From bray at sent.com Thu Dec 1 05:31:58 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:31:58 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives Message-ID: Does anybody still have our archives to this list prior to September when we moved to python.org? Is it still online somewhere? From bray at sent.com Thu Dec 1 06:10:24 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:10:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> What I am *really* curious about was what modifications I made to the mathematics involved: http://brianray.chipy.org//postgreSQL/longlat.html I believe this here is A Great Circle Calculation and I somehow made some changes based on a discussion we had here on the ChiPy list. I am no longer am able to find the modifications thanks to CVS (wish I was on Subversion then). I believe the sample code was in Python, duh. Either way, feel free to comment on my blog or here on this list. I am unsure if Transact- SQL support Python the way PostgreSQL does. Yes, PosgreSQL supports Python as a Procedural Language. Either way, anybody can read Python code, right! On Nov 30, 2005, at 10:31 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > Does anybody still have our archives to this list prior to September > when we moved to python.org? Is it still online somewhere? > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 14:01:50 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:01:50 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives In-Reply-To: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> References: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0512010501kd5572a2wd30a67b0f861b51e@mail.gmail.com> I have the original list, it's not online...I promised to put it online, and then totally dropped the ball. I'll get on it. Chris From bray at sent.com Thu Dec 1 14:47:01 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:47:01 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512010501kd5572a2wd30a67b0f861b51e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010501kd5572a2wd30a67b0f861b51e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <74D1EC7A-F924-417E-AD25-091624419649@sent.com> On Dec 1, 2005, at 7:01 AM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > I have the original list, it's not online...I promised to put it > online, and then totally dropped the ball. I'll get on it. Thanks Chris. I guess there is no way to add it to the existing archive is there? Maybe Skip knows? From skip at pobox.com Thu Dec 1 15:41:19 2005 From: skip at pobox.com (skip@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:41:19 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives In-Reply-To: <74D1EC7A-F924-417E-AD25-091624419649@sent.com> References: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010501kd5572a2wd30a67b0f861b51e@mail.gmail.com> <74D1EC7A-F924-417E-AD25-091624419649@sent.com> Message-ID: <17295.2959.618281.39904@montanaro.dyndns.org> Brian> I guess there is no way to add it to the existing archive is Brian> there? Maybe Skip knows? I'm not sure that I *know*, but I certainly have direct access to various Mailman lists and can experiment... Skip From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 17:11:04 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:11:04 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives In-Reply-To: <74D1EC7A-F924-417E-AD25-091624419649@sent.com> References: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010501kd5572a2wd30a67b0f861b51e@mail.gmail.com> <74D1EC7A-F924-417E-AD25-091624419649@sent.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0512010811m1dd8ac0dwdc7fd4dc26246974@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/05, Brian Ray wrote: > Thanks Chris. Despite my role as "guy who used to work in backups" I lost the archives. Sorry folks. I ran a final backup before shutting down the old server, but that backup missed. Sorry all, Chris From bray at sent.com Thu Dec 1 17:24:20 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:24:20 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512010811m1dd8ac0dwdc7fd4dc26246974@mail.gmail.com> References: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010501kd5572a2wd30a67b0f861b51e@mail.gmail.com> <74D1EC7A-F924-417E-AD25-091624419649@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010811m1dd8ac0dwdc7fd4dc26246974@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2005, at 10:11 AM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > Despite my role as "guy who used to work in backups" I lost the > archives. Sorry folks. I ran a final backup before shutting down the > old server, but that backup missed. It's not a big deal. Thanks for taking a look. Although, next time a bring up an old topic, you can not tell me to search the archives :p -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051201/ce31e949/attachment.htm From list at phaedrusdeinus.org Thu Dec 1 17:29:28 2005 From: list at phaedrusdeinus.org (johnnnn) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:29:28 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512010811m1dd8ac0dwdc7fd4dc26246974@mail.gmail.com> References: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010501kd5572a2wd30a67b0f861b51e@mail.gmail.com> <74D1EC7A-F924-417E-AD25-091624419649@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010811m1dd8ac0dwdc7fd4dc26246974@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <438F24E8.9070906@phaedrusdeinus.org> I have the archives back to about April 4th in my IMAP folder. Brian, if the thread you're talking about was named "[chiPy] Distance Between Zips", i seem to have the whole thing. I can tarball it up for you (Maildir messages), if you'd like. -johnnnnnnnnnnnnn Chris McAvoy wrote: >On 12/1/05, Brian Ray wrote: > > >>Thanks Chris. >> >> > >Despite my role as "guy who used to work in backups" I lost the >archives. Sorry folks. I ran a final backup before shutting down the >old server, but that backup missed. > >Sorry all, >Chris >_______________________________________________ >Chicago mailing list >Chicago at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051201/6c31c468/attachment.html From bray at sent.com Thu Dec 1 17:39:48 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:39:48 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives In-Reply-To: <438F24E8.9070906@phaedrusdeinus.org> References: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010501kd5572a2wd30a67b0f861b51e@mail.gmail.com> <74D1EC7A-F924-417E-AD25-091624419649@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010811m1dd8ac0dwdc7fd4dc26246974@mail.gmail.com> <438F24E8.9070906@phaedrusdeinus.org> Message-ID: <9739657D-B00C-4CB3-A217-20B4C6AC1525@sent.com> On Dec 1, 2005, at 10:29 AM, johnnnn wrote: > Brian, if the thread you're talking about was named "[chiPy] > Distance Between Zips", i seem to have the whole thing. I can > tarball it up for you (Maildir messages), if you'd like. Sure, that would be nice. From skip at pobox.com Thu Dec 1 18:46:07 2005 From: skip at pobox.com (skip@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:46:07 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512010811m1dd8ac0dwdc7fd4dc26246974@mail.gmail.com> References: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010501kd5572a2wd30a67b0f861b51e@mail.gmail.com> <74D1EC7A-F924-417E-AD25-091624419649@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010811m1dd8ac0dwdc7fd4dc26246974@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17295.14047.342030.263947@montanaro.dyndns.org> Chris> Despite my role as "guy who used to work in backups" I lost the Chris> archives. Wayback Machine to the rescue? http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://chipy.org I don't have time to poke around, but maybe, just maybe, some of the old list archives are there. Skip From RCRamsdell at gldd.com Thu Dec 1 21:44:22 2005 From: RCRamsdell at gldd.com (RCRamsdell@gldd.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:44:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [Chicago Area Ruby Group] Django / Rails Meeting Message-ID: Is the Django/Rails thing our meeting for the month? Robert > -----Original Message----- > From: chicago-bounces at python.org > [mailto:chicago-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Chris McAvoy > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 6:30 AM > To: The Chicago Python Users Group; ws at johnwlong.com > Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [Chicago Area Ruby Group] Django / > Rails Meeting > > > Hi ChiPy, > > A date and location have been set for the Django / Rails > presentation I mentioned last week. December 3rd at DePaul. > The details are here: http://snakesandrubies.com > > This mini-conference is going to be a great opportunity for > all the local users groups to get together and compare web > development notes. > It's pretty exciting. > > Chris > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: John W. Long > Date: Nov 17, 2005 1:05 AM > Subject: [Chicago Area Ruby Group] Django / Rails Meeting > To: Chicago Area Ruby Group > > > We're on! > http://snakesandrubies.com Let the advertising campaign begin. :) -- John _______________________________________________ ChicagoGroup-Members-List mailing list ChicagoGroup-Members-List at rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/chicagogroup-members-list _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Dec 1 21:46:10 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 14:46:10 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django / Rails Meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438F6112.1000106@colorstudy.com> RCRamsdell at gldd.com wrote: > Is the Django/Rails thing our meeting for the month? I've been meaning to ask about this. I don't think it should be. It would be nice, for instance, if we could pick up some new members from Saturday. Maybe we can make it a purely social meeting? -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 22:03:21 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:03:21 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django / Rails Meeting In-Reply-To: <438F6112.1000106@colorstudy.com> References: <438F6112.1000106@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0512011303sb7c1641y35b749f9f6411e3e@mail.gmail.com> On 12/1/05, Ian Bicking wrote: > RCRamsdell at gldd.com wrote: > > Is the Django/Rails thing our meeting for the month? > > I've been meaning to ask about this. I don't think it should be. It > would be nice, for instance, if we could pick up some new members from > Saturday. I hadn't thought about it...this Saturday thing sort of tied up my user group planning cycles. > Maybe we can make it a purely social meeting? I'm a social being. I'd be down for this. I really don't want to plan for Thursday. Chris From ehs at pobox.com Thu Dec 1 22:30:03 2005 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:30:03 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django / Rails Meeting In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512011303sb7c1641y35b749f9f6411e3e@mail.gmail.com> References: <438F6112.1000106@colorstudy.com> <3096c19d0512011303sb7c1641y35b749f9f6411e3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maybe we could all go out and grab some food/drinks after the snakes/rubies thing. //Ed -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051201/f5b973ab/attachment.html From david at graniteweb.com Thu Dec 1 23:58:45 2005 From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:58:45 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] News group archives In-Reply-To: <17295.14047.342030.263947@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <5CA51585-D824-429E-A97F-069B793E3235@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010501kd5572a2wd30a67b0f861b51e@mail.gmail.com> <74D1EC7A-F924-417E-AD25-091624419649@sent.com> <3096c19d0512010811m1dd8ac0dwdc7fd4dc26246974@mail.gmail.com> <17295.14047.342030.263947@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051201225845.GA29271@wdfs.graniteweb.com> * skip at pobox.com [2005-12-01 11:46]: > > Chris> Despite my role as "guy who used to work in backups" I lost the > Chris> archives. > > Wayback Machine to the rescue? > > http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://chipy.org > > I don't have time to poke around, but maybe, just maybe, some of the old > list archives are there. I have just about every email ever sent stored here, I'll see what I can find :-) -- David Rock david at graniteweb.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051201/0e474571/attachment.pgp From rc.dillenburg at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 02:23:25 2005 From: rc.dillenburg at gmail.com (Russell Dillenburg) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:23:25 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django / Rails Meeting In-Reply-To: References: <438F6112.1000106@colorstudy.com> <3096c19d0512011303sb7c1641y35b749f9f6411e3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <408c01040512011723w442bdc64ha6a3e19a9af212eb@mail.gmail.com> Will there be a suburbs meeting this month? On 12/1/05, Ed Summers wrote: > > Maybe we could all go out and grab some food/drinks after the > snakes/rubies thing. > > //Ed > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051201/d234c72a/attachment.html From david at graniteweb.com Fri Dec 2 06:44:22 2005 From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:44:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django / Rails Meeting In-Reply-To: <408c01040512011723w442bdc64ha6a3e19a9af212eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <438F6112.1000106@colorstudy.com> <3096c19d0512011303sb7c1641y35b749f9f6411e3e@mail.gmail.com> <408c01040512011723w442bdc64ha6a3e19a9af212eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051202054422.GA30693@wdfs.graniteweb.com> * Russell Dillenburg [2005-12-01 19:23]: > Will there be a suburbs meeting this month? It's a possibility. I thought I was going to be somewhere else, but that fell through, so Downers Grove may be available. -- David Rock david at graniteweb.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051201/4b3747af/attachment.pgp From mtobis at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 23:04:33 2005 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 16:04:33 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks Message-ID: So how did the Django/Rails showdown go? (I didn't manage to show up despite best of intentions.) Is a streamed record going to be available? Also is there/should there be a ChiPy meeting this week? mt From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Mon Dec 5 23:37:39 2005 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 16:37:39 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > So how did the Django/Rails showdown go? Check this link: http://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2005/dec/04/snakes_and_rubies/ ...or.... Do a search for "snakes and rubies" at technorati.com for lots of blogged impressions of the event... I was there, too, and I'll probably blog about it at some point. By the way, at the time of this email's date/time stamp... "snakes and rubies" was #9 on the top 10 searched for items at technorati.com. For a summary of the event: "A good time was had by all." My favorite moment was when a guy in the audience raised his hand way late in the night asking (and I'm paraphrasing) "What about Perl? You both keep bashing PHP and Java, but why doesn't Perl even get a mention?" :-) As they say... "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." On that note, I'm surprised no one raised their hands to chime in about VB or C# not getting slammed either. Anyway, thank you and congrats to all the ChiPy folks involved in putting the event together and to Adrian for giving a kick-ass presentation! > Is a streamed record going to be available? There were lots of "official" video cameras at the event. I believe either the snakesandrubies.com site or djangoproject.com will have links to the video and audio when they become available. > Also is there/should there be a ChiPy meeting this week? I don't know about the ChiPy meeting this week... but I think the consensus is just getting together and drinking? I'll actually be burning some karma and attending the Ruby meetup tonight, which is, coincidentally, in my office here at ThoughtWorks... (http://ruby.meetup.com/55/events/?eventId=4796341&action=detail) Don't worry I haven't sold my soul. You know the phrase.... "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer". :-) - Jason P.S. Chipmunks? From ianb at colorstudy.com Mon Dec 5 23:41:13 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 16:41:13 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4394C209.1020902@colorstudy.com> Jason R Huggins wrote: >>Also is there/should there be a ChiPy meeting this week? > > I don't know about the ChiPy meeting this week... but I think the > consensus is just getting together and drinking? This I concur! Where then shall we meet? -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From jason at multiply.org Mon Dec 5 23:58:25 2005 From: jason at multiply.org (Jason Gessner) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 16:58:25 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9059B73C-E3A6-43C3-98E7-B7A2B0FF03F6@multiply.org> On Dec 5, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Jason R Huggins wrote: > >> Is a streamed record going to be available? > There were lots of "official" video cameras at the event. I believe > either > the snakesandrubies.com site or djangoproject.com will have links > to the > video and audio when they become available. as part of the AV squad i can assure you that we will have something up soon. :) I would imagine audio going up before video, but we have enough material to release most of the afternoon. We may even edit out the projector mishaps. ;) -jason gessner jason at multiply.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051205/e6c2935b/attachment.html From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 00:17:55 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:17:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks In-Reply-To: <9059B73C-E3A6-43C3-98E7-B7A2B0FF03F6@multiply.org> References: <9059B73C-E3A6-43C3-98E7-B7A2B0FF03F6@multiply.org> Message-ID: <3096c19d0512051517s645846v8196d47fed36a755@mail.gmail.com> >We may even edit out the projector mishaps. ;) But the world will then be deprived of video footage of me tottering on a chair, and Rob actually fixing stuff. Chris From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 00:19:00 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:19:00 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks In-Reply-To: <4394C209.1020902@colorstudy.com> References: <4394C209.1020902@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0512051519o23d99b3fid0fa0f12d389f2b8@mail.gmail.com> > > I don't know about the ChiPy meeting this week... but I think the > > consensus is just getting together and drinking? > > This I concur! Where then shall we meet? I'm all for it. I don't know where to meet though, and am seriously burnt out on scheduling. If the loop is good for all (which it never is) that Monk's place by Performics always seems to be pretty empty. Chris From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Tue Dec 6 00:20:35 2005 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:20:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks In-Reply-To: <9059B73C-E3A6-43C3-98E7-B7A2B0FF03F6@multiply.org> Message-ID: jason gessner wrote on 12/05/2005 04:58:25 PM: > We may even edit out the projector mishaps. ;) Yes, please do... man, that projector... talk about a buzz kill. ;-) However, you might want to offer both edited and unedited versions (with advice on why the edited one is better) and let folks decide which one to watch/listen to, lest we get Nixon-era conspiracy theorists barking about the "missing" 60 minutes of audio. - The "other" Jason From chipy at holovaty.com Mon Dec 5 23:10:35 2005 From: chipy at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:10:35 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Washington Post congress votes site: Python/Django-powered Message-ID: <20051205171035.tzwxu14sy75wk8ss@holovaty.com> Just a quick announcement: At work, we've launched the U.S. Congress Votes Database, which lets you browse every vote in the U.S. Congress since 1991. There's an RSS feed for every member of Congress and all sorts of vote breakdowns (including a breakdown for each vote by astrological sign). Naturally, it's powered by Python/Django. Check it out! http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/ Adrian From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Tue Dec 6 00:48:40 2005 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:48:40 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Adrian's done it again! (U.S. Congress Votes DB powered by Django) Message-ID: Forget Snakes and Rubies, folks... that was sooooo 2 days ago.... The next big thing: http://www.holovaty.com/blog/archive/2005/12/05/1513 ... and some meta-blogging about Adrian's blog for the meta-cognitive peeps in the house... http://www.inkdroid.org/journal/2005/12/05/washington-posts-us-congress-votes-database/ So, will we see Mr. Holovaty on Meet the Press sometime soon? - Jason Huggins From kapteynr at cboe.com Tue Dec 6 00:47:57 2005 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Kapteyn, Rob) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:47:57 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks Message-ID: I think some celebration is in order. Adrian kicked butt ! -----Original Message----- From: chicago-bounces+rob=tallchicago.org at python.org [mailto:chicago-bounces+rob=tallchicago.org at python.org]On Behalf Of Ian Bicking Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:41 PM To: The Chicago Python Users Group Subject: Re: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks Jason R Huggins wrote: >>Also is there/should there be a ChiPy meeting this week? > > I don't know about the ChiPy meeting this week... but I think the > consensus is just getting together and drinking? This I concur! Where then shall we meet? -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From rc.dillenburg at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 02:37:10 2005 From: rc.dillenburg at gmail.com (Russell Dillenburg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:37:10 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512051519o23d99b3fid0fa0f12d389f2b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4394C209.1020902@colorstudy.com> <3096c19d0512051519o23d99b3fid0fa0f12d389f2b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <408c01040512051737m4d9d42d3j38947b8603966381@mail.gmail.com> The last ChiPy meeting I attended was on of the summer ones with Adrian presenting Django. If I remember in some earlier thread, there was talk about being overdue for a suburbs meeting. My office is up in the northern suburbs and I commute along 294 and 88. Russ On 12/5/05, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > > I don't know about the ChiPy meeting this week... but I think the > > > consensus is just getting together and drinking? > > > > This I concur! Where then shall we meet? > > I'm all for it. I don't know where to meet though, and am seriously > burnt out on scheduling. If the loop is good for all (which it never > is) that Monk's place by Performics always seems to be pretty empty. > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051205/893f5b51/attachment.htm From chipy at holovaty.com Tue Dec 6 03:49:34 2005 From: chipy at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 20:49:34 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ... U.S. Congress Votes DB powered by Django In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512052049.34338.chipy@holovaty.com> Jason R Huggins wrote: > So, will we see Mr. Holovaty on Meet the Press sometime soon? Not unless it's a discussion of whether template languages should include full programming-language syntax. :-) Adrian From bray at sent.com Tue Dec 6 04:17:26 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 21:17:26 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ... U.S. Congress Votes DB powered by Django In-Reply-To: <200512052049.34338.chipy@holovaty.com> References: <200512052049.34338.chipy@holovaty.com> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2005, at 8:49 PM, Adrian Holovaty wrote: > Not unless it's a discussion of whether template languages should > include full > programming-language syntax. Got Welsh? From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Tue Dec 6 04:22:01 2005 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 21:22:01 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ... U.S. Congress Votes DB powered by Django In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Brian Ray wrote on 12/05/2005 09:17:26 PM: > Got Welsh? First one to get that up on a t-shirt (or thong!) at CafePress.com gets a cookie. - Jason From rc.dillenburg at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 05:20:53 2005 From: rc.dillenburg at gmail.com (Russell Dillenburg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:20:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ... U.S. Congress Votes DB powered by Django In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <408c01040512052020h586503f0r6d63d4abe1acb6b6@mail.gmail.com> what kind of cookie? On 12/5/05, Jason R Huggins wrote: > > Brian Ray wrote on 12/05/2005 09:17:26 PM: > > Got Welsh? > > First one to get that up on a t-shirt (or thong!) at CafePress.com gets a > cookie. > > - Jason > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051205/769ea067/attachment.htm From chipy at holovaty.com Tue Dec 6 05:23:16 2005 From: chipy at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:23:16 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ... U.S. Congress Votes DB powered by Django In-Reply-To: <408c01040512052020h586503f0r6d63d4abe1acb6b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <408c01040512052020h586503f0r6d63d4abe1acb6b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512052223.16794.chipy@holovaty.com> Russell Dillenburg wrote: > what kind of cookie? One that doesn't expire until 2038! Adrian P.S. http://www.google-watch.org/cgi-bin/cookie.htm From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Dec 6 09:12:39 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 02:12:39 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439547F7.1010407@colorstudy.com> While we're on the topic, Python and Django both show up in the latest clip from Why: http://redhanded.hobix.com/inspect/todaySAllReruns.html ("If you don?t want to bother watching it, the moral is that love conquers all. (Where love and ruby are interchangeable terms.)") -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From ehs at pobox.com Tue Dec 6 14:24:22 2005 From: ehs at pobox.com (Edward Summers) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 07:24:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] snakes and rubies and chipmunks In-Reply-To: <439547F7.1010407@colorstudy.com> References: <439547F7.1010407@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2005, at 2:12 AM, Ian Bicking wrote: > Why: http://redhanded.hobix.com/inspect/todaySAllReruns.html Lovely, thanks Ian. It certainly looked like Adrian had arms and legs on Saturday :-) //Ed From jason at multiply.org Tue Dec 6 16:48:27 2005 From: jason at multiply.org (Jason Gessner) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:48:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Open Source Dynamic Language Holiday Bash? Message-ID: Hi All. What do you think about having a nice big happy cross language social event next week or early the following week? Monk's @ lake & wells was thrown out as an idea, but any place should be fine. John, could you pass this on to the ruby group as well? Thoughts? -jason gessner jason at multiply.org From bray at sent.com Tue Dec 6 17:22:47 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:22:47 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Open Source Dynamic Language Holiday Bash? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A3528E2-EDE0-4C3E-9EFE-2F09395CE46F@sent.com> Do anybody know what Monk's smoking policy is? I would prefer no smoke because I may invite someone who has asthma. From list at phaedrusdeinus.org Tue Dec 6 17:24:35 2005 From: list at phaedrusdeinus.org (johnnnn) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 10:24:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Open Source Dynamic Language Holiday Bash? In-Reply-To: <3A3528E2-EDE0-4C3E-9EFE-2F09395CE46F@sent.com> References: <3A3528E2-EDE0-4C3E-9EFE-2F09395CE46F@sent.com> Message-ID: <4395BB43.7090603@phaedrusdeinus.org> Monk's involves smoke, most certainly. -johnnnnnnnnnn Brian Ray wrote: > Do anybody know what Monk's smoking policy is? I would prefer no > smoke because I may invite someone who has asthma. > From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Tue Dec 6 22:22:41 2005 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:22:41 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fw: ... U.S. Congress Votes DB powered by Django (t-shirts for django) Message-ID: > > Got Welsh? > > First one to get that up on a t-shirt (or thong!) at CafePress.com gets a > cookie. On second thought... if I were going to have a t-shirt printed... I think I'd rather have one that says: "I wish I were powered by Django". Proceeds would go to the ChiPy pizza, I mean, scholarship fund. - Jason P.S. chocolate chip From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 19:50:46 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:50:46 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Apparently, I hate Ajax Message-ID: <3096c19d0512071050p3c1f1cc7sae234bdc87a112f1@mail.gmail.com> http://www.usabilityviews.com/ajaxsucks.html Check out the very bottom of the page, "constructed by Chris McEvoy" Not me. My name has an A. Still, that's pretty cool, that somewhere I have an evil nemesis. Chris From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 20:59:55 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:59:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Open Source Dynamic Language Holiday Bash? In-Reply-To: <4395BB43.7090603@phaedrusdeinus.org> References: <3A3528E2-EDE0-4C3E-9EFE-2F09395CE46F@sent.com> <4395BB43.7090603@phaedrusdeinus.org> Message-ID: <3096c19d0512071159x6318560do1706ffe20f92a109@mail.gmail.com> Howdy all, Sadly, I can't think of any places in Chicago that are smoke-free, and still easy enough to coordinate a meet up / drink up at. Sorry folks. So, I nominate Monks for tomorrow night. That place is usually pretty not-crowded. How about tomorrow night at 7pm? Chris From maney at two14.net Thu Dec 8 01:15:36 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:15:36 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Apparently, I hate Ajax In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512071050p3c1f1cc7sae234bdc87a112f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <3096c19d0512071050p3c1f1cc7sae234bdc87a112f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051208001536.GA8350@furrr.two14.net> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 12:50:46PM -0600, Chris McAvoy wrote: > http://www.usabilityviews.com/ajaxsucks.html ... > Still, that's pretty cool, that somewhere I have an evil nemesis. It's also cool to see how well those same issues do fit Ajax. I don't seem to have encountered a great many Ajaxy sites, but they feel to me like they're logically valid but in practice fairly irrelevant. Unlike pages built using frames, they don't feel much like "regular" web pages, and at least most of the issues feel like "well, yeah, you wouldn't expect that to work here." I think. Tenatively. Anyway, here's a real Nielsen page: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html I'd be tempted to call it "le plus ca change, le plus c'est la mem chose", but it's too annoying to get the proper accent marks into that, so instead I'll suggest that it goes some way to proving that the web is part of the software industry: here comes version 2 when they still haven't gotten version 1 working right! -- Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the law. - Justice John Paul Stevens, from his dissenting opinion Dec 12, 2000 From pfein at pobox.com Thu Dec 8 06:19:46 2005 From: pfein at pobox.com (Peter Fein) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 23:19:46 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Apparently, I hate Ajax In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512071050p3c1f1cc7sae234bdc87a112f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <3096c19d0512071050p3c1f1cc7sae234bdc87a112f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4397C272.9090101@pobox.com> Remember, I hate the web. ;) See OT: the web sucks, from 4/20/05 Chris McAvoy wrote: > http://www.usabilityviews.com/ajaxsucks.html > > Check out the very bottom of the page, "constructed by Chris McEvoy" > > Not me. My name has an A. > > Still, that's pretty cool, that somewhere I have an evil nemesis. > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -- Peter Fein pfein at pobox.com 773-575-0694 Basically, if you're not a utopianist, you're a schmuck. -J. Feldman From mtobis at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 15:59:06 2005 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:59:06 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Open Source Dynamic Language Holiday Bash? In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512071159x6318560do1706ffe20f92a109@mail.gmail.com> References: <3A3528E2-EDE0-4C3E-9EFE-2F09395CE46F@sent.com> <4395BB43.7090603@phaedrusdeinus.org> <3096c19d0512071159x6318560do1706ffe20f92a109@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I will show up and make sure it is a nontrivial turnout. You mean this place (205 W Lake)? http://centerstage.net/restaurants/monks-pub.html At least two people will be there. mt From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Thu Dec 8 16:05:22 2005 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 09:05:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Apparently, I hate Ajax In-Reply-To: <4397C272.9090101@pobox.com> Message-ID: Peter Fein wrote on 12/07/2005 11:19:46 PM: > Remember, I hate the web. ;) > See OT: the web sucks, from 4/20/05 I would if we had archives. :-) Yet again, Google saves the day: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:cysMs3RryA4J:www.lonelylion.com/pipermail/chipy/2005-April/001210.html+%22OT:+the+web+sucks%22&hl=en&client=firefox-a For the "less is more" fans in the house: http://tinyurl.com/bjpmw -Jason From mtobis at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 16:29:34 2005 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 09:29:34 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Apparently, I hate Ajax In-Reply-To: References: <4397C272.9090101@pobox.com> Message-ID: I agree with all the gripes. The problem is the distribution mechanism. iTunes is a thing of beauty, but iTunes comes from a trusted vendor. Some app that you or I put together doesn't. If I want to write a little tutorial that explains the greenhouse effect with an animation rather than a couple of confusing diagrams (see http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=212 for instance. There's a three-part picture in the middle of the page that my boss put together that would be much more informative as an animation.) I can't ask you to download an application for this because 1) you don't know who I am and don't especially trust me and 2) you aren't THAT interested. Scientists usually resort to clunky Java applets, because Flash is essentially unknown in academic circles, but so far Flash seems to be the best solution. It's a pity it's proprietary. Maybe client-side Java will return someday. How about Jython applets? mt From garrett at mojave-corp.com Thu Dec 8 16:17:00 2005 From: garrett at mojave-corp.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 09:17:00 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Open Source Dynamic Language Holiday Bash? Message-ID: <20051208151415.A8E80186935@server2.mojave-corp.com> There's an Illinois Technology Association holdiday drinking deal (is there any other kind?) at 6 tonight, which I'm planning on making an appearance at -- but I'll meander over to Monks shortly thereafter. So count me in, assuming Monks is still happening at 7. Garrett On Thursday, December 08, 2005 8:59 AM, chicago-bounces at python.org wrote: > I will show up and make sure it is a nontrivial turnout. > > You mean this place (205 W Lake)? > > http://centerstage.net/restaurants/monks-pub.html > > At least two people will be there. > > mt > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 16:53:11 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 09:53:11 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Open Source Dynamic Language Holiday Bash? In-Reply-To: References: <3A3528E2-EDE0-4C3E-9EFE-2F09395CE46F@sent.com> <4395BB43.7090603@phaedrusdeinus.org> <3096c19d0512071159x6318560do1706ffe20f92a109@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0512080753t2cf2ededqd245fe269bd2c338@mail.gmail.com> On 12/8/05, Michael Tobis wrote: > I will show up and make sure it is a nontrivial turnout. > > You mean this place (205 W Lake)? > > http://centerstage.net/restaurants/monks-pub.html > > At least two people will be there. I'll be there, which makes at least three. Note that I've added Perl and Ruby to the email. The Perl folks seem to have Monk's fever for tonight. Are the Ruby folks on board? Chris From garrett at mojave-corp.com Thu Dec 8 20:49:00 2005 From: garrett at mojave-corp.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 13:49:00 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] $10 f/unlimited beer - (was Open Source Dynamic Language Holiday Bash?) Message-ID: <20051208194620.EDE4818690F@server2.mojave-corp.com> Where are we at on this? Is it firm for Monks at 7? I have one other suggestion, particularly if the crowd isn't going to be huge. The ITA (Illionois Tech Association) is having an event with $10 for ALL YOU CAN DRINK BEER. That's 10 US dollars, so it's a very, very good thing. It's open to anyone. It's at 6pm at McFadden’s Restaurant and Saloon, 1206 N. State Parkway (corner of State & Division). Here's a link http://www.illinoistech.org/mtool/click.pl/118?associationnews.aspx/94 I'm not exactly sure what would happen if 30 people showed, but I think 20 or less would go unnoticed. Anyway, just another suggestion (I just found out about the good deal a few minutes ago). Garrett On Thursday, December 08, 2005 9:53 AM, chicago-bounces at python.org wrote: > On 12/8/05, Michael Tobis wrote: >> I will show up and make sure it is a nontrivial turnout. >> >> You mean this place (205 W Lake)? >> >> http://centerstage.net/restaurants/monks-pub.html >> >> At least two people will be there. > > I'll be there, which makes at least three. Note that I've added Perl > and Ruby to the email. The Perl folks seem to have Monk's fever for > tonight. Are the Ruby folks on board? > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From varmaa at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 21:42:35 2005 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 14:42:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Apparently, I hate Ajax In-Reply-To: References: <4397C272.9090101@pobox.com> Message-ID: <361b27370512081242tc59658fla354a3589de9ad9f@mail.gmail.com> On 12/8/05, Michael Tobis wrote: > If I want to write a little tutorial that explains the greenhouse > effect with an animation rather than a couple of confusing diagrams > (see > http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=212 > for instance. There's a three-part picture in the middle of the page > that my boss put together that would be much more informative as an > animation.) I can't ask you to download an application for this > because 1) you don't know who I am and don't especially trust me and > 2) you aren't THAT interested. Well, aside from that, a separate application usually implies a lot more inconvenience and confusion than something on a web page: telling a novice user how to download and launch an executable is non-trivial because it differs depending on their browser and operating system, and even for experienced users it still involves a lot of steps. On top of that, there's usually an installer involved, which itself requires lots of clicking, and then you've got this separate application on your computer that you have to figure out how to launch, use, and subsequently uninstall. The big advantage of doing everything over the web is that you only have to learn how to use one application: the web browser. For instance, my barely-computer-literate dad doesn't even care if he uses Linux, OS X, or Windows--he uses all three--because the only app he uses is a web browser, which works the same way on any platform. I don't think my dad actually understands the concept of what an application even *is*, because he only uses one. And that's nice for him, because it means less annoying complexities to learn. Personally, I don't find desktop GUI's to be all that usable; widgets, pull-down menus, dialog boxes, and overlapping windows usually add a lot of complexity to an application and make it more confusing to use. In fact, the worst Web 2.0 apps I've seen, usability-wise, are the ones that try to imitate a standard desktop application. What I like about the whole Web 2.0 movement is the fact that it gives web developers a sort of "blank slate" for making usable, humane interfaces that don't rely on any kind of UI tradition. Gmail, for instance, is called "quirky" by some because it doesn't really work like a traditional web app, nor does it work like a standard desktop GUI app--yet it's far more usable than either. As far as desktop apps go, if I have to make one, I've found that I prefer creating a custom, non-GUI interface using Pygame. It's surprisingly a lot easier than giving myself a refresher course on the horrible complexities of wxPython and creating an application that looks prettier but treats the user worse. - Atul From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 22:08:30 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 15:08:30 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Cancel tonight? Message-ID: <3096c19d0512081308m31cb4cces2036fec26add3294@mail.gmail.com> It's awfully snowy outside. Am I being a wimp? Does this make anyone want to cancel? Chris From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Dec 8 22:10:01 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:10:01 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Cancel tonight? In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512081308m31cb4cces2036fec26add3294@mail.gmail.com> References: <3096c19d0512081308m31cb4cces2036fec26add3294@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4398A129.5080900@colorstudy.com> Chris McAvoy wrote: > It's awfully snowy outside. Am I being a wimp? > > Does this make anyone want to cancel? I was just going to take the train, so I don't really care about the weather so much. -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 22:39:59 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 15:39:59 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Cancel tonight? In-Reply-To: <4398A129.5080900@colorstudy.com> References: <3096c19d0512081308m31cb4cces2036fec26add3294@mail.gmail.com> <4398A129.5080900@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0512081339s6872c831la91c2c3a2f70f107@mail.gmail.com> On 12/8/05, Perl Person Jess Balint wrote: > Yes, you are being a wimp. We are going to be INSIDE where it's not snowy. > :p > > Jess On 12/8/05, Python Person Ian Bicking wrote: > Chris McAvoy wrote: > > It's awfully snowy outside. Am I being a wimp? > > > > Does this make anyone want to cancel? > > I was just going to take the train, so I don't really care about the > weather so much. Ok...I guess I'm being a wimp. I'll be there. Chris From maney at two14.net Thu Dec 8 23:49:40 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:49:40 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Apparently, I hate Ajax In-Reply-To: References: <4397C272.9090101@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20051208224940.GA9666@furrr.two14.net> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 09:05:22AM -0600, Jason R Huggins wrote: > Peter Fein wrote on 12/07/2005 11:19:46 PM: > > Remember, I hate the web. ;) > > See OT: the web sucks, from 4/20/05 > Yet again, Google saves the day: > http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:cysMs3RryA4J:www.lonelylion.com/pipermail/chipy/2005-April/001210.html+%22OT:+the+web+sucks%22&hl=en&client=firefox-a Which reminds us that Ajax is an attempt to tackle Peter's points 3 and 4, and helps with #2 after the initial page load, which is a win for those who don't leave it immediately. At least in theory... -- Self-pity is like sitting there and peeing your pants: at first, it's warm and comfy, but pretty soon it gets cold and then it starts to stink. - anonymous, as is traditional From maney at two14.net Fri Dec 9 00:21:49 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:21:49 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Cancel tonight? In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0512081308m31cb4cces2036fec26add3294@mail.gmail.com> References: <3096c19d0512081308m31cb4cces2036fec26add3294@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051208232149.GA11414@furrr.two14.net> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 03:08:30PM -0600, Chris McAvoy wrote: > It's awfully snowy outside. Am I being a wimp? > > Does this make anyone want to cancel? Nope. I hope to hear that all you city wimps demonstarted the superiority of a car-free way of life and attended despite the somewhat inclement conditions. (heck, I recall once walking from Union station to some hotel near Navy Pier to meet an out of town friend in weather that was rather colder, if less snow-falling-down'ly, than tonight. after which we went out walking around to pick a place to eat. Cally and I did have the sense to take a cab on the way *back*, though.) -- I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect our customers ... Our products just aren't engineered for security. -- Brian Valentine, Microsoft Senior VP in charge of the Windows development team From pfein at pobox.com Fri Dec 9 18:40:34 2005 From: pfein at pobox.com (Peter Fein) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:40:34 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] It's lonely on #chipy Message-ID: <4399C192.2060509@pobox.com> I've started hanging out on #chipy. I've usually got 3 or 4 IRC/Jabber windows open anyway... Come join. -- Peter Fein pfein at pobox.com 773-575-0694 Basically, if you're not a utopianist, you're a schmuck. -J. Feldman From bray at sent.com Tue Dec 20 22:31:53 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:31:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Washington Post congress votes site: Python/Django-powered In-Reply-To: <20051205171035.tzwxu14sy75wk8ss@holovaty.com> References: <20051205171035.tzwxu14sy75wk8ss@holovaty.com> Message-ID: <3D070A60-DC57-4B91-82CC-181CA656DB51@sent.com> Why do the total votes not equal 435? I went back to the link to Library of Congress results and they are being displayed correctly, although can somebody help me understand this piece of trivia? On Dec 5, 2005, at 4:10 PM, Adrian Holovaty wrote: > Just a quick announcement: At work, we've launched the U.S. > Congress Votes > Database, which lets you browse every vote in the U.S. Congress > since 1991. > There's an RSS feed for every member of Congress and all sorts of vote > breakdowns (including a breakdown for each vote by astrological sign). > Naturally, it's powered by Python/Django. Check it out! > > http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/ From chipy at holovaty.com Tue Dec 20 22:49:04 2005 From: chipy at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:49:04 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Washington Post congress votes site: Python/Django-powered In-Reply-To: <3D070A60-DC57-4B91-82CC-181CA656DB51@sent.com> References: <20051205171035.tzwxu14sy75wk8ss@holovaty.com> <3D070A60-DC57-4B91-82CC-181CA656DB51@sent.com> Message-ID: <200512201549.05089.chipy@holovaty.com> Brian Ray wrote: > Why do the total votes not equal 435? > > A House seat in California is open. Adrian From mtobis at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 23:11:01 2005 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:11:01 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django and Rails and PHP (oh my!) Message-ID: Chithonistas, At the first ChiPy beer meeting, largely at Chris's instigation, we discussed the promotion of Python vs PHP as a first language. This topic has come up recently on comp.lang.py in the topic "Which Python web framework is most like Ruby on Rails?" Clearly the Ruby/Rails folks are making an effort to place themselves as an easy-to-learn first language for people who might otherwise drift into the rather awkward template-first way of thinking that is PHP. I note that the Rails people are closely affiliated with the 37signals people who in turn are closely linked with some advertising professionals. Python people don't really think that way. As a community we really seem to inherit the open source dysfunction of trying harder to impress each other than to reach out to the rest of the world. The problem is that this makes for amazing brilliance that is more or less invisible to most of the world. This leaves me believing that the commercial future is probably brighter for Ruby vs Python. This won't affect the fact that Python is probably still going to prevail in the scientific community, since scientists aren't all that susceptible to promotion. That being the case I don't think I myself will jump ship. Since I am casting my lot with Python rather than Ruby, I think we should take the friendly rivalry seriously rather than just shrugging it off. Python MUST attract some of the most promising novice programmers, and I belive that was part of its original design. As a consequence Python MUST settle on a strong web framework that includes the best of the existing frameworks, and polish it for maximum accessibility as well as power. Further, there MUST be a very good, accessible book on the subject, and soon. Just on the basis of momentum rather than any strong technical argument (which I am not qualified to make either way) I think we ought to settle on Django and do what we can to improve it and its documentation. Adrian, is there a Django book in the works that would compete with the Rails book? mt From chipy at holovaty.com Tue Dec 20 23:21:25 2005 From: chipy at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:21:25 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django and Rails and PHP (oh my!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512201621.26159.chipy@holovaty.com> You wrote: > Adrian, is there a Django book in the works that would compete with > the Rails book? I can't comment officially, because no contracts have been signed yet, but a few publishers have made offers, and it's safe to say there will be at least one book in the coming months. Should be fun! Adrian From ehs at pobox.com Wed Dec 21 00:06:52 2005 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:06:52 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django and Rails and PHP (oh my!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/20/05, Michael Tobis wrote: > As a consequence Python MUST settle on a strong web framework that > includes the best of the existing frameworks, and polish it for > maximum accessibility as well as power. I think that the 'problem' of too many frameworks is actually only a problem because of the python mantra: "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." It's as if the python community is being hoisted on its own petard ... or is being gutted by an out of control inversion-of-perl pattern. Perhaps it's time to not take this matra so seriously? Perhaps I'm the only way taking it seriously... I think there are lots of web frameworks for python, as there are in other languages, because of the age of the respective language and the age of the web. I like having choices and a rich user community. I don't like being cajolled by the blogosphere into using one particular tool. > Further, there MUST be a very good, accessible book on the subject, > and soon. Books are good. The Rails book is great--not just for learning about Rails and Ruby but for learning about how to do agile web development. I'd argue that the latter is more important to learn than the former. Most importantly, the more web frameworks there are the more meeting presentations we can have! //Ed From varmaa at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 01:09:30 2005 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:09:30 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django and Rails and PHP (oh my!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <361b27370512201609i14a1ef47ve5dc1947d52b8bd2@mail.gmail.com> On 12/20/05, Ed Summers wrote: > "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." > > It's as if the python community is being hoisted on its own petard ... > or is being gutted by an out of control inversion-of-perl pattern. > Perhaps it's time to not take this matra so seriously? Perhaps I'm the > only way taking it seriously... > > I think there are lots of web frameworks for python, as there are in > other languages, because of the age of the respective language and the > age of the web. I like having choices and a rich user community. I > don't like being cajolled by the blogosphere into using one particular > tool. The mantra you mentioned is actually the reason that I prefer Python over Ruby when it comes to syntax and other language elements. In fact, I'm not really sure if it's part of the Python "philosophy" to apply that mantra to things other than syntax: just look at all the different modules and formats the standard Python library alone provides for manipulating dates and times--I get a headache every time I have to deal with it. I also agree that it can be nice to have choices when it comes to frameworks, but my problem with the Python ones I've seen--with the possible exception of Django, which I haven't yet looked very closely at--is that they're all severely lacking in some way; either their architecture is too constricting or inconsistent or confusing, their documentation is scant or out-of-date, or all of the above. While the Ruby folks are great at marketing and Rails has an ever-increasing mindshare, I think what makes it truly appealing is simply the fact that it feels extremely well put-together. The product has a clear vision and philosophy, its architecture reflects that, and most of all, it's extremely well-documented. Simply by looking at the website, one gets the feeling that they won't use it only to find out 5 days later that some of its documentation is sorely out-of-date, or that some fundamental task they need to accomplish just wasn't conceived of by the creators and the coding solution will look like a horribly ugly hack. In other words, all the Python-based web frameworks I've used--the main ones being CherryPy and Zope--both look and feel like hack jobs from the start, and their documentation reflects this, if not their architecture as well. Ruby on Rails, on the other hand, looks like it could be a commercial product, and everything about it that I've seen--not just its marketing, but everything else too--reflects such professionalism. So, that said, if Python had 20 different web frameworks that were just as solid as Rails in all the respects I mentioned above, each framework would be an asset to the language. But so far the only framework I've seen that comes anywhere close to Rails' level of excellence is Django, based on some of the documentation I've read. So, in a nutshell, I guess my 2 cents is that I don't really care how popular the web framework I use is: I just want it to be extremely well-documented, cause little confusion in my head, and I want it to allow me to write code that's both concise and readable. It's clear that Rails was designed from the ground up with all that in mind, but that isn't the case with most of the Python web frameworks I've seen. - Atul From bray at sent.com Wed Dec 21 02:11:22 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:11:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django and Rails and PHP (oh my!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <398F115D-706D-48BD-BB06-B1AEA0107801@sent.com> On Dec 20, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Michael Tobis wrote: > Clearly the Ruby/Rails folks are making an effort to place themselves > as an easy-to-learn first language for people who might otherwise > drift into the rather awkward template-first way of thinking that is > PHP. What does making a website and learning to program have to do with eachother? Where did learning to think like programmer even have anything to do with building a website? If you think like a programmer, I am sure you can build a website. Although, if your out just to build a website, Ruby-on-Rails is perfect for you. The web is made up of thousands of micro-programs and has made all the ideas of programming more visible. Open source lives and breath off internet technology, as well. The concepts needed to become a quality programmer are often learned by the individual who takes the time to do practice, research, listen to lectures, read eachother's code, and read books--not with the sole goal to fill the internet with useless clamor. Once a student has accomplished learning to program the right way, they then can go on and be collaborative, write some open source, ask questions, build some programs, and if they so desire, build websites. -- Brian From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 04:30:46 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:30:46 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django and Rails and PHP (oh my!) In-Reply-To: <398F115D-706D-48BD-BB06-B1AEA0107801@sent.com> References: <398F115D-706D-48BD-BB06-B1AEA0107801@sent.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0512201930v1822122na8f767a182fba6a2@mail.gmail.com> On 12/20/05, Brian Ray wrote: > What does making a website and learning to program have to do with > eachother? Where did learning to think like programmer even have > anything to do with building a website? The conversation was something like, "kids will only learn to program if they can see results quickly." The web is the gateway drug to a lifetime of hardcore python addiction. At the time (maybe a year ago?) PHP seemed to be the teen programming drug of choice. Nowadays, it's moving towards Rails. I think I sort of agree with Brian though, as much as I want to advocate Python, I'm not sure how to do that other than doing my to keep chipy moving forward, being prepared for opportunities to tell interested folks about the language, and making cool things with the language of my choice. Thaaaat said, as a working developer, I also don't want to keep my head in a bag of fun Pythons. I want to learn new stuff, and keep the bag where it belongs (in my awesome toolbelt.) As long as we're all prepared to be act when we're in the right place at the right time, we'll be a-ok. Chris From mtobis at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 07:33:58 2005 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:33:58 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django and Rails and PHP (oh my!) In-Reply-To: <398F115D-706D-48BD-BB06-B1AEA0107801@sent.com> References: <398F115D-706D-48BD-BB06-B1AEA0107801@sent.com> Message-ID: On 12/20/05, Brian Ray wrote: > What does making a website and learning to program have to do with > eachother? Where did learning to think like programmer even have > anything to do with building a website? Nice question. My answer is that it's the other way around. Building a website has something to do with becoming a programmer. >... Once a student has accomplished learning to > program the right way, they then can go on ... Ah but this is the issue. Edsger Dijkstra once said something to the effect that he thought the teaching of BASIC was a criminal act, as it caused minds to form around the wrong concepts. Whether or not BASIC has improved since then, I think PHP is the BASIC of our time. The template is just not a promising organizing principle for interesting ideas. Consider the namespace instead. Building a website that DOES something is probably the first motivator for most beginning programmers these days. PHP achieves this with little fuss, but only by introducing a wrongheaded concept at its core - an attachment to a way of working that entangles the concerns of presentation and process. Ruby is offering an alternative, but Python isn't. There are people with amazing talents in the Python world, and there are lots of frameworks at least as good as Rails, but none of them are accessible in practice to the beginner, because the teaching materials are absent. If we get people into Python, the entire community including all the other web frameworks will benefit. If we don't learn from the Ruby folks and promote ourselves effectively, the community risks eventual decline. Given all that has been achieved, and all that Python has to offer, that would be a shame. Right now I want to see a small, interesting Django/Python book that takes advantage of Django's buzz, and satisfies a bright thirteen year old with zero programming experience (except for fifty lines of PHP most likely) without offending the spirit of Dijkstra, and I want it yesterday. If that's too much to ask I'll write the thing, but alas it won't be ready yesterday. mt From maney at two14.net Wed Dec 21 08:06:39 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:06:39 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django and Rails and PHP (oh my!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051221070639.GA7419@furrr.two14.net> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 05:06:52PM -0600, Ed Summers wrote: > I think that the 'problem' of too many frameworks is actually only a > problem because of the python mantra: > > "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." > > It's as if the python community is being hoisted on its own petard ... > or is being gutted by an out of control inversion-of-perl pattern. > Perhaps it's time to not take this matra so seriously? Perhaps I'm the > only way taking it seriously... I agree, sort of. It's only a problem when you try to extend the "one obvious way" thing from its legitimate domain (language features) and extend it to something as naturally diverse as web frameworks. (I'll admit there's an uneasy middle ground, and the standard library probably should strive to hew more closely to the "one way" principle, but for anything non-trivial enough that it's not a monolythic whole, there will naturally be multiple ways to get at the functionality, even if the lower level methods aren't intended for use outside the implementation. Balance is the way...) > Most importantly, the more web frameworks there are the more meeting > presentations we can have! And, I keep hoping, the better the odds that one will come along that doesn't assume that it's the king, and the data schema (both design and implementaion) is subservient to its current refactoring. I don't hope too hard, though, because frameworks seem to be more popular the less flexible they are outside of the scope of the style of app they most target (and that always means web, web, web). -- During much of that epoch [the thirties and early forties], I gained my livelihood writing for the silver screen, an occupation which, like herding swine, makes the vocabulary pungent but contributes little to one's prose style. -- S J Perelman From varmaa at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 15:12:50 2005 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:12:50 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django and Rails and PHP (oh my!) In-Reply-To: References: <398F115D-706D-48BD-BB06-B1AEA0107801@sent.com> Message-ID: <361b27370512210612x690d9113y2dbdb8e856b2cd00@mail.gmail.com> On 12/21/05, Michael Tobis wrote: > Ah but this is the issue. Edsger Dijkstra once said something to the > effect that he thought the teaching of BASIC was a criminal act, as it > caused minds to form around the wrong concepts. Whether or not BASIC > has improved since then, I think PHP is the BASIC of our time. The > template is just not a promising organizing principle for interesting > ideas. Consider the namespace instead. > > Building a website that DOES something is probably the first motivator > for most beginning programmers these days. PHP achieves this with > little fuss, but only by introducing a wrongheaded concept at its core > - an attachment to a way of working that entangles the concerns of > presentation and process. > > Ruby is offering an alternative, but Python isn't. There are people > with amazing talents in the Python world, and there are lots of > frameworks at least as good as Rails, but none of them are accessible > in practice to the beginner, because the teaching materials are > absent. This sort of begs the question of whether it's really *that* bad to learn Ruby instead of Python. I haven't done much Ruby programming, but after reading the Pickaxe book a few years ago, it seemed so similar to Python that I wasn't really that motivated to play around with it. As Michael said, what's really important is that a first programming language should teach the right concepts. I agree that PHP is really bad for this, as are a number of other languages, like Perl. But not only do both Ruby and Python strike me as reasonably humane languages that encourage good programming habits, Ruby on Rails is a framework that actively encourages good architecture and methodology habits. So I kind of question whether the idea of "cloning" Rails in Python is even that useful: it's not like Ruby on Rails is this horrible thing that's teaching people how to program badly. It's doing just the opposite. So I guess my question is just whether it's really that important that everyone do web programming in Python instead of Ruby. As long as they're using either of those instead of PHP or Perl, it seems to me like the programming world is heading in the right direction. > Right now I want to see a small, interesting Django/Python book that > takes advantage of Django's buzz, and satisfies a bright thirteen year > old with zero programming experience (except for fifty lines of PHP > most likely) without offending the spirit of Dijkstra, and I want it > yesterday. On a side note, I was always under the impression that kids wanted to learn programming so they could make video games. :) At least that was how things were when I was a kid, and as far as that goes, I think Python+Pygame can be a great way to introduce someone to coding. - Atul From mtobis at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 16:29:32 2005 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:29:32 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django and Rails and PHP (oh my!) In-Reply-To: <361b27370512210612x690d9113y2dbdb8e856b2cd00@mail.gmail.com> References: <398F115D-706D-48BD-BB06-B1AEA0107801@sent.com> <361b27370512210612x690d9113y2dbdb8e856b2cd00@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > This sort of begs the question of whether it's really *that* bad to > learn Ruby instead of Python. It's not that important for the world, but I think it's important for Python; both to attract as many new programmers as does Ruby and to learn from the Ruby community the things they do so well, which are mostly about outreach rather than about core functionality. > So > I kind of question whether the idea of "cloning" Rails in Python is > even that useful: it's not like Ruby on Rails is this horrible thing > that's teaching people how to program badly. It's doing just the > opposite. Agreed. I don't suggest we clone the Rails book either. I think it would be good to start from first principles and a popular framework, and I think it would be good if we attended more to newbies. ... >I think > Python+Pygame can be a great way to introduce someone to coding. There is a book that takes that approach: "Python Programming for the Complete Beginner" or something like that. It's not in my collection of Python beginner books yet. At first glance it's less introspective than the approach I would take (at this point maybe I should say, than I intend to take) but I think it probably served some people very well. Happy Holidays all! mt From ehs at pobox.com Thu Dec 22 15:08:23 2005 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:08:23 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] guido @ google Message-ID: Well, it's not a book -- but surely this bodes well for the python community: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/8821 From bray at sent.com Thu Dec 22 17:05:51 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:05:51 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] guido @ google In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> On Dec 22, 2005, at 8:08 AM, Ed Summers wrote: > Well, it's not a book -- but surely this bodes well for the python > community: > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/8821 I would be interested to hear how Google uses Python. And what use they will have for the writer of Python. There have been many job offerings from Google asking for people with Python experience. Here in the office, we are having a heated language flame war debate concerning web programming--keep in mind most of is are C hackers and really none of us are web experts. My argument was that the web is just like any other program and does not require some statically linked ball of twine--like PHP. PHP is fast because it is one big static library. You can get as much performance with a language which scales well and allows clustering, like Python. Also their seems to be more thought focused on program design and less on. "how do I write this next line of code?". I think I mentioned the grasshopper versus team of ants analogy. I then mentioned that Google may be using Python in this way. The result was the others thought I was wrong in that Google must not be using Python because thought Python was not fast enough. On speed, the is the Python philosophy still write everything in Python then rewrite anything not quick enough in "C". I wonder if Guido will be writing "C" for Python at Google. One thing that intrigues me about Google is their concentration on making data available quickly, cleanly and concisely. Much of this idea is part of they Python experience. Then when I take a look at other great web technology build with Python, especially those I can take apart because I have the source code, like for example just about any Django application, I see that this technology too also uses some of the well founded theories derived from Python. With plain C/C++, I immediately know who wrote what piece of code before looking at blame or cvs logs. Their own techniques are signatures and bad practices are on everything they write. With Python, I can not always do the same thing--which is a good thing if your working in a large group. Maybe, the restrictiveness causes people to write code which matches each others. I only then can tell who wrote which piece of Python code when I take a step back and start looking at class diagrams and looking at architecture decisions. Still, Guido at Google cool. Thanks Ed! -- Brian Ray http://brianray.chipy.org From mtobis at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 19:01:19 2005 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:01:19 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] guido @ google In-Reply-To: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> References: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> Message-ID: Google uses Python for the things Python is good for. I would guess they use C for the heavy lifting. I have at least once received a web form from Google with a ".py" extension though. I would guess that the per-client work is often done in Python and the heavy-lifting server processes are in something else, mostly C or C++ most likely. Python optimizes developer time, C optimizes processor time. Python wrappers around C form a fair compromise. My guess is that Python is a big part of Google's eating Microsoft's lunch; Microsoft can't escape their ridiculous code base. I will believe that Guido is at Google when he says so or they say so, not when some blog says so; but I hope it's true. Also I hope Google steps up to the plate and does more to support the PSF. mt On 12/22/05, Brian Ray wrote: > > > On Dec 22, 2005, at 8:08 AM, Ed Summers wrote: > > > Well, it's not a book -- but surely this bodes well for the python > > community: > > > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/8821 > > > I would be interested to hear how Google uses Python. And what use > they will have for the writer of Python. There have been many job > offerings from Google asking for people with Python experience. > > Here in the office, we are having a heated language flame war debate > concerning web programming--keep in mind most of is are C hackers and > really none of us are web experts. My argument was that the web is > just like any other program and does not require some statically > linked ball of twine--like PHP. PHP is fast because it is one big > static library. You can get as much performance with a language which > scales well and allows clustering, like Python. Also their seems to > be more thought focused on program design and less on. "how do I > write this next line of code?". I think I mentioned the grasshopper > versus team of ants analogy. I then mentioned that Google may be > using Python in this way. The result was the others thought I was > wrong in that Google must not be using Python because thought Python > was not fast enough. > > On speed, the is the Python philosophy still write everything in > Python then rewrite anything not quick enough in "C". I wonder if > Guido will be writing "C" for Python at Google. > > One thing that intrigues me about Google is their concentration on > making data available quickly, cleanly and concisely. Much of this > idea is part of they Python experience. Then when I take a look at > other great web technology build with Python, especially those I can > take apart because I have the source code, like for example just > about any Django application, I see that this technology too also > uses some of the well founded theories derived from Python. > > With plain C/C++, I immediately know who wrote what piece of code > before looking at blame or cvs logs. Their own techniques are > signatures and bad practices are on everything they write. With > Python, I can not always do the same thing--which is a good thing if > your working in a large group. Maybe, the restrictiveness causes > people to write code which matches each others. I only then can tell > who wrote which piece of Python code when I take a step back and > start looking at class diagrams and looking at architecture decisions. > > Still, Guido at Google cool. Thanks Ed! > > -- Brian Ray > http://brianray.chipy.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From ehs at pobox.com Thu Dec 22 19:31:01 2005 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:31:01 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] guido @ google In-Reply-To: References: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, Michael Tobis wrote: > I will believe that Guido is at Google when he says so or they say so, > not when some blog says so; but I hope it's true. What if you read it on a google' blog or guido's blog? Does that still count? Not that they have... //Ed From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Dec 22 19:34:53 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:34:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] guido @ google In-Reply-To: References: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> Message-ID: <43AAF1CD.1000508@colorstudy.com> Michael Tobis wrote: > Google uses Python for the things Python is good for. I would guess > they use C for the heavy lifting. I have at least once received a web > form from Google with a ".py" extension though. > > I would guess that the per-client work is often done in Python and the > heavy-lifting server processes are in something else, mostly C or C++ > most likely. They use C++ and Python with SWIG, and Java for some of the backend accounting stuff. As far as I've heard, they don't use much of anything else. Well, Javascript and XSLT and other stuff like that, but that doesn't count, right? I've heard they are starting to use MySQL, but only somewhat experimentally. The use of C++ seems to be primarily for speed, and they frequently port Python code to C++ and create SWIG wrappings, so the two languages are more complimentary than competitors. -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From maney at two14.net Fri Dec 23 02:42:24 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:42:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] guido @ google In-Reply-To: <43AAF1CD.1000508@colorstudy.com> References: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> <43AAF1CD.1000508@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <20051223014224.GB884@furrr.two14.net> On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 12:34:53PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: > only somewhat experimentally. The use of C++ seems to be primarily for > speed, and they frequently port Python code to C++ and create SWIG > wrappings, so the two languages are more complimentary than competitors. Sounds like the old bromide: first make it right, then make it fast. Not that we'd expect less of Google's brain trust, eh? :-) -- GUIs are just what some developer thinks you'll be needing -- PJ From maney at two14.net Fri Dec 23 05:55:05 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:55:05 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Eckel on Java hyper-enthusiasts, Ruby, and Python Message-ID: <20051223045505.GA1809@furrr.two14.net> Summary The Java hyper-enthusiasts have left the building, leaving a significant contingent of Java programmers behind, blinking in the bright lights without the constant drumbeat of boosterism. Which is catchy enough, but although the alleged departure provides his jumping-off point, and Java is a recurring motif in the essay, I think he's really writing about Ruby (and, of course, Rails) and Python... oh, and Java, too. For example, upon discovering metaclass programming, a number of Ruby hyper-enthusiasts (I don't have Tate's book with me, so I don't remember if he was one), have declared that Python is incapable of metaclass programming, which is untrue. That's more like it. The expression of coroutines in Ruby (at least, according to Tate's example) is awkward, but they are there, and I suspect that this may be why coroutines -- albeit in a much more elegant form -- are appearing in Python 2.5. Python's coroutines also allow straightforward continuations, and so we may see continuation servers implemented using Python 2.5. Okay, that should provide fodder for several ChiPy meetings' worth of talks. When is that coming out? http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=141312 -- ActiveX is popular with writers of viruses, trojans, worms and malicious scripts of all kinds. From ph at malaprop.org Fri Dec 23 17:46:08 2005 From: ph at malaprop.org (Peter Harkins) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:46:08 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] guido @ google In-Reply-To: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> References: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> Message-ID: <20051223164608.GQ18749@malaprop.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 10:05:51AM -0600, Brian Ray wrote: > On speed, the is the Python philosophy still write everything in > Python then rewrite anything not quick enough in "C". I wonder if > Guido will be writing "C" for Python at Google. Were I an employer, I would prefer to hire web programmer to write in Python. Writing in Python is simply several times faster than writing in C. If Python is too slow*, I'd just take the money I don't spend hiring several C developers and cluster a couple dozen boxes. I just read a great article on language tradeoffs: http://opal.cabochon.com/~stevey/blog-rants/duck-season.html Really, every one of his "Drunken Blog Rants" is highly recommended reading, it's thoughtful stuff: http://opal.cabochon.com/~stevey/blog-rants/ * Trying to determine if a solution is too slow before it meets real-world use is like trying to give your unborn child a performance review for their first job. "Too slow" is almost always idiot-speak for "not macho enough". - -- Peter Harkins - ph at malaprop.org - http://malaprop.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: If you don't know what this is, it's OK to ignore it. iD8DBQFDrCnPa6PWv6+ALKoRAvNfAJ0cmUPZ6JtsBu3Fy5WDV9OsSum7rgCfXq/Z XJKcK4g8m1RCveVYfrQbWxs= =hNhk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From deadwisdom at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 19:01:56 2005 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brant Harris) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:01:56 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] guido @ google In-Reply-To: <20051223164608.GQ18749@malaprop.org> References: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> <20051223164608.GQ18749@malaprop.org> Message-ID: <694c06d60512231001h3cbfc330la99d35fec4e8563b@mail.gmail.com> On 12/23/05, Peter Harkins wrote: > I just read a great article on language tradeoffs: > http://opal.cabochon.com/~stevey/blog-rants/duck-season.html It was an interesting article that holds a perspective that I'd like to see more often. Too bad he has no idea what's going on with Python. From pfein at pobox.com Sat Dec 24 00:35:55 2005 From: pfein at pobox.com (Peter Fein) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:35:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Optimiztion, was Re: guido @ google In-Reply-To: <20051223164608.GQ18749@malaprop.org> References: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> <20051223164608.GQ18749@malaprop.org> Message-ID: <43AC89DB.9020202@pobox.com> Peter Harkins wrote: > Were I an employer, I would prefer to hire web programmer to write in > Python. Writing in Python is simply several times faster than writing in > C. If Python is too slow*, I'd just take the money I don't spend hiring > several C developers and cluster a couple dozen boxes. This is basically the strategy taken by my company. A few comments: 1. Optimizing python code is a lot easier than I expected. I was able to achieve around a 10x speed up to a critical code block in around a day's worth of work. This was mostly pure-python modifications - replacing lists with tuples (16% faster for slicing!), and removing some redundant calculations, but not changing the core algorithm. Knowing something about intepreter internals (even though I've never written a line of CPython) helps - for example, generator comprehensions are *much* faster than lambda + imap. When your done with the obvious things, run it through hotshot. 2. Building a cluster can be a lot more complicated than just buying more boxes, though it depends on your app. And don't forget the costs beyond initial purchase - administration and rack space are not free. That said, you can scale your investment much more gradually - programmers come in units of tens of thousands of dollars, while hardware comes in units of hundreds of dollars. 3. Asking your boss to cut you a check for every machine you don't need to buy b/c you've optimized your code is unlikely to yield satisfactory results. ;) From maney at two14.net Sat Dec 24 05:07:37 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:07:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Metaclass hacking? Message-ID: <20051224040737.GA9779@furrr.two14.net> I was wandering around and came across a link to this old essay of Raymond's about the joy of using Python. What struck me this time around was his description of some code as an example of metaclass hacking. To me, today, it looks like, well, mostly it looks like a misplaced __init__(self, **dictfrom) method, but that might make the other ways he needs to use the class awkward. Anyway, I was just wondering - is this sort of simple introspective attribute-twiddling really something that would be called a metaclass hack? I thought those were all guaranteed to melt your brain. Oops, almost forgot the article's link: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3882 -- You arguably have quite a few inalienable rights, but being taken seriously isn't one of them. Neither is being respected. -- Rick Moen From skip at pobox.com Sat Dec 24 03:31:17 2005 From: skip at pobox.com (skip@pobox.com) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:31:17 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] who's faster than who? In-Reply-To: <43AC89DB.9020202@pobox.com> References: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> <20051223164608.GQ18749@malaprop.org> <43AC89DB.9020202@pobox.com> Message-ID: <17324.45813.987206.205553@montanaro.dyndns.org> Peter> ... replacing lists with tuples (16% faster for slicing!) ... This difference exists in 2.3, but not in 2.4 or CVS (2.5a0). Peter> ... generator comprehensions are *much* faster than lambda + imap Hmmm... Your tuple/list statement suggests you are using 2.3, but generator expressions aren't available until 2.4, even after importing all_feature_names from __future__. For the simpleminded test I tried, generator expressions were no faster than list comprehensions: % python2.4 ~/local/bin/timeit.py 'for x in ((y*y) for y in xrange(10000)): x' 100 loops, best of 3: 1.32e+04 usec per loop % python2.4 ~/local/bin/timeit.py 'for x in [(y*y) for y in xrange(10000)]: x' 100 loops, best of 3: 1.31e+04 usec per loop In general, I would suggest that the appropriate data structure be chosen (e.g, list vs tuple, set vs dict) unless absolutely necessary. Peter> 3. Asking your boss to cut you a check for every machine you Peter> don't need to buy b/c you've optimized your code is unlikely to Peter> yield satisfactory results. ;) I work in a trading firm. Computers are fixed costs, while the profit they generate is ongoing and directly related to the number and speed of the computers. It's rarely difficult to decide to buy more hardware or upgrade old boxes. Skip From skip at pobox.com Sat Dec 24 05:34:04 2005 From: skip at pobox.com (skip@pobox.com) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:34:04 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] who's faster than who? In-Reply-To: <17324.45813.987206.205553@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <13C7844E-506A-4763-B9BB-223C5D3B7E86@sent.com> <20051223164608.GQ18749@malaprop.org> <43AC89DB.9020202@pobox.com> <17324.45813.987206.205553@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <17324.53180.383672.533081@montanaro.dyndns.org> skip> ... even after importing all_feature_names from __future__.... Which was completely bogus. My apologies for that. I tried from __future__ import all_feature_names in the -s arg of a timeit command. It didn't burp, so I assumed it had succeeded. In any case, generator expressions were new with 2.4. Skip From mtobis at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 19:24:48 2005 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:24:48 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? Message-ID: While it's often said that "you can write Fortran in any language", not every language allows you to write Perl. Nevertheless, there is a contest running this week to do exactly that in Python, i.e., minimize your character count while doing something reasonably useful. http://www.pycontest.net/ My best to date is 221 characters, but folks on c.l.p. (see "python coding contest" thread) are claiming non-cheats of under 140 characters. I may take another stab at it; my 221 character code is alarmingly sane and readable. I had a much more baroque and Perlishly flavored version but it turned out to be 20 characters longer... I wonder if the winning entry won't be something like import os;return os.system('perl -e "$_($u(!%$f!-)etc.etc."') Maybe the judges will not accept that though... mt From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Dec 27 21:45:13 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:45:13 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/27/05, Michael Tobis wrote: > While it's often said that "you can write Fortran in any language", > not every language allows you to write Perl. Nevertheless, there is a > contest running this week to do exactly that in Python, i.e., minimize > your character count while doing something reasonably useful. > > http://www.pycontest.net/ > > My best to date is 221 characters, but folks on c.l.p. (see "python > coding contest" thread) are claiming non-cheats of under 140 > characters. I may take another stab at it; my 221 character code is > alarmingly sane and readable. I had a much more baroque and Perlishly > flavored version but it turned out to be 20 characters longer... An interesting contest. My first simple try came in at 220 characters, but after trying a bunch of different techniques (most of which increased the size) I was only able to get it down to 214 characters (which is just minor refinements to my first version). Using the built-in zlib compression (s.encode('zlib')) I can get that in turn down to 175 characters (actually making use of that compression is an excersize left to the reader). 140 characters is pretty tricky; I'm guessing there's some useful pattern in the data for the numbers that could be used. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | blog.ianbicking.org From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Dec 27 23:06:25 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:06:25 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/27/05, Ian Bicking wrote: > An interesting contest. My first simple try came in at 220 > characters, but after trying a bunch of different techniques (most of > which increased the size) I was only able to get it down to 214 > characters (which is just minor refinements to my first version). > Using the built-in zlib compression (s.encode('zlib')) I can get that > in turn down to 175 characters (actually making use of that > compression is an excersize left to the reader). 140 characters is > pretty tricky; I'm guessing there's some useful pattern in the data > for the numbers that could be used. Well, I figured out how to get it down to 173 characters, but when compressing it comes out as 174 characters. Damn, I guess I'm just *barely* better at compression than zlib is. Hmm... after using map and lambda I can get it down to 155, 153 compressed (two characters of compression, w00t!). I'm totally stumped on the last 15 characters, though. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | blog.ianbicking.org From deadwisdom at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 23:43:05 2005 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brant Harris) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:43:05 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> I'm at 211, not messin' with the zlib stuff. How are you doing the zlib stuff? I can't seem to embed any of that in the code itself. Man, what a waste of time. On 12/27/05, Ian Bicking wrote: > On 12/27/05, Ian Bicking wrote: > > An interesting contest. My first simple try came in at 220 > > characters, but after trying a bunch of different techniques (most of > > which increased the size) I was only able to get it down to 214 > > characters (which is just minor refinements to my first version). > > Using the built-in zlib compression (s.encode('zlib')) I can get that > > in turn down to 175 characters (actually making use of that > > compression is an excersize left to the reader). 140 characters is > > pretty tricky; I'm guessing there's some useful pattern in the data > > for the numbers that could be used. > > Well, I figured out how to get it down to 173 characters, but when > compressing it comes out as 174 characters. Damn, I guess I'm just > *barely* better at compression than zlib is. Hmm... after using map > and lambda I can get it down to 155, 153 compressed (two characters of > compression, w00t!). I'm totally stumped on the last 15 characters, > though. > > -- > Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | blog.ianbicking.org > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Dec 27 23:50:23 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:50:23 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> References: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/27/05, Brant Harris wrote: > I'm at 211, not messin' with the zlib stuff. How are you doing the > zlib stuff? I can't seem to embed any of that in the code itself. You can exec the string once you decode it. You also have to figure out how to put the compressed form of the string into the source efficiently, but I will say no more! > Man, what a waste of time. Indeed ;) -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | blog.ianbicking.org From deadwisdom at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 00:21:57 2005 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brant Harris) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:21:57 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: References: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <694c06d60512271521k4de2309of7f2dad2fb560989@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/05, Ian Bicking wrote: > You can exec the string once you decode it. You also have to figure > out how to put the compressed form of the string into the source > efficiently, but I will say no more! But that's what I was asking about... *grumble* Adding compression only seems to extend my code. *shrug* From maney at two14.net Wed Dec 28 05:14:50 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:14:50 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051228041450.GA28033@furrr.two14.net> On Tue, Dec 27, 2005 at 05:06:25PM -0500, Ian Bicking wrote: > *barely* better at compression than zlib is. Hmm... after using map > and lambda I can get it down to 155, 153 compressed (two characters of > compression, w00t!). I'm totally stumped on the last 15 characters, > though. No map, no lambda, 154 uncompressed. Hmmm, I suppose I could save two or three bytes if I use a raw string literal there and embed the actual control code... -- This is not the first time databases and file systems have collided, merged, argued, and split up, and it won't be the last. The specifics of whether you have a file system or a database is a rather dull semantic dispute -- Rob Pike From esm at logic.net Wed Dec 28 06:46:10 2005 From: esm at logic.net (Edward S. Marshall) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 23:46:10 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1135748770.27595.13.camel@performics.wireless> On Tue, 2005-12-27 at 12:24 -0600, Michael Tobis wrote: > My best to date is 221 characters, but folks on c.l.p. (see "python > coding contest" thread) are claiming non-cheats of under 140 > characters. Bah, I'm obviously not a very good Perl programmer, then. 233 characters is all I could make myself get it down to tonight, without my head exploding, without resorting to map/lambda, and without representing the template as a set of numbers. It's still pretty readable; maybe I'll take a peek at it tomorrow. Good "practice", though. (Or bad, if you consider the goal... :-) (http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Practices/Kata/) -- Edward S. Marshall http://esm.logic.net/ Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. From maney at two14.net Wed Dec 28 08:03:00 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 01:03:00 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <1135748770.27595.13.camel@performics.wireless> References: <1135748770.27595.13.camel@performics.wireless> Message-ID: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> On Tue, Dec 27, 2005 at 11:46:10PM -0600, Edward S. Marshall wrote: > Bah, I'm obviously not a very good Perl programmer, then. 233 characters > is all I could make myself get it down to tonight, without my head > exploding, without resorting to map/lambda, and without representing the > template as a set of numbers. It's still pretty readable; maybe I'll > take a peek at it tomorrow. Came back to make sure I had an offering ready to go (the web site opens at 8:00 tomorrow morning). Found I'd forgotten one or two ugly little tweaks (some things make it just too hard to work on the code, so I was putting them off) and found a spare byte somewhere. 138 bytes, one line. no maps or lambdas at all - had some once, list comprehensions saved bytes! I have an idea for a different way of encoding the table(s) that might be a little shorter overall. Or not. Maybe I'll try it tomorrow, or maybe I'll do something worthwhile instead. > Good "practice", though. (Or bad, if you consider the goal... :-) It was interesting - stretched me in a coding direction I haven't much needed (or missed) in years. There's value in that, even if the specific direction is one that is normally best avoided. It's like the old saw about how you know when you've really mastered a tool: you know three interesting ways to misues it. Tonight I have practiced more ways of misuing Python than I knew existed! yawwwwwwwning'ly yours... -- Then I can figure out what the information-support needs are and build a prototype for people to respond to. This works, because people generally don't know what they need, but they can tell you with certainty when you get it wrong. -- Paul Murphy From robk at tallchicago.org Wed Dec 28 01:50:59 2005 From: robk at tallchicago.org (Robert Kapteyn) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:50:59 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <694c06d60512271521k4de2309of7f2dad2fb560989@mail.gmail.com> References: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> <694c06d60512271521k4de2309of7f2dad2fb560989@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <165224C3-C3D6-48A9-94E4-0847F7A7341E@tallchicago.org> At first I was repulsed by this geekish waste of time . . . But I do have an idea . . . The since the contest is judged based on a character count and not a byte count, I would suggest that you could greatly increase your compression efficiency if the output was encoded in 16-bit unicode characters ;-) Would that be cheating ? -Rob On Dec 27, 2005, at 5:21 PM, Brant Harris wrote: > On 12/27/05, Ian Bicking wrote: >> You can exec the string once you decode it. You also have to figure >> out how to put the compressed form of the string into the source >> efficiently, but I will say no more! > > But that's what I was asking about... *grumble* > Adding compression only seems to extend my code. *shrug* > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From deadwisdom at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 17:18:03 2005 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brant Harris) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:18:03 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <165224C3-C3D6-48A9-94E4-0847F7A7341E@tallchicago.org> References: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> <694c06d60512271521k4de2309of7f2dad2fb560989@mail.gmail.com> <165224C3-C3D6-48A9-94E4-0847F7A7341E@tallchicago.org> Message-ID: <694c06d60512280818k6c1d35a1s4e8f9f5937976be4@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/05, Robert Kapteyn wrote: > But I do have an idea . . . > The since the contest is judged based on a character count and not a > byte count, > I would suggest that you could greatly increase your compression > efficiency if the > output was encoded in 16-bit unicode characters ;-) > > Would that be cheating ? Nope, anything seems to go, as long as you don't use a webservice or nothin'. From maney at two14.net Wed Dec 28 17:49:31 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:49:31 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <694c06d60512280818k6c1d35a1s4e8f9f5937976be4@mail.gmail.com> References: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> <694c06d60512271521k4de2309of7f2dad2fb560989@mail.gmail.com> <165224C3-C3D6-48A9-94E4-0847F7A7341E@tallchicago.org> <694c06d60512280818k6c1d35a1s4e8f9f5937976be4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051228164931.GA2809@furrr.two14.net> On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 10:18:03AM -0600, Brant Harris wrote: > On 12/27/05, Robert Kapteyn wrote: > > I would suggest that you could greatly increase your compression > > efficiency if the output was encoded in 16-bit unicode characters > > > > Would that be cheating ? > > Nope, anything seems to go, as long as you don't use a webservice or nothin'. That proves not to be the case, Effendi. The cheats that import the test framework (I think that's what the ones that came in at 3x bytes said they did) have been banished to the "some clever cheat" section, apparently out of the running. So far the smallest working, valid entry is 120 bytes. I got down to 138 bytes of disgusting looking code, and doubt that approach can go any further. -- Then I can figure out what the information-support needs are and build a prototype for people to respond to. This works, because people generally don't know what they need, but they can tell you with certainty when you get it wrong. -- Paul Murphy From ehs at pobox.com Wed Dec 28 18:50:01 2005 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:50:01 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] pycon 2006 earlybird registration Message-ID: I don't remember seeing this announced on here, but apologies if it was already: http://us.pycon.org/TX2006/Registration Just a few days left. //Ed From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Dec 28 19:54:24 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:54:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <165224C3-C3D6-48A9-94E4-0847F7A7341E@tallchicago.org> References: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> <694c06d60512271521k4de2309of7f2dad2fb560989@mail.gmail.com> <165224C3-C3D6-48A9-94E4-0847F7A7341E@tallchicago.org> Message-ID: <43B2DF60.90003@colorstudy.com> Robert Kapteyn wrote: > At first I was repulsed by this geekish waste of time . . . > > But I do have an idea . . . > The since the contest is judged based on a character count and not a > byte count, > I would suggest that you could greatly increase your compression > efficiency if the > output was encoded in 16-bit unicode characters ;-) Intriguing... but does Python accept source encoding that isn't ASCII-equivalent? I didn't think it would. But maybe UTF-32... However, it would be neat if you could do: # -*- coding: UTF-32 -*- exec u'...utf-32 string...'.encode('unicode_internal').decode('zlib') But can you actually get the internal format to match your expectations? Well, probably... And while they *say* they count characters, not bytes, are they telling the truth? If they were counting characters, they'd have to follow PEP 263, instead of just loading the file and counting bytes (which seems a more likely implementation). And are they using a UCS-32 build of Python, or UCS-16? At least I think those are the terms, and the 16-bit version is the default build (and default on most distros), and I think 32 bit Unicode is simply unrepresentable without it...? Also, UTF-32 isn't a built-in encoding (or maybe it's just because of the Python build I'm using). Of course UTF-16 would probably help too. -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From ehs at pobox.com Wed Dec 28 21:24:26 2005 From: ehs at pobox.com (Ed Summers) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:24:26 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] beginners, civ4 & python Message-ID: On the subject of attracting beginning programmers to python it might be interesting to have a chipy presentation on extending the *hot holiday gift* Civilization 4 with python [1,2]. I'm not much of a gamer, and don't know anything about Civ4 ... but I imagine there's someone on the list who does. It would be an opportunity to take a break from web frameworks, and perhaps bring in some new blood from the Chicago gaming community. [1] http://www.2kgames.com/civ4/ [2] http://modiki.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Guide_to_Python_in_CIV From deadwisdom at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 21:30:59 2005 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brant Harris) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:30:59 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] beginners, civ4 & python In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <694c06d60512281230j529aad6cp2a67c742a3132726@mail.gmail.com> Bah, this is exactly the sort of presentation I'd excel at. Unfortunately I have plans to be out of town durring the next presentation. I will, however, be up to doing such a thing in February. On 12/28/05, Ed Summers wrote: > On the subject of attracting beginning programmers to python it might > be interesting to have a chipy presentation on extending the *hot > holiday gift* Civilization 4 with python [1,2]. > > I'm not much of a gamer, and don't know anything about Civ4 ... but I > imagine there's someone on the list who does. It would be an > opportunity to take a break from web frameworks, and perhaps bring in > some new blood from the Chicago gaming community. > > [1] http://www.2kgames.com/civ4/ > [2] http://modiki.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Guide_to_Python_in_CIV > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From maney at two14.net Wed Dec 28 22:12:47 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 15:12:47 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <43B2DF60.90003@colorstudy.com> References: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> <694c06d60512271521k4de2309of7f2dad2fb560989@mail.gmail.com> <165224C3-C3D6-48A9-94E4-0847F7A7341E@tallchicago.org> <43B2DF60.90003@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <20051228211247.GB2809@furrr.two14.net> On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 12:54:24PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: > And while they *say* they count characters, not bytes, are they telling > the truth? Wussisname that's running this has said he's counting characters in the sense of "wc -c", so it's actually physical bytes that are counted. Several people have matched the 120 byte working example; perhaps that will prove to be the limit? -- I look on the events of November and December 2000 in my own country, and I reflect on what a truly science-fictional experience it is to be living under an authentically illegitimate American government, born of force and fraud. -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden (in Starlight 3) From maney at two14.net Wed Dec 28 22:19:52 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 15:19:52 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] beginners, civ4 & python In-Reply-To: <694c06d60512281230j529aad6cp2a67c742a3132726@mail.gmail.com> References: <694c06d60512281230j529aad6cp2a67c742a3132726@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051228211952.GC2809@furrr.two14.net> On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 02:30:59PM -0600, Brant Harris wrote: > Bah, this is exactly the sort of presentation I'd excel at. > Unfortunately I have plans to be out of town durring the next > presentation. I will, however, be up to doing such a thing in > February. That sounds like a perfectly reasonable plan. After all, we'll want to have plenty of time to get the word out to all those aspiring young programmers about it. :-) -- If there is a lesson to be learnt from Adobe's eBook fiasco, it is that litigation is no substitute for well-designed software. -- The Economist From deadwisdom at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 22:22:35 2005 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brant Harris) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 15:22:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <20051228211247.GB2809@furrr.two14.net> References: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> <694c06d60512271521k4de2309of7f2dad2fb560989@mail.gmail.com> <165224C3-C3D6-48A9-94E4-0847F7A7341E@tallchicago.org> <43B2DF60.90003@colorstudy.com> <20051228211247.GB2809@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <694c06d60512281322t18b88b24rb33ecacc2417ec93@mail.gmail.com> Hah, I see "Peter Norvig" got his in at 189 And I've posted mine at 193. Because posting it will mean that I spend no more time on it. On 12/28/05, Martin Maney wrote: > On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 12:54:24PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: > > And while they *say* they count characters, not bytes, are they telling > > the truth? > > Wussisname that's running this has said he's counting characters in the > sense of "wc -c", so it's actually physical bytes that are counted. > > Several people have matched the 120 byte working example; perhaps that > will prove to be the limit? > > -- > I look on the events of November and December 2000 in my own country, > and I reflect on what a truly science-fictional experience it is > to be living under an authentically illegitimate American government, > born of force and fraud. -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden (in Starlight 3) > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From maney at two14.net Wed Dec 28 22:52:40 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 15:52:40 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <694c06d60512281322t18b88b24rb33ecacc2417ec93@mail.gmail.com> References: <694c06d60512271443s6327e315ma8aaf8ef8822181c@mail.gmail.com> <694c06d60512271521k4de2309of7f2dad2fb560989@mail.gmail.com> <165224C3-C3D6-48A9-94E4-0847F7A7341E@tallchicago.org> <43B2DF60.90003@colorstudy.com> <20051228211247.GB2809@furrr.two14.net> <694c06d60512281322t18b88b24rb33ecacc2417ec93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051228215240.GD2809@furrr.two14.net> On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 03:22:35PM -0600, Brant Harris wrote: > And I've posted mine at 193. Because posting it will mean that I > spend no more time on it. That's worked for me, at least well enough so far. I do have some notion of a possibly more compact design, but it would be a complete rewrite, so there's a good amount of friction. May not happen. :-) -- That is the real business of communication - finding out stuff. And it certainly can happen in reading too, but there is this difference: in communication that's all that happens; in reading it is the barest beginning. -- Richard Mitchell From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Dec 28 23:44:43 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:44:43 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> References: <1135748770.27595.13.camel@performics.wireless> <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> Martin Maney wrote: > On Tue, Dec 27, 2005 at 11:46:10PM -0600, Edward S. Marshall wrote: > >>Bah, I'm obviously not a very good Perl programmer, then. 233 characters >>is all I could make myself get it down to tonight, without my head >>exploding, without resorting to map/lambda, and without representing the >>template as a set of numbers. It's still pretty readable; maybe I'll >>take a peek at it tomorrow. > > > Came back to make sure I had an offering ready to go (the web site > opens at 8:00 tomorrow morning). Found I'd forgotten one or two ugly > little tweaks (some things make it just too hard to work on the code, > so I was putting them off) and found a spare byte somewhere. 138 > bytes, one line. no maps or lambdas at all - had some once, list > comprehensions saved bytes! I have an idea for a different way of > encoding the table(s) that might be a little shorter overall. Or not. > Maybe I'll try it tomorrow, or maybe I'll do something worthwhile > instead. List comprehension... I knew I was forgetting some entire language feature somewhere. Of course, generator comprehension is just like list comprehensions but without the [], so there might be some characters to be saved there as well. -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From chipy at holovaty.com Wed Dec 28 23:50:24 2005 From: chipy at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:50:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> Ian Bicking wrote: > List comprehension... I knew I was forgetting some entire language > feature somewhere. Maybe this helps somebody: I recently found out the space before the "for" in a list comprehension is not necessary if it's preceded by a close parenthesis. Only tested in Python 2.4.2. For example, this is valid: [str(i)for i in range(3)] Character-saving-ly yours, Adrian From maney at two14.net Thu Dec 29 00:26:53 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:26:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> Message-ID: <20051228232653.GE2809@furrr.two14.net> On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 04:50:24PM -0600, Adrian Holovaty wrote: > Ian Bicking wrote: > > List comprehension... I knew I was forgetting some entire language > > feature somewhere. Generator comprehensions - I thought there might be some "new" language features I hadn't considered. (I've been using 2.4 for some months now (ever since I migrated to Ubuntu), but it was such a gentle transition I haven't yet sat down and reviewed the what's new document. If I stop resisting throwing yet more theoretically useful time at this puzzle, maybe I can get that much good out of it, anyway.) > Maybe this helps somebody: I recently found out the space before the "for" in > a list comprehension is not necessary if it's preceded by a close > parenthesis. Only tested in Python 2.4.2. *Lots* of whitespace can be omitted if you don't care to be able to read the result - I'm sure my 138 byte hack would be at least 10% larger if whitespace that got squeezed out were put back in. I accidentally discovered that the string literal parser leaves unrecognized escape sequences alone, so I didn't need to make one literal a raw string. One byte here, another byte there, rinse, repeat... -- ActiveX is popular with writers of viruses, trojans, worms and malicious scripts of all kinds. From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Dec 29 02:17:11 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 19:17:11 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> Message-ID: <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> Adrian Holovaty wrote: > Ian Bicking wrote: > >>List comprehension... I knew I was forgetting some entire language >>feature somewhere. > > > Maybe this helps somebody: I recently found out the space before the "for" in > a list comprehension is not necessary if it's preceded by a close > parenthesis. Only tested in Python 2.4.2. > > For example, this is valid: > [str(i)for i in range(3)] I also noticed this works for saving another character: [str(i)for i in(0,1,2)] And at least one lambda seems useful, because then you don't need a "return". Now I'm just wondering why Martin has backslashes in his code... -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From mdudzikml at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 02:33:11 2005 From: mdudzikml at gmail.com (Michael Dudzik) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 19:33:11 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <1135819991.22943.250696455@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 19:17:11 -0600, "Ian Bicking" said: > > I also noticed this works for saving another character: > > [str(i)for i in(0,1,2)] While we're saving each other bytes: [str(i)for i in 0,1,2] saves another one. Cheers, Mike Dudzik From maney at two14.net Thu Dec 29 04:50:31 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 21:50:31 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <20051229035031.GF2809@furrr.two14.net> On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 07:17:11PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: > I also noticed this works for saving another character: > > [str(i)for i in(0,1,2)] [str(i)for i in 0,1,2] Tuples don't need parens, sometimes. Hmmm, wonder if I overlooked one of them things... > And at least one lambda seems useful, because then you don't need a > "return". Uhm... oh darn, I'm going to fall back into this tar pit, aren't I? Luckily we watached the Dune DVD already. > Now I'm just wondering why Martin has backslashes in his code... String literal that's actually a lookup table of small integer values. Well, actually it's small integers that are holding three *really* small integers each, but you get the idea. It costs less source bytes to decode it than it saves over writing them as a tuple of decimal integers. It's a classic space-time tradeoff: I spent 'way too much time encoding(1) the values in order to save a handful of bytes! manual'ly compressing'ly yours... (1) counting the time spent figuring out how to do that and get a net savings. -- One discharges fancy homunculi from one's scheme by organizing armies of idiots to do the work. -- Dennett From esm at logic.net Thu Dec 29 05:31:15 2005 From: esm at logic.net (Edward S. Marshall) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:31:15 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <20051229035031.GF2809@furrr.two14.net> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> <20051229035031.GF2809@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <1135830676.28752.13.camel@performics.wireless> On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 21:50 -0600, Martin Maney wrote: > Tuples don't need parens, sometimes. Hmmm, wonder if I overlooked one > of them things... Don't forget that unnecessary newline at the end of the file, if your text editor of choice inserts one. :-) (One by one, the little things add up...) I'm down to 198 bytes in a single line, without doing anything "clever" with my output template yet (ie. it's still one long string, instead of integers like everyone else seems to eventually move to). And if list comprehensions are your thing, it's still fairly readable (although the lack of whitespace and run-together nature is making me cross-eyed at this point). I'm convinced the only significant way I can make this smaller is to shrink my template representation. I can't believe I'm still banging away at this. My sense of style is greatly offended. ;-) I also disagree with the subject line; the farther I go with this, the more it starts to look like Lisp. It's a far cry from the visual abuse you can deliver with Perl. -esm (lambda and map and reduce, oh my!) -- Edward S. Marshall http://esm.logic.net/ Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. From maney at two14.net Thu Dec 29 06:40:32 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 23:40:32 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <1135830676.28752.13.camel@performics.wireless> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> <20051229035031.GF2809@furrr.two14.net> <1135830676.28752.13.camel@performics.wireless> Message-ID: <20051229054032.GH2809@furrr.two14.net> On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 10:31:15PM -0600, Edward S. Marshall wrote: > I'm down to 198 bytes in a single line, without doing anything "clever" > with my output template yet (ie. it's still one long string, instead of > integers like everyone else seems to eventually move to). And if list > comprehensions are your thing, it's still fairly readable (although the > lack of whitespace and run-together nature is making me cross-eyed at > this point). I'm convinced the only significant way I can make this > smaller is to shrink my template representation. That sounds about right. I didn't save earlier versions, alas, but I hit 206 bytes (with some substantial whitespace and inlining improvements not yet performed) only after doing the first transformation from having fairly simple templates (that is, each digit's output representation was present as a disjoint bit of string literal(s)) to the first compressed one. That was still rebuilding the nested lists of strings, but repeated parts were assigned once and then included by name. It's fairly straightforward to get the representation down to one byte per digit, though there is of course a partially offsetting increase in code bulk to render that! > I can't believe I'm still banging away at this. My sense of style is > greatly offended. ;-) I also disagree with the subject line; the farther > I go with this, the more it starts to look like Lisp. It's a far cry > from the visual abuse you can deliver with Perl. I see what you mean, though it's not as confusing to the eye - my eye, at least - as Lisp gets because they're not all parentheses. Or not all "round" parentheses, if you want to look at it that way. I do understand the comparison with Perl, though. I, at least, do not normally write Python with such a high proportion of punctuation as this has become. :-) -- We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true. -- Robert Wilensky From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Dec 29 07:36:46 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:36:46 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <1135819991.22943.250696455@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> <1135819991.22943.250696455@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <43B383FE.9050707@colorstudy.com> Michael Dudzik wrote: > On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 19:17:11 -0600, "Ian Bicking" > said: > >>I also noticed this works for saving another character: >> >> [str(i)for i in(0,1,2)] > > > > While we're saving each other bytes: > > [str(i)for i in 0,1,2] For reasons that I think only become apparent when you starting thinking about weird nested of nested list comprehensions (which I haven't actually thought much about), this isn't allowed for generator comprehension, even if it is for list comprehension. E.g.: >>> print list(i for i in(1,2,3)) [1, 2, 3] >>> print list([i for i in 1,2,3]) [1, 2, 3] >>> print list(i for i in 1,2,3) File "", line 1 SyntaxError: invalid syntax So the generator seems to save one character, even though it requires the parenthesis. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From esm at logic.net Thu Dec 29 07:58:41 2005 From: esm at logic.net (Edward S. Marshall) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:58:41 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <20051229054032.GH2809@furrr.two14.net> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> <20051229035031.GF2809@furrr.two14.net> <1135830676.28752.13.camel@performics.wireless> <20051229054032.GH2809@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <1135839521.29391.6.camel@performics.wireless> On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 23:40 -0600, Martin Maney wrote: > It's fairly straightforward to get the > representation down to one byte per digit, though there is of course a > partially offsetting increase in code bulk to render that! *nod* I'm already down to 182 characters by just turning the template into a list of offsets in a list of known possible output combinations (and it actually shortened the code, too). I can easily see how you could get the representation for a digit down to a single byte, but the mental version of the code needed to extract it seems much longer than what I have now. Madness, all of this. ;-) And yet, I can't wait to see what the 120 character version looks like... -- Edward S. Marshall http://esm.logic.net/ Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. From mtobis at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 09:48:13 2005 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 02:48:13 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <20051229054032.GH2809@furrr.two14.net> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> <20051229035031.GF2809@furrr.two14.net> <1135830676.28752.13.camel@performics.wireless> <20051229054032.GH2809@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: Hats off to you gentlemen. I think I'm going to have to be satisfied with 182 or thereabouts. (I can't imagine how to get zlib to do anything for me!) I look forward to seeing the better solutions. mt From maney at two14.net Thu Dec 29 15:54:58 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 08:54:58 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <1135839521.29391.6.camel@performics.wireless> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> <20051229035031.GF2809@furrr.two14.net> <1135830676.28752.13.camel@performics.wireless> <20051229054032.GH2809@furrr.two14.net> <1135839521.29391.6.camel@performics.wireless> Message-ID: <20051229145458.GA24636@furrr.two14.net> On Thu, Dec 29, 2005 at 12:58:41AM -0600, Edward S. Marshall wrote: > (and it actually shortened the code, too). I can easily see how you > could get the representation for a digit down to a single byte, but the > mental version of the code needed to extract it seems much longer than > what I have now. Yeah, that's the tricky part. Of course there are a number of intermediate encodings possible as well, and in the end I suppose you just have to try them all and see which strikes the best balance between bytes spent on literals and bytes spent truning them into the required output. BTW, following Ian's suggestion to use lamda rather than the more customary function form does end up saving a few more characters. 134, and this time for sure that's as good as that encoding can get. :-/ > Madness, all of this. ;-) And yet, I can't wait to see what the 120 > character version looks like... I think Ian may have discovered it, although his overnight exclamtion on #chipy wasn't unambiguous (and I had gone to bed, so I wasn't there to ask for clarification). still resisiting'ly yours, but probably not for much longer'ly... -- Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the law. - Justice John Paul Stevens, from his dissenting opinion Dec 12, 2000 From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Dec 29 18:32:12 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:32:12 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you write Perl in Python? In-Reply-To: <20051229145458.GA24636@furrr.two14.net> References: <20051228070300.GA19442@furrr.two14.net> <43B3155B.6070409@colorstudy.com> <200512281650.24141.chipy@holovaty.com> <43B33917.3040304@colorstudy.com> <20051229035031.GF2809@furrr.two14.net> <1135830676.28752.13.camel@performics.wireless> <20051229054032.GH2809@furrr.two14.net> <1135839521.29391.6.camel@performics.wireless> <20051229145458.GA24636@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <43B41D9C.9080902@colorstudy.com> Martin Maney wrote: >>Madness, all of this. ;-) And yet, I can't wait to see what the 120 >>character version looks like... > > > I think Ian may have discovered it, although his overnight exclamtion > on #chipy wasn't unambiguous (and I had gone to bed, so I wasn't there > to ask for clarification). Yes, I did get it down. I'm not convinced 120 is the minimum... I feel like another character or two might be possible somehow, but I haven't figured anything out. The details: 2 lines, only uses the functions ''.join, int, and ord, plus some operators and loops, and 27 total characters of string literal. Python gives me a warning when I run it, but it works. -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org