From Paul.Moore@atosorigin.com Thu Oct 11 16:35:33 2001 From: Paul.Moore@atosorigin.com (Moore, Paul) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:35:33 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Re: [DB-SIG] Current status of Gadfly Message-ID: <714DFA46B9BBD0119CD000805FC1F53B01B5B066@UKRUX002.rundc.uk.origin-it.com> From: Andrew Kuchling <akuchlin@mems-exchange.org> > On Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 03:08:32PM +0200, Magnus Lyck? > wrote: > > >IMHO a CPAN work-alike would be worth much more than all > >the new spiffy features in Python 2.2! But I guess it's > >less fun... :-( Vault of Parnassus > > Suchandra Thapa posted a prototype to the catalog-sig back > in September, and so far exactly zero public comments have > been made about. While people *talk* a lot about how nice > a catalog would be, deep down I think they don't really > care. You can read that fact two ways. On the one hand, no-one really cares enough to put in a lot of effort polishing and perfecting the proposals that get made. This is a bad thing, sure. But on the other hand, it also means that people are pragmatic - they don't care about *perfecting* the proposal, they just want something practical, that works. I suspect that if Suchandra simply implemented his proposal, and publicised it, and worked at grabbing as many modules as he could and putting them into his catalog, then it would work, and take off. But that requires one person's commitment and time (and web space). The thing that sometimes saddens me about the Python community is how so many good ideas stagnate because there is too much design and not enough implementation. Of course, I don't implement anything, so my comments can't be seen as anything other than heckling from the peanut gallery :-) BTW, if you wish, you may interpret this message as enthusiastic support for Suchandra's prototype. It is. I haven't used it - I don't read the catalog SIG - but I am strongly in favour of anything in this area. Perl's CPAN isn't perfect - heck, in many ways it's dreadful - but people still point to it as a shining example of how to do things. Parnassus isn't ideal, but still loads of people use it. And as a basis for measuring alternatives, it's often quoted (earlier in this thread, we had the comment "Vault of Parnassus is a Good Thing, but we need something with...") Lack of comments doesn't always mean lack of interest - number of users is the only real measure, and proposals don't have users... Sorry - this touched a nerve. Paul. From TKeating@origin.ea.com Thu Oct 11 17:28:46 2001 From: TKeating@origin.ea.com (Keating, Tim) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:28:46 -0500 Subject: [Catalog-sig] RE: [DB-SIG] Current status of Gadfly Message-ID: <2292DBED5A978A498EABCCE95524499E0281D72C@osi-postal.osi.ad.ea.com> To further muddy the waters: I am a pretty regular Python user, and obviously I participate in one SIG, but I had no idea what the catalog SIG was about, nor would I be inclined to go looking for it. As a result, I never knew such a thing existed. I think what we really need is a python news center (dare I say, something like Slashdot?) where Python USERS can find out about stuff like this. To paraphrase a marketing person I know, if you build it they will NOT come unless you TELL them about it. Sorry to extend the life of this highly off-topic thread, but I also agree that a CPAN-like repository would be very cool and useful. TK > You can read that fact two ways. On the one hand, no-one > really cares enough > to put in a lot of effort polishing and perfecting the > proposals that get > made. This is a bad thing, sure. But on the other hand, it > also means that > people are pragmatic - they don't care about *perfecting* the > proposal, they > just want something practical, that works. I suspect that if Suchandra > simply implemented his proposal, and publicised it, and > worked at grabbing > as many modules as he could and putting them into his > catalog, then it would > work, and take off. But that requires one person's commitment > and time (and > web space). > > The thing that sometimes saddens me about the Python > community is how so > many good ideas stagnate because there is too much design and > not enough > implementation. Of course, I don't implement anything, so my > comments can't > be seen as anything other than heckling from the peanut gallery :-) > > BTW, if you wish, you may interpret this message as > enthusiastic support for > Suchandra's prototype. It is. I haven't used it - I don't > read the catalog > SIG - but I am strongly in favour of anything in this area. > Perl's CPAN > isn't perfect - heck, in many ways it's dreadful - but people > still point to > it as a shining example of how to do things. Parnassus isn't > ideal, but > still loads of people use it. And as a basis for measuring > alternatives, > it's often quoted (earlier in this thread, we had the comment > "Vault of > Parnassus is a Good Thing, but we need something with...") > Lack of comments > doesn't always mean lack of interest - number of users is the > only real > measure, and proposals don't have users... From guido@python.org Thu Oct 11 17:29:47 2001 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:29:47 -0400 Subject: [Catalog-sig] RE: [DB-SIG] Current status of Gadfly In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:28:46 CDT." <2292DBED5A978A498EABCCE95524499E0281D72C@osi-postal.osi.ad.ea.com> References: <2292DBED5A978A498EABCCE95524499E0281D72C@osi-postal.osi.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <200110111629.MAA28675@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > I think what we really need is a python news center (dare I say, > something like Slashdot?) where Python USERS can find out about > stuff like this. It's called comp.lang.python, and is archived at http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-list/ --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From TKeating@origin.ea.com Thu Oct 11 17:38:27 2001 From: TKeating@origin.ea.com (Keating, Tim) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:38:27 -0500 Subject: [Catalog-sig] RE: [DB-SIG] Current status of Gadfly Message-ID: <2292DBED5A978A498EABCCE95524499E0281D72E@osi-postal.osi.ad.ea.com> OK, fine. Luddite. :) > -----Original Message----- > From: Guido van Rossum [mailto:guido@python.org] > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:30 AM > To: Keating, Tim > Cc: 'db-sig@python.org'; 'catalog-sig@python.org' > Subject: Re: [Catalog-sig] RE: [DB-SIG] Current status of Gadfly > > > > I think what we really need is a python news center (dare I say, > > something like Slashdot?) where Python USERS can find out about > > stuff like this. > > It's called comp.lang.python, and is archived at > http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-list/ > > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) > From kjcole@gri.gallaudet.edu Thu Oct 11 18:50:43 2001 From: kjcole@gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Catalog-sig] RE: [DB-SIG] Current status of Gadfly In-Reply-To: <200110111629.MAA28675@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0110111349230.316-100000@gri.gallaudet.edu> Not only that, there's news from the future in the archives (2007-April and 2005-February, no less). ;-) On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Guido van Rossum wrote: > It's called comp.lang.python, and is archived at > http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-list/ From k_vertigo@yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 19:04:52 2001 From: k_vertigo@yahoo.com (Kapil Thangavelu) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Catalog-sig] RE: [DB-SIG] Current status of Gadfly In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0110111349230.316-100000@gri.gallaudet.edu> Message-ID: <20011011180452.80139.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> and even it has a nice browsing/search interface at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=comp.lang.python --- Kevin Cole <kjcole@gri.gallaudet.edu> wrote: > Not only that, there's news from the future in the > archives (2007-April > and 2005-February, no less). ;-) > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > > It's called comp.lang.python, and is archived at > > http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-list/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Catalog-sig mailing list > Catalog-sig@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/catalog-sig __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From magnus@thinkware.se Thu Oct 11 21:28:42 2001 From: magnus@thinkware.se (Magnus Lyckå) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:28:42 +0200 Subject: [Catalog-sig] RE: [DB-SIG] Current status of Gadfly In-Reply-To: <200110111629.MAA28675@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> References: <Your message of "Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:28:46 CDT." <2292DBED5A978A498EABCCE95524499E0281D72C@osi-postal.osi.ad.ea.com> <2292DBED5A978A498EABCCE95524499E0281D72C@osi-postal.osi.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011011203148.009fa820@mail.irrblosset.se> Tim Keating wrote: > > I think what we really need is a python news center (dare I say, > > something like Slashdot?) where Python USERS can find out about > > stuff like this. Guido van Rossum replied: >It's called comp.lang.python, and is archived at >http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-list/ Maybe the link (below) that Kapil Thangavelu mentioned should be put at http://www.python.org/News.html for instance. Sometimes deatils like that makes a big difference. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=comp.lang.python The search interface certainly makes the news group more useful. News and mailing lists really only well work if you spend time with them each day. The other links on that page are really good resources, and I usually follow them each Thursday (yes, that's today :) from lwn.net which sadly is treatened by ended funding. And if it's impossible to run a really great Linux news center, then maybe a good Python news center is unlikely. I don't think it's the first time this kind of a suggestion pops up, and if several people think something is lacking, then SOMETHING IS lacking, at least for them. With a great language like python, most things are trivial once you know what to do, and with core languages constructs, it's not difficult to find out what to do. But with everything beyond that, database and other interfaces, GUIs, XML etc, there is much more of a Perl-like there's-more-than-one-way-to-do-it choice, and the novice might not even find one of the ways... It would be wonderful indeed if the information available about all the modules that makes Python so useful would be as excellent as Python itself. That's certainly a thing I'll put on my wishing list for Santa. :) /Magnus P.S. For the first time as a consultant I actually got my first client who specifically hired me for my Python skills a few days ago, so maybe Python is really becoming viable as a career merit. (Unfortunately, it's a fairly tiny assignment--but it is fun!) -- Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB Alvans vag 99, SE-907 50 UMEA, SWEDEN phone: int+46 70 582 80 65, fax: int+46 70 612 80 65 http://www.thinkware.se/ mailto:magnus@thinkware.se