From maney at two14.net Sat Oct 1 02:34:55 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:34:55 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] wiki Message-ID: <20051001003455.GA27671@furrr.two14.net> If anyone knows where to find the "revert to earlier, pre-spam, version of the page" function, there's loads of work for you. Looks like the "register and edit, no check at all" was too inviting to at least one vandal. :-( -- In terms of utility rather than dollars, I can spend "nothing" (which to a first approximation is the value of a dollar out of my weekly budget) to get a non-zero chance of completely changing my life. Or, in yet other terms, I can just wait for them to send me the check by mistake, which can't be *that* much less likely than actually winning [the lottery]. -- David Dyer-Bennet From skip at pobox.com Mon Oct 3 18:59:19 2005 From: skip at pobox.com (skip@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:59:19 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] wiki In-Reply-To: <20051001003455.GA27671@furrr.two14.net> References: <20051001003455.GA27671@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <17217.25447.808803.666867@montanaro.dyndns.org> Martin> If anyone knows where to find the "revert to earlier, pre-spam, Martin> version of the page" function, there's loads of work for you. Martin> Looks like the "register and edit, no check at all" was too Martin> inviting to at least one vandal. :-( Where's the wiki located? It looks like www.chipy.org is down, so I can't look there. At any rate, assuming this was built with Moin there should be a Get Info link. Click it, then click the appropriate "Revert" link to back up to the last "clean" page. -- Skip Montanaro Katrina Benefit Concerts: http://www.musi-cal.com/katrina skip at pobox.com From bray at sent.com Mon Oct 3 22:05:53 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:05:53 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] wiki In-Reply-To: <17217.25447.808803.666867@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <20051001003455.GA27671@furrr.two14.net> <17217.25447.808803.666867@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: We made some changes. The wiki is now MoinMoin and should still be located at http:// chipy.org . It is already viewable by some. Once it does show up for all, you will have to recreate your login. We saved 90% of everything from the old wiki. Sorry for the inconvenience. From maney at two14.net Tue Oct 4 06:58:20 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 23:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] wiki In-Reply-To: References: <20051001003455.GA27671@furrr.two14.net> <17217.25447.808803.666867@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20051004045820.GA19849@furrr.two14.net> On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 03:05:53PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote: > The wiki is now MoinMoin and should still be located at http://chipy.org Hurrah! > It is already viewable by some. Once it does show up for all, you > will have to recreate your login. We saved 90% of everything from the > old wiki. It appears to be setup so as to allow anyone to edit everything. As we've recently seen, requiring an easily-available user "account" doesn't stop spam, it's probably worth having. Moin currently handles that through its ACL mechanism: http://www.chipy.org/HelpOnAccessControlLists -- The Internet discourages reflection and deep thought. It encourages just glossing over, as quick as possible. The Internet is a terrific way to look up facts and a terrible way to get a story. -- Clifford Stoll From bray at sent.com Tue Oct 4 16:07:14 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:07:14 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] PyCon, Dallas, Adler, consequtive and other strange words... Message-ID: I wanted to point out the addition to the page http://chipy.org/PyCon by Ralph Green, Jr : As a member of the Dallas Bid committee for PyCon, I should tell you that PyCon is planned to be in Dallas for 2006 and 2007. The decision was made before we entered the bid that they were looking for a place to hold the convention for two consequtive years. But, good luck on a 2008/2009 bid. I love Chicago hot dogs and would look forward to a visit. It's no secret that Chicago is an excellent place to hold a convention of any sort. I suggest we bid on holding PyCon here for 50 consecutive years, 2000 - 2050. Likewise, we relocate all Python contributors to Chicago, permanently. I am joking of corse... or am I. Seriously, I think we should place a bid for whenever the next PyCon opportunity may be. We tend to have an abundance of resources and are one of the cites the world is familiar with hosting large- scale events. On the topic of meeting's of developers here on Chicago, I would like to point out the up and coming event: http://www.drunkenblog.com/drunkenblog-archives/000662.html Adler may also be a good location for PyCon? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051004/4559bfb8/attachment.html From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Thu Oct 6 12:31:57 2005 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 05:31:57 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Fw: Save ChiPy! For One Month! Message-ID: Sorry gang... I won't be able to host the meeting at ThoughtWorks tonight. :-( It turns out that I won't be able to attend either. :-( Any Plan C? Or Plan D? - Jason ----- Forwarded by Jason R Huggins/Corporate/ThoughtWorks/US on 10/06/2005 05:29 AM ----- Jason R Huggins/Corporate/ThoughtWorks/US wrote on 09/30/2005 04:11:45 PM: > I sent a request to the powers that be to see if TW can host the > October meeting... We'll see what happens... > > - Jason > > Edward Summers wrote on 09/30/2005 12:11:12 PM: > > That sounds interesting, and it would be cool to have a meeting at > > ThoughtWorks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051006/f0a366f2/attachment.html From bray at sent.com Thu Oct 6 19:41:04 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:41:04 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Super meeting next month Message-ID: <6A5EACC1-33DF-43FB-B311-2F5B3C6405D9@sent.com> Hello: We seem to be in weird scenario where all organizers are out of town or otherwise committed this month. Let's skip this month and have a super meeting next. Objections? Brian From RCRamsdell at gldd.com Thu Oct 6 22:43:12 2005 From: RCRamsdell at gldd.com (RCRamsdell@gldd.com) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 15:43:12 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Super meeting next month Message-ID: No objection. As an alternative we could skip the meeting room and retire straight to the bar after work thursday. If enough people are interested in driving to Oakbrook, I could offer the boardroom at work, but it is tricky to get into (doors lock at 5:00). Also not near a train. Robert -----Original Message----- From: chicago-bounces at python.org on behalf of Brian Ray Sent: Thu 10/6/2005 12:41 PM To: The Chicago Python Users Group Subject: [Chicago] Super meeting next month Hello: We seem to be in weird scenario where all organizers are out of town or otherwise committed this month. Let's skip this month and have a super meeting next. Objections? Brian _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2787 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051006/fac61505/attachment.bin From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 23:01:40 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:01:40 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Go Chicago! Message-ID: <3096c19d0510061401o11c8ad95j6a65e0dd114be650@mail.gmail.com> Neat, Tucows points to a blog (never heard of it, but it seems popular) that declares Chicago is...uh...cool. http://farm.tucows.com/blog/_archives/2005/10/5/1284030.html Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051006/dc4e660f/attachment.htm From maney at two14.net Tue Oct 11 06:39:41 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:39:41 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] They're doing it again... Message-ID: <20051011043941.GA12430@furrr.two14.net> "Create great web apps faster" Yes, it's yet another rails-like-thing-for-Python, but with one big difference: it's not all new code, but rather a consolidation of a bunch of existing parts (and, surely, some new code in the gaps or, well, somewhere). Complete with a "20 minute wiki" screencast. http://www.turbogears.org.nyud.net:8090/about/index.html Guess Django and all the other pretenders are obsolete now, huh? :-) -- Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, lbh'er va ivbyngvba bs gur Qvtvgny Zvyyraavhz Pbclevtug Npg. -- anon. From chipy at holovaty.com Tue Oct 11 15:30:20 2005 From: chipy at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:30:20 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] They're doing it again... In-Reply-To: <20051011043941.GA12430@furrr.two14.net> References: <20051011043941.GA12430@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <200510110830.20313.chipy@holovaty.com> Martin Maney wrote: > http://www.turbogears.org.nyud.net:8090/about/index.html > > Guess Django and all the other pretenders are obsolete now, huh? :-) Heh, I certainly wouldn't say that. I wish them luck, as it's nice to see Python gaining even more popularity -- but Django will always have the advantage that the many pieces of the puzzle fit together incredibly well, rather than being stacked together as an afterthought. I look forward to the friendly competition! Adrian From bray at sent.com Tue Oct 11 16:13:40 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:13:40 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] They're doing it again... In-Reply-To: <20051011043941.GA12430@furrr.two14.net> References: <20051011043941.GA12430@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2005, at 11:39 PM, Martin Maney wrote: > Guess Django and all the other pretenders are obsolete now, huh? :-) Django is a huge contender, why do you say different? It sounds like something personal or your trying to stir up some controversy or something. I blogged a bit about my thoughts on TurboGears . Basically, I am toying with the idea to get back and do some web- programming. All of these Frameworks have left me a bit perplexed. Then Ian starts to talk about framework frameworks... my head spins. I think I have a good understanding of the basic components which make up these frameworks. If fact, I guess what I put together in previous projects on my own could be considered a framework. I was not brave enough nor were they good enough to opensource. All I really want to do is put together some sort of CMS into a nice looking mostly static website. Then give my client a login to change some content in places. Maybe a webform. I would really like if we filled out our own page on this topic: http://chipy.org/webframeworks The Python.org wiki one is nice, but here we could actually touch on the webframeworks most often used in *this* circle. volunteers? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051011/a27954ce/attachment.htm From maney at two14.net Tue Oct 11 16:29:29 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:29:29 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] They're doing it again... In-Reply-To: References: <20051011043941.GA12430@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <20051011142929.GF19692@furrr.two14.net> On Tue, Oct 11, 2005 at 09:13:40AM -0500, Brian Ray wrote: > On Oct 10, 2005, at 11:39 PM, Martin Maney wrote: > >Guess Django and all the other pretenders are obsolete now, huh? :-) The foo-foo bird lays it eggs in the air... > Django is a huge contender, why do you say different? It sounds like > something personal or your trying to stir up some controversy or > something. Or humor, ironic. Guess I used the wrong smiley again. ;-( With a hint of the serious, maybe. At least as best I recall Adrian and company aren't actually trying to create a "Rails for Python", no matter how many bloggers fall back on that lazy, inaccurate description of Django. -- Self-pity is like sitting there and peeing your pants: at first, it's warm and comfy, but pretty soon it gets cold and then it starts to stink. - anonymous, as is traditional From ehs at pobox.com Tue Oct 11 16:55:11 2005 From: ehs at pobox.com (Edward Summers) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [Chicago-talk] Updated Meeting Announcement References: <2DA348AE-8E44-4A91-A274-AB132669806B@multiply.org> Message-ID: This might be of interest if the current plethora of web frameworks in python isn't enough and you want to think about ones in other languages :-) -- Begin forwarded message: > From: Jason Gessner > Date: October 10, 2005 10:31:35 PM CDT > To: "Chicago.pm chatter" > Subject: [Chicago-talk] Updated Meeting Announcement > Reply-To: "Chicago.pm chatter" > > > Hello all. > > Please join the Chicago Perl Mongers for an exciting look at two MVC > web application frameworks. > > First, Jason Gessner will present an introduction and a couple of > practical examples of Catalyst. > > Catalyst is an up and coming addition to the LAMP stack, an Elegant > Web Framework, supporting the MVC pattern, as well as a number of > experimental web patterns. It's heavily inspired by such frameworks > as Ruby On Rails, Maypole, and Spring. > Catalyst allows you to choose your favorite template language for the > View, and choose your favorite data access tool for the Model > portion. Catalyst also provides a powerful plugin system with dozens > of available plugins to simplify coding tasks. > The presentation will give a quick introduction to the framework and > then provide a couple of real world examples of Catalyst interacting > with Mason and Template Toolkit applications. > > > The second part of the evening will be John W. Long of the Chicago > Ruby Users Group giving an introduction to Ruby On Rails. > > GET TO THE POINT! WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RUBY AND RAILS > > Since its release just one year ago, Ruby on Rails has been > building > steam. Web developers begin casually experimenting with Rails and > soon > find themselves creating web applications with more power and less > code than they'd ever thought possible. > > Rails incorporates and dramatically simplifies many web > development > patterns and best practices, yet much of the reason for the > success of > Rails lies in the Ruby language itself. In this next presentation, > we?ll explore the many facets of this elegant and powerful > language > from Japan and what it may hold for the future of computing. We?ll > also take a bird?s eye view of the Rails framework and examine > insights of the systems that make up Rails. > > > Meeting Details: > When: Tuesday, October 18th, 2005, 7-9pm > Where: Performics > 180 N. Lasalle > 12th Floor > Chicago, IL 60601 > Directions: > http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=180+n+lasalle&csz=chicago% > 2C+IL+60601&country=us&new=1&name=&qty= > > The nearest El Stops are: > Blue Line, Brown Line, Green Line, Purple Line: Clark and Lake > (Thompson Center) > Red Line: Lake > > > If you are interested in attending the meeting, please RSVP to > jason at multiply.org by the morning of the meeting. > Because the meeting is after normal business hours, an RSVP is > required, as well as a photo ID. > > > About the Speakers > > Jason Gessner has been programming in perl for over 6 years, and has > been active in the local user groups for the last 3 years. He is > the lead > Search Developer at Performics, a leading Search Engine Marketing > company. > He is interested in catalyst and Rails primarily to stop doing boring > web > coding tasks and get more interesting work done. > > John W. Long has been an advocate of the Ruby programming language > since co-founding the Chicago Area Ruby Group in the fall of > 2003. He > has three years of experience with the Ruby programming language, > coming to the scene well before Ruby on Rails was even an > option. He > is responsible for several Web applications (some written in Rails > and > some not) where he works as a Web developer for the Institute in > Basic > Life Principles, a non-profit organization based out of Oak > Brook. As > a member of the Ruby Visual Identity Team, he is hard at work > participating in an upcoming redesign of ruby-lang.org. > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk From bray at sent.com Tue Oct 11 16:58:15 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:58:15 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] They're doing it again... In-Reply-To: <20051011142929.GF19692@furrr.two14.net> References: <20051011043941.GA12430@furrr.two14.net> <20051011142929.GF19692@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2005, at 9:29 AM, Martin Maney wrote: > > The foo-foo bird lays it eggs in the air... > If the forum was not so quiet lately and if I was not so foolish, I would not bother reading your response and trying to figure out what your really trying to say here ; ) > > With a hint of the serious, maybe. At least as best I recall Adrian > and company aren't actually trying to create a "Rails for Python", no > matter how many bloggers fall back on that lazy, inaccurate > description > of Django. You do not need to go to blog entries to get a description of django, go to their website http://www.djangoproject.com/. Blog entries are good (if you as me) to voice opinions, get feedback, and keep a history on the topic. Plus, they kind of fix the active/ passive issue with communication of an opinion. For example, I can say something on my blog and I will not be shoving this down the throat of every mail list subscriber. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051011/21f55963/attachment.html From skip at pobox.com Tue Oct 11 17:19:34 2005 From: skip at pobox.com (skip@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:19:34 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] They're doing it again... In-Reply-To: References: <20051011043941.GA12430@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <17227.55302.441715.388014@montanaro.dyndns.org> Brian> I would really like if we filled out our own page on this topic: Brian> http://chipy.org/webframeworks The Python.org wiki one is nice, Brian> but here we could actually touch on the webframeworks most often Brian> used in *this* circle. volunteers? Why duplicate effort? Why not just improve/extend the page on the Python wiki? Skip From bray at sent.com Tue Oct 11 17:35:05 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:35:05 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] They're doing it again... In-Reply-To: <17227.55302.441715.388014@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <20051011043941.GA12430@furrr.two14.net> <17227.55302.441715.388014@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2005, at 10:19 AM, skip at pobox.com wrote: > > Why duplicate effort? Why not just improve/extend the page on the > Python > wiki? What I really would like to see happen is some sort of minutes or representation on the presentations given at ChiPy meetings... more in-depth. My one complaint about the Python wiki is I feel some are afraid to go into real depth on their own topics--seeing this a selfish or that people do not what to hear it. Where with Chipy, it's more likely we will know who is saying what and where they are coming from. I still do not know most of the people who publish on the main Python wiki. Pages on the Python wiki often end up as list of links... not that helpful if you do not wish to follow every link. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051011/6e627d33/attachment-0001.htm From skip at pobox.com Tue Oct 11 17:54:05 2005 From: skip at pobox.com (skip@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:54:05 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [Chicago-talk] Updated Meeting Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <2DA348AE-8E44-4A91-A274-AB132669806B@multiply.org> Message-ID: <17227.57373.772813.628376@montanaro.dyndns.org> >> Please join the Chicago Perl Mongers for an exciting look at two MVC >> web application frameworks. Okay, I'll fess up. MVC has never made any sense to me, at least in the examples I've seen. I've encountered it over and over again in my programming career and for some reason it has just never clicked with me. Maybe all the examples I've seen of it have been examples of MVC done badly. Pointers to lucid descriptions and examples cheerfully accepted. Thx, -- Skip Montanaro Katrina Benefit Concerts: http://www.musi-cal.com/katrina skip at pobox.com From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Tue Oct 11 17:59:08 2005 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:59:08 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] They're doing it again... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Brian Ray wrote on 10/11/2005 10:35:05 AM: > My one complaint about the Python wiki is I feel some are > afraid to go into real depth on their own topics--seeing this a > selfish or that people do not what to hear it. Perhaps this is a problem with Wikis in general... I don't know if I'm only one with this phobia... But rarely do I feel comfortable editing other people's wiki's because my perception is that a wiki's content is supposed to represent "The TRUTH"... many times I have opinions on what I think the truth is, but very rarely do I actually know "THE TRUTH" *and* am willing to broadcast that to the world as "THE TRUTH". Given that handicap, I prefer to add comments to a page (tagged with my name at the bottom of the page). Then the authors of THE TRUTH can integrate my comments at some later point if it turns out that my comment uncovered more TRUTH was not just idle speculation or opinion. The Django project (bless them and their TRUTHfulness) enables commenting on most anything on the site... With that option, I've added comments all over the place. I even like the disclaimer they make: Taken from http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/overview/ """ Note: Please only use the comments for questions/critcisms/suggestions on the docs; if you experience errors please file a ticket, ask in the IRC channel, or post to the django-users list. Comments will be periodically reviewed, integrated into the documentation proper, and removed. """ So, going back to the off-topic topic... Perhaps the resistance to updating the python wiki is a fear of stepping on someone's toes at python.org and not wanting to speak for all humans as to what "THE TRUTH" is. With a chipy.org wiki page, we can say what "THE TRUTH" is, at least as it's been revealed in Chicagoland. But with Chicago being the digital nerve center for "Web 2.0" these days, maybe Chicago TRUTH is THE TRUTH? - Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051011/570ab572/attachment.html From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Oct 11 18:00:57 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:00:57 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [Chicago-talk] Updated Meeting Announcement In-Reply-To: <17227.57373.772813.628376@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <2DA348AE-8E44-4A91-A274-AB132669806B@multiply.org> <17227.57373.772813.628376@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <434BE1B9.3000102@colorstudy.com> skip at pobox.com wrote: > >> Please join the Chicago Perl Mongers for an exciting look at two MVC > >> web application frameworks. > > Okay, I'll fess up. MVC has never made any sense to me, at least in the > examples I've seen. I've encountered it over and over again in my > programming career and for some reason it has just never clicked with me. > Maybe all the examples I've seen of it have been examples of MVC done badly. > Pointers to lucid descriptions and examples cheerfully accepted. MVC in web apps is pretty simple: * The View is your templates, or general HTML-generating code. * The Controller is the first thing to respond to requests, generally performing actions based on form submissions, and fetching any referenced objects. E.g., when you access /view?article_id=5, the code that gets Article 5 is probably controllerish. * The Model is your code and domain objects that aren't specifically related to the web. It's Article in this case. MVC design tries to keep these three roles separate. In GUI code MVC can be a little more complicated, as Model isn't "just" all the other code, since often the View and Model are directly connected (so the View can immediately see updates to the Model). But since you can't immediately see anything in HTTP this is not an issue. -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Oct 11 18:13:56 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:13:56 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] They're doing it again... In-Reply-To: <200510110830.20313.chipy@holovaty.com> References: <20051011043941.GA12430@furrr.two14.net> <200510110830.20313.chipy@holovaty.com> Message-ID: <434BE4C4.4030607@colorstudy.com> Adrian Holovaty wrote: > Martin Maney wrote: > >> http://www.turbogears.org.nyud.net:8090/about/index.html >> >>Guess Django and all the other pretenders are obsolete now, huh? :-) > > > Heh, I certainly wouldn't say that. I wish them luck, as it's nice to see > Python gaining even more popularity -- but Django will always have the > advantage that the many pieces of the puzzle fit together incredibly well, > rather than being stacked together as an afterthought. FWIW, people responsible for each piece of the stack are on the TurboGears list, and even if they aren't using it directly (I'm not, for instance) they are still helping out with its development in their respective areas. Similarly we're seeing a cloud of interlocking commit privileges develop, and I've already seen people who started with TurboGears send contributions to its constituent projects. I've even seen useful exchanges between Subway people and TurboGears people, which is a sensitive area since they so closely overlap. Open source software is very maleable. -- Ian Bicking / ianb at colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org From aaryal at foresightint.com Tue Oct 11 19:21:00 2005 From: aaryal at foresightint.com (anoop aryal) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:21:00 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [Chicago-talk] Updated Meeting Announcement In-Reply-To: <434BE1B9.3000102@colorstudy.com> References: <2DA348AE-8E44-4A91-A274-AB132669806B@multiply.org> <17227.57373.772813.628376@montanaro.dyndns.org> <434BE1B9.3000102@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <200510111221.00282.aaryal@foresightint.com> On Tuesday 11 October 2005 11:00 am, Ian Bicking wrote: > skip at pobox.com wrote: > > >> Please join the Chicago Perl Mongers for an exciting look at two > > >> MVC web application frameworks. > > > > Okay, I'll fess up. MVC has never made any sense to me, at least in the > > examples I've seen. I've encountered it over and over again in my > > programming career and for some reason it has just never clicked with me. > > Maybe all the examples I've seen of it have been examples of MVC done > > badly. Pointers to lucid descriptions and examples cheerfully accepted. > > MVC in web apps is pretty simple: > > * The View is your templates, or general HTML-generating code. > * The Controller is the first thing to respond to requests, generally > performing actions based on form submissions, and fetching any > referenced objects. E.g., when you access /view?article_id=5, the code > that gets Article 5 is probably controllerish. > * The Model is your code and domain objects that aren't specifically > related to the web. It's Article in this case. > > MVC design tries to keep these three roles separate. In GUI code MVC > can be a little more complicated, as Model isn't "just" all the other > code, since often the View and Model are directly connected (so the View > can immediately see updates to the Model). But since you can't > immediately see anything in HTTP this is not an issue. i'll take a stab. :) the explanation that stuck with me the most was to think of the model as the entire abstraction of the data constructs that you might have. then, view is any representation of that data to the user. the most significant thing is that you can have one 'model'; but you can have multiple views. for example, in the above example, your model is the 'article' or a collection of articles. your view might be a 'summary list of articles', nested view of articles etc. the key point is that the view (or the visual representation) changes but the underlying data is the same. ie. you have different views of the same model. consider a filesystem. the files/directories are your model. in 'file explorer', you can choose to view it as a list, a tree, filmstrip, thumbnails etc. these are all different views to the same model. if you change the model, all the different views get updated. the big idea here is that each view goes back to some common code/interface - the model - instead of repeating it within itself. now, in the web context, i like to think of the controller as the guy that sits in the middle that takes action on the model (updating/altering it some way) and then deciding which view to present the model with. hope it helps. anoop. From fitz at red-bean.com Wed Oct 12 04:44:29 2005 From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:44:29 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [Chicago-talk] Updated Meeting Announcement In-Reply-To: <17227.57373.772813.628376@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <2DA348AE-8E44-4A91-A274-AB132669806B@multiply.org> <17227.57373.772813.628376@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2005, at 10:54 AM, skip at pobox.com wrote: > > >>> Please join the Chicago Perl Mongers for an exciting look at two MVC >>> web application frameworks. >>> > > Okay, I'll fess up. MVC has never made any sense to me, at least > in the > examples I've seen. I've encountered it over and over again in my > programming career and for some reason it has just never clicked > with me. > Maybe all the examples I've seen of it have been examples of MVC > done badly. > Pointers to lucid descriptions and examples cheerfully accepted. I drank the NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP Koolaid years ago, followed that up with a double dose of WebObjects, and I'm hooked forever on MVC. One of the Apple guys even wrote a song at WWDC one year that explained what MVC was, and it was very educational, but I can't find the video. :-) -Fitz, not much help after all From jason at multiply.org Wed Oct 12 04:53:28 2005 From: jason at multiply.org (Jason Gessner) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:53:28 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [Chicago-talk] Updated Meeting Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <2DA348AE-8E44-4A91-A274-AB132669806B@multiply.org> <17227.57373.772813.628376@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <32444FD1-8575-4BAC-80C4-920A33B0CB65@multiply.org> i didn't find a video, but i did find this mp3: http://mikezornek.com/blog/audio/ModelViewController.mp3 is this the same thing? -jason gessner jason at multiply.org On Oct 11, 2005, at 9:44 PM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote: > > On Oct 11, 2005, at 10:54 AM, skip at pobox.com wrote: > > >> >> >> >>>> Please join the Chicago Perl Mongers for an exciting look at two >>>> MVC >>>> web application frameworks. >>>> >>>> >> >> Okay, I'll fess up. MVC has never made any sense to me, at least >> in the >> examples I've seen. I've encountered it over and over again in my >> programming career and for some reason it has just never clicked >> with me. >> Maybe all the examples I've seen of it have been examples of MVC >> done badly. >> Pointers to lucid descriptions and examples cheerfully accepted. >> > > I drank the NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP Koolaid years ago, followed that up > with a double dose of WebObjects, and I'm hooked forever on MVC. One > of the Apple guys even wrote a song at WWDC one year that explained > what MVC was, and it was very educational, but I can't find the > video. :-) > > -Fitz, not much help after all > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From fitz at red-bean.com Wed Oct 12 05:58:46 2005 From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:58:46 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [Chicago-talk] Updated Meeting Announcement In-Reply-To: <32444FD1-8575-4BAC-80C4-920A33B0CB65@multiply.org> References: <2DA348AE-8E44-4A91-A274-AB132669806B@multiply.org> <17227.57373.772813.628376@montanaro.dyndns.org> <32444FD1-8575-4BAC-80C4-920A33B0CB65@multiply.org> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2005, at 9:53 PM, Jason Gessner wrote: > i didn't find a video, but i did find this mp3: > http://mikezornek.com/blog/audio/ModelViewController.mp3 > > is this the same thing? Yes! That's it! The song's got a good description, but the slides are hysterical. -Fitz PS That's James Dempsey singing. He's also done other songs about Enterprise Objects and Cocoa. He's my hero. From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Oct 13 07:34:12 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:34:12 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Python/Ruby/Web meeting Message-ID: <434DF1D4.3040701@colorstudy.com> Hi Mike. I'm being a very bad organizer, and doing a bad job of keeping on top of everything. *But*, there's lots of other people involved, so in the interest of moving this along I'm copying everyone to open it up a bit... The people: Mike Saia is with the DePaul Computer Science Society, and they are interested in sponsoring a special meeting, around Rails, Django, Python, Ruby, agile web development, etc. David Heinemeier Hansson , author of Rails, guy to do talking. He's coming to live in Chicago, and has said that early December would probably be a good time. Adrian Holovaty , author of Django, another talking guy. His schedule is fairly open. John Long , head of the Ruby Meetup group in Chicago, interested in helping organize. Also in that group is Ryan Platte . Chicago Python group (ChiPy) . There's a bunch of us, and somehow half of us our out of town, having babies, or otherwise occupied right now, so we've actually cancelled the October meeting. But besides this odd concurrence of otherwise-occupiedness we're pretty active. Some of the other people who have been active in organizing: Michael Tobis, Chris McAvoy, Brian Ray, David Rock... just to name a few. Anyway, this is the cast of characters. We're not exactly event planners. Some initial thoughts we've had: * Given enough lead time (which we'd have for a December event) we think we could get a pretty good audience. For instance, we were thinking about trying to get Slashdot to post something asking for questions for the event. A bit of publicity, open up questions ahead of time, and so forth. And the blog world loves these things. 100 people perhaps? But I have no idea. * Food... I don't know. If it's a problem, we certainly don't need food. If it is an after-work event, though, food can be nice. * I think audio equipment of some sort would be useful, this could certainly turn into a podcast or something. I don't think visual equipment is as important; I don't know if we'd have any slides or anything. I doubt it. * Topic-wise, we're thinking "agile web development". There's also possible language discussions, though comparing and contrasting Python and Ruby might be a little too detailed a conversation, with less relevence to people who aren't using either. Sorry again for not being more responsive. I'm heading on vacation, so I won't be able to follow up for another week, but I'm hoping the other people involved can do better. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From rc.dillenburg at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 06:11:25 2005 From: rc.dillenburg at gmail.com (Russell Dillenburg) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:11:25 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Python/Ruby/Web meeting In-Reply-To: <434DF1D4.3040701@colorstudy.com> References: <434DF1D4.3040701@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <408c01040510132111y3b297d7t555243bc8f573987@mail.gmail.com> Just thought i would add a a name to this thread. Brandon Griffis bgriffis at students.depaul.edu -- Brandon is the president of the depaul linux group. Depaul linux group has their weekly meetings at the depaul lincoln park student center. See their web site at linux.depaul.edufor a schedule of the talks that are planned for the upcoming weeks. ~Russ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ian Bicking Date: Oct 13, 2005 12:34 AM Subject: [Chicago] Python/Ruby/Web meeting To: Michael Saia Cc: ryan.platte at pobox.com, david at loudthinking.com, adrian at holovaty.com, chicago at python.org, ws at johnwlong.com Hi Mike. I'm being a very bad organizer, and doing a bad job of keeping on top of everything. *But*, there's lots of other people involved, so in the interest of moving this along I'm copying everyone to open it up a bit... The people: Mike Saia is with the DePaul Computer Science Society, and they are interested in sponsoring a special meeting, around Rails, Django, Python, Ruby, agile web development, etc. David Heinemeier Hansson , author of Rails, guy to do talking. He's coming to live in Chicago, and has said that early December would probably be a good time. Adrian Holovaty , author of Django, another talking guy. His schedule is fairly open. I've seen the talk he gave on django, very interesting web framework. Russ: Yes, I was there too and indeed it was an interesting web framework. John Long , head of the Ruby Meetup group in Chicago, interested in helping organize. Also in that group is Ryan Platte . Chicago Python group (ChiPy) . There's a bunch of us, and somehow half of us our out of town, having babies, or otherwise occupied right now, so we've actually cancelled the October meeting. But besides this odd concurrence of otherwise-occupiedness we're pretty active. Some of the other people who have been active in organizing: Michael Tobis, Chris McAvoy, Brian Ray, David Rock... just to name a few. Anyway, this is the cast of characters. We're not exactly event planners. Some initial thoughts we've had: * Given enough lead time (which we'd have for a December event) we think we could get a pretty good audience. For instance, we were thinking about trying to get Slashdot to post something asking for questions for the event. A bit of publicity, open up questions ahead of time, and so forth. And the blog world loves these things. 100 people perhaps? But I have no idea. * Food... I don't know. If it's a problem, we certainly don't need food. If it is an after-work event, though, food can be nice. * I think audio equipment of some sort would be useful, this could certainly turn into a podcast or something. I don't think visual equipment is as important; I don't know if we'd have any slides or anything. I doubt it. * Topic-wise, we're thinking "agile web development". There's also possible language discussions, though comparing and contrasting Python and Ruby might be a little too detailed a conversation, with less relevence to people who aren't using either. Sorry again for not being more responsive. I'm heading on vacation, so I won't be able to follow up for another week, but I'm hoping the other people involved can do better. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051013/73499df3/attachment.html From jason at multiply.org Sat Oct 15 23:10:49 2005 From: jason at multiply.org (Jason Gessner) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 16:10:49 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] OT: Computer for sale or carry Message-ID: Hi All. I have an old compaq 3000 6U server that i want to get rid of. The machine has ~300 meg of ram, has 2 333mhz p2 processors and a 32 or 64MB raid driver. I have 7 9 gig scsi drives in it right now. I don't want much for it. If anyone is interested (and willing to come get it in bartlett) drop me an email and let me know what you want to pay or trade. Thanks! -jason gessner jason at multiply.org From jason at multiply.org Sun Oct 16 00:00:36 2005 From: jason at multiply.org (Jason Gessner) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:00:36 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] OT: Computer for sale or carry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The machine also has a 35/70GB DLT drive (internal scsi) and i have 7 tapes for it). -jason gessner jason at multiply.org On Oct 15, 2005, at 4:10 PM, Jason Gessner wrote: > Hi All. > > I have an old compaq 3000 6U server that i want to get rid of. > > The machine has ~300 meg of ram, has 2 333mhz p2 processors and a 32 > or 64MB raid driver. I have 7 9 gig scsi drives in it right now. > > I don't want much for it. If anyone is interested (and willing to > come get it in bartlett) drop me an email and let me know what you > want to pay or trade. > > Thanks! > > -jason gessner > jason at multiply.org > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From jason at multiply.org Sun Oct 16 00:11:52 2005 From: jason at multiply.org (Jason Gessner) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:11:52 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] [Chicago-talk] OT: Computer for sale or carry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok, last one, i swear. I also have a spare Compaq P110 21" trinitron and a 17" CRT. Both are in good shape. Anyone interested, drop me a line. -jason gessner jason at multiply.org On Oct 15, 2005, at 5:00 PM, Jason Gessner wrote: > The machine also has a 35/70GB DLT drive (internal scsi) and i have 7 > tapes for it). > > -jason gessner > jason at multiply.org > > > On Oct 15, 2005, at 4:10 PM, Jason Gessner wrote: > > >> Hi All. >> >> I have an old compaq 3000 6U server that i want to get rid of. >> >> The machine has ~300 meg of ram, has 2 333mhz p2 processors and a 32 >> or 64MB raid driver. I have 7 9 gig scsi drives in it right now. >> >> I don't want much for it. If anyone is interested (and willing to >> come get it in bartlett) drop me an email and let me know what you >> want to pay or trade. >> >> Thanks! >> >> -jason gessner >> jason at multiply.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago-talk mailing list > Chicago-talk at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk > From maney at two14.net Thu Oct 20 07:53:05 2005 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:53:05 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Obnoxiously non-working "NewsTeaser" on wiki? Message-ID: <20051020055305.GA14484@furrr.two14.net> Is it just me and my Firefox who found themselves seeing the (unrequested by me, I believe) "chipy" theme, and that the NewsTeaser overlays most of the useful links and buttons near the top of the page? Workaround: Neither classic nor modern themes seem to be afflicted with the nasty thing. Maybe. I thought at least one of those didn't fix it the first time I tried changing it. -- For we are pursuing an attempt at the diffusion of knowledge and the useful arts which is already proving far more effective at diffusing knowledge than all of the profit-motivated proprietary software distribution being conducted by the grandest and best funded monopoly in the history of the world. -- Eben Moglen From RCRamsdell at gldd.com Thu Oct 20 15:54:50 2005 From: RCRamsdell at gldd.com (RCRamsdell@gldd.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:54:50 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Obnoxiously non-working "NewsTeaser" on wiki? Message-ID: I'm using the default theme and see the same. It is very annoying. While I was in there I updated the 'next meeting' on the main page, and moved the September meeting topics to the 'Past meetings' page. However, I was not there in September, so maybe someone who was can check to see if the topics are what was actually presented? If someone sends me links to the presentations, I'll put them in the wiki as well. Robert > -----Original Message----- > From: chicago-bounces at python.org > [mailto:chicago-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Martin Maney > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:53 AM > To: chicago at python.org > Subject: [Chicago] Obnoxiously non-working "NewsTeaser" on wiki? > > > > Is it just me and my Firefox who found themselves seeing the > (unrequested by me, I believe) "chipy" theme, and that the > NewsTeaser overlays most of the useful links and buttons near > the top of the page? > > Workaround: Neither classic nor modern themes seem to be > afflicted with the nasty thing. Maybe. I thought at least > one of those didn't fix it the first time I tried changing it. > > -- > For we are pursuing an attempt at the diffusion of knowledge > and the useful arts which is already proving far more > effective at diffusing knowledge than all of the > profit-motivated proprietary software distribution being > conducted by the grandest and best funded monopoly in the > history of the world. -- Eben Moglen > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From bray at sent.com Thu Oct 20 19:05:18 2005 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:05:18 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Obnoxiously non-working "NewsTeaser" on wiki? In-Reply-To: <20051020055305.GA14484@furrr.two14.net> References: <20051020055305.GA14484@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <455D87D3-967E-41B5-AE1A-2B35834FAE81@sent.com> You can change your theme in your user preferences. The NewsTeaser has been turned off. On Oct 20, 2005, at 12:53 AM, Martin Maney wrote: > > Is it just me and my Firefox who found themselves seeing the > (unrequested by me, I believe) "chipy" theme, and that the NewsTeaser > overlays most of the useful links and buttons near the top of the > page? From mtobis at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 20:45:04 2005 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:45:04 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] November meeting Message-ID: Great work on new the wiki layout, whoever did it! However, I am out of town on business November 10 and cannot host at the Monadnock on that day (or that week). Michael From david at graniteweb.com Mon Oct 24 21:59:07 2005 From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:59:07 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] November meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051024195907.GA1357@wdfs.graniteweb.com> * Michael Tobis [2005-10-24 13:45]: > Great work on new the wiki layout, whoever did it! > > However, I am out of town on business November 10 and cannot host at > the Monadnock on that day (or that week). How about Downers Grove? -- David Rock david at graniteweb.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051024/c41abb14/attachment.pgp From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 22:07:39 2005 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:07:39 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] November meeting In-Reply-To: <20051024195907.GA1357@wdfs.graniteweb.com> References: <20051024195907.GA1357@wdfs.graniteweb.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0510241307m61ab6f2as57353ecb7f3dd57e@mail.gmail.com> On 10/24/05, David Rock wrote: > > How about Downers Grove? I may be able to hook up a downtown location as well. I think we're due for a suburbs visit though. I'm ok with either. The mysterious downtown location I'm talking about has mentioned their willingness to be available on a regular basis. Chris "Mystery!" McAvoy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051024/b5de46b0/attachment.htm From rc.dillenburg at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 22:19:39 2005 From: rc.dillenburg at gmail.com (Russell Dillenburg) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:19:39 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] November meeting In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0510241307m61ab6f2as57353ecb7f3dd57e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051024195907.GA1357@wdfs.graniteweb.com> <3096c19d0510241307m61ab6f2as57353ecb7f3dd57e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <408c01040510241319o334ed0cfs5d34a8094a43ee8d@mail.gmail.com> I will try to make it to this meeting. ~Russell Dillenburg On 10/24/05, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > On 10/24/05, David Rock wrote: > > > > How about Downers Grove? > > > > I may be able to hook up a downtown location as well. I think we're due > for a suburbs visit though. I'm ok with either. The mysterious downtown > location I'm talking about has mentioned their willingness to be available > on a regular basis. > > Chris "Mystery!" McAvoy > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20051024/863ab277/attachment.html From RCRamsdell at gldd.com Tue Oct 25 00:14:48 2005 From: RCRamsdell at gldd.com (RCRamsdell@gldd.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:14:48 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] November meeting Message-ID: I intend to be at this meeting, and am still willing to do a 'module of the month'. Robert > -----Original Message----- > From: chicago-bounces at python.org > [mailto:chicago-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of David Rock > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 2:59 PM > To: The Chicago Python Users Group > Subject: Re: [Chicago] November meeting > > > * Michael Tobis [2005-10-24 13:45]: > > Great work on new the wiki layout, whoever did it! > > > > However, I am out of town on business November 10 and > cannot host at > > the Monadnock on that day (or that week). > > How about Downers Grove? > > -- > David Rock > david at graniteweb.com > From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Oct 25 19:20:29 2005 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:20:29 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] [Fwd: Reminder: PyCon proposals due in a week] Message-ID: <435E695D.4070205@colorstudy.com> One week left... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Reminder: PyCon proposals due in a week Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:04:23 -0400 From: A.M. Kuchling Reply-To: python-list at python.org, amk at amk.ca To: python-list at python.org, python-announce at python.org The deadline for PyCon 2006 submissions is now only a week away. If you've been procrastinating about putting your outline together, now's the time to get going... Call for Proposals: http://www.python.org/pycon/2006/cfp Proposal submission site: http://submit.python.org/ --amk