[Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
Carl Karsten
carl at personnelware.com
Sat Dec 3 13:50:28 EST 2016
I am curious... (and know nothing about Java other than I don't really want
to invest much time leaning about Java)
Are there best practice or conventions or norms or something that are good
for Java but not other languages? if so, Why?
And this may be the point of this thread, but seems like it is a given and
you are looking for a formal de-programming of someone that has been
brainwashed.
On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 1:35 AM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com> wrote:
> All of the answers have been great, thank you.
>
> I'm quite familiar with all of Raymond Hettinger's talks, as well as
> Jack's talk, and Fluent Python. Those are my go-to sources for this. They
> address the issue, but somewhat indirectly. T summarized it best. I was
> hoping for a more targeted comparison addressing Java specifically;
> something like this, bit with much more depth (he didn't even touch on
> getters/setters) -- https://antrix.net/static/
> pages/python-for-java/online/.
>
> The Module Of The Week and standard library references are even good for
> Python devs. I often forget how much is in there.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jason Wirth
> wirth.jason at gmail.com
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Aaron Elmquist <elmq0022 at umn.edu> wrote:
>
>> I will second the Fluent Python book. I have it and think it's great.
>> He makes great use of the built-in data structures and the standard library
>> on general.
>>
>> On Dec 2, 2016 5:59 PM, "Tanya Schlusser" <tanya at tickel.net> wrote:
>>
>>> For the Java-to-Python, Luciano Ramalho's Fluent Python (
>>> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032519.do) specifically was
>>> written for émigrés from other languages :-) and apparently knocks it out
>>> of the park.
>>>
>>>
>>> For the Python-to-Java; implementing the same thing in different
>>> languages/APIs was a job requirement for me ... we tested ideas in Python,
>>> then the junior people (me...) had to translate to a different language for
>>> production...it was a fast way to bypass conceptual questions and cut
>>> straight to the differences between languages.
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe try converting a Hadoop streaming job using Python to Java?
>>> Here's a Python entry point (this is for the old API but the newer docs
>>> are confusing to me): http://docs.aws.amazon.com/Ela
>>> sticMapReduce/latest/DeveloperGuide/UseCase_Streaming.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:00 AM, <chicago-request at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Send Chicago mailing list submissions to
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>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Teaching Java people Python. (Jason Wirth)
>>>> 2. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Jordan Bettis)
>>>> 3. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Tathagata Dasgupta)
>>>> 4. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Carl Karsten)
>>>> 5. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Randy Baxley)
>>>> 6. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Michael Tamillow)
>>>> 7. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Allan LeSage)
>>>> 8. Re: Teaching Java people Python. (Chris Foresman)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:14:15 +0000
>>>> From: Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <CAEwvNMibfucHo3hehdyK1DF6BqNCg-MFSF59oNEe++OEFX9_GQ at mail.gm
>>>> ail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> specific
>>>> go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>>>> basic
>>>> programming concepts.
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 18:20:59 -0600
>>>> From: Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org>
>>>> To: chicago at python.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID: <5840BE6B.3070705 at hafd.org>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>>>>
>>>> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>>> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>>>
>>>> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython if
>>>> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>>
>>>> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> > specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting
>>>> > time on basic programming concepts.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 00:43:33 +0000
>>>> From: Tathagata Dasgupta <tathagatadg at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <CAB32_MNv+dc-9udnaHQgqX2YvuK3gH7Q-+CWgrj5RODyXSPJiw at mail.gm
>>>> ail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>>> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>>> We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>>> Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>>>> <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>>> would
>>>> you recommend?
>>>> I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>>> language
>>>> of design patterns could work.
>>>> Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>>>> Python design patterns.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>>> > waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>>> >
>>>> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>>> if
>>>> > you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> specific
>>>> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>>>> basic
>>>> > programming concepts.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>>>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:02:30 -0600
>>>> From: Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <CADmzSSih3_V38EOXfw4vH9Ei0Wb2L+oLMpU-UY0mYwyNZk2S8Q at mail.gm
>>>> ail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> "Using Ripley and Python's Read Evaluate Print Loop, lead a group though
>>>> the basic Python syntax. The assumption is they know about programming
>>>> and
>>>> need to be introduced to Python." - https://github.com/CarlFK/Ripley/
>>>>
>>>> > addresses the differences
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if that is really a good use of time. That sounds to me like
>>>> "forget what you have learned over the last 5 years" which is going to
>>>> be
>>>> really hard.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect time is better used just teaching good python.
>>>>
>>>> But I should leave this to someone who has studied how to teach.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
>>>> tathagatadg at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>>> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>>>> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>>>> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>>> > would you recommend?
>>>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>>> language
>>>> > of design patterns could work.
>>>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>>>> > Python design patterns.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>>> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>>> if
>>>> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without
>>>> wasting time
>>>> >> on basic programming concepts.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>>>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>>> >> Chicago at python.org
>>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Carl K
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:20:58 -0600
>>>> From: Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <CAMqL=ihSgv8XHC_FHnrGFtCPfchhP5OKYX_ba0R2H=VEtfOiaw at mail.gm
>>>> ail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
>>>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public
>>>> -data-hacking.html
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> specific
>>>> > go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time on
>>>> basic
>>>> > programming concepts.
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>>> 01/7900ad7f/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 6
>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 23:38:15 -0600
>>>> From: Michael Tamillow <mikaeltamillow96 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID: <E713DA93-27CD-4EEA-82C4-2A45E6B6241F at gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> Just on the topic of learning new things, I think it is a good idea to
>>>> follow the same paths as people who are already doing it - skip forward
>>>> when things are too easy, and step back when things become difficult to
>>>> comprehend.
>>>>
>>>> But I would say the best way to make a jump like that is to just read
>>>> source code. Ask questions about the source code through google. There are
>>>> tons of mature packages already with anaconda, just bust one open and try
>>>> to understand it.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> > On Dec 1, 2016, at 7:20 PM, Randy Baxley <randy7771026 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Beazley's 2013 Pycon talk might be a good jump start
>>>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2013/learn-python-through-public
>>>> -data-hacking.html
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Jason Wirth <wirth.jason at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without wasting time
>>>> on basic programming concepts.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>>> >> Chicago at python.org
>>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>>> 01/4d516791/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 7
>>>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:12:14 -0600
>>>> From: Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <CACrkd54vU4xJXjgcUwv-Vdwu_GA3XYJMxEM1MR3yKxMGwutiPg at mail.gm
>>>> ail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes
>>>> <http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk
>>>> really
>>>> emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come from
>>>> more
>>>> verbose langs.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
>>>> tathagatadg at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>>> > (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk
>>>> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this
>>>> > <http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>>> > would you recommend?
>>>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>>> language
>>>> > of design patterns could work.
>>>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg> on
>>>> > Python design patterns.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> The tutorial on python.org is a reasonably good intro and it doesn't
>>>> >> waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if statement is:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>>> if
>>>> >> you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer wants to learn Python. Is there a
>>>> >> specific go-to resource that addresses the differences without
>>>> wasting time
>>>> >> on basic programming concepts.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing listChicago at python.orghttps://
>>>> mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>>> >> Chicago at python.org
>>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/201612
>>>> 02/5eeec018/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 8
>>>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 09:42:16 -0600
>>>> From: Chris Foresman <foresmac at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Teaching Java people Python.
>>>> Message-ID: <2A938CBA-8BF3-47C2-9120-8C1742EA0D08 at gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> What would you recommend for Python devs that need to learn Java
>>>> (besides applying for a different job :P )?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris Foresman
>>>> foresmac at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Dec 2, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Allan LeSage <allanlesage at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Concerning Java smells, this Stop Writing Classes <
>>>> http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2012/stop-writing-classes.html> talk
>>>> really emphasizes the clarity and simplicity of Python for devs who come
>>>> from more verbose langs.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Tathagata Dasgupta <
>>>> tathagatadg at gmail.com <mailto:tathagatadg at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> > I think Jason is talking about people who write Python that smell
>>>> (terribly) of Java (version < 8).
>>>> > We happen to know quite a few who do this ;)
>>>> > Other than Raymond Hettinger's famous pycon 2013 talk <
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSGv2VnC0go>, this <
>>>> http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html> article, what
>>>> would you recommend?
>>>> > I think talking to some of these seasoned Java developers in the
>>>> language of design patterns could work.
>>>> > Alex Martelli's talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg>
>>>> on Python design patterns.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM Jordan Bettis <jordanb at hafd.org
>>>> <mailto:jordanb at hafd.org>> wrote:
>>>> > The tutorial on python.org <http://python.org/> is a reasonably good
>>>> intro and it doesn't waste a lot of time trying to explain what an if
>>>> statement is:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements <
>>>> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#if-statements>
>>>> >
>>>> > Python has an interactive shell but I'd recommend installing ipython
>>>> if you want to use it to work through the examples.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 12/01/2016 06:14 PM, Jason Wirth wrote:
>>>> >> Say a hard-core Java programmer
>>>> >> wants to learn Python. Is there a specific go-to resource
>>>> that
>>>> >> addresses the differences without wasting time on basic
>>>> >> programming concepts.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Chicago mailing list
>>>> >> Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org <mailto:Chicago at python.org>
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago <
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Chicago mailing list
>>>> > Chicago at python.org
>>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>>
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>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>
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>>>> Chicago mailing list
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>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> End of Chicago Digest, Vol 136, Issue 2
>>>> ***************************************
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
--
Carl K
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