From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Jul 5 20:06:55 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:06:55 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Python Functional Programming Tutorial Message-ID: <3096c19d0607051106g336482d9gecadd9c0acfee8d1@mail.gmail.com> FP was the hot topic a year ago on this list. AMK put out a tutorial on FP style programming with Python: http://www.amk.ca/python/writing/functional I've only skimmed it at this point, but my skimmy impression is it's pretty great. Thought I'd throw it out there. Maney responds in 5....4....3.....2.... Chris From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Wed Jul 5 20:20:38 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:20:38 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Reminder - TechSocial this Thursday in Lincoln Park. Message-ID: URL: http://techsocial.com/ When and where: Thursday, July 6, 2006 from 6:30 to 10pm at State in Lincoln Park in Chicago, Illinois. Why: """The inaugural Tech Cocktail will be an evening of fun mingling with other technology enthusiasts, VCs, bloggers and entrepreneurs. A few of the hottest Chicago startups will be demoing their products. Additionally, we will be giving away a few products from Apple. Our hope is that TECH cocktail (a quarterly mixer for bloggers, technology enthusiasts, entrepreneurs and other business professionals interested in the technology arena in Chicago) can help build a better connected Chicago tech community by meeting up to share ideas and have some fun.""" - Jason P.S. TechCoffee #3 will be next Monday, July 10 at Caribou Coffee at Lake & La Salle from 6:00 to 8:00 a.m. (same time and place as usual.) There wasn't a TechCoffee this week with July 3rd being a quazi-official holiday for half the city. If want to see some cool Selenium testing Django stuff stop on by Caribou next Monday. :-) From PRobare at chx.com Wed Jul 5 22:00:06 2006 From: PRobare at chx.com (Robare, Phil) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 15:00:06 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Reminder - TechSocial this Thursday in Lincoln Park. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB770@MX3.chx.com> An additional URL for info is http://techcocktail.com/blog/2006/05/25/tech-cocktail-event-july-6-2006- at-state-chicago/ I think it might be a little crowded. I was number 178 to RSVP. State restaurant's web site is useless. Googling it reveals the address to be 935 W. Webster, south side of the street just east of the El tracks and two blocks south of the Fullerton stop on the Red/Brown/Purple lines. Jason R Huggins wrote on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 1:21 PM: > TechSocial this Thursday in Lincoln Park. > > URL: > http://techsocial.com/ > > When and where: > Thursday, July 6, 2006 from 6:30 to 10pm at State in Lincoln Park in > Chicago, Illinois. From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Wed Jul 5 22:08:15 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 15:08:15 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Reminder - Tech*cocktail* this Thursday in Lincoln Park. In-Reply-To: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB770@MX3.chx.com> Message-ID: > An additional URL for info is > http://techcocktail.com/blog/2006/05/25/tech-cocktail-event-july-6-2006-at-state-chicago/ Doh!. I meant TechCocktail, not TechSocial... Too many dang Tech*.com sites to keep straight. :-) -Jason P.S. Back to reading TechCrunch.com for me! From jason at hostedlabs.com Wed Jul 5 22:16:31 2006 From: jason at hostedlabs.com (Jason Rexilius) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 15:16:31 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] BARcamp Chicago 15-16 July Message-ID: <44AC1E1F.3060606@hostedlabs.com> Hello everyone! July is turning out to be a great month for Chicago Tech! As most of you have probably heard BARcamp Chicago ( http://barcampchicago.com/ ) is on for 15-16 July at 648 w Randolph. Also note that tomorrow night (6th July) TECHcocktail ( http://www.techcocktail.com/blog/ ) is happening at 935 w Webster (STATE). It looks like its going to be a fun time! Also a new group meeting has been shaping up for regular code jamming or hack sessions. Take a look at: http://techcoffee.infogami.com/ BARcamp is looking to be a good weekend and will be a combined event with the Chicago Linux Users Group meeting. There are close to 70 people expected for BARcamp plus the Linux User community.. So far the agenda looks to have the following in the mix: 1) 48 hour dot com project - a showcase for the RAD development platforms, Chicago tech savvy and entrepreneurial spirit. Friendly competition of RubyOnRails, PHP, Python in building agile user applications.. (see: http://barcampchicago.com/index.php?wiki=The24hrDotCom) 2) Discussions on building scalable high-performance next-gen web applications (see: http://jasonrexilius.com/GloballyDistributedWebCluster.php ) 3) Building a Chicago coworking environment (see: http://coworking.pbwiki.com/ ) 4) Linux install fest and discussions (see: http://luni.org/wiki/index.php/Conference ) The after party will be Sunday night at Rodan on Milwaukee, (see: http://www.rodan.ws/default.html ) We have a few sponsors and many in the community have offered to help bring supplies and equipment, but we are still looking for sponsors as we have to rent the facility and pay for event insurance. We currently have the following companies offering assistance: Brian Schoen of Real Network Solutions http://www.realnets.com/ Dan Ratner of SitterCity.com http://www.sittercity.com/ Sean Johnson of Intentionally Designed http://www.intentionallydesigned.com/ Also looking for any other discussion ideas or projects! Check out the site, reply to the email, give me a call or just show up! We are short on the Java side by the way.. I know all the java people are boring corporate stiffs but.. oh wait, save my language flame warring for the event.. Also we are short Perl peoples... where are the rest of the hackers? At any rate, I am looking forward to seeing you all there and hope everyone had a good 4th! - Jason Rexilius jason at hostedlabs.com 847.208.1000 From maney at two14.net Thu Jul 6 03:38:30 2006 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 20:38:30 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Python Functional Programming Tutorial In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607051106g336482d9gecadd9c0acfee8d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <3096c19d0607051106g336482d9gecadd9c0acfee8d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060706013830.GE8239@furrr.two14.net> On Wed, Jul 05, 2006 at 01:06:55PM -0500, Chris McAvoy wrote: > I've only skimmed it at this point, but my skimmy impression is it's > pretty great. Thought I'd throw it out there. A.M. is one of the short list names I used to look for when I was trying to pretend I could keep up with c.l.p. for some useful meaning of "keep up with". Anyone know if he actually has a first name? :-) > Maney responds in 5....4....3.....2.... /me is running behind schedule, and only has time enough to gesture vaguely in the direction of http://gnosis.cx/TPiP/ -- Neither can his mind be in tune, whose words do jarre, nor his reason in frame, whose sentence is preposterous. -- Ben Jonson From skip at pobox.com Thu Jul 6 17:56:03 2006 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:56:03 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Python Functional Programming Tutorial In-Reply-To: <20060706013830.GE8239@furrr.two14.net> References: <3096c19d0607051106g336482d9gecadd9c0acfee8d1@mail.gmail.com> <20060706013830.GE8239@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <17581.12947.734612.744513@montanaro.dyndns.org> Martin> A.M. is one of the short list names I used to look for when I Martin> was trying to pretend I could keep up with c.l.p. for some Martin> useful meaning of "keep up with". Anyone know if he actually Martin> has a first name? :-) Indeed. Andrew (Kuchling) never seems to make bad decisions, certainly not regarding Python. He was the first recipient of the Frank Willison Award for contributions to the Python community: http://www.amk.ca/conceit/fw-award.html http://lwn.net/2002/0214/a/willison-award.php3 Later recipients include Fredrik Lundh (2003) and Cameron Laird (2004). I don't know if one was awarded in 2005. Skip From jason at hostedlabs.com Wed Jul 5 21:40:22 2006 From: jason at hostedlabs.com (Jason Rexilius) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 14:40:22 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] BARcamp Chicago 15-16 July Message-ID: <44AC15A6.7040207@hostedlabs.com> Hello everyone! July is turning out to be a great month for Chicago Tech! As most of you have probably heard BARcamp Chicago ( http://barcampchicago.com/ ) is on for 15-16 July at 648 w Randolph. Also note that tomorrow night (6th July) TECHcocktail ( http://www.techcocktail.com/blog/ ) is happening at 935 w Webster (STATE). It looks like its going to be a fun time! Also a new group meeting has been shaping up for regular code jamming or hack sessions. Take a look at: http://techcoffee.infogami.com/ BARcamp is looking to be a good weekend and will be a combined event with the Chicago Linux Users Group meeting. There are close to 70 people expected for BARcamp plus the Linux User community.. So far the agenda looks to have the following in the mix: 1) 48 hour dot com project - a showcase for the RAD development platforms, Chicago tech savvy and entrepreneurial spirit. Friendly competition of RubyOnRails, PHP, Python in building agile user applications.. (see: http://barcampchicago.com/index.php?wiki=The24hrDotCom) 2) Discussions on building scalable high-performance next-gen web applications (see: http://jasonrexilius.com/GloballyDistributedWebCluster.php ) 3) Building a Chicago coworking environment (see: http://coworking.pbwiki.com/ ) 4) Linux install fest and discussions (see: http://luni.org/wiki/index.php/Conference ) The after party will be Sunday night at Rodan on Milwaukee, (see: http://www.rodan.ws/default.html ) We have a few sponsors and many in the community have offered to help bring supplies and equipment, but we are still looking for sponsors as we have to rent the facility and pay for event insurance. We currently have the following companies offering assistance: Brian Schoen of Real Network Solutions http://www.realnets.com/ Dan Ratner of SitterCity.com http://www.sittercity.com/ Sean Johnson of Intentionally Designed http://www.intentionallydesigned.com/ Also looking for any other discussion ideas or projects! Check out the site, reply to the email, give me a call or just show up! We are short on the Java side by the way.. I know all the java people are boring corporate stiffs but.. oh wait, save my language flame warring for the event.. Also we are short Perl peoples... where are the rest of the hackers? At any rate, I am looking forward to seeing you all there and hope everyone had a good 4th! - Jason Rexilius jason at hostedlabs.com 847.208.1000 From daniel.delapava at gmail.com Fri Jul 7 07:23:58 2006 From: daniel.delapava at gmail.com (Daniel Delapava) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 00:23:58 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Alan & Guido -- Children First Message-ID: <44ADEFEE.9060404@gmail.com> http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318 > "The entire presentation (slides and interactive demos) was done as a > Squeak program, although I'm not sure about the details. I believe > that the entire thing was running in a browser plugin -- quite an > amazing feat if you ask me! http://www.squeakland.org has more info > about the plugin." This is Squeak in your browser: http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/1760 After you install the plugin and it works, click FIND in the Navigator bar below to load some example projects. Amazing. Cheers, Daniel From gsaha at imsa.edu Fri Jul 7 17:11:03 2006 From: gsaha at imsa.edu (Gautam Saha) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:11:03 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Need part time/Freelancer for a Zope/Plone site Message-ID: <44AE7987.2080001@imsa.edu> Hi: I was wondering if anyone on this list might be interested for consulting work for a Zope/Plone portal as a part time basis. Can work mostly from remote location, but some on site (Aurora) meetings may be required. Need experience in Zope/Plone2.x/python/CSS/Javascript. Please contact me off list if interested. Have a good day, Gautam From david at graniteweb.com Fri Jul 7 22:35:58 2006 From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 15:35:58 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Now THIS is a practical use of Python Message-ID: <20060707203558.GA27796@wdfs.graniteweb.com> I don't know why I didn't think of this myself... http://scott.weston.id.au/software/pymissile/ -- David Rock david at graniteweb.com From PRobare at chx.com Fri Jul 7 23:30:57 2006 From: PRobare at chx.com (Robare, Phil) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 16:30:57 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Now THIS is a practical use of Python In-Reply-To: <20060707203558.GA27796@wdfs.graniteweb.com> Message-ID: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB772@MX3.chx.com> You can buy your own nerfish missle laucher online at http://www.usbmissilelaunchers.com/ for 30 pounds. Never did I think we would be turning to the Brits for 'defense' technology. -----Original Message----- From: chicago-bounces at python.org [mailto:chicago-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of David Rock Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:36 PM To: chicago at python.org Subject: [Chicago] Now THIS is a practical use of Python I don't know why I didn't think of this myself... http://scott.weston.id.au/software/pymissile/ -- David Rock david at graniteweb.com _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From ken at stox.org Sat Jul 8 00:59:54 2006 From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:59:54 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Now THIS is a practical use of Python In-Reply-To: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB772@MX3.chx.com> References: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB772@MX3.chx.com> Message-ID: <1152313194.92716.6.camel@stox.dyndns.org> On Fri, 2006-07-07 at 16:30 -0500, Robare, Phil wrote: > Never did I think we would be turning to the Brits for 'defense' > technology. You might want to look into where we got jet engine technology to begin with. Over time, we have gotten quite a bit of defense technology from the British. From PRobare at chx.com Sat Jul 8 01:37:41 2006 From: PRobare at chx.com (Robare, Phil) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 18:37:41 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Now THIS is a practical use of Python In-Reply-To: <1152313194.92716.6.camel@stox.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB773@MX3.chx.com> It was a joke, please. More a comment on our nation's priorities and industrial policies than on the technical abilities of others. For the Flash equipped try http://www.truemajority.org/oreos/ Kenneth P. Stox on Friday, July 07, 2006 6:00 PM wrote: > On Fri, 2006-07-07 at 16:30 -0500, Robare, Phil wrote: > > Never did I think we would be turning to the Brits for 'defense' > > technology. > > You might want to look into where we got jet engine technology to begin > with. Over time, we have gotten quite a bit of defense technology from > the British. _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From mtobis at gmail.com Tue Jul 11 02:40:16 2006 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 19:40:16 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] next ChiPy meeting Message-ID: I hear a deafening silence of volunteers. I am willing to start the ball rolling with a talk about Crunchy Frog (a server running on localhost that serves up a python interpreter and doctests in a web page, a service to students) by Andre Roberge, and the somehow possibly related Spiny Norman, (a tool to perform doctests on untrusted codes on remote machines, a service to instructors) which is my own project. Anybody else? Module of the month anyone? mt From PRobare at chx.com Tue Jul 11 03:04:36 2006 From: PRobare at chx.com (Robare, Phil) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 20:04:36 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] next ChiPy meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB779@MX3.chx.com> I'm willing to step up with a quicky talk on the shlex standard module Phil Michael Tobis on Monday, July 10, 2006 7:40 PM wrote: > I hear a deafening silence of volunteers. ... > Anybody else? Module of the month anyone? From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Jul 11 05:42:06 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:42:06 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] next ChiPy meeting In-Reply-To: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB779@MX3.chx.com> References: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB779@MX3.chx.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607102042g566c5e91k21d4c27e376ed408@mail.gmail.com> I'm actually serious about doing 15 minutes on Perl 6. Perl! Chris On 7/10/06, Robare, Phil wrote: > I'm willing to step up with a quicky talk on the shlex standard module > > Phil > > Michael Tobis on Monday, July 10, 2006 7:40 PM wrote: > > I hear a deafening silence of volunteers. > ... > > Anybody else? Module of the month anyone? > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From racter at gmail.com Tue Jul 11 06:23:09 2006 From: racter at gmail.com (jake elliott) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 23:23:09 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? Message-ID: hi folks i have a 13 y/o staying here for a while and i'd like to help him find a more rewarding way to use his time than obssessively replaying every NES/SNES/gamecube game. i found alan gauld's fairly python-centric 'learning to program' online [http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld/] which looks pretty good but may be a little dry -- any other recommendations? i'll be around to help him work through any tutorials. thanks, jake From mtobis at gmail.com Tue Jul 11 06:44:57 2006 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 23:44:57 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I ran a Python newbies' group in the spring and we had a couple of thirteen year olds participating. Looks like I won't be able to start it up again until fall due to various contraints. My thought was to split it into an adult and a teen group, so if your visitor is around in the fall he may want to participate. Meanwhile, if you can jump through the install hoops you may want to look at this: http://rur-ple.sourceforge.net/ and then maybe this: http://pythonchallenge.com mt On 7/10/06, jake elliott wrote: > hi folks > > i have a 13 y/o staying here for a while and i'd like to help him find > a more rewarding way to use his time than obssessively replaying every > NES/SNES/gamecube game. > > i found alan gauld's fairly python-centric 'learning to program' > online [http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld/] which looks > pretty good but may be a little dry -- any other recommendations? > i'll be around to help him work through any tutorials. > > thanks, > jake > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Jul 11 13:55:32 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 06:55:32 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Thursday! Message-ID: <3096c19d0607110455x553b781cn5d96e9f6619cea45@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, We need to build an RSVP list for building security for Thursday's meeting. I set up a Wiki page: http://chipy.org/RSVP Or, if you're super lazy you can email me with the subject line "RSVP Python" Okeedokie? Chris From cbc at unc.edu Tue Jul 11 14:43:13 2006 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:43:13 -0400 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44B39CE1.5060307@unc.edu> jake elliott wrote: > -- any other recommendations? > i'll be around to help him work through any tutorials. For a 13 year old? This!: http://www.handysoftware.com/cpif/ Python with three tracks for kids: video games, turtle graphics, and data processing. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.seacoos.org office: 17-6 Venable Hall phone: (919) 962-4323 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Tue Jul 11 17:37:32 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 10:37:32 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <44B39CE1.5060307@unc.edu> Message-ID: > jake elliott wrote: > i have a 13 y/o staying here for a while and i'd like to help him find > a more rewarding way to use his time than obssessively replaying every > NES/SNES/gamecube game. I know this might be an odd thing to say on a Python list, but you might want to consider pointing your 13 year old towards JavaScript first. Yup, JavaScript. Let me explain. A brief tangent... Although I dabbled with BASIC in DOS as a kid, I remember *really* getting interested in programming back in '88 at age 12 when I first saw HyperCard on an Apple Mac used in a science presentation by a professor at the local college. [I swear my Mom made me go, it wasn't my idea. :-) ] HyperCard has always been hard to categorize, but in this context, it was being used as a "poor man's PowerPoint". My jaw dropped in disbelief when, half-way through his presentation, the presenter noticed a bug with his "next page" button, switched to "edit" mode in HyperCard, opened the source code behind the button, fixed the bug, then continued on with the rest of his presentation. Before I saw that, I never knew software could be changed on-the-fly like that. (Granted, I was only 11 so I was easily amazed then.) I spent the rest of that summer learning HyperCard and its scripting language, HyperTalk, so that I could find out how that professor accomplished such an amazing feat of editing live code in a running application. It wasn't just me that was amazed by HyperCard. It served as inspiration for Tim Berners-Lee's and his colleague, [Robert Cailliau][1], in their original proposal for HTTP and the web, for [Ward Cunningham and his Wiki][2], and for [Brendan Eich][3] when he created [JavaScript][4]. [1]: http://www.bookrags.com/biography-robert-cailliau-wcs/index.html [2]: http://www.artima.com/intv/wiki.html [3]: http://tinyurl.com/m2wu3 [4]: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2001/08/17/goodman.html Do I have a point here? Yes, I think so... :-) The closest thing I've seen that reminds me of the inspiring aspects of HyperCard today is TiddlyWiki -- A JavaScript powered wiki (ironic?) clone that runs self-contained in the web browser. There are many variations, but my favorite version is called [GTD Tiddly Wiki][5] for its look and feel improvements over [the original TiddlyWiki][6]. [5]: http://shared.snapgrid.com/index.html [6]: http://www.tiddlywiki.com/ (A close second in the "gee-whiz that's cool" department is [Squeak][7] and the [Squeak-based Croquet project][8].) [7]: http://www.squeak.org/ [8]: http://www.opencroquet.org/ The interaction of creating, editing, and saving "Tiddlers" in TiddlyWiki is pretty fun and reminds of editing "cards" and "stacks" in HyperCard. With just a web browser, your 13 year old can start using TiddlyWiki for storing virtual "flash cards" for school or just taking notes and keeping a journal. There are still some gaps between what TiddlyWiki provides and what HyperCard provided out-of-the-box... Learning JavaScript would become a logical next step for adding features into TiddlyWiki like drawing and painting capability or simple animations. A fun project for your 13 year old might be to merge this [in-browser painting tool][9] into TiddlyWiki. [9]: http://caimansys.com/painter/ Since JavaScript and HTML are core technologies in many 'real' programming jobs, they'd be useful things to know, but of course, that's not the point. :-) If and when the time comes that your 13 year old wants to do even more "real" stuff with programming, the skills learned with JS and HTML would translate well when doing development in popular web frameworks like Django, TurboGears, or Rails. Anyway, so I guess my real point is this-- I got interested in learning to program as a means to an end in doing cool stuff on the computer screen. HyperTalk was my "gateway drug" into learning the fun of dynamic languages, like today's Perl, Python, Ruby, Squeak, and JavaScript. If you can find out whatever it is your 13 year old considers "cool" for a computer to do, encourage them towards that. Learning a programming language to accomplish those cool things will naturally follow the goal of getting that "cool" thing done. And in my opinion, a lot of that "cool" stuff is taking place in the web browser these days. Not-so-secretly-trying-to-get-someone-to-reinvent-hypercard-so-i-don't-have-to-ly yours, -Jason :-) From mtobis at gmail.com Tue Jul 11 17:59:39 2006 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 10:59:39 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <44B39CE1.5060307@unc.edu> Message-ID: "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." - Edsger Dijkstra The design flaws of PHP and Javascript are not as severe as those of the BASIC circa 1970 to which Dijkstra refers, and they may or may not outweigh the benefits of instant motivation. Still, I have to disagree. Python is intended as a learning language as well as a production language and we seem to agree it is a paragon of language design. Having all three in the same place has unique advantages. Unfortunately, the educational aspects remain somewhat half-baked, but the right thing to do is to keep baking them, rather than steering kids to more awkward and shallower tools. There's active work on this, and there was a conference a few weeks ago that both Alan Kay and BDFL attended which was aimed at merging Python and Squeak. Oh, and by the way, Jason, your wish is granted: http://pythoncard.sourceforge.net/ mt From rcriii at ramsdells.net Tue Jul 11 18:19:12 2006 From: rcriii at ramsdells.net (rcriii at ramsdells.net) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 10:19:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Chicago] [Fwd: FW: python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions?] Message-ID: <23496.12.20.83.70.1152634752.squirrel@mail.npsis.com> >From: chicago-bounces at python.org [mailto:chicago-bounces at python.org] On >Behalf Of Michael Tobis >"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that >have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are >mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." > - Edsger Dijkstra I resemble that remark! From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Tue Jul 11 18:33:19 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 11:33:19 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Michael Tobis" wrote on 07/11/2006 10:59:39 AM: > "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students > that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they > are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." > - Edsger Dijkstra Well, since I did admit to starting with BASIC, feel free to disregard anything else I say. :-) > The design flaws of PHP and Javascript are not as severe as those of > the BASIC circa 1970 to which Dijkstra refers, and they may or may not > outweigh the benefits of instant motivation. Still, I have to > disagree. I think I'll agree and disagree with you. :-) I think the pedagogical tools available for Python are far superior to anything that's been created for JavaScript, if in fact, there *are* any pedagogical tools for JavaScript. :-) So, if the goal is finding a nice, slow-and-steady tutorial or textbook for introducing programming concepts, Python's got the goods in spades. Back to HyperTalk, I had "HyperTalk Programming" by Dan Shafer to guide me as I learned way back when. Most of the 'pre-web-2.0' JavaScript books I've read are too-outdated now to be useful in the 'post-Ajax' world we live in today. And the Ajax/DTML books I've seen might be a bit too technical to be useful as tutorials/intros for novices. On the other hand, even considering its warts, the web client platform is a fun place to be these days. And with MochiKit, the heavily-influenced-by-Python JavaScript library, things are getting better. Useful web stuff can be done with either JavaScript alone or (Python + JavaScript). So it's not an either/or thing. > Python is intended as a learning language as well as a production > language and we seem to agree it is a paragon of language design. > Having all three in the same place has unique advantages. I strongly agree. No arguments here! :-) > Unfortunately, the educational aspects remain somewhat half-baked, but > the right thing to do is to keep baking them, rather than steering > kids to more awkward and shallower tools. One can argue that HyperTalk was equally [half-baked, awkward, and shallow][1]. :-) [1]: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.hypercard/msg/d8a7f58ce7efef63?hl=en& > There's active work on this, > and there was a conference a few weeks ago that both Alan Kay and BDFL > attended which was aimed at merging Python and Squeak. I agree that would be cool. I also hear that [Firefox is merging (so to speak) with Python], too. [2]: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/archives/008865.html > Oh, and by the way, Jason, your wish is > granted: http://pythoncard.sourceforge.net/ Yeah, I've seen PythonCard and have tried it... but it doesn't match HyperCard or TiddlyWiki in ease-of-use, fun-to-play-with-ness, or out-of-the-box utility. I think it's a side effect of PythonCard using wxPython as its GUI toolkit, which is cool, but I think a bit too technical for newbies. But then, again, that's just my opinion. :-) - Jason From jason at hostedlabs.com Tue Jul 11 18:59:50 2006 From: jason at hostedlabs.com (Jason Rexilius) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 11:59:50 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] BARcamp Chicago Update Message-ID: All, So things are shaping up nicely! The Agenda pages are up and the Help page has been updated with what people should bring, what people can help with, and what is being provided. Check it out from the main page: http://barcampchicago.com/ If you are giving a talk, organizing a project, or want to do something in particular, PLEASE UPDATE THE AGENDA PAGE. If you want to chip in for help, check out the Help page and update it with your name next to what you will bring. If you or your company would like to chip in for sponsorship, we are still a few bills short, please email me. Big thanks to the companies and people that are chipping in and sponsoring so far! This has been really encouraging to see how much interest there is in helping build our Chicago tech community! Hope everyones week is going well and look forward to seeing you all there! -jason From david at graniteweb.com Tue Jul 11 19:33:20 2006 From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 12:33:20 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <44B39CE1.5060307@unc.edu> Message-ID: <20060711173320.GC10116@wdfs.graniteweb.com> * Michael Tobis [2006-07-11 10:59]: > "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students > that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they > are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." > - Edsger Dijkstra Would it be better that I had not started at all? -- David Rock david at graniteweb.com From mtobis at gmail.com Tue Jul 11 20:22:06 2006 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:22:06 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <20060711173320.GC10116@wdfs.graniteweb.com> References: <44B39CE1.5060307@unc.edu> <20060711173320.GC10116@wdfs.graniteweb.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/06, David Rock wrote: > Would it be better that I had not started at all? Naw, I think Dijkstra was exaggerating a bit. Now, it might be a different story if you started out with Perl, of course... mt From maney at two14.net Tue Jul 11 22:13:12 2006 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:13:12 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <20060711173320.GC10116@wdfs.graniteweb.com> References: <44B39CE1.5060307@unc.edu> <20060711173320.GC10116@wdfs.graniteweb.com> Message-ID: <20060711201312.GA2245@furrr.two14.net> On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 12:33:20PM -0500, David Rock wrote: > Would it be better that I had not started at all? What an excellent question! :-P I'm not sure what I started with. I guess a case can be made for the imaginary [business, hence decimal] computer whose assembly language was the platform used in that book I somehow bumped into in the library back in the sixties. The first code I wrote that was actually run by a computer, OTOH, was in IITRAN, IIRC; the second class exercise was required to be in FORTRN [as it ought to have been spelled]. I had probably read about Basic, but didn't actually lay fingers on it until the microcomputer revolution, by which time I knew how impoverished a language it was. But I digress... -- To read a book, to think it over, and to write out notes is a useful exercise; a book which will not repay some hard thought is not worth publishing. -- Maria Mitchell From skip at pobox.com Tue Jul 11 22:46:43 2006 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:46:43 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] compiler.walk() help Message-ID: <17588.3635.788856.671645@montanaro.dyndns.org> Does anybody here have a small example of using the compiler.walk() function? The online docs seem fairly incomplete and my simpleminded attempts to get it working have thusfar been unsuccessful: >>> import compiler >>> ast = compiler.parse(open("a.py").read()) >>> ast Module(None, Stmt([Assign([AssName('RED', 'OP_ASSIGN')], Const('red')), Assign([AssName('BLUE', 'OP_ASSIGN')], Const('blue'))])) >>> compiler.walk(ast, compiler.visitor.ExampleASTVisitor, verbose=10) >>> >>> compiler.walk(ast, compiler.visitor.ExampleASTVisitor(), verbose=10) I did manage to get a verbose print the first time I executed this: >>> compiler.walk(ast, compiler.visitor.ExampleASTVisitor(), walker=compiler.visitor.ExampleASTVisitor(), verbose=10) which emitted nice verbose stuff like dispatch Module compiler.ast.Module asList doc None getChildNode getChildren lineno None ... but successive calls just yielded the more electron-conserving: dispatch Module dispatch Stmt dispatch Assign dispatch AssName dispatch Const dispatch Assign dispatch AssName dispatch Const Any examples would be much appreciated. Thx, Skip From maney at two14.net Tue Jul 11 22:50:35 2006 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:50:35 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <44B39CE1.5060307@unc.edu> <20060711173320.GC10116@wdfs.graniteweb.com> Message-ID: <20060711205035.GB2245@furrr.two14.net> On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 01:22:06PM -0500, Michael Tobis wrote: > Now, it might be a different story if you started out with Perl .... That's inconceivable! One has to be an experienced hack with several languages under one's belt before one is prepared for the hodgepodge glory of Perl. I seem to have missed it at the vulnerable stage (I was working on a Xenix/386 box at the time, and if Perl had been ported to that platform's benighted tool chain - based on a version of MS's C compiler - I might have fallen in love with a "better AWK than AWK". But that was not to be...). I suppose something similar might explain my lack of enthusiasm for Rexx, though in that case it may be more that I wasn't recovering from JCL, never having fallen into that pit. -- You arguably have quite a few inalienable rights, but being taken seriously isn't one of them. Neither is being respected. -- Rick Moen From deadwisdom at gmail.com Tue Jul 11 22:56:32 2006 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:56:32 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <44B39CE1.5060307@unc.edu> Message-ID: <694c06d60607111356o19c757a3ya3f06143fae51e02@mail.gmail.com> HyperCard was da-shit. It was absolutely remarkable. I remember making an email application for my highschool (back when it wasn't connected to the internet) so that students and teachers could "email" eachother over the LAN. If you really want to go down this road, I suggest Flash. Flash is a direct evolution of HyperCard, it just adds "layers" to the paradigm. It's very fun, allowing you to interact with objects that you can draw on the screen. It holds your hand at the beginning (like HyperCard did), but allows you to branch out to do whatever you want with a prototype language that is very similar to JavaScript called ActionScript. Really though, one must think of the student. If they are interested in art, and graphics, Flash is perfect. If they are more mathmatically minded, I think Python is a better fit. And if you really want to get them on a rigorous track, C/C++ all the way. On 7/11/06, Jason R Huggins wrote: > A brief tangent... Although I dabbled with BASIC in DOS as a kid, I > remember *really* getting interested in programming back in '88 at age 12 > when I first saw HyperCard on an Apple Mac used in a science presentation > by a professor at the local college. [I swear my Mom made me go, it wasn't > my idea. :-) ] HyperCard has always been hard to categorize, but in this > context, it was being used as a "poor man's PowerPoint". My jaw dropped in > disbelief when, half-way through his presentation, the presenter noticed a > bug with his "next page" button, switched to "edit" mode in HyperCard, > opened the source code behind the button, fixed the bug, then continued on > with the rest of his presentation. Before I saw that, I never knew > software could be changed on-the-fly like that. (Granted, I was only 11 > so I was easily amazed then.) I spent the rest of that summer learning > HyperCard and its scripting language, HyperTalk, so that I could find out > how that professor accomplished such an amazing feat of editing live code > in a running application. From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Wed Jul 12 00:49:04 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:49:04 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <694c06d60607111356o19c757a3ya3f06143fae51e02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Brantley Harris" wrote on 07/11/2006 03:56:32 PM: > Really though, one must think of the student. If they are interested > in art, and graphics, Flash is perfect. If they are more > mathmatically minded, I think Python is a better fit. And if you > really want to get them on a rigorous track, C/C++ all the way. How pragmatic and sensible! :-) This reminds of some blog post I read a while ago that says you can never answer a "which language should I learn?" question without asking what you want to do with it. For many, many fields, though, Python is really a good start. Though the original question was (I think) that Python is assumed and the question is which tutorial to start with. If 13 y/o is into graphics *and* math, I've had lots of fun with the [vpython library][1]. The screenshots don't nearly do it justice. However, for the ultimate in "quick start", you can't get much quicker than trying the [JavaScript shell][2]. On that note, given the existence of the JavaScript shell, the original doc that Jake pointed to is [wrong about JavaScript][3]: """Unfortunately in JavaScript there is no easy way to type the commands in and see them being executed immediately as we have been doing with Python.""" As a Pythonist, I hate to admit it, but Why's [Try Ruby is good for starters][4], too. Ian Bicking demo'd a similar Python-based 'interpreter in the browser' thingy a few months ago at ChiPy. It would be nice if the there was a polished version similar to the above interpreters for newbies to try python in the browser. But I digress :-) [1]: http://www.vpython.org/vpythonprog.htm [2]: http://www.squarefree.com/shell/shell.html [3]: http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld/tutseq1.htm [4]: http://tryruby.hobix.com/ - Jason From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Jul 12 01:49:33 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:49:33 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> Jason R Huggins wrote: > "Brantley Harris" wrote on 07/11/2006 03:56:32 PM: >> Really though, one must think of the student. If they are interested >> in art, and graphics, Flash is perfect. If they are more >> mathmatically minded, I think Python is a better fit. And if you >> really want to get them on a rigorous track, C/C++ all the way. > > How pragmatic and sensible! :-) This reminds of some blog post I read a > while ago that says you can never answer a "which language should I > learn?" question without asking what you want to do with it. For many, > many fields, though, Python is really a good start. Though the original > question was (I think) that Python is assumed and the question is which > tutorial to start with. > > If 13 y/o is into graphics *and* math, I've had lots of fun with the > [vpython library][1]. The screenshots don't nearly do it justice. > > > However, for the ultimate in "quick start", you can't get much quicker > than trying the [JavaScript shell][2]. > > On that note, given the existence of the JavaScript shell, the original > doc that Jake pointed to is [wrong about JavaScript][3]: > """Unfortunately in JavaScript there is no easy way to type the commands > in and see them being executed immediately as we have been doing with > Python.""" > > As a Pythonist, I hate to admit it, but Why's [Try Ruby is good for > starters][4], too. > > Ian Bicking demo'd a similar Python-based 'interpreter in the browser' > thingy a few months ago at ChiPy. It would be nice if the there was a > polished version similar to the above interpreters for newbies to try > python in the browser. But I digress :-) I think "interpreter in the browser" isn't really right. An interpreter that *is* the browser is closer to HyperCard. Javascript is the only such language, though there's still ongoing work on Python in Firefox. With Python you wouldn't get quite the distribution capabilities (because it still wouldn't be runnable over the web, due to security concerns), but it'd be closer. And really an interpreter that is the browser is what is more interesting to me, and what I wanted to experiment with in HTConsole -- the interactive part actually was a distraction, I think. Who was I talking with about HyperTalk with recently? Someone on the train. I blame it on our post-meeting bar venues that I can't remember who. Anyway, I think mixing Javascript with the browser and the DOM, a good/clean Javascript library, and some persistence on the server side (implemented in Python or whatever) could be very interesting indeed. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From mtobis at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 02:05:59 2006 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:05:59 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> References: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: Well if you have opinions about this be sure to show up on Thursday, because this is the sort of thing I'll be talking about. I'm hoping more to start up a conversation than to show off. Specifically: what's the right architecture for an interactive teaching tool? Does it involve the browser? Does it involve multiple languages? Which ones? (I'd prefer 100% Python if it's practical, but maybe it isn't.) mt On 7/11/06, Ian Bicking wrote: > Jason R Huggins wrote: > > "Brantley Harris" wrote on 07/11/2006 03:56:32 PM: > >> Really though, one must think of the student. etc. From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Jul 12 02:06:35 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:06:35 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] compiler.walk() help In-Reply-To: <17588.3635.788856.671645@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <17588.3635.788856.671645@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <44B43D0B.3060401@colorstudy.com> skip at pobox.com wrote: > Does anybody here have a small example of using the compiler.walk() > function? The online docs seem fairly incomplete and my simpleminded > attempts to get it working have thusfar been unsuccessful: Not a great help, but the docutils extractor (experimental, maybe defunct) basically does an AST walk and extracts more useful information from the result. It may be useful to you. But that's all I know at the moment ;) -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From skip at pobox.com Wed Jul 12 02:29:43 2006 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:29:43 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] compiler.walk() help In-Reply-To: <44B43D0B.3060401@colorstudy.com> References: <17588.3635.788856.671645@montanaro.dyndns.org> <44B43D0B.3060401@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <17588.17015.868867.34317@montanaro.dyndns.org> Ian> Not a great help, but the docutils extractor (experimental, maybe Ian> defunct) basically does an AST walk and extracts more useful Ian> information from the result. Thanks. Looks like a well-written example. Skip From brian at planetshwoop.com Wed Jul 12 16:36:56 2006 From: brian at planetshwoop.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 09:36:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <49439.63.73.213.5.1152715016.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> Michael Tobis wrote: > Well if you have opinions about this be sure to show up on Thursday, > because this is the sort of thing I'll be talking about. I'm hoping > more to start up a conversation than to show off. > > Specifically: what's the right architecture for an interactive > teaching tool? Does it involve the browser? Does it involve multiple > languages? Which ones? (I'd prefer 100% Python if it's practical, but > maybe it isn't.) Possibly relevant to this discussion: Python arose from the ashes of ABC, which was, according to Guido, a language used to teach programming to non-programmers. >From c. 1996: "It all started with ABC, a wonderful teaching language that I had helped create in the early eighties. It was an incredibly elegant and powerful language, aimed at non-professional programmers." Obviously the days of Guido working in Amsterdam are long past, but I thought it interesting that the original "itch" he tried to scratch was education, not a better awk or writing a portable operating system in New Jersey. If only Hypercards ran in a browser... brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ From bray at sent.com Wed Jul 12 16:22:32 2006 From: bray at sent.com (bray at sent.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 09:22:32 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. Message-ID: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> This will be our best meeting yet. When ---- Thurs. July 13, 2006. 7pm. Location -------- Performics, downtown Chicago 180 N LaSalle St, Suite 1100, Please RSVP ** There will probably be a pre-meeting at a nearby cafe for early arrivals. Check the mailing list for more. Topics ------ * CrunchyFrog and SpinyNorman (DocTests in educational Python) * shlex * Perl 6 compared to Python About ChiPy ----------- ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs. Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago. Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info. ChiPy website: ChiPy Mailing List: Python website: ---- Forward this on. From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 17:06:14 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:06:14 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> > * Perl 6 compared to Python I'm not comparing anything to anything. I'm showing something to some people. Dangit. On 7/12/06, bray at sent.com wrote: > This will be our best meeting yet. > > When > ---- > > Thurs. July 13, 2006. 7pm. > > > Location > -------- > > Performics, downtown Chicago > > 180 N LaSalle St, Suite 1100, > > Please RSVP > > > ** There will probably be a pre-meeting at a nearby cafe for early > arrivals. Check the mailing list for more. > > > Topics > ------ > > * CrunchyFrog and SpinyNorman (DocTests in educational Python) > * shlex > * Perl 6 compared to Python > > > About ChiPy > ----------- > > ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs. > Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago. > Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational > efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info. > > ChiPy website: > ChiPy Mailing List: > Python website: > > ---- > > Forward this on. > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Wed Jul 12 17:10:33 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:10:33 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <49439.63.73.213.5.1152715016.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> Message-ID: Brian Sobolak wrote on 07/12/2006 09:36:56 AM: > If only Hypercards ran in a browser... Did someone say Web 2.0 startup company idea? :-) -Jason From bray at sent.com Wed Jul 12 17:14:38 2006 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:14:38 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9ED5DD4F-7B1E-41EA-9BDC-06C9676CDDF3@sent.com> On Jul 12, 2006, at 10:06 AM, Chris McAvoy wrote: >> * Perl 6 compared to Python > > I'm not comparing anything to anything. I'm showing something to > some people. > > Dangit. How do you plan on putting this into context? By bringing Perl to a Python user group meeting this automatically must be a comparison or something related to Python in some form. Otherwise, its off topic and should not be included in the meeting. What are you thinking? -- bhr From varmaa at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 17:15:18 2006 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:15:18 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <361b27370607120815w43f94fd8s6405e20044492891@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/06, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > * Perl 6 compared to Python > > I'm not comparing anything to anything. I'm showing something to some people. > > Dangit. More reason to have a Dynamic Languages Users Group, eh? Or maybe a Pragmatic Programmers Users Group... - Atul From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 17:16:39 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:16:39 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <9ED5DD4F-7B1E-41EA-9BDC-06C9676CDDF3@sent.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <9ED5DD4F-7B1E-41EA-9BDC-06C9676CDDF3@sent.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607120816m5963782fs82969beac4d861a1@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/06, Brian Ray wrote: > How do you plan on putting this into context? By bringing Perl to a > Python user group meeting this automatically must be a comparison or > something related to Python in some form. Otherwise, its off topic > and should not be included in the meeting. Hmmm. Okeedokie, I won't present it then. Chris From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Jul 12 17:26:09 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:26:09 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607120816m5963782fs82969beac4d861a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <9ED5DD4F-7B1E-41EA-9BDC-06C9676CDDF3@sent.com> <3096c19d0607120816m5963782fs82969beac4d861a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44B51491.50503@colorstudy.com> Chris McAvoy wrote: >>How do you plan on putting this into context? By bringing Perl to a >>Python user group meeting this automatically must be a comparison or >>something related to Python in some form. Otherwise, its off topic >>and should not be included in the meeting. > > > Hmmm. Okeedokie, I won't present it then. I think it's fine, and Perl 6 has some interesting stuff going on. ChiPy is just a bunch of people getting together once a month, it's not like we have a mission statement or policy or whatever. Ian From bray at sent.com Wed Jul 12 17:28:36 2006 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:28:36 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607120816m5963782fs82969beac4d861a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <9ED5DD4F-7B1E-41EA-9BDC-06C9676CDDF3@sent.com> <3096c19d0607120816m5963782fs82969beac4d861a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DDD1A6C-DDA2-43E8-9293-78A4833D3B85@sent.com> On Jul 12, 2006, at 10:16 AM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > Hmmm. Okeedokie, I won't present it then. I am not trying to discourage you from presenting Perl. Just try putting it into context. Remember the crowds reaction when Guido said, "Perl is not that bad." Are you going for the shock value or do you really want to show us something? I think we should always use the right hammer for a job. In one case I found Perl was a better hammer for a particular task. Although now I can not read what I wrote, the idea is to use the right tool for the job. In fact, this basis is what lead me to Python; I was looking for the right tool for a job. --bhr From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 17:32:36 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:32:36 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <361b27370607120815w43f94fd8s6405e20044492891@mail.gmail.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <361b27370607120815w43f94fd8s6405e20044492891@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607120832k5fd5f970hd344b7a39f9458e5@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/06, Atul Varma wrote: > On 7/12/06, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > * Perl 6 compared to Python > > > > I'm not comparing anything to anything. I'm showing something to some people. > > > > Dangit. > > More reason to have a Dynamic Languages Users Group, eh? Or maybe a > Pragmatic Programmers Users Group... I really like this idea. A handful of us have talked about it off and on. I'm a committed polyglot. I think specific language groups are good thing for advocacy and focused learning, but I'm getting tired of 2 or more meetings per month. Meh. We'll see. Chris From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Jul 12 17:41:25 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:41:25 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607120832k5fd5f970hd344b7a39f9458e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <361b27370607120815w43f94fd8s6405e20044492891@mail.gmail.com> <3096c19d0607120832k5fd5f970hd344b7a39f9458e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44B51825.6010103@colorstudy.com> Chris McAvoy wrote: > On 7/12/06, Atul Varma wrote: > >>On 7/12/06, Chris McAvoy wrote: >> >>>>* Perl 6 compared to Python >>> >>>I'm not comparing anything to anything. I'm showing something to some people. >>> >>>Dangit. >> >>More reason to have a Dynamic Languages Users Group, eh? Or maybe a >>Pragmatic Programmers Users Group... > > > I really like this idea. A handful of us have talked about it off and > on. I'm a committed polyglot. I think specific language groups are > good thing for advocacy and focused learning, but I'm getting tired of > 2 or more meetings per month. I dunno... when there's something novel and interesting in another language, or something novel and interesting implemented in any language, that's interesting. But there's also a lot of plumbing that's interesting only in the right domain; learning about, say, PHP XML processing would bore me to death. DemoCamp seems like an interesting idea (http://barcamp.org/DemoCamp). Or for something more programmery (and less startupy), a lightning talk format. 5-10 minutes of PHP XML processing would only bore me slightly, and I can tolerate that. Ian From varmaa at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 17:42:00 2006 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:42:00 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <361b27370607120842h7b4ab3f4vc5593dcc2d7a28bc@mail.gmail.com> On 7/11/06, Michael Tobis wrote: > Well if you have opinions about this be sure to show up on Thursday, > because this is the sort of thing I'll be talking about. I'm hoping > more to start up a conversation than to show off. > > Specifically: what's the right architecture for an interactive > teaching tool? Does it involve the browser? Does it involve multiple > languages? Which ones? (I'd prefer 100% Python if it's practical, but > maybe it isn't.) Ok, I wasn't planning on coming because I had plans, but this topic is way too interesting to miss... On a side note, I loved Hypercard as well... And find it really interesting that an old app from 1987 is still considered to be superior than anything out there today in a lot of ways. (Speaking of which, did anyone know that Apple didn't stop selling it until March 2004?) I've tried using PythonCard and found it really confusing. I also strongly disagree with the comments on Flash--I thought Flash was a great tool when I first ran into it, and I still like Flash as a concept, but I've found that Macromedia Flash, as a development tool, is very complex and frustrating to use. The software was originally designed as an animation tool and didn't turn into a true software development tool until as late as Flash 5, with the introduction of ActionScript... The fact that the software's interface remained backwards compatible with older versions of Flash means that there are *tons* of ways to go about doing any one thing, many of which lead to dead ends--for instance, the default "button" object is almost entirely useless for most cases, and you'll almost certainly want to make a "movie" instead that you manually program to behave like a button. It's leaps and bounds more complex than the original Hypercard. Personally, I wouldn't consider teaching Flash as a first programming language/development tool. If the student was really interested in it, I'd rather teach them programming first with Python, and then teach them how to use Flash. - Atul From brian at planetshwoop.com Wed Jul 12 18:00:51 2006 From: brian at planetshwoop.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:00:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Chicago] Hypercards (was Re: python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions?) In-Reply-To: <361b27370607120842h7b4ab3f4vc5593dcc2d7a28bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> <361b27370607120842h7b4ab3f4vc5593dcc2d7a28bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41308.63.73.213.5.1152720051.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> Atul Varma wrote: > On 7/11/06, Michael Tobis wrote: >> Well if you have opinions about this be sure to show up on Thursday, >> because this is the sort of thing I'll be talking about. I'm hoping >> more to start up a conversation than to show off. >> >> Specifically: what's the right architecture for an interactive >> teaching tool? Does it involve the browser? Does it involve multiple >> languages? Which ones? (I'd prefer 100% Python if it's practical, but >> maybe it isn't.) > > Ok, I wasn't planning on coming because I had plans, but this topic is > way too interesting to miss... > > On a side note, I loved Hypercard as well... And find it really > interesting that an old app from 1987 is still considered to be > superior than anything out there today in a lot of ways. (Speaking of > which, did anyone know that Apple didn't stop selling it until March > 2004?) When I was working in Hypercard in 1989 (or whenever) never occured to me that I was programming. I was building cool stuff with a computer, and I think that was a huge part of its appeal. And my CS 101 class used a non-Apple product, SuperCard, which is still available, for our first programming project. > I've tried using PythonCard and found it really confusing. Agreed. I could never get it to work, and gave up. It seems with all of the stuff migrating to the web (wikis, spreadsheets, caribou), that some fan of Hypercards back in the day would have tried to do a good recreation of it on the web. [1] brian 1. Which wouldn't be unprecedented: I've read this week (in the WSJ maybe?) that hedge fund managers who loved baseball cards as kids are trying to take over Topps, the candy company that makes them. -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ From ph at malaprop.org Wed Jul 12 18:05:24 2006 From: ph at malaprop.org (Peter Harkins) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:05:24 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> References: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <20060712160524.GV11322@malaprop.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 06:49:33PM -0500, Ian Bicking wrote: > Who was I talking with about HyperTalk with recently? Someone on the > train. It was me. I'm also in the "HyperTalk was my first language" camp, so it'll always have a warm place in my heart. I'll always remember when I had arrays explained to me and I suddenly got them -- that experience is what hooked me on programming. > Anyway, I think mixing Javascript with the browser and the DOM, a > good/clean Javascript library, and some persistence on the server side > (implemented in Python or whatever) could be very interesting indeed. One of the things I'd like about the browser for an introductory environment is its limited set of primitives, but I see enough problems in the complexities of the DOM, reloading, content/style bifurcation and such that I don't agree that it'd be a good environment for beginners. But I'd be very happy to be proved wrong. - -- Peter Harkins - http://push.cx -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: If you don't know what this is, it's OK to ignore it. iD8DBQFEtR3Da6PWv6+ALKoRApXFAJ9diTH8QiRH2Lsjpj4CnG46nYETggCdEugh NUXP6FIEyuTqLg/mIjHHgEA= =Oeap -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 18:07:18 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:07:18 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <44B51825.6010103@colorstudy.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <361b27370607120815w43f94fd8s6405e20044492891@mail.gmail.com> <3096c19d0607120832k5fd5f970hd344b7a39f9458e5@mail.gmail.com> <44B51825.6010103@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607120907s6e62a36j27cf6a0ef0f285ff@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/06, Ian Bicking wrote: > DemoCamp seems like an interesting idea (http://barcamp.org/DemoCamp). > Or for something more programmery (and less startupy), a lightning talk > format. Yeah, that's my only real beef with the BarCamp Chicago concept. I'm not really into starting up my own business. At least not in that context. My head is way more into programming for programming sake...the joy of programming...that sort of thing. DemoCamp seems fun. BarCamp seems fun too, don't get me wrong. I just want to be a nerd this summer, not a hip young business man. Lots of things to think about. My Perl 6 plan is seriously less than seven minutes long. If that. Maybe I'll just talk it up anecdotally. The sum total of what I want to say is, "Perl 6 is actually happening, and you can add to the language if you just ask nice. It's kind of f'ing bonkers in a really good way." Chris From jbalint at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 18:13:41 2006 From: jbalint at gmail.com (Jess Balint) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:13:41 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607120907s6e62a36j27cf6a0ef0f285ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44b5209b.4e077bb8.0bf8.2160@mx.gmail.com> I'm totally in the same camp as you on the Barcamp thing. But why do you get the impression that it's very business oriented? I'm thinking about grabbing a timeslot for some exploratory programming/systems talks. No big presentations or anything, just some interactive (audience asking questions and provoking deeper explanation) talks very similar to lighting talks. Nothing in particular has to be planned and this would be a great time for you to talk more about Perl 6 if you are going. :) (And we will talk about Python of course) -----Original Message----- From: chicago-bounces at python.org [mailto:chicago-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Chris McAvoy Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 11:07 AM To: The Chicago Python Users Group Subject: Re: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. On 7/12/06, Ian Bicking wrote: > DemoCamp seems like an interesting idea (http://barcamp.org/DemoCamp). > Or for something more programmery (and less startupy), a lightning talk > format. Yeah, that's my only real beef with the BarCamp Chicago concept. I'm not really into starting up my own business. At least not in that context. My head is way more into programming for programming sake...the joy of programming...that sort of thing. DemoCamp seems fun. BarCamp seems fun too, don't get me wrong. I just want to be a nerd this summer, not a hip young business man. Lots of things to think about. My Perl 6 plan is seriously less than seven minutes long. If that. Maybe I'll just talk it up anecdotally. The sum total of what I want to say is, "Perl 6 is actually happening, and you can add to the language if you just ask nice. It's kind of f'ing bonkers in a really good way." Chris _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 18:35:54 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:35:54 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <44b5209b.4e077bb8.0bf8.2160@mx.gmail.com> References: <3096c19d0607120907s6e62a36j27cf6a0ef0f285ff@mail.gmail.com> <44b5209b.4e077bb8.0bf8.2160@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607120935o55c89f10vec72d57ecd25a0e6@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/06, Jess Balint wrote: > I'm totally in the same camp as you on the Barcamp thing. But why do you get > the impression that it's very business oriented? I was just looking at their website...http://barcampchicago.com/index.php?wiki=PresentationIdeas Maybe I'm totally off on what they're up to. I thought it was going to be a "start a business in 24 hours" thing. Maybe not? I really don't know. I probably shouldn't make snap judgements or off-hand generalizations. I'm sort of ornery this morning. I do know for sure though that I'm feeling like I want to pull every Chicago users group into a single one night a month entity. That would be awesome. And efficient. Chris From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 18:46:26 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:46:26 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607120935o55c89f10vec72d57ecd25a0e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <3096c19d0607120907s6e62a36j27cf6a0ef0f285ff@mail.gmail.com> <44b5209b.4e077bb8.0bf8.2160@mx.gmail.com> <3096c19d0607120935o55c89f10vec72d57ecd25a0e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607120946x2fe28f22k40a1ad60d9f5fec1@mail.gmail.com> You know what, re-checking out the Barcamp site, I'm totally wrong. I guess I stopped remembering after the 48 hour startup bit. Ignore me. Please. There's going to be a lot of good stuff going on. On 7/12/06, Chris McAvoy wrote: > On 7/12/06, Jess Balint wrote: > > I'm totally in the same camp as you on the Barcamp thing. But why do you get > > the impression that it's very business oriented? > > I was just looking at their > website...http://barcampchicago.com/index.php?wiki=PresentationIdeas > > Maybe I'm totally off on what they're up to. I thought it was going > to be a "start a business in 24 hours" thing. Maybe not? I really > don't know. I probably shouldn't make snap judgements or off-hand > generalizations. I'm sort of ornery this morning. > > I do know for sure though that I'm feeling like I want to pull every > Chicago users group into a single one night a month entity. That > would be awesome. And efficient. > > Chris > From varmaa at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 18:52:48 2006 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:52:48 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <44B51825.6010103@colorstudy.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <361b27370607120815w43f94fd8s6405e20044492891@mail.gmail.com> <3096c19d0607120832k5fd5f970hd344b7a39f9458e5@mail.gmail.com> <44B51825.6010103@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <361b27370607120952s7868c76dk1b66f867a245b5a6@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/06, Ian Bicking wrote: > I dunno... when there's something novel and interesting in another > language, or something novel and interesting implemented in any > language, that's interesting. But there's also a lot of plumbing that's > interesting only in the right domain; learning about, say, PHP XML > processing would bore me to death. Well, I think there would have to be some kind of selectiveness in terms of the talks that were made... PHP XML processing wouldn't be a very good topic for a "Pragmatic Programmers" type group, but talks that are largely language-independent--for instance, a talk on cool ways to use XML and not use XML, or how to start and manage a successful open-source project, or a presentation of some cool new bug-tracking software or SCM tool--or introductory talks on particular languages and why they're interesting (such as Chris' talk on Perl 6, or an introduction to Haskell) would be more what it'd be looking for, personally. - Atul From goodmansond at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 18:57:18 2006 From: goodmansond at gmail.com (DeanG) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:57:18 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Python Functional Programming Tutorial In-Reply-To: <17581.12947.734612.744513@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <3096c19d0607051106g336482d9gecadd9c0acfee8d1@mail.gmail.com> <20060706013830.GE8239@furrr.two14.net> <17581.12947.734612.744513@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: The Frank Willison award was forgotten in 2005. I sent a reminder to Nat and PSF. On 7/6/06, skip at pobox.com wrote: > Later recipients include Fredrik Lundh (2003) and Cameron Laird (2004). I > don't know if one was awarded in 2005. > > Skip > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Wed Jul 12 19:31:33 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:31:33 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607120935o55c89f10vec72d57ecd25a0e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris McAvoy wrote on 07/12/2006 11:35:54 AM: > I do know for sure though that I'm feeling like I want to pull every > Chicago users group into a single one night a month entity. That > would be awesome. And efficient. I kinda/sorta did that... But it's every week (not every month), on Mondays, and early in the morning (not evening). Oh, and there are no presentations, but there's a fair amount of chatting, sharing, and coffee. :-) Okay, so it's not like your idea at all! But, we've had a good mix of Ruby, Python, Perl, and Lispers attend for the past month. Come on by! :-) --> http://techcoffee.infogami.com/ A more generic monthly meetup for all the Chicago users group might be cool, but there's a slippery slope... first we combine dynamic languages, then all languages, then a combined Linux/Mac fans group, before you know it, you're planning the next TECHcocktail or BarCamp. :-) And rarely does creating a new group (or project, language, feed-format, or documentation-syntax) reduce the need and desire for the old ones that were supposed to be replaced. :-) But to be serious, just for a second... Here's a formal proposal: Start putting feelers out to see if there's interest in combining the Ruby, Python, and Perl users group meeting for December or November. It doesn't have to be a permanent change... just this once. Kind of like the SnakesAndRubies event, but with Perl*. Oh, why December/November? Well, I'm overdosing lately on how many tech events are going on this summer in Chicago... We need to remember that December around here can get quite boring, unless we plan accordingly. -Jason From mtobis at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 20:41:29 2006 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 13:41:29 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607120816m5963782fs82969beac4d861a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <9ED5DD4F-7B1E-41EA-9BDC-06C9676CDDF3@sent.com> <3096c19d0607120816m5963782fs82969beac4d861a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Please don't take the language wars too seriously. When I say something like "Perl is wierd" I *don't* mean anything like "anybody who uses Perl is beneath contempt"; I just mean some of the tradeoffs Larry makes seem peculiar to me. I had a Perl 5 job once, and I was not any more contemptible then than I am now. (Just a little wierder, perhaps.) I think Perl 6 is a fine topic for ChiPy. I think Microsoft QBASIC under DOS 2.0 is a fine topic. I think Logo is a fine topic (and is likely to come up). But as a Python group, we have two things in common already: 1) we think computer langages are important and 2) we know some Python. It's the common denominator. If I were presenting FORTRAN 95 to the JUG, I would be saying "this bit is different than in Java", and "this bit is somewhat better than in Java" and "this part is ridiculously worse than in Java". Especially the last part. So Brian has a point. I think as a group we will be mentally comparing Perl 6 with Python 2.x. I don't think Chris needs to do that explicitly but on the other hand I don't want the question to be off limits. I will be disappointed if Chris doesn't present, but on the other hand I will be thinking about the other languages I know when he does. And everyone in the room speaks Python. So I hope nobody will take offense if someone says "that is different in language P from how it is in language P Prime". I also think permission to flame other languages in good humor is part of having a language group, though. I hope nobody takes it too seriously. How about if we aim for a quarterly or semi-annual dynamic languages meetup where we bury the hatchet? Joint Perl/Ruby/Python/PHP meetings? Obvious topics include SQL and DOM and AJAX, for instance. Also, wouldn't it be nice if these languages could interoperate? Then we wouldn't have to invent everything four times. mt From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Jul 12 20:47:26 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 13:47:26 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <20060712160524.GV11322@malaprop.org> References: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> <20060712160524.GV11322@malaprop.org> Message-ID: <44B543BE.4030501@colorstudy.com> Peter Harkins wrote: >>Anyway, I think mixing Javascript with the browser and the DOM, a >>good/clean Javascript library, and some persistence on the server side >>(implemented in Python or whatever) could be very interesting indeed. > > > One of the things I'd like about the browser for an introductory > environment is its limited set of primitives, but I see enough problems > in the complexities of the DOM, reloading, content/style bifurcation and > such that I don't agree that it'd be a good environment for beginners. > But I'd be very happy to be proved wrong. I think of the browser as a medium, more than the complete platform. Just like a screen with pixels is a medium -- there's certain primitive operations, and given (say) pygame you can get access to those operations on a pretty low level, but that's not what you'd introduce someone to. (And even experienced programmers might not spend that much time on that level, though for web programming that seems less true.) So you have some basic elements, and you have operations on them. The elements in a browser are DOM nodes, which are pretty accessible. The actual DOM *methods* aren't that great, but the nodes are workable -- you can see them, fiddle with them, they are pretty powerful and flexible. Someone should then build an environment around that. For instance, imagine you could click a toggle at the top of the screen "edit methods". Once that is toggled on, you click on any DOM element, and a series of methods is shown (methods like onclick). You can add Javascript to attach to that method, and that Javascript will have access to some nice methods. I think it's even easy to add methods to DOM elements, so it could do "this.hide()". Then you untoggle the method editor, the Javascript source disappears (hidden, really; maybe attached to an attribute), and you can interact with the page. And there's some Wiki-ish save (but without Wiki markup, of course, since we're using DOM nodes and not ASCII), where the Javascript and the nodes are all saved together. Ian From varmaa at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 20:52:08 2006 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 13:52:08 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <9ED5DD4F-7B1E-41EA-9BDC-06C9676CDDF3@sent.com> <3096c19d0607120816m5963782fs82969beac4d861a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <361b27370607121152i79d531bfy9118f3fbb50dbc38@mail.gmail.com> I like Michael's explanation and agree with it. So I'm looking forward to Chris' Perl 6 presentation on Thursday. On 7/12/06, Michael Tobis wrote: > Also, > wouldn't it be nice if these languages could interoperate? Then we > wouldn't have to invent everything four times. Isn't that part of what .NET was made for? I'm not sure if IronPython allows you to create .NET assemblies with Python, but it would be cool if all the dynamic languages could interoperate through it. - Atul From ehs at pobox.com Wed Jul 12 20:55:16 2006 From: ehs at pobox.com (Edward Summers) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:55:16 -0400 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Speaking of tools: a friend of mine and I were talking about my predilection towards learning multiple languages and his towards learning one well, and he translated a Chinese saying that amounted to: A drawer full of knives, none of them sharp. While I'm a fan of sharp knives I think there is a real need for good discussion (sans religious bias) about computer languages and environments. This kind of discussion can be found in the blogosphere [1] but I agree that there is a real opportunity for a computer enthusiast group that promotes more varied, intellectually stimulating discussion than what is offered by a language specific group. You know, like an Invisible College [2] for Chicago software developers. Maybe I've just been reading too much Stephenson. I don't even live in Chicago anymore so why do I care? It feels important somehow. //Ed [1] http://blog.ianbicking.org/ruby-python-power.html [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Society From mtobis at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 21:06:25 2006 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:06:25 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <44B543BE.4030501@colorstudy.com> References: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> <20060712160524.GV11322@malaprop.org> <44B543BE.4030501@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: Yes! Exactly! That's the environment we need. However, the question is whether the browser buys you enough to be worth the hassle. See, I'd like to expose some subset of Python to the user, not some subset of Javascript. SImple code generation tricks may suffice here. This means the environment has Javascript (in that Ajaxy way) but at least the beginner My intended audience is not the same as the intended audience most edupython projects are aimed at. Javascript is not a platform for science. I have curriculum other than programming that I want to deliver, using modest amounts of programming as a medium of expression and a tool. I could do this with code generation, I suppose, but that's an extra layer of complexity. Also, I'm not a full-time programmer and I already have to cope with three languages on a regular basis, so as a developer of content, learning enough Javascript is a serious hurdle for me and other science and engineering educators. So what does targetting the browser as the user platform buy me, given that my desire is, at least in part, not so much to teach programming concepts as to teach something else and use Python. mt From pfein at pobox.com Wed Jul 12 21:07:31 2006 From: pfein at pobox.com (Peter Fein) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:07:31 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120816m5963782fs82969beac4d861a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200607121407.31673.pfein@pobox.com> On Wednesday 12 July 2006 01:41 pm, Michael Tobis wrote: > wouldn't it be nice if these languages could interoperate? Then we > wouldn't have to invent everything four times. Interoperability would reduce the size of the market for programmers significantly; I'm not sure that's in our interest. ;) -- Peter Fein pfein at pobox.com 773-575-0694 Jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/ irc://irc.freenode.net/#chipy From PRobare at chx.com Wed Jul 12 21:23:55 2006 From: PRobare at chx.com (Robare, Phil) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:23:55 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB77B@MX3.chx.com> Edward Summers wrote on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 1:55 PM: > Speaking of tools: a friend of mine and I were talking about my > predilection towards learning multiple languages and his towards > learning one well, and he translated a Chinese saying that amounted to: > > A drawer full of knives, none of them sharp. > But for every clich? there is an equal an opposite clich?: "When all you have is a hammer everthing looks like a nail." ============================= My analogy of the good development environment has always been the traditional blacksmith's shop where the walls are filled with a variety of tools for special uses. Some of them purchased, some inherited and many built for a given job and kept to save the work of recreating them if another job of the same sort comes along. At one time I thought that if I could learn Fortran well enough I could stay with it forever. Then I went to grad school and had to build off a base that my professor had built using PL/I. It was a shock to the system to start thinking in block structured terms when I had been glorying in the anarchy of Fortran IV. Languages are ways of thinking about ideas for problem expression/solution with computers. Python is very good at letting us think about many of the currently important ideas. Someday there will be ideas that cannot be expressed well in it. But the ideas are what are important. So bring on Perl 6. What ideas have been brought into it that were not thought of when Perl 5 came out? Can we express them easily in Python or is a new PEP needed? The only timeless language is Lisp where any new idea get parentheses wrapped around it and the lispers point and say "Look, it was in there all along." Phil From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Jul 12 21:39:51 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:39:51 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <44B4390D.7080701@colorstudy.com> <20060712160524.GV11322@malaprop.org> <44B543BE.4030501@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <44B55007.6090205@colorstudy.com> Michael Tobis wrote: > Yes! Exactly! That's the environment we need. > > However, the question is whether the browser buys you enough to be > worth the hassle. It buys you sharing (potentially), which is definitely worth the hassle. Of course, *Python* isn't so good for that because it doesn't have the security model of Javascript, so Python in the browser doesn't currently give you very good sharing. > See, I'd like to expose some subset of Python to the user, not some > subset of Javascript. SImple code generation tricks may suffice here. > This means the environment has Javascript (in that Ajaxy way) but at > least the beginner Debugging will be a pain, but maybe with pyjamas or pypy's Javascript backend you could do it. Javascript isn't that fun to debug anyway. Or something like HTConsole uses the browser as a rendering medium, not as an execution medium, and so it kind of gives you Python in the browser; but you lose the security in the process. > My intended audience is not the same as the intended audience most > edupython projects are aimed at. Javascript is not a platform for > science. I have curriculum other than programming that I want to > deliver, using modest amounts of programming as a medium of expression > and a tool. > > I could do this with code generation, I suppose, but that's an extra > layer of complexity. Also, I'm not a full-time programmer and I > already have to cope with three languages on a regular basis, so as a > developer of content, learning enough Javascript is a serious hurdle > for me and other science and engineering educators. > > So what does targetting the browser as the user platform buy me, given > that my desire is, at least in part, not so much to teach programming > concepts as to teach something else and use Python. Interactive curriculum development seems to be the point of Logo Wiki (http://logowiki.net/ -- which has been talked about in a parallel discussion on edu-sig: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-July/006671.html) and it seems like Crunchy Frog has some similar motivations. Programming can be a medium in itself, a very explicit way of expressing relationships and algorithms. As such, "scientific computing" is not necessarily the only use for programming in teaching science. For finite element analysis, sure, but for explaining something like Newtonian physics, or providing richer or explorable frontends to simulation systems, you don't need traditional scientific computing environments. OTOH, it's not entirely clear what the advantage of embedded programming is over plain static website creation (like a normal wiki), so I suppose that would have to be identified in some fashion. HTSQL might be of some interest here: http://htsql.org/ -- since you can't just put a database on the web, and yet databases are really interesting things to interact with, and that's part of what it's intended for. Really, databases are more interesting than graphics (2D or 3D), and much of what people describe using HyperCard for is actually primitive databases. I haven't heard anyone mention graphics (beyond the static graphics the web already does well with). -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Wed Jul 12 21:46:05 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:46:05 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Tobis wrote on 07/12/2006 02:06:25 PM: > However, the question is whether the browser buys you enough to be > worth the hassle. It all depends on what you want to do. For client-side GUI development, I think HTML+JavaScript+Firefox(+-Python on the server) is a great way for quickly building prototypes. But if you're not doing GUI dev, Python by itself, via the interactive prompt, is golden. > My intended audience is not the same as the intended audience most > edupython projects are aimed at. Javascript is not a platform for > science. Weird science, perhaps? :-) > So what does targetting the browser as the user platform buy me, As a I kinda said above, it probably doesn't buy you anything if what the browser is selling isn't what you want to buy. > ... given that my desire is, at least in part, not so much to > teach programming concepts as to teach something else and use Python. Right tool for the job wins again. Luckily, it's Python. :-) That's the point of this thread I think. Going back to this mythical 13 "yo" that is the topic of this thread, if 13 yo wants to do "webish" stuff or even just wants to learn some basic programming concepts like statement execution, assignment, loops and conditionals, a browser+JavaScript tutorial is a quick win. If 13 yo wants to write a game or a Sudoku puzzle solver, then Python's is probably a better environment than JavaScript. If they're into NES (13 yo's current hobby, I believe), they'd download an NES emulator and start hacking that in whatever language it's written in (C/Assembler?). So in this case, the right tool for the job is whatever will keep 13 "yo"'s interest the longest. The right tool for you is finding a 'frictionless' language that can convey the concepts you want to express. And I've seen many projects (like 'vpython') where Python is the preferred tool for teaching basic science concepts. - Jason From deadwisdom at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 21:52:52 2006 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:52:52 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <49439.63.73.213.5.1152715016.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> Message-ID: <694c06d60607121252q302bf3e8m285c24d9d80a7ed2@mail.gmail.com> I've already got this most-of-the-way designed in my head. I was gonna open source it, and then make a development tool that was sold. On 7/12/06, Jason R Huggins wrote: > Brian Sobolak wrote on 07/12/2006 09:36:56 AM: > > If only Hypercards ran in a browser... > > Did someone say Web 2.0 startup company idea? :-) > > -Jason > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Wed Jul 12 22:00:57 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:00:57 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB77B@MX3.chx.com> Message-ID: Phil Robare wrote on 07/12/2006 02:23:55 PM: > So bring on Perl 6. What ideas have been brought into it that were > not thought of when Perl 5 came out? Can we express them easily in > Python or is a new PEP needed? That's the best reason I've seen yet to have Perl 6 presented at ChiPy. I currently am stumped on how to cleanly replicate the elegance of Ruby's blocks in Python. And I'm not alone in thinking about that... The general confusion in the Python community about Ruby's use of blocks has lead to lots of discussion, [a PEP][1] or [two][2], and some useful comments on [Why's blog][3]. [1]: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0340/ [2]: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0343/ [3]: http://redhanded.hobix.com/inspect/holyRedSnakes.html > The only timeless language is Lisp > where any new idea get parentheses wrapped around it and the lispers > point and say "Look, it was in there all along." Classic! I think you just earned yourself a spot on the [quote wall of fame][4]! :-) [4]: http://lispers.org/ - Jason From mtobis at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 22:23:33 2006 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:23:33 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <694c06d60607121252q302bf3e8m285c24d9d80a7ed2@mail.gmail.com> References: <49439.63.73.213.5.1152715016.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> <694c06d60607121252q302bf3e8m285c24d9d80a7ed2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I added the following to the BarCAMP page at http://barcampchicago.com/index.php?action=edit&wiki=ProjectsPage There's a lot of interest in community development of not just interactive but programmable educational media (see the edupython and chipy lists). The idea is to have a set of shared programmable widgets and a shared environment in which to get them to interact. This could be used to teach programming or other quantitative topics. Inspirations include Hypercard, Logo, Squeak and Croquet; it would be nice to get something like this included in edubuntu. Contact mtobis at gmail aka this guy: http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~tobis/mt.png if interested mt From jbalint at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 22:28:25 2006 From: jbalint at gmail.com (Jess Balint) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:28:25 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <44b55c4b.597d4db3.75d1.4ab9@mx.gmail.com> Sounds cool. I'm really interested in Squeak at the moment. Here's the non-edit link for that page: http://barcampchicago.com/index.php?wiki=ProjectsPage Should we go ahead and add this to the schedule? The next spot seems to be 7PM Sat. -----Original Message----- From: chicago-bounces at python.org [mailto:chicago-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Michael Tobis Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 3:24 PM To: The Chicago Python Users Group Subject: Re: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? I added the following to the BarCAMP page at http://barcampchicago.com/index.php?action=edit&wiki=ProjectsPage There's a lot of interest in community development of not just interactive but programmable educational media (see the edupython and chipy lists). The idea is to have a set of shared programmable widgets and a shared environment in which to get them to interact. This could be used to teach programming or other quantitative topics. Inspirations include Hypercard, Logo, Squeak and Croquet; it would be nice to get something like this included in edubuntu. Contact mtobis at gmail aka this guy: http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~tobis/mt.png if interested mt _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From mtobis at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 22:41:52 2006 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:41:52 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <44b55c4b.597d4db3.75d1.4ab9@mx.gmail.com> References: <44b55c4b.597d4db3.75d1.4ab9@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: OK by me; the 7 PM souds great! mt On 7/12/06, Jess Balint wrote: > Sounds cool. I'm really interested in Squeak at the moment. Here's the > non-edit link for that page: > > http://barcampchicago.com/index.php?wiki=ProjectsPage > > Should we go ahead and add this to the schedule? The next spot seems to be > 7PM Sat. > > -----Original Message----- > From: chicago-bounces at python.org [mailto:chicago-bounces at python.org] On > Behalf Of Michael Tobis > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 3:24 PM > To: The Chicago Python Users Group > Subject: Re: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? > > I added the following to the BarCAMP page at > > http://barcampchicago.com/index.php?action=edit&wiki=ProjectsPage > > There's a lot of interest in community development of not just > interactive but programmable educational media (see the edupython and > chipy lists). The idea is to have a set of shared programmable widgets > and a shared environment in which to get them to interact. This could > be used to teach programming or other quantitative topics. > Inspirations include Hypercard, Logo, Squeak and Croquet; it would be > nice to get something like this included in edubuntu. > > Contact mtobis at gmail aka this guy: > http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~tobis/mt.png if interested > > mt > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From jason at multiply.org Wed Jul 12 22:11:41 2006 From: jason at multiply.org (jason gessner) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:11:41 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44B5577D.3000401@multiply.org> Chris McAvoy wrote: >> * Perl 6 compared to Python >> > > I'm not comparing anything to anything. I'm showing something to some people. > obviously, because that would make you all super sad! -jason From ph at malaprop.org Wed Jul 12 22:16:22 2006 From: ph at malaprop.org (Peter Harkins) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:16:22 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060712201622.GY11322@malaprop.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 02:55:16PM -0400, Edward Summers wrote: > Speaking of tools: a friend of mine and I were talking about my > predilection towards learning multiple languages and his towards > learning one well, and he translated a Chinese saying that amounted to: > > A drawer full of knives, none of them sharp. Sounds like "jack of all trades, master of none" and just as silly. Learn everything and think critically, what you learn in one endeavor teaches you about every endeavor. > You know, like an Invisible College [2] for Chicago software > developers. Maybe I've just been reading too much Stephenson. I don't > even live in Chicago anymore so why do I care? Invisible College? What we *really* need is Wizard School: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/07/wizard-school.html And I'm +1 on hearing about Perl 6. - -- Peter Harkins - http://push.cx -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: If you don't know what this is, it's OK to ignore it. iD8DBQFEtViTa6PWv6+ALKoRAnGLAJwO5zHACMZrzQCruHbJNCYSc6/B0QCfXjlA qRVdMcs2+FYK99OPqFt38/Q= =A6Ni -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 00:35:44 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:35:44 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <44B5577D.3000401@multiply.org> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <44B5577D.3000401@multiply.org> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607121535h4551f076o8a029a1d0a6ef6f2@mail.gmail.com> Eeep. Now my presentation is going to be all anticipated. This is seriously going to be a let down to anyone that's like "what can we take from Perl 6?" Seriously, I don't know a damn thing about Perl 6 as a language. I'm trying to learn it. My presentation is more about entry points to learning it, as it's a wildly moving target right now. It's also a wildly different model (to my knowledge) of how a language is build. It's pretty interesting stuff. On the one hand, I never want this particular method used to push Python forward. So...yeah...this presentation is not going to live up to the hype. Chris From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Jul 13 01:24:55 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 18:24:55 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607121535h4551f076o8a029a1d0a6ef6f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607120806u13f59449p874b6063e42da39f@mail.gmail.com> <44B5577D.3000401@multiply.org> <3096c19d0607121535h4551f076o8a029a1d0a6ef6f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44B584C7.5090905@colorstudy.com> Chris McAvoy wrote: > Eeep. Now my presentation is going to be all anticipated. This is > seriously going to be a let down to anyone that's like "what can we > take from Perl 6?" In case you are wondering, Guido has already said that Python 3k will not have unicode operators, unlike Perl 6. So we won't be able to say if a ? b: a = a ? x And there's so many more interesting operators! ? (is subset of), and I think ? is really the same in meaning as the "is" operator. And ? ("very much greater than") would be kind of fun. I notice that Unicode also has Roman Numeral literals, so you can have unambiguous integers represented as such. Oh, and can you embed MathML in Perl 6? That would be extra awesome. Oh, and ? as an alias for "del". And ? for "const" (which we don't have in Python, but clearly should add). And ? for pickle.dumps, ? for time.time, ? for raise, ? for warning.warn, ? for random.random... we can't use it, but Perl should add ? as an alias for "bless"; there's probably other denominations that could be supported as well, but I'm not as familiar. ? could be interesting as a non-deterministic prefix operator. It's not really appropriate for Python, but Perl should really allow T:F?C as an alternate spelling for C?T:F (does Perl have C?T:F?). And of course when you want to say: print '' You can't really say it as you'd like, because you have to quote the ''s. Which is why European-style quotes should also work: print ?? And I have no idea what ? is for, but it seems like a cool operator. And of course Smalltalk-style assignment: x ? y Which is really just a lead in to: x ? y Or maybe: x ? y And I don't what either of those would mean, but clearly they should mean *something* in Perl 6. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Jul 13 02:39:45 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 19:39:45 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <49439.63.73.213.5.1152715016.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> <694c06d60607121252q302bf3e8m285c24d9d80a7ed2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44B59651.8070905@colorstudy.com> Michael Tobis wrote: > I added the following to the BarCAMP page at > > http://barcampchicago.com/index.php?action=edit&wiki=ProjectsPage > > There's a lot of interest in community development of not just > interactive but programmable educational media (see the edupython and > chipy lists). The idea is to have a set of shared programmable widgets > and a shared environment in which to get them to interact. This could > be used to teach programming or other quantitative topics. > Inspirations include Hypercard, Logo, Squeak and Croquet; it would be > nice to get something like this included in edubuntu. > > Contact mtobis at gmail aka this guy: > http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~tobis/mt.png if interested So who is planning to do BarCamp? (Note: it's this weekend, Saturday noon to Sunday 8pm) Who is planning to camp out? Who's ready to play programming drinking games? I'm feeling a real itch to try out this DOM-based HyperCard environment. Anyone want to hack on that? I feel like it's at the right stage for wild experimentation, rather than thoughtful and well-planned implementation. Persistence? http://mochikit.com/doc/html/MochiKit/DOM.html#fn-tohtml plus a really simply wiki-ish backend. Implement some functions to load and save bits and pieces too. E.g., a search form: name = $('search').value; pieces = remote('baseballCards').search(name); $('results').clear() // This is where Javascript hurts my soul... for (i=0; i
Pete Rose
The backend is just basically a simple file store, which applies some wrappers at appropriate times, and has some methods like GET, PUT, searching, and perhaps some others. Damn... I'm aching to do this right now... I might at least implement the server side to start, just as a dumb file-based system. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 03:19:01 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:19:01 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <44B59651.8070905@colorstudy.com> References: <49439.63.73.213.5.1152715016.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> <694c06d60607121252q302bf3e8m285c24d9d80a7ed2@mail.gmail.com> <44B59651.8070905@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607121819g40fdec30ud9340775aa4251b@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/06, Ian Bicking wrote: > So who is planning to do BarCamp? I decided this afternoon to go Saturday for a while. I have an improv show Saturday night, so I can't drink (too much) and have to jet around 8 or so. I don't know what I plan on working on. Maybe Perl 6. I wouldn't mind learning Haskell. There's a few other projects kicking around in the noggin. We'll see. Chris From racter at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 03:56:20 2006 From: racter at gmail.com (jake elliott) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:56:20 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607121819g40fdec30ud9340775aa4251b@mail.gmail.com> References: <49439.63.73.213.5.1152715016.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> <694c06d60607121252q302bf3e8m285c24d9d80a7ed2@mail.gmail.com> <44B59651.8070905@colorstudy.com> <3096c19d0607121819g40fdec30ud9340775aa4251b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/12/06, Ian Bicking wrote: > So who is planning to do BarCamp? i'll be there. criticalartware will do a short presentation and discussion on sunday called "Sunday Service for the Distribution Religion - Hystories of Open Collaboration in Chicago." xoxy, jake From tcp at uchicago.edu Thu Jul 13 06:51:40 2006 From: tcp at uchicago.edu (Ted Pollari) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 23:51:40 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] BarCamp (was: Re: python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions?) In-Reply-To: <44B59651.8070905@colorstudy.com> References: <49439.63.73.213.5.1152715016.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> <694c06d60607121252q302bf3e8m285c24d9d80a7ed2@mail.gmail.com> <44B59651.8070905@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <0EA05ACC-5ECE-4993-B111-3BC6F9E57832@uchicago.edu> On Jul 12, 2006, at 7:39 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > So who is planning to do BarCamp? (Note: it's this weekend, Saturday > noon to Sunday 8pm) Who is planning to camp out? Who's ready to play > programming drinking games? I'm considering it, though looking at the space: http:// barcampchicago.com/files/venue_inside2.jpg and then the length of the list of people who say they /will/ be attending: http:// barcampchicago.com/index.php?wiki=AttendeeList I can't help but think that's going to be one packed venue... So, I guess I may show for the start of it or sometime on Sunday and make my plans from there... -ted From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Jul 13 07:36:15 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 00:36:15 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] BarCamp In-Reply-To: <0EA05ACC-5ECE-4993-B111-3BC6F9E57832@uchicago.edu> References: <49439.63.73.213.5.1152715016.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> <694c06d60607121252q302bf3e8m285c24d9d80a7ed2@mail.gmail.com> <44B59651.8070905@colorstudy.com> <0EA05ACC-5ECE-4993-B111-3BC6F9E57832@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <44B5DBCF.9070907@colorstudy.com> Ted Pollari wrote: > On Jul 12, 2006, at 7:39 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > >> So who is planning to do BarCamp? (Note: it's this weekend, Saturday >> noon to Sunday 8pm) Who is planning to camp out? Who's ready to play >> programming drinking games? > > > I'm considering it, though looking at the space: http:// > barcampchicago.com/files/venue_inside2.jpg and then the length of > the list of people who say they /will/ be attending: http:// > barcampchicago.com/index.php?wiki=AttendeeList I can't help but > think that's going to be one packed venue... So, I guess I may show > for the start of it or sometime on Sunday and make my plans from > there... I think that list is from before it was even announced; for instance, I put my name on the list before then. So it may not have quite that many people, though you never know. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From esinclai at pobox.com Thu Jul 13 13:20:44 2006 From: esinclai at pobox.com (Eric Sinclair) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 06:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] python intro for 13 yo -- suggestions? In-Reply-To: <44B59651.8070905@colorstudy.com> References: <49439.63.73.213.5.1152715016.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> <694c06d60607121252q302bf3e8m285c24d9d80a7ed2@mail.gmail.com> <44B59651.8070905@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2006, at 7:39 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > So who is planning to do BarCamp? (Note: it's this weekend, Saturday > noon to Sunday 8pm) Who is planning to camp out? Who's ready to play > programming drinking games? I've been planning to drop in, though I haven't yet sorted out when or for which - I can't make the full weekend, though. -Eric -- esinclai at pobox.com aim/skype: esinclai http://www.kittyjoyce.com/eric/log/ jabber: esinclai at gmail.com -- esinclai at pobox.com aim/skype: esinclai http://www.kittyjoyce.com/eric/log/ jabber: esinclai at gmail.com From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Thu Jul 13 14:46:37 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 07:46:37 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <44B584C7.5090905@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: Ian Bicking wrote on 07/12/2006 06:24:55 PM: > Chris McAvoy wrote: > > Eeep. Now my presentation is going to be all anticipated. This is > > seriously going to be a let down to anyone that's like "what can we > > take from Perl 6?" Well, didn't someone say in the announcement that this was going to be the best meeting ever? :-) > In case you are wondering, Guido has already said that Python 3k will > not have unicode operators, unlike Perl 6. So we won't be able to say > > if a ? b: > a = a ? x One reason Guido might have said that (pure conjecture) is that most of the characters you used in your email (except for the above example) showed up as square boxes in my email client (Notes), and in IE. I had to load the ChiPy archive in Firefox to see the characters you were talking about. Of course, I probably need to change some default system setting to make this problem disappear (and the characters you used *appear*.) But Perl programmers of the future will need smart editors that understand unicode all the way down... Not a problem per se, we Pythoners tell people to not use lame text editors (like MS Notepad) to make it easier in dealing with Python's sig. whitespace. This sounds similar to the discussion of the Atom Publishing Protocol, too. One big argument *against* the use of PUT & DELETE in the protocol was that most HTTP libraries and web browsers didn't support those methods as well as GET & POST. Backwards compatibility issues are always a thorny subject. Also, if Perl supports unicode characters as core statement operators, and Python doesn't... this might be setting up a nice little "notation war" in the lines of Newton vs Leibniz in the Calculus Wars. ( http://tinyurl.com/lkvd4). Python is all about readability, but Perl 6's creative use of unicode (and/or MathML) might actually make it *more* readable than the equivalent Python code. And *that* just breaks my brain to even contemplate. Of course, if we start a Python vs Perl war over unicode notation in source code, that might actually be fun and be noteworthy centuries later (like Newton vs Leibniz)... So, let's put on a language war! (Chris, see you tonight!) :-) - Jason From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Thu Jul 13 15:19:54 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:19:54 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] HyperCard @ BarCamp or TECHcoffee? [used to be about some "13 yo"] In-Reply-To: <44B59651.8070905@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: Ian Bicking wrote on 07/12/2006 07:39:45 PM: > I'm feeling a real itch to try out this DOM-based HyperCard environment. > Anyone want to hack on that? I feel like it's at the right stage for > wild experimentation, rather than thoughtful and well-planned > implementation. Yes! Though I can't do BarCamp this weekend. :-( Hey, if the interest is there, I don't mind if TECHcoffee (every Monday morning at 6 a.m.!) becomes a "HyperCard in the DOM" sprint/hackfest each week. In case it can't get written in one day via BarCamp, having a weekly sprint at TECHcoffee might move things along quite nicely. :-) I think a good starting point is trying to create a "mash up" of [GTDTiddlyWiki][1] and [Canvas Painter][2], with the goal of creating something that looks like [this][3], but more "web-2.0-ish" (aka "rounded corners"), of course. :-) [1]: http://shared.snapgrid.com/index.html [2]: http://caimansys.com/painter/ [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hypercard.png And if you're interested in recreating the HyperTalk language, too, here's some light reading: * http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pane/thesis/ * http://www.sensetalk.com/st/index.html * http://www.redstonesoftware.com/Documentation/SenseTalk%20Reference.pdf * http://www.jaedworks.com/hypercard/scripts/hypertalk-bnf.html * http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/2006-May/000784.html - Jason "a demagogue for hypercard" Huggins P.S. Factoid: Did you know the 'index pointer cursor' used in all web browsers when you hover over links is taken directly from HyperCard. :-) From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 15:57:52 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:57:52 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] The Rudolph Hering Society Message-ID: <3096c19d0607130657s1a64d4fdu1d20745bfdd5b8de@mail.gmail.com> Announcing the creation of *The Rudolph Hering Society* ======================================================= Named for the man that hacked the Chicago River, the RHS preserves the legacy of this great engineer through the open discussion of technology that scares the squares. Programming, development methodologies, testing paradigms, continuous integration, electronics, Radio Shack, bottle rockets, and bread baking are all open topics on the lively RHS mailing list. How do I become a member? ------------------------- You already are. Just join the mailing list to start talking http://lists.rudolphheringsociety.org/listinfo.cgi/river-rudolphheringsociety.org Do we have meetings? -------------------- Sure. Do we have a website? --------------------- Sort of, we have a wiki at http://rudolphheringsociety.org Do we have an irc channel? -------------------------- Sort of, #hering on irc.freenode.net It's not really "formal" yet. Do I have to live in Chicago to join? ------------------------------------- Hell no. Will we have buttons, t-shirts, and those funny little badges for my blog? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hell yes. Wait, this really has nothing to do with Rudolph Hering, you're just using his name as a quirky title to your silly club. ---------------- Says you. Project number one at the RHS is to research Mr. Hering and create a fitting wikipedia page for the man. The RHS, in addition to being a silly club, is committed to preserving the legacy of the man whose feats make you go, "What? How'd he do that?" What's this really about? ------------------------- This really smart guy named Ed Summers wrote this: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/2006-July/000983.html yesterday, and it got me thinking that we really need a group that has no allegiances to any one language, platform, or hobby. What we need is a society of like minded individualists who think that technology is about more than what you can get paid for. Sure, we all like getting paid to do what we do, but chances are we'd still be doing it if we didn't get paid. Would Rudolph have reversed the flow of the Chicago River had he not been paid? Probably not. Quit being a nitpicker. Do we have a headquarters? -------------------------- Yes, it's a mysterious building somewhere on the northwest side of Chicago. Who is getting this email? -------------------------- The first burst is going to chipy, chirb, chicago.pm, and luni. Please pass this on. This is an open society...we like Java, .NET, Fortran, and white bread. From andrew at humanized.com Thu Jul 13 16:08:24 2006 From: andrew at humanized.com (Andrew Wilson) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:08:24 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] PyPy? Message-ID: Hey, everyone, Based on a comment dropped into one of Ian's recent emails to the list, I thought I'd start this thread and see where it goes. I've been following, off an on, pypy (http://codespeak.net/*pypy*/) and stackless python (http://www.stackless.com) recently. For those who don't know, PyPy is an attempt to implement a Python interpreter and compiler using Python as the source language. Initially, I thought this was just a cool, fun project, but then I found out that PyPy will not have the Global Interpreter Lock, and that it will implement the Stackless libraries, and will in general be wierd and cool. But Ian dropped a comment about "using PyPy's javascript backend" which made me think that PyPy is possibly even cooler than I thought. Ian, what exactly did you mean by that? I *think* I caught that PyPy is attempting to separate the interpreter implementation from the language translation problem, which implies to me that PyPy could be "compiled" into Javascript...but at about that point, I get lost. Just curious, -- Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20060713/8ad569fb/attachment.html From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Thu Jul 13 16:10:58 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:10:58 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] The Rudolph Hering Society In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607130657s1a64d4fdu1d20745bfdd5b8de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris, You are a brilliant man! Right time. Right place. And just the man to pull it off. :-) - Jason From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Jul 13 16:15:00 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:15:00 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] PyPy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44B65564.3090204@colorstudy.com> Andrew Wilson wrote: > But Ian dropped a comment about "using PyPy's javascript backend" which > made me think that PyPy is possibly even cooler than I thought. Ian, > what exactly did you mean by that? I *think* I caught that PyPy is > attempting to separate the interpreter implementation from the language > translation problem, which implies to me that PyPy could be "compiled" > into Javascript...but at about that point, I get lost. PyPy can translate/compile Python into different backends. One is LLVM, a really light VM. Another planned is the JVM. One of the more experimental things to compile to is Javascript (but unlike the JVM, it actually exists right now). I think there might even be a Summer of Code project to translate Python to Common Lisp. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 16:15:12 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:15:12 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] The Rudolph Hering Society In-Reply-To: References: <3096c19d0607130657s1a64d4fdu1d20745bfdd5b8de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607130715m6d707a34x8418964355081e69@mail.gmail.com> Thanks...I'm all giggly over the name. My wife thought of it last night. On 7/13/06, Jason R Huggins wrote: > Chris, > > You are a brilliant man! Right time. Right place. And just the man to pull > it off. :-) > > - Jason > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 16:18:55 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:18:55 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] PyPy? In-Reply-To: <44B65564.3090204@colorstudy.com> References: <44B65564.3090204@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607130718v5eba9a0bh1df05f9a07196a4d@mail.gmail.com> Audrey Tang, the writer of PUGS (Haskell implementation of Perl6), had 30 seconds to declare a prediction of the future at YAPC (they asked a bunch of other folks to do the same thing, including Larry Wall). Her prediction (I think, I could be wrong) was that Javascript will be the defacto compiled to language of the future. Or something. I'm pretty sure there's a Perl6 to Javascript implementation floating around out there in PUGS. Again, this is pretty anecdotal. Chris From tcp at uchicago.edu Thu Jul 13 21:13:28 2006 From: tcp at uchicago.edu (Ted Pollari) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:13:28 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2006, at 9:22 AM, bray at sent.com wrote: > This will be our best meeting yet. > > When > ---- > > Thurs. July 13, 2006. 7pm. So it's looking like I probably won't be able to make it to this month's meeting (arrgh, second month in a row) due to unexpected familial trouble -- if the pycon bid is discussed, I'm still up for helping getting it going, though it is looking like I'll not be in Chicago in 2008 almost for sure... still hoping to be there tonight... -ted From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Thu Jul 13 21:17:23 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:17:23 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ted Pollari wrote on 07/13/2006 02:13:28 PM: > if the pycon bid is discussed, I'm still up for > helping getting it going, though it is looking like I'll not be in > Chicago in 2008 almost for sure... Doh. I totally forgot about that... I had promised I'd chat with Allegro hotel about this by July... Anyone have a quick link to the needed number or rooms and needed room sizes? /runs to the phone to call Allegro. -Jason From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 21:18:47 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:18:47 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607131218r5af3c9d0se6afd27f807a2e24@mail.gmail.com> On 7/13/06, Ted Pollari wrote: > if the pycon bid is discussed I didn't do a darn thing that I committed to doing by July. I dropped the heck out of the ball. Sorry folks. Chris From mtobis at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 21:39:01 2006 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:39:01 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607131218r5af3c9d0se6afd27f807a2e24@mail.gmail.com> References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607131218r5af3c9d0se6afd27f807a2e24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As for dropping the ball, it looks like Spiny Norman will remain a bit vaporous as of tonight, though perhaps that is appropriate for software named after an elusive giant hedgehog. "Dinsdale was deeply afraid of Spiny Norman, a hedgehog who, he believed, lived in a hangar at Luton Airport and who "was wont to be about twelve feet from snout to tail, but when Dinsdale was depressed Norman could be anything up to eight hundred yards long." see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Piranha_Brothers Maybe I should unveil my Roomba Wars idea; it is a combination of core wars and turtle graphics and vaccuum cleaners. It is totally imaginary at this point, but it might make for a good code jam and a good teaching tool. This will definitely be our best meeting ever! mt From bray at sent.com Thu Jul 13 22:14:39 2006 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:14:39 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607131218r5af3c9d0se6afd27f807a2e24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604DDD5D-6778-47FA-A848-4041295B2857@sent.com> On Jul 13, 2006, at 2:39 PM, Michael Tobis wrote: > > This will definitely be our best meeting ever! indeed.. you see, they keep getting better and better. -- bhr From clint at robotic.com Mon Jul 17 03:47:27 2006 From: clint at robotic.com (Clint Laskowski) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 20:47:27 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] list name [chicago] vs. [chipy] Message-ID: <44BAEC2F.3020909@robotic.com> Why is this list called [Chicago] instead of [ChiPy]? Didn't it used to be [ChiPy]? Or did I miss something? The [Chicago] tag in the email subject line is so no descript. Or am I just looking for something to wine about ;-) ? -- --- . Clint Laskowski, CISSP . Information Security Consultant . clint at robotic.com . 414-807-8845 (mobile) From david at graniteweb.com Mon Jul 17 03:56:35 2006 From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 20:56:35 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] list name [chicago] vs. [chipy] In-Reply-To: <44BAEC2F.3020909@robotic.com> References: <44BAEC2F.3020909@robotic.com> Message-ID: <20060717015635.GB13761@wdfs.graniteweb.com> * Clint Laskowski [2006-07-16 20:47]: > Why is this list called [Chicago] instead of [ChiPy]? Didn't it used to > be [ChiPy]? Or did I miss something? The [Chicago] tag in the email > subject line is so no descript. > > Or am I just looking for something to wine about ;-) ? Isn't wine a different project? Actually, it has to do with it being hosted through the python.org website now instead of by Chris. If I remember correctly, we went with chicago to follow a loose convention of other lists on python.org. -- David Rock david at graniteweb.com From skip at pobox.com Mon Jul 17 05:15:13 2006 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] list name [chicago] vs. [chipy] In-Reply-To: <20060717015635.GB13761@wdfs.graniteweb.com> References: <44BAEC2F.3020909@robotic.com> <20060717015635.GB13761@wdfs.graniteweb.com> Message-ID: <17595.193.527859.883291@montanaro.dyndns.org> >> Why is this list called [Chicago] instead of [ChiPy]? Didn't it used >> to be [ChiPy]? Or did I miss something? The [Chicago] tag in the >> email subject line is so no descript. David> Actually, it has to do with it being hosted through the David> python.org website now instead of by Chris. If I remember David> correctly, we went with chicago to follow a loose convention of David> other lists on python.org. Right. We discussed it at the time of the switch to an @python.org address and felt that people would be more likely to recognize "chicago" than "chipy". If I google for "chicago python", the top three hits are related to this group or its wiki. Skip From krisstar6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 17 06:51:10 2006 From: krisstar6 at gmail.com (bender robot) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:51:10 -0700 Subject: [Chicago] list name [chicago] vs. [chipy] In-Reply-To: <44BAEC2F.3020909@robotic.com> References: <44BAEC2F.3020909@robotic.com> Message-ID: <8da5dc240607162151m790023a6o147afd9203fbc648@mail.gmail.com> Would u like some cheese with that wine. It's just a name and what's in a name. ? :) On 7/16/06, Clint Laskowski wrote: > > Why is this list called [Chicago] instead of [ChiPy]? Didn't it used to > be [ChiPy]? Or did I miss something? The [Chicago] tag in the email > subject line is so no descript. > > Or am I just looking for something to wine about ;-) ? > > -- > > --- > . Clint Laskowski, CISSP > . Information Security Consultant > . clint at robotic.com > . 414-807-8845 (mobile) > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- If fishes could talk they'd ask for legs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20060716/b7b47298/attachment.htm From brian at planetshwoop.com Mon Jul 17 16:56:03 2006 From: brian at planetshwoop.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:56:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Chicago] Python based webmail client? Message-ID: <40748.63.73.213.5.1153148163.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> Has anyone encountered a usable Python-based webmail client? A number of us were discussing this at a recent UFO-Chicago meeting and realized that we a) didn't like to load the huge PHP binary if possible and b) prefer chipmunks to camels (python vs perl) on the off chance we might ever wish to hack it. c) run mailman anyway, so the python binaries are around d) are so so sick of squirrelmail Suggestions? Tips? Pointers? brian ps I don't know if this is still the case, but it appeared that Yahoo at some point heavily used Python for webmail. But it's been years since I've been a regular user. -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ From ianb at colorstudy.com Mon Jul 17 17:49:58 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:49:58 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Python based webmail client? In-Reply-To: <40748.63.73.213.5.1153148163.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> References: <40748.63.73.213.5.1153148163.squirrel@webmail.psys.org> Message-ID: <44BBB1A6.9090905@colorstudy.com> Brian Sobolak wrote: > Has anyone encountered a usable Python-based webmail client? A number of > us were discussing this at a recent UFO-Chicago meeting and realized that > we > a) didn't like to load the huge PHP binary if possible and > b) prefer chipmunks to camels (python vs perl) on the off chance we > might ever wish to hack it. > c) run mailman anyway, so the python binaries are around > d) are so so sick of squirrelmail > > Suggestions? Tips? Pointers? bobomail is around from a long long time ago. Hula (http://www.hula-project.org/) was supposed to be building a nice webmail client; I don't know if they ever did. I can't get to their website either. > ps I don't know if this is still the case, but it appeared that Yahoo at > some point heavily used Python for webmail. But it's been years since > I've been a regular user. I'm pretty sure that was transitional. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From ph at malaprop.org Mon Jul 17 18:32:09 2006 From: ph at malaprop.org (Peter Harkins) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 11:32:09 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Python User Group: Thurs. July 13, 2006 7pm. In-Reply-To: References: <1152714152.15413.265863984@webmail.messagingengine.com> <3096c19d0607131218r5af3c9d0se6afd27f807a2e24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060717163209.GH18982@malaprop.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Jul 13, 2006 at 02:39:01PM -0500, Michael Tobis wrote: > Maybe I should unveil my Roomba Wars idea; it is a combination of core > wars and turtle graphics and vaccuum cleaners. It is totally imaginary > at this point, but it might make for a good code jam and a good > teaching tool. As a followup to your presentation, there's also Roomba Frogger: http://news.com.com/Roomba+takes+Frogger+to+the+asphalt+jungle/2100-1043_3-6049922.html - -- Peter Harkins - http://push.cx -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: If you don't know what this is, it's OK to ignore it. iD8DBQFEu7uHa6PWv6+ALKoRAq5KAJ9YenMlXqHlkchnePTYcVouK1FV/ACcCAwB yZKJ8CPYSNIzvv1XFjU/1bI= =zDZc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fawad at fawad.net Mon Jul 17 20:41:26 2006 From: fawad at fawad.net (Fawad Halim) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:41:26 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Python based webmail client? In-Reply-To: <44BBB1A6.9090905@colorstudy.com> References: <44BBB1A6.9090905@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <30e3747367c2cbf65ef3c2c011a5aef4@localhost> Hula's webmail client is awesome. However, last time I checked, it was only able to talk to its own backend and didn't have an option for using an arbitrary IMAP server. -fawad On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:49:58 -0500, Ian Bicking wrote: > Brian Sobolak wrote: >> Has anyone encountered a usable Python-based webmail client? A number > of >> us were discussing this at a recent UFO-Chicago meeting and realized > that >> we >> a) didn't like to load the huge PHP binary if possible and >> b) prefer chipmunks to camels (python vs perl) on the off chance we >> might ever wish to hack it. >> c) run mailman anyway, so the python binaries are around >> d) are so so sick of squirrelmail >> >> Suggestions? Tips? Pointers? > > bobomail is around from a long long time ago. > > Hula (http://www.hula-project.org/) was supposed to be building a nice > webmail client; I don't know if they ever did. I can't get to their > website either. > >> ps I don't know if this is still the case, but it appeared that Yahoo at >> some point heavily used Python for webmail. But it's been years since >> I've been a regular user. > > I'm pretty sure that was transitional. > > > From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Jul 20 21:37:50 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] autoimp Message-ID: <3096c19d0607201237r363664d5n605dc185c1911176@mail.gmail.com> Just saw this, http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/autoimp/1.0.1 Kind of a neat utility. It imports all your modules (ALL your modules) but loads them lazily on your first usage. Cool for your interactive sessions. Anyone using it? Chris From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Thu Jul 20 21:58:01 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:58:01 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] autoimp In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607201237r363664d5n605dc185c1911176@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: chicago-bounces at python.org wrote on 07/20/2006 02:37:50 PM: > Just saw this, http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/autoimp/1.0.1 > Anyone using it? Nope, but on an off-topic, but semi-related note... does anyone else *hate* the name "cheeseshop" as much as I do? Really, I don't know why I hate the name so much. Maybe 'cause it reminds of all the childish module names in the Twisted framework ('twisted.spread.jelly', 'twisted.spread.banana'). What was wrong calling simply it "Python Package Index". The mixed metaphors between python (the snake) and python (the British comedy) is kinda annoying... For example, so we now store "eggs" in a "cheeseshop"?! Okay, sorry for the rant. But I needed to get that off my chest. - Jason From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Jul 20 22:00:13 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 15:00:13 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] autoimp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44BFE0CD.80703@colorstudy.com> Jason R Huggins wrote: > chicago-bounces at python.org wrote on 07/20/2006 02:37:50 PM: >> Just saw this, http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/autoimp/1.0.1 >> Anyone using it? > > Nope, but on an off-topic, but semi-related note... does anyone else > *hate* the name "cheeseshop" as much as I do? Really, I don't know why I > hate the name so much. Maybe 'cause it reminds of all the childish module > names in the Twisted framework ('twisted.spread.jelly', > 'twisted.spread.banana'). What was wrong calling simply it "Python Package > Index". The mixed metaphors between python (the snake) and python (the > British comedy) is kinda annoying... For example, so we now store "eggs" > in a "cheeseshop"?! I totally wanted it to be the Ministry Of Python Packages (MOPP). That sounds much more official. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Jul 20 22:01:37 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 15:01:37 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] autoimp In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0607201237r363664d5n605dc185c1911176@mail.gmail.com> References: <3096c19d0607201237r363664d5n605dc185c1911176@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44BFE121.2030508@colorstudy.com> Chris McAvoy wrote: > Just saw this, http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/autoimp/1.0.1 > > Kind of a neat utility. It imports all your modules (ALL your > modules) but loads them lazily on your first usage. Cool for your > interactive sessions. > > Anyone using it? I've used py.std just a little, where you do: from py import std std.os.unlink('foo') It has lower overhead than autoimp, but autoimp is a bit more concise for interactive sessions. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From tcp at uchicago.edu Thu Jul 20 22:19:14 2006 From: tcp at uchicago.edu (Ted Pollari) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 15:19:14 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] names (was Re: autoimp) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <965576E9-07CF-4656-A07C-105F47ECF398@uchicago.edu> On Jul 20, 2006, at 2:58 PM, Jason R Huggins wrote: > Nope, but on an off-topic, but semi-related note... does anyone else > *hate* the name "cheeseshop" as much as I do? It makes me twitch, just ever so slightly and I really don't expect anyone to take it seriously if it were ever mentioned in conversation/ explanation because of its name... so yeah, I'm guessing I'm with you on this... > Really, I don't know why I > hate the name so much. Maybe 'cause it reminds of all the childish > module > names in the Twisted framework ('twisted.spread.jelly', > 'twisted.spread.banana'). What was wrong calling simply it "Python > Package > Index". The mixed metaphors between python (the snake) and python (the > British comedy) is kinda annoying... For example, so we now store > "eggs" > in a "cheeseshop"?! > Friends don't let friends mix stupid naming schemes or something like that. The 'egg' name seems reasonable to me even without the metaphorical pedigree but when you mix in the 'cheeseshop' it's all pretty much a lost cause. Clever as their namers may think themselves, names like those really don't further the cause of gaining respectability in many circles that are already suspicious/untrusting of the open source community and products produced therein, IMNTBHO (in my never to be humble opinion). -ted From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Jul 20 22:32:25 2006 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 15:32:25 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] autoimp In-Reply-To: References: <3096c19d0607201237r363664d5n605dc185c1911176@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0607201332s2d17fd51u3d2a39c1dc82c73e@mail.gmail.com> On 7/20/06, Jason R Huggins wrote: > Nope, but on an off-topic, but semi-related note... does anyone else > *hate* the name "cheeseshop" as much as I do? But it's a Monty PYTHON sketch! They're hilllllarious. "do you have cheese?" "no we don't have cheese! this is a cheese shop!" gah Monty Python is like the Grateful Dead of the comedy world. Good music, embarassing fans. Chris From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Thu Jul 20 22:48:56 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 15:48:56 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] I want my PPI [was: autoimp] In-Reply-To: <44BFE0CD.80703@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: > I totally wanted it to be the Ministry Of Python Packages (MOPP). That > sounds much more official. Add some heavy metal umlauts, and I'd be +1 all over that. :-) (Makes as much sense as "cheeseshop". ) But seriously, is there any chance that the name "cheeseshop" will ever be changed back to simply "PPI" as in "Python Package Index". Should I write a PEP for "PPI"? -Jason From PRobare at chx.com Thu Jul 20 23:07:17 2006 From: PRobare at chx.com (Robare, Phil) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:07:17 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] names (was Re: autoimp) In-Reply-To: <965576E9-07CF-4656-A07C-105F47ECF398@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB799@MX3.chx.com> Ted Pollari on Thursday, July 20, 2006 3:19 PM Wrote: > On Jul 20, 2006, at 2:58 PM, Jason R Huggins wrote: > > Nope, but on an off-topic, but semi-related note... does anyone else > > *hate* the name "cheeseshop" as much as I do? > Clever as their namers may think themselves, names like those really > don't further the cause of gaining respectability in many circles > that are already suspicious/untrusting of the open source community > and products produced therein, IMNTBHO (in my never to be humble > opinion). I don't think the stupidity of names is really a problem with their gaining respectibility. The alliteration in "Ruby on Rails" is probably more attractive than respectible. Did "Lisp" lose out to "Fortran" and "Cobol" (all names of the same generation) because the name was sillier? Certainly "C" as the successor to "B" was silly while "Pascal" was respectible. That didn't stop "C" from triumphing, at least for a time. While Monty's Python's Flying Circus seemed immortal comedy at the time of Guido's naming of his new language it now seems dated and references to their skits are more obscure than permissable. I still find charm in it's insider-ness, and a link to a time when open source was an impossible dream rather than an alternative development method for commercial software. So I don't want to change either Cheeseshop or Eggs. Now the Windows python icons on the other hand... Phil From tcp at uchicago.edu Thu Jul 20 23:19:48 2006 From: tcp at uchicago.edu (Ted Pollari) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:19:48 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] names (was Re: autoimp) In-Reply-To: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB799@MX3.chx.com> References: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB799@MX3.chx.com> Message-ID: <573A3BFC-5203-4E03-B75C-2AA65B6ADB99@uchicago.edu> On Jul 20, 2006, at 4:07 PM, Robare, Phil wrote: > Certainly "C" as the successor to "B" was silly while "Pascal" was > respectible. That didn't stop "C" from triumphing, at least for a > time. See, the difference is that C isn't silly (or anywhere near as silly as "Cheeseshop") for the uninitiated individual that doesn't get the reference/history and that's what I was driving at. Is the silliness of the name the only reason that one language or another lost out/didn't gain corporate (or other) mind share / market share? Of course not, but could it contribute? Certainly. In other domains, ill-chosen names certainly have hindered market share -- the Chevy Nova is the easiest example but there certainly are others. I'd argue "Cheeseshop" goes beyond most names in the silly factor and, as I said, it's silly in a face-valid sort of way, whereas "C" is amusing simply because it came after "B" but you wouldn't necessarily assume that was the case only from the name -- hence the name "C" isn't so silly on first blush like "Cheeseshop" is. > > While Monty's Python's Flying Circus seemed immortal comedy at the > time > of Guido's naming of his new language it now seems dated and > references > to their skits are more obscure than permissable. I still find > charm in > it's insider-ness, and a link to a time when open source was an > impossible dream rather than an alternative development method for > commercial software. Sure, there's charm to it, but I find my old ratty hooded sweatshirt to have a certain charm as well -- my wife, on the other hand doesn't -- and I have a hunch that d a prospective employer wouldn't find me all that endearing if I made that sweatshirt a staple part of my interview attire. > > So I don't want to change either Cheeseshop or Eggs. Now the Windows > python icons on the other hand... > Now, those I find those charming =) -t -- Ted Pollari Research Programmer Department of Health Studies The University of Chicago tcp at uchicago.edu 773.834.0559 From asl2 at pobox.com Thu Jul 20 23:39:17 2006 From: asl2 at pobox.com (Aaron Lav) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:39:17 -0400 Subject: [Chicago] names (was Re: autoimp) In-Reply-To: <573A3BFC-5203-4E03-B75C-2AA65B6ADB99@uchicago.edu> References: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB799@MX3.chx.com> <573A3BFC-5203-4E03-B75C-2AA65B6ADB99@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <20060720213917.GA4281@panix.com> On Thu, Jul 20, 2006 at 04:19:48PM -0500, Ted Pollari wrote: > In other > domains, ill-chosen names certainly have hindered market share -- the > Chevy Nova is the easiest example but there certainly are others. For a debunking of the Chevy Nova urban legend, see . Aaron Lav (http://www.pobox.com/~asl2/) From zibble at gmail.com Thu Jul 20 23:39:42 2006 From: zibble at gmail.com (Scott Zibble) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:39:42 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: names (was Re: autoimp) In-Reply-To: <573A3BFC-5203-4E03-B75C-2AA65B6ADB99@uchicago.edu> References: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB799@MX3.chx.com> <573A3BFC-5203-4E03-B75C-2AA65B6ADB99@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Oh, Ted, I'm sure your wife has a certain charm to her as well. You just have to look harder. > Sure, there's charm to it, but I find my old ratty hooded sweatshirt > to have a certain charm as well -- my wife, on the other hand doesn't > -- and I have a hunch that d a prospective employer wouldn't find me > all that endearing if I made that sweatshirt a staple part of my > interview attire. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20060720/95d8af5a/attachment-0001.htm From PRobare at chx.com Thu Jul 20 23:43:14 2006 From: PRobare at chx.com (Robare, Phil) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:43:14 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] names (was Re: autoimp) In-Reply-To: <573A3BFC-5203-4E03-B75C-2AA65B6ADB99@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB79A@MX3.chx.com> Ted Pollari on Thursday, July 20, 2006 4:20 PM wrote: > Is the silliness of the name the only reason that one language or > another lost out/didn't gain corporate (or other) mind share / market > share? Of course not, but could it contribute? Certainly. In other > domains, ill-chosen names certainly have hindered market share. OK, I'll agree in the world of business names are definitely important. Even if the Nova story may be only an urban legend. >From the Wikipedia entry on Osco Drugs: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osco_Drugs) In 1986, American Stores decided that they wanted to have one consistent brand name for their three drug store chains, as part of a strategy to build a nationwide network of pharmacies. Since there were more Osco Drug stores than either of the other two brands, they converted all of the Sav-on Drug Stores and Skaggs Drug Stores to the Osco Drug name. However, the name "Osco" did not resonate well with Sav-on's southern California customer base. American Stores quickly made the decision to change the name of the former Sav-On stores back to Sav-on Drugs, although for several years the stores retained a much smaller Osco banner next to the Sav-On sign. Suggestions that the Osco name was dropped due to its similarity to the Spanish word "asco" (slang for "I vomit") were dismissed by the company as "nonsense." From tcp at uchicago.edu Thu Jul 20 23:45:42 2006 From: tcp at uchicago.edu (Ted Pollari) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: names (was Re: autoimp) In-Reply-To: References: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB799@MX3.chx.com> <573A3BFC-5203-4E03-B75C-2AA65B6ADB99@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <5F0EBA8C-E2A8-4F30-BF5A-967FBE7E9978@uchicago.edu> On Jul 20, 2006, at 4:39 PM, Scott Zibble wrote: > Oh, Ted, I'm sure your wife has a certain charm to her as well. > You just have to look harder. > > > Sure, there's charm to it, but I find my old ratty hooded sweatshirt > > to have a certain charm as well -- my wife, on the other hand > doesn't > > -- and I have a hunch that d a prospective employer wouldn't > find me > > all that endearing if I made that sweatshirt a staple part of my > > interview attire. HAH! (now to make sure she never ever reads the archives...) =) -t -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20060720/a396bac9/attachment.html From tcp at uchicago.edu Thu Jul 20 23:49:22 2006 From: tcp at uchicago.edu (Ted Pollari) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:49:22 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] names (was Re: autoimp) In-Reply-To: <20060720213917.GA4281@panix.com> References: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB799@MX3.chx.com> <573A3BFC-5203-4E03-B75C-2AA65B6ADB99@uchicago.edu> <20060720213917.GA4281@panix.com> Message-ID: <307FC5E0-4F76-4183-906B-BAECD81CC58C@uchicago.edu> On Jul 20, 2006, at 4:39 PM, Aaron Lav wrote: > On Thu, Jul 20, 2006 at 04:19:48PM -0500, Ted Pollari wrote: >> In other >> domains, ill-chosen names certainly have hindered market share -- the >> Chevy Nova is the easiest example but there certainly are others. > > For a debunking of the Chevy Nova urban legend, see > . > > Aaron Lav (http://www.pobox.com/~asl2/) Fair enough. Nevertheless, I stand by my previous argument, completely without presenting any evidence at this point =) -t From ianb at colorstudy.com Fri Jul 21 00:13:40 2006 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:13:40 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] I want my PPI [was: autoimp] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44C00014.2060102@colorstudy.com> Jason R Huggins wrote: >> I totally wanted it to be the Ministry Of Python Packages (MOPP). That >> sounds much more official. > > Add some heavy metal umlauts, and I'd be +1 all over that. :-) (Makes as > much sense as "cheeseshop". ) > > But seriously, is there any chance that the name "cheeseshop" will ever be > changed back to simply "PPI" as in "Python Package Index". > > Should I write a PEP for "PPI"? *Maybe* you could get it to go back to PyPI, the old name, since that name isn't actually entirely gone. But it'd probably be hard. Catalog-SIG would be the place to bring it up. Or just poke at Richard Jones, he originally made the name decision. -- Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From skip at pobox.com Fri Jul 21 00:36:57 2006 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:36:57 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] names (was Re: autoimp) In-Reply-To: <965576E9-07CF-4656-A07C-105F47ECF398@uchicago.edu> References: <965576E9-07CF-4656-A07C-105F47ECF398@uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <17600.1417.220716.625938@montanaro.dyndns.org> >> Nope, but on an off-topic, but semi-related note... does anyone else >> *hate* the name "cheeseshop" as much as I do? Ted> It makes me twitch, just ever so slightly and I really don't expect Ted> anyone to take it seriously if it were ever mentioned in Ted> conversation/ explanation because of its name... so yeah, I'm Ted> guessing I'm with you on this... I think the name is to go along with the other obscure Monty Python-related machine names: creosote, jimenez, etc. Skip From skip at pobox.com Fri Jul 21 00:39:50 2006 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:39:50 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] names (was Re: autoimp) In-Reply-To: <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB799@MX3.chx.com> References: <965576E9-07CF-4656-A07C-105F47ECF398@uchicago.edu> <51338F3CEE91164C89AFCC010FEC7F6F02CAB799@MX3.chx.com> Message-ID: <17600.1590.998602.272933@montanaro.dyndns.org> Phil> I don't think the stupidity of names is really a problem with Phil> their gaining respectibility. The alliteration in "Ruby on Rails" Phil> is probably more attractive than respectible. Did "Lisp" lose out Phil> to "Fortran" and "Cobol" (all names of the same generation) Phil> because the name was sillier? Certainly "C" as the successor to Phil> "B" was silly while "Pascal" was respectible. That didn't stop Phil> "C" from triumphing, at least for a time. With the exception of Ruby on Rails, all the names you mentioned were firmly entrenched in the computing community long before programming as an activity exploded because of the web. Skip From JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM Fri Jul 21 00:44:38 2006 From: JRHuggins at thoughtworks.COM (Jason R Huggins) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:44:38 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] I want my PPI [was: autoimp] In-Reply-To: <44C00014.2060102@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: ian bicking wrote on 07/20/2006 05:13:40 PM: > *Maybe* you could get it to go back to PyPI, the old name, since that > name isn't actually entirely gone. But it'd probably be hard. > Catalog-SIG would be the place to bring it up. Or just poke at Richard > Jones, he originally made the name decision. Cool. I'll go talk some sense into him. :-) - Jason "the cheeseinator" Huggins From dbt at meat.net Fri Jul 21 16:33:56 2006 From: dbt at meat.net (David Terrell) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 09:33:56 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] list name [chicago] vs. [chipy] In-Reply-To: <17595.193.527859.883291@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <44BAEC2F.3020909@robotic.com> <20060717015635.GB13761@wdfs.graniteweb.com> <17595.193.527859.883291@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20060721143356.GB12410@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org> On Sun, Jul 16, 2006 at 10:15:13PM -0500, skip at pobox.com wrote: > > >> Why is this list called [Chicago] instead of [ChiPy]? Didn't it used > >> to be [ChiPy]? Or did I miss something? The [Chicago] tag in the > >> email subject line is so no descript. > > David> Actually, it has to do with it being hosted through the > David> python.org website now instead of by Chris. If I remember > David> correctly, we went with chicago to follow a loose convention of > David> other lists on python.org. > > Right. We discussed it at the time of the switch to an @python.org address > and felt that people would be more likely to recognize "chicago" than > "chipy". If I google for "chicago python", the top three hits are related > to this group or its wiki. Sure but we could still change the subject tag to chipy or chicago.py or something. -- David Terrell dbt at meat.net ((meatspace)) http://meat.net/ From david at graniteweb.com Fri Jul 21 21:26:15 2006 From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:26:15 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] list name [chicago] vs. [chipy] In-Reply-To: <20060721143356.GB12410@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org> References: <44BAEC2F.3020909@robotic.com> <20060717015635.GB13761@wdfs.graniteweb.com> <17595.193.527859.883291@montanaro.dyndns.org> <20060721143356.GB12410@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org> Message-ID: <20060721192615.GA11215@wdfs.graniteweb.com> * David Terrell [2006-07-21 09:33]: > On Sun, Jul 16, 2006 at 10:15:13PM -0500, skip at pobox.com wrote: > > > > >> Why is this list called [Chicago] instead of [ChiPy]? Didn't it used > > >> to be [ChiPy]? Or did I miss something? The [Chicago] tag in the > > >> email subject line is so no descript. > > > > David> Actually, it has to do with it being hosted through the > > David> python.org website now instead of by Chris. If I remember > > David> correctly, we went with chicago to follow a loose convention of > > David> other lists on python.org. > > > > Right. We discussed it at the time of the switch to an @python.org address > > and felt that people would be more likely to recognize "chicago" than > > "chipy". If I google for "chicago python", the top three hits are related > > to this group or its wiki. > > Sure but we could still change the subject tag to chipy or chicago.py > or something. That may be mildly confusing. "I thought this was the Chicago Python group, not chipy." Still, perhaps [ChiPy] would work... -- David Rock david at graniteweb.com From maney at two14.net Fri Jul 21 21:58:10 2006 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:58:10 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] list name [chicago] vs. [chipy] In-Reply-To: <20060721192615.GA11215@wdfs.graniteweb.com> References: <44BAEC2F.3020909@robotic.com> <20060717015635.GB13761@wdfs.graniteweb.com> <17595.193.527859.883291@montanaro.dyndns.org> <20060721143356.GB12410@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org> <20060721192615.GA11215@wdfs.graniteweb.com> Message-ID: <20060721195810.GB26365@furrr.two14.net> On Fri, Jul 21, 2006 at 02:26:15PM -0500, David Rock (et. al.) wrote: > > > >> Why is this list called [Chicago] instead of [ChiPy]? > > > > Actually, it has to do with it being hosted through ... > > > Right. We discussed it at the time of the switch ... > > Sure but we could still change the subject tag to chipy or chicago.py > That may be mildly confusing. Alternately, the potentially confused might be better served, in the long run, by being introduced to sensible tools that can do such exotic things as sorting chipy/chicago list traffic into a separate [virtual?] folder, and then it won't matter what lameness happens to the subject line... which is often not very meaningful anyway! :-) -- the warfare on the cutting edge of any science draws attention away from the huge uncontested background, the dull metal heft of the axe that gives the cutting edge its power. -- Dennett From jason at hostedlabs.com Mon Jul 24 17:46:43 2006 From: jason at hostedlabs.com (Jason Rexilius) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:46:43 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] BARcamp Summary Message-ID: <44C4EB63.3060703@hostedlabs.com> Hi Everybody, Apparently my attempt to send this to the list didn't work last time, so I thought I would try again... I just wanted to thank everyone for making BARcamp such a success. I also wanted to recap for those that couldn't make it and make a few requests to the group. So first let me thank everyone who presented, organized or sponsored: * Troy Haaland - helped mop floors, and clean up after (I really needed the help, thanks Troy!) * Garret Smith - brought liquor, tended bar, signage, conversation packet router * Richard Lynch - material support, conversations, helping hand * Sarah Gray - donated butcher paper and projector so we could write and see * Dan Ratner - donated camping furniture, supported the temporarily disabled * Brian Schoen - brought the Billy Goat CheezBorga for starving organizers * My Linh Le - All around hot girl, donated SUV, food stuffs and camping furniture, puts up with Jason Rexilius ;-) * Walker Hamilton - presenter, mischief maker * Jonathan Wolf Rentzsch - presenter, tie display mannequin * Jason Jacobsohn - presenter * Joe Born - device debugger * Ziad Hussain - presenter * Matt England - presenter * Chris Gladwin - presenter * Jim Wales - presenter, political rabble-rouser, really cool guy * Sean Johnson - presenter, conspirator * Mason Dixon - presenter * Ian Bicking - code sprinter, hacker, good guy * Johnathon Andrew Walter - conspirator * John Quigley - brought beer, nuf said * Wendell Davis - conspirator * Michael Tobis - presenter * David Dalka - Marketing / Customer Listening evangelist leadership resource for high growth start ups. * Realnets - sponsor http://www.realnets.com/ * SitterCity.com - sponsor http://www.sittercity.com/ * Portage Venture Partners - sponsor http://www.portageventures.com/ * Arc Technology Group - sponsor http://www.arctg.com/ * Intentionally Designed - sponsor http://www.intentionallydesigned.com/ * Mail Launder - sponsor http://www.maillaunder.com/ * Chicagoland Entrepreneurial Center - sponsor http://www.chicagolandec.org/ * CleverSafe - sponsor http://www.cleversafe.org/ * Neuros - sponsor http://www.neurostechnology.com/ Here is what happened for those that missed it: Friday 09:00 - setup begins, Troy and My Linh help me out. Troy goes nuts with the mop and the Pinesol.. Saturday 12:00 - people started showing up en masse.. 12:30 - jason runs around like chicken, sans head, Garrett brings liquor, fetches ice 13:00 - we tapped the first keg 13:30 - Ziad Hussain gave a history-rich talk on mobile handheld multimedia and gaming appliances and the new GP2x linux device specifically 14:00 - Garrett threw up some break-out area conversation topic signs 14:00 - the Chicago Linux Users Group started their Uber fest 14:30 - lots of side discussions about web2.0, XML transforms, seed funding in Chicago (lack thereof) 15:00 - second keg from LUG is tapped 16:00 - Cleversafe gives talk on their approach to secure, distributed storage, its uses, and their roadmap 17:00 - A code sprint gets organized for HyperCard implementation in Javascript w/ light server side 17:30 - lots of food runs 18:00 - HyperCard code sprint continues 18:00 - Mason Dixon gave a talk on Motion User Interface, A presentation of flows within the development of interactive high-data rate displays 18:45 - Sean Johnson gives a talk on Burning Your Business to the Ground, or what mistakes a start-up should avoid. By the way, the resources mentioned in that talk are up on the BARcamp main page 19:30 - Michael Tobis gave a talk on Programmable Educational Media, shared programmable widgets and a shared environment in which the widgets can interact, to teach programming or other quantitative topics. 20:30 - Jim Wales gave a quick talk on Wikipedia and a longer talk on Campaign Wiki, which is organizing a meetup event here in Chicago 29 July, linked to on the BARcamp main page 21:30 - Lots of informal talks about the Chicago tech scene, HyperCard hacking, Wikis and clubs, pubs, and parties. Sunday 05:00 - talks from the night before finally wind down, the last camper is tucked neatly into his sleeping bag, visions of code and AJAX widgets dancing in his head. 06:00 - jason sleeps 07:00 - jason wakes, goes to shower and fetch another fan (damn it was hot!) 09:00 - people start showing up for day 2, light talks, coffee is brewed.. extra strong 12:00 - some spontaneous talk was given.. can't remember which.. uhh.. more coffee 13:00 - script kiddie posse shows up, a little playing around with lock picking, video presentations, little rapscallions ;-) 14:00 - jason rexilius gives boring talk on building geographically distributed HA web clusters 15:00 - Jonathan Wolf Rentzsch gives a great talk on Mac OSX GUI hacking in Cocoa and Objective C, really cool 16:00 - Jason Jacobsohn introduces the crew to the Chicagoland Entrepreneurial Center and what it can do for YOU! Nicely done! 17:00 - food?.. 19:00 - spontaneous meeting of the minds on the challenges facing a tech start-up in Chicago, problems in building community, and what to do about it. The answer: The Chicago CoWorking Incubator Project. Take energetic, entrepreneurial tech folks, add beer, heat and creativity and you get an action plan. See the details on the main page of the BARcamp site. 21:30 - jason, groggily, chases the last of the hardcore campers away so he can sleep.. ooh sweet sleep, how I miss thee so. Monday 06:00 - clean up and return of borrowed tables and chairs begins, Troy Halaand throws in for help, yet again. Thanks Troy! So here is what came out of BARcamp Chicago 2006: 1) An open source project to bring HyperCard back from the dead 2) A CoWorking project to build a central hub for the community and a home for wayward entrepreneurs 3) Lots of idea sharing, introductions, conversations and learning 4) Some entrepreneurs who were looking for teammates for start-ups met some rock-star hackers, we shall see what comes of it 5) Companies met business partners and a few successful collaboration stories came of it. 6) A number of the stealth tech start-ups in Chicago saw some spotlight Lastly I would like to make a request of people who were there: 1) If you gave a talk, mentioned a resource, or had something to share, get some reference material or a link up on the BARcamp site so people can find it 2) If I missed a shout out, a presentation or a thank you thats in order, please let me know. I know I missed stuff.. 3) Check back on the BARcamp site for updates on the various other events that are coming up and support those; nextChicago, campaign wiki, CoWorking Chicago, user group meetings.. theres a lot happening! Thanks again to everyone that showed up, participated, supported and donated! See you all at the next event! -jason From fitz at red-bean.com Tue Jul 25 02:15:43 2006 From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:15:43 -0700 Subject: [Chicago] BARcamp Summary In-Reply-To: <44C4EB63.3060703@hostedlabs.com> References: <44C4EB63.3060703@hostedlabs.com> Message-ID: Wow. Sounds like an amazing time. If only I'd been in town... :-( -Fitz On 7/24/06, Jason Rexilius wrote: > Hi Everybody, > > Apparently my attempt to send this to the list didn't work last time, > so I thought I would try again... > > I just wanted to thank everyone for making BARcamp such a success. I > also wanted to recap for those that couldn't make it and make a few > requests to the group. So first let me thank everyone who presented, > organized or sponsored: > > * Troy Haaland - helped mop floors, and clean up after (I really needed > the help, thanks Troy!) > * Garret Smith - brought liquor, tended bar, signage, conversation > packet router > * Richard Lynch - material support, conversations, helping hand > * Sarah Gray - donated butcher paper and projector so we could write and > see > * Dan Ratner - donated camping furniture, supported the temporarily > disabled > * Brian Schoen - brought the Billy Goat CheezBorga for starving organizers > * My Linh Le - All around hot girl, donated SUV, food stuffs and camping > furniture, puts up with Jason Rexilius ;-) * Walker Hamilton - > presenter, mischief maker > * Jonathan Wolf Rentzsch - presenter, tie display mannequin > * Jason Jacobsohn - presenter > * Joe Born - device debugger > * Ziad Hussain - presenter > * Matt England - presenter > * Chris Gladwin - presenter > * Jim Wales - presenter, political rabble-rouser, really cool guy > * Sean Johnson - presenter, conspirator > * Mason Dixon - presenter > * Ian Bicking - code sprinter, hacker, good guy > * Johnathon Andrew Walter - conspirator > * John Quigley - brought beer, nuf said > * Wendell Davis - conspirator > * Michael Tobis - presenter > * David Dalka - Marketing / Customer Listening evangelist leadership > resource for high growth start ups. > * Realnets - sponsor http://www.realnets.com/ > * SitterCity.com - sponsor http://www.sittercity.com/ > * Portage Venture Partners - sponsor http://www.portageventures.com/ > * Arc Technology Group - sponsor http://www.arctg.com/ > * Intentionally Designed - sponsor http://www.intentionallydesigned.com/ > * Mail Launder - sponsor http://www.maillaunder.com/ > * Chicagoland Entrepreneurial Center - sponsor > http://www.chicagolandec.org/ > * CleverSafe - sponsor http://www.cleversafe.org/ > * Neuros - sponsor http://www.neurostechnology.com/ > > > Here is what happened for those that missed it: > > Friday > 09:00 - setup begins, Troy and My Linh help me out. Troy goes nuts with > the mop and the Pinesol.. > > Saturday > 12:00 - people started showing up en masse.. > 12:30 - jason runs around like chicken, sans head, Garrett brings > liquor, fetches ice > 13:00 - we tapped the first keg > 13:30 - Ziad Hussain gave a history-rich talk on mobile handheld > multimedia and gaming appliances and the new GP2x linux device specifically > 14:00 - Garrett threw up some break-out area conversation topic signs > 14:00 - the Chicago Linux Users Group started their Uber fest > 14:30 - lots of side discussions about web2.0, XML transforms, seed > funding in Chicago (lack thereof) > 15:00 - second keg from LUG is tapped > 16:00 - Cleversafe gives talk on their approach to secure, distributed > storage, its uses, and their roadmap > 17:00 - A code sprint gets organized for HyperCard implementation in > Javascript w/ light server side > 17:30 - lots of food runs > 18:00 - HyperCard code sprint continues > 18:00 - Mason Dixon gave a talk on Motion User Interface, A presentation > of flows within the development of interactive high-data rate displays > 18:45 - Sean Johnson gives a talk on Burning Your Business to the > Ground, or what mistakes a start-up should avoid. By the way, the > resources mentioned in that talk are up on the BARcamp main page > 19:30 - Michael Tobis gave a talk on Programmable Educational Media, > shared programmable widgets and a shared environment in which the > widgets can interact, to teach programming or other quantitative topics. > 20:30 - Jim Wales gave a quick talk on Wikipedia and a longer talk on > Campaign Wiki, which is organizing a meetup event here in Chicago 29 > July, linked to on the BARcamp main page > 21:30 - Lots of informal talks about the Chicago tech scene, HyperCard > hacking, Wikis and clubs, pubs, and parties. > > Sunday > 05:00 - talks from the night before finally wind down, the last camper > is tucked neatly into his sleeping bag, visions of code and AJAX widgets > dancing in his head. > 06:00 - jason sleeps > 07:00 - jason wakes, goes to shower and fetch another fan (damn it was > hot!) > 09:00 - people start showing up for day 2, light talks, coffee is > brewed.. extra strong > 12:00 - some spontaneous talk was given.. can't remember which.. uhh.. > more coffee > 13:00 - script kiddie posse shows up, a little playing around with lock > picking, video presentations, little rapscallions ;-) 14:00 - jason > rexilius gives boring talk on building geographically distributed HA web > clusters > 15:00 - Jonathan Wolf Rentzsch gives a great talk on Mac OSX GUI hacking > in Cocoa and Objective C, really cool > 16:00 - Jason Jacobsohn introduces the crew to the Chicagoland > Entrepreneurial Center and what it can do for YOU! Nicely done! > 17:00 - food?.. > 19:00 - spontaneous meeting of the minds on the challenges facing a tech > start-up in Chicago, problems in building community, and what to do > about it. The answer: The Chicago CoWorking Incubator Project. Take > energetic, entrepreneurial tech folks, add beer, heat and creativity and > you get an action plan. See the details on the main page of the BARcamp > site. > 21:30 - jason, groggily, chases the last of the hardcore campers away so > he can sleep.. ooh sweet sleep, how I miss thee so. > > Monday > 06:00 - clean up and return of borrowed tables and chairs begins, Troy > Halaand throws in for help, yet again. Thanks Troy! > > > So here is what came out of BARcamp Chicago 2006: > > 1) An open source project to bring HyperCard back from the dead > 2) A CoWorking project to build a central hub for the community and a > home for wayward entrepreneurs > 3) Lots of idea sharing, introductions, conversations and learning > 4) Some entrepreneurs who were looking for teammates for start-ups met > some rock-star hackers, we shall see what comes of it > 5) Companies met business partners and a few successful collaboration > stories came of it. > 6) A number of the stealth tech start-ups in Chicago saw some spotlight > > > Lastly I would like to make a request of people who were there: > > 1) If you gave a talk, mentioned a resource, or had something to share, > get some reference material or a link up on the BARcamp site so people > can find it > > 2) If I missed a shout out, a presentation or a thank you thats in > order, please let me know. I know I missed stuff.. > > 3) Check back on the BARcamp site for updates on the various other > events that are coming up and support those; nextChicago, campaign wiki, > CoWorking Chicago, user group meetings.. theres a lot happening! > > > Thanks again to everyone that showed up, participated, supported and > donated! See you all at the next event! > > -jason > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > From beau at open-source-staffing.com Thu Jul 27 01:15:19 2006 From: beau at open-source-staffing.com (Beau Gould) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:15:19 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] [JOB] Python Software Engineer, Chicago, IL | 60-90k Message-ID: <00fa01c6b109$5d4dce40$0201a8c0@BEAU> Python Software Engineer, Chicago, IL | 60-90k For the Software Engineer position, we are seeking a candidate to develop, deploy and document web-based applications and associated support programs as determined by internal and external client requirements. Our ideal candidate is: * 3-5 years experience relating to web-based software development using Python. Other languages a plus. * Minimum of 5 years experience developing, testing, deploying and maintaining interactive web applications on open source platforms. * Minimum of 5 years experience with any SQL-based RDBMS (PostgreSQL experience is especially useful) in the form of writing efficient SQL queries and executing them via programming language interfaces. * Thorough understanding of common web and e-commerce concepts and technologies, such as: HTTP, SSL, Javascript and variants, HTML and other client-side data formats (no graphic design skills required), XML and associated technologies, content management concepts, public-key cryptography, application and data security and privacy issues, basic TCP/IP networking. * Real-world experience with agile engineering practices (test-driven development, object-oriented design, refactoring) and project management practices (Scrum teamwork, User Story development and estimation). * Locals are preferred, but all candidates interested in relocating to the Evanston, IL area will be considered. If you are interested in this position and are a US Citizen/resident, please submit your resume, salary requirements, and a paragraph (or two) highlighting your skills/experience as it pertains to this job to beau at open-source-staffing.com Thank you, Beau J. Gould Open Source Staffing www.open-source-staffing.com beau at open-source-staffing.com From skip at pobox.com Fri Jul 28 12:44:09 2006 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 05:44:09 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Positions at TradeLink, C++ and Python Message-ID: <17609.60025.345508.205850@montanaro.dyndns.org> The company I work for, TradeLink, is looking for C++ and Python developers. In our Infrastructure and Applications groups the current need is most strongly felt in the C++ arena, however most new applications are written in Python. I'm a research programmer and do no C++ programming (good thing for TradeLink :-), just Python. I thought I'd pass along a link: http://www.tradelinkllc.com/ Note that you won't be able to get to the Investor Relations page. Other than that, I think the site is open. If you have any questions, feel free to drop me an email. -- Skip Montanaro - skip at pobox.com From skip at pobox.com Mon Jul 31 17:32:13 2006 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 10:32:13 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] OT: weirdly interesting spam subject Message-ID: <17614.8829.624141.342893@montanaro.dyndns.org> Today I got a spam with the subject "speak so chipmunk". A new motto for the group perhaps? Skip