From steve at agilitynerd.com  Fri Jul  1 00:24:25 2011
From: steve at agilitynerd.com (Steve Schwarz)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:24:25 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you get up to speed with an api?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinAN4xGeJ6s-x3aHxRzFLpmpY6sMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinVc51wzY+fJ3NBUmTYKH2LrngzJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinWfZEH7Sjzw-SS2Q4j1KugV4_HtQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinAN4xGeJ6s-x3aHxRzFLpmpY6sMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikaZKN6FEW8-qmGUTXNETGsAfKsZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Brantley Harris <deadwisdom at gmail.com>wrote:

> I disagree.  I think the best way is to call the API developer and
> harass them repeatedly until they come over and teach you exactly how
> everything works.  Then, since they won't see it coming, bash them
> over the head, and chain up their unconscious body in the basement
> where you will keep them for months, feeding them bread and water in
> exchange for insight into their application.
>
> I'm just saying, that's the *best* way.
>

You've missed the **best** way. Always write your own APIs! Who could
possibly do as good a job at meeting your needs and your way of thinking??

I mean, really, who needs more than just the standard Python libs?  ;^)

Best Regards,
Steve
http://tech.agilitynerd.com/
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From carl at personnelware.com  Fri Jul  1 00:43:17 2011
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:43:17 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you get up to speed with an api?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikaZKN6FEW8-qmGUTXNETGsAfKsZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinVc51wzY+fJ3NBUmTYKH2LrngzJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinWfZEH7Sjzw-SS2Q4j1KugV4_HtQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinAN4xGeJ6s-x3aHxRzFLpmpY6sMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikaZKN6FEW8-qmGUTXNETGsAfKsZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimfuFV+1cfr8ACSPJzBuQYgsLvGRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Steve Schwarz <steve at agilitynerd.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Brantley Harris <deadwisdom at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I disagree. ?I think the best way is to call the API developer and
>> harass them repeatedly until they come over and teach you exactly how
>> everything works. ?Then, since they won't see it coming, bash them
>> over the head, and chain up their unconscious body in the basement
>> where you will keep them for months, feeding them bread and water in
>> exchange for insight into their application.
>>
>> I'm just saying, that's the *best* way.
>
> You've missed the **best** way. Always write your own APIs! Who could
> possibly do as good a job at meeting your needs and your way of thinking??
> I mean, really, who needs more than just the standard Python libs? ?;^)

And it is way more fun to write new code.  Trying to work with old
buggy code sucks.  writing new buggy code rocks!



-- 
Carl K

From tathagatadg at gmail.com  Fri Jul  1 01:30:48 2011
From: tathagatadg at gmail.com (Tathagata Dasgupta)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:30:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you get up to speed with an api?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimfuFV+1cfr8ACSPJzBuQYgsLvGRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinVc51wzY+fJ3NBUmTYKH2LrngzJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinWfZEH7Sjzw-SS2Q4j1KugV4_HtQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinAN4xGeJ6s-x3aHxRzFLpmpY6sMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikaZKN6FEW8-qmGUTXNETGsAfKsZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimfuFV+1cfr8ACSPJzBuQYgsLvGRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinZbK8_e9kGhL2JSAvV5GyehEiiJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Steve Schwarz <steve at agilitynerd.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Brantley Harris <deadwisdom at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I disagree. ?I think the best way is to call the API developer and
>>> harass them repeatedly until they come over and teach you exactly how
>>> everything works. ?Then, since they won't see it coming, bash them
>>> over the head, and chain up their unconscious body in the basement
>>> where you will keep them for months, feeding them bread and water in
>>> exchange for insight into their application.
>>>
>>> I'm just saying, that's the *best* way.

This must be the opening sketch for a thriller rendition of Monty
Python. Tilted "Code and Punishment".

But thanks @Tim Ottinger for the great ideas ... - experimental learning FTW!
Wish there was pair programming buddy finder ... it might even be
helpful to diligent book reviewers even the demographics breaks even
...

>>
>> You've missed the **best** way. Always write your own APIs! Who could
>> possibly do as good a job at meeting your needs and your way of thinking??
>> I mean, really, who needs more than just the standard Python libs? ?;^)
>
> And it is way more fun to write new code. ?Trying to work with old
> buggy code sucks. ?writing new buggy code rocks!
>
>
>
> --
> Carl K
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Cheers,
Tathagata
Graduate Student
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois, Chicago

From matt at mattokeefe.com  Fri Jul  1 04:06:31 2011
From: matt at mattokeefe.com (Matthew O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 21:06:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you get up to speed with an api?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinAN4xGeJ6s-x3aHxRzFLpmpY6sMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinVc51wzY+fJ3NBUmTYKH2LrngzJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinWfZEH7Sjzw-SS2Q4j1KugV4_HtQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinAN4xGeJ6s-x3aHxRzFLpmpY6sMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=kjpYkrkBt+OkROgrSJMvXYZY3sQ@mail.gmail.com>

"It puts the tests in the basket. It makes the tests pass or else it gets
the hose again."

Reading the tests should be the best way.

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Brantley Harris <deadwisdom at gmail.com>wrote:

> I disagree.  I think the best way is to call the API developer and
> harass them repeatedly until they come over and teach you exactly how
> everything works.  Then, since they won't see it coming, bash them
> over the head, and chain up their unconscious body in the basement
> where you will keep them for months, feeding them bread and water in
> exchange for insight into their application.
>
> I'm just saying, that's the *best* way.
>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Kumar McMillan
> <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta
> > <tathagatadg at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi *,
> >> Besides RTFM, test cases, how do make yourself familiar with an api
> >> ... basically discovering what hides underneath and how get things
> >> done with it ...
> >
> > The best way is to study an application that *uses* the API, if one
> > exists.  For example, if there is a website that makes Ajax requests
> > to the API you could use Firebug or Chrome tools to watch the API
> > calls that are made while you interact with the app.
> >
> >> I found bpython from this list, and it has been fantastic compared to
> >> help(foo) and searching ... specifically the intellisence prompting me
> >> whats underneath (with the doc, and even F2-ing to the original code
> >> itself ) ...
> >>
> >> Any tricks, tips you want to share in this respect?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >> Tathagata
> >> Graduate Student
> >> Department of Computer Science
> >> University of Illinois, Chicago
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Jul  1 06:39:26 2011
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 23:39:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Brief Apps for Metro Chicago talk at the next ChiPy
	meetup
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=t==UjJ=qAPjNOnpRg7UPDR-5qPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=t==UjJ=qAPjNOnpRg7UPDR-5qPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimKSW8n8Tx6pmKiNZTqfObqYQkZjg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Geoffrey Hing <ghing at mcic.org> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm a developer at the Metro Chicago Information Center.? We're helping to
> run the Apps for Metro Chicago competition
> (http://www.appsformetrochicago.org/) that's happening now.? As part of my
> work, I'm trying to drop by as many Chicago developer meetups as possible to
> do a quick presentation about the competition, answer any questions that
> developers may have and help link developers with community organizations or
> the legacy business community (the judging rubric for the competition favors
> apps that come out of these partnerships).
>
> I'm wondering if it would be possible for me to give a brief talk about the
> competition at the next ChiPy meetup?

Hi Geoff, sure!  Talks are pretty informal so all we need is a short
description (a couple sentences) for the wiki: http://www.chipy.org/
Since we haven't started the line-up of talks yet you can pick your
time.  Probably 15 - 30 min is good.  Or longer if you need it.

I, for one, am psyched to hear more about the Apps for Metro competition.

>
> Also, If any of you has any questions about Apps for Metro Chicago, please
> feel free to post a question to http://apps4chicago.zendesk.com/ and I'll do
> my best to get you a prompt answer.
>
> Best,
> Geoff
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Jul  1 07:04:36 2011
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 00:04:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting topics
Message-ID: <BANLkTinOpW6Fy0f7ojbJhg_sFNjxrhKxGQ@mail.gmail.com>

it's a little early, but hey why not ...

Who wants to present at the next meeting?

When: Thursday July 14th 2011 7 p.m.
Where: Morningstar Inc: Global Headquarters 22 W Washington St
Chicago, IL 60602
_

Geoff Hing has kindly offered to talk about the Apps for Metro
project.  i.e. Do cool stuff with data in Python!
http://www.appsformetrochicago.org/
_

If there's interest, I can give a 20 min talk on Playdoh and how you can use it:
http://playdoh.readthedocs.org/en/latest/

Playdoh is Mozilla's starter kit for new Django projects.  It aims to
be secure-by-default and set up all the same goodies we use to scale
for high traffic, perform background tasks, localize our sites in many
languages, and other cool things.
_

Any other topics?

This could well be the best meeting ever...

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Fri Jul  1 15:41:19 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 08:41:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting topics
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinOpW6Fy0f7ojbJhg_sFNjxrhKxGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinOpW6Fy0f7ojbJhg_sFNjxrhKxGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=EtnzGQoVYhbqyRdU4oVe9WRaoPw@mail.gmail.com>

im interested in playdoh

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:04 AM, Kumar McMillan
<kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
> it's a little early, but hey why not ...
>
> Who wants to present at the next meeting?
>
> When: Thursday July 14th 2011 7 p.m.
> Where: Morningstar Inc: Global Headquarters 22 W Washington St
> Chicago, IL 60602
> _
>
> Geoff Hing has kindly offered to talk about the Apps for Metro
> project. ?i.e. Do cool stuff with data in Python!
> http://www.appsformetrochicago.org/
> _
>
> If there's interest, I can give a 20 min talk on Playdoh and how you can use it:
> http://playdoh.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
>
> Playdoh is Mozilla's starter kit for new Django projects. ?It aims to
> be secure-by-default and set up all the same goodies we use to scale
> for high traffic, perform background tasks, localize our sites in many
> languages, and other cool things.
> _
>
> Any other topics?
>
> This could well be the best meeting ever...
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Jul  1 17:40:36 2011
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 10:40:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Brief Apps for Metro Chicago talk at the next ChiPy
	meetup
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=t==UjJ=qAPjNOnpRg7UPDR-5qPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=t==UjJ=qAPjNOnpRg7UPDR-5qPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=He8vF10UAN+s1hWz09OT-xkDaEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Geoffrey Hing <ghing at mcic.org> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm a developer at the Metro Chicago Information Center.? We're helping to
> run the Apps for Metro Chicago competition
> (http://www.appsformetrochicago.org/) that's happening now.

If this is interesting to folks and you have an idea for an app, I'd
recommend signing up now:
https://spreadsheets0.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&formkey=dHptWEprWHRMVnl5V19ENXdRNlBPQkE6MQ#gid=0

The hack day is July 16 (2 days after the chipy meeting) and it looks
like it might run out of space.  Be sure to jot down an idea or two
because on another mailing I'm on it was announced that when they run
out of space they will pick attendees by the best ideas.

> As part of my
> work, I'm trying to drop by as many Chicago developer meetups as possible to
> do a quick presentation about the competition, answer any questions that
> developers may have and help link developers with community organizations or
> the legacy business community (the judging rubric for the competition favors
> apps that come out of these partnerships).
>
> I'm wondering if it would be possible for me to give a brief talk about the
> competition at the next ChiPy meetup?
>
> Also, If any of you has any questions about Apps for Metro Chicago, please
> feel free to post a question to http://apps4chicago.zendesk.com/ and I'll do
> my best to get you a prompt answer.
>
> Best,
> Geoff
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From ghing at mcic.org  Fri Jul  1 17:59:30 2011
From: ghing at mcic.org (Geoffrey Hing)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 10:59:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Brief Apps for Metro Chicago talk at the next ChiPy
	meetup
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=He8vF10UAN+s1hWz09OT-xkDaEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=t==UjJ=qAPjNOnpRg7UPDR-5qPw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=He8vF10UAN+s1hWz09OT-xkDaEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikvJ2P2RY_aU+34TKAx6M3C+_n_Lw@mail.gmail.com>

 Here's more information about the Google-hosted hack day that is on July 16
that Kumar mentioned in his last e-mail. I think it's going to be really
awesome!

Best, Geoff

8<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary: We?re looking for engineers and developers in the Chicago area to
come together to build some amazing apps in one day.

John Tolva (CTO) and Brett Goldstein (CDO) over in the Mayor's office have
been working night and day to get some amazing datasets out to us (and in
useful formats, no less!), so what better way to celebrate than get together
and do some Really Cool (TM) stuff with that data.

I'm happy to announce that Google Chicago is going to be hosting a hackathon
on July 16th from 9:00AM to 7:00PM to see what kind of cool things we can do
with the city?s open datasets (from visualizations to mashups to analysis to
whatever you can think of).  Oh, and did I mention that there will be food
and prizes?

Actually the prizes come if you enter the Apps for Metro Chicago
<http://appsformetrochicago.org/>competition. The city, county, state and
CMAP have come together to offer
prizes<http://appsformetrochicago.org/content/rules#prizes>in multiple
categories for app submissions using their data. You certainly
don?t have to enter, but why not if you build something cool?

We?ve already got some all-star guests coming:

   - Harper Reed (from Harper Is Awesome, LLC)
   - David Beazley (of Python fame)
   - Daniel X. O'Neil (Everyblock)
   - Dan Sinker (Of
www.chicagomayoralscorecard.**com/<http://www.chicagomayoralscorecard.com/>and,
ahem, Twitter fame)
   - Scott Robbin (of Weightshift and wasmycartowed.com fame)
   - Blagica Bottigliero (Motorola)

Unfortunately, we?ve got limited space, so if you?re interested in
attending, please fill out this form ASAP with your information and if we
wind up with an overwhelming number of people, we?ll pick the best ideas :-)


https://spreadsheets0.google.**com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=**
en_US&hl=en_US&formkey=**dHptWEprWHRMVnl5V19ENXdRNlBPQk**E6MQ#gid=0<https://spreadsheets0.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&formkey=dHptWEprWHRMVnl5V19ENXdRNlBPQkE6MQ#gid=0>
.
 -Fitz
 Brian Fitzpatrick
The Data Liberation Front
Google Chicago

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Kumar McMillan <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Geoffrey Hing <ghing at mcic.org> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm a developer at the Metro Chicago Information Center.  We're helping
> to
> > run the Apps for Metro Chicago competition
> > (http://www.appsformetrochicago.org/) that's happening now.
>
> If this is interesting to folks and you have an idea for an app, I'd
> recommend signing up now:
>
> https://spreadsheets0.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&formkey=dHptWEprWHRMVnl5V19ENXdRNlBPQkE6MQ#gid=0
>
> The hack day is July 16 (2 days after the chipy meeting) and it looks
> like it might run out of space.  Be sure to jot down an idea or two
> because on another mailing I'm on it was announced that when they run
> out of space they will pick attendees by the best ideas.
>
> > As part of my
> > work, I'm trying to drop by as many Chicago developer meetups as possible
> to
> > do a quick presentation about the competition, answer any questions that
> > developers may have and help link developers with community organizations
> or
> > the legacy business community (the judging rubric for the competition
> favors
> > apps that come out of these partnerships).
> >
> > I'm wondering if it would be possible for me to give a brief talk about
> the
> > competition at the next ChiPy meetup?
> >
> > Also, If any of you has any questions about Apps for Metro Chicago,
> please
> > feel free to post a question to http://apps4chicago.zendesk.com/ and
> I'll do
> > my best to get you a prompt answer.
> >
> > Best,
> > Geoff
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Fri Jul  1 18:29:01 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 11:29:01 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Brief Apps for Metro Chicago talk at the next ChiPy
	meetup
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikvJ2P2RY_aU+34TKAx6M3C+_n_Lw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=t==UjJ=qAPjNOnpRg7UPDR-5qPw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=He8vF10UAN+s1hWz09OT-xkDaEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikvJ2P2RY_aU+34TKAx6M3C+_n_Lw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimv_bL7uAw++z1zjyszVQcm2-YjNw@mail.gmail.com>

Its being held at google chicago right?

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Geoffrey Hing <ghing at mcic.org> wrote:
> Here's more information about the Google-hosted hack day that is on July 16
> that Kumar mentioned in his last e-mail. I think it's going to be really
> awesome!
> Best, Geoff
> 8<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Summary: We?re looking for engineers and developers in the Chicago area to
> come together to build some amazing apps in one day.
>
> John Tolva (CTO) and Brett Goldstein (CDO) over in the Mayor's office have
> been working night and day to get some amazing datasets out to us (and in
> useful formats, no less!), so what better way to celebrate than get together
> and do some Really Cool (TM) stuff with that data.
>
> I'm happy to announce that Google Chicago is going to be hosting a hackathon
> on July 16th from 9:00AM to 7:00PM to see what kind of cool things we can do
> with the city?s open datasets (from visualizations to mashups to analysis to
> whatever you can think of). ?Oh, and did I mention that there will be food
> and prizes?
>
> Actually the prizes come if you enter the Apps for Metro Chicago
> competition. The city, county, state and CMAP have come together to offer
> prizes in multiple categories for app submissions using their data. You
> certainly don?t have to enter, but why not if you build something cool?
>
> We?ve already got some all-star guests coming:
>
> Harper Reed (from Harper Is Awesome, LLC)
> David Beazley (of Python fame)
> Daniel X. O'Neil (Everyblock)
> Dan Sinker (Of www.chicagomayoralscorecard.com/ and, ahem, Twitter fame)
> Scott Robbin (of Weightshift and wasmycartowed.com fame)
> Blagica Bottigliero (Motorola)
>
> Unfortunately, we?ve got limited space, so if you?re interested in
> attending, please fill out this form ASAP with your information and if we
> wind up with an overwhelming number of people, we?ll pick the best ideas :-)
>
> https://spreadsheets0.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&formkey=dHptWEprWHRMVnl5V19ENXdRNlBPQkE6MQ#gid=0.
> -Fitz
> Brian Fitzpatrick
> The Data Liberation Front
> Google Chicago
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Kumar McMillan <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Geoffrey Hing <ghing at mcic.org> wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I'm a developer at the Metro Chicago Information Center.? We're helping
>> > to
>> > run the Apps for Metro Chicago competition
>> > (http://www.appsformetrochicago.org/) that's happening now.
>>
>> If this is interesting to folks and you have an idea for an app, I'd
>> recommend signing up now:
>>
>> https://spreadsheets0.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&formkey=dHptWEprWHRMVnl5V19ENXdRNlBPQkE6MQ#gid=0
>>
>> The hack day is July 16 (2 days after the chipy meeting) and it looks
>> like it might run out of space. ?Be sure to jot down an idea or two
>> because on another mailing I'm on it was announced that when they run
>> out of space they will pick attendees by the best ideas.
>>
>> > As part of my
>> > work, I'm trying to drop by as many Chicago developer meetups as
>> > possible to
>> > do a quick presentation about the competition, answer any questions that
>> > developers may have and help link developers with community
>> > organizations or
>> > the legacy business community (the judging rubric for the competition
>> > favors
>> > apps that come out of these partnerships).
>> >
>> > I'm wondering if it would be possible for me to give a brief talk about
>> > the
>> > competition at the next ChiPy meetup?
>> >
>> > Also, If any of you has any questions about Apps for Metro Chicago,
>> > please
>> > feel free to post a question to http://apps4chicago.zendesk.com/ and
>> > I'll do
>> > my best to get you a prompt answer.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Geoff
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From brian.curtin at gmail.com  Fri Jul  1 18:34:44 2011
From: brian.curtin at gmail.com (Brian Curtin)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 11:34:44 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Brief Apps for Metro Chicago talk at the next ChiPy
	meetup
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimv_bL7uAw++z1zjyszVQcm2-YjNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=t==UjJ=qAPjNOnpRg7UPDR-5qPw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=He8vF10UAN+s1hWz09OT-xkDaEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikvJ2P2RY_aU+34TKAx6M3C+_n_Lw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimv_bL7uAw++z1zjyszVQcm2-YjNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=fDLFvQ4V8rwdtqvXr+quqp4ya2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 11:29, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>wrote:

> Its being held at google chicago right?


Yes. "I'm happy to announce that Google Chicago is going to be hosting..."
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From maney at two14.net  Sun Jul  3 08:11:27 2011
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 01:11:27 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] book for review: Standard Lib
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikrTF22PiYqRQODcWuNSNxWCoAveA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=W6YE9Jc98ZqVJCoi-vzurtynbEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimW_9uRKbsmYZR0CEFHAMrpboK98A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=X8D=gzpeQzLq4FvN10bBJOigzYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinD6w5eEjShBTdiM_NvQQd05SEK0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikrTF22PiYqRQODcWuNSNxWCoAveA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110703061127.GA2428@furrr.two14.net>

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 03:49:25PM -0500, Carl Karsten wrote:
> nope.  I just skipped to the end to see how many pages it was.
>
> 1288.

In that case, the review is simple.  "This is the sort of book which
should be thrown aside with great force.  Unfortunately it is too
damned heavy, so we had to burn it instead."

-- 
In the details, the lovely details, the devil sleeps tonight!


From emperorcezar at gmail.com  Sun Jul  3 17:51:15 2011
From: emperorcezar at gmail.com (Adam Jenkins)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 10:51:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] book for review: Standard Lib
In-Reply-To: <20110703061127.GA2428@furrr.two14.net>
References: <BANLkTi=W6YE9Jc98ZqVJCoi-vzurtynbEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimW_9uRKbsmYZR0CEFHAMrpboK98A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=X8D=gzpeQzLq4FvN10bBJOigzYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinD6w5eEjShBTdiM_NvQQd05SEK0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikrTF22PiYqRQODcWuNSNxWCoAveA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110703061127.GA2428@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <CAN6vQqv9ROMkM3YACNJQoLX89dJ90M5SdUBfJWSKZyYCwGsquw@mail.gmail.com>

It's hard to review a reference book. You can't "read" it. It must be
used in practice for a while to see if it measures up.

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 1:11 AM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 03:49:25PM -0500, Carl Karsten wrote:
>> nope. ?I just skipped to the end to see how many pages it was.
>>
>> 1288.
>
> In that case, the review is simple. ?"This is the sort of book which
> should be thrown aside with great force. ?Unfortunately it is too
> damned heavy, so we had to burn it instead."
>
> --
> In the details, the lovely details, the devil sleeps tonight!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From maney at two14.net  Sun Jul  3 18:20:55 2011
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 11:20:55 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] book for review: Standard Lib
In-Reply-To: <CAN6vQqv9ROMkM3YACNJQoLX89dJ90M5SdUBfJWSKZyYCwGsquw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=W6YE9Jc98ZqVJCoi-vzurtynbEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimW_9uRKbsmYZR0CEFHAMrpboK98A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=X8D=gzpeQzLq4FvN10bBJOigzYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinD6w5eEjShBTdiM_NvQQd05SEK0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikrTF22PiYqRQODcWuNSNxWCoAveA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110703061127.GA2428@furrr.two14.net>
	<CAN6vQqv9ROMkM3YACNJQoLX89dJ90M5SdUBfJWSKZyYCwGsquw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110703162055.GA14917@furrr.two14.net>

On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 10:51:15AM -0500, Adam Jenkins wrote:
> It's hard to review a reference book. You can't "read" it. It must be
> used in practice for a while to see if it measures up.

Then it even simpler: Paper books are for reading.  Paper reference
books are just obsolete.

But I wanted to paraphrase Dorothy Parker, or whichever Algonquin wit
actually coined that one - it's hard to pin it down.

-- 
Hebb's dictum:  If it isn't worth doing, it isn't worth doing well.


From brian.curtin at gmail.com  Sun Jul  3 18:34:43 2011
From: brian.curtin at gmail.com (Brian Curtin)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 11:34:43 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] book for review: Standard Lib
In-Reply-To: <20110703162055.GA14917@furrr.two14.net>
References: <BANLkTi=W6YE9Jc98ZqVJCoi-vzurtynbEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimW_9uRKbsmYZR0CEFHAMrpboK98A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=X8D=gzpeQzLq4FvN10bBJOigzYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinD6w5eEjShBTdiM_NvQQd05SEK0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikrTF22PiYqRQODcWuNSNxWCoAveA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110703061127.GA2428@furrr.two14.net>
	<CAN6vQqv9ROMkM3YACNJQoLX89dJ90M5SdUBfJWSKZyYCwGsquw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110703162055.GA14917@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwojbaBHt9c4Jwsb6KaMb4ZmW0JrMySPztMyfR0aovVwvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 11:20, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 10:51:15AM -0500, Adam Jenkins wrote:
> > It's hard to review a reference book. You can't "read" it. It must be
> > used in practice for a while to see if it measures up.
>
> Then it even simpler: Paper books are for reading.  Paper reference
> books are just obsolete.


It's a paper reference book of the best Python standard library reference
available - PyMOTW (Python Module of the Week). Pair it up with the standard
library API documentation and you have just about everything you'd need to
know.
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From maney at two14.net  Sun Jul  3 19:20:30 2011
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 12:20:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] book for review: Standard Lib
In-Reply-To: <CAD+XWwojbaBHt9c4Jwsb6KaMb4ZmW0JrMySPztMyfR0aovVwvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=W6YE9Jc98ZqVJCoi-vzurtynbEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimW_9uRKbsmYZR0CEFHAMrpboK98A@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=X8D=gzpeQzLq4FvN10bBJOigzYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTinD6w5eEjShBTdiM_NvQQd05SEK0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikrTF22PiYqRQODcWuNSNxWCoAveA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110703061127.GA2428@furrr.two14.net>
	<CAN6vQqv9ROMkM3YACNJQoLX89dJ90M5SdUBfJWSKZyYCwGsquw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110703162055.GA14917@furrr.two14.net>
	<CAD+XWwojbaBHt9c4Jwsb6KaMb4ZmW0JrMySPztMyfR0aovVwvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110703172030.GC14917@furrr.two14.net>

On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 11:34:43AM -0500, Brian Curtin wrote:
> > Then it even simpler: Paper books are for reading.  Paper reference
> > books are just obsolete.
> 
> It's a paper reference book of the best Python standard library reference
> available - PyMOTW (Python Module of the Week). Pair it up with the standard
> library API documentation and you have just about everything you'd need to
> know.

Sorry, that wasn't obvious to me, and I assumed the preceeding
repondent was right about it being a reference work.  Based on a couple
of articles I just looked at, I wouldn't call MOTW a reference at all,
at all - that's a tutorial in the original sense of a text that
introduces you to the content and ideas.  A great sort of thing if
that's what you want, but I've been there and done that and that sort
of thing makes a really lousy *reference*.  OTOH, a paper edition of
that would be a reasonable choice, as it's suitable for reading.

-- 
...programming is a desperate losing battle
against the unconquerable complexity of code
and the treachery of requirements  --  Jonathan Edwards


From adrian at holovaty.com  Wed Jul  6 21:24:17 2011
From: adrian at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 14:24:17 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python job in Chicago: Developer at EveryBlock
Message-ID: <CABm4ZCTs1KT601j_UD6sC1QsrziQnF6MeN7-whrHgGHEK_w59g@mail.gmail.com>

Hey guys,

We're hiring another developer to work with us at EveryBlock, here in Chicago!

Here's the info: http://blog.everyblock.com/2011/jul/06/job/

We work primarily in Python, though this person will also have a hand
in building mobile applications. We're "Jack-or-Jill of all trades"
people and expect to hire somebody who's equally comfortable writing a
Django view, debugging JavaScript, optimizing database queries, etc.

It's a really great place to work -- the perfect balance of startup
atmosphere and stability of a big company (we're owned by msnbc.com).
And we haven't hired developers very often, so you really should jump
on this. :-)

I'm happy to answer questions if you've got 'em, and one of these
months I'll make it to a Chipy meeting again if I can ever get out of
my Thursday night guitar classes.

Thanks for reading,
Adrian

From brian.curtin at gmail.com  Thu Jul  7 17:57:41 2011
From: brian.curtin at gmail.com (Brian Curtin)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:57:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Edge detection and video processing with PyPy
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwrtaTjLnLzu=10=MB=Ygpjhrf2tp=b9q+eh7toF1zVxGw@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting blog post from the PyPy group about image processing:
http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2011/07/realtime-image-processing-in-python.html

Might be useful for any of you involved in this crazy robot stuff we've seen
at recent meetings.
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From brianhray at gmail.com  Thu Jul  7 18:17:01 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 11:17:01 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting topics
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinOpW6Fy0f7ojbJhg_sFNjxrhKxGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinOpW6Fy0f7ojbJhg_sFNjxrhKxGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38v2ewhzXX9kxqsAydYVBm73GP=5U+b2EkgmQtC6SmkKAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:04 AM, Kumar McMillan <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com>wrote:

> it's a little early, but hey why not ...
>
> Who wants to present at the next meeting?
>
> When: Thursday July 14th 2011 7 p.m.
> Where: Morningstar Inc: Global Headquarters 22 W Washington St
> Chicago, IL 60602
> _
>
> Geoff Hing has kindly offered to talk about the Apps for Metro
> project.  i.e. Do cool stuff with data in Python!
> http://www.appsformetrochicago.org/
> _
>
> If there's interest, I can give a 20 min talk on Playdoh and how you can
> use it:
> http://playdoh.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
>
> Playdoh is Mozilla's starter kit for new Django projects.  It aims to
> be secure-by-default and set up all the same goodies we use to scale
> for high traffic, perform background tasks, localize our sites in many
> languages, and other cool things.
> _



I added to http://chipy.org

Anyone is welcome to have an account to the admin for chipy.org just send me
your username you used to sign up for an account.

Recall, http://chipy.org is a product of our ChiPy Mentoring program and we
have some neat new features coming this month including embedded meeting
location maps!

-- 

Brian Ray
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From fitz at red-bean.com  Thu Jul  7 21:34:42 2011
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 14:34:42 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Brief Apps for Metro Chicago talk at the next ChiPy
	meetup
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=fDLFvQ4V8rwdtqvXr+quqp4ya2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=t==UjJ=qAPjNOnpRg7UPDR-5qPw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=He8vF10UAN+s1hWz09OT-xkDaEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikvJ2P2RY_aU+34TKAx6M3C+_n_Lw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimv_bL7uAw++z1zjyszVQcm2-YjNw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=fDLFvQ4V8rwdtqvXr+quqp4ya2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANdQXpY5-5sO88ooudLo+HbnBABinQUU7T6Bcxd9xk9YVfH6-A@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, and you should all come and build cool shit. :-)

-Fitz

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 11:29, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Its being held at google chicago right?
>
>
> Yes. "I'm happy to announce that Google Chicago is going to be hosting..."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From brianhray at gmail.com  Thu Jul  7 21:36:18 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 14:36:18 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Brief Apps for Metro Chicago talk at the next ChiPy
	meetup
In-Reply-To: <CANdQXpY5-5sO88ooudLo+HbnBABinQUU7T6Bcxd9xk9YVfH6-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=t==UjJ=qAPjNOnpRg7UPDR-5qPw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=He8vF10UAN+s1hWz09OT-xkDaEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikvJ2P2RY_aU+34TKAx6M3C+_n_Lw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimv_bL7uAw++z1zjyszVQcm2-YjNw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=fDLFvQ4V8rwdtqvXr+quqp4ya2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANdQXpY5-5sO88ooudLo+HbnBABinQUU7T6Bcxd9xk9YVfH6-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38tagPn+DyPj06k=rjsQ=hR85CjR2xrMGtsOP61oK47JYA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fitz at red-bean.com>wrote:

> Yes, and you should all come and build cool shit. :-)
>


\me updates ChiPy Topic Title to "building cool shit"

-- 

Brian Ray
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Thu Jul  7 21:42:30 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 14:42:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Brief Apps for Metro Chicago talk at the next ChiPy
	meetup
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38tagPn+DyPj06k=rjsQ=hR85CjR2xrMGtsOP61oK47JYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=t==UjJ=qAPjNOnpRg7UPDR-5qPw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=He8vF10UAN+s1hWz09OT-xkDaEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTikvJ2P2RY_aU+34TKAx6M3C+_n_Lw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTimv_bL7uAw++z1zjyszVQcm2-YjNw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=fDLFvQ4V8rwdtqvXr+quqp4ya2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANdQXpY5-5sO88ooudLo+HbnBABinQUU7T6Bcxd9xk9YVfH6-A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38tagPn+DyPj06k=rjsQ=hR85CjR2xrMGtsOP61oK47JYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=U6_OVmYYxPLXbc1Y2nwvcpZ_nWszWaztD1Bto8d0WPA@mail.gmail.com>

i'm trying to build cool shit with gae, python, and html stuff i'm
totally going!

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fitz at red-bean.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, and you should all come and build cool shit. :-)
>
> \me updates ChiPy Topic Title to "building cool shit"
>
> --
>
> Brian Ray
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From jonathan.hayward at pobox.com  Tue Jul  5 18:33:10 2011
From: jonathan.hayward at pobox.com (Jonathan Hayward)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 11:33:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Looking for a position
Message-ID: <CAE6_B5SrHYHwv5h-8cprrTqBdBy3fUx+NiH1fsxyfPjYG_MYYA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking for a position and wanted to see if anyone in the group had any
openings.

I'm looking for a contract-to-hire or full-time position at company
headquarters; I'm interested in usability, internal/intranet tools, and
having a large amount of responsibility for a small project. My main
interest is on the back end but I have tried to learn front end technologies
so I can handle front end responsibilities well even if they are not my main
responsibility. I am more or less a Unix/Linux generalist. I'd be interested
in hearing if you think you have something that might be a fit.

-- 
? Jonathan Hayward, Author, Django JavaScript Integration: AJAX and jQuery
<https://www.packtpub.com/django-javascript-integration-ajax-and-jquery/book>
? Author Bio <https://www.packtpub.com/authors/profiles/jonathan-hayward>
? LinkedIn
Profile <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanhayward> ?
jonathan.hayward at pobox.com
? Ajax, CGI, CMS, CSS, Django, HTML, IA, JSON, JavaScript, LAMP, Linux,
Perl, PHP, Python, SQL, UI, Unix, Usability, UX, XHTML, XML
? With a good interest in the human side of computing and making software
and websites a joy to use
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From brianhray at gmail.com  Sat Jul  9 16:51:52 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 09:51:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Lightening Themes
Message-ID: <CANKg38uKAdsiL=FGgQai0yV1rTi8cqnx0vqVai0DnvkvqVy=Bw@mail.gmail.com>

Looking for some content for next Thursday's meeting.

What are your thoughts on a series of *theme* based lightening talks. For
instance we pick one of:

 * one example where I rewrote something and got faster executing code
 * my algorithm implemented in Python
 * one feature I like about Python 3.0
 * this old project, I still love
 * one reason why my editor or ide is better than yours

Otherwise, I am still looking for some great content. Presentations of any
sort are welcome please. Submit your idea to this list for feedback.

Thank you, Brian Ray
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From jsudlow at gmail.com  Sun Jul 10 04:01:05 2011
From: jsudlow at gmail.com (Jon Sudlow)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 21:01:05 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Looking for a position
In-Reply-To: <CAE6_B5SrHYHwv5h-8cprrTqBdBy3fUx+NiH1fsxyfPjYG_MYYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6_B5SrHYHwv5h-8cprrTqBdBy3fUx+NiH1fsxyfPjYG_MYYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADZ0Dv-5GjXMUWWvA2fWY4nnb_7BFohkpFK8YwHQZRWB-22sqg@mail.gmail.com>

Jonathan,


Everyblock is hiring. I saw it on this list. Check them out
http://blog.everyblock.com/2011/jul/06/job/

-jon
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Jonathan Hayward <
jonathan.hayward at pobox.com> wrote:

> I'm looking for a position and wanted to see if anyone in the group had any
> openings.
>
> I'm looking for a contract-to-hire or full-time position at company
> headquarters; I'm interested in usability, internal/intranet tools, and
> having a large amount of responsibility for a small project. My main
> interest is on the back end but I have tried to learn front end technologies
> so I can handle front end responsibilities well even if they are not my main
> responsibility. I am more or less a Unix/Linux generalist. I'd be interested
> in hearing if you think you have something that might be a fit.
>
> --
> ? Jonathan Hayward, Author, Django JavaScript Integration: AJAX and jQuery
> <https://www.packtpub.com/django-javascript-integration-ajax-and-jquery/book>
> ? Author Bio <https://www.packtpub.com/authors/profiles/jonathan-hayward>
>  ? LinkedIn Profile <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanhayward> ?
> jonathan.hayward at pobox.com
> ? Ajax, CGI, CMS, CSS, Django, HTML, IA, JSON, JavaScript, LAMP, Linux,
> Perl, PHP, Python, SQL, UI, Unix, Usability, UX, XHTML, XML
> ? With a good interest in the human side of computing and making software
> and websites a joy to use
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From jonathan.hayward at pobox.com  Sun Jul 10 22:15:46 2011
From: jonathan.hayward at pobox.com (Jonathan Hayward)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 15:15:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Looking for a position
In-Reply-To: <CADZ0Dv-5GjXMUWWvA2fWY4nnb_7BFohkpFK8YwHQZRWB-22sqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6_B5SrHYHwv5h-8cprrTqBdBy3fUx+NiH1fsxyfPjYG_MYYA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADZ0Dv-5GjXMUWWvA2fWY4nnb_7BFohkpFK8YwHQZRWB-22sqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6_B5REYQRiDKbKcQAFbg95ZJKpqGxgWOqTR1PyZqcjw53RLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you. I've applied.

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Jon Sudlow <jsudlow at gmail.com> wrote:

> Jonathan,
>
>
> Everyblock is hiring. I saw it on this list. Check them out
> http://blog.everyblock.com/2011/jul/06/job/
>
> -jon
> On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Jonathan Hayward <
> jonathan.hayward at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for a position and wanted to see if anyone in the group had
>> any openings.
>>
>> I'm looking for a contract-to-hire or full-time position at company
>> headquarters; I'm interested in usability, internal/intranet tools, and
>> having a large amount of responsibility for a small project. My main
>> interest is on the back end but I have tried to learn front end technologies
>> so I can handle front end responsibilities well even if they are not my main
>> responsibility. I am more or less a Unix/Linux generalist. I'd be interested
>> in hearing if you think you have something that might be a fit.
>>
>> --
>> ? Jonathan Hayward, Author, Django JavaScript Integration: AJAX and
>> jQuery
>> <https://www.packtpub.com/django-javascript-integration-ajax-and-jquery/book>
>> ? Author Bio <https://www.packtpub.com/authors/profiles/jonathan-hayward>
>>  ? LinkedIn Profile <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanhayward> ?
>> jonathan.hayward at pobox.com
>> ? Ajax, CGI, CMS, CSS, Django, HTML, IA, JSON, JavaScript, LAMP, Linux,
>> Perl, PHP, Python, SQL, UI, Unix, Usability, UX, XHTML, XML
>> ? With a good interest in the human side of computing and making software
>> and websites a joy to use
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>


-- 
? Jonathan Hayward, Author, Django JavaScript Integration: AJAX and jQuery
<https://www.packtpub.com/django-javascript-integration-ajax-and-jquery/book>
? Author Bio <https://www.packtpub.com/authors/profiles/jonathan-hayward>
? LinkedIn
Profile <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanhayward> ?
jonathan.hayward at pobox.com
? Ajax, CGI, CMS, CSS, Django, HTML, IA, JSON, JavaScript, LAMP, Linux,
Perl, PHP, Python, SQL, UI, Unix, Usability, UX, XHTML, XML
? With a good interest in the human side of computing and making software
and websites a joy to use
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From brianhray at gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 04:03:00 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:03:00 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] secret presentor
Message-ID: <CANKg38uPfTiCNY58Dd0wtAXfYjN+aEgqTVUXmsM2W2Vh-NinzQ@mail.gmail.com>

Someone I know who comes from the Ruby side of the world, and who also
really seems to love Python has raised his hand (when I asked him to :P)  to
give a talk on thursday. This will pretty much fill us up. more details
soon.
.. all I can say now is :  "best"... "meeting" ... "eva"!!

Also, can't wait to see your new venue, Morningstar. This is going to be
great!  Be there! Colder and geekier than being outside, I promise!

-- 

Brian Ray
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 04:11:18 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:11:18 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] secret presentor
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38uPfTiCNY58Dd0wtAXfYjN+aEgqTVUXmsM2W2Vh-NinzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANKg38uPfTiCNY58Dd0wtAXfYjN+aEgqTVUXmsM2W2Vh-NinzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=NBhqVQ1OoOnJOjXFiK=JAP3Lv0cOhTAhqP36OEZDANQ@mail.gmail.com>

I guess the first step is admitting you have a problem.

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
> Someone I know who comes from the Ruby side of the world, and who also
> really seems to love Python has raised his hand (when I asked him to :P) ?to
> give a talk on thursday. This will pretty much fill us up. more details
> soon.
> .. all I can say now is : ?"best"... "meeting" ... "eva"!!
> Also, can't wait to see your new venue, Morningstar. This is going to be
> great! ?Be there! Colder and geekier than being outside, I promise!
>
> --
>
> Brian Ray
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 13:30:41 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 06:30:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Lightening Themes
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38uKAdsiL=FGgQai0yV1rTi8cqnx0vqVai0DnvkvqVy=Bw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANKg38uKAdsiL=FGgQai0yV1rTi8cqnx0vqVai0DnvkvqVy=Bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=X3rnu9NT7emALHg3Ows7=bgqS8FkwJHWokajwnDrKzA@mail.gmail.com>

I could give a brief overview of my submission to apps for chi
On Jul 9, 2011 9:51 AM, "Brian Ray" <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
> Looking for some content for next Thursday's meeting.
>
> What are your thoughts on a series of *theme* based lightening talks. For
> instance we pick one of:
>
> * one example where I rewrote something and got faster executing code
> * my algorithm implemented in Python
> * one feature I like about Python 3.0
> * this old project, I still love
> * one reason why my editor or ide is better than yours
>
> Otherwise, I am still looking for some great content. Presentations of any
> sort are welcome please. Submit your idea to this list for feedback.
>
> Thank you, Brian Ray
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 13:32:17 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 06:32:17 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Lightening Themes
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38uKAdsiL=FGgQai0yV1rTi8cqnx0vqVai0DnvkvqVy=Bw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANKg38uKAdsiL=FGgQai0yV1rTi8cqnx0vqVai0DnvkvqVy=Bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zm7gdfBPT1=_cVdTFycRgf+CgMZcL4n50QhS8ewcdBu2w@mail.gmail.com>

By that I mean the google event that was posted happening on Saturday. The
metro apps for chicago. The theme would be google app engine, python, and
geolocation
On Jul 9, 2011 9:51 AM, "Brian Ray" <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
> Looking for some content for next Thursday's meeting.
>
> What are your thoughts on a series of *theme* based lightening talks. For
> instance we pick one of:
>
> * one example where I rewrote something and got faster executing code
> * my algorithm implemented in Python
> * one feature I like about Python 3.0
> * this old project, I still love
> * one reason why my editor or ide is better than yours
>
> Otherwise, I am still looking for some great content. Presentations of any
> sort are welcome please. Submit your idea to this list for feedback.
>
> Thank you, Brian Ray
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From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 17:34:17 2011
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:34:17 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Lightening Themes
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zm7gdfBPT1=_cVdTFycRgf+CgMZcL4n50QhS8ewcdBu2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANKg38uKAdsiL=FGgQai0yV1rTi8cqnx0vqVai0DnvkvqVy=Bw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zm7gdfBPT1=_cVdTFycRgf+CgMZcL4n50QhS8ewcdBu2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+VOWAGtk54EtFP9Qar3vPmiuez23SM_Rpy7SeHqYDBZSos=-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 6:32 AM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com> wrote:
> By that I mean the google event that was posted happening on Saturday. The
> metro apps for chicago. The theme would be google app engine, python, and
> geolocation

+1 for this. The new App Engine geo location API looks really nice.

>
> On Jul 9, 2011 9:51 AM, "Brian Ray" <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Looking for some content for next Thursday's meeting.
>>
>> What are your thoughts on a series of *theme* based lightening talks. For
>> instance we pick one of:
>>
>> * one example where I rewrote something and got faster executing code
>> * my algorithm implemented in Python
>> * one feature I like about Python 3.0
>> * this old project, I still love
>> * one reason why my editor or ide is better than yours
>>
>> Otherwise, I am still looking for some great content. Presentations of any
>> sort are welcome please. Submit your idea to this list for feedback.
>>
>> Thank you, Brian Ray
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From brianhray at gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 17:56:48 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:56:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Talk Proposal
Message-ID: <CANKg38v+-NDuVVk+67_KXq06eU=TO2PQ392praGcJwjHJk=4hg@mail.gmail.com>

Hey group:

Here is the talk proposal from my secret-no-more-presenter.  can I see a +1
pls!!!  I think this will be a great talk.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Paul Pagel <paul at 8thlight.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:38 AM..
To: Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com>


I would like to do a code kata based talk.  Katas are small algorithms that
we do as developers to practice coding.

I will do a live kata with one of my apprentices, I will do ruby, he python.

Then I will give a brief history of code katas and why deliberate practice
is important to the professional software developer.

Then there will be an exercise (a kata) that we will do as a group, both in
python and in ruby.

Finally we will show a few of the different solutions (both ruby and
python).  I want to exaggerate the difference between the languages as small
and the larger difference is how we approach problems and self improvement
as software professionals.

Does this work?
Paul
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From heflin.rosst at gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 18:15:47 2011
From: heflin.rosst at gmail.com (Ross Heflin)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:15:47 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Talk Proposal
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38v+-NDuVVk+67_KXq06eU=TO2PQ392praGcJwjHJk=4hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANKg38v+-NDuVVk+67_KXq06eU=TO2PQ392praGcJwjHJk=4hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGy=3C5BqgYALPzFXaDZirKHRYoMY_0-t3X=hxm8h74R4Tm9GQ@mail.gmail.com>

+1
On Jul 11, 2011 11:13 AM, "Brian Ray" <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey group:
>
> Here is the talk proposal from my secret-no-more-presenter. can I see a +1
> pls!!! I think this will be a great talk.
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Paul Pagel <paul at 8thlight.com>
> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:38 AM..
> To: Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com>
>
>
> I would like to do a code kata based talk. Katas are small algorithms that
> we do as developers to practice coding.
>
> I will do a live kata with one of my apprentices, I will do ruby, he
python.
>
> Then I will give a brief history of code katas and why deliberate practice
> is important to the professional software developer.
>
> Then there will be an exercise (a kata) that we will do as a group, both
in
> python and in ruby.
>
> Finally we will show a few of the different solutions (both ruby and
> python). I want to exaggerate the difference between the languages as
small
> and the larger difference is how we approach problems and self improvement
> as software professionals.
>
> Does this work?
> Paul
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From m-rich at northwestern.edu  Mon Jul 11 18:45:22 2011
From: m-rich at northwestern.edu (Matthew T Rich)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:45:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Talk Proposal
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38v+-NDuVVk+67_KXq06eU=TO2PQ392praGcJwjHJk=4hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANKg38v+-NDuVVk+67_KXq06eU=TO2PQ392praGcJwjHJk=4hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58C3F9ED-8A45-4C0E-9BAC-14C9356EC567@northwestern.edu>

+1

This sounds really cool!

On Jul 11, 2011, at 10:56 AM, Brian Ray wrote:

> Hey group:
> 
> Here is the talk proposal from my secret-no-more-presenter.  can I see a +1 pls!!!  I think this will be a great talk.
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Paul Pagel <paul at 8thlight.com>
> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:38 AM..
> To: Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com>
> 
> 
> I would like to do a code kata based talk.  Katas are small algorithms that we do as developers to practice coding.
> 
> I will do a live kata with one of my apprentices, I will do ruby, he python.
> 
> Then I will give a brief history of code katas and why deliberate practice is important to the professional software developer.
> 
> Then there will be an exercise (a kata) that we will do as a group, both in python and in ruby.  
> 
> Finally we will show a few of the different solutions (both ruby and python).  I want to exaggerate the difference between the languages as small and the larger difference is how we approach problems and self improvement as software professionals.
> 
> Does this work?
> Paul
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

--
Matthew Rich
Senior Web Application Developer
Northwestern University
School of Education and Social Policy
Annenberg Hall, Room 249
+1 847 467 2819
m-rich at northwestern.edu



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From danieltpeters at gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 19:21:55 2011
From: danieltpeters at gmail.com (Daniel Peters)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 12:21:55 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Talk Proposal
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38v+-NDuVVk+67_KXq06eU=TO2PQ392praGcJwjHJk=4hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANKg38v+-NDuVVk+67_KXq06eU=TO2PQ392praGcJwjHJk=4hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHzLg+YuBQYjB+afURNcvL_9914=agHYqux9aoSu11ZfMJqZRA@mail.gmail.com>

sweet

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey group:
>
> Here is the talk proposal from my secret-no-more-presenter.  can I see a +1
> pls!!!  I think this will be a great talk.
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Paul Pagel <paul at 8thlight.com>
> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:38 AM..
> To: Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com>
>
>
> I would like to do a code kata based talk.  Katas are small algorithms that
> we do as developers to practice coding.
>
> I will do a live kata with one of my apprentices, I will do ruby, he
> python.
>
> Then I will give a brief history of code katas and why deliberate practice
> is important to the professional software developer.
>
> Then there will be an exercise (a kata) that we will do as a group, both in
> python and in ruby.
>
> Finally we will show a few of the different solutions (both ruby and
> python).  I want to exaggerate the difference between the languages as small
> and the larger difference is how we approach problems and self improvement
> as software professionals.
>
> Does this work?
> Paul
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From cwebber at dustycloud.org  Tue Jul 12 00:26:50 2011
From: cwebber at dustycloud.org (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:26:50 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Be my boss! Work for Creative Commons as CTO! (But you
	gotta move...)
Message-ID: <87zkkko3md.fsf@grumps.lan>

Hey all,

As some of you know, I work as a software engineer for Creative Commons.
If you like free and open source software, like python, and think the
word "CTO" sounds interesting as a job title, I encourage you to apply:

http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/28240

(Send me an email while you apply though also, it helps.)

Unfortunately in an evil plot to steal members away from ChiPy, this
requires relocation to Mountain View.  However, it's pretty awesome, we
use a ton of python, and ChiPy members are pretty great candidates, so
I'm sending this mail here anyway.

I'm burning up mailing list karma so you can be my boss, so you'd better
apply!
 - Chris

-- 
??????????? ????? ??????

From brianhray at gmail.com  Tue Jul 12 04:34:39 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:34:39 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy July Meeting at Morningstar Thurs 14
Message-ID: <CANKg38v+k18eLLWciB51YtAiWp62OeyQmDWrKYFFpmPwoq4RCg@mail.gmail.com>

Chicago Python User Group
=======================

When: 7 PM Thursday July 14, 2011
Where:?Morningstar Inc: Global Headquarters 22 W Washington St 7th
floor Chicago, IL 60602

Join us for the best meeting ever!

You will need to RSVP at?http://chipy.org/

RSVP Quick Links:

YES?http://chipy.org/meetings/rsvp/35/yes
MAYBE?http://chipy.org/meetings/rsvp/35/maybe

Topics
------
  (pre) 6:30 Meet and greet, food! (Morningstar)
? 1. 7:00 Apps for Metro (Geoff Hing)
? 2. 7:30 Playdoh (Kumar McMilla)
  3. 7:55 five Minute break & book give away
? 4. 8:00 Katas in Ruby and Python (Paul Pagel)

Details
-------

Meet and greet
(:30 Twenty Minutes)
during: word from Morningstar and lightening talk by Joshua
Herman on appengine geo location API

1. Apps for Metro
(:20 Twenty Minutes)
By: Geoff Hing
Apps for Metro Chicago, Illinois is the first apps competition to be a
collaborative effort among four governmental agencies. Submit your
Python project into the competition!

2. Playdoh
(:20 Twenty Minutes)
By: Kumar McMillan
Playdoh is Mozilla's starter kit for new Django projects. It aims to
be secure-by-default and set up all the same goodies we use to scale
for high traffic, perform background tasks, localize our sites in many
languages, and other cool things.

3. Break and Free Books
(:05 Five Minutes)

4. Katas in Ruby and Python
(:45 Forty-Five Minutes)
By: Paul Pagel
Parallel *live* Katas programming done in Ruby, then mirrored in
Python followed by a brief history of code katas and why deliberate
practice is important to the professional software developer. Then an
exercise (in kata) that we will be done as a group, both in Python and in
Ruby-- with a comparison of different solutions (both Ruby and
Python). We want to exaggerate the difference between the languages as
small and the larger difference is how we approach problems and self
improvement as software professionals.


Location
--------

Morningstar Inc: Global Headquarters
22 W Washington St, 7th floor
Chicago, IL 60602
Place Page:?http://bit.ly/pQmlaC

THANKS!
-------

Video Sponsor:
Paul May, ForecastWatch and Imaginary Landscape

Food and Venue Hosts:
Morningstar Inc

For making the worlds best programming language:
Python Software Foundation

For making a great home for tech new and old, big and small:
The City of Chicago

For being a great fury animal:
ChiPy the Maskot


About the group
---------------

ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago. Also,
ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational efforts
in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.

ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List:
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce>
Python website: <http://python.org>

From brianhray at gmail.com  Wed Jul 13 00:13:33 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:13:33 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Social login helpers
Message-ID: <CANKg38t=p1DtS7Bs1SKB9bdmyyrWR3ed8CB_GXpKHARQo4CRWA@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder what people are using to login from sites like
http://chicago.everyblock.com/ with their openIDs like from
facebook...etc...

Has anyone used Gigya or Janrain?  What were your experiences? Was it
worth it? I presume you used the RESTful API from python. It seems
like they are the middle-men and you would have to trust they are up
all the time and provide good service. I guess it is not so hard to
use the facebook api ... but do you have to follow their changes like
from openid2, 3 ...

I guess an open source model would not work if you have to rely on the
middle man approach. Nonetheless, I bet there are some helper modules
out there.

-- 

Brian Ray

From brianhray at gmail.com  Wed Jul 13 23:23:41 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:23:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Remember to RSVP for tomorrow's meeting
Message-ID: <CANKg38tNvXDQkPNe8ST_mKCYd156EsWru74jhVixGy2grdi=+g@mail.gmail.com>

reminder, this will be the best meeting ever.

By the way, food/drink will show up at 6:30 so if you want some be
sure to show up early.

They will be checking your ID at the door.

RSVP at http://chipy.org/

RSVP Quick Links:

YES http://chipy.org/meetings/rsvp/35/yes
MAYBE http://chipy.org/meetings/rsvp/35/maybe

From g at rre.tt  Fri Jul 15 05:25:16 2011
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 21:25:16 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Python Gangsta Rap
Message-ID: <CACU=p6u1kBLC_B-h7NR2rnjD2bAg8CW-427FhEK9T23C=Oi1wg@mail.gmail.com>

Wish I could have made it tonight. Here's the official link to a
lightning talk I would have otherwise given.

http://shardingdevnull.com/python-gangsta-rap

Garrett

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 05:52:40 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 22:52:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python Gangsta Rap
In-Reply-To: <CACU=p6u1kBLC_B-h7NR2rnjD2bAg8CW-427FhEK9T23C=Oi1wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACU=p6u1kBLC_B-h7NR2rnjD2bAg8CW-427FhEK9T23C=Oi1wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1znQ9dDpuVoP+PEv9siWib3sXzDHJjt5Mj_n7TeMXAELaA@mail.gmail.com>

Can you perform it live next time (not a video)?
On Jul 14, 2011 10:25 PM, "Garrett Smith" <g at rre.tt> wrote:
> Wish I could have made it tonight. Here's the official link to a
> lightning talk I would have otherwise given.
>
> http://shardingdevnull.com/python-gangsta-rap
>
> Garrett
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From g at rre.tt  Fri Jul 15 06:03:00 2011
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 22:03:00 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Python Gangsta Rap
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1znQ9dDpuVoP+PEv9siWib3sXzDHJjt5Mj_n7TeMXAELaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACU=p6u1kBLC_B-h7NR2rnjD2bAg8CW-427FhEK9T23C=Oi1wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1znQ9dDpuVoP+PEv9siWib3sXzDHJjt5Mj_n7TeMXAELaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACU=p6vAMEYbpMsUBCYSSLNiVssBAvhz6TdSEe-HcKtzgL5-PQ@mail.gmail.com>

My rhythm isn't as good as the bear's.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:52 PM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can you perform it live next time (not a video)?
>
> On Jul 14, 2011 10:25 PM, "Garrett Smith" <g at rre.tt> wrote:
>> Wish I could have made it tonight. Here's the official link to a
>> lightning talk I would have otherwise given.
>>
>> http://shardingdevnull.com/python-gangsta-rap
>>
>> Garrett
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 18:05:10 2011
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:05:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Playdoh: Mozilla's Django starter kit
Message-ID: <CA+VOWAHzLp5A2qqj=9c8cTWEmrdLYmqtfBZxV93huPEQqKoxSw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all.
In my presentation last night I mentioned how each part of Playdoh is
a standalone Django app that you can cherry pick into your website.
Some people were asking me about those apps so here are the slides,
which have links to each one:
http://farmdev.com/talks/playdoh/

And the full Playdoh docs are here: http://playdoh.readthedocs.org/en/latest/

Thanks to Morning Star for hosting in their brand new offices -- I
felt like I was in a hip space station.  I dare say that might have
been the best ChiPy meeting ever!  Next month's could be even better
...


-Kumar

From aphor at me.com  Fri Jul 15 20:05:09 2011
From: aphor at me.com (Jeremy McMillan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 13:05:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python Gangsta Rap
In-Reply-To: <mailman.21.1310724001.14821.chicago@python.org>
References: <mailman.21.1310724001.14821.chicago@python.org>
Message-ID: <3F1C06EE-995F-47FE-80E9-830CC4003B36@me.com>

OK, we need to add some media to Chipy website.

On Jul 15, 2011, at 5:00 AM, chicago-request at python.org wrote:

> From: Garrett Smith <g at rre.tt>
> To: Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: [Chicago] Python Gangsta Rap
> Message-ID:
> 	<CACU=p6u1kBLC_B-h7NR2rnjD2bAg8CW-427FhEK9T23C=Oi1wg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Wish I could have made it tonight. Here's the official link to a
> lightning talk I would have otherwise given.
> 
> http://shardingdevnull.com/python-gangsta-rap
> 
> Garrett

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From maniabill at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 17 15:26:22 2011
From: maniabill at yahoo.com (Bill Mania)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 08:26:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python development on Android 3.1 Honeycomb
Message-ID: <20110717132622.GA15882@bill-desktop>

I have found a tablet computer, the Toshiba Thrive, which has the
hardware specifications I want. I also want to use Python to
develop software for Android 3.1 which can use all of the
hardware components on this tablet.

Has anyone done any Python development for Android? Is Python
fully supported on the Android platform? I can't seem to find any
clear confirmation on any of the Android Developer pages.

-- 
Bill Mania
dum ni vivas, ni vivu!

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Sun Jul 17 15:33:31 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 08:33:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python development on Android 3.1 Honeycomb
In-Reply-To: <20110717132622.GA15882@bill-desktop>
References: <20110717132622.GA15882@bill-desktop>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zmEd8viFzwMsQw7qP3mdZHg44zf5RkVF_CRjOsW16TDQQ@mail.gmail.com>

Try using this http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/
its a project by google that exposes the android api to python.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:26 AM, Bill Mania <maniabill at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have found a tablet computer, the Toshiba Thrive, which has the
> hardware specifications I want. I also want to use Python to
> develop software for Android 3.1 which can use all of the
> hardware components on this tablet.
>
> Has anyone done any Python development for Android? Is Python
> fully supported on the Android platform? I can't seem to find any
> clear confirmation on any of the Android Developer pages.
>
> --
> Bill Mania
> dum ni vivas, ni vivu!
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From brianhray at gmail.com  Mon Jul 18 17:53:44 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 10:53:44 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Playdoh: Mozilla's Django starter kit
In-Reply-To: <CA+VOWAHzLp5A2qqj=9c8cTWEmrdLYmqtfBZxV93huPEQqKoxSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+VOWAHzLp5A2qqj=9c8cTWEmrdLYmqtfBZxV93huPEQqKoxSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38sgBb996LXYxJr4NyO9jPwqN9UB4Tojr=0fR1=nhVWojA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Kumar McMillan
<kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all.
> In my presentation last night I mentioned how each part of Playdoh is
> a standalone Django app that you can cherry pick into your website.
> Some people were asking me about those apps so here are the slides,
> which have links to each one:
> http://farmdev.com/talks/playdoh/
>
> And the full Playdoh docs are here: http://playdoh.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
>

thanks, I am using Playdoh for a new project. I got set up in about 5
minutes. so far, so good... Cheers, Brian


-- 

Brian Ray

From brianhray at gmail.com  Mon Jul 18 18:32:20 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:32:20 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Playdoh: Mozilla's Django starter kit
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38sgBb996LXYxJr4NyO9jPwqN9UB4Tojr=0fR1=nhVWojA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+VOWAHzLp5A2qqj=9c8cTWEmrdLYmqtfBZxV93huPEQqKoxSw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sgBb996LXYxJr4NyO9jPwqN9UB4Tojr=0fR1=nhVWojA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38u=dkaKAxihT13iXZtcNO_byWxB-K1KX_-YxAJiYK=sxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Kumar McMillan
> <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all.
>> In my presentation last night I mentioned how each part of Playdoh is
>> a standalone Django app that you can cherry pick into your website.
>> Some people were asking me about those apps so here are the slides,
>> which have links to each one:
>> http://farmdev.com/talks/playdoh/
>>
>> And the full Playdoh docs are here: http://playdoh.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
>>
>
> thanks, I am using Playdoh for a new project. I got set up in about 5
> minutes. so far, so good... Cheers, Brian
>

Any thoughts on Playdoh database migrations (via schematic) vs
something like "south"?



-- 

Brian Ray

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Mon Jul 18 19:04:14 2011
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:04:14 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Playdoh: Mozilla's Django starter kit
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38u=dkaKAxihT13iXZtcNO_byWxB-K1KX_-YxAJiYK=sxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+VOWAHzLp5A2qqj=9c8cTWEmrdLYmqtfBZxV93huPEQqKoxSw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sgBb996LXYxJr4NyO9jPwqN9UB4Tojr=0fR1=nhVWojA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38u=dkaKAxihT13iXZtcNO_byWxB-K1KX_-YxAJiYK=sxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+VOWAEWMJVKQp-z=zzoQx1GCsTtyeghxvm-nZabnTU0+oLp1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> thanks, I am using Playdoh for a new project. I got set up in about 5
>> minutes. so far, so good... Cheers, Brian
>>
>
> Any thoughts on Playdoh database migrations (via schematic) vs
> something like "south"?

Schematic is pretty bare bones and doesn't (yet) include rollbacks.
It just recently got support for Python scripts so you'll have to
update to use it.  As I recall we ran into some problems with South in
how it conflicted with some minor things like maybe test setup.  I
think it had some weird syncdb code but I don't remember exactly.
Anyway, it's actively developed so it's probably fixed now.  In short,
I'd suggest trying out South and see if you get stuck.  It is not a
problem to swap out schematic for South.

Kumar

From eric at intellovations.com  Tue Jul 19 21:39:13 2011
From: eric at intellovations.com (Eric Floehr)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:39:13 -0400
Subject: [Chicago] PyOhio Panelist Needed
Message-ID: <CAJzarMNoJb8YXyogqF8wJkTWAkBEL2o54GmenZwfoMOScrbH1w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I am looking for 1-2 more panelists for my panel discussion at PyOhio
on Python and Entrepreneurship.

I'm looking for folks who run their own business (consulting or
product) or have a part-time business that is making money while still
employed at a "regular" job.  Of course the product should be based on
Python, but we are inclusive and I'm open to businesses built on other
Python-like languages.

If you are or know of someone that would be interested in sharing
their experiences (no preparation for the panel is necessary), please
let me know.

The panel is scheduled for Sunday, July 31, at 2:30pm at PyOhio.

Thanks so much for your help!
Eric

From brianherman at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 02:10:48 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:10:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyOhio Panelist Needed
In-Reply-To: <CAJzarMNoJb8YXyogqF8wJkTWAkBEL2o54GmenZwfoMOScrbH1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJzarMNoJb8YXyogqF8wJkTWAkBEL2o54GmenZwfoMOScrbH1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wpeizURUo=QFpmD10eXFtnv7iVfXpFNrFdZYaQG5=wdVA@mail.gmail.com>

Carl runs his own business.
On Jul 19, 2011 3:09 PM, "Eric Floehr" <eric at intellovations.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am looking for 1-2 more panelists for my panel discussion at PyOhio
> on Python and Entrepreneurship.
>
> I'm looking for folks who run their own business (consulting or
> product) or have a part-time business that is making money while still
> employed at a "regular" job. Of course the product should be based on
> Python, but we are inclusive and I'm open to businesses built on other
> Python-like languages.
>
> If you are or know of someone that would be interested in sharing
> their experiences (no preparation for the panel is necessary), please
> let me know.
>
> The panel is scheduled for Sunday, July 31, at 2:30pm at PyOhio.
>
> Thanks so much for your help!
> Eric
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From brian.curtin at gmail.com  Thu Jul 21 15:57:23 2011
From: brian.curtin at gmail.com (Brian Curtin)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:57:23 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>

ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the Python
Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python community.

Congratulations!
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From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Thu Jul 21 16:06:12 2011
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:06:12 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACsFw0jDpSRNdg1_MYQijwWhCAjRi+j9PSyoMdT76CzLZDaHHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations Massimo!  You're a motivated guy...I'm sure you'll have a
big impact.

Chris

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com>wrote:

> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the Python
> Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python community.
>
> Congratulations!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Thu Jul 21 16:17:21 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:17:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <CACsFw0jDpSRNdg1_MYQijwWhCAjRi+j9PSyoMdT76CzLZDaHHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACsFw0jDpSRNdg1_MYQijwWhCAjRi+j9PSyoMdT76CzLZDaHHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zm33UuWC_trUvsLrc9D=iQETNnWjCYJCT=NKp7gZ0Bdmg@mail.gmail.com>

Massimo writes code and chews bubble gum and he is all out of bubblegum.

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Congratulations Massimo! ?You're a motivated guy...I'm sure you'll have a
> big impact.
> Chris
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the
>> Python Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python
>> community.
>> Congratulations!
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From brianhray at gmail.com  Thu Jul 21 16:57:00 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:57:00 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38t9bj2goCUPoVAGnbgY3-XA=E8RONe=w8EHL7Q2Jmhj1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com> wrote:
> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the Python
> Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python community.

Cheers Massimo, well deserved.


-- 

Brian Ray

From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Thu Jul 21 17:30:19 2011
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 10:30:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38t9bj2goCUPoVAGnbgY3-XA=E8RONe=w8EHL7Q2Jmhj1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38t9bj2goCUPoVAGnbgY3-XA=E8RONe=w8EHL7Q2Jmhj1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F7F211D-DF4A-4110-973A-3BA27C27CA65@cs.depaul.edu>

Thank you everybody.

This was a huge surprise for me and not sure I deserved it. Anyway, I am happy and honored. I will be happy to take advice from people on this list about what issues are dear to them and how to deal properly with this new responsibility.

Massimo

On Jul 21, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Brian Ray wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the Python
>> Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python community.
> 
> Cheers Massimo, well deserved.
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Brian Ray
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From brianherman at gmail.com  Thu Jul 21 23:22:31 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:22:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <7F7F211D-DF4A-4110-973A-3BA27C27CA65@cs.depaul.edu>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38t9bj2goCUPoVAGnbgY3-XA=E8RONe=w8EHL7Q2Jmhj1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F7F211D-DF4A-4110-973A-3BA27C27CA65@cs.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wq3Je51znE4De4O_N1cv9y=aAPuiQKiXZfDh50Mm8yNMw@mail.gmail.com>

Yay we should have a party!


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu
> wrote:

> Thank you everybody.
>
> This was a huge surprise for me and not sure I deserved it. Anyway, I am
> happy and honored. I will be happy to take advice from people on this list
> about what issues are dear to them and how to deal properly with this new
> responsibility.
>
> Massimo
>
> On Jul 21, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the
> Python
> >> Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python
> community.
> >
> > Cheers Massimo, well deserved.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Brian Ray
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From robkapteyn at gmail.com  Fri Jul 22 07:38:45 2011
From: robkapteyn at gmail.com (Rob Kapteyn)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 00:38:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wq3Je51znE4De4O_N1cv9y=aAPuiQKiXZfDh50Mm8yNMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38t9bj2goCUPoVAGnbgY3-XA=E8RONe=w8EHL7Q2Jmhj1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F7F211D-DF4A-4110-973A-3BA27C27CA65@cs.depaul.edu>
	<CAJD01wq3Je51znE4De4O_N1cv9y=aAPuiQKiXZfDh50Mm8yNMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F201B5DD-B4D9-4042-91B9-76C9B6543D0C@gmail.com>

Wow -- that's a real accomplishment, congratulations Massimo !

Now that he's officially a VIP --
Instead of a party, maybe we should have a ChiPy meeting on a day that doesn't conflict with his classes
-- and then have a party anyway !

-Rob


On Jul 21, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Brian Herman wrote:

> Yay we should have a party!
> 
> 
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
> 
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Thank you everybody.
> 
> This was a huge surprise for me and not sure I deserved it. Anyway, I am happy and honored. I will be happy to take advice from people on this list about what issues are dear to them and how to deal properly with this new responsibility.
> 
> Massimo
> 
> On Jul 21, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the Python
> >> Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python community.
> >
> > Cheers Massimo, well deserved.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Brian Ray
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From brianherman at gmail.com  Fri Jul 22 08:26:13 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 01:26:13 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <F201B5DD-B4D9-4042-91B9-76C9B6543D0C@gmail.com>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38t9bj2goCUPoVAGnbgY3-XA=E8RONe=w8EHL7Q2Jmhj1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F7F211D-DF4A-4110-973A-3BA27C27CA65@cs.depaul.edu>
	<CAJD01wq3Je51znE4De4O_N1cv9y=aAPuiQKiXZfDh50Mm8yNMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<F201B5DD-B4D9-4042-91B9-76C9B6543D0C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wqwVA7nWwaNc0LsyjMWNYkoSNgqN_OQ260ZaMyZ-49yCw@mail.gmail.com>

Where was that place where we had meetings and was a bar we should have the
party there and massimo should come too. He can have class there.
He is a professor right?
I am sure his students would love it.


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Rob Kapteyn <robkapteyn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow -- that's a real accomplishment, congratulations Massimo !
>
> Now that he's officially a VIP --
> Instead of a party, maybe we should have a ChiPy meeting on a day that
> doesn't conflict with his classes
> -- and then have a party anyway !
>
> -Rob
>
>
> On Jul 21, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Brian Herman wrote:
>
> Yay we should have a party!
>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Massimo Di Pierro <
> mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
>> Thank you everybody.
>>
>> This was a huge surprise for me and not sure I deserved it. Anyway, I am
>> happy and honored. I will be happy to take advice from people on this list
>> about what issues are dear to them and how to deal properly with this new
>> responsibility.
>>
>> Massimo
>>
>> On Jul 21, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the
>> Python
>> >> Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python
>> community.
>> >
>> > Cheers Massimo, well deserved.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Brian Ray
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From danieltpeters at gmail.com  Fri Jul 22 08:28:23 2011
From: danieltpeters at gmail.com (Daniel Peters)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 01:28:23 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <F201B5DD-B4D9-4042-91B9-76C9B6543D0C@gmail.com>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38t9bj2goCUPoVAGnbgY3-XA=E8RONe=w8EHL7Q2Jmhj1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F7F211D-DF4A-4110-973A-3BA27C27CA65@cs.depaul.edu>
	<CAJD01wq3Je51znE4De4O_N1cv9y=aAPuiQKiXZfDh50Mm8yNMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<F201B5DD-B4D9-4042-91B9-76C9B6543D0C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHzLg+Zbu2vD4F9dTezUtPgw5ACC5GqoGKKW+bkYLZY+70QnXQ@mail.gmail.com>

If talk of the party continues, a bottle of tequila, a bag of limes and a
cambro of crushed ice might make its way to the next meeting.
Congratulations Massimo, thats really cool.

On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Rob Kapteyn <robkapteyn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow -- that's a real accomplishment, congratulations Massimo !
>
> Now that he's officially a VIP --
> Instead of a party, maybe we should have a ChiPy meeting on a day that
> doesn't conflict with his classes
> -- and then have a party anyway !
>
> -Rob
>
>
> On Jul 21, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Brian Herman wrote:
>
> Yay we should have a party!
>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Massimo Di Pierro <
> mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
>> Thank you everybody.
>>
>> This was a huge surprise for me and not sure I deserved it. Anyway, I am
>> happy and honored. I will be happy to take advice from people on this list
>> about what issues are dear to them and how to deal properly with this new
>> responsibility.
>>
>> Massimo
>>
>> On Jul 21, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the
>> Python
>> >> Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python
>> community.
>> >
>> > Cheers Massimo, well deserved.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Brian Ray
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Fri Jul 22 08:31:19 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 01:31:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <CAHzLg+Zbu2vD4F9dTezUtPgw5ACC5GqoGKKW+bkYLZY+70QnXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38t9bj2goCUPoVAGnbgY3-XA=E8RONe=w8EHL7Q2Jmhj1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F7F211D-DF4A-4110-973A-3BA27C27CA65@cs.depaul.edu>
	<CAJD01wq3Je51znE4De4O_N1cv9y=aAPuiQKiXZfDh50Mm8yNMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<F201B5DD-B4D9-4042-91B9-76C9B6543D0C@gmail.com>
	<CAHzLg+Zbu2vD4F9dTezUtPgw5ACC5GqoGKKW+bkYLZY+70QnXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wpSmusKQUKxter3+Q=Hiyr7jqWcpOPDPJLMepyOcFLSYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wait it is Massimos party shouldn't we ask massimo where the party should
be?


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 1:28 AM, Daniel Peters <danieltpeters at gmail.com>wrote:

> If talk of the party continues, a bottle of tequila, a bag of limes and a
> cambro of crushed ice might make its way to the next meeting.
> Congratulations Massimo, thats really cool.
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Rob Kapteyn <robkapteyn at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Wow -- that's a real accomplishment, congratulations Massimo !
>>
>> Now that he's officially a VIP --
>> Instead of a party, maybe we should have a ChiPy meeting on a day that
>> doesn't conflict with his classes
>> -- and then have a party anyway !
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>> On Jul 21, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Brian Herman wrote:
>>
>> Yay we should have a party!
>>
>>
>> Arigatou gozaimasu,
>> (Thank you very much)
>> Brian Herman
>>
>> brianjherman.com
>> brianherman at acm.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Massimo Di Pierro <
>> mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you everybody.
>>>
>>> This was a huge surprise for me and not sure I deserved it. Anyway, I am
>>> happy and honored. I will be happy to take advice from people on this list
>>> about what issues are dear to them and how to deal properly with this new
>>> responsibility.
>>>
>>> Massimo
>>>
>>> On Jul 21, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the
>>> Python
>>> >> Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python
>>> community.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers Massimo, well deserved.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> >
>>> > Brian Ray
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Jul 22 09:29:42 2011
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:29:42 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wq3Je51znE4De4O_N1cv9y=aAPuiQKiXZfDh50Mm8yNMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38t9bj2goCUPoVAGnbgY3-XA=E8RONe=w8EHL7Q2Jmhj1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F7F211D-DF4A-4110-973A-3BA27C27CA65@cs.depaul.edu>
	<CAJD01wq3Je51znE4De4O_N1cv9y=aAPuiQKiXZfDh50Mm8yNMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6B47CD23-C1E1-48A9-A206-9A140A268CF5@cs.depaul.edu>

I will be out of town for a while but I like the idea of a party. How about in early September. I will take care of the beer. ;-)

On Jul 21, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Brian Herman wrote:

> Yay we should have a party!
> 
> 
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
> 
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Thank you everybody.
> 
> This was a huge surprise for me and not sure I deserved it. Anyway, I am happy and honored. I will be happy to take advice from people on this list about what issues are dear to them and how to deal properly with this new responsibility.
> 
> Massimo
> 
> On Jul 21, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the Python
> >> Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python community.
> >
> > Cheers Massimo, well deserved.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Brian Ray
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Jul 22 09:33:32 2011
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:33:32 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Congrats to Massimo
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wpSmusKQUKxter3+Q=Hiyr7jqWcpOPDPJLMepyOcFLSYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+XWwq-q38jRTakbKunVifo4DnVWU-c3EudHW1goxY+zXRXbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38t9bj2goCUPoVAGnbgY3-XA=E8RONe=w8EHL7Q2Jmhj1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F7F211D-DF4A-4110-973A-3BA27C27CA65@cs.depaul.edu>
	<CAJD01wq3Je51znE4De4O_N1cv9y=aAPuiQKiXZfDh50Mm8yNMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<F201B5DD-B4D9-4042-91B9-76C9B6543D0C@gmail.com>
	<CAHzLg+Zbu2vD4F9dTezUtPgw5ACC5GqoGKKW+bkYLZY+70QnXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wpSmusKQUKxter3+Q=Hiyr7jqWcpOPDPJLMepyOcFLSYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BA8BB1E-2750-41DA-B990-B7BACF3A8A67@cs.depaul.edu>

LOL.
I have no preference. I could host it at DePaul if necessary but we have strange rules and may be difficult to book something before October. I will be back in US on August 24 and look forward to the party and/or next chipy meeting.

massimo


On Jul 22, 2011, at 1:31 AM, Brian Herman wrote:

> Wait it is Massimos party shouldn't we ask massimo where the party should be?
> 
> 
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
> 
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 1:28 AM, Daniel Peters <danieltpeters at gmail.com> wrote:
> If talk of the party continues, a bottle of tequila, a bag of limes and a cambro of crushed ice might make its way to the next meeting. Congratulations Massimo, thats really cool. 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Rob Kapteyn <robkapteyn at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow -- that's a real accomplishment, congratulations Massimo !
> 
> Now that he's officially a VIP --
> Instead of a party, maybe we should have a ChiPy meeting on a day that doesn't conflict with his classes
> -- and then have a party anyway !
> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
> On Jul 21, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Brian Herman wrote:
> 
>> Yay we should have a party!
>> 
>> 
>> Arigatou gozaimasu,
>> (Thank you very much)
>> Brian Herman
>> 
>> brianjherman.com
>> brianherman at acm.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> Thank you everybody.
>> 
>> This was a huge surprise for me and not sure I deserved it. Anyway, I am happy and honored. I will be happy to take advice from people on this list about what issues are dear to them and how to deal properly with this new responsibility.
>> 
>> Massimo
>> 
>> On Jul 21, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
>> 
>> > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> ChiPy's own Massimo DiPierro was recently elected as a member of the Python
>> >> Software Foundation for all of his contributions to the Python community.
>> >
>> > Cheers Massimo, well deserved.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Brian Ray
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From tal.liron at threecrickets.com  Sat Jul 23 02:21:15 2011
From: tal.liron at threecrickets.com (Tal Liron)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:21:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [ANN] Prudence 1.1: A RESTful web development platform
 for Python (and Scripturian, and Savory)
Message-ID: <4E2A13FB.7020907@threecrickets.com>

Hi ChiPy!


Thanks again for letting me present bits of these projects to you in the 
past. If there's any interest in any of this, I'd be more than happy to 
present specific topics. For example: template freaks have asked me how 
to integrate Python templating engines into Prudence. Not a problem: I 
can show you how easy it is to plug Mako in, and gain full use of 
Prudence's powerful caching and RESTful encapsulation.


Also: beer. Beer has nothing in particular to do with this announcement, 
but it definitely does not detract from it.


*PRUDENCE 1.1*


I'm very happy to announce the official release of Prudence 1.1.


http://threecrickets.com/prudence/

Prudence is a container and platform for scalable RESTful web 
applications and services based on the JVM. It features powerful HTML 
generation, letting you insert Python scriptlets into web pages, or 
write RESTful resources in plain Python. Web pages are cached via a very 
flexible system integrated into the conditional HTTP phase, supporting 
memcached, MongoDB, SQL and Hazelcast backends.

Deployment-by-zip is quick and easy. Logging is preconfigured and 
robust. Best of all, Prudence comes with a detailed 100-page 
Creative-Common-licensed manual, loaded with good advice for building 
scalable web applications and REST, quite useful for non-Prudence users, 
too.

Release 1.1 is "cloud ready": Prudence instances can automatically 
discover each other and form a cluster, where state can be shared, and 
asynchronous tasks can be launched anywhere in the cluster. A cloud of 
100 nodes has been tested on EC2!

Enjoy, create, contribute! And join the Prudence Community group for 
special magical powers.

http://groups.google.com/group/prudence-community

*SCRIPTURIAN*

This related project may be of special interest Python developers, who 
might not have a use for Prudence as a whole.

Scripturian is a robust alternative to JSR-223 (Java Scripting), 
providing a very clear threading model and error model where JSR-223 
defines none. Additionally, Scripturian takes care of 
text-with-scriptlet situations, parsing and combining as necessary. 
Scripturian makes it especially easy to integrate JVM languages into 
projects that require clear threading models for high-concurrency 
situations.

Scripturian currently supports Jython, Jepp, JRuby, Groovy, Clojure, 
Rhino and Quercus.

http://threecrickets.com/scripturian/

*THE SAVORY FRAMEWORK = PRUDENCE + MONGODB*

Prudence also has a JavaScript flavor, and for it we've released an 
especially comprehensive MongoDB-centric development framework, 
featuring especially comprehensive Ext JS and Sencha Touch integration. 
The list of features is kinda mind-boggling, so I'll let you browse and 
read if you're interested:

http://threecrickets.com/savory/

Why is it based on Prudence's "Savory JavaScript" flavor and not the 
"Succulent Python" flavor? Good question! We need YOU, NOW to port 
Savory into Succulent.

The good news is that Prudence lets you run all flavors together, so 
it's quite possible (and even recommended) to use Python code with the 
Savory JavaScript code in the same project. Use the best language for 
the task at hand.

Love,
Tal


From brianherman at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 08:51:43 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 01:51:43 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
Message-ID: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Do you guys think it would be a good idea to make a kickstarter fund to
pay David Beasley to get rid of the global interpreter lock?



Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org
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From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 08:59:58 2011
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 01:59:58 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+VOWAEUEpqXAaWzzGUS=+q2trsw_EUOweYzRWHWdKYvj4RS+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 1:51 AM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you guys think it would be a good idea to make a kickstarter fund to
> pay?David?Beasley?to get rid of the global interpreter lock?

YES.

However, kickstarter only funds art projects (I think?). We have to
pitch it as art!

>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From brian.curtin at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 08:54:27 2011
From: brian.curtin at gmail.com (Brian Curtin)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 01:54:27 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 23, 2011 1:52 AM, "Brian Herman" <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do you guys think it would be a good idea to make a kickstarter fund to
pay David Beasley to get rid of the global interpreter lock?

No.
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From alex.gaynor at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 09:07:40 2011
From: alex.gaynor at gmail.com (Alex Gaynor)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 00:07:40 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> On Jul 23, 2011 1:52 AM, "Brian Herman" <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Do you guys think it would be a good idea to make a kickstarter fund to
> pay David Beasley to get rid of the global interpreter lock?
>
> No.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
Likewise, no.  For the simple reasons that a) I don't think Dave has a plan,
and b) I don't think anyone will ever come up with a plan that satisfies all
the necessary constraints for CPython (single threaded performance,
C-extension compatibility, true free threading, API compatibility).

However, I do know someone with a plan to kill the GIL, Armin Rigo:
http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2011/06/global-interpreter-lock-or-how-to-kill.html
and
it's very likely that he/we (the PyPy guys) will be posting some sort of
crowd-funded proposal for his work on this, since ChiPy seems to be
interested I'll try to follow up as there's more information.

Alex

-- 
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
"The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 09:31:37 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 02:31:37 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wpb5hZbC2R4QQ0cEUCvU_TEHhLpF6F4phAS7+9oFGpgcg@mail.gmail.com>

Kickstarter funds other projects other than art.


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:07 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2011 1:52 AM, "Brian Herman" <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Do you guys think it would be a good idea to make a kickstarter fund to
>> pay David Beasley to get rid of the global interpreter lock?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
> Likewise, no.  For the simple reasons that a) I don't think Dave has a
> plan, and b) I don't think anyone will ever come up with a plan that
> satisfies all the necessary constraints for CPython (single threaded
> performance, C-extension compatibility, true free threading, API
> compatibility).
>
> However, I do know someone with a plan to kill the GIL, Armin Rigo:
> http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2011/06/global-interpreter-lock-or-how-to-kill.html and
> it's very likely that he/we (the PyPy guys) will be posting some sort of
> crowd-funded proposal for his work on this, since ChiPy seems to be
> interested I'll try to follow up as there's more information.
>
> Alex
>
> --
> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
> say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
> "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From d-beazley at sbcglobal.net  Sat Jul 23 13:41:13 2011
From: d-beazley at sbcglobal.net (David Beazley)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 06:41:13 -0500
Subject: [Chicago]  Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
Message-ID: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>

I'd just like to say that if I had any clue how to eliminate the GIL short of rewriting python from scratch, I would have told people about it already.  Besides, my main interest is simply to have a sane GIL, which although not ideal, is better than having a broken GIL.

If you must know,  the mere presence of the GIL doesn't bother me too much though.

- Dave


From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 14:13:30 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 07:13:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
References: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1znX9hCZ8FPJDmEKy5OP5Z7JGU2AZWXUiNOdckR4heq=Vw@mail.gmail.com>

I think its a good idea to do this. There are enough python users to fund it.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 6:41 AM, David Beazley <d-beazley at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I'd just like to say that if I had any clue how to eliminate the GIL short of rewriting python from scratch, I would have told people about it already. ?Besides, my main interest is simply to have a sane GIL, which although not ideal, is better than having a broken GIL.
>
> If you must know, ?the mere presence of the GIL doesn't bother me too much though.
>
> - Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From maney at two14.net  Sat Jul 23 17:17:10 2011
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 10:17:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Playdoh: Mozilla's Django starter kit
In-Reply-To: <CA+VOWAEWMJVKQp-z=zzoQx1GCsTtyeghxvm-nZabnTU0+oLp1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+VOWAHzLp5A2qqj=9c8cTWEmrdLYmqtfBZxV93huPEQqKoxSw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sgBb996LXYxJr4NyO9jPwqN9UB4Tojr=0fR1=nhVWojA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38u=dkaKAxihT13iXZtcNO_byWxB-K1KX_-YxAJiYK=sxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAEWMJVKQp-z=zzoQx1GCsTtyeghxvm-nZabnTU0+oLp1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110723151710.GA32160@furrr.two14.net>

On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 12:04:14PM -0500, Kumar McMillan wrote:
> Schematic is pretty bare bones and doesn't (yet) include rollbacks.

Bare indeed.  This takes me back to the earliest discussions about
schema migrations: you write the migrations by hand (and it's all
really down to SQL despite the recently commited support for other
script types, since they can't in general assume that Django's ORM
knows what the current state of the schema is).  All it's really doing
is running the migrations and recording a highwater mark so that it has
a notion about which have already been applied.  Unfortunately, that's
a single project (database, actually) wide highwater, so it's difficult
to see how this could work for both your own apps as well as some third
party application or any other mixed/shared use.

> As I recall we ran into some problems with South in how it conflicted
> with some minor things like maybe test setup.  I think it had some

Yet another example of the drawbacks of the test fetish.  :-)  And,
yes, I believe there have been changes that address some problems in
this vein recently, but I expect you'd have to pull the working tree
rather than a packaged release to get them.

> weird syncdb code but I don't remember exactly.  Anyway, it's
> actively developed so it's probably fixed now.  In short, I'd suggest
> trying out South and see if you get stuck.  It is not a problem to
> swap out schematic for South.

Yeah, and feel free to stop by #django-south on freenode.  It's heavily
lurked and tends to allow that "oh!  now that I've thought about how to
explain it I think I see..." reaction time to develop, but if you're
patient we'll try to help.  (I have no connection with South except for
being grateful it exists, and hanging out in the channel to pay forward
for help I got a while ago.)

-- 
You can monkeypatch code in Python pretty easily, but we look down on it
enough that we call it "monkeypatching". In Ruby they call it "opening a
class" and think it's a cool feature.  -- Ian Bicking


From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 19:07:50 2011
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 12:07:50 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:07 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
> However, I do know someone with a plan to kill the GIL, Armin
> Rigo:?http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2011/06/global-interpreter-lock-or-how-to-kill.html?and
> it's very likely that he/we (the PyPy guys) will be posting some sort of
> crowd-funded proposal for his work on this, since ChiPy seems to be
> interested I'll try to follow up as there's more information.

I think the Python community would raise a lot of money for this.
Even though a lot of people won't benefit directly from GIL removal
they are *convinced* that they will (emotional reasons).


> Alex
>
> --
> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
> say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
> "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From brianhray at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 19:19:15 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 12:19:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
References: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <CANKg38t+oGF7zh8z0sKpuZk13-PKQWHaYcA4pFHeuuqoqPhbHA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 6:41 AM, David Beazley <d-beazley at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> If you must know, ?the mere presence of the GIL doesn't bother me too much though.


I do not see why we could not: stick with the GIL, make some
improvements to it, and suggest that software engineers needing super
high performance just create multi processes that message to one
another as the best ever architecture. problem solved!

BTW, I have no problems with the simple reference counting idea that
cPython started with. From a design decision I am fine with it. I am
not sure it was implemented correctly but that is another story.

-- Brian

From alex.gaynor at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 19:37:03 2011
From: alex.gaynor at gmail.com (Alex Gaynor)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 10:37:03 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38t+oGF7zh8z0sKpuZk13-PKQWHaYcA4pFHeuuqoqPhbHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
	<CANKg38t+oGF7zh8z0sKpuZk13-PKQWHaYcA4pFHeuuqoqPhbHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRnB2X7V5OhJzRKb_CaZCBEaej1shKXKg24Vj8CizU7dpeyMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 6:41 AM, David Beazley <d-beazley at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > If you must know,  the mere presence of the GIL doesn't bother me too
> much though.
>
>
> I do not see why we could not: stick with the GIL, make some
> improvements to it, and suggest that software engineers needing super
> high performance just create multi processes that message to one
> another as the best ever architecture. problem solved!
>
> BTW, I have no problems with the simple reference counting idea that
> cPython started with. From a design decision I am fine with it. I am
> not sure it was implemented correctly but that is another story.
>
> -- Brian
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

"high performance just create multi processes that message" very rarely have
I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.

Alex

-- 
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
"The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
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From brianhray at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 19:54:29 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 12:54:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAFRnB2X7V5OhJzRKb_CaZCBEaej1shKXKg24Vj8CizU7dpeyMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
	<CANKg38t+oGF7zh8z0sKpuZk13-PKQWHaYcA4pFHeuuqoqPhbHA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X7V5OhJzRKb_CaZCBEaej1shKXKg24Vj8CizU7dpeyMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38sNjA3bWvkyygvQVRqdtOjt0CEajAfd_nNd+wT6P052wA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very rarely have
> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
> Alex

Can you elaborate?  Taking full advantage of multiple processors could
increase performance, no?  I believe IPC was Guido's suggestion.

IPC of some sort has already been pretty well established approach.

-- 

Brian Ray

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 19:58:29 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 12:58:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38sNjA3bWvkyygvQVRqdtOjt0CEajAfd_nNd+wT6P052wA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
	<CANKg38t+oGF7zh8z0sKpuZk13-PKQWHaYcA4pFHeuuqoqPhbHA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X7V5OhJzRKb_CaZCBEaej1shKXKg24Vj8CizU7dpeyMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sNjA3bWvkyygvQVRqdtOjt0CEajAfd_nNd+wT6P052wA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zk-cuQxbkkrfZargDCt2Xcin7wD+N7cYg2-Uahg9k=+dg@mail.gmail.com>

How about making all datastructures immutable and performing copies of
each data structure instead of mutation? Its similar to what clojure
and erlang does.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very rarely have
>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>> Alex
>
> Can you elaborate? ?Taking full advantage of multiple processors could
> increase performance, no? ?I believe IPC was Guido's suggestion.
>
> IPC of some sort has already been pretty well established approach.
>
> --
>
> Brian Ray
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 19:59:38 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 12:59:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zk-cuQxbkkrfZargDCt2Xcin7wD+N7cYg2-Uahg9k=+dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
	<CANKg38t+oGF7zh8z0sKpuZk13-PKQWHaYcA4pFHeuuqoqPhbHA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X7V5OhJzRKb_CaZCBEaej1shKXKg24Vj8CizU7dpeyMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sNjA3bWvkyygvQVRqdtOjt0CEajAfd_nNd+wT6P052wA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-cuQxbkkrfZargDCt2Xcin7wD+N7cYg2-Uahg9k=+dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=ewgRDhUoUYV9UHt74xbOQJ1GT=ziMRhbGi9Gab9JN6g@mail.gmail.com>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_transactional_memory

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Joshua Herman
<zitterbewegung at gmail.com> wrote:
> How about making all datastructures immutable and performing copies of
> each data structure instead of mutation? Its similar to what clojure
> and erlang does.
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very rarely have
>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>> Alex
>>
>> Can you elaborate? ?Taking full advantage of multiple processors could
>> increase performance, no? ?I believe IPC was Guido's suggestion.
>>
>> IPC of some sort has already been pretty well established approach.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian Ray
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 20:09:42 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 13:09:42 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zk-cuQxbkkrfZargDCt2Xcin7wD+N7cYg2-Uahg9k=+dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
	<CANKg38t+oGF7zh8z0sKpuZk13-PKQWHaYcA4pFHeuuqoqPhbHA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X7V5OhJzRKb_CaZCBEaej1shKXKg24Vj8CizU7dpeyMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sNjA3bWvkyygvQVRqdtOjt0CEajAfd_nNd+wT6P052wA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-cuQxbkkrfZargDCt2Xcin7wD+N7cYg2-Uahg9k=+dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=1-oRfdjoQ34xub-rc2UFYz7reXN+CNvZ+uunxfH7jbg@mail.gmail.com>

Actually erlang does the mailbox / actor model...

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Joshua Herman
<zitterbewegung at gmail.com> wrote:
> How about making all datastructures immutable and performing copies of
> each data structure instead of mutation? Its similar to what clojure
> and erlang does.
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very rarely have
>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>> Alex
>>
>> Can you elaborate? ?Taking full advantage of multiple processors could
>> increase performance, no? ?I believe IPC was Guido's suggestion.
>>
>> IPC of some sort has already been pretty well established approach.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian Ray
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>

From alex.gaynor at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 20:11:33 2011
From: alex.gaynor at gmail.com (Alex Gaynor)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:11:33 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zk-cuQxbkkrfZargDCt2Xcin7wD+N7cYg2-Uahg9k=+dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
	<CANKg38t+oGF7zh8z0sKpuZk13-PKQWHaYcA4pFHeuuqoqPhbHA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X7V5OhJzRKb_CaZCBEaej1shKXKg24Vj8CizU7dpeyMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sNjA3bWvkyygvQVRqdtOjt0CEajAfd_nNd+wT6P052wA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-cuQxbkkrfZargDCt2Xcin7wD+N7cYg2-Uahg9k=+dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRnB2XGY2GN6A-pXgkOS4BMO5q54adVtt1VZk7caTo_xoHq9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>wrote:

> How about making all datastructures immutable and performing copies of
> each data structure instead of mutation? Its similar to what clojure
> and erlang does.
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very rarely
> have
> >> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
> >> Alex
> >
> > Can you elaborate?  Taking full advantage of multiple processors could
> > increase performance, no?  I believe IPC was Guido's suggestion.
> >
> > IPC of some sort has already been pretty well established approach.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Brian Ray
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

Making all datasructures immutable violates the constraint that existing
APIs can't be changed.  IPC carries a high overhead because a) you have to
serialize and deserialize all data structures, b) you can't really use it
with large datasets as you'll have multiple copies in each process.

Alex

-- 
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
"The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 20:20:07 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 13:20:07 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAFRnB2XGY2GN6A-pXgkOS4BMO5q54adVtt1VZk7caTo_xoHq9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DC7E09C9-2FDC-498A-AA7E-9F4D93FEA88E@sbcglobal.net>
	<CANKg38t+oGF7zh8z0sKpuZk13-PKQWHaYcA4pFHeuuqoqPhbHA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X7V5OhJzRKb_CaZCBEaej1shKXKg24Vj8CizU7dpeyMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sNjA3bWvkyygvQVRqdtOjt0CEajAfd_nNd+wT6P052wA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-cuQxbkkrfZargDCt2Xcin7wD+N7cYg2-Uahg9k=+dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2XGY2GN6A-pXgkOS4BMO5q54adVtt1VZk7caTo_xoHq9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zkPz5thoJ3CgP0+FcenASqTndt_WNyOQdeK-5NXH5y8vg@mail.gmail.com>

Could we allow for a system very similar to this? Allow mutability but
you have to write wrapper code around the mutation?
http://clojure.org/refs

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> How about making all datastructures immutable and performing copies of
>> each data structure instead of mutation? Its similar to what clojure
>> and erlang does.
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very rarely
>> >> have
>> >> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>> >> Alex
>> >
>> > Can you elaborate? ?Taking full advantage of multiple processors could
>> > increase performance, no? ?I believe IPC was Guido's suggestion.
>> >
>> > IPC of some sort has already been pretty well established approach.
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Brian Ray
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> Making all datasructures immutable violates the constraint that existing
> APIs can't be changed. ?IPC carries a high overhead because a) you have to
> serialize and deserialize all data structures, b) you can't really use it
> with large datasets as you'll have multiple copies in each process.
> Alex
>
> --
> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
> say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
> "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From brianherman at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 23:48:52 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 16:48:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone want to be in the kickstarter video?


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Kumar McMillan
<kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:07 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > However, I do know someone with a plan to kill the GIL, Armin
> > Rigo:
> http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2011/06/global-interpreter-lock-or-how-to-kill.html
>  and
> > it's very likely that he/we (the PyPy guys) will be posting some sort of
> > crowd-funded proposal for his work on this, since ChiPy seems to be
> > interested I'll try to follow up as there's more information.
>
> I think the Python community would raise a lot of money for this.
> Even though a lot of people won't benefit directly from GIL removal
> they are *convinced* that they will (emotional reasons).
>
>
> > Alex
> >
> > --
> > "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right
> to
> > say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
> > "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Sat Jul 23 23:49:23 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 16:49:23 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>

We dont have to give it to beasely it can be that pypy guy we can just give
him a bunch of cash.


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:

> Anyone want to be in the kickstarter video?
>
>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Kumar McMillan <kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:07 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > However, I do know someone with a plan to kill the GIL, Armin
>> > Rigo:
>> http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2011/06/global-interpreter-lock-or-how-to-kill.html
>>  and
>> > it's very likely that he/we (the PyPy guys) will be posting some sort of
>> > crowd-funded proposal for his work on this, since ChiPy seems to be
>> > interested I'll try to follow up as there's more information.
>>
>> I think the Python community would raise a lot of money for this.
>> Even though a lot of people won't benefit directly from GIL removal
>> they are *convinced* that they will (emotional reasons).
>>
>>
>> > Alex
>> >
>> > --
>> > "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right
>> to
>> > say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
>> > "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 00:02:03 2011
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 15:02:03 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote

> Anyone want to be in the kickstarter video?



Some people (including some core players) think we'll be mostly using PyPy
Python by 2050, with older CPython engines mainly for legacy applications
(which may last for millennia).

Science fiction I realize.

Comrade Kirby
Visiting Lurker
Portland Python User Group

PS:

Hope to see some of you at OSCON.

I'm toting the PSF totem again (PSF snake).

@ GOSCON:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/5126599788/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/5125995737/in/photostream/

@ Djangocon:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/4964261107/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/4964487050/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/4963867287/in/photostream/

If you're staffing a booth and want to borrow the Python totem for photo
ops,
contact @psf_snake on Twitter
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 00:05:26 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 17:05:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>

Way to hijack my thread jerk.


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 5:02 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com>wrote
>
> > Anyone want to be in the kickstarter video?
>
>
>
> Some people (including some core players) think we'll be mostly using PyPy
> Python by 2050, with older CPython engines mainly for legacy applications
> (which may last for millennia).
>
> Science fiction I realize.
>
> Comrade Kirby
> Visiting Lurker
> Portland Python User Group
>
> PS:
>
> Hope to see some of you at OSCON.
>
> I'm toting the PSF totem again (PSF snake).
>
> @ GOSCON:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/5126599788/in/photostream/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/5125995737/in/photostream/
>
> @ Djangocon:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/4964261107/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/4964487050/in/photostream/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/4963867287/in/photostream/
>
> If you're staffing a booth and want to borrow the Python totem for photo
> ops,
> contact @psf_snake on Twitter
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From dxb251 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 23 20:40:11 2011
From: dxb251 at yahoo.com (David Beazley)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 13:40:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
Message-ID: <91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>

> 
> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very rarely have
> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
> 
> Alex
> 

Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement that ignorant.   Go hang out with some people doing Python and supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find that almost significant application is based on message passing (e.g., MPI).   This is because message passing has proven itself to be about the only sane way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of thousands of CPU cores.

I speak from some experience as I was writing such software for large Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first discovered Python back in 1996.   As early as 1995, our group had done performance experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't scale or perform as well as message passing even on machines with as few as 4 CPUs.   This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no Python or GIL).

That said, in order to code with message passing, you still need to know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use it. 

Cheers,
Dave









From jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 04:47:01 2011
From: jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com (Jeremy McMillan)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 21:47:01 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
References: <CAJgaE5R9vTokQYJPjFMB0wRvSyC+hEuPo9VZRyxkLTivLS48cQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C42FE6AE-5A91-4CC4-BB16-C0C5F4E5FACD@me.com>

6 years ago I put together a Plone for ChicagoFairTrade.org under Nancy Jones. It was a good learning experience, and it really helped legitimize the fledgling organization. I was thinking of doing another site like that, sort of as a Django portfolio piece. I'd like to propose taking this on as a Chipy mentoring program project.

Maybe "Project Mayhem?"

I may try to do this myself, but this is work for any of Santa's helpers in July, so why not make it a Stone Soup type production? 

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Nancy Jones <njones at chicagofairtrade.org>
> Subject: website needed for social enterprise
> Date: July 21, 2011 5:16:02 PM CDT
> To: Jeremy McMillan <aphor at me.com>, Fey <fey at pureedenspaproducts.com>
> 
> Hi Jeremy,
> I'd like to introduce you to Fey Cruz who is the person I mentioned who is reviving the social enterprise, now named Pure Eden Spa Products.  They have just been up and running, reconnecting with old customers, but will really need a website by October to be able to take advantage of the holiday business.  I'm attaching a brief description of the project for you to pass around to find some volunteers.  Fey is available to talk over what they need on their site.  Any help would be appreciated!
> Nancy
>  
> Website design needed for new social enterprise: Pure Eden Spa Products
>  
> A ten year old social enterprise, The Enterprising Kitchen (made soaps and creams which provided work training for women) closed in December - crunched by debt.  Now a couple of those women are relaunching the project with the same mission and products, new name Pure Eden Spa Products.  They are a member of Chicago Fair Trade (we have a couple social enterprises as members)   They need a website and don't have the funds for this now but of course they won't move far with their business without one.  Essentially, they'd need an e-commerce site.  They are reviving their old customer base but now all orders are via phone and sending email to part time staff.  They have a domain...with a page that says their site is coming soon.  Questions? Contact fey at pureedenspaproducts.com
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nancy Jones
> Chicago Fair Trade
> 637 S. Dearborn 3rd fl
> Chicago, IL. 60605
> 312-212-1760
> www.chicagofairtrade.org
> 

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From jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 05:39:27 2011
From: jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com (Jeremy McMillan)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 22:39:27 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6733.1311445250.1163.chicago@python.org>
References: <mailman.6733.1311445250.1163.chicago@python.org>
Message-ID: <B784748A-B986-4A09-A051-076779C06389@me.com>

+1 IPC

For reference, there is the DragonflyBSD project, and Matt Dillon has done not only some fine concurrency design work, but he's also written some pretty good documentation around that design.

It only has to work better than multiprocessing, and you should be thinking about generators and coroutines for concurrency anyways, so why not just turn mutables' get/set operations into something similar?

On Sat, 23 Jul 2011 12:54 PM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:

> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 12:54:29 -0500
> From: Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
> Message-ID:
> 	<CANKg38sNjA3bWvkyygvQVRqdtOjt0CEajAfd_nNd+wT6P052wA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very rarely have
>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>> Alex
> 
> Can you elaborate?  Taking full advantage of multiple processors could
> increase performance, no?  I believe IPC was Guido's suggestion.
> 
> IPC of some sort has already been pretty well established approach.

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From emperorcezar at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 18:23:34 2011
From: emperorcezar at gmail.com (Adam Jenkins)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:23:34 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, David Beazley <dxb251 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement that ignorant.

This statement is rude, inappropriate, and a personal attack. There
are many other ways you could have said it. Including, "You may find
that", etc. This is a technical list, not and excuse to be rude to
others because of their opinions.

I say this without taking into account the technical merit of either
of your opinions.

From shekay at pobox.com  Sun Jul 24 18:50:24 2011
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:50:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_rYpg9azNKp+m0boHRyxP5+xYH3=CqaC6cSmSTzA_vZw3A@mail.gmail.com>

I don't want kirby to be discouraged from posting.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> Way to hijack my thread jerk.
>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 5:02 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com>
>> wrote
>>
>> > Anyone want to be in the kickstarter video?
>>
>>
>>
>> Some people (including some core players) think we'll be mostly using PyPy
>> Python by 2050, with older CPython engines mainly for legacy applications
>> (which may last for millennia).
>>
>> Science fiction I realize.
>>
>> Comrade Kirby
>> Visiting Lurker
>> Portland Python User Group
>>
>> PS:
>>
>> Hope to see some of you at OSCON.
>>
>> I'm toting the PSF totem again (PSF snake).
>>
>> @ GOSCON:
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/5126599788/in/photostream/
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/5125995737/in/photostream/
>>
>> @ Djangocon:
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/4964261107/
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/4964487050/in/photostream/
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/4963867287/in/photostream/
>>
>> If you're staffing a booth and want to borrow the Python totem for photo
>> ops,
>> contact @psf_snake on Twitter
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>



-- 
sheila

From alex.gaynor at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 18:51:25 2011
From: alex.gaynor at gmail.com (Alex Gaynor)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 09:51:25 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRnB2UbmFsiaPrg_6D__YdB2bD3Gcrex_KyV0QDcrHPBxaBRw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Adam Jenkins <emperorcezar at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, David Beazley <dxb251 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement
> that ignorant.
>
> This statement is rude, inappropriate, and a personal attack. There
> are many other ways you could have said it. Including, "You may find
> that", etc. This is a technical list, not and excuse to be rude to
> others because of their opinions.
>
> I say this without taking into account the technical merit of either
> of your opinions.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

I'll live :)  Anyway, the point I was getting is not that a message passing
system is not scalable, I've written code for Blue Gene/Ls so I know that
message passing scales.  But rather that, for problems for which
shared-memory concurrency is appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain
about the GIL), message passing will not be, because of the
marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data size/locality ones).

ALex

-- 
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
"The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 18:56:01 2011
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 09:56:01 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAHCs_rYpg9azNKp+m0boHRyxP5+xYH3=CqaC6cSmSTzA_vZw3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rYpg9azNKp+m0boHRyxP5+xYH3=CqaC6cSmSTzA_vZw3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJgG3TY3ffuxPN75U=Tw01Mif65=9gP1ZpGTai2_LHRp4fO6Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:

> I don't want kirby to be discouraged from posting.
>
>
No worries, took it as a complement.


> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Way to hijack my thread jerk.
> >
> >
> > Arigatou gozaimasu,
> > (Thank you very much)
> > Brian Herman
> >
> > brianjherman.com
> > brianherman at acm.org
>
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From toba at des.truct.org  Sun Jul 24 19:45:34 2011
From: toba at des.truct.org (Eric Stein)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:45:34 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E2C5A3E.30409@des.truct.org>

+1 acting civilly

Eric

On 07/24/2011 11:23 AM, Adam Jenkins wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, David Beazley <dxb251 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement that ignorant.
> This statement is rude, inappropriate, and a personal attack. There
> are many other ways you could have said it. Including, "You may find
> that", etc. This is a technical list, not and excuse to be rude to
> others because of their opinions.
>
> I say this without taking into account the technical merit of either
> of your opinions.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 20:09:18 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 13:09:18 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <4E2C5A3E.30409@des.truct.org>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2C5A3E.30409@des.truct.org>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zmRe5fBHPsPkRbrcH5rQh=dvRA4ELDLONNjsbZQuL9-xg@mail.gmail.com>

My brother needs to work on that sorry.

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Eric Stein <toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
> +1 acting civilly
>
> Eric
>
> On 07/24/2011 11:23 AM, Adam Jenkins wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, David Beazley <dxb251 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement that ignorant.
>> This statement is rude, inappropriate, and a personal attack. There
>> are many other ways you could have said it. Including, "You may find
>> that", etc. This is a technical list, not and excuse to be rude to
>> others because of their opinions.
>>
>> I say this without taking into account the technical merit of either
>> of your opinions.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From tal.liron at threecrickets.com  Sun Jul 24 20:58:54 2011
From: tal.liron at threecrickets.com (Tal Liron)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 13:58:54 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>

I would say that there's truth in both approaches. "Scalability" means 
different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the 
architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the architecture of 
even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.


A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain scales. For 
data structures that are mostly read, not written, synchronization is 
not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput possible in 
multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be achieved by a 
combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing between 
nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless you had a 
programming language that makes both approaches transparent) and so 
usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One 
significant challenge is to make sure that operations that MIGHT use the 
same data structures are actually performed on the same node, so that 
threading would be put to use.


So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you still need 
to know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use it."


Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right is hard. 
Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard, too. Good 
thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with experience and a 
desire to learn.


-Tal


On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:

>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very rarely have
>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>
>> Alex
>>
> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement that ignorant.   Go hang out with some people doing Python and supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find that almost significant application is based on message passing (e.g., MPI).   This is because message passing has proven itself to be about the only sane way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of thousands of CPU cores.
>
> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software for large Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first discovered Python back in 1996.   As early as 1995, our group had done performance experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't scale or perform as well as message passing even on machines with as few as 4 CPUs.   This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no Python or GIL).
>
> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still need to know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use it.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From danieltpeters at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 21:48:59 2011
From: danieltpeters at gmail.com (Daniel Peters)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 14:48:59 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <C42FE6AE-5A91-4CC4-BB16-C0C5F4E5FACD@me.com>
References: <CAJgaE5R9vTokQYJPjFMB0wRvSyC+hEuPo9VZRyxkLTivLS48cQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<C42FE6AE-5A91-4CC4-BB16-C0C5F4E5FACD@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAHzLg+afHJQjV=+JRJksghJuUCi6SsgkMgAXcQbMgtPfAJfS6Q@mail.gmail.com>

I would love to help with this in whatever way you need.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Jeremy McMillan
<jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com>wrote:

> 6 years ago I put together a Plone for ChicagoFairTrade.org under Nancy
> Jones. It was a good learning experience, and it really helped legitimize
> the fledgling organization. I was thinking of doing another site like that,
> sort of as a Django portfolio piece. I'd like to propose taking this on as a
> Chipy mentoring program project.
>
> Maybe "Project Mayhem?"
>
> I may try to do this myself, but this is work for any of Santa's helpers in
> July, so why not make it a Stone Soup type production?
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *Nancy Jones <njones at chicagofairtrade.org>
> *Subject: **website needed for social enterprise*
> *Date: *July 21, 2011 5:16:02 PM CDT
> *To: *Jeremy McMillan <aphor at me.com>, Fey <fey at pureedenspaproducts.com>
>
> Hi Jeremy,
> I'd like to introduce you to Fey Cruz who is the person I mentioned who is
> reviving the social enterprise, now named Pure Eden Spa Products.  They have
> just been up and running, reconnecting with old customers, but will really
> need a website by October to be able to take advantage of the holiday
> business.  I'm attaching a brief description of the project for you to pass
> around to find some volunteers.  Fey is available to talk over what they
> need on their site.  Any help would be appreciated!
> Nancy
>
> Website design needed for new social enterprise: Pure Eden Spa Products
>
>
> A ten year old social enterprise, The Enterprising Kitchen (made soaps and
> creams which provided work training for women) closed in December - crunched
> by debt.  Now a couple of those women are relaunching the project with the
> same mission and products, new name Pure Eden Spa Products.  They are a
> member of Chicago Fair Trade (we have a couple social enterprises as
> members)   They need a website and don't have the funds for this now but
> of course they won't move far with their business without one.  Essentially,
> they'd need an e-commerce site.  They are reviving their old customer base
> but now all orders are via phone and sending email to part time staff.  They
> have a domain...with a page that says their site is coming soon.  Questions?
> Contact fey at pureedenspaproducts.com
>
>
> --
> Nancy Jones
> Chicago Fair Trade
> 637 S. Dearborn 3rd fl
> Chicago, IL. 60605
> 312-212-1760
> www.chicagofairtrade.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From jason at hostedlabs.com  Sun Jul 24 21:56:04 2011
From: jason at hostedlabs.com (Jason Rexilius)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 14:56:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
Message-ID: <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>

I also have to quote:

"rather that, for problems for which shared-memory concurrency is 
appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about the GIL), message 
passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus 
data size/locality ones)."


I have to say this is some of the best discussion in quite a while. 
Dave's passionate response is great as well as others. I think the 
rudeness, or not, is kinda besides the point.

There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal overhead in 
situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user expectation_ or 
environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people have some 
grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a concept) in 
certain circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means 
different things.

Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci question than a 
specific python question.  The problem set applies across languages.

The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer understands the 
problem he is facing, are there both tools in the toolbox?  Is there an 
alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not the ideal solution?

BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the toolbox to deal 
with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.


On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
> I would say that there's truth in both approaches. "Scalability" means
> different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the
> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the architecture of
> even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.
>
>
> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain scales. For
> data structures that are mostly read, not written, synchronization is
> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput possible in
> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be achieved by a
> combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing between
> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless you had a
> programming language that makes both approaches transparent) and so
> usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One
> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that MIGHT use the
> same data structures are actually performed on the same node, so that
> threading would be put to use.
>
>
> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you still need
> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use it."
>
>
> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right is hard.
> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard, too. Good
> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with experience and a
> desire to learn.
>
>
> -Tal
>
>
> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>
>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very
>>> rarely have
>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement
>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing Python and
>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find that almost
>> significant application is based on message passing (e.g., MPI). This
>> is because message passing has proven itself to be about the only sane
>> way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of
>> thousands of CPU cores.
>>
>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software for large
>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first discovered
>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done performance
>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't scale or
>> perform as well as message passing even on machines with as few as 4
>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no
>> Python or GIL).
>>
>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still need to
>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 22:07:56 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 15:07:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zmeSuJpin7LHMepQgaX=NRCy2jJEAqQU+NfNDLnxg3L_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Should we create a wiki page? Like inglourous basterds to kill the GIL
or something.

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Jason Rexilius <jason at hostedlabs.com> wrote:
> I also have to quote:
>
> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory concurrency is
> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about the GIL), message
> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data
> size/locality ones)."
>
>
> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in quite a while. Dave's
> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the rudeness, or
> not, is kinda besides the point.
>
> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal overhead in
> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user expectation_ or
> environmental constraints apply. ?I think that's why people have some
> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a concept) in certain
> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means different things.
>
> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci question than a
> specific python question. ?The problem set applies across languages.
>
> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer understands the
> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the toolbox? ?Is there an
> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not the ideal solution?
>
> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the toolbox to deal with
> scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>
>
> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>
>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches. "Scalability" means
>> different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the
>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the architecture of
>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.
>>
>>
>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain scales. For
>> data structures that are mostly read, not written, synchronization is
>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput possible in
>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be achieved by a
>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing between
>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless you had a
>> programming language that makes both approaches transparent) and so
>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One
>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that MIGHT use the
>> same data structures are actually performed on the same node, so that
>> threading would be put to use.
>>
>>
>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you still need
>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use
>> it."
>>
>>
>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right is hard.
>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard, too. Good
>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with experience and a
>> desire to learn.
>>
>>
>> -Tal
>>
>>
>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>>
>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very
>>>> rarely have
>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement
>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing Python and
>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find that almost
>>> significant application is based on message passing (e.g., MPI). This
>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be about the only sane
>>> way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of
>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>>>
>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software for large
>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first discovered
>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done performance
>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't scale or
>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines with as few as 4
>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no
>>> Python or GIL).
>>>
>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still need to
>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use it.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From tal.liron at threecrickets.com  Sun Jul 24 22:46:43 2011
From: tal.liron at threecrickets.com (Tal Liron)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 15:46:43 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
Message-ID: <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>

There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the JVM, and has no 
GIL. It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If you want to 
do high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has other 
advantages and disadvantages, of course.)


I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to create new virtual 
machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X. This shows 
a huge under-estimation of what it means to create a robust, reliable, 
performative generic platform. Consider how many really reliable 
versions of the C standard library out there -- and how many decades 
they took to mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over the 
code and testing it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), 
data integrity, scoping (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the 
other huge (and exciting) challenges required to run a dynamic language 
like Python.


So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or Parrot come to 
be. Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm equally 
impressed by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual machine 
from scratch.


But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own unique 
history. Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6 years older 
than Java, and the JVM would take another decade before reaching 
prominence. JavaScript engines (running in web browsers only) at the 
time were terrible, and Perl was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in 
fact, CPython was written where there was no really good platform for 
dynamic languages. It wasn't a matter of hubris ("not invented here") to 
build a VM from scratch; there was simply no choice.


Right now, though, there are many good choices. People like Rich Hickey 
(Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in targeting the JVM, 
although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If Python were 
invented today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython," instead of 
trying to reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet, 
really, in terms of the work required).


One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects like PyPy and 
LLVM. These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet 
another dynamic VM" does not.


-Tal


On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:

> I also have to quote:
>
> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory concurrency is 
> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about the GIL), message 
> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus 
> data size/locality ones)."
>
>
> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in quite a while. 
> Dave's passionate response is great as well as others. I think the 
> rudeness, or not, is kinda besides the point.
>
> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal overhead in 
> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user expectation_ 
> or environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people have 
> some grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a concept) 
> in certain circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means 
> different things.
>
> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci question than 
> a specific python question.  The problem set applies across languages.
>
> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer understands 
> the problem he is facing, are there both tools in the toolbox?  Is 
> there an alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not the 
> ideal solution?
>
> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the toolbox to 
> deal with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>
>
> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches. "Scalability" means
>> different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the
>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the architecture of
>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.
>>
>>
>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain scales. For
>> data structures that are mostly read, not written, synchronization is
>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput possible in
>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be achieved by a
>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing between
>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless you had a
>> programming language that makes both approaches transparent) and so
>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One
>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that MIGHT use the
>> same data structures are actually performed on the same node, so that
>> threading would be put to use.
>>
>>
>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you still need
>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to 
>> use it."
>>
>>
>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right is hard.
>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard, too. Good
>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with experience and a
>> desire to learn.
>>
>>
>> -Tal
>>
>>
>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>>
>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very
>>>> rarely have
>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement
>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing Python and
>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find that almost
>>> significant application is based on message passing (e.g., MPI). This
>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be about the only sane
>>> way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of
>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>>>
>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software for large
>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first discovered
>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done performance
>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't scale or
>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines with as few as 4
>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no
>>> Python or GIL).
>>>
>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still need to
>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use it.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 23:32:13 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:32:13 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>

At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware that Jython
was that powerful I will have to play with it.

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com> wrote:
> There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the JVM, and has no GIL.
> It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If you want to do
> high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has other advantages
> and disadvantages, of course.)
>
>
> I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to create new virtual
> machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X. This shows a
> huge under-estimation of what it means to create a robust, reliable,
> performative generic platform. Consider how many really reliable versions of
> the C standard library out there -- and how many decades they took to
> mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over the code and testing
> it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data integrity, scoping
> (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other huge (and exciting)
> challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
>
>
> So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or Parrot come to be.
> Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm equally impressed
> by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual machine from scratch.
>
>
> But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own unique history.
> Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6 years older than Java,
> and the JVM would take another decade before reaching prominence. JavaScript
> engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were terrible, and Perl
> was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was written where
> there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It wasn't a matter
> of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch; there was simply
> no choice.
>
>
> Right now, though, there are many good choices. People like Rich Hickey
> (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in targeting the JVM,
> although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If Python were invented
> today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython," instead of trying to
> reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet, really, in terms
> of the work required).
>
>
> One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects like PyPy and LLVM.
> These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet another dynamic
> VM" does not.
>
>
> -Tal
>
>
> On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
>
>> I also have to quote:
>>
>> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory concurrency is
>> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about the GIL), message
>> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data
>> size/locality ones)."
>>
>>
>> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in quite a while. Dave's
>> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the rudeness, or
>> not, is kinda besides the point.
>>
>> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal overhead in
>> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user expectation_ or
>> environmental constraints apply. ?I think that's why people have some
>> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a concept) in certain
>> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means different things.
>>
>> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci question than a
>> specific python question. ?The problem set applies across languages.
>>
>> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer understands the
>> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the toolbox? ?Is there an
>> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not the ideal solution?
>>
>> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the toolbox to deal
>> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>>
>>
>> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>>
>>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches. "Scalability" means
>>> different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the
>>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the architecture of
>>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.
>>>
>>>
>>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain scales. For
>>> data structures that are mostly read, not written, synchronization is
>>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput possible in
>>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be achieved by a
>>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing between
>>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless you had a
>>> programming language that makes both approaches transparent) and so
>>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One
>>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that MIGHT use the
>>> same data structures are actually performed on the same node, so that
>>> threading would be put to use.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you still need
>>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use
>>> it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right is hard.
>>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard, too. Good
>>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with experience and a
>>> desire to learn.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Tal
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>>>
>>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very
>>>>> rarely have
>>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex
>>>>>
>>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement
>>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing Python and
>>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find that almost
>>>> significant application is based on message passing (e.g., MPI). This
>>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be about the only sane
>>>> way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of
>>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>>>>
>>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software for large
>>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first discovered
>>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done performance
>>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't scale or
>>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines with as few as 4
>>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no
>>>> Python or GIL).
>>>>
>>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still need to
>>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use it.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Chicago mailing list
>>>> Chicago at python.org
>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From tal.liron at threecrickets.com  Sun Jul 24 23:51:46 2011
From: tal.liron at threecrickets.com (Tal Liron)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:51:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E2C93F2.8090104@threecrickets.com>

Doesn't CPython work, too? And plain Ruby? And Perl? And PHP?


All of these work, pass the tests, and are deployed successfully in the 
real world. The question is what for, and how far you want to go.


Everyone here criticizing CPython and the GIL, don't forget how far and 
well you travelled with it.


On 07/24/2011 04:32 PM, Joshua Herman wrote:

> At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware that Jython
> was that powerful I will have to play with it.
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>  wrote:
>> There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the JVM, and has no GIL.
>> It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If you want to do
>> high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has other advantages
>> and disadvantages, of course.)
>>
>>
>> I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to create new virtual
>> machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X. This shows a
>> huge under-estimation of what it means to create a robust, reliable,
>> performative generic platform. Consider how many really reliable versions of
>> the C standard library out there -- and how many decades they took to
>> mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over the code and testing
>> it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data integrity, scoping
>> (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other huge (and exciting)
>> challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
>>
>>
>> So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or Parrot come to be.
>> Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm equally impressed
>> by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual machine from scratch.
>>
>>
>> But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own unique history.
>> Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6 years older than Java,
>> and the JVM would take another decade before reaching prominence. JavaScript
>> engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were terrible, and Perl
>> was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was written where
>> there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It wasn't a matter
>> of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch; there was simply
>> no choice.
>>
>>
>> Right now, though, there are many good choices. People like Rich Hickey
>> (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in targeting the JVM,
>> although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If Python were invented
>> today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython," instead of trying to
>> reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet, really, in terms
>> of the work required).
>>
>>
>> One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects like PyPy and LLVM.
>> These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet another dynamic
>> VM" does not.
>>
>>
>> -Tal
>>
>>
>> On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
>>
>>> I also have to quote:
>>>
>>> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory concurrency is
>>> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about the GIL), message
>>> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data
>>> size/locality ones)."
>>>
>>>
>>> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in quite a while. Dave's
>>> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the rudeness, or
>>> not, is kinda besides the point.
>>>
>>> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal overhead in
>>> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user expectation_ or
>>> environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people have some
>>> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a concept) in certain
>>> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means different things.
>>>
>>> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci question than a
>>> specific python question.  The problem set applies across languages.
>>>
>>> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer understands the
>>> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the toolbox?  Is there an
>>> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not the ideal solution?
>>>
>>> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the toolbox to deal
>>> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches. "Scalability" means
>>>> different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the
>>>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the architecture of
>>>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain scales. For
>>>> data structures that are mostly read, not written, synchronization is
>>>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput possible in
>>>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be achieved by a
>>>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing between
>>>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless you had a
>>>> programming language that makes both approaches transparent) and so
>>>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One
>>>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that MIGHT use the
>>>> same data structures are actually performed on the same node, so that
>>>> threading would be put to use.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you still need
>>>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use
>>>> it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right is hard.
>>>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard, too. Good
>>>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with experience and a
>>>> desire to learn.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Tal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very
>>>>>> rarely have
>>>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement
>>>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing Python and
>>>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find that almost
>>>>> significant application is based on message passing (e.g., MPI). This
>>>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be about the only sane
>>>>> way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of
>>>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>>>>>
>>>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software for large
>>>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first discovered
>>>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done performance
>>>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>>>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't scale or
>>>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines with as few as 4
>>>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no
>>>>> Python or GIL).
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still need to
>>>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Chicago mailing list
>>>>> Chicago at python.org
>>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Chicago mailing list
>>>> Chicago at python.org
>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From johnstoner2 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 01:18:59 2011
From: johnstoner2 at gmail.com (John Stoner)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:18:59 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
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Jython's not bad. I've used it a lot, and it plays well with lots of Java
APIs. Pretty slick, actually. I hear Java 1.7 has some new dynamic features
at the JVM level. I always imagined Jython would run a lot faster if it took
advantage of them. Tal, do you know if there's any work on that? Googling
around a bit I'm not seeing much.

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>wrote:

> At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware that Jython
> was that powerful I will have to play with it.
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
> wrote:
> > There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the JVM, and has no
> GIL.
> > It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If you want to do
> > high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has other
> advantages
> > and disadvantages, of course.)
> >
> >
> > I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to create new virtual
> > machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X. This shows a
> > huge under-estimation of what it means to create a robust, reliable,
> > performative generic platform. Consider how many really reliable versions
> of
> > the C standard library out there -- and how many decades they took to
> > mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over the code and
> testing
> > it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data integrity,
> scoping
> > (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other huge (and exciting)
> > challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
> >
> >
> > So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or Parrot come to
> be.
> > Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm equally
> impressed
> > by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual machine from scratch.
> >
> >
> > But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own unique
> history.
> > Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6 years older than
> Java,
> > and the JVM would take another decade before reaching prominence.
> JavaScript
> > engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were terrible, and
> Perl
> > was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was written where
> > there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It wasn't a
> matter
> > of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch; there was
> simply
> > no choice.
> >
> >
> > Right now, though, there are many good choices. People like Rich Hickey
> > (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in targeting the JVM,
> > although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If Python were
> invented
> > today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython," instead of trying to
> > reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet, really, in
> terms
> > of the work required).
> >
> >
> > One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects like PyPy and
> LLVM.
> > These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet another
> dynamic
> > VM" does not.
> >
> >
> > -Tal
> >
> >
> > On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
> >
> >> I also have to quote:
> >>
> >> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory concurrency is
> >> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about the GIL), message
> >> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus
> data
> >> size/locality ones)."
> >>
> >>
> >> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in quite a while.
> Dave's
> >> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the rudeness, or
> >> not, is kinda besides the point.
> >>
> >> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal overhead in
> >> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user expectation_ or
> >> environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people have some
> >> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a concept) in
> certain
> >> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means different
> things.
> >>
> >> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci question than a
> >> specific python question.  The problem set applies across languages.
> >>
> >> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer understands the
> >> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the toolbox?  Is there an
> >> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not the ideal solution?
> >>
> >> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the toolbox to deal
> >> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches. "Scalability" means
> >>> different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the
> >>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the architecture of
> >>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain scales.
> For
> >>> data structures that are mostly read, not written, synchronization is
> >>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput possible in
> >>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be achieved by a
> >>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing between
> >>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless you had a
> >>> programming language that makes both approaches transparent) and so
> >>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One
> >>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that MIGHT use
> the
> >>> same data structures are actually performed on the same node, so that
> >>> threading would be put to use.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you still need
> >>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use
> >>> it."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right is hard.
> >>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard, too. Good
> >>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with experience and a
> >>> desire to learn.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Tal
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very
> >>>>> rarely have
> >>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Alex
> >>>>>
> >>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement
> >>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing Python and
> >>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find that almost
> >>>> significant application is based on message passing (e.g., MPI). This
> >>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be about the only sane
> >>>> way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of
> >>>> thousands of CPU cores.
> >>>>
> >>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software for large
> >>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first discovered
> >>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done performance
> >>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
> >>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't scale or
> >>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines with as few as 4
> >>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no
> >>>> Python or GIL).
> >>>>
> >>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still need to
> >>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use
> it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Dave
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Chicago mailing list
> >>>> Chicago at python.org
> >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Chicago mailing list
> >>> Chicago at python.org
> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
blogs:
http://johnstoner.wordpress.com/
'In knowledge is power; in  wisdom, humility.'
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From alex.gaynor at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 01:24:54 2011
From: alex.gaynor at gmail.com (Alex Gaynor)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:24:54 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
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On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:18 PM, John Stoner <johnstoner2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Jython's not bad. I've used it a lot, and it plays well with lots of Java
> APIs. Pretty slick, actually. I hear Java 1.7 has some new dynamic features
> at the JVM level. I always imagined Jython would run a lot faster if it took
> advantage of them. Tal, do you know if there's any work on that? Googling
> around a bit I'm not seeing much.
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware that Jython
>> was that powerful I will have to play with it.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>> wrote:
>> > There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the JVM, and has no
>> GIL.
>> > It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If you want to do
>> > high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has other
>> advantages
>> > and disadvantages, of course.)
>> >
>> >
>> > I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to create new virtual
>> > machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X. This shows
>> a
>> > huge under-estimation of what it means to create a robust, reliable,
>> > performative generic platform. Consider how many really reliable
>> versions of
>> > the C standard library out there -- and how many decades they took to
>> > mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over the code and
>> testing
>> > it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data integrity,
>> scoping
>> > (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other huge (and
>> exciting)
>> > challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
>> >
>> >
>> > So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or Parrot come to
>> be.
>> > Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm equally
>> impressed
>> > by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual machine from
>> scratch.
>> >
>> >
>> > But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own unique
>> history.
>> > Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6 years older than
>> Java,
>> > and the JVM would take another decade before reaching prominence.
>> JavaScript
>> > engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were terrible, and
>> Perl
>> > was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was written where
>> > there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It wasn't a
>> matter
>> > of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch; there was
>> simply
>> > no choice.
>> >
>> >
>> > Right now, though, there are many good choices. People like Rich Hickey
>> > (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in targeting the JVM,
>> > although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If Python were
>> invented
>> > today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython," instead of trying to
>> > reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet, really, in
>> terms
>> > of the work required).
>> >
>> >
>> > One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects like PyPy and
>> LLVM.
>> > These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet another
>> dynamic
>> > VM" does not.
>> >
>> >
>> > -Tal
>> >
>> >
>> > On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
>> >
>> >> I also have to quote:
>> >>
>> >> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory concurrency is
>> >> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about the GIL), message
>> >> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus
>> data
>> >> size/locality ones)."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in quite a while.
>> Dave's
>> >> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the rudeness,
>> or
>> >> not, is kinda besides the point.
>> >>
>> >> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal overhead in
>> >> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user expectation_
>> or
>> >> environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people have some
>> >> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a concept) in
>> certain
>> >> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means different
>> things.
>> >>
>> >> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci question than a
>> >> specific python question.  The problem set applies across languages.
>> >>
>> >> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer understands
>> the
>> >> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the toolbox?  Is there an
>> >> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not the ideal
>> solution?
>> >>
>> >> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the toolbox to deal
>> >> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches. "Scalability" means
>> >>> different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the
>> >>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the architecture
>> of
>> >>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain scales.
>> For
>> >>> data structures that are mostly read, not written, synchronization is
>> >>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput possible in
>> >>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be achieved by
>> a
>> >>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing between
>> >>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless you had a
>> >>> programming language that makes both approaches transparent) and so
>> >>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One
>> >>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that MIGHT use
>> the
>> >>> same data structures are actually performed on the same node, so that
>> >>> threading would be put to use.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you still
>> need
>> >>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use
>> >>> it."
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right is hard.
>> >>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard, too. Good
>> >>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with experience and a
>> >>> desire to learn.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -Tal
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very
>> >>>>> rarely have
>> >>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Alex
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement
>> >>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing Python and
>> >>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find that almost
>> >>>> significant application is based on message passing (e.g., MPI). This
>> >>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be about the only
>> sane
>> >>>> way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of
>> >>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software for large
>> >>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first discovered
>> >>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done performance
>> >>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>> >>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't scale
>> or
>> >>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines with as few as 4
>> >>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no
>> >>>> Python or GIL).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still need to
>> >>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your application to use
>> it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Dave
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Chicago mailing list
>> >>>> Chicago at python.org
>> >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Chicago mailing list
>> >>> Chicago at python.org
>> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chicago mailing list
>> >> Chicago at python.org
>> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
>
> --
> blogs:
> http://johnstoner.wordpress.com/
> 'In knowledge is power; in  wisdom, humility.'
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
There's a student at the university of colorado working on Jython
performance stuff using the new invokedynamic from Java 7.  No idea what his
progress is, but I'm not holding my breath.  Optimizing Jython, Jruby, and
every other JVM language seems to be playing to what the Hotspot team is
doing this week.  The JVM instruction set was not designed for dynamic
languages (or with them in mind), that's why even though JRuby is much
faster than MRI to my knowledge, PyPy can still smoke it (citation:
http://attractivechaos.github.com/plb/ , this benchmark ha 101 problems, not
the least of which is it's running an out of date PyPy, but it illustrates
my point).

Alex

-- 
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
"The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
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From tal.liron at threecrickets.com  Mon Jul 25 02:38:13 2011
From: tal.liron at threecrickets.com (Tal Liron)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:38:13 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
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JVM 7 will have some neat features, but they haven't been stabilized 
yet, and at this point it's mostly experimentation. Fact is, even though 
JVM 6 has been out for a few years already, many deployments still stick 
to JVM 5. It does the job, and "upgrades" have their costs, money and 
otherwise. I choose JVM for my project not because of speed, but because 
of the maturity of the platform, which includes administration tools, 
monitoring, security, and several best-in-class 3rd party libraries. 
It's nice to know that performance is very high up there if I really 
need it (at which case I just "drop down" to Java, rather than use a 
dynamic JVM language).


The whole Jython codebase could use some help... it's even messier than 
CPython's, if that's possible. There's a lot of room for optimization, 
even before igniting JVM 7 shortcuts, though it will surely be at the 
cost of regressions and stability.Luckily, there's a decent test suite, 
which makes it easy to experiment for. The Jython community would LOVE 
help, and it doesn't have to be just in terms of coding. Their recent 
big project was to move the whole codebase from Subversion to Mercurial. 
Another big item on the todo list is to get up to date with Python 3. 
(Jython = Python 2.5 formally, though it has quite a few 2.6 additions.)


Jython also has some nice collaboration with JRuby, including people who 
work on both projects. But, what I would make me happier is if there was 
real code sharing, allowing for a dynamic core that would work well for 
both projects.


Anyway. I guess I'm always confused by what people mean by "faster." 
What are you trying to code for, exactly? Where is your bottleneck? What 
is your funding? It's more likely that (although not necessarily) what 
you really are looking for is "scalability," for which shear 
computational performance is likely not the real issue. If money is 
coming, getting more expensive, faster machines may do the trick better 
than any JVM 7 optimization.


If you just want a command line tool that starts fast, JVM is *not* 
where you want to go. It has notoriously slow startup, for exactly those 
mechanisms that make it perform so well as it runs.


Another way to look at "faster" is as a way to save money. Weird, huh? 
But consider Facebook's HipHop project. (Sorry that all of my examples 
are from the web arena; it's where I mostly work these days.) The issue 
was not that PHP was "slow," it was that when you have 1,000 machines 
running at 90% CPU, a faster PHP runtime means that you can use 800 
machines, instead, for the same workload. A few orders of magnitude 
forward, and savings can be enormous.


If you have a project with 1,000 machines running at 90% CPU, please 
hire me! It may be very worthwhile for you to create a more performant 
Python runtime (JVM-based or not), and I'd love to be paid to do that. 
:) And it would also make a lot of irrational Python speed freaks happy.


-Tal


On 07/24/2011 06:18 PM, John Stoner wrote:

> Jython's not bad. I've used it a lot, and it plays well with lots of 
> Java APIs. Pretty slick, actually. I hear Java 1.7 has some new 
> dynamic features at the JVM level. I always imagined Jython would run 
> a lot faster if it took advantage of them. Tal, do you know if there's 
> any work on that? Googling around a bit I'm not seeing much.
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Joshua Herman 
> <zitterbewegung at gmail.com <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware that Jython
>     was that powerful I will have to play with it.
>
>     On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron
>     <tal.liron at threecrickets.com <mailto:tal.liron at threecrickets.com>>
>     wrote:
>     > There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the JVM, and
>     has no GIL.
>     > It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If you want
>     to do
>     > high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has
>     other advantages
>     > and disadvantages, of course.)
>     >
>     >
>     > I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to create new
>     virtual
>     > machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X.
>     This shows a
>     > huge under-estimation of what it means to create a robust, reliable,
>     > performative generic platform. Consider how many really reliable
>     versions of
>     > the C standard library out there -- and how many decades they
>     took to
>     > mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over the code
>     and testing
>     > it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data
>     integrity, scoping
>     > (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other huge (and
>     exciting)
>     > challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
>     >
>     >
>     > So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or Parrot
>     come to be.
>     > Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm equally
>     impressed
>     > by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual machine from
>     scratch.
>     >
>     >
>     > But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own
>     unique history.
>     > Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6 years older
>     than Java,
>     > and the JVM would take another decade before reaching
>     prominence. JavaScript
>     > engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were
>     terrible, and Perl
>     > was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was
>     written where
>     > there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It
>     wasn't a matter
>     > of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch;
>     there was simply
>     > no choice.
>     >
>     >
>     > Right now, though, there are many good choices. People like Rich
>     Hickey
>     > (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in targeting
>     the JVM,
>     > although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If Python
>     were invented
>     > today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython," instead of
>     trying to
>     > reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet,
>     really, in terms
>     > of the work required).
>     >
>     >
>     > One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects like
>     PyPy and LLVM.
>     > These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet
>     another dynamic
>     > VM" does not.
>     >
>     >
>     > -Tal
>     >
>     >
>     > On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
>     >
>     >> I also have to quote:
>     >>
>     >> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory concurrency is
>     >> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about the GIL),
>     message
>     >> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal overhead
>     (plus data
>     >> size/locality ones)."
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in quite a
>     while. Dave's
>     >> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the
>     rudeness, or
>     >> not, is kinda besides the point.
>     >>
>     >> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal
>     overhead in
>     >> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user
>     expectation_ or
>     >> environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people
>     have some
>     >> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a
>     concept) in certain
>     >> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means
>     different things.
>     >>
>     >> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci
>     question than a
>     >> specific python question.  The problem set applies across
>     languages.
>     >>
>     >> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer
>     understands the
>     >> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the toolbox?  Is
>     there an
>     >> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not the ideal
>     solution?
>     >>
>     >> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the toolbox
>     to deal
>     >> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches.
>     "Scalability" means
>     >>> different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the
>     >>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the
>     architecture of
>     >>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain
>     scales. For
>     >>> data structures that are mostly read, not written,
>     synchronization is
>     >>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput
>     possible in
>     >>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be
>     achieved by a
>     >>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing
>     between
>     >>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless
>     you had a
>     >>> programming language that makes both approaches transparent)
>     and so
>     >>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One
>     >>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that
>     MIGHT use the
>     >>> same data structures are actually performed on the same node,
>     so that
>     >>> threading would be put to use.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you
>     still need
>     >>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>     application to use
>     >>> it."
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right
>     is hard.
>     >>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard,
>     too. Good
>     >>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with
>     experience and a
>     >>> desire to learn.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> -Tal
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very
>     >>>>> rarely have
>     >>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>> Alex
>     >>>>>
>     >>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a
>     statement
>     >>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing Python and
>     >>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find
>     that almost
>     >>>> significant application is based on message passing (e.g.,
>     MPI). This
>     >>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be about the
>     only sane
>     >>>> way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of
>     >>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>     >>>>
>     >>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software
>     for large
>     >>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first
>     discovered
>     >>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done
>     performance
>     >>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>     >>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't
>     scale or
>     >>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines with as
>     few as 4
>     >>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no
>     >>>> Python or GIL).
>     >>>>
>     >>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still
>     need to
>     >>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your application
>     to use it.
>     >>>>
>     >>>> Cheers,
>     >>>> Dave
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>> _______________________________________________
>     >>>> Chicago mailing list
>     >>>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>     >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>     >>>
>     >>> _______________________________________________
>     >>> Chicago mailing list
>     >>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>     >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>     >>
>     >> _______________________________________________
>     >> Chicago mailing list
>     >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>     >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Chicago mailing list
>     > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>     > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>     Chicago mailing list
>     Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>     http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> blogs:
> http://johnstoner.wordpress.com/
> 'In knowledge is power; in  wisdom, humility.'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From alex.gaynor at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 02:57:49 2011
From: alex.gaynor at gmail.com (Alex Gaynor)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 17:57:49 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com>wrote:

> JVM 7 will have some neat features, but they haven't been stabilized yet,
> and at this point it's mostly experimentation. Fact is, even though JVM 6
> has been out for a few years already, many deployments still stick to JVM 5.
> It does the job, and "upgrades" have their costs, money and otherwise. I
> choose JVM for my project not because of speed, but because of the maturity
> of the platform, which includes administration tools, monitoring, security,
> and several best-in-class 3rd party libraries. It's nice to know that
> performance is very high up there if I really need it (at which case I just
> "drop down" to Java, rather than use a dynamic JVM language).
>
>
> The whole Jython codebase could use some help... it's even messier than
> CPython's, if that's possible. There's a lot of room for optimization, even
> before igniting JVM 7 shortcuts, though it will surely be at the cost of
> regressions and stability.Luckily, there's a decent test suite, which makes
> it easy to experiment for. The Jython community would LOVE help, and it
> doesn't have to be just in terms of coding. Their recent big project was to
> move the whole codebase from Subversion to Mercurial. Another big item on
> the todo list is to get up to date with Python 3. (Jython = Python 2.5
> formally, though it has quite a few 2.6 additions.)
>
>
> Jython also has some nice collaboration with JRuby, including people who
> work on both projects. But, what I would make me happier is if there was
> real code sharing, allowing for a dynamic core that would work well for both
> projects.
>
>
> Anyway. I guess I'm always confused by what people mean by "faster." What
> are you trying to code for, exactly? Where is your bottleneck? What is your
> funding? It's more likely that (although not necessarily) what you really
> are looking for is "scalability," for which shear computational performance
> is likely not the real issue. If money is coming, getting more expensive,
> faster machines may do the trick better than any JVM 7 optimization.
>
>
> If you just want a command line tool that starts fast, JVM is *not* where
> you want to go. It has notoriously slow startup, for exactly those
> mechanisms that make it perform so well as it runs.
>
>
> Another way to look at "faster" is as a way to save money. Weird, huh? But
> consider Facebook's HipHop project. (Sorry that all of my examples are from
> the web arena; it's where I mostly work these days.) The issue was not that
> PHP was "slow," it was that when you have 1,000 machines running at 90% CPU,
> a faster PHP runtime means that you can use 800 machines, instead, for the
> same workload. A few orders of magnitude forward, and savings can be
> enormous.
>
>
> If you have a project with 1,000 machines running at 90% CPU, please hire
> me! It may be very worthwhile for you to create a more performant Python
> runtime (JVM-based or not), and I'd love to be paid to do that. :) And it
> would also make a lot of irrational Python speed freaks happy.
>
>
> -Tal
>
>
<minor derail>
No offense, but if you want a more performant Python runtime, it's here
today: http://speed.pypy.org/, no need to start from scratch.
</minor derail>

Alex


>
>
> On 07/24/2011 06:18 PM, John Stoner wrote:
>
>  Jython's not bad. I've used it a lot, and it plays well with lots of Java
>> APIs. Pretty slick, actually. I hear Java 1.7 has some new dynamic features
>> at the JVM level. I always imagined Jython would run a lot faster if it took
>> advantage of them. Tal, do you know if there's any work on that? Googling
>> around a bit I'm not seeing much.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com<mailto:
>> zitterbewegung at gmail.**com <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>
>>    At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware that Jython
>>    was that powerful I will have to play with it.
>>
>>    On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron
>>    <tal.liron at threecrickets.com <mailto:tal.liron@**threecrickets.com<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>> >>
>>
>>    wrote:
>>    > There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the JVM, and
>>    has no GIL.
>>    > It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If you want
>>    to do
>>    > high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has
>>    other advantages
>>    > and disadvantages, of course.)
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to create new
>>    virtual
>>    > machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X.
>>    This shows a
>>    > huge under-estimation of what it means to create a robust, reliable,
>>    > performative generic platform. Consider how many really reliable
>>    versions of
>>    > the C standard library out there -- and how many decades they
>>    took to
>>    > mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over the code
>>    and testing
>>    > it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data
>>    integrity, scoping
>>    > (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other huge (and
>>    exciting)
>>    > challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or Parrot
>>    come to be.
>>    > Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm equally
>>    impressed
>>    > by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual machine from
>>    scratch.
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own
>>    unique history.
>>    > Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6 years older
>>    than Java,
>>    > and the JVM would take another decade before reaching
>>    prominence. JavaScript
>>    > engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were
>>    terrible, and Perl
>>    > was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was
>>    written where
>>    > there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It
>>    wasn't a matter
>>    > of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch;
>>    there was simply
>>    > no choice.
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > Right now, though, there are many good choices. People like Rich
>>    Hickey
>>    > (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in targeting
>>    the JVM,
>>    > although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If Python
>>    were invented
>>    > today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython," instead of
>>    trying to
>>    > reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet,
>>    really, in terms
>>    > of the work required).
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects like
>>    PyPy and LLVM.
>>    > These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet
>>    another dynamic
>>    > VM" does not.
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > -Tal
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
>>    >
>>    >> I also have to quote:
>>    >>
>>    >> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory concurrency is
>>    >> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about the GIL),
>>    message
>>    >> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal overhead
>>    (plus data
>>    >> size/locality ones)."
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in quite a
>>    while. Dave's
>>    >> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the
>>    rudeness, or
>>    >> not, is kinda besides the point.
>>    >>
>>    >> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal
>>    overhead in
>>    >> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user
>>    expectation_ or
>>    >> environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people
>>    have some
>>    >> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a
>>    concept) in certain
>>    >> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means
>>    different things.
>>    >>
>>    >> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci
>>    question than a
>>    >> specific python question.  The problem set applies across
>>    languages.
>>    >>
>>    >> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer
>>    understands the
>>    >> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the toolbox?  Is
>>    there an
>>    >> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not the ideal
>>    solution?
>>    >>
>>    >> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the toolbox
>>    to deal
>>    >> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>>    >>
>>    >>
>>    >> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>    >>>
>>    >>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches.
>>    "Scalability" means
>>    >>> different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the
>>    >>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the
>>    architecture of
>>    >>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain
>>    scales. For
>>    >>> data structures that are mostly read, not written,
>>    synchronization is
>>    >>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput
>>    possible in
>>    >>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be
>>    achieved by a
>>    >>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing
>>    between
>>    >>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless
>>    you had a
>>    >>> programming language that makes both approaches transparent)
>>    and so
>>    >>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One
>>    >>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that
>>    MIGHT use the
>>    >>> same data structures are actually performed on the same node,
>>    so that
>>    >>> threading would be put to use.
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you
>>    still need
>>    >>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>>    application to use
>>    >>> it."
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right
>>    is hard.
>>    >>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard,
>>    too. Good
>>    >>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with
>>    experience and a
>>    >>> desire to learn.
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> -Tal
>>    >>>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>>    >>>
>>    >>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very
>>    >>>>> rarely have
>>    >>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>    >>>>>
>>    >>>>> Alex
>>    >>>>>
>>    >>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a
>>    statement
>>    >>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing Python and
>>    >>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find
>>    that almost
>>    >>>> significant application is based on message passing (e.g.,
>>    MPI). This
>>    >>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be about the
>>    only sane
>>    >>>> way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of
>>    >>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software
>>    for large
>>    >>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first
>>    discovered
>>    >>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done
>>    performance
>>    >>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>>    >>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't
>>    scale or
>>    >>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines with as
>>    few as 4
>>    >>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no
>>    >>>> Python or GIL).
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still
>>    need to
>>    >>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your application
>>    to use it.
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>> Cheers,
>>    >>>> Dave
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>>
>>    >>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>    >>>> Chicago mailing list
>>    >>>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>
>>    >>>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>    >>>
>>    >>> ______________________________**_________________
>>    >>> Chicago mailing list
>>    >>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>
>>    >>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>    >>
>>    >> ______________________________**_________________
>>    >> Chicago mailing list
>>    >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>
>>    >> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>    >
>>    > ______________________________**_________________
>>    > Chicago mailing list
>>    > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>
>>    > http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>    >
>>    ______________________________**_________________
>>    Chicago mailing list
>>    Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>
>>    http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> blogs:
>> http://johnstoner.wordpress.**com/ <http://johnstoner.wordpress.com/>
>> 'In knowledge is power; in  wisdom, humility.'
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>



-- 
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
"The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 03:42:25 2011
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:42:25 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAPJgG3TY3ffuxPN75U=Tw01Mif65=9gP1ZpGTai2_LHRp4fO6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rYpg9azNKp+m0boHRyxP5+xYH3=CqaC6cSmSTzA_vZw3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TY3ffuxPN75U=Tw01Mif65=9gP1ZpGTai2_LHRp4fO6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJgG3TJFfaTOus3mUFmQ2m3oyZDR1QkORc1XEQxnkHFxDJAMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Apropos of my hijacking this thread, anyone interested in Pycon / Havana?

Feel free to accept my invitation to go off list with that interest.

If you Google it, you'll see I've been spinning some plot lines in this
direction.

Pycon / Tehran also on the horizon...


On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:56 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't want kirby to be discouraged from posting.
>>
>>
> No worries, took it as a complement.
>
>
>>  On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Way to hijack my thread jerk.
>> >
>>
>
Go back and sit in 34B, or 34A if you wanna see Cuba.

Back to lurking,

Kirby


> >
>> > Arigatou gozaimasu,
>> > (Thank you very much)
>> > Brian Herman
>> >
>> > brianjherman.com
>> > brianherman at acm.org
>>
>
>
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From vapor.noob at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 03:47:29 2011
From: vapor.noob at gmail.com (Dan Schmidt)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 20:47:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <CAHzLg+afHJQjV=+JRJksghJuUCi6SsgkMgAXcQbMgtPfAJfS6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJgaE5R9vTokQYJPjFMB0wRvSyC+hEuPo9VZRyxkLTivLS48cQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<C42FE6AE-5A91-4CC4-BB16-C0C5F4E5FACD@me.com>
	<CAHzLg+afHJQjV=+JRJksghJuUCi6SsgkMgAXcQbMgtPfAJfS6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+zxufVRLZE+xx0oD+xufE-o30WcOyNEsNq-_ZMhcMAuS26ZEA@mail.gmail.com>

I'd love to help as well.

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Daniel Peters <danieltpeters at gmail.com>wrote:

> I would love to help with this in whatever way you need.
>
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Jeremy McMillan <
> jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 6 years ago I put together a Plone for ChicagoFairTrade.org under Nancy
>> Jones. It was a good learning experience, and it really helped legitimize
>> the fledgling organization. I was thinking of doing another site like that,
>> sort of as a Django portfolio piece. I'd like to propose taking this on as a
>> Chipy mentoring program project.
>>
>> Maybe "Project Mayhem?"
>>
>> I may try to do this myself, but this is work for any of Santa's helpers
>> in July, so why not make it a Stone Soup type production?
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *Nancy Jones <njones at chicagofairtrade.org>
>> *Subject: **website needed for social enterprise*
>> *Date: *July 21, 2011 5:16:02 PM CDT
>> *To: *Jeremy McMillan <aphor at me.com>, Fey <fey at pureedenspaproducts.com>
>>
>> Hi Jeremy,
>> I'd like to introduce you to Fey Cruz who is the person I mentioned who is
>> reviving the social enterprise, now named Pure Eden Spa Products.  They have
>> just been up and running, reconnecting with old customers, but will really
>> need a website by October to be able to take advantage of the holiday
>> business.  I'm attaching a brief description of the project for you to pass
>> around to find some volunteers.  Fey is available to talk over what they
>> need on their site.  Any help would be appreciated!
>> Nancy
>>
>> Website design needed for new social enterprise: Pure Eden Spa Products
>>
>>
>> A ten year old social enterprise, The Enterprising Kitchen (made soaps and
>> creams which provided work training for women) closed in December - crunched
>> by debt.  Now a couple of those women are relaunching the project with
>> the same mission and products, new name Pure Eden Spa Products.  They are
>> a member of Chicago Fair Trade (we have a couple social enterprises as
>> members)   They need a website and don't have the funds for this now but
>> of course they won't move far with their business without one.  Essentially,
>> they'd need an e-commerce site.  They are reviving their old customer
>> base but now all orders are via phone and sending email to part time staff.
>> They have a domain...with a page that says their site is coming soon.  Questions?
>> Contact fey at pureedenspaproducts.com
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nancy Jones
>> Chicago Fair Trade
>> 637 S. Dearborn 3rd fl
>> Chicago, IL. 60605
>> 312-212-1760
>> www.chicagofairtrade.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>


-- 
*- Dan Schmidt*
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 04:01:37 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:01:37 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAPJgG3TJFfaTOus3mUFmQ2m3oyZDR1QkORc1XEQxnkHFxDJAMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rYpg9azNKp+m0boHRyxP5+xYH3=CqaC6cSmSTzA_vZw3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TY3ffuxPN75U=Tw01Mif65=9gP1ZpGTai2_LHRp4fO6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TJFfaTOus3mUFmQ2m3oyZDR1QkORc1XEQxnkHFxDJAMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=nFPte1EgPOSgtfRiZGQmB6ms6-E2FkTRmOHR-sazRUg@mail.gmail.com>

I want Pycon / Moon but transport is getting harder everyday.

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:42 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
> Apropos of my hijacking this thread, anyone interested in Pycon / Havana?
>
> Feel free to accept my invitation to go off list with that interest.
>
> If you Google it, you'll see I've been spinning some plot lines in this
> direction.
>
> Pycon / Tehran also on the horizon...
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:56 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't want kirby to be discouraged from posting.
>>>
>>
>> No worries, took it as a complement.
>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Way to hijack my thread jerk.
>>> >
>
> Go back and sit in 34B, or 34A if you wanna see Cuba.
>
> Back to lurking,
>
> Kirby
>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Arigatou gozaimasu,
>>> > (Thank you very much)
>>> > Brian Herman
>>> >
>>> > brianjherman.com
>>> > brianherman at acm.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From brianherman at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 05:13:22 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:13:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>

+1 for PYPY


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com>wrote:
>
>> JVM 7 will have some neat features, but they haven't been stabilized yet,
>> and at this point it's mostly experimentation. Fact is, even though JVM 6
>> has been out for a few years already, many deployments still stick to JVM 5.
>> It does the job, and "upgrades" have their costs, money and otherwise. I
>> choose JVM for my project not because of speed, but because of the maturity
>> of the platform, which includes administration tools, monitoring, security,
>> and several best-in-class 3rd party libraries. It's nice to know that
>> performance is very high up there if I really need it (at which case I just
>> "drop down" to Java, rather than use a dynamic JVM language).
>>
>>
>> The whole Jython codebase could use some help... it's even messier than
>> CPython's, if that's possible. There's a lot of room for optimization, even
>> before igniting JVM 7 shortcuts, though it will surely be at the cost of
>> regressions and stability.Luckily, there's a decent test suite, which makes
>> it easy to experiment for. The Jython community would LOVE help, and it
>> doesn't have to be just in terms of coding. Their recent big project was to
>> move the whole codebase from Subversion to Mercurial. Another big item on
>> the todo list is to get up to date with Python 3. (Jython = Python 2.5
>> formally, though it has quite a few 2.6 additions.)
>>
>>
>> Jython also has some nice collaboration with JRuby, including people who
>> work on both projects. But, what I would make me happier is if there was
>> real code sharing, allowing for a dynamic core that would work well for both
>> projects.
>>
>>
>> Anyway. I guess I'm always confused by what people mean by "faster." What
>> are you trying to code for, exactly? Where is your bottleneck? What is your
>> funding? It's more likely that (although not necessarily) what you really
>> are looking for is "scalability," for which shear computational performance
>> is likely not the real issue. If money is coming, getting more expensive,
>> faster machines may do the trick better than any JVM 7 optimization.
>>
>>
>> If you just want a command line tool that starts fast, JVM is *not* where
>> you want to go. It has notoriously slow startup, for exactly those
>> mechanisms that make it perform so well as it runs.
>>
>>
>> Another way to look at "faster" is as a way to save money. Weird, huh? But
>> consider Facebook's HipHop project. (Sorry that all of my examples are from
>> the web arena; it's where I mostly work these days.) The issue was not that
>> PHP was "slow," it was that when you have 1,000 machines running at 90% CPU,
>> a faster PHP runtime means that you can use 800 machines, instead, for the
>> same workload. A few orders of magnitude forward, and savings can be
>> enormous.
>>
>>
>> If you have a project with 1,000 machines running at 90% CPU, please hire
>> me! It may be very worthwhile for you to create a more performant Python
>> runtime (JVM-based or not), and I'd love to be paid to do that. :) And it
>> would also make a lot of irrational Python speed freaks happy.
>>
>>
>> -Tal
>>
>>
> <minor derail>
> No offense, but if you want a more performant Python runtime, it's here
> today: http://speed.pypy.org/, no need to start from scratch.
> </minor derail>
>
> Alex
>
>
>>
>>
>> On 07/24/2011 06:18 PM, John Stoner wrote:
>>
>>  Jython's not bad. I've used it a lot, and it plays well with lots of Java
>>> APIs. Pretty slick, actually. I hear Java 1.7 has some new dynamic features
>>> at the JVM level. I always imagined Jython would run a lot faster if it took
>>> advantage of them. Tal, do you know if there's any work on that? Googling
>>> around a bit I'm not seeing much.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com<mailto:
>>> zitterbewegung at gmail.**com <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>    At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware that Jython
>>>    was that powerful I will have to play with it.
>>>
>>>    On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron
>>>    <tal.liron at threecrickets.com <mailto:tal.liron@**threecrickets.com<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>    wrote:
>>>    > There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the JVM, and
>>>    has no GIL.
>>>    > It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If you want
>>>    to do
>>>    > high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has
>>>    other advantages
>>>    > and disadvantages, of course.)
>>>    >
>>>    >
>>>    > I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to create new
>>>    virtual
>>>    > machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X.
>>>    This shows a
>>>    > huge under-estimation of what it means to create a robust, reliable,
>>>    > performative generic platform. Consider how many really reliable
>>>    versions of
>>>    > the C standard library out there -- and how many decades they
>>>    took to
>>>    > mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over the code
>>>    and testing
>>>    > it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data
>>>    integrity, scoping
>>>    > (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other huge (and
>>>    exciting)
>>>    > challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
>>>    >
>>>    >
>>>    > So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or Parrot
>>>    come to be.
>>>    > Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm equally
>>>    impressed
>>>    > by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual machine from
>>>    scratch.
>>>    >
>>>    >
>>>    > But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own
>>>    unique history.
>>>    > Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6 years older
>>>    than Java,
>>>    > and the JVM would take another decade before reaching
>>>    prominence. JavaScript
>>>    > engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were
>>>    terrible, and Perl
>>>    > was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was
>>>    written where
>>>    > there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It
>>>    wasn't a matter
>>>    > of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch;
>>>    there was simply
>>>    > no choice.
>>>    >
>>>    >
>>>    > Right now, though, there are many good choices. People like Rich
>>>    Hickey
>>>    > (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in targeting
>>>    the JVM,
>>>    > although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If Python
>>>    were invented
>>>    > today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython," instead of
>>>    trying to
>>>    > reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet,
>>>    really, in terms
>>>    > of the work required).
>>>    >
>>>    >
>>>    > One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects like
>>>    PyPy and LLVM.
>>>    > These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet
>>>    another dynamic
>>>    > VM" does not.
>>>    >
>>>    >
>>>    > -Tal
>>>    >
>>>    >
>>>    > On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
>>>    >
>>>    >> I also have to quote:
>>>    >>
>>>    >> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory concurrency is
>>>    >> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about the GIL),
>>>    message
>>>    >> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal overhead
>>>    (plus data
>>>    >> size/locality ones)."
>>>    >>
>>>    >>
>>>    >> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in quite a
>>>    while. Dave's
>>>    >> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the
>>>    rudeness, or
>>>    >> not, is kinda besides the point.
>>>    >>
>>>    >> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal
>>>    overhead in
>>>    >> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user
>>>    expectation_ or
>>>    >> environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people
>>>    have some
>>>    >> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a
>>>    concept) in certain
>>>    >> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means
>>>    different things.
>>>    >>
>>>    >> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci
>>>    question than a
>>>    >> specific python question.  The problem set applies across
>>>    languages.
>>>    >>
>>>    >> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer
>>>    understands the
>>>    >> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the toolbox?  Is
>>>    there an
>>>    >> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not the ideal
>>>    solution?
>>>    >>
>>>    >> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the toolbox
>>>    to deal
>>>    >> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>>>    >>
>>>    >>
>>>    >> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches.
>>>    "Scalability" means
>>>    >>> different things at different levels of scale. A web example: the
>>>    >>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the
>>>    architecture of
>>>    >>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same problem field.
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at certain
>>>    scales. For
>>>    >>> data structures that are mostly read, not written,
>>>    synchronization is
>>>    >>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput
>>>    possible in
>>>    >>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be
>>>    achieved by a
>>>    >>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message passing
>>>    between
>>>    >>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare (unless
>>>    you had a
>>>    >>> programming language that makes both approaches transparent)
>>>    and so
>>>    >>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is chosen. One
>>>    >>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that
>>>    MIGHT use the
>>>    >>> same data structures are actually performed on the same node,
>>>    so that
>>>    >>> threading would be put to use.
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading, too: "you
>>>    still need
>>>    >>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>>>    application to use
>>>    >>> it."
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing right
>>>    is hard.
>>>    >>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard,
>>>    too. Good
>>>    >>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with
>>>    experience and a
>>>    >>> desire to learn.
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>> -Tal
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that message" very
>>>    >>>>> rarely have
>>>    >>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>>    >>>>>
>>>    >>>>> Alex
>>>    >>>>>
>>>    >>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a
>>>    statement
>>>    >>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing Python and
>>>    >>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find
>>>    that almost
>>>    >>>> significant application is based on message passing (e.g.,
>>>    MPI). This
>>>    >>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be about the
>>>    only sane
>>>    >>>> way of scaling applications up to run across thousands to tens of
>>>    >>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such software
>>>    for large
>>>    >>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I first
>>>    discovered
>>>    >>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done
>>>    performance
>>>    >>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>>>    >>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads just didn't
>>>    scale or
>>>    >>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines with as
>>>    few as 4
>>>    >>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for numerics (i.e., no
>>>    >>>> Python or GIL).
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you still
>>>    need to
>>>    >>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your application
>>>    to use it.
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>> Cheers,
>>>    >>>> Dave
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>>
>>>    >>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>    >>>> Chicago mailing list
>>>    >>>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>
>>>    >>>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>    >>>
>>>    >>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>    >>> Chicago mailing list
>>>    >>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>
>>>    >>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>    >>
>>>    >> ______________________________**_________________
>>>    >> Chicago mailing list
>>>    >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>
>>>    >> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>    >
>>>    > ______________________________**_________________
>>>    > Chicago mailing list
>>>    > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>
>>>    > http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>    >
>>>    ______________________________**_________________
>>>    Chicago mailing list
>>>    Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>
>>>    http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> blogs:
>>> http://johnstoner.wordpress.**com/ <http://johnstoner.wordpress.com/>
>>> 'In knowledge is power; in  wisdom, humility.'
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
> say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
> "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From toba at des.truct.org  Mon Jul 25 05:26:45 2011
From: toba at des.truct.org (Eric Stein)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:26:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1z=nFPte1EgPOSgtfRiZGQmB6ms6-E2FkTRmOHR-sazRUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>	<CAHCs_rYpg9azNKp+m0boHRyxP5+xYH3=CqaC6cSmSTzA_vZw3A@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPJgG3TY3ffuxPN75U=Tw01Mif65=9gP1ZpGTai2_LHRp4fO6Q@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPJgG3TJFfaTOus3mUFmQ2m3oyZDR1QkORc1XEQxnkHFxDJAMQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=nFPte1EgPOSgtfRiZGQmB6ms6-E2FkTRmOHR-sazRUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E2CE275.1020605@des.truct.org>

CC me when you've got a carpool set up.

Eric

On 07/24/2011 09:01 PM, Joshua Herman wrote:
> I want Pycon / Moon but transport is getting harder everyday.
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:42 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Apropos of my hijacking this thread, anyone interested in Pycon / Havana?
>>
>> Feel free to accept my invitation to go off list with that interest.
>>
>> If you Google it, you'll see I've been spinning some plot lines in this
>> direction.
>>
>> Pycon / Tehran also on the horizon...
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:56 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>>>> I don't want kirby to be discouraged from posting.
>>>>
>>> No worries, took it as a complement.
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Way to hijack my thread jerk.
>>>>>
>> Go back and sit in 34B, or 34A if you wanna see Cuba.
>>
>> Back to lurking,
>>
>> Kirby
>>
>>>>> Arigatou gozaimasu,
>>>>> (Thank you very much)
>>>>> Brian Herman
>>>>>
>>>>> brianjherman.com
>>>>> brianherman at acm.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From brianherman at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 05:38:04 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:38:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <4E2CE275.1020605@des.truct.org>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rYpg9azNKp+m0boHRyxP5+xYH3=CqaC6cSmSTzA_vZw3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TY3ffuxPN75U=Tw01Mif65=9gP1ZpGTai2_LHRp4fO6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TJFfaTOus3mUFmQ2m3oyZDR1QkORc1XEQxnkHFxDJAMQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=nFPte1EgPOSgtfRiZGQmB6ms6-E2FkTRmOHR-sazRUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE275.1020605@des.truct.org>
Message-ID: <CAJD01woVb3_u4=Sp=JpYLB2RAp+oZ-F2hObheAqAa8P+3Y7WKg@mail.gmail.com>

Virgin Galactic is only 100,000 dollars


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Eric Stein <toba at des.truct.org> wrote:

> CC me when you've got a carpool set up.
>
> Eric
>
> On 07/24/2011 09:01 PM, Joshua Herman wrote:
> > I want Pycon / Moon but transport is getting harder everyday.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:42 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Apropos of my hijacking this thread, anyone interested in Pycon /
> Havana?
> >>
> >> Feel free to accept my invitation to go off list with that interest.
> >>
> >> If you Google it, you'll see I've been spinning some plot lines in this
> >> direction.
> >>
> >> Pycon / Tehran also on the horizon...
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:56 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> I don't want kirby to be discouraged from posting.
> >>>>
> >>> No worries, took it as a complement.
> >>>
> >>>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> Way to hijack my thread jerk.
> >>>>>
> >> Go back and sit in 34B, or 34A if you wanna see Cuba.
> >>
> >> Back to lurking,
> >>
> >> Kirby
> >>
> >>>>> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> >>>>> (Thank you very much)
> >>>>> Brian Herman
> >>>>>
> >>>>> brianjherman.com
> >>>>> brianherman at acm.org
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From tal.liron at threecrickets.com  Mon Jul 25 05:46:19 2011
From: tal.liron at threecrickets.com (Tal Liron)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:46:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>

For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:


Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not care 
about speed benchmarks.


On 07/24/2011 10:13 PM, Brian Herman wrote:

> +1 for PYPY
>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com <http://brianjherman.com>
> brianherman at acm.org <mailto:brianherman at acm.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com 
> <mailto:alex.gaynor at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Tal Liron
>     <tal.liron at threecrickets.com <mailto:tal.liron at threecrickets.com>>
>     wrote:
>
>         JVM 7 will have some neat features, but they haven't been
>         stabilized yet, and at this point it's mostly experimentation.
>         Fact is, even though JVM 6 has been out for a few years
>         already, many deployments still stick to JVM 5. It does the
>         job, and "upgrades" have their costs, money and otherwise. I
>         choose JVM for my project not because of speed, but because of
>         the maturity of the platform, which includes administration
>         tools, monitoring, security, and several best-in-class 3rd
>         party libraries. It's nice to know that performance is very
>         high up there if I really need it (at which case I just "drop
>         down" to Java, rather than use a dynamic JVM language).
>
>
>         The whole Jython codebase could use some help... it's even
>         messier than CPython's, if that's possible. There's a lot of
>         room for optimization, even before igniting JVM 7 shortcuts,
>         though it will surely be at the cost of regressions and
>         stability.Luckily, there's a decent test suite, which makes it
>         easy to experiment for. The Jython community would LOVE help,
>         and it doesn't have to be just in terms of coding. Their
>         recent big project was to move the whole codebase from
>         Subversion to Mercurial. Another big item on the todo list is
>         to get up to date with Python 3. (Jython = Python 2.5
>         formally, though it has quite a few 2.6 additions.)
>
>
>         Jython also has some nice collaboration with JRuby, including
>         people who work on both projects. But, what I would make me
>         happier is if there was real code sharing, allowing for a
>         dynamic core that would work well for both projects.
>
>
>         Anyway. I guess I'm always confused by what people mean by
>         "faster." What are you trying to code for, exactly? Where is
>         your bottleneck? What is your funding? It's more likely that
>         (although not necessarily) what you really are looking for is
>         "scalability," for which shear computational performance is
>         likely not the real issue. If money is coming, getting more
>         expensive, faster machines may do the trick better than any
>         JVM 7 optimization.
>
>
>         If you just want a command line tool that starts fast, JVM is
>         *not* where you want to go. It has notoriously slow startup,
>         for exactly those mechanisms that make it perform so well as
>         it runs.
>
>
>         Another way to look at "faster" is as a way to save money.
>         Weird, huh? But consider Facebook's HipHop project. (Sorry
>         that all of my examples are from the web arena; it's where I
>         mostly work these days.) The issue was not that PHP was
>         "slow," it was that when you have 1,000 machines running at
>         90% CPU, a faster PHP runtime means that you can use 800
>         machines, instead, for the same workload. A few orders of
>         magnitude forward, and savings can be enormous.
>
>
>         If you have a project with 1,000 machines running at 90% CPU,
>         please hire me! It may be very worthwhile for you to create a
>         more performant Python runtime (JVM-based or not), and I'd
>         love to be paid to do that. :) And it would also make a lot of
>         irrational Python speed freaks happy.
>
>
>         -Tal
>
>
>     <minor derail>
>     No offense, but if you want a more performant Python runtime, it's
>     here today: http://speed.pypy.org/, no need to start from scratch.
>     </minor derail>
>
>     Alex
>
>
>
>         On 07/24/2011 06:18 PM, John Stoner wrote:
>
>             Jython's not bad. I've used it a lot, and it plays well
>             with lots of Java APIs. Pretty slick, actually. I hear
>             Java 1.7 has some new dynamic features at the JVM level. I
>             always imagined Jython would run a lot faster if it took
>             advantage of them. Tal, do you know if there's any work on
>             that? Googling around a bit I'm not seeing much.
>
>             On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Joshua Herman
>             <zitterbewegung at gmail.com
>             <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.com>
>             <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.com
>             <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
>                At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware
>             that Jython
>                was that powerful I will have to play with it.
>
>                On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron
>             <tal.liron at threecrickets.com
>             <mailto:tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>             <mailto:tal.liron at threecrickets.com
>             <mailto:tal.liron at threecrickets.com>>>
>
>                wrote:
>             > There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the
>             JVM, and
>                has no GIL.
>             > It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If
>             you want
>                to do
>             > high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has
>                other advantages
>             > and disadvantages, of course.)
>             >
>             >
>             > I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to
>             create new
>                virtual
>             > machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X.
>                This shows a
>             > huge under-estimation of what it means to create a
>             robust, reliable,
>             > performative generic platform. Consider how many really
>             reliable
>                versions of
>             > the C standard library out there -- and how many decades
>             they
>                took to
>             > mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over
>             the code
>                and testing
>             > it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data
>                integrity, scoping
>             > (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other
>             huge (and
>                exciting)
>             > challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
>             >
>             >
>             > So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or
>             Parrot
>                come to be.
>             > Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm
>             equally
>                impressed
>             > by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual
>             machine from
>                scratch.
>             >
>             >
>             > But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own
>                unique history.
>             > Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6
>             years older
>                than Java,
>             > and the JVM would take another decade before reaching
>                prominence. JavaScript
>             > engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were
>                terrible, and Perl
>             > was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was
>                written where
>             > there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It
>                wasn't a matter
>             > of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch;
>                there was simply
>             > no choice.
>             >
>             >
>             > Right now, though, there are many good choices. People
>             like Rich
>                Hickey
>             > (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in
>             targeting
>                the JVM,
>             > although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If
>             Python
>                were invented
>             > today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython,"
>             instead of
>                trying to
>             > reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet,
>                really, in terms
>             > of the work required).
>             >
>             >
>             > One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects
>             like
>                PyPy and LLVM.
>             > These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet
>                another dynamic
>             > VM" does not.
>             >
>             >
>             > -Tal
>             >
>             >
>             > On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
>             >
>             >> I also have to quote:
>             >>
>             >> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory
>             concurrency is
>             >> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about
>             the GIL),
>                message
>             >> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal
>             overhead
>                (plus data
>             >> size/locality ones)."
>             >>
>             >>
>             >> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in
>             quite a
>                while. Dave's
>             >> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the
>                rudeness, or
>             >> not, is kinda besides the point.
>             >>
>             >> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal
>                overhead in
>             >> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user
>                expectation_ or
>             >> environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people
>                have some
>             >> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a
>                concept) in certain
>             >> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means
>                different things.
>             >>
>             >> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci
>                question than a
>             >> specific python question.  The problem set applies across
>                languages.
>             >>
>             >> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer
>                understands the
>             >> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the
>             toolbox?  Is
>                there an
>             >> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not
>             the ideal
>                solution?
>             >>
>             >> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the
>             toolbox
>                to deal
>             >> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>             >>
>             >>
>             >> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>             >>>
>             >>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches.
>                "Scalability" means
>             >>> different things at different levels of scale. A web
>             example: the
>             >>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the
>                architecture of
>             >>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same
>             problem field.
>             >>>
>             >>>
>             >>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at
>             certain
>                scales. For
>             >>> data structures that are mostly read, not written,
>                synchronization is
>             >>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput
>                possible in
>             >>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be
>                achieved by a
>             >>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message
>             passing
>                between
>             >>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare
>             (unless
>                you had a
>             >>> programming language that makes both approaches
>             transparent)
>                and so
>             >>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is
>             chosen. One
>             >>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that
>                MIGHT use the
>             >>> same data structures are actually performed on the
>             same node,
>                so that
>             >>> threading would be put to use.
>             >>>
>             >>>
>             >>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading,
>             too: "you
>                still need
>             >>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>                application to use
>             >>> it."
>             >>>
>             >>>
>             >>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing
>             right
>                is hard.
>             >>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard,
>                too. Good
>             >>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with
>                experience and a
>             >>> desire to learn.
>             >>>
>             >>>
>             >>> -Tal
>             >>>
>             >>>
>             >>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>             >>>
>             >>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that
>             message" very
>             >>>>> rarely have
>             >>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>             >>>>>
>             >>>>> Alex
>             >>>>>
>             >>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would
>             make a
>                statement
>             >>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing
>             Python and
>             >>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find
>                that almost
>             >>>> significant application is based on message passing
>             (e.g.,
>                MPI). This
>             >>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be
>             about the
>                only sane
>             >>>> way of scaling applications up to run across
>             thousands to tens of
>             >>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>             >>>>
>             >>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such
>             software
>                for large
>             >>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I
>             first
>                discovered
>             >>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done
>                performance
>             >>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>             >>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads
>             just didn't
>                scale or
>             >>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines
>             with as
>                few as 4
>             >>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for
>             numerics (i.e., no
>             >>>> Python or GIL).
>             >>>>
>             >>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you
>             still
>                need to
>             >>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>             application
>                to use it.
>             >>>>
>             >>>> Cheers,
>             >>>> Dave
>             >>>>
>             >>>>
>             >>>>
>             >>>>
>             >>>>
>             >>>>
>             >>>>
>             >>>>
>             >>>> _______________________________________________
>             >>>> Chicago mailing list
>             >>>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>             <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>
>             >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>             >>>
>             >>> _______________________________________________
>             >>> Chicago mailing list
>             >>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>             <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>
>             >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>             >>
>             >> _______________________________________________
>             >> Chicago mailing list
>             >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>             <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>
>             >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>             >
>             > _______________________________________________
>             > Chicago mailing list
>             > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>             <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>
>             > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>             >
>                _______________________________________________
>                Chicago mailing list
>             Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>             <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>
>             http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
>
>             -- 
>             blogs:
>             http://johnstoner.wordpress.com/
>             'In knowledge is power; in  wisdom, humility.'
>
>
>             _______________________________________________
>             Chicago mailing list
>             Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>             http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Chicago mailing list
>         Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>         http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your
>     right to say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
>     "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Chicago mailing list
>     Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>     http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From brianhray at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 14:04:48 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:04:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <CA+zxufVRLZE+xx0oD+xufE-o30WcOyNEsNq-_ZMhcMAuS26ZEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJgaE5R9vTokQYJPjFMB0wRvSyC+hEuPo9VZRyxkLTivLS48cQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<C42FE6AE-5A91-4CC4-BB16-C0C5F4E5FACD@me.com>
	<CAHzLg+afHJQjV=+JRJksghJuUCi6SsgkMgAXcQbMgtPfAJfS6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+zxufVRLZE+xx0oD+xufE-o30WcOyNEsNq-_ZMhcMAuS26ZEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38sZG61Zw57+oEDp73ZDRpbstbLtmtNGSXE7AWX6Z2pR3A@mail.gmail.com>

I am pretty open to looking at this as our next mentoring project.  I
do think we need to get a couple tasks done for the the chipy.org site
first.  Also, if we are going to take on an outside project like this
we should probably take a look at a couple and pick one perhaps after
some sort of vote.

Cheers, Brian

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Dan Schmidt <vapor.noob at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd love to help as well.
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Daniel Peters <danieltpeters at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I would love to help with this in whatever way you need.
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Jeremy McMillan
>> <jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 6 years ago I put together a Plone for ChicagoFairTrade.org under Nancy
>>> Jones. It was a good learning experience, and it really helped legitimize
>>> the fledgling organization. I was thinking of doing another site like that,
>>> sort of as a Django portfolio piece. I'd like to propose taking this on as a
>>> Chipy mentoring program project.
>>> Maybe "Project Mayhem?"
>>> I may try to do this myself, but this is work for any of Santa's helpers
>>> in July, so why not make it a Stone Soup type production?
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>> From: Nancy Jones <njones at chicagofairtrade.org>
>>> Subject: website needed for social enterprise
>>> Date: July 21, 2011 5:16:02 PM CDT
>>> To: Jeremy McMillan <aphor at me.com>, Fey <fey at pureedenspaproducts.com>
>>>
>>> Hi Jeremy,
>>> I'd like to introduce you to Fey Cruz who is the person I mentioned who
>>> is reviving the social enterprise, now named Pure Eden Spa Products.? They
>>> have just been up and running, reconnecting with old customers, but will
>>> really need a website by October to be able to take advantage of the holiday
>>> business.? I'm attaching a brief description of the project for you to pass
>>> around to find some volunteers.? Fey is available to talk over what they
>>> need on their site.? Any help would be appreciated!
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>> Website design needed for new social enterprise: Pure Eden Spa Products
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A ten year old social enterprise, The Enterprising Kitchen (made soaps
>>> and creams which provided work training for women) closed in December -
>>> crunched by debt.? Now a couple of those women are relaunching the project
>>> with the same mission and products, new name Pure Eden Spa Products.? They
>>> are a member of Chicago Fair Trade (we have a couple social enterprises as
>>> members) ??They need a website and don't have the funds for this now but of
>>> course they won't move far with their business without one.? Essentially,
>>> they'd need an e-commerce site.? They are reviving their old customer base
>>> but now all orders are via phone and sending email to part time staff.? They
>>> have a domain...with a page that says their site is coming soon. ?Questions?
>>> Contact fey at pureedenspaproducts.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nancy Jones
>>> Chicago Fair Trade
>>> 637 S. Dearborn 3rd fl
>>> Chicago, IL. 60605
>>> 312-212-1760
>>> www.chicagofairtrade.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
>
> --
> - Dan Schmidt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>



-- 

Brian Ray
(773) 669-7717

From brianherman at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 14:15:53 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:15:53 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38sZG61Zw57+oEDp73ZDRpbstbLtmtNGSXE7AWX6Z2pR3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJgaE5R9vTokQYJPjFMB0wRvSyC+hEuPo9VZRyxkLTivLS48cQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<C42FE6AE-5A91-4CC4-BB16-C0C5F4E5FACD@me.com>
	<CAHzLg+afHJQjV=+JRJksghJuUCi6SsgkMgAXcQbMgtPfAJfS6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+zxufVRLZE+xx0oD+xufE-o30WcOyNEsNq-_ZMhcMAuS26ZEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sZG61Zw57+oEDp73ZDRpbstbLtmtNGSXE7AWX6Z2pR3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wqS9UFkA8Dzi-XJiWt88R2uaSHUxOAz5C4aLtjZi8rvJQ@mail.gmail.com>

What happened to the website?


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:04 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am pretty open to looking at this as our next mentoring project.  I
> do think we need to get a couple tasks done for the the chipy.org site
> first.  Also, if we are going to take on an outside project like this
> we should probably take a look at a couple and pick one perhaps after
> some sort of vote.
>
> Cheers, Brian
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Dan Schmidt <vapor.noob at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'd love to help as well.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Daniel Peters <danieltpeters at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I would love to help with this in whatever way you need.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Jeremy McMillan
> >> <jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 6 years ago I put together a Plone for ChicagoFairTrade.org under Nancy
> >>> Jones. It was a good learning experience, and it really helped
> legitimize
> >>> the fledgling organization. I was thinking of doing another site like
> that,
> >>> sort of as a Django portfolio piece. I'd like to propose taking this on
> as a
> >>> Chipy mentoring program project.
> >>> Maybe "Project Mayhem?"
> >>> I may try to do this myself, but this is work for any of Santa's
> helpers
> >>> in July, so why not make it a Stone Soup type production?
> >>> Begin forwarded message:
> >>>
> >>> From: Nancy Jones <njones at chicagofairtrade.org>
> >>> Subject: website needed for social enterprise
> >>> Date: July 21, 2011 5:16:02 PM CDT
> >>> To: Jeremy McMillan <aphor at me.com>, Fey <fey at pureedenspaproducts.com>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Jeremy,
> >>> I'd like to introduce you to Fey Cruz who is the person I mentioned who
> >>> is reviving the social enterprise, now named Pure Eden Spa Products.
> They
> >>> have just been up and running, reconnecting with old customers, but
> will
> >>> really need a website by October to be able to take advantage of the
> holiday
> >>> business.  I'm attaching a brief description of the project for you to
> pass
> >>> around to find some volunteers.  Fey is available to talk over what
> they
> >>> need on their site.  Any help would be appreciated!
> >>> Nancy
> >>>
> >>> Website design needed for new social enterprise: Pure Eden Spa Products
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A ten year old social enterprise, The Enterprising Kitchen (made soaps
> >>> and creams which provided work training for women) closed in December -
> >>> crunched by debt.  Now a couple of those women are relaunching the
> project
> >>> with the same mission and products, new name Pure Eden Spa Products.
> They
> >>> are a member of Chicago Fair Trade (we have a couple social enterprises
> as
> >>> members)   They need a website and don't have the funds for this now
> but of
> >>> course they won't move far with their business without one.
> Essentially,
> >>> they'd need an e-commerce site.  They are reviving their old customer
> base
> >>> but now all orders are via phone and sending email to part time staff.
> They
> >>> have a domain...with a page that says their site is coming soon.
>  Questions?
> >>> Contact fey at pureedenspaproducts.com
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Nancy Jones
> >>> Chicago Fair Trade
> >>> 637 S. Dearborn 3rd fl
> >>> Chicago, IL. 60605
> >>> 312-212-1760
> >>> www.chicagofairtrade.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Chicago mailing list
> >>> Chicago at python.org
> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Dan Schmidt
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Ray
> (773) 669-7717
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From brianhray at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 14:28:16 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:28:16 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wqS9UFkA8Dzi-XJiWt88R2uaSHUxOAz5C4aLtjZi8rvJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJgaE5R9vTokQYJPjFMB0wRvSyC+hEuPo9VZRyxkLTivLS48cQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<C42FE6AE-5A91-4CC4-BB16-C0C5F4E5FACD@me.com>
	<CAHzLg+afHJQjV=+JRJksghJuUCi6SsgkMgAXcQbMgtPfAJfS6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+zxufVRLZE+xx0oD+xufE-o30WcOyNEsNq-_ZMhcMAuS26ZEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sZG61Zw57+oEDp73ZDRpbstbLtmtNGSXE7AWX6Z2pR3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqS9UFkA8Dzi-XJiWt88R2uaSHUxOAz5C4aLtjZi8rvJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38vUpe2YKz6KzNyAvEBx0n6Pj3uyChQQHsamE=gG0eig+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> What happened to the website?
>

Are you talking about your task or other's. Your task has been
reassigned due to lack of activity on your end. Did you want something
else? Ping me off the list.

The other tasks, some have been already implemented; others have been
reassigned; and some are about ready. Allan or myself could give more
details off the list.

-- 

Brian Ray

From brianhray at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 14:33:37 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:33:37 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38tNDrNsE9MkHLpD2rBbqFwaVX_uRM-sT-rwOXV6FAXOBA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com> wrote:
> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>
>
> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not care
> about speed benchmarks.
>
>

That is a fantastic question. Although, the benchmarks do not look so
bad is newer pypy (v 1.3?)...  however, I kinda always say pypy as the
pie in the sky type project personally.

I stole this link from kumar: http://speed.pypy.org/


-- 

Brian Ray

From brianherman at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 14:48:37 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:48:37 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38vUpe2YKz6KzNyAvEBx0n6Pj3uyChQQHsamE=gG0eig+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJgaE5R9vTokQYJPjFMB0wRvSyC+hEuPo9VZRyxkLTivLS48cQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<C42FE6AE-5A91-4CC4-BB16-C0C5F4E5FACD@me.com>
	<CAHzLg+afHJQjV=+JRJksghJuUCi6SsgkMgAXcQbMgtPfAJfS6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+zxufVRLZE+xx0oD+xufE-o30WcOyNEsNq-_ZMhcMAuS26ZEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sZG61Zw57+oEDp73ZDRpbstbLtmtNGSXE7AWX6Z2pR3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqS9UFkA8Dzi-XJiWt88R2uaSHUxOAz5C4aLtjZi8rvJQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38vUpe2YKz6KzNyAvEBx0n6Pj3uyChQQHsamE=gG0eig+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wrDsDtyPKxDax_mQ04HMDJq8qTjKiYGyEV9cGdz1GeZ1A@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, I wasnt sure what to do.


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > What happened to the website?
> >
>
> Are you talking about your task or other's. Your task has been
> reassigned due to lack of activity on your end. Did you want something
> else? Ping me off the list.
>
> The other tasks, some have been already implemented; others have been
> reassigned; and some are about ready. Allan or myself could give more
> details off the list.
>
> --
>
> Brian Ray
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 14:49:21 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:49:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wrDsDtyPKxDax_mQ04HMDJq8qTjKiYGyEV9cGdz1GeZ1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJgaE5R9vTokQYJPjFMB0wRvSyC+hEuPo9VZRyxkLTivLS48cQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<C42FE6AE-5A91-4CC4-BB16-C0C5F4E5FACD@me.com>
	<CAHzLg+afHJQjV=+JRJksghJuUCi6SsgkMgAXcQbMgtPfAJfS6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+zxufVRLZE+xx0oD+xufE-o30WcOyNEsNq-_ZMhcMAuS26ZEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sZG61Zw57+oEDp73ZDRpbstbLtmtNGSXE7AWX6Z2pR3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqS9UFkA8Dzi-XJiWt88R2uaSHUxOAz5C4aLtjZi8rvJQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38vUpe2YKz6KzNyAvEBx0n6Pj3uyChQQHsamE=gG0eig+w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrDsDtyPKxDax_mQ04HMDJq8qTjKiYGyEV9cGdz1GeZ1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wps3vTsSU1iiTGgaorSoO1orRA1bvPqvf_w2KZeE+pJuQ@mail.gmail.com>

I tried googling the second part of what you said and it just confused me.


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:48 AM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, I wasnt sure what to do.
>
>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > What happened to the website?
>> >
>>
>> Are you talking about your task or other's. Your task has been
>> reassigned due to lack of activity on your end. Did you want something
>> else? Ping me off the list.
>>
>> The other tasks, some have been already implemented; others have been
>> reassigned; and some are about ready. Allan or myself could give more
>> details off the list.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian Ray
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 14:52:56 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:52:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38tNDrNsE9MkHLpD2rBbqFwaVX_uRM-sT-rwOXV6FAXOBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
	<CANKg38tNDrNsE9MkHLpD2rBbqFwaVX_uRM-sT-rwOXV6FAXOBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wpUf=8fuQxP1cd3yD4uGqECTQB869V0oH6cNJ2WqozJaw@mail.gmail.com>

I just posted that.


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
> wrote:
> > For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
> >
> >
> > Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not care
> > about speed benchmarks.
> >
> >
>
> That is a fantastic question. Although, the benchmarks do not look so
> bad is newer pypy (v 1.3?)...  however, I kinda always say pypy as the
> pie in the sky type project personally.
>
> I stole this link from kumar: http://speed.pypy.org/
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Ray
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 14:53:25 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:53:25 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wpUf=8fuQxP1cd3yD4uGqECTQB869V0oH6cNJ2WqozJaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
	<CANKg38tNDrNsE9MkHLpD2rBbqFwaVX_uRM-sT-rwOXV6FAXOBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wpUf=8fuQxP1cd3yD4uGqECTQB869V0oH6cNJ2WqozJaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01woFk-Xtg2p2KDWXQ5nn9vLgMyPWcucNyTiu9fi2XEB_1A@mail.gmail.com>

And he wasnt talking about speed but the average user.


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:52 AM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:

> I just posted that.
>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>> wrote:
>> > For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>> >
>> >
>> > Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not care
>> > about speed benchmarks.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> That is a fantastic question. Although, the benchmarks do not look so
>> bad is newer pypy (v 1.3?)...  however, I kinda always say pypy as the
>> pie in the sky type project personally.
>>
>> I stole this link from kumar: http://speed.pypy.org/
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian Ray
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
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From shekay at pobox.com  Mon Jul 25 15:51:45 2011
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:51:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAFRnB2UbmFsiaPrg_6D__YdB2bD3Gcrex_KyV0QDcrHPBxaBRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2UbmFsiaPrg_6D__YdB2bD3Gcrex_KyV0QDcrHPBxaBRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_rZrc9EB3mQK53RaOgdW-aW0=ZeDGTw3JrPuXbqrQJeTXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll live :) ?Anyway, the point I was getting is not that a message passing
> system is not scalable, I've written code for Blue Gene/Ls so I know that
> message passing scales. ?But rather that, for problems for which
> shared-memory concurrency is appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain
> about the GIL), message passing will not be, because of the
> marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data size/locality ones).
> ALex

Are jobs for Blue Gene where there would be fairly sizable data
packets a rare use case? I don't know a lot about the typical use
cases, and am curious. I'm guessing the common case would be where
they would do analysis on things that could be split out, but am
curious about the size of the chunks of information.



-- 
sheila

From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Mon Jul 25 16:09:13 2011
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 09:09:13 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAHCs_rZrc9EB3mQK53RaOgdW-aW0=ZeDGTw3JrPuXbqrQJeTXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2UbmFsiaPrg_6D__YdB2bD3Gcrex_KyV0QDcrHPBxaBRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rZrc9EB3mQK53RaOgdW-aW0=ZeDGTw3JrPuXbqrQJeTXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B27DD0B6-B1C7-45F6-80B0-328034D68CE8@cs.depaul.edu>

Probably the single largest community in US using BlueGene machines is the lattice QCD community (in fact it was designed in collaboration with the lattice QCD group at Columbia University). The typical data structure consists of a 4D array (called lattice) of a 4-vector of SU(3) matrices (3x3 complex double precision) and a few other similar data structures that live on a site of the 4D lattice. A typical lattice has 96x64^3 sites for a total size of 96x64^3x4x9x2x8=14GB. The total memory usage is larger because of copies and other data structures. One of the 4D dimensions is stored locally the other 3D is distributed in parallel. Each iteration of the algorithm involved computing about ~2000 elementary floating point operations per lattice site and communicating the site structure (4x9x2x8bytes) to each of the 2^3 neighbor processors. The most efficient code can use up to 100-1000 CPU with a 50-80% efficiency. So if one computing node stores 96 sites it needs to perform ~20K FLOPs and 8 send and 8 recv for 96x4x9x2x8 bytes each. This type of computations are limited by latency more than bandwidth. Communication is always next neighbor (this is common for all algorithms that solve or are equivalent to solving differential equations numerically).



On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:51 AM, sheila miguez wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I'll live :)  Anyway, the point I was getting is not that a message passing
>> system is not scalable, I've written code for Blue Gene/Ls so I know that
>> message passing scales.  But rather that, for problems for which
>> shared-memory concurrency is appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain
>> about the GIL), message passing will not be, because of the
>> marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data size/locality ones).
>> ALex
> 
> Are jobs for Blue Gene where there would be fairly sizable data
> packets a rare use case? I don't know a lot about the typical use
> cases, and am curious. I'm guessing the common case would be where
> they would do analysis on things that could be split out, but am
> curious about the size of the chunks of information.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From shekay at pobox.com  Mon Jul 25 18:31:19 2011
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 11:31:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38sZG61Zw57+oEDp73ZDRpbstbLtmtNGSXE7AWX6Z2pR3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJgaE5R9vTokQYJPjFMB0wRvSyC+hEuPo9VZRyxkLTivLS48cQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<C42FE6AE-5A91-4CC4-BB16-C0C5F4E5FACD@me.com>
	<CAHzLg+afHJQjV=+JRJksghJuUCi6SsgkMgAXcQbMgtPfAJfS6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+zxufVRLZE+xx0oD+xufE-o30WcOyNEsNq-_ZMhcMAuS26ZEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38sZG61Zw57+oEDp73ZDRpbstbLtmtNGSXE7AWX6Z2pR3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_rYj3RWLVwCymgEEwVm9N9UwFENNJAtuV8N+0BejonzCMA@mail.gmail.com>

It would be nice to pick up a project like this to use with a PyStar
type of event. I am thinking of contacting someone who has been
involved in PyStar work to see if they could help facilitate an event
here, and maybe this site could be worked on in that matter?

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 7:04 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am pretty open to looking at this as our next mentoring project. ?I
> do think we need to get a couple tasks done for the the chipy.org site
> first. ?Also, if we are going to take on an outside project like this
> we should probably take a look at a couple and pick one perhaps after
> some sort of vote.
>
> Cheers, Brian
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Dan Schmidt <vapor.noob at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd love to help as well.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Daniel Peters <danieltpeters at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would love to help with this in whatever way you need.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Jeremy McMillan
>>> <jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 6 years ago I put together a Plone for ChicagoFairTrade.org under Nancy
>>>> Jones. It was a good learning experience, and it really helped legitimize
>>>> the fledgling organization. I was thinking of doing another site like that,
>>>> sort of as a Django portfolio piece. I'd like to propose taking this on as a
>>>> Chipy mentoring program project.
>>>> Maybe "Project Mayhem?"
>>>> I may try to do this myself, but this is work for any of Santa's helpers
>>>> in July, so why not make it a Stone Soup type production?
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>> From: Nancy Jones <njones at chicagofairtrade.org>
>>>> Subject: website needed for social enterprise
>>>> Date: July 21, 2011 5:16:02 PM CDT
>>>> To: Jeremy McMillan <aphor at me.com>, Fey <fey at pureedenspaproducts.com>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jeremy,
>>>> I'd like to introduce you to Fey Cruz who is the person I mentioned who
>>>> is reviving the social enterprise, now named Pure Eden Spa Products.? They
>>>> have just been up and running, reconnecting with old customers, but will
>>>> really need a website by October to be able to take advantage of the holiday
>>>> business.? I'm attaching a brief description of the project for you to pass
>>>> around to find some volunteers.? Fey is available to talk over what they
>>>> need on their site.? Any help would be appreciated!
>>>> Nancy
>>>>
>>>> Website design needed for new social enterprise: Pure Eden Spa Products
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A ten year old social enterprise, The Enterprising Kitchen (made soaps
>>>> and creams which provided work training for women) closed in December -
>>>> crunched by debt.? Now a couple of those women are relaunching the project
>>>> with the same mission and products, new name Pure Eden Spa Products.? They
>>>> are a member of Chicago Fair Trade (we have a couple social enterprises as
>>>> members) ??They need a website and don't have the funds for this now but of
>>>> course they won't move far with their business without one.? Essentially,
>>>> they'd need an e-commerce site.? They are reviving their old customer base
>>>> but now all orders are via phone and sending email to part time staff.? They
>>>> have a domain...with a page that says their site is coming soon. ?Questions?
>>>> Contact fey at pureedenspaproducts.com
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nancy Jones
>>>> Chicago Fair Trade
>>>> 637 S. Dearborn 3rd fl
>>>> Chicago, IL. 60605
>>>> 312-212-1760
>>>> www.chicagofairtrade.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Chicago mailing list
>>>> Chicago at python.org
>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Dan Schmidt
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Ray
> (773) 669-7717
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
sheila

From brianherman at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 20:02:11 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 13:02:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <B27DD0B6-B1C7-45F6-80B0-328034D68CE8@cs.depaul.edu>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2UbmFsiaPrg_6D__YdB2bD3Gcrex_KyV0QDcrHPBxaBRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rZrc9EB3mQK53RaOgdW-aW0=ZeDGTw3JrPuXbqrQJeTXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<B27DD0B6-B1C7-45F6-80B0-328034D68CE8@cs.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wpYyEcV0BbBx53rM3cGOd5vhHLmQjH7gCqS-hwPuhXDyw@mail.gmail.com>

Whoa massimo can you give a talk on that stuff?


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Massimo Di Pierro
<mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu>wrote:

> Probably the single largest community in US using BlueGene machines is the
> lattice QCD community (in fact it was designed in collaboration with the
> lattice QCD group at Columbia University). The typical data structure
> consists of a 4D array (called lattice) of a 4-vector of SU(3) matrices (3x3
> complex double precision) and a few other similar data structures that live
> on a site of the 4D lattice. A typical lattice has 96x64^3 sites for a total
> size of 96x64^3x4x9x2x8=14GB. The total memory usage is larger because of
> copies and other data structures. One of the 4D dimensions is stored locally
> the other 3D is distributed in parallel. Each iteration of the algorithm
> involved computing about ~2000 elementary floating point operations per
> lattice site and communicating the site structure (4x9x2x8bytes) to each of
> the 2^3 neighbor processors. The most efficient code can use up to 100-1000
> CPU with a 50-80% efficiency. So if one computing node stores 96 sites it
> needs to perform ~20
>  K FLOPs and 8 send and 8 recv for 96x4x9x2x8 bytes each. This type of
> computations are limited by latency more than bandwidth. Communication is
> always next neighbor (this is common for all algorithms that solve or are
> equivalent to solving differential equations numerically).
>
>
>
> On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:51 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I'll live :)  Anyway, the point I was getting is not that a message
> passing
> >> system is not scalable, I've written code for Blue Gene/Ls so I know
> that
> >> message passing scales.  But rather that, for problems for which
> >> shared-memory concurrency is appropriate (read: the valid cases to
> complain
> >> about the GIL), message passing will not be, because of the
> >> marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data size/locality ones).
> >> ALex
> >
> > Are jobs for Blue Gene where there would be fairly sizable data
> > packets a rare use case? I don't know a lot about the typical use
> > cases, and am curious. I'm guessing the common case would be where
> > they would do analysis on things that could be split out, but am
> > curious about the size of the chunks of information.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > sheila
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Mon Jul 25 20:37:24 2011
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 13:37:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wpYyEcV0BbBx53rM3cGOd5vhHLmQjH7gCqS-hwPuhXDyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2UbmFsiaPrg_6D__YdB2bD3Gcrex_KyV0QDcrHPBxaBRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rZrc9EB3mQK53RaOgdW-aW0=ZeDGTw3JrPuXbqrQJeTXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<B27DD0B6-B1C7-45F6-80B0-328034D68CE8@cs.depaul.edu>
	<CAJD01wpYyEcV0BbBx53rM3cGOd5vhHLmQjH7gCqS-hwPuhXDyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BF67511A-70E0-43A7-9E34-44ABEDEC4694@cs.depaul.edu>

I can (that is what I worked on most of my life) but it would be a physics talk not a python talk therefore not sure if chipy is the appropriate venue.

Massimo

On Jul 25, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Brian Herman wrote:

> Whoa massimo can you give a talk on that stuff?
> 
> 
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
> 
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Probably the single largest community in US using BlueGene machines is the lattice QCD community (in fact it was designed in collaboration with the lattice QCD group at Columbia University). The typical data structure consists of a 4D array (called lattice) of a 4-vector of SU(3) matrices (3x3 complex double precision) and a few other similar data structures that live on a site of the 4D lattice. A typical lattice has 96x64^3 sites for a total size of 96x64^3x4x9x2x8=14GB. The total memory usage is larger because of copies and other data structures. One of the 4D dimensions is stored locally the other 3D is distributed in parallel. Each iteration of the algorithm involved computing about ~2000 elementary floating point operations per lattice site and communicating the site structure (4x9x2x8bytes) to each of the 2^3 neighbor processors. The most efficient code can use up to 100-1000 CPU with a 50-80% efficiency. So if one computing node stores 96 sites it needs to perform ~20
>  K FLOPs and 8 send and 8 recv for 96x4x9x2x8 bytes each. This type of computations are limited by latency more than bandwidth. Communication is always next neighbor (this is common for all algorithms that solve or are equivalent to solving differential equations numerically).
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:51 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'll live :)  Anyway, the point I was getting is not that a message passing
> >> system is not scalable, I've written code for Blue Gene/Ls so I know that
> >> message passing scales.  But rather that, for problems for which
> >> shared-memory concurrency is appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain
> >> about the GIL), message passing will not be, because of the
> >> marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data size/locality ones).
> >> ALex
> >
> > Are jobs for Blue Gene where there would be fairly sizable data
> > packets a rare use case? I don't know a lot about the typical use
> > cases, and am curious. I'm guessing the common case would be where
> > they would do analysis on things that could be split out, but am
> > curious about the size of the chunks of information.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > sheila
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From shekay at pobox.com  Mon Jul 25 20:49:09 2011
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 13:49:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <B27DD0B6-B1C7-45F6-80B0-328034D68CE8@cs.depaul.edu>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2UbmFsiaPrg_6D__YdB2bD3Gcrex_KyV0QDcrHPBxaBRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rZrc9EB3mQK53RaOgdW-aW0=ZeDGTw3JrPuXbqrQJeTXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<B27DD0B6-B1C7-45F6-80B0-328034D68CE8@cs.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_rbcj9jhspVUQ1VLxRD0xAuz06yTPwStgEm0MqQUr1Nsdg@mail.gmail.com>

Help me understand how much data is being communicated among nodes
during computations. A data structure representing a lattice can get
up to 14GB, but how much of that is passed among nodes?

I work on things that pass a lot of messages around, and I've seen 8MB
messages on the tail end of what I work with. :)

(I'm sure there are some bigger messages elsewhere in the company, I'm
only talking about things I've directly worked with)

I'm not trying to derail, I'm asking because I want to get an idea of
where people would think passing messages becomes limiting with
respect to the size of the messages.


On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Massimo Di Pierro
<mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Probably the single largest community in US using BlueGene machines is the lattice QCD community (in fact it was designed in collaboration with the lattice QCD group at Columbia University). The typical data structure consists of a 4D array (called lattice) of a 4-vector of SU(3) matrices (3x3 complex double precision) and a few other similar data structures that live on a site of the 4D lattice. A typical lattice has 96x64^3 sites for a total size of 96x64^3x4x9x2x8=14GB. The total memory usage is larger because of copies and other data structures. One of the 4D dimensions is stored locally the other 3D is distributed in parallel. Each iteration of the algorithm involved computing about ~2000 elementary floating point operations per lattice site and communicating the site structure (4x9x2x8bytes) to each of the 2^3 neighbor processors. The most efficient code can use up to 100-1000 CPU with a 50-80% efficiency. So if one computing node stores 96 sites it needs to perform ~20
> ?K FLOPs and 8 send and 8 recv for 96x4x9x2x8 bytes each. This type of computations are limited by latency more than bandwidth. Communication is always next neighbor (this is common for all algorithms that solve or are equivalent to solving differential equations numerically).
>
>
>
> On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:51 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll live :) ?Anyway, the point I was getting is not that a message passing
>>> system is not scalable, I've written code for Blue Gene/Ls so I know that
>>> message passing scales. ?But rather that, for problems for which
>>> shared-memory concurrency is appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain
>>> about the GIL), message passing will not be, because of the
>>> marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data size/locality ones).
>>> ALex
>>
>> Are jobs for Blue Gene where there would be fairly sizable data
>> packets a rare use case? I don't know a lot about the typical use
>> cases, and am curious. I'm guessing the common case would be where
>> they would do analysis on things that could be split out, but am
>> curious about the size of the chunks of information.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> sheila
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
sheila

From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Mon Jul 25 22:23:08 2011
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:23:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAHCs_rbcj9jhspVUQ1VLxRD0xAuz06yTPwStgEm0MqQUr1Nsdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2UbmFsiaPrg_6D__YdB2bD3Gcrex_KyV0QDcrHPBxaBRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rZrc9EB3mQK53RaOgdW-aW0=ZeDGTw3JrPuXbqrQJeTXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<B27DD0B6-B1C7-45F6-80B0-328034D68CE8@cs.depaul.edu>
	<CAHCs_rbcj9jhspVUQ1VLxRD0xAuz06yTPwStgEm0MqQUr1Nsdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D772D0DB-1932-418F-BCB3-F785628060C1@cs.depaul.edu>

The attached program is an oversimplification (and not efficient at all because of the GIL). In reality the mesh if 3d or 4d, not 1d. The phi[i], rho[i] are not float but other data structures. The send/receive is done using MPI. The parallelization is not done using threads but using processes, one per CPU. The entire data is communicated at every iteration but every send/recv only communicates a fraction of the data. Hope it makes sense.

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On Jul 25, 2011, at 1:49 PM, sheila miguez wrote:

> Help me understand how much data is being communicated among nodes
> during computations. A data structure representing a lattice can get
> up to 14GB, but how much of that is passed among nodes?
> 
> I work on things that pass a lot of messages around, and I've seen 8MB
> messages on the tail end of what I work with. :)
> 
> (I'm sure there are some bigger messages elsewhere in the company, I'm
> only talking about things I've directly worked with)
> 
> I'm not trying to derail, I'm asking because I want to get an idea of
> where people would think passing messages becomes limiting with
> respect to the size of the messages.
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Massimo Di Pierro
> <mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> Probably the single largest community in US using BlueGene machines is the lattice QCD community (in fact it was designed in collaboration with the lattice QCD group at Columbia University). The typical data structure consists of a 4D array (called lattice) of a 4-vector of SU(3) matrices (3x3 complex double precision) and a few other similar data structures that live on a site of the 4D lattice. A typical lattice has 96x64^3 sites for a total size of 96x64^3x4x9x2x8=14GB. The total memory usage is larger because of copies and other data structures. One of the 4D dimensions is stored locally the other 3D is distributed in parallel. Each iteration of the algorithm involved computing about ~2000 elementary floating point operations per lattice site and communicating the site structure (4x9x2x8bytes) to each of the 2^3 neighbor processors. The most efficient code can use up to 100-1000 CPU with a 50-80% efficiency. So if one computing node stores 96 sites it needs to perform ~20
>>  K FLOPs and 8 send and 8 recv for 96x4x9x2x8 bytes each. This type of computations are limited by latency more than bandwidth. Communication is always next neighbor (this is common for all algorithms that solve or are equivalent to solving differential equations numerically).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:51 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I'll live :)  Anyway, the point I was getting is not that a message passing
>>>> system is not scalable, I've written code for Blue Gene/Ls so I know that
>>>> message passing scales.  But rather that, for problems for which
>>>> shared-memory concurrency is appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain
>>>> about the GIL), message passing will not be, because of the
>>>> marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data size/locality ones).
>>>> ALex
>>> 
>>> Are jobs for Blue Gene where there would be fairly sizable data
>>> packets a rare use case? I don't know a lot about the typical use
>>> cases, and am curious. I'm guessing the common case would be where
>>> they would do analysis on things that could be split out, but am
>>> curious about the size of the chunks of information.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> sheila
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From tal.liron at threecrickets.com  Mon Jul 25 22:37:23 2011
From: tal.liron at threecrickets.com (Tal Liron)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:37:23 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E2DD403.5060500@threecrickets.com>

One more link of interest by Armin Rigo, re: discussing GIL in various 
Python runtimes (yes, PyPy still has a GIL and will have one for a very 
long time):


http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2011/06/global-interpreter-lock-or-how-to-kill.html


If Beazley won't do it, you can pay PyPy to. :)


My opinion is that STM may not be the best fit for Python. As Rigo 
writes, everything in Python would have to be rewritten to implement 
STM, and "everything" really means everything.


STM is used to tremendous effect in Clojure, but it's an explicit 
feature of the language that you turn on when transactions make sense. 
Since Python has no such linguistic concept (nor the persistent data 
structures the make it so natural, it would mean transactions 
everywhere, all the time, behind the scenes. I agree with Rigo that this 
might end up being worse than the GIL.


-Tal


From carl at personnelware.com  Mon Jul 25 22:42:18 2011
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:42:18 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <BF67511A-70E0-43A7-9E34-44ABEDEC4694@cs.depaul.edu>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<CAN6vQqukGJ-DjecK3xSYk-LAL_kqDL2oEEy5EH-v7Bw6irJafw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2UbmFsiaPrg_6D__YdB2bD3Gcrex_KyV0QDcrHPBxaBRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rZrc9EB3mQK53RaOgdW-aW0=ZeDGTw3JrPuXbqrQJeTXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<B27DD0B6-B1C7-45F6-80B0-328034D68CE8@cs.depaul.edu>
	<CAJD01wpYyEcV0BbBx53rM3cGOd5vhHLmQjH7gCqS-hwPuhXDyw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BF67511A-70E0-43A7-9E34-44ABEDEC4694@cs.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSh5rU6=y3rsUs_WbtGtCcU=5bnJr2VZKL1K=axixc8GKw@mail.gmail.com>

ACM seems like a good venu. in October, cuz that is the next meeting I
stand a chance of attending.

Or I think there is a High Performance Computing group.  and if not,
maybe I should make one, just so we can all go see Mas talk, and I
would be sure I can make it.

Hmm...  This thread has 3 or 4 potential presentations.

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Massimo Di Pierro
<mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> I can (that is what I worked on most of my life) but it would be a physics
> talk not a python talk therefore not sure if chipy is the appropriate venue.
>
> Massimo
>
> On Jul 25, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Brian Herman wrote:
>
> Whoa massimo can you give a talk on that stuff?
>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu>
> wrote:
>>
>> Probably the single largest community in US using BlueGene machines is the
>> lattice QCD community (in fact it was designed in collaboration with the
>> lattice QCD group at Columbia University). The typical data structure
>> consists of a 4D array (called lattice) of a 4-vector of SU(3) matrices (3x3
>> complex double precision) and a few other similar data structures that live
>> on a site of the 4D lattice. A typical lattice has 96x64^3 sites for a total
>> size of 96x64^3x4x9x2x8=14GB. The total memory usage is larger because of
>> copies and other data structures. One of the 4D dimensions is stored locally
>> the other 3D is distributed in parallel. Each iteration of the algorithm
>> involved computing about ~2000 elementary floating point operations per
>> lattice site and communicating the site structure (4x9x2x8bytes) to each of
>> the 2^3 neighbor processors. The most efficient code can use up to 100-1000
>> CPU with a 50-80% efficiency. So if one computing node stores 96 sites it
>> needs to perform ~20
>> ?K FLOPs and 8 send and 8 recv for 96x4x9x2x8 bytes each. This type of
>> computations are limited by latency more than bandwidth. Communication is
>> always next neighbor (this is common for all algorithms that solve or are
>> equivalent to solving differential equations numerically).
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:51 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'll live :) ?Anyway, the point I was getting is not that a message
>> >> passing
>> >> system is not scalable, I've written code for Blue Gene/Ls so I know
>> >> that
>> >> message passing scales. ?But rather that, for problems for which
>> >> shared-memory concurrency is appropriate (read: the valid cases to
>> >> complain
>> >> about the GIL), message passing will not be, because of the
>> >> marshal/unmarshal overhead (plus data size/locality ones).
>> >> ALex
>> >
>> > Are jobs for Blue Gene where there would be fairly sizable data
>> > packets a rare use case? I don't know a lot about the typical use
>> > cases, and am curious. I'm guessing the common case would be where
>> > they would do analysis on things that could be split out, but am
>> > curious about the size of the chunks of information.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > sheila
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>



-- 
Carl K

From d-beazley at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jul 25 23:20:36 2011
From: d-beazley at sbcglobal.net (David Beazley)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 16:20:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
Message-ID: <FFA5A62D-9575-4B00-84F4-043A0F015476@sbcglobal.net>

Adam,

I'm not sure why, but my response to your message somehow got lost over the weekend (at least it never seemed to show up on the mailing list).

I just wanted to say that I apologize for the harsh tone I used in my message.  I know Alex Gaynor personally and think he's one of the brightest guys around.  As such, I tend to give him hell--especially if he makes a crazy comment about something.  Alas, I probably could have phrased my response a bit better to make that apparent.  Again, very sorry about that. Peace.

Cheers,
Dave


> From: Adam Jenkins <emperorcezar at gmail.com>
> 
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, David Beazley <dxb251 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement that ignorant.
> 
> This statement is rude, inappropriate, and a personal attack. There
> are many other ways you could have said it. Including, "You may find
> that", etc. This is a technical list, not and excuse to be rude to
> others because of their opinions.
> 
> I say this without taking into account the technical merit of either
> of your opinions.
> 

From gretchen at aspaceapart.net  Tue Jul 26 00:33:52 2011
From: gretchen at aspaceapart.net (Gretchen Goodrich)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 17:33:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [Employment Opportunity] Django/Python developer needed
	at Excelerate Labs
In-Reply-To: <FFA5A62D-9575-4B00-84F4-043A0F015476@sbcglobal.net>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<FFA5A62D-9575-4B00-84F4-043A0F015476@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <001e01cc4b1a$f0eabbd0$d2c03370$@net>

Hi all, throwing this one out there...Brantley Harris is our lead programmer
and we need another dev to get us to Demo Day.  This would be part-time, in
office at Excelerate.  Hope to hear from ya!

Gretchen Goodrich
A Space Apart
(773) 931-6884

A Space Apart is a seed-funded startup company with an established team, and
we're looking for a web developer to help get our product to Demo Day
(August 31st).  We are looking for innovators who love to solve problems and
create awesome, fast, easy to use apps.  The ideal candidate will have
Django and Python skills and would also be comfortable working with
HTML/CSS/JavaScript and Git.

A Space Apart is an event platform that uses social graphs to help people
meet each other at meetings and conferences.  In acres of event space and
thousands of people, it's a roll of the dice that you'll make the right
connections.  A Space Apart narrows that crowded field down to a shortlist.

Some things you might do during your day:

    * Program new website features in Python
    * Take HTML templates and incorporate them into Django templates
    * Write unit and functional tests
    * Participate in agile development using Pivotal Tracker
    * Implement APIs for various social sites (like LinkedIn, Klout and
Eventbrite)
    * Code JavaScript interactions
    * Participate in the design process
    * Take a Photoshop design, and turn it into HTML/CSS
    * Problem solve and learn new technologies, collaborate closely with
colleagues


You'll be working in an open and energized incubator environment (Excelerate
Labs) with a highly motivated team.  This is a contract-for-hire position
with a negotiable hourly rate. 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5828 (20110128) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 


From emperorcezar at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 00:49:34 2011
From: emperorcezar at gmail.com (Adam Jenkins)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 17:49:34 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <FFA5A62D-9575-4B00-84F4-043A0F015476@sbcglobal.net>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<FFA5A62D-9575-4B00-84F4-043A0F015476@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <CAN6vQqsyTdD7B5gGaeuBxKPGGtau8brpNGbOQRh0zTAezkeGLA@mail.gmail.com>

Oh. If you personally know him. Then go ahead and rib him. All is good
between drinking buddies. :)

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 4:20 PM, David Beazley <d-beazley at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Adam,
>
> I'm not sure why, but my response to your message somehow got lost over the weekend (at least it never seemed to show up on the mailing list).
>
> I just wanted to say that I apologize for the harsh tone I used in my message. ?I know Alex Gaynor personally and think he's one of the brightest guys around. ?As such, I tend to give him hell--especially if he makes a crazy comment about something. ?Alas, I probably could have phrased my response a bit better to make that apparent. ?Again, very sorry about that. Peace.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>
>> From: Adam Jenkins <emperorcezar at gmail.com>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, David Beazley <dxb251 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement that ignorant.
>>
>> This statement is rude, inappropriate, and a personal attack. There
>> are many other ways you could have said it. Including, "You may find
>> that", etc. This is a technical list, not and excuse to be rude to
>> others because of their opinions.
>>
>> I say this without taking into account the technical merit of either
>> of your opinions.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From toba at des.truct.org  Tue Jul 26 06:54:38 2011
From: toba at des.truct.org (Eric Stein)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 23:54:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
Message-ID: <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>

Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!

Eric

On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>
>
> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
> care about speed benchmarks.
>
>
> On 07/24/2011 10:13 PM, Brian Herman wrote:
>
>> +1 for PYPY
>>
>>
>> Arigatou gozaimasu,
>> (Thank you very much)
>> Brian Herman
>>
>> brianjherman.com <http://brianjherman.com>
>> brianherman at acm.org <mailto:brianherman at acm.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com
>> <mailto:alex.gaynor at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Tal Liron
>> <tal.liron at threecrickets.com <mailto:tal.liron at threecrickets.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> JVM 7 will have some neat features, but they haven't been
>> stabilized yet, and at this point it's mostly experimentation.
>> Fact is, even though JVM 6 has been out for a few years
>> already, many deployments still stick to JVM 5. It does the
>> job, and "upgrades" have their costs, money and otherwise. I
>> choose JVM for my project not because of speed, but because of
>> the maturity of the platform, which includes administration
>> tools, monitoring, security, and several best-in-class 3rd
>> party libraries. It's nice to know that performance is very
>> high up there if I really need it (at which case I just "drop
>> down" to Java, rather than use a dynamic JVM language).
>>
>>
>> The whole Jython codebase could use some help... it's even
>> messier than CPython's, if that's possible. There's a lot of
>> room for optimization, even before igniting JVM 7 shortcuts,
>> though it will surely be at the cost of regressions and
>> stability.Luckily, there's a decent test suite, which makes it
>> easy to experiment for. The Jython community would LOVE help,
>> and it doesn't have to be just in terms of coding. Their
>> recent big project was to move the whole codebase from
>> Subversion to Mercurial. Another big item on the todo list is
>> to get up to date with Python 3. (Jython = Python 2.5
>> formally, though it has quite a few 2.6 additions.)
>>
>>
>> Jython also has some nice collaboration with JRuby, including
>> people who work on both projects. But, what I would make me
>> happier is if there was real code sharing, allowing for a
>> dynamic core that would work well for both projects.
>>
>>
>> Anyway. I guess I'm always confused by what people mean by
>> "faster." What are you trying to code for, exactly? Where is
>> your bottleneck? What is your funding? It's more likely that
>> (although not necessarily) what you really are looking for is
>> "scalability," for which shear computational performance is
>> likely not the real issue. If money is coming, getting more
>> expensive, faster machines may do the trick better than any
>> JVM 7 optimization.
>>
>>
>> If you just want a command line tool that starts fast, JVM is
>> *not* where you want to go. It has notoriously slow startup,
>> for exactly those mechanisms that make it perform so well as
>> it runs.
>>
>>
>> Another way to look at "faster" is as a way to save money.
>> Weird, huh? But consider Facebook's HipHop project. (Sorry
>> that all of my examples are from the web arena; it's where I
>> mostly work these days.) The issue was not that PHP was
>> "slow," it was that when you have 1,000 machines running at
>> 90% CPU, a faster PHP runtime means that you can use 800
>> machines, instead, for the same workload. A few orders of
>> magnitude forward, and savings can be enormous.
>>
>>
>> If you have a project with 1,000 machines running at 90% CPU,
>> please hire me! It may be very worthwhile for you to create a
>> more performant Python runtime (JVM-based or not), and I'd
>> love to be paid to do that. :) And it would also make a lot of
>> irrational Python speed freaks happy.
>>
>>
>> -Tal
>>
>>
>> <minor derail>
>> No offense, but if you want a more performant Python runtime, it's
>> here today: http://speed.pypy.org/, no need to start from scratch.
>> </minor derail>
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/24/2011 06:18 PM, John Stoner wrote:
>>
>> Jython's not bad. I've used it a lot, and it plays well
>> with lots of Java APIs. Pretty slick, actually. I hear
>> Java 1.7 has some new dynamic features at the JVM level. I
>> always imagined Jython would run a lot faster if it took
>> advantage of them. Tal, do you know if there's any work on
>> that? Googling around a bit I'm not seeing much.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Joshua Herman
>> <zitterbewegung at gmail.com
>> <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.com
>> <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>
>> At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware
>> that Jython
>> was that powerful I will have to play with it.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron
>> <tal.liron at threecrickets.com
>> <mailto:tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>> <mailto:tal.liron at threecrickets.com
>> <mailto:tal.liron at threecrickets.com>>>
>>
>> wrote:
>> > There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the
>> JVM, and
>> has no GIL.
>> > It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If
>> you want
>> to do
>> > high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has
>> other advantages
>> > and disadvantages, of course.)
>> >
>> >
>> > I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to
>> create new
>> virtual
>> > machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X.
>> This shows a
>> > huge under-estimation of what it means to create a
>> robust, reliable,
>> > performative generic platform. Consider how many really
>> reliable
>> versions of
>> > the C standard library out there -- and how many decades
>> they
>> took to
>> > mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over
>> the code
>> and testing
>> > it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data
>> integrity, scoping
>> > (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other
>> huge (and
>> exciting)
>> > challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
>> >
>> >
>> > So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or
>> Parrot
>> come to be.
>> > Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm
>> equally
>> impressed
>> > by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual
>> machine from
>> scratch.
>> >
>> >
>> > But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own
>> unique history.
>> > Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6
>> years older
>> than Java,
>> > and the JVM would take another decade before reaching
>> prominence. JavaScript
>> > engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were
>> terrible, and Perl
>> > was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was
>> written where
>> > there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It
>> wasn't a matter
>> > of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch;
>> there was simply
>> > no choice.
>> >
>> >
>> > Right now, though, there are many good choices. People
>> like Rich
>> Hickey
>> > (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in
>> targeting
>> the JVM,
>> > although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If
>> Python
>> were invented
>> > today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython,"
>> instead of
>> trying to
>> > reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet,
>> really, in terms
>> > of the work required).
>> >
>> >
>> > One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects
>> like
>> PyPy and LLVM.
>> > These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet
>> another dynamic
>> > VM" does not.
>> >
>> >
>> > -Tal
>> >
>> >
>> > On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
>> >
>> >> I also have to quote:
>> >>
>> >> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory
>> concurrency is
>> >> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about
>> the GIL),
>> message
>> >> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal
>> overhead
>> (plus data
>> >> size/locality ones)."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in
>> quite a
>> while. Dave's
>> >> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the
>> rudeness, or
>> >> not, is kinda besides the point.
>> >>
>> >> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal
>> overhead in
>> >> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user
>> expectation_ or
>> >> environmental constraints apply. I think that's why people
>> have some
>> >> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a
>> concept) in certain
>> >> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means
>> different things.
>> >>
>> >> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci
>> question than a
>> >> specific python question. The problem set applies across
>> languages.
>> >>
>> >> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer
>> understands the
>> >> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the
>> toolbox? Is
>> there an
>> >> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not
>> the ideal
>> solution?
>> >>
>> >> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the
>> toolbox
>> to deal
>> >> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches.
>> "Scalability" means
>> >>> different things at different levels of scale. A web
>> example: the
>> >>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the
>> architecture of
>> >>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same
>> problem field.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at
>> certain
>> scales. For
>> >>> data structures that are mostly read, not written,
>> synchronization is
>> >>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput
>> possible in
>> >>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be
>> achieved by a
>> >>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message
>> passing
>> between
>> >>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare
>> (unless
>> you had a
>> >>> programming language that makes both approaches
>> transparent)
>> and so
>> >>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is
>> chosen. One
>> >>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that
>> MIGHT use the
>> >>> same data structures are actually performed on the
>> same node,
>> so that
>> >>> threading would be put to use.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading,
>> too: "you
>> still need
>> >>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>> application to use
>> >>> it."
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing
>> right
>> is hard.
>> >>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard,
>> too. Good
>> >>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with
>> experience and a
>> >>> desire to learn.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -Tal
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that
>> message" very
>> >>>>> rarely have
>> >>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Alex
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would
>> make a
>> statement
>> >>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing
>> Python and
>> >>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find
>> that almost
>> >>>> significant application is based on message passing
>> (e.g.,
>> MPI). This
>> >>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be
>> about the
>> only sane
>> >>>> way of scaling applications up to run across
>> thousands to tens of
>> >>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such
>> software
>> for large
>> >>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I
>> first
>> discovered
>> >>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done
>> performance
>> >>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>> >>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads
>> just didn't
>> scale or
>> >>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines
>> with as
>> few as 4
>> >>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for
>> numerics (i.e., no
>> >>>> Python or GIL).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you
>> still
>> need to
>> >>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>> application
>> to use it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Dave
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Chicago mailing list
>> >>>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>
>> >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Chicago mailing list
>> >>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>
>> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chicago mailing list
>> >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>
>> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- blogs:
>> http://johnstoner.wordpress.com/
>> 'In knowledge is power; in wisdom, humility.'
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your
>> right to say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
>> "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From shekay at pobox.com  Tue Jul 26 14:45:04 2011
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:45:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>

different analogy

Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
be bothered with how their code is compiled.

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein <toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
>
> Eric
>
> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>>
>>
>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
>> care about speed benchmarks.
>>
[snip]


-- 
sheila

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 14:48:04 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 05:48:04 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=-XNhb33YzPsXjTMrh1bdyNudoYB7kJKyNC_WKC5GebA@mail.gmail.com>

I would sell pypy to people that want to write domain specific languages in
python
On Jul 26, 2011 7:46 AM, "sheila miguez" <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> different analogy
>
> Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
> be bothered with how their code is compiled.
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein <toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
>> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
>> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>>>
>>>
>>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
>>> care about speed benchmarks.
>>>
> [snip]
>
>
> --
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 15:00:02 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 06:00:02 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1z=-XNhb33YzPsXjTMrh1bdyNudoYB7kJKyNC_WKC5GebA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=-XNhb33YzPsXjTMrh1bdyNudoYB7kJKyNC_WKC5GebA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zmuSpx34t+Ks2Qy0LzO9-rYrdJ2Uxt66SvJjeiW67ObKg@mail.gmail.com>

http://fmeyer.org/en/writing-a-DSL-with-python.html
I don't need speed really. What I need is the whole python runtime for me to
hack on.
On Jul 26, 2011 7:48 AM, "Joshua Herman" <zitterbewegung at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would sell pypy to people that want to write domain specific languages
in
> python
> On Jul 26, 2011 7:46 AM, "sheila miguez" <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>> different analogy
>>
>> Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
>> be bothered with how their code is compiled.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein <toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
>>> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
>>> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
>>>> care about speed benchmarks.
>>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>
>> --
>> sheila
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From tal.liron at threecrickets.com  Tue Jul 26 15:37:00 2011
From: tal.liron at threecrickets.com (Tal Liron)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:37:00 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>

Who would you sell ChiPy to? Assume someone who doesn't care about 
computing.

On 07/26/2011 07:45 AM, sheila miguez wrote:

> different analogy
>
> Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
> be bothered with how their code is compiled.
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein<toba at des.truct.org>  wrote:
>> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
>> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>>>
>>>
>>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
>>> care about speed benchmarks.
>>>
> [snip]
>
>


From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 16:02:49 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:02:49 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=XMMdcWZfeCJwSxs+Zv-9DKbRUpmCRGfja50FUF=8RqQ@mail.gmail.com>

I would sell ChiPy to a bunch of business people. I would turn it into
an incubator for python web apps.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 8:37 AM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com> wrote:
> Who would you sell ChiPy to? Assume someone who doesn't care about
> computing.
>
> On 07/26/2011 07:45 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
>
>> different analogy
>>
>> Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
>> be bothered with how their code is compiled.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein<toba at des.truct.org> ?wrote:
>>>
>>> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
>>> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
>>>> care about speed benchmarks.
>>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From shekay at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 16:12:05 2011
From: shekay at gmail.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:12:05 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_ra2A40KG4szx5XwXyz=pEU9oKiPMMG_rVSqZodvS5pnuQ@mail.gmail.com>

That analogy is even less apt than the chocolate one.
On Jul 26, 2011 8:36 AM, "Tal Liron" <tal.liron at threecrickets.com> wrote:
> Who would you sell ChiPy to? Assume someone who doesn't care about
> computing.
>
> On 07/26/2011 07:45 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
>
>> different analogy
>>
>> Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
>> be bothered with how their code is compiled.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein<toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
>>> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
>>> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
>>>> care about speed benchmarks.
>>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 16:19:52 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:19:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAHCs_ra2A40KG4szx5XwXyz=pEU9oKiPMMG_rVSqZodvS5pnuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
	<CAHCs_ra2A40KG4szx5XwXyz=pEU9oKiPMMG_rVSqZodvS5pnuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wr0-NJy+2XF9Sk63aNUY218_q1m6WvM=LcNBmSDWgf6kw@mail.gmail.com>

Brother do this on your brain.
sudo apt-get install good-analogies



Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 9:12 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at gmail.com> wrote:

> That analogy is even less apt than the chocolate one.
> On Jul 26, 2011 8:36 AM, "Tal Liron" <tal.liron at threecrickets.com> wrote:
> > Who would you sell ChiPy to? Assume someone who doesn't care about
> > computing.
> >
> > On 07/26/2011 07:45 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
> >
> >> different analogy
> >>
> >> Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
> >> be bothered with how their code is compiled.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein<toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
> >>> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
> >>> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
> >>>
> >>> Eric
> >>>
> >>> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
> >>>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
> >>>> care about speed benchmarks.
> >>>>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 16:20:34 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:20:34 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAHCs_ra2A40KG4szx5XwXyz=pEU9oKiPMMG_rVSqZodvS5pnuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
	<CAHCs_ra2A40KG4szx5XwXyz=pEU9oKiPMMG_rVSqZodvS5pnuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=u-mukSA9Mt2g78-mtKRsf68p-_xcuKDjwa7rr+1GZHw@mail.gmail.com>

I feel like I'm on a bad episode of star trek now where the analogies
of science are extremely bad.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 9:12 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at gmail.com> wrote:
> That analogy is even less apt than the chocolate one.
>
> On Jul 26, 2011 8:36 AM, "Tal Liron" <tal.liron at threecrickets.com> wrote:
>> Who would you sell ChiPy to? Assume someone who doesn't care about
>> computing.
>>
>> On 07/26/2011 07:45 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
>>
>>> different analogy
>>>
>>> Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
>>> be bothered with how their code is compiled.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein<toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
>>>> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
>>>> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>>>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
>>>>> care about speed benchmarks.
>>>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Jul 26 16:30:26 2011
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:30:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>

Who don't I sell ChiPy too?

Interested in Python: come to chipy
don't know what python is? come to chipy
love python and want more...
hate python?  come to chipy.  we had one of those, he moved to TX and
will be at PyTX if schedule permits.  crazy.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 8:37 AM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com> wrote:
> Who would you sell ChiPy to? Assume someone who doesn't care about
> computing.
>
> On 07/26/2011 07:45 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
>
>> different analogy
>>
>> Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
>> be bothered with how their code is compiled.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein<toba at des.truct.org> ?wrote:
>>>
>>> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
>>> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
>>>> care about speed benchmarks.
>>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Carl K

From brianherman at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 16:44:05 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:44:05 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
	<CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wrNeLDySC=+vzw553GWtri6NuK1_wzC77f+tZ-vLqycZA@mail.gmail.com>

Even Ron May would like chi py.



Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>wrote:

> Who don't I sell ChiPy too?
>
> Interested in Python: come to chipy
> don't know what python is? come to chipy
> love python and want more...
> hate python?  come to chipy.  we had one of those, he moved to TX and
> will be at PyTX if schedule permits.  crazy.
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 8:37 AM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
> wrote:
> > Who would you sell ChiPy to? Assume someone who doesn't care about
> > computing.
> >
> > On 07/26/2011 07:45 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
> >
> >> different analogy
> >>
> >> Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
> >> be bothered with how their code is compiled.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein<toba at des.truct.org>
>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
> >>> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
> >>>
> >>> Eric
> >>>
> >>> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
> >>>> care about speed benchmarks.
> >>>>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carl K
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 16:45:52 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:45:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
	<CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zmnFRsxbEDdPB7_YDoYsXMRvH2U=txz0SmxnuYmoMjyZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Let us call a set "abnormal" if it is a member of itself, and "normal"
otherwise. For example, take the set of all members of ChiPy. That set
is not itself a member of ChiPy, and therefore is not a member of the
set of all members of ChiPy. So it is "normal". On the other hand, if
we take the complementary set that contains all non-members of ChiPy,
that set is itself not a member of ChiPy and so should be one of its
own members. It is "abnormal".

Now we consider the set of all normal sets, R. Attempting to determine
whether R is normal or abnormal is impossible: If R were a normal set,
it would be contained in the set of normal sets (itself), and
therefore be abnormal; and if it were abnormal, it would not be
contained in the set of normal sets (itself), and therefore be normal.
This leads to the conclusion that R is neither normal nor abnormal:
Russell's paradox.

From shekay at pobox.com  Tue Jul 26 17:10:30 2011
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:10:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1z=u-mukSA9Mt2g78-mtKRsf68p-_xcuKDjwa7rr+1GZHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
	<CAHCs_ra2A40KG4szx5XwXyz=pEU9oKiPMMG_rVSqZodvS5pnuQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=u-mukSA9Mt2g78-mtKRsf68p-_xcuKDjwa7rr+1GZHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_rYfktB_HX8g4wVhc7Cs_Kt5ks7tr3cEF06O5y0dBpq+bA@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, http://xkcd.com/895/

If only I were more like Feynman.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com> wrote:
> I feel like I'm on a bad episode of star trek now where the analogies
> of science are extremely bad.
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 9:12 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at gmail.com> wrote:
>> That analogy is even less apt than the chocolate one.
>>
>> On Jul 26, 2011 8:36 AM, "Tal Liron" <tal.liron at threecrickets.com> wrote:
>>> Who would you sell ChiPy to? Assume someone who doesn't care about
>>> computing.
>>>
>>> On 07/26/2011 07:45 AM, sheila miguez wrote:
>>>
>>>> different analogy
>>>>
>>>> Who would you sell a compiler to? Assume someone who doesn't want to
>>>> be bothered with how their code is compiled.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Eric Stein<toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
>>>>> Who would you sell chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips to?
>>>>> Assume someone who doesn't really care for chocolate. Go!
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric
>>>>>
>>>>> On 07/24/2011 10:46 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>>>>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not
>>>>>> care about speed benchmarks.
>>>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
sheila

From toba at des.truct.org  Tue Jul 26 17:31:26 2011
From: toba at des.truct.org (Eric Stein)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:31:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zmnFRsxbEDdPB7_YDoYsXMRvH2U=txz0SmxnuYmoMjyZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>	<CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zmnFRsxbEDdPB7_YDoYsXMRvH2U=txz0SmxnuYmoMjyZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E2EDDCE.9050904@des.truct.org>

The set of people who understand how your analogy relates to PyPy is
provably finite.

Eric

On 07/26/2011 09:45 AM, Joshua Herman wrote:
> Let us call a set "abnormal" if it is a member of itself, and "normal"
> otherwise. For example, take the set of all members of ChiPy. That set
> is not itself a member of ChiPy, and therefore is not a member of the
> set of all members of ChiPy. So it is "normal". On the other hand, if
> we take the complementary set that contains all non-members of ChiPy,
> that set is itself not a member of ChiPy and so should be one of its
> own members. It is "abnormal".
>
> Now we consider the set of all normal sets, R. Attempting to determine
> whether R is normal or abnormal is impossible: If R were a normal set,
> it would be contained in the set of normal sets (itself), and
> therefore be abnormal; and if it were abnormal, it would not be
> contained in the set of normal sets (itself), and therefore be normal.
> This leads to the conclusion that R is neither normal nor abnormal:
> Russell's paradox.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 17:35:42 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:35:42 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <4E2EDDCE.9050904@des.truct.org>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
	<CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zmnFRsxbEDdPB7_YDoYsXMRvH2U=txz0SmxnuYmoMjyZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EDDCE.9050904@des.truct.org>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=WX4V3Z7JuyR-ernEXm3gx6kmrPGrGTB-KJXOiASe9_g@mail.gmail.com>

True, and the people who want to understand my analogy are smaller still...

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Eric Stein <toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
> The set of people who understand how your analogy relates to PyPy is
> provably finite.
>
> Eric
>
> On 07/26/2011 09:45 AM, Joshua Herman wrote:
>> Let us call a set "abnormal" if it is a member of itself, and "normal"
>> otherwise. For example, take the set of all members of ChiPy. That set
>> is not itself a member of ChiPy, and therefore is not a member of the
>> set of all members of ChiPy. So it is "normal". On the other hand, if
>> we take the complementary set that contains all non-members of ChiPy,
>> that set is itself not a member of ChiPy and so should be one of its
>> own members. It is "abnormal".
>>
>> Now we consider the set of all normal sets, R. Attempting to determine
>> whether R is normal or abnormal is impossible: If R were a normal set,
>> it would be contained in the set of normal sets (itself), and
>> therefore be abnormal; and if it were abnormal, it would not be
>> contained in the set of normal sets (itself), and therefore be normal.
>> This leads to the conclusion that R is neither normal nor abnormal:
>> Russell's paradox.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Jul 26 17:45:57 2011
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:45:57 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] north meeting?
Message-ID: <CADmzSSgRSjyhFpPuWnh2FQAwrsEBvLhDkzHiz3pgcYM6pkBPPg@mail.gmail.com>

2 days till 4th Thurs.  anyone have a room or something to talk about?

-- 
Carl K

From tal.liron at threecrickets.com  Tue Jul 26 18:08:05 2011
From: tal.liron at threecrickets.com (Tal Liron)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:08:05 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1z=WX4V3Z7JuyR-ernEXm3gx6kmrPGrGTB-KJXOiASe9_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com> <4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com>
	<4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
	<CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zmnFRsxbEDdPB7_YDoYsXMRvH2U=txz0SmxnuYmoMjyZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EDDCE.9050904@des.truct.org>
	<CAB3V1z=WX4V3Z7JuyR-ernEXm3gx6kmrPGrGTB-KJXOiASe9_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADipiAPm+tn3iRHdKBuNk_6P7dtf6SH-UZC9CpHY6h7Mj0uhRA@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you everybody for your help in understanding the benefits of PyPy. :p

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>wrote:

> True, and the people who want to understand my analogy are smaller still...
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Eric Stein <toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
> > The set of people who understand how your analogy relates to PyPy is
> > provably finite.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On 07/26/2011 09:45 AM, Joshua Herman wrote:
> >> Let us call a set "abnormal" if it is a member of itself, and "normal"
> >> otherwise. For example, take the set of all members of ChiPy. That set
> >> is not itself a member of ChiPy, and therefore is not a member of the
> >> set of all members of ChiPy. So it is "normal". On the other hand, if
> >> we take the complementary set that contains all non-members of ChiPy,
> >> that set is itself not a member of ChiPy and so should be one of its
> >> own members. It is "abnormal".
> >>
> >> Now we consider the set of all normal sets, R. Attempting to determine
> >> whether R is normal or abnormal is impossible: If R were a normal set,
> >> it would be contained in the set of normal sets (itself), and
> >> therefore be abnormal; and if it were abnormal, it would not be
> >> contained in the set of normal sets (itself), and therefore be normal.
> >> This leads to the conclusion that R is neither normal nor abnormal:
> >> Russell's paradox.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Jul 26 18:56:46 2011
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:56:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] road trip PyOhio this friday
Message-ID: <CADmzSSgbJWE+DEDEuy3gi9EYhE-YqEgbrLhpjouZBt4TLSkZ3g@mail.gmail.com>

I am driving to PyOhio - leave this friday, return monday or tuesday.
Anyone want to join me?

Here are the talks: http://pyohio.org/schedule

-- 
Carl K

From brian.curtin at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 19:08:07 2011
From: brian.curtin at gmail.com (Brian Curtin)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:08:07 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] road trip PyOhio this friday
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSgbJWE+DEDEuy3gi9EYhE-YqEgbrLhpjouZBt4TLSkZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgbJWE+DEDEuy3gi9EYhE-YqEgbrLhpjouZBt4TLSkZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwpC=519L9ooWZqKSUgxqnbJXqhEanADeee-VfDWVA6WdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:56, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:

> I am driving to PyOhio - leave this friday, return monday or tuesday.
> Anyone want to join me?
>
> Here are the talks: http://pyohio.org/schedule


If you're going, check out the sprints -
http://pythonsprints.com/2011/07/22/pyohio-conference-and-sprints-osu/. I
don't know of their specific plans, but you should be able to hack on some
cool stuff with some cool people and grab a few slices of pizza or
something.
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 19:14:12 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:14:12 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] road trip PyOhio this friday
In-Reply-To: <CAD+XWwpC=519L9ooWZqKSUgxqnbJXqhEanADeee-VfDWVA6WdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgbJWE+DEDEuy3gi9EYhE-YqEgbrLhpjouZBt4TLSkZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwpC=519L9ooWZqKSUgxqnbJXqhEanADeee-VfDWVA6WdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01woTnLTQ1KdfLEWc-Ugnnbr-0B5zacHPXt+nGbQPKu2tLw@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm how much is the entry fee?


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:56, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>wrote:
>
>> I am driving to PyOhio - leave this friday, return monday or tuesday.
>> Anyone want to join me?
>>
>> Here are the talks: http://pyohio.org/schedule
>
>
> If you're going, check out the sprints -
> http://pythonsprints.com/2011/07/22/pyohio-conference-and-sprints-osu/. I
> don't know of their specific plans, but you should be able to hack on some
> cool stuff with some cool people and grab a few slices of pizza or
> something.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From alex.gaynor at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 19:19:26 2011
From: alex.gaynor at gmail.com (Alex Gaynor)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:19:26 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] road trip PyOhio this friday
In-Reply-To: <CAD+XWwpC=519L9ooWZqKSUgxqnbJXqhEanADeee-VfDWVA6WdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgbJWE+DEDEuy3gi9EYhE-YqEgbrLhpjouZBt4TLSkZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwpC=519L9ooWZqKSUgxqnbJXqhEanADeee-VfDWVA6WdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRnB2Xo4TpYhnYC4o=1iGp0zmQWKvqnA2ctBYQ5iM9qbR3kZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Free polio kicks add.

Alez
On Jul 26, 2011 10:13 AM, "Brian Curtin" <brian.curtin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:56, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
wrote:
>
>> I am driving to PyOhio - leave this friday, return monday or tuesday.
>> Anyone want to join me?
>>
>> Here are the talks: http://pyohio.org/schedule
>
>
> If you're going, check out the sprints -
> http://pythonsprints.com/2011/07/22/pyohio-conference-and-sprints-osu/. I
> don't know of their specific plans, but you should be able to hack on some
> cool stuff with some cool people and grab a few slices of pizza or
> something.
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From alex.gaynor at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 20:10:34 2011
From: alex.gaynor at gmail.com (Alex Gaynor)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:10:34 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] road trip PyOhio this friday
In-Reply-To: <CAFRnB2Xo4TpYhnYC4o=1iGp0zmQWKvqnA2ctBYQ5iM9qbR3kZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgbJWE+DEDEuy3gi9EYhE-YqEgbrLhpjouZBt4TLSkZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwpC=519L9ooWZqKSUgxqnbJXqhEanADeee-VfDWVA6WdA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2Xo4TpYhnYC4o=1iGp0zmQWKvqnA2ctBYQ5iM9qbR3kZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRnB2VWUeTy7_vbEWqpHKU25X-dmTpFBJfNYO6zi4ZudSew9g@mail.gmail.com>

Wow.  Never send emails from your cellphone, that was supposed to say:

Free, PyOhio kicks ass.

Alex (Yes, I typo'd my own name)

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:

> Free polio kicks add.
>
> Alez
> On Jul 26, 2011 10:13 AM, "Brian Curtin" <brian.curtin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:56, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I am driving to PyOhio - leave this friday, return monday or tuesday.
> >> Anyone want to join me?
> >>
> >> Here are the talks: http://pyohio.org/schedule
> >
> >
> > If you're going, check out the sprints -
> > http://pythonsprints.com/2011/07/22/pyohio-conference-and-sprints-osu/.
> I
> > don't know of their specific plans, but you should be able to hack on
> some
> > cool stuff with some cool people and grab a few slices of pizza or
> > something.
>



-- 
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
"The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
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From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 20:14:10 2011
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 13:14:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] road trip PyOhio this friday
In-Reply-To: <CAFRnB2VWUeTy7_vbEWqpHKU25X-dmTpFBJfNYO6zi4ZudSew9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgbJWE+DEDEuy3gi9EYhE-YqEgbrLhpjouZBt4TLSkZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwpC=519L9ooWZqKSUgxqnbJXqhEanADeee-VfDWVA6WdA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2Xo4TpYhnYC4o=1iGp0zmQWKvqnA2ctBYQ5iM9qbR3kZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2VWUeTy7_vbEWqpHKU25X-dmTpFBJfNYO6zi4ZudSew9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACsFw0gRfLTQPL9XyXbx__viMk98QY26m0rrdemKCrsM95r9mA@mail.gmail.com>

I liked the original email better.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow.  Never send emails from your cellphone, that was supposed to say:
>
> Free, PyOhio kicks ass.
>
> Alex (Yes, I typo'd my own name)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Free polio kicks add.
>>
>> Alez
>> On Jul 26, 2011 10:13 AM, "Brian Curtin" <brian.curtin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:56, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I am driving to PyOhio - leave this friday, return monday or tuesday.
>> >> Anyone want to join me?
>> >>
>> >> Here are the talks: http://pyohio.org/schedule
>> >
>> >
>> > If you're going, check out the sprints -
>> > http://pythonsprints.com/2011/07/22/pyohio-conference-and-sprints-osu/.
>> I
>> > don't know of their specific plans, but you should be able to hack on
>> some
>> > cool stuff with some cool people and grab a few slices of pizza or
>> > something.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
> say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
> "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 20:24:25 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:24:25 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] road trip PyOhio this friday
In-Reply-To: <CACsFw0gRfLTQPL9XyXbx__viMk98QY26m0rrdemKCrsM95r9mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgbJWE+DEDEuy3gi9EYhE-YqEgbrLhpjouZBt4TLSkZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwpC=519L9ooWZqKSUgxqnbJXqhEanADeee-VfDWVA6WdA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2Xo4TpYhnYC4o=1iGp0zmQWKvqnA2ctBYQ5iM9qbR3kZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2VWUeTy7_vbEWqpHKU25X-dmTpFBJfNYO6zi4ZudSew9g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACsFw0gRfLTQPL9XyXbx__viMk98QY26m0rrdemKCrsM95r9mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01woa_j53PgpgcxF8vPoDypFQFMSondNfKtQAh9uow1qPLw@mail.gmail.com>

So Carl would I have to chip in gas money?


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com>wrote:

> I liked the original email better.
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Wow.  Never send emails from your cellphone, that was supposed to say:
>>
>> Free, PyOhio kicks ass.
>>
>> Alex (Yes, I typo'd my own name)
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Free polio kicks add.
>>>
>>> Alez
>>> On Jul 26, 2011 10:13 AM, "Brian Curtin" <brian.curtin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:56, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> I am driving to PyOhio - leave this friday, return monday or tuesday.
>>> >> Anyone want to join me?
>>> >>
>>> >> Here are the talks: http://pyohio.org/schedule
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > If you're going, check out the sprints -
>>> > http://pythonsprints.com/2011/07/22/pyohio-conference-and-sprints-osu/.
>>> I
>>> > don't know of their specific plans, but you should be able to hack on
>>> some
>>> > cool stuff with some cool people and grab a few slices of pizza or
>>> > something.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right
>> to say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
>> "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 20:24:39 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:24:39 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] road trip PyOhio this friday
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01woa_j53PgpgcxF8vPoDypFQFMSondNfKtQAh9uow1qPLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgbJWE+DEDEuy3gi9EYhE-YqEgbrLhpjouZBt4TLSkZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwpC=519L9ooWZqKSUgxqnbJXqhEanADeee-VfDWVA6WdA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2Xo4TpYhnYC4o=1iGp0zmQWKvqnA2ctBYQ5iM9qbR3kZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2VWUeTy7_vbEWqpHKU25X-dmTpFBJfNYO6zi4ZudSew9g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACsFw0gRfLTQPL9XyXbx__viMk98QY26m0rrdemKCrsM95r9mA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01woa_j53PgpgcxF8vPoDypFQFMSondNfKtQAh9uow1qPLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wqzayhcGwgV4UGVs7YW8HQB2euQzK=eBbOBn4OQNjrs-A@mail.gmail.com>

And can I sleep in your car?


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com>wrote:

> So Carl would I have to chip in gas money?
>
>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I liked the original email better.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Wow.  Never send emails from your cellphone, that was supposed to say:
>>>
>>> Free, PyOhio kicks ass.
>>>
>>> Alex (Yes, I typo'd my own name)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Free polio kicks add.
>>>>
>>>> Alez
>>>> On Jul 26, 2011 10:13 AM, "Brian Curtin" <brian.curtin at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:56, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> I am driving to PyOhio - leave this friday, return monday or tuesday.
>>>> >> Anyone want to join me?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Here are the talks: http://pyohio.org/schedule
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > If you're going, check out the sprints -
>>>> >
>>>> http://pythonsprints.com/2011/07/22/pyohio-conference-and-sprints-osu/.
>>>> I
>>>> > don't know of their specific plans, but you should be able to hack on
>>>> some
>>>> > cool stuff with some cool people and grab a few slices of pizza or
>>>> > something.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right
>>> to say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
>>> "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
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From dxb251 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 24 19:29:52 2011
From: dxb251 at yahoo.com (David Beazley)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:29:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
Message-ID: <CA55CDB5-52A6-4DCB-BCC6-A4C3FC2166D6@yahoo.com>

> 
> On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, David Beazley <dxb251 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would make a statement that ignorant.
> 
> This statement is rude, inappropriate, and a personal attack. There
> are many other ways you could have said it. Including, "You may find
> that", etc. This is a technical list, not and excuse to be rude to
> others because of their opinions.
> 
> I say this without taking into account the technical merit of either
> of your opinions.

I apologize for the tone of my response.  Just so you know, I know Alex personally and think he's probably one of the most brilliant hackers I've ever met.   In fact, I'll go so far to say that if anyone is going to fix the GIL, it will probably be Alex.   However, I also enjoy giving him a hard time--the intent of my comment was nothing more than that (admittedly, it might have been phrased a bit better).

That said, I still think the original quote about IPC and performance is way off the mark.

Cheers,
Dave






From brianherman at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 13:11:50 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 06:11:50 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<91452DFD-AB44-48EA-8555-25F6279B3C10@yahoo.com>
	<4E2C6B6E.4040006@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2C78D4.804@hostedlabs.com> <4E2C84B3.2020702@threecrickets.com>
	<CAB3V1zk-LUxZ=4nr+JqNtJ=kDxb+H2c1zh2=kMo9vhfeuyKkAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJD01wpU91DdgA7jvLheEna9shJtBZgKhWxvcWpisV6R63UBiA@mail.gmail.com>

http://speed.pypy.org/


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com>wrote:

> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>
>
> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not care
> about speed benchmarks.
>
>
> On 07/24/2011 10:13 PM, Brian Herman wrote:
>
>  +1 for PYPY
>>
>>
>> Arigatou gozaimasu,
>> (Thank you very much)
>> Brian Herman
>>
>> brianjherman.com <http://brianjherman.com>
>> brianherman at acm.org <mailto:brianherman at acm.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com<mailto:
>> alex.gaynor at gmail.com>**> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>    On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Tal Liron
>>    <tal.liron at threecrickets.com <mailto:tal.liron@**threecrickets.com<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>> >>
>>    wrote:
>>
>>        JVM 7 will have some neat features, but they haven't been
>>        stabilized yet, and at this point it's mostly experimentation.
>>        Fact is, even though JVM 6 has been out for a few years
>>        already, many deployments still stick to JVM 5. It does the
>>        job, and "upgrades" have their costs, money and otherwise. I
>>        choose JVM for my project not because of speed, but because of
>>        the maturity of the platform, which includes administration
>>        tools, monitoring, security, and several best-in-class 3rd
>>        party libraries. It's nice to know that performance is very
>>        high up there if I really need it (at which case I just "drop
>>        down" to Java, rather than use a dynamic JVM language).
>>
>>
>>        The whole Jython codebase could use some help... it's even
>>        messier than CPython's, if that's possible. There's a lot of
>>        room for optimization, even before igniting JVM 7 shortcuts,
>>        though it will surely be at the cost of regressions and
>>        stability.Luckily, there's a decent test suite, which makes it
>>        easy to experiment for. The Jython community would LOVE help,
>>        and it doesn't have to be just in terms of coding. Their
>>        recent big project was to move the whole codebase from
>>        Subversion to Mercurial. Another big item on the todo list is
>>        to get up to date with Python 3. (Jython = Python 2.5
>>        formally, though it has quite a few 2.6 additions.)
>>
>>
>>        Jython also has some nice collaboration with JRuby, including
>>        people who work on both projects. But, what I would make me
>>        happier is if there was real code sharing, allowing for a
>>        dynamic core that would work well for both projects.
>>
>>
>>        Anyway. I guess I'm always confused by what people mean by
>>        "faster." What are you trying to code for, exactly? Where is
>>        your bottleneck? What is your funding? It's more likely that
>>        (although not necessarily) what you really are looking for is
>>        "scalability," for which shear computational performance is
>>        likely not the real issue. If money is coming, getting more
>>        expensive, faster machines may do the trick better than any
>>        JVM 7 optimization.
>>
>>
>>        If you just want a command line tool that starts fast, JVM is
>>        *not* where you want to go. It has notoriously slow startup,
>>        for exactly those mechanisms that make it perform so well as
>>        it runs.
>>
>>
>>        Another way to look at "faster" is as a way to save money.
>>        Weird, huh? But consider Facebook's HipHop project. (Sorry
>>        that all of my examples are from the web arena; it's where I
>>        mostly work these days.) The issue was not that PHP was
>>        "slow," it was that when you have 1,000 machines running at
>>        90% CPU, a faster PHP runtime means that you can use 800
>>        machines, instead, for the same workload. A few orders of
>>        magnitude forward, and savings can be enormous.
>>
>>
>>        If you have a project with 1,000 machines running at 90% CPU,
>>        please hire me! It may be very worthwhile for you to create a
>>        more performant Python runtime (JVM-based or not), and I'd
>>        love to be paid to do that. :) And it would also make a lot of
>>        irrational Python speed freaks happy.
>>
>>
>>        -Tal
>>
>>
>>    <minor derail>
>>    No offense, but if you want a more performant Python runtime, it's
>>    here today: http://speed.pypy.org/, no need to start from scratch.
>>    </minor derail>
>>
>>    Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>        On 07/24/2011 06:18 PM, John Stoner wrote:
>>
>>            Jython's not bad. I've used it a lot, and it plays well
>>            with lots of Java APIs. Pretty slick, actually. I hear
>>            Java 1.7 has some new dynamic features at the JVM level. I
>>            always imagined Jython would run a lot faster if it took
>>            advantage of them. Tal, do you know if there's any work on
>>            that? Googling around a bit I'm not seeing much.
>>
>>            On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Joshua Herman
>>            <zitterbewegung at gmail.com
>>            <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.**com <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>>
>>            <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.**com <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>
>>            <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.**com <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>>>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>               At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware
>>            that Jython
>>               was that powerful I will have to play with it.
>>
>>               On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron
>>            <tal.liron at threecrickets.com
>>            <mailto:tal.liron@**threecrickets.com<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>> >
>>            <mailto:tal.liron@**threecrickets.com<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>>            <mailto:tal.liron@**threecrickets.com<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>> >>>
>>
>>               wrote:
>>            > There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the
>>            JVM, and
>>               has no GIL.
>>            > It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If
>>            you want
>>               to do
>>            > high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has
>>               other advantages
>>            > and disadvantages, of course.)
>>            >
>>            >
>>            > I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to
>>            create new
>>               virtual
>>            > machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X.
>>               This shows a
>>            > huge under-estimation of what it means to create a
>>            robust, reliable,
>>            > performative generic platform. Consider how many really
>>            reliable
>>               versions of
>>            > the C standard library out there -- and how many decades
>>            they
>>               took to
>>            > mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over
>>            the code
>>               and testing
>>            > it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data
>>               integrity, scoping
>>            > (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other
>>            huge (and
>>               exciting)
>>            > challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
>>            >
>>            >
>>            > So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or
>>            Parrot
>>               come to be.
>>            > Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm
>>            equally
>>               impressed
>>            > by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual
>>            machine from
>>               scratch.
>>            >
>>            >
>>            > But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own
>>               unique history.
>>            > Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6
>>            years older
>>               than Java,
>>            > and the JVM would take another decade before reaching
>>               prominence. JavaScript
>>            > engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were
>>               terrible, and Perl
>>            > was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was
>>               written where
>>            > there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It
>>               wasn't a matter
>>            > of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch;
>>               there was simply
>>            > no choice.
>>            >
>>            >
>>            > Right now, though, there are many good choices. People
>>            like Rich
>>               Hickey
>>            > (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in
>>            targeting
>>               the JVM,
>>            > although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If
>>            Python
>>               were invented
>>            > today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython,"
>>            instead of
>>               trying to
>>            > reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet,
>>               really, in terms
>>            > of the work required).
>>            >
>>            >
>>            > One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects
>>            like
>>               PyPy and LLVM.
>>            > These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet
>>               another dynamic
>>            > VM" does not.
>>            >
>>            >
>>            > -Tal
>>            >
>>            >
>>            > On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
>>            >
>>            >> I also have to quote:
>>            >>
>>            >> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory
>>            concurrency is
>>            >> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about
>>            the GIL),
>>               message
>>            >> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal
>>            overhead
>>               (plus data
>>            >> size/locality ones)."
>>            >>
>>            >>
>>            >> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in
>>            quite a
>>               while. Dave's
>>            >> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the
>>               rudeness, or
>>            >> not, is kinda besides the point.
>>            >>
>>            >> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal
>>               overhead in
>>            >> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user
>>               expectation_ or
>>            >> environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people
>>               have some
>>            >> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a
>>               concept) in certain
>>            >> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means
>>               different things.
>>            >>
>>            >> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci
>>               question than a
>>            >> specific python question.  The problem set applies across
>>               languages.
>>            >>
>>            >> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer
>>               understands the
>>            >> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the
>>            toolbox?  Is
>>               there an
>>            >> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not
>>            the ideal
>>               solution?
>>            >>
>>            >> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the
>>            toolbox
>>               to deal
>>            >> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>>            >>
>>            >>
>>            >> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>            >>>
>>            >>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches.
>>               "Scalability" means
>>            >>> different things at different levels of scale. A web
>>            example: the
>>            >>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the
>>               architecture of
>>            >>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same
>>            problem field.
>>            >>>
>>            >>>
>>            >>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at
>>            certain
>>               scales. For
>>            >>> data structures that are mostly read, not written,
>>               synchronization is
>>            >>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput
>>               possible in
>>            >>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be
>>               achieved by a
>>            >>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message
>>            passing
>>               between
>>            >>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare
>>            (unless
>>               you had a
>>            >>> programming language that makes both approaches
>>            transparent)
>>               and so
>>            >>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is
>>            chosen. One
>>            >>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that
>>               MIGHT use the
>>            >>> same data structures are actually performed on the
>>            same node,
>>               so that
>>            >>> threading would be put to use.
>>            >>>
>>            >>>
>>            >>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading,
>>            too: "you
>>               still need
>>            >>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>>               application to use
>>            >>> it."
>>            >>>
>>            >>>
>>            >>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing
>>            right
>>               is hard.
>>            >>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard,
>>               too. Good
>>            >>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with
>>               experience and a
>>            >>> desire to learn.
>>            >>>
>>            >>>
>>            >>> -Tal
>>            >>>
>>            >>>
>>            >>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>>            >>>
>>            >>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that
>>            message" very
>>            >>>>> rarely have
>>            >>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>            >>>>>
>>            >>>>> Alex
>>            >>>>>
>>            >>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would
>>            make a
>>               statement
>>            >>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing
>>            Python and
>>            >>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find
>>               that almost
>>            >>>> significant application is based on message passing
>>            (e.g.,
>>               MPI). This
>>            >>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be
>>            about the
>>               only sane
>>            >>>> way of scaling applications up to run across
>>            thousands to tens of
>>            >>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such
>>            software
>>               for large
>>            >>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I
>>            first
>>               discovered
>>            >>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done
>>               performance
>>            >>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>>            >>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads
>>            just didn't
>>               scale or
>>            >>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines
>>            with as
>>               few as 4
>>            >>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for
>>            numerics (i.e., no
>>            >>>> Python or GIL).
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you
>>            still
>>               need to
>>            >>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>>            application
>>               to use it.
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>> Cheers,
>>            >>>> Dave
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>>
>>            >>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>            >>>> Chicago mailing list
>>            >>>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>            <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>
>>            >>>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>            >>>
>>            >>> ______________________________**_________________
>>            >>> Chicago mailing list
>>            >>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>            <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>
>>            >>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>            >>
>>            >> ______________________________**_________________
>>            >> Chicago mailing list
>>            >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>            <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>
>>            >> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>            >
>>            > ______________________________**_________________
>>            > Chicago mailing list
>>            > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>            <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>
>>            > http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>            >
>>               ______________________________**_________________
>>               Chicago mailing list
>>            Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>            <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>
>>            http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>            --             blogs:
>>            http://johnstoner.wordpress.**com/<http://johnstoner.wordpress.com/>
>>            'In knowledge is power; in  wisdom, humility.'
>>
>>
>>            ______________________________**_________________
>>            Chicago mailing list
>>            Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>            http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>
>>
>>        ______________________________**_________________
>>        Chicago mailing list
>>        Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>        http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    --     "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
>> your
>>    right to say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
>>    "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>>
>>
>>    ______________________________**_________________
>>    Chicago mailing list
>>    Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>    http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 13:13:56 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 06:13:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wpU91DdgA7jvLheEna9shJtBZgKhWxvcWpisV6R63UBiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6727.1311442625.1163.chicago@python.org>
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Message-ID: <CAJD01woPoZQ2OwG6rTLr4SSYudVcvcYFG5rp31MGqNEFd29fng@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, I thought you were talking about speed, I would recommend it to anyone
but if you want to be slow you can always use C python.
Pypy is 2.7 compatible.


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 6:11 AM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://speed.pypy.org/
>
>
> Arigatou gozaimasu,
> (Thank you very much)
> Brian Herman
>
> brianjherman.com
> brianherman at acm.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Tal Liron <tal.liron at threecrickets.com>wrote:
>
>> For the people recommending PyPy right now, a serious question:
>>
>>
>> Who would you recommend PyPy to? Assume a user or dev who does not care
>> about speed benchmarks.
>>
>>
>> On 07/24/2011 10:13 PM, Brian Herman wrote:
>>
>>  +1 for PYPY
>>>
>>>
>>> Arigatou gozaimasu,
>>> (Thank you very much)
>>> Brian Herman
>>>
>>> brianjherman.com <http://brianjherman.com>
>>> brianherman at acm.org <mailto:brianherman at acm.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor at gmail.com<mailto:
>>> alex.gaynor at gmail.com>**> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Tal Liron
>>>    <tal.liron at threecrickets.com <mailto:tal.liron@**threecrickets.com<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>>> >>
>>>    wrote:
>>>
>>>        JVM 7 will have some neat features, but they haven't been
>>>        stabilized yet, and at this point it's mostly experimentation.
>>>        Fact is, even though JVM 6 has been out for a few years
>>>        already, many deployments still stick to JVM 5. It does the
>>>        job, and "upgrades" have their costs, money and otherwise. I
>>>        choose JVM for my project not because of speed, but because of
>>>        the maturity of the platform, which includes administration
>>>        tools, monitoring, security, and several best-in-class 3rd
>>>        party libraries. It's nice to know that performance is very
>>>        high up there if I really need it (at which case I just "drop
>>>        down" to Java, rather than use a dynamic JVM language).
>>>
>>>
>>>        The whole Jython codebase could use some help... it's even
>>>        messier than CPython's, if that's possible. There's a lot of
>>>        room for optimization, even before igniting JVM 7 shortcuts,
>>>        though it will surely be at the cost of regressions and
>>>        stability.Luckily, there's a decent test suite, which makes it
>>>        easy to experiment for. The Jython community would LOVE help,
>>>        and it doesn't have to be just in terms of coding. Their
>>>        recent big project was to move the whole codebase from
>>>        Subversion to Mercurial. Another big item on the todo list is
>>>        to get up to date with Python 3. (Jython = Python 2.5
>>>        formally, though it has quite a few 2.6 additions.)
>>>
>>>
>>>        Jython also has some nice collaboration with JRuby, including
>>>        people who work on both projects. But, what I would make me
>>>        happier is if there was real code sharing, allowing for a
>>>        dynamic core that would work well for both projects.
>>>
>>>
>>>        Anyway. I guess I'm always confused by what people mean by
>>>        "faster." What are you trying to code for, exactly? Where is
>>>        your bottleneck? What is your funding? It's more likely that
>>>        (although not necessarily) what you really are looking for is
>>>        "scalability," for which shear computational performance is
>>>        likely not the real issue. If money is coming, getting more
>>>        expensive, faster machines may do the trick better than any
>>>        JVM 7 optimization.
>>>
>>>
>>>        If you just want a command line tool that starts fast, JVM is
>>>        *not* where you want to go. It has notoriously slow startup,
>>>        for exactly those mechanisms that make it perform so well as
>>>        it runs.
>>>
>>>
>>>        Another way to look at "faster" is as a way to save money.
>>>        Weird, huh? But consider Facebook's HipHop project. (Sorry
>>>        that all of my examples are from the web arena; it's where I
>>>        mostly work these days.) The issue was not that PHP was
>>>        "slow," it was that when you have 1,000 machines running at
>>>        90% CPU, a faster PHP runtime means that you can use 800
>>>        machines, instead, for the same workload. A few orders of
>>>        magnitude forward, and savings can be enormous.
>>>
>>>
>>>        If you have a project with 1,000 machines running at 90% CPU,
>>>        please hire me! It may be very worthwhile for you to create a
>>>        more performant Python runtime (JVM-based or not), and I'd
>>>        love to be paid to do that. :) And it would also make a lot of
>>>        irrational Python speed freaks happy.
>>>
>>>
>>>        -Tal
>>>
>>>
>>>    <minor derail>
>>>    No offense, but if you want a more performant Python runtime, it's
>>>    here today: http://speed.pypy.org/, no need to start from scratch.
>>>    </minor derail>
>>>
>>>    Alex
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>        On 07/24/2011 06:18 PM, John Stoner wrote:
>>>
>>>            Jython's not bad. I've used it a lot, and it plays well
>>>            with lots of Java APIs. Pretty slick, actually. I hear
>>>            Java 1.7 has some new dynamic features at the JVM level. I
>>>            always imagined Jython would run a lot faster if it took
>>>            advantage of them. Tal, do you know if there's any work on
>>>            that? Googling around a bit I'm not seeing much.
>>>
>>>            On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Joshua Herman
>>>            <zitterbewegung at gmail.com
>>>            <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.**com <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>
>>> >
>>>            <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.**com <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>
>>>            <mailto:zitterbewegung at gmail.**com <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>               At least erlang works for the use cases. I wasn't aware
>>>            that Jython
>>>               was that powerful I will have to play with it.
>>>
>>>               On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Tal Liron
>>>            <tal.liron at threecrickets.com
>>>            <mailto:tal.liron@**threecrickets.com<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>>> >
>>>            <mailto:tal.liron@**threecrickets.com<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>>>            <mailto:tal.liron@**threecrickets.com<tal.liron at threecrickets.com>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>>               wrote:
>>>            > There is an alternative: Jython, which is Python on the
>>>            JVM, and
>>>               has no GIL.
>>>            > It's real, it works, and has a very open community. If
>>>            you want
>>>               to do
>>>            > high-concurrency in Python, it's the way to go. (And it has
>>>               other advantages
>>>            > and disadvantages, of course.)
>>>            >
>>>            >
>>>            > I am always a bit frightened by community attempts to
>>>            create new
>>>               virtual
>>>            > machines for favorite languages in order to solve problem X.
>>>               This shows a
>>>            > huge under-estimation of what it means to create a
>>>            robust, reliable,
>>>            > performative generic platform. Consider how many really
>>>            reliable
>>>               versions of
>>>            > the C standard library out there -- and how many decades
>>>            they
>>>               took to
>>>            > mature, even with thousands of expert eyes poring over
>>>            the code
>>>               and testing
>>>            > it. And this is without duck typing (or ANY typing), data
>>>               integrity, scoping
>>>            > (+call/cc), tail recursion, or any other of the other
>>>            huge (and
>>>               exciting)
>>>            > challenges required to run a dynamic language like Python.
>>>            >
>>>            >
>>>            > So, it's almost amusing to see projects like Rubinius or
>>>            Parrot
>>>               come to be.
>>>            > Really? This is the best use of our time and effort? I'm
>>>            equally
>>>               impressed
>>>            > by the ballsiness of Erlang to create a new virtual
>>>            machine from
>>>               scratch.
>>>            >
>>>            >
>>>            > But those are rather unique histories. CPython has it's own
>>>               unique history.
>>>            > Not many people realize this, but Python is about 6
>>>            years older
>>>               than Java,
>>>            > and the JVM would take another decade before reaching
>>>               prominence. JavaScript
>>>            > engines (running in web browsers only) at the time were
>>>               terrible, and Perl
>>>            > was entirely interpreted (no VM). So, in fact, CPython was
>>>               written where
>>>            > there was no really good platform for dynamic languages. It
>>>               wasn't a matter
>>>            > of hubris ("not invented here") to build a VM from scratch;
>>>               there was simply
>>>            > no choice.
>>>            >
>>>            >
>>>            > Right now, though, there are many good choices. People
>>>            like Rich
>>>               Hickey
>>>            > (Clojure) and Martin Odersky (Scala) have it right in
>>>            targeting
>>>               the JVM,
>>>            > although both projects are also exploring .NET/Mono. If
>>>            Python
>>>               were invented
>>>            > today, I imagine it also would start with "Jython,"
>>>            instead of
>>>               trying to
>>>            > reinvent the wheel (well, reinvent a whole damn car fleet,
>>>               really, in terms
>>>            > of the work required).
>>>            >
>>>            >
>>>            > One caveat: I think there is room for "meta-VM" projects
>>>            like
>>>               PyPy and LLVM.
>>>            > These signify a real progress in architecture, whereas "yet
>>>               another dynamic
>>>            > VM" does not.
>>>            >
>>>            >
>>>            > -Tal
>>>            >
>>>            >
>>>            > On 07/24/2011 02:56 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote:
>>>            >
>>>            >> I also have to quote:
>>>            >>
>>>            >> "rather that, for problems for which shared-memory
>>>            concurrency is
>>>            >> appropriate (read: the valid cases to complain about
>>>            the GIL),
>>>               message
>>>            >> passing will not be, because of the marshal/unmarshal
>>>            overhead
>>>               (plus data
>>>            >> size/locality ones)."
>>>            >>
>>>            >>
>>>            >> I have to say this is some of the best discussion in
>>>            quite a
>>>               while. Dave's
>>>            >> passionate response is great as well as others. I think the
>>>               rudeness, or
>>>            >> not, is kinda besides the point.
>>>            >>
>>>            >> There is a valid point to be made about marshal/unmarshal
>>>               overhead in
>>>            >> situations where data-manipulation-concurrency AND _user
>>>               expectation_ or
>>>            >> environmental constraints apply.  I think that's why people
>>>               have some
>>>            >> grounds to be unhappy with the GIL concept (for me its a
>>>               concept) in certain
>>>            >> circumstances. Tal is dead on in that "scalability" means
>>>               different things.
>>>            >>
>>>            >> Oddly, I'm more engaged in this as an abstract comp sci
>>>               question than a
>>>            >> specific python question.  The problem set applies across
>>>               languages.
>>>            >>
>>>            >> The question I would raise is if, given that an engineer
>>>               understands the
>>>            >> problem he is facing, are there both tools in the
>>>            toolbox?  Is
>>>               there an
>>>            >> alternative to GIL for the use-cases where it is not
>>>            the ideal
>>>               solution?
>>>            >>
>>>            >> BTW, I will stand up for IPC as one of the tools in the
>>>            toolbox
>>>               to deal
>>>            >> with scale/volume/speed/concurrency problems.
>>>            >>
>>>            >>
>>>            >> On 7/24/11 1:58 PM, Tal Liron wrote:
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>> I would say that there's truth in both approaches.
>>>               "Scalability" means
>>>            >>> different things at different levels of scale. A web
>>>            example: the
>>>            >>> architecture of Twitter or Facebook is nothing like the
>>>               architecture of
>>>            >>> even a large Django site. It's not even the same
>>>            problem field.
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>> A good threading model can be extremely efficient at
>>>            certain
>>>               scales. For
>>>            >>> data structures that are mostly read, not written,
>>>               synchronization is
>>>            >>> not a performance issue, and you get the best throughput
>>>               possible in
>>>            >>> multicore situations. The truly best scalability would be
>>>               achieved by a
>>>            >>> combined approach: threading on a single node, message
>>>            passing
>>>               between
>>>            >>> nodes. Programming for that, though, is a nightmare
>>>            (unless
>>>               you had a
>>>            >>> programming language that makes both approaches
>>>            transparent)
>>>               and so
>>>            >>> usually at the large scale the latter approach is
>>>            chosen. One
>>>            >>> significant challenge is to make sure that operations that
>>>               MIGHT use the
>>>            >>> same data structures are actually performed on the
>>>            same node,
>>>               so that
>>>            >>> threading would be put to use.
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>> So, what Dave said applies very well to threading,
>>>            too: "you
>>>               still need
>>>            >>> to know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>>>               application to use
>>>            >>> it."
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>> Doing concurrency right is hard. Doing message passing
>>>            right
>>>               is hard.
>>>            >>> Functional (persistent data structure) languages are hard,
>>>               too. Good
>>>            >>> thing we're all such awesome geniuses, bursting with
>>>               experience and a
>>>            >>> desire to learn.
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>> -Tal
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>> On 07/23/2011 01:40 PM, David Beazley wrote:
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>>>> "high performance just create multi processes that
>>>            message" very
>>>            >>>>> rarely have
>>>            >>>>> I heard IPC and high performance in the same sentence.
>>>            >>>>>
>>>            >>>>> Alex
>>>            >>>>>
>>>            >>>> Your youth and inexperience is the only reason would
>>>            make a
>>>               statement
>>>            >>>> that ignorant. Go hang out with some people doing
>>>            Python and
>>>            >>>> supercomputing for awhile and report back---you will find
>>>               that almost
>>>            >>>> significant application is based on message passing
>>>            (e.g.,
>>>               MPI). This
>>>            >>>> is because message passing has proven itself to be
>>>            about the
>>>               only sane
>>>            >>>> way of scaling applications up to run across
>>>            thousands to tens of
>>>            >>>> thousands of CPU cores.
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>> I speak from some experience as I was writing such
>>>            software
>>>               for large
>>>            >>>> Crays, Connection Machines, and other systems when I
>>>            first
>>>               discovered
>>>            >>>> Python back in 1996. As early as 1995, our group had done
>>>               performance
>>>            >>>> experiments comparing threads vs. message passing on some
>>>            >>>> multiprocessor SMP systems and found that threads
>>>            just didn't
>>>               scale or
>>>            >>>> perform as well as message passing even on machines
>>>            with as
>>>               few as 4
>>>            >>>> CPUs. This was all highly optimized C code for
>>>            numerics (i.e., no
>>>            >>>> Python or GIL).
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>> That said, in order to code with message passing, you
>>>            still
>>>               need to
>>>            >>>> know what you're doing and how to decompose your
>>>            application
>>>               to use it.
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>> Cheers,
>>>            >>>> Dave
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>>
>>>            >>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>            >>>> Chicago mailing list
>>>            >>>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>            <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>>
>>>            >>>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>            >>>
>>>            >>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>            >>> Chicago mailing list
>>>            >>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>            <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>>
>>>            >>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>            >>
>>>            >> ______________________________**_________________
>>>            >> Chicago mailing list
>>>            >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>            <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>>
>>>            >> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>            >
>>>            > ______________________________**_________________
>>>            > Chicago mailing list
>>>            > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>            <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>>
>>>            > http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>            >
>>>               ______________________________**_________________
>>>               Chicago mailing list
>>>            Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>            <mailto:Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>>>
>>>            http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>            --             blogs:
>>>            http://johnstoner.wordpress.**com/<http://johnstoner.wordpress.com/>
>>>            'In knowledge is power; in  wisdom, humility.'
>>>
>>>
>>>            ______________________________**_________________
>>>            Chicago mailing list
>>>            Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>            http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>
>>>
>>>        ______________________________**_________________
>>>        Chicago mailing list
>>>        Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>        http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    --     "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
>>> your
>>>    right to say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
>>>    "The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero
>>>
>>>
>>>    ______________________________**_________________
>>>    Chicago mailing list
>>>    Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>    http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>
>
>
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From jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com  Mon Jul 25 22:00:58 2011
From: jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com (Jeremy McMillan)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:00:58 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social	
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7010.1311597219.1163.chicago@python.org>
References: <mailman.7010.1311597219.1163.chicago@python.org>
Message-ID: <02066BB2-DE6E-45E7-92D6-8B87050B09EA@me.com>

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:04 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> I am pretty open to looking at this as our next mentoring project.  I
> do think we need to get a couple tasks done for the the chipy.org site
> first.  Also, if we are going to take on an outside project like this
> we should probably take a look at a couple and pick one perhaps after
> some sort of vote.
> 
> Cheers, Brian

A) Tasks for the chipy.org site: which ones?

B) Vote on what? Do we have any other proposals to consider?

People who expressed interest in the philanthropy mentoring project:
* Daniel Peters <danieltpeters at gmail.com>
* Dan Schmidt <vapor.noob at gmail.com>

I am against abandoning the Chipy web site, because I think it's good for Chipy, and Chipy is good for everybody! However, there are more things to learn from other projects, some of which might be contributed back to the Chipy site, and we've apparently doubled our supply of mentors (assuming the Dans Peters and Schmidt are willing and able to mentor). Otherwise, we've just doubled our supply of mentees  or added a matched pair for a ~30% increase in heads. Oh, and my wife is interested in taking on some of the administrative or design work. What Chipy site enhancements would you consider a blocker?
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From brianhray at gmail.com  Wed Jul 27 15:09:27 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:09:27 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <02066BB2-DE6E-45E7-92D6-8B87050B09EA@me.com>
References: <mailman.7010.1311597219.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<02066BB2-DE6E-45E7-92D6-8B87050B09EA@me.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38uujY7Ybkz247fQOC6RFKWCB0tqUpnVKRMDHJfTRG9sLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Jeremy McMillan
<jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
> On?Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:04?AM,?Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com>?wrote:
>
> A) Tasks for the chipy.org site: which ones?

Here is my list, however not all these are *must* haves. (in no
particular order)

We are currently reviewing the custom map integration already in trunk
but not live, Thanks!
We need to add RSS and Json for meeting feeds along with a permalink
vCal/iCal integration
Sponsorship handling
listing venues separate
(administrative) we need new/old videos added and the sorting fixed on
past meetings
A form for proposal of talks
A Monitored Job section that helps those looking for Python people or
those looking for job
Swap traceback needs fixed

(these can also be found here https://github.com/brianray/Chipy/issues)

Along with this this there are some bugs on the site before we move
on. It just seems we could be taking better advantage of some of the
pinax features or we need to do some administration.

> B) Vote on what??Do we have any other proposals to consider?

I could toss a snake and it would probably hit someone who would love
us to work on their project. ?I do not want to pick without looking
around because that will send the wrong message. Nonetheless, if we
know this is a good project and we are happy with the current
chipy.org I do not object to jumping on this.

-- Brian

From dean at gianthead.net  Wed Jul 27 15:25:18 2011
From: dean at gianthead.net (Dean Sellis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:25:18 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] north meeting?
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSgRSjyhFpPuWnh2FQAwrsEBvLhDkzHiz3pgcYM6pkBPPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgRSjyhFpPuWnh2FQAwrsEBvLhDkzHiz3pgcYM6pkBPPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP4U7KGLFF105ZZqxtbVQQpyLExHJnfMT4u35jRCYW6ExCpv=Q@mail.gmail.com>

Praxis can host again at our offices in Lake Forest.

I've been playing around with Pump recently and I could give a brief
presentation about it.  It would follow up well with my web framework talk
from the last north meeting.

Regards,
Dean

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>wrote:

> 2 days till 4th Thurs.  anyone have a room or something to talk about?
>
> --
> Carl K
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From dean at gianthead.net  Wed Jul 27 15:25:51 2011
From: dean at gianthead.net (Dean Sellis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:25:51 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] north meeting?
In-Reply-To: <CAP4U7KGLFF105ZZqxtbVQQpyLExHJnfMT4u35jRCYW6ExCpv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgRSjyhFpPuWnh2FQAwrsEBvLhDkzHiz3pgcYM6pkBPPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KGLFF105ZZqxtbVQQpyLExHJnfMT4u35jRCYW6ExCpv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP4U7KEk6Tj3MOKprRgwQ5OPibDa+MyNg=wrAgWBAWAR3F=dfg@mail.gmail.com>

And I won't talk so much this time.

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Dean Sellis <dean at gianthead.net> wrote:

> Praxis can host again at our offices in Lake Forest.
>
> I've been playing around with Pump recently and I could give a brief
> presentation about it.  It would follow up well with my web framework talk
> from the last north meeting.
>
> Regards,
> Dean
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>wrote:
>
>> 2 days till 4th Thurs.  anyone have a room or something to talk about?
>>
>> --
>> Carl K
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
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From shekay at pobox.com  Wed Jul 27 15:36:06 2011
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:36:06 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38uujY7Ybkz247fQOC6RFKWCB0tqUpnVKRMDHJfTRG9sLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7010.1311597219.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<02066BB2-DE6E-45E7-92D6-8B87050B09EA@me.com>
	<CANKg38uujY7Ybkz247fQOC6RFKWCB0tqUpnVKRMDHJfTRG9sLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_ranMWK4rncrjXXLDEgA=JFv1i=9M=FqwjTJyWthDufhnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:09 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Jeremy McMillan
> <jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On?Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:04?AM,?Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com>?wrote:
>>
>> A) Tasks for the chipy.org site: which ones?
>
> Here is my list, however not all these are *must* haves. (in no
> particular order)
[snip]

Doh! I never got around to entering my feature request for urls to
fetch specific meetings.

-- 
sheila

From skip at pobox.com  Wed Jul 27 15:42:46 2011
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:42:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CA55CDB5-52A6-4DCB-BCC6-A4C3FC2166D6@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<CA55CDB5-52A6-4DCB-BCC6-A4C3FC2166D6@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20016.5590.424646.653968@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    >> This statement is rude, inappropriate, and a personal attack....

    Dave> I apologize for the tone of my response.  Just so you know, I know
    Dave> Alex personally ....  I also enjoy giving him a hard time--the
    Dave> intent of my comment was nothing more than that (admittedly, it
    Dave> might have been phrased a bit better).

I participate in some online masters swim forums.  There are two members,
Aquageek and Wookie, who are always insulting each other.  It never
escalates, however.  After awhile you realize that they are obviously very
good friends and wonder how they will insult each other next.

I think it's best for all concerned to accept the occasional apparent insult
as something along those lines, especially if you don't personally know the
parties involved.  If the back-and-forth escalates into something you can't
plausibly interpret as online fun-poking, then, sure, call the
participant(s) on it.

-- 
Skip Montanaro - skip at pobox.com - http://www.smontanaro.net/

From skip at pobox.com  Wed Jul 27 19:26:08 2011
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Chicago] Administrivia - please trim your replies
Message-ID: <20110727172608.0DC9917CDC5F@montanaro.dyndns.org>


In my capacity as list moderator I've received complaints recently that the
"daily" digest is being sent out multiple times per day.  This is because
the accumulated messages are hitting the digest size limit.  I doubled the
digest size limit from 30k to 60k.  That didn't help.  Investigating, I
found that a big part of the problem is that people appear not to be
trimming replies when quoting other messages.  Please, when responding to
another mail message, trim the message you are quoting to include just the
bit(s) relevant to your post.

This problem can be exacerbated by top posting.  I don't want to debate the
merits of top posting and bottom posting.  I have better things to do with
my life.  However, I realize that many mail programs by default format
replies so as to encourage top posting (Outlook at Thunderbird come to
mind).  If you top post, it's easy to miss the fact that there might be
several hundred lines of quoted which you can't see because they have been
scrolled out of view in your composition window.  If you top post, it is
your responsibility to trim your post appropriately, even if you can't see
what you are quoting!

Thx,

Skip

From brianherman at gmail.com  Wed Jul 27 20:08:01 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:08:01 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Administrivia - please trim your replies
In-Reply-To: <20110727172608.0DC9917CDC5F@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <20110727172608.0DC9917CDC5F@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wrssqnMD+4At8H2=a2p-BAhvTmJhfUkoSq_BcWcdiPoAA@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you administrator, If I ever see you I will buy you a drink


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org
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From danieltpeters at gmail.com  Wed Jul 27 20:34:31 2011
From: danieltpeters at gmail.com (Daniel Peters)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:34:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Mentoring Proposal Fwd: website needed for social
	enterprise
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38uujY7Ybkz247fQOC6RFKWCB0tqUpnVKRMDHJfTRG9sLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7010.1311597219.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<02066BB2-DE6E-45E7-92D6-8B87050B09EA@me.com>
	<CANKg38uujY7Ybkz247fQOC6RFKWCB0tqUpnVKRMDHJfTRG9sLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHzLg+YVF=JR+0+CsPQuFAMSbBQF0WVasVbpmRYxm2HxTRsQ4w@mail.gmail.com>

A sidenote, I'm perfectly happy to help with any of the issues for chipy.org,
I have a small bit of free time and would like to learn a bit more of
pinax.  I deeply appreciate the list, the meetings, the time spent on the
videos (thanks carl), beers and coffee once a month, etc. That being said I
offered to help with the fair trade site because its a fair trade site, not
because of the mentoring opportunity.  I'm willing to help both in whatever
capacity so that issues with Chipy don't get pushed under the bus, but my
time isn't up for a vote on the list.  If the fairtrade site needs help
whether as a blessed project or not, please email me.  As for chipy.org,
I'll happily duck over to  github and pick an issue, or Brian, if you have
one in particular that you want finished first, send me an email and I'll
happily jump on that one. Brian I also appreciate that you don't want the
list to turn into a place where everyone dumps we-need-free-work projects,
looking for suckers, just know that, well, certain causes are an easy sell
for me.  shrug.

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:09 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Jeremy McMillan
> <jeremy.mcmillan at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:04 AM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > A) Tasks for the chipy.org site: which ones?
>
> Here is my list, however not all these are *must* haves. (in no
> particular order)
>
> We are currently reviewing the custom map integration already in trunk
> but not live, Thanks!
> We need to add RSS and Json for meeting feeds along with a permalink
> vCal/iCal integration
> Sponsorship handling
> listing venues separate
> (administrative) we need new/old videos added and the sorting fixed on
> past meetings
> A form for proposal of talks
> A Monitored Job section that helps those looking for Python people or
> those looking for job
> Swap traceback needs fixed
>
> (these can also be found here https://github.com/brianray/Chipy/issues)
>
> Along with this this there are some bugs on the site before we move
> on. It just seems we could be taking better advantage of some of the
> pinax features or we need to do some administration.
>
> > B) Vote on what? Do we have any other proposals to consider?
>
> I could toss a snake and it would probably hit someone who would love
> us to work on their project.  I do not want to pick without looking
> around because that will send the wrong message. Nonetheless, if we
> know this is a good project and we are happy with the current
> chipy.org I do not object to jumping on this.
>
> -- Brian
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From jmwebstuff at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 27 22:02:26 2011
From: jmwebstuff at yahoo.com (Julie Bell)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:02:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Chicago] north meeting?
In-Reply-To: <CAP4U7KEk6Tj3MOKprRgwQ5OPibDa+MyNg=wrAgWBAWAR3F=dfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgRSjyhFpPuWnh2FQAwrsEBvLhDkzHiz3pgcYM6pkBPPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KGLFF105ZZqxtbVQQpyLExHJnfMT4u35jRCYW6ExCpv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KEk6Tj3MOKprRgwQ5OPibDa+MyNg=wrAgWBAWAR3F=dfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1311796946.87624.YahooMailNeo@web130124.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Is there a North meeting July 21st? 


From: Dean Sellis <dean at gianthead.net>
To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Chicago] north meeting?


And I won't talk so much this time.


On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Dean Sellis <dean at gianthead.net> wrote:

Praxis can host again at our offices in Lake Forest. ? 
>
>
>I've been playing around with Pump recently and I could give a brief presentation about it. ?It would follow up well with my web framework talk from the last north meeting.?
>
>
>Regards,
>Dean 
>
>
>
>On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>
>2 days till 4th Thurs. ?anyone have a room or something to talk about?
>>
>>--
>>Carl K
>>_______________________________________________
>>Chicago mailing list
>>Chicago at python.org
>>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>

_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From brianherman at gmail.com  Wed Jul 27 22:09:00 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:09:00 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] north meeting?
In-Reply-To: <1311796946.87624.YahooMailNeo@web130124.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CADmzSSgRSjyhFpPuWnh2FQAwrsEBvLhDkzHiz3pgcYM6pkBPPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KGLFF105ZZqxtbVQQpyLExHJnfMT4u35jRCYW6ExCpv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KEk6Tj3MOKprRgwQ5OPibDa+MyNg=wrAgWBAWAR3F=dfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1311796946.87624.YahooMailNeo@web130124.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wp8Fd_gm65_cQEFb+SEpfPk2o2ECcBC4a1rcLV3r+2p3A@mail.gmail.com>

Is there anyone to organize the meeting?


Arigatou gozaimasu,
(Thank you very much)
Brian Herman

brianjherman.com
brianherman at acm.org








On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Julie Bell <jmwebstuff at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Is there a North meeting July 21st?
>
>   *From:* Dean Sellis <dean at gianthead.net>
> *To:* The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:25 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Chicago] north meeting?
>
> And I won't talk so much this time.
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Dean Sellis <dean at gianthead.net> wrote:
>
> Praxis can host again at our offices in Lake Forest.
>
> I've been playing around with Pump recently and I could give a brief
> presentation about it.  It would follow up well with my web framework talk
> from the last north meeting.
>
> Regards,
> Dean
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>wrote:
>
> 2 days till 4th Thurs.  anyone have a room or something to talk about?
>
> --
> Carl K
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Jul 27 23:03:18 2011
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:03:18 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] north meeting?
In-Reply-To: <1311796946.87624.YahooMailNeo@web130124.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CADmzSSgRSjyhFpPuWnh2FQAwrsEBvLhDkzHiz3pgcYM6pkBPPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KGLFF105ZZqxtbVQQpyLExHJnfMT4u35jRCYW6ExCpv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KEk6Tj3MOKprRgwQ5OPibDa+MyNg=wrAgWBAWAR3F=dfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1311796946.87624.YahooMailNeo@web130124.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSiNQzKkEC7e=QuYeAYP0CJO0Rm0pTPC=NNKrNCrV7mm-w@mail.gmail.com>

There is a venu and a talk.  I am only 1/2 commited to going.   I am
in the middle of fixing my AC, and that needs to be done before I
leave for OH friday morning.  and I have a few other things...

btw, 21 was last week.  Tomorrow is 28.



On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Julie Bell <jmwebstuff at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is there a North meeting July 21st?
>
> From: Dean Sellis <dean at gianthead.net>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] north meeting?
>
> And I won't talk so much this time.
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Dean Sellis <dean at gianthead.net> wrote:
>
> Praxis can host again at our offices in Lake Forest.
> I've been playing around with Pump recently and I could give a brief
> presentation about it. ?It would follow up well with my web framework talk
> from the last north meeting.
> Regards,
> Dean
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
> wrote:
>
> 2 days till 4th Thurs. ?anyone have a room or something to talk about?
>
> --
> Carl K
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>



-- 
Carl K

From brianhray at gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 02:12:42 2011
From: brianhray at gmail.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:12:42 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] north meeting?
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSiNQzKkEC7e=QuYeAYP0CJO0Rm0pTPC=NNKrNCrV7mm-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgRSjyhFpPuWnh2FQAwrsEBvLhDkzHiz3pgcYM6pkBPPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KGLFF105ZZqxtbVQQpyLExHJnfMT4u35jRCYW6ExCpv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KEk6Tj3MOKprRgwQ5OPibDa+MyNg=wrAgWBAWAR3F=dfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1311796946.87624.YahooMailNeo@web130124.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CADmzSSiNQzKkEC7e=QuYeAYP0CJO0Rm0pTPC=NNKrNCrV7mm-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANKg38vhA-nuD0fKKMH4rzKChDp=8==SBLXs=hPdNJgbycbWWA@mail.gmail.com>

I posted the meeting to the chipy website: http://chipy.org/

From dean at gianthead.net  Thu Jul 28 04:52:14 2011
From: dean at gianthead.net (Dean Sellis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:52:14 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] north meeting?
In-Reply-To: <CANKg38vhA-nuD0fKKMH4rzKChDp=8==SBLXs=hPdNJgbycbWWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSgRSjyhFpPuWnh2FQAwrsEBvLhDkzHiz3pgcYM6pkBPPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KGLFF105ZZqxtbVQQpyLExHJnfMT4u35jRCYW6ExCpv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP4U7KEk6Tj3MOKprRgwQ5OPibDa+MyNg=wrAgWBAWAR3F=dfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1311796946.87624.YahooMailNeo@web130124.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CADmzSSiNQzKkEC7e=QuYeAYP0CJO0Rm0pTPC=NNKrNCrV7mm-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANKg38vhA-nuD0fKKMH4rzKChDp=8==SBLXs=hPdNJgbycbWWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP4U7KGQKoHqxpR2QdLWbzJVXjxfb2xVpn38p9C2VneY5yFOHw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not talking for 50 minutes again. :)

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Brian Ray <brianhray at gmail.com> wrote:

> I posted the meeting to the chipy website: http://chipy.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 10:49:57 2011
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 01:49:57 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <4E2CE275.1020605@des.truct.org>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rYpg9azNKp+m0boHRyxP5+xYH3=CqaC6cSmSTzA_vZw3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TY3ffuxPN75U=Tw01Mif65=9gP1ZpGTai2_LHRp4fO6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TJFfaTOus3mUFmQ2m3oyZDR1QkORc1XEQxnkHFxDJAMQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=nFPte1EgPOSgtfRiZGQmB6ms6-E2FkTRmOHR-sazRUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE275.1020605@des.truct.org>
Message-ID: <CAPJgG3TMPHCGhpwU98m5xOTvL35+Oig6DKE0EM2fz1_8XCJYcA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Eric Stein <toba at des.truct.org> wrote:

> CC me when you've got a carpool set up.
>
> Eric
>

No plans to include USAers in Pycon / Havana.

I understand "Americans" are forbidden to visit Cuba and there likely won't
be time to change the rules before it happens.

More like a EuroPython, with Canadians, Brazilians etc.  Watch your
calendars.

Kirby

> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:42 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Apropos of my hijacking this thread, anyone interested in Pycon /
> Havana?
> >>
> >> Feel free to accept my invitation to go off list with that interest.
>
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From shekay at pobox.com  Thu Jul 28 15:39:56 2011
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 08:39:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAPJgG3TMPHCGhpwU98m5xOTvL35+Oig6DKE0EM2fz1_8XCJYcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rYpg9azNKp+m0boHRyxP5+xYH3=CqaC6cSmSTzA_vZw3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TY3ffuxPN75U=Tw01Mif65=9gP1ZpGTai2_LHRp4fO6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TJFfaTOus3mUFmQ2m3oyZDR1QkORc1XEQxnkHFxDJAMQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=nFPte1EgPOSgtfRiZGQmB6ms6-E2FkTRmOHR-sazRUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE275.1020605@des.truct.org>
	<CAPJgG3TMPHCGhpwU98m5xOTvL35+Oig6DKE0EM2fz1_8XCJYcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_rbj65F7ExDSmYuJ1RdkDo6i7pzjXJPpmO6=u0MR6TiJ=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:49 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Eric Stein <toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
>>
>> CC me when you've got a carpool set up.
>>
>> Eric
>
> No plans to include USAers in Pycon / Havana.
> I understand "Americans" are?forbidden to visit Cuba and there likely won't
> be time to change the rules before it happens.
> More like a EuroPython, with Canadians, Brazilians etc. ?Watch your
> calendars.
> Kirby

I have no idea how long it would take a USArian to get permission to
travel to Cuba, but it is not entirely true that we are forbidden to
visit.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html#entry_requirements

Looks like attendees could travel under some of the categories such as
the ones for journalist, videographers, researchers, instructors, or
professionals traveling to conferences.





-- 
sheila

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 16:34:36 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 09:34:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <CAHCs_rbj65F7ExDSmYuJ1RdkDo6i7pzjXJPpmO6=u0MR6TiJ=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJD01wo7xy8W5gioHAV8tuo4QtD6tGFMQuuSRs+qo2EpCpYG1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwonZO0Pe3RUUe=Noa+pzY2TTdsWqkyr_X7j_Mj2ArH5ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFRnB2X3qu0DM4u2kp3kkWDwnA6NRkYy8YXVVSk5vnD4zhnGcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+VOWAGncqNn_u8fJRv1hS0EXE_FxO-dDsXOP7U9N5hbSG9KVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrfjmpejgvZKKUiYnW0fmEKC-Z2HN-sNjoKKQE=wG-F6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wqP_hcTr1Jz6qPtQOpZOPEZVOwxLmQFaw_gwriN4vifZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3SdWVhv07fts0y6u4Bfw9sEWkYKftiDHjK=O-n3G-CzSA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wq6NyZ5GL=dkPxjUZfw0X8gKqZ-vYwwkm+D321dDvq7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rYpg9azNKp+m0boHRyxP5+xYH3=CqaC6cSmSTzA_vZw3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TY3ffuxPN75U=Tw01Mif65=9gP1ZpGTai2_LHRp4fO6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TJFfaTOus3mUFmQ2m3oyZDR1QkORc1XEQxnkHFxDJAMQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=nFPte1EgPOSgtfRiZGQmB6ms6-E2FkTRmOHR-sazRUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE275.1020605@des.truct.org>
	<CAPJgG3TMPHCGhpwU98m5xOTvL35+Oig6DKE0EM2fz1_8XCJYcA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHCs_rbj65F7ExDSmYuJ1RdkDo6i7pzjXJPpmO6=u0MR6TiJ=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1znnMCDA_CQ1b=dedGgNARV4ypTTt-odECgOheUk+phG=A@mail.gmail.com>

Emmanuel Goldstein visited there. I remember since they did a bunch of
off the hook episodes. I guess its not that difficult.

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 8:39 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:49 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Eric Stein <toba at des.truct.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> CC me when you've got a carpool set up.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> No plans to include USAers in Pycon / Havana.
>> I understand "Americans" are?forbidden to visit Cuba and there likely won't
>> be time to change the rules before it happens.
>> More like a EuroPython, with Canadians, Brazilians etc. ?Watch your
>> calendars.
>> Kirby
>
> I have no idea how long it would take a USArian to get permission to
> travel to Cuba, but it is not entirely true that we are forbidden to
> visit.
>
> http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html#entry_requirements
>
> Looks like attendees could travel under some of the categories such as
> the ones for journalist, videographers, researchers, instructors, or
> professionals traveling to conferences.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 21:12:59 2011
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:12:59 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
Message-ID: <CAPJgG3S9xtzpv2+JU7DgvPtP2jkrV=-5OjUHcs5ktfowem8-PQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> > I have no idea how long it would take a USArian to get permission to
> > travel to Cuba, but it is not entirely true that we are forbidden to
> > visit.
> >
> >
> http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html#entry_requirements
> >
> > Looks like attendees could travel under some of the categories such as
> > the ones for journalist, videographers, researchers, instructors, or
> > professionals traveling to conferences.
> >
>
> Yes, my associate Glenn Baker has helped lead a number
of groups to Cuba consisting of retired US military brass
interested in meeting Castro etc.  (cdi.org was the organization
behind these tours).

University of Havana participated in the Pi Challenge held
last Pi Day (3.14), which was to compute pi to 1000 places
using a specific convergent series invented by Ramanujan.

A lot of the themes concern open source more generally.
Before we do a Pycon, we might have a more OSCON-like
event with a Python track.

The PSF snake is huddled with the Perl Foundation camel
in the OSCON exhibit hall this year.  I'll have some pictures.

Not sure of Unilever will be a sponsor but maybe (owner
of Liptons and Ben & Jerry's, already has operations in
Cuba.  As Anglo-Dutch, they're not under the same
restrictions that keep out rival Procter & Gamble).

Small Cuban IT shops and start ups are a phenomenon
these days.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17190349/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/t/cuba-embraces-open-source-software/
(chronicles Richard Stallman's visit in 2007)

http://publicintelligence.net/ufouo-open-source-center-cuban-independent-blogging-political-activism-grows/
(regarding Cuban blogosphere, 2010)

Kirby
from OSCON
@thekirbster
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 21:14:45 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:14:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
In-Reply-To: <CAPJgG3S9xtzpv2+JU7DgvPtP2jkrV=-5OjUHcs5ktfowem8-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJgG3S9xtzpv2+JU7DgvPtP2jkrV=-5OjUHcs5ktfowem8-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=r-oR6dL7ZsnT2Fdek-CVYVD=Yg+X_BUQMraBAwbrSkQ@mail.gmail.com>

PyCuba would be pretty awesome. I really like the idea.

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 2:12 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I have no idea how long it would take a USArian to get permission to
>> > travel to Cuba, but it is not entirely true that we are forbidden to
>> > visit.
>> >
>> >
>> > http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html#entry_requirements
>> >
>> > Looks like attendees could travel under some of the categories such as
>> > the ones for journalist, videographers, researchers, instructors, or
>> > professionals traveling to conferences.
>> >
>>
> Yes, my associate Glenn Baker has helped lead a number
> of groups to Cuba consisting of retired US military brass
> interested in meeting Castro etc. ?(cdi.org was the organization
> behind these tours).
> University of Havana participated in the Pi Challenge held
> last Pi Day (3.14), which was to compute pi to 1000 places
> using a specific convergent series invented by Ramanujan.
> A lot of the themes concern?open source more generally.
> Before we do a Pycon, we might have a more OSCON-like
> event with a Python track.
> The PSF snake is huddled with the Perl Foundation camel
> in the OSCON exhibit hall this year. ?I'll have some pictures.
> Not sure of Unilever will be a sponsor but maybe (owner
> of Liptons and Ben & Jerry's, already has operations in
> Cuba. ?As Anglo-Dutch, they're not under the same
> restrictions that keep out rival Procter & Gamble).
> Small Cuban IT shops and start ups are a phenomenon
> these days.
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17190349/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/t/cuba-embraces-open-source-software/
> (chronicles Richard Stallman's visit in 2007)
> http://publicintelligence.net/ufouo-open-source-center-cuban-independent-blogging-political-activism-grows/
> (regarding Cuban blogosphere, 2010)
> Kirby
> from OSCON
> @thekirbster
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From g at rre.tt  Thu Jul 28 21:16:55 2011
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:16:55 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1z=r-oR6dL7ZsnT2Fdek-CVYVD=Yg+X_BUQMraBAwbrSkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJgG3S9xtzpv2+JU7DgvPtP2jkrV=-5OjUHcs5ktfowem8-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=r-oR6dL7ZsnT2Fdek-CVYVD=Yg+X_BUQMraBAwbrSkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACU=p6srzYcrLvxW8DsEuCBZcaNx9Ch-vUc0w6Qsbd48fej3hQ@mail.gmail.com>

Doesn't Cuba outlaw computers?
On Jul 28, 2011 12:15 PM, "Joshua Herman" <zitterbewegung at gmail.com> wrote:
> PyCuba would be pretty awesome. I really like the idea.
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 2:12 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>> > I have no idea how long it would take a USArian to get permission to
>>> > travel to Cuba, but it is not entirely true that we are forbidden to
>>> > visit.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html#entry_requirements
>>> >
>>> > Looks like attendees could travel under some of the categories such as
>>> > the ones for journalist, videographers, researchers, instructors, or
>>> > professionals traveling to conferences.
>>> >
>>>
>> Yes, my associate Glenn Baker has helped lead a number
>> of groups to Cuba consisting of retired US military brass
>> interested in meeting Castro etc.  (cdi.org was the organization
>> behind these tours).
>> University of Havana participated in the Pi Challenge held
>> last Pi Day (3.14), which was to compute pi to 1000 places
>> using a specific convergent series invented by Ramanujan.
>> A lot of the themes concern open source more generally.
>> Before we do a Pycon, we might have a more OSCON-like
>> event with a Python track.
>> The PSF snake is huddled with the Perl Foundation camel
>> in the OSCON exhibit hall this year.  I'll have some pictures.
>> Not sure of Unilever will be a sponsor but maybe (owner
>> of Liptons and Ben & Jerry's, already has operations in
>> Cuba.  As Anglo-Dutch, they're not under the same
>> restrictions that keep out rival Procter & Gamble).
>> Small Cuban IT shops and start ups are a phenomenon
>> these days.
>>
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17190349/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/t/cuba-embraces-open-source-software/
>> (chronicles Richard Stallman's visit in 2007)
>>
http://publicintelligence.net/ufouo-open-source-center-cuban-independent-blogging-political-activism-grows/
>> (regarding Cuban blogosphere, 2010)
>> Kirby
>> from OSCON
>> @thekirbster
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 21:18:46 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:18:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
In-Reply-To: <CACU=p6srzYcrLvxW8DsEuCBZcaNx9Ch-vUc0w6Qsbd48fej3hQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJgG3S9xtzpv2+JU7DgvPtP2jkrV=-5OjUHcs5ktfowem8-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=r-oR6dL7ZsnT2Fdek-CVYVD=Yg+X_BUQMraBAwbrSkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACU=p6srzYcrLvxW8DsEuCBZcaNx9Ch-vUc0w6Qsbd48fej3hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zmEM9vVPAbGNSQyLYMeB9n0G17wiBJGfJfcEfQDQQT49g@mail.gmail.com>

No. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7381646.stm

From g at rre.tt  Thu Jul 28 21:21:35 2011
From: g at rre.tt (Garrett Smith)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:21:35 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zmEM9vVPAbGNSQyLYMeB9n0G17wiBJGfJfcEfQDQQT49g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJgG3S9xtzpv2+JU7DgvPtP2jkrV=-5OjUHcs5ktfowem8-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=r-oR6dL7ZsnT2Fdek-CVYVD=Yg+X_BUQMraBAwbrSkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACU=p6srzYcrLvxW8DsEuCBZcaNx9Ch-vUc0w6Qsbd48fej3hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zmEM9vVPAbGNSQyLYMeB9n0G17wiBJGfJfcEfQDQQT49g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACU=p6tf86pOk9Yx5EVCyzp7o3T8BbNdUNiPYKOyVKF5T=knWw@mail.gmail.com>

Ah. Totally missed that one. Awesome!
On Jul 28, 2011 12:19 PM, "Joshua Herman" <zitterbewegung at gmail.com> wrote:
> No. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7381646.stm
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 21:34:10 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:34:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
In-Reply-To: <CACU=p6tf86pOk9Yx5EVCyzp7o3T8BbNdUNiPYKOyVKF5T=knWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPJgG3S9xtzpv2+JU7DgvPtP2jkrV=-5OjUHcs5ktfowem8-PQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1z=r-oR6dL7ZsnT2Fdek-CVYVD=Yg+X_BUQMraBAwbrSkQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACU=p6srzYcrLvxW8DsEuCBZcaNx9Ch-vUc0w6Qsbd48fej3hQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zmEM9vVPAbGNSQyLYMeB9n0G17wiBJGfJfcEfQDQQT49g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACU=p6tf86pOk9Yx5EVCyzp7o3T8BbNdUNiPYKOyVKF5T=knWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1z=G7mbuOzXh3eWC8q6uYcEhWV4QPruGfHk8ShM8s=dOWw@mail.gmail.com>

This is off topic but garret is my google different than yours? I have
heard that it does some personalization stuff
google this

cuba computers

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Garrett Smith <g at rre.tt> wrote:
> Ah. Totally missed that one. Awesome!
>
> On Jul 28, 2011 12:19 PM, "Joshua Herman" <zitterbewegung at gmail.com> wrote:
>> No. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7381646.stm
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From maney at two14.net  Fri Jul 29 06:07:22 2011
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:07:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Let's you and him fight (Was: Kickstarter)
In-Reply-To: <20016.5590.424646.653968@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<CA55CDB5-52A6-4DCB-BCC6-A4C3FC2166D6@yahoo.com>
	<20016.5590.424646.653968@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20110729040722.GA13162@furrr.two14.net>

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 08:42:46AM -0500, skip at pobox.com wrote:
> I think it's best for all concerned to accept the occasional apparent insult
> as something along those lines, especially if you don't personally know the
> parties involved.  If the back-and-forth escalates into something you can't
> plausibly interpret as online fun-poking, then, sure, call the
> participant(s) on it.

Or, as we used to put it back in the Fight-O-Net days, "Don't be
excessively annoying, and don't be too easily annoyed."  But if you
must be hurt on someone else's behalf, remember that you can reply
off-list, and that's often more effective.

Besides, this promises to be much more entertaining than the web app
deployment tool of the week (that is what it's Pythonic to reinvent
this year, isn't it?) if we let them get a few rounds of digs in.

-- 
You arguably have quite a few inalienable rights,
but being taken seriously isn't one of them.
Neither is being respected.  -- Rick Moen  <linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/>

Yeah, and don't take seriously what is most likely someone else's weird
sense of humor, that should have been the third rule.  -- /me

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Fri Jul 29 06:11:22 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:11:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Let's you and him fight (Was: Kickstarter)
In-Reply-To: <20110729040722.GA13162@furrr.two14.net>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<CA55CDB5-52A6-4DCB-BCC6-A4C3FC2166D6@yahoo.com>
	<20016.5590.424646.653968@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<20110729040722.GA13162@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zncD7MzoxZ4rQWsOQKn5tQtrQQwQNBaLq3s5F94y9k8zQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think we need a rules of chicago python users group? I remember from
pycon that the pythonic way there is one way to do something.

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 08:42:46AM -0500, skip at pobox.com wrote:
>> I think it's best for all concerned to accept the occasional apparent insult
>> as something along those lines, especially if you don't personally know the
>> parties involved. ?If the back-and-forth escalates into something you can't
>> plausibly interpret as online fun-poking, then, sure, call the
>> participant(s) on it.
>
> Or, as we used to put it back in the Fight-O-Net days, "Don't be
> excessively annoying, and don't be too easily annoyed." ?But if you
> must be hurt on someone else's behalf, remember that you can reply
> off-list, and that's often more effective.
>
> Besides, this promises to be much more entertaining than the web app
> deployment tool of the week (that is what it's Pythonic to reinvent
> this year, isn't it?) if we let them get a few rounds of digs in.
>
> --
> You arguably have quite a few inalienable rights,
> but being taken seriously isn't one of them.
> Neither is being respected. ?-- Rick Moen ?<linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/>
>
> Yeah, and don't take seriously what is most likely someone else's weird
> sense of humor, that should have been the third rule. ?-- /me
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From maney at two14.net  Fri Jul 29 06:12:26 2011
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:12:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zmnFRsxbEDdPB7_YDoYsXMRvH2U=txz0SmxnuYmoMjyZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com>
	<4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
	<CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zmnFRsxbEDdPB7_YDoYsXMRvH2U=txz0SmxnuYmoMjyZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110729041226.GB13162@furrr.two14.net>

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 09:45:52AM -0500, Joshua Herman wrote:
> Russell's paradox.

Russell cannot consistently assert this statement.

-- 
Q: What do you get when programmers design a language
   while trying to get something else done?
A: PHP  -- Jeremy H. Brown


From maney at two14.net  Fri Jul 29 06:33:38 2011
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:33:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Let's you and him fight (Was: Kickstarter)
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zncD7MzoxZ4rQWsOQKn5tQtrQQwQNBaLq3s5F94y9k8zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<CA55CDB5-52A6-4DCB-BCC6-A4C3FC2166D6@yahoo.com>
	<20016.5590.424646.653968@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<20110729040722.GA13162@furrr.two14.net>
	<CAB3V1zncD7MzoxZ4rQWsOQKn5tQtrQQwQNBaLq3s5F94y9k8zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110729043338.GC13162@furrr.two14.net>

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:11:22PM -0500, Joshua Herman wrote:
> I think we need a rules of chicago python users group? I remember from
> pycon that the pythonic way there is one way to do something.

It's more a guideline than a rule.  :-)


From brianherman at gmail.com  Fri Jul 29 09:40:27 2011
From: brianherman at gmail.com (Brian Herman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 02:40:27 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Let's you and him fight (Was: Kickstarter)
In-Reply-To: <20110729043338.GC13162@furrr.two14.net>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<CA55CDB5-52A6-4DCB-BCC6-A4C3FC2166D6@yahoo.com>
	<20016.5590.424646.653968@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<20110729040722.GA13162@furrr.two14.net>
	<CAB3V1zncD7MzoxZ4rQWsOQKn5tQtrQQwQNBaLq3s5F94y9k8zQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110729043338.GC13162@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <CAJD01wo=yWcOYxuybpqBjek1S7z=7vTW49abp8cjevLG03C5GA@mail.gmail.com>

So insult off list?
On Jul 28, 2011 11:33 PM, "Martin Maney" <maney at two14.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:11:22PM -0500, Joshua Herman wrote:
>> I think we need a rules of chicago python users group? I remember from
>> pycon that the pythonic way there is one way to do something.
>
> It's more a guideline than a rule. :-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Fri Jul 29 12:28:30 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 05:28:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <20110729041226.GB13162@furrr.two14.net>
References: <CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
	<CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zmnFRsxbEDdPB7_YDoYsXMRvH2U=txz0SmxnuYmoMjyZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110729041226.GB13162@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zmjuN+L9C5x_c=rStZV3VrGaLhOCnMPN5Xo3RgWU2wL3w@mail.gmail.com>

Yea so you add classes to your set theory and then you can assert it.

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 09:45:52AM -0500, Joshua Herman wrote:
>> Russell's paradox.
>
> Russell cannot consistently assert this statement.
>
> --
> Q: What do you get when programmers design a language
> ? while trying to get something else done?
> A: PHP ?-- Jeremy H. Brown
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Fri Jul 29 12:32:47 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 05:32:47 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] PyPy
In-Reply-To: <20110729041226.GB13162@furrr.two14.net>
References: <CAMXtMFB+5EUYAP_ZEkVx--P0oNm3vZBbR4ZY7zYLb562oQNvnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CBAF5.1030607@threecrickets.com>
	<CAFRnB2XSLqBYhQ_9MwZHm61X2ZXiSEe6P-LG-cXJpATWe6QdVA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJD01wrxRsRvaZx_i4bDGrQ9ux=PXAOxCLqcL5ywpkvsqjGs2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2CE70B.3010209@threecrickets.com> <4E2E488E.3090300@des.truct.org>
	<CAHCs_rZcnigEfeBwq6FW9qdw=fEZ1nQAbD5x6pq1=HyCFxqFfg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E2EC2FC.5040306@threecrickets.com>
	<CADmzSSh2kEE4TDFMZGZSdwBGxr3Cw9-RzpNRHB_=Mu2X_9o5=A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zmnFRsxbEDdPB7_YDoYsXMRvH2U=txz0SmxnuYmoMjyZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110729041226.GB13162@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1znZDNDWQdk_JcMEhhMxTv5NNtevg1dhS5F3NcYEJJw-xA@mail.gmail.com>

Or you can add types.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_theory#1900_-_1927 and now you have
one of the foundations of computer science.

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 09:45:52AM -0500, Joshua Herman wrote:
>> Russell's paradox.
>
> Russell cannot consistently assert this statement.
>
> --
> Q: What do you get when programmers design a language
> ? while trying to get something else done?
> A: PHP ?-- Jeremy H. Brown
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From emperorcezar at gmail.com  Fri Jul 29 15:19:20 2011
From: emperorcezar at gmail.com (Adam Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 08:19:20 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Let's you and him fight (Was: Kickstarter)
In-Reply-To: <CAJD01wo=yWcOYxuybpqBjek1S7z=7vTW49abp8cjevLG03C5GA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<CA55CDB5-52A6-4DCB-BCC6-A4C3FC2166D6@yahoo.com>
	<20016.5590.424646.653968@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<20110729040722.GA13162@furrr.two14.net>
	<CAB3V1zncD7MzoxZ4rQWsOQKn5tQtrQQwQNBaLq3s5F94y9k8zQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110729043338.GC13162@furrr.two14.net>
	<CAJD01wo=yWcOYxuybpqBjek1S7z=7vTW49abp8cjevLG03C5GA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN6vQqs5c3r-FO7kxC_9Berx84PUwwvfq6d1vBCfiMrcA7Fn5A@mail.gmail.com>

On other lists I use some people who reply to others off list all the
time. Their purpose is to insult or sweet talk you where others can't
see. All the while, being technically polite and kind in public view.

Replying on-list makes sure you have your "public face" on. Calling
someone out isn't very effective in private, it also lets other have
the impression that it's ok to do.

This whole discussion is off-topic. The guy I called out was hopefully
just ribbing the other and the recipient says he's cool.

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 2:40 AM, Brian Herman <brianherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> So insult off list?
>
> On Jul 28, 2011 11:33 PM, "Martin Maney" <maney at two14.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:11:22PM -0500, Joshua Herman wrote:
>>> I think we need a rules of chicago python users group? I remember from
>>> pycon that the pythonic way there is one way to do something.
>>
>> It's more a guideline than a rule. :-)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From christianzlong at gmail.com  Sun Jul 31 10:25:51 2011
From: christianzlong at gmail.com (Christian Long)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 03:25:51 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.20.1311933602.22887.chicago@python.org>
References: <mailman.20.1311933602.22887.chicago@python.org>
Message-ID: <4E35118F.7090103@gmail.com>



On 7/29/2011 5:00 AM, chicago-request at python.org wrote:
>
> Doesn't Cuba outlaw computers?
>

The only computers allowed in private hands are those imported before 
the revolution. Hence the "univaqueros" and their lovingly-tended 
machines. All those tubes are hand-blown, due to the embargo.

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sun Jul 31 18:14:23 2011
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:14:23 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
In-Reply-To: <4E35118F.7090103@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.20.1311933602.22887.chicago@python.org>
	<4E35118F.7090103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJgG3TX1Gp3MhO5tcmQzFW=Z6vdm5nGz51YiEdDGioL146dAw@mail.gmail.com>

This article finally mentions open source in the last two paragraphs:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/09/02/cuba-usa-piracy-idUSN0222000820100902

Of course there's nothing to stop not-USA hardware vendors from installing
state of the art equipment at the University of Havana or even in someone's
home.

However, in a small island culture people gossip a lot and it's hard to keep
any secrets from those playing a role in government, news travels fast.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7381646.stm

The flow chart I'm looking at shows people smuggling in a lot of hardware,
or just importing it in the clear.

The lift on personal computer use and optical fiber from Venezuela suggests
we could do a Pycon there in the pretty near future.

By "we" I don't necessarily mean to include unfree USAers, political
prisoners of their own laws in this case.

Of course geeks are less unfree++ (double plus unfree) as they can post to
servers in Cuba right now if they want to, via various proxies.  No
problemo.

Kirby


On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 1:25 AM, Christian Long <christianzlong at gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On 7/29/2011 5:00 AM, chicago-request at python.org wrote:
>
>>
>> Doesn't Cuba outlaw computers?
>>
>>
> The only computers allowed in private hands are those imported before the
> revolution. Hence the "univaqueros" and their lovingly-tended machines. All
> those tubes are hand-blown, due to the embargo.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/chicago<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>
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From zitterbewegung at gmail.com  Sun Jul 31 19:08:24 2011
From: zitterbewegung at gmail.com (Joshua Herman)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:08:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
In-Reply-To: <CAPJgG3TX1Gp3MhO5tcmQzFW=Z6vdm5nGz51YiEdDGioL146dAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.20.1311933602.22887.chicago@python.org>
	<4E35118F.7090103@gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TX1Gp3MhO5tcmQzFW=Z6vdm5nGz51YiEdDGioL146dAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3V1zm5n+bnB7W0EWQSKm4-=DCZ6t++JtnK2tL0FSDg9fuHtQ@mail.gmail.com>

The best part is that we could get cuban hotel food!

On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 11:14 AM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:
> This article finally mentions open source in the last two paragraphs:
>
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/09/02/cuba-usa-piracy-idUSN0222000820100902
>
> Of course there's nothing to stop not-USA hardware vendors from installing
> state of the art equipment at the University of Havana or even in someone's
> home.
>
> However, in a small island culture people gossip a lot and it's hard to keep
> any secrets from those playing a role in government, news travels fast.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7381646.stm
>
> The flow chart I'm looking at shows people smuggling in a lot of hardware,
> or just importing it in the clear.
>
> The lift on personal computer use and optical fiber from Venezuela suggests
> we could do a Pycon there in the pretty near future.
>
> By "we" I don't necessarily mean to include unfree USAers, political
> prisoners of their own laws in this case.
>
> Of course geeks are less unfree++ (double plus unfree) as they can post to
> servers in Cuba right now if they want to, via various proxies.? No
> problemo.
>
> Kirby
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 1:25 AM, Christian Long <christianzlong at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 7/29/2011 5:00 AM, chicago-request at python.org wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't Cuba outlaw computers?
>>>
>>
>> The only computers allowed in private hands are those imported before the
>> revolution. Hence the "univaqueros" and their lovingly-tended machines. All
>> those tubes are hand-blown, due to the embargo.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From kirby.urner at gmail.com  Sun Jul 31 19:51:06 2011
From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:51:06 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
In-Reply-To: <CAB3V1zm5n+bnB7W0EWQSKm4-=DCZ6t++JtnK2tL0FSDg9fuHtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.20.1311933602.22887.chicago@python.org>
	<4E35118F.7090103@gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TX1Gp3MhO5tcmQzFW=Z6vdm5nGz51YiEdDGioL146dAw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zm5n+bnB7W0EWQSKm4-=DCZ6t++JtnK2tL0FSDg9fuHtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPJgG3Q2yUW9khOHV9GBuPT6ypaGrdPfb-_qW2GdwaAziYSXJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>wrote:

> The best part is that we could get cuban hotel food!
>

That's a whole other thread for when the time comes.

There's a media campaign to defend Cuba against fast food chains, on the
same logic Disney World uses to keep out KFC or whatever competitors
(Vatican likewise).

"Slow food" is popular in Europe as well, a kind of blowback as this aspect
of USA culture is somewhat despised in many zip code areas (97214 included).

Picture of me outside Cuban restaurant with Alex Aris and physicist Bob
Fuller.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/5584181036/in/set-72157627320573000/

An entire city that's McDonald's Free is a tourism / convention destination
just for that reason among some elites.

I know some geeks who'd like at least one of the food lines at some of these
conferences to feature raw vegan, other such options, made by other geeks
(O'Reilly has a new cookbook).

http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596805890 (raw vegan is a main feature of the
Blue House diet, where we have offices **).

OSCON featured Ben & Jerry's ice cream, hardly vegan, but a Unilever product
(one of the companies with a presence in Cuba).

Such experiments, overlapping with "quantified self movement", are already a
part of the health and lifestyles track at OSCONs, although it's so far more
talking than doing at the conference itself.

I did go through an inflated obstacle course in one of the time slots at
OSCON 2011.

Other activities included a kind of horizontal bungee game and a log rolling
exercise (all inflatables).  I'm sure you can find pictures of these games.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/5979787797/in/set-72157627166240377

Anyway, I won't keep adding to this thread on ChiPy as I think we've got it
in the ballpark and details might be hashed out elsewhere (e.g. Diversity).

Ciao for now, back to lurking,

Kirby Urner
thekirbster @ Flickr
follow @psf_snake on Twitter

** including last night, Chairman Steve (PSF) one of our dinner guests,
always game to try something new
http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2011/07/bizmotica.html
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From danieltpeters at gmail.com  Sun Jul 31 21:05:58 2011
From: danieltpeters at gmail.com (Daniel Peters)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 14:05:58 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon / Havana (hijacked GIL thread)
In-Reply-To: <CAPJgG3Q2yUW9khOHV9GBuPT6ypaGrdPfb-_qW2GdwaAziYSXJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.20.1311933602.22887.chicago@python.org>
	<4E35118F.7090103@gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3TX1Gp3MhO5tcmQzFW=Z6vdm5nGz51YiEdDGioL146dAw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3V1zm5n+bnB7W0EWQSKm4-=DCZ6t++JtnK2tL0FSDg9fuHtQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPJgG3Q2yUW9khOHV9GBuPT6ypaGrdPfb-_qW2GdwaAziYSXJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHzLg+ZvhEnxv4N6Fp2AZUn7kX1Su2Jbrz-eRHgNzRQGhZqv9Q@mail.gmail.com>

This was a cool thread!  I had no idea about the import ban on computer tech
in cuba.

On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 12:51 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Joshua Herman <zitterbewegung at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> The best part is that we could get cuban hotel food!
>>
>
> That's a whole other thread for when the time comes.
>
> There's a media campaign to defend Cuba against fast food chains, on the
> same logic Disney World uses to keep out KFC or whatever competitors
> (Vatican likewise).
>
> "Slow food" is popular in Europe as well, a kind of blowback as this aspect
> of USA culture is somewhat despised in many zip code areas (97214 included).
>
> Picture of me outside Cuban restaurant with Alex Aris and physicist Bob
> Fuller.
>
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/5584181036/in/set-72157627320573000/
>
> An entire city that's McDonald's Free is a tourism / convention destination
> just for that reason among some elites.
>
> I know some geeks who'd like at least one of the food lines at some of
> these conferences to feature raw vegan, other such options, made by other
> geeks (O'Reilly has a new cookbook).
>
> http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596805890 (raw vegan is a main feature of
> the Blue House diet, where we have offices **).
>
> OSCON featured Ben & Jerry's ice cream, hardly vegan, but a Unilever
> product (one of the companies with a presence in Cuba).
>
> Such experiments, overlapping with "quantified self movement", are already
> a part of the health and lifestyles track at OSCONs, although it's so far
> more talking than doing at the conference itself.
>
> I did go through an inflated obstacle course in one of the time slots at
> OSCON 2011.
>
> Other activities included a kind of horizontal bungee game and a log
> rolling exercise (all inflatables).  I'm sure you can find pictures of these
> games.
>
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/5979787797/in/set-72157627166240377
>
> Anyway, I won't keep adding to this thread on ChiPy as I think we've got it
> in the ballpark and details might be hashed out elsewhere (e.g. Diversity).
>
> Ciao for now, back to lurking,
>
> Kirby Urner
> thekirbster @ Flickr
> follow @psf_snake on Twitter
>
> ** including last night, Chairman Steve (PSF) one of our dinner guests,
> always game to try something new
> http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2011/07/bizmotica.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From jbholman at gmail.com  Wed Jul 27 16:01:37 2011
From: jbholman at gmail.com (Jeff Holman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 09:01:37 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Kickstarter Fund to get rid of the GIL
In-Reply-To: <20016.5590.424646.653968@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <mailman.6863.1311524616.1163.chicago@python.org>
	<CA55CDB5-52A6-4DCB-BCC6-A4C3FC2166D6@yahoo.com>
	<20016.5590.424646.653968@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <CAGgxL9bmSjos2DYs31g7qo19BVOFsw+eHgO2HZ6t7Ru7wWWSZA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I think it's best for all concerned to accept the occasional apparent
> insult
> as something along those lines, especially if you don't personally know the
> parties involved.  If the back-and-forth escalates into something you can't
> plausibly interpret as online fun-poking, then, sure, call the
> participant(s) on it.
>
>
As a lurker considering coming to my first meeting, I'm actually glad
somebody made a big deal about it.  This kind of
put-down/insult/attitude turns me away from many activities involving other
programmers.  So I'm glad somebody mistakenly thought it was very rude, and
that it was all cleared up as friendly banter between two people who know
each other as a small part of an otherwise intelligent and thought-provoking
conversation.  I'm A-OK with that.  If nobody had spoken up, I never would
have known it was all in good fun.
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