing but its classic "too good to be true". I hired a medical biller (with cake and cookies) to review the contract with the next company I went with. Or ask on this list - I'm sure we all have opinions on who sucks (e.g I recommend avoiding anthem blue cross... evil....). I will say that going out on my own, more than anything, has lead me to realize what a disaster the medical system is. It's only when you actually see bills coming in that you realize what is being spent on your care. For that eye opening chance I am grateful. In theory, the reform will help us out by giving us a [small] tax credit since we are our own employers. Who knows what will happen before 2012 though. The change that will affect things this year, is that you can only write off medical costs that are > 10% of your total income (vs 7.5% last year). So if you get sick, scrounge up those receipts and hold on tight. In the meanwhile, you can join the freelancers union and check to see if there is insurance in your area (dental too): http://www.freelancersunion.org/insurance/explore/ Or just marry an illegal citizen so they can get a job with insurance and you can go on their plan. Win-win. I'm sure republicans would just love that idea. Liz On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Tung Wai Yip wrote: > Good point about medical insurance. I wonder if the upcoming health care > reform > will change that. Medical insurance is one issue that dissuade me from free > lancing or working for early stage or unfunded startup, which may have > minimal > or no medical coverage. The employment based health care insurance is tying > people to large companies and is not helpful in this new economy. > > > Wai Yip > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Roderick Llewellyn > To: baypiggies at python.org > Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 10:46:53 AM > Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice > > Hello, > > I just wanted to put my two cents in one Steve Piercy's advice. I agree > with a > lot of what he says. But when he says "I set aside my fears of not having > medical benefits", I have some cautions there based on my experience. I too > gave > up on them when I went to doing all contract work. I acquired individual > insurance. As long as you can get that, get it right now. The problem is > that > when you reach about 50 years old (I know that for some of you that seems > basically infinitely far away.... let me assure you that it is not, and > this > advice is meant for you!), you become extremely undesirable customers for > insurance companies. You will get endless offers from car, fire, and life > insurance firms, but you won't hear word 1 from medical insurance > companies. > They will use any possible excuse to deny you coverage. Again, if you are a > 20 > something or even in your 30s, this seems totally irrelevant: insurance is > cheap, you never get sick, you really would rather have a fast car, and > hey, > you're immortal, right? > > Now what happened to me was I took a full time job with good medical > coverage, > and my own insurance was getting expensive, so I dropped my individual > coverage. > Within a year I tired of the full time job and quit. Lo and behold, since I > no > longer had individual coverage, no firm was obligated to cover me (thank > you > Republicans!). So they all turned me down. In America, you have no right > whatsoever to medical insurance. That's what we call "capitalism". What it > means > is that if you have a major disaster, you will be essentially bankrupted. > Everything you have made in your entire life will be dissolved to pay for > that > liver transplant or whatever. > > As long as you have an existing individual plan, very easy to obtain when > you > are young and healthy (but not, unfortunately, immortal), and you keep > paying > your premiums, your insurer will keep you on and cannot kick you out. You > want > to do this until you are eligible for Medicare. Again, I know this seems so > far > away as to be practically unimaginable to many of you, but consider that > all the > retirement plans, 401Ks, stock equity you're drooling over, that house you > picked up cheap during our bust, etc.... all could be lost because of one > disease. Even that fast car! So it's pointless to plan for all of those > things > and not focus on this insurance issue. > > This is the true tyranny of the American system. If you are a full-time > employee, you get free or nearly free medical coverage. But if you leave > employment, you only get Cobra (which by the way if you are gay, it does > NOT > cover your partner, because it's a Federal program and as you probably > know, the > Feds only recognize the existence of gay people in one context: you can't > serve > in the Army), which lasts 18 months (plus 18 more covered by California). > Once > that time expires, you are on your own. And if you are now 50, forget about > getting medical insurance. This in turn will force you to take full time > work to > get coverage. But guess what: hi-tech firms want to hire 50 year olds about > as > much as medical insurance companies want to cover them! > > So my advice is to think very carefully about this issue. Don't just assume > that > "if I need it I can get it". That's like saying "I won't buy fire insurance > until my house burns down." Surely you don't think the insurance companies > are > that stupid, do you? > > Good luck, > > Rod Llewellyn > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Wed Feb 16 22:11:45 2011 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 13:11:45 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: <4D5C1B9D.6030706@sanfransystems.com> References: <4D5C1B9D.6030706@sanfransystems.com> Message-ID: <20110216211145.GA24978@panix.com> On Wed, Feb 16, 2011, Roderick Llewellyn wrote: > > This is the true tyranny of the American system. If you are a > full-time employee, you get free or nearly free medical coverage. > But if you leave employment, you only get Cobra (which by the way if > you are gay, it does NOT cover your partner, because it's a Federal > program and as you probably know, the Feds only recognize the > existence of gay people in one context: you can't serve in the > Army), which lasts 18 months (plus 18 more covered by California). > Once that time expires, you are on your own. And if you are now 50, > forget about getting medical insurance. This in turn will force you > to take full time work to get coverage. But guess what: hi-tech > firms want to hire 50 year olds about as much as medical insurance > companies want to cover them! Unless the law has changed in the last decade, this isn't quite true: after your COBRA expires, HIPAA mandates that your insurance company sell you insurance at some "market rate" (which is considerably higher than rates charged to companies, but is not outrageous compared to individual plans with similar features). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Programming language design is not a rational science. Most reasoning about it is at best rationalization of gut feelings, and at worst plain wrong." --GvR, python-ideas, 2009-03-01 From Web at StevePiercy.com Thu Feb 17 00:42:57 2011 From: Web at StevePiercy.com (Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:42:57 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Career Advice In-Reply-To: <4D5C1B9D.6030706@sanfransystems.com> Message-ID: Yes, I should have added the disclaimer that I went solo in my 40's. I also have no pre-existing condition, was never denied coverage or had my coverage canceled, and I avoid high health risk behaviors. If you are not in that group or you are in your 50's or older, then be prepared to be priced out of the market. For shopping around, I used this site: http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/ I went with a high-deductible ($5000) health plan (HDHP) for myself, and later added my wife when she got laid off from her job. Solo I paid $159/mo, but together $179/mo. No dental or vision, as that is more expensive than paying out of pocket. To pay for medical expenses up to the deductible or for non-eligible medical expenses, we use a Health Savings Account. An HSA allows you to reduce your taxable income up to the amount of an annual contribution limit, but you must have an eligible HDHP to have an HSA. Our HSA also allows us to invest in a brokerage of our choosing, so the savings can gain or lose value depending on what we invest in. We use a debit card tied to the HSA account to pay medical bills and other non-eligible items. Without these affordable options available to me, I may have paused and stayed in the employment sphere. --steve On 2/16/11 at 10:46 AM, roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) pronounced: >Hello, > >I just wanted to put my two cents in one Steve Piercy's advice. >I agree with a lot of what he says. But when he says "I set >aside my fears of not having medical benefits", I have some >cautions there based on my experience. I too gave up on them >when I went to doing all contract work. I acquired individual >insurance. As long as you can get that, get it right now. The >problem is that when you reach about 50 years old (I know that >for some of you that seems basically infinitely far away.... >let me assure you that it is not, and this advice is meant for >you!), you become extremely undesirable customers for insurance >companies. You will get endless offers from car, fire, and life >insurance firms, but you won't hear word 1 from medical >insurance companies. They will use any possible excuse to deny >you coverage. Again, if you are a 20 something or even in your >30s, this seems totally irrelevant: insurance is cheap, you >never get sick, you really would rather have a fast car, and >hey, you're immortal, right? > >Now what happened to me was I took a full time job with good >medical coverage, and my own insurance was getting expensive, >so I dropped my individual coverage. Within a year I tired of >the full time job and quit. Lo and behold, since I no longer >had individual coverage, no firm was obligated to cover me >(thank you Republicans!). So they all turned me down. In >America, you have no right whatsoever to medical insurance. >That's what we call "capitalism". What it means is that if you >have a major disaster, you will be essentially bankrupted. >Everything you have made in your entire life will be dissolved >to pay for that liver transplant or whatever. > >As long as you have an existing individual plan, very easy to >obtain when you are young and healthy (but not, unfortunately, >immortal), and you keep paying your premiums, your insurer will >keep you on and cannot kick you out. You want to do this until >you are eligible for Medicare. Again, I know this seems so far >away as to be practically unimaginable to many of you, but >consider that all the retirement plans, 401Ks, stock equity >you're drooling over, that house you picked up cheap during our >bust, etc.... all could be lost because of one disease. Even >that fast car! So it's pointless to plan for all of those >things and not focus on this insurance issue. > >This is the true tyranny of the American system. If you are a >full-time employee, you get free or nearly free medical >coverage. But if you leave employment, you only get Cobra >(which by the way if you are gay, it does NOT cover your >partner, because it's a Federal program and as you probably >know, the Feds only recognize the existence of gay people in >one context: you can't serve in the Army), which lasts 18 >months (plus 18 more covered by California). Once that time >expires, you are on your own. And if you are now 50, forget >about getting medical insurance. This in turn will force you to >take full time work to get coverage. But guess what: hi-tech >firms want to hire 50 year olds about as much as medical >insurance companies want to cover them! > >So my advice is to think very carefully about this issue. Don't >just assume that "if I need it I can get it". That's like >saying "I won't buy fire insurance until my house burns down." >Surely you don't think the insurance companies are that stupid, >do you? > >Good luck, > >Rod Llewellyn > > >_______________________________________________ >Baypiggies mailing list >Baypiggies at python.org >To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Steve Piercy Web Site Builder Soquel, CA From roderick at sanfransystems.com Thu Feb 17 01:39:08 2011 From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:39:08 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Med Insurance, Self Employment, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D5C6E2C.5020604@sanfransystems.com> I totally agree with Wai Yip. This may be slightly off topic of course, but it's something to think about. Now here's another twist. If you form your own company, for example a Limited Liability Company (LLC), or a C-corp (not recommended unless you REALLY know what you're doing), and you have at least 2 operating members (i.e., owners/managers), by California law, the insurance companies CANNOT deny you coverage based on preexisting medical conditions! They CAN deny you coverage based on the financial "health" of your firm: typically you must make something like $25,000 I think in gross revenue (you don't have to turn a profit - GM went bankrupt but you bet their insurer didn't cancel them, as long as they paid the premiums!). This is in fact how my partner and I got covered, as we were both denied individual coverage. So if you can form a 2-person company, this is a good way to go. As a contractor, most firms want a corp-to-corp relationship anyway. They consider filing form 1099s dangerous, as the IRS has been known to challenge individual contractors, claiming that they are in fact employees and that the employer is just trying to cheat the IRS out of some tax money. With a corporate form (by that I'm including LLCs and C-corps, and S-corps), you get some limitation of liability. It's not total... there is the "piercing the veil" business that, for example, doctors routinely face. But I strongly advise anybody who is setting out on the contractor road to strongly consider forming an LLC. It is taxed like a partnership. The LLC itself pays no federal or state taxes (although California will charge you $800 per year and a few miscellaneous fees, and San Francisco has a half-percent gross receipts tax, so if you pull in $150,000 per year, SF will ding you for $750). Instead the profit from the LLC flows directly onto the tax forms of the owners. Furthermore, if you have two or more owners (needed for the medical insurance issue), you have a lot of flexibility about assigning the revenue to each owner. I'm not an accountant, so research this stuff on your own, I'm not qualified really to give this type of advice.... but I'm giving it anyway lol. Now group plan insurance coverage, which is what the corporate insurance is, is typically more expensive than individual plans. So if you can get an individual plan now, my advice is to get it and stick with it, even if it seems like a waste of money. Concerning Elizabeth Leddy's experience: I'm glad you weren't mashed up worse in the bike accident. (I bike myself quite a bit!). Yes Anthem is evil but I did go with them as the others were WAY more expensive for group coverage. But yes don't cheap out entirely. You were in a sense "lucky" that it didn't cost $100,000 or more. People who haven't had major illnesses don't realize how unbelievably expensive medical care can be. The insurer usually doesn't mind that much paying for an accident; they generally only happen once, and when you're recovered, that's often the end of it. It's those lingering diseases that really ring up the charges and force you to sell your house and all. As far as the medical insurance reform bill is concerned, it's something like 1,700 pages and no I haven't read it. Obviously the Republicans want to eliminate it, and they have a good chance to do so. Even if that doesn't happen, the bill's effects are difficult to predict. For example, it would set up insurance exchanges, but would that really mean that older or sicker people would be able to get coverage? What would mandate that? Not clear. Would you be guaranteed coverage, but not guaranteed a price, so that yes you could buy coverage but it would cost $100,000 per year? ... as Anatole France said, "The poor must work for this, in presence of the majestic quality of the law which prohibits the wealthy as well as the poor from sleeping under the bridges, from begging in the streets, and from stealing bread." Again some unsought advice: don't depend on the American government for anything, unless you are a rich corporation.... then it's party time. Too bad it's so cold in Canada. - Rod L. From herbert at albinen.com Thu Feb 17 08:30:11 2011 From: herbert at albinen.com (Herbert Pfennig) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 23:30:11 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] setup.py of the _future_ Message-ID: <20110217073011.GA28011@ironport.com> Hi All, I am working on a test framework and have been trying to get a good grasp on the direction I should take with packaging my project. Essentially the things that I would like to support are as follows: - Have multiple subpackages along with a core package that can be installed separately (kind of like twisted, zope, scipy, etc) - Be able to install custom noseplugins (setuptools has an easy way to do this) - Be able to install console_scripts entry points. - Avoid creating eggs. Basically "pip install" from source control. The trouble I am having is trying to figure out what tools I should use (e.g. setuptools, distutils, distribute) and the approach I should take. For example, do I take the twisted approach and write a custom distutils wrapper that I run from a single setup.py. Or, instead, do I take the zope approach and go with 'namespace_packages', creating a setup.py for each subpackage in my source tree? My sense, after having googled about this for about 3 hours, is that things are converging on a pip/distutils2 solution in the future. If that is the case, is there a preferred way to tackle the _multiple_ packages problem? Something simpler? Btw, I have just started using pip and am very impressed with its support for virtualenv and the ability to install from VCS. It basically got me thinking about not needing to go the egg route because I could possibly just manage everything from mercurial. Anyways, any pointers in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, ~hp From anfrind at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 09:46:07 2011 From: anfrind at gmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 00:46:07 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] setup.py of the _future_ In-Reply-To: <20110217073011.GA28011@ironport.com> References: <20110217073011.GA28011@ironport.com> Message-ID: I don't have all of the answers, but maybe this will help... On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Herbert Pfennig wrote: > I am working on a test framework and have been trying to get > a good grasp on the direction I should take with packaging my > project. Essentially the things that I would like to support are as > follows: > > - Have multiple subpackages along with a core package that can be > ?installed separately (kind of like twisted, zope, scipy, etc) We did something like this at my company. We ship a "PARC" (Python ARChive) installer, which is a Python script with a really long base64-encoded string representing a tarball with several RPM's in it (one for our product plus all of our dependencies), and the necessary logic to install them using yum. This works especially well if you want to be able to easily install on a computer that might have limited network access and minimal pre-installed software, although it helps if you know in advance what package management tools the software will be installed on (our customers use Red Hat Enterprise almost exclusively). Theoretically, you could adapt the same idea to any collection of installable packages, with any package management system. -- Lincoln Peters From brent.tubbs at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 18:18:23 2011 From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com (Brent Tubbs) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 09:18:23 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] setup.py of the _future_ In-Reply-To: References: <20110217073011.GA28011@ironport.com> Message-ID: pip has support for "bundles" of packages that are balled up and installed together. I haven't gotten around to trying it yet but it might do what you need. See http://pip.openplans.org/#bundles On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Lincoln Peters wrote: > I don't have all of the answers, but maybe this will help... > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Herbert Pfennig wrote: >> I am working on a test framework and have been trying to get >> a good grasp on the direction I should take with packaging my >> project. Essentially the things that I would like to support are as >> follows: >> >> - Have multiple subpackages along with a core package that can be >> ?installed separately (kind of like twisted, zope, scipy, etc) > > We did something like this at my company. ?We ship a "PARC" (Python > ARChive) installer, which is a Python script with a really long > base64-encoded string representing a tarball with several RPM's in it > (one for our product plus all of our dependencies), and the necessary > logic to install them using yum. ?This works especially well if you > want to be able to easily install on a computer that might have > limited network access and minimal pre-installed software, although it > helps if you know in advance what package management tools the > software will be installed on (our customers use Red Hat Enterprise > almost exclusively). > > Theoretically, you could adapt the same idea to any collection of > installable packages, with any package management system. > > > -- > Lincoln Peters > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From herbert at albinen.com Thu Feb 17 19:00:04 2011 From: herbert at albinen.com (Herbert Pfennig) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:00:04 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] setup.py of the _future_ In-Reply-To: References: <20110217073011.GA28011@ironport.com> Message-ID: <20110217180004.GA28937@ironport.com> On 2011.02.17 00:46:07 -0800, Lincoln Peters wrote: > I don't have all of the answers, but maybe this will help... > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Herbert Pfennig wrote: > > I am working on a test framework and have been trying to get > > a good grasp on the direction I should take with packaging my > > project. Essentially the things that I would like to support are as > > follows: > > > > - Have multiple subpackages along with a core package that can be > > ?installed separately (kind of like twisted, zope, scipy, etc) > > We did something like this at my company. We ship a "PARC" (Python > ARChive) installer, which is a Python script with a really long > base64-encoded string representing a tarball with several RPM's in it > (one for our product plus all of our dependencies), and the necessary > logic to install them using yum. This works especially well if you > want to be able to easily install on a computer that might have > limited network access and minimal pre-installed software, although it > helps if you know in advance what package management tools the > software will be installed on (our customers use Red Hat Enterprise > almost exclusively). > > Theoretically, you could adapt the same idea to any collection of > installable packages, with any package management system. Thank you for the tip. I will look into this. However, even though we are mainly a unix shop, there are all kinds of flavors of *nix platforms that I need to support. Hence sticking to installing from source seems the easiest. ~hp From cappy2112 at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 02:17:40 2011 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 17:17:40 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] RabbitMQ Message-ID: Is anyone on this list using RabbitMQ with Python? If so, would you be interested in doing a presentation on it? From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Feb 18 21:37:29 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 12:37:29 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon and PostPyCon Message-ID: PyCon is in just a few weeks. And, after PyCon, we all get together (for those who couldn't go), watch the videos from the conference, have our own hack sessions and just bring some of the fun back. This meetup is where you sign up: http://www.meetup.com/SF-Post-PyCon-Videos/ It's a meetup that only meets once per year. No new date, time or location has yet been picked for this year's meeting. I'm only starting to get the word out ahead of time. If you're interested, sign up on the meetup -- it's free. Cheers, Glen -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn at emersonstreetpartners.com Sat Feb 19 00:15:29 2011 From: glenn at emersonstreetpartners.com (Glenn Winokur) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 15:15:29 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Syapse is hiring!! Message-ID: Syapse is hiring!! Our SaaS applications are transforming biomedical product development. Syapse is looking to hire Web Application Developers who are passionate about building great software applications that can make a difference in people's lives. At Syapse, you will be helping biomedical companies bring therapies to patients faster. Our main technology stack is HTML, Javascript, Apache, Python / Django, and MySQL. We utilize semantic technologies and biomedical ontologies to deliver scientifically intelligent web applications. There is more information about the positions, and information about how to apply, here: Syapse.com/jobs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cappy2112 at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 04:57:22 2011 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:57:22 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Who wants to review "Django JavaScript Integration: AJAX and jQuery" from Packt Publications ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric and everyone, Sorry for the delay. Packt finally got back to me on this (they are really slow to reply). They are creating an account for us to use the discounts, but you'll have to buy through their website. On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Eric Walstad wrote: > Hi Tony, > > I don't have time to review this one now but I would still love to > read it. ?Does Packt give BayPIGgies folk a discount on books? ?I > didn't see one on our website: > http://baypiggies.net/index_html/user-group-association-program > > Thanks, > > Eric. > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Tony Cappellini wrote: >> >> Hello Everyone, >> >> Packt Publications is looking for someone to review >> https://www.packtpub.com/django-javascript-integration-ajax-and-jquery/book >> >> If you're interested in reviewing this book, please reply off-list. >> >> >> Thanks > From wescpy at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 01:51:16 2011 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 16:51:16 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Hello Bay Piggies, interested in a PyPy talk? In-Reply-To: <201102021424.p12EOJEG025796@theraft.openend.se> References: <201101252214.p0PMEC8h012180@theraft.openend.se> <201102021424.p12EOJEG025796@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: tony, laura, unfortunately, i don't think the Google TechTalk will be open to the public due to the logistics involved. too many people, not enough security nor Google employees, so the stanford one is the best option unless a noisebridge or other alternative can be made available. has anyone checked HackerDojo? -wesley On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Laura Creighton wrote: > I wanted to let everybody know that Armin's talk at Stanford will be > open to the public. ?It's on March the 2nd at 4:15. ?See: > http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ > > There will be a Google tech talk on the 7th at 11:30 at the Googleplex. > I do not know as of yet whether this talk will be open to the public. > > Thank you, > Laura Creighton -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Python Web Development with Django", Addison Wesley, (c) 2009 ? ? http://withdjango.com wesley.chun : wescpy-gmail.com : @wescpy python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From lac at openend.se Tue Feb 22 06:31:33 2011 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:31:33 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Hello Bay Piggies, interested in a PyPy talk? In-Reply-To: Message from wesley chun of "Mon, 21 Feb 2011 16:51:16 PST." References: <201101252214.p0PMEC8h012180@theraft.openend.se> <201102021424.p12EOJEG025796@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: <201102220531.p1M5VXj6020477@theraft.openend.se> In a message of Mon, 21 Feb 2011 16:51:16 PST, wesley chun writes: >tony, laura, > >unfortunately, i don't think the Google TechTalk will be open to the >public due to the logistics involved. too many people, not enough >security nor Google employees, so the stanford one is the best option >unless a noisebridge or other alternative can be made available. has >anyone checked HackerDojo? > >-wesley We're giving a public talk at Yelp on Thursday March the 3rd, and having 2 days of mini-sprint and 'just walk up and talk to us' at noisebridge. It would have been nice to have another public talk in the south bay, but it just didn't work out this way. But with you (wesley) wanting us to give a talk on the 1st, we're going to be very busy little beavers with something pypy related happening every day that we are in California except the night we land, and the day we fly to Atlanta. Laura From jon at objectevolution.com Tue Feb 22 07:49:51 2011 From: jon at objectevolution.com (Jon Wynacht) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 22:49:51 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Web/iOS Engineers for Startup Message-ID: <235EF663-BE46-4B28-954A-E6DDB0BF5E87@objectevolution.com> Posting for a friend. ---------------------------- Who are we? A social network start-up looking for web and iPhone engineers. Several positions available for smart, creative folk who want to build something amazing, something beneficial for the day-to-day social networking user. Who are you? You love building things, you love creating things. You're an engineer first, so language choice shouldn't be much of an issue to you. You look at the social networking landscape and feel that beyond the buzz, there needs to be something more, something better, something that takes all this data and makes a difference in a person's life. Maybe you've had experience building scalable web applications before and want to do it again. Or perhaps it's iPhone apps that hold your interest. Either way, be well-versed in the current technologies driving those spaces and know when to use them and when not to use them. What do we want you to know? This is by no means an exhaustive list. Just some things we are talking about using/doing: - Python for the web application development but there is always room for Ruby, Haskell, Erlang. - JavaScript: Know it, love it. - RESTful architectures and web standards. - Pyramid/Pylons, Rails, jQuery. - MySQL, Redis and other NoSQL solutions. - iOS development experience. - Every single useful social networking API available today. - Data mining skills will be handy. Please send resumes and questions to: inimij at gmail.com From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Feb 22 16:05:57 2011 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 07:05:57 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Web/iOS Engineers for Startup In-Reply-To: <235EF663-BE46-4B28-954A-E6DDB0BF5E87@objectevolution.com> References: <235EF663-BE46-4B28-954A-E6DDB0BF5E87@objectevolution.com> Message-ID: <20110222150557.GC18890@panix.com> On Mon, Feb 21, 2011, Jon Wynacht wrote: > > Posting for a friend. Please read and follow the guidelines: http://baypiggies.net/job-listings We specially want someone from the hiring company to do the posting, and that person needs to subscribe to the list. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Programming language design is not a rational science. Most reasoning about it is at best rationalization of gut feelings, and at worst plain wrong." --GvR, python-ideas, 2009-03-01 From jon at objectevolution.com Tue Feb 22 16:10:09 2011 From: jon at objectevolution.com (Jon Wynacht) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 07:10:09 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Web/iOS Engineers for Startup In-Reply-To: <20110222150557.GC18890@panix.com> References: <235EF663-BE46-4B28-954A-E6DDB0BF5E87@objectevolution.com> <20110222150557.GC18890@panix.com> Message-ID: Agh, sorry. That's what I get for staying up late. Should I have him subscribe and repost? On Feb 22, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Aahz wrote: > On Mon, Feb 21, 2011, Jon Wynacht wrote: >> >> Posting for a friend. > > Please read and follow the guidelines: > > http://baypiggies.net/job-listings > > We specially want someone from the hiring company to do the posting, and > that person needs to subscribe to the list. > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "Programming language design is not a rational science. Most reasoning > about it is at best rationalization of gut feelings, and at worst plain > wrong." --GvR, python-ideas, 2009-03-01 From delia.bailey at yougov.com Tue Feb 22 20:15:01 2011 From: delia.bailey at yougov.com (Delia Bailey) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 20:15:01 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Statistical Programmer Message-ID: STATISTICAL PROGRAMMER We are seeking one or more programmers for our Analytics Group, based in Palo Alto. We are looking for people who combine strong programming skills with experience performing statistical analyses on large datasets. Work in a fast-paced and intellectually stimulating environment where technically sophisticated solutions to marketing, financial, and political problems are developed. You will be involved in large scale statistical analysis projects. Responsibilities will include the design, development, implementation, and maintenance of software for statistical analysis, including statistical graphics and Web-based delivery. These require creativity and ingenuity to solve. The ideal candidate should have the following qualifications: -- Minimum of 5 years programming experience in Python and other languages, and you're always eager to try new ones. Good design and engineering skills. -- B.S. in computer science, statistics, or other relevant scientific area. We care more about your programming skills than your schooling. -- Experience with statistical applications (especially R). -- Knowledge of modern statistical computing, especially MCMC. -- Expert with Linux/Unix systems and XHTML/CSS/Javascript/Django -- Database expertise, programming with SQL, Hadoop -- Experience with source code control tools such as Mercurial and Subversion YouGov Polimetrix is the North American unit of YouGov PLC, with operations in the US, UK, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Dubai, and Saudi Arabia. We have U.S. offices in Palo Alto, CA, New York, NY, Waterbury, CT, Lawrenceville, NJ, and Washington, DC. Compensation: depends on experience and qualifications Interested candidates should submit a cover letter and resume. Contact with any questions: delia.bailey at yougov.com or doug.rivers at yougov.com --------- Delia Bailey Director of Analytics [cid:image86b1e7.png at 6bf0cd97.77c1417b] 285 Hamilton Avenue Suite 200 Palo Alto, CA 94301 T: 650-462-8010 | F: 650-462-8422 delia.bailey at yougov.com http://www.yougov.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image86b1e7.png at 6bf0cd97.77c1417b Type: image/png Size: 12846 bytes Desc: image86b1e7.png at 6bf0cd97.77c1417b URL: From kpguy1975 at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 22:25:40 2011 From: kpguy1975 at gmail.com (Vikram K) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 16:25:40 -0500 Subject: [Baypiggies] csv module question Message-ID: Consider the following python code which works perfectly: fout = open ('1A_out.csv','w') writer = csv.writer(fout) writer.writerow(('Protein Name','gi Number', 'Peptide', 'Residue', 'Position in Protein', 'length', 'Window'')) I am writing the values in the csv file using a loop. Everything works fine. Now in each row of the csv file i generated i need to append 36 values in 36 separate fields which i have captured in a dictionary data type. Will i have to write out all the extra 36 fields names in the following line or is there some better way?: writer.writerow(('Protein Name','gi Number', 'Peptide', 'Residue', 'Position in Protein', 'length', 'Window'')) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Feb 22 23:03:54 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 14:03:54 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] csv module question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vikram, Do I understand the question? You have a particular dictionary, as such: >>> x={'Protein Name': 'PE2R2_HUMAN', 'gi Number': '38258920', 'etc': 'blah'} And, you want to get the field names for printing in the header. Is something like this helpful: >>> print x.keys() ['etc', 'gi Number', 'Protein Name'] (Notice that the order of these keys are not going to always be the same each time): writer.writerow(x.keys()) If this isn't helpful, can you make a little snippet of code so that we can use that to define the problem. Cheers, Glen On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Vikram K wrote: > Consider the following python code which works perfectly: > > fout = open ('1A_out.csv','w') > > writer = csv.writer(fout) > > writer.writerow(('Protein Name','gi Number', 'Peptide', 'Residue', > 'Position in Protein', 'length', 'Window'')) > > I am writing the values in the csv file using a loop. Everything works > fine. > > Now in each row of the csv file i generated i need to append 36 values in > 36 separate fields which i have captured in a dictionary data type. Will i > have to write out all the extra 36 fields names in the following line or is > there some better way?: > > writer.writerow(('Protein Name','gi Number', 'Peptide', 'Residue', > 'Position in Protein', 'length', 'Window'')) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Tue Feb 22 23:16:19 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 14:16:19 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] csv module question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vikram, I took another stab at this, sorting the headers and the data by the keys. This makes the columns in the order of the columns: data = ( {'Protein Name': 'PE2R2_HUMAN', 'gi Number': '38258920', 'etc': 'blah'}, {'Protein Name': 'APAF_HUMAN', 'gi Number': '20141188', 'etc': 'blah2'} ) headers = sorted(data[0].keys()) writer.writerow(headers) for protein in data: row = [protein[h] for h in headers] writer.writerow(row) On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Vikram K wrote: > Consider the following python code which works perfectly: > > fout = open ('1A_out.csv','w') > > writer = csv.writer(fout) > > writer.writerow(('Protein Name','gi Number', 'Peptide', 'Residue', > 'Position in Protein', 'length', 'Window'')) > > I am writing the values in the csv file using a loop. Everything works > fine. > > Now in each row of the csv file i generated i need to append 36 values in > 36 separate fields which i have captured in a dictionary data type. Will i > have to write out all the extra 36 fields names in the following line or is > there some better way?: > > writer.writerow(('Protein Name','gi Number', 'Peptide', 'Residue', > 'Position in Protein', 'length', 'Window'')) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Tue Feb 22 23:26:24 2011 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 14:26:24 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Web/iOS Engineers for Startup In-Reply-To: References: <235EF663-BE46-4B28-954A-E6DDB0BF5E87@objectevolution.com> <20110222150557.GC18890@panix.com> Message-ID: <20110222222623.GA27566@panix.com> On Tue, Feb 22, 2011, Jon Wynacht wrote: > On Feb 22, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Aahz wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 21, 2011, Jon Wynacht wrote: >>> >>> Posting for a friend. >> >> Please read and follow the guidelines: >> >> http://baypiggies.net/job-listings >> >> We specially want someone from the hiring company to do the posting, and >> that person needs to subscribe to the list. > > Agh, sorry. That's what I get for staying up late. > > Should I have him subscribe and repost? No need at this point IMO (though he definitely should subscribe if he might want to repost next month). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Programming language design is not a rational science. Most reasoning about it is at best rationalization of gut feelings, and at worst plain wrong." --GvR, python-ideas, 2009-03-01 From jason at mischievous.org Wed Feb 23 01:26:30 2011 From: jason at mischievous.org (Jason Culverhouse) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 16:26:30 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] csv module question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <504E924F-AD46-4F5B-8529-A245E9EB1D91@mischievous.org> On Feb 22, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > Vikram, > I took another stab at this, sorting the headers and the data by the keys. This makes the columns in the order of the columns: > > data = ( > {'Protein Name': 'PE2R2_HUMAN', 'gi Number': '38258920', 'etc': 'blah'}, > {'Protein Name': 'APAF_HUMAN', 'gi Number': '20141188', 'etc': 'blah2'} > ) > > headers = sorted(data[0].keys()) > # ^ reuse.... # use http://docs.python.org/library/csv.html#csv.DictWriter writer = csv.DictWriter(out, keys) for protein in data: writer.writerow(protein) Jason > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Vikram K wrote: > Consider the following python code which works perfectly: > > fout = open ('1A_out.csv','w') > > writer = csv.writer(fout) > > writer.writerow(('Protein Name','gi Number', 'Peptide', 'Residue', > 'Position in Protein', 'length', 'Window'')) > > I am writing the values in the csv file using a loop. Everything works fine. > > Now in each row of the csv file i generated i need to append 36 values in 36 separate fields which i have captured in a dictionary data type. Will i have to write out all the extra 36 fields names in the following line or is there some better way?: > > writer.writerow(('Protein Name','gi Number', 'Peptide', 'Residue', > 'Position in Protein', 'length', 'Window'')) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. > > -- Goethe > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at theslimmers.net Wed Feb 23 02:20:03 2011 From: max at theslimmers.net (Max Slimmer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 17:20:03 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] csv module question In-Reply-To: <504E924F-AD46-4F5B-8529-A245E9EB1D91@mischievous.org> References: <504E924F-AD46-4F5B-8529-A245E9EB1D91@mischievous.org> Message-ID: >From the documentation: DictWriter objects have the following public method: DictWriter.writeheader() Write a row with the field names (as specified in the constructor). max On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 4:26 PM, Jason Culverhouse wrote: > > On Feb 22, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > Vikram, > ?? I took another stab at this, sorting the headers and the data by the > keys. This makes the columns in the order of the columns: > data = ( > ?? ?{'Protein Name': 'PE2R2_HUMAN', 'gi Number': '38258920', 'etc': 'blah'}, > ?? ?{'Protein Name': 'APAF_HUMAN', 'gi Number': '20141188', 'etc': 'blah2'} > ) > headers = sorted(data[0].keys()) > > # ^ reuse.... > # use?http://docs.python.org/library/csv.html#csv.DictWriter > writer = csv.DictWriter(out, keys) > for protein in data: > ?? ?writer.writerow(protein) > Jason > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Vikram K wrote: >> >> Consider the following python code which works perfectly: >> >> fout = open ('1A_out.csv','w') >> >> writer = csv.writer(fout) >> >> writer.writerow(('Protein Name','gi Number', 'Peptide', 'Residue', >> ???????????????? 'Position in Protein', 'length', 'Window'')) >> >> I am writing the values in the csv file using a loop. Everything works >> fine. >> >> Now in each row of the csv file i generated i need to append 36 values in >> 36 separate fields which i have captured in a dictionary data type. Will i >> have to write out all the extra 36 fields names in the following line or is >> there some better way?: >> >> writer.writerow(('Protein Name','gi Number', 'Peptide', 'Residue', >> ???????????????? 'Position in Protein', 'length', 'Window'')) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter > least. > > -- Goethe > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From ken at seehart.com Wed Feb 23 22:46:48 2011 From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:46:48 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Message-ID: <4D658048.8030009@seehart.com> I've been away from baypiggies for a while. Do we still get together for dinner these days? Anything planned for tomorrow? Ken From glen at glenjarvis.com Thu Feb 24 03:07:04 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:07:04 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question Message-ID: I have been managing several environments that have Django. I'm using virtualenv and pip and have a question about using activate_this.py twice (one environment "overriding" the other). However, I have to give some background so you understand why I'm asking: We use Django, and have our settings.py file stored in a repository. However, as there are different environments that this is used in, some people would need to make changes to their settings file. To keep this clean so there can be customized fields, we did this. In the settings.py file (that is in the repository), we have the following line (at the very bottom of the file): # LOCAL SETTINGS ############################################################# # Do not change/move the following line. Instead, see the comments in # example_local_settings.py ############################################################################### from local_settings import * And then, a local_settings.py file would redefine (and overwrite) any settings that were customized for the environment. The local_settings.py file is not checked into the repository (in fact, it's svn:ignore'd). So, for example, if I wanted to do some experimenting and checked out a fresh copy of the repository, I would want to tell django to use my TEMPLATE_DIRS instead of the default ones, I may do something like this in my local_settings.py file: TEMPLATE_DIRS = ( '/home/glenjarvis/some/path/to/freshly/checked/out/templates', ) Then, Django would work for my local environment without touching the original settings.py file. I wouldn't have to change any file that is in the repository (except maybe for the templates in question) and I wouldn't accidentally overwrite the settings.py file and have it accidentally make it into production. With all of that said, I'm now poised to ask my question :) We need to activate the "activate_this.py" script to activate the virtual env environment. This is done with this snippet of code, directly from the virtualenv documentation: activate_this = '/path/to/env/bin/activate_this.py' execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) We typically leave the settings as they would be in production, and overwrite them in our testing, local development and other environments. So, I have written this in the top of the Django settings.py file (so it is sete in production): I would do something like this: # Activate with virtualenv first ENVIRONMENT = 'production' activate_this = '/path/to/our/software/envs/base/%s/bin/activate_this.py' % ENVIRONMENT execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) To override this, I would typically have the following in my local settings.py file: ENVIRONMENT = 'glens_example_test_3' activate_this = '/path/to/our/software/envs/base/%s/bin/activate_this.py' % ENVIRONMENT execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) My questions are the consequences of "activating" a virtualenv when another is already activated. I would like to be safe and do the equivalent of "deactivate" (as we do with shell virtual environments), before activating this again for any special cases where we override the original. Again, we don't want to change our main settings.py file unless it really is a production environment change. BTW, I don't see any immediate errors, but I want to be certain that there are no hidden "gotchas" for down the road.... As an alternate approach, we could set ENVIRONMENT and activate_this variables in the settings (over-writing as above), but only do the following in manage.py: .... if __name__ == "__main__": execute_manager(settings) execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=settings.activate_this)) However, I don't remember if manage.py is used at all by mod_wsgi or mod_python. As a side note, I wish Django had more of a concept of different 'environments' so this could be managed without feeling as if we're "hacking" into Django sometimes. Simeon or anyone on BayPIGgies, have you seen this situation before? Is it safe to just activate_this twice with a different environment than the original? Where in Django do you incorporate your establishment for virtualenv? Thanks in advance, Cheers, Glen -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elizabeth.leddy at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 03:15:57 2011 From: elizabeth.leddy at gmail.com (Elizabeth Leddy) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:15:57 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Glen - I don't *think* there should be any consequences for doing that but until someone has a more thoughtful answer... Have you considered buildout? I use buildout for all of my python projects now (including Django) and then I use a different cfg for dev and production. While I'm sure there are people who will argue against this (please do!) I have stopped using virtualenv entirely in exchange for buildout (version 1.5 and up). You can use them together to be safe of course but I found it wasn't needed. Liz On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > I have been managing several environments that have Django. I'm using > virtualenv and pip and have a question about using activate_this.py twice > (one environment "overriding" the other). > > However, I have to give some background so you understand why I'm asking: > > We use Django, and have our settings.py file stored in a repository. > However, as there are different environments that this is used in, some > people would need to make changes to their settings file. To keep this clean > so there can be customized fields, we did this. > > In the settings.py file (that is in the repository), we have the following > line (at the very bottom of the file): > > # LOCAL SETTINGS > ############################################################# > # Do not change/move the following line. Instead, see the comments in > # example_local_settings.py > > ############################################################################### > from local_settings import * > > > And then, a local_settings.py file would redefine (and overwrite) any > settings that were customized for the environment. The local_settings.py > file is not checked into the repository (in fact, it's svn:ignore'd). > > So, for example, if I wanted to do some experimenting and checked out a > fresh copy of the repository, I would want to tell django to use my > TEMPLATE_DIRS instead of the default ones, I may do something like this in > my local_settings.py file: > > TEMPLATE_DIRS = ( > '/home/glenjarvis/some/path/to/freshly/checked/out/templates', > ) > > Then, Django would work for my local environment without touching the > original settings.py file. I wouldn't have to change any file that is in the > repository (except maybe for the templates in question) and I wouldn't > accidentally overwrite the settings.py file and have it accidentally make it > into production. > > With all of that said, I'm now poised to ask my question :) > > We need to activate the "activate_this.py" script to activate the virtual > env environment. This is done with this snippet of code, directly from the > virtualenv documentation: > > activate_this = '/path/to/env/bin/activate_this.py' > execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) > > > We typically leave the settings as they would be in production, and > overwrite them in our testing, local development and other environments. So, > I have written this in the top of the Django settings.py file (so it is sete > in production): > > I would do something like this: > > # Activate with virtualenv first > ENVIRONMENT = 'production' > activate_this = '/path/to/our/software/envs/base/%s/bin/activate_this.py' > % ENVIRONMENT > execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) > > To override this, I would typically have the following in my local > settings.py file: > > ENVIRONMENT = 'glens_example_test_3' > activate_this = '/path/to/our/software/envs/base/%s/bin/activate_this.py' > % ENVIRONMENT > execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) > > My questions are the consequences of "activating" a virtualenv when another > is already activated. I would like to be safe and do the equivalent of > "deactivate" (as we do with shell virtual environments), before activating > this again for any special cases where we override the original. Again, we > don't want to change our main settings.py file unless it really is a > production environment change. > > BTW, I don't see any immediate errors, but I want to be certain that there > are no hidden "gotchas" for down the road.... > > As an alternate approach, we could set ENVIRONMENT and activate_this > variables in the settings (over-writing as above), but only do the following > in manage.py: > > .... > if __name__ == "__main__": > execute_manager(settings) > execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=settings.activate_this)) > > > However, I don't remember if manage.py is used at all by mod_wsgi or > mod_python. > > As a side note, I wish Django had more of a concept of different > 'environments' so this could be managed without feeling as if we're > "hacking" into Django sometimes. > > Simeon or anyone on BayPIGgies, have you seen this situation before? Is it > safe to just activate_this twice with a different environment than the > original? Where in Django do you incorporate your establishment for > virtualenv? > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Cheers, > > > > Glen > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter > least. > > -- Goethe > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at ericwalstad.com Thu Feb 24 05:26:07 2011 From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 20:26:07 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forgot to send to the list, too. EW On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Eric Walstad wrote: > Hey Glen > > What's worked well for us is to have a base settings file > (settings_base.py) which contains the common settings. ?Then at the > top of settings_stage.py, settings_prod.py, settings_ew.py, etc, > there's a > from settings_base import * > > Doing it this way puts all the common settings into the current > context, something you don't get when you put the import at the bottom > of the file. ?That's handy when you want to, say, add an installed app > like django debug toolbar into your development workstation's settings > file. ?The production environment would use > DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE=projectname.settings_prod, staging would use > DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE=projectname.settings_stage, etc. ?The > settings_base.py would not be used directly. > > Also, have you played with the excellent virtualenvwrapper, by Dough > Hellman? ?You get a 'workon' script (workon myvirtualenv) that > activates your virtualenv as well as a postactivate scritpt that is > called after virtualenv activation. ?I typically use the postactivate > script to setup my DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE and other project specifics. > ?Virtualenvwrapper has many other helper scripts. ?I recommend it. > > Best regards, > > Eric. > > On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> I have been managing several environments that have Django. I'm using >> virtualenv and pip and have a question about using activate_this.py twice >> (one environment "overriding" the other). >> However, I have to give some background so you understand why I'm asking: >> We use Django, and have our settings.py file stored in a repository. >> However, as there are different environments that this is used in, some >> people would need to make changes to their settings file. To keep this clean >> so there can be customized fields, we did this. >> In the settings.py file (that is in the repository), we have the following >> line (at the very bottom of the file): >> # LOCAL SETTINGS >> ############################################################# >> # Do not change/move the following line. Instead, see the comments in >> # example_local_settings.py >> ############################################################################### >> from local_settings import * >> >> And then, a local_settings.py file would redefine (and overwrite) any >> settings that were customized for the environment. The local_settings.py >> file is not checked into the repository (in fact, it's svn:ignore'd). >> So, for example, if I wanted to do some experimenting and checked out a >> fresh copy of the repository, I would want to tell django to use my >> TEMPLATE_DIRS instead of the default ones, I may do something like this in >> my local_settings.py file: >> TEMPLATE_DIRS = ( >> ?? ?'/home/glenjarvis/some/path/to/freshly/checked/out/templates', >> ) >> Then, Django would work for my local environment without touching the >> original settings.py file. I wouldn't have to change any file that is in the >> repository (except maybe for the templates in question) and I wouldn't >> accidentally overwrite the settings.py file and have it?accidentally?make it >> into production. >> With all of that said, I'm now poised to ask my question :) >> We need to activate the "activate_this.py" script to activate the virtual >> env environment. This is done with this snippet of code, directly from the >> virtualenv documentation: >> >> activate_this = '/path/to/env/bin/activate_this.py' >> execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) >> >> We typically leave the settings as they would be in production, and >> overwrite them in our testing, local development and other environments. So, >> I have written this in the top of the Django settings.py file (so it is sete >> in production): >> I would do something like this: >> # Activate with virtualenv first >> ENVIRONMENT = 'production' >> activate_this = '/path/to/our/software/envs/base/%s/bin/activate_this.py' >> %?ENVIRONMENT >> execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) >> To override this, I would typically have the following in my local >> settings.py file: >> ENVIRONMENT?= 'glens_example_test_3' >> activate_this = '/path/to/our/software/envs/base/%s/bin/activate_this.py' >> %?ENVIRONMENT >> execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) >> My questions are the consequences of "activating" a virtualenv when another >> is already activated. I would like to be safe and do the equivalent of >> "deactivate" (as we do with shell virtual environments), before activating >> this again for any special cases where we override the original. Again, we >> don't want to change our ?main settings.py file unless it really is a >> production environment change. >> BTW, I don't see any immediate errors, but I want to be certain that there >> are no hidden "gotchas" for down the road.... >> As an alternate approach, we could set ENVIRONMENT and activate_this >> variables in the settings (over-writing as above), but only do the following >> in manage.py: >> .... >> if __name__ == "__main__": >> ?? ?execute_manager(settings) >> ?? ?execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=settings.activate_this)) >> >> However, I don't remember if manage.py is used at all by mod_wsgi or >> mod_python. >> As a side note,?I wish Django had more of a concept of different >> 'environments' so this could be managed without feeling as if we're >> "hacking" into Django sometimes. >> Simeon or anyone on BayPIGgies, have you seen this situation before? Is it >> safe to just activate_this twice with a different environment than the >> original? Where in Django do you incorporate your establishment for >> virtualenv? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Glen >> -- >> Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter >> least. >> -- Goethe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From jimmy at retzlaff.com Thu Feb 24 07:31:39 2011 From: jimmy at retzlaff.com (Jimmy Retzlaff) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 22:31:39 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyPy Talk at Yelp with Armin Rigo Message-ID: I know there was interest on the list about a PyPy talk from Armin Rigo while he's in town. I don't know where South Bay plans ended up, but there is a talk at Yelp next Thursday, 3/3/2011 at 6pm for those who want to venture up to San Francisco. Our building security does require an RSVP by Wednesday 3/2 at noon. Please fill out the form at: https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/yelp.com/viewform?formkey=dFpaWGJZYjQ4aUpSalBZbTVyanBETWc6MQ The San Francisco Python Meetup organizers have been nice enough to help us set this up as their official meetup for March. You can RSVP on the sfpython meetup page as well, but please try not to respond to both so we don't double count you. Yelp will be providing the space as well as food and drink. So come hang out with a bunch of Python coders from Yelp and hear Armin talk about PyPy! And while you're here, don't miss your chance to try out KegMate: http://engineeringblog.yelp.com/2010/08/yelp-makes-beer-more-fun.html Jimmy What: PyPy Talk at Yelp with Armin Rigo When: Thursday, March 3, 2011 6:00 PM Where: Yelp - 706 Mission Street in San Francisco, close to BART's Powell and Montgomery stations. The entrance is through the gates to the left of the Rochester Big & Tall on Mission. Bio: Armin Rigo is a researcher at Heinrich-Heine-Universit?t in D?sseldorf, Germany. His academic interests include Programming Languages and Implementation Techniques. He is the lead designer of the PyPy project and one of its original founders. He is also the author of Psyco, a hand-coded Just-in-Time specializing compiler for Python, which can be used transparently with 32-bit x86 versions of CPython. Since 2003 he has worked on all aspects of PyPy: its Python interpreter (written in Python), its translation toolchain (which produces C code), its garbage collectors, and its Tracing Just-in-Time compiler generator. Since the end of 2010, the Just in Time compiler generated by PyPy has outperformed Psyco, while being much more general and robust. Abstract: The PyPy project has recently gathered a lot of attention for its progress in speeding up the Python language -- it is the fastest, most compatible and most stable 'alternative? Python interpreter. No longer merely a research curiosity, PyPy is now suitable for production use. Since 2009, the PyPy project has received funding from the Eurostars Eureka program, which targets small European firms which produce research. (See: http://www.eurostars-eureka.eu/ ) We will discuss what the PyPy project has achieved, with a particular focus on the past two years' work in the area of dynamic (Just-in-Time) interpreters: * most Python benchmarks run much faster than with CPython or Psyco * the real-world PyPy compiler toolchain itself (200 KLocs) runs twice as fast * already supports 64bit and is in the process of supporting ARM * full compatibility with CPython (more than Jython/IronPython) * full (and JIT-ed) ctypes support to call C libraries from Python * supports Stackless Python (in-progress) * new "cpyext" layer which integrates existing CPython C extensions * an experimental super-fast JIT-compilation of calls to C++ libraries The PyPy project has a blog which may be of interest. You can read it at http://morepypy.blogspot.com/ . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rami.chowdhury at merton.oxon.org Thu Feb 24 12:45:15 2011 From: rami.chowdhury at merton.oxon.org (Rami Chowdhury) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:45:15 +0000 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Eric Walstad wrote: >> Also, have you played with the excellent virtualenvwrapper, by Dough >> Hellman? ?You get a 'workon' script (workon myvirtualenv) that >> activates your virtualenv as well as a postactivate scritpt that is >> called after virtualenv activation. ?I typically use the postactivate >> script to setup my DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE and other project specifics. >> ?Virtualenvwrapper has many other helper scripts. ?I recommend it. +1 to the recommendation for virtualenvwrapper - I haven't used it in an automated way but I find it makes things much more convenient from a command-line. -- Rami Chowdhury "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice." -- Hanlon's Razor +44-7581-430-517 / +1-408-597-7068 / +88-0189-245544 From eric at ericwalstad.com Thu Feb 24 16:34:14 2011 From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 07:34:14 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Eric Walstad wrote: >>> Also, have you played with the excellent virtualenvwrapper, by Dough >>> Hellman? D'oh! Dough? no. Doug Hellmann deserves to have his name spelled correctly. Find virtualenvwrapper and many other of his very cool packages here: http://www.doughellmann.com/ Eric. From simeonf at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 16:50:39 2011 From: simeonf at gmail.com (Simeon Franklin) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 07:50:39 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >To keep this clean > so there can be customized fields, we did this. > In the settings.py file (that is in the repository), we have the following > line (at the very bottom of the file): > # LOCAL SETTINGS > from local_settings import * I think Eric Walstad already explained this but I do find the reverse pattern more flexible. If at the bottom of settings you import local_settings you can override anything in settings, but local_settings can't tell what settings are. I sometimes want to conditionally override things so using base_settings (with all the defaults) and then importing it into local_settings at the top allows me to access as well as override the defaults. It also makes it easy to run different configurations like: ./manage.py runserver --settings=settings_one > With all of that said, I'm now poised to ask my question :) > We need to activate the "activate_this.py" script to activate the virtual > env environment. This is done with this snippet of code, directly from the > virtualenv documentation: > > activate_this = '/path/to/env/bin/activate_this.py' > execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) Actually I'd say don't do this. The environment shouldn't be hard-coded into the settings file imo. If you are deploying via wsgi use wsgi's support of virtualenvs to specify the environment - and really from the python execution perspective all you really need to support a virtualenv is to put the site-packages dir of the env on your sys.path. However you achieve it I'd tend not to use the "activate_this" method in your settings file. On your local box you can use "workon mytest-env" or source mytest-env/bin/activate if you don't have Hellman's virtualenvwrapper installed. Your test and production environment should be specified as part of your server specific deployment - in a virtualhost.conf or in a app.wsgi file if at all possible. This gets away from the "double activation" issue you reference which I have to admit I haven't specifically tried. :) > As a side note,?I wish Django had more of a concept of different > 'environments' so this could be managed without feeling as if we're > "hacking" into Django sometimes. Bingo - I think that's a clue that Python runtimes and execution environments shouldn't be managed at the level of your django project. In fact the linkage should go the other way - environments manage python apps. A common case would be switching environments to get you different versions of your app - or django project in this case - and this sort of fluidity is harder to script and build if the app wants to specify by name what environment it lives in. I hope that helps - I know I'm not answering your original question :) -regards Simeon Franklin From glen at glenjarvis.com Thu Feb 24 19:35:57 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:35:57 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Simeon and Eric, Thank you for explaining the way you organize your settings. I like it *much* more than what I currently implemented. We'll still have to have a private "local_settings.py" for the developers to play in (as we can't have a different settings file for each of them). In fact, although this hasn't been testing, I really like having a settings directory with the following contents: +- manage.py +- settings +----- __init__.py +----- base.py (or possibly common.py) +----- production.py +----- test.py etc. referred to by projectname.settings.test or projectname.settings.production etc... Regardless, I can see how you avoided this situation altogether. Everyone else, Thank you! :) I always learn a lot from asking questions here. Using the command line and our environment's works perfectly -- I have some wrapper scripts that activates environments. However, there's a problem I'm trying to solve -- I can't "activate" the same environment in the Apache configuration file (or I don't seem to be successful in doing so). We don't have controller over our apache web server and the python modules. We also have mod_python (I hadn't yet been able to migrate to mod_wsgi, but am working on that after I fix this problem.. I'm working incrementally). Also, we are fixed at python2.4 The problem is that using SetEnv to set the PATH, DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE, PATH and the PythonPath in the apache conf.d/config file (which we do have control over), doesn't "seem to have the same environment" as using the virtualenv/activate. Even though I took those variables directly from the environment of an 'activated' environment. Packages are found successfully in the 'activated' environment, but not from the webserver. I even set VIRTUAL_ENV with the same result (I don't know it's significance and if it's needed). We are also frozen at Python 2.4 in the webserver and I seem to have more problems with 2.4 than I did with 2.7. Simeon, I agree 100% that this should be environment based only. In fact, I'm glad you sent me that reminder or I may have kept "plodding along" instead of stopping, taking a break and thinking of the best way to handle this. I'm going to research some more on the 'acton' answers I've gotten (I don't know how the 'acton' scripts differ from the virtualenv's 'bin/activate' scripts). I also need to remind myself to take this in small steps that can be rolled back so I don't get myself into a pickle here with a production environment. > I hope that helps - I know I'm not answering your original question :) absolutely! It helped me know how you approached this problem -- avoiding my situation all together... Thank you! :) On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Simeon Franklin wrote: > On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > >To keep this clean > > so there can be customized fields, we did this. > > In the settings.py file (that is in the repository), we have the > following > > line (at the very bottom of the file): > > # LOCAL SETTINGS > > from local_settings import * > > I think Eric Walstad already explained this but I do find the reverse > pattern more flexible. If at the bottom of settings you import > local_settings you can override anything in settings, but > local_settings can't tell what settings are. I sometimes want to > conditionally override things so using base_settings (with all the > defaults) and then importing it into local_settings at the top allows > me to access as well as override the defaults. It also makes it easy > to run different configurations like: > > ./manage.py runserver --settings=settings_one > > > With all of that said, I'm now poised to ask my question :) > > We need to activate the "activate_this.py" script to activate the virtual > > env environment. This is done with this snippet of code, directly from > the > > virtualenv documentation: > > > > activate_this = '/path/to/env/bin/activate_this.py' > > execfile(activate_this, dict(__file__=activate_this)) > > Actually I'd say don't do this. The environment shouldn't be > hard-coded into the settings file imo. If you are deploying via wsgi > use wsgi's support of virtualenvs to specify the environment - and > really from the python execution perspective all you really need to > support a virtualenv is to put the site-packages dir of the env on > your sys.path. However you achieve it I'd tend not to use the > "activate_this" method in your settings file. On your local box you > can use "workon mytest-env" or source mytest-env/bin/activate if you > don't have Hellman's virtualenvwrapper installed. Your test and > production environment should be specified as part of your server > specific deployment - in a virtualhost.conf or in a app.wsgi file if > at all possible. This gets away from the "double activation" issue you > reference which I have to admit I haven't specifically tried. :) > > > As a side note, I wish Django had more of a concept of different > > 'environments' so this could be managed without feeling as if we're > > "hacking" into Django sometimes. > > Bingo - I think that's a clue that Python runtimes and execution > environments shouldn't be managed at the level of your django project. > In fact the linkage should go the other way - environments manage > python apps. A common case would be switching environments to get you > different versions of your app - or django project in this case - and > this sort of fluidity is harder to script and build if the app wants > to specify by name what environment it lives in. > > I hope that helps - I know I'm not answering your original question :) > > -regards > Simeon Franklin > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Thu Feb 24 20:04:00 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:04:00 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is the config that works in most other situations for me too. We have a package (recaptcha client) that is packaged from easy_install (and I think some non-standard customization from the creators) that can't be found with this environment. I've struggled with this package before. Virtualenv and pip install of this package works perfectly from the command line (which is great I don't have to go in and look at this manually as I've done in my own creation of virtual environments). However, with settings like you have, it can't find the package... This is why I'm considering the activate_this.py within the module. Thanks for letting me know that this is how you handle it so I know I'm at least in the right ballpark of the solution. Cheers, Glen On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Eric Walstad wrote: > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > > We'll still have to have a > > private "local_settings.py" for the developers to play in (as we can't > have > > a different settings file for each of them). > Why not? > > > > I can't "activate" the same environment in the Apache > > configuration file (or I don't seem to be successful in doing so). > > ...We also have mod_python > An apache VH config similar to this works for me: > > > > SetHandler python-program > PythonHandler django.core.handlers.modpython > SetEnv DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE project_name.settings > PythonPath > "sys.path+['/path/to/virtualenvs/venv_name/lib/python2.N/site-packages', > '/path/to/django_X_Y', '/path/to/django/project']" > ... > > > hth, > > Eric > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ewalstad at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 19:53:21 2011 From: ewalstad at gmail.com (Eric Walstad) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:53:21 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > We'll still have to have a > private "local_settings.py" for the developers to play in (as we can't have > a different settings file for each of them). Why not? > I can't "activate" the same environment in the Apache > configuration file (or I don't seem to be successful in doing so). > ...We also have mod_python An apache VH config similar to this works for me: SetHandler python-program PythonHandler django.core.handlers.modpython SetEnv DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE project_name.settings PythonPath "sys.path+['/path/to/virtualenvs/venv_name/lib/python2.N/site-packages', '/path/to/django_X_Y', '/path/to/django/project']" ... hth, Eric From ewalstad at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 21:57:14 2011 From: ewalstad at gmail.com (Eric Walstad) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 12:57:14 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Glen, On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > We have a > package (recaptcha client) that is packaged from easy_install (and I think > some non-standard customization from the creators) that can't be found with > this environment. Have you tried adding /path/to/the/dir/containing/recaptcha/package to the ?PythonPath line in your VH conf? You can find what recaptcha package your system is using, and where it is on your file system, by activating your virtualenv, starting the python shell and then: import os.path import recaptcha as captcha # Or whatever it is named print os.path.dirname(os.path.realpath(captcha.__file__[:-1])) Hth, Eric. From gotszlin at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 22:17:41 2011 From: gotszlin at gmail.com (Luke Gotszling) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:17:41 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Copy of 'Python and CouchDB' presentation slides Message-ID: Hi folks, Sorry for the delay in posting this, I was moving to a new apartment and time just slipped away. If anyone missed the presentation, I will be giving a similar one at PyCon, video should be available shortly thereafter. A link to be able to download the PDF is available here (I tried to include it as an attachment but it exceeds the file size limit of the mailing list): https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B_uLFXT0EYLHMGJiY2NjMTgtM2FmNC00YTBmLThhYWEtMTU5ZjZmMDVjY2Zh&hl=en&authkey=CM6j84cD Best, Luke -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cappy2112 at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 01:07:31 2011 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:07:31 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] O'Reilly is looking for 4 people to sit in on a MapReduce class in SF on March 2 Message-ID: O'Reilly is looking for a few students to sit in while we video tape a new MapReduce course March 2. Join Pete Warden (Data Source Handbook) as he teaches why MapReduce really isn't scary and why you should be looking into it. This course is for developers who work with data, SQL developers, interested analysts, and anyone with a little Python knowledge. The course will be filmed in San Francisco, from 1-4PM. The location information will be sent later. The cost is free to the 4 people who reply. If you are interested please reply OFF-LIST. Thanks Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.nyberg at ordinal.com Fri Feb 25 01:24:35 2011 From: chris.nyberg at ordinal.com (Chris Nyberg) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:24:35 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] O'Reilly is looking for 4 people to sit in on a MapReduce class in SF on March 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony, I am interested in attending. Best Regards. - Chris -- Chris Nyberg, Ordinal Technology Corp, www.ordinal.com, +1 (925) 253 9204 On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > > O'Reilly is looking for a few students to sit in while we video tape a new > MapReduce course March 2. Join Pete Warden (Data Source Handbook) as he > teaches why MapReduce really isn't scary and why you should be looking into > it. This course is for developers who work with data, SQL developers, > interested analysts, and anyone with a little Python knowledge. > > The course will be filmed in San Francisco, from 1-4PM. The location > information will be sent later. > The cost is free to the 4 people who reply. > > If you are interested please reply OFF-LIST. > > Thanks > > Tony > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Feb 25 01:40:37 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:40:37 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] O'Reilly is looking for 4 people to sit in on a MapReduce class in SF on March 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I *so* want to be there. Hopefully it's a day that I'm not working outside the city (I live in the city but work out of it)... Either way.. *dibs* :) do we ask questions or sit quietly? Glen On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Chris Nyberg wrote: > Tony, > > I am interested in attending. > > Best Regards. > > - Chris > -- > Chris Nyberg, Ordinal Technology Corp, www.ordinal.com, +1 (925) 253 9204 > > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > >> >> >> O'Reilly is looking for a few students to sit in while we video tape a new >> MapReduce course March 2. Join Pete Warden (Data Source Handbook) as he >> teaches why MapReduce really isn't scary and why you should be looking into >> it. This course is for developers who work with data, SQL developers, >> interested analysts, and anyone with a little Python knowledge. >> >> The course will be filmed in San Francisco, from 1-4PM. The location >> information will be sent later. >> The cost is free to the 4 people who reply. >> >> If you are interested please reply OFF-LIST. >> >> Thanks >> >> Tony >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Fri Feb 25 01:42:04 2011 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:42:04 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] O'Reilly is looking for 4 people to sit in on a MapReduce class in SF on March 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, I missed the date of 2-March was announced... I'm there :) Glen On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > I *so* want to be there. Hopefully it's a day that I'm not working outside > the city (I live in the city but work out of it)... Either way.. *dibs* :) > do we ask questions or sit quietly? > > Glen > > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Chris Nyberg wrote: > >> Tony, >> >> I am interested in attending. >> >> Best Regards. >> >> - Chris >> -- >> Chris Nyberg, Ordinal Technology Corp, www.ordinal.com, +1 (925) 253 9204 >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> O'Reilly is looking for a few students to sit in while we video tape a >>> new MapReduce course March 2. Join Pete Warden (Data Source Handbook) as he >>> teaches why MapReduce really isn't scary and why you should be looking into >>> it. This course is for developers who work with data, SQL developers, >>> interested analysts, and anyone with a little Python knowledge. >>> >>> The course will be filmed in San Francisco, from 1-4PM. The location >>> information will be sent later. >>> The cost is free to the 4 people who reply. >>> >>> If you are interested please reply OFF-LIST. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Baypiggies mailing list >>> Baypiggies at python.org >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > > -- > Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter > least. > > -- Goethe > -- Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things which matter least. -- Goethe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Feb 25 02:05:58 2011 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:05:58 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] O'Reilly is looking for 4 people to sit in on a MapReduce class in SF on March 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110225010558.GA21252@panix.com> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > O'Reilly is looking for a few students to sit in while we video tape a new > MapReduce course March 2. Join Pete Warden (Data Source Handbook) as he > teaches why MapReduce really isn't scary and why you should be looking into > it. This course is for developers who work with data, SQL developers, > interested analysts, and anyone with a little Python knowledge. > > The course will be filmed in San Francisco, from 1-4PM. The location > information will be sent later. Too bad it competes with the PyPy talk at Stanford.... -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Programming language design is not a rational science. Most reasoning about it is at best rationalization of gut feelings, and at worst plain wrong." --GvR, python-ideas, 2009-03-01 From tony at tcapp.com Fri Feb 25 02:33:11 2011 From: tony at tcapp.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:33:11 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] O'Reilly is looking for 4 people to sit in on a MapReduce class in SF on March 2 In-Reply-To: <20110225010558.GA21252@panix.com> References: <20110225010558.GA21252@panix.com> Message-ID: > > >>Too bad it competes with the PyPy talk at Stanford.... > There are 3 more public occurrences of his talk, although not as close to the South Bay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cappy2112 at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 02:38:10 2011 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:38:10 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] O'Reilly class on MapReduce is now CLOSED Message-ID: Thanks for those who replied. No more replies, please. The class is full. Oreilly now has the list of people who replied first, and will be contacting them via email with the specifics. Thanks Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.tubbs at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 04:39:27 2011 From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com (Brent Tubbs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:39:27 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A few thoughts: - Like other commenters, I like to do 'from settings import *' at the top of local_settings.py, and use local_settings as the value for DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE. - Have you ever tried Gunicorn as a replacement for Apache and mod_wsgi? See http://gunicorn.org/. It's dead easy, and because Gunicorn itself is a Python package that installs into your virtualenv, you can just run the gunicorn binary installed there in order to make sure your virtualenv is respected by Django. - The downside to using gunicorn is that you need to have something start the process and keep it going. Supervisord works well for this. - I like the Ubuntu+Nginx+Gunicorn+Supervisord stack enough that I made On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Eric Walstad wrote: > Hey Glen, > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >> We have a >> package (recaptcha client) that is packaged from easy_install (and I think >> some non-standard customization from the creators) that can't be found with >> this environment. > > Have you tried adding /path/to/the/dir/containing/recaptcha/package to > the ?PythonPath line in your VH conf? > > You can find what recaptcha package your system is using, and where it > is on your file system, by activating your virtualenv, starting the > python shell and then: > > import os.path > import recaptcha as captcha # Or whatever it is named > print os.path.dirname(os.path.realpath(captcha.__file__[:-1])) > > > Hth, > > Eric. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From brent.tubbs at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 04:40:55 2011 From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com (Brent Tubbs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:40:55 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] VirtualEnv and Django question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Grrr my clumsy thumb hit a bad key and sent a half finished email... Anyway I was going to say that I made a package for configuring Nginx, Gunicorn, Supervisord, and Nginx for you, and setting up the virtualenv. See http://pypi.python.org/pypi/silk-deployment/0.2.4 . Brent On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Brent Tubbs wrote: > A few thoughts: > > - Like other commenters, I like to do 'from settings import *' at the > top of local_settings.py, and use local_settings as the value for > DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE. > - Have you ever tried Gunicorn as a replacement for Apache and > mod_wsgi? ?See http://gunicorn.org/. ?It's dead easy, and because > Gunicorn itself is a Python package that installs into your > virtualenv, you can just run the gunicorn binary installed there in > order to make sure your virtualenv is respected by Django. > - The downside to using gunicorn is that you need to have something > start the process and keep it going. ?Supervisord works well for this. > - I like the Ubuntu+Nginx+Gunicorn+Supervisord stack enough that I made > > > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Eric Walstad wrote: >> Hey Glen, >> >> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: >>> We have a >>> package (recaptcha client) that is packaged from easy_install (and I think >>> some non-standard customization from the creators) that can't be found with >>> this environment. >> >> Have you tried adding /path/to/the/dir/containing/recaptcha/package to >> the ?PythonPath line in your VH conf? >> >> You can find what recaptcha package your system is using, and where it >> is on your file system, by activating your virtualenv, starting the >> python shell and then: >> >> import os.path >> import recaptcha as captcha # Or whatever it is named >> print os.path.dirname(os.path.realpath(captcha.__file__[:-1])) >> >> >> Hth, >> >> Eric. >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From wescpy at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 23:43:19 2011 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:43:19 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] ANN: Intro+Intermediate Python course, SF, May 24-26 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Need to get up-to-speed with Python as quickly and as in-depth as possible? Already coding Python but still have areas of uncertainty you need to fill? Then come join me, Wesley Chun, author of Prentice-Hall's bestseller "Core Python" for a comprehensive intro/intermediate course coming up this May in Northern California, then enjoy the Memorial Day weekend afterwards in San Francisco, the beautiful city by the bay. Please pass on this note to whomever you think may be interested. I look forward to meeting you and your colleagues! feel free to pass around the PDF flyer linked down below. (Comprehensive) Introduction to Python Tue-Thu, 2010 May 24-26, 9am-5pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (COMPREHENSIVE) INTRO+INTERMEDIATE PYTHON Although this course may appear to those new to Python, it is also perfect for those who have tinkered with it and want to "fill in the gaps" and/or want to get more in-depth formal training. ?It combines the best of both an introduction to the language as well as a "Python Internals" training course. We will immerse you in the world of Python in only a few days, showing you more than just its syntax (which you don't really need a book to learn, right?). Knowing more about how Python works under the covers, including the relationship between data objects and memory management, will make you a much more effective Python programmer coming out of the gate. 3 hands-on labs each day will help hammer the concepts home. Come find out why Google, Yahoo!, Disney, ILM/LucasFilm, VMware, NASA, Ubuntu, YouTube, and Red Hat all use Python. Users supporting or jumping to Plone, Zope, TurboGears, Pylons, Django, Google App Engine, Jython, IronPython, and Mailman will also benefit! PREVIEW 1: you will find (and can download) a video clip of a class session recorded live to get an idea of my lecture style and the interactive classroom environment (as well as sign-up) at: http://cyberwebconsulting.com PREVIEW 2: Partnering with O'Reilly and Pearson, Safari Books Online has asked me to deliver a 1-hour webcast a couple of years ago called "What is Python?". This was an online seminar based on a session that I've delivered at numerous conferences in the past. It will give you an idea of lecture style as well as an overview of the material covered in the course. info:http://www.safaribooksonline.com/events/WhatIsPython.html download (reg req'd): http://www.safaribooksonline.com/Corporate/DownloadAndResources/webcastInfo.php?page=WhatIsPython - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - WHERE: near the San Francisco Airport (SFO/San Bruno), CA, USA WEB: ? http://cyberwebconsulting.com FLYER: http://cyberwebconsulting.com/flyerPP1.pdf LOCALS: easy freeway (101/280/380) with lots of parking plus public transit (BART and CalTrain) access via the San Bruno stations, easily accessible from all parts of the Bay Area VISITORS: free shuttle to/from the airport, free high-speed internet, free breakfast and regular evening receptions; fully-equipped suites See website for costs, venue info, and registration. There is a significant discounts available for full-time students, secondary teachers, and others. Hope to see you there! -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 "Python Fundamentals", Prentice Hall, (c)2009 ? ? http://corepython.com wesley.chun : wescpy-gmail.com : @wescpy python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From hasan.diwan at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 04:04:09 2011 From: hasan.diwan at gmail.com (Hasan Diwan) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:04:09 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Need Career advice Message-ID: Ladies and gents, I am currently employed, but I'd like something more educational than what I'm doing right now. My experience is mainly in computational finance and SQL. So, is anyone hiring? -- Sent from my mobile device Envoyait de mon telephone mobil From sfseth at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 05:00:50 2011 From: sfseth at gmail.com (Seth Friedman) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:00:50 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Need Career advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi there, Depending on what you mean by educational - a job where you're exposed to a lot of different stuff to learn is how I'm interpreting - I'd suggest QA. Granted I'm biased and always found it difficult to hire QA as it does tend to burn people out for all kinds of wrong organizational reasons. But, at the right company, it can be a delight, like a development gig that can be about the whole ecosystem, or whatever parts of it you're interested in pursuing. It has a sort of bad rep as something like "verify a blue button exists and is blue", but it's a field that can really be taken far in any one of a number of directions, at a great deal of depth. Someplace with a product that is itself technical, say a data warehousing place, the work can be a satisfying mix of development (building test automation and dashboard visualization of that data - that, guess what?!, has only internal consumers so you're free to have more fun with it than a consumer-facing UI - personally i like smiley and frowny faces) ... interfacing with product "how many significant digits did you picture this showing?" ... interfacing with ops "umm, this new feature causes 5% more DB CPU usage, is this going to melt our prod databases?". The other thing I've come to see is that it pretty much takes a developer skillset to be able to execute as QA effectively, at least for any product/site that has external APIs. I may not know or care about the list of caveats to the documented API to twitter, but if I were QA there I imagine I would need to be able to go to the devs, credibly, with an understanding/respect of external developer's expectations. Like, building my own client (i've had QA interviews where the interview was a) say hello to the hiring folks, b) write a client to their API, c) present my client and the exercise building it to the team, all on site). My $.002, seth On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Hasan Diwan wrote: > Ladies and gents, > I am currently employed, but I'd like something more educational than > what I'm doing right now. My experience is mainly in computational > finance and SQL. So, is anyone hiring? > -- > Sent from my mobile device > Envoyait de mon telephone mobil > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hasan.diwan at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 05:07:56 2011 From: hasan.diwan at gmail.com (Hasan Diwan) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:07:56 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Need Career advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I am currently employed, but I'd like something more educational than >> what I'm doing right now. My experience is mainly in computational >> finance and SQL. So, is anyone hiring? Perhaps I should clarify what I mean by "educational" -- some place that allows me to grow and not pigeonhole me into doing what my experience says I've done in the past (computational finance/SQL, as noted above). Now, I don't mind either of those roles, I feel I'm becoming typecast as such and feel as though I could offer a potential employer more than that. -- Sent from my mobile device Envoyait de mon telephone mobil From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Feb 26 08:22:52 2011 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 23:22:52 -0800 Subject: [Baypiggies] Need Career advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110226072252.GA23843@panix.com> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011, Hasan Diwan wrote: > > I am currently employed, but I'd like something more educational than > what I'm doing right now. My experience is mainly in computational > finance and SQL. So, is anyone hiring? What do you want to do? If you've been paying attention to the list, there are lots of companies hiring, so that's the wrong question... ;-) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "Programming language design is not a rational science. Most reasoning about it is at best rationalization of gut feelings, and at worst plain wrong." --GvR, python-ideas, 2009-03-01