From buthaina2018 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 11:22:39 2016
From: buthaina2018 at gmail.com (Buthaina H DC)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 10:22:39 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Finance SIG: Dec 1st @ 6PM
In-Reply-To: <CA+SrYEc5YHWqaY941vZGA8zD5cus-uz_Ji9Uy34aG6Sp=Qnoow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+SrYEc5YHWqaY941vZGA8zD5cus-uz_Ji9Uy34aG6Sp=Qnoow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN9Kmf5ur1McLfqGQ_iJij=ecXYWonw1sz2cDtAyx95wPDsPDg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,
I'm very interested in the second talk for tonight's meetup, but won't be
able to make it!
Is it possible to get notes, recording or slides ? or probably the speakers
email ??
Thank you so much!

Buthaina (Beth)


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 11:03 PM, David Matsumura <davidkunio at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi ChiPy,
>
> Thursday we have a rare doubleheader. Come out to Coding Dojo for the last
> Finance SIG of the year.
>
> https://www.meetup.com/_ChiPy_/events/235345104/
>
> Stephanie Topher will present her research on real time portfolio
> analytics and talk about the work she does at PortfolioEffect.
> Dan Temkin will talk about open datasets that you can use to build your
> models and strategies.
>
> After we finish up, you can head over to the ChiPy holiday party. Brian
> Ray has promised to save you a drink.
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/2016-November/014587.html
>
> Special thanks to Coding Dojo for hosting our event.
> http://www.codingdojo.com/
>
> Thanks
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From wirth.jason at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 19:14:15 2016
From: wirth.jason at gmail.com (Jason Wirth)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:14:15 +0000
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Message-ID: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>

Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific
go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
programming concepts.
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From jordanb at hafd.org  Thu Dec  1 19:20:59 2016
From: jordanb at hafd.org (Jordan Bettis)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 18:20:59 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5840BE6B.3070705@hafd.org>

The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't 
waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:

https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements

Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if 
you want to use it to work through the examples.

On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a 
> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting 
> time on basic programming concepts.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From tathagatadg at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 19:43:33 2016
From: tathagatadg at gmail.com (Tathagata Dasgupta)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:43:33 +0000
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <5840BE6B.3070705@hafd.org>
References: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5840BE6B.3070705@hafd.org>
Message-ID: <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw@mail.gmail.com>

I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
(terribly) of Java (version < 8).
We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
<http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what would
you recommend?
I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
of design patterns could work.
Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
Python design patterns.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:

> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>
> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>
>
> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>
> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific
> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
> programming concepts.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From carl at personnelware.com  Thu Dec  1 20:02:30 2016
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:02:30 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5840BE6B.3070705@hafd.org>
 <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSih3_V38EOXfw4vH9Ei0Wb2L+oLMpU-UY0mYwyNZk2S8Q@mail.gmail.com>

"Using Ripley and Python's Read Evaluate Print Loop, lead a group though
the basic Python syntax. The assumption is they know about programming and
need to be introduced to Python."  - https://github.com/CarlFK/Ripley/

> addresses the differences

I wonder if that is really a good use of time.  That sounds to me like
"forget what you have learned over the last 5 years" which is going to be
really hard.

I suspect time is better used just teaching good python.

But I should leave this to someone who has studied how to teach.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
> <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
> would you recommend?
> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
> of design patterns could work.
> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
> Python design patterns.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>
>> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>
>> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>
>>
>> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>
>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
>> on basic programming concepts.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>


-- 
Carl K
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From randy7771026 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 20:20:58 2016
From: randy7771026 at gmail.com (Randy Baxley)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:20:58 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMqL=ihSgv8XHC_FHnrGFtCPfchhP5OKYX_ba0R2H=VEtfOiaw@mail.gmail.com>

Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public-data-hacking.html

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com> wrote:

> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific
> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
> programming concepts.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 00:38:15 2016
From: mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com (Michael Tamillow)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 23:38:15 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CAMqL=ihSgv8XHC_FHnrGFtCPfchhP5OKYX_ba0R2H=VEtfOiaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMqL=ihSgv8XHC_FHnrGFtCPfchhP5OKYX_ba0R2H=VEtfOiaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E713DA93-27CD-4EEA-82C4-2A45E6B6241F@gmail.com>

Just on the topic of learning new things, I think it is a good idea to follow the same paths as people who are already doing it - skip forward when things are too easy, and step back when things become difficult to comprehend.

But I would say the best way to make a jump like that is to just read source code. Ask questions about the source code through google. There are tons of mature packages already with anaconda, just bust one open and try to understand it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:20 PM, Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public-data-hacking.html
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic programming concepts.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From allanlesage at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 10:12:14 2016
From: allanlesage at gmail.com (Allan LeSage)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:12:14 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5840BE6B.3070705@hafd.org>
 <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg@mail.gmail.com>

Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes
<http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk really
emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from more
verbose langs.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
> <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
> would you recommend?
> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
> of design patterns could work.
> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
> Python design patterns.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>
>> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>
>> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>
>>
>> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>
>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
>> on basic programming concepts.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From foresmac at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 10:42:16 2016
From: foresmac at gmail.com (Chris Foresman)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:42:16 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5840BE6B.3070705@hafd.org>
 <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2A938CBA-8BF3-47C2-9120-8C1742EA0D08@gmail.com>

What would you recommend for Python devs that need to learn Java (besides applying for a different job :P )?


Chris Foresman
foresmac at gmail.com




> On Dec 2, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes <http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk really emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from more verbose langs.
> 
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com <mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what would you recommend?
> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language of design patterns could work.
> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on Python design patterns. 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org <mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
> The tutorial on python.org <http://python.org/> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
> 
> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements <https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements>
> 
> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if you want to use it to work through the examples.
> 
> 
> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>> Say a hard-core Java programmer
>>         wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource that
>>         addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
>>         programming concepts.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From jdanielp at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 12:32:51 2016
From: jdanielp at gmail.com (Jonathan Pietkiewicz)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 11:32:51 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAB-8V8g8t6QCFSYxrfkTQowQSYN7Nq=i7QTyKLQkw4s1-kcQg@mail.gmail.com>

Jason,

What follows are my recommendations (in order of priority) as a relatively
new (2-3 yrs?) Python dev with nearly 20 years before that in C, C++, and
Java.

The Python tutorial Jordan mentions was a nice first step for me. (+1)
 Brett Slatkin's Effective Python helped me as I started getting my Python
legs.  I realize "Python Legs" is an odd phrase, but "sea legs" is a strong
metaphor and Effective Python is required reading, but not the first book a
new Python dev should read.

The Hettinger talk T mentions was a revelation. (+1)

Anything that emphasizes focusing on the built-in types before creating a
class is going to help.  I think the tutorial does that to some extent.

I don't have any talks/reading that covers the standard library, but I
would emphasize the power of Python's "batteries included" standard
library.  Coming from other languages to Python, or better yet, having to
go from Python to using other languages again, has driven home to me how
utterly fabulous the standard library is.  I don't google "how to do X in
python" anymore.  I search "X" in docs.python.org.

And then there's pip/conda/etc. And then there's virtualenv.  And then
there's all the power (and responsibility) that comes with dynamic typing.

Some of these are more like bullet points for new Python programmers, but
they are the progression I've followed as I've grown into Python.

Hope this helps,
Jonathan


On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com> wrote:

> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific
> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
> programming concepts.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From foresmac at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 12:49:03 2016
From: foresmac at gmail.com (Chris Foresman)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 11:49:03 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CAAB-8V8g8t6QCFSYxrfkTQowQSYN7Nq=i7QTyKLQkw4s1-kcQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAB-8V8g8t6QCFSYxrfkTQowQSYN7Nq=i7QTyKLQkw4s1-kcQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9A428E2-2719-43CE-ADFC-A1AE6D610430@gmail.com>

The Python Standard Library By Example is a huge volume, but exactly what you?re talking about as far as a resource to use Python?s ?included batteries?. There is also a website: https://pymotw.com/ <https://pymotw.com/> (Python 3 here: https://pymotw.com/3/ <http://pymotw.com/3/>)



Chris Foresman
foresmac at gmail.com




> On Dec 2, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Jonathan Pietkiewicz <jdanielp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Jason,
> 
> What follows are my recommendations (in order of priority) as a relatively new (2-3 yrs?) Python dev with nearly 20 years before that in C, C++, and Java.
> 
> The Python tutorial Jordan mentions was a nice first step for me. (+1)  Brett Slatkin's Effective Python helped me as I started getting my Python legs.  I realize "Python Legs" is an odd phrase, but "sea legs" is a strong metaphor and Effective Python is required reading, but not the first book a new Python dev should read.  
> 
> The Hettinger talk T mentions was a revelation. (+1)
> 
> Anything that emphasizes focusing on the built-in types before creating a class is going to help.  I think the tutorial does that to some extent.
> 
> I don't have any talks/reading that covers the standard library, but I would emphasize the power of Python's "batteries included" standard library.  Coming from other languages to Python, or better yet, having to go from Python to using other languages again, has driven home to me how utterly fabulous the standard library is.  I don't google "how to do X in python" anymore.  I search "X" in docs.python.org <http://docs.python.org/>.
> 
> And then there's pip/conda/etc. And then there's virtualenv.  And then there's all the power (and responsibility) that comes with dynamic typing.  
> 
> Some of these are more like bullet points for new Python programmers, but they are the progression I've followed as I've grown into Python.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Jonathan
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com <mailto:wirth.jason at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic programming concepts.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From jdanielp at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 13:41:41 2016
From: jdanielp at gmail.com (Jonathan Pietkiewicz)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 12:41:41 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <B9A428E2-2719-43CE-ADFC-A1AE6D610430@gmail.com>
References: <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAB-8V8g8t6QCFSYxrfkTQowQSYN7Nq=i7QTyKLQkw4s1-kcQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B9A428E2-2719-43CE-ADFC-A1AE6D610430@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAB-8V-tTv1mrrFoC4GB_qTDg7SZOUOpjBfynnU3twC2GbG13Q@mail.gmail.com>

How could I forget pymotw?!?  +1 absolutely a great resource.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chris Foresman <foresmac at gmail.com> wrote:

> The Python Standard Library By Example is a huge volume, but exactly what
> you?re talking about as far as a resource to use Python?s ?included
> batteries?. There is also a website: https://pymotw.com/ (Python 3 here:
> https://pymotw.com/3/)
>
>
>
> Chris Foresman
> foresmac at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Jonathan Pietkiewicz <jdanielp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Jason,
>
> What follows are my recommendations (in order of priority) as a relatively
> new (2-3 yrs?) Python dev with nearly 20 years before that in C, C++, and
> Java.
>
> The Python tutorial Jordan mentions was a nice first step for me. (+1)
>  Brett Slatkin's Effective Python helped me as I started getting my Python
> legs.  I realize "Python Legs" is an odd phrase, but "sea legs" is a strong
> metaphor and Effective Python is required reading, but not the first book a
> new Python dev should read.
>
> The Hettinger talk T mentions was a revelation. (+1)
>
> Anything that emphasizes focusing on the built-in types before creating a
> class is going to help.  I think the tutorial does that to some extent.
>
> I don't have any talks/reading that covers the standard library, but I
> would emphasize the power of Python's "batteries included" standard
> library.  Coming from other languages to Python, or better yet, having to
> go from Python to using other languages again, has driven home to me how
> utterly fabulous the standard library is.  I don't google "how to do X in
> python" anymore.  I search "X" in docs.python.org.
>
> And then there's pip/conda/etc. And then there's virtualenv.  And then
> there's all the power (and responsibility) that comes with dynamic typing.
>
> Some of these are more like bullet points for new Python programmers, but
> they are the progression I've followed as I've grown into Python.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Jonathan
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
>> on basic programming concepts.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From tanya at tickel.net  Fri Dec  2 13:27:41 2016
From: tanya at tickel.net (Tanya Schlusser)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 12:27:41 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Message-ID: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>

For the Java-to-Python,  Luciano Ramalho's Fluent Python (
http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032519.do) specifically was written
for ?migr?s from other languages :-) and apparently knocks it out of the
park.


For the Python-to-Java; implementing the same thing in different
languages/APIs was a job requirement for me ... we tested ideas in Python,
then the junior people (me...) had to translate to a different language for
production...it was a fast way to bypass conceptual questions and cut
straight to the differences between languages.


Maybe try converting a Hadoop streaming job using Python to Java?
Here's a Python entry point (this is for the old API but the newer docs are
confusing to me):
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/ElasticMapReduce/latest/DeveloperGuide/UseCase_Streaming.html




On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:00 AM, <chicago-request at python.org> wrote:

> Send Chicago mailing list submissions to
>         chicago at python.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         chicago-request at python.org
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>         chicago-owner at python.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Chicago digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Teaching Java people Python. (Jason Wirth)
>    2. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Jordan Bettis)
>    3. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Tathagata Dasgupta)
>    4. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Carl Karsten)
>    5. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Randy Baxley)
>    6. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Michael Tamillow)
>    7. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Allan LeSage)
>    8. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Chris Foresman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:14:15 +0000
> From: Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID:
>         <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific
> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
> programming concepts.
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 18:20:59 -0600
> From: Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org>
> To: chicago at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID: <5840BE6B.3070705 at hafd.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>
> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>
> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>
> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> > specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
> > time on basic programming concepts.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:43:33 +0000
> From: Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID:
>         <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw at mail.gmail.
> com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
> <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
> would
> you recommend?
> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
> of design patterns could work.
> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
> Python design patterns.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>
> > The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
> > waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
> >
> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
> >
> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> > you want to use it to work through the examples.
> >
> >
> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> >
> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> specific
> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
> basic
> > programming concepts.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/
> listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:02:30 -0600
> From: Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID:
>         <CADmzSSih3_V38EOXfw4vH9Ei0Wb2L+oLMpU-
> UY0mYwyNZk2S8Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> "Using Ripley and Python's Read Evaluate Print Loop, lead a group though
> the basic Python syntax. The assumption is they know about programming and
> need to be introduced to Python."  - https://github.com/CarlFK/Ripley/
>
> > addresses the differences
>
> I wonder if that is really a good use of time.  That sounds to me like
> "forget what you have learned over the last 5 years" which is going to be
> really hard.
>
> I suspect time is better used just teaching good python.
>
> But I should leave this to someone who has studied how to teach.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
> > would you recommend?
> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
> > of design patterns could work.
> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
> > Python design patterns.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
> >
> >> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
> >>
> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
> >>
> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> >>
> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
> time
> >> on basic programming concepts.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/
> listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Carl K
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:20:58 -0600
> From: Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID:
>         <CAMqL=ihSgv8XHC_FHnrGFtCPfchhP5OKYX_ba0R2H=VEt
> fOiaw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-
> public-data-hacking.html
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> specific
> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
> basic
> > programming concepts.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 23:38:15 -0600
> From: Michael Tamillow <mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID: <E713DA93-27CD-4EEA-82C4-2A45E6B6241F at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Just on the topic of learning new things, I think it is a good idea to
> follow the same paths as people who are already doing it - skip forward
> when things are too easy, and step back when things become difficult to
> comprehend.
>
> But I would say the best way to make a jump like that is to just read
> source code. Ask questions about the source code through google. There are
> tons of mature packages already with anaconda, just bust one open and try
> to understand it.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:20 PM, Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-
> public-data-hacking.html
> >
> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
> on basic programming concepts.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:12:14 -0600
> From: Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID:
>         <CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg@
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes
> <http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk really
> emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from more
> verbose langs.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
> > would you recommend?
> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
> > of design patterns could work.
> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
> > Python design patterns.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
> >
> >> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
> >>
> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
> >>
> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> >>
> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
> time
> >> on basic programming concepts.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/
> listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:42:16 -0600
> From: Chris Foresman <foresmac at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID: <2A938CBA-8BF3-47C2-9120-8C1742EA0D08 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> What would you recommend for Python devs that need to learn Java (besides
> applying for a different job :P )?
>
>
> Chris Foresman
> foresmac at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 2, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes <
> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk really
> emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from more
> verbose langs.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
> tathagatadg at gmail.com <mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk <
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this <
> http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
> would you recommend?
> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
> language of design patterns could work.
> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
> Python design patterns.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org <mailto:
> jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
> > The tutorial on python.org <http://python.org/> is a reasonably good
> intro and it doesn't waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if
> statement is:
> >
> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements <
> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements>
> >
> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> you want to use it to work through the examples.
> >
> >
> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer
> >>         wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource that
> >>         addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
> >>         programming concepts.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Chicago Digest, Vol 136, Issue 2
> ***************************************
>
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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Fri Dec  2 19:32:02 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 18:32:02 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9u=BSq1kPeVdOz9Ft56wQeRUyXVXtp1zB1tQRvzxugDjrQ@mail.gmail.com>

I will second the Fluent Python book.  I have it and think it's great.  He
makes great use of the built-in data structures and the standard library on
general.

On Dec 2, 2016 5:59 PM, "Tanya Schlusser" <tanya at tickel.net> wrote:

> For the Java-to-Python,  Luciano Ramalho's Fluent Python (
> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032519.do) specifically was
> written for ?migr?s from other languages :-) and apparently knocks it out
> of the park.
>
>
> For the Python-to-Java; implementing the same thing in different
> languages/APIs was a job requirement for me ... we tested ideas in Python,
> then the junior people (me...) had to translate to a different language for
> production...it was a fast way to bypass conceptual questions and cut
> straight to the differences between languages.
>
>
> Maybe try converting a Hadoop streaming job using Python to Java?
> Here's a Python entry point (this is for the old API but the newer docs
> are confusing to me): http://docs.aws.amazon.com/ElasticMapReduce/latest/
> DeveloperGuide/UseCase_Streaming.html
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:00 AM, <chicago-request at python.org> wrote:
>
>> Send Chicago mailing list submissions to
>>         chicago at python.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         chicago-request at python.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         chicago-owner at python.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Chicago digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Teaching Java people Python. (Jason Wirth)
>>    2. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Jordan Bettis)
>>    3. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Tathagata Dasgupta)
>>    4. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Carl Karsten)
>>    5. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Randy Baxley)
>>    6. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Michael Tamillow)
>>    7. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Allan LeSage)
>>    8. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Chris Foresman)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:14:15 +0000
>> From: Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ at mail.gm
>> ail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific
>> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>> basic
>> programming concepts.
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>> 02/e108c8b7/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 18:20:59 -0600
>> From: Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org>
>> To: chicago at python.org
>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>> Message-ID: <5840BE6B.3070705 at hafd.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>
>> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>
>> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> > specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
>> > time on basic programming concepts.
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>> 01/82f56a14/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:43:33 +0000
>> From: Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw at mail.
>> gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>> <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>> would
>> you recommend?
>> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
>> of design patterns could work.
>> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>> Python design patterns.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>
>> > The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>> > waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>> >
>> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>> >
>> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>> > you want to use it to work through the examples.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>> >
>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> specific
>> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>> basic
>> > programming concepts.
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>> 02/2bb902fc/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:02:30 -0600
>> From: Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CADmzSSih3_V38EOXfw4vH9Ei0Wb2L+oLMpU-UY0mYwyNZk2S8Q at mail.
>> gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> "Using Ripley and Python's Read Evaluate Print Loop, lead a group though
>> the basic Python syntax. The assumption is they know about programming and
>> need to be introduced to Python."  - https://github.com/CarlFK/Ripley/
>>
>> > addresses the differences
>>
>> I wonder if that is really a good use of time.  That sounds to me like
>> "forget what you have learned over the last 5 years" which is going to be
>> really hard.
>>
>> I suspect time is better used just teaching good python.
>>
>> But I should leave this to someone who has studied how to teach.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>> > would you recommend?
>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>> language
>> > of design patterns could work.
>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>> > Python design patterns.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>> >>
>> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>> >>
>> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
>> time
>> >> on basic programming concepts.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chicago mailing list
>> >> Chicago at python.org
>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carl K
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>> 01/17b575fa/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:20:58 -0600
>> From: Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com>
>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAMqL=ihSgv8XHC_FHnrGFtCPfchhP5OKYX_ba0R2H=VEtfOiaw at mail.
>> gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public
>> -data-hacking.html
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> specific
>> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>> basic
>> > programming concepts.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> >
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>> 01/7900ad7f/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 23:38:15 -0600
>> From: Michael Tamillow <mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com>
>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>> Message-ID: <E713DA93-27CD-4EEA-82C4-2A45E6B6241F at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Just on the topic of learning new things, I think it is a good idea to
>> follow the same paths as people who are already doing it - skip forward
>> when things are too easy, and step back when things become difficult to
>> comprehend.
>>
>> But I would say the best way to make a jump like that is to just read
>> source code. Ask questions about the source code through google. There are
>> tons of mature packages already with anaconda, just bust one open and try
>> to understand it.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:20 PM, Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public
>> -data-hacking.html
>> >
>> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
>> on basic programming concepts.
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chicago mailing list
>> >> Chicago at python.org
>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>> 01/4d516791/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:12:14 -0600
>> From: Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com>
>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg at mail.
>> gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes
>> <http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk really
>> emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from
>> more
>> verbose langs.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>> > would you recommend?
>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>> language
>> > of design patterns could work.
>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>> > Python design patterns.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>> >>
>> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>> >>
>> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
>> time
>> >> on basic programming concepts.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chicago mailing list
>> >> Chicago at python.org
>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>> >
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>> 02/5eeec018/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:42:16 -0600
>> From: Chris Foresman <foresmac at gmail.com>
>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>> Message-ID: <2A938CBA-8BF3-47C2-9120-8C1742EA0D08 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> What would you recommend for Python devs that need to learn Java (besides
>> applying for a different job :P )?
>>
>>
>> Chris Foresman
>> foresmac at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 2, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes <
>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk really
>> emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from more
>> verbose langs.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
>> tathagatadg at gmail.com <mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk <
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this <
>> http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>> would you recommend?
>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>> language of design patterns could work.
>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>> Python design patterns.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org <mailto:
>> jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
>> > The tutorial on python.org <http://python.org/> is a reasonably good
>> intro and it doesn't waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if
>> statement is:
>> >
>> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements <
>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements>
>> >
>> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer
>> >>         wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource that
>> >>         addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
>> >>         programming concepts.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chicago mailing list
>> >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> 02/74f0a460/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Chicago Digest, Vol 136, Issue 2
>> ***************************************
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From wirth.jason at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 02:35:21 2016
From: wirth.jason at gmail.com (Jason Wirth)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 01:35:21 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9u=BSq1kPeVdOz9Ft56wQeRUyXVXtp1zB1tQRvzxugDjrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9u=BSq1kPeVdOz9Ft56wQeRUyXVXtp1zB1tQRvzxugDjrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEwvNMg8k4x_ey--PrSjp90+kY5Z+_ug7zy-Ee28rGhDgr5qHA@mail.gmail.com>

All of the answers have been great, thank you.

I'm quite familiar with all of Raymond Hettinger's talks, as well as Jack's
talk, and Fluent Python. Those are my go-to sources for this. They address
the issue, but somewhat indirectly. T summarized it best. I was hoping for
a more targeted comparison addressing Java specifically; something like
this, bit with much more depth (he didn't even touch on getters/setters) --
https://antrix.net/static/pages/python-for-java/online/.

The Module Of The Week and standard library references are even good for
Python devs. I often forget how much is in there.




-- 
    Jason Wirth
    wirth.jason at gmail.com

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:

> I will second the Fluent Python book.  I have it and think it's great.  He
> makes great use of the built-in data structures and the standard library on
> general.
>
> On Dec 2, 2016 5:59 PM, "Tanya Schlusser" <tanya at tickel.net> wrote:
>
>> For the Java-to-Python,  Luciano Ramalho's Fluent Python (
>> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032519.do) specifically was
>> written for ?migr?s from other languages :-) and apparently knocks it out
>> of the park.
>>
>>
>> For the Python-to-Java; implementing the same thing in different
>> languages/APIs was a job requirement for me ... we tested ideas in Python,
>> then the junior people (me...) had to translate to a different language for
>> production...it was a fast way to bypass conceptual questions and cut
>> straight to the differences between languages.
>>
>>
>> Maybe try converting a Hadoop streaming job using Python to Java?
>> Here's a Python entry point (this is for the old API but the newer docs
>> are confusing to me): http://docs.aws.amazon.com/Ela
>> sticMapReduce/latest/DeveloperGuide/UseCase_Streaming.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:00 AM, <chicago-request at python.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Send Chicago mailing list submissions to
>>>         chicago at python.org
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>         https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>         chicago-request at python.org
>>>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>         chicago-owner at python.org
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Chicago digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>    1. Teaching Java people Python. (Jason Wirth)
>>>    2. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Jordan Bettis)
>>>    3. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Tathagata Dasgupta)
>>>    4. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Carl Karsten)
>>>    5. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Randy Baxley)
>>>    6. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Michael Tamillow)
>>>    7. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Allan LeSage)
>>>    8. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Chris Foresman)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:14:15 +0000
>>> From: Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>> Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ at mail.gm
>>> ail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>> specific
>>> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>>> basic
>>> programming concepts.
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>> 02/e108c8b7/attachment-0001.html>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 18:20:59 -0600
>>> From: Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org>
>>> To: chicago at python.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>> Message-ID: <5840BE6B.3070705 at hafd.org>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>>>
>>> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>>
>>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>>
>>> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>>> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>
>>> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>> > specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
>>> > time on basic programming concepts.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>> 01/82f56a14/attachment-0001.html>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:43:33 +0000
>>> From: Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw at mail.gm
>>> ail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>>> <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>> would
>>> you recommend?
>>> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
>>> of design patterns could work.
>>> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>>> Python design patterns.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>> > waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>> >
>>> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>> >
>>> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>>> > you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>> specific
>>> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>>> basic
>>> > programming concepts.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>> 02/2bb902fc/attachment-0001.html>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:02:30 -0600
>>> From: Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <CADmzSSih3_V38EOXfw4vH9Ei0Wb2L+oLMpU-UY0mYwyNZk2S8Q at mail.gm
>>> ail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> "Using Ripley and Python's Read Evaluate Print Loop, lead a group though
>>> the basic Python syntax. The assumption is they know about programming
>>> and
>>> need to be introduced to Python."  - https://github.com/CarlFK/Ripley/
>>>
>>> > addresses the differences
>>>
>>> I wonder if that is really a good use of time.  That sounds to me like
>>> "forget what you have learned over the last 5 years" which is going to be
>>> really hard.
>>>
>>> I suspect time is better used just teaching good python.
>>>
>>> But I should leave this to someone who has studied how to teach.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
>>> tathagatadg at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>>> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>>> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>> > would you recommend?
>>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>> language
>>> > of design patterns could work.
>>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>>> > Python design patterns.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>> >>
>>> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>> >>
>>> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>> if
>>> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without
>>> wasting time
>>> >> on basic programming concepts.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>> >> Chicago at python.org
>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Carl K
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>> 01/17b575fa/attachment-0001.html>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:20:58 -0600
>>> From: Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com>
>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <CAMqL=ihSgv8XHC_FHnrGFtCPfchhP5OKYX_ba0R2H=VEtfOiaw at mail.gm
>>> ail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
>>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public
>>> -data-hacking.html
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>> specific
>>> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>>> basic
>>> > programming concepts.
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >
>>> >
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>> 01/7900ad7f/attachment-0001.html>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 23:38:15 -0600
>>> From: Michael Tamillow <mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com>
>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>> Message-ID: <E713DA93-27CD-4EEA-82C4-2A45E6B6241F at gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Just on the topic of learning new things, I think it is a good idea to
>>> follow the same paths as people who are already doing it - skip forward
>>> when things are too easy, and step back when things become difficult to
>>> comprehend.
>>>
>>> But I would say the best way to make a jump like that is to just read
>>> source code. Ask questions about the source code through google. There are
>>> tons of mature packages already with anaconda, just bust one open and try
>>> to understand it.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:20 PM, Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
>>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public
>>> -data-hacking.html
>>> >
>>> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
>>> on basic programming concepts.
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>> >> Chicago at python.org
>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>> 01/4d516791/attachment-0001.html>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 7
>>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:12:14 -0600
>>> From: Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com>
>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg at mail.gm
>>> ail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes
>>> <http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk really
>>> emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from
>>> more
>>> verbose langs.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
>>> tathagatadg at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>>> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>>> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>> > would you recommend?
>>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>> language
>>> > of design patterns could work.
>>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>>> > Python design patterns.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>> >>
>>> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>> >>
>>> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>> if
>>> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without
>>> wasting time
>>> >> on basic programming concepts.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>> >> Chicago at python.org
>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>> >
>>> >
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>> 02/5eeec018/attachment-0001.html>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 8
>>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:42:16 -0600
>>> From: Chris Foresman <foresmac at gmail.com>
>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>> Message-ID: <2A938CBA-8BF3-47C2-9120-8C1742EA0D08 at gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> What would you recommend for Python devs that need to learn Java
>>> (besides applying for a different job :P )?
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris Foresman
>>> foresmac at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Dec 2, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes <
>>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk really
>>> emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from more
>>> verbose langs.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
>>> tathagatadg at gmail.com <mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk <
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this <
>>> http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>> would you recommend?
>>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>> language of design patterns could work.
>>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>>> Python design patterns.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org
>>> <mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
>>> > The tutorial on python.org <http://python.org/> is a reasonably good
>>> intro and it doesn't waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if
>>> statement is:
>>> >
>>> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements <
>>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements>
>>> >
>>> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>> if you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer
>>> >>         wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource that
>>> >>         addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
>>> >>         programming concepts.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>> >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>> 02/74f0a460/attachment-0001.html>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> End of Chicago Digest, Vol 136, Issue 2
>>> ***************************************
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From carl at personnelware.com  Sat Dec  3 13:50:28 2016
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 12:50:28 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CAEwvNMg8k4x_ey--PrSjp90+kY5Z+_ug7zy-Ee28rGhDgr5qHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9u=BSq1kPeVdOz9Ft56wQeRUyXVXtp1zB1tQRvzxugDjrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEwvNMg8k4x_ey--PrSjp90+kY5Z+_ug7zy-Ee28rGhDgr5qHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSjDeUwQLp7t4eW0Fwm3BKashHRKH4pigVw+hLnfABvm1Q@mail.gmail.com>

I am curious... (and know nothing about Java other than I don't really want
to invest much time leaning about Java)

Are there best practice or conventions or norms or something that are good
for Java but not other languages?    if so, Why?

And this may be the point of this thread, but seems like it is a given and
you are looking for a formal de-programming of someone that has been
brainwashed.







On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 1:35 AM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com> wrote:

> All of the answers have been great, thank you.
>
> I'm quite familiar with all of Raymond Hettinger's talks, as well as
> Jack's talk, and Fluent Python. Those are my go-to sources for this. They
> address the issue, but somewhat indirectly. T summarized it best. I was
> hoping for a more targeted comparison addressing Java specifically;
> something like this, bit with much more depth (he didn't even touch on
> getters/setters) -- https://antrix.net/static/
> pages/python-for-java/online/.
>
> The Module Of The Week and standard library references are even good for
> Python devs. I often forget how much is in there.
>
>
>
>
> --
>     Jason Wirth
>     wirth.jason at gmail.com
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
>> I will second the Fluent Python book.  I have it and think it's great.
>> He makes great use of the built-in data structures and the standard library
>> on general.
>>
>> On Dec 2, 2016 5:59 PM, "Tanya Schlusser" <tanya at tickel.net> wrote:
>>
>>> For the Java-to-Python,  Luciano Ramalho's Fluent Python (
>>> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032519.do) specifically was
>>> written for ?migr?s from other languages :-) and apparently knocks it out
>>> of the park.
>>>
>>>
>>> For the Python-to-Java; implementing the same thing in different
>>> languages/APIs was a job requirement for me ... we tested ideas in Python,
>>> then the junior people (me...) had to translate to a different language for
>>> production...it was a fast way to bypass conceptual questions and cut
>>> straight to the differences between languages.
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe try converting a Hadoop streaming job using Python to Java?
>>> Here's a Python entry point (this is for the old API but the newer docs
>>> are confusing to me): http://docs.aws.amazon.com/Ela
>>> sticMapReduce/latest/DeveloperGuide/UseCase_Streaming.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:00 AM, <chicago-request at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Send Chicago mailing list submissions to
>>>>         chicago at python.org
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>         https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>         chicago-request at python.org
>>>>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>         chicago-owner at python.org
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Chicago digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>>    1. Teaching Java people Python. (Jason Wirth)
>>>>    2. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Jordan Bettis)
>>>>    3. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Tathagata Dasgupta)
>>>>    4. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Carl Karsten)
>>>>    5. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Randy Baxley)
>>>>    6. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Michael Tamillow)
>>>>    7. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Allan LeSage)
>>>>    8. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Chris Foresman)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:14:15 +0000
>>>> From: Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>         <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ at mail.gm
>>>> ail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> specific
>>>> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>>>> basic
>>>> programming concepts.
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>>> 02/e108c8b7/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 18:20:59 -0600
>>>> From: Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org>
>>>> To: chicago at python.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID: <5840BE6B.3070705 at hafd.org>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>>>>
>>>> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>>> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>>>
>>>> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>>>> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>>
>>>> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> > specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
>>>> > time on basic programming concepts.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>>> 01/82f56a14/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:43:33 +0000
>>>> From: Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>         <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw at mail.gm
>>>> ail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>>> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>>> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>>> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>>>> <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>>> would
>>>> you recommend?
>>>> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>>> language
>>>> of design patterns could work.
>>>> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>>>> Python design patterns.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>>> > waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>>> >
>>>> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>>> if
>>>> > you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> specific
>>>> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>>>> basic
>>>> > programming concepts.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>>>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>>> 02/2bb902fc/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:02:30 -0600
>>>> From: Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>         <CADmzSSih3_V38EOXfw4vH9Ei0Wb2L+oLMpU-UY0mYwyNZk2S8Q at mail.gm
>>>> ail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> "Using Ripley and Python's Read Evaluate Print Loop, lead a group though
>>>> the basic Python syntax. The assumption is they know about programming
>>>> and
>>>> need to be introduced to Python."  - https://github.com/CarlFK/Ripley/
>>>>
>>>> > addresses the differences
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if that is really a good use of time.  That sounds to me like
>>>> "forget what you have learned over the last 5 years" which is going to
>>>> be
>>>> really hard.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect time is better used just teaching good python.
>>>>
>>>> But I should leave this to someone who has studied how to teach.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
>>>> tathagatadg at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>>> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>>>> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>>>> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>>> > would you recommend?
>>>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>>> language
>>>> > of design patterns could work.
>>>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>>>> > Python design patterns.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>>> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>>> if
>>>> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without
>>>> wasting time
>>>> >> on basic programming concepts.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>>>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>>> >> Chicago at python.org
>>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Carl K
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>>> 01/17b575fa/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:20:58 -0600
>>>> From: Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>         <CAMqL=ihSgv8XHC_FHnrGFtCPfchhP5OKYX_ba0R2H=VEtfOiaw at mail.gm
>>>> ail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
>>>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public
>>>> -data-hacking.html
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> specific
>>>> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>>>> basic
>>>> > programming concepts.
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>>> 01/7900ad7f/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 6
>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 23:38:15 -0600
>>>> From: Michael Tamillow <mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID: <E713DA93-27CD-4EEA-82C4-2A45E6B6241F at gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> Just on the topic of learning new things, I think it is a good idea to
>>>> follow the same paths as people who are already doing it - skip forward
>>>> when things are too easy, and step back when things become difficult to
>>>> comprehend.
>>>>
>>>> But I would say the best way to make a jump like that is to just read
>>>> source code. Ask questions about the source code through google. There are
>>>> tons of mature packages already with anaconda, just bust one open and try
>>>> to understand it.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> > On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:20 PM, Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
>>>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public
>>>> -data-hacking.html
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
>>>> on basic programming concepts.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>>> >> Chicago at python.org
>>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>>> 01/4d516791/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 7
>>>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:12:14 -0600
>>>> From: Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>         <CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg at mail.gm
>>>> ail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes
>>>> <http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk
>>>> really
>>>> emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from
>>>> more
>>>> verbose langs.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
>>>> tathagatadg at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>>> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>>>> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>>>> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>>> > would you recommend?
>>>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>>> language
>>>> > of design patterns could work.
>>>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>>>> > Python design patterns.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>>> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>>> if
>>>> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without
>>>> wasting time
>>>> >> on basic programming concepts.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>>>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>>> >> Chicago at python.org
>>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>>> 02/5eeec018/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 8
>>>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:42:16 -0600
>>>> From: Chris Foresman <foresmac at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID: <2A938CBA-8BF3-47C2-9120-8C1742EA0D08 at gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> What would you recommend for Python devs that need to learn Java
>>>> (besides applying for a different job :P )?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris Foresman
>>>> foresmac at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Dec 2, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes <
>>>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk
>>>> really emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come
>>>> from more verbose langs.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
>>>> tathagatadg at gmail.com <mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>>> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk <
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this <
>>>> http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>>> would you recommend?
>>>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>>> language of design patterns could work.
>>>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg>
>>>> on Python design patterns.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org
>>>> <mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
>>>> > The tutorial on python.org <http://python.org/> is a reasonably good
>>>> intro and it doesn't waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if
>>>> statement is:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements <
>>>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements>
>>>> >
>>>> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>>> if you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer
>>>> >>         wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource
>>>> that
>>>> >>         addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
>>>> >>         programming concepts.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>>> >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>>> 02/74f0a460/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Chicago mailing list
>>>> Chicago at python.org
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> End of Chicago Digest, Vol 136, Issue 2
>>>> ***************************************
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>


-- 
Carl K
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From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 16:20:35 2016
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 15:20:35 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CANc-5UwU+ff0Yf7FS1UXjdup+tySN6xdQFYbOCZMTrawP_34jA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9u=BSq1kPeVdOz9Ft56wQeRUyXVXtp1zB1tQRvzxugDjrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEwvNMg8k4x_ey--PrSjp90+kY5Z+_ug7zy-Ee28rGhDgr5qHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjDeUwQLp7t4eW0Fwm3BKashHRKH4pigVw+hLnfABvm1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UxFiBhLn7D0Lhz7r7+7oM3qgY9iYEu3GoOBm1qn71enVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UwU+ff0Yf7FS1UXjdup+tySN6xdQFYbOCZMTrawP_34jA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UzMHO5xrCc7nHEd9NLZmQLnhr=6KkpdH8gCAPWVuzUyYQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've kind of been half following this thread (mean to check out some of the
video links). As not a Java person (never even written "hello world" in
Java), what does version 8 (or less?) have to do with how you approach
teaching Python to a Java developer?

Skip
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From mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 16:30:22 2016
From: mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com (Michael Tamillow)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 15:30:22 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CANc-5UzMHO5xrCc7nHEd9NLZmQLnhr=6KkpdH8gCAPWVuzUyYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9u=BSq1kPeVdOz9Ft56wQeRUyXVXtp1zB1tQRvzxugDjrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEwvNMg8k4x_ey--PrSjp90+kY5Z+_ug7zy-Ee28rGhDgr5qHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjDeUwQLp7t4eW0Fwm3BKashHRKH4pigVw+hLnfABvm1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UxFiBhLn7D0Lhz7r7+7oM3qgY9iYEu3GoOBm1qn71enVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UwU+ff0Yf7FS1UXjdup+tySN6xdQFYbOCZMTrawP_34jA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzMHO5xrCc7nHEd9NLZmQLnhr=6KkpdH8gCAPWVuzUyYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFkCkGeiS59_8gCNT1nGtiYjWAN_oJfo6S-DPibom8okaRo=GQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.spuriousthoughts.com/2003/05/02/strong-typing-vs-strong-testing/

On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I've kind of been half following this thread (mean to check out some of
> the video links). As not a Java person (never even written "hello world" in
> Java), what does version 8 (or less?) have to do with how you approach
> teaching Python to a Java developer?
>
> Skip
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From comicpilsen at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 17:08:12 2016
From: comicpilsen at gmail.com (comicpilsen)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 16:08:12 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Anyone in ChiPY local to Pilsen ?
Message-ID: <568ccd9e-66de-e63d-416a-106bdbddf069@gmail.com>

Hi All

    Wondering if there are any Pilsen ( near Miller and 18th) python persons? Thought it
might be nice to sit down and put the world to rights in La Catrina

CP

From joe.jasinski at gmail.com  Mon Dec  5 18:40:27 2016
From: joe.jasinski at gmail.com (Joe Jasinski)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 17:40:27 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy December Meeting Speaker
Message-ID: <CACdfcwWs-ZQoiwYx2Oyt6aNeCmK1gRXi3ETZk8c=RoTK1+sH6g@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all,

We are looking for one more speaker for the December Chipy meeting, so if
you have a Python-related topic that you are itching to talk about, we'd
love to hear from you.  This extends to a module-of-the-month talk too.

You can submit your topic here or email me if you have any questions about
it.
http://www.chipy.org/meetings/topics/propose/

Looking forward to hearing from you!


Joe

-- 
Joe J. Jasinski
www.joejasinski.com
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From proba at allstate.com  Mon Dec  5 16:13:25 2016
From: proba at allstate.com (Robare, Phillip (TEKSystems))
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 21:13:25 +0000
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSjDeUwQLp7t4eW0Fwm3BKashHRKH4pigVw+hLnfABvm1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9u=BSq1kPeVdOz9Ft56wQeRUyXVXtp1zB1tQRvzxugDjrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEwvNMg8k4x_ey--PrSjp90+kY5Z+_ug7zy-Ee28rGhDgr5qHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjDeUwQLp7t4eW0Fwm3BKashHRKH4pigVw+hLnfABvm1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50869A74BA4F07468AD797C9BFF1FE3E288CB2A7@A0185-XPO1026-C.ad.allstate.com>

Every language is a response to a need to express concepts of computation in a higher level form.  Certain concepts are more easily expressed through one language than another.  An aspect to consider is what were the new concepts being discussed at the time the language was defined and how were those discussions brought into the design of the language.  This is usually taught in a ?Survey of Programming Languages? class, typically taught mid-way through the undergraduate CS curriculum.  I would argue however that it should be revisited in the graduate curriculum since there is such a rich intersection of psychology, hardware and theoretical computation here.

Anyway, on to why is Java different from Python?  Let?s look at Java?s background.

Java came along at the time C and C++ (think of the latter as ?C with Classes?, not the templated behemoth of today) were being used to build large multi-team systems and people were running into problems.  In addition Smalltalk had shown the world that object oriented design, and languages that could express objects as a core part of the language, were much more productive for programmers to use.  Both Smalltalk and C had problems with blowing up if you violated the expectations for data types.  And the larger the problem being programmed the more interfaces and the more chance for an error.

In C the classic error was the buffer overflow.  Your code would copy a string passed to it without checking the length.  If the passed string was too long it would happily keep copying characters into memory that was meant for something else.  If the something else was a return address the routine would return and happily try to execute whatever was at the address pointed to by the characters of the passed in string, often leading to a system crash.  This could be handled in a meta- sort of way by tight design specifications but the language had no concepts for expressing these.  Another problem for implementation of higher level ideas was that there was no good way to work with pointers to functions.  You might know the types of the variables to pass (although a cast could change this information) but the meaning was spread among documentation, code and header files.

In C++ the pointer to a function became hidden behind an object reference and that made it much easier to combine these into higher level structures.  But try/catch/throw was just getting good implementations.  A problem here was that anything could throw for any reason and the catch clause, often in another team?s code, wasn?t necessarily expecting what was coming at it.

Smalltalk was a language way ahead of its time.  Graphics libraries were defined with the language, not an add-on.  Variables had no fixed type and types were mutable.  A method could be passed a string and change the variable to an int and the caller would have to deal with it.  This made for an elegant way to implement a string-to- integer routine but also made for hard to find bugs.  In the early 90s I worked on a Unix project that wrote the UI in Smalltalk and the network back end in C.  I was leader of the C team and with some work implemented a network API in three months.  In the same 3 months the front end team completed the whole front end - something that would have taken twice as many people a year to do in X-windows code.  The C team then became the test team and the Smalltalk team transitioned from development to bug fixing.  And there were bugs galore.  Put a string into an int field and the system crashed.  Input your date in a format the date object didn?t handle and the system crashed.  And many more I can?t remember.  After 6 months we had found one bug in the C code and so many in the front end that the whole development team was still in place.  It was getting harder to crash the system so management declared victory and the system was deployed.

This is the environment that Java was designed in.  The creators of Java wanted a language that could be used by multiple teams, a language that could tackle the issues that had made large scale programming hard.

They made several decisions that 20 years later look very good.  The Object was made first class and was central to the language.  Calling and return types were explicitly defined.  There was a first class value for null (instead of the pointer to 0 that had to be explicitly checked in C).  Once they were created variables didn?t change type.  The language was ported to different architectures by compiling to an intermediate form that was executed by a virtual machine.  While not a new idea (it had been tried 15 years before with Pascal but had performance problems) the increase in hardware capabilities made it successful this time around.

Some other ideas were walked back over the years as it became clear that they made programming harder.  Type conversions were originally explicit and ?float aVar = 1;? would give a syntax error since you were assigning an int to a float variable.

Because of the problem with loosey throw-catch in C++ the language required that any explicitly thrown exception be declared in the method signature and that the caller be coded to their catch what was being thrown or in turn declare that it might throw the exception.  This created brittle hierarchies of routines that could not easily be re-architected.  Today most language designers consider it a dead end feature.

Another thing the language introduced was a rich standard library that followed the ideas that were expressed in the Gang of Four pattern book.  You were not supposed to call an object directly, you called it through an interface that hid the implementation from the calling code.  The linker therefore did not have to resolve the entire hierarchy of types, as in C++, but could stop at an interface.

This had an effect on the growing culture of Java programming.  If an interface was good when you were calling a hierarchy of types it was good to use it when you called anything because who knew when you might want to evolve the code in the future and having an interface would make such changes easier.  If single character variables were cryptic then forty character ones, like the long names in the library, were good.

Java became a language that you wrote wordy programs in.  Ease of expression had a lowered importance and instead types, objects, and interfaces had to be defined in an off-line design process before implementation.

(Now to answer your question about Java vs Python)

Python stole many of its ideas from Smalltalk and Perl, emphasizing quick development.  Types are not as loose as in Smalltalk but compared to Java they are quite loose.  Instead of defined interfaces to classes Python uses duck typing.  Unlike the wordiness of Java small tightly focused methods are favored.

You can still write Java style code in Python but won?t run as well and will take longer to write.


Phil Robare

From: Chicago [mailto:chicago-bounces+proba=allstate.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Carl Karsten
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:50 PM
To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.

I am curious... (and know nothing about Java other than I don't really want to invest much time leaning about Java)
Are there best practice or conventions or norms or something that are good for Java but not other languages?    if so, Why?

And this may be the point of this thread, but seems like it is a given and you are looking for a formal de-programming of someone that has been brainwashed.





On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 1:35 AM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com<mailto:wirth.jason at gmail.com>> wrote:
All of the answers have been great, thank you.

I'm quite familiar with all of Raymond Hettinger's talks, as well as Jack's talk, and Fluent Python. Those are my go-to sources for this. They address the issue, but somewhat indirectly. T summarized it best. I was hoping for a more targeted comparison addressing Java specifically; something like this, bit with much more depth (he didn't even touch on getters/setters) -- https://antrix.net/static/pages/python-for-java/online/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__antrix.net_static_pages_python-2Dfor-2Djava_online_&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=zPHtj4cZx8nfaLlg221q6Dlns49M552YnsEyr3Mv4hU&e=>.

The Module Of The Week and standard library references are even good for Python devs. I often forget how much is in there.




--
    Jason Wirth
    wirth.jason at gmail.com<mailto:wirth.jason at gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu<mailto:elmq0022 at umn.edu>> wrote:
I will second the Fluent Python book.  I have it and think it's great.  He makes great use of the built-in data structures and the standard library on general.

On Dec 2, 2016 5:59 PM, "Tanya Schlusser" <tanya at tickel.net<mailto:tanya at tickel.net>> wrote:
For the Java-to-Python,  Luciano Ramalho's Fluent Python (http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032519.do<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__shop.oreilly.com_product_0636920032519.do&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=CFxr_N84-j9-tbwoD3rYxhXy1eYUJval6XrUqvZjJUw&e=>) specifically was written for ?migr?s from other languages :-) and apparently knocks it out of the park.


For the Python-to-Java; implementing the same thing in different languages/APIs was a job requirement for me ... we tested ideas in Python, then the junior people (me...) had to translate to a different language for production...it was a fast way to bypass conceptual questions and cut straight to the differences between languages.


Maybe try converting a Hadoop streaming job using Python to Java?
Here's a Python entry point (this is for the old API but the newer docs are confusing to me): http://docs.aws.amazon.com/ElasticMapReduce/latest/DeveloperGuide/UseCase_Streaming.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__docs.aws.amazon.com_ElasticMapReduce_latest_DeveloperGuide_UseCase-5FStreaming.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=6jiiAEQbVOmt0IBFS49UmBroLY0cE01ix079FuYl0y0&e=>




On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:00 AM, <chicago-request at python.org<mailto:chicago-request at python.org>> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

   1. Teaching Java people Python. (Jason Wirth)
   2. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Jordan Bettis)
   3. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Tathagata Dasgupta)
   4. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Carl Karsten)
   5. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Randy Baxley)
   6. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Michael Tamillow)
   7. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Allan LeSage)
   8. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Chris Foresman)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:14:15 +0000
From: Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com<mailto:wirth.jason at gmail.com>>
To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org<mailto:chicago at python.org>>
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Message-ID:
        <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe%2B%2BOEFX9_GQ at mail.gmail.com>>
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Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific
go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
programming concepts.
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 18:20:59 -0600
From: Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org<mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>>
To: chicago at python.org<mailto:chicago at python.org>
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Message-ID: <5840BE6B.3070705 at hafd.org<mailto:5840BE6B.3070705 at hafd.org>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"

The tutorial on python.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=sotya0IU9jBNK47swF2LE5Z_5RE351SocPZmz2r9YDU&e=> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:

https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>

Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
you want to use it to work through the examples.

On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
> time on basic programming concepts.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>

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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:43:33 +0000
From: Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com<mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>>
To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org<mailto:chicago at python.org>>
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Message-ID:
        <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAB32_MNv%2Bdc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-%2BCWgrj5RODyXSPJiw at mail.gmail.com>>
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I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
(terribly) of Java (version < 8).
We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DOSGv2VnC0go&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=0Rvh_hmWpz77sOlkz9Qlbw9yqiuYHdZHzTbVlc4SvHU&e=>>, this
<http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dirtsimple.org_2004_12_python-2Dis-2Dnot-2Djava.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=-OEYLwLvldQzhFkDhUfoBpRgp6lbX7L46RwpIk1-Az4&e=>> article, what would
you recommend?
I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
of design patterns could work.
Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D0vJJlVBVTFg&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=yAoTl1qZocbApZSRrGqz1Qvkuv1izU-aIx2FNx-0ksM&e=>> on
Python design patterns.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org<mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:

> The tutorial on python.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=sotya0IU9jBNK47swF2LE5Z_5RE351SocPZmz2r9YDU&e=> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>
>
> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>
>
> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>
> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific
> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
> programming concepts.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=nS1Vy24jnTkqavGZTmrzdNUCKh15GDZq3J3RwV2fAKk&e=>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:02:30 -0600
From: Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com<mailto:carl at personnelware.com>>
To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org<mailto:chicago at python.org>>
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Message-ID:
        <CADmzSSih3_V38EOXfw4vH9Ei0Wb2L+oLMpU-UY0mYwyNZk2S8Q at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CADmzSSih3_V38EOXfw4vH9Ei0Wb2L%2BoLMpU-UY0mYwyNZk2S8Q at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

"Using Ripley and Python's Read Evaluate Print Loop, lead a group though
the basic Python syntax. The assumption is they know about programming and
need to be introduced to Python."  - https://github.com/CarlFK/Ripley/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_CarlFK_Ripley_&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=LLopi_kWSwnOQ0uVtxbg170Z-5hEoj93XGoBwIMdE5k&e=>

> addresses the differences

I wonder if that is really a good use of time.  That sounds to me like
"forget what you have learned over the last 5 years" which is going to be
really hard.

I suspect time is better used just teaching good python.

But I should leave this to someone who has studied how to teach.



On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com<mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>>
wrote:

> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DOSGv2VnC0go&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=0Rvh_hmWpz77sOlkz9Qlbw9yqiuYHdZHzTbVlc4SvHU&e=>>, this
> <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dirtsimple.org_2004_12_python-2Dis-2Dnot-2Djava.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=-OEYLwLvldQzhFkDhUfoBpRgp6lbX7L46RwpIk1-Az4&e=>> article, what
> would you recommend?
> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
> of design patterns could work.
> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D0vJJlVBVTFg&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=yAoTl1qZocbApZSRrGqz1Qvkuv1izU-aIx2FNx-0ksM&e=>> on
> Python design patterns.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org<mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
>
>> The tutorial on python.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=sotya0IU9jBNK47swF2LE5Z_5RE351SocPZmz2r9YDU&e=> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>
>>
>> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>
>>
>> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>
>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
>> on basic programming concepts.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=nS1Vy24jnTkqavGZTmrzdNUCKh15GDZq3J3RwV2fAKk&e=>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
>
>


--
Carl K
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:20:58 -0600
From: Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com<mailto:randy7771026 at gmail.com>>
To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org<mailto:chicago at python.org>>
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Message-ID:
        <CAMqL=ihSgv8XHC_FHnrGFtCPfchhP5OKYX_ba0R2H=VEtfOiaw at mail.gmail.com<mailto:VEtfOiaw at mail.gmail.com>>
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Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public-data-hacking.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pyvideo.org_pycon-2Dus-2D2013_learn-2Dpython-2Dthrough-2Dpublic-2Ddata-2Dhacking.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=qrffWijPLqubnfRHcLSyOSPMJ6M5XriZEps0fb80veY&e=>

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com<mailto:wirth.jason at gmail.com>> wrote:

> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific
> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
> programming concepts.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
>
>
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 23:38:15 -0600
From: Michael Tamillow <mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com<mailto:mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com>>
To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org<mailto:chicago at python.org>>
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Message-ID: <E713DA93-27CD-4EEA-82C4-2A45E6B6241F at gmail.com<mailto:E713DA93-27CD-4EEA-82C4-2A45E6B6241F at gmail.com>>
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Just on the topic of learning new things, I think it is a good idea to follow the same paths as people who are already doing it - skip forward when things are too easy, and step back when things become difficult to comprehend.

But I would say the best way to make a jump like that is to just read source code. Ask questions about the source code through google. There are tons of mature packages already with anaconda, just bust one open and try to understand it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:20 PM, Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com<mailto:randy7771026 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public-data-hacking.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pyvideo.org_pycon-2Dus-2D2013_learn-2Dpython-2Dthrough-2Dpublic-2Ddata-2Dhacking.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=qrffWijPLqubnfRHcLSyOSPMJ6M5XriZEps0fb80veY&e=>
>
>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com<mailto:wirth.jason at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic programming concepts.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:12:14 -0600
From: Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com<mailto:allanlesage at gmail.com>>
To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org<mailto:chicago at python.org>>
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Message-ID:
        <CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg at mail.gmail.com>>
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Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes
<http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pyvideo.org_pycon-2Dus-2D2012_stop-2Dwriting-2Dclasses.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=IrgQmeFNT2MjP93tAD8pHs0mMGoDMNvM5d2UUXnbz_Q&e=>> talk really
emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from more
verbose langs.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com<mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>>
wrote:

> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DOSGv2VnC0go&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=0Rvh_hmWpz77sOlkz9Qlbw9yqiuYHdZHzTbVlc4SvHU&e=>>, this
> <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dirtsimple.org_2004_12_python-2Dis-2Dnot-2Djava.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=-OEYLwLvldQzhFkDhUfoBpRgp6lbX7L46RwpIk1-Az4&e=>> article, what
> would you recommend?
> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
> of design patterns could work.
> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D0vJJlVBVTFg&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=yAoTl1qZocbApZSRrGqz1Qvkuv1izU-aIx2FNx-0ksM&e=>> on
> Python design patterns.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org<mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
>
>> The tutorial on python.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=sotya0IU9jBNK47swF2LE5Z_5RE351SocPZmz2r9YDU&e=> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>
>>
>> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>
>>
>> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>
>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
>> on basic programming concepts.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=nS1Vy24jnTkqavGZTmrzdNUCKh15GDZq3J3RwV2fAKk&e=>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
>
>
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:42:16 -0600
From: Chris Foresman <foresmac at gmail.com<mailto:foresmac at gmail.com>>
To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org<mailto:chicago at python.org>>
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Message-ID: <2A938CBA-8BF3-47C2-9120-8C1742EA0D08 at gmail.com<mailto:2A938CBA-8BF3-47C2-9120-8C1742EA0D08 at gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

What would you recommend for Python devs that need to learn Java (besides applying for a different job :P )?


Chris Foresman
foresmac at gmail.com<mailto:foresmac at gmail.com>




> On Dec 2, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com<mailto:allanlesage at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes <http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pyvideo.org_pycon-2Dus-2D2012_stop-2Dwriting-2Dclasses.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=IrgQmeFNT2MjP93tAD8pHs0mMGoDMNvM5d2UUXnbz_Q&e=>> talk really emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from more verbose langs.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com<mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com> <mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com<mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DOSGv2VnC0go&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=0Rvh_hmWpz77sOlkz9Qlbw9yqiuYHdZHzTbVlc4SvHU&e=>>, this <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dirtsimple.org_2004_12_python-2Dis-2Dnot-2Djava.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=-OEYLwLvldQzhFkDhUfoBpRgp6lbX7L46RwpIk1-Az4&e=>> article, what would you recommend?
> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language of design patterns could work.
> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D0vJJlVBVTFg&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=yAoTl1qZocbApZSRrGqz1Qvkuv1izU-aIx2FNx-0ksM&e=>> on Python design patterns.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org<mailto:jordanb at hafd.org> <mailto:jordanb at hafd.org<mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>>> wrote:
> The tutorial on python.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=sotya0IU9jBNK47swF2LE5Z_5RE351SocPZmz2r9YDU&e=> <http://python.org/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org_&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=3dEkBv_2SGTTJQqsF6k6HNhQc2mx6OMYE8Op2zGjEbI&e=>> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=> <https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>>
>
> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if you want to use it to work through the examples.
>
>
> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>> Say a hard-core Java programmer
>>         wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource that
>>         addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
>>         programming concepts.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org> <mailto:Chicago at python.org<mailto:Chicago at python.org>>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=> <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Carl K
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From wirth.jason at gmail.com  Mon Dec  5 22:35:08 2016
From: wirth.jason at gmail.com (Jason Wirth)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 12:35:08 +0900
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <50869A74BA4F07468AD797C9BFF1FE3E288CB2A7@A0185-XPO1026-C.ad.allstate.com>
References: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <50869A74BA4F07468AD797C9BFF1FE3E288CB2A7@A0185-XPO1026-C.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <CAEwvNMgzsFN7o+eJ1oGf6uSAiOB+N13pbfARL_18UmmxzA_RDQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wow! Thanks Phillip, that's an awesome history. I agree, there should
certainly be more survey classes.

Not being a Java guy myself this questions is hard to answer completely.
Java has a strong object oriented paradigm, everything must be a class,
even if that class has only one method "run" (see Jacks "Stop writing
classes talk"). In Python Hello World is just a call to print (or print
function) in Java it must be a class. I believe Java might have restricted
some of these requirements in Java8 but I don't know for sure.


public class HelloWorld {
    public static void main(String[] args) {        // Prints "Hello,
World" to the terminal window.        System.out.println("Hello,
World");    }
}


You might see an ex-Java developer write a bunch of classes where
everything should either be a simple function, or at least static methods.

Java can have multiple constructors that are defined by the number of
parameters and their types. In Python the standard practice is to define
multiple class methods.

Getters and setters, perhaps all implementation hiding, is a common java
pattern.

Defensive programming vs catching errors.

if keyVar != "" and keyVar in someDict.keys():
    return someDict[keyVar]



The GOF seems to have heavily influenced Java (or perhaps the other way
around) and focuses on solving common problems in OOP languages. Python's
language features have eliminated some of these, I rarely hear Python
developers talk about the "factory pattern".





-- 
    Jason Wirth
    wirth.jason at gmail.com

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 6:13 AM, Robare, Phillip (TEKSystems) <
proba at allstate.com> wrote:

> Every language is a response to a need to express concepts of computation
> in a higher level form.  Certain concepts are more easily expressed through
> one language than another.  An aspect to consider is what were the new
> concepts being discussed at the time the language was defined and how were
> those discussions brought into the design of the language.  This is usually
> taught in a ?Survey of Programming Languages? class, typically taught
> mid-way through the undergraduate CS curriculum.  I would argue however
> that it should be revisited in the graduate curriculum since there is such
> a rich intersection of psychology, hardware and theoretical computation
> here.
>
>
>
> Anyway, on to why is Java different from Python?  Let?s look at Java?s
> background.
>
>
>
> Java came along at the time C and C++ (think of the latter as ?C with
> Classes?, not the templated behemoth of today) were being used to build
> large multi-team systems and people were running into problems.  In
> addition Smalltalk had shown the world that object oriented design, and
> languages that could express objects as a core part of the language, were
> much more productive for programmers to use.  Both Smalltalk and C had
> problems with blowing up if you violated the expectations for data types.
> And the larger the problem being programmed the more interfaces and the
> more chance for an error.
>
>
>
> In C the classic error was the buffer overflow.  Your code would copy a
> string passed to it without checking the length.  If the passed string was
> too long it would happily keep copying characters into memory that was
> meant for something else.  If the something else was a return address the
> routine would return and happily try to execute whatever was at the address
> pointed to by the characters of the passed in string, often leading to a
> system crash.  This could be handled in a meta- sort of way by tight design
> specifications but the language had no concepts for expressing these.
> Another problem for implementation of higher level ideas was that there was
> no good way to work with pointers to functions.  You might know the types
> of the variables to pass (although a cast could change this information)
> but the meaning was spread among documentation, code and header files.
>
>
>
> In C++ the pointer to a function became hidden behind an object reference
> and that made it much easier to combine these into higher level
> structures.  But try/catch/throw was just getting good implementations.  A
> problem here was that anything could throw for any reason and the catch
> clause, often in another team?s code, wasn?t necessarily expecting what was
> coming at it.
>
>
>
> Smalltalk was a language way ahead of its time.  Graphics libraries were
> defined with the language, not an add-on.  Variables had no fixed type and
> types were mutable.  A method could be passed a string and change the
> variable to an int and the caller would have to deal with it.  This made
> for an elegant way to implement a string-to- integer routine but also made
> for hard to find bugs.  In the early 90s I worked on a Unix project that
> wrote the UI in Smalltalk and the network back end in C.  I was leader of
> the C team and with some work implemented a network API in three months.
> In the same 3 months the front end team completed the whole front end -
> something that would have taken twice as many people a year to do in
> X-windows code.  The C team then became the test team and the Smalltalk
> team transitioned from development to bug fixing.  And there were bugs
> galore.  Put a string into an int field and the system crashed.  Input your
> date in a format the date object didn?t handle and the system crashed.  And
> many more I can?t remember.  After 6 months we had found one bug in the C
> code and so many in the front end that the whole development team was still
> in place.  It was getting harder to crash the system so management declared
> victory and the system was deployed.
>
>
>
> This is the environment that Java was designed in.  The creators of Java
> wanted a language that could be used by multiple teams, a language that
> could tackle the issues that had made large scale programming hard.
>
>
>
> They made several decisions that 20 years later look very good.  The
> Object was made first class and was central to the language.  Calling and
> return types were explicitly defined.  There was a first class value for
> null (instead of the pointer to 0 that had to be explicitly checked in C).
> Once they were created variables didn?t change type.  The language was
> ported to different architectures by compiling to an intermediate form that
> was executed by a virtual machine.  While not a new idea (it had been tried
> 15 years before with Pascal but had performance problems) the increase in
> hardware capabilities made it successful this time around.
>
>
>
> Some other ideas were walked back over the years as it became clear that
> they made programming harder.  Type conversions were originally explicit
> and ?float aVar = 1;? would give a syntax error since you were assigning an
> int to a float variable.
>
>
>
> Because of the problem with loosey throw-catch in C++ the language
> required that any explicitly thrown exception be declared in the method
> signature and that the caller be coded to their catch what was being thrown
> or in turn declare that it might throw the exception.  This created brittle
> hierarchies of routines that could not easily be re-architected.  Today
> most language designers consider it a dead end feature.
>
>
>
> Another thing the language introduced was a rich standard library that
> followed the ideas that were expressed in the Gang of Four pattern book.
> You were not supposed to call an object directly, you called it through an
> interface that hid the implementation from the calling code.  The linker
> therefore did not have to resolve the entire hierarchy of types, as in C++,
> but could stop at an interface.
>
>
>
> This had an effect on the growing culture of Java programming.  If an
> interface was good when you were calling a hierarchy of types it was good
> to use it when you called anything because who knew when you might want to
> evolve the code in the future and having an interface would make such
> changes easier.  If single character variables were cryptic then forty
> character ones, like the long names in the library, were good.
>
>
>
> Java became a language that you wrote wordy programs in.  Ease of
> expression had a lowered importance and instead types, objects, and
> interfaces had to be defined in an off-line design process before
> implementation.
>
>
>
> (Now to answer your question about Java vs Python)
>
>
>
> Python stole many of its ideas from Smalltalk and Perl, emphasizing quick
> development.  Types are not as loose as in Smalltalk but compared to Java
> they are quite loose.  Instead of defined interfaces to classes Python uses
> duck typing.  Unlike the wordiness of Java small tightly focused methods
> are favored.
>
>
>
> You can still write Java style code in Python but won?t run as well and
> will take longer to write.
>
>
>
>
>
> Phil Robare
>
>
>
> *From:* Chicago [mailto:chicago-bounces+proba=allstate.com at python.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Carl Karsten
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:50 PM
>
> *To:* The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>
>
>
> I am curious... (and know nothing about Java other than I don't really
> want to invest much time leaning about Java)
>
> Are there best practice or conventions or norms or something that are good
> for Java but not other languages?    if so, Why?
>
>
>
> And this may be the point of this thread, but seems like it is a given and
> you are looking for a formal de-programming of someone that has been
> brainwashed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 1:35 AM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> All of the answers have been great, thank you.
>
>
>
> I'm quite familiar with all of Raymond Hettinger's talks, as well as
> Jack's talk, and Fluent Python. Those are my go-to sources for this. They
> address the issue, but somewhat indirectly. T summarized it best. I was
> hoping for a more targeted comparison addressing Java specifically;
> something like this, bit with much more depth (he didn't even touch on
> getters/setters) -- https://antrix.net/static/
> pages/python-for-java/online/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__antrix.net_static_pages_python-2Dfor-2Djava_online_&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=zPHtj4cZx8nfaLlg221q6Dlns49M552YnsEyr3Mv4hU&e=>.
>
>
>
>
> The Module Of The Week and standard library references are even good for
> Python devs. I often forget how much is in there.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>     Jason Wirth
>     wirth.jason at gmail.com
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
> I will second the Fluent Python book.  I have it and think it's great.  He
> makes great use of the built-in data structures and the standard library on
> general.
>
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2016 5:59 PM, "Tanya Schlusser" <tanya at tickel.net> wrote:
>
> For the Java-to-Python,  Luciano Ramalho's Fluent Python (
> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032519.do
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__shop.oreilly.com_product_0636920032519.do&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=CFxr_N84-j9-tbwoD3rYxhXy1eYUJval6XrUqvZjJUw&e=>)
> specifically was written for ?migr?s from other languages :-) and
> apparently knocks it out of the park.
>
>
>
>
>
> For the Python-to-Java; implementing the same thing in different
> languages/APIs was a job requirement for me ... we tested ideas in Python,
> then the junior people (me...) had to translate to a different language for
> production...it was a fast way to bypass conceptual questions and cut
> straight to the differences between languages.
>
>
>
>
>
> Maybe try converting a Hadoop streaming job using Python to Java?
>
> Here's a Python entry point (this is for the old API but the newer docs
> are confusing to me): http://docs.aws.amazon.com/ElasticMapReduce/latest/
> DeveloperGuide/UseCase_Streaming.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__docs.aws.amazon.com_ElasticMapReduce_latest_DeveloperGuide_UseCase-5FStreaming.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=6jiiAEQbVOmt0IBFS49UmBroLY0cE01ix079FuYl0y0&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:00 AM, <chicago-request at python.org> wrote:
>
> Send Chicago mailing list submissions to
>         chicago at python.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Chicago digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Teaching Java people Python. (Jason Wirth)
>    2. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Jordan Bettis)
>    3. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Tathagata Dasgupta)
>    4. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Carl Karsten)
>    5. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Randy Baxley)
>    6. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Michael Tamillow)
>    7. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Allan LeSage)
>    8. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Chris Foresman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:14:15 +0000
> From: Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID:
>         <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a specific
> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
> programming concepts.
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 18:20:59 -0600
> From: Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org>
> To: chicago at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID: <5840BE6B.3070705 at hafd.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>
> The tutorial on python.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=sotya0IU9jBNK47swF2LE5Z_5RE351SocPZmz2r9YDU&e=>
> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>
>
> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>
> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> > specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
> > time on basic programming concepts.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:43:33 +0000
> From: Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID:
>         <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw at mail.gmail.
> com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DOSGv2VnC0go&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=0Rvh_hmWpz77sOlkz9Qlbw9yqiuYHdZHzTbVlc4SvHU&e=>>,
> this
> <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dirtsimple.org_2004_12_python-2Dis-2Dnot-2Djava.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=-OEYLwLvldQzhFkDhUfoBpRgp6lbX7L46RwpIk1-Az4&e=>>
> article, what would
> you recommend?
> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
> of design patterns could work.
> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D0vJJlVBVTFg&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=yAoTl1qZocbApZSRrGqz1Qvkuv1izU-aIx2FNx-0ksM&e=>>
> on
> Python design patterns.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>
> > The tutorial on python.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=sotya0IU9jBNK47swF2LE5Z_5RE351SocPZmz2r9YDU&e=>
> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
> > waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
> >
> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>
> >
> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> > you want to use it to work through the examples.
> >
> >
> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> >
> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> specific
> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
> basic
> > programming concepts.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/
> listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=nS1Vy24jnTkqavGZTmrzdNUCKh15GDZq3J3RwV2fAKk&e=>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:02:30 -0600
> From: Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID:
>         <CADmzSSih3_V38EOXfw4vH9Ei0Wb2L+oLMpU-
> UY0mYwyNZk2S8Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> "Using Ripley and Python's Read Evaluate Print Loop, lead a group though
> the basic Python syntax. The assumption is they know about programming and
> need to be introduced to Python."  - https://github.com/CarlFK/Ripley/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_CarlFK_Ripley_&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=LLopi_kWSwnOQ0uVtxbg170Z-5hEoj93XGoBwIMdE5k&e=>
>
> > addresses the differences
>
> I wonder if that is really a good use of time.  That sounds to me like
> "forget what you have learned over the last 5 years" which is going to be
> really hard.
>
> I suspect time is better used just teaching good python.
>
> But I should leave this to someone who has studied how to teach.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DOSGv2VnC0go&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=0Rvh_hmWpz77sOlkz9Qlbw9yqiuYHdZHzTbVlc4SvHU&e=>>,
> this
> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dirtsimple.org_2004_12_python-2Dis-2Dnot-2Djava.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=-OEYLwLvldQzhFkDhUfoBpRgp6lbX7L46RwpIk1-Az4&e=>>
> article, what
> > would you recommend?
> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
> > of design patterns could work.
> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D0vJJlVBVTFg&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=yAoTl1qZocbApZSRrGqz1Qvkuv1izU-aIx2FNx-0ksM&e=>>
> on
> > Python design patterns.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
> >
> >> The tutorial on python.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=sotya0IU9jBNK47swF2LE5Z_5RE351SocPZmz2r9YDU&e=>
> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
> >>
> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>
> >>
> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> >>
> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
> time
> >> on basic programming concepts.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/
> listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=nS1Vy24jnTkqavGZTmrzdNUCKh15GDZq3J3RwV2fAKk&e=>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Carl K
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:20:58 -0600
> From: Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID:
>         <CAMqL=ihSgv8XHC_FHnrGFtCPfchhP5OKYX_ba0R2H=VEt
> fOiaw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-
> public-data-hacking.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pyvideo.org_pycon-2Dus-2D2013_learn-2Dpython-2Dthrough-2Dpublic-2Ddata-2Dhacking.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=qrffWijPLqubnfRHcLSyOSPMJ6M5XriZEps0fb80veY&e=>
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> specific
> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
> basic
> > programming concepts.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
> >
> >
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 23:38:15 -0600
> From: Michael Tamillow <mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID: <E713DA93-27CD-4EEA-82C4-2A45E6B6241F at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Just on the topic of learning new things, I think it is a good idea to
> follow the same paths as people who are already doing it - skip forward
> when things are too easy, and step back when things become difficult to
> comprehend.
>
> But I would say the best way to make a jump like that is to just read
> source code. Ask questions about the source code through google. There are
> tons of mature packages already with anaconda, just bust one open and try
> to understand it.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:20 PM, Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-
> public-data-hacking.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pyvideo.org_pycon-2Dus-2D2013_learn-2Dpython-2Dthrough-2Dpublic-2Ddata-2Dhacking.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=qrffWijPLqubnfRHcLSyOSPMJ6M5XriZEps0fb80veY&e=>
> >
> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
> on basic programming concepts.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:12:14 -0600
> From: Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID:
>         <CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg@
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes
> <http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pyvideo.org_pycon-2Dus-2D2012_stop-2Dwriting-2Dclasses.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=IrgQmeFNT2MjP93tAD8pHs0mMGoDMNvM5d2UUXnbz_Q&e=>>
> talk really
> emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from more
> verbose langs.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DOSGv2VnC0go&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=0Rvh_hmWpz77sOlkz9Qlbw9yqiuYHdZHzTbVlc4SvHU&e=>>,
> this
> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dirtsimple.org_2004_12_python-2Dis-2Dnot-2Djava.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=-OEYLwLvldQzhFkDhUfoBpRgp6lbX7L46RwpIk1-Az4&e=>>
> article, what
> > would you recommend?
> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the language
> > of design patterns could work.
> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D0vJJlVBVTFg&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=yAoTl1qZocbApZSRrGqz1Qvkuv1izU-aIx2FNx-0ksM&e=>>
> on
> > Python design patterns.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
> >
> >> The tutorial on python.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=sotya0IU9jBNK47swF2LE5Z_5RE351SocPZmz2r9YDU&e=>
> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
> >>
> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>
> >>
> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> >>
> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
> time
> >> on basic programming concepts.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/
> listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=nS1Vy24jnTkqavGZTmrzdNUCKh15GDZq3J3RwV2fAKk&e=>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
> >
> >
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:42:16 -0600
> From: Chris Foresman <foresmac at gmail.com>
> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
> Message-ID: <2A938CBA-8BF3-47C2-9120-8C1742EA0D08 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> What would you recommend for Python devs that need to learn Java (besides
> applying for a different job :P )?
>
>
> Chris Foresman
> foresmac at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 2, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes <
> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pyvideo.org_pycon-2Dus-2D2012_stop-2Dwriting-2Dclasses.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=IrgQmeFNT2MjP93tAD8pHs0mMGoDMNvM5d2UUXnbz_Q&e=>>
> talk really emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who
> come from more verbose langs.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
> tathagatadg at gmail.com <mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk <
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DOSGv2VnC0go&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=0Rvh_hmWpz77sOlkz9Qlbw9yqiuYHdZHzTbVlc4SvHU&e=>>,
> this <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dirtsimple.org_2004_12_python-2Dis-2Dnot-2Djava.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=-OEYLwLvldQzhFkDhUfoBpRgp6lbX7L46RwpIk1-Az4&e=>>
> article, what would you recommend?
> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
> language of design patterns could work.
> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D0vJJlVBVTFg&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=yAoTl1qZocbApZSRrGqz1Qvkuv1izU-aIx2FNx-0ksM&e=>>
> on Python design patterns.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org <mailto:
> jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
> > The tutorial on python.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=sotya0IU9jBNK47swF2LE5Z_5RE351SocPZmz2r9YDU&e=>
> <http://python.org/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__python.org_&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=3dEkBv_2SGTTJQqsF6k6HNhQc2mx6OMYE8Op2zGjEbI&e=>>
> is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't waste a lot of time trying to
> explain what an if statement is:
> >
> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>
> <https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.python.org_3_tutorial_controlflow.html-23if-2Dstatements&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=4L4pvRv0dtzJXzIXO-JXaNDrjJRSJKif2iqounAjIAw&e=>
> >
> >
> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
> you want to use it to work through the examples.
> >
> >
> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer
> >>         wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource that
> >>         addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
> >>         programming concepts.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
> <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mail.python.org_mailman_listinfo_chicago&d=DQMFaQ&c=gtIjdLs6LnStUpy9cTOW9w&r=VXIryE9UwJGlNMLzgMzDT4_t2NMrZf6alSphHwSEwC0&m=Cw7u_Y0VfiYexn6CP4Y0mcMlcDU7P07Pl-gJZjCrJz4&s=_1LS-VQcJpa7ssltu_Y3apvSkkkq4PMDK7PluY92wS0&e=>
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> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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> --
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> Carl K
>
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From shekay at pobox.com  Tue Dec  6 11:13:21 2016
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 10:13:21 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <CANc-5UzMHO5xrCc7nHEd9NLZmQLnhr=6KkpdH8gCAPWVuzUyYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9u=BSq1kPeVdOz9Ft56wQeRUyXVXtp1zB1tQRvzxugDjrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEwvNMg8k4x_ey--PrSjp90+kY5Z+_ug7zy-Ee28rGhDgr5qHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjDeUwQLp7t4eW0Fwm3BKashHRKH4pigVw+hLnfABvm1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UxFiBhLn7D0Lhz7r7+7oM3qgY9iYEu3GoOBm1qn71enVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UwU+ff0Yf7FS1UXjdup+tySN6xdQFYbOCZMTrawP_34jA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzMHO5xrCc7nHEd9NLZmQLnhr=6KkpdH8gCAPWVuzUyYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_rYgWS+SUTPg4zwUKLeyMq5OpyR4R+2sjEoTB1zpZ0ursw@mail.gmail.com>

Later versions of Java allowed you to do things in more concise ways. It's
like they were learning lessons from other languages as the years went by.

I haven't followed Java much past 1.6 and early 1.7 but I remember a few
things like generics, interfaces, and some popular frameworks like Spring
which gave you dependency injection. There were also some patterns people
followed that made things handy, such as fluent programming, and small
differences in approaches like that.

I miss the Java dependency management and packaging. With something like
gradle, maven, and with using a private repository it was nice to build and
deploy things. ...or it might be that my expectations were warped by
infrastructure that already existed when I showed up to the Java scene. In
any case, The python experience of web and web service deployments and
dependency management isn't up to my expectations yet. There are all these
annoyances. There are annoyances and tradeoffs you make with every system
though. Right now I'm annoyed at go dependency management.



On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I've kind of been half following this thread (mean to check out some of
> the video links). As not a Java person (never even written "hello world" in
> Java), what does version 8 (or less?) have to do with how you approach
> teaching Python to a Java developer?
>
> Skip
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>


-- 
shekay at pobox.com
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From shekay at pobox.com  Tue Dec  6 11:17:32 2016
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 10:17:32 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
In-Reply-To: <50869A74BA4F07468AD797C9BFF1FE3E288CB2A7@A0185-XPO1026-C.ad.allstate.com>
References: <CA+bo0=Tjkq4A4=v2-Jf4v3Ni0Q5NjptGFhwf7VRC59=_cLzOGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9u=BSq1kPeVdOz9Ft56wQeRUyXVXtp1zB1tQRvzxugDjrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEwvNMg8k4x_ey--PrSjp90+kY5Z+_ug7zy-Ee28rGhDgr5qHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjDeUwQLp7t4eW0Fwm3BKashHRKH4pigVw+hLnfABvm1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <50869A74BA4F07468AD797C9BFF1FE3E288CB2A7@A0185-XPO1026-C.ad.allstate.com>
Message-ID: <CAHCs_rYUuXW9kQ9n-EaxOXnRz1-PvhMSQFHGXsgUkQB3bf2nfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Robare, Phillip (TEKSystems) <
proba at allstate.com> wrote:

> [...] This is usually taught in a ?Survey of Programming Languages? class,
> typically taught mid-way through the undergraduate CS curriculum.  I would
> argue however that it should be revisited in the graduate curriculum since
> there is such a rich intersection of psychology, hardware and theoretical
> computation here.
>

I took a class like that as an undergrad and I had a blast. It's been a
while so I might have the syllabus wrong, but here's what I remember: We
went through different approaches to memory management; and we also covered
different language paradigms such as logical, functional, procedural,
object oriented. We'd do some exercises in each language. I remember
enjoying prolog and ml the most. I wouldn't mind taking another class like
this. I've forgotten a lot and there'd be plenty of new things to learn as
well.


-- 
shekay at pobox.com
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From joe.jasinski at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 23:32:49 2016
From: joe.jasinski at gmail.com (Joe Jasinski)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 22:32:49 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy December 2016 Meeting
Message-ID: <CACdfcwXfRJ3xPO91mKE268fWb8K5dDezrVfWXKfE-_m-Ck=2Nw@mail.gmail.com>

ChiPy,

This month's meeting is almost here and we have a great lineup of Python
talks!

Hope to see you there!


*When:*
Thursday December 8th
6:00pm:  doors open; food arrives
7:00pm:  Talks Start promptly at 7


*How:*You can rsvp at chipy.org or via our Meetup
<https://www.meetup.com/_ChiPy_/events/235554012/> group.

*Where:*
LaSalle Network
200 N LaSalle St, Chicago, IL 60606
26th Floor

*What:*


   - *Smuggling Snakes in a Box: A Docker + Python Love Story*
   By: Hector Rios
   Experience Level: Novice
   Do you yearn? Have you ever tried to volunteer at a project but had an
   extremely difficult time trying to get everyone the right development
   environment? Do you ever work with a project that works in your computer
   but not in a server? Do you have a different dependency versions? (btw,
   that's kinda bad practice but don't fret, we gotchu) Yearn no more! With
   Docker, these things can be a thing of the past. Join in a brief, live
   coding session that will show you how to build a simple Bottle app and put
   it into a Docker container.
   - *Python in the Classroom and at Sea*
   By: Thane Richard
   I was Ray's mentee during the summer of 2016. My project lets a player
   of Minecraft Pi 3D print an object they have built in the game. I will
   co-present this project with Peg Keiner, the Technology Director at GEMS
   World Academy in Chicago where my program was used in their elementary
   school classroom this Fall. I will also share some neat projects from my
   stint this Fall as a High School Marine Science teacher aboard the schooner
   Roseway during Ocean Classroom (worldoceanschool.org). I introduced
   students to Python and had them design and code a sensor kit with Raspberry
   Pi's to measure an aspect of the sailboat. The code is viewable on my
   github profile: https://github.com/thaneofcawdor.
   - *Using pyodbc to execute SQL queries*
   By: Anish Krishnan
   How to access a database using pyodbc, and how to execute basic queries
   through Python.



Thanks always to all our Platinum sponsors, especially: Braintree,
Imaginary Landscape, and Telnyx.

Please be aware of our code of conduct http://www.chipy.org/pages/conduct/

See you there!



-- 
Joe J. Jasinski
www.joejasinski.com
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From jdumblauskas at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 15:55:43 2016
From: jdumblauskas at gmail.com (Jerry Dumblauskas)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:55:43 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Job Opportunities
Message-ID: <CA+G_OOvAdMXVbY2KUaDP_P9ye8SoCkHARr=WKJYi912fAoA01Q@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone is looking please check out https://boards.greenhouse.io/
telnyx/jobs/478908#.WEgz8dUrIuU.  If interested please ping me on this
(this is thru our referral program  http://www.chipy.org/pages/referrals/ )

thx

Jerry
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From benmcinturff at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 17:20:38 2016
From: benmcinturff at gmail.com (Ben McInturff)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:20:38 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Django Development Postition Available
Message-ID: <5fd0ddef-a4a3-6990-c7c5-c4e57a06c57b@gmail.com>

Hello Chipy:

We have a full time position for software engineering position in a 
rapidly growing tele-healthcare company, First Stop Health.

We are an open source shop that is mid process through a migration from 
PHP to Django and are looking for a motivated full stack engineer to 
work on a growing team.

We are seeking an intermediate level developer who has around 3 years 
experience with all aspects of an n-tier application with web/mobile 
clients.

Please contact development at fsheatlh.com or myself with details if you 
are interested or with any questions you might have.

Thank you,

Ben McInturff


From benmcinturff at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 22:33:41 2016
From: benmcinturff at gmail.com (Ben McInturff)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 03:33:41 +0000
Subject: [Chicago] Django Development Postition Available
In-Reply-To: <5fd0ddef-a4a3-6990-c7c5-c4e57a06c57b@gmail.com>
References: <5fd0ddef-a4a3-6990-c7c5-c4e57a06c57b@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADh=OOoZvQw=EBm1RAoAnFCz5nvSjFPmg0TcAi3waCLUPY4Rkg@mail.gmail.com>

Email is development at fshealth.com, apologies.

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016, 4:20 PM Ben McInturff <benmcinturff at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Chipy:
>
> We have a full time position for software engineering position in a
> rapidly growing tele-healthcare company, First Stop Health.
>
> We are an open source shop that is mid process through a migration from
> PHP to Django and are looking for a motivated full stack engineer to
> work on a growing team.
>
> We are seeking an intermediate level developer who has around 3 years
> experience with all aspects of an n-tier application with web/mobile
> clients.
>
> Please contact development at fsheatlh.com or myself with details if you
> are interested or with any questions you might have.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ben McInturff
>
>
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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Thu Dec 15 12:29:22 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:29:22 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>

I am looking to spin up my first cloud sever for python development/hosting
and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on:

   1. Digital Ocean vs Linode
   2. CentOS (Red Hat) vs Ubuntu

With admittedly limited experience, I don't see much difference separating
Digital Ocean and Linode.  I believe Chipy is hosted on Digital Ocean.

For the second option, which OS is used in more professional shops.  I know
Red Hat was the enterprise king for many years, but I get the impression
that Ubuntu Server may be displacing it.  Are old school organizations
still running Red Hat with startups moving to Ubuntu?

Thanks,

Aaron
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From that.hector at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 12:38:32 2016
From: that.hector at gmail.com (Hector Rios)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:38:32 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Story Time Slides for "Smuggling Snakes in a Box: A
 Docker + python love story"
Message-ID: <CAOdQB3i_3q=cVQUa3AVEgDUDifHacsbBafiD-9uHcyyWD-VLrg@mail.gmail.com>

Hey folks,

I mentioned at the last ChiPy meeting that I'd put up the slides and code
for the talk. You can view the slides here:
slides.com/hectron/smuggling-snakes-in-a-box

The code sample and the Docker configurations can be found here:

https://github.com/hectron/anxiety

For the Chipprs who missed it, the talk focused on what Docker was, how it
is useful for development and testing, and how to create a simple Python
Bottle app that talks to a containerized Postgres instance.

Please spread the love!
Cheers,

{
    "name": "Hector Rios",
    "title": "Software Engineer",
    "contact": {
            "linkedin": "hrios10",
            "gmail": "that.hector",
            "site": "http://hectron.github.io/"
    }
}
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From comicpilsen at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 15:26:26 2016
From: comicpilsen at gmail.com (comicpilsen)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 14:26:26 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13e327fc-0eaf-dd8a-68d7-9bd8df3cfe3c@gmail.com>

Hi there

I am planning on deploying a website and sentdex has always been a great help to myself
and others.  I learnt Python using his youtube tutorials and Dave Beazley's excellent
Python Cookbook.  SO if you like the sound of Sentdex you might like to consider
Digital Ocean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-CT_l1dnVU

comicpilsen


On 12/15/2016 11:29 AM, Aaron Elmquist wrote:
> I am looking to spin up my first cloud sever for python development/hosting and was
> wondering if anyone had any thoughts on:
>
>  1. Digital Ocean vs Linode
>  2. CentOS (Red Hat) vs Ubuntu
>
> With admittedly limited experience, I don't see much difference separating Digital Ocean
> and Linode.  I believe Chipy is hosted on Digital Ocean. 
>
> For the second option, which OS is used in more professional shops.  I know Red Hat was
> the enterprise king for many years, but I get the impression that Ubuntu Server may be
> displacing it.  Are old school organizations still running Red Hat with startups moving
> to Ubuntu? 
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From val.kolovos at analytehealth.com  Thu Dec 15 13:06:13 2016
From: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com (Val Kolovos)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:06:13 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BDD1B91D-C46B-4FF7-BB89-4D4E8087B4D3@analytehealth.com>

FWIW - My $.02

Digital Ocean - Pricing is roughly the same, but DO?s interface and documentation is better than Linode.
Ubuntu - Personal preference here, so I don?t want to start a holy war, but I find apt easier to work with than yum and Ubuntu just generally easier to navigate. Also, we use Ubuntu for our apps.

-- 
Vasili (Val) Kolovos
Director of Platform Services

Phone: 312-477-3025 <tel://312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
Email: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com <mailto:val.kolovos at analytehealth.com>
www.analytehealth.com <http://www.analytehealth.com/>

328 S. Jefferson Street
Suite 770



> On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:29 AM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
> 
> I am looking to spin up my first cloud sever for python development/hosting and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on:
> Digital Ocean vs Linode
> CentOS (Red Hat) vs Ubuntu
> With admittedly limited experience, I don't see much difference separating Digital Ocean and Linode.  I believe Chipy is hosted on Digital Ocean.  
> 
> 
> For the second option, which OS is used in more professional shops.  I know Red Hat was the enterprise king for many years, but I get the impression that Ubuntu Server may be displacing it.  Are old school organizations still running Red Hat with startups moving to Ubuntu?  
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Aaron
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From comicpilsen at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 15:45:54 2016
From: comicpilsen at gmail.com (comicpilsen)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 14:45:54 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <BDD1B91D-C46B-4FF7-BB89-4D4E8087B4D3@analytehealth.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BDD1B91D-C46B-4FF7-BB89-4D4E8087B4D3@analytehealth.com>
Message-ID: <5b841e67-83cc-0030-0da3-26a722a52dab@gmail.com>

as a complete novice in BOTH these areas I second Vasili's sage advice. Even I can
understand DO and using Ubuntu is a dream. Apt is really easy to use.

comicpilsen



On 12/15/2016 12:06 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago wrote:
> FWIW - My $.02
>
> Digital Ocean - Pricing is roughly the same, but DO?s interface and documentation is
> better than Linode.
> Ubuntu - Personal preference here, so I don?t want to start a holy war, but I find apt
> easier to work with than yum and Ubuntu just generally easier to navigate. Also, we use
> Ubuntu for our apps.
>
> -- 
> *Vasili (Val) Kolovos*
> Director of Platform Services
>
> *Phone:* 312-477-3025 <tel://312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
> *Email: *val.kolovos at analytehealth.com <mailto:val.kolovos at analytehealth.com>
> www.analytehealth.com <http://www.analytehealth.com/>
>
> 328 S. Jefferson Street
> Suite 770
>
>
>
>> On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:29 AM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu
>> <mailto:elmq0022 at umn.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> I am looking to spin up my first cloud sever for python development/hosting and was
>> wondering if anyone had any thoughts on:
>>
>>  1. Digital Ocean vs Linode
>>  2. CentOS (Red Hat) vs Ubuntu
>>
>> With admittedly limited experience, I don't see much difference separating Digital
>> Ocean and Linode.  I believe Chipy is hosted on Digital Ocean. 
>>
>>
>> For the second option, which OS is used in more professional shops.  I know Red Hat was
>> the enterprise king for many years, but I get the impression that Ubuntu Server may be
>> displacing it.  Are old school organizations still running Red Hat with startups moving
>> to Ubuntu? 
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From sakamura at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 15:57:43 2016
From: sakamura at gmail.com (Ishmael Rufus)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 14:57:43 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <5b841e67-83cc-0030-0da3-26a722a52dab@gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BDD1B91D-C46B-4FF7-BB89-4D4E8087B4D3@analytehealth.com>
 <5b841e67-83cc-0030-0da3-26a722a52dab@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL-SDLED8UhkXOdrFFemB0_tdkb2eYRwy_mV5OxNbtQBLp++hQ@mail.gmail.com>

>From my personal experience Digital Ocean has tons of Tutorials for setting
up numerous types of servers as well as a Q&A section for DO customers.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:45 PM, comicpilsen <comicpilsen at gmail.com> wrote:

> as a complete novice in BOTH these areas I second Vasili's sage advice.
> Even I can understand DO and using Ubuntu is a dream. Apt is really easy to
> use.
>
> comicpilsen
>
>
>
> On 12/15/2016 12:06 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago wrote:
>
> FWIW - My $.02
>
> Digital Ocean - Pricing is roughly the same, but DO?s interface and
> documentation is better than Linode.
> Ubuntu - Personal preference here, so I don?t want to start a holy war,
> but I find apt easier to work with than yum and Ubuntu just generally
> easier to navigate. Also, we use Ubuntu for our apps.
>
> --
> *Vasili (Val) Kolovos*
> Director of Platform Services
>
> *Phone:* 312-477-3025 <//312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
> *Email: *val.kolovos at analytehealth.com
> www.analytehealth.com
>
> 328 S. Jefferson Street
> Suite 770
>
>
>
> On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:29 AM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
> I am looking to spin up my first cloud sever for python
> development/hosting and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on:
>
>    1. Digital Ocean vs Linode
>    2. CentOS (Red Hat) vs Ubuntu
>
> With admittedly limited experience, I don't see much difference separating
> Digital Ocean and Linode.  I believe Chipy is hosted on Digital Ocean.
>
> For the second option, which OS is used in more professional shops.  I
> know Red Hat was the enterprise king for many years, but I get the
> impression that Ubuntu Server may be displacing it.  Are old school
> organizations still running Red Hat with startups moving to Ubuntu?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aaron
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From jordanb at hafd.org  Thu Dec 15 15:51:34 2016
From: jordanb at hafd.org (Jordan Bettis)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 14:51:34 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>

I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I would not
recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible security track record.

If you want to host a Django, etc app perhaps you should consider a
service like heroku which lets you host your site without maintaining
the vps yourself. Another option worth considering is AWS.

On 12/15/2016 11:29 AM, Aaron Elmquist wrote:
> I am looking to spin up my first cloud sever for python
> development/hosting and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on:
> 
>  1. Digital Ocean vs Linode
>  2. CentOS (Red Hat) vs Ubuntu
> 
> With admittedly limited experience, I don't see much difference
> separating Digital Ocean and Linode.  I believe Chipy is hosted on
> Digital Ocean. 
> 
> For the second option, which OS is used in more professional shops.  I
> know Red Hat was the enterprise king for many years, but I get the
> impression that Ubuntu Server may be displacing it.  Are old school
> organizations still running Red Hat with startups moving to Ubuntu? 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Aaron
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 


From carl at personnelware.com  Thu Dec 15 16:14:02 2016
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:14:02 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:

> I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I would not
> recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible security track record.
>

Jordan - any thoughts on Digital Ocean?

Aaron - Ubutu, or really I would say Debian for a server unless you know
you need something else, in which case you would not be asking ;)

for a little write up on why Ubuntu, look at the bottom for "Which Distro?"
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten

-- 
Carl K
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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Thu Dec 15 16:35:03 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:35:03 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
 <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9unXynXZc8rB1hJQ=xYxg2=26sZ6c5tX4bPQwhvt93__9w@mail.gmail.com>

All good advice and thank you for the replies.  I will likely give Digital
Ocean and Ubuntu a spin very soon.


On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
wrote:

>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I would not
>> recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible security track record.
>>
>
> Jordan - any thoughts on Digital Ocean?
>
> Aaron - Ubutu, or really I would say Debian for a server unless you know
> you need something else, in which case you would not be asking ;)
>
> for a little write up on why Ubuntu, look at the bottom for "Which Distro?"
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten
>
> --
> Carl K
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From zah.andrew at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 17:02:24 2016
From: zah.andrew at gmail.com (Andrew Zah)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:02:24 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9unXynXZc8rB1hJQ=xYxg2=26sZ6c5tX4bPQwhvt93__9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
 <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9unXynXZc8rB1hJQ=xYxg2=26sZ6c5tX4bPQwhvt93__9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9BAEB846-10A8-478D-927F-44B1A3EBD125@gmail.com>

DigitalOcean is great. Ive used it for about 2 years now. They have a ton of quality tutorials on *nix configuration and whatnot.

Students can also get free credit on DO through Github's education pack.

I'd also recommend ChicagoVPS, I switched to them as I found better deals ($5/mo for 5 GB memory) than DO.

Andrew 

> On Dec 15, 2016, at 15:35, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
> 
> All good advice and thank you for the replies.  I will likely give Digital Ocean and Ubuntu a spin very soon.  
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>> I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I would not
>>> recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible security track record.
>> 
>> Jordan - any thoughts on Digital Ocean?
>> 
>> Aaron - Ubutu, or really I would say Debian for a server unless you know you need something else, in which case you would not be asking ;)
>> 
>> for a little write up on why Ubuntu, look at the bottom for "Which Distro?"
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten
>> 
>> -- 
>> Carl K
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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From japhy at pearachute.com  Thu Dec 15 18:20:27 2016
From: japhy at pearachute.com (Japhy Bartlett)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:20:27 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <9BAEB846-10A8-478D-927F-44B1A3EBD125@gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
 <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9unXynXZc8rB1hJQ=xYxg2=26sZ6c5tX4bPQwhvt93__9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9BAEB846-10A8-478D-927F-44B1A3EBD125@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANTsVHLq4wdRwnxmbjm_07EQF0+NAKrU3PaG=9BYyZCJz4nB4g@mail.gmail.com>

+1, i have used linode for years, slowly transitioning away.  Bad security
record, and pretty regular forced reboots / downtime for maintenance (3 or
4x / year?).   They used to be so great, but it feels more and more like
everyone else has surpassed them by now.

DO is solid, EC2 is also very good, even just to get some experience with
Amazon's ecosystem.


- Japhy



On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Andrew Zah <zah.andrew at gmail.com> wrote:

> DigitalOcean is great. Ive used it for about 2 years now. They have a ton
> of quality tutorials on *nix configuration and whatnot.
>
> Students can also get free credit on DO through Github's education pack.
>
> I'd also recommend ChicagoVPS, I switched to them as I found better deals
> ($5/mo for 5 GB memory) than DO.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Dec 15, 2016, at 15:35, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
> All good advice and thank you for the replies.  I will likely give Digital
> Ocean and Ubuntu a spin very soon.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I would not
>>> recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible security track record.
>>>
>>
>> Jordan - any thoughts on Digital Ocean?
>>
>> Aaron - Ubutu, or really I would say Debian for a server unless you know
>> you need something else, in which case you would not be asking ;)
>>
>> for a little write up on why Ubuntu, look at the bottom for "Which
>> Distro?"
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten
>>
>> --
>> Carl K
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From val.kolovos at analytehealth.com  Thu Dec 15 18:35:04 2016
From: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com (Val Kolovos)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:35:04 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CANTsVHLq4wdRwnxmbjm_07EQF0+NAKrU3PaG=9BYyZCJz4nB4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
 <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9unXynXZc8rB1hJQ=xYxg2=26sZ6c5tX4bPQwhvt93__9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9BAEB846-10A8-478D-927F-44B1A3EBD125@gmail.com>
 <CANTsVHLq4wdRwnxmbjm_07EQF0+NAKrU3PaG=9BYyZCJz4nB4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C4CA494C-B6AE-4957-A809-7F46599C6D26@analytehealth.com>

I?d add in that using EC2 is a pretty good idea because, like Japhy said, it gets you experience with the Amazon ecosystem, which is worth more than just a little these days. Their free tier will work for you for a year and is certainly enough to get a home project off the ground.

-- 
Vasili (Val) Kolovos
Director of Platform Services

Phone: 312-477-3025 <tel://312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
Email: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com <mailto:val.kolovos at analytehealth.com>
www.analytehealth.com <http://www.analytehealth.com/>

328 S. Jefferson Street
Suite 770



> On Dec 15, 2016, at 4:20 PM, Japhy Bartlett <japhy at pearachute.com> wrote:
> 
> +1, i have used linode for years, slowly transitioning away.  Bad security record, and pretty regular forced reboots / downtime for maintenance (3 or 4x / year?).   They used to be so great, but it feels more and more like everyone else has surpassed them by now.
> 
> DO is solid, EC2 is also very good, even just to get some experience with Amazon's ecosystem.
> 
> 
> - Japhy
> 
>  
> 
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Andrew Zah <zah.andrew at gmail.com <mailto:zah.andrew at gmail.com>> wrote:
> DigitalOcean is great. Ive used it for about 2 years now. They have a ton of quality tutorials on *nix configuration and whatnot.
> 
> Students can also get free credit on DO through Github's education pack.
> 
> I'd also recommend ChicagoVPS, I switched to them as I found better deals ($5/mo for 5 GB memory) than DO.
> 
> Andrew 
> 
> On Dec 15, 2016, at 15:35, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu <mailto:elmq0022 at umn.edu>> wrote:
> 
>> All good advice and thank you for the replies.  I will likely give Digital Ocean and Ubuntu a spin very soon.  
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com <mailto:carl at personnelware.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org <mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
>> I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I would not
>> recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible security track record.
>> 
>> Jordan - any thoughts on Digital Ocean?
>> 
>> Aaron - Ubutu, or really I would say Debian for a server unless you know you need something else, in which case you would not be asking ;)
>> 
>> for a little write up on why Ubuntu, look at the bottom for "Which Distro?"
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten>
>> 
>> -- 
>> Carl K
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From carl at personnelware.com  Thu Dec 15 19:21:49 2016
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:21:49 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] free ec2 ? was:  Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
Message-ID: <CADmzSSiAVJCQa9sQWjjzZXFY_Z-zGjXcvFFod=y6jeNK9zbhUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <chicago at python.org
> wrote:

> EC2 ... free tier


wut?



-- 
Carl K
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From val.kolovos at analytehealth.com  Thu Dec 15 19:23:30 2016
From: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com (Val Kolovos)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:23:30 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] free ec2 ? was:  Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSiAVJCQa9sQWjjzZXFY_Z-zGjXcvFFod=y6jeNK9zbhUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSiAVJCQa9sQWjjzZXFY_Z-zGjXcvFFod=y6jeNK9zbhUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3654F3FF-2416-4095-86A2-094EBCB80B21@analytehealth.com>

https://aws.amazon.com/free/

-- 
Vasili (Val) Kolovos
Director of Platform Services

Phone: 312-477-3025 <tel://312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
Email: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com <mailto:val.kolovos at analytehealth.com>
www.analytehealth.com <http://www.analytehealth.com/>

328 S. Jefferson Street
Suite 770



> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:21 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <chicago at python.org <mailto:chicago at python.org>> wrote:
> EC2 ... free tier
> 
> wut?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Carl K
> 

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From val.kolovos at analytehealth.com  Thu Dec 15 19:24:08 2016
From: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com (Val Kolovos)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:24:08 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] free ec2 ? was:  Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <3654F3FF-2416-4095-86A2-094EBCB80B21@analytehealth.com>
References: <CADmzSSiAVJCQa9sQWjjzZXFY_Z-zGjXcvFFod=y6jeNK9zbhUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3654F3FF-2416-4095-86A2-094EBCB80B21@analytehealth.com>
Message-ID: <9EA0F1E6-0F6A-49C1-AED6-957DF3C17399@analytehealth.com>

Limited to a year, but that?s enough time to get familiarized.

-- 
Vasili (Val) Kolovos
Director of Platform Services

Phone: 312-477-3025 <tel://312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
Email: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com <mailto:val.kolovos at analytehealth.com>
www.analytehealth.com <http://www.analytehealth.com/>

328 S. Jefferson Street
Suite 770



> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:23 PM, Val Kolovos <val.kolovos at analytehealth.com> wrote:
> 
> https://aws.amazon.com/free/ <https://aws.amazon.com/free/>
> 
> -- 
> Vasili (Val) Kolovos
> Director of Platform Services
> 
> Phone: 312-477-3025 <tel://312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
> Email: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com <mailto:val.kolovos at analytehealth.com>
> www.analytehealth.com <http://www.analytehealth.com/>
> 
> 328 S. Jefferson Street
> Suite 770
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:21 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <chicago at python.org <mailto:chicago at python.org>> wrote:
>> EC2 ... free tier
>> 
>> wut?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Carl K
>> 
> 

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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Thu Dec 15 19:41:25 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:41:25 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] free ec2 ? was: Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <3654F3FF-2416-4095-86A2-094EBCB80B21@analytehealth.com>
References: <CADmzSSiAVJCQa9sQWjjzZXFY_Z-zGjXcvFFod=y6jeNK9zbhUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3654F3FF-2416-4095-86A2-094EBCB80B21@analytehealth.com>
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9unrtNxbL0FqAtmVBDaKqmf2oXw3+ET4mOQRiTPTySWPfg@mail.gmail.com>

Free AWS is cool too.  It's worth exploring for sure.  Any issues migrating
between them and digital ocean?

I am sure elastic bean stalk out even a straight up Linux server there
would be great for almost any web dev.

Unfortunately AWS docs just don't speak to me. I was hoping working with an
"easier service" might be better to start.

I hope I am not the only one scratching their heads after looking at some
of the AWS docs.

On Dec 15, 2016 6:24 PM, "Val Kolovos via Chicago" <chicago at python.org>
wrote:

> https://aws.amazon.com/free/
>
> --
> *Vasili (Val) Kolovos*
> Director of Platform Services
>
> *Phone:* 312-477-3025 <//312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
> *Email: *val.kolovos at analytehealth.com
> www.analytehealth.com
>
> 328 S. Jefferson Street
> Suite 770
>
>
>
> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:21 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <
> chicago at python.org> wrote:
>
>> EC2 ... free tier
>
>
> wut?
>
>
>
> --
> Carl K
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From val.kolovos at analytehealth.com  Thu Dec 15 20:18:47 2016
From: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com (Val Kolovos)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:18:47 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] free ec2 ? was: Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9unrtNxbL0FqAtmVBDaKqmf2oXw3+ET4mOQRiTPTySWPfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSiAVJCQa9sQWjjzZXFY_Z-zGjXcvFFod=y6jeNK9zbhUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3654F3FF-2416-4095-86A2-094EBCB80B21@analytehealth.com>
 <CAPrZ9unrtNxbL0FqAtmVBDaKqmf2oXw3+ET4mOQRiTPTySWPfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03307F62-6B51-47E6-88FE-A8CA9FDE6BDE@analytehealth.com>

Kinda depends on how much AWS koolaid you drink. If all you use is EC2 just to fire up an Ubuntu instance, and you do your own database configuration and such, it?s really not much different than Digital Ocean. However, if you start diving into RDS and everything, it can get a little trickier to migrate. Also, no? you?re not the only one scratching your head on AWS. I?d certainly say that Digital Ocean is a little more straightforward to get going on, but as mentioned earlier, AWS is something worth learning about.

That said, anything you learn on Digital Ocean will mostly translate pretty quickly to AWS.

Again, my $.02

-- 
Vasili (Val) Kolovos
Director of Platform Services

Phone: 312-477-3025 <tel://312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
Email: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com <mailto:val.kolovos at analytehealth.com>
www.analytehealth.com <http://www.analytehealth.com/>

328 S. Jefferson Street
Suite 770



> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:41 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
> 
> Free AWS is cool too.  It's worth exploring for sure.  Any issues migrating between them and digital ocean?  
> 
> I am sure elastic bean stalk out even a straight up Linux server there would be great for almost any web dev.  
> 
> Unfortunately AWS docs just don't speak to me. I was hoping working with an "easier service" might be better to start.  
> 
> I hope I am not the only one scratching their heads after looking at some of the AWS docs.  
> 
> On Dec 15, 2016 6:24 PM, "Val Kolovos via Chicago" <chicago at python.org <mailto:chicago at python.org>> wrote:
> https://aws.amazon.com/free/ <https://aws.amazon.com/free/>
> 
> -- 
> Vasili (Val) Kolovos
> Director of Platform Services
> 
> Phone: 312-477-3025 <tel://312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
> Email: val.kolovos at analytehealth.com <mailto:val.kolovos at analytehealth.com>
> www.analytehealth.com <http://www.analytehealth.com/>
> 
> 328 S. Jefferson Street
> Suite 770
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:21 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com <mailto:carl at personnelware.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <chicago at python.org <mailto:chicago at python.org>> wrote:
>> EC2 ... free tier
>> 
>> wut?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Carl K
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> 

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From jordanb at hafd.org  Thu Dec 15 21:02:40 2016
From: jordanb at hafd.org (Jordan Bettis)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 20:02:40 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
 <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58534B40.40101@hafd.org>

The only bad thing I ever heard about DO is apparently at the beginning 
they weren't zeroing the disk between customers and, when caught, were 
evasive and defensive. I don't have personal experience with them though 
and if that was their only "hiccup" it's pretty mild compared to all the 
things that have gone down at linode.

On 12/15/2016 03:14 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org 
> <mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
>
>     I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I would not
>     recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible security track
>     record.
>
>
> Jordan - any thoughts on Digital Ocean?
>
> Aaron - Ubutu, or really I would say Debian for a server unless you 
> know you need something else, in which case you would not be asking ;)
>
> for a little write up on why Ubuntu, look at the bottom for "Which 
> Distro?"
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten
>
> -- 
> Carl K
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From lane at strapr.com  Fri Dec 16 00:21:14 2016
From: lane at strapr.com (Lane Campbell)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 21:21:14 -0800
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <58534B40.40101@hafd.org>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
 <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <58534B40.40101@hafd.org>
Message-ID: <CADQXWrUbFhK-d3USE7c79VqsjETan0jURyFet4j2GnPjBiUoGQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've been using DO for years and had nothing but positive experiences with
their platform.

It's also easy to learn their dashboard compared to nearly every other
cloud provider out there.


Regards,
Lane Campbell
(312) 775-2632

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:

> The only bad thing I ever heard about DO is apparently at the beginning
> they weren't zeroing the disk between customers and, when caught, were
> evasive and defensive. I don't have personal experience with them though
> and if that was their only "hiccup" it's pretty mild compared to all the
> things that have gone down at linode.
>
>
> On 12/15/2016 03:14 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I would not
>> recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible security track record.
>>
>
> Jordan - any thoughts on Digital Ocean?
>
> Aaron - Ubutu, or really I would say Debian for a server unless you know
> you need something else, in which case you would not be asking ;)
>
> for a little write up on why Ubuntu, look at the bottom for "Which Distro?"
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten
>
> --
> Carl K
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From hundredpercentjuice at gmail.com  Fri Dec 16 07:52:31 2016
From: hundredpercentjuice at gmail.com (JS Irick)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 06:52:31 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] free ec2 ? was: Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <03307F62-6B51-47E6-88FE-A8CA9FDE6BDE@analytehealth.com>
References: <CADmzSSiAVJCQa9sQWjjzZXFY_Z-zGjXcvFFod=y6jeNK9zbhUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3654F3FF-2416-4095-86A2-094EBCB80B21@analytehealth.com>
 <CAPrZ9unrtNxbL0FqAtmVBDaKqmf2oXw3+ET4mOQRiTPTySWPfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <03307F62-6B51-47E6-88FE-A8CA9FDE6BDE@analytehealth.com>
Message-ID: <CAKVqkSku0mHhAtddW2P5u8jTEE4=+Pz7GcK3vMqiQJcohq3TdA@mail.gmail.com>

Relevant to our interests: https://github.com/boto/boto3

All our RDS/backup/magic scripts leverage this.

Thanks
JS


On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 7:18 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <chicago at python.org
> wrote:

> Kinda depends on how much AWS koolaid you drink. If all you use is EC2
> just to fire up an Ubuntu instance, and you do your own database
> configuration and such, it?s really not much different than Digital Ocean.
> However, if you start diving into RDS and everything, it can get a little
> trickier to migrate. Also, no? you?re not the only one scratching your head
> on AWS. I?d certainly say that Digital Ocean is a little more
> straightforward to get going on, but as mentioned earlier, AWS is something
> worth learning about.
>
> That said, anything you learn on Digital Ocean will mostly translate
> pretty quickly to AWS.
>
> Again, my $.02
>
> --
> *Vasili (Val) Kolovos*
> Director of Platform Services
>
> *Phone:* 312-477-3025 <//312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
> *Email: *val.kolovos at analytehealth.com
> www.analytehealth.com
>
> 328 S. Jefferson Street
> Suite 770
>
>
>
> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:41 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
> Free AWS is cool too.  It's worth exploring for sure.  Any issues
> migrating between them and digital ocean?
>
> I am sure elastic bean stalk out even a straight up Linux server there
> would be great for almost any web dev.
>
> Unfortunately AWS docs just don't speak to me. I was hoping working with
> an "easier service" might be better to start.
>
> I hope I am not the only one scratching their heads after looking at some
> of the AWS docs.
>
> On Dec 15, 2016 6:24 PM, "Val Kolovos via Chicago" <chicago at python.org>
> wrote:
>
>> https://aws.amazon.com/free/
>>
>> --
>> *Vasili (Val) Kolovos*
>> Director of Platform Services
>>
>> *Phone:* 312-477-3025 <//312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
>> *Email: *val.kolovos at analytehealth.com
>> www.analytehealth.com
>>
>> 328 S. Jefferson Street
>> Suite 770
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:21 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <
>> chicago at python.org> wrote:
>>
>>> EC2 ... free tier
>>
>>
>> wut?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carl K
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>


-- 
====
JS Irick
312-307-8904
Consultant: truqua.com
Coach: atlascrossfit.com
Programmer: juicetux.com
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From prometheus235 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 16 14:49:32 2016
From: prometheus235 at gmail.com (Nick Timkovich)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 13:49:32 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] free ec2 ? was: Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CAKVqkSku0mHhAtddW2P5u8jTEE4=+Pz7GcK3vMqiQJcohq3TdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSiAVJCQa9sQWjjzZXFY_Z-zGjXcvFFod=y6jeNK9zbhUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3654F3FF-2416-4095-86A2-094EBCB80B21@analytehealth.com>
 <CAPrZ9unrtNxbL0FqAtmVBDaKqmf2oXw3+ET4mOQRiTPTySWPfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <03307F62-6B51-47E6-88FE-A8CA9FDE6BDE@analytehealth.com>
 <CAKVqkSku0mHhAtddW2P5u8jTEE4=+Pz7GcK3vMqiQJcohq3TdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkxivdj6QEACARKv0dyMfLxMnprCT5BsvV5o1mYABF_8mVnjg@mail.gmail.com>

DigitalOcean wins on simplicity; AWS is excessively complicated if all you
want to do is fire up an Ubuntu server...

But now AWS has a very similar DO-style service with
https://amazonlightsail.com/. Haven't used it yet, but if it's just as
straightforward as DO with the ability to mix in other AWS services
at-will, seems like a killer combo.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 6:52 AM, JS Irick <hundredpercentjuice at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Relevant to our interests: https://github.com/boto/boto3
>
> All our RDS/backup/magic scripts leverage this.
>
> Thanks
> JS
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 7:18 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <
> chicago at python.org> wrote:
>
>> Kinda depends on how much AWS koolaid you drink. If all you use is EC2
>> just to fire up an Ubuntu instance, and you do your own database
>> configuration and such, it?s really not much different than Digital Ocean.
>> However, if you start diving into RDS and everything, it can get a little
>> trickier to migrate. Also, no? you?re not the only one scratching your head
>> on AWS. I?d certainly say that Digital Ocean is a little more
>> straightforward to get going on, but as mentioned earlier, AWS is something
>> worth learning about.
>>
>> That said, anything you learn on Digital Ocean will mostly translate
>> pretty quickly to AWS.
>>
>> Again, my $.02
>>
>> --
>> *Vasili (Val) Kolovos*
>> Director of Platform Services
>>
>> *Phone:* 312-477-3025 <//312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
>> *Email: *val.kolovos at analytehealth.com
>> www.analytehealth.com
>>
>> 328 S. Jefferson Street
>> Suite 770
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:41 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Free AWS is cool too.  It's worth exploring for sure.  Any issues
>> migrating between them and digital ocean?
>>
>> I am sure elastic bean stalk out even a straight up Linux server there
>> would be great for almost any web dev.
>>
>> Unfortunately AWS docs just don't speak to me. I was hoping working with
>> an "easier service" might be better to start.
>>
>> I hope I am not the only one scratching their heads after looking at some
>> of the AWS docs.
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2016 6:24 PM, "Val Kolovos via Chicago" <chicago at python.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> https://aws.amazon.com/free/
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Vasili (Val) Kolovos*
>>> Director of Platform Services
>>>
>>> *Phone:* 312-477-3025 <//312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
>>> *Email: *val.kolovos at analytehealth.com
>>> www.analytehealth.com
>>>
>>> 328 S. Jefferson Street
>>> Suite 770
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:21 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <
>>> chicago at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> EC2 ... free tier
>>>
>>>
>>> wut?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Carl K
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ====
> JS Irick
> 312-307-8904 <(312)%20307-8904>
> Consultant: truqua.com
> Coach: atlascrossfit.com
> Programmer: juicetux.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Fri Dec 16 17:48:17 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:48:17 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] free ec2 ? was: Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CAHkxivdj6QEACARKv0dyMfLxMnprCT5BsvV5o1mYABF_8mVnjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADmzSSiAVJCQa9sQWjjzZXFY_Z-zGjXcvFFod=y6jeNK9zbhUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3654F3FF-2416-4095-86A2-094EBCB80B21@analytehealth.com>
 <CAPrZ9unrtNxbL0FqAtmVBDaKqmf2oXw3+ET4mOQRiTPTySWPfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <03307F62-6B51-47E6-88FE-A8CA9FDE6BDE@analytehealth.com>
 <CAKVqkSku0mHhAtddW2P5u8jTEE4=+Pz7GcK3vMqiQJcohq3TdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHkxivdj6QEACARKv0dyMfLxMnprCT5BsvV5o1mYABF_8mVnjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9um_7N2y03cN-_1fAXddD3b0PMMaGQjXtnmdCNLEi5jjmA@mail.gmail.com>

Wow.  That is interesting. Thanks.

On Dec 16, 2016 1:52 PM, "Nick Timkovich" <prometheus235 at gmail.com> wrote:

> DigitalOcean wins on simplicity; AWS is excessively complicated if all you
> want to do is fire up an Ubuntu server...
>
> But now AWS has a very similar DO-style service with
> https://amazonlightsail.com/. Haven't used it yet, but if it's just as
> straightforward as DO with the ability to mix in other AWS services
> at-will, seems like a killer combo.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 6:52 AM, JS Irick <hundredpercentjuice at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Relevant to our interests: https://github.com/boto/boto3
>>
>> All our RDS/backup/magic scripts leverage this.
>>
>> Thanks
>> JS
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 7:18 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <
>> chicago at python.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Kinda depends on how much AWS koolaid you drink. If all you use is EC2
>>> just to fire up an Ubuntu instance, and you do your own database
>>> configuration and such, it?s really not much different than Digital Ocean.
>>> However, if you start diving into RDS and everything, it can get a little
>>> trickier to migrate. Also, no? you?re not the only one scratching your head
>>> on AWS. I?d certainly say that Digital Ocean is a little more
>>> straightforward to get going on, but as mentioned earlier, AWS is something
>>> worth learning about.
>>>
>>> That said, anything you learn on Digital Ocean will mostly translate
>>> pretty quickly to AWS.
>>>
>>> Again, my $.02
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Vasili (Val) Kolovos*
>>> Director of Platform Services
>>>
>>> *Phone:* 312-477-3025 <//312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
>>> *Email: *val.kolovos at analytehealth.com
>>> www.analytehealth.com
>>>
>>> 328 S. Jefferson Street
>>> Suite 770
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:41 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Free AWS is cool too.  It's worth exploring for sure.  Any issues
>>> migrating between them and digital ocean?
>>>
>>> I am sure elastic bean stalk out even a straight up Linux server there
>>> would be great for almost any web dev.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately AWS docs just don't speak to me. I was hoping working with
>>> an "easier service" might be better to start.
>>>
>>> I hope I am not the only one scratching their heads after looking at
>>> some of the AWS docs.
>>>
>>> On Dec 15, 2016 6:24 PM, "Val Kolovos via Chicago" <chicago at python.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://aws.amazon.com/free/
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Vasili (Val) Kolovos*
>>>> Director of Platform Services
>>>>
>>>> *Phone:* 312-477-3025 <//312-477-3025> (OFFICE LINE)
>>>> *Email: *val.kolovos at analytehealth.com
>>>> www.analytehealth.com
>>>>
>>>> 328 S. Jefferson Street
>>>> Suite 770
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 15, 2016, at 5:21 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Val Kolovos via Chicago <
>>>> chicago at python.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> EC2 ... free tier
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> wut?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Carl K
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Chicago mailing list
>>>> Chicago at python.org
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ====
>> JS Irick
>> 312-307-8904 <(312)%20307-8904>
>> Consultant: truqua.com
>> Coach: atlascrossfit.com
>> Programmer: juicetux.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Mon Dec 19 10:18:51 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:18:51 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CADQXWrUbFhK-d3USE7c79VqsjETan0jURyFet4j2GnPjBiUoGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
 <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <58534B40.40101@hafd.org>
 <CADQXWrUbFhK-d3USE7c79VqsjETan0jURyFet4j2GnPjBiUoGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9un=kbUyiSt0m9jQXnCOC1EneOJzakJZtcJmo9ZGN=e==g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks again for all your thoughts on virtual hosting.  I spun up my first
Ubuntu droplet on DigitalOcean this weekend.  It was super simple.  Also, a
quick web search for a promo code provided a $15 credit towards the new
account.

I have final question related to this topic.  What web server should I pick
for a flask application that will see little traffic, but be computational
intensive?  I'm guessing Apache just because it has a threaded
architecture, but that's probably too simplistic.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:21 PM, Lane Campbell <lane at strapr.com> wrote:

> I've been using DO for years and had nothing but positive experiences with
> their platform.
>
> It's also easy to learn their dashboard compared to nearly every other
> cloud provider out there.
>
>
> Regards,
> Lane Campbell
> (312) 775-2632
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>
>> The only bad thing I ever heard about DO is apparently at the beginning
>> they weren't zeroing the disk between customers and, when caught, were
>> evasive and defensive. I don't have personal experience with them though
>> and if that was their only "hiccup" it's pretty mild compared to all the
>> things that have gone down at linode.
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2016 03:14 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I would not
>>> recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible security track record.
>>>
>>
>> Jordan - any thoughts on Digital Ocean?
>>
>> Aaron - Ubutu, or really I would say Debian for a server unless you know
>> you need something else, in which case you would not be asking ;)
>>
>> for a little write up on why Ubuntu, look at the bottom for "Which
>> Distro?"
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten
>>
>> --
>> Carl K
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From jordanb at hafd.org  Mon Dec 19 10:29:38 2016
From: jordanb at hafd.org (Jordan Bettis)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:29:38 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9un=kbUyiSt0m9jQXnCOC1EneOJzakJZtcJmo9ZGN=e==g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
 <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <58534B40.40101@hafd.org>
 <CADQXWrUbFhK-d3USE7c79VqsjETan0jURyFet4j2GnPjBiUoGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9un=kbUyiSt0m9jQXnCOC1EneOJzakJZtcJmo9ZGN=e==g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5857FCE2.50403@hafd.org>

Apache will work, but these days the "standard" way to setup a wsgi 
python service is to start nginx and use it as a gateway, then have 
Flask running in a pool of wsgi servers like gunicorn. So your setup 
would look like this:

internet -> nginx (http gateway) port 80/443 -> gunicorn (Flask app) 
listening on a pool of localhost only ports, say 5000-5010.

Nginx then does the load balancing between workers, terminating TLS, 
etc. You can do this with apache too of course, but it's pretty heavy 
for this architecture.

On 12/19/2016 09:18 AM, Aaron Elmquist wrote:
> Thanks again for all your thoughts on virtual hosting.  I spun up my 
> first Ubuntu droplet on DigitalOcean this weekend. It was super 
> simple.  Also, a quick web search for a promo code provided a $15 
> credit towards the new account.
>
> I have final question related to this topic.  What web server should I 
> pick for a flask application that will see little traffic, but be 
> computational intensive?  I'm guessing Apache just because it has a 
> threaded architecture, but that's probably too simplistic.
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:21 PM, Lane Campbell <lane at strapr.com 
> <mailto:lane at strapr.com>> wrote:
>
>     I've been using DO for years and had nothing but positive
>     experiences with their platform.
>
>     It's also easy to learn their dashboard compared to nearly every
>     other cloud provider out there.
>
>
>     Regards,
>     Lane Campbell
>     (312) 775-2632 <tel:%28312%29%20775-2632>
>
>     On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org
>     <mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
>
>         The only bad thing I ever heard about DO is apparently at the
>         beginning they weren't zeroing the disk between customers and,
>         when caught, were evasive and defensive. I don't have personal
>         experience with them though and if that was their only
>         "hiccup" it's pretty mild compared to all the things that have
>         gone down at linode.
>
>
>         On 12/15/2016 03:14 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:
>>
>>         On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Jordan Bettis
>>         <jordanb at hafd.org <mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
>>
>>             I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I
>>             would not
>>             recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible
>>             security track record.
>>
>>
>>         Jordan - any thoughts on Digital Ocean?
>>
>>         Aaron - Ubutu, or really I would say Debian for a server
>>         unless you know you need something else, in which case you
>>         would not be asking ;)
>>
>>         for a little write up on why Ubuntu, look at the bottom for
>>         "Which Distro?"
>>         https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten
>>         <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten>
>>
>>         -- 
>>         Carl K
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Chicago mailing list
>>         Chicago at python.org  <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>         https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago  <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Chicago mailing list
>         Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>         https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>         <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Chicago mailing list
>     Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>     <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Mon Dec 19 10:46:11 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:46:11 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
In-Reply-To: <5857FCE2.50403@hafd.org>
References: <CAPrZ9uk=G9r-6jDM5nRgHge0YWMi746O5iZKwgB9gFsu7GM5Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58530256.3070100@hafd.org>
 <CADmzSSjPwO0JbFwjLnkJoqD499UhzFpQJjmuUZiQ+C_egOv_SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <58534B40.40101@hafd.org>
 <CADQXWrUbFhK-d3USE7c79VqsjETan0jURyFet4j2GnPjBiUoGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9un=kbUyiSt0m9jQXnCOC1EneOJzakJZtcJmo9ZGN=e==g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5857FCE2.50403@hafd.org>
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9umcnawYe0JwPOh8rk=bu7fDKue1yB_qO9eoTr+-Smhn5g@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for point out Nginx -> Gunicorn -> Flask  as the standard.  I see
DigitalOcean has a tutorial on this and I'll start there.  Thanks!

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:29 AM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:

> Apache will work, but these days the "standard" way to setup a wsgi python
> service is to start nginx and use it as a gateway, then have Flask running
> in a pool of wsgi servers like gunicorn. So your setup would look like this:
>
> internet -> nginx (http gateway) port 80/443 -> gunicorn (Flask app)
> listening on a pool of localhost only ports, say 5000-5010.
>
> Nginx then does the load balancing between workers, terminating TLS, etc.
> You can do this with apache too of course, but it's pretty heavy for this
> architecture.
>
>
> On 12/19/2016 09:18 AM, Aaron Elmquist wrote:
>
> Thanks again for all your thoughts on virtual hosting.  I spun up my first
> Ubuntu droplet on DigitalOcean this weekend.  It was super simple.  Also, a
> quick web search for a promo code provided a $15 credit towards the new
> account.
>
> I have final question related to this topic.  What web server should I
> pick for a flask application that will see little traffic, but be
> computational intensive?  I'm guessing Apache just because it has a
> threaded architecture, but that's probably too simplistic.
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:21 PM, Lane Campbell <lane at strapr.com> wrote:
>
>> I've been using DO for years and had nothing but positive experiences
>> with their platform.
>>
>> It's also easy to learn their dashboard compared to nearly every other
>> cloud provider out there.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Lane Campbell
>> (312) 775-2632 <%28312%29%20775-2632>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>
>>> The only bad thing I ever heard about DO is apparently at the beginning
>>> they weren't zeroing the disk between customers and, when caught, were
>>> evasive and defensive. I don't have personal experience with them though
>>> and if that was their only "hiccup" it's pretty mild compared to all the
>>> things that have gone down at linode.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2016 03:14 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm a longtime linode user, slowly transitioning away. I would not
>>>> recommend them. They've had an absolutely horrible security track
>>>> record.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Jordan - any thoughts on Digital Ocean?
>>>
>>> Aaron - Ubutu, or really I would say Debian for a server unless you know
>>> you need something else, in which case you would not be asking ;)
>>>
>>> for a little write up on why Ubuntu, look at the bottom for "Which
>>> Distro?"
>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten
>>>
>>> --
>>> Carl K
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From tanya at tickel.net  Mon Dec 19 22:46:30 2016
From: tanya at tickel.net (Tanya Schlusser)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 21:46:30 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Thoughts on Virtual Hosting
Message-ID: <CA+bo0=Q473CXyNj_y1Uvy=VG72X2esuV2OtEZoY7A8fgrLk6Ow@mail.gmail.com>

Zappa!  Servers are overrated.

https://github.com/Miserlou/Zappa

Zappa uses Amazon Lamda and works with any Python WSGI app. I haven't tried
it yet but it's on my before-2017 list. Friends have said it's everything
they hoped.
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From jdumblauskas at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 14:03:13 2016
From: jdumblauskas at gmail.com (Jerry Dumblauskas)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:03:13 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Lead Data Scientist Role(s)
Message-ID: <CA+G_OOsK4QZxhhn9D3wwZHcdu_Nr80=02zrWqBfDTxX4PKkhyg@mail.gmail.com>

Below is the job description and contact info.

thx

Jerry


*Employer*: Deloitte Consulting LLP
*Role*: Lead Data Scientists
*Description*: Looking for a lead Data Scientists with experience with
Machine Learning like Neural Networks (Convoluted / Recurrent) with
emphasis on Image Recognition to join a great team within Deloitte
Consulting Products and Solutions group. Can be based out of Chicago
however travel 1+ weeks a month is required.
*Skills/Requirement*: Graduate Degree in related field,  Python Experience,
Tenserflow/Karas, Great Communication Skills, Ability to collaborate in a
Consulting Environment.


*All qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without
regard to race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity,
national origin, age, disability or protected veteran status, or any other
legally protected basis, in accordance with applicable law.*

Please send any resumes/CV(s) to:

*Brian Ray*

Cognitive Team Lead | Products & Solutions

Deloitte Consulting LLP

111 S Wacker Drive Chicago, IL 60606

Tel/Direct: +1 312 486 2837 <(312)%20486-2837>

brray at deloitte.com | www.deloitte.com
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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Wed Dec 21 15:07:50 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:07:50 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Digital Ocean, pip, and UFW on Ubuntu
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9ukvCNAmaotXtrUToRQk97CiyQ5QncyNGeTf76BcrWsrBg@mail.gmail.com>

I recently deployed a DigitalOcean droplet with Ubuntu and followed the
documentation to harden the server and get Flask up and running with
Gunicorn and Nginx.

However, after configuring UFW, I found I cannot get pip to work without
disabling the firewall.  I tried allowing port 3128 for pip, but that has
not resolved my issue.

I'm hoping someone on the list has encountered this issue before and found
a fix.

Thanks,

Aaron
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From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Dec 21 15:38:56 2016
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:38:56 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Digital Ocean, pip, and UFW on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9ukvCNAmaotXtrUToRQk97CiyQ5QncyNGeTf76BcrWsrBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9ukvCNAmaotXtrUToRQk97CiyQ5QncyNGeTf76BcrWsrBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSjTuu6wLzSDYvygvMLQfZY1pOwNx5zCuwmfrMwSS9RU+A@mail.gmail.com>

There are lots of reasons for why pip fails.  we can guess, but that's
generally a bad idea.

cut/paste the command and *all* of the output.

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:

> I recently deployed a DigitalOcean droplet with Ubuntu and followed the
> documentation to harden the server and get Flask up and running with
> Gunicorn and Nginx.
>
> However, after configuring UFW, I found I cannot get pip to work without
> disabling the firewall.  I tried allowing port 3128 for pip, but that has
> not resolved my issue.
>
> I'm hoping someone on the list has encountered this issue before and found
> a fix.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aaron
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>


-- 
Carl K
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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Wed Dec 21 16:09:09 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 15:09:09 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Digital Ocean, pip, and UFW on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSjTuu6wLzSDYvygvMLQfZY1pOwNx5zCuwmfrMwSS9RU+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9ukvCNAmaotXtrUToRQk97CiyQ5QncyNGeTf76BcrWsrBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjTuu6wLzSDYvygvMLQfZY1pOwNx5zCuwmfrMwSS9RU+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9unTRhe+oEyRsthhMFwPqtnK80zrQgCRRWaqCC4iWBpwjA@mail.gmail.com>

Sure thing.

pip install requests

Retrying (Retry(total=4, connect=None, read=None, redirect=None)) after
connection broken by
'NewConnectionError('<pip._vendor.requests.packages.urllib3.connection.VerifiedHTTPSConnection
object at 0x7f01a85fa390>: Failed to establish a new connection: [Errno -3]
Temporary failure in name resolution',)': /simple/requests/

This repeats 4 more times.  I see 5 times is the default in the docs.

Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement requests (from
versions: )
No matching distribution found for requests

By the way temporarily disabling the firewall resolves this.

sudo ufw disable

Collecting requests
Downloading requests-2.12.4-py2.py3-none-any.whl (576kB)
    100% |????????????????????????????????| 583kB 1.0MB/s
Installing collected packages: requests
Successfully installed requests-2.12.4

sudo ufw enable

Toggling the firewall is probably bad.

Output from  sudo ufw status:

To                         Action      From
--                         ------      ----
22                         ALLOW       Anywhere
80/tcp                     ALLOW       Anywhere
21/tcp                     ALLOW       Anywhere
OpenSSH                    ALLOW       Anywhere
Nginx Full                 ALLOW       Anywhere
3128/tcp                   ALLOW       Anywhere
3128                       ALLOW       Anywhere

22 (v6)                    ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
80/tcp (v6)                ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
21/tcp (v6)                ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
OpenSSH (v6)               ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
Nginx Full (v6)            ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
3128/tcp (v6)              ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
3128 (v6)                  ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)

Thanks for the help.

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
wrote:

> There are lots of reasons for why pip fails.  we can guess, but that's
> generally a bad idea.
>
> cut/paste the command and *all* of the output.
>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
>> I recently deployed a DigitalOcean droplet with Ubuntu and followed the
>> documentation to harden the server and get Flask up and running with
>> Gunicorn and Nginx.
>>
>> However, after configuring UFW, I found I cannot get pip to work without
>> disabling the firewall.  I tried allowing port 3128 for pip, but that
>> has not resolved my issue.
>>
>> I'm hoping someone on the list has encountered this issue before and
>> found a fix.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Carl K
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From don at drakeconsulting.com  Wed Dec 21 16:15:47 2016
From: don at drakeconsulting.com (Don Drake)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 15:15:47 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Digital Ocean, pip, and UFW on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9unTRhe+oEyRsthhMFwPqtnK80zrQgCRRWaqCC4iWBpwjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9ukvCNAmaotXtrUToRQk97CiyQ5QncyNGeTf76BcrWsrBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjTuu6wLzSDYvygvMLQfZY1pOwNx5zCuwmfrMwSS9RU+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9unTRhe+oEyRsthhMFwPqtnK80zrQgCRRWaqCC4iWBpwjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B3E80718-FA87-480B-86CB-00E950070B35@drakeconsulting.com>

Failure in name resolution means DNS is not getting through.  Open up port 53 tcp/udp.

-Don

--
Don Drake
http://www.drakeconsulting.com/
312-560-1574
800-733-2143

> On Dec 21, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
> 
> Sure thing.  
> 
> pip install requests 
> 
> Retrying (Retry(total=4, connect=None, read=None, redirect=None)) after connection broken by 'NewConnectionError('<pip._vendor.requests.packages.urllib3.connection.VerifiedHTTPSConnection object at 0x7f01a85fa390>: Failed to establish a new connection: [Errno -3] Temporary failure in name resolution',)': /simple/requests/
> 
> This repeats 4 more times.  I see 5 times is the default in the docs.  
> 
> Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement requests (from versions: )
> No matching distribution found for requests
> 
> By the way temporarily disabling the firewall resolves this.  
> 
> sudo ufw disable
> 
> Collecting requests
> Downloading requests-2.12.4-py2.py3-none-any.whl (576kB)
>     100% |????????????????????????????????| 583kB 1.0MB/s
> Installing collected packages: requests
> Successfully installed requests-2.12.4
> 
> sudo ufw enable
> 
> Toggling the firewall is probably bad.  
> 
> Output from  sudo ufw status:
> 
> To                         Action      From
> --                         ------      ----
> 22                         ALLOW       Anywhere
> 80/tcp                     ALLOW       Anywhere
> 21/tcp                     ALLOW       Anywhere
> OpenSSH                    ALLOW       Anywhere
> Nginx Full                 ALLOW       Anywhere
> 3128/tcp                   ALLOW       Anywhere
> 3128                       ALLOW       Anywhere
> 
> 22 (v6)                    ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
> 80/tcp (v6)                ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
> 21/tcp (v6)                ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
> OpenSSH (v6)               ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
> Nginx Full (v6)            ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
> 3128/tcp (v6)              ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
> 3128 (v6)                  ALLOW       Anywhere (v6)
> 
> Thanks for the help.  
> 
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com <mailto:carl at personnelware.com>> wrote:
> There are lots of reasons for why pip fails.  we can guess, but that's generally a bad idea.
> 
> cut/paste the command and *all* of the output.
> 
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu <mailto:elmq0022 at umn.edu>> wrote:
> I recently deployed a DigitalOcean droplet with Ubuntu and followed the documentation to harden the server and get Flask up and running with Gunicorn and Nginx.  
> 
> However, after configuring UFW, I found I cannot get pip to work without disabling the firewall.  I tried allowing port 3128 for pip, but that has not resolved my issue.  
> 
> I'm hoping someone on the list has encountered this issue before and found a fix.  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Aaron
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Carl K
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Dec 21 16:17:38 2016
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 15:17:38 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Digital Ocean, pip, and UFW on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9unTRhe+oEyRsthhMFwPqtnK80zrQgCRRWaqCC4iWBpwjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9ukvCNAmaotXtrUToRQk97CiyQ5QncyNGeTf76BcrWsrBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjTuu6wLzSDYvygvMLQfZY1pOwNx5zCuwmfrMwSS9RU+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9unTRhe+oEyRsthhMFwPqtnK80zrQgCRRWaqCC4iWBpwjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADmzSShzrnDfZmXzhLy2ZaDWmRGzxiMrPE=XV_egtyG=eOaqoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:

> Temporary failure in name resolution


-v should show you what it is trying to resolve:


(test3)carl at twist:~$ pip install requestsx -v
Collecting requestsx
  1 location(s) to search for versions of requestsx:
  * https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/
  Getting page https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/
  Looking up "https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/" in the cache
  No cache entry available
  Starting new HTTPS connection (1): pypi.python.org
...

Try using the host command to look it up, see if it errors:

(test3)carl at twist:~$ host pypi.python.org
pypi.python.org is an alias for prod.python.map.fastly.net.
prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.64.223
prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.128.223
prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.192.223
prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.0.223
prod.python.map.fastly.net has IPv6 address 2a04:4e42:b::223




-- 
Carl K
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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Wed Dec 21 16:57:48 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 15:57:48 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Digital Ocean, pip, and UFW on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSShzrnDfZmXzhLy2ZaDWmRGzxiMrPE=XV_egtyG=eOaqoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9ukvCNAmaotXtrUToRQk97CiyQ5QncyNGeTf76BcrWsrBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjTuu6wLzSDYvygvMLQfZY1pOwNx5zCuwmfrMwSS9RU+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9unTRhe+oEyRsthhMFwPqtnK80zrQgCRRWaqCC4iWBpwjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSShzrnDfZmXzhLy2ZaDWmRGzxiMrPE=XV_egtyG=eOaqoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9umuPmCifm0HLEskEz+L1p9kAC31hYGd8neBHBdD+JuTKg@mail.gmail.com>

Okay

sudo ufw allow 53
sudo ufw allow in 53

resolves the DNS issue (the host command still works).

sudo ufw allow https
sudo ufw allow out https

fixes the pip's https connection to pypi,* but is that not secure*?  Should
I just specify the pypi server directly instead?

Again thanks for the replies.  They are very much appreciated.

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
wrote:

>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
>> Temporary failure in name resolution
>
>
> -v should show you what it is trying to resolve:
>
>
> (test3)carl at twist:~$ pip install requestsx -v
> Collecting requestsx
>   1 location(s) to search for versions of requestsx:
>   * https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/
>   Getting page https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/
>   Looking up "https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/" in the cache
>   No cache entry available
>   Starting new HTTPS connection (1): pypi.python.org
> ...
>
> Try using the host command to look it up, see if it errors:
>
> (test3)carl at twist:~$ host pypi.python.org
> pypi.python.org is an alias for prod.python.map.fastly.net.
> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.64.223
> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.128.223
> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.192.223
> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.0.223
> prod.python.map.fastly.net has IPv6 address 2a04:4e42:b::223
>
>
>
>
> --
> Carl K
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Dec 21 17:40:35 2016
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:40:35 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Digital Ocean, pip, and UFW on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CAPrZ9umuPmCifm0HLEskEz+L1p9kAC31hYGd8neBHBdD+JuTKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9ukvCNAmaotXtrUToRQk97CiyQ5QncyNGeTf76BcrWsrBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjTuu6wLzSDYvygvMLQfZY1pOwNx5zCuwmfrMwSS9RU+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9unTRhe+oEyRsthhMFwPqtnK80zrQgCRRWaqCC4iWBpwjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSShzrnDfZmXzhLy2ZaDWmRGzxiMrPE=XV_egtyG=eOaqoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9umuPmCifm0HLEskEz+L1p9kAC31hYGd8neBHBdD+JuTKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADmzSSiw1y=Ocy7TjZTrmddmxGc_XYvnkM_mG5q=v3ENYS_Q-g@mail.gmail.com>

Deployment and Security are very ... interesting topics.

There are tradeoffs.   Here are some questions that only you can answer and
will drive how you do things.

How much time/effort/resources do you want to put into this?
What is the cost of failure?
What do you consider fun?
What do you consider an investment in your future?

Do you want to spent your time learning about security or more Python?



On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:

> Okay
>
> sudo ufw allow 53
> sudo ufw allow in 53
>
> resolves the DNS issue (the host command still works).
>
> sudo ufw allow https
> sudo ufw allow out https
>
> fixes the pip's https connection to pypi,* but is that not secure*?
> Should I just specify the pypi server directly instead?
>
> Again thanks for the replies.  They are very much appreciated.
>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Temporary failure in name resolution
>>
>>
>> -v should show you what it is trying to resolve:
>>
>>
>> (test3)carl at twist:~$ pip install requestsx -v
>> Collecting requestsx
>>   1 location(s) to search for versions of requestsx:
>>   * https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/
>>   Getting page https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/
>>   Looking up "https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/" in the cache
>>   No cache entry available
>>   Starting new HTTPS connection (1): pypi.python.org
>> ...
>>
>> Try using the host command to look it up, see if it errors:
>>
>> (test3)carl at twist:~$ host pypi.python.org
>> pypi.python.org is an alias for prod.python.map.fastly.net.
>> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.64.223
>> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.128.223
>> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.192.223
>> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.0.223
>> prod.python.map.fastly.net has IPv6 address 2a04:4e42:b::223
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carl K
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>


-- 
Carl K
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From elmq0022 at umn.edu  Wed Dec 21 18:11:51 2016
From: elmq0022 at umn.edu (Aaron Elmquist)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 17:11:51 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Digital Ocean, pip, and UFW on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSSiw1y=Ocy7TjZTrmddmxGc_XYvnkM_mG5q=v3ENYS_Q-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPrZ9ukvCNAmaotXtrUToRQk97CiyQ5QncyNGeTf76BcrWsrBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSjTuu6wLzSDYvygvMLQfZY1pOwNx5zCuwmfrMwSS9RU+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9unTRhe+oEyRsthhMFwPqtnK80zrQgCRRWaqCC4iWBpwjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSShzrnDfZmXzhLy2ZaDWmRGzxiMrPE=XV_egtyG=eOaqoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPrZ9umuPmCifm0HLEskEz+L1p9kAC31hYGd8neBHBdD+JuTKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADmzSSiw1y=Ocy7TjZTrmddmxGc_XYvnkM_mG5q=v3ENYS_Q-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPrZ9u=Nr6VW8pDPPQbCCLVnDBnTUErKViAztuqcmVZAh57Q8w@mail.gmail.com>

Good points Carl.  I get your drift.

My server is for learning and should be low visibility.  I won't keep
sensitive information on it either.  Provided I backup everything, losing
the server is just inconvenient.

I will move on to learning Flask and table additional admin stuff until I
need it.

Thanks for the sound advice!

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 4:40 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
wrote:

> Deployment and Security are very ... interesting topics.
>
> There are tradeoffs.   Here are some questions that only you can answer
> and will drive how you do things.
>
> How much time/effort/resources do you want to put into this?
> What is the cost of failure?
> What do you consider fun?
> What do you consider an investment in your future?
>
> Do you want to spent your time learning about security or more Python?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
>> Okay
>>
>> sudo ufw allow 53
>> sudo ufw allow in 53
>>
>> resolves the DNS issue (the host command still works).
>>
>> sudo ufw allow https
>> sudo ufw allow out https
>>
>> fixes the pip's https connection to pypi,* but is that not secure*?
>> Should I just specify the pypi server directly instead?
>>
>> Again thanks for the replies.  They are very much appreciated.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Temporary failure in name resolution
>>>
>>>
>>> -v should show you what it is trying to resolve:
>>>
>>>
>>> (test3)carl at twist:~$ pip install requestsx -v
>>> Collecting requestsx
>>>   1 location(s) to search for versions of requestsx:
>>>   * https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/
>>>   Getting page https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/
>>>   Looking up "https://pypi.python.org/simple/requestsx/" in the cache
>>>   No cache entry available
>>>   Starting new HTTPS connection (1): pypi.python.org
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Try using the host command to look it up, see if it errors:
>>>
>>> (test3)carl at twist:~$ host pypi.python.org
>>> pypi.python.org is an alias for prod.python.map.fastly.net.
>>> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.64.223
>>> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.128.223
>>> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.192.223
>>> prod.python.map.fastly.net has address 151.101.0.223
>>> prod.python.map.fastly.net has IPv6 address 2a04:4e42:b::223
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Carl K
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Carl K
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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