From szybalski at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 00:04:09 2009
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 17:04:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [RFC]ootools with pyuno
In-Reply-To: <804e5c70909011229g7bcad119pc76ebfcae582c3a9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <804e5c70909011229g7bcad119pc76ebfcae582c3a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <804e5c70909011504r6e57a785w1957b7f118b5e035@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Based on some work that was done by
http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/starting-stopping-and-connecting-openoffice-python
I've created a ootools package that allows you to start openoffice in
just 2 lines of python code. It requires openoffice -headless and
oo2.4+. Install it and give it a try.


---How to install it ---

easy_install ootools
or
sudo easy_install ootools

-- How to use it --

python
import ootools
oor=ootools.OORunner()
oor.start()

# open office headless should start on port 8100.
#Check using command: netstat -atpen | grep soffice
#To stop it do:

oor.stop()


-- How to get desktop object --

import ootools
oor=ootools.OORunner()
oor.start()
desktop=oor.connect()
#Do something with the desktop.

#When done
oor.close()


Give it a try and let me know. It works correctly under Debian lenny 32bit.

What os you have system, path to open office,etc.

Thanks,
Lucas



-- 
Using rsync. How to setup rsyncd.
http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/rsync
OpenLdap - From start to finish.
http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/OpenLdap

From bray at sent.com  Sat Sep  5 01:15:53 2009
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 18:15:53 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
Message-ID: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>

Good News, we have secured a great new venue for this month's  
meeting... Tribune Tower.  No details yet; however, this really may be  
the best venue ever. Yay!!!


Topics, Topics, Topics ???  Should we tackle something related to  
journalism? Should we live channel to/from Djangocon... so many  
questions, yet such a great meeting this will be.


Brian Ray




From ccf3 at mindspring.com  Sat Sep  5 03:22:35 2009
From: ccf3 at mindspring.com (Clyde Forrester)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:22:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
References: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
Message-ID: <4AA1BD5B.5060202@mindspring.com>

I've got my "Hello, and Beyond" talk ready to go. It covers simple 
programs in a number of languages. The idea is to cover: 1. How to get 
started. 2. Some early lessons. 3. How languages compare. and 4. Some 
other programming fundamentals.

It will be an ongoing project for me, but it has grown past the minimum 
amount of stuff I need to be able to say that it's ready to go.

Clyde Forrester

Brian Ray wrote:
> Good News, we have secured a great new venue for this month's 
> meeting... Tribune Tower.  No details yet; however, this really may be 
> the best venue ever. Yay!!!
>
>
> Topics, Topics, Topics ???  Should we tackle something related to 
> journalism? Should we live channel to/from Djangocon... so many 
> questions, yet such a great meeting this will be.
>
>
> Brian Ray


From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 04:01:01 2009
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 21:01:01 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4AA1BD5B.5060202@mindspring.com>
References: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
	<4AA1BD5B.5060202@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680909041901q7055a1bao39329d7ff171680b@mail.gmail.com>

I brought it up a few months back but I have been working out a presentation
on Somewhat Advanced SQLAlchemy that I could do.

Dan

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Clyde Forrester <ccf3 at mindspring.com> wrote:

> I've got my "Hello, and Beyond" talk ready to go. It covers simple programs
> in a number of languages. The idea is to cover: 1. How to get started. 2.
> Some early lessons. 3. How languages compare. and 4. Some other programming
> fundamentals.
>
> It will be an ongoing project for me, but it has grown past the minimum
> amount of stuff I need to be able to say that it's ready to go.
>
> Clyde Forrester
>
>
> Brian Ray wrote:
>
>> Good News, we have secured a great new venue for this month's meeting...
>> Tribune Tower.  No details yet; however, this really may be the best venue
>> ever. Yay!!!
>>
>>
>> Topics, Topics, Topics ???  Should we tackle something related to
>> journalism? Should we live channel to/from Djangocon... so many questions,
>> yet such a great meeting this will be.
>>
>>
>> Brian Ray
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From shekay at pobox.com  Mon Sep  7 16:45:10 2009
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 09:45:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
References: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640909070745h3f720f3ah8db0ca7cdea95a81@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Brian Ray<bray at sent.com> wrote:
> Good News, we have secured a great new venue for this month's meeting...
> Tribune Tower. ?No details yet; however, this really may be the best venue
> ever. Yay!!!
>
>
> Topics, Topics, Topics ??? ?Should we tackle something related to
> journalism? Should we live channel to/from Djangocon... so many questions,
> yet such a great meeting this will be.

Did Carl already make arrangements for someone to run video?

If not, do we have anyone who is familiar with setting up the video
equipment? Carl's at djangocon this week. I'll contact some of the
people who helped with pycon but don't regularly attend chipy to see
if they can help.

I don't have a car, but could rent one. I know there is some equipment
held at Thoughtworks, but I don't know who to contact. Cosmin did, but
he's traveling right now.

I've got pager duty this week, so if something critical happens at
work, I can't really help much.


-- 
sheila

From carl at personnelware.com  Mon Sep  7 17:30:20 2009
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:30:20 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640909070745h3f720f3ah8db0ca7cdea95a81@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
	<a68ced640909070745h3f720f3ah8db0ca7cdea95a81@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <549053140909070830g2f9f6aebs2bea2673c84d5bd2@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:45 AM, sheila miguez<shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Brian Ray<bray at sent.com> wrote:
>> Good News, we have secured a great new venue for this month's meeting...
>> Tribune Tower. ?No details yet; however, this really may be the best venue
>> ever. Yay!!!
>>
>>
>> Topics, Topics, Topics ??? ?Should we tackle something related to
>> journalism? Should we live channel to/from Djangocon... so many questions,
>> yet such a great meeting this will be.
>
> Did Carl already make arrangements for someone to run video?

I did not.


-- 
Carl K

From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Mon Sep  7 17:40:33 2009
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:40:33 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <549053140909070830g2f9f6aebs2bea2673c84d5bd2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
	<a68ced640909070745h3f720f3ah8db0ca7cdea95a81@mail.gmail.com>
	<549053140909070830g2f9f6aebs2bea2673c84d5bd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19BB8F8C-D0E4-4FE3-988D-DDEC749EFB81@cs.depaul.edu>

what's on the agenda?

About the previous meeting. Is there a recording of the talk by Dr.  
John Hunter? John, are you a member of this mailing list?

Massimo


On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Carl Karsten wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:45 AM, sheila miguez<shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Brian Ray<bray at sent.com> wrote:
>>> Good News, we have secured a great new venue for this month's  
>>> meeting...
>>> Tribune Tower.  No details yet; however, this really may be the  
>>> best venue
>>> ever. Yay!!!
>>>
>>>
>>> Topics, Topics, Topics ???  Should we tackle something related to
>>> journalism? Should we live channel to/from Djangocon... so many  
>>> questions,
>>> yet such a great meeting this will be.
>>
>> Did Carl already make arrangements for someone to run video?
>
> I did not.
>
>
> -- 
> Carl K
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From shekay at pobox.com  Mon Sep  7 17:55:21 2009
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:55:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <19BB8F8C-D0E4-4FE3-988D-DDEC749EFB81@cs.depaul.edu>
References: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
	<a68ced640909070745h3f720f3ah8db0ca7cdea95a81@mail.gmail.com>
	<549053140909070830g2f9f6aebs2bea2673c84d5bd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<19BB8F8C-D0E4-4FE3-988D-DDEC749EFB81@cs.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <a68ced640909070855r704671d5xb5ade25d3386f32e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Massimo Di
Pierro<mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> what's on the agenda?
>
> About the previous meeting. Is there a recording of the talk by Dr. John
> Hunter? John, are you a member of this mailing list?

yes, but it did not convert to flash, so it is an ogg file. which
means blip will want to run an applet to view it. You can download hte
ogg file if you don't want to do that.

it's at Carl's page. http://carlfk.blip.tv

So is the talk on bcfg2.


-- 
sheila

From joe at germuska.com  Mon Sep  7 19:19:39 2009
From: joe at germuska.com (Joe Germuska)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:19:39 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
References: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
Message-ID: <FDCCD4AF-B615-4E2A-954C-73AAA8BECDB9@germuska.com>

On Sep 4, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Brian Ray wrote:
> Topics, Topics, Topics ???  Should we tackle something related to  
> journalism? Should we live channel to/from Djangocon... so many  
> questions, yet such a great meeting this will be.


Looks like there may be enough stuff, but since we are hosting, I  
could show my work-in-progress porting the Perl Geo::StreetAddress::US  
library to Python.  I would guess it would only be 15 minutes or less,  
but it might be of interest.  The Perl module uses some pretty arcane  
RegExp magic.  And maybe someone will see what I'm missing in the last  
three test cases!

It may also be time to open the discussion for where to take the after- 
event.  The Billy Goat is obvious (and with merit) but I might also  
suggest CND Gyros & Lounge, which has the wood paneling to make the  
Resi's fans feel right at home.

Joe
-- 
Joe Germuska
Joe at Germuska.com * http://blog.germuska.com

"Participation. That's what's gonna save the human race." --Pete Seeger


From smv260985 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 19:40:22 2009
From: smv260985 at gmail.com (Subodhini)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:40:22 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <FDCCD4AF-B615-4E2A-954C-73AAA8BECDB9@germuska.com>
References: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
	<FDCCD4AF-B615-4E2A-954C-73AAA8BECDB9@germuska.com>
Message-ID: <f6e761d70909071040p7bef99b9w918397c2298d5b0f@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Everyone,
I am new to this group and I am glad to meet you here on this platform. I am
interested to meet you in Tribune Tower. Could you guys put any light on
what is the entry fee? Do I need to pay kind of a charge to attend this
meeting?

I would be pleased, if you guys provide me this information.

Thanks & Regards,
Subodhini Chopde

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Joe Germuska <joe at germuska.com> wrote:

> On Sep 4, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Brian Ray wrote:
>
>> Topics, Topics, Topics ???  Should we tackle something related to
>> journalism? Should we live channel to/from Djangocon... so many questions,
>> yet such a great meeting this will be.
>>
>
>
> Looks like there may be enough stuff, but since we are hosting, I could
> show my work-in-progress porting the Perl Geo::StreetAddress::US library to
> Python.  I would guess it would only be 15 minutes or less, but it might be
> of interest.  The Perl module uses some pretty arcane RegExp magic.  And
> maybe someone will see what I'm missing in the last three test cases!
>
> It may also be time to open the discussion for where to take the
> after-event.  The Billy Goat is obvious (and with merit) but I might also
> suggest CND Gyros & Lounge, which has the wood paneling to make the Resi's
> fans feel right at home.
>
> Joe
> --
> Joe Germuska
> Joe at Germuska.com * http://blog.germuska.com
>
> "Participation. That's what's gonna save the human race." --Pete Seeger
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Subodhini Chopde
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From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Mon Sep  7 20:45:03 2009
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 13:45:03 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640909070855r704671d5xb5ade25d3386f32e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
	<a68ced640909070745h3f720f3ah8db0ca7cdea95a81@mail.gmail.com>
	<549053140909070830g2f9f6aebs2bea2673c84d5bd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<19BB8F8C-D0E4-4FE3-988D-DDEC749EFB81@cs.depaul.edu>
	<a68ced640909070855r704671d5xb5ade25d3386f32e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC7FA5C2-75B0-4D60-A015-5FC4BF5F4A74@cs.depaul.edu>

thanks.

Massimo

On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:55 AM, sheila miguez wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Massimo Di
> Pierro<mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> what's on the agenda?
>>
>> About the previous meeting. Is there a recording of the talk by Dr.  
>> John
>> Hunter? John, are you a member of this mailing list?
>
> yes, but it did not convert to flash, so it is an ogg file. which
> means blip will want to run an applet to view it. You can download hte
> ogg file if you don't want to do that.
>
> it's at Carl's page. http://carlfk.blip.tv
>
> So is the talk on bcfg2.
>
>
> -- 
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From robkapteyn at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 21:11:59 2009
From: robkapteyn at gmail.com (Rob Kapteyn)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 14:11:59 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Great New Venue for Sept 10th Monthly Meeting
In-Reply-To: <f6e761d70909071040p7bef99b9w918397c2298d5b0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F9F8153F-DA11-487F-B7FE-18AAB0E597AE@sent.com>
	<FDCCD4AF-B615-4E2A-954C-73AAA8BECDB9@germuska.com>
	<f6e761d70909071040p7bef99b9w918397c2298d5b0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D26EA1C-4241-4118-839F-0CAC976DFD05@gmail.com>

Subodhini :
ChiPy meetings are open to everyone with no charge or membership fee.
Hope to see you there on Thursday !
-Rob

On Sep 7, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Subodhini wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> I am new to this group and I am glad to meet you here on this  
> platform. I am interested to meet you in Tribune Tower. Could you  
> guys put any light on what is the entry fee? Do I need to pay kind  
> of a charge to attend this meeting?
>
> I would be pleased, if you guys provide me this information.
>
> Thanks & Regards,
> Subodhini Chopde
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Joe Germuska <joe at germuska.com>  
> wrote:
> On Sep 4, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Brian Ray wrote:
> Topics, Topics, Topics ???  Should we tackle something related to  
> journalism? Should we live channel to/from Djangocon... so many  
> questions, yet such a great meeting this will be.
>
>
> Looks like there may be enough stuff, but since we are hosting, I  
> could show my work-in-progress porting the Perl  
> Geo::StreetAddress::US library to Python.  I would guess it would  
> only be 15 minutes or less, but it might be of interest.  The Perl  
> module uses some pretty arcane RegExp magic.  And maybe someone will  
> see what I'm missing in the last three test cases!
>
> It may also be time to open the discussion for where to take the  
> after-event.  The Billy Goat is obvious (and with merit) but I might  
> also suggest CND Gyros & Lounge, which has the wood paneling to make  
> the Resi's fans feel right at home.
>
> Joe
> -- 
> Joe Germuska
> Joe at Germuska.com * http://blog.germuska.com
>
> "Participation. That's what's gonna save the human race." --Pete  
> Seeger
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> -- 
> Subodhini Chopde
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From bray at sent.com  Tue Sep  8 16:21:29 2009
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:21:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September Meeting Callout; DjangoCon; October
In-Reply-To: <A9CD35C4-F037-4A93-9C62-CD73D0AB7DAF@sent.com>
References: <A9CD35C4-F037-4A93-9C62-CD73D0AB7DAF@sent.com>
Message-ID: <F9348136-1154-43D2-8B81-B92DF5A31C25@sent.com>


On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Brian Ray wrote:

> So, I open up the floor for Non-Django related topics (even neo- 
> django, if you must) for the September meeting.  Likewise, we are  
> looking for are host for this meeting. So if anyone has an  
> organization capable of handling teams of rowdy Python People,  
> please let us know.  What about plug computing and AMQP? I think  
> Garrett and Pete Fein have some pretty exciting stuff on this and  
> may be ready for September !?


I am putting together the topic lists and I noticed we had some topics  
left from before.  Any comments on these?

Brian Ray




From g at rre.tt  Tue Sep  8 16:28:48 2009
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:28:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September Meeting Callout; DjangoCon; October
In-Reply-To: <F9348136-1154-43D2-8B81-B92DF5A31C25@sent.com>
References: <A9CD35C4-F037-4A93-9C62-CD73D0AB7DAF@sent.com>
	<F9348136-1154-43D2-8B81-B92DF5A31C25@sent.com>
Message-ID: <ce2570e20909080728l8de2a0bge6344e20422c55af@mail.gmail.com>

Pencil me in for "Not using AMQP to super charge your Django apps!"

I need more than 15 minutes though to properly cover not doing this.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Brian Ray<bray at sent.com> wrote:
>
> On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Brian Ray wrote:
>
>> So, I open up the floor for Non-Django related topics (even neo-django, if
>> you must) for the September meeting. ?Likewise, we are looking for are host
>> for this meeting. So if anyone has an organization capable of handling teams
>> of rowdy Python People, please let us know. ?What about plug computing and
>> AMQP? I think Garrett and Pete Fein have some pretty exciting stuff on this
>> and may be ready for September !?
>
>
> I am putting together the topic lists and I noticed we had some topics left
> from before. ?Any comments on these?
>
> Brian Ray
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From pfein at pobox.com  Tue Sep  8 17:06:22 2009
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 10:06:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September Meeting Callout; DjangoCon; October
In-Reply-To: <F9348136-1154-43D2-8B81-B92DF5A31C25@sent.com>
References: <A9CD35C4-F037-4A93-9C62-CD73D0AB7DAF@sent.com>
	<F9348136-1154-43D2-8B81-B92DF5A31C25@sent.com>
Message-ID: <3F2F3D93-5138-4E26-BBFA-6EBF5BAC8A76@pobox.com>

On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:21 AM, Brian Ray wrote:

>
> On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Brian Ray wrote:
>
>> So, I open up the floor for Non-Django related topics (even neo- 
>> django, if you must) for the September meeting.  Likewise, we are  
>> looking for are host for this meeting. So if anyone has an  
>> organization capable of handling teams of rowdy Python People,  
>> please let us know.  What about plug computing and AMQP? I think  
>> Garrett and Pete Fein have some pretty exciting stuff on this and  
>> may be ready for September !?
>
>
> I am putting together the topic lists and I noticed we had some  
> topics left from before.  Any comments on these?

I can't make it this month.

From shekay at pobox.com  Tue Sep  8 17:42:29 2009
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 10:42:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] help pick up vid equipment
Message-ID: <a68ced640909080842n36407a0cv4fd167ade41011a1@mail.gmail.com>

Dudes,

Josh has equipment stored for us at Thoughtworks. I need help getting
it by tomorrow early afternoon (because I also volunteered it for the
Erlang meeting tomorrow at 6, why did I do that?). Anyway, Erlang
meeting is here in the Ogilvy transportation center, and Thoughtworks
is not to far away. Maybe I can cab it. Or rent a car. Or have someone
help.

I don't remember how much equipment is there. If it too much for one
person to carry; I can make multiple trips. If someone would help me I
would be happier.

There is a book reading group for Richard Powers, The Echo Maker
tonight which I would like to go to. He is one of my favorite authors
of all time. If I pick up stuff today it would have to be in time for
being able to make it to Lincoln Square by 7:30.

If you help, Carl will buy you a beer and food (or not a beer if you
don't like it). I would, but I am awkwardly non-talkative* so you
wouldn't enjoy me buying you a beer as much as you would Carl, who is
very gregarious.

* I bought this shirt to help
http://imgs.xkcd.com/store/imgs/just_shy_square_0.png


-- 
sheila

From bray at sent.com  Wed Sep  9 06:02:38 2009
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 23:02:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [ANN] Chicago Python User Group ChiPy September Meeting
Message-ID: <582AEAED-0E84-4730-8BBC-59ADA8241755@sent.com>

Chicago Python User Group
=========================

History, Tradition, Technology and Journalism meet this Thursday at  
one of our nations most historical landmarks, Tribune Tower--right off  
the Chicago River on the Magnificent Mile.  This *new* venue speaks to  
the movement of journalism into technology and technology into Python.

So, this will be one of most interesting venues and will provide a  
solid platform for the best user group meeting in the  history of  
newspapers. We may even channel DjangoCon going on at the same time on  
the West coast.

Bring a friend. This will is going to be great!

RSVP Right NOW to: brian (at) hackerjournalist.net if you even think  
you might make it.


Topics
------

* (30 min) Somewhat Advanced SQLAlchemy  - Daniel Griffin
* (30 min)  Python port of Geo::StreetAddress::US library - Joe Germuska
* (30 min)  "Not using AMQP to super charge your Django apps!"  --  
Garrett Smith
* (15 min)  "Hello, and Beyond" -- Clyde Forrester

When
----

Thursday, September 10th, ~7pm

Location
--------

Tribune Tower,   435 N. Michigan Ave.

RSVP to brian  (at) hackerjournalist.net


Other Meetings
--------------

(before) Kinzie Chop House (some plan to gather around 4:30)
(after) Billy Goat is obvious (and with merit) OR CND Gyros & Lounge


About ChiPy
-----------

ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.

ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce 
 >
Python website: <http://python.org>



From brian at sixthw.com  Thu Sep 10 16:21:00 2009
From: brian at sixthw.com (Brian Boyer)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:21:00 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [ANN] Chicago Python User Group ChiPy September
	Meeting
In-Reply-To: <582AEAED-0E84-4730-8BBC-59ADA8241755@sent.com>
References: <582AEAED-0E84-4730-8BBC-59ADA8241755@sent.com>
Message-ID: <85ab0bd40909100721x5187b724y494422d4c430c895@mail.gmail.com>

Beer, pizza and pop will be served at this evening's ChiPy at the Tribune Tower.

If you think you might attend, please RSVP to brian *at* hackerjournalist.net.

This will be the best meeting, ever.

Hope to see you there!

Brian


On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
> Chicago Python User Group
> =========================
>
> History, Tradition, Technology and Journalism meet this Thursday at one of
> our nations most historical landmarks, Tribune Tower--right off the Chicago
> River on the Magnificent Mile. ?This *new* venue speaks to the movement of
> journalism into technology and technology into Python.
>
> So, this will be one of most interesting venues and will provide a solid
> platform for the best user group meeting in the ?history of newspapers. We
> may even channel DjangoCon going on at the same time on the West coast.
>
> Bring a friend. This will is going to be great!
>
> RSVP Right NOW to: brian (at) hackerjournalist.net if you even think you
> might make it.
>
>
> Topics
> ------
>
> * (30 min) Somewhat Advanced SQLAlchemy ?- Daniel Griffin
> * (30 min) ?Python port of Geo::StreetAddress::US library - Joe Germuska
> * (30 min) ?"Not using AMQP to super charge your Django apps!" ?-- Garrett
> Smith
> * (15 min) ?"Hello, and Beyond" -- Clyde Forrester
>
> When
> ----
>
> Thursday, September 10th, ~7pm
>
> Location
> --------
>
> Tribune Tower, ? 435 N. Michigan Ave.
>
> RSVP to brian ?(at) hackerjournalist.net
>
>
> Other Meetings
> --------------
>
> (before) Kinzie Chop House (some plan to gather around 4:30)
> (after) Billy Goat is obvious (and with merit) OR CND Gyros & Lounge
>
>
> About ChiPy
> -----------
>
> ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
> Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
> Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
> efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.
>
> ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
> ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List:
> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce>
> Python website: <http://python.org>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From brian at sixthw.com  Thu Sep 10 16:27:19 2009
From: brian at sixthw.com (Brian Boyer)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:27:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Hacker wanted: Code in the public interest,
	save journalism, in sunny 	Chicago, Illinois
Message-ID: <85ab0bd40909100727t1956c378w7770ce249e22aba9@mail.gmail.com>

As luck would have it, this evening's ChiPy coincides with a job
opportunity on our team! (And it was just good luck, honest! We were
planning on hosting next month!)

Details here:

http://apps.chicagotribune.com/2009/09/hacker-wanted-code-in-the-public-interest-save-journalism-in-sunny-chicago-illinois/

If this sounds like fun, then you might find it interesting to meet
the folks you'd be working with. :)

Hope to see y'all tonight.

Thanks.

Brian

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 17:55:39 2009
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:55:39 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [ANN] Chicago Python User Group ChiPy September
	Meeting
In-Reply-To: <85ab0bd40909100721x5187b724y494422d4c430c895@mail.gmail.com>
References: <582AEAED-0E84-4730-8BBC-59ADA8241755@sent.com>
	<85ab0bd40909100721x5187b724y494422d4c430c895@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b571660a0909100855i5dd9e014y62fc4d6ff2bea963@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Brian Boyer <brian at sixthw.com> wrote:
> Beer, pizza and pop will be served at this evening's ChiPy at the Tribune Tower.
>
> If you think you might attend, please RSVP to brian *at* hackerjournalist.net.
>
> This will be the best meeting, ever.
>
> Hope to see you there!

Is it going to be obvious where to go when we give our names at the
front desk?  Is there a floor or department we should tell them we're
headed to?

>
> Brian
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
>> Chicago Python User Group
>> =========================
>>
>> History, Tradition, Technology and Journalism meet this Thursday at one of
>> our nations most historical landmarks, Tribune Tower--right off the Chicago
>> River on the Magnificent Mile. ?This *new* venue speaks to the movement of
>> journalism into technology and technology into Python.
>>
>> So, this will be one of most interesting venues and will provide a solid
>> platform for the best user group meeting in the ?history of newspapers. We
>> may even channel DjangoCon going on at the same time on the West coast.
>>
>> Bring a friend. This will is going to be great!
>>
>> RSVP Right NOW to: brian (at) hackerjournalist.net if you even think you
>> might make it.
>>
>>
>> Topics
>> ------
>>
>> * (30 min) Somewhat Advanced SQLAlchemy ?- Daniel Griffin
>> * (30 min) ?Python port of Geo::StreetAddress::US library - Joe Germuska
>> * (30 min) ?"Not using AMQP to super charge your Django apps!" ?-- Garrett
>> Smith
>> * (15 min) ?"Hello, and Beyond" -- Clyde Forrester
>>
>> When
>> ----
>>
>> Thursday, September 10th, ~7pm
>>
>> Location
>> --------
>>
>> Tribune Tower, ? 435 N. Michigan Ave.
>>
>> RSVP to brian ?(at) hackerjournalist.net
>>
>>
>> Other Meetings
>> --------------
>>
>> (before) Kinzie Chop House (some plan to gather around 4:30)
>> (after) Billy Goat is obvious (and with merit) OR CND Gyros & Lounge
>>
>>
>> About ChiPy
>> -----------
>>
>> ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
>> Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
>> Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
>> efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.
>>
>> ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
>> ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>> ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List:
>> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce>
>> Python website: <http://python.org>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From brian at sixthw.com  Thu Sep 10 18:03:43 2009
From: brian at sixthw.com (Brian Boyer)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:03:43 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [ANN] Chicago Python User Group ChiPy September
	Meeting
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0909100855i5dd9e014y62fc4d6ff2bea963@mail.gmail.com>
References: <582AEAED-0E84-4730-8BBC-59ADA8241755@sent.com> 
	<85ab0bd40909100721x5187b724y494422d4c430c895@mail.gmail.com> 
	<b571660a0909100855i5dd9e014y62fc4d6ff2bea963@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85ab0bd40909100903h6a2f2010jac84f00bf3c5cb69@mail.gmail.com>

The folks at the front desk should point you in the right direction.
The meeting room is on Lower Level 2 -- we'll have signs up to make
sure you know where to go. b

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Kumar McMillan
<kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Brian Boyer <brian at sixthw.com> wrote:
>> Beer, pizza and pop will be served at this evening's ChiPy at the Tribune Tower.
>>
>> If you think you might attend, please RSVP to brian *at* hackerjournalist.net.
>>
>> This will be the best meeting, ever.
>>
>> Hope to see you there!
>
> Is it going to be obvious where to go when we give our names at the
> front desk? ?Is there a floor or department we should tell them we're
> headed to?
>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
>>> Chicago Python User Group
>>> =========================
>>>
>>> History, Tradition, Technology and Journalism meet this Thursday at one of
>>> our nations most historical landmarks, Tribune Tower--right off the Chicago
>>> River on the Magnificent Mile. ?This *new* venue speaks to the movement of
>>> journalism into technology and technology into Python.
>>>
>>> So, this will be one of most interesting venues and will provide a solid
>>> platform for the best user group meeting in the ?history of newspapers. We
>>> may even channel DjangoCon going on at the same time on the West coast.
>>>
>>> Bring a friend. This will is going to be great!
>>>
>>> RSVP Right NOW to: brian (at) hackerjournalist.net if you even think you
>>> might make it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Topics
>>> ------
>>>
>>> * (30 min) Somewhat Advanced SQLAlchemy ?- Daniel Griffin
>>> * (30 min) ?Python port of Geo::StreetAddress::US library - Joe Germuska
>>> * (30 min) ?"Not using AMQP to super charge your Django apps!" ?-- Garrett
>>> Smith
>>> * (15 min) ?"Hello, and Beyond" -- Clyde Forrester
>>>
>>> When
>>> ----
>>>
>>> Thursday, September 10th, ~7pm
>>>
>>> Location
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Tribune Tower, ? 435 N. Michigan Ave.
>>>
>>> RSVP to brian ?(at) hackerjournalist.net
>>>
>>>
>>> Other Meetings
>>> --------------
>>>
>>> (before) Kinzie Chop House (some plan to gather around 4:30)
>>> (after) Billy Goat is obvious (and with merit) OR CND Gyros & Lounge
>>>
>>>
>>> About ChiPy
>>> -----------
>>>
>>> ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
>>> Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
>>> Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
>>> efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.
>>>
>>> ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
>>> ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>> ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List:
>>> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce>
>>> Python website: <http://python.org>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 19:52:09 2009
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:52:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python web
	framework, Tornado
Message-ID: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>

This may be of interest to fellow Chipynauts:
http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=301

"FriendFeed's web server is a relatively simple, non-blocking web
server written in Python. The FriendFeed application is written using
a web framework that looks a bit like web.py or Google's webapp, but
with additional tools and optimizations to take advantage of the
non-blocking web server and tools."

Docs: http://www.tornadoweb.org/documentation

It uses epoll (from Linux kernel), interesting.

From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Sep 11 07:32:04 2009
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:32:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] SQLAlchemy presentation
In-Reply-To: <3db160680907092009q3f29ac73qb9196b99b6c70b75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3db160680907092009q3f29ac73qb9196b99b6c70b75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BF2C7D74-BA46-4739-BF22-ABD652D599C8@cs.depaul.edu>

Hi Daniel,

thank you for your SQLAlchemy presentation. It was inspiring. In fact,  
I did not know SQLAlchemy could handle "on delete cascade" with sqlite.
This is an important feature that web2py (currently) does not have. So  
I have now implemented this feature in web2py and it is in trunk.
Here is an example:

python web2py.py -S welcome -M
 >>> db.define_table('a', Field('name'))
 >>> db.define_table('b', Field('name'),  
Field('a',db.a,ondelete='CASCADE'))
 >>> ida = db.a.insert(name='xxx')
 >>> db.b.insert(name='yyy', a=ida)
1
 >>> db(db.a.id == ida).delete()
1

From robkapteyn at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 18:59:11 2009
From: robkapteyn at gmail.com (Rob Kapteyn)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:59:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python a Weekend language ?
Message-ID: <B9DC6D06-7D6E-45CA-BE84-7AA1E30E538E@gmail.com>

Here is a link to the Slashdot article I mentioned last night, titled:
"C# and Java Weekday Languages, Python and Ruby For Weekends?"

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/08/15/1849217/C-and-Java-Weekday-Languages-Python-and-Ruby-For-Weekends

-Rob
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From jsudlow at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 20:39:42 2009
From: jsudlow at gmail.com (Jon Sudlow)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:39:42 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python a Weekend language ?
In-Reply-To: <B9DC6D06-7D6E-45CA-BE84-7AA1E30E538E@gmail.com>
References: <B9DC6D06-7D6E-45CA-BE84-7AA1E30E538E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eb9a21ad0909111139t578061b6gd1645133d5ce8a1@mail.gmail.com>

> I hope this will change in the future! After writing in IBM system/370
> assembler, I can really appreciate what a joy python/ruby really are. My
> humble poker playing robot is almost all python, with only object c and c++
> used for hooking the remote processes. Will it ever be possible for python
> to control the hardware and memory like C++ does?
>

-Jon

>
>
> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/08/15/1849217/C-and-Java-Weekday-Languages-Python-and-Ruby-For-Weekends
>
> -Rob
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From shekay at pobox.com  Fri Sep 11 20:41:05 2009
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:41:05 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] video apologies
Message-ID: <a68ced640909111141g2708ca19kbcedac9190f70fae@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for not showing up last night to record.  I did get generous
offers to help carry equipment, and thanks for those.

but, all of the people who normally record events were either out of
town, or unavailable. Due to being on pager duty, I didn't want to run
things all by myself hence canceled.

-- 
sheila

From g at rre.tt  Fri Sep 11 23:35:14 2009
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:35:14 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] AMQP links
Message-ID: <ce2570e20909111435m6ff4a1eev7d4dc734f3229cd1@mail.gmail.com>

Some folks asked me for some of the AMQP references from last night.

AMQP specs:

  http://www.amqp.org

Apache Qpid:

  http://qpid.apache.org

RabbitMQ:

  http://www.rabbitmq.com

Python AMQP (0.8, works with Rabbit):

  http://code.google.com/p/py-amqplib

Ah, heck -- this has got everything you need:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Message_Queuing_Protocol

If anyone's got any questions, just shoot me an email off list.

Garrett

From bray at sent.com  Sun Sep 13 02:30:56 2009
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 19:30:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
Message-ID: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>


Any thoughts on this...

     http://www.tornadoweb.org/

 From http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/145214 Bret Taylor,  
Facebook's Director of Products:

     """Tornado also offers much higher performance than existing  
Python web frameworks. A multiple process Tornado server on a 4 core  
2.4Ghz AMD Opteron system managed 8213 web requests per second, while  
a single threaded version managed 3353. This compares with Django at  
2223 requests per second, Web.py at 2066 and CherryPy at 785."""

-- Brian Ray




From maney at two14.net  Sun Sep 13 07:28:54 2009
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 00:28:54 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
In-Reply-To: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
References: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
Message-ID: <20090913052854.GA25938@furrr.two14.net>

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 07:30:56PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
> Any thoughts on this...
>
>     http://www.tornadoweb.org/
>
> From http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/145214 Bret Taylor,  
> Facebook's Director of Products:
>
>     """Tornado also offers much higher performance than existing Python 
> web frameworks. A multiple process Tornado server on a 4 core 2.4Ghz AMD 
> Opteron system managed 8213 web requests per second, while a single 
> threaded version managed 3353. This compares with Django at 2223 requests 
> per second, Web.py at 2066 and CherryPy at 785."""

http://bret.appspot.com/entry/tornado-web-server

http://www.apparatusproject.org/blog/2009/09/twisted-web-vs-tornado-performance-test/

http://glyph.twistedmatrix.com/2009/09/what-i-wish-tornado-were.html

http://dustin.github.com/2009/09/12/tornado.html

hackernews: who needs slashdot except for games and celebrity news, now?

-- 
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea,
never regains its original dimensions.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes


From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Sun Sep 13 08:42:10 2009
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:42:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
In-Reply-To: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
References: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
Message-ID: <3B1F936D-6577-4B31-A534-544B91013BB8@cs.depaul.edu>

Is the web server the bottle neck in web applications? My experience  
is that the bottle neck is the database.

My understanding is that Tornado is not a multithreaded server. It can  
accept concurrent requests but executes them sequentially for each  
process. It is know that this kind of design is fast because there are  
no threads but it is not appropriate for all web apps in particular  
not if the requests may take time to run. It works great in "hello  
world" type of benchmarks.

Another issue is that Tornado is probably using 4 python instances  
thus taking advantages of the 4 cores. The Django and CherryPy are  
probably not doing that because they would require a load balancer  
like Pound. I doubt they did so I am not convinced they are comparing  
apples to apples.

Am I wrong?

Massimo

On Sep 12, 2009, at 7:30 PM, Brian Ray wrote:

>
> Any thoughts on this...
>
>     http://www.tornadoweb.org/
>
> From http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/145214 Bret Taylor,
> Facebook's Director of Products:
>
>     """Tornado also offers much higher performance than existing
> Python web frameworks. A multiple process Tornado server on a 4 core
> 2.4Ghz AMD Opteron system managed 8213 web requests per second, while
> a single threaded version managed 3353. This compares with Django at
> 2223 requests per second, Web.py at 2066 and CherryPy at 785."""
>
> -- Brian Ray
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From maney at two14.net  Sun Sep 13 16:10:24 2009
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 09:10:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
In-Reply-To: <20090913052854.GA25938@furrr.two14.net>
References: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
	<20090913052854.GA25938@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <20090913141024.GA14910@furrr.two14.net>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:28:54AM -0500, Martin Maney wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 07:30:56PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
> > Any thoughts on this...
> >
> >     http://www.tornadoweb.org/

Apparently Python hackers labor through the night to bring us yet more
news and benchmarks.  (hmmmm... lies, news and benchmarks?  just
free-associating while the caffeine osmoses)

http://antoniocangiano.com/2009/09/13/benchmarking-tornado-vs-twisted-web-vs-tornado-on-twisted-vs-unicorn/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYubpuIe3cw  (tornado vs. rails: pun)

...and the race continues.

-- 
"What's so funny?  That I'm sitting on a deserted beach at night,
nibbling at gourmet meals, and rereading every book I've ever loved?
Can you think of anything more worthwhile?"  -- Michael Flynn


From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 19:56:21 2009
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 12:56:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
In-Reply-To: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
References: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
Message-ID: <b571660a0909131056w11e6cec0qd32892f5cb3d5913@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
>
> Any thoughts on this...
>
> ? ?http://www.tornadoweb.org/
>
> From http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/145214 Bret Taylor,
> Facebook's Director of Products:
>
> ? ?"""Tornado also offers much higher performance than existing Python web
> frameworks. A multiple process Tornado server on a 4 core 2.4Ghz AMD Opteron
> system managed 8213 web requests per second, while a single threaded version
> managed 3353. This compares with Django at 2223 requests per second, Web.py
> at 2066 and CherryPy at 785."""


It's pretty interesting since event based architecture performs well.
However, I believe it won't be possible to simply "drop in" 3rd party
modules because most are not written as non-blocking code.  After a
brief glance at the Tornado source it seems that they have written a
lot of custom low level components to account for this.  I assume part
of their open source initiative is to begin building their empire of
non-blocking Python libraries.  Hmm, this is pretty much what Twisted
had to do as well.  So, unfortunately, Tornado may turn into yet
another isolated silo of Python libraries.

>
> -- Brian Ray
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 20:51:02 2009
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:51:02 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Best practices for this concurrent problem?
Message-ID: <3db160680909131151j6e992cc4nbf73bcf2c250ec1c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I have been playing with a program which essentially reads some elements
from a database then starts a "thread" for each element, this can be a few
elements or thousands. Inside that thread it does some processing then
starts n sockets to do tasks. The life of the thread is generally a few
seconds but can stretch up to hours or even days.

I think my options are to use threading, multi-processing or some sort of
async thing like twisted. I am really unsure which one to choose.  Here are
the results of my testing so far:

threads - GIL death when I spin up a ton of threads, I can limit how many
threads I make but I know I am not getting anywhere near full utilization of
the box.

processes - I dont think its a good idea to make processes that are short
lived, it seems too expensive. This is even worse on windows.

async - I would have to re-factor to make this work and havent tried yet.

summary - What is the best way to deal with (sometimes) large numbers of
"threads" that do a small amount of processing and a large amount of socket
io?

Thanks,
Dan
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From pfein at pobox.com  Mon Sep 14 01:24:41 2009
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:24:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Best practices for this concurrent problem?
In-Reply-To: <3db160680909131151j6e992cc4nbf73bcf2c250ec1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3db160680909131151j6e992cc4nbf73bcf2c250ec1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3769F47-9A65-43E0-A5BD-EE45B5535EEB@pobox.com>

On Sep 13, 2009, at 1:51 PM, Daniel Griffin wrote:

> processes - I dont think its a good idea to make processes that are  
> short lived, it seems too expensive. This is even worse on windows.

I don't know diddly about windows, but the process creation overhead  
on Linux is pretty minimal - the differences b/w threads & processes  
are slightly.

> async - I would have to re-factor to make this work and havent tried  
> yet.
>
> summary - What is the best way to deal with (sometimes) large  
> numbers of "threads" that do a small amount of processing and a  
> large amount of socket io?

Sounds like the typical case for async, actually, but since I don't  
know anything about your problem, I can't really say.  Async's also a  
pit of a pain to write/read/maintain, as you mention.

Have you thought about refactoring to use long-lived processes/ 
threads?  A better design is often to create workers which receive  
tasks (typically off a queue) and process them one at a time.  This  
usually gives better results than spawning a new thread for each task.

--Pete

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 01:50:17 2009
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:50:17 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Best practices for this concurrent problem?
In-Reply-To: <C3769F47-9A65-43E0-A5BD-EE45B5535EEB@pobox.com>
References: <3db160680909131151j6e992cc4nbf73bcf2c250ec1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3769F47-9A65-43E0-A5BD-EE45B5535EEB@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680909131650i748266b3ibbc4e3e80fb5c0ae@mail.gmail.com>

I didnt even see the multiprocessing Pool class. I think that will work
perfectly. The big difference in overhead for Processes is that you need to
re-init certain things for each process which is a lot of work. Since
Windows doesn't have fork it actually just calls your program again and gets
to the point where you make a process which is pretty rough.

Dan

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:

> On Sep 13, 2009, at 1:51 PM, Daniel Griffin wrote:
>
>  processes - I dont think its a good idea to make processes that are short
>> lived, it seems too expensive. This is even worse on windows.
>>
>
> I don't know diddly about windows, but the process creation overhead on
> Linux is pretty minimal - the differences b/w threads & processes are
> slightly.
>
>  async - I would have to re-factor to make this work and havent tried yet.
>>
>> summary - What is the best way to deal with (sometimes) large numbers of
>> "threads" that do a small amount of processing and a large amount of socket
>> io?
>>
>
> Sounds like the typical case for async, actually, but since I don't know
> anything about your problem, I can't really say.  Async's also a pit of a
> pain to write/read/maintain, as you mention.
>
> Have you thought about refactoring to use long-lived processes/threads?  A
> better design is often to create workers which receive tasks (typically off
> a queue) and process them one at a time.  This usually gives better results
> than spawning a new thread for each task.
>
> --Pete
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 20:32:54 2009
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:32:54 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Day of Cloud
Message-ID: <3096c19d0909141132h67e03a3al1336155731c7bc7a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

There's a conference coming up on October 16th aimed at developers
using big fluffy clouds.  AppEngine will be there, and I'll be talking
about Amazon, with a Python twist.  The website for the conference is
at http://www.dayofcloud.com/

Chris

From g at rre.tt  Tue Sep 15 03:11:50 2009
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:11:50 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>

I'm maintaining an informal list of benchmark results of a simple "Hello
World" style app for various web servers. I just updated the list to include
Tornado.

These benchmarks are part of a web framework I'm working on in Erlang called
Landshark. The app must print the test "You're that clever shark, aren't
you" in either HTML or plain text. The numbers are from Apache Benchmark
running for 10 seconds under different concurrency levels.

The numbers below are not rigorous by any stretch. In fact, please consider
them, officially, damned lies.

Based on these lies, however, here's my personal takeaway, at least as far
as the Python servers are concerned:

   - CherryPy is very, very fast and has the upside of being threaded, which
   means you don't need to deal with weird async/event based models (see
   Kumar's post to this thread, which is spot on)

   - Fapws, which spells "Fast Asynchronous Python Web Server" is very, very
   fast indeed, as it's mostly written in C -- however it's event based (used
   libev) so beware of blocking operations (e.g. network or file access) and
   slow Python code, which will bring your numbers down to numbers to mortal
   levels

   - Tornado is an impressive contender here -- solid throughput even at
   high levels of concurrent requests; however, it's only slightly faster than
   CherryPy within "reasonable" levels of concurrent requests (10,000 or less)
   and, if you're a speed freak, you should consider Fapws, which blew the
   field away

Obviously there's a lot behind the numbers, such as configuration, system
under test, etc. Like I said, they're lies. If you have questions or, in
particular, can help me make these go faster with smarter configuration,
I'll happily rerun and publish. If you can make WEBrick (a Ruby server) go
faster than my friend's golden retriever, which is trained to serve dynamic
HTML, I'll buy you a beer.

As a final note, the tests themselves will be available with the Landshark
download, once that's posted, so people can re-run the tests for themselves.
Of course, it's not that hard to run ab against a hello world app.

RPS = requests per second
Time = average time in milliseconds to server each request
Benchmark = `ab -t 10 -c <number of concurrent requests>-r http://localhost`

100 Concurrent Requests
-----------------------
=============== ====== ===========
App Server         RPS   Time (ms)
=============== ====== ===========
Fapws             7174          14
Landshark         4479          22
PHP-5             4191          24
Tomcat 6          3554          28
Tornado           2641          38
CherryPy WSGI     2102          48
Jetty 6            937         107
Django WSGI        785         129
WEBrick             43        2350
=============== ====== ===========

1,000 Concurrent Requests
-------------------------
=============== ====== ===========
App Server         RPS   Time (ms)
=============== ====== ===========
Fapws             5359         187
Landshark         4477         224
PHP 5             3062         345
Tomcat 6          3014         345
Tornado           2452         409
CherryPy WSGI     2126         470
Jetty 6           1095         949
Django WSGI        953        1057
WEBrick             50       20607
=============== ====== ===========

10,000 Concurrent Requests
--------------------------
=============== ====== ===========
App Server         RPS   Time (ms)
=============== ====== ===========
Fapws             5213        1920
Landshark         4239        2361
Tomcat 6          2369        4752
Tornado           2265        4439
PHP 5             2239        4282
CherryPy WSGI     1731        5786
Jetty 6            794       13210
Django WSGI        890       12330
WEBrick             84      163425
=============== ====== ===========

20,000 Concurrent Requests
--------------------------
=============== ====== ===========
App Server         RPS   Time (ms)
=============== ====== ===========
Fapws             4788        4178
Landshark         2936        6823
Tornado           2153        9315
PHP 5             1728       11578
Tomcat 6          1362       15102
CherryPy WSGI     1294       15477
Django WSGI        790       27633
Jetty 6            616       32492
WEBrick             63      462464
=============== ====== ===========


On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Kumar McMillan <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com>
wrote:
> This may be of interest to fellow Chipynauts:
> http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=301
>
> "FriendFeed's web server is a relatively simple, non-blocking web
> server written in Python. The FriendFeed application is written using
> a web framework that looks a bit like web.py or Google's webapp, but
> with additional tools and optimizations to take advantage of the
> non-blocking web server and tools."
>
> Docs: http://www.tornadoweb.org/documentation
>
> It uses epoll (from Linux kernel), interesting.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 03:52:09 2009
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:52:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b571660a0909141852i78ef0cbcs4ab1c2860a4d4783@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 8:11 PM, Garrett Smith <g at rre.tt> wrote:
> I'm maintaining an informal list of benchmark results of a simple "Hello
> World" style app for various web servers. I just updated the list to include
> Tornado.
>
> These benchmarks are part of a web framework I'm working on in Erlang called
> Landshark. The app must print the test "You're that clever shark, aren't
> you" in either HTML or plain text. The numbers are from Apache Benchmark
> running for 10 seconds under different concurrency levels.
>
> The numbers below are not rigorous by any stretch. In fact, please consider
> them, officially, damned lies.
>
> Based on these lies, however, here's my personal takeaway, at least as far
> as the Python servers are concerned:
>
> CherryPy is very, very fast and has the upside of being threaded, which
> means you don't need to deal with weird async/event based models (see
> Kumar's post to this thread, which is spot on)
>
> Fapws, which spells "Fast Asynchronous Python Web Server" is very, very fast
> indeed, as it's mostly written in C -- however it's event based (used libev)
> so beware of blocking operations (e.g. network or file access) and slow
> Python code, which will bring your numbers down to numbers to mortal levels
>
> Tornado is an impressive contender here -- solid throughput even at high
> levels of concurrent requests; however, it's only slightly faster than
> CherryPy within "reasonable" levels of concurrent requests (10,000 or less)
> and, if you're a speed freak, you should consider Fapws, which blew the
> field away
>
> Obviously there's a lot behind the numbers, such as configuration, system
> under test, etc. Like I said, they're lies. If you have questions or, in
> particular, can help me make these go faster with smarter configuration,
> I'll happily rerun and publish. If you can make WEBrick (a Ruby server) go
> faster than my friend's golden retriever, which is trained to serve dynamic
> HTML, I'll buy you a beer.

Benchmarking Ruby in WEBRick is like benchmarking SimpleHTTPServer in
Python.  In other words, it's not really fair :)  You should set up
Phusion Passenger in Apache.  It's just as easy as Django / mod_wsgi
http://hackd.thrivesmarthq.com/how-to-setup-a-linux-server-for-ruby-on-rails-with-github-and-phusion-passenger
(you can probably ignore the SSH config)

btw, you don't need to use Rails for your example.  You can just make
a Rack application:
http://www.modrails.com/documentation/Users%20guide.html#_deploying_a_rack_based_ruby_application
 Rack is more or less Python's WSGI 2.0 ported to Ruby so it will be
familiar.

>
> As a final note, the tests themselves will be available with the Landshark
> download, once that's posted, so people can re-run the tests for themselves.
> Of course, it's not that hard to run ab against a hello world app.
>
> RPS = requests per second
> Time = average time in milliseconds to server each request
> Benchmark = `ab -t 10 -c <number of concurrent requests>-r http://localhost`
>
> 100 Concurrent Requests
> -----------------------
> =============== ====== ===========
> App Server ? ? ? ? RPS ? Time (ms)
> =============== ====== ===========
> Fapws ? ? ? ? ? ? 7174 ? ? ? ? ?14
> Landshark ? ? ? ? 4479 ? ? ? ?? 22
> PHP-5 ? ? ? ? ? ? 4191 ? ? ? ?? 24
> Tomcat 6 ? ? ? ? ?3554 ? ? ? ? ?28
> Tornado ? ? ? ? ? 2641 ? ? ? ? ?38
> CherryPy WSGI ? ? 2102 ? ? ? ?? 48
> Jetty 6 ? ? ? ? ? ?937 ? ? ? ? 107
> Django WSGI ? ? ? ?785 ? ? ? ? 129
> WEBrick ? ? ? ? ? ? 43 ? ? ?? 2350
> =============== ====== ===========
>
> 1,000 Concurrent Requests
> -------------------------
> =============== ====== ===========
> App Server ? ? ? ? RPS ? Time (ms)
> =============== ====== ===========
> Fapws ? ? ? ? ? ? 5359 ? ? ? ? 187
> Landshark ? ? ? ? 4477 ? ? ? ? 224
> PHP 5 ? ? ? ? ? ? 3062 ? ? ? ? 345
> Tomcat 6 ? ? ? ? ?3014 ? ? ? ? 345
> Tornado ? ? ? ? ? 2452 ? ? ? ? 409
> CherryPy WSGI ? ? 2126 ? ? ? ? 470
> Jetty 6 ? ? ? ? ? 1095 ? ? ? ? 949
> Django WSGI ? ? ? ?953 ? ? ? ?1057
> WEBrick ? ? ? ? ? ? 50 ? ? ? 20607
> =============== ====== ===========
>
> 10,000 Concurrent Requests
> --------------------------
> =============== ====== ===========
> App Server ? ? ? ? RPS ? Time (ms)
> =============== ====== ===========
> Fapws ? ? ? ? ? ? 5213 ? ? ? ?1920
> Landshark ? ? ? ? 4239 ? ? ? ?2361
> Tomcat 6 ? ? ? ? ?2369 ? ? ? ?4752
> Tornado ? ? ? ? ? 2265 ? ? ? ?4439
> PHP 5 ? ? ? ? ? ? 2239 ? ? ? ?4282
> CherryPy WSGI ? ? 1731 ? ? ? ?5786
> Jetty 6 ? ? ? ? ? ?794 ? ? ? 13210
> Django WSGI ? ? ? ?890 ? ? ? 12330
> WEBrick ? ? ? ? ? ? 84 ? ? ?163425
> =============== ====== ===========
>
> 20,000 Concurrent Requests
> --------------------------
> =============== ====== ===========
> App Server ? ? ? ? RPS ? Time (ms)
> =============== ====== ===========
> Fapws ? ? ? ? ? ? 4788 ? ? ? ?4178
> Landshark ? ? ? ? 2936 ? ? ? ?6823
> Tornado ? ? ? ? ? 2153 ? ? ? ?9315
> PHP 5 ? ? ? ? ? ? 1728 ? ? ? 11578
> Tomcat 6 ? ? ? ? ?1362 ? ? ? 15102
> CherryPy WSGI ? ? 1294 ? ? ? 15477
> Django WSGI ? ? ? ?790 ? ? ? 27633
> Jetty 6 ? ? ? ? ? ?616 ? ? ? 32492
> WEBrick ? ? ? ? ? ? 63 ? ? ?462464
> =============== ====== ===========
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Kumar McMillan <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> This may be of interest to fellow Chipynauts:
>> http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=301
>>
>> "FriendFeed's web server is a relatively simple, non-blocking web
>> server written in Python. The FriendFeed application is written using
>> a web framework that looks a bit like web.py or Google's webapp, but
>> with additional tools and optimizations to take advantage of the
>> non-blocking web server and tools."
>>
>> Docs: http://www.tornadoweb.org/documentation
>>
>> It uses epoll (from Linux kernel), interesting.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 04:25:10 2009
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:25:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0909141925k418412fcub0739523ae7f92f2@mail.gmail.com>

This is interesting Garrett...thanks.

Did you use the stdlib WSGI runner?  Or are the wsgi apps behind mod_wsgi?

Chris

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 8:11 PM, Garrett Smith <g at rre.tt> wrote:
> I'm maintaining an informal list of benchmark results of a simple "Hello
> World" style app for various web servers. I just updated the list to include
> Tornado.
>
> These benchmarks are part of a web framework I'm working on in Erlang called
> Landshark. The app must print the test "You're that clever shark, aren't
> you" in either HTML or plain text. The numbers are from Apache Benchmark
> running for 10 seconds under different concurrency levels.
>
> The numbers below are not rigorous by any stretch. In fact, please consider
> them, officially, damned lies.
>
> Based on these lies, however, here's my personal takeaway, at least as far
> as the Python servers are concerned:
>
> CherryPy is very, very fast and has the upside of being threaded, which
> means you don't need to deal with weird async/event based models (see
> Kumar's post to this thread, which is spot on)
>
> Fapws, which spells "Fast Asynchronous Python Web Server" is very, very fast
> indeed, as it's mostly written in C -- however it's event based (used libev)
> so beware of blocking operations (e.g. network or file access) and slow
> Python code, which will bring your numbers down to numbers to mortal levels
>
> Tornado is an impressive contender here -- solid throughput even at high
> levels of concurrent requests; however, it's only slightly faster than
> CherryPy within "reasonable" levels of concurrent requests (10,000 or less)
> and, if you're a speed freak, you should consider Fapws, which blew the
> field away
>
> Obviously there's a lot behind the numbers, such as configuration, system
> under test, etc. Like I said, they're lies. If you have questions or, in
> particular, can help me make these go faster with smarter configuration,
> I'll happily rerun and publish. If you can make WEBrick (a Ruby server) go
> faster than my friend's golden retriever, which is trained to serve dynamic
> HTML, I'll buy you a beer.
>
> As a final note, the tests themselves will be available with the Landshark
> download, once that's posted, so people can re-run the tests for themselves.
> Of course, it's not that hard to run ab against a hello world app.
>
> RPS = requests per second
> Time = average time in milliseconds to server each request
> Benchmark = `ab -t 10 -c <number of concurrent requests>-r http://localhost`
>
> 100 Concurrent Requests
> -----------------------
> =============== ====== ===========
> App Server ? ? ? ? RPS ? Time (ms)
> =============== ====== ===========
> Fapws ? ? ? ? ? ? 7174 ? ? ? ? ?14
> Landshark ? ? ? ? 4479 ? ? ? ?? 22
> PHP-5 ? ? ? ? ? ? 4191 ? ? ? ?? 24
> Tomcat 6 ? ? ? ? ?3554 ? ? ? ? ?28
> Tornado ? ? ? ? ? 2641 ? ? ? ? ?38
> CherryPy WSGI ? ? 2102 ? ? ? ?? 48
> Jetty 6 ? ? ? ? ? ?937 ? ? ? ? 107
> Django WSGI ? ? ? ?785 ? ? ? ? 129
> WEBrick ? ? ? ? ? ? 43 ? ? ?? 2350
> =============== ====== ===========
>
> 1,000 Concurrent Requests
> -------------------------
> =============== ====== ===========
> App Server ? ? ? ? RPS ? Time (ms)
> =============== ====== ===========
> Fapws ? ? ? ? ? ? 5359 ? ? ? ? 187
> Landshark ? ? ? ? 4477 ? ? ? ? 224
> PHP 5 ? ? ? ? ? ? 3062 ? ? ? ? 345
> Tomcat 6 ? ? ? ? ?3014 ? ? ? ? 345
> Tornado ? ? ? ? ? 2452 ? ? ? ? 409
> CherryPy WSGI ? ? 2126 ? ? ? ? 470
> Jetty 6 ? ? ? ? ? 1095 ? ? ? ? 949
> Django WSGI ? ? ? ?953 ? ? ? ?1057
> WEBrick ? ? ? ? ? ? 50 ? ? ? 20607
> =============== ====== ===========
>
> 10,000 Concurrent Requests
> --------------------------
> =============== ====== ===========
> App Server ? ? ? ? RPS ? Time (ms)
> =============== ====== ===========
> Fapws ? ? ? ? ? ? 5213 ? ? ? ?1920
> Landshark ? ? ? ? 4239 ? ? ? ?2361
> Tomcat 6 ? ? ? ? ?2369 ? ? ? ?4752
> Tornado ? ? ? ? ? 2265 ? ? ? ?4439
> PHP 5 ? ? ? ? ? ? 2239 ? ? ? ?4282
> CherryPy WSGI ? ? 1731 ? ? ? ?5786
> Jetty 6 ? ? ? ? ? ?794 ? ? ? 13210
> Django WSGI ? ? ? ?890 ? ? ? 12330
> WEBrick ? ? ? ? ? ? 84 ? ? ?163425
> =============== ====== ===========
>
> 20,000 Concurrent Requests
> --------------------------
> =============== ====== ===========
> App Server ? ? ? ? RPS ? Time (ms)
> =============== ====== ===========
> Fapws ? ? ? ? ? ? 4788 ? ? ? ?4178
> Landshark ? ? ? ? 2936 ? ? ? ?6823
> Tornado ? ? ? ? ? 2153 ? ? ? ?9315
> PHP 5 ? ? ? ? ? ? 1728 ? ? ? 11578
> Tomcat 6 ? ? ? ? ?1362 ? ? ? 15102
> CherryPy WSGI ? ? 1294 ? ? ? 15477
> Django WSGI ? ? ? ?790 ? ? ? 27633
> Jetty 6 ? ? ? ? ? ?616 ? ? ? 32492
> WEBrick ? ? ? ? ? ? 63 ? ? ?462464
> =============== ====== ===========
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Kumar McMillan <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> This may be of interest to fellow Chipynauts:
>> http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?blog=1&story=301
>>
>> "FriendFeed's web server is a relatively simple, non-blocking web
>> server written in Python. The FriendFeed application is written using
>> a web framework that looks a bit like web.py or Google's webapp, but
>> with additional tools and optimizations to take advantage of the
>> non-blocking web server and tools."
>>
>> Docs: http://www.tornadoweb.org/documentation
>>
>> It uses epoll (from Linux kernel), interesting.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From g at rre.tt  Tue Sep 15 04:36:09 2009
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:36:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0909141925k418412fcub0739523ae7f92f2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0909141925k418412fcub0739523ae7f92f2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ce2570e20909141936n40e92e5alc9f9722a07617007@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com>wrote:

> This is interesting Garrett...thanks.
>
> Did you use the stdlib WSGI runner?  Or are the wsgi apps behind mod_wsgi?
>
> Chris
>

With the exception of PHP, which was run under Apache MPM + mod_php,
everything was run as a standalone server.
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From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 05:22:55 2009
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:22:55 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <ce2570e20909141936n40e92e5alc9f9722a07617007@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0909141925k418412fcub0739523ae7f92f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141936n40e92e5alc9f9722a07617007@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b571660a0909142022p3d324cfer6ebfde8584c53830@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Garrett Smith <g at rre.tt> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> This is interesting Garrett...thanks.
>>
>> Did you use the stdlib WSGI runner? ?Or are the wsgi apps behind mod_wsgi?
>>
>> Chris
>
> With the exception of PHP, which was run under Apache MPM + mod_php,
> everything was run as a standalone server.

Oh, I thought the Django one was done with mod_wsgi.  Hmm, I see what
you are trying to do.  I don't know of any pure Ruby web server that
anyone would ever consider using in production.  I don't think there
is one.  I bet there is a pure PHP web server though.  you didn't look
hard enough!  http://sourceforge.net/projects/astahttpd/  Bam!!!
http://webscripts.softpedia.com/script/PHP-Clases/bib-server-50643.html
And Bam again!  You can thank me later.

>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From maney at two14.net  Tue Sep 15 05:38:55 2009
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:38:55 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Best practices for this concurrent problem?
In-Reply-To: <3db160680909131151j6e992cc4nbf73bcf2c250ec1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3db160680909131151j6e992cc4nbf73bcf2c250ec1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090915033855.GA3572@furrr.two14.net>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 01:51:02PM -0500, Daniel Griffin wrote:
> I have been playing with a program which essentially reads some elements
> from a database then starts a "thread" for each element, this can be a few
> elements or thousands. Inside that thread it does some processing then
> starts n sockets to do tasks. The life of the thread is generally a few
> seconds but can stretch up to hours or even days.

> threads - GIL death when I spin up a ton of threads, I can limit how many
> threads I make but I know I am not getting anywhere near full utilization of
> the box.

Yes, native Python threads don't use multiple processors.  That's why
Tornado's setup was to run 4 instances of Torndao (on a quad core box)
behind nginx running to proxy the incoming requests to those worker
processes round robin.  Something like that is probably a reasonable
approach for Python.

> processes - I dont think its a good idea to make processes that are short
> lived, it seems too expensive. This is even worse on windows.

Linux's forking is very fast - in fact forking a new process and
starting a "real" thread are the same process with a few options set
differently IIRC.  OTOH, I believe Python's threading is the user-mode
sort, which should be even quicker to start, but with more limitations
(such as the often-complained about way Python's threading doesn't
scale to multiple cores).  Windows is, indeed, a whole different story,
and if the codebase has to be performant on both Linux and Windows you
may well need to provide different modes of operation.

> async - I would have to re-factor to make this work and havent tried yet.

Async is the state machine approach.  It can yield very good
performance, but its Achille's heel is that it doesn't deal well with
"long" computations even if they're rare (they cause latency for all
pending requests or an often painful refactoring to break the work into
small chunks).  That's the design choice twisted and Tornado make.

> summary - What is the best way to deal with (sometimes) large numbers of
> "threads" that do a small amount of processing and a large amount of socket
> io?

There is no best way, there are only a choice of design tradeoffs. 
>From where you are now, the simplest might be something like Tornado's
deployment model - run a fairly small number of threaded workers with a
work manager that dispatches tasks (data sets or queries or whatever
exactly they are) to these workers.  That should scale at least to
around one worker per core; maybe further if the thread bog-down is due
to internal overhead in Python's threading.

-- 
Beer does more than Pascal can to justify Date's ways to man.


From maney at two14.net  Tue Sep 15 05:48:36 2009
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:48:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time
	Python	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090915034836.GB3572@furrr.two14.net>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 08:11:50PM -0500, Garrett Smith wrote:
> I'm maintaining an informal list of benchmark results of a simple "Hello
> World" style app for various web servers. I just updated the list to include
> Tornado.
> 
> These benchmarks are part of a web framework I'm working on in Erlang called

Nice work, although a trivial "Hello World" type of request seems
likely to measure the wrong thing for a web framework, at least as I
think of that sort of thing.  It does do a fair job of measuring the
degenerate case of a bunch of components, but says nothing at all about
how it would scale when there were thousands of differnt URLs being
requested (hence presumably exercising internal dispatching) and
something other than static content being returned (because you should
alwys be able to beat a more general framework for static content using
nginx or the like).

I know, that's very much more trouble, which is why it's rarely done. 
But these "Hello World" tests of frameworks designed for dynamic web
sites do put one to mind of the joke about the drunk who was looking
for his keys under the streetlight rather than "over there in the dark"
where he dropped them because it was so much easier to see under the
streetlight.  :-/

-- 
Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books.
For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring,
but to him they are but toys of the moment,
to be overturned with the flick of a finger. --  Gordon Dickson


From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 05:49:28 2009
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:49:28 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Best practices for this concurrent problem?
In-Reply-To: <20090915033855.GA3572@furrr.two14.net>
References: <3db160680909131151j6e992cc4nbf73bcf2c250ec1c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090915033855.GA3572@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <3db160680909142049j3384ec8djd71cb580f3c3cced@mail.gmail.com>

Well, processes and threads are very similar on Unixey OSs but fork makes a
copy of your current process and then certain things might break(like DB
connections). Python threads or "real" threads except that only 1 thread can
use the interpreter at a time.
I wrote a test app using multiprocessing pools and I think it will be the
best I can hope for, I can start say 8 processes and use them in a pool.
There is still the chance I get caught up on  8 long running processes but I
think I can risk that.

Dan

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:38 PM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 01:51:02PM -0500, Daniel Griffin wrote:
> > I have been playing with a program which essentially reads some elements
> > from a database then starts a "thread" for each element, this can be a
> few
> > elements or thousands. Inside that thread it does some processing then
> > starts n sockets to do tasks. The life of the thread is generally a few
> > seconds but can stretch up to hours or even days.
>
> > threads - GIL death when I spin up a ton of threads, I can limit how many
> > threads I make but I know I am not getting anywhere near full utilization
> of
> > the box.
>
> Yes, native Python threads don't use multiple processors.  That's why
> Tornado's setup was to run 4 instances of Torndao (on a quad core box)
> behind nginx running to proxy the incoming requests to those worker
> processes round robin.  Something like that is probably a reasonable
> approach for Python.
>
> > processes - I dont think its a good idea to make processes that are short
> > lived, it seems too expensive. This is even worse on windows.
>
> Linux's forking is very fast - in fact forking a new process and
> starting a "real" thread are the same process with a few options set
> differently IIRC.  OTOH, I believe Python's threading is the user-mode
> sort, which should be even quicker to start, but with more limitations
> (such as the often-complained about way Python's threading doesn't
> scale to multiple cores).  Windows is, indeed, a whole different story,
> and if the codebase has to be performant on both Linux and Windows you
> may well need to provide different modes of operation.
>
> > async - I would have to re-factor to make this work and havent tried yet.
>
> Async is the state machine approach.  It can yield very good
> performance, but its Achille's heel is that it doesn't deal well with
> "long" computations even if they're rare (they cause latency for all
> pending requests or an often painful refactoring to break the work into
> small chunks).  That's the design choice twisted and Tornado make.
>
> > summary - What is the best way to deal with (sometimes) large numbers of
> > "threads" that do a small amount of processing and a large amount of
> socket
> > io?
>
> There is no best way, there are only a choice of design tradeoffs.
> >From where you are now, the simplest might be something like Tornado's
> deployment model - run a fairly small number of threaded workers with a
> work manager that dispatches tasks (data sets or queries or whatever
> exactly they are) to these workers.  That should scale at least to
> around one worker per core; maybe further if the thread bog-down is due
> to internal overhead in Python's threading.
>
> --
> Beer does more than Pascal can to justify Date's ways to man.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From g at rre.tt  Tue Sep 15 07:23:34 2009
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 00:23:34 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0909141852i78ef0cbcs4ab1c2860a4d4783@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<b571660a0909141852i78ef0cbcs4ab1c2860a4d4783@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ce2570e20909142223t54214e2bla860e444c18676e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Kumar McMillan <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> Benchmarking Ruby in WEBRick is like benchmarking SimpleHTTPServer in
> Python.  In other words, it's not really fair :)  You should set up
> Phusion Passenger in Apache.  It's just as easy as Django / mod_wsgi
>
> http://hackd.thrivesmarthq.com/how-to-setup-a-linux-server-for-ruby-on-rails-with-github-and-phusion-passenger
> (you can probably ignore the SSH config)
>

Yay! Ruby web apps *can* serve HTML faster than my friend's golden retriver
;) I owe Kumar a beer!

I added a couple new servers to the lot:

- Phusion (Ruby rack app + mod_passenger + Apache MPM)
- modwsgi

I should clarify a few things about the damned lies I'm spreading here. The
goal is not to benchmark frameworks, but servers. That's why it's a hello
world app. There are no templates, no databases, no sessions, no routing
layers -- just an HTTP server using a program over some interface to serve a
simple message to the client.

I dropped WEBrick, because it was pretty hilarious and web server stats
should be dry and boring. Obviously it's not intended for production use.
Neither is the Django wsgi server, but I left it in for comparison to the
other wsgi server implementations. I should probably drop it altogether
since it is probably misleading readers to conclude that Django is really
slow. Again, not a framework test, but I can appreciate how one might think
it was.

I still find it amazing that CherryPy, a pure Python server, holds its own
in this group. As a single module that you can include in your source tree,
it makes it super simple to build a performant dynamic web app.

I think these numbers (lies) should also dispel the myth that threaded
servers don't handle high levels of concurrency well. All of the servers
were threaded with the exception of Landshark (Erlang processes), Fapws
(libev events), and Tornado (epoll events).

100 Concurrent Requests
-----------------------
=============== ====== ===========
App Server         RPS   Time (ms)
=============== ====== ===========
Fapws             7174          14
Landshark         4479          22
PHP-5             4191          24
modwsgi           3651          27
Tomcat 6          3554          28
Tornado           2641          38
CherryPy WSGI     2102          48
Phusion           1873          54
Jetty 6            937         107
Django WSGI        785         129
=============== ====== ===========

1,000 Concurrent Requests
-------------------------
=============== ====== ===========
App Server         RPS   Time (ms)
=============== ====== ===========
Fapws             5359         187
Landshark         4477         224
modwsgi           3449         290
PHP 5             3062         345
Tomcat 6          3014         345
Tornado           2452         409
CherryPy WSGI     2126         470
Phusion           1585         636
Jetty 6           1095         949
Django WSGI        953        1057
=============== ====== ===========

10,000 Concurrent Requests
--------------------------
=============== ====== ===========
App Server         RPS   Time (ms)
=============== ====== ===========
Fapws             5213        1920
Landshark         4239        2361
Tomcat 6          2369        4752
Tornado           2265        4439
PHP 5             2239        4282
modwsgi           2115        4736
CherryPy WSGI     1731        5786
Phusion           1247        8082
Jetty 6            794       13210
Django WSGI        890       12330
=============== ====== ===========

20,000 Concurrent Requests
--------------------------
=============== ====== ===========
App Server         RPS   Time (ms)
=============== ====== ===========
Fapws             4788        4178
Landshark         2936        6823
Tornado           2214        9061
PHP 5             1728       11578
modwsgi           1374       14880
Tomcat 6          1362       15102
CherryPy WSGI     1294       15477
Phusion            961       20894
Django WSGI        790       27633
Jetty 6            616       32492
=============== ====== ===========
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From g at rre.tt  Tue Sep 15 08:38:04 2009
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 01:38:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
In-Reply-To: <20090913052854.GA25938@furrr.two14.net>
References: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
	<20090913052854.GA25938@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <ce2570e20909142338i636f0729yc522ad06a97051a8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:28 AM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 07:30:56PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
> > Any thoughts on this...
> >
> >     http://www.tornadoweb.org/
> >
> > From http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/145214 Bret Taylor,
> > Facebook's Director of Products:
> >
> >     """Tornado also offers much higher performance than existing Python
> > web frameworks. A multiple process Tornado server on a 4 core 2.4Ghz AMD
> > Opteron system managed 8213 web requests per second, while a single
> > threaded version managed 3353. This compares with Django at 2223 requests
> > per second, Web.py at 2066 and CherryPy at 785."""
>

I just saw this. I think these guys are taking the wrong tone.

I was saddened to read Glyph's post in that he had to defend Twisted from
some (apparently) less than sensitive remarks from the Tornado team.
Unfortunate.

It's easy to get into numbers wars -- I'm afraid my posts may feed more of
this nonsense. Hopefully they wont be misconstrued to be saying that one
server is better than another. My interest in this is simply to gain a
better understanding of low level performance characteristics when running
the simplest of web apps.

As has been pointed out by others on the list, there are a *ton* of factors
that one should consider when looking a web platform. Hello world benchmarks
give you insight into only one facet of a complex system.

So, just to show how crazy stats can be, here's my results, using the same
ab test the Tornado team used:

======== ====== ======== ======= =======
Server    Run 1    Run 2   Run 3     Avg
======== ====== ======== ======= =======
Faps       6046     6335    6319    6233
Modwsgi    3326     3381    3452    3386
Tornado    2273     2257    2132    2221
CherryPy   2112     2044    2048    2068
======== ====== ======== ======= =======

Pretty different story. Who knows, it's all lies anyway, seriously. I do
think they should tone down their claims as they can easily be
misinterpreted if not hurtful to the outstanding projects they're comparing
themselves with.

In any case, having another well supported, excellent codebase like Tornado
is a big win for the Python community (and WSGI!), no matter the silly
numbers games we play.
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From cwebber at dustycloud.org  Tue Sep 15 15:51:15 2009
From: cwebber at dustycloud.org (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:51:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Talk about origins and philosophy of free and open source
	software, within modern philosophy
Message-ID: <87eiq8nwoc.fsf@dustycloud.org>

Cross-posting this to ChiPy and ChiGlug.  I've been considering giving
this talk at both.

I've been long meaning to give a talk about the origins of free and open
source software, as well as the philosophical differences between those
terms.  I've been thinking of taking it a step further and throwing in .

From cwebber at dustycloud.org  Tue Sep 15 16:06:36 2009
From: cwebber at dustycloud.org (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:06:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Talk about origins and philosophy of free and open
	source software, within modern philosophy
In-Reply-To: <87eiq8nwoc.fsf@dustycloud.org> (Christopher Allan Webber's
	message of "Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:51:15 -0500")
References: <87eiq8nwoc.fsf@dustycloud.org>
Message-ID: <878wggnvyr.fsf@dustycloud.org>

Sigh, I actually decided to retract this message and save it in my
drafts until I was done finalizing the idea for this talk.  Instead of
saving it in my drafts I accidentally hit send.  Sorry.  :(

Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber at dustycloud.org> writes:

> Cross-posting this to ChiPy and ChiGlug.  I've been considering giving
> this talk at both.
>
> I've been long meaning to give a talk about the origins of free and open
> source software, as well as the philosophical differences between those
> terms.  I've been thinking of taking it a step further and throwing in .
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 16 06:12:54 2009
From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:12:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Chicago] (no subject)
Message-ID: <116971.50156.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Does anyone have a blackberry and use the blackberry messenger?


      

From mandric at gmail.com  Wed Sep 16 06:38:58 2009
From: mandric at gmail.com (Milan Andric)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:38:58 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Talk about origins and philosophy of free and open
	source software, within modern philosophy
In-Reply-To: <878wggnvyr.fsf@dustycloud.org>
References: <87eiq8nwoc.fsf@dustycloud.org> <878wggnvyr.fsf@dustycloud.org>
Message-ID: <536089f30909152138y27093f66ua980c774f1c6cad5@mail.gmail.com>

+1  ;)

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Christopher Allan Webber
<cwebber at dustycloud.org> wrote:
> Sigh, I actually decided to retract this message and save it in my
> drafts until I was done finalizing the idea for this talk. ?Instead of
> saving it in my drafts I accidentally hit send. ?Sorry. ?:(
>
> Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber at dustycloud.org> writes:
>
>> Cross-posting this to ChiPy and ChiGlug. ?I've been considering giving
>> this talk at both.
>>
>> I've been long meaning to give a talk about the origins of free and open
>> source software, as well as the philosophical differences between those
>> terms. ?I've been thinking of taking it a step further and throwing in .
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Wed Sep 16 17:41:21 2009
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:41:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [ChicagoLinux] Talk about origins and philosophy of
	free and open source software, within modern philosophy
In-Reply-To: <87eiq8nwoc.fsf@dustycloud.org>
References: <87eiq8nwoc.fsf@dustycloud.org>
Message-ID: <b571660a0909160841i424d2e56r69c231aefcb52894@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Christopher Allan Webber
<cwebber at dustycloud.org> wrote:
> Cross-posting this to ChiPy and ChiGlug. ?I've been considering giving
> this talk at both.
>
> I've been long meaning to give a talk about the origins of free and open
> source software, as well as the philosophical differences between those
> terms. ?I've been thinking of taking it a step further and throwing in .

If you were serious about giving this talk then you have my whole
hearted plus one.  Great topic.

Did everyone see Ian's article about this from Djangocon?
http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/
I didn't see the presentation but it was a great read.

From david.durham.jr at gmail.com  Wed Sep 16 20:35:54 2009
From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:35:54 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [ChicagoLinux] Talk about origins and philosophy of
	free and open source software, within modern philosophy
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0909160841i424d2e56r69c231aefcb52894@mail.gmail.com>
References: <87eiq8nwoc.fsf@dustycloud.org>
	<b571660a0909160841i424d2e56r69c231aefcb52894@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fdb5fda0909161135j6a7598e8qe9be3fc6be4ff0e6@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Kumar McMillan
<kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Did everyone see Ian's article about this from Djangocon?
> http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/
> I didn't see the presentation but it was a great read.

Good blog post .. insane number of grammatical mistakes / typos in it though.

-Dave

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Wed Sep 16 21:28:15 2009
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:28:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [ChicagoLinux] Talk about origins and philosophy of
	free and open source software, within modern philosophy
In-Reply-To: <fdb5fda0909161135j6a7598e8qe9be3fc6be4ff0e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <87eiq8nwoc.fsf@dustycloud.org>
	<b571660a0909160841i424d2e56r69c231aefcb52894@mail.gmail.com> 
	<fdb5fda0909161135j6a7598e8qe9be3fc6be4ff0e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b654cd2e0909161228gf1618c9gf030a1b0e8c018ca@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 1:35 PM, David Durham <david.durham.jr at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Kumar McMillan
> <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Did everyone see Ian's article about this from Djangocon?
> > http://blog.ianbicking.org/2009/09/10/a-new-self-definition-for-foss/
> > I didn't see the presentation but it was a great read.
>
> Good blog post .. insane number of grammatical mistakes / typos in it
> though.
>

I'll defend the grammatical mistakes by noting I wrote it to be read out
loud, where all the rules are different ;)  The typos... well, maybe I
should get someone to proof it again.

-- 
Ian Bicking  |  http://blog.ianbicking.org  |
http://topplabs.org/civichacker
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From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 17 19:02:39 2009
From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 10:02:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Chicago] python error question
Message-ID: <369418.69838.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Why do i get this error when i try to run a python hello world for?


Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\NetBeansProjects\NewPythonProject\src\setup.py", line 4, in <module>
    from setuptools import setup,find_packages
ImportError: No module named setuptools

Try to learn to program in netbeans on windows vista:)



      

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 19:04:21 2009
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:04:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python error question
In-Reply-To: <369418.69838.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <369418.69838.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680909171004u3fc27b00n39ba9b5efeacd6ee@mail.gmail.com>

Because you dont have setuptools installed.

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Craig <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Why do i get this error when i try to run a python hello world for?
>
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File
> "C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\NetBeansProjects\NewPythonProject\src\setup.py",
> line 4, in <module>
>    from setuptools import setup,find_packages
> ImportError: No module named setuptools
>
> Try to learn to program in netbeans on windows vista:)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From g at rre.tt  Thu Sep 17 19:19:42 2009
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:19:42 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python error question
In-Reply-To: <369418.69838.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <369418.69838.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ce2570e20909171019o5288d210hd9011eb22e984621@mail.gmail.com>

As far as I know, this is all still current:

http://thinkhole.org/wp/2007/02/01/howto-install-setuptools-in-windows/

It's a bit of a pain in Windows, unfortunately. But once you have easy
install installed and on your path, getting Python packages is super
easy.

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Craig <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why do i get this error when i try to run a python hello world for?
>
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> ?File "C:\Users\Administrator\Documents\NetBeansProjects\NewPythonProject\src\setup.py", line 4, in <module>
> ? ?from setuptools import setup,find_packages
> ImportError: No module named setuptools
>
> Try to learn to program in netbeans on windows vista:)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From david.durham.jr at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 00:48:38 2009
From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:48:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [ChicagoLinux] Talk about origins and philosophy of
	free and open source software, within modern philosophy
In-Reply-To: <b654cd2e0909161228gf1618c9gf030a1b0e8c018ca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <87eiq8nwoc.fsf@dustycloud.org>
	<b571660a0909160841i424d2e56r69c231aefcb52894@mail.gmail.com>
	<fdb5fda0909161135j6a7598e8qe9be3fc6be4ff0e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<b654cd2e0909161228gf1618c9gf030a1b0e8c018ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fdb5fda0909171548k18a32223v9e2442ff98c60b7c@mail.gmail.com>

> I'll defend the grammatical mistakes by noting I wrote it to be read out
> loud, where all the rules are different ;) ?The typos... well, maybe I
> should get someone to proof it again.

How can you defend a statement like this:

   "When I read this statement I was immediate head-over-heels in love
with this concept."

Get it fixed, Mr. Bicking.

I'll swoop back around tomorrow and check on your progress / encourage
you to continue. :)


-Dave

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 17:02:20 2009
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:02:20 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
In-Reply-To: <ce2570e20909142338i636f0729yc522ad06a97051a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
	<20090913052854.GA25938@furrr.two14.net>
	<ce2570e20909142338i636f0729yc522ad06a97051a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b571660a0909180802i3fc2cca5r776e741e1143a4dd@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 1:38 AM, Garrett Smith <g at rre.tt> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:28 AM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 07:30:56PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
>> > Any thoughts on this...
>> >
>> > ? ? http://www.tornadoweb.org/
>> >
>> > From http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/145214 Bret Taylor,
>> > Facebook's Director of Products:
>> >
>> > ? ? """Tornado also offers much higher performance than existing Python
>> > web frameworks. A multiple process Tornado server on a 4 core 2.4Ghz AMD
>> > Opteron system managed 8213 web requests per second, while a single
>> > threaded version managed 3353. This compares with Django at 2223
>> > requests
>> > per second, Web.py at 2066 and CherryPy at 785."""
>
> I just saw this. I think these guys are taking the wrong tone.


The best response to Twisted / Tornado camps I've seen yet:
http://teddziuba.com/2009/09/twisted-vs-tornado-youre-both.html
"You're both idiots"


>
> I was saddened to read Glyph's post in that he had to defend Twisted from
> some (apparently) less than sensitive remarks from the Tornado team.
> Unfortunate.
>
> It's easy to get into numbers wars -- I'm afraid my posts may feed more of
> this nonsense. Hopefully they wont be misconstrued to be saying that one
> server is better than another. My interest in this is simply to gain a
> better understanding of low level performance characteristics when running
> the simplest of web apps.
>
> As has been pointed out by others on the list, there are a *ton* of factors
> that one should consider when looking a web platform. Hello world benchmarks
> give you insight into only one facet of a complex system.
>
> So, just to show how crazy stats can be, here's my results, using the same
> ab test the Tornado team used:
>
> ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
> Server??? Run 1??? Run 2?? Run 3 ? ? Avg
> ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
> Faps?????? 6046???? 6335??? 6319 ?? 6233
> Modwsgi??? 3326???? 3381??? 3452??? 3386
> Tornado??? 2273???? 2257??? 2132??? 2221
> CherryPy?? 2112 ??? 2044??? 2048??? 2068
> ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
>
> Pretty different story. Who knows, it's all lies anyway, seriously. I do
> think they should tone down their claims as they can easily be
> misinterpreted if not hurtful to the outstanding projects they're comparing
> themselves with.
>
> In any case, having another well supported, excellent codebase like Tornado
> is a big win for the Python community (and WSGI!), no matter the silly
> numbers games we play.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 17:07:41 2009
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:07:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0909180802i3fc2cca5r776e741e1143a4dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
	<20090913052854.GA25938@furrr.two14.net>
	<ce2570e20909142338i636f0729yc522ad06a97051a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<b571660a0909180802i3fc2cca5r776e741e1143a4dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680909180807l726103e3yf12b153231ae68e@mail.gmail.com>

"Twisted is probably the douchiest programming library out there. Every time
I open up that code, I feel like I've wandered into a late-night bar on the
Jersey Shore where everybody's drinking Jager-bombs, and nobody is wearing a
shirt."

Its also by far the funniest commentary about the whole thing. Who would
have thought that a simple web server would cause such a ruckus.

Dan

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Kumar McMillan
<kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 1:38 AM, Garrett Smith <g at rre.tt> wrote:
> > On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:28 AM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 07:30:56PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
> >> > Any thoughts on this...
> >> >
> >> >     http://www.tornadoweb.org/
> >> >
> >> > From http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/145214 Bret Taylor,
> >> > Facebook's Director of Products:
> >> >
> >> >     """Tornado also offers much higher performance than existing
> Python
> >> > web frameworks. A multiple process Tornado server on a 4 core 2.4Ghz
> AMD
> >> > Opteron system managed 8213 web requests per second, while a single
> >> > threaded version managed 3353. This compares with Django at 2223
> >> > requests
> >> > per second, Web.py at 2066 and CherryPy at 785."""
> >
> > I just saw this. I think these guys are taking the wrong tone.
>
>
> The best response to Twisted / Tornado camps I've seen yet:
> http://teddziuba.com/2009/09/twisted-vs-tornado-youre-both.html
> "You're both idiots"
>
>
> >
> > I was saddened to read Glyph's post in that he had to defend Twisted from
> > some (apparently) less than sensitive remarks from the Tornado team.
> > Unfortunate.
> >
> > It's easy to get into numbers wars -- I'm afraid my posts may feed more
> of
> > this nonsense. Hopefully they wont be misconstrued to be saying that one
> > server is better than another. My interest in this is simply to gain a
> > better understanding of low level performance characteristics when
> running
> > the simplest of web apps.
> >
> > As has been pointed out by others on the list, there are a *ton* of
> factors
> > that one should consider when looking a web platform. Hello world
> benchmarks
> > give you insight into only one facet of a complex system.
> >
> > So, just to show how crazy stats can be, here's my results, using the
> same
> > ab test the Tornado team used:
> >
> > ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
> > Server    Run 1    Run 2   Run 3     Avg
> > ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
> > Faps       6046     6335    6319    6233
> > Modwsgi    3326     3381    3452    3386
> > Tornado    2273     2257    2132    2221
> > CherryPy   2112     2044    2048    2068
> > ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
> >
> > Pretty different story. Who knows, it's all lies anyway, seriously. I do
> > think they should tone down their claims as they can easily be
> > misinterpreted if not hurtful to the outstanding projects they're
> comparing
> > themselves with.
> >
> > In any case, having another well supported, excellent codebase like
> Tornado
> > is a big win for the Python community (and WSGI!), no matter the silly
> > numbers games we play.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From rlspelich at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 17:21:59 2009
From: rlspelich at gmail.com (Robert Spelich)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:21:59 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
In-Reply-To: <3db160680909180807l726103e3yf12b153231ae68e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
	<20090913052854.GA25938@furrr.two14.net>
	<ce2570e20909142338i636f0729yc522ad06a97051a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<b571660a0909180802i3fc2cca5r776e741e1143a4dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<3db160680909180807l726103e3yf12b153231ae68e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <303c9ec10909180821s3e1710dcudd55a772e1630de7@mail.gmail.com>

I'd love to take Tornado for a spin but the install on a Windows machine
seems to be more difficult than it should be.

Actually its not a Tornado thing. Anyone have a tip for installing pycurl
and CURL. pycurl requires the path to libcurl.lib but there is no .lib in
the CURL packages I get from the download site. I am certain I am doing
something wrong or just don't quite understand what's at play. accomplish.

Help?-Bob

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Daniel Griffin <dgriff1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> "Twisted is probably the douchiest programming library out there. Every
> time I open up that code, I feel like I've wandered into a late-night bar on
> the Jersey Shore where everybody's drinking Jager-bombs, and nobody is
> wearing a shirt."
>
> Its also by far the funniest commentary about the whole thing. Who would
> have thought that a simple web server would cause such a ruckus.
>
> Dan
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Kumar McMillan <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 1:38 AM, Garrett Smith <g at rre.tt> wrote:
>> > On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:28 AM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 07:30:56PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
>> >> > Any thoughts on this...
>> >> >
>> >> >     http://www.tornadoweb.org/
>> >> >
>> >> > From http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/145214 Bret Taylor,
>> >> > Facebook's Director of Products:
>> >> >
>> >> >     """Tornado also offers much higher performance than existing
>> Python
>> >> > web frameworks. A multiple process Tornado server on a 4 core 2.4Ghz
>> AMD
>> >> > Opteron system managed 8213 web requests per second, while a single
>> >> > threaded version managed 3353. This compares with Django at 2223
>> >> > requests
>> >> > per second, Web.py at 2066 and CherryPy at 785."""
>> >
>> > I just saw this. I think these guys are taking the wrong tone.
>>
>>
>> The best response to Twisted / Tornado camps I've seen yet:
>> http://teddziuba.com/2009/09/twisted-vs-tornado-youre-both.html
>> "You're both idiots"
>>
>>
>> >
>> > I was saddened to read Glyph's post in that he had to defend Twisted
>> from
>> > some (apparently) less than sensitive remarks from the Tornado team.
>> > Unfortunate.
>> >
>> > It's easy to get into numbers wars -- I'm afraid my posts may feed more
>> of
>> > this nonsense. Hopefully they wont be misconstrued to be saying that one
>> > server is better than another. My interest in this is simply to gain a
>> > better understanding of low level performance characteristics when
>> running
>> > the simplest of web apps.
>> >
>> > As has been pointed out by others on the list, there are a *ton* of
>> factors
>> > that one should consider when looking a web platform. Hello world
>> benchmarks
>> > give you insight into only one facet of a complex system.
>> >
>> > So, just to show how crazy stats can be, here's my results, using the
>> same
>> > ab test the Tornado team used:
>> >
>> > ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
>> > Server    Run 1    Run 2   Run 3     Avg
>> > ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
>> > Faps       6046     6335    6319    6233
>> > Modwsgi    3326     3381    3452    3386
>> > Tornado    2273     2257    2132    2221
>> > CherryPy   2112     2044    2048    2068
>> > ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
>> >
>> > Pretty different story. Who knows, it's all lies anyway, seriously. I do
>> > think they should tone down their claims as they can easily be
>> > misinterpreted if not hurtful to the outstanding projects they're
>> comparing
>> > themselves with.
>> >
>> > In any case, having another well supported, excellent codebase like
>> Tornado
>> > is a big win for the Python community (and WSGI!), no matter the silly
>> > numbers games we play.
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>


-- 
-Bob
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From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 17:23:55 2009
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:23:55 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
In-Reply-To: <303c9ec10909180821s3e1710dcudd55a772e1630de7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>
	<20090913052854.GA25938@furrr.two14.net>
	<ce2570e20909142338i636f0729yc522ad06a97051a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<b571660a0909180802i3fc2cca5r776e741e1143a4dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<3db160680909180807l726103e3yf12b153231ae68e@mail.gmail.com>
	<303c9ec10909180821s3e1710dcudd55a772e1630de7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680909180823x2771cfds3a8fe741dde38990@mail.gmail.com>

Tornado is also very dependent on epoll which is exclusive to Linux.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Robert Spelich <rlspelich at gmail.com>wrote:

> I'd love to take Tornado for a spin but the install on a Windows machine
> seems to be more difficult than it should be.
>
> Actually its not a Tornado thing. Anyone have a tip for installing pycurl
> and CURL. pycurl requires the path to libcurl.lib but there is no .lib in
> the CURL packages I get from the download site. I am certain I am doing
> something wrong or just don't quite understand what's at play. accomplish.
>
> Help?-Bob
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Daniel Griffin <dgriff1 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> "Twisted is probably the douchiest programming library out there. Every
>> time I open up that code, I feel like I've wandered into a late-night bar on
>> the Jersey Shore where everybody's drinking Jager-bombs, and nobody is
>> wearing a shirt."
>>
>> Its also by far the funniest commentary about the whole thing. Who would
>> have thought that a simple web server would cause such a ruckus.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Kumar McMillan <
>> kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 1:38 AM, Garrett Smith <g at rre.tt> wrote:
>>> > On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:28 AM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 07:30:56PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
>>> >> > Any thoughts on this...
>>> >> >
>>> >> >     http://www.tornadoweb.org/
>>> >> >
>>> >> > From http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/145214 Bret
>>> Taylor,
>>> >> > Facebook's Director of Products:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >     """Tornado also offers much higher performance than existing
>>> Python
>>> >> > web frameworks. A multiple process Tornado server on a 4 core 2.4Ghz
>>> AMD
>>> >> > Opteron system managed 8213 web requests per second, while a single
>>> >> > threaded version managed 3353. This compares with Django at 2223
>>> >> > requests
>>> >> > per second, Web.py at 2066 and CherryPy at 785."""
>>> >
>>> > I just saw this. I think these guys are taking the wrong tone.
>>>
>>>
>>> The best response to Twisted / Tornado camps I've seen yet:
>>> http://teddziuba.com/2009/09/twisted-vs-tornado-youre-both.html
>>> "You're both idiots"
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > I was saddened to read Glyph's post in that he had to defend Twisted
>>> from
>>> > some (apparently) less than sensitive remarks from the Tornado team.
>>> > Unfortunate.
>>> >
>>> > It's easy to get into numbers wars -- I'm afraid my posts may feed more
>>> of
>>> > this nonsense. Hopefully they wont be misconstrued to be saying that
>>> one
>>> > server is better than another. My interest in this is simply to gain a
>>> > better understanding of low level performance characteristics when
>>> running
>>> > the simplest of web apps.
>>> >
>>> > As has been pointed out by others on the list, there are a *ton* of
>>> factors
>>> > that one should consider when looking a web platform. Hello world
>>> benchmarks
>>> > give you insight into only one facet of a complex system.
>>> >
>>> > So, just to show how crazy stats can be, here's my results, using the
>>> same
>>> > ab test the Tornado team used:
>>> >
>>> > ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
>>> > Server    Run 1    Run 2   Run 3     Avg
>>> > ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
>>> > Faps       6046     6335    6319    6233
>>> > Modwsgi    3326     3381    3452    3386
>>> > Tornado    2273     2257    2132    2221
>>> > CherryPy   2112     2044    2048    2068
>>> > ======== ====== ======== ======= =======
>>> >
>>> > Pretty different story. Who knows, it's all lies anyway, seriously. I
>>> do
>>> > think they should tone down their claims as they can easily be
>>> > misinterpreted if not hurtful to the outstanding projects they're
>>> comparing
>>> > themselves with.
>>> >
>>> > In any case, having another well supported, excellent codebase like
>>> Tornado
>>> > is a big win for the Python community (and WSGI!), no matter the silly
>>> > numbers games we play.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >
>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From tal.liron at threecrickets.com  Fri Sep 18 17:48:59 2009
From: tal.liron at threecrickets.com (Tal Liron)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:48:59 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Tornado, shines good on Python?
In-Reply-To: <3db160680909180807l726103e3yf12b153231ae68e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <635F08B9-EDDC-439C-A218-D2C47722EB1A@sent.com>	<20090913052854.GA25938@furrr.two14.net>	<ce2570e20909142338i636f0729yc522ad06a97051a8@mail.gmail.com>	<b571660a0909180802i3fc2cca5r776e741e1143a4dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<3db160680909180807l726103e3yf12b153231ae68e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB3ABEB.2040201@threecrickets.com>

Wow, everybody's all crazy about non-blocking I/O these days!

I'm jumping the gun a bit here, but the RESTful platform I'm working on, 
Prudence, is based on a non-blocking I/O server (Grizzly) over the JVM. 
(In my ChiPy presentation, I called it "Restoration". That had to be 
renamed. Sounded like a backup solution product!)

The update since my presentation is that Prudence now works with Jython 
2.5, kinda. Jython 2.5 ended up being released without support for 
JSR-223, which Prudence requires. However, it does have support in svn. 
HOWEVER, this support is all kinds of broken! So, I've included a 
patched version of Jython 2.6svn in Prudence, and am joining the Jython 
team, I guess, to try to fix this good.

Details, details. I'm also working on having Prudence available in 
different "flavors". The Python flavor, which will be the first, will 
feature a nice demo web app, with Prudence as the "frontend" and 
SQLAlchemy as the "backend". For those interested, I will likely be 
presenting it at ACM on Nov 12. Until then, go for the svn snapshot of 
Prudence to get it with Jython 2.5:

http://threecrickets.com/prudence/

For the record, I think non-blocking I/O is useful for a very, very 
small group of applications, which either truly hit the "c10k users" 
roof, or are web services in extreme volume environments (such as in the 
trading industry). For anybody else, please repeat to yourself over and 
over that "scalability does not equal performance". In fact, many 
applications that are designed to scale well perform poorly. (memcached 
comes to mind. This will be part of my next talk at ChiPy, about Django 
performance.) All this to say: Tornado is interesting, Twisted is 
interesting, Prudence is (of course!) interesting, but their 
non-blocking features might be irrelevant to you.

Actually, Prudence lets you switch its web server to blocking Jetty, 
which can be good. Non-blocking I/O is tricky to code, and these 
libraries are notorious for very hard to find, and weird bugs. I can 
provide non-joyful anecdotes. Bottom line: robustness may be more 
important than scalability for you.

Final note: there are extremely scalable web servers out there that use 
/blocking/ I/O. When you need to scale: test, and don't believe the hype.

-Tal

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Fri Sep 18 21:54:44 2009
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:54:44 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0909141852i78ef0cbcs4ab1c2860a4d4783@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com> 
	<b571660a0909141852i78ef0cbcs4ab1c2860a4d4783@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b654cd2e0909181254x1cbd8db6g4bcd8b13ae3e8cb2@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Kumar McMillan
<kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Benchmarking Ruby in WEBRick is like benchmarking SimpleHTTPServer in
> Python. ?In other words, it's not really fair :)

There's nothing that unfair about benchmarking SimpleHTTPServer.
paste.httpserver uses SimpleHTTPServer, and it's not as fast as
CherryPy (which is still pure Python and I think not entirely unlike
SimpleHTTPServer, just more streamlined), but it's not terrible.  It's
certainly nothing like WEBrick.

-- 
Ian Bicking  |  http://blog.ianbicking.org  |  http://topplabs.org/civichacker

From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Sep 18 22:03:50 2009
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:03:50 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <b654cd2e0909181254x1cbd8db6g4bcd8b13ae3e8cb2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<b571660a0909141852i78ef0cbcs4ab1c2860a4d4783@mail.gmail.com>
	<b654cd2e0909181254x1cbd8db6g4bcd8b13ae3e8cb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7FE408FF-608C-409F-9416-9AFCB9F6AE74@cs.depaul.edu>

I can contribute one more:

      http://web2py.com/examples/static/web2pyserver.py

- api compatible with cherrypy and very much inspired by it.
- works with cherrypy ssl_handler (to be tested) but will soon have  
its own.
- multithreaded
- can handle requests and responses via chunking (like cherrypy) (but  
not tested yet!)
- should work with python 3 (but not tried yet!)
- 30-50% faster then cherrypy in my tests.

I could use some independent tests and benchmarks.

Massimo


On Sep 18, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Ian Bicking wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Kumar McMillan
> <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Benchmarking Ruby in WEBRick is like benchmarking SimpleHTTPServer in
>> Python.  In other words, it's not really fair :)
>
> There's nothing that unfair about benchmarking SimpleHTTPServer.
> paste.httpserver uses SimpleHTTPServer, and it's not as fast as
> CherryPy (which is still pure Python and I think not entirely unlike
> SimpleHTTPServer, just more streamlined), but it's not terrible.  It's
> certainly nothing like WEBrick.
>
> -- 
> Ian Bicking  |  http://blog.ianbicking.org  |  http://topplabs.org/civichacker
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From maney at two14.net  Fri Sep 18 23:51:20 2009
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:51:20 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Django Debug Toolbar: the music video
Message-ID: <20090918215120.GA1900@furrr.two14.net>


Okay, not really - it's just a screencast (animated version of
screenshots) with a soundtrack.  Someone's been doing some serious
revising to the interface while I wasn't looking!

  http://robhudson.github.com/django-debug-toolbar/

-- 
It isn't that secrets are never needed in security.
It's that they are never desirable.  -- Whitfield Diffie


From g at rre.tt  Sat Sep 19 01:41:15 2009
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:41:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <7FE408FF-608C-409F-9416-9AFCB9F6AE74@cs.depaul.edu>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<b571660a0909141852i78ef0cbcs4ab1c2860a4d4783@mail.gmail.com>
	<b654cd2e0909181254x1cbd8db6g4bcd8b13ae3e8cb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<7FE408FF-608C-409F-9416-9AFCB9F6AE74@cs.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <ce2570e20909181641k60cd1769i80ec990f9d16d9d2@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Massimo Di Pierro
<mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> I can contribute one more:
>
> ? ? http://web2py.com/examples/static/web2pyserver.py
>
> - api compatible with cherrypy and very much inspired by it.
> - works with cherrypy ssl_handler (to be tested) but will soon have its own.
> - multithreaded
> - can handle requests and responses via chunking (like cherrypy) (but not
> tested yet!)
> - should work with python 3 (but not tried yet!)
> - 30-50% faster then cherrypy in my tests.
>
> I could use some independent tests and benchmarks.

I've confirmed these results. The new web2py WSGI server is a playah!

web2server is on par with CherryPy at lowish levels of concurrency (<
1000) but is far better at handling very high levels of concurrency
requests (> 10,000). I was skeptical of Massimos 50% faster claims,
but it shows up at these very high levels.

It's *very* comparable, per my benchmarks, to Tornado. And it's threaded.

I hope word gets out about this.

As folks have been saying here for a while now -- it's really not a
good idea to plunge into async/event concurrency models for web apps.
Hell, even crazy highly concurrent apps like instant messaging or
simulators can probably get by perfectly well using threads, provided
the stack size is kept reasonable.

If you need a hundred thousand concurrent, long running processes,
fine. But you'll probably want something like Stackless anyway. Or
Erlang :)

Nice work Massimo!

P.S. The LGPL is kind of a pain for people that want to throw this
module into their source tree and not worry about the particulars of
that license. Massimo, if you plan to keep this as a single module
(hope so), would you consider an alternative or dual license?

From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Sat Sep 19 03:45:46 2009
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:45:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <ce2570e20909181641k60cd1769i80ec990f9d16d9d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<b571660a0909141852i78ef0cbcs4ab1c2860a4d4783@mail.gmail.com>
	<b654cd2e0909181254x1cbd8db6g4bcd8b13ae3e8cb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<7FE408FF-608C-409F-9416-9AFCB9F6AE74@cs.depaul.edu>
	<ce2570e20909181641k60cd1769i80ec990f9d16d9d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C61C4D33-213F-4393-9A23-75D69F395328@cs.depaul.edu>

Thank you Garrett for the tests.

Can you tell us about what hardware/os you used?

Massimo

Could you tell us what machine you are using for the test?

Massimo

On Sep 18, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Garrett Smith wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Massimo Di Pierro
> <mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> I can contribute one more:
>>
>>     http://web2py.com/examples/static/web2pyserver.py
>>
>> - api compatible with cherrypy and very much inspired by it.
>> - works with cherrypy ssl_handler (to be tested) but will soon have  
>> its own.
>> - multithreaded
>> - can handle requests and responses via chunking (like cherrypy)  
>> (but not
>> tested yet!)
>> - should work with python 3 (but not tried yet!)
>> - 30-50% faster then cherrypy in my tests.
>>
>> I could use some independent tests and benchmarks.
>
> I've confirmed these results. The new web2py WSGI server is a playah!
>
> web2server is on par with CherryPy at lowish levels of concurrency (<
> 1000) but is far better at handling very high levels of concurrency
> requests (> 10,000). I was skeptical of Massimos 50% faster claims,
> but it shows up at these very high levels.
>
> It's *very* comparable, per my benchmarks, to Tornado. And it's  
> threaded.
>
> I hope word gets out about this.
>
> As folks have been saying here for a while now -- it's really not a
> good idea to plunge into async/event concurrency models for web apps.
> Hell, even crazy highly concurrent apps like instant messaging or
> simulators can probably get by perfectly well using threads, provided
> the stack size is kept reasonable.
>
> If you need a hundred thousand concurrent, long running processes,
> fine. But you'll probably want something like Stackless anyway. Or
> Erlang :)
>
> Nice work Massimo!
>
> P.S. The LGPL is kind of a pain for people that want to throw this
> module into their source tree and not worry about the particulars of
> that license. Massimo, if you plan to keep this as a single module
> (hope so), would you consider an alternative or dual license?
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Sat Sep 19 10:25:37 2009
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 03:25:37 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook open sources FriendFeed's real-time Python
	web framework, Tornado
In-Reply-To: <C61C4D33-213F-4393-9A23-75D69F395328@cs.depaul.edu>
References: <b571660a0909101052r6814db81of8cb405c5bb0093f@mail.gmail.com>
	<ce2570e20909141811v34552844h67c132fb4c818b94@mail.gmail.com>
	<b571660a0909141852i78ef0cbcs4ab1c2860a4d4783@mail.gmail.com>
	<b654cd2e0909181254x1cbd8db6g4bcd8b13ae3e8cb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<7FE408FF-608C-409F-9416-9AFCB9F6AE74@cs.depaul.edu>
	<ce2570e20909181641k60cd1769i80ec990f9d16d9d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<C61C4D33-213F-4393-9A23-75D69F395328@cs.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <88B3B42A-BEB7-4EBB-A8B1-96D030E846AD@cs.depaul.edu>

Here is a better version:

     http://web2py.com/examples/static/sneaky.py

and a Python 3.0 version:

     http://web2py.com/examples/static/sneaky3.py

They may still need some more work but they seem to work fine. I did  
not test SSL and chunked uploads yet.

Massimo


On Sep 18, 2009, at 8:45 PM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:

> Thank you Garrett for the tests.
>
> Can you tell us about what hardware/os you used?
>
> Massimo
>
> Could you tell us what machine you are using for the test?
>
> Massimo
>
> On Sep 18, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Garrett Smith wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Massimo Di Pierro
>> <mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>>> I can contribute one more:
>>>
>>>    http://web2py.com/examples/static/web2pyserver.py
>>>
>>> - api compatible with cherrypy and very much inspired by it.
>>> - works with cherrypy ssl_handler (to be tested) but will soon have
>>> its own.
>>> - multithreaded
>>> - can handle requests and responses via chunking (like cherrypy)
>>> (but not
>>> tested yet!)
>>> - should work with python 3 (but not tried yet!)
>>> - 30-50% faster then cherrypy in my tests.
>>>
>>> I could use some independent tests and benchmarks.
>>
>> I've confirmed these results. The new web2py WSGI server is a playah!
>>
>> web2server is on par with CherryPy at lowish levels of concurrency (<
>> 1000) but is far better at handling very high levels of concurrency
>> requests (> 10,000). I was skeptical of Massimos 50% faster claims,
>> but it shows up at these very high levels.
>>
>> It's *very* comparable, per my benchmarks, to Tornado. And it's
>> threaded.
>>
>> I hope word gets out about this.
>>
>> As folks have been saying here for a while now -- it's really not a
>> good idea to plunge into async/event concurrency models for web apps.
>> Hell, even crazy highly concurrent apps like instant messaging or
>> simulators can probably get by perfectly well using threads, provided
>> the stack size is kept reasonable.
>>
>> If you need a hundred thousand concurrent, long running processes,
>> fine. But you'll probably want something like Stackless anyway. Or
>> Erlang :)
>>
>> Nice work Massimo!
>>
>> P.S. The LGPL is kind of a pain for people that want to throw this
>> module into their source tree and not worry about the particulars of
>> that license. Massimo, if you plan to keep this as a single module
>> (hope so), would you consider an alternative or dual license?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From maney at two14.net  Sat Sep 19 23:25:28 2009
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 16:25:28 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Google Python Style Guide
Message-ID: <20090919212528.GB1900@furrr.two14.net>


  http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pyguide.html

Oh, and there are similar guides for some other languages that no sane
person would care about, like C++ and Objective-C - crazy stuff.  ;-)

-- 
Not on the wealthy, who buy only what they want when they want it, was
the vast superstructure of industry founded and built up, but on those who,
aching for a luxury beyond their reach and for a leisure forever denied them,
could be bullied or wheedled into spending their few hardly won shillings
on whatever might give them, if only for a moment, a leisured and
luxurious illusion.  -- Dorothy Sayers, _Murder Must Advertise_


From bray at sent.com  Sat Sep 19 23:29:40 2009
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 16:29:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Google Python Style Guide
In-Reply-To: <20090919212528.GB1900@furrr.two14.net>
References: <20090919212528.GB1900@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <2FD99161-9648-49E4-8BEB-3B5AD736BB08@sent.com>


On Sep 19, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Martin Maney wrote:

>
>  http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pyguide.html
>
> Oh, and there are similar guides for some other languages that no sane
> person would care about, like C++ and Objective-C - crazy stuff.  ;-)


Heh, this is really funny... it is like  super charged PEP8.


Brian Ray




From maney at two14.net  Sun Sep 20 02:09:08 2009
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 19:09:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Google Python Style Guide
In-Reply-To: <2FD99161-9648-49E4-8BEB-3B5AD736BB08@sent.com>
References: <20090919212528.GB1900@furrr.two14.net>
	<2FD99161-9648-49E4-8BEB-3B5AD736BB08@sent.com>
Message-ID: <20090920000908.GC1900@furrr.two14.net>

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 04:29:40PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
> Heh, this is really funny... it is like  super charged PEP8.

With simple yet amusing in-page widgets to "reveal details"!

Really, I came across very little that made me say "uhm, wait".  One
that comes to mind, perhaps because I'd just violated it earlier today,
was the IMO over-strict one about limiting list comprehensions.  I do
not for a moment think that

    result.extend('%s %s' % (p, s) for p in prefixes for s in tails)

would be improved in any reasonable way by unrolling it into multiple
lines, yet the rule says Only One Iterable Is Allowed.  I think they've
just chosen a 90% right condition and turned it into a too-rigid rule
that has obvious failings.  Of course, the intent - don't write overly
involved list comprehensions -  is one with which I agree.

Another issue they've made me think about is importing non-module
objects.  "from xyz import *" is easy to argue against, but I was
surprised to see the rule (1) "Use imports for packages and modules
only."  I'll concede that Google probably has more experience than I do
about large code bases with many different people working on them, but
I can't see what the problem is here, unless they're in the habit of
shuffling functions or classes about from one place to another with gay
abandon.  (I will say that the sort of thing I use from ... import
x,y,z with is mostly framework-ish stuff that gets used over and over
in some files, such as Django's Model class and field types, and that
may be partly because so many of them have long-enough names as it is)

Style guides: the biggest, most in need of painting, bikesheds ever! :-)


(1) I still find that terse, not clear.  The expansion makes it clear:
"Use import x for importing packages and modules. Use from x import y
only when x is a package and y is a module."

-- 
vi is a microcosm of the Unix world.  Don't expect
to learn all of it at once; perhaps you shouldn't expect
to learn all of it at all.  -- Jon Lasser (Think Unix)


From lists at durin42.com  Sun Sep 20 04:03:24 2009
From: lists at durin42.com (Augie Fackler)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 21:03:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Google Python Style Guide
In-Reply-To: <20090920000908.GC1900@furrr.two14.net>
References: <20090919212528.GB1900@furrr.two14.net>
	<2FD99161-9648-49E4-8BEB-3B5AD736BB08@sent.com>
	<20090920000908.GC1900@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <671C5043-CE1A-4380-A730-EF581D5A8AE1@durin42.com>


On Sep 19, 2009, at 7:09 PM, Martin Maney wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 04:29:40PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
>> Heh, this is really funny... it is like  super charged PEP8.
>
> With simple yet amusing in-page widgets to "reveal details"!
>
> Really, I came across very little that made me say "uhm, wait".  One
> that comes to mind, perhaps because I'd just violated it earlier  
> today,
> was the IMO over-strict one about limiting list comprehensions.  I do
> not for a moment think that
>
>    result.extend('%s %s' % (p, s) for p in prefixes for s in tails)
>
> would be improved in any reasonable way by unrolling it into multiple
> lines, yet the rule says Only One Iterable Is Allowed.

Come at it as a C++ or Java programmer though - most projects at  
Google use Java and C++ primarily, and last I knew the majority of  
Googlers only know Python at the level of having read _Python in a  
Nutshell_ on the shuttle to work. The list comprehension is something  
that a lot of people have a little trouble with if they're coming to  
Python as an nth programming language. I'll confess I found it non- 
intuitive (and a little confusing) at first.

> I think they've
> just chosen a 90% right condition and turned it into a too-rigid rule
> that has obvious failings.  Of course, the intent - don't write overly
> involved list comprehensions -  is one with which I agree.

The point is that you might write a service in Python which some other  
poor sucker^W^W engineer will have to use, and if it acts oddly, he  
might need to be able to read the source. He still has to be able to  
parse your code if he's not fluent in the nuances of your language.  
The price for that is that you neuter some of the more useful features  
of the language.

Then again, my worst single piece of Python comes from abusing map,  
reduce, and list comprehensions. I think it's the single feature of  
the language which requires the most restraint.

> Another issue they've made me think about is importing non-module
> objects.  "from xyz import *" is easy to argue against, but I was
> surprised to see the rule (1) "Use imports for packages and modules
> only."  I'll concede that Google probably has more experience than I  
> do
> about large code bases with many different people working on them, but
> I can't see what the problem is here, unless they're in the habit of
> shuffling functions or classes about from one place to another with  
> gay
> abandon.  (I will say that the sort of thing I use from ... import
> x,y,z with is mostly framework-ish stuff that gets used over and over
> in some files, such as Django's Model class and field types, and that
> may be partly because so many of them have long-enough names as it is)

When you're looking at a 1000 line file (sadly, not uncommon), it's  
nice to know that the function that just got used is really an import  
from another module (because it has a foo. prefix) and that you should  
go look in another file instead of scrolling around wildly or  
searching for "def ..." looking for a function when it might be a  
class (this has happened to me even in small codebases) gets tedious.

>
> Style guides: the biggest, most in need of painting, bikesheds  
> ever! :-)

Indeed!

> (1) I still find that terse, not clear.  The expansion makes it clear:
> "Use import x for importing packages and modules. Use from x import y
> only when x is a package and y is a module."
>
> -- 
> vi is a microcosm of the Unix world.  Don't expect
> to learn all of it at once; perhaps you shouldn't expect
> to learn all of it at all.  -- Jon Lasser (Think Unix)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>


From mtemkin at speakeasy.net  Sun Sep 20 17:47:08 2009
From: mtemkin at speakeasy.net (Marc Temkin)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 10:47:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Digest, Vol 49,
	Issue 21 Style Guide Discussion
In-Reply-To: <mailman.14.1253440801.5417.chicago@python.org>
References: <mailman.14.1253440801.5417.chicago@python.org>
Message-ID: <9E5D05A497034B2986AFC60CB435C877@Dreamcatcher2>

Every new programming language comes out promoting their more direct syntax
with equivalent or more usefulness then predecessors.  These languages, be
it C#, Java, Ruby, Python, others, then offer some less obvious but more
powerful syntax.  Certain groups of programmers adopt these idioms
extensively and weaken the original goal of the language by obscuring the
original direct syntax. After years of creeping obfuscation, we get a new
language!  

This stylization has always occurred in literature,music composition, and
other arts but the authors and composers create these styles to uniquely
identify their work.

Marc Temkin


From joe.jasinski at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 01:07:33 2009
From: joe.jasinski at gmail.com (Joe Jasinski)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:07:33 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Google Python Style Guide
In-Reply-To: <671C5043-CE1A-4380-A730-EF581D5A8AE1@durin42.com>
References: <20090919212528.GB1900@furrr.two14.net>
	<2FD99161-9648-49E4-8BEB-3B5AD736BB08@sent.com>
	<20090920000908.GC1900@furrr.two14.net>
	<671C5043-CE1A-4380-A730-EF581D5A8AE1@durin42.com>
Message-ID: <d9df880f0909201607i53d6c65eiac054104667b0bea@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Augie,
  Just joined the ChiPy mailing group.  Saw your name. How's life been?  I
assume you are in the city?
Joe

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Augie Fackler <lists at durin42.com> wrote:

>
> On Sep 19, 2009, at 7:09 PM, Martin Maney wrote:
>
>  On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 04:29:40PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
>>
>>> Heh, this is really funny... it is like  super charged PEP8.
>>>
>>
>> With simple yet amusing in-page widgets to "reveal details"!
>>
>> Really, I came across very little that made me say "uhm, wait".  One
>> that comes to mind, perhaps because I'd just violated it earlier today,
>> was the IMO over-strict one about limiting list comprehensions.  I do
>> not for a moment think that
>>
>>   result.extend('%s %s' % (p, s) for p in prefixes for s in tails)
>>
>> would be improved in any reasonable way by unrolling it into multiple
>> lines, yet the rule says Only One Iterable Is Allowed.
>>
>
> Come at it as a C++ or Java programmer though - most projects at Google use
> Java and C++ primarily, and last I knew the majority of Googlers only know
> Python at the level of having read _Python in a Nutshell_ on the shuttle to
> work. The list comprehension is something that a lot of people have a little
> trouble with if they're coming to Python as an nth programming language.
> I'll confess I found it non-intuitive (and a little confusing) at first.
>
>  I think they've
>> just chosen a 90% right condition and turned it into a too-rigid rule
>> that has obvious failings.  Of course, the intent - don't write overly
>> involved list comprehensions -  is one with which I agree.
>>
>
> The point is that you might write a service in Python which some other poor
> sucker^W^W engineer will have to use, and if it acts oddly, he might need to
> be able to read the source. He still has to be able to parse your code if
> he's not fluent in the nuances of your language. The price for that is that
> you neuter some of the more useful features of the language.
>
> Then again, my worst single piece of Python comes from abusing map, reduce,
> and list comprehensions. I think it's the single feature of the language
> which requires the most restraint.
>
>  Another issue they've made me think about is importing non-module
>> objects.  "from xyz import *" is easy to argue against, but I was
>> surprised to see the rule (1) "Use imports for packages and modules
>> only."  I'll concede that Google probably has more experience than I do
>> about large code bases with many different people working on them, but
>> I can't see what the problem is here, unless they're in the habit of
>> shuffling functions or classes about from one place to another with gay
>> abandon.  (I will say that the sort of thing I use from ... import
>> x,y,z with is mostly framework-ish stuff that gets used over and over
>> in some files, such as Django's Model class and field types, and that
>> may be partly because so many of them have long-enough names as it is)
>>
>
> When you're looking at a 1000 line file (sadly, not uncommon), it's nice to
> know that the function that just got used is really an import from another
> module (because it has a foo. prefix) and that you should go look in another
> file instead of scrolling around wildly or searching for "def ..." looking
> for a function when it might be a class (this has happened to me even in
> small codebases) gets tedious.
>
>
>> Style guides: the biggest, most in need of painting, bikesheds ever! :-)
>>
>
> Indeed!
>
>
>  (1) I still find that terse, not clear.  The expansion makes it clear:
>> "Use import x for importing packages and modules. Use from x import y
>> only when x is a package and y is a module."
>>
>> --
>> vi is a microcosm of the Unix world.  Don't expect
>> to learn all of it at once; perhaps you shouldn't expect
>> to learn all of it at all.  -- Jon Lasser (Think Unix)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Joe J. Jasinski
www.joejasinski.com
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From szybalski at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 22:42:35 2009
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:42:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Calendar Server instructions
In-Reply-To: <804e5c70909281340jfc757b4yca6ac87cf39c6027@mail.gmail.com>
References: <804e5c70909281340jfc757b4yca6ac87cf39c6027@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <804e5c70909281342s46526b68waa551ba49e6cf6a6@mail.gmail.com>

Kind of off topic, but still running python twisted ...so....



Not sure how many of you need calendar Server in you company, but I
just updated instructions on how to setup Darwin Calendar Server on
debian.

It was as easy as 123.

http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/CalendarServer

Now users can share and add events, and tasks inside their mail client.


Contents

? 1. Install CalendarServer
? 2. Configure Calendar Server
? 3. Add Calendar To Thunderbird
? 4. Enable Calendar on company network
? 5. Share events and Tasks

Enjoy,
Lucas


--
Setup CalendarServer for your company.
http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/CalendarServer
Automotive Recall Database - See if you vehicle has a recall
http://lucasmanual.com/recall

From maney at two14.net  Mon Sep 28 23:21:09 2009
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:21:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python (and some other) news on the web
Message-ID: <20090928212109.GA16185@furrr.two14.net>


PyPy has some early results from their JIT - looking good!

  http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2009/09/first-results-of-jit.html

His solution seems to be all Ruby, but I'm all over his complaints
about CSS lacking DRYness.  Really, really lacking...

  http://chriseppstein.github.com/blog/2009/09/20/why-stylesheet-abstraction-matters/

Ever find yourself choosing between open source RDBMs?  This may help:

  http://www.anchor.com.au/hosting/dedicated/mysql_vs_postgres

...okay, where did the other Python-related item go to?  Weren't there
two of those?  Well, while I'm rummaging about, amuse yourselves...

Scary: you're never more than 145 miles away from a Big Mac in the
continental US!

  http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/413-the-mcfarthest-place-145-mi-to-the-nearest-big-mac/

Ah, here we are.  Come join us on IRC and ask feihong about it - he
keeps mentioning argparse.  :-)

  http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0389/

Cooking may have been a necessary step in the evolution of humans.  Who
knew?

  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112334465

-- 
The phenomenon of financial excess associated with
promising novel technologies is a recurring feature
of the last two centuries.  -- Andrew Odlyzko