From amk at amk.ca Wed Mar 2 21:36:57 2011 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 15:36:57 -0500 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [pydotorg-www] Inappropriate link In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110302203657.GA1067@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> On Wed, Mar 02, 2011 at 07:27:41PM +0100, Malthe Borch wrote: > On http://pypi.python.org, at the footer, there's a link to > http://www.pollenation.net/ which redirects to > http://www.tastecard.co.uk/. It looks like pollenation.net has gone away and been domain-squatted. www.python.org now links to http://www.timparkin.co.uk/, which is the personal page of the designer. --amk From martin at v.loewis.de Wed Mar 2 22:56:18 2011 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 22:56:18 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [pydotorg-www] Inappropriate link In-Reply-To: <20110302203657.GA1067@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> References: <20110302203657.GA1067@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> Message-ID: <4D6EBD02.90401@v.loewis.de> Am 02.03.2011 21:36, schrieb A.M. Kuchling: > On Wed, Mar 02, 2011 at 07:27:41PM +0100, Malthe Borch wrote: >> On http://pypi.python.org, at the footer, there's a link to >> http://www.pollenation.net/ which redirects to >> http://www.tastecard.co.uk/. > > It looks like pollenation.net has gone away and been domain-squatted. > www.python.org now links to http://www.timparkin.co.uk/, which is the > personal page of the designer. Thanks for pointing this out; I have fixed it now. Regards, Martin From monitor at jacobian.org Thu Mar 3 08:45:37 2011 From: monitor at jacobian.org (monitor at jacobian.org) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 01:45:37 -0600 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [monit] pypi.python.org - Connection succeeded Message-ID: <1299138340.1@jacobian.org> Connection succeeded Service pypi.python.org Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 01:45:37 -0600 Action: alert Host: jacobian.org Description: connection succeeded to INET[pypi.python.org:80] via TCP Your faithful employee, monit From martin at v.loewis.de Sun Mar 6 22:43:20 2011 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 22:43:20 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [Distutils] pypi/packages/docs.python.org In-Reply-To: References: <4D73F1A9.1000207@v.loewis.de> <4D73F9FE.2060506@v.loewis.de> Message-ID: <4D73FFF8.3020801@v.loewis.de> >> As for a big link: if you think your page should have one, you are free >> to make it yourself already. > > Sure but, > > 1/ I have never asked for the "Downloads ?" link either, but the UI > did add it, and it's really more ergonomic. > > 2/ I have never asked for "Latest Version: 0.6.14" on this page : hit > ttp://pypi.python.org/pypi/distribute/0.6.9 [...] > And I think a link to packages.python.org/distribute is at the same level I can sympathize with that view. Cc'ing catalog-sig here: if anybody would *not* want to have a "Documentation" link automatically generated that points to packages.python.org/, please speak up. Regards, Martin From mal at egenix.com Sun Mar 6 23:18:14 2011 From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 23:18:14 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [Distutils] pypi/packages/docs.python.org In-Reply-To: <4D73FFF8.3020801@v.loewis.de> References: <4D73F1A9.1000207@v.loewis.de> <4D73F9FE.2060506@v.loewis.de> <4D73FFF8.3020801@v.loewis.de> Message-ID: <4D740826.3030207@egenix.com> "Martin v. L?wis" wrote: >>> As for a big link: if you think your page should have one, you are free >>> to make it yourself already. >> >> Sure but, >> >> 1/ I have never asked for the "Downloads ?" link either, but the UI >> did add it, and it's really more ergonomic. >> >> 2/ I have never asked for "Latest Version: 0.6.14" on this page : hit >> ttp://pypi.python.org/pypi/distribute/0.6.9 > [...] >> And I think a link to packages.python.org/distribute is at the same level > > I can sympathize with that view. Cc'ing catalog-sig here: > > if anybody would *not* want to have a "Documentation" link automatically > generated that points to packages.python.org/, please speak up. That would only make sense if there's something uploaded to the PyPI docs dir. If PyPI can detect that, +1. Otherwise, I think it's better not adding such an automatic link, since no link is better than one going nowhere. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Mar 06 2011) >>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ ::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! :::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ From richard at python.org Mon Mar 7 00:31:12 2011 From: richard at python.org (Richard Jones) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 10:31:12 +1100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [Distutils] pypi/packages/docs.python.org In-Reply-To: <4D740826.3030207@egenix.com> References: <4D73F1A9.1000207@v.loewis.de> <4D73F9FE.2060506@v.loewis.de> <4D73FFF8.3020801@v.loewis.de> <4D740826.3030207@egenix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 9:18 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > "Martin v. L?wis" wrote: >> if anybody would *not* want to have a "Documentation" link automatically >> generated that points to packages.python.org/, please speak up. > > That would only make sense if there's something uploaded to > the PyPI docs dir. > > If PyPI can detect that, +1. Otherwise, I think it's better not > adding such an automatic link, since no link is better than one > going nowhere. Absolutely - it only generates the link if there's something to link to (that is, there's been a documentation upload with an index.html file at the root, or in a top-level "html" directory). Richard From martin at v.loewis.de Mon Mar 7 00:47:03 2011 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 00:47:03 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [Distutils] pypi/packages/docs.python.org In-Reply-To: <4D740826.3030207@egenix.com> References: <4D73F1A9.1000207@v.loewis.de> <4D73F9FE.2060506@v.loewis.de> <4D73FFF8.3020801@v.loewis.de> <4D740826.3030207@egenix.com> Message-ID: <4D741CF7.7010807@v.loewis.de> >> if anybody would *not* want to have a "Documentation" link automatically >> generated that points to packages.python.org/, please speak up. > > That would only make sense if there's something uploaded to > the PyPI docs dir. > > If PyPI can detect that, +1. Yes, the link would certainly be conditional. Regards, Martin From mal at egenix.com Mon Mar 7 11:03:58 2011 From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 11:03:58 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [Distutils] pypi/packages/docs.python.org In-Reply-To: <4D741CF7.7010807@v.loewis.de> References: <4D73F1A9.1000207@v.loewis.de> <4D73F9FE.2060506@v.loewis.de> <4D73FFF8.3020801@v.loewis.de> <4D740826.3030207@egenix.com> <4D741CF7.7010807@v.loewis.de> Message-ID: <4D74AD8E.4020604@egenix.com> "Martin v. L?wis" wrote: >>> if anybody would *not* want to have a "Documentation" link automatically >>> generated that points to packages.python.org/, please speak up. >> >> That would only make sense if there's something uploaded to >> the PyPI docs dir. >> >> If PyPI can detect that, +1. > > Yes, the link would certainly be conditional. Great. Thanks. -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Mar 07 2011) >>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ ::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! :::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ From sienkiew at stsci.edu Mon Mar 7 22:06:38 2011 From: sienkiew at stsci.edu (Mark Sienkiewicz) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 16:06:38 -0500 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [Distutils] pypi/packages/docs.python.org In-Reply-To: References: <4D73F1A9.1000207@v.loewis.de> <4D73F9FE.2060506@v.loewis.de> <4D73FFF8.3020801@v.loewis.de> <4D740826.3030207@egenix.com> Message-ID: <4D7548DE.6040602@stsci.edu> Richard Jones wrote: > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 9:18 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > >> "Martin v. L?wis" wrote: >> >>> if anybody would *not* want to have a "Documentation" link automatically >>> generated that points to packages.python.org/, please speak up. >>> >> That would only make sense if there's something uploaded to >> the PyPI docs dir. >> >> If PyPI can detect that, +1. Otherwise, I think it's better not >> adding such an automatic link, since no link is better than one >> going nowhere. >> > > Absolutely - it only generates the link if there's something to link > to (that is, there's been a documentation upload with an index.html > file at the root, or in a top-level "html" directory). > I suggest: - Generate a link if there is documentation - Generate the text "No documentation" in the place where the link would be if there is no documentation. I have two reasons for suggesting this: 1. I'm thinking explicit is better than implicit here. The link for the documentation should always be in the same place on the page, so having a placeholder stating "there's nothing here" will make the page easier to read. You don't wonder if you missed it, or if something is wrong that the link disappeared -- it says right there what you want to know. 2. It might remind developers that it is possible to upload documentation with their package. Currently, a lot of stuff on pypi has poor or nonexistent documentation; the resource as a whole would be far more valuable if every package had at least a minimal summary of what it does and how to use it. (Even if someone has no need for your package, you still help them if they can determine that _quickly_.) From richard at python.org Mon Mar 7 23:52:56 2011 From: richard at python.org (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 09:52:56 +1100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [Distutils] pypi/packages/docs.python.org In-Reply-To: <4D7548DE.6040602@stsci.edu> References: <4D73F1A9.1000207@v.loewis.de> <4D73F9FE.2060506@v.loewis.de> <4D73FFF8.3020801@v.loewis.de> <4D740826.3030207@egenix.com> <4D7548DE.6040602@stsci.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Mark Sienkiewicz wrote: > I suggest: > > - Generate a link if there is documentation Right, we do this already. > - Generate the text "No documentation" in the place where the link would be > if there is no documentation. I don't like this. The documentation space on pypi is offered as a space for projects that's convenient or where they otherwise wouldn't be able to host their own documentation website. It's not something I wish to force people to use (just like package upload isn't something we force people to do), and stating "no documentation" would be a bit of a lie in a bunch of cases. Even with additional clarifying wording it's still a negative statement that I don't think we need to make. Richard From benji at benjiyork.com Tue Mar 8 00:09:24 2011 From: benji at benjiyork.com (Benji York) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 18:09:24 -0500 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [Distutils] pypi/packages/docs.python.org In-Reply-To: References: <4D73F1A9.1000207@v.loewis.de> <4D73F9FE.2060506@v.loewis.de> <4D73FFF8.3020801@v.loewis.de> <4D740826.3030207@egenix.com> <4D7548DE.6040602@stsci.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Richard Jones wrote: > On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Mark Sienkiewicz wrote: >> I suggest: >> >> - Generate a link if there is documentation > > Right, we do this already. > > >> - Generate the text "No documentation" in the place where the link would be >> if there is no documentation. > > I don't like this. The documentation space on pypi is offered as a > space for projects that's convenient or where they otherwise wouldn't > be able to host their own documentation website. It's not something I > wish to force people to use (just like package upload isn't something > we force people to do), and stating "no documentation" would be a bit > of a lie in a bunch of cases. Even with additional clarifying wording > it's still a negative statement that I don't think we need to make. What about this: 1) have some sort of "disabled" link placeholder so the documentation link is always there, but not an attractive nuisance leading to a dead end when there are no docs available and 2) let project owners provide an alternative target for the link if they host their documentation elsewhere. -- Benji York From monitor at jacobian.org Tue Mar 8 12:34:34 2011 From: monitor at jacobian.org (monitor at jacobian.org) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 05:34:34 -0600 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [monit] b.pypi.python.org - Connection failed Message-ID: <1299584078.1@jacobian.org> Connection failed Service b.pypi.python.org Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 05:34:34 -0600 Action: alert Host: jacobian.org Description: failed protocol test [HTTP] at INET[b.pypi.python.org:80] via TCP Your faithful employee, monit From lothiraldan at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 11:21:37 2011 From: lothiraldan at gmail.com (Boris FELD) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:21:37 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Need informations about Pypi Testing Infrastructure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello everyone, i'm student and i need some informations about the Google Summer Of Code Project : Pypi Testing Infrastructure.?For?those?unfamiliar with the?project, it consists in these 4 simple actions : 1 - get package from pypi. 2 - install the package. 3 - run package tests 4 - build a report. In order to match with community's needs, we need some informations about several subjects. For each subject, i've created a google moderator serie. 1) General questions about packaging and project : http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=62dc1 2) For each pypi package, we build a report with several indicators, which indicators did you want to see on report ? http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=5f6e4 3) In order to install the package and run tests, we need to list external dependencies (like db, non easy-installable library, ...) : http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=6237a 4) Finally, we need to choose a Continuous Integration Tool for the project. We need some informations about which CI tools did you use for your python project :?http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=62316 I've got an idea which require your approval, i've think if a message was displayed on pypi website like this one : "Pypi need you ! We need your help to improve a future tool" and explain what i've explain just before.?Thus?we could have?maximum?contributions. Some of my contacts said that this is a bad idea,?but I?wanted to?propose?the?idea. Thanks for your contributions. Cheers, -- FELD Boris From lothiraldan at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 23:10:10 2011 From: lothiraldan at gmail.com (FELD Boris) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 23:10:10 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Need informations about Pypi Testing Infrastructure Message-ID: Hello everyone, i'm student and i need some informations about the Google Summer Of Code Project : Pypi Testing Infrastructure. For those unfamiliar with the project, it consists in these 4 simple actions : 1 - get package from pypi. 2 - install the package. 3 - run package tests 4 - build a report. In order to match with community's needs, we need some informations about several subjects. For each subject, i've created a google moderator serie. 1) General questions about packaging and project : http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=62dc1 2) For each pypi package, we build a report with several indicators, which indicators did you want to see on report ? http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=5f6e4 3) In order to install the package and run tests, we need to list external dependencies (like db, non easy-installable library, ...) : http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=6237a 4) Finally, we need to choose a Continuous Integration Tool for the project. We need some informations about which CI tools did you use for your python project : http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=62316 I've got an idea which require your approval, i've think if a message was displayed on pypi website like this one : "Pypi need you ! We need your help to improve a future tool" and explain what i've explain just before. Thus we could have maximum contributions. Some of my contacts said that this is a bad idea, but I wanted to propose the idea. Thanks for your contributions. Cheers, -- FELD Boris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mitch at garnaat.com Tue Mar 15 22:12:43 2011 From: mitch at garnaat.com (Mitchell Garnaat) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 17:12:43 -0400 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Problem with my pypi account Message-ID: Hi - I hope I'm sending this to the right place. If not, I apologize. I have been having trouble with my pypi account. Recently, attempts to log in to the web page failed and attempts to reset the password never generate a reset message. Strangely, up until today I was still able to upload my boto package to pypi using the "upload" option in distutils but that no longer works either. Could someone help me with this? Ideally, I'd just like to reset the password and then be able to establish a new one. My username is "garnaat". Thanks in advance, Mitch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin at v.loewis.de Wed Mar 16 19:19:15 2011 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:19:15 -0400 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI ssh access Message-ID: <4D80FF23.8050702@v.loewis.de> I wrote a distutils extension that makes distutils use ssh for the upload and register commands; it's at http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pypissh Please report issues you find with it in its bug tracker. Regards, Martin From alexis at notmyidea.org Wed Mar 16 23:11:36 2011 From: alexis at notmyidea.org (=?windows-1252?Q?Alexis_M=E9taireau?=) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:11:36 +0000 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI ssh access In-Reply-To: <4D80FF23.8050702@v.loewis.de> References: <4D80FF23.8050702@v.loewis.de> Message-ID: <4D813598.1050904@notmyidea.org> Le 16/03/2011 18:19, "Martin v. L?wis" a ?crit : > I wrote a distutils extension that makes distutils > use ssh for the upload and register commands; it's at > GREAT, thanks. -- Alexis ? http://notmyidea.org From bdc at msu.edu Thu Mar 17 16:08:37 2011 From: bdc at msu.edu (Brian Connelly) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:08:37 -0400 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Classifier Request Message-ID: Hi, I'd like to request the following classifier for an artificial life simulation package I'm going to submit. "Artificial Life" is a common term in our field (see http://www.mitpressjournals.org/loi/artl, and there are several other venues). It's definitely different from artificial intelligence or any other classifier. Topic :: Scientific/Engineering :: Artificial Life Thanks! Brian From richard at python.org Thu Mar 17 23:59:08 2011 From: richard at python.org (Richard Jones) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:59:08 +1100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Classifier Request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 2:08 AM, Brian Connelly wrote: > I'd like to request the following classifier for an artificial life > simulation package I'm going to submit. ?"Artificial Life" is a common > term in our field (see http://www.mitpressjournals.org/loi/artl, and > there are several other venues). ?It's definitely different from > artificial intelligence or any other classifier. > > Topic :: Scientific/Engineering :: Artificial Life Added. Richard From tjreedy at udel.edu Fri Mar 18 00:57:07 2011 From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:57:07 -0400 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Classifier Request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/17/2011 11:08 AM, Brian Connelly wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to request the following classifier for an artificial life > simulation package I'm going to submit. "Artificial Life" is a common > term in our field (see http://www.mitpressjournals.org/loi/artl, and > there are several other venues). It's definitely different from > artificial intelligence or any other classifier. > > Topic :: Scientific/Engineering :: Artificial Life (Slightly OT for this list.) My daughter is learning Python and is interested in AL, so we will try to watch for this! Nice to see it added. -- Terry Jan Reedy From ziade.tarek at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 10:59:02 2011 From: ziade.tarek at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tarek_Ziad=E9?=) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 10:59:02 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Thoughts on more detailed stats Message-ID: Hey, I find the actual downloads hits to be quite artificial because there are some build systems out there that are fetching releases all day long for their work. There are local mirrors of course, but I am pretty sure projects like zc.buildout are downloaded most of the times by build scripts. And setuptools is downloaded mostly as a dependency of other projects. Those are valid stats of course, but I was wondering if we could provide more details in why the package was downloaded. e.g. if we're able to distinguish automated downloads from other downloads. One way I was thinking of was to tell PyPI at download time if the download was done as a dependency fetching or was a primary download (manuall download or "pip install xxx') Another way would be to ask Continuous Integration systems to use a specific user agent marker. In the UI we could then make the distinction in the download hits between: 1/ downloads by the end users to install the project 2/ downloads by build tools. 3/ "indirect" downloads as dependencies This is still a bit vague in my head, but I think it would be valuable for people to have such details Cheers Tarek -- Tarek Ziad? | http://ziade.org From jim at zope.com Tue Mar 22 11:33:27 2011 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:33:27 -0400 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Thoughts on more detailed stats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 5:59 AM, Tarek Ziad? wrote: > Hey, > > I find the actual downloads hits to be quite artificial because there > are some build systems out there that are fetching releases all day > long for their work. There are local mirrors of course, Not just local mirrors, but source releases that include things, download caches, etc... > but I am > pretty sure projects like zc.buildout are downloaded most of the times > by build scripts. And setuptools is downloaded mostly as a dependency > of other projects. > > Those are valid stats of course, but I was wondering if we could > provide more details in why the package was downloaded. e.g. if we're > able to distinguish automated downloads from other downloads. > > One way I was thinking of was to tell PyPI at download time if the > download was done as a dependency fetching or was a primary download > (manuall download or "pip install xxx') I don't know why downloading something as part of a buildout would be any different that doing a "pip install". I almost never download anything except with buildout. > Another way would be to ask Continuous Integration systems to use a > specific user agent marker. > > In the UI we could then make the distinction in the download hits between: > > 1/ downloads by the end users to install the project > 2/ downloads by build tools. > 3/ "indirect" downloads as dependencies > > This is still a bit vague in my head, but I think it would be valuable > for people to have such details I think it would help to ask what the goals of the statistics are? The statistics are presumably used to answer some questions. What are those questions? Jim -- Jim Fulton http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimfulton From ziade.tarek at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 11:58:34 2011 From: ziade.tarek at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tarek_Ziad=E9?=) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 11:58:34 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Thoughts on more detailed stats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Jim Fulton wrote: ... > > I don't know why downloading something as part of a buildout would be any > different that doing a "pip install". ?I almost never download anything except > with buildout. Because when you are running a buildout to install a Plone, what you are really doing is "installing Plone" -- downloading setuptools within this process is just something the build tool does to work, and does not necessarily means the final app uses it. A fresh buildout call w/ the bootstrap script == one hit to zc.buildout + one hit to setuptools When you do an explicit "pip install XXX" you are installing XXX as an end-user. > > >> Another way would be to ask Continuous Integration systems to use a >> specific user agent marker. >> >> In the UI we could then make the distinction in the download hits between: >> >> 1/ downloads by the end users to install the project >> 2/ downloads by build tools. >> 3/ "indirect" downloads as dependencies >> >> This is still a bit vague in my head, but I think it would be valuable >> for people to have such details > > I think it would help to ask what the goals of the statistics are? > The statistics are presumably used to answer some questions. What are > those questions? A/ is my project that provides end users script but also modules that can be reused by other apps, is: 1/ being installed by end users explicitly via easy_install, pip or a direct distutils install 2/ just pulled as a dependency for another project B/ does the 126543265423 download hits I get for my project were done by automated build scripts or for installations ? C/ how can we differentiate the "end users" projects in PyPI, as opposed to build tools like zc.buildout or setuptools D/ Which projects are the ones my project is mostly downloaded for as a dependency ? > Jim > > -- > Jim Fulton > http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimfulton > -- Tarek Ziad? | http://ziade.org From thomas at thomas-lotze.de Wed Mar 23 07:22:59 2011 From: thomas at thomas-lotze.de (Thomas Lotze) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 07:22:59 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Thoughts on more detailed stats References: Message-ID: Tarek Ziad? wrote: > On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Jim Fulton wrote: ... >> I think it would help to ask what the goals of the statistics are? The >> statistics are presumably used to answer some questions. What are those >> questions? > > A/ is my project that provides end users script but also modules that can > be reused by other apps, is: > > 1/ being installed by end users explicitly via easy_install, pip or a > direct distutils install > 2/ just pulled as a dependency for another project [...] These questions are already too technical for judging how the stats should be computed. I think what consumers of the stats actually want to know and what the stats therefore need to be able to answer in the end is more along the lines of: - Has my project ever been used by other people? Is it worth my time to make a nice distribution of it? - Is my project still being used? How many people get mad at me if I make incompatible changes? - How many hits does my project get compared with "the competition"? What's my "market share"? Am I cool? ;o) Not that I'd find that stuff overly interesting myself, but unless there's a really good reason to add more details to the stats, I'd strongly prefer the interaction with PyPI to remain as simple as possible. -- Thomas From chris at simplistix.co.uk Thu Mar 24 07:46:55 2011 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 06:46:55 +0000 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" Message-ID: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> Hi, Any chance we could put a block in place on packages that mention this phrase? Has anyone had any joy tracking down the author of the book that resulted in this avalanche of junk? At the very least they could publish an errata explaining their horrific mistake... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From mal at egenix.com Thu Mar 24 09:51:15 2011 From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:51:15 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" In-Reply-To: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> References: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <4D8B0603.4020305@egenix.com> Chris Withers wrote: > Hi, > > Any chance we could put a block in place on packages that mention this > phrase? > > Has anyone had any joy tracking down the author of the book that > resulted in this avalanche of junk? At the very least they could publish > an errata explaining their horrific mistake... I'm obviously missing some context here, but there are indeed quite a few copies of seemingly the same module up PyPI: http://pypi.python.org/pypi?:action=search&term=simple+printer+of+nested+lists Is it possible that the book used the module to explain creating distutils packages and uploading them to PyPI ? -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Mar 24 2011) >>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ ::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! :::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ From chris at simplistix.co.uk Thu Mar 24 10:20:29 2011 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:20:29 +0000 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" In-Reply-To: References: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <4D8B0CDD.7000500@simplistix.co.uk> On 24/03/2011 08:58, Ronald Oussoren wrote: > > On 24 Mar, 2011, at 7:46, Chris Withers wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Any chance we could put a block in place on packages that mention this phrase? >> >> Has anyone had any joy tracking down the author of the book that resulted in this avalanche of junk? At the very least they could publish an errata explaining their horrific mistake... > > It might be this one (I'm not a safari subscriber and cannot see the entire page because of that, but this page did turn up in a google search for the phrase plus the word book. Yup, I believe it's the one, and the publication date ties in with the start of the problem. Does anyone have contact details for Paul Barry? cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From richard at python.org Thu Mar 24 10:25:37 2011 From: richard at python.org (Richard Jones) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 20:25:37 +1100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" In-Reply-To: <4D8B0603.4020305@egenix.com> References: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> <4D8B0603.4020305@egenix.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 7:51 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > Is it possible that the book used the module to explain creating > distutils packages and uploading them to PyPI ? That's exactly what it is, and I have a script I run sometimes to delete the "simple printer of nested lists" packages. Richard From mal at egenix.com Thu Mar 24 10:36:19 2011 From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:36:19 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" In-Reply-To: <4D8B0CDD.7000500@simplistix.co.uk> References: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> <4D8B0CDD.7000500@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <4D8B1093.4010800@egenix.com> Chris Withers wrote: > On 24/03/2011 08:58, Ronald Oussoren wrote: >> >> On 24 Mar, 2011, at 7:46, Chris Withers wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Any chance we could put a block in place on packages that mention >>> this phrase? >>> >>> Has anyone had any joy tracking down the author of the book that >>> resulted in this avalanche of junk? At the very least they could >>> publish an errata explaining their horrific mistake... >> >> It might be this >> one >> (I'm not a safari subscriber and cannot see the entire page because of >> that, but this page did turn up in a google search for the phrase plus >> the word book. > > Yup, I believe it's the one, and the publication date ties in with the > start of the problem. > > Does anyone have contact details for Paul Barry? Google does... :-) http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/3677 -- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Mar 24 2011) >>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/ >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ ::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! :::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ From lac at openend.se Thu Mar 24 10:56:19 2011 From: lac at openend.se (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:56:19 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Withers of "Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:20:29 GMT." <4D8B0CDD.7000500@simplistix.co.uk> References: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> <4D8B0CDD.7000500@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <201103240956.p2O9uJ4Z002147@theraft.openend.se> In a message of Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:20:29 GMT, Chris Withers writes: >Yup, I believe it's the one, and the publication date ties in with the >start of the problem. > >Does anyone have contact details for Paul Barry? > >cheers, > >Chris Google does. http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/3677 But I don't have a twitter account so I cannot go any further with this. Laura From ronaldoussoren at mac.com Thu Mar 24 09:58:48 2011 From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:58:48 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" In-Reply-To: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> References: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: On 24 Mar, 2011, at 7:46, Chris Withers wrote: > Hi, > > Any chance we could put a block in place on packages that mention this phrase? > > Has anyone had any joy tracking down the author of the book that resulted in this avalanche of junk? At the very least they could publish an errata explaining their horrific mistake... It might be this one (I'm not a safari subscriber and cannot see the entire page because of that, but this page did turn up in a google search for the phrase plus the word book. Ronald From richard at python.org Thu Mar 24 12:46:59 2011 From: richard at python.org (Richard Jones) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 22:46:59 +1100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" In-Reply-To: <201103240956.p2O9uJ4Z002147@theraft.openend.se> References: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> <4D8B0CDD.7000500@simplistix.co.uk> <201103240956.p2O9uJ4Z002147@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Laura Creighton wrote: > In a message of Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:20:29 GMT, Chris Withers writes: >>Yup, I believe it's the one, and the publication date ties in with the >>start of the problem. >> >>Does anyone have contact details for Paul Barry? >> >>cheers, >> >>Chris > > Google does. ?http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/3677 > But I don't have a twitter account so I cannot go any further with this. I've previously contacted someone involved with this book - it may have been Paul, I'm not sure. Searching historical Twitter is next to useless. In any case the response was along the lines of them being OK with all the packages being created. Something about there now being more contributors to PyPI. Richard From renesd at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 12:57:25 2011 From: renesd at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Dudfield?=) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:57:25 +0000 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" In-Reply-To: References: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> <4D8B0CDD.7000500@simplistix.co.uk> <201103240956.p2O9uJ4Z002147@theraft.openend.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Richard Jones wrote: > > I've previously contacted someone involved with this book - it may > have been Paul, I'm not sure. Searching historical Twitter is next to > useless. In any case the response was along the lines of them being OK > with all the packages being created. Something about there now being > more contributors to PyPI. > Deffo. It's a win overall. Only a tiny fraction of python programmers upload their software onto pypi currently. Also it's good to have such healthy competition in the simple printing of nested lists space. From monitor at jacobian.org Thu Mar 24 22:40:18 2011 From: monitor at jacobian.org (monitor at jacobian.org) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 16:40:18 -0500 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [monit] pypi.python.org - Connection failed Message-ID: <1301002824.1@jacobian.org> Connection failed Service pypi.python.org Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 16:40:18 -0500 Action: alert Host: jacobian.org Description: failed protocol test [HTTP] at INET[pypi.python.org:80] via TCP Your faithful employee, monit From tjreedy at udel.edu Fri Mar 25 01:43:15 2011 From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 20:43:15 -0400 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" In-Reply-To: References: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> <4D8B0CDD.7000500@simplistix.co.uk> <201103240956.p2O9uJ4Z002147@theraft.openend.se>

Message-ID: On 3/24/2011 7:57 AM, Ren? Dudfield wrote: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Richard Jones wrote: >> >> I've previously contacted someone involved with this book - it may >> have been Paul, I'm not sure. Searching historical Twitter is next to >> useless. In any case the response was along the lines of them being OK >> with all the packages being created. Something about there now being >> more contributors to PyPI. There are 25 to delete at the moment ;-). > > Deffo. It's a win overall. Only a tiny fraction of python > programmers upload their software onto pypi currently. > > Also it's good to have such healthy competition in the simple printing > of nested lists space. What to book apparently lacks is instructions and an exercise in deleting a package. The first principle of operationing machines is finding the off switch before flipping the on switch. I am reminded of story of the Sorcerer's Apprentice. -- Terry Jan Reedy From richard at python.org Fri Mar 25 02:12:46 2011 From: richard at python.org (Richard Jones) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 12:12:46 +1100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] " A simple printer of nested lists" In-Reply-To: References: <4D8AE8DF.2020000@simplistix.co.uk> <4D8B0CDD.7000500@simplistix.co.uk> <201103240956.p2O9uJ4Z002147@theraft.openend.se>

Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: > On 3/24/2011 7:57 AM, Ren? Dudfield wrote: >> >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Richard Jones >> ?wrote: >>> >>> I've previously contacted someone involved with this book - it may >>> have been Paul, I'm not sure. Searching historical Twitter is next to >>> useless. In any case the response was along the lines of them being OK >>> with all the packages being created. Something about there now being >>> more contributors to PyPI. > > There are 25 to delete at the moment ;-). I really don't see this as such a big deal. There's 13875 packages in the index (as of my writing this email). 25 nested list printers are just not that important. I'll run the script when I get around to it. I should modify it first so it notifies the authors via email - it's a bit rude at the moment. Richard From renesd at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 16:54:03 2011 From: renesd at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Dudfield?=) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:54:03 +0000 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI ssh access In-Reply-To: <4D813598.1050904@notmyidea.org> References: <4D80FF23.8050702@v.loewis.de> <4D813598.1050904@notmyidea.org> Message-ID: Yes, very cool indeed. On windows, plink is very commonly used instead of ssh. Some more details about putty and plink... http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ http://rc.quest.com/topics/X_putty_openssh/ I'll report back on trying it with ubuntu when I get back to my ubuntu machine with my key on it. You'll might want to list the RSA key finger print of the server... something like: XX:XX:XX:XX:39:30:3e:99:9b:ee:XX:AA:22:22:22:22 Also you might want to gpg sign the pypissh package. 2011/3/16 Alexis M?taireau : > Le 16/03/2011 18:19, "Martin v. L?wis" a ?crit : >> I wrote a distutils extension that makes distutils >> use ssh for the upload and register commands; it's at >> > GREAT, thanks. > > -- > Alexis ? http://notmyidea.org > _______________________________________________ > Catalog-SIG mailing list > Catalog-SIG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/catalog-sig > From martin at v.loewis.de Fri Mar 25 20:44:25 2011 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 20:44:25 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] PyPI ssh access In-Reply-To: References: <4D80FF23.8050702@v.loewis.de> <4D813598.1050904@notmyidea.org> Message-ID: <4D8CF099.2010202@v.loewis.de> Am 25.03.2011 16:54, schrieb Ren? Dudfield: > Yes, very cool indeed. > > On windows, plink is very commonly used instead of ssh. Some more > details about putty and plink... I know; I didn't have Windows available when I did this. In any case, I'm considering to switch to paramiko. IIUC, this also supports pageant. > You'll might want to list the RSA key finger print of the server... > something like: > XX:XX:XX:XX:39:30:3e:99:9b:ee:XX:AA:22:22:22:22 Good idea. > Also you might want to gpg sign the pypissh package. Will do. Martin From sdouche at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 07:48:55 2011 From: sdouche at gmail.com (Sebastien Douche) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 07:48:55 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Thoughts on more detailed stats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 11:58, Tarek Ziad? wrote: >> I don't know why downloading something as part of a buildout would be any >> different that doing a "pip install". ?I almost never download anything except >> with buildout. > > Because when you are running a buildout to install a Plone, what you > are really doing is "installing Plone" -- downloading setuptools > within this process is just something the build tool does to work, and > does not necessarily means the final app uses it. Hi Tarek, from my point of view, this question is answered with categories: - Plone is an application = downloaded for itself - Python libs = dependency - Buildout or setuptools = build tools -- Sebastien Douche Twitter: @sdouche (agile, lean, python, git, open source) From techtonik at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 13:11:39 2011 From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 14:11:39 +0300 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [PATCH] Fix XHTML markup Message-ID: Hey! I've started the work to increase visibility of PyPI plumbing so that more people can help. Here is the first patch for fixing some PyPI errors. Please, CC. -- anatoly t. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fix.xhtml.markup.errors.diff Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alexis at notmyidea.org Sun Mar 27 15:45:18 2011 From: alexis at notmyidea.org (=?UTF-8?B?QWxleGlzIE3DqXRhaXJlYXU=?=) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 14:45:18 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Thoughts on more detailed stats In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <4D8F3F6E.9080008@notmyidea.org> On 23/03/2011 06:22, Thomas Lotze wrote: > Tarek Ziad? wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Jim Fulton wrote: ... >>> I think it would help to ask what the goals of the statistics are? The >>> statistics are presumably used to answer some questions. What are those >>> questions? Having a user agent defined in the clients connecting PyPI could also allow to make statistics on the usage of such tools (xx% of all the downloads on pypi.python.org are made by buildout, by the distutils2 index crawler, by pip etc.) I'm +1 on having CI tools using specific HTTP headers in order to avoid using those information as "user downloads". We can probably store this information in a different place and display clearly what the number of downloads for CI tools is on pypi.py.org -- Alexis ? http://notmyidea.org From fdrake at acm.org Sun Mar 27 17:01:40 2011 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred Drake) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 11:01:40 -0400 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Thoughts on more detailed stats In-Reply-To: <4D8F3F6E.9080008@notmyidea.org> References:

<4D8F3F6E.9080008@notmyidea.org> Message-ID: 2011/3/27 Alexis M?taireau : > Having a user agent defined in the clients connecting PyPI could also allow > to make statistics on the usage of such tools (xx% of all the downloads on > pypi.python.org are made by buildout, by the distutils2 index crawler, by > pip etc.) I don't object to this, but I don't know that it tells you anything. It is better than everything showing up as a module from the Python standard library, which clearly doesn't tell us much. > I'm +1 on having CI tools using specific HTTP headers in order to avoid > using those information as "user downloads". We can probably store this > information in a different place and display clearly what the number of > downloads for CI tools is on pypi.py.org I'd be surprised if many CI tools did a lot of downloading; the build tools are typically responsible for that. I'd expect them to show up a lot. More importantly, I'm not sure what you mean by "user downloads". If I cause my build tool to download a package from PyPI, whether once or a thousand times, that still seems like a user download to me. (zc.buildout, at least, supports an effective caching strategy, so I doubt the package download numbers would change all that much.) If I want to try out a package for some purpose, I'm going to add it to the build of the project I expect it to be useful for; if it proves insufficiently useful, I'll remove it. My point is that if you don't include the downloads from zc.buildout, or whatever tool someone is using, you're likely to miss them completely, because what's *not* happening is a browser-based download. I can't even remember the last time I've done that for something available via PyPI; it's been many years. ? -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.? ? "A storm broke loose in my mind."? --Albert Einstein From alexis at notmyidea.org Sun Mar 27 18:48:36 2011 From: alexis at notmyidea.org (=?windows-1252?Q?Alexis_M=E9taireau?=) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 17:48:36 +0100 Subject: [Catalog-sig] Thoughts on more detailed stats In-Reply-To: References:

<4D8F3F6E.9080008@notmyidea.org> Message-ID: <4D8F6A64.3000407@notmyidea.org> On 27/03/2011 16:01, Fred Drake wrote: > I don't object to this, but I don't know that it tells you anything. > It is better than everything showing up as a module from the Python > standard library, which clearly doesn't tell us much. Are you talking about the fact that the client code will be provided by packaging.index ? If so, I guess we can think about a mechanism for 3rd parties to define what the type of client originate the request. > I'd be surprised if many CI tools did a lot of downloading; the build > tools are typically responsible for that. I'd expect them to show up > a lot. True. > More importantly, I'm not sure what you mean by "user downloads". If > I cause my build tool to download a package from PyPI, whether once or > a thousand times, that still seems like a user download to me. > (zc.buildout, at least, supports an effective caching strategy, so I > doubt the package download numbers would change all that much.) I was thinking about the opposition between automated uses (build tools) and casual uses (a deployment). But given it more thoughts, it seems to be difficult to isolate one from the other (would appreciate any ideas about that) > If I want to try out a package for some purpose, I'm going to add it > to the build of the project I expect it to be useful for; if it proves > insufficiently useful, I'll remove it. > > My point is that if you don't include the downloads from zc.buildout, > or whatever tool someone is using, you're likely to miss them > completely, because what's *not* happening is a browser-based > download. I can't even remember the last time I've done that for > something available via PyPI; it's been many years. That's true: browser-based downloads are a real minority of the use cases. If we want to have a way to distinguish between "normal use", and repeated use (which can "false" the statistics), we need the build tools (or whatever does the download repeatedly) to declare themselves as such, right ? -- Alexis ? http://notmyidea.org From martin at v.loewis.de Sun Mar 27 20:36:55 2011 From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:36:55 +0200 Subject: [Catalog-sig] [PATCH] Fix XHTML markup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D8F83C7.6020801@v.loewis.de> > I've started the work to increase visibility of PyPI plumbing so that > more people can help. > Here is the first patch for fixing some PyPI errors. Thanks, applied. Regards, Martin